i am sorry i cant highlight this in blue with my old mac 650 ..
BUT
this is my website log this in ..
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/masstransitcommentary
... or if you like send me an E mail
& i will gladly send you a link!!
let me know what you think thanx.. salaamallah..
thanx is spelled with a ""x"
Salaam;
I visited your website and it looks like you have a good beginning. You should post a link back to this site.
GOOD LUCK!!
Tom
Is it a crime to board a NYC Subway Car
with a camcorder in hand?
Moreover, is it a crime to have camcorder
pegged to a railfan/railside window
or pointed at the interior of the
subway car while in recording mode???
Without a photo permit, yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Is it a crime to board a NYC Subway Car
with a camcorder in hand?
Moreover, is it a crime to have camcorder
pegged to a railfan/railside window
or pointed at the interior of the
subway car while in recording mode???]
Subtalk's neverending question arises yet again :-) As has been discussed many times, photography on the subway is legal as long as you don't use tripods or artificial lighting. That would cover use of camcorders as well as still cameras. As far as pointing the camcorder at the interior of the car is concerned, well, it might be legal, but it doesn't sound like such a good idea - other riders might not take kindly to it.
Notices from the Transit Museum for the recent Nostalgia Trains had the policy summarized. Use of camcorders is legal but tripods and ancillary equipment (for instance, external lighting) are not allowed on any of NYC Transit's facilities (unless you have a photo / press permit).
--Mark
Good to know!
As a public service Yahoo is offering this quick quiz on netiquette.
NETIQUETTE QUIZ
avoid the wrath of the subtalk net police.8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Great, but it seems they left out the most important thing-don't use all caps!
-Hank
It's not covered in the quiz but, it is in the tips section.
Peace,
ANDEE
I noticed from my last joyride on the Train, I saw a sign on the 3 that said lights off, underneath the signal. What does this sign mean?
It tells the T/O when he can turn off the inyterior lights (all cars are out of the tunnel). Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
It tells the T/O when he can turn off the interior lights (all cars are out of the tunnel). Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
Lights Off
That tells the Train Operator to put the car body lights off which is done on sunny days above ground. If its dark outside the lights stay on.
Lights ON
That sign is before the tunnel reminding T/O'S to turn the car body lights on.
(Lights ON
That sign is before the tunnel reminding T/O'S to turn the car body lights on. )
Maybe a sign is needed at Brooklyn Bridge to remind T/O's that they need to change the bulkhead destination signs. Quite a few 'forget' to do it. When I see it, I try to nicely tell the T/O and the usual response is "I'll change it later".
Offer to change it yourself!
Yeah !!!!!
They need one of those "Lights On" signs at the 45th Road stop on the 7 line, towards Manhattan. A couple of times, the lights were off all the way to Vernon-Jackson.
I was on one car on the C line that had all its lights off. It is good for railfan window viewing!
I just found a really old copy of Trains magazine under my bed. It was the September 97 issue. It was talking about the DE30's before they entered service. It showed a picture of 400 in schenectady LI. However, the first DE30 I ever saw was 421 over Archer avenue on its way to Jamaica station.
whatever happened to 400?
You haven't seen 400 yet.
-Hank
It's still around. BTW, anyone notice how the earlier DE30s have slightly different locations for the fuel cutoff button. Thought it was weird having it next to the LED readout on some, below on others.
Good morning,people! Has there been any progress on my ''most favoritist''happy happy joy joy project? There ARE answers out there, we just need to find them. WITH me as Your HIGH EXALTED MYSTIC RULER,and you as my loving subjucts[HA!YEAH,RIGHT,SURFS MINIONSWHATEVER],I know I can count on you guys to fill me in or better yet,keep me posted[along with any bribes,kickbacks gifts and not any thing less than the best] Overall I love you guys to death[huh...?]and i have nothing but fond thoughts for all here on this board[what...?]so we shall bid you a fine adue[adu..? what the....are u talkin about? GEOUTTAHEAH]!!! the ruby visor couldnt hold back the optic blast any longer, and the professer,turned, just in time, to avoid being blasted to paste.'' Im sorry'' Cyclops screamed!!! Xavier,shaken but not hurt looked at the young neo-mutant......
Salaam, is that you?
If it is, he's history, thanks to Dave's No Posting under two names at the same time rule. Borg and Marty were the same person, and Borg is gone. That rule was prominently posted by Dave in that thread. It's also stated on the apply for a password page.
My first impression was that it was Jersey Mike on bad acid.
Couldn't be. Redbird, R-142 bad, railfan window, and vidieo were not in the post.
You forgot to mention, styrofoam, S for scrap, transverse car club and windows don't open Oh, and PROJECT REDBIRD...(thank you).... 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Keep your computer off before smoking that herb. It will prevent accidents like this from happening :)
Greetings from a former NYCer in DC. I've been lurking on here for a few months and thought I'd finally come out of the woodwork with a question.
At the Grand Av station on the Queens Blvd line, there's the rather odd conglomeration of "curtains" and lateral cross-beams between the support beams in the trackways. Was the station constructed that way, or was this added later because of a structural flaw?
Does anyone know?
The station turns under Queens Blvd at that point. The structural work is to support the street above. I think it was part of the origial construction.
The turn onto Queens Boulevard occurs just at the east end of the Grand Avenue/Newtown station. Actually, the subway proper does NOT follow the curve in Broadway exactly, it goes just to the east of it then turns under Queens Boulevard. It's underneath occupied structures on the north side of Broadway, hence the FDNY code requires that I-beams and support columns beneath structures be clad in fireproof materials, i.e. tile or concrete.
The east entrance is at 54th Avenue and Queens Boulevard, just east of the junction with Broadway. The station was built that way.
wayne
I thought I had seen them all, but apparently not as I just got my hands on a new one:
- Night High School - Student Transportation (green, #05-30-1128)
Other known Student cards:
- Grades 7-12 (green, Free)
- Grades K-12 (green, 1/2 fare)
- Good for Two Trips (green, class trip)
- Grades K-6 (Orange, 1/2 fare)
Mr t__:^)
You made a mistake in the list. It's actually...
Full Fare
---------
K-6 (Orange)
7-12 (Green)
Half Fare
---------
K-12 (Green)
I went to The Bay Academy I.S. 98 in Brooklyn. I lived 11 blocks away. The rule for the K-6 group is that you need to live at least 1/2 mile away to get a full fare card. The 7-12 is that you have to live 1 mile away to get a full fare card. All other kids can get a 1/2 fare upon request. You can't take the subway with a 1/2 fare card. Apparently 11 blocks isn't 1/2 mile so I always got a 1/2 fare card. Not good for railfanning. One day I went across the bridge behind my school (it crossed over the Belt Parkway) and bought a Single Ride ticket from the MVM. I saw that kids just like me that didn't live far enough were going into the gates 2 at a time on 1 full fare Metrocard. Hmm... unfortunately I couldn't cough up $1.50 for the entire school year (180 days) and had to participate in uh... fare beating. Shh!!! But, this fall I'm attending Brooklyn Tech and I'm definately more than 1 mile away so I can railfan all I want for free... YEAH!!! BTW, Thurston, where'd you get a Night High School MetroCard? Of course only after school or I'll get a summons. You seem much older than a High School Student on Transit Transit. :-)
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections, Student MC horror stories, and confession.
My story was more interesting.
I had a 1/2 fare card because I lived less than 1.5 miles from my school AS THE CROW FLIES. The street grid showed differently, yet the computer didn't care about that. I was probably going to get a new one from the teacher responsible for passes, but the assistant principal interfered.
At that time, the pass for Command (they had separate passes) was only full fare, to make it half fare they would stamp .60 on the card and cross out Full Fare with magic marker.
I knew people had art on their passes and that didn't stop drivers from accepting them, so I did the exact same thing. I blackened out the .60, integrated it with the crossed out full fare and made a nice little design there. I had to do this every month.
Most of the time, the drivers didn't care at all about full and half fare and just let everyone on for free. Sometimes, they were meticulous about that. I rode the bus twice a day, every day from early September 1995 to late June 1996 and I NEVER had to pay a fare.
I once recounted my many stories of subway pass abuse (breaking the rules is morally right when the rules are flawed) and how it was awful always having to wait in line for the agent to do the buzzing. This wasn't a problem with Chambers Street 1/2/3/9, my school station, where there were cops posted at the gate to allow quick entry.
Finally, this May I reported my Metrocard stolen so I could get a brand new one. This way, the last pass I ever have would not be worn from 5 months of use when it came time to add it to my collection.
I forgot to mention that for the last year of passes (1996-97) Command switched to a separate design for it's half fare cards, which is just when I had a full one again. I was lucky that I wasn't born in 1983.
brooklyn tech? you seem to be proud of that. if your just starting it, i suggest you try to get out quickly.
Yeah, and head to Transit Tech!!!
That's the...
running on...
's
school transfer plan.
[Thurston, where'd you get a Night High School ... You seem much older
than a High School Student on Transit Transit. :-)]
I'm soooooo old that I could be you father :^)
The card in question expired in June & was left on one of our buses yesterday AM. About noon when walking thru the yard I found it.
BTW, about noon when 1/2 the fleet is back I only come up with a 1/2 dozen or less MCs.
Mr t
What makes the card different apart from the markings?
The full fare cards can be used on the subway and bus 100% free of charge. The 1/2 fare card can only be used on buses. You dip the car into the box and then deposit coins in the value of $.75 without pennies.
That's the...
running on...
's
explanations.
I wasn't talking about those, it's obvious I know that much. I was talking about the night school card.
In that case, I guess it would be the hours that the cards will work.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
I know, but I want to know what the hours are!
The card says:
Valid Hours
Mon - Thurs - 1:00 PM - 1:00 AM
Sunday 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM
and clearly says "Night High School"
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday in an effort to kill time I bought an 85 cent ticket at 12/13th and rode the train all the way to lindenwold and then back to 15/16 because i knew that one could not exit at the same station. Well I got off at 15/16th and I went to exit and the turnstyle would not accept my ticket. After a few tried I decided to jump it and keep the ticket. What gives here?
If you want to kill some time today, take the BSS to Pattison and walk east a few blocks to see the UP E9's.
For ticket purposes 12/13 and 15/16 are considered the same station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In part 14 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Questions About the Subway I will examine 3rd rail covers. Back in the day all 3rd rail covers wer made of creasoted wood. They lasted a long time and from what I saw worders on the BSL do yesterday, they are able to be stood upon. Recently, many moden transit agencies have used metal (thin Aluminum) covers. These include WAMTA and the SEPTA route 100. i also suspect that they can be troden upon. However within the past 5 years PATCo has replaced most of its wooden covers with plastic ones. I do not know if you can stand on them and the plastic is white and painted orange at turnouts where a flange is attached to the 3rd rail. i was wondering if the NYC subway is converting to a man made material for its 3rd rail covers? Same question goes for the LIAR and SIRT.
(In part 14 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Questions About the Subway)
Wasn't part 14 twenty questions ago?
This is the 14th Pointless Question About the Subway. It is #14 since I started numbering them and it dosen't include responces, pointless questions aboot railfans, observations, questions aboot railroads or satire.
The abandoned LIRR Rockaway Branch still has wooden covers, and where they haven't rotted through they are strong enough to stand on. The metal ones on the LIRR can be stood upon, but they bend.
The wooden covers are strong and have not rotted because they have been treated with creosote which preserves them. The new aluminum and PVC coverboards are lightweight and durable, but not as strong.
-Daniel
I know that every car starting with the Low-V uses a 32V circuit to control the train's 600V functions, but I was wondering how that works.
How do they charge it?
Is there one in each car that's actively used or is only the one in the operator's car used for power? If it dies, can they switch to another car's battery?
Do both cars of a married pair set have batteries? Or just one? Is there a battery in the A cars of the modern multi-car sets? Maybe even the B cars?
The circuit breakers in the cabs, are they connect directly to the 600V system or do they go by way of the 32V circuit?
The static convertor, or for us old school personel, the motor generator, converts 600 volts to a nominal 32 VDC and works in the fashion of the altenator of your car to charge the batteries. All old school single cars and married pair convertor cars, (even numbered cars) and all A cars of the R44 and the R46 fleet have a bettery charging system and storage batteries.
This energy is regulated by internal diodes and electronics or a trickle charger for MG sets to avoid overcharging the batteries.
This low voltage is commutated trainline through the B3 wire, which can backfeed the batteries of cars with B/O chargers. The low voltage supplies various trainline functions such as the electric air brake commands namely the A and R wires, multiple unit door control, as well as propulsion control such as power positions and dynamic setup.
Low voltage can also control local functions, such as lighting on the newer cars, individual door operator power (DC1/2) and individual car propulsion control. Note this differs from trainline control as the master controller (trainline) must have sufficient low voltage at the head of the train for the entire consist to receive the signal to initiate the power sequence (local) by closing contactors and relays routing the 600 volts to the traction equipent.
All low voltage functions are protected by a circuit breaker. This includes the local and trainline functions. For example on the R30s, the control cutout would have been a 50 amp breaker in case an electric portion or propulsion relay had shorted ANYWHERE in the consist. Same with the B2 breaker, which feeds the low voltage to the self lapping units inside the typical SMEE brake valve. The A and R wires are energized from this point to energize ALL the magnet valves controlling the application or release of the air in the straight air pipe. Local breakers would not rate much more than the maximum amperage required for that one car, for example the lighting might be a 5 amp breaker. The large handled circuit breakers in the cabs control 600 volt functions such as the D4 compressor, static convertor heating, and air conditioning. This is a motorman's point of view so to the Train Dude, let the beatings begin!
Not bad for a motorman! Based on schoolcar you are essentially correct but let me make a few corrections and additions.
First, there was a time before the Motor-Generator. Cars like the D types, the standards and the R-1 thru R-9 had no MGs but did have batteries? They were actually charged by a magneto on the WABCO D3F air compressor. If the compressor failed so did the battery, eventually.
Second: The actual battery voltage is 36Volts DC Nominal but the output of the converter is 37.5 volts. The principal is simple. Voltage is the equivalent of pressure. if you are going to push current into a battery, the source has to be of a higher voltage than the storage device into which you are going to push it.
Finally: I've argued with engineers about this for ever and they disagree with me but can't explain where I'm wrong. The trainline battery is a myth. Yeah, it shows up in the schematics but where is it in real life? Take for example, the R-46 before overhaul. If you were around then you'll remember what would happen when you had bad batteries on the head car. Every time the car gapped, you'd lose P-Wire and stop dead. Now, if there were really the B-3 circuit, the train would have picked up battery from the 3 A cars behind. This did not happen and we all know it. I can't remember how many times I (as an RCI) had to have a train operated without carbody lights, fans and even headlights just to get a brake release.
Jeff, I know we've been over this point before a while back but if you want to jump in, I'd love the company.
I'm jumping here late but the trainline B+ does work. However let's look at the line itself as the culprit here. It's a what: 14 or 12 Ga wire? If you're going to supply all that current through 300 or more feet of wire that thin, did you really expect it NOT to act as a resistor? The design concept was concieved when low voltage for a car with inoperative compressors was meant to supply a bare few items. Some low current relays and contactors. Today's equipment requires high current supply because of all the accesores added. Lighting and PA. Electric rather than air operated doors and a multitude of other gadgets like illuminated electronic side signs illuminated end signs etc, etc.
So for the designers of the R-44/46 to have built those cars they way they did was a serious oversight. But it doesn't negate the value of the B+ tranline. Harold and I used to use them all time.
In the yard back in 1987 we would use battery voltage from an R-46 on the track adjacent so we could turn the MG set off. Various reasons like test, repair or even as mundane as we wanted QUIET. That MG set does have a tendency to be annoying after a while. So I would use a pair of aligator clips and a length of 12 Ga wire between the electric portons of 6398 and say 520 or 1100 or 1276.
Boy do I miss those cars.
Partially, for the reason you stated, I contend that it doesn't work. You can't use 4 or 6 ga wire to hook up the batteries to the circuit breaker panel and then expect 12 or 14 gauge teflon coated wire to do the same job from even 150-525 feet away.
To prove this, I actually forced a disabled (lost P-wire) R-46 to operate normally from 2nd Ave to Jamaica Yard using the cable from the 'Sound-Powered' phones to bring B+ to the P-Wire gen. in the head car from the 5th.
BRAVO! I really love innovative thinking, something too many folks here (TA) don't have.
Yeah but you know yourself, all your attaboys mean nothing and you're only as good as your last 'Awe-sh&t'. Speaking of which, are you still on the 'B' and if so how come I didn't see you Wednesday night at the derailment.
Naww, I have a Q job. I only work the D on the weekends. That derailment made me overcrowded but since I don't head up that way it wasn't too bad for me.
Interesting I heard that exact same thought about attaboys and oh s--- when I worked for MRL. I was on the safety committee and tried to get a commendation or my brakeman who spotted a track defect I didn't see. Pity management wouldn't cooperate. Later he got 5 days for "losing "a car when switching. I don't think damage was serious but of course he didn't catch the handbrake so TS, we forget your good work. They're all the same.[the above words were used too].On the B plus wire I always wondered why diesel loco's don't have one, heavy duty. If an engine dies and the batteries are weak you can't restart it. With the most modern loco's with all electronic controls, including air brake, you'll be SOL with a weak battery.
I try to explain that exact concept to each and every employee. When I was an RCI, I had a reputation of being able to move anything that wasn't derailed. It's a plus to know that your bosses know you can handle it. Bad because you never get any help and if someting goes wrong, your the first one they look to blame for being so damn arrogant. I never expect anyone to go beyond the scope of the rule book or the CBA. That is just about how far I can protect them. The same goes for me. I can only go so far - screw up - and be protected. The rest is on my shoulders.
As for the loco question, I'm far from an expert but I know they supply AC to the passenger consist. I suppose each car has a small battery charging circuit for emergency lights etc. However, the size of the battery in a loco and the current needed to turn it over must be huge. The pass. car batteries, I'm sure, are not equal to the task. I suppose it's not considered practical although I'm not sure I totally agree.
The loco's that provide auxiliary power are far outnumbered by those that dont. Only Amtrak and the transit districts have aux. power. Freight loco's, the great majority, are much like electric MU's but no B+ wire. Each one self contained, with air and electric MU connections. In my days with NYCT I recall the diesels had a starter plug if you had a weak battery you could jump start them with a cable. In my BN and MRL days I never saw such a thing, and wonder why when you can be stranded with no help within 100 miles, in places here there's no access, that the freight lines don't have such a setup. Back to the management gripe.. what can you expect from the big shots? They can't see that a few hundred dollar investment can save thousands when needed.
That is cool and for one who always cries about rules and regulations, it goes out the window here. One time I was assigned to move diesels 10 and 11 from Westchester Yard to 207 St. The engine consist was 10 North which was workable with working trainline and Engine Brake (TM) and the 11 second north, which was stripped aka brake pipe rupture. The former superintendant of the work trains at the time ran a 3/4 inch rubber hose from the glad hands of the next working car, a scrap flat headed for SBK to the BP of the ten. I suppose anyone who could get a half an R62 from Union Square to Concourse on ONE truck DESERVES THE POSITION! Like Eric said, the TA soes not use much of innovative thinking these days.
"and for one who always cries about rules and regulations"
I hope that you were not referring to me. Yes, I do believe in the rules and regulations. I also believe that the CBA should be enforced on both sides of the net. However, when there is an emergency situation, when there is a problem, I believe you bottom-line the situation and get it resolved. As a new RCI I one had to selector-cock an entire R-46 consist to get it back to Jamaica Yard. (Same weak battery condition). When I got there (without incident) the car desk supervisor (who ultimately ended up working for me)wanted me disciplined for my reckless act. And in fact, i was summoned to jay St. to write a report on the incident. The RCI chairman was there and asked what I was doing there. I explained it to him. he asked me:
Was anyone hurt? (no)
Was there any equipment damaged? (no)
Was there a big delay in service. (no)
Then he said (with is Irish Brough, "Well screw 'em all then!" He went into the office, came out a few minutes later and told me I could go back to work. Of course that was 18 years ago. Things have tightened up today. In some ways for the better and in some ways for the worse. However, if the R-46s were today as they were then, I'd never pull a stunt like that again.
[For those who never heard of the selector-cock feature, it was only used on the R-46. With it you could cut out the service air brake but maintain the emergency brake feature. In essence, you had dynamic brake down to 5 MPH and then had to dump the train to stop.]
Errr, I don't think the D types use a magneto off the compressor.
AFAIK, they use the same charging system as the R1-9, which I
described earlier in the thread: the negative side of the compressor
motor goes to ground through a tapped power resistor. The total
resistance is about 4 ohms. The battery is connected to an adjustable
tap. This forms a voltage/current divider such that most of the
compressor motor current flows into the B+ and into the battery.
About 5-10 amps is typical. As the battery voltage rises, more
of the current flows through the ballast resistor. If you remove
the battery or open-circuit it, very bad things happen because
the B+ line will rise to double or even triple normal voltage while
the compressor is running.
The battery on SMEE cars is 25 NiCd cells which works out to
about 32 Volts nominal.
The B3 trainline is connected back to B1 via a limiting resistor.
I forget the value but it should be fairly evident on the prints.
The effect of a dead battery in the train would depend on how
it has failed. If it is simply low on charge or open-circuit, then
in theory the trainline should be able to supply enough voltage
to make things work. The equivalent circuit depends on the
position of the car within the train. The end cars are in the
worst shape for receiving a trainline boost.
Now, if the battery has failed by developing a number of shorted
cells, or the car is pulling down an unusually heavy battery
load because of a high-resistance short somewhere, then the
failing car starts to pull down the entire trainline. The limit
resistors prevent too much current from being sucked out of the
good cars, but the load in the bad car will be too much to be
supplied via the trainline.
The B3 wire itself is fairly heavy in the main harness, I dunno,
maybe #4 or even #2. That doesn't add too much resistance to the
circuit, but the electric portion contacts are a tremendous variable
and the contact resistance per mating could be anywhere from a
few miliohms to a few ohms.
The R-44/46 P-wire design was flawed in that it required a lot of
current which had to be supplied via the head-end car, which you
see is the most vulnerable to poor batteries. I don't know why
they didn't use a lower current value. Perhaps they were concerned
about stray currents causing false releases.
"Perhaps they were concerned about stray currents causing false releases."
One of the strangest occurrences involving false releases was when we installed the motorola radios in the r-46s. The FL-85 package was sensative to the RF and when you keyed the mike, most times you got a 20 - 30 PSI BCP reduction from full service. Suppression was added to eliminate this but some cars still gave up 5 PSI.
Turning on the way-back machine, I remember that problem!
It was when they converted from the R-46 specific radios to
the same type of bracket in use on the rest of the B div.
This lead to an unusual RTO bulletin stating that before
keying the mike on the R-46, you had to be stopped with the
brakes applied in full service.
Now, maybe this was urban legend or just plain misinformation,
but the story that was circulating was that the problem was
caused by either an incorrect field change spec or incorrect
execution in the barns, which resulted in the decelostat circuit (
which by this point had been disconnected) getting crossed to
one of the radio bracket wires.
I vaguely remember the bulletin. I more clearly remember the SH*T Storm we started when we found this problem on trains reported for self releasing or poor braking. When the R-46 was first delivered, they had the smallish radio mounted on the bulkhead wall opposite the motorman. The new brackets were installed under the cab window by the vendor as I remember it so if it were a mis-wire, the TA would have had the vendor re-do the job. The problem was a combination of the placement of the new radio bracket (adjacent to the FL85 package wiring) and the increase in the output of the radio. I do remember hanging the large blue electrolytic caps in the terminal strip of the FL85 to keep the trains rolling.
I think EngineBrake covered most of the points in his followup.
Let me take a moment to clear up a common misconception, which
you brushed against in saying
I know that every car starting with the Low-V uses a 32V...
Many people think Low Voltage Multiple Unit control began with
the IRT Lo-V cars, or at about that time. In fact, the very first
multiple unit systems, developed by Frank Sprague in 1897, were
low-voltage, using a 14 volt battery. This design was marketed
both by Westinghouse and General Electric, and used heavily by
the Brooklyn elevated system (which adopted M-U several years before
the conservative Manhattan el system).
The Hi-V system of control was introduced by General Electric in
1901, and was radically different from the Sprague design in that
it used a large number of individual contactors. This system was
successfully sold to what at that point was the Manhattan division
of the IRT, and thus became their standard. The BRT never, except
perhaps for some experimentals, used the Hi-V system. GE subsequently
reverted to low-voltage control, albeit at the higher 32 volt
battery pressure, when it introduced the type PC control in the
early 1910s.
Now, back to your other question on charging. There are 3 fundamental
ways to charge electric railway batteries:
1) By placing the battery at the bottom of a voltage or current
divider. This is usually done by having the negative side of the air
compressor return to ground across a low resistance, and then having
the battery connected across a portion of this resistance via a
relay while the compressor is running. This method is used on nearly
all of the pre-war museum equipment.
2) Using a DC generator driven by a 600VDC motor (the so-called
"M-G" set). The field excitation of the generator is controlled with
a regulating relay, similar to an automotive battery circuit. This
method was used on all of the SMEE cars prior to the R-44, however,
after GOH, all cars use method 3 below with the exception of the
Corona 36s and 33 singles.
3) With a solid state converter, which uses a transistor which chops
the 600VDC at high frequency (10-30 kHz, depending on model),
followed by a step-down transformer, rectifier and filter capacitor.
This method, known as a "static converter" is used on almost
all NYC subway cars today.
Jeff, I think the nominal state of the GE converter is 1,500 Hz although it varies with load.
Yes, of course you're right, judging from the audible noise
the statics emit. I misplaced a decimal point.
P.S. I expected you of all people to answer the R68 Emergency
Position Mod question!
I had meant to get a clarification this AM before answering. I also hoped Alex, Engine Brake or Pelham dave would answer first and get me off the hook. The truth is I'm not sure why the lable is there beause the brake valve feels normal to me (of course, I don't operate trains too often). However, if I were to speculate, the brake valve collar was modified to provide an extra detent or step before the brake handle can be removed. I think this has permitted the emergency position to be shifted by a few degrees.
According to the bulletins, the newer brass collars ensure that the valve will place in emergency before taking the handles out, in part due to a feature of manipulating the handle by lifting it up after entering the emergency position. It does feel like the emergency position is a little closer to handle out then previous, IE when inserting a handle into a charged train. I remember the R68s when new with the NYAB valves that you could go past the emergency position without dumping the train and some with capabilities of bypassing the emergency position alltogether with the topside, a condition which still seems to exist today.
Thanks for clarifying that for us. I wasn't 100% sure.
The way I read the stories, and I could be wrong, or the information I read could be wrong: that Sprague's original system was High-Voltage and he sold the patents to GE. I had a plate from a HV controller cover once that said Sprague-General Electric , in big letters, and then a small stamping: Type M. So I can verify that GE used Sprague's idea by that plate and readings. In the same story I read that when Sprague invented the Low-V system he sold the patents to Westinghouse.[also noticed the BMT BU, Q types had Westinghouse controllers and they were Low-V, a very simple antiquated type but they were almost-trouible free. Simplicity rules!]I could be wrong but that's a likely story. Know anything about the old NY central MU's? The car drawing I have says they had type M control, but I recall the controller being smaller by far than the IRT ones. The later cars I think [1928,etc] had PC controls. Yet they were always MU'ed. Any info there? The 1907 cars converted??
Here's a more detailed history: Sprague invented M-U in 1897.
His original design was most definitely low-voltage...check the
patent drawings. It utilized an approx 14 volt battery system
and had the same familiar switching/series/parallel system of
today. It was automatic acceleration too. His design used an
electrically-operated pilot motor which was advanced under control
of the accelerating relay. However, unlike today's SCM designs,
his pilot motor advanced what was essentially a K controller,
meaning a lot of force needed to turn those segments and problems
with arcing and burnt fingers. This design was used in 1897
on the Chicago South side electrification. I do not know if any
examples survive. I believe GE made the hardware under contract
to Sprague.
By 1898, Westinghouse was making a copycat design. It is possible
that Sprague licensed his patent...I'd have to do some more research.
Of course, Westinghouse, loving anything pneumatic, replaced his
pilot motor, which drew a lot of current, with a piston that was
stroked by the accelerating relay and ratcheted up the drum.
This was known as the Westinghouse "notching head" design. It was
this type of control that Brooklyn specified during its MU electrifiction program which began in 1898. We have 2 examples
of this control group at cars at Branford.
Although the Sprague design was eventually vindicated 50 years later,
both WH and GE abandoned it for a while. There were problems with
the solid K-type drum from arcing, problems with the notching
arrangement. Also, GE had concerns about trainline jumper contact
resistance causing intermittent operation with the low-voltage
battery (a problem we encounter regularly at Branford), problems
with battery charging circuits, and some
customer discomfort with automatic acceleration.
Therefore, GE debuted Type M (for Magnetic) unit switch control
ca 1901. It was a high-voltage, manual acceleration system.
In place of a drum and fingers, it relied on heavy, individual
contactors (unit-switches) to make up the series/parallel circuits
and shunt the grid resistances. These contactors were magnetic
in nature, having beefy coils that require about 100-150 VDC and
1/4A to operate. They are driven from the 600V trainlines through
an oddball arrangement of dropping resistors and placing the coils
in various series/parallel combinations.
Westinghouse countered with the "Turret", also known as type AB
control. It retained the low-voltage (14VDC) battery trainlines,
but went to the unit switch design. Predictably, the unit switches
were electropneumatically operated: a magnet valve admitted air
to a piston which closed a spring-loaded contactor.
Now, at this point, Sprague sued General Electric claiming patent
infringement. GE maintained that their unit-switch design was
substantially different from the original Sprague design. The
court found that Sprague's patent on multiple unit was a controlling
patent on the very idea of M-U, and ruled in favor of Sprague.
GE was forced to license this controlling patent from Sprague.
Because Sprague got screwed by Edison-GE a decade earlier over
his work on the trolley car, he insisted that General Electric
must use his name on any M-U products they sell. Thus, the nameplate
for Type M control reads "Sprague-General Electric Multiple
Unit Control System".
Westinghouse either sub-licensed from GE or cut their own deal
with Sprague. Either way, for whatever reason, they were not
under the same obligation and thus their gear from the era
reads simple "Westinghouse Multiple Control".
I'll see what I have on the NYC cars.
So many thanks. I probably got more of an education from you the last month than in many years previous.
How do they set up the coupler so that the train can be operated from not the first car? Is there a switch to break the electrical connections once the coupler is attached? What about the air line?
That largely depends on the circumstance requiring other than head car operation. Essentually we have two alternate set-ups for other than head car operation. One is called Air & Iron only. The other is called Iron to Iron. Iron to Iron was always considered the move of last resort because it gave you the least control over the train. However, in the real world, where you have 3,00 people on a stalled train, it's the fastest way to get the train moving.
The air and electrical functions are controlled seperately at the couplers. The electric is easily controller by retrieving the electric portion on both cars and locking them back. This is done by pulling a lever on the coupler. it requires quite a bit of force and usually requires a piece of pipe for leverage. On the R-44 or R-46, the critical electrical circuits can be broken by throwing a device called a 'cam switch' in the cab where the isolation is required. This breaks propulsion, door and braking functions but allows you to maintain PA communications. This can be a real god-send in many instances. Of course, there are times where we've actually had to resort to pulling the EPs back and place cardboard between the pins and let them close again to hold the cardboard in place.
The ear is even easier. At each coupler you have two angle cocks. One is for break pipe and one is for straight air. Depending on the circumstance, you can pull either one independently or both (more commonly done). between married pairs, you have both angle cocks plus a third for main reservoir air. Angles between married pairs are rarely used in emergency applications, though. They are primarilly there for use during maintenance.
Keep in mind that these are the views of the division of Car Equipment and I'm sure my friends in RTO will have other views.
My thanks to you for this edition of Fundamental Subway Facts 101.
It's just amazing what you'll lear by just paying attention !
May I bother you for a little more, i.e. types of couplers:
- Van Dorn Link & Pin
- J type
- H2a
- H2c
- Link Bars
- Ohio Brass Hook
- (conventional RxR) Knuckle coupler
Did I miss any ?
Can you provide a "thumb nail" description of each ?
BTW, At Seashore I saw a piece of casted steel that they used to make one coupler compatible with another type (Doug the BMT Man's got the job of switching them on their road engine #300 ... it was obvious that Mr. Middleton, their Yardmaster, knew he wanted to do this. It was just another little bit of RxR getting dirty that we expierenced first hand). Is that typical for the MOW engines, i.e. hauling a work train vs. rescuing a string for dead subway cars ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston. is this supposed to be an exhaustive list of couplers
of all time? Of the NYCT transit system? If the former, then
an accurate accounting could fill a book. You can find examples
of nearly all of the couplers you listed up at Branford.
VanDorn is basically a manual, link-pin design. You place the
link bar into one coupler and insert the pin to hold it in place,
then you nudge up to the next car allowing the bar to enter the
coupler face, insert the pin, and let it drop into the hole.
Sometimes you need to get in there and jostle it by hand, which
caused many an injury during the day.
The knuckle, or "MCB" (for the Master Car Builders Association)
is the standard railroad coupler since, I think, around 1910.
Coupling is made by running the two couplers into each other.
To uncouple, the side latch is retracted either with a lever mounted
on the coupler head or more often a cable or chain so you can
retract it from a safe distance.
Both of these couplers are used with external air hoses and
external electrical jumpers.
The Ohio Brass Thomlinson coupler was very popular with streetcars
and interurbans. The current generation OB couplers on NYCT
are very similar to this ancient design, which uses a hook and
spring latch. Most Thomlinson couplers have air couplings built
in to the face. There were many variants.
The H head was WABCOs first automatic tightlock coupler, ca 1914.
The BRT standards were the first to use it. It is essentially
an MCB knuckle design, however the unlocking dog is operated by
a pneumatic piston. Two air lines are provided on the inside
face and an electric contact portion is underneath, which is normally
covered but automatically uncovers and extends when a coupling
is made.
The H2A heads were used with AMUE brake schedules where the top
tappet valve is Main Reservoir (typ 90 psi) and the lower
Brake Pipe (0-70 psi). The H2C is a modified design for use with
SMEE where the top tappet is Straight Air (0-85 psi) and the
lower tappet is Brake Pipe (0-110 psi). In either case, when
air is supplied via a little pipe to the cutting port of the coupler
(via the cutting valve), this triggers a complicated pneumatic
sequence that seals off the brake pipe (so your side doesn't go
into emergency), retracts the electric portion and then admits
air from either the BP or MR to the uncoupling piston, which retracts
the dog, allowing you to back the consist away. Air also flows
through a third "button" tappet valve to trigger your mate to
retract.
The J head was the IRT's take on the H head. For whatever reason,
they didn't like electric portions, and preferred to stick with
jumpers. Probably because the jumper sockets were already wired
up and they didn't feel like re-wiring when they went from Van Dorns
to Js. They have the air-operated cutting piston, but you need
two cutting keys, one for each car (I'm pretty sure, BigEdIRTMan
could answer this). Although mechanically similar to H heads,
the tappet valves are mounted in different positions and bad things
will happen if you attempt to couple up.
The IRT also used an F head which was a J head with a manual cutting
lever instead of the air piston. The museum Lo-Vs have modified
J heads with the tappets relocated so they can couple to H2 heads.
NYCT work equipment is mixed between MCB and H2 heads. Usually
the type is spray painted in big letters near the coupler. Locomotives always carry coupler adapters to go from whatever
they have to anything else (MCB, H2 or OB's for the R44/46).
R44/46 cars used to carry an OB to H2 adapter in a pocket under
the car, under the big end sign, but they seem to be gone now.
[Thurston, is this supposed to be an exhaustive list of couplers
of all time?]
No, what you discovered is that I don't know very much about the subject. Since I just finished reading "They Moved MIllions" I learned a little & this thread prompted me to try & get a little smarter.
[You can find examples of nearly all of the couplers you listed up at Branford.]
Gee you mean I can learn a lot about this by coming up to Brabford ? Folks out there are going to think this was a set up ! You know that the 3/4 Ton Crew is going to intrupt your work to do a show & tell now!
Thanks for the lesson in Couplers #101 ! Maybe the Train Dude will want to do the next, i.e. course #102
Mr t__:^)
TrainDude is doing "Derailment 102" since last night. B train ooops. Lots of fun in the yard.
As to Van Dorn's every standard car in Baltimore was equipped with them (except our fabled 5800 class semi's, which were MU and had OB Form 5 couplers.)
All non-Van Dorn equipped cars carried a compromise coupler that either fit the drawbar pocket on Witts and PCC's and the 58's carried an adapter that connected a Form 5 to a Van Dorn.
The United, Baltimore Transit and BSM all used (or now use) the same method for coupling cars with Van Dorns.
1. Center the couplers on both cars.
2. Insert the link in the "live" car's coupler and secure with the pin.
3. S-L-O-W-L-Y move the live car until the coupler faces touch.
4. If the heads do not line up, use a long switch iron held by two men under the offending coupler and "boost" it up until the two heads are the same level.
5. Once the live car has moved up tight, drop the pin into the coupler of the other car. If the pin won't drop easily, use switch iron to "persuade" it.
At BSM we've been doing it for 30 years without any lost fingers. A search of URE/BTC accident reports only yealds 5 injuries coupling cars with Van Dorns in the years 1926-1945.
Sorry to admit I can't offer more info. on the J heads. All I can say, and I'll have to clarify that I only worked old IRT stuff on one fantrip and a work train once in a while. I've never heard of an IRT cutting key and the only couplers I ever had to "cut" with were manual , I can tell you that was a tight spring, much like slide retrieval on the H2A or C. They were all unmodified ex-mainline hand me downs, I assumed they had J heads, positive that was stencilled by the number. I wondered what an F head was but guess you answered that, yet again I've never heard of a pneumatic uncoupling on those old cars. But then I wasn't a motorman until 1967. Another post mentions how few accidents they had with Van Dorns, guess [if current speed and volume of freight cars switched was similar in the early days] they take more time hooking up traction cars. On the freight roads it was common, before the present "automatic" knuckle couplers, that the link and pin couplers claimed a lot of brakemen's and swichmen's fingers.
Was there a lever on these coupler heads to unlock them, or did
you use separate cutting irons?
With traction cars, the person moving the consist is right there
where they have a pretty good view of the groundmen. On a freight
road the engineer is dozens of cars up and out of sight, so I
guess that would have contributed to more accidents. Heck, the BMT
kept Van Dorns into the 1950s!
To repeat a earlier post of mine .... Lou from Brooklyn & I were the "ground men" with the "cutting irons" while Jeff "was right there" in the cab of the Lo-V as he broke it away the R-9 recently at Branford.
Mr t__:^)
Reading Thurston's post now has me asking questions. I can't remember using cutting irons, IIRc there was a lever right below the coupler head that we used, felt much like slide retrieval on H2A etc; pretty stiff. But perhaps when this was a more common practice they had cutting irons.[BMT..fakeout..before my time!]To make it easier with more leverage? I wouldn't know one if I saw one. On the Van Dorn's you have a good thought, referring to the coupling practices of passenger traction cars Vs. Freight equipment.. The BMT indeed had them as late as 1969 on the Q's. H&M/PATH until the early 60's. IRT/Man.el until 1956.
Your question seems to be alittle vague, but here goes RTO's POV.
Theoretically, I can operate the train from any cab position that has TO controls simply by charging the train from that position, releasing the brakes and taking power. BEFORE I can do that, I need permission from Control Center and a qualified person (TO, CR, TSS etc)to ride in the frontmost cab and flag for me -- tell me what is ahead -- because I can't see.
Train Dude has done a good job of explaining the coupler connections, so there's no reason to do it again. What he describes are ways to move a train that has suffered from some sort of major problem such as a brake pipe rupture, where it is no longer possible to maintain air pressure trainline.
The signals page here shows a special aspect with three yellows (the third one is the call on) used only for yards. I assume this is set (as opposed to double green or something) if there is already a train in the track and two trains are going to share a track or that there's going to be a whole lot o' couplin' goin' on!
Do long yard tracks have multiple blocks?
Is there third rail in the shop (or barn, I don't know the difference)? What about signals?
Are RR crossings in the yard signalled, or is it a stop and look both ways situation?
The triple-yellow aspect is essentially a call-on that doesn't
require the train to stop and pull the call-on lever. You expect
to find another train between that signal and the next signal or
the bumping block. With that indication the signal is used only
on non-revenue trackage. There is another indication that the
Y/Y/Y aspect can give which is, effectively, proceed with caution
on third route. I seem to recall that back in the day when the
G trains turned back in the middle at Queens Plaza, you'd get
a triple yellow to go from D2 across D4 to D5 track.
Signals in the yard are primarily to protect switches and fouling
clearances. In terms of hitting the next train, that's often the
point, so you're on visual rules. I've never seen crossing gates
in the yard, that would be silly. You must be prepared for the
approach of trains from either direction on any track at any time
and you must wear a reflective safety vest.
There is no third rail in the house. Cars are either pushed in
with another train or a locomotive, or the "bug" (a portable
600 volt jumper that attaches to the main) is used to supply power,
or you fly it in (very naughty).
Pigs, I saw all of this in the Coney Island Yard. So watch here for the next time a tour goes there to see first hand. The one I was on was ERA sponcered, so lots of CY-TA staff was their to answer all our silly questions ... it was a most excelent day.
Mr t__:^)
The Yellow over Yellow over Yellow is a Yard Indication Signal. This is to inform the TO that after passing the signal, he is on Yard trackage and Yard operating rules are now in effect. This aspect is only seen when entering the Yard from the mainline. Once you are in the Yard, you must have your train under control, because it is very possible for another train to be ahead of you on the same track or for a switch to be set against you (not all switches in yards have an associated signal).
In general, all lay-up tracks in the yard are one block long, which goes from the bumping block to the switch at the leaving end of the track. It is possible to store more than one train on some tracks in some yards. There are also some yards, eg Westchester Yard, where the loop track can also be used for storage. Tracks like that will have multiple blocks on them.
Yur original premise is slightly askew as to the call-on question. A signal displaying a Y-Y-Y aspect is not a call-on according to NYCT rule 65M. It is an interlocking signal that indicates "Proceed with caution prepared to stop within vision expecting to find track occupied". A call-on signal PER RULE 65K can be found at any interlocking and is always R-R-Y It indicates "Stop! Operate the automatic stop manual release then proceed with caution ....yada, yada, yada." This data is on Pg #60 of the TA Rules and Regulations.
I only put in the parentheses with the call on light in case someone was reading and wondered how there could be a THIRD light. That third yellow would be the Call on light.
Any railfanners going to be in New York on August 16-17. I only know you guys by E-Mail. Would like to touch base with you, maybe have a drink (soft one for me), and perhaps ride some rails. (Coney Island?)
I would consider it a highlight of my baseball trip.
Also, if anyone wants to meet up for the new WMATA Green Line Stations opening on Saturday, January 13, 2001, post on the board. I'd like to meet up with some people hopefully (despite the possible cold).
I'm willing to do the 2nd annual "Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock & Long" while you're here, which is what I thought you wanted to do. It would start at 6 PM at Jay Street (actually folks could join me at Main Street for some Red Birding on the Flushing line at 4 PM).
If you would rather take the Sea Beach to Coney Island (I can't understand why in the World you would want to do that :-) well OK.
Something is happening at Sheepshead Bay & Coney Island this week-end, but more about that later.
Anyhow, decide what you are most interested in as the "Field Trip" I have in mind needs a little planning, i.e. I'll confirm that a few friends are up for it, plan the route, etc. then anounce it so others can tag along.
Mr t__:^)
Waht a mess! Just turn on your national news and you will be sure to see it. People are chain-linked w/PVC pipe and are blocking center city bus routes 2, 12,17,33 a host of others. The protests are getting violent and the police are taking action. Walking in peace
is one thing, but causing destrucion and laying down in the street,blocking traffic is a bunch of "s**t"
Chuck Greene
As inconvenient and disruptive as it can be, be thankful that we live in a land where it can be done.
OTOH, civil disobedience protesters these days tend be a bunch of misguided, loud-mouthed idiots who don't realize they do more to alienate those who might be understanding or sympathetic to their cause by acting in such inconsiderate ways, and then complain loudly how their "civil rights were violated" because the jail doesn't serve vegetarian meals or have decent bedding. Puhleeze.
These protesters should focus on improving themselves before getting in everyone else's faces about how lousy and rotten we are. (It was quite amusing seeing in the media how many of the World Bank protesters were wearing apparel from the very "oppressors" such as Nike they were supposed to be protesting against.)
Are you in the Washington area? I assume you are because of your handle...
A protester who was disrupting traffic yesterday was asked on the scene by KYW news radio (traffic and transit on the two's) what were the purpose and the reason for the activity. Answers: (1) "To be as disruptive as possible." (2) "Because they don't have the right to meet here."
heypaul jokes about mental illness, but this guy has a serious sanity deficit.
And this thread relates to subways/transit systems...how?
Umm, if you read the message more closely, one line in it is "blocking center city bus routes 2, 12,17,33 a host of others." Maybe this thread is more appropriate to BusTalk than SubTalk, but the effect of protests and/or rioting on transit routes IS a transit-related topic.
Hey, some of those protestors are my good friends. Wesleyan is a really activist school and we sent about 150 people to the WTO protests in DC. I will admit that these protsts lack focus (unlike the WTO protests in DC and Seatle) and they apear to be protesting just for the sake of disrupting stuff. However I can't stand Republicans and if the protesters were to shut down the RNC I'd have no problem. Unfortunitly they have decided to protest everything instead of just protesting the evil republicans. It would have been cool if Philly had won both conventions. With 2 chanches to present a positive image we could have welcomed the Dems. and called out the teamsters to deal with the republicans. BTW If the protestors really wanted to cause a problem they should block the BSL maybe around Lombard-South and Broad St. at the same time.
BTW if you doubt the effectiveness of direct action protest, last year students occupied the admissions building at my school and got the administration to pay the janitors a living wage w/ some benifits.
I'm sure Republicans can't stand you, either.
Did the stations that opened in 1917 have to have its platforms lengthened? I don't see any mentions that they were. If they didn't need to be lengthened, how odd did it look with long platforms at the "new" stations and tiny ones at the original stations? When were the exact dates for the platform lengthening project? Since it was done some time during the 40s to 60s, why did it take over thirty years to finally start to lengthen them? (this question is moot if the 1917 stations had to be lengthened, too.)
Also, at this web site , linked from the IRT page on this site, says that Worth St. was lengthened before it was abandoned. So does that mean that Brooklyn Bridge and Worth St. were right next door to each other for a number of years before someone thought, "Hey, these two stations are three feet apart, let's shut one of them down."
1917-era IRT stations were lengthened circa 1960 – by about 45 feet [on those stations that opened at a length of 480 ft. and then extended to 525’]. If you will notice on many stations from that period (i.e. the Lexington Avenue line north of 51st Street or the Nostrand Avenue line), the extended sections have newer station tile design as manifested by the 1967-opened Grand Street subway station which connected the 6th Avenue line to the Manhattan Bridge. Extended sections of 7th Avenue platforms south of 34th Street had a design not unlike the 57th Street-6th Avenue station which opened in 1968.
I don't know when it was done but the Lex-4th Ave. below Grand Central platforms were extended well before 1960 (except for 18th which was abandoned). You can see the original station and then the extension by the tile work being different but nicely matched. But the same wasn't done on the Bway-7Ave. Times Sq-96th. Farther north up Broadway it was. Take 168 and 181 for example, the portion that isn't in the high arches was an extension, IIRC they were doing 181st in late 40's. I remember my mom telling me they were extending platforms but i was only about 4-7 years old then.
Some of this platform lengthening was only on one side - don't recall if it was northbound or southbound at this point and couldn't find the reference to it to be sure. Funds ran out before the other direction was done and it wasn't until the early '60s that the job was completed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The platforms lengthened on only one side were the local stations on the IRT East Side line (original subway) between Brooklyn Bridge and 14th St. They were lengthened on the downtown side first (I think it was shortly after WWII). The uptown sides (all execept for Worth St., which was closed) were lengthened in the early 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
The IRT uptown local stations above Union Square also were lengthened before the ones south of there, probably because the TA figured few people would be getting off a train that just started its run at Brooklyn Bridge.
You can tell which side was lengthened first by the tile design -- the downtown IRT platforms south of Union Square have a pattern that is similar to (but not the exact same) as the original 1904 design, while the uptown side has that `modern' tilework that debuted with the IND Grant Ave. station on the A line in 1955 and continued through the 57th-6th Ave. stop on 1968. (Then of course, the MTA took over and managed to achieve the impossible and actually come up with an even worse tile design, for the BMT R line's local stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn)
Worse tile design? I'm sorry, there's nothing worse than puke green tile.
OK, let's say it's more of an outrage than the green tile -- those ugly-looking things just went on walls where the IRT platforms were extended; the MTA cinderblock tiles on the BMT went over the original tilework, which could have been restored or recreated (and thankfully is now at a couple of stations).
Upcoming renovations - B'way BMT:
They are going to do 23rd Street and 8th Street over - and in so doing, remove the "refrigerator tile" there. Then they will restore the original Vickers mosaics.
Wayne
Good. In Manhattan that will leave Prince, Rector, a bit of City Hall 28th and Rector still to restore (49th Street doesn't bother me as much as the `fridge tile look does, maybe because it doesn't look as cheap). Fourth Ave. in Brooklyn though, has long way to go. Maybe by 2010 or so, everything will be back to normal.
Yep, the tile at Grant Avenue is sure ughly! I've seen that color in a number of bathrooms in my travels. Even the tile band on the trackside walls is awful - a green so dark it looks black! Typical 1950's/1960's design.
wayne
The dead giveaway is that the 1940's extensions had an IND-style white tile design, and the 1960's extensions on the ptown local stations had that ugly green tile in vogue at the time.
In addition, the 1940’s extensions (on the southbound platforms between Astor Place and Worth Street; on both sides of the 23rd, 28th and 33rd Street stations of the Lexington Avenue line; and on underground platforms in both directions between 103rd and 181st Street on the Broadway-7th Avenue line) had pre-lettered and -numbered tiles (white lettering on black background), the variation of which was exactly the same as on the following IND stations:
- Queens Boulevard line: Sutphin Boulevard, Parsons Boulevard, 169th Street
- Sixth Avenue line: 14th Street, 23rd Street, 34th Street [before remodeling, of course], 42nd Street, 47th-50th St./Rockefeller Center
and probably
- Brooklyn-Queens crosstown: Broadway, Metropolitan Avenue/Grand Street [before remodeling]
Worth Street appears to have been lengthened, if you look at it while going by (its lit up by the construction lights.) It still has a yellow stripe along the platform edge.
It's definitely longer than 18th Street, though I don't think it's as long as the standard 520-foot length of all the IRT mainline stations today.
On the other hand, spending a bunch of money to lengthen a station and then closing it down a few years later sounds about like the MO for the Transit Authority :-)
I doubt if closing it was in the plans when it was lengthened, which from what I've been able to put together from comments would have been in the late 40's about 15 years previous to being closed.
Southbound Worth Street was. I don't believe the northbound platform ever got that treatment, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, at least the southbound platform appears to have been lengthened. And the IND-style tile (same pattern as Canal Street; different color: light blue/yellow) is at the north end of the station, indicating where it was lengthened. Work lights did illuminate the station on July 29. And this enabled me to spot an original shield "W" cartouche on the wall near the south end, buried beneath layers of graffitti.
I'm not sure if the northbound platform was lengthened.
Question: Did this station have gap fillers?
They should reopen it, even if it's only used during business hours.
wayne
Why should they reopen it? It would slow down 6 trains and do nothing else, except waste money.
Question: Did this station have gap fillers?
I believe that the southbound platform at Worth St did indeed have gap fillers. Not sure about the northbound platform.
-- Ed Sachs
So does that mean that Brooklyn Bridge and Worth St. were right next door to each other for a number of years before someone thought, "Hey, these two stations are three feet apart, let's shut one of them down."
Yes and no. Worth Street was north of Brooklyn Bridge, and when BB was lengthened it was not only lengthened but relocated northward and the old southern portion - about three car lengths, IIRC - abandoned. The southern portion was on a curve, complete with gap fillers, and relocating it northward helped reduce dwell time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't they also reposition some platforms so they meshed better with the new cars that the TA was about to order? Supposedly thats why the R12&14s were originally sent to the Flushing-because they wouldn't work on the older portions of the IRT main lines [i.e. those built in 1904].
The problem was with the end doors of the cars at the curved stations, like Union Square and South Ferry. With the end vestibule doors, the High Vs and Low Vs were far more out of alignment with the R-12s and above than the remaining Redbirds are with the R-62s and R-142s.
BTW -- would the door positions on the R-12/14/15s be the same as on the R-62s? If I remember right, the doors on each side of those cars were exactly opposite each other, unlike the R-17s through the R-36s, which have the offset doors based on the cab positions.
I'm not sure if the doors on the R-62s are in exactly the same places as on the R-12s and R-14s, but they are directly opposite each other.
BTW, the gap fillers at the abandoned southern end of Brooklyn Bridge station are still there. You can see them from a passing train if you know where to look.
Or stand at the South end of the uptown express platform and look past the partition wall to your left.
** . . . would the door positions on the R-12/14/15s be the same as on the R-62s?**
Not exactly. Although the layout on the sides is dead center on all the above cars, there is a fundamental difference here. The distance between side doors was 17’ 1” on the R12/14/15 cars (and also on R17-through-36 although those cars had the layout shifted 18-1/8” to the left), whereas on the R62 and R62A cars there is a distance of 15’ 9” between side doors.
So we're talking an extra 16 inches between the end doors and the bulkheads then? Not that it matters now since the cars are gone, but it sounds like they would have been within the limits of being able to use the same moving platforms at SF for both models of cars.
Thanks for the information.
Which (If any) RRs in the United States operate with a center third rail?
-Daniel
None. All third rail operations in the United States use outside mounted third rails. There are two basic types in use: Overrunning and Underrunning. The overrunning type is what NYCT and most third rail operations use. The underrunning or Wilgis-Spraue type is used by Metro North (nee New York Central) and SEPTA's Market-Frankford line (nee PTC/PRT), as well as the Docklands Light Rail line in England.
I misstyped the name of the underrunning third rail, so I better correct myself before the Pigs spelling police comes after me.
The name is Wilgis-Sprague third rail.
"I misstyped the name of the underrunning third rail, so I better correct myself before the Pigs spelling police comes after me."
HA!!! Good one!
Isn't it "Wilgus", as in the guy responsible for GCT?
How the hell am I supposed to come after you if I don't know how to spell it myself.
And there's one thing, I don't correct typos. The difference is often obvious (dropped letters, letters next to each other on a keyboard, etc).
Seems my readings of ancient history told me the Nantasket Beach line of the New Haven RR had a center 3rd rail back around the turn of the century. For obvious reasons it was short lived.
Lionels used center running third rail for years, quite sucessfully :)
Though our old set would periodically gap while going through switches.
Anyone else here remember the old buzzing reverser units, etc?
I remember those reverse units all too well; most of my experience being with American Flyer. The AF ones had a terrible inclination to stick and leave you with a dead loco always in the worst place [Hi Mr. Murphy] So went I went back into AF in l974 I converted all my locos to DC with solid state reverse. Works great. Also compatible with my converted HO power trucks on my el/subway trains in s gage.
Lionel Lines
Third Ave Railway and DC Transit.
TARS and DC Transit didn't technically have 3rd rails, it was a tralley wire in a conduit.
To some extant, you can say that both Airtrain and SkyTrain (in BC) have a center third rail, since the 'reaction rail' is what their linear motors use.
-Hank
Conduit track does not use "trolley wire in a conduit". There are positive and negative rails mounted in the conduit structure that feed power and ground to a "plow" that is mounted on the truck frame and projects down into the conduit and picks up the power. Conduit operated cars never return through the running rails, always through the conduit.
Conduit operations were major in Manhattan, and Washington, DC in the US and London, England.
While we are on the subject of conduit operations, some words on plows, plow carriers and operations.
Washington used a narrow plow carrier mounted on the rear of the number 2 truck frame. On single end cars there was no problem, but double end cars had a wicked operations problem. On lines that stub ended and the cars changed ends, the truck that had the plow carrier was on the rear truck in one direction and on the front truck the other direction. This made for interesting operation of electric switches. Conduit electric switches had the contactor rails mounted 55 feet from the switchpoints,(with a white painted box over the slot to mark the location of the contactor) so with the front truck carrying the plow the car was further than optimal for throwing the switch. Both Capital Traction and Washington Railway and Electric instructed motormen to maintain 1 car length between cars at electic switches and a following car could not operate the switch until the preceeding car had fully cleared.
The narrow plow carrier allowed only about 4 inches of lateral movement. Manhattan operators used plow carriers the width of the truck frame, which allowed lateral movement of the plow within the width of the truck frame, and both New York Railways and Third Avenue had joint trackage in places used by both companies, with each company's conduits separate, with two slots between the running rails. Both sytems used pits to remove and attach plows, which was dirty, dangerous work, with moving cars, 600 volts inches from the pitmen, and heavy plows to manhandle.
London used plow carriers the width of the carbody to allow lateral movement of the plow outside the gauge line of the truck. This allowed cars to drop plows at speed, and to pick up a plow without fully stopping.
Thank you for the education. Your response is very interesting.
in brazil... i spent a couple of hours with a reporter and crew from global tv of brazil...they came over to my apartment to film me and the r9 motorman's compartment... it's been a strange experience for me having some people in the media focus on something i built over 20 years ago...
when they were finished shooting here, they told me that they were going into the city to film a segment with philip coppola, the man who has been documenting the design and decoration of all the subway stations... i had heard a lot about phil, and they asked me if i wanted to come along for a ride... in one of the more spontaneous moves in my life, i did... on the way out of my building, several tenants saw me being led away to a waiting van, and must have concluded that i was again having a psychotic episode...
we went into the city, and i regaled them with stories of disloyal subtalkers who have fought me at every turn, and who have tried to have me declared unfit to post here... the reporter apparently recognized my routine, and told me to spare her my captain queeg shtick...
i did learn that brazilians speak portugese, as whenever i stopped speaking they would roll their eyes and speak in a language that did not sound like spanish...
we met up with phil at their offices, and he had brought 3 of the volumes that he has completed... we went to the times square station, and used an entrance that led to the shuttle track, but which had some of the original tile work outside of fare control... they shot quite a bit of the tile work, and then compared phil's drawings with the tile work... his work is very detailed...
all of their filming will probably be boiled down to a 2 or 2 1/2 minute segment on the news... i don't know when it will appear in brazil, but i am checking with greyhound to see if they have an express schedule from port authority to brazil...
on a very personal note... i haven't been in the times square area, or actually the city, in the late afternoon or evening in many years... while they were filming their interview with phil, i was just taking in the whole scene of the people coming and going, and the whole times square environment... it was very eye opening to do something totally different from my regular routine, and it made me very aware of how limited i have allowed my life to become... there are a lot of interesting things and people in the world beyond my very limited horizon... and it is very easy to lose sight of that message, now that i am back here, punching keys on a keyboard, and thinking that i have something of any importance to say...
[on a very personal note... i haven't been in the times square area, or actually the city, in the late afternoon or evening in many years...]
Hey Paul, you don't have to go out of your apartment to check out the people of Times Square. Just click on the following url and you have a live Times Square webcam which reloads itself about every 15 seconds.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/largeimage_cam1.html
thank jeff for that link... i am going to check out that site and see what other cams they have up...
as you know, there is still a big difference between being there and being able to roam around like a little kid and see what's going on, and seeing a picture of it on the internet...
i heard on my intergalactic cat's whisker radio that a sargeant in a certain brooklyn precinct is trying to have a web cam put in his patrol car so that he work his shift from comfort of his home or a local racetrack... last year, the city hired a private consultant at a cost o $7 million to study whether such an arrangement is feasible... yesterday, after 11 months of exhaustive research, the consultant issued a report stating that he didn't know what to recommend and would require another $12 million to gather more facts...
LOL!
Hey Paul, I put together some links of some of my
favorite webcams on a page I made up at
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html
There are some good cams for railfans including a
tram in Zurich, Switzerland; a busy rail station in
Rapperswil, Switzerland; some trolleys in Poland,
Buses in Dublin, Ireland and Belgrade, Yugoslavia;
(we were still bombing Belgrade when I added the
link last year) and a link to a site with a
number of train webcams. On most you have to reload
the pic yourself every few seconds (cmd+R on
WebTv which you have) which will bring the most
recent shot. I had more links but got rid of some
when they weren't working the way they should.
By
the way Paul, I know you're into Mack Buses. I was
at the Transit Museum at Court & Schermerhorn today
and the bookshop had a book all about the history of
Mack Buses!!!
heypaul, glad to see you meet up with the elusive Mr. Coppola. Supposedly, he is hard to pin down. What did you think of his massive volumes? Aren't they really something?
If you get a copy of this Brazilian TV news show, you have to make copies available so we can here how you were dubbed into Portugese.
BTW, I got a call from Derrick last night. He's getting ready for a vacation in Florida, so he won't be around for a week or so. He mentioned getting together at Junior's or some other diner to do some catching up.
Talk with you later,
Doug aka BMTman
it won't be necessary to dub my remarks into portugese, as i am fluent in portugese as well as most of earth's common languages...
[... i was just taking in the whole scene of the people coming and going, and the whole times square environment ... it was very eye opening to do something totally different from my regular routine ...]
My wife & I have been on LI for 25 years. I was a commuter to Manhattan from here for 11, she lived in mid-town. We both look forward to an opportunity to walk the caverns. I also like the stuff that rolls underground, but she prefers the top side rubber tired versions. The point I think is the same ... you need to come back to the City and remember what you've been missing, and you just don't understand that if you do it every day or it's been too long since the last time you did it.
Mr t__:^)
Voce nao sabia que o os Brasileiros falam Portugues? Se voce nao sabe o que eles falaram, voce nao sabe o que eu estou falando.
Que Pasa?
Si Quero Taco Bell???
"Voce nao sabia que o os Brasileiros falam Portugues? Se voce nao sabe o que eles falaram, voce nao sabe o que eu estou falando."
what the hell is this guy talking about???
You didn't know that Brazilians speak Portugese? Then you don't know what he's saying (which is true).
Congratulations, pretty close to what I said. Is that what Alta Vista translates it as? What I wrote exactly was: "You didn't know Brazilians speak Portuguese? If you couldn't understand what he's was saying, you can't understand what I am saying"
Alta Vista usually does a bad job in translating, that's why I figure it's easier to be fluent in Portuguese, which I am.
Mr. Pigs posted a correct translation - he changed first person to third because they were your words, not his.
Ate a proxima.
I didn't use AltaVista.
Why can't the G turn at QP anymore? The center middle track just past the station is still there and to the naked eye it doesn't look like it interferes with the new connection to Queensbridge. Is there more work that needs to be done? Is there a plan to have the G turn at QP again?
The center track north of Queens Plaze isn't connected to the southbound express track anymore. The track only connects to the northbound express track. This is according to Peter J. Dougherty's book from September 22, 1999. The track is now able to hold 1 600' train for layups. Even if it was connected, it would delay E, F, and R Trains. In order for the G Train to turn, it would have to get a line-up at Queens Plaza. That'll take a few moments. It may delay a R Train behind it in the process. Next it must cross infront of the northbound E and F Trains. The E and F Trains will then have to wait for a line-up to clear after the G crossed in front of it. Next the G Train must cross in front of the southbound E and F Trains. That would delay the southbound E and F Trains as it would have delayed the northbound E and F Trains. Finally, 1 more switch for the G Train to get back to the southbound local track. The G Train will have to delay the R Train if one is on the Interlocking. The R Train will be delayed the same way as the E and F were delayed in both directions. Using the center track (if it still existed) would delay every train that runs through. But, once in a blue moon, the interlocking would be clear of all trains. Only once in a blue moon. The G Train should be terminated at Court Square. Maybe the TA should consider moving platforms in the transfer tunnel.
That's the...
running on...
's
perspective.
They can turn it at Qp on evenings, nights and weekends when there is lighter traffic on those lines like they did before. Especially if they do something like sending the F through 63rd during off-hours, which I hear is a possibility.
Why not spend a few (ok a lot) of millions and construct a loop track after QP? It probably would take 5 years to plan 5 year of enviornmental delays and another 5 to build !!
Wow, what a collossal waste of resources that would be, considering the need for service expansion and the want of new lines, not the construction of a mostly useless spur.
-Hank
It was meant as a joke !!!!
But the only thing that I am cusious about is with the G not going to QP, will there be any ADA concerns? You can't just cross the platform.
How many other stations on the G are ADA-compliant? None.
-Hank
I know that there are none now, but with trains on opposite sides of the platform @ QP transfering is easy for the slow walkers, people with canes or crutchs, etc. With G not going there it might be a hardship and the extra time it takes might mean missing a train
You hold the doors, too, don't you? It's not like there won't be another train. And these folks likely make many other subway trips, most without cross-platform transfers. They can handle it.
-Hank
They can handle it, but think of it this way: A passenger boards at a local station. Where they once had a direct train to their destination on the Crosstown line, they now have to take 3 trains, with one long-assed walk! That walk also discouages people from taking the L to the G from Manhattan. I avoid all long transfers (Times Square-8av, Court Sq, Fulton St), and would also avoid the 6-7 ave/14th and 5-6 ave/42nd transfers if they weren't so damned necessary.
We can handle it! That must be the TA's attitude to everyone in this area (including the Eastern Div. We already have no direct service to anywhere on weekends, and now this? Try getting from Ridgewood to just another part of Queens in a decent amount of time!
The only problem with the G terminating at Court Square is that anyone who needs the local trains on Queens Boulevard has to make 2 trasfers. To the E or F and then to the R. What should be done is the G should crossover to the southbound track after an additional T/O gets on at the south end of the train. When the train arrives at QP, it is quickly turned around. The T/O at the north end goes to the south end of the next G.
Why not run a 2 car shuttle Court Sq-Queens Plaza, using only the Brooklyn Bound local track? The G could turn at Court on the Queens Bound track.
Well, as I've mentioned before, perhaps the G could go past Queens Plaza to 46th St/Broadway, then turn around at the crossover before Northern Blvd. The G wouldn't disrupt the express there.
Of course by that point there will be a new local ("V"?) running on that track, so there may not still be room for the G.
Andrew
I want to know if R142 Bombardier is running on #2 line???
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
hey dave, i don't think it is yet. i've been trying to call E 180th to find out. i will take a ride on the 2 to see if it is in E 180th shead. if it isn't its either running or its at another shop i will keep you posted
I tried to hget it at approx 12:30 at Chambers Street. Two different T/O's said that it was not running!!
Have a nice day !!
I work on the Bronx 2/5 every Monday/Tuesday overnight as a lunch relief. Tjhis week I did see one train running light at 116/Lenox heading downtowb. later I saw two complete trains inside the barn (from a running train). They were on the two tracks closest to the actual E180 Station. I do not have the numbers of any of these trains so I dont know which R142 or R142A I saw.
Do you think they will ever convert Woodhaven Blvd.
to an express stop? The ridership at this station is overwhelming.
74th/Broadway is a very busy station on the 7 but no expresses stop there.
Converting that station is impossible due to buildings blocking the way. Woodhaven Blvd could be converted easily by building a trackway behind the present station's wall and constructing a platform over the space now occupied by the local track.
Turnouts already exist, hinting that conversion was probably though about during construction.
I doubt it. If GOs for essential ROW work cause such upset, just imagine what the work involved in reconfiguring the station would cause. Also, folks further east on the line would go atomic if the existing 5-stop express run were split. When I took the train from 75Av into Manhattan 12 years ago it was bad enough most rush hours because the trains invariably slowed to a crawl just west of 63Dr and lumbered to JH. A lot of times a local or 2 would pass us while we tortoised.
Adding a couple more locals would be a better fix for clearing the platforms, as would better synchronizing the bus schedules to the subway so there wouldn't be as much of a lag between when folks hit the platform and when a train came to get them.
...better synchronizing the bus schedules to the subway...
The railroads can barely do that with suburban and rural bus routes, with the subway and city (or DOT) buses its almost impossible. Also, during the rush hour traffic is so bad buses rarely arrive on time, so even if the trains kept the schedule the buses couldn't. For example, the Q53 and Q11 frequently reach their ultimate terminal off-schedule (either late or early).
I got theese from a very reliable source.
1)R-40 slants will be returning to the westend line
in September,with the R-68a going back to the Q.
Anybody know if its true ,and why?
2)Floor replacemets on the R-32,will cause some
extra train sets to be sent to the Jamacia yard
Does this mean we might see an R-68 on the queens
Blvd express?
Do you think theese will happen ?
Peace from Domingo
Bhurst,
Please tell me the "B" will be slanted again! These ARE the "B" trains. Anyway, they're faster, & better. Cool.
JDL
Unless the "reliable source" is in Operations Planning's car assignment section, it's likely to be wrong.
David
Well, if the R40 and R68 swap cars again it is likely that the Q will be running a longer route or more difficult than that of the B Line's. The reason that they swaped the cars in the first place was to give the 30+ year cars some rest with a shorter easier route on a line that doesn't run 24/7.
That's the...
running on...
's
speculations.
I believe the part about the floor replacement. I was on an R32 with its floor completely cut up -- big gashes the other day. Can't be good for the underfloor.
I'd like to see more of those black floors. They're cool, and give the old cars a little more ooomph.
The Mushy Floor syndrome has apparently spread to at least one R42 pair - that being #4902-4903! The floors there are despicable! Terrible workmanship; all kinds of patches, depressions and seams; and boy is it ever MUSHY! It needs HELP soon! Last seen on the "J", Saturday, July 29, 2000.
wayne
08/02/2000
R-1 #103 which is a designated museum car was unusual because there were axiflow fans in place of the usual paddle ceiling fans. For those too young who haven't seen it, The deck portion of the ceiling became a drop ceiling where the axiflow's were mounted. The usual clerestory vents were replaced with horizontal louvers. The typical R1-9 bare bulbs were the same although the ones running down the middle of the ceiling were almost flush with the ceiling.
Now why was #103 given the "AXIFLOW" treatment? Was it because:
A) Testing axiflow fans for future use starting with the R-15 order.
B) Possible "modernization" rehab of R1-9 cars.
C) What do you think?
Bill "Newkirk"
My answer is D. I don't know. Will be pleased to find out. Did you ever ride 484 [sure that was the one]. Had Bullseye light fixtures a la PCC, twice as many lights per car but still not as bright. Don't know why they did that either but thought I'd mention it to share the idea.
I always thought that R4 #484's lighting scheme looked better than the bare bulb design seen on most pre-war cars. Some of the original BMT Standards had several different and nice-looking light fixtures as well.
While we're on this subject, isn't a little weird that the TA chose R1, R4 and R7 (flourescent lights as the R10 test car) cars with unusual lighting schemes as the ones to preserve, while scrapping the regular R cars?
Well, they DID preserve #3184 and also #6387 with the flourescent light (#8506 too), as well as some IRT cars.
The interior of #484 is VERY nice except the green paint makes it look too dim. A better choice would have been a creme yellow or off-white to reflect more of the reduced light.
I still think it's a sin that they scrapped #1208!
wayne
I suppose they did so to show some variations. There ARE some conventional R1-9 saved..I hope? I read here that 1208 was scrapped. Were any of 800,1000, 1440 saved? Belive they were in museum fleet in 70's.
1000 is still in Coney Island
800, 1440 along with 175 are at Seashore.
175's at Seashore?
I gotta go back then. It must be well hidden because in two visits, I didn't see it!
--Mark
I missed it too when I was at Seashore-- until I was leaving and heading back to my car...
Anyone ever see the R-9 at the State Museum in Albany? I made the mistake of saving it for last the one time I was there. Since the rest of the museum was so good I spent longer than I had anticipated. When I got to the R-9 they made the announcement they were closing an so I only got inside it for about 15 seconds. Although it seemed to be restored nicely it had fiberglass seats and the paint scheme they last had in the 70's.
That's OK - that would be the only example of an R-7a or R-9 car with the 1968 modifications. That was a significant change to the fleet.
As ugly as they were, they should have saved a silver/blue R-7a/R-9 with the pistachio green interior. #1689, the other car (not counting #1575) in that range has the original wicker seats as opposed to the fiberglas ones.
wayne
A lot of people don't like it but I think the Pistachio green was the nicest interior color they had. As for the MTA exteriors, oh well, at least it was clean for a while. Used to be a treat to catch an old IRT car that had the light green interiors back in the 50's. Steinways only I believe.
Unless they've redone the inside since the last time I saw it, 1689 has the two-tone blue interior finish which many of the other R-7s and R-9s had.
I think that's a non-collection car that was once a diner in Texas.
They use it for pahhhts storage.
It's a pahhhts storage cahhhr.:-)
R-9 1689 reposes at the Shoreline Trolley Museum, lovingly restored and operable. It even has some older destination signs which were removed from most roller curtains as the IND was being expanded.
In addition, R-4 484 had an experimental PA system installed. You can still see the mikes above the trigger boxes.
Back in the days of the early IND cars, just about everyone wore hats when out and about. Perhaps they were looking at ways of minimizing the chances of millinery/air impeller conflicts.
I was designing the a project about 2 years ago on the 2ave subway..Also a few day 's ago I was talking to a Transit insider on the topic.. I designed the line's express to go from 125 to 72st followed by 57th and 42nd and Grandst..
But from what he was saying They are now thinking about a SuperExpress Station's as follow's..
>125th
>57th
>42nd
>Grand st
And all local stop's south of this point!
I like the Idea we do need some type of SuperSevice in Manhattan and a idea of that Grand st
to 42nd in about 4 Min's is very cool but like very thing about this new subway it's not final yet!
What do you guy's think on the topic? >>>RRR
Well make sure you have 2 local tracks each way man! Express direct from 57 to 125? The Second Avenue Subway is to relieve crowds not, "There's an express a few blocks from here that doens't stop anywhere here.
That's the...
running on...
's
opposition.
Given the choice, I'd rather have two track lines on 2nd and 10th Avenues than a four track line on 2nd and nothing on 10th. The TA has too many tracks as it is. Unless a whole bunch of people shift from other modes, service would be too infrequent on all lines.
Unless they take my advice and "sell" the BMT Broadway line to the suburbs for a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan, with Metro North merging into from the Express Tracks under Central Park and the LIRR curving into the local tracks from the Penn tubes at Madison Square.
Yep there is a local Which stop's at 125th -106st-86th-72nd-57th st.....
I think Queens Blvd IND Expresses have tighter headways, at least in the period from 7 to 8pm.
I took an E from 34th at around 7pm, wasn't too crowded and there was plenty of seats but I opted for the window. This was an R46 E (they've been popping up lately)but there was nothing blocking the front cab window so I could still see. When we passed the 63rd street connection I could see what looked like new signals being installed on the tunnel tracks. I assume the resignaling is one of the main reasons for the upcoming Queens BLVD G.O.
They will have to do something about those GT's, you hit alot of them on the Queens Blvd and because of that a train has a hard time keeping a steady speed.
Anyway it wasn't too crowded of a trip and I got off and hung around 74th and Roosevelt for about 10 or 15 minutes to see how many other R46 E's were out there.
E's and F's Queens bound came every few minutes, and they weren't too crowded. All the other E's were R32 and F's R46.
I went upstairs to get the number 7 train. Again I am reminded of why I dislike that particular line so much.
Waited about 8 minutes for a 7 (local) which came as an express went by on the middle. It was packed and I couldn't fit in.
Had to wait about 6 more minutes for another Flushing bound 7 train, seeing a guy spit onto the tracks (and perhaps on some unfortunate soul down below).
It was crowded but there was enough room in the first car. As usual it was warm, A/C sucks in the 7 train Redbirds (older Redbirds on the 2 and 5 have better A/C for some reason).
I went over to the front window but a couple was there and lets just say they were getting it on at the front window. They weren't even looking out! I've never seen that before, but this is the 7 train!
They did get off at Junction Blvd so I was able to get the window.
Could see Shea was busy with a Mets game.
And at the end of line I'm treated to the mess called Flushing. Wendy's still closed, Caldor still vacant and not too many people around except for the asian teen gangs that hang out there and the homeless guy who lives in front of the vacant Caldor.
Had to also dodge food and garbage on the ground on the way to the bus stop. Flushing is a mess, no wonder why these businesses are pulling out.
And as to why the 7 is rated number 1 I'll never know, it's service is less frequent than Queens Blvd, the trains are hot, cramped, slow, and packed like sardines.
I know many people like the 7, but to me it is one of my least favorite lines.
I hear ya. I don't like the #7 rustbirds, and "frequent" service depends on whether you get on or off at a local or an express stop. My favorite line would be the (F) because of adequate service, 100% R-46s, and a number of my frequent destinations happen to be along the (F) somehow.
Was on the SIR today and have several questions about it. The R44 OH trains seem to have a rough ride, does this have to do with the gravel railbed? I rode it to Tottenville and then to St George.
Actually SIR is not that slow, it looked like we were going 40mph or more in spots in the southern portion. SIR is a pretty nice little railroad, it's scenic and there are alot of branch tracks.
There seems to be a branch track in particular, somewhere between Atlantic and Tottenville, it branches off to the north onto a vacant site. Was there a factory there at one time?
I like riding the SIR (Staten Island Railway). It's a very scenic railroad, just a shame there's no front window (full width cabs).
Also what is required to become a Staten Island Railway T/O?
They have a rough ride mostly because of flat spots on the wheels, and those are rare. It was probably just the car you were in. All the track is new (<5 years old). Nassau, the only industrial spur still connected, is the site of the former ATT Bell Metals, a metal recovery center, formerly a smelter. The site is now a technology and metal recovery center for Lucent Technologies, which is a subsidiary of ATT.
None of the other industrial spurs are still connected. The last one disconnected was the one for the SI Advance in Grasmere. Since the railroad is embargoed, there's no point to the maintainance of the switches that connect the non-MOW spurs, so they were removed. And with practically no one on the line even remotely needing rail service, it's likely to stay that way.
-Hank
The site is now a technology and metal recovery center for Lucent Technologies, which is a subsidiary of ATT.
Lucent is a former part of AT&T, separated from its parent in the 1996 trivestiture. The only relationship the two have is that Lucent is one of many suppliers of communications technology to AT&T.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is meant by the railroad being "embargoed"? I'm guessing this means that it isn't authorised to carry freight. But it seems like an odd term. And "non-MOW"?
As long as it is run by NYCT, clearly passenger service should be the sole focus. As for the Lucent siding, is it used? Is it going to remain, or will it soon be removed as well?
Embargoed means that there is no way for anything to get on or off the railroad. There's no connection to any other system whatsoever from the Tottenville line.
-Hank
I presume that there is no longer a connection (even vestigal) to the North Shore? There were always tail tracks at St. George, complete with third rail, just like the North Shore was only asleep.
No, the connection is still there, third rail and all, at least as of last December. It's quite visible from the sidewalk above.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's there, but it is blocked just east of St. George. The line is also washed out in the Snug Harbor area, encroached on in West Brighton, and having a bridge built over it at Jersey St.
-Hank
[I presume that there is no longer a connection (even vestigal) to the North Shore? There were always tail tracks at St. George,
complete with third rail, just like the North Shore was only asleep.]
The North Shore is asleep, all right - the Big Sleep. Parts of the right of way have been eroded or washed out. If there were any plans to resume service, which there aren't, it would be an extremely expensive job indeed.
I haven't looked lately, but it seems like the new baseball stadium (SI Yankees) now being constructed would eliminate any thought (not that there is one that exists) of ever having any sort of service or light rail on the North Shore. I live on the North Shore, and often daydream about how, had things worked out differently in the 20's, I could have boarded a train in West Brighton and commuted to lower Manhattan. The ferry is nice, but time consuming. Then again, had there been a subway connection from Brooklyn to SI, how would the boro have changed even back then and would the appeal be the same.
(sort of NIMBY oriented, I admit).
The stadium is built over the tracks, with sufficient clearence for the trains. SIR still uses that section of track as the tail of a wye to turn trains (using track 10 at St. George and the main line as the other legs)
-Hank
I took a peek as the bus pulled onto Richmond Terrace tonight, and could see the tracks clearly passing under/through the structure and was planning on correcting myself, but you beat me to it.
Yeah it felt like the wheels had flat spots and it reminded me of some of the LIRR cars. I noticed that some of the other cars rode smoother but in general the SIR R44 OH's give a rough ride. Wonder why they do and not R44's for use on the subway.
How often do you see R-44SIs floating over to CI Yard getting new wheels? (just a joke, I know they have their own shop in Clifton).
Plus, these cars are always outside (exposed to rain, leaves, rocks on the rails, etc), not sure if that contributes to the flat spots but it seems to be the only real difference.
They haven't floated the cars in years, if they ever did. If a car needs work that can't be done at Clifton (and they can do nearly everything) it goes to CI by truck.
And before they put new wheels on, they true them.
-Hank
Rain can possibly but I wouldn't say commonly contributes to flat spots; leaves, definitely. They can cause a train to slide. As for the ride on SIR being lumpy my guess would be that the ballasted roadbed gives more bounce. It has to be meticulously maintained to be smooth. Have they gone to welded rail yet? Jointed rail is quite bouncy [my memories of the differences when I rode on cabooses.]
I have another question: If the Staten Island Railway only has fare control at St. George, then are all rides between other stations free? Can you go from, say, Nassau to Tottenville for free? Do people regularly take advantage of it?
Is there a reason they couldn't have subway style fare control? I'm guessing the TA figures it wouldn't be worth it.
No fare control at the stations because they would then need to be staffed. Yes, all rides that are not to or from St. George are freebies, and ridership is up because of it.
-Hank
Tompkinsville ridership has gone through the roof because of it, the only thing that keeps everybody from getting on/off there instead of St. George is the close connections with the ferry, and a 30 minute wait if the train/ferry were missed. That is why during the morning rush no trains stop there peak direction, and the afternoon rush no trains stop in either direction.
Not true in either case. Most rush-hour trains skip the stop, and always have. Before the fare was eliminated on-train, there were collectors on the platforms at Grasmere and Tompkinsville during the AM rush. Both stations have just a single stairway exit. Passengers exiting at intermediate stops usually got away with a free ride, since the conductors and trainmen could not determine who was getting off where while they were on the train. All other customers paid when they got off at St. George. Non-rush, only boarding pasengers paid at St. George, all others paid the fare on the train.
There are enough businesses and schools in the area that many of the passengers who got on or off at Tompkinsville have legitimate intrests there.
-Hank
They can use MVMs and iron maidens.
They didn't because the money lost with free rides isn't worth the cost of installing fare controls, modifying many stations so that there would be room for it and securing a few stations accessible from the street through illegal but possible means.
Iron Maidens are legitimate blocks to disabled access. Additionally, bikes are allowed on trains all times except rush hours. There's also the matter of the ROW being mostly accessible, that is, many homes have backyards that open out on to the ROW, with only small fence there.
-Hank
There's also the matter of the ROW being mostly accessible
That's the illegal but possible means I was talking about.
There can be camera, and intercom and buzz gates to communicate with the "remote agent" at St. George who can buzz the person in.
All in all, not worth the money or the effort.
All they need to get around that is one fare inspector to drop aboard once in a while? Don't know if that would work in the NYC area? Tickets could be bought at stores if nothing else [as I found done in some European cities]
But there's no way to do it with Metrocard, unless they decide to make hand-held readers, which I don't see happening.
-Hank
Or you could create a machine to issue a paper ticket with a date and time stamp on it whenever someone swipes his metrocard. Still, would be a lot of trouble to not much purpose.
08/19/2000
[Or you could create a machine to issue a paper ticket with a date and time stamp on it whenever someone swipes his metrocard. Still, would be a lot of trouble to not much purpose.]
That would be a lot of trouble. For the small amount of fares lost to people riding "inter' Staten Island, it wouldn't pay to have all stations fitted for HEET's* as well as other measures.
*HEET-High Entry Exit Turnstile
"Bill Newkirk"
I agree. Both paper ticket proof of payment and secure fare zone systems are too much bother for the money involved.
Sound as if the MTA is ripe for a "CLASS-ACTION-SUIT" for the benifit of the rest of the City to receive equal Intra boro service. Is this the result of a city counsel decision ? We are talking lost revenue and incouraging LAW breaking.
avid
Actually, I think it's seen the other way around.
SI residents have sometimes claimed to be underserved by the transit system. The one familiar example is the lack of a subway connection. They also just generally complain about their treatment by the NYC government, to the point where there was a fairly serious secession movement a few years ago. (One of several, I think.)
Whatever you think about their claims, the city sometimes tries to compensate for the grievances. I believe that's one reason the SI ferry remains free, and my guess is that it's probably one reason why no one will bother with collecting intra-SI fares, even if a cost-effective method is found.
SI residents have sometimes claimed to be underserved by the transit system. The one familiar example is the lack of a subway connection. They also just generally complain about their treatment by the NYC government, to the point where there was a fairly serious secession movement a few years ago. (One of several, I think.)
Whatever you think about their claims, the city sometimes tries to compensate for the grievances. I believe that's one reason the SI ferry remains free, and my guess is that it's probably one reason why no one will bother with collecting intra-SI fares, even if a cost-effective method is found.
No offense intended to any Staten Island residents, but if they really did secede from NYC, they'd be in for a very unpleasant surprise - their residential property tax bills would increase dramatically, as much as 300% in some cases. Manhattan's huge commercial base holds taxes down for residential property elsewhere in the city. As an independent municipality, mostly residential Staten Island would lose that subsidy (for that's exactly what it is).
Try this .
A} Borrow 2 or 3 sets of LIRR M-1s.
B} Install the bus type collection boxes , take cards, tokens or exact fare.
C} Adjust doors to open all at terminals exit only , Last stop all off .
D} This entrance would be under the jaundice eye of the conductor.
E} Perhaps this could be a potential brainstormer topic.
F} Lets squeeze S.I. like a grape
G} or modify a few sets of R/44 with the same setup on the doors and farebox.
H} For NON-RUSH use only.
avid
avid
Now your adding more crew since the SIR is OPTO except rush hours.
In the old days you had 3 men or even 4 men crews on the train for fare collection. The got rid of the Brakeman and Trainman positions.
SIR is not OPTO yet. They use 2-man crews on all except 5-car rush trains (3-man crews). There are still 'old hands' left from the B&O days.
-Hank
The majority of the track is now welded-in-place, that is, it was laid as panel track, and the joints were later welded.
-Hank
While going to Staten Island I got an N train (after changing from a D) at Dekalb. Went it's usual route but before 36th it was announced that due to track work the C.I. bound N will be running on the B line as an express. I didn't see a G.O. for that during the week (only weekend).
So I boarded an R train at 36th where the conductor announced a transfer to the N train at 59th. Did not see any signs up for this, and people were waiting for a Coney Island bound N at 59th which will never come.
Took the R to 86th and got the S79 to S.I.
BTW, is that express run on West End any good? That N was a Hippo (R68).
well from what i heard yesterday the N was not running express on the B line, but as a local. i dont know the point of this, might have something to do with the new signals theyre putting in on the west end line (possible during the weekend go's?). anyway, i saw them doing trackwork at 8th ave on the N line, dont know much about any other place.
I got to experience an express run on the West End once, on a B train when the slant R-40s were still assigned to it. It was OK, nothing spectacular. The Manhattan-bound local track was being rehabilitated between, IIRC, Bay Parkway and 62nd St.
Here is a link to a NY Times article.
Enjoy !!!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/a/AP-Train-Auction.html
Poor 614.......Those fall excursions that Iron Horse used to run up here where fun to experience-met many many railfans that way, hanging out by one of the overpasses. It was neat,too, to hear that whistle if I was running around in town-amazing how you could hear that several miles away over al the traffic....
Those 614 excursions through Middletown to Port Jervis were fun to ride, too, although my old video camera died on one of those trips.
I guess that's the end of the Iron Horse specials in October .....
--Mark
Yeah I do remember the G being able to turn around at QP. I was able to program an R46 and sure enough, it said G Crosstown local, G to Queens plaza. Unfortunately I forgot the code.
I have 2 more signs to report. One is at the 15/16th PATCO station. On the mezzanine leve, between the 2 stairways of the east fare area there is a little room. There is a wooden door and upon the door is a sign labeled "Porter". Am I to assume that there was a porter stationed at this station. I also took a mini fieldtrip to the Spring Garden Station and they have an old SEPTA map that still lists Reading Terminal and Suburban Station.
No. Porter is an archaic euphemism for janitor; it is/was probably a broom/mop closet.
Still, it is anachronistic.
1) I plan to wait with chuchubob on the platform for the 9:58 train from NYC. Should I make a little cardboard sign with SUBTALK on it or are you making one?
2) Should we refer to eashother by real name or screen name.
3) What is the plan?
4) How much do SEPTA day passes cost and how do they work with the zone system?
4) The DayPass costs $5.00 and it is valid for unlimited travel during a single day on any scheduled City Transit Division route and for a one-way trip on any regional rail train.
The DayPass is a valid base fare on all City Transit routes and the City Zone portion of Routes 108, 121, 124, and 125. If a DayPass is presented for fare payment outside the City portion of a route, zone charges apply for each zone traveled beyond the City fare zone.
(copied and pasted from septa.org)
1. [Should I make a little cardboard sign with SUBTALK on it]
Go for it. You will be there before we are.
2. Real names are the way to go.
3. Head over to the SEPTA museum/store at 1234 Market St., and check it out. Buy our passes and plot the course for the day, using our collective ideas and wants. The headways on a weekend will determine somewhat what we do. By doing the museum/store first, we don't have to worry about getting back to Center City before they close. I have printed out your sample plan and will bring it along. I have never been on PATCO before, so I'm interested in doing that. I've been on the BSS and the MFL before, but with non-railfans (it was just transportation to them), so I want to check them out again.
4. As noted by chuckubob: Check www.septa.com.
5. We will *not* be touring Camden, NJ !
A City Struggles to Survive
See you all at the SEPTA Museum/Store at 1234 Market St., Saturday , Aug. 5. 10:10 am.
You'll be able to see pleanty of camden from the nice, cool PATCO train. If we do nothing else I want to:
A) Take the BSL to fern Rock
B) Take MFL to Bridge Pratt
C) Ride ridge Line
I have never done any of those.
Hi Mike:
I'll ride all of those lines with you. On the MFSL we can
grab the railfan window if nobody else is there. At Pratt st. we can be the first ones on the train and definitely grab the railfan window.
Might be nice to stay on to 69th St, and then come back towards center city. The BSL has no raifan window because of the full width
front cab, so it's not as much fun. You are only able to look out the
side windows to really see anything!
Chuck Greene
The BSS that I rode to see the UP E9's last Friday had a railfan window and a seat. There was too much reflection to take photographs or video, but it was fine for sitting and looking out the front through the full width cab.
A side trip on P&W and/or rt 101/102 Media/Sharon Hill trolleys could be considered at 69th St. I didn't save Jersey Mike's original (somewhat presumptuous) proposed itinerary, but I think he included a Sharon Hill trip, and I also thought the itinerary was worthy of consideration.
Trackless trolleys (trolley busses) run on Frankford Ave, so some participants might wish to at least see/photograph them at Bridge/Pratt.
A subway surface trip is a must.
MFSE end to end is appropriate, and is assumed, since Bridge/Pratt and 69th St have already been mentioned by others. The bucolic surface run through Milbourne to 69th is refreshing after leaving the elevated cityscape of West Philly.
Ridge Ave subway continuing to Fern Rock sounds good, too.
With all of this, there should still be plenty of time for PATCO, but timing would have to be right for one way PATCO/one way NJT Atlantic City line to (from) Lindenwold. The NJT line is worthwhile for the Delair Bridge crossing and the approach and entrance to Frankford Junction.
Bob
Whatever we can squeeze in for the day will be fine. I'll go along
with anything you guys want to do. It will be fun to meet some of the "faceless names" of the subtalkers!
Chuck Greene
Last Monday when I was killing time by riding PATCO I was waiting for the turnaround at Lindenwold when I saw the Philly bound NJT train pulling into the station. Well our PATCO train gout out first, but while stopped at Woodcrest it blew by us at like 50 mph. However there is a 30mph PSR going into the "hole" and our train was catching it just as we pulled into the Haddonfield stop. The NJT train had 4 Comet IV coaches and I could see that the LCD signs were updated to the line. We almost cuaght it again out of Haddonfield, but it went off down the Bridge Branch. Very exciting all around.
Last Friday when I got to Lindenwold to take PATCO/BSS to see the UP E9's, an NJT train was in the station, so I went to see it. The flashing sign on the side of the car nearest me said local to Philadelphia. The train then went to Atlantic City.
Bob
In part 15 of JMAPQAtS I was wondering about subway brakes and if they are different from brakes on real trains. I know that the presure on trains is about 80-90 psi. On PATCO trains the pipe pressure is around 150 psi. Do subway trains work on the same negitive pressure reduction system or do they use a positive pressure system like a truck or bus?
There are three types of brake systems in use today. The railroad type you are referring to, the 26 schedule, uses a brake pipe reduction system to apply brakes on all cars of a train, whether or not they have air compressors. In order to supply air that isn't there on these cars, the brake pipe must be FULLY charged, a process which on some very long freights, can take almost seven minutes to accomplish per car. An auxilary reservoir is located on each car. These reservoirs store the air for use in service braking as well as a provision to provide an emergency application. This is the reason the TA rulebook as well as railroad require the train to be charged and applied in emergency before removing the handbrakes. The collision at Church Avenue involving the runaway R9 cars, which employed the ME23 type valve is a good example.
The Second system found here and at PATH is SMEE. All cars have air reservoirs to store main reservoir air from the compressor, whether or not on that compressor is found on that car. Once the brake pipe is charged, on 90 psi on most SMEE and 110 on R44s, the emergency contactors close and the fun begins.
Go back to the brake pipe reduction for a moment here. Because the brake pipe not only charges the train, but controls the service and emergency functions, the auxilary reservoir is now diveded into three sections. Once the train is fully charged, the emergency res, the service portion and the brake pipe portion are all equal. On the TA work train equipment, this is 70 PSI. Once the brake valve handle is moved from the charge position (release) to a service application position, lets say a 10 pound reduction, the auxilary reservior service portion will drop down to 60 PSI. Now there is a ten pound imbalance between the chambers inside the reservoir and a piston slides clear of a port and you will get an application of time and a half of the reduction (25 PSI to the cylinders). Here you can not get another application until the auxilary reservoir has been recharged, by moving the valve to the charge position, thereby releasing the brakes. The emergency air portion will always stay near the brake pipe's maximum charge PSI. YOU GET A ONE SHOT DEAL TO APPLY THE BRAKES. An overreduction is a waste of air; not enough reduction is what is needed to control these type trains.
SMEE on the other hand is variable: the straight air pipe, independant of the brake pipe can be filled or vented without losing control of the train. Air is constantly introduced to the train's main and supply reservoirs regardless of the position of the brake valve. The emergency vent valve ensures that maximum PSI goes to the wheels, regardless of the position of the valve or even a rupture in the straight air pipe. A rapid reduction of air in the brake pipe for both types will result in an emergency brake application.
The third type and perhaps my favorite of operating all three was the P-Wire setup. A current is generated by a p-wire generator and is passed through a variable potentiometer in the brake console and run from the head end of the train, looped through the rear end and back to the front. Any break in the current, whether from low voltage, an undesired uncoupling or or the variation in the console position, will result in the application of the brakes electronically. The M1 cars on the LIRR and Metro North use this setup, the TA retired this setup, which was installed on R44, R46 and SOAC cars ending in 1991.
Well, I attended the Baltimore Maglev presentation last night (Aug. 1). There were about 100 people there. For a mere $3.6 billion ($82M/mile), the Maryland MTA proposes to build a 37-mile elevated (on steel piers) Maglev line between Camden Yards in Baltimore and Union Station in Washington with one stop at BWI Airport. It would run either along I-95, the Balt.Wash. Parkway, or the Amtrak/Penn line. They talked about how there would be 33,000 boardings a day, at $26.00 per one-way ticket and how useful it would be to Maryland, DC and Virginia. To me it sounded, as a 40-mile line in itself, ridiculous. There was also mention of competing systems in other cities, but the emphasis was on its usefulness in Maryland.
When they took questions, for about ½ hour, every comment was a complaint about how ridiculous it was. Some of the complaints were that it was useful to no one who lived in Maryland, since you could take the local train for $5.00 to Washington, that the German government has already spent $2B only to abandon the whole idea for regular steel-rail trains, that the idea of a 40-mile elevated line (!?!) almost exclusively for out-of-town business people is crazy when they can’t even get the regular trains to run on the ground successfully, and that the 90-dB noise level from 50 feet away is hard to stomach.
After it quieted down, a new set of commenters gave what sounded like planned speeches about how great it was, how many jobs it would mean, and how it would give us a leg up on brilliant new technology. I looked at the roster of attendees later, and many were from unions, contractors, and state agencies. I think their plan was to let the “little people” get the complaints out of the way and then act like they were the majority. I especially suspected that when the first “jobs” speaker was applauded by about half (the vested interest half) of the audience.
Finally, I figured the actual (not necessarily sinister) purpose of the line. The competing areas, Pittsburgh, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Los Angeles, Cape Canaveral, Atlanta, and DC/Baltimore are competing for the opportunity to build the first demonstration Maglev project. The purpose of the Maglev is to be a replacement for air travel between big cities. There is probably planning (over the next 100 years) for a series of elevated lines between all the big cities. Some of these demos are also big money losers, like Cape Canaveral, or New Orleans (over Lake Ponchartrain), or Las Vegas (from the Airport to downtown). The DC /Baltimore at least might come close to breaking even and be used by a few people. If it becomes popular, it could be extended to Phila, NYC, Boston, Richmond, Charlotte, etc. replace most air travel between those cities. Of course, the Pittsburgh one could be extended to Philadelphia, Cleveland, NYC, Boston, Washington (but skipping Baltimore, maybe). And the LA one from LAX to Ontario to Riverside could also be extended to San Diego and Santa Barbara.
Apparently, it has already been decided that SOMEONE is going to get this tax money for construction and assorted boondoggles, so MD-MTA figures it might as well be DC/Baltimore. So the purpose of the meeting was to satisfy some FRA requirement that the “public” should be allowed to let off steam, and that the amount of complaining might help the Fed. Railroad Admin. decide which will be constructed with the least hassle.
My final take is that -- leaving technology aside -- if a demonstration system is needed to see how well Maglev will work over the next 100 years, DC/Balto is the best place, because it would get a lot a real world use, almost as much as the Lexington Avenue line between 8 and 9 AM :-). And 50% more than the Light Rail line in Baltimore. While 33,000 (business expense account) boardings equally distributed among all three stations may be optimistic (considering that they expect – get this – all but 120 rides per day to be diversions from cars and only 120 from previous transit riders), the number of people who will ride over Lake Ponchartrain each day is probably closer to 330 and the number who will go from Pittsburgh Airport to Downtown and Monroeville (again only 3 stops probably) is also limited. The reason there is so few stops is that, because it is a demonstration project, the train must be able to run at 240 mph for at least 3 minutes. The Maryland one plans to reach top speed for 6-10 minutes.
Now as to technology, if it is so useful to build elevated lines 30 feet wide for hundreds of miles, why haven’t they done it already?? Why hasn’t Amtrak built an elevated line from Philadelphia to New York and run trains at 120 mph. I think they would be great, but if it has never been feasible before, why would Maglev be feasible. I would think building a fast el train (like the DC Metro) between two big cities using steel rails might be the first thing to attempt. If $2B was already spent in Germany and then they abandoned it, why will we be more successful? Finally, if this is really realistic why haven’t airlines or bus companies tried to do it? (To answer myself, it is because the DoT wants to have Maglev obviate the need for more airports and air traffic control systems, and slow the increase in expressway construction between the big cities.
The good side is: if this works out, I can envision two-“track” elevated structures connecting all big cities, so that anyone going less than 600 miles will take the Maglev train instead of a plane. And people who don’t like planes could go across country by taking enough trains. And people could land in the biggest cities then take a Maglev train to others. Hmm...Sounds like the fast trains in Germany now. People land in Frankfurt, then use their Lufthansa ticket to take a train to Cologne, Nuremburg, Dusseldorf, Stuttgart, Saarbrucken, etc. even though each of those cities has a (relatively small) airport with scheduled service.
Finally, I got a CD-ROM with all their documentation to take home... Cool!
As I said in a previous posting about this total boodoggle of a project: Ain't gonna happen.
Amtrak and CSX own the current railroad ROW's and are not likely to allow their corridors to be be used, dispite the MTA's participation. Mag-Lev could just affect the two railroads approach to MARC service, which CSX would love to see go away forever.
The B-W Parkway is OUT. The Feds won't allow it in their part of the Parkway. If they won't allow widening of the highway because "It would destroy the senic vistas the parkway has." , then they won't allow Mag-Lev.
Why the MTA allowed themseves to be dragged into this boondoggle is purely political.
I realized at the meeting that SOMEONE is going to get approval from the FRA. There isn't one city with an easy-to-accomplish proposal. It's apparently a foregone conclusion that some city is going to get to waste the money, it's just still a tossup as to which one is the winner(?).
The planned ROW is not inside the B-W Pkwy property. Landowners next to the B-W Parkway want Maryland to get it so maybe the land adjacent to it can be sold at high prices. This could be why the developer of the Mills shopping malls (Franklin, Potomac, Sawgrass, Arundel Mills -- which is adjacent to the B-W Pkway--, etc.) is really gung ho about it.They could get a station in their mall, they could sell off some land at a good price (eminent domain may not be available to the MTA).
Note that there is no intention of using the ultra-convenient and direct CSX ROW, probably because CSX sees no reason to have anything to do with it. Using Amtrak's ROW means no private company needs to be consulted. Being next to the Pkwy also means that people with land that became less valuable when I-95 was built and Columbia, MD, became the attractive area to be in suddenly have more valuable land.
Heck, I think just using such an incredibly unproven and power-intensive system with a new fixed elevated ROW incompatible with every other railroad system is similar to the Concorde airplane. But at least the Concorde doesn't have its own fixed ROW. Is the Maglev really necessary? Couldn't they just be a fixed electric rail line with high quality trains like the German ICE trains?
But as I said before, a Maglev demo proeject is a done deal. It just needs to be decided where it going to be built.
Fortunately, I'd imagine that eventually this idea, in whatever city, will die before actual money gets spent. A lot of politicians from somewhere else will enjoy taking credit for killing such a dumb idea.
But this stupid maglev idea will never really die. We'll knock it over and somewhere else is will pop back up. Auggghh! I hope Amtrak has the intelligence to be quietly lobbying against this.
What's truly sad and pathetic about this Maglev BS is that for $3.6 billion we could do a whole lot to improve Amtrak service in important corridors around the country.
$500 million should build us a new line from Old Saybrook to Westerly and shave 25 minutes off of Boston - New York running times.
$500 million should also suffice for removing the worst of the speed restrictions on Amtrak's south end and save another 15 or 20 minutes. If the curves were worked out of the line areound Odenton, BWI, and the B&P tunnels, it could easily be a 20 minute run Baltimore to DC with Acela equipment.
$1 billion would get us a high speed line (110 mph) from Washington to Charlotte. Another $1 billion could electrify this and turn it into a 150 mph plus corridor.
$500 million each could turn either the Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinatti-Indiandapolis, or St. Louis Corridor's into 110 mph lines. It would also enable high speed Turbo service to Buffalo from NYC or rebuild the Vancouver-Seattle-Portland-Eugene Corridor to better standards.
I think you get the drift ... what a boondoggle. An elevated "rail" line creating an eyesore wherever it goes, loud, unpredictable in snowy weather, incompatible with everything else.
Andrew Byler
I was looking at Michael Adler's el maps and have a few questions:
1. What streets did the 9th Ave. El follow south of the end of 9th Ave? Also north of the end of 9th Ave?
2. Same question for the 6th Ave. at the south end.
3. Ditto for the 2nd Ave. El and the 3rd Ave. El south of Chatham Sq.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
WS
1) Nineth Ave El followed Greenwich Street. (In front of 145 Greenwich Street, the old ERA HQ)
3) 2nd Ave El wound up on Water Street after Chatham Sq
3rd Ave El followed Park Row, in front of the IRT substation next to that Federal Correctional Facility (the one that is always under heavy guard)
One slight change -- the Second Ave. el followed St. James Place and then Pearl Street (Water Street south of Fulton wasn't widened until the 1950s), south of Chatham Square, then made the S curve after Hanover Square at Conitines Slip onto Water, and from there to South Ferry.
North of Chatam Square the el had a tight squeeze, since it went under the Manny B on East Broadway to Pike/Allen Street, then went up Allen and First Ave. to 23 St., before shifting west one block fo Second Ave. Definitely an interesting route.
If I'm not mistaken, The 2nd Ave El followed Division Street to go under the Manhattan Bridge, not on East Broadway. An old el rated building still stands at Division and Allen Street (SW side of Allen). The building is curved to clear the el. A door on the third floor lead to the el structure. A forgotten NY item (Mr Walsh - check it out)
Indeed it was interesting. The express stops were more logical, almost the same as Lex; and I've read in several places that the structure could have supported steel equipmwnt. I often wish they'd have kept it till last. IIRC steel H&M cars were tested on it as well as steel IRT cars. Whatever; they're all gone longer than I care to think about.
Were there ever any physical connections between the IRT els and the BMT terminal at Park row?
There never was a connection.
However, at one time, in the early 1900's the terminal structure extended to City Hall Park. I had posed the question previosly,
Was this to be a further extension & possible connection of the two lines to connect to the Manhatttan Bridge?
At its southern end, Ninth Avenue becomes Greenwich Street. The el followed this to its end at Battery Place and then went via Battery Pl. and State St. North, it would continue on Columbus to 110th, and then make a curve over that to 8th Avenue (Frederick Douglass Boulevard) to 155th and on to the Bronx.
Off 6th onto 3rd Street, West Broadway (La Guardia Place used to be part of W B'way), Warren Street and Church Street. Church Street then becomes Trinity Place which merges in with Greenwich. That's where the two els connected.
It turned off Second Avenue onto 23rd to follow 1st which Becomes Allen Street. It then turned onto East Broadway to get to Chatham. The Third merely followed Bowery.
Both els connected at Chatham and could follow either route (in theory, I don't know how it worked in practice). The City Hall branch followed Park Row (when the el was built, it was called Chatham Street, but everyone with first hand memories of that name is dead). The South Ferry Branch followed New Bowery (St. James Place after 1943) Pearl Street, Coenties Slip and Water Street.
One little thing extra. The N/B 6th Av El turned W/B from 6th at 53rd Street and joined the 9th Av El at 9th Av to go N/B to 155th then over to the Bronx (pretty much the way the IND goes with the "D" Train except the "D" goes up 8th and Central Pk West instead of 9th and after 155th Street it goes up the Grand Concourse in the Bronx instead of Jerome which the el used.
Lets celebrate the subtalk anniversity august 5th in a heypaul kind of way ?
Check out the "Coming Events" section ... you will note that the post wasn't made by heypaul since some caps were used. That means that there will be more then one of us there ... seriously if you're not going to Philly this week-end come on by Saturday afternoon and hang with us until dark. I'm coming in from LI, Dave is coming down from Boston, plus there will be some other Brooklyites in attendance too, but no girls poping out of any cake, no champaign or pigs in blankets.
Mr t__:^)
We will all be fighting for handle time on the R9!!
I got permison from the head dispatcher here, I'll be there.
[We will all be fighting for handle time on the R9!!]
NO ... the 3/4 Ton Crew has been assigned Bouncer duty, just so everyone is nice.
Mr t__:^)
i got an e-mail indicating that david cole would not be able to come down to new york city this weekend... since david wanted to ride the cyclone, i now suspect that doug will be suggesting that the group take a 3 or 4 hour tour of the franklin shuttle... he intercepted a highly secret message listening to his tesla coil indicating that the long ago scrapped bmt green hornets will be back in service this saturday from 1:27PM to 2:13PM...
as the gracious host of the first part of our celebration of 5 years of subtalk, i am going to buy donuts and soda for everyone's enjoyment... from what i have read of people's plans, i currently plan to buy 5 donuts... 2 jelly, 1 chocolate, 1 creme, and 1 filled with salami for doug... so, if you can make it saturday, let me know and tell me what type of donut you want...
depending on how much time people spend over here, i have planned to have a continuous screening of key scenes from the honeymooners,abbott & costello, caine mutiny, and the taking of pelham 123... i have also thought up some parlor games... one game would involve the group splitting up into two teams... names of subtalkers not present at the celebration will be put into a hat, we will drawn a name, one side will have to think of good things to say about them while the side i am on will concentrate on making cruel merciless remarks about them... i am really looking forward to this, and i am feveriously
working on some choice words...
please put me in the hat, just be sure you say "Siemens SD-600" and not "Light Rail Rules!" I will be chilling on the West Coast feeling the transcendental thought waves of train dude and Jersey Mike talking about my lack of knowledge of the Franklin shuttle on email!
Abe
"I will be chilling on the West Coast feeling the transcendental thought waves of train dude and Jersey Mike"
Thanks Siemens....but I think you have an over-inflated picture of your importance in the grand scheme of things (and in my life). I was thinking of wallpapering my livingroom. I was thinking of taking my grand-children out for dinner. I was thinking about Riding around Carmel -Kent and bear Mountain on my bike Sunday and spending some quiet time with my wife too. In fact I hadn't given you a thought at all until now. If I were you, I'd wouldn't give me a thought either.
Hey, Train Dude!
Congratulations! You DO have a sense of humor!
Doug aka BMTman
Say something funny and I'll laugh, Douglas. I did not consider the remark (in which I was mentioned) to be funny (nor did I consider the previous one by haypaul, funny but chose to let it pass). Let's end this now, Douglas. I don't appreciate your sense of humor, Avid's sense of humor, Seimen's sense of humor and heypauls sense of humor. I surely don't expect you to appreciate mine. Let's just agree to disagree on that point. If you disagree about the content of one of my (on topic) posts, have at me and I'll do the same. However, as has been pointed out before, the personal attacks (in which I have engaged in too) are destracting and detracting. Let us not escalate them further.
Sounds like a good game plan.
Let's keep it informal though, could we please?
It's Doug not Douglas.
Thanks, Train Dude.
Doug aka BMTman
AS YOU WISH - "A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME".
Why but of course, Steven.
;-)
Have heypaul cue up his CC tape and work the controller and brake valves along with it.:-)
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'll be able to make it down to New York this weekend. I just found out that my friend's place on the Upper West Side is unavailable for me to crash at over the weekend. Also, my computer monitor suddenly died yesterday and I'm still in the process of trying to find a new place to live (the place in Jamaica Plain suddenly became unavailable). Not to mention my insane hope that I may actually be able to afford a trip back home to Chicago within the next few weeks. Needless to say, funds are a bit tight right now, and as much as I'd love to make it, it looks like I'll have to take a rain check.
Thanks for the invite, anyway... Hopefully I'll make it down to NYC before too long.
-- David
Boston, MA
For others who were planning to come in from the North or LI I was planning to meet David at Penn Station/34th (island track for 2/3) at Noon. Would be happy to meet others at that time & place to do some Red Birding to Atlantic Ave, then a Q to Sheepshead Bay.
Give me a reply here or via a private e-mail (by early afternoon today) if you want to meet.
BTW, since I haven't been keeping up with the latest list of what is assigned to what route ... are there still Red Birds on 2 & 3 ?
(I do know that most of them came off the 1/9).
Mr t__:^)
I'll be taking the LIRR, but I'll probably go straight to Flatbush Ave. and take the D (Does the Q run on weekends?) from there.
bob... the q does not run on the weekends... when you get off at sheepshead bay, use the exit at the rear of the station...
Make mine chocolate frosted with sprinkles!
Train Dude ... don't you see what you're missing. A hobby is supose to be fun ... oh that's right it's you job, but then you like what you're doing (something many here are envious of), so what's the matter with a smile or a chuckle once in a while ?
Don't you have to humor your staff with some of the things they want to tell you ? I do, but then I don't too close to them because I realy don't want to know all their business ... makes it harder to supervise them !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I left teaching to go into a very lucerative family business back in the 70s'. I left that business for the NYCT not long after. Trains have been a hobby since as long as I can remember. My father bought me my first Lionel trains @ six months old.
I love what I do. I also have a very furtile sense of humor. I've recently had to give a speech at 'supervisor of the month' ceremony that left some of the mucky-mucks rolling. As I keep saying, i have nothing against humor if someone would say something funny.
To clear the air - I have let my personal dislike for heypaul magnify my lack of appreciation of his strange sense of humor. That's my fault but that's something that comes from beyond this board. I just don't find his brand of humor funny. No problem there, is it? I also don't like Jerry Lewis. I also found those like Avid and Doug, who jumped on the wobbly band-wagon equally unfunny. That's my taste. If heypaul had posted that subway cars should be carpeted with yellow shag, I'd be free to comment, right? Well if he posts something he perceives as comical, I should have the right to do so.
As for the 2nd part of your post - I think you answered your own question. Yes I do - wiyh those who can handle the awkward dynamics of the situation. I have one employee (female) who lives near me. We occassionally carpool. We will share an occassional joke. We may even occassionally have dinner if we work late (Our respective mates know so no titters). However, she also understands that I will still do my job and a friendship not withstanding, I will show no favoritism. Not every employee would be so understanding so I choose my spots very carefully.
Besides, humor is largely always at the expense of one personor one group. Hence, a particularly innocently meant remark can be misconstrued, mis-interpretted or mis-quoted and lead to all sorts of problems in our politically correct work environment. I have seen it happen to often. If anyone doubts me, John Stossel (let's not start the Jonh Stossel thing) did a piece on free speech in the workplace. It was chilling. You should try to get a copy of it and then ask your question.
I'll be sure to print it and pass it through the cab window.
[I've recently had to give a speech at 'supervisor of the month' ceremony that left some of the mucky-mucks rolling. As I keep saying, i have nothing against humor if someone would say something funny.]
So, please educate us on what you said that was so funny that (as you put it) had "the muckity-mucks rolling".
Please do share it with us.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually dougie, it's a bit subtle but it was a story about a ventriloquist who did his act from his faux R-9 cab. His dummy, named douggie loved to sqirm on the ventriloquist's lap and blow the whistle all through the act.
To quote "The Great One": Hardy, Har, Har...
Steven, you have outdone yourself here. I am literally rolling on the floor in my own urine after wetting myself.
You are a comic genius. Why not take your routine on the road to Vegas or someplace. And stay there...
Doug aka BMTman
[... Besides, humor is largely always at the expense of one personor one group. Hence, a particularly innocently meant remark can be misconstrued, mis-interpretted or mis-quoted and lead to all sorts of
problems in our politically correct work environment ...]
Well, I will agree to a point. Those folks who get to a high level position in business all have a since of humor & got a A in charesma 101, see I can't even spell it. I kid a lunch mate here that he needs to take that course if he ever wants to be more then just a manager.
Another couple of points I would like to make: heypaul, if my recallalection is correct, doesn't make jokes at other's expense AND many of us have met him, so some of the jokes are just a little fun between friends, with nothing mean intended.
We all have seen a few who like to throw rocks & play mean jokes at others expense. You won't get any argument from me that there is no place for that here. I said to Douggie this weekend that one of the problems I now have getting the enjoyment that I crave out of this site is wading thru all the fluff to get to the post I want to spend time with, SO every post should be a joke of some kind, but it just wouldn't be the site it is without it being open to such a wide group of folks with very different levels of interest and knowledge.
Mr t__:^)
I'll be there, make mine a pastrami croissant
Peace,
ANDEE
mustard on the pastrami?
lots.....
Boston creme with chocolate frosting.
The 11:06 won't do me diddley squat - no good connection at Jamaica so I will have to take the 9:38 which means I'll have some time to kill and I'll go from Penn.
wayne
OH one more thing - is Rollin' Roaster still in operation? IIRC it was down on Voorhies Avenue but I'm not exactly sure where.
wayne
Wayne, I believe it's still there. I think it's closer to Bedford Ave. though.
Doug aka BMTman
Signing off real soon & will probally go to Atlantic Ave on the LIRR like Bob is doing. Bought my "Fun Pass" yesterday, so I'm all ready !
Mr t__:^)
When did PATH stop service from WTC (hudson terminal) to 33rd St.
I think service like that has only been operated at times of serious service disruption on the subways i.e. during strikes. In around 12 years of Path riding I've never seen it happen...
I mentioned somewhere below on this thread that way back when, The Tubes did have a Hudson Terminal-to-33rd Street route, which must have been discontinued years before PATH took over.
The only references I can find to such a service are from the very
early days of Hudson Terminal. The H&M planned to build a new line
from 33rd St. directly to Hudson Terminal. For a map showing the
proposed route, dated September 8th, 1910, see:
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/3841.jpg
[When did PATH stop service from WTC (hudson terminal) to 33rd St.]
I don't believe they *ever* had any one-train service, except for special service during transit strikes.
...and if I remember right, the TWU raised a big stink when PATH did do it during a strike and made them stop, assuming, I guess, people wouldn't be smart enough to change at Pavoina.
Are PATH 'engineers' TWU, UTU or BLE??
I think its BLE.
It wasn't that "people wouldn't be smart enough to change" - it's that it was doing something specifically intended to reduce the impact of the strike (providing an alternate service). Simply providing the regular service wasn't a problem, as it wasn't a specific action. Adding additional trains would be somewhere in the middle, but probably Ok.
Both my fellow posters are assuming that you ment service from WTC under the Hudson, up the Jersey coast, then under the Hudson again via another tunnel vs. direct from WTC, i.e. no such tracks exist.
Mr t__:^)
then what is the turn off between 9th and 14th Sts. It seems to be a tunnel turning off to the right it is blocked now but it is still lit. Also at the Trade Center Track 1 I belive has a sign about Midtown service.
Two questions asked here:
1- The tunnel between 9th and 14th-- this was for a planned Astor Place IRT connection. This never happened bwecause H & M ran out of money.
2- Sign at WTC. Midtown here refers to the 33rd street lines (JSQ or HOB to 33). From the WTC take the HOB train to Grove Street and change for the 33 train or take the HOB train to Pavonia for the 33 train
HOB-Hobken, JSQ- Journal Square.
Actually I think the "Midtown" sign at WTC is for use on the rare occasions that trains actually run from WTC to 33rd St., such as during subway strikes.
It's used less frequently than "Newark" at 33rd st.
That is for the never-built Astor Pl. line that would have gone to Grand Central. There's a bit on it on the PATH page here.
Actually, it was just for Astor Place (originally as far east as 2nd Ave. but later plans show it as Astor Place only). The Grand Central extension would have continued up 6th Ave. and curved onto 42nd Street with stops at 38th St. (and 6th Ave.), Fifth Ave. (on 42nd St.) and Grand Central. See:
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/3841.jpg
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/5702.jpg
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/5705-2.jpg
Terry,
Thanks bunches!
-Dave
p.s. I can confidently state that Terry is The Man when it comes to the plans and design of the H&M...
I wonder how that would have changed history if that had been done.....It certainly would have made the 6th Ave IND even MORE difficult to build [if not impossible..]...Not to mention probably the non-extension of the Flushing/Corona past Grand Central...
Two questions asked here:
1- The tunnel between 9th and 14th-- this was for a planned Astor Place IRT connection. This never happened bwecause H & M ran out of money.
2- Sign at WTC--Midtown here refers to the 33rd street lines (JSQ or HOB to 33). From the WTC take the HOB train to Grove Street and change for the 33 train or take the HOB train to Pavonia for the 33 train
HOB-Hobken, JSQ- Journal Square.
The 9th Street tunnel was to go over to Astor Place (give or take, the target moved at the whim of the Public Service Commission and the community in the area). The eastbound tunnel exists for about 250 feet from the branch point, with a bunch of electrical equipment now mostly blocking it. The westbound tunnel is just a small indent in the wall. If this had actually been built, it would have been a disaster, as the westbound track from Astor place would have crossed the eastbound track heading uptown to 33rd Street at grade, which would have been a tremendous bottleneck.
Regarding the signage at WTC, it's mostly abandoned/disfunctional, but if you look at the trackside signs at an angle, you can see a lot of interesting things. There were stylized maps of the Newark and Hoboken service, with wavy blue lines for the river. The piece of the sign you're thinking of is the "Midtown Service [Not] Running" sign. This was used to indicate if there was a problem with the 33rd St. line, not direct service to 33rd. Before the concourse-level signs were replaced by the current LED turkey[*] it also had the same Midtown information.
[* Note - the new sign is a complete turkey - I hate to think what they paid for it. For starters, it kept blowing drivers, so part of it was always stuck on in orange or off. Next, it couldn't keep time so the clock display was taken out. And most recently, the side that faces the escalators coming up from below has developed a bunch of bad LED's. But then again, the new PATHVision isn't so great either - within a few months, the monitors are as badly out of focus and misconverged as the system it replaced, and the "advanced graphics" that were promised are now the same static images, but sometimes replaced by an "Internet Explorer has caused a page fault..." or "NT maintenance in progress" message...]
The service I always have wanted to see is direct 33 st-NWK via JSQ..Also, when did PATH start 'regular' service on weekends on the two 33rd St services [as opposed to that HORRIBLE JSQ-33rd St via HOB death march...]??
The weekend daytime "normal" service was phased in in 1998-- first, direct HOB-WTC trains then about 6 months later they started the JSQ-33RD trains. Weeknights and late evenings and overnights they still use the JSQ-HOB-33RD round the world service pattern.
My gripe is that even though it says that both direct services end at 11:00 on weeknights, in reality the JSQ-33RD service ends around 10;30 and the HOB-WTC service ends around 11:45. So coming back from uptown after 10:30 and bound for Grove/JSQ (or worse, Newark) you get screwed but the late night HOB-WTC passengers are living large.
I don't think that was ever run and even if it did, no one would use it unless they didn't have the money for a subway fare and they had the time to make such a roundabout trip. It is alot easier to take the N or R from Cortland to 34th or the A, C, or E from WTC/Chambers to 34th.
You would be guaranteed a seat for exactly 1/2 the trip, even during rush hour. That alone is worth the ride. I often see business people pulling this (during middays), one referred to it [PATH] as "the World Trade - Midtown shuttle." It makes financial sense, save 50 cents each way, that's $1 a day you could give to the "Save the Children" fund, or be greedy and save for an additional $250 a year. Also, the PATH is a clean, modern-looking, reliable, fast, hand-out-apologies-for-unscheduled-service-disruptions-like-those-caused-by-WTC-bomb-threats system (I have one of these). To your average Joe, the subway is a slow, dirty, crowded cramped thing that's never on time, or Going Your Way, and that everyone has to ride on the way home. PATH is a great alternative.
My dad has to report to the federal building (26 Federal Plaza) in the morning, and meet his co-workers at the Manhattan Mall for lunch. What does he do? After getting off the PATH at WTC, walks 1/2 mile to work, reports in, walks the 1/2 mile to the PATH, takes either NWK or HOB to the first transfer point to the JSQ-33RD. He always tries to end the day at a PATH station or the PABT, avoiding the subway like the plague.
There was a Hudson Terminal-to-33rd Street route – during the old days of the H & M way back when. My guess is that such service was discontinued years before PATH took over The Tubes.
I don't know if the H&M ever actually had service this way-although they DID have in their work rules a marker light combination for such a thing.....
Green-Yellow, right?
I've actually forgotten where I've seen it..I don't THINK it is in Carleton's "Hudson & Mahattan Railroad Revisited"...But I could be wrong.....
Whats with all the new signal lights on the west end line? I see workers there installing new signals from 9th ave to coney island.
Jeff,
This was planned since that M train rear-ended a B at Ft. Hamilton Pkwy a few years ago. Since that accident, and the accident near the Willie B., there have been many speed restrictions imposed on some lines. Mostly 30 MPH signs, which no one follows. I believe the distance between signals is being lengthened, but the height is being shortened, for some reason. Can anyone verify this info?
JDL
Switches at Dekalb seem slower since that B train derailed. Instead of fixing the problem the TA decides things need to be even slower. Soon the rats will be able to outrun the trains!
From now on, my handle shall no longer be "Light Rail Rules!" This is because since I am tired of this handle, and since it doesn't seem to get on anyone's nerves anyway, I shall be going with my favorite LRV.
A handle doesn't & should get folks upset. It can be your name if you don't mind everyone in the World knowing it or it can say something about you or be a little tease, i.e can you figure out what it means.
Mine for example is a tease ... as I'm not THAT Mr T, the "t" is from my first vs. last name (I love it when new friends call me Mr Thurston). I work for the system here in NYC, but not the big T (TA), however I have a special place in my hart for that other T (Boston). I'm also not a little guy so the small "t" is the final tease.
So, maybe you ought to think about this LRV handle ... it's too obvious. You don't want folks to be able to size you the first time you put up a post OR maybe that's exactly what you do want ?
Mr t__:^)
BTW, Why the smilie ... there have been times when folks thought my reply was ment in a not so nice way, it wasn't so a smilie lets me enguage in a debate without coming to blows about it.
I go to change it but it says that that email address is "already registered". How do I kill my old Handle of "Light Rail Rules!" and then get my new one?
You send me private email or use the feedback form.
now, now, child.. a lil email to Dave P.
would take care of that.. sans tantrum.
And since when do we call Dave Pirmann
by "just" his last name?? It oughta
be "MR" Pirmann for all he's done.
Hi Im Rob A 22year old railfan ,and happy I found
Subtalk,and find people I can chat with about the
subway system.
Another WebTV guy, huh? Just kidding, welcome aboard! "Watch the closng doors."
well welcome aboard
Welcome Rob:
You came to the right place. There are people on here that are "experts" on the subway system. There is a great mix of railfans, T/O's, and conductors!
Enjoy!
Chuck Greeene
hey welcome aboard... subtalk is a forum open to all interested people... however, i am chairman of the subtalk certification committee... if you complete the following 15 question true & false test, you may qualify to be a "certified subtalker"... if you qualify, you will be issued a medic alert bracelet, which will assist ems workers in directing you to the proper psychiatric hospital in the event you lose your mind...
Answer all questions by writing T or F
1. i never laugh, because i am afraid that i will be punished for enjoying myself ______
2. i heard about subtalk, from reading the daily news and new york times articles about railfans, and i was especially impressed with the accomplishments of subtalker heypaul ____
3. i am in the process of building a motorman's compartment in my house ______
4. whenever i get excited, i write in CAPITALS and use a lot of !!!!!!!! _______
5. i have found that when people don't agree with me, i can win them over by repeating myself at least 10 times ________
6. i make it a point every time i ride the subway to use the franklin shuttle _________
7. i feel that the bombardier r-142 subway cars are the best thing that ever happened to the subway system.. ________
8. when people make mistakes in spelling, i enjoy pointing out their errors _________
9. i firmly believe that " we should do unto others, but make damn sure they don't try to do back unto us" _________
10. in my spare time, i watch reruns of abbott & costello, the three stooges, the caine mutiny, and the taking of pelham 123 ________
11. i frequently have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy _______
12. i can make the sounds of an r9 air compressor and braking systems __________
13. when taking pictures in the subway, i frequently use a flash camera as a train is barreling into a station ________
14. i am currently taking a course in electromagnetism so that i can fully understand the operation of a subway train _________
15. i believe that the person who made up this test is severely disturbed and i am putting his name in my killfile so i will not have to be bothered by his sorry attempts at humor ________
LOL!!!
heypaul....you have definitely outdone yourself here. It appears it is time for you to up your dosage a tad* I gather...
Train Dude will love this one!
Doug aka BMTman
(*Tad has been used with the permission of the 'Tad Users Society' a non-profit organization dedicated to the preservation and expanded usage of the phrase 'Tad').
thanks doug for your appraisal... i agree... as for train dude @#%$ *^)
special request to anyone coming over on saturday...
please be sure to check your chainsaws in the lobby of my apartment building before coming up... this is being asked to avoid any large scale massacres...
Heypaul,
I intend to be there on Saturday. Between you, a math teacher, and me, an actuary, I'm sure we will be able to keep everyone entertained with our knowledge of partial derivatives, cotangents, integrals, etc. in case of a rainout. Please make sure everyone brings their calculators!
Oh, I almost forgot, welcome to Subtalk, Slowbeach Rob!
Yes I will be there too - in spirit.
Siemens SD-600 a.k.a. Light Rail Rules.
P.S. Dave feel free to delete the old "Light rail Rules" hyandle from your database this is my new one :)
Funny you should mention Siemens. Denver's LRVs are model SD-100 cars.
I only know how to do logarithms, provided you supply the proper tables. Everything else is a blur - I can't tell a sine from a sign, a tangent from a triangle. If you asked me what a polynomial was I would probably say it was an Alaskan parrot. And DON'T ask me about word problems - or (even worse) PROOFS!!!
Math - not my strong suit.
wayne
F,F,F,F,F,F,F,T,T,F,F,F,F,T,T
excellent kevin... you get 13 correct, and you qualify...
you will receive in the mail a bracelet saying:
IN THE EVENT THE WEARER BECOMES DERANGED, HE SHOULD BE TRANSPORTED TO A FORGOTTEN NEW YORK CITY HOSPITAL
becomes?
First welcome SlowBeach Rob ...
Second, heypaul you have to stop this, as the laughter is getting me in trouble here.
Mr t__:^)
Welcome aboard !
From JDL
Does anybody have the specific unit numbers for the Phase I, Phase II, and GE? Thanks.
That's the...
running on...
's
request.
Finally got to see MARCs long-awaited and much talked-about double-decker cars this morning and they are something to behold. The train was on the Camden Line leaving the Savage Station being pushed in a push-pull mode. Still waiting to see them on the Penn line, though I know they are out there somewhere.
I saw what appeared to be a full consist of them one evening last week when I was heading back downtown on the Red Line. It must have been between Shady Grove and Rockville. I couldn't tell if they were in revenue service or not.
The MARC bilevel cars are indeed in revenue service. They are all over Camden, Brunswick, and Penn lines.
Chaohwa
08/04/2000
"The MARC bilevel cars are indeed in revenue service. They are all over Camden, Brunswick, and Penn lines."
What about the old "Hertiage Cars" ? Are they still running ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the heritage cars are still running. However, as more bilevel cars are coming, it's getting rarer and rarer to see heritage coaches in the near future.
Chaohwa
I've seen them lurking about Union Station - aren't they the same as the ones that the LIRR has just put into service?
wayne
Same manufacturer, similar design, definitely not the same. LIRR is more of a giant blue-silver brick compared to MARC, with a tapered side (don't know if I'm using the word right, just saw a toothbrush commercial), standard-size end doors with trapdoors, other differences I can't remember from when I saw them in Yonkers 2 years ago.
Living in Baltimore I ride these trains to Washington quite often. The double-deckers run only during rush hours. The best ride is on the 7:10 a.m. express out of Baltimore's Penn Station. After stopping at BWI it's a straight shot to D.C. The ride from the second deck is the smoothest I've ever experienced and as such I highly recommend the trip.
Eric D. Smith
Sometimes you can see bilevels running on middays. When I was on Amtrak #181 today, I saw a bilevel train waiting at Baltimore Penn Station to be train #421 to Washington.
Chaohwa
Are any in Service on the Brunswick line or will be by the end of Oct when I will be in the area???
Right at the peek of the evening rush a smokey fire was reported at the Borough Hall station of the 4 & 5 trains. This was just about 5 pm.
Since my building is right above the entrance, looking out the window at 5:40 the emergency situation appears to be over.
Hopefully, there were no serious injuries and that the fire was not substantial.
I would assume we'll get the full details at the 11th hour.
Actually it WASN'T at Borough Hall station, but either a transformer near the intersection of Fulton and Jay Streets, or some kind of fire down in the Jay Street complex. Service of the 4, 5 and A, C and F trains was suspended for a time.
I went home via four-wheels, so I never found out the details. Guess the 11 O'Clock report will have to suffice.
Doug aka BMTman
When I got to the Broadway-Nassau St. Station at 5:20, they were announcing: No service on the 2,3,4,5,C. F trains terminate at Chambers/WTC.
I got to Houston Street at about 4:50 to get a 1/9 to 34th-Penn. It was apparent right away that something was up because the crowd on the uptown platform was significantly larger than usual. In the 15 minutes or so it took for an uptown 1/9 to arive - about three times the normal headway - I saw no 2 or 3 trains except one uptown 2 that was running light. Usually there would have been at least three expresses roaring past in each direction during that long a time period. The P.A. kept announcing something, but as is all too often the case it was completely inaudible. Finally, a 1 arrived, jammed beyond belief. I somehow wedged myself aboard, into what turned out to be a stiflingly hot car. The trip to Penn took close to 15 minutes, due to the long dwell times at each stop.
Now, as to why a problem in Brooklyn would affect the 1/9, well, I can't quite figure that out.
Since there was no 2 or 3 service to Brooklyn,service probably was turned at South Ferry, at least 2 service would've been.
Therefore, delaying 1/9 service.
I get off work at 4:30pm. I reached the Boro Hall Station 5 minutes later. Usually a 4 is pulling in, but not today. I saw people coming upstairs and a 5 was in the station. Trains were still running to Manhattan at that point. When I walked downstairs, there was smoke at the front end of the Bklyn bound platform. I talked to the conductor and he said that a motorman on a Manhattan bound 3 spotted the fire and reported it to the tower. After a while people started to walk to the 2 and 3 but service knock out of there as well. Then the motorman of the Flatbush 5 train told everyone to leave the station. At this point the smoke started to thicken. I walked to the Jay St station where the A was still running. Took an Rock Pk express to ENY for the L.
Additional notes:
1. People started to scream that they want their money back.
2. Had to return to Downtown Bklyn to pick up my sis. This was at 6:30pm. There was still confusion as all buses were diverted to Livingston St. The street was packed with commuters from Court Street all the way down to Flatbush.
3. The fire happened at the intersection of Fulton and Jay. At that point, the IRT passes over the IND.
3Train#2119Mike
Thanks for the additional update, Mike.
Doug aka BMTman
This is a case where block tickets should be issued. For anyone that did not get a block ticket you should call and complain.
Of course- if Police/Fire rather than Transit closed the station then Transit has to comply. If you went to the Bus or walked to another subway line such as the N/R then you still deserve a block ticket if the second line (or bus) did not let you ride for free.
I'd still call up Transit and ask.
I was at home and enoying my regular time off .
At the same time, a smoke condition was also reported on the downtown 6 just south of 59th St. I was on my way home, in uniform, and everyone in the car I was in expected me to have the answers to their questions. I finally gave up and took an N to Whitehall
A BIE occurred on the N/R at Whitehall, approx. 6:30, while all IRT riders were instructed to take the N/R.
If they only could fix those damn BIE's faster. Why does it take so long for a train to recharge?
There's a penalty time of 17-23 seconds before it will recharge, plus the actual time it takes to charge - about 15-30 secs. the remainder is finding WHY the train went BIE in the first place.
If the BIE was caused by a device that has reset, the re-charging should take less than one minute. Typically, if the train operator activates the deadman, or trips on a signal, and everything reseats properly, there is a 17 second penalty time. Before the penalty time has expired, any attempt to recharge the train will result in venting brake-pipe to atmosphere. After the penalty time has expired, the normal time to charge a smee train is 8-12 seconds. (The pre-overhaul R-46 would charge in under 5 seconds) The greatest problem resulting from BIEs is the inexperience of the crew and the persistant nagging by Control Center. This leads to the operator trying to re-charge too soon and ultimately exhausting all his main reservoir air. Then it takes some serious time to build back the main reseroir air.
Further complicating this situation is the fact that R-44 and R-46 have another problem. When the Main Reservoir air drops below 60 PSI, the tappet valves at both ends of the train will not be able to stay closed. Once they open, all main reservoir air is exhausted (inaudibly) to atmosphere through the couplers. Inthis case the only thing the trainoperator can do is pull the angle cocks closed at both ends of the train and wait for the Main Reservoir air to replenish. Walking to the rear of the train and back takes a significant amount of time, as does the replenishment of the air. This is why BIEs can take so long.
BTW on the pre overhaul R46s, I beat the 5 second recharge time. The last couple of train in service, I had on the F line comprised of an entirely A-car consist, all 1200s up. I remember the extra long relay I took at 179 Street for the southbound trip and having to lock all the extra plug doors. 3 or 3 and a half seconds! I loved the charging magnet valves.
I was waiting for the R-142a at BB from 5:45 to 6:15, (no-show, yet it was only 5L on the way up earlier.) After learning of the problem and realizing that everything was going to SF, I took an N to Cortlandt right behing a train that went BIE, paid another $1.50 after running thru PATH sq to the 1/9 and proceeded to SF. Assessment:
Normal IRT Routes: 1,6,7,9,S
Screwed ones: 2,3,4,5
Trains turning at South Ferry: 1,2,3,4,5,9
Half the 2/3 turned at 42nd, half the 4/5 at Brooklyn Bridge, the rest to Chambers or Fulton to DH around the loop and pick up on the other side (starting at Chambers or Bowling Green). A few "rescue trains" were allowed to stop at Wall Street downtown every 1/2 hour to pick up stranded suits (no crossover). I believe the C/R of one of those trains warned of the curve, since that train was SRO and most passengers were covering their ears while heading around the inner loop.
An oddly long 1/9 gap caused a 3 to run in service through the loop. At least I got in another true railfan window view from Cortlandt to SF (where I sat for approx. 45 minutes watching the chaos). Guess what! The C/R of the 3 stayed in his 4th car position! Must have been weird having no board to point at while going uptown. Also, only the first 4 cars opened at a very crowded SF. I got to see redbirds in Cortlandt and South Ferry outer loop, if only for a short time (and empty).
Most of the local stops on Bway have a 9 car marker. The CR on the 3 should have had a board at almost every stop.
Yes, except the marker and board are positioned for the C/R to be in the fifth car, where he would be if the train had reversed instead of looped.
There's a brief article here (for now, at least). But why is there a picture of the 34th Street IND station in the article?
30 July saw the 100th anniversary of the Central Line, as it was on Monday 30 July 1900 that the CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY was opened to passenger between Shepherd's Bush and Bank. A formal opening by HRH Albert Edward Prince of Wales, had taken place on Wednesday 27 June 1900.
With the current Central Line nearly completly operated from a Control room at Wood Lane and with Automatic Train Operation now in use covering most of the Line, times have changed!
This is something I've been meaning to ask about: is all of the Central line run by ATO from the Wood Lane office now, except for the depots, or are there still sections where the Underground drivers must take over and operate the trains manually?
-Robert King
As at today (Thur 3 Aug) ATO is operative: Gants Hill to Shepherd's Bush in both directions. Train Operators are still required to drive trains manually in all other areas. It is expected the whole Line will be converted by 24 September. In non-ATO areas the Line uses ATP (Automatic Train Protection) whereby Operators are given 'target' speeds by the lineside equipment, which are not necessarily lit signal posts. Wood Lane Control Centre covers the whole Line except movements to/from Hainault Depot which are still under control of the local signal box. It is hoped to remove this box shortly. All movements in Ruislip, White City & Hainault Depots are controlled manually.
Railpace Magazine’s online hotnews page has an item from Amtrak that states that the Republicans’ new platform has reversed the party’s 20-year policy of seeking to dismantle Amtrak. The statement in the platform reads in part: “Republicans support a healthy intercity passenger rail system and, where economically viable, the development of a national high-speed passenger railroad system as an instrument of economic development and enhanced mobility.”
I guess a number of the delegates took the train to Philly.
The next news item, however, presents an article from the Wall Street Journal discussing the Acela service’s poor on time record.
Did any of the television cameras get a look at Senator McCain's face when the convention added this plank to the platform? I would pay to see his face at that time, the little anti-rail skunk.
This is not good news for people in places where rail makes economic sense. These tend to be represented by Democrats. Places where rail does NOT make economic sense -- small, low density states -- are represented by Republicans. They want us to subsidize them with high ticket prices, poor service, and tax dollars diverted to their part of the country.
It's my worst fear of "compassionate conservatism." Let's be compassionate to those who deserve it -- people like us -- and drain "them" to pay for it. Since the Democrats are happy to spend anywhere on anyone as long as they can spend, New York City is defenseless.
GOP better remember "who brought you to the dance"
...or in this case "who brought you to the Convention"
....which I'm pretty sure is AMTRAK itself!
Since when did "intercity rail" mean Amtrak? Killing Amtrak makes sense - killing intercity rail, in some place at least, doesn't.
GOP better remember "who brought you to the dance"
...or in this case "who brought you to the Convention"
....which I'm pretty sure is AMTRAK itself!
I thought the the over 100 killed in Flushing... thread was garbage anyway! How on earth are we going to make fun of death?
That's the...
running on...
's
thank you note.
Visiting GCT yesterday on my lunch hour, I got my first glimpse of an R142. I didn't get on because I had to get back to the west side. What I noticed was complete digital signage, in front, back and sides.
Evidently, the MTA wants to phase out color coded signage (since I'm a big signage buff I think that's unfortunate. I think color coding got started in the 60s with different colors for each line than what there is now.)
Will color coding be retained for "The Map" and for station signage, or will the MTA devise something entirely different? Should they?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah. I'm concerned about that too. First it was the overhauled R44s and R46s, not these new cars. It's a shame to see the color coding compromised (However I kind of doubt they'll drop the system all together. There's still the station signs and the map.)
The thing with those colorless digital signs: Without color, it's a lot harder to idntify the letter or number from accross the platform, especially when there are crowds. For instance, if I'm at Queens Plaza on an F train, I might want to know if that's a G or R accross the platform. With the big color coded signs I can tell in a very brief glimpse (say the one instant the sign isn't blocked by an enormous crowd), so I can then decide whether I want to give up my seat and take the R the rest of the way to work.
In short, the color code allows for quick idntitification of trains with a quick glance.
:) Andrew
>>
In short, the color code allows for quick idntitification of trains with a quick
glance.
<<
Not to mention the advantages for visually impaired or limited English(kid or adult immigrant or native) I think digital signs are cute but basically a mistake--the large colored sign -- the single best feature of Slant 40's as built was GREAT.
However they have to be manually changed, and can frequently be incorrect. Plus, nobody needs to know the origin station.
I assume the digital signs are that sickly yellow that all digital signs have. Someday, technology will advance so those signs can have light up different colors. Then the color designations will be used. In short, it is not that the colors for a line are being phased out, it that they have no way of display the info in the correct color without using ink, and apparently ink (rollsigns) is yesterday's news.
The front signs are red.
The interior signs are red and green.
The side signs are an off-white.
actually they DO have that kind of technology today - it's just more expensive, and they're cheap-o
If they had used the type of LED's that are used on the interior signs, then you could show the routes in red or green, and these are no more expensive then single color. The 110a was like this. I'm totally baffled as to why they would use red only in the front. I hope only these pilot cars are like this.
I like the block letter LCD on the outside, but still, they could have used the red/green LED at least for the route #.
The same exact type of signage is used in the new Grand Central schedule signs, only these are in white. The route names are in red or blue. I'm not sure how they change the color; probably either a filter or colored bulb.
Now wait. If they have red and green, shouldn't they also have purple for the Flushing line? Or are they just going to make that red?
Bipolar LEDs can only show red, green or yellow. If you want purple, you would need to install one blue LED for every bipolar LED in the array.
Full Color is out, just highly expensive.
There are what looks like two strips of full color LED's in the entrance of the new Bar Code arcade in Times Square at the bottom of the escalator on the walls (It looks like all the colors are coming from each bulb rather than separate RGB units, and the colors look to pure to be incandescent flourescent, etc.) They show green, dim blue, orange, peach (orange + the dim blue), magenta, blue-green, a nice sunflower yellow, and an off white (almost cool whitw, but with a touch of warm white-- R+G+the dim blue)
I'm hoping the TA/Kawasaki will use the bipolar with the separate blue for the 143's (this would be cheaper), but it doesn't look like it, if they aren't even using the bipolar for the 142 fronts.
Since the 7 is the only IRT line whose color has blue in it, and purple/magenta is very close to red, (and the 7 doesn't run with any other colored line) it wouldn't make sense to add blue to the IRT cars just for that line. Let's try to get them to use them on the division that has blue and gray lines!
Forget the colors (for now), even though I don't see any problem with red only because the R-32/38 has been dealing with yellow-green for years. Could we at least have a destination sign on the front? Every IRT line (except the 1/9,3) has multiple terminals in the same direction for at least one of their directions (OK, most are middle of line terminals but still), and so do several IND/BMT lines. Perhaps this could go in the bottom of the left window (NJT-Comet IV style).
I beg to differ. If we are meeting on the subway to continue in a given direction, then knowing where a train originated is useful.
As to manual and broken, this is like deciding we should have electronic digital doors instead of physical ones because the repair folks can't be bothered to fix broken doors. NOT!!! (this is not a comment on current maintenance, but a memory of years ago when non operative doors were common on R1/9 on the IND)The issue of false or missing route signage on public transit is mostly discipline--if the train is allowed to begin the run without correct signage the system is broken--and that applies equally to digital signage.
Digital signage is easier and quicker to change and one can be more reasonably expected to change it.
I don't get your thing about origins, if you intend to meet at a particular station, wouldn't you get off and wait for the other party anyway? If not, then you would have to peer into multiple trains anyway, who cares if you peer into a few extra ones.
Now, if there was the technology to replace physical doors with energy fields that blocked egress, it WOULD be a better solution, but there is no such thing yet.
The manually changed thing can be solved by having the roll signs like those on the El in Chicago. It is a colored roll sign with the control in the cab.
The originating station can be confusing to tourists. When I told someone how to get certain places in New York, I warned them that the signs on the trains would display 2 destanations.
Also, an even stupider thing is the sign on the interior of the train. If you see something like this:
Parkchester-E 177 St, Bronx
(6)
Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan
and I wanted to go to Pelham Bay Park, I would know from the outside of the train it was the wrong one. I doubt anyone pays attention to the roll once aboard the train except the T/O or C/R when changing it.
Sorry about my failed attempt to duplicate the roll sign of an R62. The (6) should be to the left of the destanations.
The reason the sign is on the inside is for the T/O or C/R to change it.
In addition, some people in a rush just board the next train, it's not that difficult to have the rollsign show the information to the inside. On the dark pixel LCD signs on the R-44 and 46, the interior sign could have been done without and saved the TA money if not for this.
"WALK THRU TRAIN" and "LISTEN FOR | ANNOUNCEMENT" are the only two useful interior sign settings, except for maybe "LAST STOP." However, many times in a crowded station or after running down the stairs/escalator it's easier to look through the window to the sign on the inside than to check the outside sign.
BTW: Want to see real money saved on digital signs? Check out NJT's Arrow rebuilds. On all the cars, the sign is only on the outside. On the married pair cars, the sign is only on the upper right or lower left corners of the PAIR. So unless you can see both sides at once, or the train is all singles, it appears as if only every other car has a digital sign.
I agree. Often in New York, I look for a color or letter to identify the train if the lines running at the station use the same rolling stock or have a mix. For instance at 34/8 when the 8th Avenue Local comes in, I have one hell of a time figuring out what train it is. The bulkhead sign is impossible to read and one has to wait until the train slows down to figure out which one it is. That would not happen with the older roll sign.
Sometimes, older technology is better than the new. This is one of those times.
A solution to this problem would be to have the colored roll signs controlled from the cab as on the CTA in Chicago or the old signs in DC.
But why do you have to know what train it is when it's still in the tunnel? Are those 30 seconds so important?
A solution to this problem would be to have the colored roll signs controlled from the cab as on the CTA in Chicago or the old signs in DC.
Key word there: OLD signs, same as the OLD signs on the R-44 and R-46. Since these weren't retired, you have to wonder why the signs aren't there anymore. Those kinds of signs would be an example of unworkable hybrids between old and new technology.
Actually the SF MUNI Boeings and 1st order of Bredas have roll sign centrally controlled from the cabs. Sadly the Boeings are notorious for running with contradictory signs--Front wb, side blank, second side different wb route, rear, eb. BUT all that notwithstanding, the issues are still legibilty and accuracy. And the point about origin is if I am expecting you to arrive from a #2 I won't even check a # 3. My style is to set a "first door-second car" type location so you and I will find ourselves most efficiently.
You know who has the worst signage? MARTA. The roll signs up front usually are wrong, so they have resorted to using stickers with the destination printed on them in the front. I've even seen a piece of paper with "Bankhead" written with a marker taped to the front.
The flip dot signs on the side are NEVER right. I've seen those signs say "??????", "ghbjdg2^%56", and "no passengers" on an in service train. Sometimes they'll say a station that is on another line, and not nessarily a terminal staion, either.
We can put a man on the moon, have cars that don't waste gas, telephones small enough to put in your shirt pocket, but WE CAN'T BUILD DOT SIGNS THAT WORK 99 44/100 PERCENT OF THE TIME!!!
Rant mode OFF.
Rail signs don't work, bus signs don't work.
It's enough to make you cry.
What's worse, nobody is trying to make it better.
We get the same junk in Baltimore. The LRV's, at least, seem to have the least amount on non-functionits. The buses are hopeless. We've been treated to reversed characters, signs so dim the sun blocks them out, no signs at all, and a host of screw-ups, stuck signs, and there's no solution in sight. Standing comment among MTA operators is that white cardboard and a broad tip black marker are standard equipment. At least the streetcars had signs that worked and were readable. The down side is that roll signs are only good for about 65 destinations before it gets too bulky to roll properly.
At BSM, our Peter Witt has six sets of signs (front and side) to be able to display every destination for the lines Witts ran on. The PCC has 5 sets.
And I ask, how long anyone would have lested at BTC say fifty plus years ago who tolerated the level of broken signage now common. Not very I wot. That is the problem--not technology. When I was a kid growing up around DC, you rarely saw a DC Transit bus without the correct sign. Occasionally when recently reassigned from a 'foreign' it ran with the classic white blank and a neatly printed cardboard. CTA in Chicago where iI spent summers same story. And both of these systems had distinctive color/special indication of expresses, limiteds, short turns etc. In turn the L had colored lights indicating A or B services so you knew whether to elbow your way to the [;atform edge as the train was arriving. So for that matter did the IC Electric have color indication as to route.
For the most part, the destination signs on Denver's LRVs work OK. I did see an anomaly on the day the Southwest Corridor opened: one car had "18th Street" on its side signs and "Not in Service" on one of its end signs.
As for New York, nothing takes the place of bulkhead route and destination signs. I would have said the same thing about marker lights, had I paid attention to them in the olden days.
These situations are rarely done, they shouldn't be put in just for these rare situations.
The digital signs on the trains should have two lines, not one so you can see the route and destination sign simultaneously. The fact that the one sign alternates is a matter of politics, not technology.
The Philly BSS has light-up destination signs which show source and destination. Never could figure out the point to that.
BTW: Why do the northbound Ridge line trains show 8th-Market/Girard until Girard, then change to Walnnut-Locust/Fern Rock, which is still wrong because it terminates at Olney? And southbound, they always show 8th-Market/Girard, confusing some into thinking it terminates at Girard.
They do this because they obvisouly didn't bother reprogramming the signs after the spur was extened to Olney. It confused me when I rode it as well.
Just to add my opinion I think the digital signs look cold and impersonal; I prefer the printed signs in a big way, but that's just my feeling as a relic from another age.
I thought that the new cars used an LED that is red when the DC power is sent through one way and green when it goes through the other way. I think that Radio Shack sells LEDs that do that. I was puzzled when I saw the 142-A with a red "6".
I guess either they don't use those in the front (just on the inside) or they didn't install a reversing switch. Although I don't think there are any switches for signs in that train, maybe they forgot to program it into the computer.
Yes, I know the letters weren't around when it was closed "temporarily" but it was still given a letter in spirit.
In any case, what route (via streets) did this thing follow and where did it connect to the rest of the Green Line?
The Watertown trolley started at Watertown square, headed off to Newton Corner via Galen St, then went down Tremont St towards Brighton's Oak Square. From Oak Square, the trolley used Washington Street to go to Union Square, Allston. There, it turned right onto Brighton Ave, and took it into town. Brighton Ave joins Comm Ave at the point where Comm Ave turns off to go towards Boston College. Once on Comm Ave, the Watertown line joined the "B" line into Kenmore Square.
Today, the 57 bus runs the same route.
Is the track still visible in the street? Is the wire still up? I can remember seeing both in the late 1960's.
No, the track and wire are gone except for a few car-lengths' stub track that branches off Commonwealth Avenue.
Yes, I saw that a few weeks ago as we were headed out of town. Looks like they left just enough to store a few trains for the rush hour.
Mr t__:^)
To the best of my knowledge the stub is not used for regular put-ins/take-outs or storage. Rather, it's for emergencies only -- i.e. getting a trolley out of the way.
The tracks were finally removed this year as part of a major upgrade of the area. Washington street from Oak Square to Brighton Center was torn up as recently as about two months ago, and the rails were finally removed and carted away. This was done so that cars might have more convenient passage down Washington street.
I don't know when the wires were removed; the have been gone for as long as I've known the area (admittedly not that long . . . .)
saturday will mark the 5th anniversary of this website, www.nycsubway.org...
i'd be interested in hearing david pirmann's recollection of how he came to create this website, and how it developed over the last 5 years... happy moments and the sad ones... visions for the next 5 years...
and then memories of the people who have used the information on this website as well as those of us who post here on subtalk and bustalk... what was your first memory of coming here?... what makes you come back here?
anything you have to say, will be a welcome form of giving thanks to david for having created and maintained this very special place on the web...
Reflections...
Well, since I don't have one when I look in a mirror... :-)
Seriously, I've prowled this site since '96 and joined the SubTalk community in '98. I've learned a lot from it, contributed a tiny bit, made a lot of new friends, rekindled a couple of old friendships with folks I hadn't heard from in eons, joined BERA as a result of the New York Days publicity here (okay, so 629 was my excuse, not the subway cars, but what the heck)... in general, had a great time. And I'm looking forward to lots more. Thanks, Dave!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, since I don't have one when I look in a mirror... :-)
Avoid Slayer, another SubTalker.
i was thinking of transcribing the posts on this topic and putting together a booklet of them to distribute to people who join us on saturday, or send through the mail to anyone who wants it...
if you wouldn't want your post duplicated, e-mail me or make note of it on the post
if this seems like a lousy idea to most people, i won't do it...
I've posted the how it came to be started before. It started out with a couple little things (picture and description of a Nostalgia Train tour and a tour of City Hall Station). As you know the first of these went up on 8/5/1995. Soon, Peter D. gave me the track maps and from there it just sort of snowballed.
San Francisco was our first non-NYC metro area city which went up in July 1996. You can check the what's new for the other stuff including when the new name got phased in.
No matter how hard I try the site is still being mistaken for the official site. I get a few emails a week from people who think they are writing to the MTA. I guess that's the highest form of praise. The second highest is the number of times we've been mentioned in legitimate press (7 times in the Times, that I know of!). That's when you know that the site has transcended from being a hobby to .. well, being something else. I don't know what I'd call it now... I can't even begin to count # of hits or visitors at this point.
-Dave
Could you post some of the e-mails on the site. delete the names of course, but it would be funny to read all the ppl who thought this was the MAT. Are most of the e-mails complaints or requests for information?
About 50/50 complaints/requests. Most of them I just reply to with a form letter and then delete.
-Dave
What I will remember this board for is the reuniting of myself with a high school buddy. The friend is the father of a young contributor known as DaWheelFlange. He signed a post on Memorial Day with his real name. I privately E-mailed him if he was related to the friend in HS since they both had the uncommon last name. He E-mailed me back that not only is he related but its his dad and gave me the dad's E-mail. Since our offices are close to each other we have tentative plans to meet for coffee sometime next week for the first time in about 25 years.
What a wonderful thing it is!
Mr. Pirmann, in creating WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG has
given us all a "gem". And that, itself, is a complete
understatement. The website is, to the majority, a
diamond in a haystack.
It's a place where we can discover that we truly
are not alone; that there ARE other folks in this
great (NY) city who will pay you a cheesburger tuesday
to have the railfan window today.
Some certain folks among us would pay you that very same
cheeseburger PLUS A PICKLE to have the railfan window BACK
on certain trains (::r-62A & r-142's::).
No matter how you sum it up, this website is
our sanctuary from the madness of this crazy little
world we all live in. I can't recall ever finding
a more complete, informatory, know-it-all,
have-it-all, site (yes, even Yahoo leaves much
to be desired) but not www.nycsubway.org-- here
we have it all... and all because of the dedication,
devotion, hard work, and perseverance of one man.
That be Mr. Dave Pirmann!
HAPPY 5TH ANNIVERSARY!!!!
My Thoughts and Spirit,
Sub-Talk is about the most fun I've ever had with anything. My thanks
go out to Dave for all of his efforts. I met Dave at an HBLR opening
some time ago , and was very impressed with his knowledge and computer
know how. I hope this board never goes "out of service".
Chuck Greene
I found this page because i had just discovered the world of online railfanning. I spent most of the time on the Northeast railfan website then hosted by Harris Semiconductor near Scranton. (it is now northeast.railfan.net) Anyway that site then and still does have an amazing links page and i was visiting each link and downloading all the pictures on the site (if any). In this manor I got over 500 megs of railroad photos, but anyway one day I followed a link to the Hoboken terminal NJT page and from there I followed a link to a PATH page. The PATH information was really cool so i went to another path page and i think it was part of the Grand Central section of NYC Subway Resources. After that I only visited for technical and signaling info, but last fall I not only found subtalk, but i also downloaded all the pics in the Line by Line tours section.
BTW what happened to the DeCeasre guy who ran Grand Central?
> BTW what happened to the DeCeasre guy who ran Grand Central?
Beats me. I haven't heard from him in a couple of years.
-Dave
Check out 8th Avenue IND, Queens Boulevard IND, Broadway BMT, 4th Avenue BMT- a whole bunch of new pictures out there for you to enjoy.
wayne
I found this web site about a few weeks after first getting on the internet, about a year ago. I spend probably 80% of all my time on the internet here at nycsubway.org. There is so much information on this site, it rivals any offical or unoffical site. I'm glad I've contributed to some of the material on this site, and also contributing to subtalk. I don't know any railfans where I live, so this is the only place I've got to discuss about the things that interest me the most. Hell, I even changed my major because of this site. I was going to be a mechaincal engineer, then I decided I would rather be a civil engineer, because transportion consturction and planning are what I decided that I would rather do as a career.
Thanks for the website Dave!
[I don't know any railfans where I live, ...]
Eye know one, but I'll let him e-mail you privately if he's a mind to.
So, you're NOT the only person in Atlanta who thinks about NYC subway cars !
Mr t__:^)
I've been coming here since the summer of 1998. I've met a whole bunch of new friends here! I keep coming back for the interesting chatter; the odd piece of information that I looked for; the news; the debate; NOT TO MENTION NYC Subway resources with its treasure trove of photographic and textual information....So many of my nagging questions have been answered here. And every so often a REAL treat comes along - like the photos of the long lost MS that I saw only once as a little boy but still remember vividly to this day!
A great job has been done by all.
Wayne
Some of your stories are priceless, especially the one about the sweltering, crush-loaded F train headed by 1277 in September of 1973. THAT was a gem.
I believe I may be one of the original posters on SubTalk, in its wwwboard incarnation. Dave P. may know, if the wwwboard posts are ever included in the Archives. Subtalk has been a great place to learn new things, make new friends and (hopefully) share my knowledge with the community. I first got on the Web for real in late 1995 and www.kne2soft/nycsubway came soon thereafter. All of us who read and post (and even lurk) should thank Dave for all the hard work that goes into this webstite and this board. It's the beat run site in the rail community and the best BBS on the whole web, and I see a lot that are not even a blip on the web.
Remember that guy who claimed he was on an N train rerouted over the Queensborough Bridge?
Yeah I do remember that. He was so INSISTENT that it really happened.
--Mark
I believe I may be one of the original posters on SubTalk, in its wwwboard incarnation. Dave P. may know, if the wwwboard posts are ever included in the Archives. Subtalk has been a great place to learn new things, make new friends and (hopefully) share my knowledge with the community. I first got on the Web for real in late 1995 and www.kne2soft/nycsubway came soon thereafter. All of us who read and post (and even lurk) should thank Dave for all the hard work that goes into this webstite and this board. It's the best run site in the rail community and the best BBS on the whole web, and I see a lot that are not even a blip on the web.
I was introduced to this website by a coworker in late 1997. He knew I was a New York subway enthusiast and suggested I check it out. Subtalk has enabled me to learn things not found in any books, thanks to the wealth of knowledge being shared here. I've also met a few fellow Subtalkers last fall, and hope to do so again this October.
Kudos to Dave for this website. My writeup on Denver's light rail line is coming along, and will be submitted to Peggy and Dave for review soon.
I'm only an occasional poster, but a regular visitor, and I still am amazed by all of the material and information that exist here. It's a tremendous site. Thanks to Dave and all contributors. Of course, it's the type of site that you're either enthusiastic about, or else you couldn't care less
I first learned about this site in October 1997 from a fellow ERA member, after seeing some black & white thumbnails of subway cars. Soon after that, I stopped by a public library to "surf the web" for the first time. Once I saw the first few pics of R1 IND cars, I was blown away! Within a couple of weeks, I purchased my first internet-accessible PC.
The amount of information stored on this site....."amazing" doesn't even begin to capture the feeling. I visit the "pages by date," "newest images," and the "subtalk" pages just about every day, because you just never know what new info/pics will be added.
The amount of enjoyment this site has given me cannot be measured: for someone that has had a lifelong interest in trains, this site allows me to cultivate that passion. A friend of mine gave me a screensaver/slideshow program this past Christmas, and I have loaded it with 500 trainpics (mostly NYC subway). I've yet to get tired of looking at the various images.....
Happy Anniversary, Dave and nycsubway.org!
with heartfelt thanks and gratitude,
Tony
I had the pleasure of meeting Dave at a Day One on the IRT Tour (late 1994, I *think*). We went on our own field trip afterwards to East NY & Canarsie. He was giving out homemade business cards advertising the site, and I took one, and realized it was the subway site I had already been looking at for many weeks. I let him know how grateful I was for putting this site up, how great I thought the site was, and have been a contributor ever since.
And the rest, as they say, is history....
--Mark
I got the Internet at work in December 1998, but I don't remember how I found this site. I probably entered something like 'nyc subway' into the Dogpile search engine they showed me, and here I am today.
It's certainly reassuring to see that I am not the only person in the world who notices all the various facets of the subway. It's always fun to see Subtalkers clash over best express run, fastest and slowest cars, best elevated line, how to fix the system, 'create' new lines, recount old horror and adventure stories, etc., etc. Now if I have a funny, unusual or frustrating experience involving our transit system, I know what to do: head right to the board!
A bonus is seeing all those beautifully preserved and scanned photos of rolling stock over the years. I never knew certain models ran on certain lines, like the R10s on the 'B' or the 42s on the 'KK'. Seeing those full color pictures of the 1-9s in their glorious dull black, I can almost hear their unique groans and feel them shake as they idol in a station.
My brother-in-law, who's a Tech Seargant in the Air Force, was recently stationed in Turkey. They gave him the Internet, and in his spare time, he somehow found this site. Having been away from New York (except for leave) since he entered the service eighteen years ago, he got a kick out of seeing pictures of the '7' trains with their original World's Fair paint scheme. Too bad he didn't wander over to Subtalk or Field Trips, or he would have seen my name and/or face. THAT would have been scary.
Thanks to the archives, I can find old messages I wrote from way back. Looking at some of them, I can only wonder, "What was I THINKING when I wrote this?!" If some threads seem to pop up over and over again, like best express run or possible service patterns for 63rd Street, it's no doubt because there are always new Subtalkers discovering this site, and any discussion involving the subway is fresh to them.
Dave, I bet you never knew what a monster you created!
Just a heartfelt "thank you" to Dave for hosting this wonderful site.
The accolades in the press, as well as the excellent discussions that develop are a tribute to his efforts. It has brought me much enjoyment, and I've met some wonderful people too. The SubTalk FieldTrips have been a highlight, and I look forward to many more.
It's fitting that the sun has finally come out after a week of gloom in both NYC and Boston!
Unfortunately, I couldn't make it to NYC today, but I do have a few hours, so I think I'll head out and ride the MBTA...
And that's...
Dave,
Congratulations on 5th Anniversary of NYC Subway Resources!! All I remember was searching "NYC SUBWAY" on one of the search engines late 1995 or early 1996, I was so excited about your site and felt it'll be popular site for years to come, boy! Was I right! And I wanted to thank you for letting me design and post 70+ maps on your site!
This site is a GEM! Keep it that way except to add more stuff which I'm sure will fall into your hands later!
Again, THANKS Dave and other contributing subfans!
Mike the Mailman in Denver
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
I've been Subtalking since mid-1997 IIRC. I had seen Subtalk mentioned on a nyc.transit post, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Does anyone know what is the problem with the R142's? I keep trying to get it but no success.
I won't be around for the next two weeks so I won't have to keep running out and taking long lunches.
Have a nice day !!! (and a nicer two weeks !!!!!)
The 142a is out of service again today because of door problems.
-Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Does that mean the Kawasaki clock is reset ?
I hope not, they made it up to half! It probably was, since I think the policy is if the train must go out of service due to any mechanical or technical problem, it must try again.
Saw the Shuttle laid up last night at Howard Beach. What is with that?
The Rockaway Park Shuttle consists of 3 trains. The Shuttle runs from Beach 116 Street to Broad Channel. After Broad Channel, it continues to Howard Beach and uses the express center tracks to relay. After it is relayed, it returns to Beach 116 Street. The shuttle you saw was probably relaying or just stored there for the night. I'm not sure where the Rokcaway Park Shuttles are stored during the night. If the interior lights on the train were off, it was being stored. If the interior lights were on the train was relaying there.
That's the...
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But they just built a relay track at Broad Channel, and have been using it for a while. The Howard Beach relay is only used when the bridge is opened, and 2 trains must be relayed at the same time once it closes (one at Broad Channel, the other at Howard Beach).
I thought they relayed on that little siding north of the Broad Channel station. At least that was what the one I was taking did.
I believe they relayed there when there was a G.O. calling for single tracking between Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
That's the...
running on...
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AP Aug 2 2000
Yesterday, the police department along with the mayor's office anounced that they will be using SEPTA to help deal with the throngs of protestors that have been disrupting the city during the RNC. John timinay has this to say.
"these protestors have come here seeking to disrupt the city and the convention. Why should the city have to then go and pay the costs of jailing and trying all of these protestors? With SEPTA's help we can have a better, more cost effective solution."
the current plan set forth by SEPTA is to load the arrested protestors onto R6 trains bound for Norristown. The R6 is the slowest commuter rail line in the world with an average speed of 2 miles per hour. City Hall has informed SEPTA that this is an exelent time for some anual track maintainence so even that figure will come down a little. the entire trip will take in the neighborhood of 14 hours one way. The protestors will be stripped of all cash so upon their arrival in Norristown they will be forced to bum a return fare from mostly republican suburbanites.
"We expect that the earliest the protestors will arrive back in the city will be sometime next week and by that time the Republicans and news media will be long gone." remarked mayor Street.
Because SEPTA does not want to appear inhumaine they have recruted local railfans to give a guided tour of the line as the train trundles along.
::vioce over of railfan giving tour in protest train::
"And if you look to your left you'll be able to see the origional 6 poineer III MU's. These were built for the PRR in the late 50's and were the first new MU power in 25 years. They were AC DC and used mecurary arc rectifiers." "BOOO mecurary kills!!!." "Don't worry the cars have all been upgraded with silicon-diode packs." "Ouch, my brain hurts." ::fade out::
The head of SEPTA had this to say. "For years the R6 has been a real drain. Because of the slow speeds we have had to operate dining and sleepings cars over the line. We are working on a plan to roll the savings from the protestor plan over to upgrade the line. being able to offer same day Centre City service can help us compete with I-76. right now the 12 hour schedual is only comperable with I-76."
Some more affluent suburbs are asking the city to send them some protestors too. They are interested in holding liberal hunts where local hunters chase down the hippies in SUV's and zap them with cattle prods. There has been no worn on this from city hall.
You need some help. Either put in the subject that your post is a phony story, or stop doing it. Yu're making your posts look like legitimate information, when it's just a load of crap.
AP is a respected news organization. Stop using the 'AP' on your crap stories.
-Hank
Hey, heypaul posts his as legitimate, but people know the heypaul name. besides I'm using it as a hook to try and get people to read the post. this way i can fool uptight people who may or may not be yourself (i don't have the short term memory to remember your other posts) into having a laugh. the AP is nothing but a sound byte service for low cost newspapers, but to make you happy, I'll change it.
Heypaul's posts don't have titles that would lead one to the belief that there is something serious behind it.
I'll put it to you this way: Your asinine posts make me long to read a post by Salaam Allah. He may not always get his facts right, he may be somewhat paranoid, he may not make much sense, but he never posts phony crap designed to make people believe they're reading something newsworthy.
-Hank
Looks like it's time for Jersey Mike to join the Killfile!
Score one for me!
The fall semester can't start soon enough...
David
I was talking to a guy last night who mentioned that LIRR is planning on building a massive tunnel to Manhattan. Does anyone know more details? Where? Is it going to Grand Central?
I suspect what you heard was someone talking about the LIRR's eventual use of the Lower Level of 63rd St. The bulk of the tunnel already exists, it just needs to be tied in at both ends.
Does anyone want to write me a 63rd St Tunnel FAQ for the site?
-Dave
OOOH! If you could do that it would be nice! :)
Thank you.
Andrew
from Harold Interlocking,to the lower level of 63 st ,,into the lower level of Grand Central /Park Av Tunnel ,curving around at approx 59 st,to a New LIRR Terminal on the Madison Av Side
There is also an alternate version to a new deep level terminal at GCT,
I have the Drawings of both versions from the Consultants
This also includes a New Station At Sunnyside LIC Queens
Steve Lowenthal
FDNY
Current East Side Access Project is as follows:
3 new tunnels from Harold Interlocking to new Plaza Interlocking at 29th St. in the lower level of the existing 63rd St. Tunnel. Tunnels to be called Tracks A, B/C, and D, leading from LIRR Port Washington 1 and Mainline 3, Mainline 1 and 2, and Mainline 4 and Port Washington 2 respectively.
Completely rebuilt Harold, F, R, and Point Interlockings, including bypass duck-under/flyover tracks for Amtrak and Port Washington Branch, new high speed crossovers, and new lead tracks to Sunnyside Yard.
New Wood-Win Interlocking east of Woodside Station.
2 new tunnels from Suunyside Yard Loop Tracks to Plaza Interlocking.
New Long Island Rail Road storage yard in present disused Yard A to be called "Eastside Yard" with between 24 and 30 storage tracks. Yard will include access from the 2 tunnels mentioned above as well as Amtrak Loop 1 and 2 Tracks, and tracks Sub 3 and Sub 4 to and from Penn Station.
New Long Island Rail Road maintenance base to be called Arch St. Maintenance Facility, located northeastwards from Amtrak East River tunnels.
New Sunnyside Station at Queens Blvd. with platforms on Line 1, Line 4, Eastward Long Island Passenger, and Westward Long Island Passenger.
Full equipping of existing 63rd St. tunnels for revenue service, including new interlocking at York St. in Manhattan.
New tunnels from end of existing 63rd St. tunnels at 2nd Ave. bored on deep (120 ft. down) alignment to center of Park Ave. where a new deep mined 8 track station stacked 4 and 4 will be built underneath Park Ave. from 44th St. northwards with a Mezzanine on top. New Interlockings at 60th St. and 53rd St. Grand Central Terminal will then have 6 levels, with 5 levels of tracks.
New Long Island Rail Road Station Concourse in Grand Central Terminal at present location of Madison Ave. Yard and the west lower level platform tracks (up to track 114).
New Metro North Commuter Railroad storage tracks at various location on Grand Central Terminal lower level to replace tracks removed circa 1984.
New Metro North Commuter Railroad maintenance base to replace Madison Ave. Yard at Highbridge Yard, in the Bronx.
Andrew Byler
Track and Civil Engineer
Systems Engineering Consultant
MTA/LIRR East Side Access
[Current East Side Access Project is as follows:]
[list of 12 major construction items]
Actual items that will ever be completed:
HOLY COW!
That is a TALL ORDER.
wayne
Read this web article about living in the tunnels. Is this true, any other details?
Try this article:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/mole-people.html
Thanks Dave.
The BMT (and its municipal/authority successors) operated extra trains to Coney Island on "sunny summer Sundays." But what did that mean? It had to have a specific meaning, because workers and cars must be available, because the public must be able to reasonably predict that these trains would or wouldn't be running, and because the regular schedule still had to be adhered to. If the BMT thought it would be a "sunny summer Sunday" but it turned out not to be, it would run empty or near-empty trains. If BMT guessed that it would be not a "sunny summer Sunday" but it turned out to be so, then crowds heading for Coney Island would not have the extras to carry them and the stations and trains would be overcrowded.
Of course, no reasonable person could be in confusion over what a Sunday is, and "summer" can be defined in terms of the calendar as between two particular dates. But who decided what was "sunny" and, more importantly:
1) How did they decide? Forecast in the morning Times? Phone call to the Weather Bureau? BMT official looking out his office window?
2) When did they decide? Once for the whole day, or at certain times of the day? If it was cloudy early in the morning and BMT decided not to run the extras, but then it cleared up by noon or the early afternoon, there would still be thousands of people heading to Coney Island and no trains to carry them. Conversely, if it was clear, the trains were run, and crowds filled the beaches, but then in the early afternoon clouds rolled in and rainstorms broke out, were the trains ready at Coney for the early return home or would the train crews have gone out for coffee anticipating that the homebound rush was hours away?
3) How did the public know the BMT's decision? Did everyone know the BMT's criteria (see question 1) and apply it themselves? Signal flag on the station entrances? Blurb on the front of the morning papers? Or did they just show up at the station and catch the first Coney-bound train whatever it was?
John, all great questions! I wish I could have been the BMT meteorologist back then...
And that's...
[The BMT (and its municipal/authority successors) operated extra trains to Coney Island on "sunny summer Sundays." But what did that mean? It had to have a specific meaning, because workers and cars must be available, because the public must be able to reasonably predict that these trains would or wouldn't be running, and because the regular schedule still had to be adhered to ...
1) How did they decide?
2) When did they decide?
3) How did the public know the BMT's decision?]
My guess is that the service probably ran on almost all summer Sundays. In those days before a myriad of entertainment options, people probably weren't as weather-(hyper)sensitive as they are today. A cloudy day? Off to the beach! Rain showers? Hey, we plan to get wet anyhow!
Maybe they ran on all Summer Sundays, the sunny part only reinforced the alliteration.
that's what i'd say. all summer sundays - the sunny part was just PR
Who has been on this MB since Day 1 (besides our exaulted leader)? If no one has who has been here the longest.
BTW can omnipotent web site host dig out the first ever subtalk post and the first non-Welcome to Subtalk post.
Why don't you just look at the Archives....
-dave
Does this include the stuff from before you switched to webBBS?
I have the messages but the format needs a little massaging. So, right now, no, the early messages are not included. There were approximately 8,000 messages from pre-Webbbs.
-Dave
I didn't realize I was in that early. I guess Dave's service and my internet connection appeared at about the same time. As I was searching around, of course, "subway" was one of the first things I looked for.
Some of those early posters don't post much anymore. They had lots of informative things to say.
And then there's US, who have very little to say, and post very often!
I was SHOCKED to se how long I have posting [off and on] on this damn thing!
I recall posting asince at least the 2nd anniversary! In checking the current archivesd I have posted since message 9.
As far as the archives go, I can trace myself back to post #128. I guess from a former TWU member, that gives me some pretty good seniority.....
Though by no means an original Subtalker, I first posted on this board wondering about the Myrtle Av. El. I had been expecting just a little something about when it had been abandoned but instead I found that people were posting great details about the Myrtle - that even led to creation of a new track map of the Myrtle. I soon "jumped in" to these message boards and largely through this site I have gone from transit buff to transit/subway buff - Subway maps adorn the walls of my room, I have multiple NYCSL t-shirts, I have put those track maps together in one Giant Mosaic that except for the far end of Queens Blvd. is a to-scale track map on one of my whole walls of my room - and I can tell the difference between an R-32 and an R-132 (yes, I DIDN'T know the difference before coming here). All thanks to this site. I now have ambitions to decorate the bathroom in my hoouse with a standard Mauve/Off-White IND tile band......
So while not an Original Subtalker, I should say thank you to Dave AND Subtalk in general for just, (tears coming to eyes), being here for me (breaks out sobbing, looks like one of those chick movies, camera pans out to show Abe sitting in room with a framed picture of Sea Beach Fred riding the Brighton Express in the 1940s that he bought on Subtalk...
I know I have been posting to this forum since Dave implemented it.
--Mark
Spent a power lunch hour at Main Street today, i.e. looking for MCs; picking up a Blue Meanie & The Yellow Submarine (anybody know what I'm talking about ?); and lunch at Mickie D's ... all on the same block.
While underground I was scanning a few Metro Cards & ran into two new Collectors, well I'll call them grabers. They saw what I was doing and asked to look thru my stack. Both took a few but I got nothing back. One asian I gave my business card to, the other opened his wallet and showed me that he only had a $20. I told him I didn't want any money, just other cards in return. Guess these are the guys that used to break into the discard boxes. Anybody else had this experience ?
Mr t__:^)
There's a guy who I see at 63rd Drive often picking up discarded MetroCards and scanning them, I once asked him if he found any ones where the "Full Fare" or "Pre Valued" line on the reader instead read "METROCARD SPECIAL".
I found one of these at Grand Ave a year ago with $.50 on it, and used it until it expired. A month before that happened, I found a replacement at Roosevelt Ave, I'm still using it, and it will expire 9/30/00. BTW: These are elusive cards, as they have no special design or markings on them whatsoever. However, I have seen some that do, but those aren't the ones I look for. I hope to find a replacement soon, as I have not used a normal PAY PER RIDE in two years.
A woman came by & scanned her card which had 25 cents on it.
Are You talking about cards with errors or ones someone has "fixed" somehow ?
There was a Station Agent who was "fixing" blanks. They caught him by tracing where the card got encoded.
BTW, the system only knows bad cards, that how he got away with the scam. However, there is a back room in the TA that just looks a activity trying to see anything out of the ordinary. The folks with guns once visited this depot as the crook was boarding one of our routes.
Mr t__:^)
Actually, it is possible to get 25 cents on a card by adding exactly $15.23 to one at an MVM. Plus 10%, you get $16.75, and when you use up the $16.50 in fares, you have $.25! Of course, adding a number like that is very unlikely, but it can be fun. It also works when you add 16.59, 17.95, 19.32...
Just thinking....since it rounds up, if you add 2.22 to the card, you get 22c added to the card. If you add 2.23, you get 25c. Interesting way to try and cheat the system out of a penny.
-Hank
You can't add numbers like that to a card. They have to be intervals of 50¢
Yes, the fact that it's very difficult to get "odd" Metrocard balances causes some weird looks from the people behind me when they see my $1.10, $1.60, $2.10, etc. balance. I purposely add $16 to my "newly acquired" card the first time I refill so it will never be empty.
The magic number is $27.50.
--Happy 5th, Dave!--
Of course, (how could I forget this!) you could just add $1.75, 3.25, 4.75...and pay the fare(s).
Yesterday at Pacific street I noticed something very strange. A set on R46's came on the express track , and it was a B train. On the side sign, it said "B:west end express". On the back roller curtain, it said "F", I also asked the conductor if it was going express over the west end line, but she had no clue. Guys, whats your take on this?
Nothing unusual. I've seen a F Train do this a bunch of times. Once I was at 42 Street ans there was a "police investigation" of "a suspicious package" at Roosevelt Avenue. The F Train instantly turned into a Q Train. The front ans side destination sign all turned into a Q. The F Train then continued on to 21 Street - Queensbridge. In your case something happened to the F Line south of Broadway Lafayette.
That's the...
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Assuming these were R-46s, what did their side signs say?
Q - Brighton Express? Q - Broadway Express?
I believe that the destination signs stayed at Q - 21 Street Queensbridge. It was a while back.
That's the...
running on...
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I noticed something very strange at Pacific street yesterday. A set of R46's pulled in on the express track, but it was a B train and the side sign said "B:West End express". In adition to that, the back roller curtain said F. I asked the conductor if the train was running express over the west end line, but she had no clue. Guys, what's your take on this?
If it was in the evening, it is easily explainable. A 'B' train, leaving Concourse Yard Derailed about 3:10 PM. The derailment blocked at least 2 other trains from leaving Concourse Yard. it's likely that at least one F and one D train were used to cover gaps in service.
(Incidently Wayne, car was 5150)
5150 - the LAPD's code word for 'EXCESSIVE NOISE'.
Steve - Any damage to the car?
thanks
Wayne
Some bonnet damage to #2 ends of 5150 and 5149.
#2 truck of 5150 - slight
Piping on both cars slight
Both will survive & be back in a few weeks
Will try to scan a few poor poloroids
The national power situation is starting to get scary. Low energy prices put the kabosh on restrained demand and increase supply, and we are paying the price. They are talking about rolling blackouts and brownouts in California next years (as per today's New York Times).
If the worst happens in New York, how will this affect the subway? Is the subway "exempt" from load sheds, and is it's power separate from the local grid? Is there a plan to close it down if demand is too high? If so, would there be warning to get the trains in the station? Might brownouts screw up the signals, triggering BIEs and making all hell break lose? Would they hurt the controllers or traction motors?
Last I knew the TA buys juice from the grid like anyone else(the in house power plants were sold off in the 50's in one of the sleight of hand maneuvers to keep the fares down) As to out here in California, the major problem IMHO is the "deregulation" which is shafting customers. The utilities have sold their generating plants to 'shell' companies not subject to the PUC who are now charging higher prices for the same kilowatts they used to produce in house. Like the cost of the fixed plant went up? (and what is depreciation?). To pretend that with only one set of delivery wires on a street, there is some sort of competition is like pretending that multiple water compnies are supplying drinking water through the city water system. The other major problem is that the efforts to reduce energy waste have largely subsided. One of the major reasons plant building stopped here was that the PUC showed the utilities with HARD #'s that it was more profitable to induce energy savings than to build new plants with high capital borrowing costs. This goes back to the period of inflation treason when the prime rate was higher than most credit card rates today. For many years energy use here was sufficiently restrained by increasing efficiency that the growing population was absorbed with little or no new capacity. In recent years the rebates designed to induce small businesses to upgrade lighting have been scrapped, thus with ensuing boom usage is growing faster than capacity--exactly the situation which calls for price controls. As I get it from my step-daughter in NYC Con Ed is involved in similar behaviour. Eat the rich.
Yes, I've heard that California is in trouble too. But while the rich are cashing in (conspiratorial hint -- businesses sell for the most they can get all the time) I don't blame them.
The problem, as Dick Cheney and Al Gore once said but now recant, is low power prices. With the incentive gone, as you say, conservation stopped, as did efforts to increase supply. It was always possible to ignore the short term, think long term, and go for energy efficiency anyway. Most people did not, as the SUV and 4,800 square foot six bedroom house craze shows.
Was volunatry simplicity really just a decade ago? After an entire life as a renegade, it was strange to be "in" for a couple of years.
Anyway, because both demand and supply are inelastic in the short run, energy prices seem to swing faster than co-op prices in Manhattan, no matter what OPEC decides to do. Leave the market alone and supply will increase, demand will decrease, and prices will fall, just like last time. Impose controls, and you'll get confused bureaucrats trying to manage the market and stinkin pols over-ruling them to divert power to their pals in the perpetual shortage.
Got to hope the engineers will come up with economically viable fuel cells and solar cells soon. Maybe this will wake people up and increase the level of effort.
BTW, I read that NIMBY protesters on Long Island are fighting a wind farm on environmental grounds, LOL.
We've lucked out so far with a mild July and no heat waves yet. Look at your July electric bill. Electricity cost about 44% more per Kwh than last year. California is already experiencing 'rolling blackouts'. Meanwhile back in NYC any plans for clean-burning electric generation are shot down by environmentalists who'd rather have us all sweating in the dark. Let's see how long NYC's economic boom continue once the power issue becomes critical, like after a series of blackouts in Manhattan below 59th Street. The deregulation of the power industry is being done in the worst possible way. A transition period should have been provided to allow incumbent utilities to keep their generating plants until a certain amount of competing plants were on line. It's easy for the Peter Vallone's of the world to blame Con Ed because the average New Yorker doesn't understand what's really taking place.
(Let's see how long NYC's economic boom continue once the power issue becomes critical, like after a series of blackouts in Manhattan
below 59th Street.)
The one good thing is that it isn't much better anywhere else. If the PSC had any brains (doubtful), it would never allow the central business district to be blacked out. Sweating it out at night in the dark is one thing. Not having a job to go to the next day is something else again.
While the 'official' policy may be to share the pain during rolling blackouts, I can't see Con Ed or any utility intentionally shedding load by killing power to the central business districts. It's not politically correct to say this but keeping Downtown and Midtown powered must be the first priority in a load crisis. How is California managing it's load shedding during their heat wave??
(How is California managing it's load shedding during their heat wave?? )
An interesting question. The only load shedding occurred earlier in the Bay Area. Did they shut down Downtown San Fransiciso, the fourth biggest central business district in the U.S.? Let me know if you find out.
Politically, they might want to shut down the commercial customers, even though economically is would be a big mistake.
[Downtown San Fransiciso, the fourth biggest central business district in the U.S.]
New York's clearly #1, and Chicago almost certainly is #2. So who's #3? My guess is Atlanta.
I tried to find this at the Census Bureau's website, but couldn't. Is it even there?
This is Marble Hill
The next stop on this A train is 231st Street
Eugenius A. Train -subtalker@boarshevik.com
The census bureau is www.census.gov, but you won't find information on the size of Downtowns there. Incredibly, no one every compiled the data that way. Other than me. I had to call around to census affliates and ask them to ask what the boundaries of their Downtown were (generously defined) in census tracts and add up employment BY PLACE OF WORK from the 1990 census.
Washington, DC is number three, with about 400,000 employed. The area is called the "DC Core" by area planners. NY has 1.8 million, Chicago 515,000. There are a few more between 170,000 (Cleveland) and 300,000 (San Francisco), then it drops off to the typical "major" city with 80,000 to 120,000. That's what Atlanta is. Downtown Brooklyn is also over 100,000.
Perhaps I'll repeat the exercise in 2004, when the 2000 JTW data comes out.
>>> How is California managing it's load shedding during their heat wave?? <<<
In Southern California the news has reported three power alerts this past week asking consumers to cut down on use (set air conditioners to 78 etc.), and indicating there may be rolling blackouts of up to an hour in various sections. They have offered incentives to businesses to cut down on use such as reduced rate if they close down on high consumption days.
In the Los Angeles area, there are two power companies, the City owned Department of Water and Power (DWP) and the private Southern California Edison. Los Angeles chose not to deregulate the DWP and it has excess capacity. It serves the City of Los Angeles, and there is no threat of blackouts in the city proper.
Most of the rest of Los Angeles County (there are something like 79 cities in the county plus unincorporated area) are served by SoCal Edison. Edison got rid of there generating capacity with deregulation, and their customers are the ones facing blackouts, because Edison is finding that they cannot buy enough electricity to meet demand when everyone else has high demand.
In San Diego, the electric utility sold off generating plants with deregulation, and are still providing power to their customers, but the rates have gone up 44% in the past few months as they have had to pay more for scarce electricity.
Tom
Alot of places have a shortage of electricity because no new power
plants are being built. Electric utilities want to build them, such as several in Brooklyn and Queens but environmental freaks and NIMBY's get in the way and stop these power plants.
In the article, it was mentioned a power plant in the SF/Bay area is being opposed by environmental groups.
You can thank the NIMBY's and environmental freaks for our power shortage. It is high time officials stop listening to these NIMBY's which make no sense, and listen to common sense. Much the same situation in Roslyn, where NIMBY's and enviro-freaks opposed a Stop and Shop supermarket but OK's development of over 500 upscale residential units. Now food is becoming a precious commodity in our area. We can't let these loud few risk our energy, food, and
infrastructure.
Idea: Communist-style electricity. A power plant must be built in your neighborhood if you wish to recieve power. If not, then candles and matches will be provided for a low fee.
(Idea: Communist-style electricity. A power plant must be built in your neighborhood if you wish to recieve power. If not, then candles and matches will be provided for a low fee. )
Happy to put some solar cells on my nice rowhouse roof. I actually looked into it, and it doesn't pay -- the power output is too low for the expense of installation. But if the power output could be increased significantly, that would change. Perhaps by the time I need a new roof.
How about a wind mill on the top of every new apartment bldg over 20 stories?
I would imagine that the noise police would complain but I think the idea has merit.
I've been to Florida more times that I care to think about (mainly to care for ill parents, etc.) Over the last 5 years I've made more than
20+ round trips by plane
2 Round trips by Auto-train
2 round trips by car.
1 round trip by motorcycle BUT
Florida by bus? I guess it's not just comedy we disagree about.
To be serious, you're like the salt in a recipe. You know it does nothing good for your health but it ain't the same without it. I know you'll continue to annoy me but things have been less interesting, here, lately.
?????
This seems a non sequitor. Did the system glitch? Was this intended as a response to another post?
The system didn't glitch - I did and posted it under the wrong thread. I corrected the mistake, leaving this message floating helplessly.
(How about a wind mill on the top of every new apartment bldg over 20 stories? )
The bad news is environmentalists and planners would fight them like hell. The good news is that if they ever got built, environmentalists and planners would demand that they be landmarked.
Right now, a bunch of "public interest" types are fighting the installation of a bunch windmills on Montauk Point, which LIPA wants to install as a demonstration project. They will be sited on a ruined industrial site, but it is officially within a state park, and the anti-windmill crowd says windmills in a park is not appropriate. The head of LIPA says if people are against windmills, what are they for.
A park. In Brooklyn.
Suppose LIPA offered to plant some tulips around them?
Folks at NREL (Nat'l Renewable Energy Lab) actually try to figure out how to make shingles into solar cells (or at least make the solar cells out of something that can reasonably be used for a roof).
In my more paranoid moments I've wondered if power companies are disinterested in solar cell research (and I think they are) because they could someday take the power company out of the loop. You generate power on your roof, the power company does nothing. Unfortunately, it will be a long time still before most americans can generate enough power on their roofs. An important question is whether the power company has to pay you if you generate power and put it back into the network, ie., at midday when you are at work, but demand on the grid is highest.
(In my more paranoid moments I've wondered if power companies are disinterested in solar cell research (and I think they are) because they could someday take the power company out of the loop. You generate power on your roof, the power company does nothing.)
The can still charge to transport the power to work in the afternoon, and transport other people's power home at night. In NYC, the power distribution companies are out of the supply business.
(An important question is whether the power company has to pay you if you generate power and put it back into the network, ie., at midday when you are at work, but demand on the grid is highest.)
In New York State, the meter can run backwards. But a rooftop unit that would cost $20,000 would generate just 4 kwh per day, while I use 10 kwh on average. Hardly seems worth it. Cutting the cost is one option, but getting up to 8 kwh in 400 square feet would be better, since my roof won't be getting any bigger.
>>An important question is
whether the power company has to pay you if you generate power and put it back
into the network, ie., at midday when you are at work, but demand on the grid is
highest. <<
by law, in some areas yes, BUT they pay at low rates even though they charge at time of day scales.
It is only fair that power companies buy power at wholesale and sell power at retail. The price that they will pay reverse users needs to be their lowest price, since their premium prices are only paid to reliable suppliers who can deliver bulk quantities on demand.
Anything else is unrealistic.
Elias
Not so--any power I can put back into the system relieves the utility or their so called outside supplier(shell companies created to insulate the generation fgacilities from state regulators but owned ultimately by the same holding company) of the cost of capital to build more generating and long distance transmission capacity.
It does depend on state regualtions, and who was able to negeotiate what. Here in North Dakota the sisters next to us built two huge wind turbines, the provied about half the power they need, but excess capacity is sold to MDU at a fraction of the cost of what they pay when the consume MDU power.
Elias
I would love for a nuclear power plant to be built in nearby Floyd Bennett Field. It would be nice to go up to the roof and seeing nuclear reactors in addition to the Verrazano Bridge and the Coney Island parachute drop along with some tall buildings in the distance.
Sounds like a great idea!!
Larry, to answer your technical questions (I stay away from
politics in general): The subway traction power distribution
system is from the regular grid. They are subject to load shedding
but ConEd (in the past, I don't know how it would work now that
energy "competition" is in place) consults with TA Power Distribution
Often the TA can reduce demand considerably by reducing service,
having trains run in SERIES only, turning off idle escalators,
turning off some of the station lights, etc.
Most of the BMT and IRT has dedicated power distribution for signals.
Most of the IND uses the nearest convenient source of 110VAC.
In the latter case, brownouts (voltage reductions) of more than
about 10% will cause some track circuits to drop out and some
signals to go red. Obviously in the case of a complete blackout
all the signals go dark and all the trip arms come up.
Sounds messy. Can't shed load in an area without shutting down the trains? And, of course, if you shut down a line in the middle you eventually shut down the whole thing.
How ironic if all those SUV drivers manage to shut down the subway by using up all the fuel.
I wonder if the TA is thinking about this.
Last year when we had huge demand, the subway ran with orders for Series only during 11am to 3pm for a day or two I recall.
I hate to criticize anyone for harping on SUVs but can we actually blame them for this situation?
There was a bit of humor.
But no doubt the return of the gas guzzler in SUV form, the increasing size of new homes, and the spread of air conditioner use to any time the temparature exceeds 72 degrees has strained the national energy supply system. Beginning in 1994 or so, per capita energy use started climbing after falling for 10+ years.
The same low prices that encouraged waste discouraged the development of alternative energy sources, and led to the shutdown of less productive oil and gas wells.
It would nice to see a supply rebound, but so many people got crushed when the price of energy plunged that it might be hard to finance new sources, even with high prices. Kind of like trying to finance NYC real estate development.
Right--why do you think some of us believe in state enforced planning? Letting the energy usage decisions be at either the whim of our OPEC 'friends' or the domestic oil cartel is dumb. BTW it was during the Reagan 'fantasy' era whenm several oil firms bought up and shut down small manufactures of solar products. (and now for transit content)
I am still searching for documentation on a study done ten plus years ago which suggested the Union Pacific could power all of its freight trains with windmill farms in Wyoming.. As an environmentalist(eponymous) I support the windmill idea for LIPA. I would probably give a real estate tax write down to any building with major "off the grid" equipment. The best part of course is not even the bill reduction, but the ability to ignore time of day or anything else. I have always wondered why the TA didn't figure out regenerative braking. It would save Billions.
The R-142 (and R-110) are equipped with regenerative braking.
What the TA shuold do is have an internal power distribution system so that, for example, when the power is shut off in Queens, it can be brought in from Manhattan, and vice versa.
(What the TA shuold do is have an internal power distribution system so that, for example, when the power is shut off in Queens, it can be brought in from Manhattan, and vice versa.)
I dunno. Is a duplicate power grid really what we want to spend our scarce captial resources on?
One of NYC's problems is that it doesn't have enough power locally, and also doesn't have enough high tension wires to import enough power. New power lines are even less popular than new power plants.
Maybe MetroNorth could sneak a couple of extra power lines on its poles.
40 years ago the TA had its own power sources. They were sold to Con Ed. because it was believed that Con Ed could do a better job of providing economical power. However, much like bell Atlantic or ATT or NYNEX (or whatever you want to call them)could not anticipate the demand for phone service in the late 90s, the power companies of NY State did not anticipate the growth of demand for electricity. The problem is simple. You don't want a fossil fuel plant in your neighborhood. You don't want a nuclear plant in your neighborhood. NY State has limited opportunity for hydro-electric plants and where they do exist, so do the environmentalists, telling us that building a dam will hurt the spawning of the Snail Darter or some such species.
Unfortunately, somewhere we've gone too far to one side. The (minority) environmentalists interests have so overwhelmed the rest of us that a crisis is only around the corner. If anyone doubts me, just look at what's going on out west. One of the Clinton legacies was to take as much land as possible and put it under federal 'protection'. While this pleased the environmentalists, the government has neither the resources or manpower to effectively manage this land. The result of stopping all selective logging is that the land has become dangerously overgrown. Is it any suprise that previously naturally accurring but controlable forest fires now go out of control so routinely? Is the destruction of 10s of thousands of acres better because it's due to natural disaster?
The answer to our near and long term power needs is simple. Much as we do now for environmental interests, we must start setting land aside for power generation. This land, chosen by lottery if you will, would be exempt from the NIMBYites & environmental impact studies but would still be required not to polute. In this way powere needs for the next generation could be met.
BTW: What will happen to all that land that Clinton has placed under federal protection one he's out of office and the next administration decides that it can't effectively manage it? A land-grab, the likes of which this country has not seen in 100 years. Could the Clinton's become the new robber-barons? White-Water west condos perhaps?
(Unfortunately, somewhere we've gone too far to one side. The (minority) environmentalists interests have so overwhelmed the rest of us that a crisis is only around the corner.)
Unfortunately, the timing is such that it's hard to make a case that excess regulation has caused our problems. Soaring prices have come on the heels of DE-regulation.
It seems that utilities were in no mood to build new plants unless the government guaranteed them a profit no matter how great their waste, inefficinecy, and outright them. Regulation game us Shoreham, but people have forgotten about that.
Rather than look for a big conspiracy, I suggest finding the problem in the millions of decisions made by households, businesses, and investors. The former slacked off conservation, the latter decided power generation was an unprofitable bet. Stupid people failed to look beyond the temporarily low price of oil/gas/electricity. Unfortunately, everything about energy is capital intensive, so it will take a couple of years to reverse those decisions. Let the price stay high, and the market will do its job.
The one environmental issue relevant to New York is up on James Bay. Quebec wanted to dam up more of the huge rivers flowing to the artic, and sell the power at a profit. New York State was to be a key market. They needed to move some native Indians out of the way. The Indians protested, saying the flooding would destroy their hunting grounds, which were their property. In addition to getting caught up in the Quebec sovereignty issue, the Indians brought their claims to New York's liberals, who sided with the Indians.
But I believe that in the end project collapsed for economic reasons, not political reasons -- the price of power was low, and it seemed like a risky investment. We'll see if it comes back now. You still need the power lines to get it down here, however.
the Indians brought their claims [re Quebec power plants] to New York's liberals, who sided with the Indians.
But of course.
I beg to differ. While you may not like protection of 'poster' fauna such as the snail darter, perhaps you might look at the statistics on salmon. It appears that the multitudinous dams on the Columbia, Snake et al have contributed to a massive decline in salmon population. Secondly, the large flat surfaces of the lakes behind dams are perfect evaporation ponds. So hydro power is not perfect either. Yes we need more generation capacity, ALSO less wasted power, more efficient usage of what we have. We need as well to stop overheating the atmosphere--seethe articles this weekend on the melting at the North Pole. We here in the US consume over 80 % of the resources produced yet we are a tiny fraction of the total humanity.
On the contrary, I'm not talking about ecological irresponsibility. I'm talking about setting aside land for ecology and land for power generation and finding a balance.
As for the salmon situation, I am not sure what the statistics are but when I can buy salmon steaks for $2.99/Lb. and salmon fillet for $3.99/Lb. while Chilean Sea Bass is $10.99/Lb. I don't see where salmon is in short supply.
The point is chipmunks are cute. Owls are interesting and the eagle is magestic in flight. However, in the summer when it's 90+ degrees, we want to have AC, we want our trains to run and we don't want to be trapped in elevators due to rolling blackouts. I don't want to irradiate the ground-water around my grand-children's home but with a little common sense we can have pleanty of power without all of the political wrangling and NIMBYism.
As for the salmon situation, I am not sure what the statistics are but when I can buy salmon steaks for $2.99/Lb. and salmon fillet for $3.99/Lb. while Chilean Sea Bass is $10.99/Lb. I don't see where salmon is in short supply.
Salmon, like catfish and, increasingly, shrimp, is largely farm-raised.
I suspect that the high prices for Chilean sea bass are an example of good ol' supply and demand at work. It's become a very trendy fish, and therefore demand has increased more rapidly than supply.
Fish goes in and out of fashion more quickly than women's clothing. To take the most extreme example, until suprisingly recent times New England fishermen considered lobsters the ultimate trash fish. Ones that were accidentally pulled up in nets usually would be sold for pennies each as fertilizer. Monkfish is a more recent example. They were considered trash fish until ten or fifteen years ago, probably because they are such ugly beasts and their flesh has the consistency of firm gelatine. But then monkfish became trendy, and now their filets - as gelatinous as ever - sell for $7.50 and up per pound. Tuna steaks are another example. Hardly ever eaten in that form a decade ago, they're now fetching $10 and more per pound.
-And I suspect we ultimately are closer in outlook than on first glance, but the unintended consequences of many seemingly good projects need attention IMHO. BTW my recollection of the sale by the TA of the generating facilities was that the cash flow covered operating deficits keeping the fare stable(as Larry would say--a dumb deal in the long fun but great short term PR for the pols) UURC this was circa 58.
(BTW my recollection of the sale by the TA of the generating facilities was that the cash flow covered operating deficits keeping the fare stable(as Larry would say--a dumb deal in the long fun but great short term PR for the pols) UURC this was circa 58. )
At least Hevesi stopped Giuliani from "selling" the city reseviors to a shell agency controlled by the state and using the cash to balance one year's budget.
I'd have to disagree on a number of points. First that there
is some sort of problem with excessive forest growth in the west!
Almost all of the world's old-growth forests have been depleted.
If there has been any statistically significant increase in the
number or severity of forest fires, it is more likely explained
by the increased energy in the atmosphere from global warming,
which tends to produce more intense winds and extreme weather
patterns such as long periods of drought.
Constructing nuclear plants in remote areas might be attractive
in avoiding NIMBYism, but remember you need to be able to staff
the plant and to transmit its power back to civilization. With
nuclear, the danger extends far beyond the local area if radioactive
gas is released. US plants have an excellent safety record.
I'd be more concerned about places where safety is not as
stringently observed such as the former USSR, India, China, etc.
About the only truly non-polluting, non-hazardous means of power
generation is solar and wind. Hyrdo is clean but it does mess
up the balance of waterways. Of course, in theory you could suck
so much power away from the eart via solar or wind so as to affect
the climate, but that's rather unlikely.
I think you made a reference elsewhere to the ConEd blackout
problems this and last summer and I'd just to like to point
out that Con Ed's problems are mostly on the distribution side,
not the generation.
Getting back to transit-related discussion, on the average and
in the long run, it is probably more economically efficient to
have the subways purchase commercial power than to generate it.
During times when the commerical power grid has trouble that
decision is easily questioned.
The operative questions are, I believe, two. Does the TA have enough in house expertise to manage what is essentially an entirely different task? And, can the TA do it sufficiently well enough to make in house generation competitive? Interesting parralel--when should a railroad(or transit authority) do in house remanufacture/GOH work as opposed to either outsourcing the work or buying new when existing fleet has potential rebuild life? Clouding the issue, sometimes "externalities" such as overly favorable leasing terms (read the vendor was more interested in volume than unit profit) sometimes tip the balance. However, if the TA could generate some or at least a baseline quantity of its own reasonably, I would be in favor. In turn as it like the rest of the grid has little demand in owl periods, it might be prudent to explore a "Helms Creek" setup--a Pacific Gas & Electric facility which stores up water in holding tanks underground during slack periods to be used to generate during peak needs.
Posted on Railpace's hotnews site: "Amtrak has introduced at least one of the new HHP-8 locomotives to revenue service. On August 2 the 655 powered Clocker train 645 from New York to Philadelphia." (
A Clocker?! Aren't those the trains that accept NJT passes?
Weekly and monthly NJT tickets are accepted on some Amtrak clockers, but not #645 or other non-rush hour trains.
Bob
what is a PM150 Relay? I saw an old episode of Transit Transit News
Magazine, and there was an old guy talking about a PM150 Relay. Talking about removing an old Relay base.
What is a PM150 Relay? What does it have to do with the Trains?
That's a PN150 relay. It is a plug-in DC signal relay
made by Union Switch & Signal Co.
How many people have read that article that is posted on the front page here?
Heypaul, how does it feel to be a celebrity?
From 3 July "LONDON TRANSPORT" was replaced with a new Organisation "TfL, TRANSPORT for LONDON" (must be small 'for'!) controlled by the newly elected Mayor of London.
In 1984 the London Transport Executive was replaced with a new body: London Regional Transport (LRT) which was a holding Company for: London UndergronD Ltd, London Buses Ltd & LT Museum.
They initially dropped the name London Transport, although it gradually came back into popular use. LRT has since acquired Victoria Coach Station Ltd and London River Services Ltd.
From 3 July it is now quite complicated!
'LRT' still survives as holding only London UndergrounD Ltd. This is NOT however part of 'TfL' yet.
'TTL, TRANSPORT TRADING LIMITED' now holds London Bus Services Ltd (inc. Croydon Tramlink), London River Services Ltd, Victoria Coach Station Ltd, Docklands Light Railway Ltd & London'S Transport Museum(note addition of "'S" to name!).
'TfL, TRANSPORT for LONDON' now includes the former London Transport- except the UndergrounD, TTL, the Highways Agency for London, the Traffic Director and even the Public Carriage Office who regulate London's famous black taxi's.
This makes 'TfL' similar in scope now to the MTA, possibly!?
How does a T/O and conductor get onto a train laid up in a yard somewhere? Do they just walk down the tracks and climb up or what? How about on subways with ATO? Does a tower person or computer drive the train until a T/O can walk on board?
Well, the T/O walks on the trackways to the yard. I believe they are instructed to walk on the fiberglass and/or wood and over any rails. When the T/O get's to the train he/she climbs on with the help of a step suspended from the bottom of the onside (under the T/O's operating position) and handles all around. The cab door should be unlocked from the last T/O on the train. A hande brake inside the cab to be operated from should be engaged by the last T/O. After that the T/O charges up the train and pulls it up to a little box where he punches a lineup to get out of the yard. When the lineup clears he gets to a station and goes into service. I'm not sure if the T/O picks his own train or any other pre-operating procedures that have to be done before pulling out. Some REAL T/Os will have that answer. I hope this helps.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
Train crews report to the yardmaster who advises them what track their train is on, and I assume gives them a north or south car number to verify that it's the right train. [Unless of course the procedure has been modernized since I left in 1977--maybe it's on a computer screen?] Sometimes I wish I could have picked my own train when we had the R9's..that one would have been mine if there were choices.
You are not supposed to step on the protection board. You
are supposed to step over it (and try no to catch your
heel in the third rail). Most train crews I've seen step on
the boards. You are also not supposed to step on the running
rail while getting on and off via the grab irons, but again
most people do.
Around midnight yesterday, a train hit a person walking on the tracks beween Oakland City and Fort McPherson. The guy was wearing dark clothes and they don't know how he got on the tracks. The area was dark, so there was no way of seeing the guy. This is the fourth person this year that has been killed by a MARTA train.
AEM7 901 is back on the NEC since the Hackensack River derailment in late 1996. It's been less than four years since that accident.
Not only is AEM7 901 back, but it is remanufactured as an AEM7AC. This week 901 and another AEM7AC, 918, hauled #182 northbound, and #85 southbound at least on Tuesday, yesterday, and today. 918 is the lead engine with 901 as the trail engine. Hopefully this pair will haul the same train numbers again tomorrow.
Glad to see 901 back on the NEC.
Chaohwa
The same set of AEM7ACs-- 918 and 901 hauled train #182 again today. I asked an engineer why 901 is always the trail engine. He said it was because 901 was under testing.
If you want to catch these two AEM7ACs this afternoon, be sure to wait on train #85.
Chaohwa
There was another smoke condition at Boro Hall this afternoon around 4:45pm. This time it was in the Joralemon tubes. The smoke seemed to be thick because everytime a Bklyn bound train enter the station, smoke filled the cars. Anybody got anymor info on this?
3Train#1977Mike
There was another smoke condition at Boro Hall this afternoon around 4:45pm. This time it was in the Joralemon tubes. The smoke seemed to be thick because everytime a Bklyn bound train enter the station, smoke filled the cars. Anybody got anymore info on this?
3Train#1977Mike
I am looking for the following out-of-use subway signs, or pictures
of them:
1. CANAL STREET Station sign with Chinese Characters on it
2. EMERGENCY EVACUATION Instructions in Spanish. Used to be on
a sticker inside the cars. English would be of interest too!
> EMERGENCY EVACUATION Instructions in Spanish
Yes I remember that. It's the only Spanish I know... "no se apoye contra la puerta" "la via del tren es peligrosa"... Haven't seen them in a long time...
We have a picture of the Canal Street sign on the BMT Broadway page.
-Dave
I actually bought that sign (sticker) at the last Transit Museum Auction & Tag Sale. It is hung up in my office so my cubemate and I know how to get out of there in case of an emergency :)
--Mark
Don't the PATH trains have an English/Spanish emergency instructions sticker that is very similar to the one that used to be on the subways? When I first saw it on PATH, I was very surprised, because it seemed to be the same as the ones put up by NYCTA. The subway stickers are long gone, but the ones on PATH remain. I would be interested in a comparison of the wording between the two. Are they identical? If not, what are the differences?
Dunno about the PATH sign ... I'd have to take a look at it.
--Mark
Check out The Long Island Rail Road Papers-a little long but funny!
Not funny, just accurate.
-Hank
Long but true
Having been a LIRR commuter for a few months, I was almost rolling on the floor laughing with that one! I wonder if an out-of-towner could appreciate the humor of that!
:)Andrew
When I reported for work at 207th Street today, I was told that the the new jobs for the next pick were posted. I went to check it out. Imagine my surprise when I saw that they have it scheduled for the B to run along Central Park West up to 145th Street on the weekends! And that's in addition to the C service that's already going to 168th Street. That's good news for those living on and commuting to/from CPW. It's also good news for A riders, who will have express service extended in Manhattan since the B is scheduled to operate until about midnight.
Of course, since the B will no longer be going to 21st Street-Queensbridge, they now have a full-time shuttle operating. I don't remember where it will be running to, but when I go back to work tomorrow, I'll be sure to look it up.
Wouldn't it be nice if they had the Q Brighton express running. But it's funny they would do this when the whole thing is going to change drastically next year. (Are you sure the weekend service wasn't for GO's?)
Hay wow another T/O or just one of our old friends with a new disguise ?
One of the great things about this site are the employees who don't let the buffs or TA "suits" make their fantasies/propaganda appear to be the real thing, not that fantasies aren't interesting to listen to, but knowing that there is someone out there to tell you what is realy going on is very valuable to a guy who wants to know how it works.
Welcome colleague ... Mr t__:^)
Actually, sir, I do work for NYCT, and I'm not a train operator. I am a conductor who works the A line on the PM shift.
While I do realize that there are people who post speculative comments on the boards regarding train service (and yes, I confess to be one of them; that is what this board is partly for, being somewhat of a roundtable discussion online), I can assure you that I do know what I saw on that pick board, and that is that B service will be running on the weekends along Central Park West beginning in November.
Whether you believe me or not, that is what they have scheduled to happen.
I am looking for the Canal St. Station signs which were replaced.
They were just the ordinary black signs but had the Chinese Characters
under "Canal St" . The new mosaics are nice, but I need the old ones
(Really just a photo would be fine!)
I also need to see if any of the transit employees saved the
Emergency evacuation stickers in Spanish - or have a photo of them.
They were taken down for political correctness reasons. I need
these both for a project. HELP!
No, this question doesn't directly concern Metro North's Port Jervis service, but rather the city of Port Jervis itself. Last night I was browsing this site (http://www.ghosttowns.com - I forgot how to put in a link) that lists "ghost towns" in almost every state. Many of these are small abandoned settlements rather than ghost towns in the classic western sense. I was quite surprised to see Port Jervis listed as a "ghost town" under the New York listings. According to the description, submitted by "Jen C.," Port Jervis' downtown is largely abandoned, following a decline that began in the 1970's and accelerated in the 1990's, with most businesses having moved to nearby New Jersey or Pennsylvania. Jen does acknowledge that the area is becoming a NYC bedroom community.
I was in Port Jervis only once, about five or six years ago, and I certainly don't remember that it seemed abandoned or deserted. I would have remembered if things had been really bad. Have things changed for the worse since then, or is Jen C. overstating her case a bit? BTW, the people who run the site are from Arizona, and rely on submissions from site visitors when it comes to alleged ghost towns in other parts of the country.
In general, upstate New York has a lot of abandonned downtown areas. The region is in economic decline. In fact, upstate in general and the Route 17 coridor in particular (which Port Jervis dosen't really belong to) has really missed out on the economic recovery of the 1990's.
However Port Jervis could be considerred sort of the extreme, extreme edge of the New York metro area. So for better or for worse it could be subject to the suburban treatment of strip malls gradually displacing downtown areas.
What is different about New York, relative to many other parts of the country, is that many of it's small towns are cities are NOT abandoned. Essentially, the state stepped in and provided government facilities when their economic base disappeared. Compare with Pennsylvania, or (worse) South Dakota.
[What is different about New York, relative to many other parts of the country, is that many of it's small towns and cities are NOT abandoned. Essentially, the state stepped in and provided government facilities when their economic base disappeared. Compare with Pennsylvania, or (worse) South Dakota.]
I'm not so sure that should be a source of pride for New York. When a community loses its economic reason for being, it probably would be best to allow it to peacefully pass away, rather than keep it alive with taxpayer money.
[I'm not so sure that should be a source of pride for New York. When a community loses its economic reason for being, it probably would be best to allow it to peacefully pass away, rather than keep it alive with taxpayer money.]
I must disagree. By this logic, there would be no subway or transit. Imagine if the subway were "allowed to peacefully pass away," because it has "no economic reason for being." No one has made money on any rail-passenger transport for decades, and barely did when it was profitable. I know you'll argue that the subway's "economic reason for being" is that it helps feed corporate coffers by getting all of us drones to our workplace every day, thereby justifying the use of taxpayer money. However, I think Larry's example alludes to cases where the state government has located offices for its various operations in cities upstate other than Albany. For example, if you ever have to change your address on your driver's license, you send the form to Utica. Utica is a famously depressed city. Locating this function of state government in that city provides a few jobs in what would otherwise be an desolate job market. This isn't just welfare for Utica. It's win-win for the state and the city. Furthermore, it would cost the state the same, if not more, to build the facility in Albany or New York City. In both cases, transit and the Utica example, I can't think of a better way for government to re-invest in its people. Some government spending is necessary. Why not distribute it more equitably throughout the state?
(Locating this function of state government in that city provides a few jobs in what would otherwise be an desolate job market. This isn't just welfare for Utica. It's win-win for the state and the city. Some government spending is necessary. Why not distribute it more equitably throughout the state? )
Nothing wrong with putting necessary functions in lower-cost locations. But New York State has created unnecessary operations in order to provide excess jobs for connected people upstate -- the Republican analogy to the Democratic Medicaid boondoggle here in the City. Most Upstaters don't benefit from the Republican job machine, just as most New York City residents don't cash in the Democratic equivalent. It's just a ripoff.
New York State doesn't invest in cities, it disinvests. The beneficiaries of state spending are smaller places.
This is true. And indeed arround Long Island and Westchester, as well as upstate, there are beautifully restored downtown areas. But some upstate communities have bigger problems than a downtown revitalization can solve. Rust Belt cities such as Buffalo have seen their industires disapearing out from under them. And Port Jervis has a disadvantage in relative isolation (at least with regard to public transit.)
Plattsburg as well as Rome with the loss of their military bases are looking pretty bad. I was in Rome last year for the Woodstock festival talking with locals, they all admit they've been hit hard with the closure.
Plattsburg, if it wasn't for cross boarder shopping from Canadians it would be in serious trouble. Even with this phenomenon, one of two big malls in the area has had to shut down in the past 5 years.there is very little industry to keep these towns going. Very much like in the South Bronx.
The comparison with the South Bronx is telling. Most states have not only lost their old small towns and cities, but their urban neighborhoods in their own big cities as well. The Bronx and Brooklyn held on, barely. Many Brooklyn neighborhoods are booming, but the business sector has not begun to recover. We'll have to see what happens.
[Plattsburg, if it wasn't for cross boarder shopping from Canadians it would be in serious trouble. Even with this phenomenon, one of two big malls in the area has had to shut down in the past 5 years.there is very little industry to keep these towns going.]
Doesn't the Bombardier plant help?
I think the Bombardier plant qualifies under "very little industry." :-)
What is different about New York, relative to many other parts of the country, is that many of it's small towns are cities are NOT abandoned
Which explains why Port Jervis and other upstate cities are in such wonderful shape.
The Rt 17 corridor missing out on the economic recovery???? That must explain all that traffic we have; how Orange Co is the fastest growing area in NYS [Orange Co. has one of the lowest unemployment rates in NY...]; must explain how the biggest problem economically we have is finding skilled construction workers, etc,etc....
Port-yes...they really have never recovered from the Erie starting to pull out in the 60's. Even so, their downtown is all THAT bad.And Ports ALWAYS been kinda isolated, being in that valley separate from the rest of Orange Co....SULLIVAN County..yes..New York State stil hasn't figured out the Gambling Facts of Life as far as a resort area these days is concerned..
BUT..Middletown is doing just fine, thank you. Middletown is one of those towns who have figured out the big dept stores aren't coming back downtown- so you try to attract smaller businesses..Middletown has become quite the little arts center, with a bunch of galleries around
Newburgh's doing pretty good too..and all these formerly small towns are literally trying to catch up with all the growth....Yes, you hit a sore point....
[The Rt 17 corridor missing out on the economic recovery???? That must explain all that traffic we have; how Orange Co is the fastest growing area in NYS [Orange Co. has one of the lowest unemployment rates in NY...]; must explain how the biggest problem economically we have is
finding skilled construction workers, etc,etc....
Port-yes...they really have never recovered from the Erie starting to pull out in the 60's. Even so, their downtown is all THAT bad.And Ports ALWAYS been kinda isolated, being in that valley separate from the rest of Orange Co....SULLIVAN County..yes..New York State stil hasn't figured out the Gambling Facts of Life as far as a resort area these days is concerned..]
I figured that you'd weigh in on this thread before long. You are completely right about Orange County, it's anything but a depressed area. Most likely, that comment about the Route 17 corridor referred to western parts of the state, such as Binghamton and Elmira, which (at least so I've heard) have missed the boat when it comes to prosperity.
With regard to Port Jervis, I assume you meant to say that downtown is *not* all that bad. My guess is that "Jen C." had some ulterior motive in calling it a ghost town.
From a commercial traffic/business stanpoint, the Route 17 corridor figures to benefit now that it's the I-86 corridor, especially the western section. Once the route starts appearing on newer maps, traffic will be more inclned to use I-86 from Erie to Binghamton and I-88 from there to Albany to bypass the Thurway tolls. The section from Binghamton to I-87 already is the favored route for people going up to Syacuse, Rochester and Buffalo from NYC.
Portions of Orange County with transportation access have been booming. That means Rt 17, I-87 and I-84. Transportation used to mean rail and river, but not anymore. Port Jervis is off the map as far as Orange County growth is concerned.
Add a direct rail link to GCT via a new Tappan Zee, and that may change.
[Port Jervis is off the map as far as Orange County growth is concerned.
Add a direct rail link to GCT via a new Tappan Zee, and that may change.]
Maybe, but it still would be a long haul from the city.
By "Route 17 Corridor" I didn't really mean Orange County. It really applies more to Sullivan and maybe Delaware Co.
Did Delaware County ever have much of an economy? Today, at least, NY 17 through Delaware has the lowest traffic counts of any section of Interstate or Interstate-to-be highway in New York State (yes, even lower than I-86/NY 17 through the western Southern Tier).
[Did Delaware County ever have much of an economy? Today, at least, NY 17 through Delaware has the lowest traffic counts of any section of Interstate or Interstate-to-be highway in New York State (yes, even lower than I-86/NY 17 through the western Southern Tier).]
Delaware County was always mainly agricultural. AFAIK, it didn't have any other significant industry and hence can't really be said to have declined in the same sense as Sullivan County - which, in contrast, did once have a thriving economy based on vacation resorts.
(Delaware County was always mainly agricultural. AFAIK, it didn't have any other significant industry and hence can't really be
said to have declined in the same sense as Sullivan County - which, in contrast, did once have a thriving economy based on
vacation resorts).
My in-laws retired to Delaware County, so I know it well. The county has dairy farms on poor soils, and that industry has been in a depression forever. It survives on government farm supports. The real economy is state government jobs, local government jobs supported by state aid, city payments in exchange for maintaining the watershed, and working off the books for middle-class retirees. The usual rule is that the wife has the on-the-books government jobs, while the husband does what he can. Often people have two or three part-time jobs, none of which pay much. But the place is pretty, so no one wants to leave. Many people are very, very poor. Appalachia, but with better public services.
The population is about the same as in the 1830s. The county had a bunch of railroads back when, which made it an accessible place by the standards of the time, so it had more prosperity. I-88 follows one of the rail routes along the county's northern border. There were resorts, and are some fairly substantial 100+ year old houses in some of the towns, like Stamford, Grand Gorge, and Margretville -- the latter is newly popular with the Soho set.
I have been to PJ on 2 non-consecutive occasions and both times I was there it was pretty active. Of course I was there in the summer and that area is big on summer activities like hiking and canoeing in the Delaware. Hi-point NJ is right accross the border.
I also have passed through Port Jervis on an average of twice a year for the past 10 or 15 years or so. The downtown area, while it might not be described as vibrant, certainly does not qualify as abandoned.
The description is relatively accurate, I'd say. Port Jervis was a regular family reunion site when I was growing up so I'm familiar with the town in the '50s and '60s (back when Flo Jean's Restaurant was in its heyday), and I've been back through there several times in the past four years. When I was last there (August 1999) the town seemed to be coming back a bit, but still there wasn't much to really brag about. As noted on the website, most of the retail businesses have relocated across the state line to a big shopping center Matamoros, Pennsylvania, joining many that have abandoned Milford, PA as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Matamoros is a town in Mexico, just across the Rio Grande from Brownsville, Texas. The name Matamoros means "Kill Moors" - not a terribly appealing name in itself.
The town in Pennsylvania, just across the Delaware from Port Jervis, NY, is Matamoras - with an "a" before the final "s" instead of an "o". Matamoras means "Kill Moorish Women" - if the name of the Mexican town is offensive, the name of the Pennsylvania town is much worse. Why it was given this name I haven't the foggiest. Did someone see Port Jervis as in some way analagous to Brownsville? Was the Port Jervis/Matamoras area somehow seen as a "female" counterpart to Brownsville/Matamoros? I can't figure out the connection.
Anyway, last summer I drove out to Port Jervis on I-84. Actually, I got off at the first exit in Pennsylvania, where there is indeed a large shopping center, with a Perkins "Family Restaurant" featured prominently. I doubled back on US 6 through Matamoras to Port Jervis, and the area did see kind of run down, but by no means deserted.
Just over the bridge back to New York State is the Port Jervis train station. There is an odd underpass which is somewhat confusing, since a solid line starts separating the lanes that go under from the lanes that go over before there is any indication of which lane goes where. In the parking lot by the station is a Burger King and a Chinese restaurant featuring an "all you can eat" buffet for a fixed price. It sounds like a good deal, but the food is not great. There are also signs announcing the presence of the old Turntable (for turning locomotives), but I didn't actually see it.
Leaving the station lot, I got in the wrong lane and wound up in what I guess is "downtown". There was a large grassy area occupying a block, or maybe two, kind of a big "village green". I drove around it and don't think I saw anyone in or around it, but it seemed to be well maintained nevertheless.
There are also signs announcing the presence of the old Turntable (for turning locomotives), but I didn't actually see it.
It's right at the left edge of the parking lot - I'm surprised you missed it. Beyond it about 500 yards or so are the old concrete coaling towers. The turntable was refurbished in '96 so that 614 could be turned there. The difference in that immediate area between May and October of that year was incredible - twenty years of weeds and brush cleaned up and the turntable put back in working order.
About three miles or so down route 6 toward Milford is the Village Diner. When I was there last summer it was definately getting shabby but it's still a tremendous place to eat (I've had over 40 years' experience with that place). It has been for sale since about 1995 but no takers. Old-fashioned automatic juke box with from-your-booth control, still working, and that wonderful '50s stainless steel and linoleum.
The old train station in PJ has a museum in it but I've never found it to be open. Peeking in the window, it has a modest amount of Erie memorabilia. It's a long hike from where NJT/MN has their station now, but if you ride the train in you'll pass it at a distance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse-
The Village Diner just reopened 'under new management' this past spring, so I guess they found a buyer! Also, some friends just went to Flo-Jeans last night, and enjoyed tremendously! *AHEM!* To get this sort of on topic- I actually found the Erie museum open once- it has a few nice items, but not very much....Actually the 'hot' spot in Port is Homers Coffee Shop- where the rumors and gossip run faster than the Delaware in springtime!
[a Chinese restaurant featuring an "all you can eat" buffet for a
fixed price. It sounds like a good deal, but the food is not great.]
Long Island's chock full of those joints now. Your assessment of the food is, indeed, quite accurate.
>>>>Last night I was browsing this site (http://www.ghosttowns.com)<<<
Thanks for the tip. How could I have overlooked it?
I intend to take the Metro North all the way out to Port Jervis one of these days, and take a look at the place myself.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[>>>>Last night I was browsing this site http://www.ghosttowns.com)<<<
Thanks for the tip. How could I have overlooked it?
I intend to take the Metro North all the way out to Port Jervis one of these days, and take a look at the place myself.]
It's an interesting site, but one thing that bothers me is that they refuse to give specific directions to any ghost towns out of "vandalism" fears. Anyone who wants to find one of the ghost towns in order to vandalize it could do so with some research. So why withhold the information and inconvenience, even if only slightly, people who have honest motives? I dislike I-know-but-I'm-not-telling-you attitudes ....
Anyway, rant mode off, there's another ghost towns site that's much better, although it only has ones located in Arizona: www.azghosttowns.com It has fairly detailed descriptions of most of the ghost towns, and even tells you whether they're worth the trip, based on remoteness and the extent of the remains. After reading it, I have *such* a temptation to drive out to Arizona and use my new SUV to do a little exploring ... on the other hand, the mileage limit on my lease *does* tend to discourage long trips :-)
BTW, if you want to see a REAL ghost town, much better than Port Jervis, just take NJTransit to Asbury Park. You will be shocked at what you see.
The mention that Asbury Park is deserving of "ghost town" status goes to show that youthful memories die hard. I first saw Asbury Park from the window of a P-70 coach on a Bay Head local - with a K4 on the point. It's 1956, my aunt who happens to be a nun has just been assigned to a convent at 401 Atlantic Avenue in Point Pleasant, just 400 feet from the NY&LB. The CNJ trains were pulled by Fairbanks-Morse Train Masters, but the Pennsy was running out the miles on the fabulous K4's. For a teenaged railfan, heaven came early.
Point Pleasant was nice enough, but for a teen, the action was up the road 1 stop at Asbury Park.
My parents and I came up every summer for two weeks, Dad to see his baby sister. We got to stay in the convent's two guest rooms, and the days started early. 6:00 AM to be exact. The first train out of Bay Head was always a CNJ train amd left there at 5:42 AM. There were 13 grade crossings between Bay Head and Point Pleasant station, and that engineer blew for every one. Those Train Masters had LOUD horns!
Atlantic Avenue is two blocks from the station. If you were not awake after that concert, you were dead.
Good to hear from a fellow K4 fan. I never saw one until I was 14 and my acquaintance with them short lived, like 4 month's worth, rode the Oct. 20, l957 fantrip [#612] and that was it, actually my only ride behind one. But thank Gilbert-American Flyer's K5 model, almost a K4, for making me a Pennsy steam fan.Got one for Xmas 47. Still running one today [AF 312]
The only Trainmasters I ever had experience with were the ones on Southern Pacific on the San Francisco peninsula between San Jose and the city. SP's had Nathan M-5 chime horns, and theirs were quite loud too -- with PLENTY of reason to blow them the countless grade crossings.
Didn't CNJ also run down to Bay Head Junction with Baldwin double-ender diesels?
They might have, but by '56 the service was held down on the CNJ by the Train Masters. They were still there in 1964, when a friend form NYC and I went down to his aunt's, somewhere between Jersey City and Bay Head.
An undated photo of CNJ double ended Baldwin #2001 taken at Spring Lake appears on the dust jacket of "The Unique New York and Long Branch" by Don Wood, Joel Rosenbloom and Tom Gallo.
Didn't the CNJ offer service to lakehurst and Toms River? I have a pic of one of their HEP GP-7's on that run.
Lakehurst was on the CNJ Southern Division to Bridegton which included the route of the Blue Comet which turned east to Atlantic City at Winslow Junction. There was a branch from Lakehurst through Toms River to Barnegat.
Well Ashbury park deserves it because they New Jerseyified their beaches. Didn't they like put up a sea wall or something?
If we are talking about other candidates for the title of ghost town, one might look at So. Fallsburg, NY (another stop on the Shortline). I am not in a position to compare it to Asbury Park, but simply comparing So. Fallsburg to it self in, say, the forties is also a real shock. Each time I drive through and stop for a look it seems as though another establishment has closed, the last of which I know of was a great bakery.
Do you drive through South Fallsburg in the summer or in the winter? There's a big difference.
I mostly drive through So. Fallsburg during the summer and fall. The thing that struck me most though was the continuing disappearance of ataple businesses. They did not seem to be closing for a season or temporarily, but permanently.
>>>BTW, if you want to see a REAL ghost town, much better than Port Jervis, just take NJTransit
to Asbury Park. You will be shocked at what you see. <<<
Hey, we have ghost towns right here in the 5 boroughs.
I was down at Rockaway Beach in the B60s a few weeks ago and shot a few scenes for Forgotten. There used to be bungalows down there, but they're all gone now. Row after row of barren streets lead to the boardwalk.
Most towns in the USA don't face an ocean. In NYC we're fortunate to have mile after mile of waterfront on the Atlantic Ocean, Hudson and East Rivers, much of it accessible by mass transit--yet NIMBYs, politics and red tape render most of waterfront properties untenanted and unused. Nobody mentions it much, but it's the shame of NYC.
Paradoxically, the IND serves miles of this barren expanse (granted, the area north of the IND in Rockaway is more populated) yet subway service will probably never reach, or will reach decades in the future, parts of NYC that desperately need it like the east side of Manhattan and arguably southeastern Queens.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sadly, outside of the implementation of casino gambling in the Rockaways, I don't see any quick revival for that area, because of the long commuting distance (with the Lefferts annoyance added) from there via the A train. Casinos would bring their own set of problems, plus from a geogrpahical standpoints, the buildings would probalby be height-limited due to the proximity to JFK Airport, which would cut the area's attractiveness even to Donald Trump or Kirk Kekorian.
[Sadly, outside of the implementation of casino gambling in the Rockaways, I don't see any quick revival for that area....]
Don't count on casino gambling to help, in light of what happened in Atlantic City. The casino developers came in with all kinds of promises, the state gave them all kinds of corporate welfare, and the people of AC who subsidize the casinos are STILL WAITING for some form of economic benefit.
In fact, during the final season of Phil Donahue's talk show, on an episode whose topic was the merits of casino gambling, the then-mayor of AC complained that NO Atlantic City resident had ever held any kind of job in any casino. Even today, the casinos still "redline" by requiring all employees to park at the remote lot on the AC Expressway and use special shuttle buses to get to work (even if they could just take a bus that stops a block away).
With that track record, don't expect NYC casinos to result in either neighborhood revival or jobs for New Yorkers.
New York wouldn't be asking as much as Atlantic City was of casinos -- there the idea was to revive the whole town, while here it would be to do something with an isolated and partially abandoned part of Queens.
That said, there's no doubt all the problems surrounding Atlantic City's casinos (or to be more accurate, right behind the casinos) would no doubt be a problem here. Also, hotels and stores that cater to tourists in Mahattan would be worried about losing business to that area and would surely fight any effort to OK gambling for the Rockaways. But nothing else would bring money to the area (in search of more money, of course) than the casino option.
How about the Casinos in Coney Island also?
That's a little bit more difficult to handle, because Coney Island Creek doesn't provide as good a natural barrier to the rest of Brooklyn as Jamaica Bay does between the Rockaways and the rest of Queens, so the general crime, along with drug and prostitution problems that tend to follow casinos around would be tougher to patrol in the Coney Island area.
It's still do-able, and it would be great to find something to revive the Coney Island area, but it would be tougher logisticly to police than the Rockaways would.
In the early 80's the Disney Organization expressed an interest in aquiring the Coney Island/Astroland/Steepchase Park areas, but I think part of the roadblocks that came up were: (1) Disney wanted a guarrantee by city government that the area(s) would be cleaned up before any deals could be ironed out, and (2) the winter weather considerations would have necessitated an almost totally enclosed theme-park for year-round revenues -- the cost of which far-outweighed the profit margin at that time.
Doug aka BMTman
[In the early 80's the Disney Organization expressed an interest in aquiring the Coney Island/Astroland/Steepchase Park areas, but I think part of the roadblocks that came up were: (1) Disney wanted a guarrantee by city government that the area(s) would be cleaned up before any deals could be ironed out, and (2) the winter weather considerations would have necessitated an almost totally enclosed theme-park for year-round revenues -- the cost of which far-outweighed the profit margin at that time.]
In addition, it would have been too expensive to move Walt's liquid nitrogen tank from Florida.
In addition, it would have been too expensive to move Walt's liquid nitrogen tank from Florida.
Urban Legend.
Assuming he was cryogenically preserved, then it would not be expensive to do any moving. Liquid Nitrogen is cheap and they don't use any refrigeration in the tanks themselves.
I don't know if you posted it for humor or what and it doesn't really matter. I'm sure there are people who believe it's true (and those who believe that there's no such thing as cryogenic preservation).
Most urban legends appear to arise for no apparent reason. In contrast, it's quite easy to see why the frozen-Walt rumors started. Cryogenic preservation was getting a considerable amount of media attention just about the time Disney died in late 1966. The first documented case, in fact, occurred within a few days of his death. Added to this was a nearly complete news blackout surrounding Disney's final illness and death. The company announced that he was undergoing surgery for "an old polo injury," and soon after issued a terse announcement that he had died. No cause of death was given and the funeral arrangements were private and held at an undisclosed time and location. Combine this peculiar secrecy with the contemporaneous interest in cryogenics, and voila! Disney on ice.
I didn't know the story of his death.
And I used to believe it was true, because it isn't implausible.
The story I heard was that Unca Walt died of the Big C. Walt was a smoker, like many of his generation, and I believe the actual cause of death was lung cancer.
Peter, that's a good one. Ya got me laughing it up over here.
(Oops! I almost forgot -- we're not supposed to be having fun here at SubTalk if I recall correctly. I better wipe that smile off my face -- pronto!)
Doug aka BMTman
For one thing, emoticons [ :-) ] aren't used as often as they should.
Jokes and funny comments are accompanied with facial expressions in in person conversations and tone of voice in phone conversations (or in both). No such thing exists on the internet. If someone misconstrues someone's comment and there wasn't an emoticon, it isn't because the rod up his butt has a rod up his butt (appropriate credit to both Jersey Mike and Superintendent Chalmers).
And when someone responds to their own message, that means something else has been added.
[In the early 80's the Disney Organization expressed an interest in aquiring the Coney Island/Astroland/Steepchase Park areas, but I think part of the roadblocks that came up were: (1) Disney wanted a guarrantee by city government that the area(s) would be cleaned up before any deals could be ironed out, and (2) the winter weather considerations would have necessitated an almost totally enclosed theme-park for year-round revenues -- the cost of which far-outweighed the profit margin at that time.]
Leaving aside the frozen-Walt funny stuff for now, it seems to me that the area cleanup probably was the main stumbling block. Year-round operations should not have been a necessity. There are many successful seasonal amusement parks, such as Great Adventure, Busch Gardens Williamsburg, King's Dominion and Cedar Point. I don't see why Disney couldn't have built one in Coney Island if everything else were in order. But if the city couldn't or wouldn't guarantee an area cleanup, then I could very easily see Disney's reluctance to build.
Sounds to me like NYC blew a promising opportunity ... but then again, that happens all the time.
What exactly is meant by cleanup anyway? How would the city go about cleaning up?
Yes, you've said the best thing you can say; AC and the casinos aren't as big a blessing as they want you to believe. Neither has tax revenue from it in Montana or other rural states where it isn't quite Vegas but has gone too far,. Jobs, tax revenue..they say. Yes but like chemical dependency and a lot of other social ills it's costing more than its worth. As for real estate in the Rockaways the Ocean Front Property (George Strait) should be worth its weight in gold. I mean no offense to anyone but New York City acts cosmopolitan but is one of the most narrow minded. Bushwick could be rebuilt as a suburb for another example; yet some areas one can't afford a cubicle.Maybe when the big people get the land for what they want to pay you'll see high price housing all along the beachfront.Hard to believe its sitting idle. Oh well, can't sell the Brooklyn Bridge but how about Ocean Front Property in Arizona? or North Dakota? Best wishes, ed.
[I mean no offense to anyone but New York City acts cosmopolitan but is one of the most narrow minded.]
Heh heh, that's exactly my observation too. Note to NYC residents: contrary to what you have been brainwashed, er, trained to believe, the world does NOT end at the Hudson River. Thank you.
[Note to NYC residents:...the world does NOT end at the Hudson River.]
You're preaching to the converted - nobody in this group said that the world ended at the Hudson. That attitude is reserved for the Manhattan-centric yuppie types who insist on paying $3,000+ per month for a one-bedroom hovel with a view of someone else's bathroom. (For them, the world is bounded by the Hudson River, the East River, the Harbor, and 96th Street.)
As for revitializing the Rockaways, keep in mind that the entire Rockaway peninsula used to be a summer retreat (back when the LIRR provided the only train service). The demographics have changed gradually over the decades, and introducing casinos won't restore the area to its former glory - at least not all at once, and certainly not if New Yorkers are banned from working in them.
Why would New Yorkers Be banned from Working in Casinos. Local Residents are not banned in Mississippi or Nevada Casinos. The biggest lies are the 2 Indian Casinos in Conn, both said they were owned by the desendents of Indian Tribes that were extint by the Revolution War.
The internet might take a huge bite out of the casino gambling business. Lots of people to without wrecking their lives, but casinos make their big bucks off people who start out with a good bit of money and end up losing their homes and destroying their families. The internet will collect those people.
If we have gambling in New York, it should at least be cash only.
how else to you play in a casino. cash for chips. Yes they have atms and credit card advance, put it always comes to cash. If they played for cash only on the tables, there would be a severe shortage of money in the rest of the country
Why IS it sitting idle? I know that the projects built in the area didn't do it any favors, and commuting by mass-transit is a problem, but considering how built up Nassau county is nearby, you'd think this would be a great place to build one- and two-family homes.
In fact, during the final season of Phil Donahue's talk show, on an episode whose topic was the
merits of casino gambling, the then-mayor of AC complained that NO Atlantic City resident had
ever held any kind of job in any casino. Even today, the casinos still "redline" by requiring all
employees to park at the remote lot on the AC Expressway and use special shuttle buses to get to
work (even if they could just take a bus that stops a block away).
Are you saying that employees without cars can't just report to the casinos on foot or by local transit? I figured those lots on the A.C. Expressway were to give employees who choose to arrive by car a free (or cheap) place to park. What possible justification can there be if this is not the case? And how about some local entrepreneur setting up commuter vans to shuttle local people out to the lots, where they can be brought back in by the casinos? The irony (and overall waste) of that should make a catchy news item. (And if the casinos refused permission for the vans to stop in "their" lots, so should that fact.) Where do most casino employees live, if not in A.C.?
[Are you saying that employees without cars can't just report to the casinos on foot or by local transit?]
Precisely. The casinos don't allow walk-ins at their employee entrances; employees MUST report to the remote lot (in their own cars or by carpool) and take their respective hotels' employee shuttles.
-----
[What possible justification can there be....?]
To discourage A.C. residents from working at the casinos, by forcing them to go outside the city and double back.
-----
[And how about some local entrepreneur setting up commuter vans to shuttle people out to the lots, where they can be brought back in by the casinos?]
A good idea, if there's a demonstrated need (and a willing carrier) from a particular neighborhood. At least one NJT bus route out of the A.C. bus terminal stops at the lot for that very reason.
-----
[Where do most casino employees live, if not in A.C?]
Any location without an A.C. zip code.
I'm skeptical.
My daughter worked at Caesars (hotel, not casino) before she got her MSW and she joined many other employees on the NJT Philly-A.C. train.
[[Are you saying that employees without cars can't just report to the casinos on foot or by local transit?]
[Precisely. The casinos don't allow walk-ins at their employee entrances; employees MUST report to the remote lot (in their own cars or by carpool) and take their respective hotels' employee shuttles.]
I don't know where you got that information, but it sounds fishy to me. It's not as if Atlantic City has one monolithic casino operator whose word applies everywhere. There are several highly competitive companies involved, and if for some reason one of them imposed this policy, there's no reason to believe that the others automatically would follow suit. Moreover, the casino operators aren't stupid. They know full well that a high percentage of the people who live within walking distance of the casinos are minorities. Imposing no-walk ins policies would be opening themselves up to discrimination lawsuits. And if there's one thing the casino operators don't want, it's bad publicity.
"They know full well that a high percentage of the people who live within walking distance of the casinos are minorities. Imposing no-walk ins policies would be opening themselves up to discrimination lawsuits. And if there's one thing the casino operators don't want, it's bad publicity."
The allegation makes no sense on several levels. Why would the casinos exclude Atlantic City residents as such? Not to exclude minorities, for the reason you stated that it would open them up to major lawsuits, but also because minorities could just as likely come from OUTSIDE Atlantic City as within it -- as mentioned by another poster, the NJT train connecting metro Philadelphia (Camden) and Atlantic City is used by casino workers.
Would the casinos go out of their way to hire city residents, absent a requirement to do so as a condition of getting a license? Probably not, but that's a long way from working hard to intentionally exlcude city residents.
I ran this past my daughter, who used to work in HR at Caesars in A.C. This is her response, verbatim:
"There is great incentive among the casinos to hire Atlantic City
residents. There have also been millions of casino dollars poured into the revitalization of the city, and some areas have been entirely rehabilitated. The unfortunate thing about Atlantic City is that it is mostly poor, and was long before legalized gambling.
About the shuttle bus thing...no casino employees are allowed to park
in town - must leave all of the parking for the customers. Most people who live in Atlantic City take the jitney or bus to work. Actually, most people who live in Atlantic City don't have a car.
I don't know where your friend got his information, but it is most
definitely incorrect. The casinos are very proud of the money they've
contributed to Atlantic City, and every effort is made to hire cuty
residents. But since Atlantic City is like a big Kensington, qualified applicants are hard to find."
(Kensington is a poor section of Philly, from which my mother's family moved to Jersey in 1920; it was working class then)
My brain was turned off the first time I read this post. It's a joke. Employment redlining! I suspect Jersey Mike has resumed posting jokes over a different handle.
Kevin, I recall from a few years ago that there was some plan by a Canadian developer to do something with that barren stretch in Far Rock/Averene (sp?) area. As of late I have not heard what the outcome was. I believe the plan called for low-to-moderate income housing + the usual strip-mall provision, with one or two major chains as 'anchors'.
Only time will tell.
Doug aka BMTman
[I recall from a few years ago that there was some plan by a Canadian developer to do something with that barren stretch in Far Rock/Averene (sp?) area. As of late I have not heard what the outcome was. I believe the plan called for low-to-moderate income housing + the usual
strip-mall provision, with one or two major chains as 'anchors'.]
In terms of actual construction work, it's probably the surface-level equivalent of the Second Avenue subway.
Considering the waterfront location of the Rockaways, I can't see why people can't aim for high income housing.
Although to get to high income, you need to go through the middle class first.
Port Jervis was not really consider a "ghost town" because train service never ended to the town. If fact, that town was served by the Buffalo line of the old Pen Central I believe and was actually part of that large commuter line line that extended up past Port Jervis. When bankrupcy hit Pen Central, service beyond the town was terminated. Many towns along the commuter line have changed alot since then. For example, Goshen, NY was served by that commuter line until they decided to reroute service to another area a couple of years ago. Goshen did not die, but changed as well into another bedroom community. Most of downtown areas in many communities across NY have had to reconfigure themselves in order to survive the new shopping centers that have sprung up in the last 20 years. Maybe Jen C. was there at a time when the economy was at its lowest and now things might have changed since then.
This is just idle curiosity on my part.
Are there any busses between southern and western Staten Island and adjoining Middlesex and Union County communities such as Perth Amboy, or Elizabeth--or for that matter between North Central Staten Island and Bayone-Jersey City?
If not, then Staten Island (especially the southern end) is one isolated place, transit-wise.
:)Andrew
There are 3 routes from SI to NJ, all run by Coach USA. The 55S uns from Port Richmond to Bayonne, and the 122 and 144 go from Forest Ave and Richmond Ave, respectively, to Jersey City.
There are no routes to Elizabeth or Perth Amboy.
-Hank
Where does one get schedules for those services (other than on the bus)?
I asked for it a while ago. I wanted to plan a circular trip for when the HBLR opened.
Instead I used a car.
So am I right in assuming that Southern Staten Island is essentially an isolated place in terms of public transit? I mean, if nothing runs over the Outerbridge Crossing, then there's really nowhere to go but up.
I suppose I'd say it's a shame for Staten Island residents, but I suspect that few of them really mind. The motto for Staten Island and New Jersey seems to be the same as throughout the suburbs: "Get a car."
Indeed it is.
-Hank
Yesterday I was getting to my train at 34th S.t station. In the mezzanine area were about 20 college ages kids. The guys were all dressed in black suit, white shirt and tie and the girls were wearing nice dresses, mostly black. They were all having the darndest time trying to figure how to use and pay for the MFL subway. After waiting in line for a bit I finally got through amd once on the platform I asked what they were. Well they were College republicans in town for their own convention. I was wearing sandals and my Governor's School for the Environment T-shirt with a dolphin on it so I knew that that conversation wasn't going anywhere so I just went up to grab the RFW. All the Republicans took the middle cars so I assume that none of them were railfans. I got off at 15th to transfer to the BSL, but sadly the Republicans did not do the same so I couldn't observe their antics further. Wish I had my camera. They were so over dressed for the MFL.
And what was their attitude toward your appearance? Were those nasty rich Republican geeks judgmental vis a vis appearance? For shame!
See you tomorrow at Market East. I'll be wearing the tux.
Bob
So I have heard that the BWAY express is back. But for how long will it stay around?
The original posting on the subject said there will be four Q expresses daily until September.
The track work (replacement of the interlocking north of 6th Ave's 47th 50th St. Station) is going on every weekend for the month of August (See the Weekend G.O. for F/E/R trains) since this requires trains to operate at reduced speed through the area and during the weekday rush hours this is causing a delay where the Q merges with B/D they are sending 4 Q's down Broadway.
I assume until this work is done you will have a Broadway express. Right now the entire area is has work light strung up and the 3rd Rail is uncovered in most of the area.
I'll be taking the Q from 21st Tonight (leave work at 4pm, I have to walk from Queens Plaza to 21st St) in the hopes of catching a Broadway Express for a headend run. What a way to start the weekend.
Well don't get too used to it. There's yet ANOTHER General Order coming. Begining (tonight) Friday at midnight and continuing for two weeks 24 hours a day 21st. SHUTTLE SERVICE RETURNS! All Q service will operate to 57/6 for the duration. So there will be no Broadway Express. It wasn't fun anyway. We were loosing 18 minutes in the process and it cost me any break at all at Brighton Beach.
From Prince Street to DeKalb was a long conga line.
I noticed the Broadway Express always got low priority at Canal. The train I was on had to wait for the N we passed at 34th st. to go in first. The T/O raised hell over the radio about being held there every time for no reason (and thus missing his break), giving them a few choice words about how they run the railroad, but you can't fight City Hall tower...
When they ran the midday Q Broadway express service diversion during 1995, service was very smooth and seemless. I assume the schedule was carefully crafted to avoid bottlenecks south of Prince.
The thing is, there weren't bottlenecks. It was a clear track, people appeared to have been waiting 10+ mintues for that N we passed at 34th, and they still refused to let us through. The only good that came out of that is that lower Manhattanites all crowded on the N, leaving very few people on the platforms to do the old "If I don't know what it is, I hold the doors until I figure it out" trick.
What trains will they be using on the Queensbridge shuttle?
It would probably be 60' cars, since that's what they did last time, because they only ran 8 car trains (no need for more). R-32s were the previous car of choice, but we'll all find out tomorrow (or possibly Monday, they still might yank R68As from the B for the weekend, but they will be required for mainline service on Monday).
Oh good! That means I can get a front window view of the 63rd street tunnel from a Broadway line train. I could get a different vantage point of the 63rd street line. Never been through 63rd street on a train originating on the Broadway line before.
I rode the 1705 from Queensbridge yesterday, and after Union Square it did take FOREVER. There were delays on the local track, so when we were at the crossover north of Canal, we waited for an N (running "express") to pass us first. Then the T/O called on the radio entering City Hall, and then left the train for about seven minutes. He used the word "comfort" on the radio so I can only assume what was going on, as the entire BMT backed up behind us. All greens after that, though! The platform signs at DeKalb read 5:50pm when we pulled in -- 45 minutes!
As always, the looks of confusion on the platform are worth the price of admission.
I kept on wishing we could some how sneak over the south side of the bridge!
The south side has about 3 steel beams going directly across the 2 tracks about 2' above the third rail, 2 near the Brooklyn portal and 1 about 500' west. No trains going there for a while.
Baaaah! You're gonna let a little things like solid steel beams stop ya? Get a running start.
Henry,
I see those steel beams every day. What are they for?
JDL
I was on the Q train today for quite a while (got on at 21st - Queensbridge at 6:30, left Ocean Pkwy at 9:45pm) as part of a spur of the moment marathon railfanning session from 10am - 10:30pm.
The Q I rode out from 21st Street was given the wrong lineup at Prospect Park. The T/O realized it and called the tower. The tower insisted that he take the lineup anyway, so we made only express stops running on the Coney Island-bound local track. What a waste, with a D right in front of us. When we got to Brighton Beach, we pulled in on the same local track (and the Q behind us actually got in before us), so it took 2 T/Os to do a reverse move into the elevated yard to put the train back on the "right track" for its next trip to Queens.
I then decided I was going to take the next Q back to Pacific Street and try to catch one of the last M trains for the evening. As a result of the wrong lineup and associated move, the next Q to leave Brighton Beach for 21st Street was late. To make up the schedule, the T/O was informed to stop at Sheepshead Bay, and then the next stop would be Church Ave! Oh boy! Super-express on the Brighton Line with a slant-40, and I had my camcorder yet! What a treat!
Well it wasn't long before the Q train's designated bum (every train has one) realized that he would get to Church Ave much sooner than expected, and he decided to join me in the front and become an "instant railfan" for the battery run. "Gotta keep a schedule", he shouts. Then to make small talk, he "volunteers" to me that he just got out of jail to do community service and asked me if I would have stayed in jail for a full sentence or if I would have gone for community service. I politely replied that I have no experience in this area. While he was "nice" and I didn't feel threatened, his use of language forced me to turn off the camcorder, so while I experienced this magnificent battery run, I was not able to record it. Cest la vie.
But there's always a silver lining. Deciding not to catch the M train, I got off at Prospect Park and took the next Q back to Brighton Beach at dusk, and then went to Ocean Pkwy to witness all the Q trains between 8:30pm and 10pm being sent to CI yard for the weekend. Some great nightime views of the slant-40s climbing the grade to West 8th St. I was also able to take in fireworks at Coney Island as a backdrop. Then it was off to Nathan's for a late dinner. A fine way to end a great day of railfanning.
I also noticed that at Dekalb Ave, heading towards Coney Island, there is still a 3-car marker sign hanging. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else. (I mean, it's been over 30 years since the AB standards last plied this route!)
Finally, after my lunch stop at Lefferts Blvd & Liberty Ave (the end of the "A" train, and yes, I was all over the place Friday), I noticed that at the intersection of Liberty Ave and 118th St, there is still a red over green traffic light (no yellow signal). I thought they were all gone by now.
--Mark
AFAIK, there are still red-over-green traffic signals in the Rockaways. The red lights have even been replaced with LEDs! See this. (Warning: There are lots of images on that page, and I've been informed that some browsers don't like that. If yours is among them, go here instead and select the "twolights.jpg" link instead -- or just go to http://www.crosswinds.net/~grenbrgr/roads/twolights.jpg. Unfortunately, since it's on Crosswinds, I can't link directly to it here.)
>>...he was "nice" and I didn't feel threatened,
>> his use of language forced me to turn off the camcorder..
Whynot just keep on taping as norm, and pluck out the
audio tracks (keeping the video tracks) in
duplication or (in my case) transfer-to-vhs mode??
I didn't want to be bothered with editing it later.
--Mark
is it True that LIRR and MNRR require College to become a Conductor or Engineer?
Also, for LIRR Can I start as a Usher?
At least with the title of assistant conductor, they require some college and prior experience handling cash.
NOTE: After experiancing some fallout from my fake news articles, I like George W. will now slip slide back to the middle and prersent some traditional humour that the whole family can enjoy.
I was thinking what some of the events at the 2000 Subway games being held in Sidney would be. I have come up with the following:
Turnstyle Jump: Scored on both technical and artistic elements.
Moving Train Hop: Runners run to board a moving train. Fastest train speed at time of entry wins.
3rd Rail Hurtle: Runners must run on simulated subway tunnel and jump over 3rd rails set at intervals.
Make the Connection: Trains move about the city. Entrants must leave the train and make a connection w/ another train. runers who don't make it are cut. Each available time decreases between each new round.
Token Toss: Entrants will try to toss a token in the slot from 5 feet away. Highest % wins.
Can you guys think od some others?
No 3rd Rail in Sydney, Canatary so make it a pole vault, and no tokens they use like the metro card, but for 2 hrs, daily, weekly, monthly and even yearly.
Well some of the events would occur on sets built in large open areas or in special built venues.
Bundje jumping from the west 8 st station.
Marathon from Stillwell ave along the brighton line to Prospect park.
Weight lifting the 3rd rail.
Laying the track.
Subway car repair.
Track & field at the Coney island yard.
Draging 1 subway car from Ocean parkway to brighton beach.
3rd rail shoe throwing.
Train race along the sea beach line.
Pole vault over the EL structure.
Metro card swipping marathon.
Throw the Metro card into the MTA Hat.
3rd rail show bowling.
3rd rail shoe golf at Coney island yard.
Subway map drawing.
Yesterday I boraded a PATCO train at 15/16th and got the railfan window. Because of the convention they were running 6 bangers all day and the 1st car was pretty lo density (3 people). Well we set off, but the lead car had a terrible shake to it and the driver was having to manualize the train. The problem was a very flat wheel in the last truck on the first car. On the 40mph bridge the up and down shaking got so bad he had to keep the train about 30 and called Center to report the problem. The train squealed on the slightest curve and on the hi speed section everything in the car was rattling loudly. I went back to the rear of the car and stoof over the defective boggie. It was quite a ride. But seriously, at times I thought that the train was going to derail the shaking got so bad. It was car #215 an old Budd built car.
hey mike... did the train operator tell you to go and stand over the truck with the bad wheel?... i was wondering if he recognized that maybe you had the kind of vibes that would offset the shaking coming from the truck?... or more probably you seem about as shaky as the bad truck...
no, the shaking of jersey and the truck would cancel each other out thus smoothing the ride for the other three passengers
Ok, I'll see you guys tomorrow for the bug subtalk trip. I'll be waiting in the Reading bound Market East platform with a cardboard "Subtalk" sign. I'll bring my scanner and my cheapo camera cause I mainly want to take pictures of signals. I'll be on the platform from 9;45 untill the R7 from Trenton arrives. Does anyone know what to do in the NJT/SEPTA connection in trenton is missed? I'd say call a pay phone if I knew the number.
Meet the next R7 from Trenton and see whether any SubTalkers get off.
Well, I just realized I cannot go tomorrow. I post this after several minutes of cursing at my stupidity of procrastinating the week's chores (laundry, groceries, sheet laundry, wash windows, cut ivy off windows, sweep/mop/wax floors, clean bathroom and kitchen). What was supposed to be spread out over several days I must do in one weekend, since a guest might be coming and the apartment must be in good shape and well stocked.
I'm working all day, enjoy yerselfs
to any current or former t/o's out there; i'm curious about the working conditions--how many hours do you typically work per day/week, is there ongoing training throughout your career, which shifts are best, what is the strangest thing that's ever happened to you on the job?
On the night of Saturday July 29th, the N trains were not running for at least 30 minutes, and maybe closer to an hour. This was around 11:00 PM. I was at 49th street, but also talked to people down at Canal and they saw no trains either. Only the express R trains were running. Does anybody know what was wrong?
A co-worker claims that the Lex local backs up behind the last stop at Brooklyn Bridge during rush hour. It also arrives mostly empty, while the Lex Express is packed, since few people are traveling to the Civic Center relative to points south.
Would it make sense to extend the local tracks west, say of Vesey, to a more efficient terminal near the WTC? You'd get more people on the local and off the express that way, and turnaround would be reduced. Note that on the west side, the local terminates after serving all of Lower Manhattan.
Does anybody with the inside scoop know if there will a 2000 Subways Guide printed this year? The latest one I have is the 98 edition.
They have a subways guide? What's in it? Where can I get one?
That's the...
running on...
's
questions.
same here??
what exactly happened wednesday night in terms of derailments and fires?
I thought there were only two fires in downtown Brooklyn, resulting in one train having to back to Bowling Green...
Does anybody knows what co,build the L.A. red line subway cars,and
where can i get the rolling stock data.
BREDA and you can use their web site
yes BB but what IS there website? is that your final answer?
Back on the road! I saw it going the other way at Queens Plaza on the E, had to run up, over, down, and through 8 cars, but got to it. New floor, same cracked window and dented cab door. 3731 had a rare moment in the sun, as it was the head motor for the first time I've seen in ages (usually its 3730).
I would estimate there are about 20 R32's with the new black floor released for service.
I've ridden the E line every afternoon for a month and I've never seen one of them. Bad luck, I suppose.
Hello Everybody,
Pictures of the Columbus Circle Tower, Jay St. Tower (A video of Jay St. as well), 34th St. BMT Tower, P.S. 248 NYCT-RTO Training Center and the abandonded lower level of the BMT City Hall station have all been added to my website www.zdeno.com . In addition to all of this, I also have put many more R68, R32, R38, and R46 pictures up. I also took some pictures of the LED signals on the Sea Beach line which I will put on the site next week.
Hope to see many of you at Paul's tomorrow
Enjoy,
Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Does anyone have any specific information about this never-purchased subway/el car? How far did the plans get before the city torpedoed the concept?
I wrote a letter to TA to get some subway maps. I received several copies of the May 2000 edition of the Map today. I am surprised that they are multi-lingual editions.
I am wondering how many editions the May 2000 edition has. Multi-lingual edition or both multi-lingual and original edition?
Chaohwa
How many did they send you? I need to get some - my last copy of The Map is fomr 98, when 57/6 was under renovation and they were running special S trains through the 63rds
All this month that map is 100% accurate.
Need SIR timetables, MTA NYC Transit subway or bus maps, or express or local bus timetables, please send a self-addressed, stamped envelope ($.55 for The MAP, $.33 for everything else, one stamp per item requested) to:
MTA New York City Transit
Customer Assistance
370 Jay Street, Room 712K
Brooklyn, New York 11201
Please indicate what you want.
I requested 4 maps. So I send a self-addressed stamped envelope to TA to get these maps.
Chaohwa
At one time a few years back I was able to download the Map from this site on Adobe pdf format. Is it still available on this site or a different site?
No, you were never able to download the official map or anything in pdf format from www.nycsubway.org.
Try the official site. www.mta.nyc.ny.us.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave
After I went to NYC this morning, I got the answer.
The answer is they have both versions.
Chaohwa
I got to see one of those orange CSX diesels here today at fairly close range.
It was numbered 9718, and appeared to me to be a GP-40! When this was discussed about a month ago, there were comments that it might have been a GE U-23.
Neatly painted under the number on the cab side were the words "Maintenance of Way".
The paint job seemed to be a good one, and other than being orange, did not look bad. The lettering seemed to be in black.
I must be getting old in that I find it hard to believe that GP-40's have been relegated to work train service.
It was numbered 9718, and appeared to me to be a GP-40! When this was discussed about a month ago, there were comments that it might have been a GE U-23.
The original units in work train service were B23-7 units, but that was several years ago. I'm not surprised to see newer power in the orange scheme now, especially if it's an unmodified (non Dash 2) Geep.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back when the SD-45 was the new kid on the block I really knew my diesels. I don't remember them as well anymore.
This may have been a GP-40-2 and I can't tell the difference.
I thought it was a GP-40, but I am sure that it was a GM diesel and not a GE.
GP40 production ended back in 1971, 29 years ago (Dash 2 started Jan 72). So what is wrong with a 30 year old Geep on MofW service?
There is nothing wrong with it at all!
I just have a problem accepting the fact that the diesel is old enough to be in M of W service. I had to give up active railfanning about four years after it was built, and still think of it being a new model.
I know what you mean Karl; I still thought of the redbirds thruthe R42 etc asthe new stuff; likewise the Sd40's (the Low-V, GG1, AB etc of dieseldom) were still the new stuff. When the computerized loco's came out such as C44-9w I woke up. (for a while) now the R142 and replacement of the redbirds [most of them] is waking me up for keeps. Wish life went as slow when you get older as it does during grade school years!
Ed,
I'm sorry but I could not get on yesterday.
I saw CSX 9718 again yesterday morning, still setting in the same exact spot. It has now been setting there at least five days. I am assuming that the unit must be shut down because I can't believe that it would be idling for five days. It is coupled to what appears to be a work car, and they are the only pieces of equipment at the west end of a very long otherwise unoccupied siding.
CSX must really be heavy on motive power to be able to leave that unit unused this length of time, even if a GP-40 is considered an antique by today's standards.
Find a picture of your GP40 at http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/GP40/9718CSX-o.jpg.
Evan,
Thanks for the picture! I am surprised to see that it looks like it is the leading unit in a regular lash-up with Conrail, or former Conrail power.
I tried to get a picture of it myself yesterday, but I could not get my wife's camera to work.
The unit sat just east of town all weekend, about 100 feet north of US 30. I think it was shut down because I could not hear it idling, but perhaps that was because of the noise of highway traffic on US 30.
I was thinking of visiting several shopping malls in New Jersey and Westchester county.
Which malls are easiest to get to by rail or bus transit and how?
Some malls I'm interested in visiting are the Westchester, Garden State Plaza, and the Mall at Short Hills.
Rockaway Townsquare Mall,Lakeland 80,(How I wish the Q ran there crusing along the Brighton-Broadway Express and Interstate 80)MCM 10 from MidTOWN DIRECT at Dover Fare $1.00. Lakeland from PABT more than Train. Livingston Mall,NJT 70,73 from Newark Penn,MCM 3 from MidTOWN DIRECT(How I wish the Slant L trains ran there)Chatham or Summit(Summit 70 only). MCM 3 also serves Short Hills Mall(How I wish for Slant L trains). Willowbrook Mall,NJT to Mountain View MCM 1 too Willowbrook,NJT 194 from PABT.
short hills mall is a healthy walk from njt short hills or summit train stations. taxis are generally available at summit (only).
Taxis-NO WAY,Dover Taxi is charging .25 more for local and $1 for Airport due to gas prices.
I think Short Hills Mall runs busses from the Port Authority Terminal on weekends to the mall.
Newport Mall is at the Pavonia Avenue station on the PATH Train.
The Westchester is all the way accross town from the White Plains Metro-North station. There may be Bee-Line routes serving it, though.
I know that in Nassau County (where I grew up) the busses (MTA Long Island Bus, then the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority) serve the malls above anything else except the railroad stations.
For what it's worth (not that you asked), Roosevelt Field is a long walk from Carle Place or Mineola LIRR stations (but there are busses from the latter), the Sunrise Mall is quite a walk from Massapequa Park. HOWEVER the Broadway Mall is only a few blocks from the Hicksville LIRR station.
:)Andrew
Lack of transit access to Malls has become an issue in many parts of the country. Malls tend to discourage transit access because they don't want low income and/or minority customers, the principle transit users in most of the U.S. They want employees, but prefer private vans, so access is limited to those with a job, and only during times when they are working.
The Sunrise Mall in Valley Stream is accessible by NYCT bus, and attracts many customers from Southeast Queens. But not customers from the rest of Nassau County.
The Sunrise Mall is in Massapequa. The mall in Valley Stream (also on Sunrise Highway) is the Green Acres Mall.
Right, Green Acres Mall. Can't keep those malls straight.
Green Acres has bad bus service from Long Islad Bus though. Only N1,2,3 routes serve the mall and these routes run on long headways. The N4 does not stop there.
Green Acres used to get people from Nassau but now it's mostly people from the minority areas of southeast Queens, and as you can guess, the mall is not as good as it used to be.
What are you saying.? Just because minorities use
the mall it doesnt make it a bad place.So where
are the minorities of Queens and Brooklyn supposed
to shop?
I'm not saying minorities themselves are to blame for the mall's shape, but rather the major anchor stores and chains in the mall.
Last time I was there, the Macy's (used to be an A&S) has not been remodeled for years, and was a mess, one of the worst Macy's I have ever seen. JC Penney and Stern's are also small, and aren't as nice as stores in malls like Roosevelt Field and Sunrise mall. Also Sears is small as well. Stern's and Macy's especially have been remodeling stores. Stern's remodeled Roosevelt Field and the Smith Haven store. Macy's has remodeled most of it's stores, like the ones in Roosevelt Field, Walt Whitman, Smith Haven, and now Staten Island. JCPenney also spruced up it's stores a few years ago, but not Green Acres. Also the Stern's in Flushing is also pretty bad.
Big chains just don't treat their stores in or near NYC (especially Queens) as good as suburban stores. I guess this also explains why shopping malls just aren't working too well in many parts of the city.
Big chains are mostly only interested in coming to Manhattan (midtown) to do business and have some sort of "thing" against minority neighborhoods. I'm not the one who's racist, I was just merely stating that Green Acres Mall could be better if the chains put more $$ into stores in minority areas. If anything chains like Macy's, as well as
Kohl's, are racist against urban multi-cultural settings, like Flushing for example. There's alot of empty spaces in Flushing, it's a busy place with great transit access, so why aren't the big chains gobbling space up there?
[Big chains just don't treat their stores in or near NYC (especially Queens) as good as suburban stores. I guess this also explains
why shopping malls just aren't working too well in many parts of the city.
Big chains are mostly only interested in coming to Manhattan (midtown) to do business and have some sort of "thing" against minority neighborhoods. I'm not the one who's racist, I was just merely stating that Green Acres Mall could be better if the chains put more $$ into stores in minority areas. If anything chains like Macy's, as well as
Kohl's, are racist against urban multi-cultural settings, like Flushing for example. There's alot of empty spaces in Flushing, it's a
busy place with great transit access, so why aren't the big chains gobbling space up there?]
I've never been in the Green Acres Mall, but based on what I've seen from the train it doesn't look to be in bad shape. The former Caldor's site was converted into a Target soon after Caldor's failed, and a large Circuit City has just been built. Granted, these are on the outside of the mall, but I don't see how the inside could be that much worse.
How's Garden State Plaza with bus access? I looked up bus routes on NJT and found the #163 that goes from Port Authority terminal in NYC to Garden State Plaza in New Jersey. About how long is the ride and how much does it cost?
#163 local - about 50 minutes
#163 express - about 40 minutes
Express trips and most local trips do not go into the parking lot, but stop on Passaic Street within easy walking distance of the mall.
Fare is $3.25
You can also take the #175 from the uptown (GW Bridge) terminal to the mall, or the #171 to the GS Plaza bus stop on Route 4.
Fare is $2.55 for those and the travel times are around 30-40 minutes.
Since it will be hot again tomorrow I am taking the #163 from PA bus term to Garden State Plaza, looks like it'll be too hot to do any subway railfanning, once it's above 90 in the city you can faint down there.
Rather go on an interesting trip through NJ and to a mall I've never been to before. Hopefully there will be a break in this weather so I can check out the 34th street-Queensbridge shuttle soon.
Well it's cloudy outside and instead I will be railfanning the subways. Will keep an eye out for R142, however I'm doubtful because of the problems they are having with them.
Malls may be interesting, but nothing beats riding the subway!
Green Acres Mall In Valley Stream Is Accessable From E/J/Z & LIRR At Parsons/Archer, Jamaica Station then Q5 Or Q85 Buses To Green Acres Mall, Mall Also Served By N1, N2 & N3 Buses.
Queens Center Mall Queens Blvd At Woodhaven Blvd, Rego Park
G Or R Trains To Woodhaven Blvd Station Or Q11, Q29, Q38, Q53, Q59, Q60 & Q88 Buses.
Kings Plaza Mall & Marina Flatbush Avenue At Avenue U Brooklyn
(I belive the only mall in US where you can Buy Or Rent A Boat And Also Park The boat while Shopping.)
#2 Or #5 trains to Brooklyn College/Flatbush Ave Station Then Q35 Or B41 To Kings Plaza, Mall Also Served By B2, B3, B9, B46 & B78 Buses
The fastest way to Kings Plaza is via the Q train and the B2.
As for the B41, half the busses go to Bergen Beach. Those are the WRONG busses, if one is to take the B41 to the mall, one is to look at the front (or side) sign and make sure it says Kings Plaza, not Bergen Beach.
When the weekly Metrocard just came out, I bought one and used it mercilessly during its valid period. When it expired, I was so used to using that card other than my main one, that I accidentally put it up for refill at $20. I realized my mistake a week later, when my mother and I were entering at Jay st., and after she went through it read "JUST USED." The token clerk said I could not transfer the balance to another card, and I would have to use it up. I bought a token and entered. A week after that, The card ran down to $1. I tried to add $.50 to it so I could get a final use, but they wouldn't let me. So, the questions:
1. When were clerks instructed to check for unlimeted ride cards before refilling?
2. Why can I not do this now? It was nice having the last time I used the card show up on the reader, so I could check my transfer status. Plus, I could lend out the card and be sure the borrower would not swipe his friends in.
3. Why can't the regular people be able to have time and cash on their card like the disabled people can?
This is a feature of the proposed refill machines I heard from the MVM helper at Union Square on a Saturday in October when the MVMs opened there.
Maybe they're holding the feature until then so that people actually have reason to use the new machines (like the fun pass only in MVM thing). Or it could be my theory that they needed to change card programming.
The software used in the booth automatically checks the card when we insert the cvard to add money.
A customer walks up and asks tyo add $15 to their card. We take their card and money and select Add value from out farecard menu. We then insert ther card into our computer. If it is an unlimited the scrteen will tell us it is an unlimited and will not allow an add value. We then tell the customer- "I'm sorry, this is an unlimited card. We are not allowed to add money to an unlimited card. I have to give you a new card."
A prior version of the software would allow adds, but that version is no longer in use.
As to why we cant combine time and money- All they tell us is "Eventually"
We then tell the customer- "I'm sorry, this is an unlimited
card. We are not allowed to add money to an unlimited card. I have to give you a new card."
LOL!!
subway-buff,
I am encouraged to hear that you actually speak to us, the customers, this politely. I wish you worked at my token booth. I must say that I've found MVMs a blessing because they do their jobs without any attitude, and I always get at "thank you"! However, I must commend you. Keep up the good work! Maybe Customer Service is what will prove all those "...will cost token-booth clerks their jobs" stickers wrong. After all, an MVM can't smile, feel pride in its work, or give directions to visitors, now, can it? :o)
Thank you! That is precisely the reason we are noty being replaced by MVMs. We will be there for our customers in case of emergency, travel assistance, MVM assistance, etc.
And that is why I pencil in "Not" on those stickers.
08/04/2000
Since SubTalk will be celebrating it's tomorrow, I thought it would be nice to celebrate mine today. Unfortunately, I gotta work today. I was hoping to journey to the Newkirk Ave. station on the Brighton Line and stand at the north end of the southbound platform. I would hold a plate with a Hostess Twinkie with a lit birthday candle while making a wish as a train of R-68's on the (D)would speed past and blow the candle out.
However, I am not sure of the TA's rules governing an exposed Twinkie and birthday candle! Oh well, there's always next year when I turn 50!
"Happy birthday to me...riding the old BMT...I wish there were Standards....Happy birthday to me"
Bill "OLDkirk"
hey happy birthday bill on your 48th birthday... now everyone knows the kind of math tutor i am...
it's a good thing you said that you would stand on the north end of the southbound platform at newkirk... if you stood on the south end of the southbound platform, a pigeon might help put out the candle... i don't know about conditions on the north end of the northbound platform or the south end of the northbound platform...
again, happy birthday, and let me know if you can make it over tomorrow... i'll have a package of twinkies for you...
Happy Birthday, Bill!
Come by heypaul's tomorrow (see "Upcoming Events" for details) and we'll do a belated celebration.
Doug aka BMTman
[I would hold a plate with a Hostess Twinkie with a lit birthday candle while making a wish as a train of R-68's on the (D)would
speed past and blow the candle out.]
Hippos blowing out a candle with their speed? Hahahahahaha!
08/05/2000
"Hippos blowing out a candle with their speed? Hahahahahaha! "
Hey Pete, have faith man! If an R-68 can blow out that candle, then who knows.....a hairpiece? Then we know we have progressed!
Bill "Newkirk"
Ever hear of the Hippo Hurricane Howler? Not that the R-68s actually have it.:-)
Don't feel to bad, Bill, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY (a few days late)
I get my turn on August 19. It'll be 46 for me.
wayne
the south end of the southbounnd platform at newkirk is pretty bad....
the voorheis ave entrance at sheepshead bay, outside of fare control is pretty disgusting...
one of the levels at west 8th in coney island ranks pretty rank..
any other bad spots in the system?... perhaps if time allows, after we submit to doug's obsession with the franklin ave. shuttle, we might check out some of the worst of the pigeon dropping sites on the system and issue a special report on the matter to the inspector general... this problem should be looked into and cleaned up...
All the pigeon droppings throughout the system should be gathered and delivered to the desk of a high-ranking MTA official just for effect (unfortunately the desk would collapse under the sheer weight of the gross -- yes that's GROSS -- tonage of bird do-do).
BTW, the unused portions of Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line are WAAAAY up there in terms of being the #1 pigeon-poop-arena. I saw a mound of bird-turd that was at least two feet high (I'm not kidding -- I had witnessses from the Canarsie Tour back in May).
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that 2 foot high pile was pretty disgusting.
Peace,
ANDEE
How do you know it wasn't bat gaunno?
In Manhattan, there is a canopy over the 58th/8th Avenue entrance to the IND 59th Street station which is the home to what must be HUNDREDS of these putrid creatures, and it is positively and utterly FILTHY and DISGUSTING beyond all description. As passengers use the stairs and escalators into and out of the station, these nasty birds can be found lined up along a railing above, pooping away. It's a health hazard.
The Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue station's home to quite a flock, and a number of surfaces in and around the station are rather crusty. Back on July 9, I saw one pigeon ride out of the station on the roof of R46 #5898.
Pigeons actually live in the 168th Street-Broadway station of the #1/#9 line. They make their nests in the brickwork.
PIGEONS - the only things I hates worse than PIGEONS are Diesel Coaches! :o>
wayne
Yes, but if you're the MTA, you can't shoot them, you can't posion them, and you'll probably get hit with a lawsuit by animal rights groups if you tried to administer some form of pigeon birth control. About the only thing you can do is stick a plastic owl in their roosting area and hope that scares the stupider ones away.
Pigeons feed on garbage like rodents and behave just like rats do, except they fly. Why don't we see enviro-freaks suing "rat killers" instead of "pigeon killers"? Because of image. To me, a pigeon is a flying rat. But to enviro-freaks, their screwed up thinking lets flying rodents escape control.
A flying rodent is a bat. A pigeon is a gutter bird, a feathered rat or a desiease bag. The best way to control pigeons are to bring south american lizards to eat them. Then you can bring in needle snakes to eat the lizards and finally gorrilas to eat the snakes. They, in turn, will freeze to death when winter rolls around. My dad told me a story about how back in the day in suburban South jersey my grandfather hated pigeons and one day after church he took his semi-automatic Mauser rifle and shot all the pigeons of the roof of the neighbor's house. I am convinced that "the day" was so much cooler than "today".
Pigeons are rats with wings.
The only thing I hate worse than pigeons (in terms of animals) are mosquitoes. This hatred is even before the whole W Nile thing.
Basically, rather than spraying with Malathion or other carcinogenic compounds, I think that there should be a mosquito DISEASE created by humans. All mammals and reptiles would be carriers to the virus/bacterium which would do no harm. When the mosquito bites, the pathogen would stay in its crop so that it can be passed over to the breeders in the colony. The pathogen would work twofold:
It would lenghten the life of the mosquito so that it can spread the disease further
The mosquito breeders and queens would be sterilized
Their population would briefly increase, then dwindle considerably.
Humans would modify the disease every so often so that it can keep up with the mosquitoes' immune systems and making sure that it affects NO OTHER creature, except for other useless bugs perhaps.
The problem with using humans as hosts is that it can mutate to affect humans. That's something that has to be figured out when we finally have the technology to rid ourselves of these lower life forms.
Ever since my trip to London and trafalgar square I think that most pigeons are ok (the once over there are so nice.) I know that some look a little ratty and some are covered in their own filth, but a slim majority of them are perfictly ok. I have a big problems with rabbits, squirrles and chipmunks or hopping rats, tree rats and striped rats. My problem with them is that they are basically as rats, but they have evolved to have various attachments that make then appear "cute" to humans. If you took away that puffy tail or those big ears or those stripes and puffy cheaks you'd just be left with a rat. Those woodland rats are brainwashing the human community. Where I live the "rat" population is srkrocketing. I have seen 3 generations of rabits already this season. They are all over my yard, eating flowers etc. The squirrles are gnawing on our wooden padio furnature and at oe point they made a nest in my car. They worst part is that these cute and cuddly creatures won't let me pet them. There is a squirrel nest in one of our trees and one of these days I'm going to go at it with a pole saw.
You should see what the rabbits and squirrels say about you destroying their habitat with house, driveway, etc. The excavation for your basement probably destroyed their subway completely.
Well I live in a real town that has history and a grid layout. My house dates from 1941 and the neighbor's house dates from like 1920 (she has a 1000 gal underground oil tank, talk about cool) so if it did destroy any rodent subway system, it would have had to have been built a long time ago. Although it might explain how we get those squirrles in our basement from time to time.
[My house dates from 1941 and the neighbor's house dates from like
1920 (she has a 1000 gal underground oil tank, talk about cool)]
Not so cool if it begins to leak and she gets hit with the cost of environmental remediation.
[Back on July 9, I saw one pigeon ride out of the station on the roof of R46 #5898.]
I got something to beat that. Last year, I saw 2 pigeons board an F train at the West 8 Street station. They got off by the time the train left Kings Highway.
At Dyre ave, Lefferts, Astoria, Coney Island, and Both Rockaways I frequently see birds walk onto the train, look around for a while, and get off before the train leaves. One time I saw one grab and fly a tin foil ball off the train. Specially trained by the car cleaners?
I don't know of any subway stations with a pigeon dropping problem but it's pretty bad at Lippman plaza in Flushing. The "flying rats" feed on all the garbage there and leave a big mess.
Funny you should ask.
In 1998, the MTA completed a multimillion dollar remodeling of the Woodside (LIRR)/61st St (IRT) station. It took them three years to finish. They installed what they're calling a waiting room, but is really an open space with a few benches. In front of the ticket booth, they've propped up a hastily produced 'Ticket Office' sign. Kind of a homespun folksy touch.
But the distinguishing characteristic of the place is the fact that they left all kinds of bars and girders exposed on the ceiling. And the pigeons are all over the place, and boy, do they rain down the sh!t. White blotches all over the floor. There's one bench in particular that periodically gets assaulted by the birds and they clean it off, only to be covered with the white glop again pretty quickly.
And they coulda prevented it if only they had installed a proper ceiling (as they did directly above some of the benches). The birds fly over there anyway and crap on that too.
I gots no idea where the millions went on the station improvements at Woodside...unlike recent reno's at Bayside and Port Washington, the one at Woodside is for the boids, literally.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don’t know about this system . . . but on PATH, Journal Square for years took the prize, generally on the southernmost side of the station.
I think they're putting up a new ceiling there.
Lets see...
Gun Hill Rd / Pelham Parkway (5)
168 st (1)<9> (Worse now with those crappy new lights for them to roost on)
Jamaica (LIRR); The spikes on top of the flipper signs (mezzanine) have mostly fallen off, and are basically useless. Birds also divebomb commuters.
I probably know of more, but haven't been to many elevated stations in a while.
In Philly, Fern Rock on The BSL, and any outdoor station on The MFL are basically used as American Standards by the pigeons. If only they learned how to flush.
The guy who figures out a foolproof way to housebreak birds will make a fortune. I mean, we gotta change the paper in the birdcage every other week and parakeets have been housepets for the last 100 years or so.
Two pretty good ways to control pigeons.
1. Corn with pigeon birth control impregnated. They eat it, lay eggs, but the eggs are sterile.
2. Start getting peregrine falcons to set up houskeeping on tall buildings. It seems to work in Baltimore, where a a pair have a permanent roost on the USF&G building's 14th floor. The building's owners keep the project going. The falcons mate for life, and are the natural enemy of the pigeon. There's another pair that has roosted on the Key Bridge. There are still a lot of pigeons in downtown Baltimore, but not as many as there were 30 years ago. The falcons usually raise 2 or 3 broods per season, and the eyases (young falcons) consume 4 or 5 pigeons per eyas per day. (Burp)
Baltimore (transit) pigeon story. Irvington Car House used to be home to a large flock of pigeons, who roosted in the carhouse's upper story. One day, one of the birds managed to fall into a bucket of yellow paint. The bucket turned over, and a VERY wet, yellow bird tumbled out, shook itself and waddled into the carhouse depths. Several weeks, at City College (my high school, despite the name) what shows up in the local pigeon population? A Chrome Yellow pigeon.
BTC tried method #1, the population reduced slightly, but the pigeons had to find a new home after September 1964, when the carhouse was torn down, having been closed on the last day of operation, November 3, 1963.
I recently saw a two hour program on PBS titled "Railway Adventures Across Australia". I thought it was quite interesting and learned a bit about the history of railroads in Australia as well as many pictures of steam locomotives. Railfans should look for this program in the PBS schedules.
Tom
All I ever hear about these things is how they slow down trains. What is their primary purpose? My guess is to slow down fast moving trains on steep downhills. How close am I?
The answer is here...
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/timesig.html
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
That's part of the story; even though called GRADE timers by the rule book they can be employed to enforce speed restrictions on curves, interlocking apporaches, and wherever it is deemed absolutely necessary. There's the better two-block system where if the yellow doesn't clear you get a chance to stop or slow enough for the red (second signal) to clear; in the one block timers either you get it right or there goes your air, the tripper dumps it.There is also STATION time where several signals behind a stopped train are red and if you keep to the proper, very slow speed all but the two behind the train go yellow so you can approach the station slowly, less risk of collision.
Which subway lines employ the "one shot" system and which ones employ the better "two shot" system?
Well, the one shot clears to a green or yellow from a RED/WHITE aspect. The two shot clears from a YELLOW/S or YELLOW/D aspect. Every line can have either or. The system is chosen on the level of protection needed.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
From what I've heard on Subtalk the ex-BMT still has some one block RED timers, not red over lunar. I always thought having timers with only a red was terrible but places on the BMT have been like that for years. Believe the 14 St. tube was the discussion in point. Properly though a grade time, one block timer would be red over lunar. Everything isn't proper. ORIGINALLY IIRC the BMT and IRT had all one-block timers, the IND being more modern had two-block ones. As you say nowadays the situation is pretty much the level of protection needed. As time went by signal updates were made on the BMT and IND so the two-block system started showing there in the 50's. [Back to solid red timers, no lunar, imagine if you're doing 35, the timer doesn't clear, and there's a TRAIN IN THE BLOCK ahead?
Back to solid red timers, no lunar, imagine if you're doing 35, the timer doesn't clear,
and there's a TRAIN IN THE BLOCK ahead?
The train would not be in the block immediately in advance of
that red signal that didn't clear, but another block away. The
presence of time control on a signal doesn't prevent it from
giving the usual automatic block protection, which is double-red
overlap. But yes, without a lunar white you might be encouraged
by habit to approach that red signal not prepared to stop short
of it, and the day it doesn't clear because of a train ahead,
track circuit failure, whatever, you're in the hole.
When that happens, I'm sure the TA won't accept "but it's a timer!" as an excuse. I once was on a train where a TO crawled through an area timed w/o lunar white at about 5 MPH, until he saw all signals green. Must have had a problem there before.
I see this a lot with strings of overlapped timers, like on the Manny B. The TO's wait for the green aspect to pass the signals, and then time their speed to hit all of the greens instead of all of the yellows. Is this the way they are trained, or is this "Cover Your A**" mentality at work?
That's the proper way to take 2-shot timers. They should clear
from Y-S to G as the train passes. If they are still displaying
Y-S when the train passes, then it is going too fast.
I rode an R68 [?] D train about 4 years ago and found the ride quite annoying as whoever was running hit brakes for every one of them; [timers on the bridge]. Also I find it quite disturbing that so many T/O's crowd timers and nearly stop for many of them, you'll find the ride can be as smooth as silk and probably less stress on the T/O as well as passengers if they run at the proper speed.
Not to mention wear and tear on the brakes
So the TO's that run past a string of Y-S's are just "playing close to the wire"
Let's say you have a string of GT signals 1, 2, 3, 4 etc., and assume
all track circuits are clear as a train approaches signal 1. Signal
1 is green and has a fixed "T" or "GT" sign next to it. Signal 2
displays Y/S and signals 3 and 4 display R. Track circuit
1 runs from signal 1 to signal 2. When the train passes signal 1,
track relay 1 drops. A back contact on the track relay causes a
motorized timer relay to start running. The delay of the timer
is calibrated to be the length of track circuit 1 divided by the
desired speed limit. Usually a little slop (2 or 3 MPH) is allowed
over the posted speed limit. If the train proceeds from signal 1
to 2 at an average speed of less than or equal to the speed limit,
then timer 1 completes its cycle before the train reaches signal 2.
Timer 1 not being complete is what is holding signal 3 at red. So,
if the train is not too fast, signal 3 clears before the train
passes signal 2. Signal 2 was displaying a yellow because signal
3 was red, so now signal 2 displays a green. Signal 4 is still being
held at red by timer 2 so signal 3 displays Y/S.
If, on the other hand, the train is faster than the speed limit,
then timer 1 doesn't complete before the train passes signal 2,
de-energizing track relay 2. This switches the time control of
signal 3 from timer 1 to timer 2. Timer 2 is triggered by the
occupancy of track circuit 2. The train must now do an average
speed of no more than the speed limit, otherwise timer 2 will not
complete before the train reaches signal 3, therefore signal 3
will still be red, and the train will be tripped.
P.S. Retro-active thanks to someone who, I think, doesn't post
here anymore, "Mr Train Control", who once sent me some signal
circuit prints describing the above.
Hence the "Two Shot" nickname for the Y-S aspect. The GT "sign" aspect is something I hadn't noticed in all of my looking out the front. It's just as important as the signal aspects I would guess.
I sometimes work on automations that use motor driven cams for time delays. Do grade time signals employ similar assemblies?
{or maybe there's something with sand running through an hourglass - on the unresignalled IRT }
Stop by the Shore Line Trolley museum one day when I'm there and
I'll show you some time element relays. There are several types
but they all work on a rotating element, a gear reduction, and
a cam-activated contact.
Dig. Are you up there often? I stopped by about six weeks ago, and there wasn't much going on (midweek).
Many of the active volunteers, myself included, are there mostly
on weekends, especially Saturdays. email me in advance.
Ed, as a very good example of a Grade Timer on the BMT Eastern Division is the signal just past New Lots Ave. on the southbound (track P1) on the way to 105th.
It is a perfect location for a Grade Timer as the trackbed is on a gradual descent to grade level where there is a righthand curve.
Doug aka BMTman
Thankfully we didn't have that timer when I worked there. The heartbreaking thing was having to STOP for the public crossing.After it was removed it was a nice ride highballing down and into E105. Made some gorgeous stops with the R9's after a few practice stops. I mean being careful the first few times. As for timers I've noticed quite a growth of them especially in places where I don't really think they're necessary. Like Christopher northbound on the Bway-7th express.
In Sunday's Daily News the cover story in the
Lifeline section is "Art Goes Underground". It is a
two page story with pictures of various stations and
the art on station walls.
What lines are there that you would consider redundant, or "excess baggage?" From looking at The Map, I would say the Grand Concourse line and the 6 Ave. express. Grand Concourse seems close to the 4, and the 6 Ave. Exp stops at nearly every stop as the local. What would a "lean" subway look like?
Don't give 'em any ideas! We've lost the Culver shuttle and the 3rd Ave el since the Seventies already; lost the LIRR Rock line since the 60s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Your question (about the D & 4) might seem reasonable from the standpoint of a map. The lines running parallel within 2 blocks of each other, stopping at virtually the same cross-streets. In order to accurately answer the question, you need to get out and ride the lines. When you do, you'll see that both lines run much of the day at capacity or at least with standees. How would you eliminate either? of course, you can pare away some stops but whose do you eliminate? NIMBY in reverse? Perhaps if all 3 divisions had been built with unification in mind things might have been different.
Like a subway that couldn't handle the passenger load that currently exists, let alone the load that existed when those lines were built.
-Hank
The IND has the finest express/local combo there is. Outer-outer local trains become expresses closer in. The outer lines have few express stops and all the big central stops are served by both trains.
What the IND lacked in the BMT's technology and in the IRT's art, it made up for with superb line engineering. If only they had built more new as opposed to replacement lines.
In order to solve the problem of redundancy on the Jerome/Concourse lines, the Jerome Avenue line could be demolished and replaced with a line uphill under University Avenue. But is that something we really need to spend money on?
Horrors, I read a news clipping my mom sent me in the 80's, that the idea was about to tear down the Jerome line. Admittedly the city was having lean [and hard] times then and that area was not prosperous. Their thought were to terminate the 4 at 161- st and beyond that one had to take the D. Since the 4 was an el that of course would go. But as train Dude says there's more than enough business for both lines, probably all lines. Thankfully Jerome still survives.
But if the #4 train were ended at 161 St., couldn't the savings be used to mprove the other line and make up the difference? Just a thought!
For those here who do not work for NYCT or a railroad, if you could get a job with NYCT, what job would it be?
Project manager for the Second Avenue line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd like a job in the budget department (inside joke).
Railfan Window Installer!
Subway T/O or RR Conductor.
my wish already came true.......i'm finally a rr conductor.
My ideal subway job? A controller in the new IRT command center on 9th Avenue, once it opens.
One of my dream NYCT jobs would be as a Managerial Supervisor.
That way I could find plenty of time to visit websites and make postings 24-7.
Doug aka BMTman
i would like to be your superior... but i just checked the chain of command in the mta, and i observed that no one is superior to you...
however, if such a position existed, i would have daily 2 hour meetings, in which i would force you to listen to my best comic material... if i could get you to laugh, then i would know that the material would be a natural for my night club act... if you didn't find my material funny, at least i would get the satisfaction of knowing that i was making you suffer for 2 hours each day...
I've tried so hard to ignore you over the last few days Hence, your last post almost went un-noticed by me but it does beg a response.
Actually, you'd like to be my supervisor not my superior. You could never be my superior. I'm suprised and educated man does not know the difference. But you don't need to be my supervisor to get me to laugh. Just say something funny. You don't get it, do you?
Y O U A R E N O T F U N N Y
but even the worst comics have their cult following and you've certainly got yours. The thing is that the purpose of Subtalk was not to try out sub-par comedic material. I am sure that there are websites for that. Yet you chose to keep posting your sophomoric humor here despite protests from others besides myself. Well, it's not for me to explain what you do. You are well aware of why I do not like you personally - aside from your keen comic mind. Despite my extreme personal dislike for you, when, on a rare occassion, you asked a serious question or made a serious point, I responded in kind. You do not seem capable of the same seperation.
While I'm sure that more people here are interested in discussing real issues rather than the rantings of a 56 year-old wannabe, at this point, I have had enough of you and your moronic humor. The stage is all yours paulie.
i would feel guilty if your personal dislike for me is what drove you from the subtalk message board...
i don't doubt that you dislike me, but i suspect you are troubled with your inability to manage things here at subtalk in the same manner that you manage things up in the bronx... there people who work under your supervision have to do your bidding... here you are not my superior, and i am not bound by your likes and dislikes...
you described " the rantings of a 56 year old wannabe"... frankly at 56, i do not consider myself a mature, or happy, or set in life person... i am not married, have no children or grandchildren... if i become ill, i have to deal with my fears on my own... that is scary... most of the other people here on subtalk,including you, have richer lives than i do...
building the motorman's cab was something unusual that i did, but frankly doesn't make me feel like i am leading a fuller life...
if there is anything that i feel fortunate or blessed about in my accomplishments, is that from many years of working as a tutor i have developed some experience with the problems that people have with math... having sat with people who have suffered deeply with math, i can see things from their viewpoint and not from the viewpoint of someone who finds math easy... sometimes that helps...
perhaps another thing i feel happy about is having a screwy sense of humor... i enjoy it, not everyone does...
most importantly, i feel fortunate that over the years i have been "protected" from any real horrible things happening to me... maybe it is luck... maybe someone or some force has been looking out for me...i am grateful for that...
there was a comedy group "the firesign theater" who had an album called " i think we are all bozos on this bus", referring to their feeling that all of us are leading lives that often reflect foolishness... the foolishness often comes out of the pain and hurt of our lives...
much as i have been troubled by your attitude, i realize that you are not evil, but just another person struggling on earth to make a life...i, too struggle, maybe not hard enough to be successful
i trust you are aware of the blessings in your life, and i hope you derive much comfort from them...
I always had a secret passion to be a train operator but I chose a different path career wise in Transit. The closest I have come to my dream is operating streetcars at the Shoreline which to me is a friendly little railroad up in Connecticut. Operating on a hot humid afternoon with the smell of the creosite on the rails and the sea air does remind me of the Rockaway A line when I use to go to the beach as a young man!
One thing that this BBS has helped me realize, that just like MABSTOA all things that glitter are not gold, so I guess I'll stay where Im at "upstairs".
Shoot Railfan vidieos thru the center front inside all TRANSVERSE CAB EQUIPPED SUBWAY CARS...
since all NYC cars are not OPTO right ??
Unless some conversion I don't know about has occurred none of the Redbirds, R32, R38, R40, R42 are OPTO therefore have railfan windows.To go back to my ancient history the old IRT Gibbs cars [RIP 1958] weren't OPTO but had full width cab taking up the entire head end vestibule. The BMT Multi's were equipped for OPTO and had full width cabs whather or not it was used. GIBBS: 1904, 05; Multi: 1936.So take advantage of the Railfan windows while still available.
Motorman, preferably on the BMT no later than 1960.
Equipment Purchaser, so when a new fleet of subway cars is needed, I will specify in the contract that the carbodies will be identical to the "Almond Joys".
Tower Operator! Preferablely at a PRR tower with a US&S machine.
Click. WHOOSH. Clunk! Lock. Hiss.
President of Capital Area Transit Rail Operations Division, or CATRail. The "capital" being Harrisburg, PA, of course. My first task would be overseeing the DBOM activity for our "Corridor One" line:
Carlisle-Mechanicsburg-Shirmanstown-Camp Hill-Lemoyne-City Island-Harrisburg (Tranportation Center) via Cumberland Valley Railroad Bridge-Steelton-Middletown-Harrisburg International Airport-Elizabethtown-Mount Joy-Lancaster
Our rolling stock would be either Kawasaki LRVs powered by overhead catenary, OR 2-coach consists of Comet IV's trailing an AEM7-AC, also powered by overhead catenary, which would have to be insalled on the Harrisburg-Carlisle leg. I would make sure adequate parking lots/structures were built at the outlying stations, with a gigantic one at City Island, which would be cheaper than parking downtown. The GG-1 at the Transportation Center would be restored, the environmental problems addressed, and occasional museuem excursions would be run.
T/O.
--Mark
To take videos and still photos of all phases of the operation of the n.y.c. subways and elevated lines,and to be able to access all historical transit photos and movies.to do this and get paid too......
it's 2:25, nobody showed up.... the 6 donuts are getting stale....
I'm on my mini-web browser on my Sprint Cell Phone.........About to drive Flxible Metro B #3511 through 3025 Ocean Avenue..........YIPPIE KAY YEAH!!!!!!!!!1
I finally made it -- barely.
I was able to grab one measely doughnut before a representative of MTA came by and was about to confiscate heypaul's R-9 cab.
Apparently the SubTalk board was monitored and an RCI was sent inspect the cab for defects.
Finding hundreds of them, heypaul was advised to relinquish ownership or face time in a Forgotten New york Mental hospital.
In any event I showed up for the torture.
Doug aka BMTman
I finally got here....... The rat hole in the brick wall turned out to be the entrance.... I didn't know the apartment # so, I followed the trail of pigeon droppings.... When I got to his door, I was greeted by a pile of 5,000 copes of the New York Times.... After climbing the pile I entered the "Apartment" The padded walls give it a home like feel... "Mental home"!!! The mildew on the donuts is still growing....Pretty cool to watch... We put some roaches in the freezer...It's pretty cool to watch them thaw out and come back to life. Anyway....Wait...OH NO!!!!!! The rat is fighting me for the donut!!!!!!!!! I'm going to have to get back later.
>>>>I didn't know
the apartment # so, I followed the trail of pigeon droppings.... When I got to his door, I was
greeted by a pile of 5,000 copes of the New York Times.... After climbing the pile I entered the
"Apartment" The padded walls give it a home like feel... "Mental home"!!! The mildew on the
donuts is still growing.<<<
Did anybody say 'Collier Brothers'?
www.forgotten-ny.com
LOL Mark, I know who you are really talking about! Keep it under your hat.
Found it, After blasting through the front door at full speed with Bus #3511, i've come to find that it was a structual improvement. If you're still coming look for the a$$ of 3511 hanging out of the marque.
Arrive through the front door, I'm greeted by Mark showing me some frozen roach half thawd with the antennas shaking. The Donuts had freakin' moss on it EWWWWWWWWWWWW!
CONDEMN THE BUILDING, EVACUATE NOW SAVE YOURSELF,
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH
Seriously there were a bakers dozen of us incl. two very young men who realy enjoyed heypaul's R-9 cab. I've now added three more to the list of SubTalkers who I've met in person (it's over 40 now).
After a couple of hours and a tour of the heypauls museum ... he's been very succesful at garbich picking & has some real gems, it was on to Coney Island (we lost the Sarge & his son at this point ... they drove off in a cloud of dust).
At CI most of us took a turn on the rails of the Wonder Wheel, then my grandson, Doug & I had a go at the Bumper Cars, well they are electric powered you know. It was getting late so we got some chow to go and lost a few more of the guests.
It was my third Hippo of the day, but the B ended 36th (lots of GOs this weekend ... I caught a N R-38 that went Express down the B to CI). So at 36th we got a R-32 on the N & I insisted that we stay on when another Hippo came in accross the platform. Our operator kept his door open so we talked to him all the way to 23rd. By this time there were just four of us left to attend the UTC meeting (Doug/Mark W./my grandson & I). I only stayed for a short while as my grandson was tired from his 12 hour railfan adventure.
As we got off the LIRR he said to me "are we going to Paul's tommorow?" and before he went to bed we prearanged that he tell grandma of his ride on the Wonder Wheel as it was here favorite ride.
So for the bakers dozen it was a very plesant celerbration of this site's anniversity & Bill Newkirk's birthday.
Mr t__:^)
Agreed! This was my first SubTalk excursion and I was very impressed!
HI EVERYONE!
Trevor
i am waiting in front of the building...... yes it is heypaul's house......an abandoned building... the vermin in front said he is not here..... he is riding the hudson bergen line...... i brought pizza and was just robbed for it..... heypaul....WHERE ARE YOU??????????????????????????????????
Help I am stuck in the t/o cab of an r-68 i was coming out to heypauls and there was no service to Sheepshead bay station, so I guess I'm spending the weekend in c/i/y.
Peace,
ANDEE
I found him! I was scuba diving in the Atlantic off of Coney Island and happened upon a coral reef of an M1. He is teaching math to a school of fish and eating them afterwards.
That's almost worth a rim shot.:-)
Hello there this is Wayne, I forgot my password so I am using Mark W's handle, we are outside this apartment building but nobody is here. I was stuck at 34th Street waiting for a "Q" train to come only to be told it was Saturday (oh well), and then the "D" train was diverted to the express track and it took an hour to go from Prospect Park to Kings Hwy and the A/C went out the folks on board werent too happy about that anyway THERE IS NOBODY HERE. I keep buzzing and buzzing and buzzing and nobody answers....I'm going home! Fooey! Humbug! :o>
waye
I've decided to bring back two things from my past postings:
I'm going to change my e-mail address as often as I changed my handle during the "Humans" era, so if you want to see that, point to my e-mail, my e-mail today is SUBTALKER@BOARSHEVIK.COM.
I'm going back to the station by station tour of lines that don't exist:
This is 207th Street
The next stop on this uptown A train will be 215th Street.
--Subtalker@boarshevik.com
Does anybody remember my original station announcements? I need to know when they where (like think of something that was going on at the same time) so I can try to find them in the archive.
I already found where I became Eugenius D. Train and where I stopped being that. That doesn't help since I've used that name longer than any other except Pigs of Royal Island here.
This is 215th Street
The next stop on this A train will be Marble Hill, last stop in Manhattan.
Eugenius A. Train - subtalker@boarshevik.com
So you've decided to regress. Great. Here we all thought you had been maturing.
-Hank
I've decided to bring back the announcements, but I've scrapped the e-mail idea, since I've decided to have ONE e-mail for each service so I know where somebody sending junk got my e-mail and so that channel can be cut.
I have been looking around for a good digital still camera to shoot transit systems with etc....
I beleive that the SONY CYBERSHOT & CANON $ 600.oo & higher priced digital cams are hard to beat!! I wish i could afford such equipment however i am looking at the OLYMPUS D-360L digital camera writes tif & jpeg has ntsc vidieo line output smart media card removable etc..
It sells for aprox. $ 300.oo ( at least a running start ).....
I think i will ""mail order this from J & R audio & vidieo ..
Downloading to my bangned up old macintosh g3 would be easy with a USB cabe adaptor etc. Then i am in business!!
So. what kind od digital camera(s) do use for your rail transit photography?? & are there any APS film photographers out there ?
CONGRADULATIONS 6 YEARS OF NEW YORK SUBWAY RESOURCES !!!!!!!!!!
( thank you salaamallah)
follow up comment SCRATCH the olympus D 360L digital camera..
however i would like to see the fuji finepix 1400ZoomDigital Camera
it sells for $ 400.oo but still i guess is not as good as the cybershot SONY digital cameras !!
( what do you think )??
I say save your pennies for a real good one; by the time you have enough for a real good one, the technology will have advanced some more and prices will have fallen some more so you'll be doubly lucky. (That's my plan, at least - I don't have a particular one in mind at this point but I'm not in such a big hurry to get on the bleeding edge to spend money right now).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with you there because when I saw the OLYMPUS D-360L in person it was a BIG disapointment !!
The SONY CYBERSHOT DSC-S30 is my choice for an ultimate digital camera !! I do not need the MPEG movie & if i need to do this I have a collection of vidieo cameras !! ( thanks for the advise ) @ SalaamAllah..
sony made a camera that used a floppy disk for storage. panasonic makes one that use "super disk" you put 1500 images on it. also a lot of digital move cameras can take a still picture.
Most important is the 'ISO Equivelant' numbers. You know about film speeds, so you'd want to get a camera that could take pics with ambiant light, so you need an equivalency of around 200, at least.
Otherwise, you'll have to use flash, which is a no-no.
-Hank
unfortunately hank they do not list digital cameras as light lux like my sony tr86 at 0.6 light lux & my new sony TR 416 at a nice low of
0.4 light lux !!!!
I saw this KODAK dightal camera which sells at $300.oo has the iso of
100 200 400 800 I wish i could get iso 1600 !!!!
or 0.4 light lux with "nightshot"!!! I never use a flash at any transit car in which an operator is present !! never !!
We had a good tour of Philly transit today. I started on PATCO car 296 (Vickers) in Lindenwold and Jersey Mike got on in Haddonfield, but we ignored each other until we met on the platform at Market East, where we met Bill Steil getting off the R7 from Trenton and were joined by Transit Chuck G. After a quick trip to the Transit museum and store to buy day passes ($5) and a short wait for possible stragglers, we took the Ridge Ave subway (Kawasaki car 574) to Fern Rock, making only express stops. We returned on the same train (car 566) to Girard, transferred to a local to City Hall, then took the Market Frankford Subway-El to Bridge Street. Builders plate said ADtranz, Elmira Heights, NY; built by Daimler-Benz Transportation (car 1131). We got authentic Philly cheesesteaks in a diner across Frankford Ave from the terminal, then returned, taking in the activity of a major bus and trackless trolley depot. We took car 1046 to 13th St where we got a #36 subway-surface trolley (#9059) and rode its entire route, the highlight of which (outside the subway, that is) is running in the median of Island Ave for the last mile. We got off and watched the car go around the loop, then blow the heck out of its horn and blow by us at the first stop, as it went out of service. After a long wait for the next car, the motorman told us that he wasn't supposed to leave for a while, that there must have been a missing car. Car 9067 came along shortly thereafter, passed the previous one on the 2-track loop, and we rode back to 30th Street. MFSE car 1036 took us to 69th Street Terminal, where we took the P&W (Philadelphia and Western RR, Norristown High Speed Line, SEPTA Route 100) to Bryn Mawr (ABB car # 133) and back. This cost us a token each way, since the day pass is good only in the city. SEPTA base fare is $1.60, tokens are $1.15. A quick trip on the MFSE to 15th Street and the Broad St Subway to Walnut/Locust took us to PATCO, where we took car 295 to Lindenwold. This is the same train Mike and I took to Philly in the morning; 295 and 296 are a married pair and PATCO was running 2 car trains. I bade adieu to my fellow SubTalkers at Lindenwold.
I enjoyed meeting 3 of the people whose posts I read, and I have a better understanding of Mike. I suspect he types SubTalk posts as fast as he walks and talks (and talks and talks &c). I had a great time and look forward to my next trip with SubTalkers.
Ditto for me, too! I had a great time meeting all you guys and Bob's
report in this post is exceptional! It was finally time to meet the
faces behind the names . I kinda figured Jersey Mike was a college
type, and boy does he know his stuff!
Finally home after a long trip........
Chuck Greene
Addendum:
I neglected to mention the speedometer reading on the Ridge Ave subway while on the express tracks under Broad Street. Either Bill Steil or Chuck Greene read 63 mph northbound, and Jersey Mike read 63 mph on our southbound trip.
You also forgot to mention that kid that I saw jump down onto the BSL traks at City Hall to retrive his SKATE BOARD. He had to step on the 3rd rail cover to get back up. Kid was wearing short pants that left his shinns exposed. What an idiot.
"Hey dude, my legs like are all black and they like smell like hotdogs."
I'm sorry I missed the trip. I've been away for the past two weeks. Maybe next time...
Is there a map marking all the different entrances for each station? Where there is a distinction between uptown and downtown entrances, as well as which ones close at certain times?
I was really pleasantly surprised when i met heypaul today. I have had disagreements with him in the past, especially when he started putting the r-142's down. But when I got into the r9 motorman's cab, a strange feeling overcame me. I could feel the power and majesty of these cars. Cars which I thought were just raggedy pieces of junk now appear to me to be truly wonderful pieces of engineering. I now realize the error of my ways. I now realize that the R-142's are worthless pieces of ................
okay guys.... this is heypaul just screwing around... trevor was the last person to post from here... when i logged on just now, the message board was recognizing me as trevor... so i just couldn't resist signing on with his handle...
I made sure my handle was not the last used and boy am I glad I didn't.....
i just got back from coney island where we went after leaving here...
but i am getting ahead of myself... i can't recall there being more people in this apartment at one time than there was today
there was:
thurston and his grandson justin
andee lamb
bob anderson
trevor logan
harry beck
mark w.
a big surprise to me: jeff rosen and his son arthur
"don't hold your breath waiting for me to come" doug
bill newkirk
wayne
we hung out here for a couple of hours... most of the people found it hard to believe that a human being could live in conditions like they observed here... then we headed to coney island via the d train, and several of the guys went on the wonderwheel and the electric cars... the sarge and arthur had split when we left my house, and then bob anderson and wayne split in coney island, and finally thurston and justin and bill newkirk and i went our separate ways from the group... doug, mark, trevor,harry, and andee headed into the city...( i think i may be screwing up who went where)
while we were posting from here, we realized that none of us had wished david and his website a happy 5th anniversary... a lot of us have come to know each other from subtalk... and it has been good getting to know everyone who was with us today, as well as those who were not...
i hope the rest of the guys today felt as comfortable as i felt hanging out with them... it was very easy and a lot of fun spending time with everybody.. i look forward to getting together again...
It was a lot of fun - and the donuts were really very good!
On the way home I took the Sea Beach Line (first time in about 35 years that I've been on the Sea Beach) to Pacific St. to get to the LIRR Flatbush Ave. Terminal. The Manhattan bound trains were supposedly travelling on the express track, but my train of R-32's went local, even local on 4th Ave. portion. I stood at the railfan window the entire trip.
08/05/2000
This was the first time I checked out heypaul's Ocean Ave apartment. The first thing that impressed me was that all the rooms except the bathroom and kitchen were painted MTA blue! Now that's living!
I enjoyed the sight of numerous antique table radios, the ones from the 40's or even the 30's. Then there was the majestic R-9 cab. I was told by Mark W. that heypaul mounted the brake stand on the left and the controller on the right, opposite positions on the real thing! What impressed me about the cab mockup was that everything, including the side cab window, door triggers, pantograph gate and circuit breaker panel were about the same height as the real thing. I guess WayneMrR40slant will probably do the same thing when the slants become fodder for the scrapper. BTW- We had to restrain Wayne when we spotted a R-40 slant (N) train at Stillwell.Wayne spotting that slant was like spotting Carmen Electra in her birthday suit! Now that's a happy birthday to me!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well I'm sorry I couldn't come but you know the way those LI Bus schedules are, can't really do too much on the weekend. And
I believe there is no OB branch service on weekends (buses only) due to LIE Bridgework.
Brooklyn is about a 3.5 hour trip from here. I got a 90 minute bus ride to Flushing, then a few more hours on the subway with all that work going on. Of course the bus ride is the most unpleasant thing, I wish that 7 train ran up to Sea Cliff!
BTW, since I hate my bumpy walls I'm thinking of doing something crazy, covering them with used METROCARDS! I should make a "Metrocard"
border where I hang my NYC subway calender. For August I have a beautiful picture restored Q types on the Sea Beach. Also picked up a book with train pictures from all over the world (even a Hippo "D" train from NYC) for $15 in Borders. The book is "The Ultimate Encyclopedia, Steam and Rail". Huge book and a LOT of pictures.
Also been studying Peter Dougherty's book "Tracks of the subway" looking at the Broadway track connection to 63rd street as I'm planning on riding the "shuttle" to Queensbridge next week. Wonder if I'll get a better look at the unused platform on the other side.
Gotta go now, I gotta catch another centipede running across my floor!
[Brooklyn is about a 3.5 hour trip from here. I got a 90 minute bus ride to Flushing, then a few more hours on the subway with all that work going on.]
It was a 45 minute ride on the LIRR for me, then about 1/2 hour on the "D" subway from Atlantic Ave, well actually we caught a R-38 on the "N" to CI first because we were very early. Then a "D" from CI & we were still 1 hour early. heypaul "came down for the mail" about 12:30 so my grandson got some serious handle time in the R-9 cab. Later Mark W. loaned him his keys & he had fun locking & unlocking the cab door.
Mr t__:^)
I don't know about comparing R40s to Carmen Electra (I'm a Liz Hurley fan myself)...
-- but a Happy Birthday to you, Bill!
That "N" Slant was probably the one they use for the "B" on weekends, and it was probably the only one running. The "B" was being run as a lowly shuttle, with slowworm R68a's.
Oh BTW - guess what I saw in the yard, resting up for Monday's work - #4310-4311, the one used in "The Cowboy Way", signed up as Q.
wayne
I must admit Ms. Hurley is good-looking.:-)
Glad to hear everyone had a good time. Did everyone try to squeeze into heypaul's cab at the same time?
I had a great time and my son Arthur (who will be 4 in two weeks) is still talking about it. The Motorman's cab was even better than I ever expected it to be, right down to the authentic door. (that R1-9 cab door brought back alot of memories as I spent many long hours leaning against R1-9 cab doors while looking out the railfan windows)
Everybody there was so nice and the conversations were like subtalk threads!!! Although I really had to get home to prepare for a trip to Saratoga Springs tomorrow, when I left Paul's house and turned onto Emmonds Av to get onto the Belt 'lil Arthur started begging me to park to see the boats. So as a good father I parked and way took a long walk around Sheepshead Bay, the first time I did that in many, many years.
P.S.-By the way, did anyone else spot that gorgeous girl with the tight dress that got out of the elevator when we were waiting in Paul's lobby? I had to keep on reminding myself that I'm married!!!
[P.S.-By the way, did anyone else spot that gorgeous girl with the tight dress that got out of the elevator when we were waiting in Paul's lobby? I had to keep on reminding myself that I'm married!!!]
You mean Ms. Leggs-A-Plenty? Yeah, I noticed, too (and so did just about everybody else).
That's why I asked Paul if he could find me an apartment in his building ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
doug... this building is a coop, and you would have to be interviewed by the board of directors... they would probably shoot you down, if you didn't promise to sell your car, and buy a vehicle that did not take up 3 parking spots...
"[P.S.-By the way, did anyone else spot that gorgeous girl with the tight dress that got out of the elevator when we were waiting
in Paul's lobby? I had to keep on reminding myself that I'm married!!!]
You mean Ms. Leggs-A-Plenty? Yeah, I noticed, too (and so did just about everybody else). "
Well I'm a bit different. I have a thing for chinese girls, especially those that come fresh from China. And the girls are alot cuter in Chinatown than in Flushing, that's for sure! Especially when they wear those cute little dresses!
Unfortunately there is very little of that for a single guy like me here in the far, removed delapidated village of Sea Cliff. And the only good thing we had is now gone, that being the Sea Cliff village trolley! Someday I'll get a one-way ticket out of this "one bus an hour till 8pm" town.
08/06/2000
Jeff,
Oh yeah! That image is burned in my mind with no intentions of extinguishing the fire! I wonder if heypaul talked her into standing in his R-9 cab with his R-9 tape playing? Did you have to remind yourself you were married of did you feel a jolt of electricity coming from your wedding ring?
As far as Doug's Chrysler is concerned, it could just about fit into a regulation bus stop!
Bill "Newkirk"
"most of the people found it hard to believe that a human being could live in conditions
like they observed here..."
You should see my apartment. The walls are slanted, so is the floor. Windows aren't level and I got no insulation.
Also I got some pretty old electrical outlets. Did I mention it's often 90F in here? And there are lots of cracks and crevices where all kinds of creatures like, such as Centipedes, Earwigs, and Wasps.
After all this is Sea Cliff, land of old buildings and LOTS OF WEEDS!
Some say Sea Cliff is a haunted old town.....
It's not like you own the place, why can't you move?
Currently cannot afford to move out. Apartments on Long Island are bad in general. I might have to go to Queens if I really wanna get out of this place.
And I just got the latest forecats, looks like 90s for Monday through Wednsday. Gonna be roasting in here no insulation. Just got a new more powerful A/C but when there's no insulation there's nothing to keep cool air in, plus being on the 2nd (top) level.
I hope there will be enough electricity to go around, and there won't be more blackouts or brownouts affecting the subways.
I was planning on riding the 34th street shuttle to Queensbridge on Tuesday as well as R142 hunting, hopefully the heat won't mess those plans up.
I wouldn't mind moving back to Queens if I could find a place that let me use the yard.
wayne
...wishin' I ... wishin' I was there with you's!!
reporting from Champaign, IL..
I had a very good time; wish I could have stayed longer, but I had business to tend to back at home. I took the "N" back, thinking I'd get a Slant and a ride up the express track due to a G.O. but NO - I got #2850 (an R68) and a nice ride up the LOCAL track, making every stop. My train was to be the 6:05 out of Penn Station. This is a major connection, so I decided to take a chance on getting to it via Flatbush Avenue LIRR and I got off at Pacific Street. I was about ten minutes early for the 6:04 out of Flatbush, and I made it home OK.
Many thanks to heypaul for his hospitality and to everybody for their company - we have to do this again in the future. I wish I could have stayed longer.
wayne
Hey Paul, do I get to see it, when I come in for the Madison Reunion in November, before the open house at the school??????
"Hey Paul, do I get to see it, when I come in for the Madison Reunion in November, before the open house at the school??????"
sure bob... i have had inquiries from the alumni association to have the reunion in my apartment... i would cater it with donuts and soda like yesterday...
Thank you ,paul, for your hospitality. It was a pleasure meeting people just as crazy as I.
Peace,
ANDEE
And remember the next time we have a get togather at heypaul's you don't need a mustard stain on your shirt to gain admittance !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, that reminds me -- why didn't Paul have a secret password that would've gained us entrance to his apartment?
Something like "Swordfish", perhaps?
Let's keep that in mind for the next get together.
Doug aka BMTman
You mean he can here what is said into the intercom in the lobby ?
Mr t__:^)
LUTEFISK.
It was also good to see Bill Newkirk and Jeff Rosen w/his son as there was no prior knowledge that they were going to make the trip.
Glad that everyone had enough dougnuts -- stale or otherwise -- and even the little ones had a great time horsing around with the R-9 cab.
Unfortunately, we couldn't do a "how many guys can you fit in a VW" type photo op. (Speaking for myself, we would've needed a full-width cab for a shot like that!)
It was alot of fun meeting up with my fellow SubTalkers.
Now all we need are the pictures, right Harry?? (High St.)
Doug aka BMTman
Wish I could've made it, but I had one of those pesky 'family committments'. Sounds like it was a blast.
Well, maybe another time, if Paul would WANT any of us in his apartment again.
sure... i'd be happy to have people over again...
This question is a bit technical so bare with me. When a train pulls into a station where there is a diverging route. I am assuming the T/O will punch in the route. Are the switches and signals automatically set or after the T/O punches in the route they go to a master tower where an actual person must set the route up?
I can think of no place on the NYCT where route request punches are automatic. To the best of my knowledge, they all go to a tower where the tower operator sets the route.
Looking at the PATH rule book, I find at least 6 different signal aspects for diverging routes.
LEFT = R-G R-Y-Y or R-Y
RIGHT = G-R Y-Y-R or Y-R
I find it strange that PATH identifies Left or right while most properties identify Diverging or Normal, thereby limiting the possible number of signal aspects. Anyone know of another property where left and rignt are not the same aspect?
Looking at the PATH rule book, I find at least 6 different signal aspects for diverging routes.
LEFT = R-G
R-Y-Y
or R-Y
RIGHT = G-R
Y-Y-R
or Y-R
I find it strange that PATH identifies Left or right while most properties identify Diverging or Normal, thereby limiting the possible number of signal aspects. Anyone know of another property where left and rignt are not the same aspect?
On the PATH it's actually very simple - left when the bottom half of the signal is yellow or green, right when the top half is yellow or green. Think of it as a pair of signals, one for the left route and one for the right, stacked on top of each other.
Just like the old IRT.
That type of signalling would come in handy if there was a three way switch. I have never seen one in person, I did install one on a previous model railroad board and promptly removed it. The closest IND signal that would fit the description is the home signal at 168 St on A2, which tells you mainline (Y/A4/Y), yard indication signal (Y/Y/Y) or the call on (R/R/Y). Straight iron to yard lead A2, right to the mainline or left to yard lead A1. 238 Street and 180 Street on the White Plains Lines have multiple home signals indicating second diverging routes as well.
On approach to Main Street, there's a signal on the middle track. Bottom green indicates that the train will enter Main on the middle track. Two yellows would send it to track 1 (left), and three yellows send it to track 2 (right).
If the fellow who posts as "Subway Al" notices this thread he'll
give a definitive answer. H&M used to have a unique system of
dual side-by-side homeballs where the left-hand signal head
gave the information for the left-hand route and similarly for the
right-hand route. I think these are all gone now.
Why did the FRA let PATH switch from the PRR position light signals on the extra-terrianian part of its route? Also, with such a strong PRR heritage why did PATH convert to route signaling. I would have figured the PA to be smart enough to realize that trains can't align their own routes.
Most NX/UR interlockings (push-button machines) have the
ability to run on "automatic" where the punch box triggers
a lineup just like pressing the entrance button associated with
that route on the panel. The towers are left on automatic when
they are not staffed. One example that comes to mind is 50&6 Ave
where the tower is always on automatic.
On our "N" ride uptown the T/O had to punch in twice. One of the signals had a "D" vs. "S" on the bottom. I asked what was the D for he responed "Diverge" & sure enough we moved from local to express track.
Mr t__:^)
I just got a very strange fare box. The former owner claims its from a New Orleans horsecar. This piece is about 18" high, about 8" wide and 6" deep. The body is hardwood, with brass nails and plates. The entire front is glass. On the inside, there are movable "windows" each about the size of an index card. Each window has a different denomination listed on small brass plates. The windows move when outside brass levers are depressed. There is a removable metal coin box in the bottom, slides into a drawer type receptacle in the bottom of the unit.
There is no builders plate. Anyone know what this thing is?
Thanks,
Bob
I'm sick of making this announcement
This is 231st Street
The next stop on this A train will be 242nd Street
Eugenius A. Train -subtalker@boarshevik.com
08/05/2000
I have seen on a pocket fold out subway map given out at heypaul's bash that the 241st St/White Plains Rd station has been renamed Wakefield/241st St. I also noticed this at Times Sq on those enamel signs showing the routes and destinations.
When did this come about? I assume this area was once known as Wakefield years ago?
Bill "Newkirk"
It makes sense, since all of the other stations are on White Plains Road and the line is called the White Plains Road line, so White Plains Road is assumed automatically.
I assume, for lack of a better name, it is still called Wakefield. After crossing, the MNRR and the Bronx River Parkway (and the Bronx River itself) on one viaduct, 241st Street enters the City of Yonkers and becomes Wakefield Avenue (or Road, I don't recall).
Wasn't one of the old New York Central (Metro-North) stations kown as Wakefield a long time ago?
Not up on the history of the area, but with that big cemetary west of Webster Avenue, maybe there was a big field where they had the wake before the burials? :-)
That's a great theory.
I wish I still had History in Asphalt by McNamara to put an end to the dispute.
Last week we had a few posts concerning this strange name in the n.e. Bronx. I dug out my copy of the McNamara book; he says:
WAKEFIELD: This was the name of a separate village, surveyed in 1855 and incorporated into NYC in 1895. Original bounds were the Bx River on the west, Laconia Ave on the east, and from E215 St up to E233.
Upon annexation in 1895, Wakefield was extended up to E238th, absorbing Jacksonville (separate topic) and later up to E243rd St, absorbing Washingtonville. (another topic).
Nowhere does it mention the act of holding wakes, etc, but one would assume that was dictated by the great Woodlawn Cemetery. The was an in at east 233 and Bx River Rd catering specifically to funeral parties.
It was razed in 1935 to make way for the r.r.station.
Joe C
Sorry for bothering you,
What did it say about Jacksonville and Washingtonville?
I assume it had to do with the presidents?
Not a bother. I did not bring in my book today, "History in Asphalt"; it is somewhat hefty in my briefcase. I didn't need to lug the added weight around today. Perhaps I can bring it tomorrow and fill U in on those to names.
[Wasn't one of the old New York Central (Metro-North) stations known as Wakefield a long time ago?]
Still is.
Wakefield station is still around - it is reached by stairs from the 241st St. bridge that crosses the Bronx River, Bronx River Parkway, and two sets (Harlem and New Haven) of Metro-North tracks.
The Village (?) of Wakefield was one of the municipalities which combined to form the Borough of the Bronx. Its original borders are responsible for the "hump" in the middle of the Bronx/Westchester line (without which 241st St. would be in Westchester).
More recently, there was a Wakefield movie theatre somewhere in the E. 230s on White Plains Rd., but it is gone now. I'm pretty sure there is still a Wakefield Pharmacy though. At any rate, the name is certainly used for the area surrounding 241st St. station.
The post office in that area uses the name Wakefield, too.
--Mark
I know that there is a close connection from the MNRR to the 1/9 at Marble Hill, that saves money rather then take the train all the way to GCT. Is Wakefield the closest MN connection to the Subway on the NH/Harlem Divisions in the Bronx
I believe service there is pretty infrequent.
The Wakefield theater was just north of East 233rd Street, on the east side of the street -- just about where the north end of the IRT platforms are.
Actually, E 241st Street becomes McClean Ave in Yonkers. There is a Wakefield Ave nearby, also in Yonkers, but I don't think it goes into the Bronx.
Andrew :)
I checked the map, it is Wakefield Avenue that 241st Street becomes.
238th Street becomes McLean Avenue.
OH! My mistake :O
:)Andrew
..atleast the 2 doesn't get LOST IN YONKERS.
Wakefield station on the MNRR is within walking distance from the subway station, mayhaps this is the reason for the renaming? It's not exactly new, since the map from Summer '99 hanging on my wall shows it as Wakefield/241.
I have always gone on the assumption that the neighborhood was called Wakefield.
I've always gone on the assumption that suddenly calling the neighborhood Wakefield was a silly pretension, something like renaming Hells' Kitchen Clinton and several similar exercises in vanity in Brooklyn. I live on the Upper West Side, not Morningside Heights or that new neighborhood down the street Manhattan Valley!
Morningside Heights was always called that, the Upper West Side ends at 110th Street.
As for Manhattan Valley, that actually refers to the valley of 125th Street aka Manhattanville. I guess somebody screwed up here. The area used to be called Bloomingdale.
[I have seen on a pocket fold out subway map given out at heypaul's bash that the 241st St/White Plains Rd station has been renamed Wakefield/241st St. I also noticed this at Times Sq on those
enamel signs showing the routes and destinations.]
There seems to be a trend toward using neighborhood names for terminal stations, e.g. 207 Street/Inwood, 95 Street/Bay Ridge, Mott Ave/Far Rockaway.
That's a pleasant reversal for the TA, which a third of a century ago, went out of its way to strip community names from subway maps.
So "Astoria" became "Ditmars Blvd", "95th Street Fort Hamilton" became simply "95th Street Brooklyn" and my personal un-favorite "Canarsie" became "Rockaway Parkway."
How times change.
Using neighborhood or landmark names in station names is great. This solves the problem of conflicting names more elegantly than using the "Avenue of Operation" which would be the same for every station on a line.
At least "95th Street Fort Hamilton" didn't become "95th Street Dan Ryan."
Or 95th St=Watts
That would be 103rd Street = Watts
wayne
WATTS EXTENDS FROM MANCHESTER ON THE NORTH TO IMPERIAL ON THE SOUTH, SO 96TH IS IN WATTS
WATTS EXTENDS FROM MANCHESTER ON THE NORTH TO IMPERIAL ON THE SOUTH, SO 96TH IS IN WATTS cORRECTION firestone ON THE nORTH
[re use of neighborhood names for terminal stations]
[That's a pleasant reversal for the TA, which a third of a century ago, went out of its way to strip community names from subway maps.]
What makes it even better, in a way, is the fact that the TA did this without having had any pressing need to do so. Most people who are heading to a terminal station know where they're going. You're surely not going to see too many tourists on their way to Bay Ridge or Wakefield. So the TA *could* have kept the names off the map and few people would have been inconvenienced. The fact that the TA added the names, in other words, is a nice touch that make the subway seem more like the glue that holds the city together, so to speak.
Now let's go a step further:
"Flatbush—Church Avenue," "Gravesend—Neck Rd.," "Fiske Terrace—Avenue H," "Bedford—Franklin Avenue."
Others?
Gravesend Neck Road is the actual name of the street, I don't see why they don't use it in the station.
I meant specifically the Neck Road station on the F line, which is at the center of the Town Square of Gravesend.
I guess they don't use the full name of "Gravesend Neck Road" on the stations since it's the only "Neck Road" in the area, so there's no confusion. In my "neck" of the woods in western Suffolk, they are three "Neck Roads"--"Little East," "Great East," and "Great." They all go to different places.
I meant specifically the Neck Road station on the F line, which is at the center of the Town Square of Gravesend.
No such station.
{ No such station as Neck Rd. on the F. ]
There was a station at Neck Rd. on the Culver Line in pre-elevation days. And in the 19th C. it was called "Gravesend" Cf. Seyfried, vol. 4.
Just goes to show you how long it's been since I rode the line. :-)
125th Street (Lenox Avenue) - HARLEM!
wayne
Wasn t the old signs for 207 St signed Washington Hts-207 and for the R 95th St-Ft Hamilton???
207th Street isn't even in Washington Heights.
You are right, but the sign used to Say 207th St-Washington Hts. I know it is Inwood
[Wasn t the old signs for 207 St signed Washington Hts-207 and for the R 95th St-Ft Hamilton???]
I believe that was the case with 95th Street. Fort Hamilton, as a neighborhood name, seems to be fading away in the face of Bay Ridge's expansion, using the Fort Hamilton name today would be sort of inaccurate.
Dunno about 207th, but I certainly wouldn't consider the area to be part of Washington Heights.
The latest editions of Le Map show the 207th Street terminal's co-name as Inwood, which is much more accurate than Washington Heights.
The other end of the line depicts the Lefferts Boulevard terminus as being in Ozone Park. This is incorrect; it's in Richmond Hill. Liberty Avenue, above which the 'A' runs, changes from Ozone Park to Richmond Hill at 108th Street. South Ozone Park begins two blocks south of Liberty, at 109th Avenue.
New Lots Avenue has no community co-name. Maybe the TA figures enough people would remember the old, seldom-used neighborhood monicker of New Lots. Frankly, most natives of the area think of it as East New York.
How about "205 Concourse" on all the D trains, pre R68. That was confusing. People would get off at Bedford Pk (200th St) on the Concourse and wander aimlessly to 205th on the Concourse. Nothing they were looking for was there. Still happens even today.
Joe C.
As to Washington HTs 207th St, The line was know as the Eight Ave-Washington Hts Exp in its early days. just like the D was the 6th Ave-Concourse. Probably the Wash Hts, showed near where it ended. Lots of areas back in the pre and early post war days changed names. When i was a kid, we lived on Kings Hwy and Bedford, We used to say we lived in Flatbush, it should have been named Midwood, now if you look at the Book Neighborhoods of Brooklyn it is called Madison Park or Kingsway, they keep changing
In 1974 my family moved to East 35th St & Kings Highway. The neighborhood is either called "Marine Park/Mill Basin" (though it's not near either, although it is closer to Marine Park) or Midwood (which is really a few blocks west of that location) or Flatlands (which is really a few blocks east of that location).
--Mark
Methinks the first designation meant the route: Concourse Line, Fulton Line, etc. I always wondered about 205 St.: Perry Ave would be more like it. Fulton-East NY, yes. Fulton Euclid, actoally on Pitkin; Lefferts on Liberty; so I'll rest that "Fulton, Concourse, Wash. Hts." were the lines.
YOU ARE PROBABLYRIGHT
I would say that 179th Street/Hillside Ave station is more in Jamaica Estates than true Jamaica. Jamaica is really where the E/J/Z go.
No way is 207th Street in Washington Heights, unless that name gets applied to all of Upper Manhattan.
207 is Inwood and is shown as 207 Inwood on the Map.
We are talking about old R1-10 Signs on the Trains, back the days in 30-early 60s. My Grand Parents and Uncle, used of live just 2 blocks South of Dykman St off Broadway. When people asked where that was if we said Inwood, they did not know, if we said Washington Hts, then they knew.
The old IND destination signs generally showed the line and the last stop, e.g., 205th St. Concourse, 207th St. Washington Heights. I think it also showed Church St. Brooklyn and Lefferts Blvd. Fulton St., but I'm a bit shaky on these last two. It was only recently that the MTA decided the maps should show the last stop and the neighborhood in which it is located, and so we come up with the (I still think) pretentious 241st St. Wakefield, which used to be 241st St. White Plains Rd.
Hey, sorry I couldn't attend. Well anyway, I have finally figured out a few ways to tell the difference between the 2 cars. This is without using the unit numbers. These are very noticable. Around the storm door is a metal frame. The R142 has it cut into 2 pieces. The R142A has it all in one piece. Check it out here...
R142
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142-6310a.jpg
R142A
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-7211b.jpg
The interior of the cars features grab bars that are cut in 2 places. The first part funs from the bottom of the seat to a vertical bar. The second part runs from the vertical metal bar to the cieling. The upper portion of the bars are different on the cars. The R142 has the bottom pointing toward the outside of the car. The R142A has them pointing toward the center of the car. Check it out...
R142
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/tech/r142-testing.jpg
R142A
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-int-03.jpg
That's all I have for now. I think there may be a difference in the window frames including the cab. The pictures on the site aren't close enough to verify. When I get a chance to ride the R142 I'll know for sure. Many may have noticed that when the R142s were delivered they had a rubber frame around the storm door window. This has changed. The R142s and R142As both have metal frames now.
Mr. Pirmann, the following picture is incorrectly named and labeled...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-ppw01.jpg
The storm door window frame is rubber. That was never on the R142As (as listed) The storm door frame is cut in 2 indicating a Bombardier R142. Congrats on the 5th year of the site. Thanks for it all.
Now... if I can figure out the difference between the R62s and R62As.
That's the...
running on...
's
requests and dediactions.
Aha! Finally, a reason to answer the question on everyone's mind:
Now... if I can figure out the difference between the R62s and R62As.
There are a few subtle differences, not counting the builder's plates and the car numbers. I assume you're already familiar with which cars are assigned to which routes, also.
The "saddles" at each door are different, R62s have a "bumpy" pattern (which is probably better for traction) and R62As have a series of perpendicular lines.
The rings surrounding the fault lights are small on R62s and large on R62As.
The speaker grille patterns are different, those on the R62s have a more linear pattern, those on R62As have a more circular pattern. (This one is difficult to explain, but you'll see what I mean if you examine both types.)
To aid sight-impaired subway buffs in identifying a car's type, the door chimes are slightly different (not counting broken door chimes, of course, although there is an R62A with a very unhealthy chime).
R62s are less likely to break down.
The air conditioning is colder on R62As.
Mark
And the air conditioning also has a distinct smell on the 62A's while it had almost no smell on the 62's. Its faded somewhat after 15 years, but is still there.
External PA on R62.
I posted a comprehensive list of every little detail a short while ago (about 15 total), but its not in the archives yet and is off the main board, so I can't link to it.
Everything you found is something I missed.
Okay, does anybody know the yards the 3 shuttles come from? I know 1 comes from Westchester Yard. Thanks.
That's the...
running on...
's
plea for an answer.
The 42nd Street is from Linovia and/or Lenox. I think the Franklin is from CI and I'm not sure about the Rockways.
The Rockaway Shuttle is out of Pitkin
No, actually, I meant, what yards are the 3 Shuttle Trains on the 42 Street Shuttle assigned to. There are 3 trains that plow the 42 Street shuttle. I know atleast 1 is from Westchester Yard. Just the color of the stickers on them will do. Thanks.
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections and continuing plea for help.
The R62A'S on the Grand Central Shuttle all come from Livonia Yard from the No.3 Line. Westchester Yard no longer controls the Shuttle. However Westchester did give Livonia Yard Cars 1896-1915. They may still have a Yellow sticker but will get the Blue sticker on it. Also I did see cars 1886-1890 over on Lenox as a Link bar.
Also, it should be remembered that subway cars are assigned to maintenance shops, not yards. Lenox Yard no longer has a shop (it once had the main shop of the IRT, 147th Street).
David
Normally, the Shuttle is one train broken down to the one 4-car and two 3-car consists you see on the Shuttle.
Over the last 3-4 years, I've come to really enjoy the time I spend here. I've enjoyed sharing and even learning a few things. I have at times been critical of posts that I disagreed with and have been argumentative when I felt it was warranted. I have met a few of you and have enjoyed those encounters, too. Over the past few months i have found heypauls attempts at humor, annoying to say the least. I found those who have jumped onto his moronic bandwagon and perpetuating the threads ad-nauseum equally annoying. I have even been subject to private e-mail attacks.
I still think that heypaul and his gang are not funny. I will not change that view. However, I have tried to back away and ignore it and return to normal dialog. They say never try to teach a pig to play tennis. It annoys the pig and wastes your time. Apparently, this is the case with dougie as little dougie wants to keep this going and I don't.
To make a long story short, the negatives here have begun to outweigh the positives and I've decided to vote myself off the island. To most of you, I say it's been fun. To paul, & dougie and the rest of the chorus, you win.
The quote is:
"Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it's a waste of time and it annoys the pig."
And Subtalk L*O*S*E*S Steve, Please reconsider. Subtalk is a diverse community, some members are interested in technical matters, some have an offbeat sense of humor,still others are historians -- the one common characteristic is that we are all fascinated by some aspect(s) of the NYC Subway. BTW, heypaul and the rest probably don't feel like winners in light of your decision, they are most likely saddened because this great community called Subtalk has been diminshed by the loss of one of it's greatest contributors.
There are a lot of very thoughtful comments here, John's is one of them. I hope you have read them all.
BTW, I didn't respond to you Sat. 14:38 post at heypaul's because I wanted to take the time to print it off and give it serious consideration before responding ... I'm glad I did.
P.S. They say nothing last forever, so maybe you've got all the enjoyment out of this site that it has to give you, so stay if you can & go if you must, but know that I too will miss your posts.
Mr t__:^)
Jeez, use your killfile and make heypaul, Doug and Pigs disappear. If you're gonna leave because of that, then don't let the door hit your butt on the way out.
Thin skinned....way to thin.
Hey, he never mentioned me as "the rest of the chorus." I've never taken either side in this humor business and I don't care.
I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being light on the technical details. But I enjoy the humor as long as it doesn't turn mean or stupid. Some of us (myself included) have an offbeat sense of humor.
American Movie Classics features The Three Stooges along with their classics. I enjoy the Stooges. If I didn't, should I tune out everything on AMC as well?
One of the things I've always liked about railfanning is its inclusiveness. I've been in it for almost half a century now, and I've seen it filled with people of every race, class, intellectual status and any other demographic you can think of, and that in eras when people in general were a lot more close-minded than today.
To each his, her, or its own.
[Over the past few months i have found heypauls attempts at humor, annoying to say the least. I found those who have jumped onto his moronic bandwagon and perpetuating the threads ad-nauseum equally annoying.]
If you don't like heypaul's stuff, just do as I did with Salaamallah and killfile him.
[To make a long story short, the negatives here have begun to outweigh the positives and I've decided to vote myself off the island. To most of you, I say it's been fun. To paul, & dougie and the rest of the chorus, you win.]
Steve, what have I said or done that is SO horrid or uncompromising that you have to 'throw in the towel'?
I appreciate your contributions to SubTalk in terms of your sharing your knowledge of the system from an 'insiders standpoint' with the rest of us.
Yes, I'll admit I engage in to much 'horseplay' and nonesensical banter from time to time.
I will promise to you (and my fellow SubTalkers) to cut out and/or reduce this as much as possible. Every now and then a little 'light subject matter' is appreciated as many a topic does get dragged out and repetitive to the point of it becoming irrelevant.
But you have to realize that alot of us SubTalkers have met in person, have become friends and are relaxed enough to enjoy some 'peanut gallery' shenanigans (sp?) among ourselves. I am sorry if alot of our horseplay detracts from some of our fellow SubTalkers more serious discussions. I for one will 'reel myself in' should I see my postings 'getting out of hand'.
Doug aka BMTman
Dude;
If you are posting your farewell to see if you have been appreciated in the past (like a potential jumper with one foot over the rail of a bridge), rest assured that your posts on the board were greatly appreciated by those of us who want to know what is going on in the TA and are mature enough to recognize that it is legitimate to have viewpoints which do not exactly match our own.
If in fact, you do choose to no longer participate in Subtalk, we will all be the losers, there will be no winner, including yourself. Give it some thought. Do not cut off your nose to spite your face. Why not just lurk in the background for a while, and when some interesting (to you) topic comes up, jump back in. If you feel you are taking too much heat from the geek chorus, change your handle. Your knowledge of the system will show through regardless of the handle you use.
There are already too many stupid threads on the board in the vein of "Why do they always put the roofs on the top of the cars?" posted by those who want to post something rather than those with a serious interest in the subways, and even serious threads are inflated with responses that say no more than "I agree" or "I think so also", or "You used the British spelling of a word". The loss a serious Subtalker diminishes the value of the board to all of us who want more than just a way to waste some time without spending money.
Tom
And what is wrong with British Spelling? :)
Absolutely naught.
:o) wayne
I do believe that this is exactly what people are complaining about. Way to disprove a point.
-Hank
I don't get it.
Naught doesn't mean not and both words exist in both versions of the language anyway. Complaining about his spelling would not be complaining about using British spelling but about something completely different.
My wife would say that your attitude here is just like the third graders she used to teach.
Take the advice of several others in this thread. Make use of the Killfile for the ones that get under your skin the most.
Your departure from the SubTalk community deprives all of us of a different viewpoint than we usually enconter, from a source that, at least for me, has always been the "Voice of Truth".
You tell it like it is, and I think everyone here appreciates it.
Think about this: If you leave, the ones that bug you win. Don't give 'em that victory.
I just HATE it when stuff like this happens.
wayne
Well my 2 cents worth. Considering you've shared a lot of knowledge I hate to see you go. There are some people out there that I like, but yes sometimes the bull gets too deep and wastes web site. I appreciate Doug's explanation. In my own case I've jumped in on political things and rattled on and then wished later I hadn't as I felt guilty for using a rail site to spout my views. And there have been several offenders in several areas. Maybe we should all stick to the topic and keep the peace. But, whatever you wish. I have no disputes with any party concerned; pass it over if you don't want to read it. Peace; big ed
Train Dude ....
I'm upset to see you go. There are a number of people who's posts are very meaningful, and yours is one of them. I appreciate getting views from individuals who have "the inside story" at NYC Transit, and I'll miss that perspective. Clearly you are very knowledgeable on that in which you post. I hope you'll reconsider and resort to the use of the "killfile" for those posts you don't want to see.
--Mark
I will miss your excellent insights and techo knowlege into the TA.
Man's gotta do what a Man's gotta do.
(I hope this does not effect MDF on the D line)
I know that I must be part of your chorous, but I don't feel I have won beause I didn't know I was playing the game. I feel that this site would be pretty boring if it only had technical data that interested a small fraction of the talkers instead of a mix of humour that can make all the talkers laugh (or scratch their heads.) I would be interested so see you post something that you do consider funny.
However I can't help thinking that the rod up your butt must have a rod up its butt.
I have not contributed to this thread thus far for a number of reasons, some of which are:
I don't know the people involved
Nobody cares to hear my opinion on the subject
There are enough off-topic posts without another from me
Et al.
Until Mon Aug 7 13:34:40 2000, all the posts were tasteful, and IMHO, all the posts were respectful except one, and I felt that one was neutral, not disrespectful. Then came Jersey Mike's coprophagous post.
Hey Mike: It's posts like this that make you APPEAR to be a flaming rectal orifice.
To other SubTalkers: I spent 9 hours with Jersey Mike (and also Chuck Greene and Bill Steil) subfanning in Philly on Saturday. I found Mike in person to be very knowledgeable with respect to rail and transit subjects, full of interesting stories (virtually nonstop) about trains and transit, and a lot of fun to be with.
Please pardon me for adding some more drek to this generally terrific message board and website.
Bob Vogel
Well if it makes it any bettre I got that comment from a Simpsons episode when Superintendant Chalmers described Skiner's inability to have any fun what-so-ever. I was hoping that more people would recogize my plageristic comment, remember the appropiate episode and note the connection of Train Dude to principle Skinner. I have a mental disorder in that I constantly need to use Simpsons expressions in daily life and Train Dude's ongoing reaction to humour proved too great a temptation. I realize that in a non-Sipson's litterate world my comment sounds more offensive than it really is, but I still stand by my position that Train Dude APPEARS TO BE INCAPABLE OF HAVING ANY FUN. Over the last month or so he have behaved like a complete jerk, insulting and being rude to those who seek only to bring enjoyment to others. If he'wants to storm off in a huff (which now appears to be a act) and in the process making everyone else feel sorta bad, then I get to to make a little dig about how rigid and serious he is. However, I appoligize for any offense taken that was above the level of offence intended (a mild zing).
Simpsons literacy is an oxyMORON, The Simpsons is where the Bullwinkle movie screen writers got the idea for VBTV -- KEEL THEIR BRAINS, BORIS
So you never saw the episode where they went to NYC? It was so funny.
"Dear motorist,
Your car is illegally parked at 1 World Trade Plaza. If you do not remedy this malparkage within 24 hours your car will be thrown into the East River at your expense."
No pizza, only Khar-Khalash!
oooohhhh, Flushing Meadows.
You have reached the NYC automated parking hotline. To enter a plea of not guilty please press 1 now. ::beep:: Your plea has been rejected, you will be assesed the full amount of the fine plus a small large lateness penalty. Please wait by your car between 9 and 5 for parking officer Steve Grabouski.
Talk about your pot-and-kettle...
-Hank
Hey, before this train Dude thing the only dig I had ever taken at a subtalker was that Subway Crash guy and maybe that SUV driving John guy from long Island.
I forget to check SubTalk for one day, and this is what I see when I return? I cannot believe that someone like you (going by my impression of you from posts alone) could let a little bad humor get under your skin like that. Then again, sometimes one little annoyance that is constantly present can drive anyone to drastic measures.
Does anyone have pictures or images of the station when it had 8 tracks. It's one thing to read how the station was before, but I would like to see a picture so I can visualize it.
Here's a picture fron 1964, showing the tracks coming from Manhattan into the upper level. As you can see, the 2nd Ave. el tracks coming off the Queensboro bridge still existed then, and you can also see where the BMT "swings" over to the southern platform the el train would have used pre 1942. The BMT tracks would have fed the now gone northern half. I believe this portion was still standing at the time of theis picture:
Thanks =)
I can't remember the BMT norther section of the QP station being there by the time the new World's Fair trains (shown here in the colors they belong in) arrived in 1964, though admittedly, I didn;t remember the disconnected tracks headed up to the Queensboro, either.
According to this website, the northern half was demolished in 1964. It's possible that the structre could have existed in some part with the new R36 cars running. The yellow caution flags on the BMT track indicate a work condition existing. Perhaps the demolition was happening at the same time this photo was shot. I NEVER saw any tracks remaining on the structure leading up to the Queensboro Bridge, so I assume they were removed when the northern platform was destroyed.
The north half of Queensboro Plaza was torn down as part of the sprucing up of the No. 7 line in preparation for the 1964 World's Fair. As I recall, by the time the "Bluebirds" (R33 and R36 WF cars) started arriving, the demolition was nearly complete.
-- Ed Sachs
That picture was dated in June of 1964, so I guess the northern platform demolition was just completed by that time. I wonder how long that abandoned trackage from the old 2nd Ave. el remained there, though. Kinda reminds me of the severed connection with the Myrtle Ave el just south of Broadway. Those severed tracks remained there until just a couple of years ago.
The short amount of abandoned trackage seen in the picture remained until the Queensboro Br was rehabbed in the late '80s.
--Mark
It definatley was NOT there in 1985. I would have taken notice of it.
Well, OK ... then whenever the bridge rehab started, maybe the early '80s.
--Mark
64 or slightly earlier would be about right. My mom worked at the Unemployment Office on the north side of the Plaza directly opposite the station.. I thought that the renovation was when I was in HS 64-67 since I remeber getting off the train and walking across the current open air overpass into the building. On occasions I would get a haircut from the barbers in the building and then use my train pass to continue home. The demo may have been just before 64. Unfortunately, mom is now in a nursing home, hearing is lousy and she is in the early stages of dementia so she wouldn't be of any help to clear up the mystery.
Can I just say: You guys are good!
:)Andrew
I rode the Flushing line to and from the World's Fair a number of times, starting in the spring of 1964. I remember noticing that, at Queensboro Plaza (lower level), the south side of the station had the old IRT style windscreen with the multiple windows, while the north side had a solid wall of reinforced glass - at the time, I didn't understand why. I guess it had recently been installed, but it was there from the first time I rode the line, which I think was April or May. Anyone know the dates that the World's Fair was open in 1964? I suspect the demolition of the north side of Queensboro Plaza was complete by opening day.
The fair opened on April 22, 1964. We had free passes and drove out there in my aunt an uncle's car, after which we couldn't find the damned thing in the new Shea Stadium parking lot for about half an hour. After that little disaster, it was the No. 7 train to the fair from then on.
Al;
The north portion of the Queensboro Plaza station was a mirror image of the south platforms which exist today. You could look across the platforms from one side to the other on both the upper and lower platforms. When it was built, it was built as one station even though the north half was exclusively BMT and the south half was exclusively IRT. There were no structural differences.
I do not remember seeing the station since they tore down the north half. Did they enclose the bottom tracks on the north side the same way they enclosed the bottom tracks on the south side of the south platform? Did they use the actual north wall of the original station?
Tom
There is a cement wall on the northern edge of the remaining (south) platform. Was there a cement divider when the north half was still there? There are also several glass "windows" in this wall.
>>> There is a cement wall on the northern edge of the remaining (south) platform. Was there a cement divider when the north half was still there? <<<
Chris;
Are you sure the north wall is cement and not some light weight material similar to the windscreen on the south side? I just ran Salaam's #7 Line video, and it certainly looks like a light windscreen rather than cement.
There was definitely no cement divider between the north and south platforms. Since this was an elevated station, a cement wall in the center would be impractical. The added weight of cement would be greater than structural steel.
My memory was that it was completely open, but it is probable that there were some vertical supporting girders between the center tracks on the lower level. After reviewing Salaam's tape, I see that there are vertical structural supports in the outer wall on the south side of the lower platform, spaced at the same distance as the vertical supports on the platforms. My guess is that there were also similar vertical supports between the two center tracks.
Tom
There is such a picture in a book called Old Queens, N.Y. in Early Photographs, by Vincent F. Seyfried and William Asadorian, on page 47. The view is from the NE corner looking towards the bridge. You can see the structure of the now-demolished north side, which does indeed look exactly like the south side. Unfortunately, you are on the wrong side to see the track configuration coming off the bridge. You can make out the track configuration as the line enters the borough, however. I would post it, but the book's copyrighted (1991), of course.
Page 45 has pix of the plaza before the Subway/El station was built, and boy did it look nice. You can even see some of the still-standing buildings as they looked in 1911 and 1912, one of which had a beautiful carillon, now lost. BTW, trolley buffs will find this book chock full of streetcar pix.
I got mine at Barnes & Noble in the city, but you can also get it here, at Amazon.com.
Here's an older one. The BMT north platform (now gone) is shown here, with a Triplex train arriving on the Manhattan-bound track. The surviving southern platform is also shown. The track with the worker walking on it is the present day trackway for the Astoria-bound N line. It used to be the track for arriving 2nd. Ave. el trains coming off the Queensboro bridge. Judging by the layers of rust on the rails of this track, showing it hasn't been used in recent times when this pic was shot, I'd date this picture after 1942, but before 1949:
>>> The BMT north platform (now gone) is shown here, with a Triplex train arriving on the Manhattan-bound track.
Chris;
When you look closely at the lower right portion of the picture it looks like the south platform is in the process of being shaved to allow the wider BMT cars. When the BMT wide cars terminated at Queensboro Plaza, they were using standards. My guess is that this picture was taken in 1949 after the Astoria line platforms were widened and just before the north side of the station was closed completely. Since the upper platform is usually for Queens bound trains this could be the tail end of an Astoria bound train.
BTW the clock tower in the background is no longer there. Does anyone know when it was torn down? That could help date the picture.
Tom
BTW the clock tower in the background is no longer there. Does anyone know when it was torn down? That could help date the picture.
Not only when, but why?!
When you look closely at the lower right portion of the picture it looks like the south platform is in the process of being shaved to allow the wider BMT cars. When the BMT wide cars terminated at Queensboro Plaza, they were using standards. My guess is that this picture was taken in 1949 after the Astoria line platforms were widened and just before the north side of the station was closed completely. Since the upper platform is usually for Queens bound trains this could be the tail end of an Astoria bound train.
Possible. But the Triplexes were used on the Brighton Local (as in picture) during the late 40s until about 1951 or so. So this may be a photo of a train heading for the layup track along Queens Blvd. to reverse. The south tracks on the N. platform were used for the BMT subway trains terminating there, with the trains arriving on the upper level, going out to the layup track, and departing from the lower level. The north tracks were used for the Astoria and Flushing shuttle trains.
Does anyone know if through service to Astoria ever operated via the north platform briefly in 1949? I always thought that on the day the through service started, the north platforms were abandoned.
-- Ed Sachs
08/08/2000
Looking at the pic it does look like the platforms on the right have been shaved back to accommodate BMT width cars. Also the protection board looks new. If this was the trackway for the 2nd Ave "el", didn't that line have exposed third rail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes indeed, so did the original BMT els. The Manhattan els had a sort of protection board outboard side of the 3rd rail but essentially it was still uncovered. If the platforms were shaved back perhaps 3rd rail was modified by then too?
Yes indeed, so did the original BMT els. The Manhattan els had a sort of protection board outboard side of the 3rd rail but essentially it was still uncovered. If the platforms were shaved back perhaps 3rd rail was modified by then too?
>>> If this was the trackway for the 2nd Ave "el" <<<
Bill;
I had posted in a previous thread that my recollection of the time between 1946-48 while the BMT was running Q-type cars to Flushing and Astoria, the north side of the south platform was used by the Q-type cars, and the upper north platform was closed.
If my recollection is correct, any change to the third rail would have occurred when the Q-types were put on that track.
It is speculation on my part, but I think they temporarily reopened the upper north platform after the end of the Q-type BMT service and the beginning of the direct through service to Astoria possibly because of track connections. The other possibility is that my memory is faulty, and they did not use the 2nd Ave. tracks until they completely closed the north platforms which was October, 1949 (according to information on this site).
A little further detective work shows that the time of the photo was 12:25 P.M. if the clock in the tower is working correctly, but there are relatively long shadows. This means the picture must have been taken in late fall or winter. This supports my earlier speculation that this photo was just before the north platform was closed.
An interesting aside when looking at the photo is the station lighting. The string of incandescent light along the edge of the platform, compared to the flourescent lighting in use today.
Tom
Dating this picture to the last days of northern platform service makes sense. That would create a reason for someone to photograph trains on the northern platform, with it's days numbered. Kinda like the flood of redbird pics we've seen lately.
i wanna know if i want to go to ,41st Ave,Long Island City, can i get off at Queen plaza ?
help!!!!!!!
That depends. Where to you want to go... up to what street. The B/Q/S stops at 21 Street and 41 Avenue.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
How often does a day go by when service goes exactly according to The Map?
There are no days that have no General Orders. Some don't affect service, but many do. During the rush hours, General Orders usually aren't in effect (except for very long-term stuff, like closure of the "H" tracks on the Manhattan Bridge); all other times are fair game.
David
Either a Motorman for the NYCsubway, or an LE for any RR
I've been both and enjoyed both NYCT and MRL. Check out the Dakota, Minnesota and Eastern, based at Brookings, SD I believe [?] I hear they're looking for help with a new coal line they're adding. This may be an apocryphal tale but you might look into it.
I have just had a look at the new R142 pictures posted by David Pirmann and taken on 27th July. One of them is an internal view looking towards the front. It shows what appears to be a railfan window with good views ahead. Are we to be reprieved, or is it a bit of carefull picture editing by David just to make me feel better ahead of Subway Tour No7 in November.
Simon
Swindon UK
The door to the cab is covered by a special film (to reflect glare from behind etc). You can see out the front window but the images might be slightly distorted because of the nature the the film covering. You cannot see the T/O (agian because of this special film).
It's polarized glass film, like that on the R68a's.
wayne
I notice a new track being place on the Rockaway Line between Howard Beach-JFK Station and Broad Channel Station - actually on Broad Channel just after the north access bridge. What gives with that?
Is this for layup of trains, or will there be an increase in traffic to the Rockaways?
I believe its the test track for the R-143. I guess the MTA, rather than use existing good track (Sea Beach), has decided to build new ones. Maybe they need to in this case to test CBTC and the Sea Beach has already been resignalled with normal ones (and is used for GOs).
Today's Daily News (Sunday 8/6/00, Lifelines section) has a nice article on subway art, with photos of some of the more interesting installations and a "self-guided tour."
I was thinking of going down to washington D.C. next week to ride the metro. From what I heard, they do around 80 in certain areas of the system. What lines or stratches are these. I would be fun going that fast on the subways.
Well, the land speed record for Metro is 79 but that was before they had problems with their automatic system. Now, the top speed is rarely above 70. For the record, here are some of the fastest stretches:
Red Line: between Dupont Cir. and Woodley Park
Red Line: between Medical Center and Grosvenor
Red Line: between Brookland and Fort Totten
Yellow Line: between Natl Airport and Braddock Road (Blue line too)
Green Line: between Fort Totten and West Hyattsville
Blue Line: between Stadium-Armory and Benning Road - also
between Natl Airport and Braddock Road, also
between Springfield-Franconia and Van Dorn Street
Orange Line: between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom (also Blue Line)
Enjoy your trip on the Metro!
wayne
My record was 77 (in manual) just south of Grosvenor. Places where the trains can go 75 MPH is north of Friendship Heights and between Union Station and Silver Spring on Red, Franconia-Springfield to National Airport (except between King Street and Braddock Road), Rosslyn to Foggy Bottom, and Stadium-Armory to Benning Road on Blue, Vienna/Fairfax-GMU to Ballston-MU, Rosslyn to Foggy Bottom, and Stadium-Armory to Minnesota Avenue on Orange, Braddock Road to National Airport on blue (but Pentagon to L'Enfant Plaza is a nice run but slow), and the green line has some fast spots north of Fort Totten.
Happy railfanning!
Hi Folks, I know this is a rather late time today to post this but 2 old LIRR Coaches, car # s 2924 & 2933 are now at the RRMLI. in Riverhead. If anyone plans to go out there be sure to get some good photos I plan to visit there someday. Hopefully before October. Regards, Tom.
Hey, Tom, don't worry Thurston, Lou (from Brooklyn) and myself saw those 2900 units sitting at the Riverhead Museum leads a couple of weeks ago when we were returning from our Seashore Trolley Museum trip/weekend vacation.
I think Lou has some shot of them -- I'll have to check with him tomorrow morning.
(PS I got your e-mail. I'll give you details on things shortly).
Doug aka BMTman
Also if you go the RMLI web site there a link to the engin 35 site which has photos of most of the equip. at Riverhead & Greenport.
And note that the TrainLand show on public TV now has a 8 PM Fri slot to add to their Thur. 4 PM & Sat 4:30 slots (at least on #71 on LI). Sometimes their show re-runs for more then a month, looks like I missed their NY&Atl film down the Bay Ridge.
Mr t__:^)
When a southbound D train pulls into Bedford Pk. Blvd. (the second station on the line), the T/O will generally "dump" the train, and the train will then sit there for a minute or two before proceeding - perhaps with a different crew than the one that brought it from 205th St. What is the reason for this? Bedford Pk. is not a terminal for the D, so why is it treated like one?
Bedford Park, for all intents and purposes is the 'terminal' for the "D". Do not know the exact reason, although I believe it has something to do with the fact that the line was intended to go further than 205th St. and the location of Concourse Yard. A number of years ago they tried changing crews on the uptown side for a while, it was an absolute disaster. I imagine the person responsible for that decision is now a CTA.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't this similar to Chambers St (1/2/3/9), where the train waits for a while at South Ferry but there's no crew change until Chambers St? (It's been a while so I may be wrong here ....)
--Mark
I've never seen a crew change at SF or Chambers. This is the usual sequence:
Chambers St. Downtown: Holding Lights until 1 or 2 express connections are made.
South Ferry: Holding Lights for anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes, I also noticed that 5 trains rarely turn if there is no 1/9 held in the station.
Chambers St Uptown: Departure lights and bell, come on after approx. 2 minute wait.
At no point do I see a crew change. They probably do have them, during off hours.
I've worked the Broadway local, 25 or so years ago, and crews were never changed en route. Out of Van Cortlandt it was 3 trips around the ferry,to and from 242 St. (on most runs) I assume this practice has never changed, no reason for it.
Thats true nothing has changed exept that your call letters are from Chambers instead of South Ferry.
Last week I though I saw a Q train on the Broadway line on more than one day at about the same time. Does anyone know if there is now a scheduled Q on the Broadway line. If so, what is the schedule, especially when it's supposed to arrive at the World Trade Center (Cortland Street) station.
Read down a few threads until you find one about the BROADWAY EXPRESS (it's in all caps :)
-Dave
There were 4, approx ever 15 mins starting wuth the 4:48 from Queensbridge. I don't think they're running them anymore, because they're back to the weekday shuttles.
The second is 1705. They are the four pullouts from the tunnel extension layups.
Hello, there. Does anyone know whether the Myrtle Ave. switching project is completed? The shuttles were already suspended 8/5-8/7. Will there be shuttle service for the next two weekends?
Normal service has returned. I believe the project is complete or finished far enough to not require the weekend GO's.
Last night I took out my SEPTA Regional Rail timetables and my TI-83 calculator and figured out the average speed for all the Regional Rail lines from the orgin to the 1st centre city station. Well some routes like the R7 to Trenton and the R2 to Newark had quite respectable times around 40mph start to stop. The R5 was hovering about 35 mph. Express trains were 2-5 mph better. However some routes were just alway. The R@ warminster and R8 and R7 Chesnut Hill east all had average speeds between 22 and 25 mph. How does a 22 mpg average speed compare with a trip via car. As John K Commuter I would think that in normal rush hour traffic I could beat 22 mph. Does anyone have statictis for average commute speed in a car? How does Metro North, NJT or the LIAR compare? I am computing average speed correctly?
"SEPTA: We're getting there. Eventually"
Years ago SEPTA had a race with Thacher Longstreth (a very popular city councilman) taking the Reading-Philly train from Port Kennedy racing a car that went straight in the Schuylkill Expressway during morning rush hour. The train was late. The car won.
There are many variables with driving, of course. One overturned tractor trailer can add 3 hours to the commute on I95 or the Blue Route/Sure-kill Expressway.
I was at Mineola today with my Mom, and we left just as the Oyster Bay train was leaving. As we passed Roslyn, it appeared the train had not
come yet, and the gates were just coming down.
I've even beaten OB trains on the N23 bus to Mineola!!
Those trains are so freakin SLOW!!
The denver post just did a light rail/car/bike/bus race from downtown to a point along the newly opened light rail route. The light rail came in first, with the others following in the order I listed. Nice to see good publicity!
"How does a 22 mpg average speed compare with a trip via car. As John K Commuter I would think that in normal rush hour traffic I could beat 22 mph."
I think you're underestimating the effect of rush hour. :^) Seriously, while you may be right that in most cities outside New York City, traffic goes faster than 22mph outside rush-hour,
1) Average speed (distance divided by time) includes time spent at dead stop at red lights and stop signs, just as train average speed includes time spent at dead stop at stations and red signals.
2) Rush hour traffic can truly be a parking lot, and the limited-access roads (freeways/expressways/parkways) in some cities are getting that way more and more outside of rush-hours. I was stop-and-go on the Kennedy Expressway yesterday, a Sunday, about 7pm.
And speaking of parking lots, that's the other factor in commuters choosing trains over driving even when they have a car. Even if I could drive into downtown Chicago faster than I could drive -- which is impossible during the week but usually true on weekends -- I don't because the parking rates would gag a Rockefeller. Even on the weekend, it's not cheap. (Free parking on weekends? That's when parts of downtown Chicago are at their busiest! No way will they NOT charge for parking on weekends.) I only drive downtown (1) on weekends AND (2) if I'm NOT going to be parking, only picking up or dropping off someone or something.
The reason why SEPTA's regional rail is slow is because SEPTA forgot to lift the speed restrictions after Railworks and rail replacement on branch lines. I take the R2 to Wilmington every Saturday to play The Powerball (I have a TransPass, so all the trip cost me is a dollar, so I'm not a compulsive gambler), and the train starts flying at maybe 90 mph once the train switches tracks beyond Claymont.
SEPTA is slow because it has a lot of stops and a lot of trains on realtively few tracks. Plus it hasn't upgraded for speed on the Reading Main despite rebuilding it.
Nevertheless ... I used to live in Mt. Airy, along the R8. The train was carded at about 25 minutes to Suburban Station and driving time was regularly 20 to 30 minutes, non-rush hour. From the northern suburbs driving is much worse because not only is there no freeway, but all the roads go SE-NW and NE-SW, making driving 40% longer when heading into the city. The fastest routes you mention are on Amtraks NEC and coincidentally are parallel to the major expressways.
Andrew Byler
DVARP has been making noise about this forever. They say - and I mostly agree - that septa has too many stations, many with ultra low ridership, and this is the big factor in slowing them down compared to other commuter systems. I think the lack of emphasis on these things does not help- doesn't seem like SEPTA really cares about speed.
If they had any money, they should build new and exciting stations with parking (and maybe hi level platforms) and use that as an excuse to close down lightly used stations - i.e. close down two dilapidated stations and open one new station in between. Who would want to get on the train at some of those "stations" on the trenton line?
Hey! I ride from Tacony all the time when visiting my dad in Jersey from my apartment in NYC.
SEPTA is nice in many ways because the many stations make it convenient to walk to them, rather than have to drive.
Most of the worst offenders though, have been closed and many others turned into flag stops. The list of the recently fallen, such as Tioga, Nicetown, Fulmor, Fellwick, Shawmont, Mogees, Westmoreland, Frankford, Frankford Jct., Andalusia, Fern Rock (the old one), Olney, Logan, etc. is long. And this is just recent years, it doesn't inlcude all the stops closed around 1980 from the recession and desindustrialization of the region; do you remember Trainer, Ivy Rock, Naamans, Edge Moor, 52nd St., Spring Garden, and others (there are more!)???
I often ask people who bring this up, what other stops they want to close.
Andrew Byler
There is a push to re-open 52nd St due to the heavy reverse commute from West Phila to Main Line employment areas. One of the major purposes of 52nd St in days gone by was for servants/domestics who lived in West Phila to reach the mansions of the Main Line where they toiled. History repeats itself, in a fashion?
Many of the peak SEPTA trains skip up to 5 stations on any given line. Some designated express trains skip up to 10 stations. I calculated average speed for loacls as well as express trains and the difference was only about 2-5 mph better.
on the R7 most trains use Eddington, Bridesburg, and Wissinoming as either flag stops or dont stop at all.
Andalusia was closed due to low ridership. The two Frankford stations were closed for safety concerns. (SOURCE: SEPTA.)
tonight at 8 on channel 13, david hartman and historian barry lewis will be hosting a documentary called " a walk around brooklyn"... it will be 3 hours long... i don't know if the program will be interrrupted with fund raising, or it will be a full 3 hours on brooklyn... there are no segments on my motorman's compartment, because at the time of their filming it was being used as a setting for an upcoming episode of the outer limits...
the program will be reaired on 3 separate days this week... wed, thurs, and friday at varying times... check your newspapers, tv guide, or the f.b.i. for exact times...
To add to this thread, I should have mentioned at heypaul's SubTalk gathering that this show was coming up since just two days earlier here at Borough Hall, David Hartman and the producers of "A Walk Through Brooklyn" had a gala kick-off celebration (with food catered by Gage and Tollner restaurant) that featured a large-projection screening of the first segment in the Courtroom.
I should also have brought a bunch of advertisement postcards to Paul's place for distribution on this PBS special.
BTW, word is out that a second or third series on Brooklyn will be made due to the large amount of historical info and interesting neighborhoods that could not be fitted into this installment.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>BTW, word is out that a second or third series on Brooklyn will be made due to the
large amount of historical info and interesting neighborhoods that could not be fitted
into this installment. <<<
I really think those guys could use the assistance of ...
www.forgotten-ny.com
on any further segments. I emailed Barry Lewis once, but he didn't get back. However, I do know Lee Rosenzweig, whose books with Brian Merlis were referenced on the credits, so maybe I can get in that way.
Kevin, good luck to you. I was surprised that more of Merlis' photos weren't used.
BTW, they pretty-much "forgot" (sorry for the shameless plug) to cover south-eastern Brooklyn. Notice there was no mention of East New York, New Lots, Flatlands, Canarsie or even Marine Park or Mill Basin and Georgetown (Pigs lets lead a protest against NET!).
Yes, another segment would be in order.
And the program could even use the assitance of: www.rapidtransit.com to set them straight on giving more coverage to Brooklyn's old steam lines that paved the way for the migrating masses to reach the outer towns of Brooklyn in the pre-1898 period.
Doug aka BMTman
The problem is that they made a show entirely about Brooklyn, like they did about Harlem, Broadway and 42nd Street. Brooklyn is a lot bigger than any of those things.
They should go back to using streets.
A walk down Flatbush Avenue
A walk down 4th Avenue
A walk down Atlantic Avenue
Couple of mistakes -- they identified Fulton Street as "the Kings Highway", without mentioning the actual Kings Highway as an important road. Manhtattan Centric -- Kings Highway is the most important road that does not go to Manhattan.
I never thought of Park Slope as an "Arts and Crafts" area, but he is the architect not me.
Thanks for reminding me, I set my VCR.
I missed the Walk through Harlem because I wasn't paying attention (maybe I DO need to install WebTV).
yeah, pigs... you have to stay on top of these things... we're counting on you to monitor the show and make sure that they give due credit to the role that animals with snouts had in the development of greater brooklyn...
...animals with snouts had in the development of greater brooklyn...
It's nice to see that someone agrees with me about Brooklyn being greater!
Yes, it's true.
As a matter of fact the area around Empire Boulevard (when it was originally named Malbone Street) was called 'Pigstown' for the fact that the neighborhood abounded with pig farms.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, in fact Ebbets Field was built on the site of the Pigtown garbage dump in 1913.
Furthermore, my dad and I were pissed when they said "Well, we've done Brooklyn" without any mention of ENY, New Lots, Brownsville, Canarsie, and others.
Little or no mention of the Broadway El or Pitkin Av., etc., which would have at least made an attempt to complete the borough.
And yes, I was happy that I immediately recognized Marcy Av. station the second it came on. But that was an easy one.
I almost forgot: they left out a BIG neighborhood -- SHEEPSHEAD BAY!
(How could anybody forget Sheepshead Bay and it's landmark Lundy's Restaurant, the comedy club Pips and the famous dockside area).
Heypaul, if you're reading this give WNET a call and demand a special show for your 'hood!
Doug aka BMTman
i think i'll take this opportunity to bring my special brand of negativity to discuss this program... i got to watch about half of it, as i had a couple of phone calls from former students demanding their money back... i found the program at times to be too intellectually informative... it did not convey an emotional feeling of the lives of people... i guess i am comparing it to another series that channel 21 did on the city, which was less historical and depended more on people's memories of the 40's and 50's... cousin brucie was part of one on brooklyn that was much more nostalgic... but i guess i am not being fair to compare one formatted series with a more historically aimed one... so maybe i'll attack david hartman and barry lewis instead... i wish david hartman wasn't so upbeat... but you've heard all this kind of crap from me when i talk about transit transit... i don't know why i am this way?... i yearned for all the mounted pictures that david hartman was holding to fall down on the ground... or for them to be out of order and they would both get flustered... or perhaps for david hartman to look bored or look at his watch... i'll have to watch it again... when did i say it was on again?
"i wish david hartman wasn't so upbeat"
The press never provides a balanced view. In 1990, the press said New York City was hell on earth (it wasn't) and now they say it's paradise (it isn't). I guess if they are going to put out a myth, better a positive one than a negative one.
Perhaps they'll talk about the downside of Brooklyn when they discuss East New York/Browsville in a future episode. If the Manhattan Bridge doesn't fall down and present trends continue, most of Brooklyn will probably be working to upper middle class again in 50 years. But not those areas.
>>>Furthermore, my dad and I were pissed when they said "Well, we've done Brooklyn"
without any mention of ENY, New Lots, Brownsville, Canarsie, and others.
Little or no mention of the Broadway El or Pitkin Av., etc., which would have at least
made an attempt to complete the borough. <<<
Remember, this was Part One, implying that there will be Part Two if we be good and pledge money...
www.forgotten-ny.com
My wife and I are looking foward to it. Although there has been a pledge drive going on.
Will this show be shown in the rest of the country? Most notably Chicago?
The MBTA is set to hike fares, and (so they say) improve services. Here's the story from the Boston Globe.
It should be nice to get all new cars on the blue line and more cars on the orange line. But don't forget America's oldest subway line either! At the "Urban Ring" meeting that I attended I asked about the possibility of triple cars being run on the Green Line. The officials said that a study was going to wrap up this fall as far as passenger flow on the green line is concerned. If triple cars are necessary, the T may need to add more electrical power so the trains will run normally. -Nick
<< If triple cars are necessary, the T may need to add more electrical power so the trains will run normally. >>
Why? I recall seeing three-car PCCs run all the time during rush hour on the Green Line, especially out to Riverside.
All the LRV's now in use on the Green Line are considerably larger than a typical PCC car, and have three trucks each. I'd guess that two present-day Green Line LRV's are roughly equivalent to three PCC's in terms of size, weight and power (but still grossly inadequate for current passenger demand, IMO). Maybe somebody with a lot more knowledge about LRV's and PCC's could enlighten us. Todd??
-- David
Boston, MA
I think you are on the right track, David!
In addition to power requirements, remember that 3-car trains of LRVs require more labor: you need an operator in every car, and right now the T doesn't have a lot of extra staff during rush hours.
>>operator in every car<< ? has Sprague MU been abolished by union fiat?
<< >>operator in every car<< ? has Sprague MU been abolished by union fiat? >>
They collect fares.
Correct -- they collect fares on the surface portions of the lines. In addition, they say it's "for safety." If someone tries to jump the coupler to get from one side of the train to the other, the operator in the trailer car can hit the Big Red Button (aka the MUSHROOM) and force an emergency application of the brakes.
well, let's hear it for POP!. I am not looking to unemploy people, rather to have the workers operate more cars per hour and get better throughput.
At 1.5 square foot per pax (very tight loading) a Wartime PCC is considered at crush load with 130 people. An LRV or Type 7 is maxed at 269. So even allowing a bit of leeway with the numbers, 2 LRVs still outload 3 PCCs.
They should also convert the Fairmount commuter line to light rail, maybe connect it to the Green Line and make it the new A branch. I always thought it was dumb that there's no A branch (though there used to be one).
I think the "Silver Line" is a crock.
There's an interesting new sign on the fare control mezzanine of the South Station Red Line station. It says "Please excuse our construction -- new SILVER LINE COMING SOON."
Yes, the place is a mess. But coming soon? I don't think a number of years is "soon."
And yes, Dave, I agree with you. It's a lousy compromise. The MBTA and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts should uphold their promise to replace the old Orange Line el with quiet, clean, efficient light rail service. But instead, we're going to get "alternative" buses, with little advantage.
SO, what is the "silver line" to be?
Joe C.
Alternative fuel buses that run (at various times) in busways, on the street, and in dedicated tunnels. Portions are tentatively to be electric (trackless trolley) but I'll believe that when I see it. There will be two sections, one along the Washington Street corridor, and the other from South Station to the Fan Pier area of South Boston. Here's the latest propaganda I could find:
"The creation of the MBTA Silver Line, an innovative rubber-tire rapid transit service which will ultimately link the Washington Street Corridor and the South Boston Piers Transitway together providing a direct link to Logan Airport. By linking residential areas to key employment areas downtown as well as the Airport, the Silver Line will boost the economy of those neighborhoods and improve Boston’s economy as a whole. This new service will be operating along Washington Street in December, 2001 and the Transitway portion of the project in South Boston will be operating in 2003."
Note the word "ultimately." The two sections described above are under construction. But making the connection between the two, with the final link to the airport, is "in the future," as is the "option to convert to light rail." I think we'll see the 2nd Avenue Subway finished first :-)
What is this love affair these agencies have with cng, and busways. I, too, approve of busways, if handled properly and when no alternative is viable. One sure way to make a hit would be the "tube" bus system NY demonstrated about 8-9 years ago. The Curitiba buses were great, perhaps not for a city street as NY's but for a small corridor as proposed by the T. That would show potential passengers that they rate more than "just a bus", even if the bus is 60 feet long!
Additionally, is there really a reason to scrap the whole fleet of Blue line cars? (we've been there before, not that long ago, on both the blue and orange lines). These cars operate just fine and are not old. If the T wants to beef up service on both lines, order a supplemental fleet for the Blue, take the "spillover" from the Blue and modify for service on the Orange. By the way, what ever did happen to all the old St Louis and Pullman cars? Any museums grab any?
Yup, Seashore has a number of the old Blue Line cars. From our roster:
0512/0513 1923 Pullman Car. Co. (operable with some minor brake work last I checked)
0546/0547 1924 Pullman Car. Co.
0559/0562 1951 St. Louis Car. Co.
Hey Todd, did anyone pick up a P.S. Orange line car(s)? Hated to see all those things go. They were all so close to class K H&M cars.
Joe
Seashore has a pair: 01178/01179, 1958 Pullman Standards.
Here's a link to the entire Seashore collection.
Plenty of buzzwords, no meat. I read some of the reports that "proved" the superiority of the rubber tired systems over rail. Complete politico doublespeak b***s***. These reports were no doubt from the same hacks that proved that the Watertown line was impossible to run with LRV's. I read closely, and realized that they did all of their computations based on PCC capacities and door widths, even though the entire fleet (except Mattapan) had been long retired by that point (mid-90's).
After moving from Boston to NYC the major difference I see is that altough people complain about the transportation in both cities, New Yorkers, as a rule, tend to see that value of it a lot more. (Begrudgingly in some cases)
Dave
Exactly. Its like saying: "We hear your request for light rail service, and are giving you some very expensive busses - that's that same right?" It seems like there are plenty of people in Boston who would gladly get rid of all public transit.
Just spent two weeks in the Northwest. A couple of items to report.
MAX (Portland) - Got my first ride on the Westside extension. A great line! The Washington Park station (260' below ground) is quite interesting. Noticed that GO's are already in place for switch replacement at the Hillsboro terminal (paving is removed and rail is exposed - apparently there were some problems with the original turnouts which have only been in use for 2 years!). Also some GO's for elevator work at 3 Eastside stations (Hollywood, 60th Ave and 82nd Ave).
From one end to the other is a nearly 2-hour ride (schedules call for minimun 1 hour 50 mins) at $1.45 each way - a bargain. Peak hour schedules get a little complicated with a couple of turnbacks WB at the former downtown turnback (12th Ave) and more at Beaverton Transit Center (3-track station), a couple of eastbound shorts at Gateway and many post-peak put-outs at Ruby Junction and Merlo-158th.
There is a problem with the low-floor cars' articulation joint which apparently causes more noise than anything else. Notices are in the cars alerting riders to this.
Work is continuing on the Airport extension, scheduled to open next year. Wire is up close to the Airport but not close to Gateway, where the line will branch off the main route. A long curved structure over I-205 is being completed near Gateway. Not sure what the new service will be - the speculation appears to be that single-car (low floor) service will operate from downtown (12th Ave) to the Airport with normal two-car Gresham-Hillsboro service remaining on the main line. (I've also heard that shuttles will run Gateway-Airport in late hours.)
Portland Streetcar - tracks are in, wire is going up but cars won't be in town until February '01 at the earliest. There is a connection between this and MAX at 11th & Morrison. Apparently the replica Vintage cars will run on this line in addition to the Skoda cars now being built.
For you baseball fans, Seattle's Safeco Field has BNSF tracks practically running beneath the right field stands. Many freights and Amtrak runs pass through here. You may have heard the whistles if you've watched games on TV as there are several street crossings in the area (which also ties up game traffic!).
Also, forgot to mention the new home of the Oregon Electric Railway Museum in Brooks, just north of Salem. It's just starting but is worth a visit if you're in the area.
I usually spend my traditional weeklong midsummer vacation on a nice uncrowded Jones Beach, but the prolonged rain 'n' gloom made it much more desirable to do some rail tripping.
When I saw Monday the 31st was a literal washout, I headed for Fordham to get the first of three trains to Danbury, a branch I last rode in 1989 and have little memory of. Metro North's discounted contra-rush hour fares from Fordham to points north is a smashing success judging from the mobs of people backed up the stairs from the northbound platform.
Got the 7:27 local to Stamford, which was already packed with people from Grand Central. A lot of the cell-phone-ad-briefcase set got off at Mamaroneck, Harrison and Rye, where those cute SUV-type employee transports were waiting. It seems like Westchester employers do a lot more to accomodate reverse commuters coming by train than do Long Island firms.
Took a forty-one minute between-train breakfast break at Stamford, whose station seems permanently under construction. Noticed many diesels headed for Grand Central. I thought peak hour through diesels only originated from Danbury and Waterbury, but there seemed to be too many of them to be coming just from those places. Could there be any diesels originating from New Canaan or mainline destinations?
Got the diesel shuttle at South Norwalk, which seems to have gentrified a lot in recent years. I glimpsed one street sign pointing you to 'SoNo', which of course says "This is our new trendy area", a la SoHo, TriBeCa, NoHo, LoBro, SoMa. Anyway, the station building is enormous, more appropriate for a metropolitan Amtrak terminal than a small city's commuter station.
As soon as we peeled off the main line, the horn started. For those people who think there are no grade crossings in Connecticut, just meander up a branch line. Even in the more urban areas of Norwalk there are quite a few, and not just in industrial areas. The Danbury branch crosses some very busy streets adjacent to apartment complexes and shopping centers.
After Merritt 7, which is surrounded by large office parks and excavations for more office parks, the ambience turned very rural. The train itself seemed to abound with domestic workers, many of whom were met by large luxury cars and SUVs at each stop, especially the very wealthy Weston and Cannondale.
It looked like the original Danbury station has now been taken over by the railway museum, because the new station is before the sweeping curve I remember, and is much further back from the main drag- Elm Street? White Street? Unfortunately, the museum is closed on Mondays, but a glance in the yards looked interesting enough to consider as a future expedition.
There was only a forty-minute layover, during which time the train I was on discharged, moved ahead to a siding next to the museum yards and remained laid up until it returned to the station five minutes before departure time.
Unusually, the return train terminated at Stamford rather than South Norwalk. Maybe this is so it would go into the yard just north of Stamford for servicing. I changed there for the New Canaan shuttle, another branch I hadn't done in awhile. It's a short branch, just one track, with four stations close together, but seems to do a lot of business judging from the packed parking lots. Again, there were many crossings in congested areas, even in tony New Canaan itself. I had hoped to explore the town till the following train an hour and twenty minutes later, but the heavy rain made that impossible, so I just headed back.
Waited for the local back to Fordham, while the diesel I took to and from Danbury leisurely putted northbound through the station without stopping. Perhaps it was laid up somewhere between Stamford and Old Greenwich? The PA was announcing the D.C.-bound Amtrak as running two hours late "due to the weather". Funny, I heard the same two-hours-late announcement earlier while waiting for the connection to New Canaan. My return train was right on time, and I got the front window all the way back to Fordham.
The rain let up a little by then, so I treated myself to a speedy BX29 from Pelham Bay to City Island and back. (A recent discussion on the virtues of maritime Bronx has whetted my appetite.)
The weather reports were promising good weather for the rest of the week. HA!
[It seems like Westchester employers do a lot more to accomodate reverse commuters coming by train than do Long Island firms.]
Not that they could do much LESS :-)
[Took a forty-one minute between-train breakfast break at Stamford, whose station seems permanently under construction. Noticed many diesels headed for Grand Central. I thought peak hour through diesels only originated from Danbury and Waterbury, but there seemed to be too many of them to be coming just from those places. Could there be any diesels originating from New Canaan or mainline destinations?]
As far as I know, the only through diesels on the New Haven line come from Danbury. Waterbury trains venture no farther south than Bridgeport. Dunno why there were so many.
[Got the diesel shuttle at South Norwalk, which seems to have gentrified a lot in recent years. I glimpsed one street sign pointing
you to 'SoNo', which of course says "This is our new trendy area", a la SoHo, TriBeCa, NoHo, LoBro, SoMa. Anyway, the station building is enormous, more appropriate for a metropolitan Amtrak terminal than a small city's commuter station.]
South Norwalk does quite a bit of park 'n' ride business. I believe that nonresident parking permits for the station garage actually exist - in contrast to nonresident permits at other Connecticut rail stations, which are in a category with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
BTW, the gentrification of South Norwalk may seem like something new, but it isn't. It started back in the early to middle 1980's and really took off after completion of the Maritime Center near the end of that decade.
[After Merritt 7, which is surrounded by large office parks and excavations for more office parks, the ambience turned very rural. The train itself seemed to abound with domestic workers, many of whom were met by large luxury cars and SUVs at each stop, especially the very wealthy Weston and Cannondale.]
If the "Super 7" (conversion of U.S.7 to a limited-access highway) ever becomes a reality, the area along the Danbury line probably would develop even faster. Breaths should not be held, as Super 7 is sort of like the Second Avenue subway, all-talk-no-action.
Needless to say, the wealthy and politically influential people living in the area, or some of them at least, have pretty effectively blocked any progress on Super 7. It's funny, when you think about it. Rich and influential people seem to be able to use their $$$ and influence only in a negative sense. The big shots in Fairfield County can block Super 7, but the big shots on the Upper East Side can't get the Second Avenue line built.
Unusually, the return train terminated at Stamford rather than South Norwalk.
I beleive several shuttles are now extended to Stamford, for connection with the locals. This might explain the extra deisel trains. When I first looked at the main schedule, I thought it strange to run trains that start in Stamford and go to South Norwalk, express. It all made sense after I read the Danbury Branch table.
There was a published article in the Rocky Mountain News last week which stated RTD would trot out the four spare LRVs they keep on hand during rush hours due to higher-than-expected passenger volume on the new Southwest Corridor. People have complained that two-car trains originating at Mineral Ave. are packed by the time they get to Broadway, and the official word is that they will try to run 3-car trains as much as possible during rush hours. Sounds as if RTD may have to order even more LRVs; they're going to have to anyway once the Central Platte Valley Spur opens next year - assuming construction begins now.
RTD even took out a full-page ad in yesterday's News, thanking Denverites for the early success of the new extension. The ad pointed out that daily ridership has exceeded initial expectations by 24%, 28,000 vs an expected 22,000.
I was there, 10:50AM at 96th street on the 2 and waited till 11:30 for the R142 but nope, it didn't come. Pissed off, I got on the next 2 and took it to Wall Street, walked around and ended up at BB on the 6, tried to catch the 1:42PM R142 but nope, didn't come, I was there from 1:30-2PM, took the 6(Car num 1328:-) ) home. Heh, what a wonderful day:-).. By the way, does anyone know where they were today?
--Clayton Parker--
Today I was out in the system. And some bad crap went down!
And it went as such......
9:59am Boarded R-110B Car #3006 at 168th Street
10:01am R-110B Takes off on C line
10:26am Arrive at 96th Street Station and Alight train
*Notes: Very good ride, no problems
Crossed town to the Broadway line and met up with Clayton (Mista M86) and we waited at 96th Street together until 11:26am and nada showed (VERY DISAPOINTED), we rode down together on Redbird #9086, I alighted at Park Place to make connections with the R-110B again for it's northbound trip and here is where the trouble began..........
11:52am R-110B arrives at Chambers, board car #3001, seems problemless until......
12:02pm R-110B stops just short of the platform at West 4th Street.
12:03pm Lights on car #3001 and #3002 go out, conductor comes over the intercom and says we are experiencing technial difficulties with our eletrical system, no sweat it's just lights, plus the Interior message board was providing enough light.
12:06pm R-110B Proceeds into West 4th, as Car #3002 hits the platform the light return
12:07pm R-110B comes to a complete normal stop...BUT We now have a bigger issue. THE FREAKIN' DOORS DID NOT OPEN, we were stuck on this car until 12:11pm when a technician riding the train came through and opened our the doors manually.
12:08pm Conductor announces Train Is Out Of Service.
DAMMIT!
So if your going R-110B Hunting in the next two or three days, don't count on seeing it!
Trevor Logan
Nice cars...... too bad the guts of it are made of tissue paper,rubberbands andpaperclips
Wow, the train went out of service 3 minutes before the doors opened, must have been terrifying for the passengers to hear "This train is out of service, all off, going to the yard," yet they couldn't get out, but saw the people in the other cars leaving. But, isn't the C/R in 3001 on the northbound trip? And, to get people out, couldn't they remotely unlock the storm doors and tell everyone to "WALK THRU TRAIN?"
BTW: What is the status on the 110A, couldn't see it in Wakefield or 180th today, when will it go in service?
Terrifying is a pure understatement, the dumb conductor left the PA on and you can hear they whole conversation between him and the Control Center, they made it sound like a terrorist was taking over the train. When the doors opened at 12:11pm, it was like the mass exit, i've never witnessed a train get alighted so fast!
Trevor
Should have been at Fulton on the Lex. about Nov. 63 when one of my beloved old IRT Steinways (4766) blew up from a grounded shoe beam or bus line. And I let a few SMEE's go by waiting for it. Oh well, took a E and D combination home to the Bronx; at least had R9's, didn't want to settle for a SMEE. But.. fire, thick black smoke, man did those people run up the stairs., me too. Maybe the solution to the R110 B is bring back the R9's! No, I told another guy I've woke up. How about R40's? Simplicity is durable.( Wouldn't mind seeing new R9's)
Simple solution: build the R143 cars to look like R9 cars.
I saw the R131 cars pass through the 34th Street station on the express track. All signs said "Not In Service."
That must've been after we alighted, when we alighted the NTT R-110B/R-131, there was a Northbound (A) arriving on the express platform, 5229 as the head car. The must've sent the NTT R-110B/R-131 up the track behind us to the yard.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The r142a had link bar problems, the r142 has PA problems both were out of service today.
So what's the status of the 30-day clock on each set?
Back to day 1
does that reset the clock on the kawasakis?
Yes it does and to think that it all happens on my Vacation.
It left 241st at 6:15, it had sat there for 15 minutes, and the in station announcement (not the train) was "The rustbucket arriving on track 2 will be leaving first." I'm dead serious about this one. He repeated himself several times. I had boarded it at about 5:50 heading northbound from 219 st.
BTW, this was PM.
>>The r142a had link bar problem...r142 has PA problems
>> both were out of service today.....
YyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeesSSSSS!!
Even as far away as Champaign, IL
that is MUSIC TO MY EARS!!
Wait a minute. You're not in Champaign, are you? And if you are, do I know you?
I am planning to attend my High School s reunion in Great Neck this Fall, I will be driving from White Plains to Great Neck. Can someone please tell me, what the tolls are on the 3 Bronx-Queens Bridges, is it in both directions? Also the Toll on the George Washington to the City, and in what direction. This is to hey Paul now, If I am coming from Hawaii, you can go from Brooklyn. I will even pick you up if you don t have a car
The Triborough, Whitestone, and Throgs Neck Bridges are each $3.50 each way, $3 with E-ZPass. The GWB is $4 eastbound, $3.60 with E-ZPass.
The GWB is $2.50 with the PA All Bridges Plan.
tHANKS GUYS, i GUESS i BRING A COUPLE ROLLS OF QUARTERS SINCE I WILL ONLY BE MAKING 1 RT ON EACH SECTION
Better off with cash. There are no exact change buckets on any of those crossings. If you don't have EZPass, you wait in line to give your money to a person.
-Hank
Then can I give them rolls of nickles?
Bob, turn your CAPS LOCK key off. It shows in your messages. As a teacher.........
Or make it a habit to Preview Message Before Posting.
Or perhaps, since the 'I' in his message was NOT capitalized, he hit the Caps Lock key in error. Done it myself a million times.
-Hank
Why would you use the George Wshington if you're going from White Plains to Great Neck?
By the way, what's the toll on the Maui to California Tunnel?
1-To get from Newark Airport to White Plains. 2-The tunnel from Maui to LA is $189.00 plus taxes each way, depends on the day of the week.
2-The tunnel from Maui to LA is $189.00 plus taxes each way, depends on the day of the week.
Except on Sunny Sundays when only Triplexes can run through it
[By the way, what's the toll on the Maui to California Tunnel?]
Dunno, but it'll probably get built long before the Second Avenue subway does!
HELLO EVERYBODY I'M BACK FROM MY LONG VACATION AND I AM GOING TO START JOING AGAIN ON THIS BOARD SO NICE SEEING YA! BYE
A copy of the 1976 softbound edition of "Uptown, Downtown" by Stan Fischler, a history of New York's subway, is being offered on eBay. It is item #397928968, the last bid was $8.50, and the auction ends at 20:12 Pacific time. Seems like a bargain if you don't own this book. Disclaimer: I am not the seller, know the seller, or a bidder.
I have a copy of this book, which I got a long time ago. The first print, they had a picture of the built-in-1966-by-St. Louis Car R-38 in which they made two errors on the caption: 1) that it was from the late 1950’s and 2) that it was manufactured by Budd (the second print corrected the latter error but not the former). Also on the first print of the book they showed a PATH car interior and made some description about the spacious interior of the R-44/46 car(s). But on the second print they correctly noted about PATH and its service in the caption. My copy has these later modifications.
Some public libraries have the book. Several years ago, the Huntington Library on Main St., Huntington had a copy.
Many of the suburban libraries have garage sale type day where they sell old books that have not be widely circulated for a while in order to create shelf space for new books. Generally this day is set to coincide with the Library Budget vote.
If you lose out on the bidding at e-Bay, you can purchase Stan's updated book "The Subway--A Trip Through Time on New York's Rapid Transit" at tmny.safeshopper.com (and help support the Trolley Museum too).
Or through amazon.com and help support this website...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're better off getting "The Subway - a Trip through time on NY's Rapid Transit." It's more up to date. Uptown, Downtown - 1976, The Subway - 1997.
According to Railpace Magazine’s hot news posted Aug 7, DaimlerChrysler AG will sell its Adtranz rail systems unit to Bombardier Inc.
Finally, no more Adtrash, excuse me, Adtranz.
Hey, what is wrong with Adtranz. They made the new M4 in Philadelphia, and the N-5 on the Norristown High Speed Line, and they seem nice, at least, interior wise.
Yeah, but the M4's were over two years late, the first ones built were oversize for the MFSE and overweight, and SEPTA collected a $23M state-of the-art signal system for the Subway-Surface in lieu of contract penalties. The N-5's were declared "total disasters" by Jack Leary.
Other late and improperly built Adtranz cars were the 18 additional LRV's for MTA Baltimore's Central Light Rail Line. The cars were 26 months late, and arrived with a nasty vibration that appeared if the speed exceeded 35 MPH. The MTA and Adtranz went round and round, each side claiming the other side was at fault. Finally, the Light Rail's own shop forces discovered that the trucks were torqued incorrectly. They re-tourqued the trucks to the proper (as used on the original 35 cars built by ABB Traction) specs and the vibration disappeared.
Adding (almost) insult to injury, a "Special Use" PCC (SEPTA 2711) was reconditioned by Adtranz for Arden. The car arrived at Arden with almost dead batteries, which meant that Adtranz had never tested the car at Elmira.
Need we say more?
Yeah, they were late, they were suppose to be in service from 1997. Geez, they are a bad company, but I take the N-5 every week and it isn't really bad now. I guess I agree with you, but why does SEPTA keep buying vehicles from them then?
Good question. Could be because both the N-5's and the M4's were designed by SEPTA's engineering department. Adtranz (M4's) may have been the only builder to bid on the job. The N-5's were a SEPTA design and were supposed to built by Amtrak. The first one was, then the problems started. ABB Traction wound up with the job, I believe, and by that time it was too late. SEPTA was desparate for equipment, the bullets and the 60's were gone and the service was being held down with the ex-CTA PCC's and 4 of the Almond Joy singles, with PATH K car trucks. The Budds were supposed to back to the MFSE, but after the Suburban Division got done with them, the City Division wanted nothing to do with them. They were the first Budds to go to scrap after a long break.
As to SEPTA's car designs, based on the current track record, the articulated LRV's will (if they ever show up, don't bet the farm) also be total disasters. The word around a lot of the industry is that they wouldn't let SEPTA design an outhouse.
But LRVs can be done off the shelf by the manufacturer. And that's the way it should be done. Since the N5s run entirely above ground they could have been done by the manufacturer.
BTW, who designed the N5 cars? Were they stoned or something when they did it? Am I the only one who thinks those cars are butt-ugly? Must have been the same people who designed the last Chevy Caprice. They should never be allowed near a drawing board or CAD program again.
I actually recall Jack Leary saying they were planning to go with an off-the-shelf product for the Schuylkill Valley Metro. I saw this somewhere on the DVARP site (might have been one of their links) but in the same article he called the N5s a disaster. Stay tuned...
As I said in my previous post, the N-5 and the M4 were both designed by the SEPTA Engineering Department. As to the N-5, butt ugly is saying it lightly. The Bullets were designed with the aid of a wind tunnel. Very unusual for a 1920 era design, but Conway was a radical thinker. The Bullets were sucessful for 50 years and were still hitting 80 at the end of their careers.
The N-5 design comes from the same school that has given us square LRV's, buses that are boxes on wheels - it's cheaper to fix. Rounded ends with curves (like the PCC car) are expensive. So, we get utilitarian designs that are cheap to fix and unatractive.
After all these years of rounded edges, maybe some of us find the squared off boxiness a refreshing change. Then again, maybe some of us have no taste.
Getting back to the original point, about what is so bad about Adtranz, this is the same company responsible for the EWR monorail, isn't it?
Let's see.
1. SEPTA buys new Market El cars from ABB Traction. ABB Traction vanishes into Adtranz, order is 2 years late, first two cars are too heavy and too wide for the Elevated. Order finally arrives almost 3 years late, SEPTA gets $23M signal system for subway-surface (streetcar) system in lieu of contract penalties. Cars finally delivered in 1999, old Budds are scrapped. Cracks in trucks of 4 cars discovered, trucks being replaced by AAI Corp, the contractor. Remaining cars being checked. Quality?
2. Baltimore MTA orders 18 additional LRV's from ABB Traction (builder of 35 original cars, cars are fantastic quality and excellant performers. Service availability approaches 98%.) ABB Traction vanishes into Adtranz, order is 3 years late and arrives with an irritating vibration that shows up above 35 MPH. Adtranz and MTA lawyers go round and round. MTA Light Rail Shop discovers that the trucks are improperly tourqued. They re-tourque the trucks to the specs used on the original 35 cars - new cars have same trucks from same bulder, AAI. Vibration vanishes. Quality?
3. Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (Arden) gets Adtranz to donate a SEPTA PCC as a "Special Use" car (Wheelchair accessable). Adtranz gets car 2711, refits it and paints it in the PTC 1947 delivery colors. When the car is delivered to PTM, they discover that the car's batteries are almost dead, meaning Adtranz never checked it at Elmira. Later they discover that some of the wooden parts of the roof are rotted and have to replace them. Wooden parts like the trolley hook base. Quality?
4. Adtranz agrees to rehab PTM's Pittsburgh 1937 air-electric PCC. A recent report reveals that body work is complete and bondo is being applied on body imperfections. Just as a comparison, when the Baltimore MTA restored the body of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's 7407 in 1990 and 1991, any body panel too rusted or dented was removed and replaced with totally new steel. Battery acid damage has been a problem on PCC's since 1936. Acid (even weakened) destroys carbon steel. Solution: (From MBTA in Boston) Replace in stainless steel. 7407 sports a stainless steel battery box. 10 years later, not a sign of acid damage.
Bondo on a restored PCC? Where's the quality there?
They also made the Danish Flexliner EMU/DMU series, the Swedish X2000 tilting trains and the German ICE high-speed trains as well as many LRVs. Those products seem to be doing well. I was actually surprised to find out that that the N5s and M4s had so much trouble, but I think it was the Elmira plant. Coincidence between here and Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant? I think not!
Something happened between ABB Traction and Adtranz. ABB Traction built 35 LRV's for the MTA (Baltimore). The first two, 5001 and 5002, were the test cars. The MTA and ABB ran the wheels off the two cars as soon as the power was on. Everything that wasn't right was fixed on those two and applied to every other car of the 35. At the end of the delivery, the acceptance period was down to three days. Those 35 cars were so reliable that MTA exercised its extension order for 18 more cars three weeks after opening day in May 1992. The cars have a 97% availability ratio even today.
The 18 cars showed up in 1996 - full of problems. The delivery was not complete until late 1997.
The difficulties of the 18 Adtranz cars has been discussed earlier in this thread.
Someone should bring back Budd. Hey, remember that old guy we met on the MFL who used to work for Budd? That was a pretty fortunate meeting.
Yes, a very interesting conversation about the late, great Budd Company, but I didn't think he was old.
Well he may not have been old, but he was more than a little grizzled.
this budd's for you
Oh, goody!!! The (somewhat) no railcar quality shop buys the NO quality shop.
Since ADtranz was unable to deliver any order on time or built to spec, can Bombardier do any better? Or, will they now possess two "Plattsburg" plants?
Adtranz was good when they were ABB, at least. As much maligned as the Arrow IIs are, they beat the snot out of the M-series in terms of acceleration...
And they have those cool pantographs on them too :)
Adtranz was good when they were ABB, at least. As much maligned as the Arrow IIIs are, they beat the snot out of the M-series in terms of acceleration...
And they have those cool pantographs on them too :)
click ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
click ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is there a site for people who collect subway signs / images? Is there an organization of collectors? You folks would know. Help,
please!
I don't know of one (most of us are on here)
Sorry, I sold all my stuff about 1 1/2 years ago. Could have helped you then but think it was all from before you're time unless you're older than I'm guessing. (old IRT stuff from High-V, Low-V etc.) Have you tried the Transit Museum in Brooklyn, Or the Shore Line Museum at Branford. I hear they have some of that stuff.
I have tried the Transit Museum. Even they unofficially suggested
I go on-line to try to find some of the transit employees or transit
afficianados who may have held on to some of these things. No one
else would have considered them "valuable!" Who bought your collection? I need to find the Canal St. station signs, and Evacuation Instructions in Spanish. Other things may be of interest
too. I make a lot of the cool tee shirts etc sold at the museum shop!
Where is the Branford Museum?
The Branford Electric Railway (aka BERA) is located in East Haven Conn. and is accessible through their web address: www.bera.org
Direct business inquiries to: Mr. George Boucher
If you live in the NYC TriState area you might want to visit the museum. They are near exit 51 off of I-95. The drive from NYC is approx. 1 1/2 to 2 hours.
Doug aka BMTman
Thank you, BMT Man! I will go there. Meanwhile, anybody else got ideas on finding de-commisioned NYC subway signs from inside the
cars, or stations? Canal St. with Chinese characters under it,
or Emergency evacuation signs in Spanish especially. Photos would
be fine!
one of the regulars here SUBWAY SURF was restoring signs at the transit museum... i know you said that you spoke with them there, but maybe SUBWAY SURF could give you some ideas...
Unfortunatly, the transit museum is no longer into selling old signs. They only take what is needed for collections. But the next time I am there I will check for you anyway, to be sure. Photos might be available at their archives.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unfortunatly, the transit museum is no longer into selling old signs
True. There's actually a very nice exhibit of them in the back of the museum, beyond the surface exhibit.
--Mark
The emergency evac instructions are still on several cars running around on the 5 and 6 lines, I saw one yesterday on the 6 in car number 95??.
Dear Henry,
Thanks!
Was the emerg. evac instructions JUST in Spanish? That's what's hard
to find. SG
I couldn't tell, I was across the platform.
By the way, I remember a large Canal st. sign sold off eBay about a month or two ago, I can't really recall the price but it was above my $60 limit. The sign is one off the wall, if I remember. The person who put it up probably took more, and is waiting a short while to put another up.
Of course, they took down a whole bunch from the Canal St. bridge line station rehab some time around spring, they're probably sitting stashed in the tunnel or one of the staircases or something on the currently closed platform... It wouldn't hurt to ask if you see any workers there (There seldom are, work is slow since the station won't reopen for another year).
Sorry Henry, I'm not so clued-in to these things. Where is the
Canal St. Bridge line? What would the cross street be? I checked
out ebay thanks to you and others. I see other signs there, but
not this one. I emailed one of the sellers, he said he couldn't help.
At least now I feel it's possible. If only someone will trust me
not to turn them in, I could preserve these things on tee shirts.
I think they would be so cool. I understand how the people taking
them might be suspicious, but we'd have NO transit museum without
the people who did that!!
LL
Canal-Broadway (the "Bridge" station) is located beneath Canal Street proper, between Broadway and Centre Streets. It is part of the transfer from the Broadway BMT (N/R) and the Nassau Street (J/M/Z). You have to walk almost the length of the platform to make the transfer.
wayne
Canal Street Bridge is said to differentiate it from the other Canal St. on the N/R (yellow) lines. Just north of that, the Broadway (yellow) express tracks (which are currently not in use) diverge from the mainline to cross the Manhattan Bridge on the south side. These tracks are currently not open. The Canal St. Bridge station is underneath Canal St. on the tracks that connect the Broadway tunnels to the Manhattan Bridge. Currently not open, these tracks are constantly being closed for repairs because of the fact that the Manhattan Bridge is falling apart. The Manny B falling apart has been the subject of several threads in the past...if used by trains, the Canal St. Bridge Station would be used by the N which would bypass the Montague Tunnels (the tunnels currently used by both the N and R (and rushour M) to cross the river into brooklyn). If you have any other subway questions you can ask me, I am the other inexperienced one on Subtalk but I have learned many things since I first posted on here last Christmas and I think I know the system pretty well for someone who has only been to New York once (I live in the Seattle area). Hope that answers your questions
I Can recall subway evacuation STICKERS on the cars if that's what you'd refer to, one side English, other side Spanish. Don't know if that's what you had in mind. The Metro North also used them, in English only, and added mention of firemen as emergency reponse persons.For subway use the word fireman or fire was a nono for good reasons.
yes,
A sticker is what I'm looking for!
Been years since I had one of them. Wonder if you had any friends in the shops whether somehow, somebody would find some buried orhidden with "obsolete' items? A shop friend gave me the one I had.
Shoreline, AKA Branford, used to have a sign shop with all sorts of memorabilia. It was right next to where the cars stop at Farm River Rd. I picked up my IND sign box there, complete with signs, 20 years ago. Unfortunately, the fellow who ran the shop passed away some time ago, and the shop was subsequently closed and dismantled.
I still remember driving down Farm River Rd. and parking next to the shop to load that sign box in my car, and as I was doing so, two members engaged in a memorable exchange which I could hear plainly:
"What's this guy up to?"
"He's building a subway car at home."
I wish....
Actually it still exists via mail order. The store you are referring to was called the "Whistle and Rollsign Store". And they still go to various railroad shows (Hoboken, Liberty Park, etc). If you're interested send an e-mail to Alan at subwayal@aol.com He picked up where the store left off.
Jim.
Alan is a PATH operator who we met by chance on one of the "Field Trips" to the Newark PCCs last year. He's also a member of Branford & part time worker on the H&M #503 there. In addition I ran into him at the rapid transit model show in NJ this Spring and bought a TA badge for my operators hat ... Ding Ding.
The point is that he's carrying on the tradition of the "Whistle & Roll-Sign shop, just in a high tech way.
So now you have plunty to talk about while you're negotiating for that Roll Sign. Happy hunting.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, that's it - the Whistle and Rollsign store. I had heard it was operating out of New Jersey somewhere. As I recall, at that time, all proceeds were earmarked for construction of a new carbarn. There was a complete IND sign box installed by one of the windows, and it had light fixtures for the upper sign attached to it. Eddie Sarkauskas explained that some of the R-1/9s came that way; however, most of them had the upper light fixtures attached to the car side itself. My sign box, for instance, does not have upper light fixtures. I gave my address to Eddie in case he came across any upper fixtures, but never heard from him.
He's got another one on e-Bay right now. Check out this entry.
--Mark
Mark, are you talking about the Wall St. sign? Isn't it beautiful.
I bet some "Titan of the Universe" will buy it.
No - not the Wall Street sign (though I saw that one, one for 14th Street and another one which I can't remember right now.
The one I referred to is a roll sign from the front of an R-9.
--Mark
You might try e-Bay. There is a catagory called "Subway" under "Transportation" under "Collectibles". Occasionally, old subway signs come up for auction. Currently there is a "Wall Street" porcelein enameled sign for sale. Good luck!
If you're interested in viewing a few old LIRR cars. There are, I believe, 5 sitting in a yard in Ridgeley, WV waiting for rehabilitation for the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad. The yard is in Ridgeley but the RR runs from Cumberland, MD up to Frostburg, MD along an old Western Maryland Railway Right-of-Way. The cars can be seen from I-68 west of Cumberland as it crosses over Haystack Mountain. It's clear to see the cars were used on the LIRR during the 70's due to the fact that they have Logos celebrating the Bicentennial on them. For more info. contact the Western Md Scenic RR at (301) 759-4400, or write them at 13 Canal St. Cumberland, MD 21502, or check out their web site at www.wmsr.com
I saw the set Friday and Saturday, and today. While waiting 45 minutes for the R-142a, I saw somewhat in its time slot (well, after waiting that long, every <6> seems to be in its time slot!). Cars 1416-1420, along with 1345-1349 (new floors!) were at Brooklyn Bridge at approx. 4:10 PM. All the rollsigns (including the front and between the sets) had just a diamond 6 (no white "Express" underneath). The middle cars said (4) or <4>, except for one which was 3/4 on (3). The strip maps were still for the 4. The really big window (side window before transversification) that lets you see in the cab has already been spraypainted over by someone from the 6, sugggesting it will stay there for a while.
Today, I took the first Nereid bound 5 for the day, and at 180th it was extended to 241st (T/O scrolled the bulkhead to make it official) because of a really, really long gap in 2 service (they sent a Dyre 5 local and had us wait for the connection). Upon arrival at 241st, the crew and a dispatcher ran around changing the signs to that of a 2, and in about 2 minutes both bulkheads were changed, as well as most of the side signs from
238st Nereid, Bronx
Bowling Green, Manhattan
<5>Lex Ave Express, Bronx Thru Express
to:
241st White Plains Rd.
Flatbush Ave, Brooklyn
(2)7th ave Express
The train's consist was mostly R-28, with 2 R-26s and 2 R-29s. Approx 4 cars had the old windows.
That happens all the time during rush hour,
But usually at Dyre ave. Meaing 2 trains become 5
trains.
If that was originally a 5 Thru Express, how come it was only going to Bowling Green? Don't they typically go to Flatbush Ave. during rudh hours?
There are some 5's that start at Bowling Green to aleviate the crowd in Manhattan.
OK, I'll buy that.
Actually, AFAIK all 238st bound 5s start at Bowling Green. I always see them DHing south with 238st as the northern dest.
Not all, some leave from New Lots (Livonia) ang go straight to 239 yard.
On a recent PBS special about Brooklyn, they referred to the area near the Manhattan Bridge as "DUMBO," which stood for "Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass." Has anyone ever heard this name used for that area before? This was the first time I had ever heard it, and I have lived in Brooklyn all my life!
Yes, it's been used before. I've heard that term for the area not just UNDER the Manhattan Bridge, but technically the area between both the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridge towers as DUMBO.
The Yuppies have "discovered" this former waterfront area that still has remnants of the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad, making it difficult for them to manevour their Mercedes & Lexus' without damage to their suspension.
Doug aka BMTman
[The Yuppies have "discovered" this former waterfront area that still has remnants of the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad, making it difficult for them to manevour their Mercedes & Lexus' without damage to their suspension.]
There's always the Mercedes M-class and the Lexus RX300 :-)
<< the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad >>
What did this RR connect?
<< the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad >>
What did this RR connect?
It didn't connect with anything else actually. The "Connecting" part of the name refers to the fact that the line had many spurs that terminated in various area warehouses, thusly making most of them accessible to each other via street trackage.
Plymouth, Front and Washington Streets still have some sections of rail imbedded in the cobblestones which will make for a rough ride in anything but an SUV.
> > Has anyone ever heard this name used for that area before?
> Yes, it's been used before.
Actually, I didn't mean has it been used before. I meant has anyone ever heard of it before. The word before was meant to modify the word heard, not used.
By the way, you did answer my question okay.
[DUMBO.
The Yuppies have "discovered" this former waterfront area ]
It's actually populated less by YUPPIES and more by artists and Jehovah's Witnesses.
They are always making up acronym for old neighborhoods. Just like TRIBECA (Triangle between Canal and ??), and SOHO (South of Houston). Doesn't DUMBO meant at one time District under Manhattan Bridge?
TRIangle BElow CAnal
SOuth of HOuston
NOrth of HOuston
NOrth of Little ITAly
What will they call it after the Manny B falls down? DAMBR, or District Amoungst Manhattan Bridge Rubble?
[What will they call it after the Manny B falls down? DAMBR, or District Amoungst Manhattan Bridge Rubble?]
We will know soon enough [crunch!]
I wonder if the city should put up signs to aviod liability. "Danger: Watch for falling Bridge" I wonder if even the M class could protect you.
DUMBO- "Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass" is one of those neighborhood names created by the real estate industry to enhance the image of an older urban area.
Other examples--
"East Village", "Alphabet City" or "NoLita" for various sections of the Lower East Side, "Clinton" for Hell's Kitchen, "Chelsea" for the West 20s, "Carroll Gardens" in Brooklyn for parts of Red Hook.
Or how about "Astoria" for the non-industrial reaches of what is technically "Long Island City?"
Umm, Chelsea is an old name, it dates back to a developer building houses around a central square (Chelsea Square) between 8th and 9th and 19th and 20th in the 1800s. The square has since been replaced by the General Theological Seminary.
Alphabet City was coined by people themselves, it's an obvious name referring to the uniqueness of the avenues there.
While we are on this digression, another one of my favorites is Carnegie Hill. I grew up during the forties and fifties in the east lower nineties and had never heard of this name while growing up. This neighborhood name may not be that new, but, as already been pointed with respect to other nifty neighborhood names, it seems to be more something which is pushed by the real estate industry than something which has been in common use among neighborhood residents in the past.
[...one of those neighborhood names created by the real estate industry....]
Don't forget "Loisaida" - a fake-Spanish rendering of "Lower East Side." It's basically the eastern half of Alphabet City, centered on Loisaida Avenue (a.k.a. Avenue C).
Today actually saw 4 different sets of slants on the WesEnd line. Did anyone catch any R68a's on
the Q?
I wonder if they aren't beginning this supposed switch a little early.
wayne
switch? could you elaborate for the unobservant...?
Someone had mentioned that a swap of equipment between the "Q" and "B" lines was imminent.
Wayne
Yes, but that mention was based on supposition, not on fact. The only thing we've seen in print about the fleet after delivery of the R-143s is a 1997 projected car assignment (which I think Joe Korman still has on his site). However, that assignment was made before it was decided to send the R-40s to the Q line and the R-68As to the B line.
David
OK, thank you for clearing up the cobwebs.
We'll keep an eye on the situation. It wouldn't be SO bad to have a split between "B" and "Q" as far as the Slant fleet is concerned. The express run from 36th Street to Pacific is pretty good - the Slants really get cooking when they get to about 9th Street.
wayne
Not to mention their trademark deep-throated rumble when they get rolling.
Oooooohhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooo.
Since my 'Final Word' post of 2 nights ago, I have received 23 e-mail messages. Each of then asked me to reconsider my decision to leave subtalk. They ranged from stating that I'm too thin skinned to anger for mr. kronrnberg (heypaul) and his friends. While 23 is no landslide considering the population of subtalk, the count was 23 - o in favor. However, this is not a popularity contest and while the overwhelming support is very warming, support was never an issue.
While I intend to write each of you 23 individually and thank you for your kind thoughts, I want to use this venue to publicly thank you. I also will admit to a certain amount of narcissism (jersey mike, heypaul will tell you what that means). I have read all of the posts that followed my 'final words' post i'd perfer not to comment on any of them at this time with the exception of one. Jersey Mike, any time you feel hoppy, froggy you can sniff that rod to your heart's content. And that brings me to the the real point of this posting. In each of the 23 e-mails and in all of the follow-up posts, no one seems to get it.
Over the past few years we've had some very good times. We've also had some very heated discussions. A few people have actually been virtually run out of town. However, regardless of who, regardless of why and regardless of what, the rules have always been the same. The content of the posting was always the issue. We attacked the content of the posting and not the character of the poster. This was even true in the case of Salaam when he was posting his racist garbage. His postings were vilified but he was not. The only exception to this was the person who posted that the MTA was deliberately killing people. That is until recently.
In the past few months, I have been increasingly intollerant of mr kronenbergs posted humor. Even more-so when he was joined in by a few of his equally talanted foils. They prolonged threads of pure drivel ad-nauseum, adding nothing, at least to my mind. Granted, I dislike mr kronenberg on a very personal level (and he may reveal why if he choses). When he posted legitimate questions or comments, I responded to him with civility. However, when I felt his humor was too far over the edge, I criticized it as I would any other posting that i disagreed with. I did not attack him. I said his humor did not impress me. To his credit (and I give him precious little), mr kronenberg chose to ignore my comments. However, several people who were not criticized decided to take up the cause of heypaul.
Bearing in mind that the handle train dude was adopted to end confusion at a time when at least 4 people were posting as Steve, I have never tried to hide who I was. I have had some of you as guests to my facilities either at jamaica or Concourse shops. However, there emerged a few who while hiding behind annonymous handles and identities, began to avenge my defaming of their leader. The problem is, they have gone beyond the point of the prevailing rules and etiquette of this forum. They have not attacked my postings but have launched a fusillade of personal attacks, far in excess of the original sin. One stated that my lack of appreciation of heypaul's humor is exactly why my employees had no morale. Of course he knew nothing of my employees or my work style. Another referred to my "Pathetic life in the bronx" and then tonight our resident scholar jersey mike's very painful cheap shot. Again, these attacks were not about the content of my posting but my persona and my life. This was far in excess of the norm for this site. These and a few others, hiding behind psudonyms have begun a string of attacks that i find cowardly and vicious. In the last day, regardless of what i posted, they attacked me. Admittedly, my level of anger was out of proportion to the offenders but anger is not always a proportional thing. Do I want to waste so much energy? Does anyone see the difference in the response?
I have not deleted the link to this site and will be following some threads that interest me. I may even post something on occassion when the subject is provocative enough. However, at this time, until the alpha-males find another playground to burn off their excess testosterone, life on this site will be far less contentious without my active, regular participation. To do otherwise would not prudent at this time.
Again, to the 23 kind people who have e-mailed me, my profound thanks. To the others over the years who have informed me of problems and have given me ideas I could take credit for, again thank you. For those who have filled some quiet nights while my wife was at work, thanks for keeping me company. And most of all to doug, mabstoa, jersey and the other pitbull pups, thanks for helping to keep it all in perspective.
Once again, for those of you who have suggested publically and privately that I use the kill-file for heypaul, I hope you see now that he in no way was the real problem. He was just the catalyst, the excuse for the thugs to act up. Frankly, I just don't care to play their game any more.
BTW: If you disagree with my assessment - go at it.
NOW FOR THE TEASE:
As long as you read through that here's a tidbit you don't have yet.
Queens Blvd. Routes after 63rd St connection opens (as of 8/07/00)
E - Parsons Archer - WTC via 53rd St
F - 179th St. to Stillwell via 63rd St
R - 71 Ave to 95th St via 60th St
V - 71 Ave to 2nd Ave via 53rd St
[Once again, for those of you who have suggested publically and privately that I use the kill-file for heypaul, I hope you see now
that he in no way was the real problem. He was just the catalyst, the excuse for the thugs to act up. Frankly, I just don't care to play their game any more.]
In addition to kill-filing heypaul, if that's what you choose to do, you also can be selective in what you read. Nothing says that you have to read every message or even every thread. Pick and choose according to your preferences.
[Nothing says that you have to read every message or even every thread. Pick and choose according to your preferences.]
I've said this very same thing several times before, e.g. when you know or at least suspect that "Crank" is calling on the phone, who says that you have to answer it ? Good advise for many of us.
My choosieness has a lot to do with the limited amount of time that I provide myself (so I miss SOME good stuff), but it also has to do with fluff/personal preferences or rock throwing that I have no interest in participating in. However, a little fun mixed in makes my visit that much more enjoyable and since we're all individuals some like Jerry Lewis (not me), some Rodney Dangerfield (me but definitly not my wife). As far as heypaul is concerned, I don't find his humor ALWAYS funny or appropriate/proper, but I do mostly AND there is usually substance written between the lines. After the first time we met we became friends. There is another who showed up Saturday, was his first "Field Trip", which he enjoyed, use to get into it with heypaul, BUT now too considers heypaul a friend.
This said maybe it's just time to drop this whole line, because what does it have to do with mass transit ?
Mr t__:^)
Is that V a local, or an express?
-Hank
My suspicion is that the V would be Queens express (Manhattan Local) and the F Queens & Manhattan local. Otherwise, there will be whole lot-o'-crossing going on at the 36th street interlocking.
As far as the Q is concerned, if the Manny-B south side is open, then the Q's northern terminus can be 57/7. But if the north side is open, I can't figure out where it can turn without creating a bottleneck. Unless there's some creative way to do it at the stub tracks of Lex/63.
Unless there's some creative way to do it at the stub tracks of Lex/63.
Here's a thought.
Punch out the walls at Lex / 63rd St, activate that side of the platform that's already there, and terminate the Q trains on those tracks.
--Mark
Won't work, because there's no connection between the 2 levels, so you'd have to wrong-rail back to 57st.
-Hank
I want to see the Q (or the rumored new "V" train) go all the way to 179th Street. That way either the F can run express all the way to 179th while the Q or V runs local or the Q or V can while the F runs local.
I'd like it best if the Q were express all the way to 179th, replacing the F as the Queens Blvd. Express while the F runs with the V and R as lcoal (except the the F should continue as local all the way to 179th.) First of all, it's consistent with the way the F and Q run in Manhattan. Second, it would mean a ride from Midtown Manhattan to the Easternmost point of mainland Queens accessible by subway can be done entirely by express and with a minimum of stops.
Of course, I like this option best because it would save me six stops on my cmomute.
:)Andrew
The express should go all the way to 179th Street. If the F becomes local AND goes to 179th, it will be a mess sometimes. It was the slowest line in the B Division at one point so unless it is cut back if it is made local, there is a problem.
What about the
Q or
Q?
We'll find out soon enough, I'm sure. Remember, it's only a tease.:-)
Well I'm sorry I took you at your word and actually believed that you were really not comming back. It may just be me, but I don't like it when people storm off Message Boards (because of a single person or because of a mild content issue) because it is really just manuplitive ploy to make others on the MB feel bad, by thinking that they caused you so much pain that you had to leave the MB. You were trying to paint yourself as a mawrter* on order to have other boarders group together and stop heypaul before he so hartlessly drives other away like he did to poor Train Dude. Well I wasn't going to feel bad (wasn't going to feel glad either) and although I have never complained about you or your crusade before, I felt I should let off a little harpoon to help redirect the blame away from heypaul and back to where it belonges. From past post observations I felt a Simpsons's joke would get the message accross. I can admit when I am wrong. Those fake news stories were a mistake and now I'm sorry that some viewers did not get the inside joke. However I still do not agree with your actions regarding the heypaul matter. I hope that you will stay, but if you really want to leave just leave quietly. Don't keep comming back and yelling at people and making overdramatic exits.
Inside joke? Those fake news stories were idiotic and asinine, to say the least.
-Hank
Yes, they were, however The rod up his butt has a rod up his bott was the inside joke I was refering to. There is a "now" in that sentence that sets the 2 subjetc appart. yes, I realize I was confusing there. BTW please give me credit for stoping those news stories upon yor request.
I have every intent from withdrawing from my active participation here, at least to the extent that I deem appropriate. However, since it seems that personal attacks are now fair game on subtalk - I'll play.
Clearly, you think that your keen insight into sub-normal intelligent TV shows is more interesting than the posted topic of this board. How about if we put it to a vote? Wanna chance it? YOur insight into the Simpsons vs mine about the NYCT? Come on BIG MOUTH - PUT UP OR SHUT UP? Loser leaves permanently - no good bye or anything! I'll abide by the will of the majority. What about you?
Now, I had intended to withdraw from subtalk or at the very least severely limit my activities here. I still do. That's for me to decide - not you. But you keep chasing me. Only thing, be sure you know what you are going to do with me when you catch me. As for the rod in my butt, the offer still stands! It's yours for the sniffing, you weasel.
BTW: I know subtalk does not provide a spell checker but have you ever heard of a dictionary, ASS HOLE? Do you have so little respect for yourself that you don't care how others see you - as an illiterate slob.
"However, regardless of who, regardless of why and regardless of what, the rules have always been the same. The content of the posting was always the issue. We attacked the content of the posting and not the character of the poster."
steve... i have taken some of your words from your curtain call x 23 original posting... frankly in my mind, this has been more of an issue between us than my attempts at humor...
you have been personally attacked over the last couple of weeks by a few posters... i didn't like seeing that... i also didn't like the times when i felt you violated the standards of behavior here, as you described them here in the beginning quote, in your own postings...
we all have feelings...you can never tell how someone will react to words against them, no matter how "innocently" or "righteously" they were made... i am concerned about people's feelings, and as much as i may get pissed off by things i read here, i often try to make my displeasure known in a furtive way...(you'll excuse my use of a word that you've used which until i looked it up, i didn't think existed)...
i have gathered that you have enjoyed participating in the discourse here at subtalk... once again, i am sorry if your feelings about my postings have been part of your questioning of whether to stay here... you have spoken that there is a real personal issue between us, and you have left it to me to explain that to others here at subtalk... i think you are referring to a series of e-mails when i questioned a series of your posts about an incident that involved a worker in the subways... i think that was the source of "personal" differences between us... i really do not want to open that issue up again, as my concerns at the time involved the risks of discussing that whole incident here at subtalk...
some people have suggested the use of the killfile in dealing with heypaul, and i would second that, especially since humor is a really important part of me...
again, i think your words that i have quoted at the beginning of this post, are an excellent guideline for helping to keep the discourse here at a subtalk at a respectful level... i will try to honor those guidelines, and i hope others will to...
Many comedians bomb. Part of being a comic is having the chutzpah to stand up and tell a joke and face no laughter. My opinion of your comedic skills should not bother you. It was just my expression of the content as posted here. Just as if you posted an idea to run the Q to the Bronx and the D to Queens. Had I said the idea is stupid you'd be equally hurt. Perhaps that was the intent in my post - I'm not much on introspection these days. However, what really got my hackles up was the innundation of the follow-ups posts by a few other subtalkers who continued on with the joke but lacked even your level of comedic talent. At that point, the whole thing became too much.
The real oddity of this whole episode is that of the (now 34) personal E-mails I have received and of all the follow-up posts on this subject, it appears that you are the only one so far to understand the point of my anger.
I'd like to end this thread and - at least to the point that I can maintain my self control, back off from active participation in subtalk, at least for a while. Anger takes too uch energy and energy is a rare commodity these days
i must say that i was moved by your last words...
first, a few words about myself ( to be expected of a narcissist )... i guess i am more of a sam levinson kind of comedian... for those who don't go back 30 or 40 years, sam levinson was a jewish comedian who told stories about growing up in his family... the stories reflected the lives and hopes of his parents and brothers and sisters... and they would always have a funny aspect to them... that part is not where i am like him... but when he told the stories he was always laughing.... he enjoyed the stories and the memories... frankly, when i am putting up a post here at subtalk, there is quite often a smile on my face... i get a kick out of some of the screwy connections i'll weave between people and things... i've had a few people tell me i ought to do stand-up, but it would be terrifying plus i don't really want to be dependent on making people laugh... i find myself funny both in words and in the sorry way i lead my life... that's the audience i play to...
i'm reminded of some comedian imitating ed koch on his radio call in show ... he went on and on like the former mayor for about 10 minutes, then said "enough of my talking about myself"... now i will take some phone calls and "tell me what you think of me"
it is very ironic that you find that i alone so far seem to have understood your pain... perhaps it is time for us to get an act together... maybe we could start small... maybe do a brief commentary on transit transit each month, sort of playing off of each other like shields and gigot(sp) on the news hour on pbs... a weird thought???
subtalk is a very unique place... it is our interest in subways, buses, railroads, trolleys, and all forms of mass transit that bring us here... but that need not be the sole focus of our being here... we may also become aware of "our better selves" and observe ourselves and others struggle to realize that better nature... ( if my room wasn't such a pigsty, i would have been able to get the exact lincoln quote, as i have found that he often has some very healing words )
of course, all of this post is just words... and at times i can string together some high sounding words that may make it appear that i am very calm and wise... do not be fooled by my words... there is a tremendous amount of anger bubbling in my head also... which did not originate here either...
i guess i am more of a sam levinson kind of comedian
Sam levinson was a teacher in the NYC School System - Tilden or Midwood. I believe he taught a foreign language.
As for the rest - let me reflect on it after some time has passed. My plate at work is suddenly very full.
i only found two sites with info about sam levenson
one site just gave a thought of his: Mental illness is inherited... we get it from our kids
and this from a site about audrey hepburn
Beauty From Within
The following poem, written by Sam Levenson, a well-known New York teacher/comedian in the 50s was very special to Audrey. Audrey, one of the most alluring women in the world, defined what beauty meant to her through this poem.
For attractive lips, speak words of kindness.
For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people.
For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry.
For beautiful hair, let a child run his fingers through it once a day.
For poise, walk with the knowledge that you'll never walk alone.
We leave you a tradition with a future.
The tender loving care of human beings will never become obsolete.
People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed.
Never throw anybody out.
Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm.
As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands, one for helping yourself, the other for helping others.
Your 'good-ole-days' are ahead of you. May you have many of them.
"my plate at work is suddenly very full"...
hey, even managers are entitled to a meal break, but don't pile the food on too high... there's a lot of work to be done....
heypaul, that was very deep. Thanks for the nice (and serious) posting for a change.
I think everyone here can say that not ALL of your postings are asinine.
Doug aka BMTman
Ok, I'm not the best speller so I'm an ass hole? Why would I want to waste a good deal of my time to look up words that would go into a post for someone like you to read. You're simply not worth the effort. Since when was I offering my "insight" into the simpsons. My insult of you took on a completely different meaning if you knew the context in which it came from. You didn't, I tried to appoligise, you yelled at me. What is your big NCYTA insight anyway? Management is always right? Unhappy workers are easier to control? Furthermore your little bet is bunk because incase you forgot, you already left. Leave or stay, I don't care. Just make a big deal about leaving and then keep popping back.
BTW if you want to know what a real jerk is, it is somebody who attacks and insults another person who's only goal in life it to put a smile on the lips of others.
* mawrter is how they spell it at Bryn Mawr college out on the main line
"I'm an ass hole?"
Absolutely Mike - do I need to say it again?.
And as far as unhappy employees are concerned, I'd invite you to my shop to see what a properly operated facility is like but I'm afraid that your knuckles dragging on the ground would scrape the paint off the shop floor.
Perhaps some of the others on subtalk, who have been here, would like to tell you about morale in my shop.
You paint the shop floor? What's the point of that?
-Hank
A painted concrete shop floor generates less dust and is easier to clean. MUCH EASIER!!!
Not to say you can find somthing if you drop it and it happens to be very small...
What is your seceret? Robot workers or cat-o-9 tails?
Here, if you want to prove to me that you are a good manager (if such a creature exists) honestly answer these 2 questions.
1. What would you do if you saw a Dilbert cartoon hanging on the shop wall in a non-critical place.
2. Do/would you encourage the practice of holsters trailing through switches? (answer N/A if its not your job.)
Be honest.
Do/would you encourage the practice of holsters trailing through switches?
I don't believe in holsters for trailing point moves. Best
to keep the pistol in your hand in case there's trouble.
No, seriously, what are you talking about?!
A holster is the guy who moves the subway cars about the shop complex. They do not have to be certified engineers. Training through a switch is where you run through a switch set against you. The rigid axle of the train will push the switch points into correct alignment. Sometimes this is alowed, other times it is not. I have heard several stories of managers trying to save time in rail yards by telling engineers to trail through switches not normally trained through. They are often surprised by a spiked or otherwise non-trailable switch, but by that time the cars are on the ground and switch has been destroyed.
Hostlers and holsters;
train through a turnout or trail through a turnout;
Correct spelling can lessen confusion.
Especially when that mispelling makes it a completely different word with a different meaning!
-Hank
I knew what you meant but I wanted to see if you caught the
subtle distinction between holsters (where you keep a sidearm,
flashlight, ticket punch, etc.) and hostlers, who are yard car
movers.
Spring switches and variable switches are trailable. Most electric
or air switches are not, although some machines can be set up for
trailable operation. Most hand-throw switches without a spring
rod are not trailable but have an emergency release which will allow
the train to push the points over, just not too many times before
the switch mechanism will break.
Your question was originally to Train Dude and is not relevant to
New York City Subway yard practice. While there is the odd hand-
throw switch and even a couple of spring switches, most of the
yard switches are power-operated and are not trailable. They are
tower-controlled and protected with dwarf signals. "Engine Brake"
has spent a lot of time in the yards and I'm sure he could tell you
more. Also, not that you probably care, but Train Dude is a shop
superintendent, not a yardmaster. His job does not normally involve
giving instructions for the movement of equipment in the yard.
We had those variable switches in Laurel Yard on Montana Rail Link, which was formerly BN, ex NP trackage. A lot of guys ran them as a matter of habit but it was againt the rules to do so. As we didn't have a switchman riding the engine to line us out [modern reduced crews] I admit I ran some myself to save time and the trouble of restarting a heavy cut. After I got a letter for trying to do them a favor and not reporting flat spots so I could get their work done [but they got too bad thanks to my good intentions] I stopped the move, climbed out of the cab and lined myself out all the time. To confirm another post I never encountered power switches that were sprung or variable.
Some quick points. At no time is a non certified person to move locomoives on a federally regulated railroad. A HOSTLER is reqired by such federal law (part 49, CFR) to have at a minimum of a class two licence. Class one is the full engineer. Two being a hostler of engines only no cars allowed. This class of licence exists to save the roads money through reduced training requirements. Depending on the presence of a union at that particular road and it's contract there may or may not be class two engineers present. New Jersey Transit has them, LIRR does not, the BLE mandates all engineers be fully (class 1) certified. Class three is a student and four the DSLE. The instructor/supervisory licence. Holders of that certificate can pretty much get a job anywhere in America.
Now for a second point. The Train Dude happens to to be a fine manager. His outstanding quality is that he actually knows what he's doing. That sets him apart from so many of the other managers here at the Transit Authority. While his actual management style does tend to be abrasive, I've found through both observation and conversation, he's respected. The car inspectors in his shop know that if they meet the standard he will too. If you are a jerk off on the other hand he can be ruthless as well. I can respect that becasue as an employee you know exactly where you stand with him, and as a union rep it makes it difficult to put one over on the guy but if your member if a jerk off like I said...
Sure the guy takes management's side on a lot of issues. But he will also admit when he's made an error or if he disagrees with the party line. I don't agree with him on many issues. But we're both railfans and we have a great time at it. There's no reason for name calling.
Now I'm totally confused. Professor Brodzinski says I'm too people oriented and you say I'm abrasive. Anyway thanks for the kind words. And if I can return the compliment:
As I've said here before (just not recently) I wish my Car Inspectors had the grasp of the system that you do. I'm quite sure that it's that comprehension of the entire system that accounts for very few of your trains going out of service. You simply know what you are doing and you play it square.
I don't know about the Proffesor, but I know from seeing, you don't suffer fools easily. I remember some C.I. trying to get over on you with an excuse about needing batteries for his multimeter. Hahahaha, no dice.
Ah,the perfect example of the 'halo effect'. A person makes an indelible judgement of another person based on one act and for ever more, that is how the person is perceived. Unfortunately transit is full of victims and benificiaries of the halo effect. Say the right thing once in a hundred times. That one time the head of the department hears you and bingo - General Superintendent. It works equally the other way too.
I had forgotten about that battery incident, hahahaha. That particular person became a supervisor recently and I'd really relish him coming to work for me.
That is where you keep your "9" in... now 9mm or R9 I don't know.
Mike, I really wanted to let your question pass un-acknowledged but being responsive here seems to be more addictive than I ever imagined. However, this will be my final word on this subject - my management style. This site is not about that.
In order to understand what motivates employees (and I'm sure there will be a lot of people reading this that will say I'm full of crap) you have to understand the principles of motivation. First you must accept that money is not a motivator. If you believe it is, then you will never succeed. Then you have to understand one of the current models of motivation. I specifically subscribe to "Maslow's Heirarchy of Need". Interesting but the basis of motivation according to maslow, is to meet your employee's hygiene needs first. A clean facility (painted floors), well lit locker room, A/C in the lunchroom etc. Once you meet the hygiene needs you can continue up Maslow's pyramid to the top. I'll ask you, what do you think is on the top of Maslow's Heirachy? You can even look it up. There's no cheating if you learn something in the process. Then once you've mastered Maslow, you can start to deal with the realities of managing in a civil service environment. Not the same as private industry. Then trip over your own mistakes for 4-5 years and if you really pay attention to your errors, you find you don't need robots or whips.
As to your two questions - if you don't mind, I'll pass. While those questions may be significant to you, I don't know their relevance to actually predicting how successful a manager will be. I'd be foolish if I assumed that they could lend any insight into my managerial style without some substantiation. However, I will give you this bit of insight into me, personally. I took a 6 course program (in Transportation management)at John Jay College of Criminal Justice recently. (Six A's for those who really care) The last course was called "Organizational Behavior" taught by Professor Fred Brodzynski. A small part of the course involved 2 self evaluation tests that were designed to specifically indicate our individual managerial styles. To my suprise, both tests showed that I was too people oriented and not goal oriented enough. Not necessarilly a trait that I like but considering that I do strictly interpret the CBA and rules in my day to day operation, I'm sure that my persona changes somewhat from the classroom to the shop floor.
Now, I think i've said all that I care to say about my managerial style or anyone's perception of it. Frankly, I let my employees speak for me, by their actions [as they do, every day].
The first question was to see if you were a jerk/control freak on the job. The second question was to see if you were one of those managers who tries to save time by taking shortcuts that just usually end up in SNAFU's. to your pyramid question i would guess that either money or having a manager they can get along with is ot the top. For me money would be the second thing on the ladder after adequate free time. If the workplace was all crappy I would feel entitled to act snide and condecending all day which can be quite fun. BTW from what I've heard i don't think employees like being paid with intangible benifits.
hey mike... although one can get off on a negative work or living environment, there is a price to pay for that... having to live there and spend your life there...
if i remember my abraham maslow, high up on the scale was a feeling of competence or achievement...
if a shop or a business or your own business can give the feeling of pride and accomplishment and competence in the people who are doing the work, this makes for a wonderfully healthy working life... does it happen in a society like ours where more tangible measures of success are used?... i hope so...
i was just reading something i read in the paper to a friend of mine and it sounds so good that i'll just further elevate this post and all of my fellow subtalkers lives with it :-)
there is a zen buddhist saying that goes something like:
the real master in the art of living makes little distinction between his art and his leisure... he simply pursues his vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing... to him he is always doing both....
Well I think that a sence of accomplishment wouldn't be too hard to get in a locomotive shop. Every time you fix something you have a tangible accomplishment. Keeping Budd cars running for 40 years is an accomplishment. reconsitiuting a REDBIRD after a rainstorm is an accomplishment. If you like working on machines a locomotive shop would be a great place to work. The WORST place for accomplishment is the Post Office. The mail just keeps comming and comming. Once you deliver it there is more to replace what you deliver. You are stuck on a never ending cycle with no beginning and no end. That's why so many postal guys go insane.
Thank you, Dr. Fraud.
-Hank
(Pun intended)
"The WORST place for accomplishment is the Post Office. The mail just keeps comming and comming. Once you deliver it there is more to replace what you deliver. You are stuck on a never ending cycle with no beginning and no end. That's why so many postal guys go insane."
it depends on how you use the word "accomplishment"... if you think of accomplishing your mission in life, or perhaps doing your days work well, well you can get a sense of accomplishment doing anything... in some ways, it isn't really the nature of the work, as much as the mindset that the worker brings to the workplace...
your description of the never ending process could be applied to the subway... motorman and conductors are involved in a never ending process, which in your thinking might lead to mass murder too... however, they are doing a job, and a vital job, of moving millions of people around the city every day...
if you haven't read albert camus's "the myth of sisythus", maybe you should... i'm not sure what relevance it has, but maybe it will keep you occupied for a while :-)
if i remember my abraham maslow, high up on the scale was a feeling of competence or achievement... If a shop or a business or your own business can give the feeling of pride and accomplishment and competence in the people who are doing the work, this makes for a wonderfully healthy working life...
Actually, I am not sure if it was Maslow or one of his decipals that coined it but the term I like is "Self Actualization" or as the army slogan goes, "Be all that you can be."
Well, here we go again.
"The first question was to see if you were a jerk/control freak on the job"
The NYCT has a policy for everything. This includes proper format for bulletin boards. It also has a policy about posting unauthorized material. Hence, my answer to this question would be tempered by the policy, where and what. My actions might not be totally consistent with my true feelings so what's the point?
Well a cool boss would let it slide even if there was a policy about it because a good manager would know that ripping it down would only serve to hurt morale and make workers snide and condescending.
>>> Well a cool boss would let it slide even if there was a policy about it because a good manager would know that ripping it down would only serve to hurt morale and make workers snide and condescending. <<<
Mike;
It is nice to see that your knowledge of management theory so closely correlates with your posting etiquette.
Tom
I love to discuss labor relations issues. Mike, I say this with no malicious intent, but you have a very naive attitude with respect to managing in a medium to large company. Companies post policies to protect the organization and its employees. The NYCT policy instruction manual fills (2) 6" binders. I am hired to manage. I am hired to accomplish certain goals within the framework of the collective bargaining agreement, the rules and regulations of the organization and while following all of the policies of the organization. This is what I am expected to do.
I like to use the example of the collective bargaining agreement when dealing with the TWU. Take for example summer vacations. The CBA limits to 16% of any work-group, the number of employees who can be on vacation at any time. Now, I can exceed that quota and be a cool boss. However, then I run excess overtime and am not doing my job fully.
On the other hand, the shop chairman will come to me and ask for just one additional person to be granted vacation. He knows that I can do it. However I remind him of the 16% provision of the contract. I them will usually ask him which other provisions of the contract he wants me to dis-regard. Does he want me to dis-regard the mandatory lunch-break? Does he want me to arbitrarilly eliminate labor Day as a paid holiday?
The point is that every policy, every rule and every clause of the CBA should be given equal weight. If you weaken one, you weaken all and you weaken the organization. Do I bend it some time? We all do! But don't expect me to say that as a matter of routine, I disregard policies I chose not to enforce for the sake of being cool. My employees appreciate consistency - not cool.
Mike (and others), During my dinner break tonight (working nights tonight)I attempted to answer the question posed by you (mike) in true train dude style - just the facts - ma'am, just the facts. I thought it was a pretty honest answer. After posting it, I went back to work but had a sense that it was not right. When I got back here, I logged back on and found what was bothering me. The Cookie on my computer was wrong. Instead of train dude, the posting was under subgirl. Apparently no one else had caught this but that was the name on my posting. The answer was from me and not from subgirl.
Apparently, one of my cohorts had posted at least one message to me under the subgirl handle. Two things should be noted here. I'm not sure where the original posting was going to lead but I pre-empted it. I'm also not sure which one of my 'partners' is subgirl but I can assure you that he is probably not female. Oh, one other thing, just to show that I have a sense of humor too, I've left a suprise in the desk of the most likely suspect.
The train dude has a sense of humor too.
i suppose you're wondering why i called this meeting?
almost six months to the day when someone posted, using my handle, an invitation to a walking tour of the remnants of the manhattan beach lirr, we have had an incident last night that involved the planting of an unauthorized cookie in the posting of train dude's answer to jersey mike...
kay... now any of you gentlemen have an explanation for this new imposter?...
i have been sitting up all night and have proved with geometric logic, that someone has made a duplicate key to the cookie and handle locker... unauthorized use of other people's cookies on a message board is serious business...
as of now, 0617, gentlemen you are all appointed a board of investigation to find out who is responsible for this misuse of cookies... i expect a full report at 0800... don't stand there, get on the ball, we ought to have a little fun for a change now that we have some detective work to do....
Since this is the second time password saving has proved to be a problem, is it possible to add a "Save Password" checkbox? If one is not to check this box, the password would be discarded from the cookie. If checked, the password would be saved and so would the state of the check.
For safety, the checkbox by default would not be checked.
I have noticed that if you (with Netscape) use the view by source (right click on page) see all the information about the page, including the user's password. This is VERY disturbing, as it means that everybody's password is visible to anyone on this board that wants it.
VERY SCARY
This post is being sent to Dave Pirmann by e-mail, as perhaps he can correct this "feature".
It works like that under IE, too. But no matter whose post I look at, I always see my password in there. I don't see the password of the poster. So I guess this would mean that the display of the password through "view, source" could be seen by others sharing the same computer and thus "lifted" that way.
Unless I've missed something?
--Mark
What are you talking about?
You can see *your own* password in the view source because the cookie
fills in the box for you. It's only a risk if you let other people use your computer, or are using a public PC and accepting cookies.
I don't see where you can see *other people's* passwords in a view source. I don't see *your* password in your post when I view source, I see *mine* (in the form for following up that is attached to every post you read).
-Dave
I also noticed that if you typot your user name or pw you get an error page listing what you typed including the pw you used in non ***** form. I know that the possibility of someone looking over my shoulder to skim off my Subtalk pw is very slim, bit it is a security hole.
I think that could be arranged but it will take some time to revise the code. However the problem is not actually limited to this board. I suspect I could do a lot of damage if I had access to your cookie file (like, shall we say, One Click Ordering on Amazon? I don't know how that works exactly but it certainly doesn't require I type in a password.)
The real solution is-- if you don't want people poking around in your stuff, don't let them on your PC. Or at least use NT that has some semblance of security.
-Dave
I don't let anybody use my computer, but some people use public terminals or want to post from other people's computers.
In the case of public terminals, people can't go into the settings to delete cookies.
I still want to know what happened to the strawberries, USS Caine.
Don't you know, Ed, the mess boys ate the strawberries.
[The Cookie on my computer was wrong.]
Was that a chocolate chip or Oatmeal and raisin cookie?
:-)
Rim shot! Peanut butter, perhaps?
It was NOT a COOKIE - it was a FRUIT NEWTON! :o>
(((wayne)))
Are you trying to imply that the Cookie was a mere FigNewton of my imagination???
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, the cookie just stores whatever you last used to post with. In case anyone's thinking that it's cookies at fault here, it's unlikely that anyone tampered with the cookie itself.
the plot thickens... i am troubled by a lack of solution to this puzzle... ( i say this, as i meticulously spread cream cheese on a small piece of toast )... how did the "subgirl" cookie get on train dude's plate?... i know he was complaining the other day that his plate has been very full lately... could this be another worker's cookie?
and dougie... why were you inquiring about the type of cookie?... i don't think it was a coincidence you mentioned oatmeal raisin, as i am very fond of pepperidge farm's soft baked oatmeal raisin cookies?... were you trying to incriminate me in this, especially since i was very personally involved in the last major case of impersonation here...you know if i wasn't surrounded by a crew of disloyal officers, i wouldn't have to stoop to these criminal acts to gain attenton....uhhhhhh, i think i may have just gotten carried away...
Yes, my mention of oatmeal raisin was intentional...
Doug aka BMTman
Dave,
perhaps I used the wrong terminology. The indication was that someone used my computer to post a message on subtalk (2nd time). This time, whoever it was did not take the stored info out of the handle & password fields. When i post, I rarely check this because my computer is (usually) protected [although I carelessly left it running over night]. The problem on my computer is now corrected, permanently (i think). Subgirl will never be able to access it again. As for subgirl - I have an idea who it is. What you do about him is up to you.......
Ok, so that message from subgirl was from you. I was all excited that we finally had a female poster. He/she/it had posted another message and I was tempted to point out this amazing subtalk first. What other subtalker would have access to your PC if you don't mind me asking? Are you like posting from work or have you gotten family members interested in railfanning.
Mike, the minutia of my cyber-life shouldn't be all that interesting. The posting, in all likelihood would have gone unnoticed if I hadn't called it to everyone's attention. I did so just so you'd understand that the subject posting was from me and not subgirl. This thread has already taken on too much of a life beyond it's actual importance. It is a question of the security of my PC and my carelessness. If anyone was affected by it, other than Dave, I appologize for my carelessness. The situation has been corrected. Can we move on?
The question about female posters has come up here several times. Each time we reach the concensus that the sex of the poster is not significant. However, if you pay attention you will find that we have many female posters. I know of 2 college students, a train operator, a station agent and a porn star who post here on a regular or semi-regular basis. There are many others too. Just pay attention but remember, most want to discuss trains or they'd be elsewhere. BTW: Don't ask your next obvious question because I won't answer it.
Fine, I won't ask you who the porn star is, it you didn't want people to ask/know you shouldn't have brought it up.
I would only want to congradulate the female subtalkers for breaking down the barrier in this male dominated hobby. They sould be publically recognized for bring a fresh perspective to our little community.
If the subgirl thing was a prank (not a misunderstanding) I must admit that it was pretty clever. All of my friends think that railfanning is so boring they wouldn't come near SubTalk even for the prupose of a prank.
[However, if you pay attention you will find that we have many female posters. I know of 2 college students, a train operator, a station agent and a porn star who post here on a regular or semi-regular basis.]
Having a porn star who also is a railfan is sort of like having a Catholic nun who also is an avid skateboarder - from a strictly practical standpoint, it is within the realm of possibility, but it nevertheless has to be regarded as unlikely in the extreme.
I could take a guess: it would be a famous porn star who lives near the NY Transit Museum (I prefer not to mention her name for the sake of her privacy).
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, since there was a brief private correspondence, I was able to confirm with a fair degree of certainty that the poster was who she claimed to be.
[- from a strictly practical standpoint, it is within the realm of possibility, but it nevertheless has to be regarded as unlikely in the extreme.]
Why? I don't understand why there should be any correlation. positive or negative, between porn star and subfan. Porn stars are people, just as many railfans are.
A Porn star railfan -- Why not -- Bet she could come up with some saucy foamer videos. :~>
[The question about female posters has come up here several times ...
There are many ...]
This is not something new for us long time posters. BTW, we've just added a female to the 3/4 Ton Crew at Shoreline/Branford ... welcome Doris ... and she's not the only female there either. I think it was the night ride in Lo-V a couple of weeks ago that hooked her. Nothing like a bunch of sweaty guys at a open storm door to make you want to strip off paint from a Red Bird ;-)
Mr t
Thurston, you forgot to point out that one of our fellow SubTalkers, David Shanske, has now joined the ranks of that very elite group at BERA: Trolley Operator!
David lucked out in that he was able to take his written and road test the same day. He passed both with flying colors, and now gets to have his chops busted by dispatch like the rest of us! ;-)
Congratulations to Dave!
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, he's one of the magificant seven qualified operators in the 3/4 Ton Crew, 5 this year, Ding Ding or as our friend from Bean Town (who's here on the radio today) likes to say ... Buzz Buzz.
Mr t__:^)
Actally, Mr. t_:^), one LONG BUZZZZZZZ for you today!!
I was on radio from 5-7am only from my house in Boston. The magic of radio. I was on the 7:45 MBTA commuter train from Mishawum to North Station as usual to get to the "day job." Just a little groggy, that's all!
ding ding back at ya!
Well, unless you want me to go back and delete the message (I'd have to go figure out which one it was after all this) I'm not going to do anything to him unless I figure out he's got more than one handle. Otherwise, I don't really care that a person's nickname is gender-bent...
-Dave
Thanks Dave but rest assured that his sense of humor is no match for mine.
As someone who has been a frequent reader but only an occasional poster here on SubTalk, I would just like to add my voice to those asking the Train Dude to stick around. While I realize his presence here is "unofficial", he certainly seems to be the most reliable "inside" TA source posting here. It would be a shame to lose that as a result of differing sensitivities or opinions about irrelevant issues.
As for Heypaul's humor, the thing that bothers me most about it has got to be the constant jokes on the subject of mental illness. Anyone who has had to deal in any way with issues relating to this subject knows it is no laughing matter. The fake news stories are just plain dumb, I don't find them offensive, but neither do I find them funny.
QUESTION:
Why such a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE numerical
leap in the IRT contracts between the
(r-62 & r-142)... i/e why can't the
142's water themselves down and
take an "r-70" billing?? Or any other
number.. why such a HUUUUUUUUUGE
numerical leap between r-62 and r-142?
After all, the redbird car club will tell
ya, them 142s aint really that special..
Contract numbers refer to OTHER EQUIPMENT.
You'd know that if you visited other parts of the site.
South Ferry, every thing the TA buys is an R-Contract and is given a contract number. The TA hasn't bought any subway cars between 1984 (R62/R62A) till 1997. That's an 11 year difference. The TA does buy things in between. Here's a R-Contract list from Joe Kormans's site...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
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You were so busy putting graphics in your post, you forgot all about the R68/68A, and that's part of your handle!
The R68/68A were ordered in 1986-7 (most of the 68A's bear 1988 (1987?) on the builders plates). R110A/110B were the design contracts for the new tech trains, whose actual contract numbers are R130 and R131. Don't forget the work motors from KAW, R127 and R134. Various other equipment such as cranes, hoppers, and even roll signs have been covered by 'R' contracts.
Initially, the 'R' was for 'Revenue', but has come to be used on any contract affecting rolling stock, no matter the use. In fact, contract R1 was for the original IND cars, and R2 was trucks for those cars. After the R4/5 contract, the trucks were included in the main contract.
-Hank
Oh no! Well, the R68/R68As were built from 1986 till 1989. The builder plates on the R68As have 1988 and 1989.
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Mmmmmmmmaybe a lil re-wording would do...
The question was NOT does everything have a contract
number; nor was it what do contract numbers refer to.
It was:
Why did the TA assign the 142's the (142) number?
Couldn't they have been assigned r-63 in keeping
with the tradition of linear numericals (i/e
the r-15, r-16, r-17;) notice how the numbers
are in order and not like (r-62, r-12513, r-66454)?
Could linear numerical tradition have been honored
with the 142 series??
No rewording required. I totally understand what you mean. Okay, say the TA orders the R62/R62As. Then the TA has to buy another Track Geometry Car right after. The TA will use R63 because it is the next unused contract number. 142 was selected as the contract probably because it was the next free number. They don't reserve numbers for subway cars. They just use the next closest one. Dig?
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Not next closest, they go sequentially. As soon as an RFP (Request For Proposals) goes out, the project has a contract number. If they don't buy, they don't buy. They move on to the next contract.
-Hank
Thanks R68A 5200 & Hank for the answers.
Shame that's how it's done.. would be a heck
of a specialty if a unit had been designated
r-100... or r-(any number skipped) in reaching
r-142... at this rate, we'll soon have
r-131516523624643634d... and wait'll someone
omits a random number in that numerical designation..
Via Satellite, from Champaign, IL.
i had been quite happy with the get together last saturday over my apartment until i looked underneath my bed... i usually check under there once or twice a week to see if the dust has piled up to the mattress level yet... well last night i checked and was horrified to find a large seed pod... up till then i really didn't mind that people had left soda cups all over the house, since i couldn't tell them from the ones that i had previously left... i didn't mind that someone had left his glasses and key chain... however, leaving a seed pod, is down right sinister... fortunately it had not germinated... i pulled it out to see if i could identify who the perpetrator of this attempt on my persona... i was surprised to find a brass builder's plate on which was inscribed:
rodney dangerfield metapod
shell grown in outerspace
genetically modified in cc repair shops 2000
i am trying to convince the authorities to contact the fbi, however in their eyes i have been discredited by my recent fears that the current presidential and vice-presidential candidates are holographic images...
Paul,
Little hint: either get better writers, or stop the humor attempts.
18% of the time they are really funny. If you are paying, the money is being wasted.
I thought that was funny. It made me chuckle out loud.
You need to get better writers as well, your money is currently being wasted, and Train Dude is 100% correct in his opinion of you.
The extended inhospitable beach weather last week inspired another more weekday railfanning. On Wednesday the 2nd, I set out super early with the intention of catching the 7:14 AM from Newark Penn Station to High Bridge. I had never been past Somerville on the Raritan line before. Unfortunately, delays on the 'F' from Queens into Manhattan and a temperamental dollar receptacle at the 23rd Street PATH turnstile made it impossible to make it on time.
Instead, I headed to Hoboken to check the progress of the light rail construction. When I emerged from the terminal, the sun was starting to come out a little, so I walked along the new waterfront park which was decorated with large maps showing not-as-yet built parkland and an equally unbuilt HBLR running in and out of the terminal. After a detour around the Stevens Institute campus, which offered some very impressive skyline views, I headed south into Jersey City.
The rail yards force you to walk west on Observer Highway past a very new looking NJT office building, then south under all the terminal approach tracks onto Marin Boulevard and into JC. I could see the beginnings of the light rail overpass over 18th Street just east of the A & P shopping center. Immediately north of 18th, the embryonic rails neatly split east towards the terminal and west along the projected through route towards North Bergen. It looks at least a year away from completion.
Barely escaped with my life crossing the Holland Tunnel approach, technically 12th Street. There was a surprisingly large number of commuter coaches heading into the tunnel, possibly to save New Jersey commuters who work in lower Manhattan having to take the subway downtown from PA. I would suspect these buses probably drop off and pick up around the World Trade Center or Battery Park.
Continued south on Marin Boulevard. Newport Mall seems much closer to the waterfront than the Boulevard, and could not be seen behind a huge network of parking garages. Just south of 6th Street, there appears to be the remnants of an overpass embankment on the Boulevard's west side. If I remember, there was an Erie Lackawanna branch that terminated at Pavonia until about the 1950s. Any remaining traces of a ROW on the east side was obliterated by a Radio Shack.
Further along south, a combination of low-rise projects and expensive looking high rises began to appear. A look down Columbus Drive towards the river revealed a long line of tall office buildings. Several buses discharged huge crowds of people in front of the Grove Street entrance. After Montgomery, it became more gentrified, with more brownstones. Marin ceases to become a through street south of Grand Street, but runs a long distance to the Basin and HBLR ROW.
A brick walkway runs east from Marin along the ROW onto Essex Street. I don't know how local residents can even complain about noise from the light rail, when the sounds of jackhammering obscures anything else. Warren and Washington Streets from Essex south to the Basin resembles Battery Park City, with a few completed high rises (with 'gourmet' delis at ground level) surrounded by dozens more in various stages of construction.
Most of the waterfront paralleling the ROW is blocked off by more construction all the way to Exchange Place, although there is a nice small park (signed as part of Liberty State Park) commemorating the Morris Canal. It's already become popular with early morning joggers and dog walkers. The few inbound HBLR cars that passed me had very few passengers, and it was still only 8:30, well within rush hour.
Every time I see the area around Exchange Place, I can't help but be reminded of Market Street in San Francisco. It must be the waterfront atmosphere, the virtual canyon of office buildings and the presence of light rail cars. (Contrary to TV and movie cliche, no cable cars operate ALONG Market Street, but both lines terminate at it.) I had wanted to light rail down to Liberty Park to see the restored rail terminal, but it was starting to rain again, so I fought my way down the PATH escalators.
Huge crowds were coming off both in and outbound trains, further bolstering credibility that Exchange Place has become a huge employment center. Despite this, I could barely fit on a WTC-bound train at 8:50. It came in on WTC's Track 2, which indicates it originated at Hoboken (unless PATH trains change their Jersey route designation between inbound and outbound runs). If a Hoboken-WTC AM train was that crowded, that shows that not enough people are using the ferry. Maybe the wet weather kept them off. Maybe the two-dollar boat fare versus a buck for PATH. Or does PATH offer a fare discount with its card a la Metrocard? Either way, the ferry does not seem to serving its purpose of relieving crowding on PATH.
I couldn't help but notice how varied the Marin Boulevard signs were. Some just read 'Marin'; other 'L. Marin'; 'L(o)uis Marin'; ad occasionally the full 'Luis Munoz Marin' with the appropriate accents.
Downtown Hoboken had many city street maps which extended south into JC just enough to show 'Henderson Street'. These maps also showed the unbuilt HBLR.
[Huge crowds were coming off both in and outbound trains, further bolstering credibility that Exchange Place has become a huge employment center. Despite this, I could barely fit on a WTC-bound train at 8:50. It came in on WTC's Track 2, which indicates it originated at Hoboken (unless PATH trains change their Jersey route designation between inbound and outbound runs). If a Hoboken-WTC AM train was that crowded, that shows that not enough people are using the ferry. Maybe the wet weather kept them off. Maybe the two-dollar boat fare versus a buck for PATH. Or does PATH offer a fare discount with its card a la Metrocard? Either way, the ferry does not seem to serving its purpose of relieving crowding on PATH.]
I don't believe that the ferries ever were intended to relieve the crowding on PATH to any significant extent. Their capacity isn't large enough and the docks (on both the New Jersey and Manhattan ends) are less conveniently located. I've viewed the ferries as offering a more pleasant and scenic alternative, especially in nice weather - which, of course, might explain why they weren't crowded on the day of your waterfront walk.
How is the area around Newport Centre? Did you see the mall itself?
I'm thinking of going there.
Walking from the PATH to the mall, you walk through Newport [Centre?] Tower and then into an enclosed elevated pedestrian walkway that goes right over the tracks and future station area for HBLRT. If you want to see it from ground level, instead of going through the office tower, use the ground-level walkway (without doors) that goes through the building just to the left of the office tower entrance.
There seems to be a lot of surburban-style shopping growing around Newport. Stuff with big parking lots, few people walking, and generally difficult access even for the people coming off the PATH or who live a few minutes' walk away in the luxury high-rises-- the mall seems to be about the only shopping with pedestrian-friendly access in the area.
I couldn't help but notice how varied the Marin Boulevard signs were. Some just read 'Marin'; other 'L. Marin'; 'L(o)uis Marin'; ad occasionally the full 'Luis Munoz Marin' with the appropriate accents.
Sounds like another Beverl(e)y Road in the making.
--Mark
Why did you choose to walk down Marin instead of taking the longer way around via Washington Street? That way would be much more interesting. You pass the PATH cassion and emergency exit, the construction of the HBLR overpasses, stations at the Mall, Harsimus, and Harborside, the Pavonia/Newport Path station, the H&M Powerhouse (inactive) and substation (active), etc.... There's also another emergency exit from the tunnels under Washington colocated with the substation.
So what else is in Jersey City?
Compared to all that, Marin is not particularly interesting, at least if you're a railfan. The one thing you do get to see from Marin and not from Washington is the PRR Harsimus Branch freight viaduct. The stonework is still intact but the wide bridges over the streets, and the single track bridge over Newark Ave., were removed in the past 2-3 years.
Also at the corner of Marin (nee-Henderson) and Columbus, from which corner you noted the Grove St. station, was the old H&M/PATH Henderson Yard. Nothing left of it! There's an elementary school there now.
Down Columbus the other way (west), about six blocks from Marin, is the end of the former PRR Exchange Place viaduct. It transitioned from a stone viaduct to steel El at Columbus (nee-Railroad Ave.) and Brunswick Sts. (right where I live, in fact). Just past there under the turnpike is the PATH tunnel portal and a short tunnel for the National Docks Secondary where it passes under the PATH and former PRR lines.
Between Marin and Washington on Columbus is a H&M/PATH tunnel shaft and air exchanging equipment building. Pretty nondescript from the outside but it's mentioned in Coppola's Silver Connections Vol 4.
If you had continued down Observer Highway instead of turning on Marin/Henderson, you'd have come across a freight RR (National Docks Secondary) and a short way along that would have led you to the Bergen Arches, the Erie RR's entryway into Jersey City.
-Dave
Sighted yesterday (8/7) at 4:35pm, ACELA Express engine 652, and cars 48153 + 9641. The consist was facing northbound, and idle on the northbound track (is that track 1?) just outside South Station, where the WYE track (now severed) cuts off from the main line.
That wasn't an 'Express' you saw, that was a regional with a new HHP-8 toaster. The 'Express' sets are numbered in the 2000 range, the HHP-8s in the 650 and up range. Those new locomotives are entering service this month on NE Corridor trains.
-Hank
Thanks for the clarification, Hank. We were moving and nearly by it when I caught a glance, thus the mid-ID.
I thought that the AEM-7's were nicknamed "toasters". If the HHP-8 is truely faster and more powerful they should be called something different like "toaster-ovens" or "microwaves".
AEM-7s are Toasters to west coast and midwest railfans, and Sweedish Meatballs to everyone who actually gets to see them in real life...
When AEM-7's first took over NEC duties from GG1's, I heard them called Mighty Mouse before I heard Toasters.
albeit the origional Sweedish prototype looked like a toaster, EMD did a great job of Americanizing the design. I think that Mighty Mouse would be the best name. Hey, the NJT ALP's could be called Disco Balls. along with the dicso stripes on a silver background they are cvered with reflective tape that lights up with you take a flash picture.
Since HHL-8s have slant noses at each end, can they be called "toasters"?
Chaohwa
Well, you could call them electric jellybeans...
I said toaster because they're small electrics, as are the AEM7. These are just the newest model. I made the comparison because I (meaning Jodi and I) have been adding things to our wedding registry, and have seen the latest in toasters. Then I went home and looked at my Mom's.
-Hank :)
From Railpace magazine ....
MICROSOFT TRAIN SIMULATOR TO DEBUT: Microsoft Corp. today announced that it will release "Microsoft(R) Train Simulator," a software program designed to simulate the thrills of the railways on the personal computer, in the spring of 2001. Attendees at the National Model Railroad Association's (NMRA) National Train Show next week in San Jose, Calif., will be the first to see an early version of the software and experience the excitement and adventure of "Microsoft Train Simulator." "Train Simulator" aims to bring the most true-to-life virtual train experience to the PC. Working in cooperation with six of the world's leading railroads, Microsoft is re-creating hundreds of miles of routes with realistic scenery, equipment and operations. Using multiple camera angles, players can take on the role of an engineer, passenger or bystander. Lifelike engineer's control panels, scenery and weather; and accurate elevations and terrain data mirror real-world train travel. Player activities can include anything from keeping passenger time schedules while managing unforeseen barriers and negotiating freight through mountain passes in winter storms to navigating some of the world's busiest commuter lines. Players can operate nine different trains, ranging from steam locomotives and modern diesels to high-speed electric "bullet trains," as they travel any of six famous rail routes from around the globe. These routes include both historic and contemporary rail operations. The six railroads included in "Microsoft Train Simulator" are listed below:
Amtrak.
Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway.
The Flying Scotsman Railways
Kyushu Railway Co.
Odakyu Electric Railway.
The Venice-Simplon Orient Express.
The NMRA National Train Show takes place Aug. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center. Attendees can test-drive "Microsoft Train Simulator" at booth 592-594. More information about the train show can be found on the NMRA's Web site at www.nmra.org. Scheduled for broad availability in spring 2001, "Microsoft Train Simulator" will deliver unparalleled realism, enabling PC users to accurately re-create railroading adventures from a desktop. "Microsoft Train Simulator" is being developed in conjunction with United Kingdom-based Kuju Entertainment. More information on Kuju Entertainment is available on the Web at www.kuju.com. More information about "Microsoft Train Simulator" and the participating railroads is available on its official Web site at http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/. (Microsoft via Steve Benkovitz - posted 7/25)
I remember seeing, and taking a picture of Bombardier R142 #6315. Is there a similar set from Kawasaki (7221-7225), and what is planned for these cars?
BTW, 6315 can be found on this page.
Well, I have no clue what you are talking about. But, Bombardier delivered 12 R142s at first. The first 10 were tested on the Dyre Line Express Tracks. The other 2 were for maintainence training and were sent to one of the yards. Kawasaki, as far as I know, sent only 10. The 10 currently running on the 6 Line.
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Kawasaki has a whole yard full of cars just waiting to be delivered.
It's at their plant, just north of the Yonkers Metro-North station. I saw it last week, there must be at least 6 complete 10-car trains (60 cars) waiting there. No, I'm not sure if they are all 100% complete with all interior finishings, but passing by quickly they seemed to be whole.
08/08/2000
"Kawasaki has a whole yard full of cars just waiting to be delivered."
Is that right? What if due to current testing these cars have to be pulled back inside to be modified. Seems they're making them faster than they can test them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like the TA's ready to take them in regardless of anything happening in the system with the test train right now. This is not necessarily a bad thing when one considers the condition of the Redbird Fleet, the TA's wants those new cars in ASAP.
By the way, since Kawasaki is a head of the game with car production, doesn't one think the company is getting rewarded for turning out rolling stock ahead of schedule?
-Stef
They aren't ahead of schedule. Both were originally supposed to be here in February 1999. Then in May, Bombardier said May 1999 and Kawasaki said November 1999. Finally they both arrive in December 1999. Both sets were 10 months late. Wheeww! How much extra money is the TA going to get for these orders?
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As of right now this is what's done
In Serivce:
7211-7220...Kawasaki R142A
6301-6310...Bombardier R142
At 180th Yard:
6311-6330...Bombardier R142
At Yonkers Kawasaki:
7209-7210, 7221-7240...Kawasaki R142A
Hope this helps!
Trevor Logan
Where are the R-110As, right now? I couldn't see them around 180th, are they done modifying it? Is it ready for service?
The R-110A was moved from 239th to 180th for a short while, I was up there friday of last week and the R-110A was no where in sight, it's where about as of right now is unknown.
Trevor
They must be hanging out at 239th St where they spend most of the time in dead storage.
-Stef
08/08/2000
Re: 7209-7210
Hey Trevor, you said something about the above cars that they weren't Bombardier cars but rather Kawasaki. Fresh my failing memory!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, if you remember a while back I snapped pics of two cars on the GWB, they were both 7209 and 7210, as per order they were slated to be Bombardier Car numbers, but when I took a pic of the delivery plaque on the cars, it stated that these were Kawasaki Boys instead, with RED seats at that!
Trevor Lgaon
While i took a ride on #2 line to 242th St. When the train pass Unionport Yard & i saw R142A #7236-#7240 On Track #20. Look like they deliver today from Kawasaki Plant but it have something on the truck with yellow bar that lock the wheel of the truck.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I saw 7231-7240 at UP yesterday. I took a few pictures from the flyover the 5 uses to get to the WPR line from the Dyre line. I was lucky enough to be in a car with the slide down windows to get some clear shots of these two 5-car sets (not a full 10-car train, though. 7235 and 7236 were seperated by a few inches.) They appeared to have pieces of paper taped on the doors where they come together. In all, I got 3 pictures of this train: one of the whole train, one of 7237, and one of 7231.
They are there due to problems. The shoes were incorrectly mounted--too high. New shoes were attached but they were too low. Then they were correctly mounted but spring tension was incorrect and they were ripped off.SOURCE: Train operator at E180
Yikes! Sounds like a problem to me. 7241-7250 have just arrived from Yonkers and is also at Unionport Yard, next to 7231-7240.
-Stef
7231-7240 have been there for several weeks now. I start at East180 1 night each week.
Last week I rode a R142 On the #6 line and when I got on board the train it already left the station and when it was going quick it started giving me dizzy headaches if any of you got on the R142 don't you fell kind of dizzy when it goes guick?
Well, I rode it 2 times. I never had any problems. I do have problems when a R40 speeds northbound out from Prospect Park to 7th Avenue. My ears start having this problem... sorta like the Empire State Building Elevator going top to bottom or when an airplane descends fast. Next time, try chewing some gum.
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Whenever an R68 train enters the 60th street tube, I feel pressure in my ears. The strongest pressure is felt when on an LIRR train after it enters the East River tubes. And my ears hurt then.
I believe these cars have slightly faster acceleration. I only experienced symptoms similar to what you're describling when lying down in the seat while going express from Hunts Point to Parkchester.
I didn't get any headache on the 142 or 142a. The cars that used to give me headaches were the R-10s. I got a very distinctive ache in the back of my head when I rode those trains, so I learned to avoid them. It wasn't just speed, it was something distinctive about the physical vibrations in those cars.
That describes what I get when riding those Kawasakis on the Philly Broad St. Line. I assumed it was because of the incredible loudness of the line. I thought it was just me, but then I noticed that often, no one is talking while on the express runs, perhaps talking encourages the dull ache and passengers must avoid the feeling, or the pain removes one's desire to speak. Of course, they can't avoid it any way other than by taking the local. I found the section between Erie and Olney had it the most. I wouldn't have even noticed it until I concentrated on the noise, vibrations, etc. Now, it does not go unnoticed, no matter how hard I try to ignore it. I guess the cause is partly the speed (60+, i hear).
I hate to admit it but in my days as a motorman The R10 and their R12/14 cousins used to make me VERY sleepy. Something about the way the head end bounced. The R46 with their air springs gave me that problem too. Not good when you're running a train full of passengers. I didn't have that problem with any other equipment.
If speeding trains give you a headache, try to ride R-68's as much as possible. I guarantee that you'll be fine.
08/08/2000
The only headache I'm getting from the R-142's is when I find the time to ride them, I find out they aren't running. I still have yet to ride the Bombardier set.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some C/R'S and T.S.S's have said they had a Headache by the time the train got to Hunts Point. The cause everyone has came up with is the Bright Lights.
I agree with you Pelham Bay Dave I think that I get dizzy when I board the R142 is because of the bright lights also something else. When I get on board I kind of smell perfume or something like thats what got me dizzy.
And those bright lights are a killer when you meet them coming at you in a dark tunnel.
It's most likely fumes from new plastics. There's usually an odor similar to that of a new shower curtain.
-Hank
Last week I saw a set or R32's running on the crosstown line. Was this a one time deal, or is this happening all the time now?
Dave
how long was the train?
It was not possible to count, because of the asbestos boards at Smith/9th. I saw it from the front as we came around the viaduct going north. It started to pull out and was definitely signed for Crosstown.
I once saw a train of R32 cars on the G line. It was a 10-car train.
It did happen before. Usually it is because some R46s assigned to G line went under maintenance or had some mechanical problems to cause equipment shortage. Therefore, an R32 train will supplament the G line.
An R32 G train consists of 10 cars. Someboday at Subtalk asked why it is a 10-car train instead of an eight-car train. I forgot that reason. Maybe somebody will explain it.
Chaohwa
R46 cars are 75 feet long. R32 cars are 60 feet long. A train of ten R32s is the same length as one of eight R46es.
Mark
Yes, but there are 150 extra feet on a 10 car train of R-32s vs. a 6 car train of R-46s. To answer the previous poster, they probably don't snip off the extra cars because either the conductor boards for the shorter trains are positioned for 6 car R-46s, or why bother if the train will be back on the E tomorrow.
08/08/2000
"It did happen before. Usually it is because some R46s assigned to G line went under maintenance or had some mechanical problems to cause equipment shortage. Therefore, an R32 train will supplament the G line. "
Sounds like those good old reliable R-32's came to the rescue. I can't fathom seeing any R-32's being scrapped in the future.
Bill "Newkirk"
What are you talking about? Good old reliable R32s? What happens when a R32 is pulled from the E Line and a R46 fills in? This is hardly about reliability. This is about inspection. Trains at Jamaica Yard get inspected every 10,000 operating miles. You get 22 Trains a day on the instection tracks.
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The reason is that since about half of the G trains get laid up when they cut back to Court Square, you could lay up the R32 to D4 track Union Turnpike station. Approximately four trains are laid up there. If you ride between 75 Ave and Union Turnpike, occassionally you will see an R32 with G or R signs on the side. Those trains will return to E service the next day. If Continental Ave needs an R32 the next day, it will come from Jamaica Yard. Also, eight car R46s appear occassionally on the G. This train is usually an R train originally scheduled to lay up.
Isn't Union Turnpike right near Jamaica Yard anyway? Why lay them up on the road when there's a nice yard nearby, with coffee and warm blankets. Is Jamaica that full?
Excuse my Geography.
Brooklyn-centric, Dave
Jamaica Yard is the largest yard in the system and it is still full. It is so big that trains are laid up on the express tracks between 169 Street on the F Line to 75 Avenue on the E/F Lines. That's in addition to the fleet already in the yard itself.
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I thought Coney Island Yard is the largest yard in the system?
Ooops... I meant to re-phrase it. I meant that Jamaica Yard has one of the largest fleet assigned to it. Not size.
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Doesn't the Coney Island complex has 3 yards - Stillwell Yard (between the B & N trains), Ave X Yard(where F trains lay up between the loop track and the Culver Line) and Coney Island Yard (the tracks that are "encased" within the loop track, and some between the loop track and the N train)? If this is true, than technically Jamaica might be the largest yard.
--Mark
Yeah, it just depends on wheather you count Coney as one complex, or as 3 yards. Either way - It's a wicked big place.
If we are talking car-storage capacity, then Jamaica Yard is by no means the largest yard in car capacity. Storage tracks number from 38 track through 68 track. The old loop track is #26 and also used for storage. 26 track holds approximately 18 R-46s while 41 and 42 will hold about 12 each. All the rest will hold about 10 cars so you can do the math. Installing tracks 1-25 is being held up by environmentalists & "Friends of Willow Lake".
I am not sure about the capacity of the Coney island Complex but it is made up of 3 yards. City yard & Stillwell yard are not even close and I don't think that Coney Island Yard proper is the largest.
It would appear that in car-storage capacity, Concourse yard, with a capacity in excess of 400 cars is the largest. I can't locate the documentation to support this.
From "New York City Transit Authority Twenty Year Capital Needs Assessment 1992-2001" (which came out in 1990):
IRT
Yard/Capacity
E. 180th Street/283
137th Street/100
148th Street/197
239th Street/475
240th Street/165
Jerome/203
Corona/390
Livonia/187
Westchester/446
Total/2,446
IND-BMT (60-foot equivalents)
Yard/Capacity
174th Street/43
207th Street/388
Avenue X/216
Canarsie/162
Coney Island/702
Concourse/373
East New York/174
Fresh Pond/115
Jamaica/352
Pitkin/457
Rockaway Park/102
Stillwell/370
38th Street/236
Total/3,690
So, the three yards making up the Coney Island complex (Avenue X, Coney Island, and Stillwell) together could hold 1,288 60-foot cars as of 1990. I don't believe any yard expansions have been opened in the last 10 years.
David
Whoops! Typo -- make that 2011, not 2001.
David
Dave thanks for the post on car storage capacity at the various yards.One question at the E. 180th yard does the total cars there include Unionport yard?
I gave all the information I had. It's possible Unionport is just another name for E. 180th Street.
David
08/12/2000
"I gave all the information I had. It's possible Unionport is just another name for E. 180th Street."
I believe Unionport and East 180th St. yards are separate. Geographically they are.
Bill "Newkirk"
Your list counts Jerome and Concourse as separate yards. Is that how they are managed, with certain tracks allocated to each division? Train Dude?
-Dave
Jerome and Concourse are seperate yards. Jerome is west of the 4 Line. Concourse is east. They are 2 different yards.
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Oh I see.. I always assumed they were connected but a quick look at the track maps shows that's not the case...
Thanks,
-Dave
10-car trains of R-32s are used on the G because of the conductor board position at each station. IIRC, only the cabs at the blind ends of the R-32s have door controls. Consequently, the conductor's station will be at the fifth and sixth cars, and this location lines up with the boards when a 10-car train pulls up to the 10-car stopping mark.
I hope I explained it right.
The cabs at both ends of R-32s and R-38s have conductor controls, the C conductors stay between the 4th and 5th cars.
That's what I thought. I could be wrong.
Well, an R-32 is 60 ft. long while an R-46 is 75 ft. long. Therefore, 10 R-32's and 8 R-46's equals 600' in length.
I'm a daily commuter and periodic weekend user (though it has been taking quite a chance to use local stops betw. QP & Roosevelt on weekends because of perpetual G.O.s) at Queens Plaza, and I have been seeing R-32s on the crosstown line for months now. I can go weeks without seeing one, though, so I don't know how "permanent" the train is on the line. Can't remember how many cars it had on it either.
I saw one on the G too about two weeks ago. It's nice to see that light green on the rollsign.
:)Andrew
If I remember correctly there are 13 sets of AA cars (even numbers 6208 to 6258) as well as a 2 car AB set 6206 & 6207 which are added up to a standard 4 car unit to make up a 6 car R46 G train. With full sevice on the G being 12 trains, this means that there are 2 spare sets of 2 car pieces. If more than that are not availiable for service, then Jamaica Yard provides 10 car R32's as needed to make full service. Sometimes, you will see an 8 car R46 on the G. This primarily happens during the day if one of those 6 car sets goes bad on the road and has to go to Jamaica Yard. Rather than abandon a G interval, Continental will use a laid up (downstairs at Continental) R train and use it in G service till the switchman bring back another 6 car R46 replacement from the yard and the trains will be re-swapped....... Hope I didn't lose anybody!
Do you need lots of seniority to work a switching job?
Well, a little more than you have, yet even with my 19 1/2 years as a MOTORMAN, I couldn't get one that pays better than working the road. You gotta have a 1 or 2 digit file number and pick on the first morning.
Well I went down to 15/16th Station on PATCO to catch my train home. The train pulled in and I rushed to the railfan window. Well it was just a pig sty with newspaper on the seat, wrappers, drink containers and cigerette packs littering the floor. Well this didn't bother me too badly and I sat down and began to read my SEPTA Metro newspaper. Well were almost to Ferry Ave. when I turned my METRO over and found the cover covered in snot. Upon investigation I found snot smeared all over the front bulkhead of the train, just inches from my legs. Well I was lucky not to get any on myself, but I felt sick for the rest of the trip. Why are people so disgusting?
NOTE: It was not enough to drive me from my railfan window.
Are you sure it was snot?
Well it was much thicker than saliva with a consistancy akin to slug trails.
[Well it was much thicker than saliva with a consistancy akin to slug trails.]
Sounds like it could have been another bodily secretion, but for the sake of decency I won't say anything else.
I don't need that. It had bubbles suspended in it and it did appear wiped, not drooled.
Just to mention it (since this thread IS that disgusting and has already mentioned slug trails and has just mentioned certain other secretions) I was at a party last weekend where we actually watched 4 slugs 'doing it'. It was actually pretty cool, and it explains the slime.
-Hank :)
YECCH, IT'S FOAMER DRIBBLE!!! The railfan who occupied that railfan observation post before you merely had a foamer attack,leaving behind the residue which you noted --- the car cleaners will hose it down.
I'm not sure if anyone would know this, or where to look, but I thought I'd take a shot at some questions I had about the joint service:
1. Was there any regularly scheduled thru service by steel subway cars from Astoria to Times Sq. via the Steinway tubes?
2. Did Second Ave el service serve both lines, or just the Flushing?
3. Did the IRT run local and express service during the rush hours on the Flushing line alongside the BMT shuttles? Or did the shuttle provide the only local service?
4. Was the Astoria line's express track ever used for scheduled express service?
5. Did the BMT suffer in competition with the IRT trains because of the inconvienent transfer at Queensboro Plaza to get to/from the city? How did the competition fare? Did one company make more money than the other? Who benefited the most?
Yep, I know they're obscure, but so manyobscure questions have been answered in great detail before, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
I'm not sure if anyone would know this, or where to look, but I thought I'd take a shot at some questions I had about the joint service:
1. Was there any regularly scheduled thru service by steel subway cars from Astoria to Times Sq. via the Steinway tubes?
YES - the IRT ran Steinway tunnel trains to both Astoria and Flushing
2. Did Second Ave el service serve both lines, or just the Flushing?
Both
3. Did the IRT run local and express service during the rush hours on the Flushing line alongside the BMT shuttles? Or did the shuttle provide the only local service?
IRT ran both - and so did the BMT after 1939
4. Was the Astoria line's express track ever used for scheduled express service?
No
5. Did the BMT suffer in competition with the IRT trains because of the inconvienent transfer at Queensboro Plaza to get to/from the city? How did the competition fare? Did one company make more money than the other? Who benefited the most?
I just wanted to give you a quick answer to your questions for now, but looking at the way the revenue was split - the IRT carried more passengers, and therefore gained the larger share. According to the agreement between the companies revenue was split in proportion to passengers carried by each (don't ask me how they counted who took which service after they passed the fare controls).
Yep, I know they're obscure, but so manyobscure questions have been answered in great detail before, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
>>> 5. Did the BMT suffer in competition with the IRT trains because of the inconvienent transfer at Queensboro Plaza to get to/from the city? <<<
Chris;
As I posted just recently on this thread, there were no inter divisional transfers in Manhattan prior to July 1, 1948, so prior to then, the overriding concern would be where the final destination was rather than if the Queensboro Plaza transfer was inconvenient.
Also, further research, including the picture of the Triplex on the north side of Queensboro Plaza convinces me that you were correct in regard to track assignments at Queensboro Plaza prior to 1949, and my memory was faulty.
One of the things that changed my mind about the track assignments was an article in the NY Times, on May 29, 1949 on page 1 describing the placement of a 40 ton girder which would allow BMT trains from the 60th Street tunnel to use the IRT tracks at Queensboro Plaza. The article indicated that the girder was delivered to the station on three flat cars. My guess is that the only place they could have loaded that girder on three flat cars was the Corona yard.
This same article stated that the then present arrangement required passengers coming from Manhattan on the BMT to climb one flight of stairs to catch a shuttle to Flushing or Astoria. That would imply that the larger BMT trains from Manhattan used the lower platform and the shuttles used the upper platform.
I think the NY Times reporter got it wrong based on the picture of the Triplex and common sense. If the trains from Manhattan were on the upper platform, passengers would either have a cross platform or one flight down trip to get to the shuttle to Astoria or Flushing. Those coming from Queens transferring to a Manhattan bound train (on the lower platform) would also have either a cross platform transfer or one flight down. This makes a lot more sense than having all the transfer passengers going up and down a flight of stairs.
Another NY Times article on October 15, 1949, at page 17 announces that the IRT service to Astoria and the BMT shuttles would end at midnight and through BMT service to Astoria from Manhattan would begin the next day. IRT passenger wanting to go to Astoria and BMT passengers wanting to go to Astoria could make a cross platform transfer at Queensboro Plaza.
That was the end of passenger service on the north platforms.
Tom
As I posted just recently on this thread, there were no inter divisional transfers in Manhattan prior to July 1, 1948, so prior to then, the overriding concern would be where the final destination was rather than if the Queensboro Plaza transfer was inconvenient.
True, but If I wanted to get from 111th Street to Times Sq, I'd be more inclined to take the IRT than a BMT shuttle to Queensboro Plaza, then transfer to a steel subway train.
>>> If I wanted to get from 111th Street to Times Sq, I'd be more inclined to take the IRT than a BMT shuttle <<<
Chris;
You are absolutely right, if you were going to Times Square you would wait on the platform at 111th Street for an IRT train, but if you were going to the Plaza Hotel at 59th Street and Fifth Avenue, or Coney Island, you would wait on the platform for a shuttle and change at Queensboro Plaza. That's why the final destination rather than convenience at Queensboro Plaza is what would control whether one took an IRT train or a BMT shuttle.
BTW if you were going to Coney Island, you would probably change at the BMT Times Square station for an express since it was the Brighten Beach and 4th Avenue locals that went to Queensboro Plaza. If you came to Times Square on the IRT, the change to the BMT would cost an extra nickel fare.
Tom
I don't know the answers, but I'd like to add one more question, which is basically a follow-up to some information that was posted here a couple of weeks ago.
It was mentioned that, for a time, both the IRT and BMT ran shuttles from Ditmars Blvd. to Queensboro Plaza consisting of the same type of cars. I presume that the IRT-run trains stopped at the IRT-only platform at the Plaza, where passengers had the choice of Steinway Tube or 2nd Ave. El service, and that the BMT-run trains stopped at the BMT-only platform, where passengers could change only for BMT service via the 60th St. tube. My question is, how did passengers know which train was which?
Did the trains carry signs identifying themselves as IRT or BMT trains? If there was no way to tell them apart, I imagine there were some upset passengers who arrived at the wrong company's platform at Queensboro Plaza and found themselves having to pay an extra fare to access the line they wanted.
It's these questions which have fascinated me in recent days about this subject. I don't understand why the BMT would agree to such a bizarre service plan, especially since it couldn't use it's wider cars on any part of the line east of Queensboro Plaza. I wonder why the BMT didn't just take over complete control of the Astoria line to begin with, unless the profits made by running the shuttle service out to Flushing actually benefitted the BMT more than just operating to Astoria.
I believe the original agreements were signed before the BRT opted for the wider cars. The wider cars complicated matters. There were several proposals which changed over the years. The original plan was to divide the platforms in half, with two sets of fare controls in each station. This was no longer practical when the IRT started running longer trains. Then an agreement under which the companies divided revenues based upon car-miles travelled. This was re-negotiated and the final agreement called for a split in proportion to passengers carried.
Other proposals, which were never realized included running the BMT trains on a gantlet track. In spite of the disadvantages of the shuttle operation I am sure the BMT was able to attract more passengers (and revenue) to its lines by servicing both Astoria and Flushing than if they had serviced Astoria alone. Also they were able to provide service to the 1939 Fair (although this did not come into play when the agreements were signed).
Actually, the shuttle operation, which had previously been
covered in great depth a few weeks ago, used the northmost
tracks (upper & lower). This way the turn-around moves did
not conflict with thru operations. Free transfer was available
between platforms at QP, except prior to 1923, which was also
prior to the shuttle operations.
The shuttle cars were not the same type. Yes, they were both
"gate cars" with open platforms and retractable gates, although
perhaps the IRT used MUDCs in shuttle service, I don't know.
They might be difficult to distinguish from casual inspection of
a photograph, but I'm sure seasoned commuters knew the difference.
Besides, one could always refer to the name of the company which
was stenciled in big letters on the letterboard (area above the
windows) of these cars.
The only BMT trains to carry the company name on its letterboard were the Q-types. I have seen pictures of BMT gate car shuttles that carried a "BMT Lines" metal sign in front. The BMT also used distinctive destination signs that had "Astoria" and "Flushing" written with a Red Arrow ---> through the letters.
I'm not sure about free transfers being allowed between companies at QP. Can anyone else verify this? There would have been no need for a shuttle if people could simply transfer for free to the IRT at QP.
I'm sorry, you're right. The shuttles were exclusively BMT
and the IRT operated only through service.
The BU cars originally had BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT across
the letterboard. By the time they appeared on the queens
lines, which was also the start of the BMT name, that lettering
was on the way out. I've seen pictures with the steel side
and end signs saying BMT lines in Queens service.
>>> There would have been no need for a shuttle if people could simply transfer for free to the IRT at QP. <<<
The BMT shuttles came to the same platforms as the BMT trains going through the 60th Street tunnel. Therefore if you were coming from Flushing or Astoria and wanted to go through the 60th Street tunnel you would wait for a BMT train so you could make the simple cross platform transfer.
If you wanted to go through the Steinway tunnel, or on the 2nd Ave El. You would wait for an IRT train.
It is true that you could still get to wherever you wanted to go with the free transfer down the stairs, through the mezzanine, and up the other stairs, but BMT passengers going through the 60th Street tunnel preferred getting on a train that stopped at the same platform, and the BMT wanted to accommodate them.
Tom
It is true that you could still get to wherever you wanted to go with the free transfer down the stairs, through the mezzanine, and up the other stairs, but BMT passengers going through the 60th Street tunnel preferred getting on a train that stopped at the same platform, and the BMT wanted to accommodate them.
When the service started, there was no free transfer between the IRT and BMT sides at Queensboro Plaza. My father tells me stories of riding between Brooklyn (BMT) and the Bronx (IRT) and taking a detour via Queens to avoid paying an extra nickel -- and having to go a stop past Queensboro Plaza to do this.
They may have opened up a free transfer in later years, but I doubt it was before 1947 when the fare was raised to 10 cents and transfers between the divisions were established for the first time.
-- Ed Sachs
>>> When the service started, there was no free transfer between the IRT and BMT sides at Queensboro Plaza. My father tells me stories of riding between Brooklyn (BMT) and the Bronx (IRT) and taking a detour via Queens to avoid paying an extra nickel -- and having to go a stop past Queensboro Plaza to do this. <<<
Ed;
What years was your father talking about when he would travel from Brooklyn to the Bronx through Queens? Granted there may have been no free transfer when the IRT and BMT were separate entities, but after the consolidation in 1940 there were plenty of free transfer points between the BMT and IRT. The 1948 Subway map on this site shows numerous transfer points in Manhattan, so it would not be necessary to go through Queens.
BTW, the big 100% fair hike was in 1948.
Tom
What years was your father talking about when he would travel from Brooklyn to the Bronx through Queens?
Probably late 1920s, when he was a teen. My father celebrated his 90th birthday in May.
-- Ed Sachs
>>> when the fare was raised to 10 cents and transfers between the divisions were established for the first time <<<
Ed;
I always thought the free transfers came earlier, but your post caused me to check the New York Times for July 1, 1948, the date the fare went from 5 to 10 cents (I'm slow at taking out the papers). The article included a map showing the new free transfer points and the existing free transfer points. The existing free transfers were intra divisional transfers such as Grand Central on the IRT, except for the one between the IND and BMT at Franklin Ave in Brooklyn. All the inter divisional free transfers in Manhattan and the IND and Flushing line transfer at 74th Street were new. The 1948 subway map on this site is after the fare hike.
The article also mentioned crowds waiting to be the first to pay the new fare, 525 extra policemen on duty for the first day, and tearing down the barriers between the BMT and IRT stations at Times Square and removing two way turnstiles between the stations. Were any of those turnstiles saved for the transit museum?
BTW the article also mentioned two cent transfer machines inside the fare control for transfers to municipal buses (the bus fare was 7 cents) and mentioned that police would be watching to be sure passengers were not purchasing more than one transfer at a time. (Can you imagine being busted for buying an extra two cent transfer?)
What the article did not address was the fare arrangement at Queensboro Plaza. It is not shown as a free transfer point either before or after the fare increase, just both lines entering the same station, but since all the stations beyond Queensboro Plaza could be reached by either division, it would make no sense to have separate fare controls there.
Tom
What the article did not address was the fare arrangement at Queensboro Plaza. It is not shown as a free transfer point either before or after the fare increase, just both lines entering the same station, but since all the stations beyond Queensboro Plaza could be reached by either division, it would make no sense to have separate fare controls there
But the companies pre 1940 could make it as difficult as possible. IIRC several stations past QP on the Flushing line did not allow crossovers between uptown and downtown so a passenger would have to continue well past QP just for the sake of a free transfer. I definitely believe the companies had separate fare controls at QP. Did the city take down these controls upon unification???
One note - for BMT bookkeeping and statistical purposes the Astoria Line was Beebe Ave - Ditmars Blvd and the Flushing line was Rawson St - Main St. QP was reported by itself in the stats.
>>> I definitely believe the companies had separate fare controls at QP. Did the city take down these controls upon unification??? <<<
I agree that when the IRT and BMT were separate companies there were separate fare controls because each company kept its own receipts. The change to one fare control probably took place between 1940 and 1949 when the north platforms were closed. I doubt that it would have been changed immediately upon unification. Inertia would have kept the separate fair controls in place until someone saw an economic advantage to changing it. (Such as reducing the number of change booths, total number of turnstiles, and exit gates, or rest rooms inside of fare control) One would have to look at the mezzanine plans for the station to see how it was arranged with separate fare controls and what changes had to be done to have single fare control.
Change would not be a high priority since anyone going to Astoria or Flushing could use either line, and only those going to Manhattan had to be careful to choose either IRT or BMT, and both lines were well marked.
OTOH, those coming from Manhattan on the BMT and wanting to return to Manhattan on the IRT and vice versa were probably not a large group, and compared to the extra time already taken to save a nickel, the extra time to travel a few stops beyond Queensboro Plaza was negligible, so separate fare controls would not be a deterrence to them, and therefore not a reason to maintain them.
Tom
I have photos of both gate cars and MUDC's in 2nd ave. el service to Queens. More gate cars than MUDC's. IIRC a friend told me they got the MUDC's in Queens service after 6th Ave.(el) closed. Prior to that 6th Ave and 9th had them; I don't know..maybe they were on all lines but that was the story on Queens service.
>>> It was mentioned that, for a time, both the IRT and BMT ran shuttles from Ditmars Blvd. to Queensboro Plaza consisting of the same type of cars <<<
Dan;
Only the BMT ran shuttles between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria. The shuttles met with the wider BMT trains coming through the 60th Street tunnel at Queensboro Plaza.
The confusion is that the BMT was using IRT size cars. Since the stations were the size for IRT cars, the IRT was able to run through service to the rest of their routes and had no need for shuttles.
Tom
Chris;
This was posted in the wrong place
Tom
Here are the original plans for the mezzanine at Queensborough Plaza - enjoy.
See the original plans for the mezzanine at Queensborough Plaza
BMT-Lines.Com
Thanks for the mezzanine drawing of Queensboro Plaza. Now can you or anyone else confirm that the following assumptions are correct:
1. The heavy line running the length of the station in the center is a structural girder rather than a solid wall so there is really only one area designated "Passage" rather than two.
2. The areas marked "T.B." at the ends of the station are the ticket booths because at the time the station was designed they were using paper tickets rather than coins in a turnstile. Once they went to turnstiles the ticket booths became change booths.
3. The areas marked "Chopper" is where the tickets were canceled upon entry and were replaced by turnstiles once the system went to coins.
Provided those assumptions are correct the area marked passage is outside of the fare control zones, and there are clearly separate fare control zones for the north and south sides of the station.
Once consolidation occurred and the fares were all going into the same pocket, converting the station to a single fare control would be very simple. All that is required is putting a fence (probably with exit gates) between the north and south turnstiles at either end of the area marked "passage", and removing the high fences separating the passage and the two mezzanines. The work could be done in one day, without disrupting operations and might not have been reported in the newspapers.
If assumption No. 1 is wrong, and there is a wall down the center of the station, the wall would have to be removed before the other changes could be made, but removal of the wall would not have to occur at the same time as the other changes.
Tom
I finally rode the 142 today (Bombardier) and noticed three things:
1. The interior sign's blinking in and out IS as annoying as I've been told;
2. The 142 was very smooth and fast over the curve S. of E. 180th St.;
3. I spotted the 142A in E. 180th St. Shop, which means (we already knew this) that its clock has been reset, hence the nifty subject of this message.
BTW, any news on the R110A?
That was not a R142A, there are 3 sets of R142s and 1 set of R142A here. The set of 142s you saw were 6321-6330, 6311-6320 are out doing t/o training and well, 6301-6310 in use!
Trevor
If the 142 was out today, it must have been late. Of course, I'm (or anyone else is) not surprised to know this.
Well, I got to ride the shuttle today, and this is what happened.
5:46 PM, boarded at 42nd.
5:50 PM, sat outside 57th, signal didn't clear until N left the local track (?)
5:51 PM, Pull halfway into station, mid-station signal and home signal still red. Shuttle passes going the other way.
5:55 PM, Signal still not clear, people on platform punching doors / windows. C/R says "Partner, it looks like we in the station, Im'a open up." Doors open.
5:57 PM, Mid station signal clears after wrong-railing Q train crosses from our track to the Downtown Express (more on that in adjacent post). We move up to the 6 marker, and open the doors again.
6:05 PM, Home signal still red, the shuttle that passed us when we first entered 57th is heading Northbound on the Southbound track, nearly empty. They pull it in front of us and to 63rd st.
6:06 PM, Rioting ensues, people bang on cab doors, windows, anything, mass exodus from train.
6:07 PM, Home signal clears, mass exodus back to train. Proceed to 63rd w/out incident.
6:20 PM, Leaving 21st on the heels of the train that skipped us, I notice a third shuttle waiting for entrance into 21st.
And, at Roosevelt Island, the T/O pulls up to the 10 marker, gives 2 buzzes and an apology to the C/R for pulling up too far.
At Lexington, we pull up to the 8/4 marker (for some reason the 6 is between 10 and 8/4). Doors open with no complaints from C/R.
At 57th, we again pull up to the 8. After doors don't open:
T/O: Partner, what're you lookin' for?
C/R: A board.
T/O: What?
C/R: A board, we got 6 cars.
The passengers thought this was funny, it probably would have been more so had they know what 'board' he was talking about.
Rest of trip uneventful.
Gee, the radio sounded pretty quiet pertaining to the shuttle. I will even verify if six car equipment is operating over there.
The R46 in the background here is numbered 666, but the photo is dated 1997. Didn't the renumbering take place before then? What's going on here?
Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r110b/r110bext.jpg
Mark, the photo was taken by me prior to 1997. The date indicated is when Dave posted the photo on the site. You can check my database for the date #666 was re-numbered.
BTW - To jerkey mike, I appologize for posting again. I was sure you had the correct answer to the question but wanted to beat you to the punch - dimwit.
I'll change the date on the photo- do you have a rough idea when it *was* taken, prior to the 666's renumbering?
-dave
I don't mean to make extra work for you, Dave, but as long as we're talking about misidentified photos, this one has bugged me for a while:
BU 1207 @ Fresh Pond Yard.
It's mislabeled on its referring page, its JPEG name, and on the photo itself. The BMT-era convertibles were in the 1000, 1100 and 1300 series. This photo is clearly a 1300-series convertible, apparently 1307.
You make it sound like it's maliciously incorrect. I'll fix it, everywhere but in the photo border- that'll have to wait till I rescan it...
-Dave
You make it sound like it's maliciously incorrect.
Well, sorry, I didn't think it was possible to misidentify a photo maliciously, unless it's a picture of the President and a female staffer.
I mentioned this mis-ID some time ago, and since it was never changed, I got the impression that it was believed that "1207" was correct after all.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
And speaking of the 1300 BUs, they were lots of fun to ride on (especially with the panels off in summer), but they were (IMO) fairly ugly, as compared to most other gate cars. No woodwork worth mentioning, and a plain window arrangement.
I wonder how they came to be the last gate cars in operation. I can't believe that the TA much cared whether people were cool in summer or not, especially as the need to maintain the panels and curtains added extra maintenance. Maybe the big "I-beams" necessitated by the convertible feature made them structurally sounder in the TA's view.
Personally I disagree on the ugly, will admit they weren't the best looking. My wild guess is they were the only set of el cars left that were around in sufficient numbers to service the Myrtle Ave. line, likewise the newest. The 1200's with their more logical window arrangements would have been the likely choice but a goodly number of them were taken up for conversion to Q cars and a couple for C's.Age-wise only a year or two older than 1300's. The newest, the 1400's (1907) almost identical to 1200's, were all converted to C or Q types. But none of us who loved the old stuff could look a gift horse in the mouth; we were lucky to have such trains running as late as they did. My guess would be if they used 1200's instead they'd have needed 2 types of cars to provide the service.
Sorry, perhaps it never came up to my attention. If you just posted it here on SubTalk I may not have noticed it. I no longer attempt to read every single post.. By malicious I simply meant that the tone of your post as I read it made it sound like you thought it was incorrectly labeled on purpose or that "I should have known better, it's obvious that the BMT cars are series 1000, 1100, 1300, etc.."
-Dave
I was just pedantically reinforcing the point that it could not have been a 1200-series car, in case there was any doubt. This comes from the slow realization of my advancing age that a majority of railfans alive today have never seen a gate car in service, and might not readily recall what the different car series were like.
Maybe I'm remembering some of my old researches at the New-York Historical Society 30-plus years ago. I did so much work in the area of early 20-century Brooklyn (from various sources) that I could readily identify many photos I had never seen before. One day I came upon a couple of photos in their collection that were badly mis-identified. (IIRC they were c.1915 views on the LIRR R-O-W in the vicinity of the Canarsie Line convergence).
When I brought it to the curator's attention he just refused my ID, even though I was a regular and had been a Society member for several years--it was like: "I'm a curator and you're a stupid kid--why should I listen to you." Finally, they added my identification with a BIG question mark after it.
Since then I've tried to develop multiple means of historical recognition, as in the logic shown in that Rockaway Park photo, but no harm intended.
Conversely, since I haven't ridden the subway for fun in decades, there are many subtleties of newer equipment that 90% of Subtalkers might know off the bat that I haven't a clue of.
>>> The BMT-era convertibles were in the 1000, 1100 and 1300 series. This photo is clearly a 1300-series convertible, apparently 1307. <<<
Paul;
I'll gladly defer to your knowledge of the various BMT series, but here is a photo of a car which apparently has the number "1251" doing a superb imitation of a convertible. When magnified, the second digit looks even more like a "2".
Tom
Tom,
Sometime things are not as they seem to be. The car in question is 1351 even though the picture would make it look like 1251.
Did you try to enlarge the number on the other end of the car?
The real 1251 became Q car 1619B way back in 1939!
Karl
As Karl B remarked, for sure that looks like a well-formed "2", but it isn't 1251 or any other 1200 series car. Human error is possible.
Dave, it's no biggy to me. Late 92 or early 93 is the best I can do to date the photo. R-110B was making its test runs around the system and R-46s had not yet been renumbered. They were done 1993-94 as I remember.
I went to check out your photograph of car #666. A few months back I had someone on my train with the same name spelling as on your picture. Without giving too much detail, I had a guard light that wouldn't clear. You and the TSS got into it over taking the train out of service. Was that 'the Train Dude' from Subtalk?
Subggirl, were you the one with her head out of the cab window while smoking 3 cigarettes? If so then it was me. By the way - if you find your desk epoxied closed in the morning, subgirl, it's only to show that I can take a joke too.
That explains it, thank you for clearing that up!
Mark
what is your database?
My database is a list of R-44 & R-46 cars with original numbers, new numbers, mates, dates of overhaul and dates of renumbering. It resides somewhere in the Subway Car Roster pages (last time I looked).
Look here: R44 Renumbering
and here: R46 Renumbering
Why was the renumbering done?
08/14/2000
[Why was the renumbering done? ]
I heard that the TA wanted only 4 digit car numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought it was the linking?
08/15/2000
[I thought it was the linking? ]
Maybe both !
Bill "Newkirk"
666 - Mark of the Devil. A conincidence?
I can hear Flip Wilson/Geraldine Jones right now: the devil made me do it!
The trains that formerly spent the day east of 21st are now taking their midday nap behind the wall at 63rd, and on the approach from 6th ave. That means shuttle service gets screwed up while they wrong-rail the trains from the Northbound approach / Lower Level of Lex to 57th and 7th, where they go in service. The one on the southbound approach only wrong rails for a few seconds to be pulled into 63rd/lex, and the one on the upper level of Lex has no problem with traffic flow. I saw 2 of these trains this afternoon at 42nd and 57th.
<>
But its gotta get in there in the am, right?
Yep, I suspected at first it comes up 6th ave and switches over to the stub, but that switch (both levels) looks like it hasn't seen use in ages. They must, therefore, be using the Broadway line in the morning as well.
Well with the 5th Aniversary behind us I thought it was time to trot out the old Subtalk awards again. My earlier attempt to host these awards was thawrted by a lack of Subtalker input. Not to be deterred I spent several months observing the MB inorder to complete the awards myself. Well here we are and I have decided on most of the categories. The decision is final and is not up for debate. I have tried to be fair and impartial in making my choices. However I still have many gaps in my information and I need some more input for the following categories:
Best Thread
Best SubTalker in Leading Role
Best Subtalker in Supporting role
Worst transit official
Worst elected official
Best Subway Supporter
Best SubTalker in the Field
Best Contributed Photos
Best Contributed Articles
Most Prolific debator
Worst Speller
Lifetime Award, SubTalker active since day 1
Funniest Single Post
Best Forigen Transit System
Best Station (NYC)
Best Station (other)
Please include a short "why" with each nomination.
In a few days I'll anounce the winners and then we'll do it again in 365 days, maybe with some better organization.
PS: To show that I am fair Train Dude will be recieving an award solely because from the evidence I feel that he deserves it. I wonder if he will come back to collect his statuette?
PPS: Train Dude, before you refuse this award because you hate me realize that you were nominated by more than one non-me person for it.
Mike;
How about a write in for the stupidest most time wasting post. This one of yours surely takes the grand prize.
Tom
I would think that some of my other posts were more time wasting than this. People actually wrote in with nominations so I have to get something done.
WWASSSUUPP!!!! I finally rode my 1st R-142 the other day at Times Square. 6302 at about 3:15 at Times Square on the 2. This is a state-of-the-art subway car. The LCD display telling you the next stop, time, & destination, plus the computerized announcement. No offense to redbird fans, but these cars make the redbirds look like '72 Ford Pintos IMHO. Although I still like the World's Fair R-36's running on the 7. I can't wait till these cars are in full service.
As far as I can remember all the conflict on this MB has arrissen from people objecting to what other post because they feel that those posts are boring or stupid. Well this post is a public service to help eliminate this conflitc in the future. I feel qualified to comment on this because I have learned to overcome boring and stupid posts. First I have a confession to make. I feel that most of the posts on this MB are boring and/or stupid. R62 this, R44 that, R9 this, F train that, Manny B this R110B that. It goes on and on and because I don't live in NYC I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT ANY OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! It dosen't affect me and I couldn't care less. I'm sure your posts would apeal to someone who had basic knowledge of the MTA, but this is everything I know about NYC subway cars:
1) Something called a Redbird is getting old, dragging people and rusting into dust.
2) The R142 sucks for some reason.
3) R "Slant" 40's look wierd.
4) An R33 Single is worse than hell.
5) An R9 has a part called a motorman's cab.
6) The Franklin Shuttle can take you anywhere.
7) Most NYC subway trains look the same.
8) A Triplex has 3 of something. I can't remember if its boggies or cars.
Because of my NYC Subway handicap 80% of the posts seem stupid or boring to me. However I do not complain or yell at people to stop posting. I read what I do like (funny posts or posts that pertain to Philly or Commuter Rail) or I just post an excessive amount of my own threads so that I know that the next day there will be something interesting waiting for me. So now you know how to avoid conflict on SubTalk and now you know why I post so much.
PS: If you want to know how to defeat me and my rampent posting try asking me a question I know the answer to. A simple question like "How does cab signaling work" will set me off writing an hour long reply and by the time I'm done I'll have no time left for my regular material.
Read the name of this message board. Look for boards for stand-up comedy and fiction. Take your comedy and fiction there. Keep your boring train/transit/signalling posts here.
Boring Old Fart Bob
>>> I feel qualified to comment on this because I have learned to overcome boring and stupid posts. First I have a confession to make. I feel that most of the posts on this MB are boring and/or stupid. R62 this, R44 that, R9 this, F train that, Manny B this R110B that. It goes on and on and because I don't live in NYC I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT ANY OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! It dosen't affect me and I couldn't care less ... Because of my NYC Subway handicap 80% of the posts seem stupid or boring to me. However I do not complain or yell at people to stop posting. I read what I do like (funny posts or posts that pertain to Philly or Commuter Rail) or I just post an excessive amount of my own threads so that I know that the next day there will be something interesting waiting for me <<<
Mike;
Once again you show your complete disrespect for this board and the those that have an interest in the NY subways. You clutter up the board with your mindless drivel that is only tangentially on point. If you find most of the posts boring and you couldn't care less about them, look elsewhere on the web for your entertainment. I am sure there are chat rooms all over that would love to have your input.
If the only posts that are interesting to you are about Philly or Commuter Rail, just respond to those topics or post something interesting about those topics. Your excessive off topic posts are an imposition on those who want to use the board for what it was intended.
Tom
P.S. How does cab signaling work??
Hey, almost all of my posts are usually on topic questions about the subway or subway observations I make on my way home. They just happen to deal with the philly system ot the system in general. The name of the board is subtalk, not NYCSubTalk or SeriousSubTalk. My point it if you don't like a certain type of subway post, post one you do like instead of complaining about it.
If you have no idea what we are talking about in reference to NYC subways, find posts 'boring', don't know an R44 from an R62, and 'couldn't care less' about the discussion of the subway here, then I have just one question to ask you:
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE?!?!?
This is a site about the NYC Subway. This message board mostly pertains to the NYC Subway, but occasionally other stuff (like Nathans hot dogs and the London Tubes) creeps in, and is usually welcomed, because it expands our horizons. I know now what an 'Almond Joy' is when it pertains to Philadelphia. Maybe you should explore the rest of the site for a month or so, learn what you can about the NYC subway, then come back. We'll see if you learned anything.
-Hank
I personally resent that a valuable teacher was driven away from this board by a simpsons spouting clown who doesn't have a clue about the primary subject of this board and worse, doesn't want to learn.
I only read a little bit of your post, then got borred !
Why do you insist on wasting your & our time posting this kind of stuff ? Is it the I have to start 3 treads a day thing ... why ?
We've heard from folks who went with you to Philly what a great guy you are ... you sure don't prove it by this kind of stuff !
Maybe you should lurk for a while and reflect on what you see ?
And please get off this Train Dude thing of yours or you'll find that we have all "kill filed" you. Wouldn't that be something, 3 new threads a day and nobody responds !
Mr t__:^)
Sorry i cannot give a direct link with this 1994 macintosh centris 650
Please enter in your location the following...
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
If this does not work e mail me & tell me what happened !
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I do think im finally beginning to get started with posting my transit photography first on yahoo photos then hopefully on my own railfan website !!
Again thank you very much help yourself to the free TEST transit pics enjoy & tell me what you think
....
Interesting shots, Salaam - nice to see "historic" views of the system in its early days. The resolution isn't as crisp as I'd like it when the pics are full size; since I'm not sure why I can't say if that could be cured by a higher-density scan or not (if the original photo is printed on matte or textured paper then there's nothing you can do). Keep posting them!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they were shot with 3M 400 speed STORE BRAND film the operator allowed me to shoot inside the cab etc..
This was done before the days of the internet & i scanned them from an epson 25oo scanner copier into the TWAIN system with a transperency adaptor for negative positive clear film adaptor on the top & a old imac3
now if I could afford those high priced negative scanners I am sure the resolution would be a lot higher !!& the focus as well
also when you shoot in the dark holding cameras still can be a challenge !!Today i will add many more shots so keep watching & i thank you !! also visit my yahoo club MASS TRANSIT COMMENTARY & post there !! ( all of my pics shot with point & shoot cameras if you would like i could send you an invitation thru your e mail...
Not bad, Salaam, not bad at all...
Oh, posting a link has nothing to do with your computer. You just need to type this exactly: <a href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications"> in your message text, and a </a> after the text you want to create a link with. It will look like this when previewed (this being the word I made into the link). Don't forget to preview to make sure you get it right. And of course, you can now create any link you'd like, simply by substituting the 'http' part.
-Hank
Salaam ... they look good to me. It's a good way to start.
That interior red line picture ... is it an optical illusion or is the red line car not as wide as I thought? It almost seems, well, as narrow as an IRT car!
--Mark
I did once made the mistake of mislabeling it as a blue & green line car in which most of the time has blue interior seats except for the newer light rail prototypes some are running on the blue-green lines
it does seem to me that the blue line cars are a bit more narrow!!
The red line subway to nowhere does seem to be irt like but not as big and wide as the nyc bmt-ind & not as large as marta in atlanta
Oh well i am confused on this stuff but I will pay attention much more the next time because i intend to go station to station witn photos a microcasette recorder to record what each station on the blue green & red lines has to offer etc so wish me lick on this one !
I sent webmaster dave 4 hd ibm floppy discs on all of my pictures aprox 40 images to each disc looks much better than when my imac G3 was broke!!( the images scanned even with the TWAIN system looked horrible !! These new images look much better like the ones i posted on yahoo photos.
I have and are posting new photos on that site all of the time so check back and thank you for your comments much appreciated !!
href="http://photos.com/asiaticcommunications">Salaam's photos
hope this works folks good luck & thank you for that nice man who E mailed me with how to post this ...
I looked at your source code.
You don't have to make the font blue, it does it automatically.
And you shouldn't hit the ENTER key while typing the code for the link.
tomorrow i will try again until i make it ( thanks )...
sorry but i wanted to see if this will work ....
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">salaam"s
photos
maybe this link will work
You should preview your stuff.
The same carriage return problem is here.
i am going to give this another try lets see what happens !!
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">salaam'sphotos
here it goes !
Same problems over and over again.
Did you preview the message?
i did then i said ""damn it it did not work ""!!!
( oh well try again sometime later ) thanks...
last one failed because i did not hit post before i could hit clear !
thank you for you understanding .....
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">Salaam's
photos
testing # 2
How about typing this, exactly as you see it:
<a href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">salaam's photos</a>
Salaam –
See the message posted by Henry R32 #3730 at 18:05:34.
Either do what he said, or highlight what he said to type, copy it, and paste it onto your message. When you finish writing your message, click on “Preview Message Before Posting”. This will show you whether the link will work without putting up another unsuccessful post.
Good luck.
Bob
WOW!!! Good shots. The only suggestion I would make is to expand the captions for the thumbnails and the full shots, as that will make it very clear to persons viewing them what they are viewing.
What you have done on Yahoo! is a good first step.
Hey Guys,
I was wondering if anyone had pictures of the northbound Myrtle Ave station just north of Dekalb Ave., while it was in service? How about the southbound platform?
Regards,
JDL
I saw a #6 train of R-142s the other day. When will these cars
start replacing the redbirds? Which ones will go first? What will
happen once the R-142s hit the road? I know that the R-142s will
bump the R-33s from the #2 to the #5, so the R-26s and R-28s will be
scrapped first. What will happen when the R-142s enter the #6? What
will happen to the R-29s, R-33s, R-36s and the R-62As? Will the R-29s,
R-33s and R-36s be scrapped?
From what I heard, the R62s from the 6 and other lines will be moved to the 7.
By the way, when are we getting those R62s on the 7? I could have sworn I saw a stainless stell car passing my redbird at Vernon-Jackson yesterday! I only got a quick glimpse.
:) Andrew
It might have been one of the EP-xxx work motors (R-127 or R-134). They look like R62s without windows and have one center door.
wayne
It was. We were out there last night.
After the 30 Day test is complete then more R142'S will hit the road and Redbirds will be taken off the road. Like 10 Cars of 142'S go in and 10 Cars of R26'S go out or something like that. I think the R26/28'S will be the first to leave since there the oldest cars. I have heard that they may be Redbirds on standbye. This is the order on who gets what first. The No.2+6 Lines will be first to get the delivery and the No.5 Line will be last.
Also this is what I know as of now of Future Line Assignments
Line 1/9- R62A's
Line 2 - R142
Line 3 - Unknown
Line 4 - R62'S + R142
Line 5 - R142
Line 6 - R142A
Line 7 - R62A
This is subject to Change
The 3 Line will give some singles over to the 7 Line. The 3 Line will then get some R62As from the 6 Line. Not all the R62As from Westchester will go to Corona. Once again, subject to change.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
However, the R-142/142A order is 1,080 cars. That leaves something like 350 Redbirds to be replaced by a future order. (Presumably these would mostly be Worlds Fair cars.) Where will these be running for the next two to three years?
Supposedly, the Redbirds would be used for rush hour add-on service, though they would mean spreading them out among at least two or three yards so they could be put and and taken out of service on regular schedule for several different lines at a time.
Again this is speculation, but since there are not enough R62A's (260) on the 6 to cover it entirely now, I believe all of them will go to the 7. Another line will have to give up R62A's to fully cover the 7 line at today's service headways (385 cars according to a car assignment post I saw here a while back). That's where the 3 line comes in. Its cars are needed to make the 11th car on 7 trains. But more are needed to fully cover the 7 line's fleet.
So R62A's can not go from the 6 to the 3 because all of them are needed for the 7. What we might see are R36 sets going from the 7 to the 3. They would have to be stored at Livonia yard in Brooklyn though due to lack of space at Lenox Yard. That or the 3 will get R142s if there are enough of them.
The Evil DRPA continues to suck the work-a-day commuter dry with yet another fare hike. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse PATCO is raising its fares from "reasonable" to "outrageous". They also hinted that next year the fares will go up to "freaking insane" Here's what those jerks have done:
Philly and Camden $1 (+.15)
All NJ $1.10 (+.10)
Ferry Ave $1.60 (+.20)
Coll, WestM Hdfld $1.85 (+.25)
WoodC Ash Lind $2.10 (+.25)
Last year about this time the fares went up the same amount from cheap to reasonable. Not to mention that PATCO raised its parking rate from .25 or free to $1. It is now probably cheaper to drive into Centre City than it in to take PATCO. You gotta love the old "lets make rail transit popular by putting it out of everyone's price range". PATCO says that it needs to upgrade and fix stuff but I do't buy it. Their everlasting Budd cars should last another 40 years and the track etc. looks fine. Both PATH and SEPTA have kept their fares low and SEPTA just got a new fleet of M4 subway cars. The DRPA is transfering funds from PATCO and the bridges to build waste of time pork projects in Camden like a stadium and a tramway. If anything PATCO should bride tolls to help subsudize transit riders. Not to mention that that boondoggle Camden-Trenton light railis is eating into any state funds PATCO might have gotten. The DRPA is running amok and nobody seems able to stop it. I would rather ride in snot filled trains with broken windows and crumbling stations than face another 2 fare hikes!
So let's see, a 17-mile long commuter train line that runs every ten minutes costs a bit more than a ride with transfer on SEPTA and a LOT less than most commuter lines in Phila. and other cities. I don't like it either, especially if the whole family is going, but you have to admit that for what you get, for the average working person, it is not that expensive, considering that most people are avoiding the $2 toll and the $8 parking expense. When I was 14, I was unhappy at one time when the NYC subway fare was raised to 20 cents, but that didn't make the NYCTA the most evil people in the world, and most working people could afford the extra nickel.
If the PATCO train were, as you say you prefer, disgusting and filled with gross stuff and broken windows, most customers would disappear and nothing would keep it going then. It may be that they don't really need to raise the fare, but it doesn't warrant such anger.
1) PATCO is only 14 miles long.
2) It is a subway, not a commuter railroad.
3) PATCO does not offer discount rate weekly or monthly tickets. (I wouldn't complain if they did)
4) Bridge toll is $3 (thank you again DRPA)
5) Some bussinesses offer free parking (I think).
6) PATCO should be offered as the clearly better choice for commuters. It costs the same to run a 3/4 filled train as it does to run a full train. If they offered cheap fares and near free parking they would fill those trains and make more $ on volume. Everyone would win. Cheap fares, more money, less cars on the road. PATCO is using monopoly style tactics to squeeze every cent out of the no-choice riders and then catching everyone else with hi bridge tolls.
PATCo and the DRPA could use its power so help improve commuting in the area, but they don't. They could offer a $2 toll to help lure ppl onto the under-utilized Betsy Ross Br. but they don't. 1.1 years ago a round trip to the Sports Complex with parking cost $4.65 from haddonfield. today it costs $6.00 and in 20 days it will be $6.50. What a way to atract riders.
PATCO user's only recourse is to hoard 10 trip tickets.
"Hello, I'd lile 32 10 trip tickets please?"
"I'm sorry, but the man in front of you just bought out our entire supply."
Some comments:
-----
2) It is a subway, not a commuter railroad.
PATCO is a hybrid or sorts - it has typical subway-type equipment (and may be even station spacing), but clearly serves a "commuter railroad" function. How about peak/off-peak fares?
-----
3) PATCO does not offer discount-rate weekly or monthly tickets.
Weekly and Monthly passes are always nice. They also a revenue-enhancer - people buy their weekly/monthly passes in advance, so the agency has prior use of their money.
-----
6) PATCO should be offered as a clearly better choice for commuters. It costs the same to run a 3/4 filled train as it does to run a full train. If they offered cheap fares and nearly free parking, they would fill those trains and make more $ on volume.
That point is valid, although PATCO probably isn't looking to actually make money (most transit agencies run at a loss, and must be subsidized). As a matter of both public policy and congestion management, it's sensible to enhance the attractiveness of non-auto modes in order to minimize the number of vehicles in Center City (while still serving everybody who must travel there) as well as to clear space on the roads for those who truly need to use them.
[PATCO is a hybrid or sorts - it has typical subway-type equipment (and may be even station spacing), but clearly serves a "commuter railroad" function. How about peak/off-peak fares?]
The Budd-built cars are actually "hybrid of sorts", related to commuter rail cars, as they were built with Pioneer 3 trucks and designed to achieve a top speed of 90 mph and run at 75, although excessive motor wear early on reduced operating speed to 65.
With SRO rush hour trains, bargain pricing is inappropriate. Peak/off-peak fares would be an excellent idea if it could be worked into PATCO's fare system.
DRPA raised the tolls on all the bridges: $3.00 ($2.70 with E-Z Pass). This is supposed to be for bridge repairs, etc. So far they have added a multi-million dollar decroative lighting system. Ooohh. Ahhh.
You see, that's why I'm so mad. The DRPA is spending our bridge and train money on lights and trams and baseball stadiums and parks along Adirimal Willson Blvd.
To be fair; it is better than giving themselves a big raise. They are trying to improve the area around them. Though I do agree in principal about how they spend money, at least they are doing SOMETHING. Noticeable change is taking place, and possibly for the better. Albeit, spray-painted brick designs seem silly; and we probably don't need another stadium. The tram sounds neat, but... I am not sure it will be used (The whole Penn's Landing thing needs to happen first). They are repainting the bridge - which is needed, and movable dividers to separate traffic is a "duh" issue to me. The lights to enhance the bridge; but they did not have to do that first.
Those movable dividers look ugly. They make the bridge look like a construction zone. The light system leaves the beautyful design of the bridge untouched. Besides if people don't like traffic on the bridge they should take the train. PATCO should strive to force people off the road and onto boats and trains.
Who said anything about traffic on the bridge? I was referring to the Patented Jersey Dividers that will improve bridge safety. They may not be the prettiest thing, but they are a good thing. Trains, and to a further extent; unfortunately do not go where a lot of people need to go.
In sum... let's agree to disagree, and save a number of posts that will just go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...
Actually the flexible barriers were invented for* and first used on the PA turnpike (or so my dad says). I have seen them used on the Penna Tpk for years and years and old ones at that. We must also weight the 2 types of accidents that will result. With the barriers you get a cattle chute with chain recation accidents that are confined to a small space. These accidents will shut down the whole bridge side instead of just a lane or 2. W/o the barriers you run the risk of cars crossing the median lane and head-oning someone. However the bridge speed is low in the 40-50 mph range. I'm still sad that they removed the unused eastbound toll boths. Nothing made me happier than getting to drive through a toll booth w/o paying. It also cut down of speeders.
I don't know about the Penna Turnpike inventing the movable barriers, but I do know that they will help the current traffic situation, especially on the Ben where there have been some major head-on accidents. The big problem is driver carelessness - there is usually at least one lane left 'empty' between directions of traffic, but we live in a time when many drivers do not follow signs, lane signals, etc. I've even seen more u-turns on the bridge than I'd like to have witnessed (and I'm NOT a frequent user!).
If you want to see the real source of the problem, look at who DRPA is. It's a collection of elected officials from both sides of the Delaware. Some of our most notorious politicos are represented on the Board. And look at who's directing all this money to other projects. Hmmm...
The tram, in my opinion, is an amusement park ride and a waste of time as a transportation facility. By the same token, the sprucing up of the Admiral Wilson, while it looks nice, should fall to the City of Camden. Since Camden is run by a reputed drug kingpin, we won't expect much. But also keep in mind that DRPA is helping to fund the Camden-Trenton light rail...
Which is also a waste of money. They should be building a Camden-Glassboro or Camden-Moorestown line, but some state politicion blocked and they elected for a compromise system. I assume that there is some logic in "if you can't build a transit system that will help people, spend the money on one that won't".
Bob- Did you see PATCO's new station maps-- they show the SNJLRT (minus stations)
Bridge toll payers protested when their tolls subsidized construction of PATCO.
PATCO is embarking on a major roadbed/track rehab.
PATCO runs its business in a very frugal cost-effective manner.
25 cents to park in the closest lots was too cheap (NJT Hamilton charges $3 and people pay it without bitching).
DRPA squanders money big time.
Uh-huh. Right. So now you have to pay a rate that is closer to the cost of your ride, and subsidize your own trackwork. Looks aren't everything, and 40-year-old cars likely will not last another 10.
You're just AFWDSTBP.
-Hank
The way PATCO shop employees and management keep after their 32 year old cars built by Budd, they are expected to last at least another 30 years.
How dare you doubt the power of Budd! Nothing kills stainless steel. Not even railfan foam. BTW stop calling me acronyms, I can't tell if I should feel insulted.
I wouldn't complain about PATCO. Although I'm only a very occasional rider, it's still a great convenience to me when I need it and it's still the best transit bargain in these parts.
Let's examine the facts.
I'll trade you any day my ride on a SEPTA 'express' bus (at $1.60 each way, but I use tokens so it's only $1.15). There's no snot on the new buses, YET, but now that the GOP's gone, let's see how clean they stay.
Compare PATCO fares to SEPTA Regional Rail. If I take the train in my commute, it's a $3.25 ride each way. This is for an 8-mile one-way trip. On PATCO I could do much better - I could ride round trip to Haddonfield (about the same mileage). And the only way I can get to the nearest RR station is on my own, since SEPTA doesn't connect me to it (and if it did, I'd only be able to make it worthwhile with a TrailPass, not cheap).
PATCO is more than driving/parking? Have you seen Center City parking rates lately? The cheapest lots in town are now charging $7-$8 for the 'early bird' all day. Add $3 bridge toll and it still doesn't compare, even with the SEPTA transfer (and who is subsidizing that 'cheap' SEPTA round trip - methinks it's more from the Pennsylvania side of the river than the Jersey side - and why is SEPTA helping Jersey residents with lower fares at the expense of its Penna customers?).
Drivers complain that bridge tolls are used for PATCO. This is true. It should be. It isn't the other way around. Up until about 10 years ago, PATCO didn't get any federal assistance and I don't think it gets any transit money directly from Penna or NJ. As far as I know it doesn't even get any state matching funds for its FTA grants.
PATCO is an aging system. It is hard to believe that it's over 30 years old. The cars need to be replaced in the next 5-10 years, despite their high levels of maintenance, and track is wearing out. The NJ stations are starting to show wear. It isn't unreasonable to expect fares to pay for this.
I've heard lots of screaming and bitching about PATCO's fare hikes. It's a fact of life. PATCO didn't touch the fare structure for 16 years and now everyone's crying that the fares went up. The last time PATCO hiked its fares, 1983, SEPTA fares were 75 cents. Today the base fare is $1.60. I'm not thrilled with paying it, especially for the level of service I receive, but it's the fare. I can take it or leave it if I think I can do better.
I do agree that PATCO could have a multi-trip discount and still am puzzled that it doesn't have this. I think one could argue that fares should be higher in the peak, since that's when demand is greatest, and I would support that as opposed to an off-peak fare. I also believe that a simpler bus-train combination fare needs to be provided, and this would put more people on the trains.
On the occasion that I have to use PATCO, it's usually in the peak hours. I've always seen standing loads on the trains I've used. I have counterparts who use it daily and they say this is usually the case. The only complaint I hear is the reduction of express trains, but this has resulted in more service to more riders.
How can PATCO get more riders? This is difficult. With the change in the Phila-area economy to services from manufacturing, there are more auto-dependent workers (salespeople, etc) who will never be attracted to transit. I have met very few people who work in Center City and have free parking as a perk, especially as parking becomes a more scarce commodity. I think the answer is in multi-trip tickets and better NJ bus transfers. PATCO can control the former but has little to do to get the latter without NJ Transit's help.
I took out my hand calculator last nite and went to work to compare SEPTA regional rail to PATCO. Peak one way fares are far higher so I went to a zone 2 (PATCo legnth) monthly pass. Assuming 44 rides a month the cost per ride would be $2.09 or just about the new cost of a PATCO ticket. However a monthly pass will also cover all transfers to other SEPTA lines once in the city and you get to ride in big regional rail limos with 3-2 seating. SEPTA also offers things like the family fare on weekends as well as some other discounts. Right now the current fare rate (1.60 or 1.85) is reasonable because that fare never changes and PATCO offers no discounts what-so-ever.
Gee, from $1.60 to $1.85 in ten years, in my opinion, it's very reasonable. If anything, PATCO needs new cars to AUGMENT the fleet now, just as it did 20 years ago when the first Vickers arrived. If anything, those Budds are built to last, and Vickers borrowed the design. The fleet just needs a new interior (ala SEPTA Silverliner IV), the cam controller should be replaced with chopper control, and rebuild the DC motors to be brushless (yes, they do make brushless DC motors). They would still have a state of the art car and they would save money too. I think it's a good idea.
No, it went from 1.40 to 1.85 in just over 1 year and they will probably boost it again next year.
Last year when they approved the rate hikes it was out in the open - there would be two increases. Therfore, at least right now, they probably won't increase the fares next year.
The little phamphlet they handed out said there were 3 hikes planned, the first being last year.
Well that is news to me; I heard it was two. I apologize for that. However, they did go through a process to arrive at that; and it was not a "sudden today we raised our tolls" move.
In New York State the Thruway Authority agreed quietly on a major toll hike... without holding meetings first. That is sneaky. I know for a fact that DRPA held no less than three meetings about the proposed fare hikes.
Well the problem is that nobody can stop them. The Port Authority is a bi-state agency and local politicions can't tell them to keep fares down. If SEPTA tried to raise fares you have thousands of people calling their state rep and the state reps will stop SETPA. The DRPA is independant of any one state's control. NJ and PA would have to work together to stop the DRPA and we all know that will never happen.
PATCO has not hads its fares increased since sometime back in the early 1980's prior to last year.
Can you say: "inflation"? Good!
PATCO is still a great bargain. Would that more transit lines were so "expensive."
Andrew Byler
Can we stop acting like children and refrain from personal attacks? Isn't this a site where we exchange ideas, or is this the WWF? Come on already and get your acts together. You need to respect each other's opinions and learn to compromise. The you're an assh**e bit just adds fuel to the fire. Has anyone heard of the killfile here? Use it! It's available.
-Stef
Yes, captain!
"Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most amusing!"
-Paraphase Lt. Cmdr. Data
-Hank
I've noticed green locomotives in the Sunnyside Yard, among the new 2-level passenger cars. What's up with that?
The New York and Atlantic Railway is the company responsible for freigh operations on the LIRR. There are some pics from a tour I took with them at http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/nycrrs/
-Hank
Are they using ex-LIRR locos?
"Are they using ex-LIRR locos?"
Yes.
Be sure to check out this week's edition of the _Village Voice_. The lead article is a feature on subway surfing, with a somewhat if not entirely sympathetic portrayal of several practitioners. Stan Fischler is quoted as saying it "defies credulity." Dunno if the article will encourage more people to take up the "sport" - it's pretty clear on the dangers involved - but that wouldn't be such a bad thing. I understand that the list of candidates for this year's Darwin Awards is sorta thin.
I wonder how many of those punks, if asked, would know the meaning of the words "close clearance"?
I bet they never heard of Darwin either?
I have a solution to prevent subway surfing, i.e. use overhead wires to transmit the electricity instead of the third rail. No one will climb onto the top if we use overhead wire. By the way, how and where the surfer climb onto the top?
http://www.queenstribune.com/news/index.html#deadline2
The artist formerly known as "Broadway Jorge"
As a very frequent user of this station, when connecting to/from the Q-33 to LGA, I like the plan. Unfortunately, it won't do anything to help the incredibly congested Roosevelt Avenue itself, nor the numbered streets which are riddled with double-parked cars so that buses can't get through.
And what's to become of the OTB "-;
Too bad they can't also expand the Roosevelt Ave # 7 structure so as to make the stop an expess instead of a local stop.
They COULD force the express track to join the local tracks by using "Y" switches at either end of the station but I don't think they'll do this - it will cause bottlenecks. The elevated station was opened in 1917 or so; the subway station opened in 1935 or 1936.
I'm curious as to what they're going to do down at platform level. That's a pretty dismal station down there, despite the flourescent light.
wayne
Wayne. I have not seen any plans, but anytime they do a major renovation, they replace lighting. This station is a major station with major renovation. I expect the plans to include new edge lighting plus the now standard transverse lighting. This station I expect to have twin tube transverse lighting. The renovation will include elevators to all platforms (including the 7) and full renovations to all platforms.
Jorge;
The cite led to an article about proposed legislation regarding violence against women. Do you have a better one?
Tom
They update their things after a day (like the New York Times).
I still had the original in my Cache (e-mail me if you want pics):
Queens subway riders will be able to breathe a fresh sigh of relief and enjoy the style of Jackson Heights thanks to a plan that will renovate and revive the heavily-trafficked 74th and Roosevelt subway station and turn what has long been a transferring trouble spot for trash into a state of the art beauty.
[PIC]
A close-up of what the 74th St. and Roosevelt Ave. could look like after a facelift.
The plan, proposed and followed through on by Assemblyman Ivan Lafayette, will be completed by 2003 and will give new life to the transfer stop which connects the #7 train with the R, G, E, F lines. According to the Queens County Overall Economic Development Corporation, the station was the second busiest in Queens in 1999, serving an average of 47,635 riders on weekdays and 43,294 on the weekends.
The station is currently housed in the Victor Moore Arcade, and the futuristic-looking new vision for the Arcade grew from the need to construct elevators that would assist in handicap access. Lafayette urged that rather than just meeting the handicap requirement for the station, a station that would better serve all riders be invested in.
"I said we should spend it wisely and as a result the MTA and the city will make a completely new building," said Lafayette. He also lobbied, fought, tended and watched over the project to collect the added funding needed for the project which, it is now estimated, will have a total price tag of $117 million.
[PIC]
An artist’s rendering of the proposed renovations at the 74th St. and Roosevelt Ave. subway station.
In addition to the new handicap access, the station will be designed to better handle the flow of people and buses during rush hour and it will also offer extra terminal spaces for buses that will be large enough for the new, natural gas buses. "The terminals will be bigger, so people will not be jammed and packed together during peak hours," said LaFayette.
The plan also calls for six new elevators which will transfer from street level to the subway terminal and vice versa. New stores will be added to the station, as well some see-through glass bricking that will provide higher security.
Construction is expected to begin in Spring 2001 and will cause lane closures on streets surrounding the area, but the station will remain in service. "More trains will mean people will get where they have to go faster," said LaFayette, "It will offer the public more service and accomodate the handicapped, which is important."
Maybe it's the August heat. Not only has a member of SubTalk taken his marbles and gone home, a professional member of another newsgroup I follow (rec.collecting.coins) has suddenly angrily withdrawn, and in even more bitter terms. The former gentleman only today broke his silence to provide a bit of useful info, but couldn't resist a snipe in the process.
Which got me thinking. The barely veiled subtext of the argument in Subtalk is the question "What is Subtalk?" The only one who really is in a position to say so is Dave, and as I write this I see only two general caveats: "Avoid Flamage" and "No general tourism questions." If he wished, Dave could post a FAQ or "Charter" every month or so to make this clearer. This is the way many newsgroups do it.
Failing that, my own rarely humble opinion is that while I think people should keep rampant OT-ing down, I don't believe everyone should have to "walk on eggs" to please one or another particular poster.
However, I think this all depends on a general view of "What is SUBTALK most similar to?" I offer the following suggestions, in all seriousness.
A. Technical Knowledge Base.
B. The Electric Railway Journal.
C. BRT Monthly.
D. A community bulletin board.
E. National Lampoon.
E. Popeye.
To explain briefly:
A. A place for serious questions and technical answers. Howto. Bugs. Problems. Documentation. If you want to get lighthearted, get tickets to the circus.
B. Sobersided industry journal. Good technical articles. What's happening in the industry. An occasional human interest piece.
C. Employee publication. Some history. Lots of current events. "Busman's Holiday" articles of interest. News of important to the community. Talking about how much the kids liked the employee picnic. The great joke M/M Burns played on C/R Turner.
D. Anything goes, just so it doesn't get beyond a PG-13 rating. News, announcements, articles clipped from the paper. Aunt Maude's rugallah recipe.
E. "R-143? We don't need no steenking R-143."
F. "I yam what I yam, and that all what I yam."
If I haven't made it obvious, I lean toward "C", but if I thought it would give people in "C" license to make war on people in the other letters (or v.v.) I would prefer "E".
[hich got me thinking. The barely veiled subtext of the argument in Subtalk is the question "What is Subtalk?" The only one who really is in a position to say so is Dave, and as I write this I see only two general caveats: "Avoid Flamage" and "No general tourism questions." If he wished, Dave could post a FAQ or "Charter" every month or so to make this clearer. This is the way many newsgroups do it.
Failing that, my own rarely humble opinion is that while I think people should keep rampant OT-ing down, I don't believe everyone should have to "walk on eggs" to please one or another particular poster.]
Dave probably won't be pleased to hear this, but I (sometimes) see Subtalk as a neat forum for complaints. Hey, it's fun to rail away against the Beame Shuffle, suit-covered anuses on the LIRR, anencephalic City Council members, Upper West Side limousine liberals, and so on :-)
But seriously, I find that Subtalk is a useful place for give-and-take on many different topics. Nyc.transit is not quite as useful, IMO.
I don't mind people posting complaints here as long as they understand that their breath is 99% of the time going wasted because those who can do something about it aren't reading SubTalk...
I say 99% because some of the times someone reading SubTalk CAN do something about it. Like Train Dude and bad A/C on cars... but really, that's an unusual case.
-Dave
I post, and respond to posts, on the issue of transit (especially subways) and issues related to transit.
Related issues includes a lot of things -- labor relations, urban planning, government fiscal policy, energy issues, urban history, goods and services accessible by transit, etc. All affect transit use, transit users, transit policy. As long as (to use a legal term) there is a "rational nexus" to the subway, or subways in general, or subway predecessors like light rail and elevateds, I see no reason to ban a topic from the board.
I'm not an engineer, so some of the technical stuff goes over my head, though I do learn from it.
If there are posts I don't like, I ignore them. If there are posters I don't like, I ignore their posts. If there are threads I don't like, I ignore them. I don't have enough time to read all the posts.
To me, Subtalk is more like a daily newspaper produced by transit fans, with extensive coverage of transit issues and articles on other subjects, but always from a transit point of view.
I think we're mostly "A", all too often "D", "E" and "F", and not enough "B". However I don't see us getting more "B". We're not an industry journal. Without professional researchers and writers coming on board to actually do that sort of thing, it won't happen any time soon either. I'd like to find a place between "A" and "B"-- i.e. take the little technical and historical snippets and work them into a more sober article once in a while but who has time?
-Dave
take the little technical and historical snippets and work them into a more sober article once in a while but who has time?
This is what I look to do with "The Third Rail," but as you say, this "magazine" format is time-consuming.
BTW, I misspoke ("mislettered") myself: I meant to say that I think of Subtalk as being "C" (like an employee publication) but would accept "F" (it yam what it yam) if nothing else could reach agreement, not "E" (National Lampoon).
I can't see a real stab at "A" or "B" simply because those choices require strong editing which is not possible in a more-or-less open self-selected forum.
Ahh. Well I was answering from my perspective managing the entire site. In my head I can't separate the two given the amount of time I do spend on "editorial" tasks. Considering the entire site I don't see why A or B is an unattainable goal, well, at least A if not B, but I forgot that most people treat SubTalk as it's own thing. I think a lot of visitors never even bother to see what's under the www.nycsubway.org link at the top of every SubTalk page. (Not you, Paul, but in general.)
-Dave
I don't know which letter this fits into, but mostly I like this forum as a place where I can ask railfanny transit questions and get inteligent answers. And every so often I also like to vent the odd complaint (yes I understand it has no practical use, but we all need to vent!)
Subtalk is a combination of 3 things. First A, a place where people can ask questions and get answers. Second it is an anecdote exchange forum where people can tell stories ot observations and others can comment about them. Third it is a place where people can tell railfan humour and expect to have people actually get the joke.
Officer walks up to car window. "You seem to have had it in Run 8 back there. What's the hurry, the intermodal yard closing?"
I view this board as 2 things:
1. Proof that I'm not a lunatic because I'm a subway nut. Until I discovered this website, I thought I was.
2. An educational tool. My knowledge of subway history has increased exponentially since before I discovered it.
I believe all the recent trouble has been caused by those who view this board as something more than what it is. It's merely a place where strangers with similar interests can exchange ideas and information.
If Dave decided to shut this board down today, I wouldn't cry. However, some of us would. These people need to take this bit of advice, not meant as an insult:
Get a life.
Personally I see Subtalk as a cross between A, B, & D!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
trevor... if you rearrange the letters in your choice, would it be correct to say that you feel subtalk is really B. A. D .--- as is, where it's happening???
LOL HA HA HA HA HA HA HA H!
Good one paul!
Trevor
After reading this and other recent posts, I'm starting to realize that it isn't just me. Subtalk appears to be changing and I'm not sure I like it. I went along through rough days earlier this year, and the whole password thing, but now it's getting goofy again (maybe it's the heat).
I'm sorry to see Train Dude/Steve go to a dormant status but I can agree with his rationale. I've always thought that Subtalk was an exchange of ideas, information, etc. When it gets reduced to insults, it's no longer fun (as Steve noted, anger isn't worth the energy). I don't see the need to insult someone just because of a disagreement - we supposedly live in a free country and different opinions should be accepted.
I'm also a little disappointed with some of the threads. I don't spend a lot of time on this board, perhaps 2 or 3 times a week if that. I have many other interests and a busy life. I like to check in and see what's happening and I like to add my spins, information, 2 cents, etc as I see fit. Lately, though, it seems that many of my posts get shoved to the archives after a couple of days. This is fine, but when seemingly mindless stuff like the 'snot' discussion stays on the board, it makes me wonder. I know, as a non-NY'er, many of my posts have more to do with home (Phila), but this isn't just all about NYC either.
I'm not ready to announce that I'm leaving the board (and, even if I did, it's my decision), but I would like to voice my displeasure with the way things seem to be going. If I do decide to go, I would like to think that I've left some valuable information here for others to use as they see fit.
I am a bit disappointed in the beligerrence of some of the posts and their authors. Personally I could do without this, but it is a free country. I am also saddened by the actions of a frequent poster who saw fit to borrow materials from me over a year ago but has not yet returned them and now will not respond to my e-mails asking for this back. I sent these in good faith and now have apparently been burned by this person who is by the way still posting. I have had to disappoint three others who have asked to borrow the same books, etc which have selfishly been kept from me. I know this is not an example of the typical Subtalk poster, and I suspect our paths will cross at some point so I can determine why this person did what was done.
Back to the point - let's keep Subtalk as interesting, light-hearted and informative as it once was.
[I'm sorry to see Train Dude/Steve go to a dormant status but I can agree with his rationale. I've always thought that Subtalk was an exchange of ideas, information, etc. When it gets reduced to insults, it's no longer fun (as Steve noted, anger isn't worth the energy). I don't see the need to insult someone just because of a disagreement - we supposedly live in a free country and different opinions should be accepted.
I'm also a little disappointed with some of the threads. Lately, though, it seems that many of my posts get shoved to the archives after a couple of days. This is fine, but when seemingly mindless stuff like the 'snot' discussion stays on the board, it makes me wonder.]
I'd attribute this to a more or less inevitable ebb and flow. Whether on Usenet or on Subtalk, there are periods during which there are many interesting threads, and periods during which there's mostly fluff. Why this happens I don't know, but it happens. The best advice I can offer is to hang in there, as the quality of discussions is bound to improve.
[I am a bit disappointed in the beligerrence of some of the posts and their authors. Personally I could do without this, but it is a free country.]
Killfiles are one solution. Another one is to read only those threads whose titles seem interesting. You also can concentrate on posts by Subtalkers whom you've determined to be knowledgeable and interesting (and yes, it doesn't take long to figure out who's who.) I know it's tempting to read, or try to read, every single posting, but that's not necessary and indeed might detract from one's enjoyment of Subtalk.
It's not me either, and I'm starting to sick of Jersey Mike's incessant clutter. I think he's going to be the next addition to my killfile. If everybody does, maybe he'll just go away.
Ok, I promice to stop posting lamely humourous stuff. Are my generalized questions about transit ok, or should I cut those out too. Here tell me which of the following are acceptable and i will follow your guidelines to the letter. I don't want to be a nussiance here.
Funny Subway Stories
Specific Subway Questions
General Subway Questions
Philly Area Transit News
Philly Area Transit Observations
Tell me what you want and I'll do it.
I'll go with Philly Area Transit.
No questions, unless it's something you don't know.
So none of those pure opinion questions. No, what do you like, only how does it work. What about, a which is better question.
Here tell me which of the following are acceptable and i will follow your guidelines to the letter. I don't want to be a nussiance here.
Funny Subway Stories NO (unless they are true)
Specific Subway Questions OK if you are asking to gain knowledge.
General Subway Questions NO NO NO (see below)
Philly Area Transit News OK
Philly Area Transit Observations OK
Mike;
I assume when you say "General Subway Questions" you are referring to the threads that you are forever starting with subjects like "Why don't they paint the subways pink?" or "How do transit systems staff peak period operations?" or "Why do new transit projects cost so much?" which you seem to post more from some narcissist need to see your posts than any real desire to get meaningful information.
You have said it yourself in previous posts. You put excessive posts on the board, and you post a large quantity so some of them will be interesting. You should not worry about being interesting to others, but post only what is really interesting to you. Try for quality, not quantity.
Tom
Well I do ask them because I am interested. I don't have any Subway friends to ask these questions to, but if this MB thinks they are fluff I'll hold em for sobtalk live or something.
Mike;
If you send me an e-mail or snail mail address, I'll send you a detailed critique of what I find objectionable in your general questions, and suggestions as to how they could be improved.
Tom
I am also saddened by the actions of a frequent poster who saw fit to borrow materials from me over a year ago but has not yet returned them and now will not respond to my e-mails asking for this back. I sent these in good faith and now have apparently been burned by this person ...
Boy do I share your pain, Bobw. I lent one of my videotape masters out to someone for his request "to use my footage to make a professional style video". It's well over a year and a half, and I still don't have it back.
And yet there are others who have graciously loaned me rare books to look at which I am very grateful for. And I have always (and in one particular case, working on) returning them, either by insured mail or in person. So I guess we just managed to find the same bad apples off that proverbial tree.
--Mark
That makes three of us. No one on Subtalk falls into that category, mind you; however, I've been burned more than once when I've loaned stuff out. It's gotten to the point where I simply refuse to lend anything to anyone anymore. Maybe I should require a hefty deposit up front...
While I was waiting for an outboung green line train at Park St., a Boeing-Vertol lrv passed by without customers because the back of the train was smoking. I really wonder how much longer these cars will last;lately they have been making more whining sounds than normal, plus there is sometimes an awful screeching sound from the middle of the car in the "moving circle" part. I appreciate them being in service since the MBTA needs those 55 cars, but sometimes I question their safety. The Amerail overhaul was done so the cars would last through 1999, and now thee type-8 delivery may not be complete until 2002...this doesn't sound like a good situation to me.
Also, as I was traveling inbound, I saw one of the PCC trolley doors open at Boylston, but the car was dark and I don't think anyone was inside. -Nick
I ended up going back on the green line today. At Boylston, there were now workers inside both trolley cars (the lights had been turned on)...looks like a cleaning job was going on. -Nick
These would have been the PCC and the Type 5?
I'm looking for infrmation connected with the Caracas Metro System. I'll be very grateful if anyone could help me with facts about this Metro system.
This topic has come about before, but I want to address it directly:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that the express tracks leading to 179th and Hillside Ave are unused? This is, after all, one of the farthest reaches of the subway. 179th is one of the places you'd think we need express service the most.
Why couldn't they extend the G or R to 179th so the F can run express all the way? And is there any real hope that the 63rd St. extension will result in local/express service on the Hilside Ave branch?
Well, it all comes down to a 1 thing... cars. I doubt that the NYCT can cough up a few extra cars to extend service of any lines all the way.
That's the...
running on...
's
perspective.
[Why couldn't they extend the G or R to 179th so the F can run express all the way?]
When Archer Avenue first opened, the pattern was:
E - express thru to Archer
F - express thru to 179th
G - local to Continental
R - local to 179th
Folks at Van Wyck Blvd (now "Briarwood") and 75th Avenue complained about having only R trains, so the R was cut back to Continental and the F was sent local in the "outer zone" of the Queens Blvd line.
..
<Queens Blvd line.>>
But Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Ave are LOCAL STOPS! All anyone has to do is transfer at the next express station. It's the same as with any local-express situation. For that matter riders who use the 111th and 103rd St. stations on the Flushing IRT only have local service. And the riders who use Neck Rd. and Avenue U stations of the Brighton Line only have local service. What's really the difference?
There's obviously the difference.
There these people get on the train and it becomes express, no transfer, it's a one seat ride.
The IND was smart in their design. Trains would be local on the outer ends (205th Street, Washington Heights, even Culver and Lefferts/Rockaway), then become express to a new starting local as things get denser with few stops and finally stops everywhere that's useful downtown.
The IRT/BMT isn't as good in that respect. Notice the 4 ending at Utica with the 3 continuing, or the Q ending at Brighton Beach with the D continuing. It should be the other way around (and the older two also had too many stops in places).
This express/local stuff is SO overrated. It was discussed to the point of boredom about a year ago. The difference in the running/station differential time for the F past Continental local vs. express is 4 stations. The mileage has to be covered anyway! The running time difference is only 1 or 2 minutes! Relax! You'll get there! The F can easily handle the crowds by itself via local! The E is much more crowded leaving Union Tkpe. compared to the F since most bus lines got rerouted to Parsons/Archer in Dec. 1988.
Using these tracks was only viable when the E AND F ran to 179th, where one train ran local (E) and the other express (F). Since both trains went express after Continental Ave, there was no real incentive to avoid the local. When the R replaced the E in 1988, it made the local train highly undesirable, as it really lengthened the ride into Manhattan, having to make every stop in Queens. It was the communities around the outer portion of the Hillside Ave. line which pushed for the end of express F service in 1992 (which indirectly doomed the remaining R30 subway cars, but that's another story). This mood hasen't changed, and no new service via 63rd. St will make things different if it goes local west of Continental.
why stop for F service???
BM34x
F express service to 179th St was stopped because the communities does not want to take the fewer R locals and watch the more frequent F expresses zoom by. The result is what we have today.
And the same people who were screaming bloody murder about the 'R' being the sole provider at local stations between Forest Hills and Jamaica are now screaming bloody murder about the 'F' changing from express to local between Forest Hills and Jamaica.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
There are folks over in northern Virginia who use I-66 who routinely call into the drive-time radio talk shows to complain that Metro should install walls between the subway tracks and the automobile lanes "because it is absolutely infuriating to see the subway flying by at 60MPH while we haven't moved an inch for over an hour." Some idiots have even suggested the subway be removed so the ROW can be reclaimed for automobiles. It was really funny listening to a verbal slugfest the other day between these doofuses and the folks who want the metro link for the Rt. 7/Dulles Airport corridors.
"because it is absolutely infuriating to see the subway flying by at 60MPH while we haven't moved an inch for over an hour."
Infuriating? Maybe, but from the other point of view it's hilarious! Watching the cars creep along on the Kennedy Expressway (on weekends, mind you!) while I fly past in a Blue Line train is the only reason I ever use the CTA to get downtown instead of always using Metra. The Metra line looks down on the expressway for a good distance too, but you can't see the faces of the drivers and their passengers as you can from the L trains. :^)
The taxi passengers look especially dyspeptic when they see the L trains pass them as their meter ticks ever upward. They probably considered using the subway to get to/from the airport but decided on a taxi because they presumed it would be faster. Not during daylight hours on weekdays, pal!
Yeah, the Lincoln tunnel is pretty bad. It took 30 minutes just to get through yesterday on an NJT bus. Next time I might be better off taking PATH part of the way, and then catch a bus.
I wish they'd put trains along the LIE!
I remember getting stuck at the Lincoln Tunnel in June of 1967 while heading into the city to my cousin's graduation party. It was a Saturday afternoon, and it must have taken us a good half hour to go all the way down that spiral ramp on the Jersey side. Bumper to bumper right up to the toll booths. Can't remember if all three tubes were open.
OTOH, we drove through it early on New Year's Day in 1971, and there was only one lane open in each direction in each of the outer tubes. No tie-ups at all; we cruised on through.
I drove my parents in my Dad's car westbound through the Lincoln Tunnel I think mid '60's and people with clipboards and stopwatches were standing in the approach counting the cars per minute entering. A traffic cop stopped us (and traffic behind us) for no apparent reason and made us wait until the next time unit began. We had no clue as to what was going on. Several years later an article was published in Scientific American describing a study that correlated maximum traffic flow with cars per minute per lane entering the tunnel. We had participated in the study without knowing it at the time.
(I wish they'd put trains along the LIE!)
I'd settle for an express bus lane. A bus terminal with subway connection could be built in Queens to soak up some of that local capacity through the 63rd St tunnel.
Maybe they need to bring back the poster of the 1950's showing traffic bumper to bumper on the George Washington Br. and underneath saying next time take the train. If nothing else it would apply in cities and suburbs where trains are evrywhere, ok, almost.
I could just imagine it:
You're sitting back on an Orange line train as it speeds through the median of I-66, and watching thousands of motionless vehicles fly by on the eastbound lanes on a weekday morning. Maybe seeing a co-worker in one of those cars. You smile and think to yourself: "I'll get there before you do!"
It's just great! Too bad B, D, & Q trains crawl at 25 MPH or less across the Manhattan Bridge.
Same thing with light rail trains cruising along Santa Fe Drive at 55 mph while vehicular traffic crawls along.
Speaking of which, I drove by the southern terminus yesterday, and noticed RTD has put up an information sign on the southwest corner of Mineral and Santa Fe denoting parking status, no doubt in response to all the complaints received about lack of parking. It's one of those 3-line electronic message signs you see at construction zones, and it was displaying: RTD LOT FULL.
(RE: Manny B) They still beat the cars in many cases (rush hour)! Same with the Willy B. That's why I prefer the bridges. It must've been hell for the motorists with both sides open, trains passing by at 20 MPH to both sides of you, so often you forget they're trains and attempt to change into the fast moving lane...
What? 20mph so slow? Why not at least 40mph? or perhaps 50mph? Our Muni Metro system runs at 50mph through their longest tunnel and the Bay Area Rapid Transit zips through the tube at 80mph and 70mph on some elevated structures.
Well, we go up to 60 in our river tubes, but you have a grade of about 200 feet to fight on the way up, and timers on the way down to keep you from speeding through the station on either end.
How about riding Bart along the Freeways at 70mph on both sides of the bay, and the traffic standing still, Can t wait until they extend it to the airportin SFO
The most exciting part is on the Dublin line between Castro Valley and Dublin/Pleasanton station.
The fun part is when passing by the Hayward yard. Unless changing operators, trains zip by at high speed, even on switches and cross-overs. Surely it's noisy and vibrating, a lot of people do fear derailment, which did happened near Lafayette station (forgot when, but not long ago).
The most irritating part is the downtown Oakland junction and the elevated structure in Daly City, where tight curves (extremely tight ones) and numerous switches/cross-overs limit trains to 15-20mph.
The Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges are quite old. The whole thing would shake if a 600'-long train went flying along at 50 mph. If you are not a New Yorker it is good to remember a good rule of thumb: everything runs slower, takes longer, and costs more in NYC. So going over the Bridges on a 20 mph train may seem slow in other parts of the country, but it is better than driving at 10 mph in dense and tense traffic in NYC.
Things are faster in New York, especially compared to slow, small cow towns elsewhere in the country (or even the state).
Ever heard of a New York Minute?
We got stuck in a big traffic jam on the Williamsburg Bridge once. It took maybe an hour to get from mid span to the Manhattan end. I lost count of how many subway trains went by. Naturally, I found myself wishing I could be on one of them.
Yeah but try to find a parking space after 8am on the Orange line anywhere west of Balston, and there you have to pay
Building additional parking facilities is a comparatively cheap proposition.
with apologies to the original-- "billions for transit, not one cent for highways" (defense, tribute--in response to Barbary Pirate demands)
A very one-sided and flawed attitude.
08/10/2000
"Some idiots have even suggested the subway be removed so the ROW can be reclaimed for automobiles."
Oh really? Let's say for the sake of argument, this was done. How much faster would rush hour traffic move with the addition of one lane?
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be completely jammed within the first hour it was open.
What amazes me about the DC burbs is how, in spite of the horrendous traffic, they just keep planting new subdivisions everywhere they can but doing nothing about road capacity and other infrastructure issues. In the same vein, I know a number of people here in the District whose lives revolve around areas served by Metro, but who wouldn't be caught dead riding the subway. So, they drive every where they're going, complain about how awful DC is to get around or find parking, and are perpetually late for everything. Just as in NYC, the fastest way around DC is still usually by subway.
>> but doing nothing
about road capacity and other infrastructure issues.<< Au contraire, in fact I 270 in Montgomery County exemplifies the futility of highway construction. Extra lanes were built during the 90's with a hoped for ten year breathing period for the highway. Guess again, opened the lanes--the parking lot just got bigger. In fact considering the delays during construction, the entire project was counterproductive both instantly and over the long haul. While as someone raised there, I am pleased Metro is getting more riders--now we need 24/7 service and flat fares.
I-270 is one thing. It's a "long haul" highway route, which makes it easy to justify the expenditure and the land for the expansion was available. OTOH, the local routes like 355 just get worse and worse. I've been going to a client over on Piccard Drive in Rockville (Metro to Shady Grove and <10 minute Ride On from there) for most of this year, and it's noticeably more congested at the intersection of 355 & Redland where that huge King Farm development is going on. Just the few hundred units that have opened are messing things up pretty bad. Add that to all the other residential and retail that has opened all along 355 over the past few years, and you have a 355 that just crawls along most of the day. It's the same story for Rt. 7 -- and not just around Tysons anymore.
When I moved to DC in the early 90s, the really bad congestion on 7 was pretty much limited to the area between 66 and McLean. Now, it's awful the entire run between Alexandria and Leesburg. Metro service for the area won't come on line fast enough, IMO.
DC's highway design is without a doubt the worst in the United States, mainly because of the hubris of the area's planners that everyone wants to go into Washington. After the Beltway, there are no east-west connecting roads across the Potomac all the way up to Point of Rocks, which means all the traffic has to funnel onto 7 heading into Tyson's corner -- except for those who are willing to endure the twisting shortcut of 193 or pay for a one-exit trip on the Dulles Toll Road.
The situation in the south is even worse, since the Beltway crosses a drawbridge over the Potomac there, and the problem is compounded by the fact that most of the parking lots at the distant stations on the Metro have already reached their capacity, forcing drivers onto the highways more just to find a way to get to the subway.
Fortunately, I don't have to deal with Washington traffic very often. I would become the poster child for road rage if I had to do a regular commute by car. I mainly work from home, 3 blocks from the Dupont Circle Station. Almost all of my local clients are near Metro, or easy to reach from it, paying visits on them is pretty much hassle-free. There's a great pleasure in being able to get some extra work done on a notebook or reading on a subway train zipping past those poor souls sitting in their cars on 66 or 355. Perhaps I should be a bit more gracious and wave to them now and then.
Even with that design, there still is no highway access from the north to DC and no highway through DC.
When I stayed in Potomac, MD, we had to take the American Legion Bridge to Virginia and then take the GW Parkway for the fastest route into the city.
The GW is better now that they've got most of the construction completed.
One other thing DC did that messed up their highway system was to allow public pressure to win out and block the orignially planned route for I-95, from it's meeting with the Beltway near College Park on south on a route mostly along North Capitol Street to the downtown area. The tunnel beneath the Mall was completed 30 years ago, but just dead ends now at New York Ave., and evnetually, the governemtn gave up, redesignated that stretch I-395 and stuck the I-95 label on the east side loop of the Beltway, jamming even more traffic on that overcrowded route.
Memphis, Tenn., is the only other city I know that blocked an Interstate from going through town and forced it onto the already-built loop. Driving through there during rush hour isn't a whole lot of fun, either.
My but this thread has drifted from its original topic!
Anyway, Boston is another city where I-95 was not allowed to run through, and forced onto the MA 128 beltway.
:)Andrew
It wouldn't be much faster at all, considering the road would be jammed with extra cars driven by the people who used to ride the train ...
Those dumbasses will probably get their barriers, too. I gotta ride this before some idiot promises to have these thing put up if he gets elected.
I dropped Metro a feedback saying they should not only reject barriers on the Orange Line, they should consider a few quick toots on their horns every now and then to make sure the stopped traffic knows the trains are flying past. I also suggested they put banners on the fences between the road & ROW reminding drivers they wouldn't be sitting there reading the sign if they were on the subway.
Actually, at the moment, Metro isn't hurting for ridership. They've been doing about 600K trips a day on the subway for a few months now. The unfortunate part is no one expected