PLEASE NOTE:
Due to many requests, I am making the following changes:
The time has been changed from 10 to 10:30 and we are meeting at the TOKEN BOOTH not on the platform.
Date: Sunday March 12, 2000
Time: 10:30 AM
Place: By the TOKEN BOOTH at 63rd Drive Station (Queens Blvd IND line)
Hope to see you all there.
-Mark W.
Is there only one token booth at that station?
I hope so....If not, It is a Sunday, Only the main one would be open anyway. I'll check it out tomorrow. Thanks for reminding me.
-Mark W.
I've seen two O-L-D cards recently that many of you may not have.
1. Triplex 10.5 MIL, that's the paper/plastic gold card. There has been a PLAIN version comming out of a ATM at one of the local banks. 10.5 MIL was one of the test versions ... maybe some old stock that they are using up ?
2. Paper/Mag Transfer ... again maybe some old stock that looks like in some Jamaica Bus coaches. "MetroCard - Transfer" vs. "MetroCard - Bus Transfer".
I, of course, have some to trade if you can't get one. E-mail me off line if you're interested. I seem to only have the standard version of the Single Ride (green) MC, so if you want to trade for that drop me a line.
Mr t__:^)
There was mentioned in a thread the Three Kings Kosher Deli. Does anyone know the exact address?
First, It's Four Kings Kosher Deli.
The address is: 19 W45th Street Between 5th & 6th Avenues. (Three doors from the Red Caboose) They are open M-TH 8-8, F 8-3
Don't waste your time going. I took an F train there a few weeks ago, based on reading a post here (I had a yen for real pastrami), when I got there they had no pastrami in fact the whole deli section wasn't even open! (What kind of kosher deli doesn't have pastrami!) It was lunch time and there were about 2 customers in the place and they looked like they were about 2 days away from going out of business. Save your token!
Peace,
Andee
Oh Boy, here we go with the Deli Again. I hope they still have that Deli In Hong Kong. That will be my Saturday Night Dinner
Remember old HUMANS: The Deli Best?
NOTICE:
From this message on, e-mail is BOARSHEVIK@metrocard.cjb.net
This message will be used to announce e-mail changes.
This news is not new to subtalkers, but last night Fox 25 news here in Boston confirmed that Acela express may be delayed until July because the trains shipping has been delayed by a month.
On a lighter note, I've been hearing some more positive feedback on Acela Regional. Looks like Amtrak is actually working (or has worked out) most of the bugs, and is now an efficient service, at least by Amtrak standards :) -Nick
/*This news is not new to subtalkers, but last night Fox 25 news here in Boston confirmed that Acela express may be delayed until July
because the trains shipping has been delayed by a month*/
And technical glitches too. I seriously don't believe the sets will enter service in July, in fact, I don't think we'll be seeing acela express anything before maybe september or october the earliest.
Actualy, given how much of a headache the HHL-8s, and the express sets are, it's a wonder that amtrak's letting the same clownat Alsthom rebuild the AEM-7, which despite it's age is a perfectly viable locomotive.
/*On a lighter note, I've been hearing some more positive feedback on Acela Regional. Looks like Amtrak is actually working (or has worked
out) most of the bugs, and is now an efficient service, at least by Amtrak standards :) -Nick */
In other words, the NEC finally has the same kind of rail service that Europeans have been enjoying since the early 1950's? :)
In an earlier post - Philip Nasadowski commented -
""In other words, the NEC finally has the same kind of rail service that Europeans have been enjoying since the early 1950's? :)""
The above comment was in relation to the launch of ACELA regional service.
FWIW - I have been to Europe about 15 times over the last ten years. Perhaps European train service was exceptional quality during the 1950s. But the 1990s in Europe were nothing to brag about. In Italy - missed connections and late trains have been a frequent occurence. Bureaucrats in a booth (read ticket agents) are less than helpful. On train personnel - uncommunicative.
In the Netherlands - most trains arrive and depart on time - but with few if any services (i.e. cafe car) and speeds rarely exceed 80MPH - same as most AMTRAK disel MAS.
As for cost - AMTRAK has virtually anyplace in Europe beat as they are far less expensive for distances covered than European counterparts - except for short haul (say 50 miles or less) trips.
If AMTRAK has European trains beat in terms of cost and customer service and has nearly matching track speeds in many cases - why hold up European service as a model??
The only point where European service has AMTRAK whipped is frequency of trains. European train service is much better in this area. But it's really the only area where the masses are served in a superior way to AMTRAK.
I think that most people see the Europeans so far ahead because of their advancements in high speed rail in certain corridors, specifically the TGV-Eurostar-Thalys trains. Those are the trains that get the press, so it's only logical that we look to Amtrak to hold TGV-style service as a goal. But you're right, no one knows or hears about the rest of the train services over there...
Here's a specific example of European rail service between two major cities - Amsterdam and Hamburg.
* Only one train a day makes this trip and it requires a change of trains in an obscure city.
* The distance traveled is 310 miles and is covered in about 6 hours - an average of about 51 MPH.
* The fare for this trip is virtually same as Amtrak would charge for same distance.
I think it's a good example of the European train service that most long haul rail travelers in Europe experience.
The data below was copied directly from a European rail travel site.
Check it out yourselves. European rail service is right up there with Amtrak when it comes to true main stream service:
From
AMSTERDAM CS
To
HAMBURG HBF
First class fare
$118.00
Second class fare
$80.00
Average travel time
6 hours
Distance
497 km / 310 miles
For a while, 9411 was coupled to 9348. This morning leading the Flushing Local to Times Square, 9411 was once again happily married to 9410. Good to see her back. Haven't seen 9348-9349 yewt, but I bet they'll be reunited too.
R36Gary
Did they sign a pre-nuptual agreement? Who gets custody of the air compressor?
Sounds like Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice to me.-)
Nah, those are the R32s.
Wayne
That would be Felix and Oscar then.
Sort of: #3348 is Oscar, #3549 is Felix.
Wayne
9348-9349 were in Coney Island Shop last week being married again.
Speaking of O/S cars, you might want to consider scratching off 9500 and 9501 as the first of the R36 fleet to be "dishonorably discharged". Their fires at Spring St did damage considerable of main shop repair and this late in the game with new deliveries coming soon, they are being stripped. The first of the last are going.
Dah, dah ta-da, dah da-dah ta-da, ta-da....
OK, they both will get an orange box.
Wayne
#9410 had a minor injury to his anti-climber; #9349 had some smoke or fire damage I hear, nothing that serious.
Wayne
No. 9410 got hit by 9349. Both had anticlimber damage.
At least it wasn't a BMT standard.-)
03/01/2000
Darva Conger should have such luck !!
Bill Newkirk
If I am going to complain, then I also have to acknowledge when something good happens.
The subway map on the MTA site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm), which formerly had several errors, has been corrected. All of the service information is current, and -- most importantly -- The Brooklyn-Queens border is now shown in the right place.
However, there are some interesting things on this map concerining stations' secondary names.
The online map restores some (not all) of the secondary names that the official printed map no longer shows.
For example, the two stops on the J train which the official map now labels as "75 St" and "85 St" are shown on the online map as they used to be shown on earlier editions of the printed map: "75 St-Elderts La" and "85 St-Forest Pkwy".
Also, the online map once again shows "Queens Mall" as a secondary name for the Woodhaven Blvd. stop on the G and R. The most recent printed map calls this stop simply "Woodhaven Blvd", after years of having listed the stop's secondary name of either "Queens Mall" or "Slattery Plaza".
However, this map does not restore the name "Continental Av" to the stop that is now called "Forest Hills-71 Av". I still don't get this decision. As I mentioned a while ago, I think that the "Continental Avenue" portion of 71st Avenue extends all the way to Queens Blvd.; others have maintained that it ends one block earlier at Austin St. Either way, this name is too well-known to be dropped, in my opinion.
Alas, the purely "historical" secondary names -- such as "Rawson", "Bliss", "Beebe", "Boyd", "Hudson", and "Oxford" -- have not been restored, and seem to be gone for good. I would guess that "Continental" was dropped because it was lumped with these names. However, this is a mistake, since "Continental Avenue" is a *current* name, not a historical one.
Finally, in another throwback to an earlier edition of the printed map, the online map shows the J train station that is now known as "104 St." under the name it formerly carried, "104-102 Sts".
Anyway, nice going on the MTA webmaster's part to fix the map. I hope that it indicates that the next edition of the printed map will once again show some of the secondary names.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I live in Forest Hills and the Sign on the corner of Queens Blvd says
both 71st Ave / Continental Ave
We got the opposite in DC. Our names are now longer. We now have Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams-Morgan and West Falls Church/VT-UVA.
What exactly are the rules about subway-bus and bus-subway transfers?
How does the card "know" that you are allowed to do this? What's the time limit?
In what instances is it most useful?
Will there ever be subway-subway transfers for free transfers among close lines that are not official transfers? (I couldn't even do this with an unlimited ride metrocard when I tried.)
You have a 2 hour period from the point you paid the first fare to make the transfer. When the card is swiped thru a turnstile or dipped in a bus fare box a transfer is encoded on the magnetic strip as well as the date and time. When you make your transfer this data is read in. If you are within the 2 hour window then the farebox/turnstile will read "Transfer OK". If you miss the window then $1.50 will be deducted from your card.
It is most useful when you live in what used to be a 2 fare zone(bus to subway).
Subway to subway transfers? I wonder why they would be necessary since there are major free tranfer points where you can transfer to other lines (e.g. Times Square, 59 St-Lex Av, 51 St/53 St to name a couple).
At some point they will remove the 18 minute waiting period on the unlimiteds (except at the same station that you are entering the system).
[At some point they will remove the 18 minute waiting period on the unlimiteds (except at the same station that you are entering the system).]
Just in case you didn't completely understand what Allen was refering to here ... with an "Unlimited" MC you get free transfers between subway lines too, provide there has been 18 minutes between the turnstile useage.
If you're are a occasional bus/subway user the 24 hour fun pass is the best value at $4.00 for one person all day travel until 3 AM. Other unlimited MCs expire at Midnight so hang onto your glass slippers.
Mr t__:^)
Last Year on April 30th, a gas out was staged across the USA to bring the price of gas down, and it worked. Its timne to do something about it again. Only this time lets make it for 3 days instead of 1. The so-called oil cartel decided to slow production to drive up the gas prices. Saudi Arabia alone is making a additional $135 million dollars A DAY since this has taken effect. Lets see how many Americans we can get to ban together for a 3 day period in April. NOT TO BUY ANY GASD, during those three days. LETS HAVE A GAS OUT. DO NOT BUY ANY GASOLINE FROM APRIL 7 through APR 9, 2000. Buy what you need before or after, but try not to buy anything during the Gas Out. If you want help to help, just send this to everyone you know and ask them to do the same. We brought the prices down once before, and we can do it again. WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE::::::::::::::
Remember, adjusted for inflation the cost of a barrel of oil is down 50 percent from the peak. Oil and gasoline may not be as cheap as before, but they are not high by any means.
The past half-decade has seen a lot of bad habits creep back in. Fuel economy has started to turn downward, thanks to the SUVs, carpooling has almost disappeared, etc. etc. Fortunately, transit systems have been kept up of even expanded, but outside the New York area the employed population has moved even further away from the places where transit is. In short, most people just aren't thinking about energy conservation anymore.
So while I have some sympathy for those who really got nailed by the oil heat spike (which seemed higher than the increase in oil prices at the well) I don't see current fuel prices as damaging. Further increases WOULD be damaging, and are made more likely by fuelish decisions.
Aww hell, I'm gonna go home and gas my bike up those days just to tick the gas out crowd.
If you don't like paying for gas, get an efficient car, and stop driving everywhere.
Otherwise, shut up and deal with it.
I've yet to meet anyone who's had a gun held to their head and been forced to buy a Navigator.
You got a car that gets 10 mpg. Dump it, or shut up about the cost of gas.
Sorry for sounding so abrasive guys, but I've been hearing this from everyone on campus for the last few months, and frankly, I'm sick of it.
If you don't like paying for gas, get an efficient car, and stop driving everywhere.
And if you want a really efficient car, buy a hybrid, such as the
Insight. 70mpg highway, 60mpg city.
CH.
(If you want really good mileage, buy a Hybrid car)
I've got a three year old Saturn Wagon with 20,000 miles on it, and I plan to keep it until it dies. On that basis, I'm hoping the next car I buy will be a really high mileage/low pollution vehicle. Hopefully in 10 to 15 years there will be some real change.
If gasoline prices stay high enough for people to care.
Who do you work for Standard Oil? I have no choice, My car gets 30MPG, but there is no public transportation where I live. Also we pay 30 cents a gallon more then you do in NYC. We are being ripped off, and it is time to put up or shut up. If you don t have a car, then it does not concern you
But your problem is one of location. Everything's more expensive in the islands, not just gas. Sure, I hate paying the ridiculous price for heating oil that I had to this last tankful, and it irks me that gas is $1.379, but all the vehicles in our family fleet are reasonable compromises between fuel economy and utility - no SUVs but no tin cans either. Not buying gas on one (or three) particular days will only shift the volume to other days, it won't affect total consumption.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(We pay 30 cents a gallon more than in NYC)
Where do YOU live? With our high gas prices, high land prices, and ban on certain kinds of tank trucks, I thought our gas prices were number one.
Time to raise the fuel tax.
Bob lives in the Hawaiian islands. What you get in beauty and climate, you pay for in every other way as everything needs to be shipped over there.
Same here Phil. Its just another urban legend/email forwarding thing anyway just to see how far it will go. I vowed never to forward any of those. I only forward jokes. By the way, Phil, do you go to the Blue Knights Bike Blessing in Suffolk in April?
i don't believe in that gas out either sarge--- although if the nypd were to ground all its gas guzzling cars and send out the patrols on bicycles and horses, that might make a powerful statement to the oil companies--- if there aren't enough bikes or horses, perhaps they could use rollerskates or skateboards--- just a thought ( i'm getting desperate for material )
Material solution - employ better writers.
All seriousness aside, gas-outs don't really work, just hurt the little guy who's the dealer - he doesn't set prices, the oil companies do, and unsold gas @ 1.28, sold to you @ 1.15 is a 13 cent/gal loss to him. A local Baltimore dealer I buy from has no pay-at-pumps. Why? Because he can't make money on gas, and if he had pay-at pump nobody would come inside pay and buy coffee, munchies, lottery, cigarettes.
That's how he stays in business.
I buy gas once a month. Take transit to work, car is only used for short trips (store, BSM). Wife uses her car, drives 3.2 miles to work.
She has newer car, gas fill-ups every 6 days or so.
Out here in Oregon unleaded goes for $1.47 and super for $1.58,it's been around this level from last Sept,but people still buy the big pickups and suv's also does anyone have meter ramps to the freeways...er highways..sorry we don't have tolls here yet,but meter ramps are the entrance ramps to the highways but they have a set of traffic lights that controls two lanes of traffic,each car is allowed to go when the light is green it only goes from red to green so the cars are metered to merge into the traffic,the traffic dept says this helps with congestion but it gets people mad,the fines are steep if you get caught,they only work durring the rush hours and are off on weekends...it's comming to a city near you.
Maryland is experimenting with meter ramps on the Capitol Beltway (I-495), where backups occur 24 hours a day. Closest thing we have to Left Coast traffic. Makes the Baltimore Beltway at rush hour look like a kindergarten playgound. The daily Towson backup on I-695 is irritating enough. When I worked in Frederick, I avoided the Towson area by using one of four alternates. Hit Towson eastbound after 6PM and the backup goes away.
Now I work downtown, and that's 38 minutes from home by express bus.
The LIE, Northern State/Grand Central, and the Van Wyck have them but they are used only during certain times.
They could ride hippos or rather large pigs. We'll have our best people (pigs) on it. We use this to get the trust of the humans so we could get really close and stab them in the back. Beware of pigs bearing (pigging) gifts.
PIGSIDENT, PIG MINISTER
UNITED SWINES OF HAMERICA
IN PIG WE TRUST
I can't - I'm stuck up here in Hartford now :(
I *do* get spring break to myself (bike's going to Rolling Thunder next week actually, for it's 10k checkout), but after that, back up here. A much as I'd *LOVE* to have it up here, I have no secure parking for it. That'll be fixed hopefully in another month or two (I'm hoping to co-op at pratt and Whittney this summer). I had my bike up here last summer (summerterm class), and it inadvertantly became the topic of the faculty*, as I rode it to class (yes, even on those rainy days). Something about parking a big black and chrome Harley out front the school in the faculty lot......
*I'm not kidding either, people were litterally stopping into the office wondering who's bike it was - UHA might be a bit big, but Ward's a tiny school, and everyone knows each other. Now if only we could get rid of those pesky art students....
UHA - is that the University of Hartford, by any chance?
Yeah :(
Remember what happened during the Arab oil embargo? Demand for small cars went through the roof. Dealers were quoting 16-week lead times for Ford Pintos and other subcompacts. Same thing in 1979 when Iran cut off oil exports to the US, although that amounted to a mere fraction of the total we were importing. I'm willing to bet that if this keeps up much longer, people may start thinking twice about that SUV or other boat they may have had their sights set on.
Our Southwest Corridor line will be opening not a moment too soon...
This "Gas Out" thing doesn't do one ounce of harm to the oil companies!~ It's just a fart in a windstorm.
Think about it. If you drive to work every day, do the same routine errands, etc., you're still using the same amount of fuel. You're going to have to buy fuel no matter what.
If you REALLY want to tell the oil companies something -- STOP DRIVING AND USING FUEL!!
I did not say stop driving, just do not buy on those 3 days, buy before, buy after.
That's exactly why it won't make a difference. If the oil companies are smart, they'll raise gas prices the day before and day after the gasout.
Actually, if they don't see a gas out coming, the fueling up before the gas out might create a shortage.
One book I highly recommend is The Prize, the history of the oil industry (D. Yergin). According to Yergin, part of the 1979 gas crisis was sheer panic. Expecting gas lines and soaring prices, everyone in the country decided to fuel up as often as possible. The average car went from having 1/4 tank of gas to 3/4 tank, and that demand surge was enough to set the crisis off.
That's when stations started imposing a $5.00 minimum purchase to prevent people from topping off their tanks. This is not to be confused with the $2.00 and $3.00 limits which were encountered, or limited hours of pumps being open. There was a story about some guy who pulled into a gas station and ended up buying 11 cents worth of gas. He even wanted to charge it.
The funny thing is, I don't ever remember having to wait in line during either of those episodes, nor did I ever resort to topping off the tank. I still don't; often times I'll be running on fumes when the times comes to gas up again.
That's the one big advantage of my van - depending on the driving conditions, I can go up to 750 miles between fill-ups.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Think abou it, that's still as stupid as can be. If you want to hurt the oil companies (HA! Fat chance...) you cut down your total driving volume. You don't just shift your purchase to before or after those days. If you do, you're STILL using the same amount of the oil companies' products if you buy before or after.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. This whole "Gas-Out" thing is just another foolish thing the Internet has furthered...and those foolish enough to believe it, well, I think there's a bridge in Brooklyn they might want to buy too. Anyone with a brain can figure it out.
"Anyone with a brain can figure it out."
That pretty much rules out the City Council doesn't it?
Slow down!
That Speed Limit, whether it's 55 ,65 or anything else is the TOP Speed limit. You don,t have to do the limit or 5 ,10, or 15 above the limit.If you must go by car, enjoy the trip, and find dividends in the tank,tires,cooling sys,and blood pressure. You will consume less and begin to force a surplus . DRIVERS UNITE, slow down and stick in to BIG OIL.
(Slow down to save oil)
There is another product of the 1970s that has bit the dust recently, the 55 mile per hour speed limit. If the Transit Authority system safety department was in charge of highway speeds, the limit would be 40 miles per hour, and we'd have plenty of gas.
Actually, don't faster speeds save gasoline?
Actually, don't faster speeds save gasoline?
No. The mean optimum speed for fuel economy on a straight, level, dry road is somewhere in the 45 mph range. 55 mph isn't significantly different for a normal passenger car (trucks and SUVs actually do fall off measurably even at 55 due to wind resistance), but above 55 mph there is a measurable decrease in fuel economy - the difference between 55 mph and 75 mph is 15% or more for a passenger car, 25% or more for a semi, even with advances in technology over the past 25 years. It's all a factor of rolling resistance, wind resistance, and internal driveline friction and the amount of fuel that must be consumed to overcome these factors. Some vehicles have higher optimum speeds, of course, and some lower, but statistically most vehicles fall into that range. Hills, curves, and weather conditions also factor in, but they tend to affect all vehicles in proportion, so the straight, level, dry pavement figure is still a good working number.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then you have power plants.
VW Turbodiesel Vs gasoline engin is similar platforms have an edge.
Hate to say it, but my '95 Ford Ranger with the supercab and 4-cylinder (gutless wonder) engine does better at the higher speeds. I've driven from home to San Diego (about a hundred miles) and back at 55-60 and then other times (like the other day...) at 70-75, and got back with a lot more gas in the tank at the higher speeds. I guess with the gutless factor of the engine, if you get the thing rolling, it doesn't take much more "oomph" to get up the gentle grades of I-5!!
I have found that cruise control can hurt economy more than help it. That gizmo is trying to maintain a steady speed, and if you're climbing hills or gentle slopes, it'll kick the throttle open to maintain speed. I tried using my cruise control once while driving through Nebraska, and even though I was doing 75 mph heading eastbound, which is basically downhill, I had the all-time worst average for a tank of gas my Jeep ever had. That was it - I didn't use it for the rest of my trip, and my mileage was much better.
You'd encounter a LOT of opposition to the 55 mph speed limit out in this part of the country, especially with all the wide open space in, say, Utah or Nevada.
Heck, there's a lot of opposition to it here in New Jersey too. I probably shouldn't admit it, but on more than one occasion I've been flowing with traffic on the Garden State during the morning rush (I drive exit 105 to 114) and have glanced down at the big digital speedometer in my Windstar and been staring at 87 mph. Fortunately, most of the time traffic flows between 70 and 75 and even that's too fast for me. But I go with the flow rather than have everyone else swerving around me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you know how silly this idea is? Think about it. So I won't buy gas for 3 days. I'll just make sure i have a full tank the day before, and fill it again after. Tell me, I may feel like I accomplished something, but did I really? Also, no one fills up that often except for delivery guys, or folks who have their gas money reimbursed by their company.
Oh, yeah: http://www.snopes.com/spoons/faxlore/gasout.htm.
-Hank
Looking at a map of the New York subway system I am taken by the fact that when he look at the Bronx it seems the trains go awfully close to the edge of the next county, which I believe in Westchester. Is there anyone out there who can tell me just how close to the Westchester County Line the 1 2, 4, 5, and 6 trains are. When I was in New York in 1991 I did ride those trains and I believe the 1, and 4 were very close to the next county. I never did check that out when I visited last summer so I would appreciate any help anyone out there can offer.
241st on the 2 is the furthest north. Not sure how close, though.
According to Delorme's Street Atlas program, the Dyre Ave Station is 662' from the Westchester line. The E. 241st St Station is 1125' from the the line.
But 241 is furthest north.
According to my observation on the Hagstrom NYC Atlas, both E241 Street and Dyre Avenue are both 1213 feet to the border.
Woodlawn is 6809 feet to the border. Van Cortlandt Park is 8157 feet to the border. Far Rockaway is 3800 feet to the border.
Chaohwa
[Far Rockaway is 3800 feet to the border.]
That's about right, as I thought the A Train was the subway line that came closest to one of the suburban counties (Nassau in this case).
3800 is about half a mile (of course all the MTA would have to do is extend the A line alittle more than 1/4 of a mile and it could share a terminal station with the LIRR Far Rockaway branch).
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>3800 is about half a mile (of course all the MTA would have to do is extend the A line alittle more than
1/4 of a mile and it could share a terminal station with the LIRR Far Rockaway branch). <<<
The lines were connected once. They were severed sometime in the 1950s, as the LIRR sold the tracks and ROW to the TA, or what passed for it in 1956. Joe Brennan knows all in this regard...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The San Diego Trolley is 310 feet from the Border Fred, Borders are between 2 seperate countries. You teach Social Studies, You should know. The lines between Westchester and NYC are City Line or County Line, in this case both
There you go splitting hairs once again. Is that what you Hawaiians do, split hairs because you get bored out there? Come on., I was being facetious by calling it a border, though my relatives in Nassau County use the term when describing the line between Queens and their home turf. But since the hairs are now all split I'll take your criticism under advisement. Ever thought of going to work for Al Gore? You might be two peas in a pod, old buddy. Ooops I slipped up again and brought in politics. I'm sure I'll here of it. By the way, those jokes I've been getting at my E-Mail address are hilarious. I'm printing them for my use. I should get a pack of laughs at parties with those.
All you need now is a canned rim shot button....-)
The TA came into being in 1953, so they were very much overseeing things by the time the Rockaway line opened.
The #1 train at 242nd, is over a mile from the county line. Almost the same distance for the #4.
The White Plains Road line is just about right on the county line. I believe the Dyre Avenue line is pretty darn close too.
The #6 line, I'd say is the farthest, way down below Pelham Parkway.
Dyre Avenue is the closest - about 600 feet or so. There is a fence at the county line, visible from the platform - at least there was when I was last there (1998).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
w225 is close to the bronx/manhattan "county" border...
Hello. I am a Railfan from New York City .I enjoy riding New York's best Commuter RailRoad, the Long Island Railroad. Anyway, I was wondering, How does an Engineer work 4 Amtrak? I mean, How do they do your hours? Do they make u work 5 days a week and come home weekends? Also, If u were the son or Daughter of an Amtrak Engineer, how often would you C ur Father or Mother? Is it worth it Working for Amtrak? Also one final question. My last experience with Amtrak was when I rode in a car to Virginia to Take the Auto Train number 53 to Sanford Florida. That was the First time I ever saw a P32-DM Genesis B4 in My life. If Amtrak brought alot of Genesis Locomotives, What did they do with the F40PH's? Also The Train left Virginia with 2 Crew in the Locomotive. One Engineer and a Brakeman. The Train left at 8:00 and then stopped in North Carolina for a Crew Change. How did the Crew members go to the bathroom? Please Email me your Response or Post one in the Room. Email is E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com Thank you. By the way New York City Railfans today is MTA's 32nd B-Day!
Well, I'm not (nor ever have been) a railroad employee, but I can answer two of your questions, in no particular order:
First, most modern diesel road locomotives have a bathroom in them, and I'm sure Amtrak's are no exception to that general rule. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that all road locomotives purchased new by Amtrak have had one.
Second, Amtrak engineers, like engineers on all the major railroads, bid for their runs based on seniority. They are often away overnight, sometimes longer. Some engineers on the NEC, I would assume, are able to obtain runs that bring them home every night - NYP to Washington DC and return.
You also asked if it was worth it to work for Amtrak. To that I will say that, like every job, there are tradeoffs. I'll speak from my own experience in that regard. I have often worked long hours, partially because I was dedicated to my job, part of the time because I also had a business to run in addition to my regular job, and now because my job requires me to be on call 24x7. However, I have never wanted to have a job where I didn't come home to my family every night. In January of 1996 I took a temporary assignment in New Jersey, leaving my family in North Carolina for what I thought would be three months, six months tops. Well, guess what? It's now over four years later and I'm still here. "Temporary" became permanent in late 1997 and my wife and younger son joined me here when school started in the fall of 1998. For me those years of long-distance commuting were the most miserable of my life. But not everyone feels the same way. My son-in-law is a truck driver, away from home for two or three days at a time, sometimes even longer with the new company he's working for now. He loves it - he's happy up there in the cab of his rig, and can't stand the thought of doing anything else (and believe me, he's tried and failed a couple of times). He's also a very loving and devoted husband and father who makes the most of the time he has with my daughter and their children. So you have to look at yourself and your relationship with those around you and decide "is this the type of life for me?" Only you can answer that question, and it's a hard one. Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About the locomotives, if you only look at the numbers Amtrak had ~210 F40's and it has bought ~163 P40/P42 replacements. Given that Amtrak prefers to run its trains with two locomotives (ie what used to be 2 F40's is now 2 P40's) you can see how there would be a locomotive gap. From what I have seen, Amtrak has eliminated at about half of its F40 fleet already and the rest will go once more new F59's and AEM-7's become available, but also remember that Amtrak is expanding its service so you never know.
Trains Magazine a few issues back had a complete roster of the Amtrak F40s and where they are now. I'll take a look at it again and give you a summary of what's in it. Two of the F40s were bought by the MTA and painted in Metro-North colors for west of Hudson service. I saw one of these at Hoboken a few days ago.
Railfan also ran a roster in the last issue. 52 or 53 (I lost count) are still in active passenger service on Amtrak as of December 1999, most on the NEC. Three more are in work service; the remainder have either been stored, converted to cab-baggage, scrapped, or leased to other railroads. Only two are listed as having been sold, units 363 and 379, now Tri-Rail 810 and 811. Units 370 and 382 show as being leased to NJ Transit; perhaps those are the units you have seen at Hoboken for the Port Jervis line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The engine I saw at Hoboken was in Metro-North colors. I'll see if I can find out more about it.
A couple of days ago Amtrak announced it was taking about 45 locomotives out of storage for new services. I assume that those would have to be F40s.
Probably. That's about the total of what they have stored - the rest are "retired" or "scrapped", according to the Railfan roster (other than those leased or converted, as I mentioned in my earlier post).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why hasn't the M train returned to the Brighton Beach local, is it because of the Manhattan Bridge?
I remember when I was little about 5 living on Ocean Ave, getting on the M train sometimes the D to Coney Island with my mother at the Church Ave station.... It looks funny now that the D isn't the Brighton Exp anymore.
Frank D
Yes. The Manhattan Bridge caused the reroute which has been this way for a while now and will stay this way permanantly. See the MannyB FAQ for more info.
Actually, termination of the M line running along the Brighton line had nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge project, even though it coincided with the original AB track closure in 1986. It was removed because the entire Brighton line was undergoing massive repairs and the express tracks were shut down. I would assume it was not returned because the M is a fairly useless line, and the Q train made a much more attractive compliment to the D.
IIRC, the M was extended to Coney Island via the Brighton line in 1973 and became the Brighton local when the QJ was permanently cut back to Broad St. and renamed the J. Back then, the QB was still a rush hour, peak direction-only service.
True, the M was the Brighton local from Jan 1973 to April 1986. A total waste. I remember watching Manhattan bound M trains in the morning fill to capacity stopping at local stations, then completely emptying at express stops so all those people could catch the D. The Q back then ran only for about an hour, every 10 minutes.
Of course, if all those riders were headed for midtown Manhattan, it made sense. I guess they didn't want to wait for a QB or its Q successor.
Watch it, Frank D. or you will have Brighton #1Express Bob all over your case for saying something negative about the D train.
Sea Beach,
I try not to step on the Brighton line, but I think the M could bring back significance to the Brighton line. As it stands today people that live in the Metropolitan Ave areas, have to transfer in Manhattan at Essex st to the F or keep riding and cathc the B. That doesn't make much sense. I can see if the were running the M to coney Island on the B line, and run it local while the B make express stops from Pacific Street to Coney Island peak direction. If not return it to the Brighton line.
Frank D
All the M would do for the Brighton line is further congest it. M service on the Brighton line would neccesitate a cut in D and Q service, which is OUT of the question. The bottleneck between Atlantic and Dekalb would be monumental.
The M would do best if it was rerouted to 95th St.
The M is extremely obselete. It should simply run from Metropolitan to Broad weekdays and Myrtle all other times. Move the Q over to Broadway via the tunnel and make express stops after Canal and then run to Queensbridge. That way, 4th Avenue and Brighton each have at least 1 6th Ave and 1 Broadway service.
not a bad idea. However, the Montague St. tunnel would be severly congested, considering the Q runs on 6 minute headways, and the M on 8.5 minute headways. But it would allow an increase in both B service (compensating for the loss of the M) and D service.
And of course, what do you do with 57th/6th Ave. if the Q is on Bway?
Didn't think of that. V train, I guess. Queensbridge to 2nd Avenue or something like that.
Thats right New York City Railfans. On March 1st 1968, MTA was Created. Today is MTA's 32nd B-Day. Shouts to All Railfans in New York City Reppin' MTA 2 the fullest. MTA till I die!!!!
Let's celebrate by dissolving the MTA and its operating agencies: The Southeast Queens vans would take over Long Island Bus; Green Bus Lines would run Metro-North; and the subway system would be converted to homeless shelters!
the subway system would be converted to homeless shelters
I thought it already was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
03/01/2000
Maybe we can put 32 candles on top of an R-68, throw the controller into multiple and see if candles blow out!
Bill Newkirk
Fat Chance!!!!!
Bill, That's was good, thanks for the smile that came to my face so early in the AM.
Mr t__:^)
The February 2000 edition of The Map is now in circulation.
The only change that I was able to decern was on the panel entitled
About The Map". The background on the December 1999 edition was gray and the background color on the February edition is a light purple.
Hmmm, it's time to write a letter to NYCTA to get these maps.
Chaohwa
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, its time to get to work collecting 600 copies of these things.
Wow! Are you going to sell them at eBay 30 years later? @_@
Chaohwa
Note: @_@ means eyes wide open!
if Ebay survives...
B"H
Anyone know where to get a PDF file of it?
So, I guess this means no change in the secondary names, right?
I was hoping that some would be restored, based on the fact that the map on the MTA site has resumed using a few of them.
Ferdinand Cesarano
If the only change is the date of issuance, why bother printing it at all? Did they just run out of the supply in stock? If that's the reason, they should have just printed some more of the last edition.
Mark Green and Claire Shulman continue to press the MTA about LIRR NYC service. From this week's Times Ledger in Eastern Queens:
By Philip Newman
Queens Borough President Claire Shulman assailed Long Island Rail Road service within Queens as "appalling but not surprising" and Public Advocate Mark Green said it was time for an end to what he called the LIRR’s "premium prices for New York City residents."
Green also suggested that protracted and tortuous commutes such as that of a Queens Village woman who spends 90 minutes getting to work would not be necessary if transit reforms he advocates became reality.
"Not much has changed in the past decade," said Shulman. "The LIRR apparently still feels that the purpose of the tracks in Queens is to transport commuters from Manhattan to Nassau and Suffolk counties."
She said "the condition of the St. Albans station and service in the borough is appalling but not surprising."
Gaping holes in the platform of the dilapidated LIRR station at St. Albans have pose a safety hazard.
Green recently issued a report that said thousands of Queens commuters avoid LIRR trains even when they run near their homes because of high fares and infrequent service.
Thus, thousands of commuters, particularly in southeast Queens, which is not well-served by the subway system, take crowded buses and make transfers to subway lines far from their homes in uncomfortable and time-consuming journeys.
The report also said Queens riders do not get discount fares when traveling from Queens into Nassau County, the way Bronx riders do when traveling to Westchester County on Metro-North trains. Green has also called for cheaper fares within Queens. For example, it now costs $5.50 one-way to take the LIRR from Woodside to Main Street, Flushing.
LIRR riders get a discount when they travel between Nassau and Suffolk counties or within either county.
Shulman used her State of the Borough address in January to call for improved LIRR service in Queens, including reopening of the Elmhurst station. She had previously called for the LIRR to reopen the Union Hall station in Jamaica near York College and for building new stations in Hunters Point and Long Island City.
Shulman said it was an old story.
"The abandonment of Queens by the LIRR began more than 30 years ago," Shulman wrote to LIRR President Charles Hoppe in 1991.
The letter was included in a "Stations of Shame" report in which Shulman cited the closing of 14 LIRR stations in Queens, charging that many of the deserted stations became trash dumping grounds and hangouts for youths.
"How can we be smarter about taking advantage of the transit and transportation system we already have, smarter about expanding it and smarter about making lives of New Yorkers easier, safer, calmer, no matter how they are traveling?" Green asked n a speech to the New York University Center for Transportation Policy and Management Tuesday.
"If we do our job right, Laurice Bembry, a Queens Village resident who works as an account representative at New York Hospital, will no longer take a 90-minute trip home via the 6, the F and the Q85 lines," Green said. "Instead, she will use her MetroCard to take the Long Island Rail Road - perhaps renamed, more appropriately, the City and Long Island Rail Road - cutting 60 minutes on every trip."
Green called for an end to "the premium prices the Long Island Rail Road charges New York City residents, where city residents pay three times the price for the same service."
He also said his office had sought to end the government monopoly that provides non-competitive franchises and public subsidies to so-called ‘private" bus lines in Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens.
"Competition or an MTA takeover would lead to better service," Green said.
Joseph Rappaport, transit adviser for the public advocate, said one problem might be that there is no one from New York City sitting on LIRR committees although the city provides $69 million annually for the LIRR and Metro-North commuter lines.
Assemblyman William Scarborough (D-St.Albans) said it was time for the LIRR to look at fares within Queens in particular to "give a more equitable situation to the people of the borough."
"It is disturbing to discover how Queens people are being short-changed in this way," Scarborough said. "A reduction in fares and greater frequency of service would relieve the overcrowding on buses and cut the time people spend traveling."
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, of which the Long Island Rail Road is a part, did not respond to a request for comment.
---------------------------------------------------
While the sorry condition of several LIRR Queens stations is well known, the part about a $5.50 fare between Woodside and Main St. is pretty funny. $5.50 is too high, but you can walk upstairs and board a redbird for $1.50 and change to a Northern Blvd. bus for points east for no extra charge...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Mark Green called for an end to the bus monopolies)
Does that mean he is in favor of more private vans? School vouchers? Allowing new supermarkets in poor neighborhoods without five years of lawsuits and red tape. It would be nice if Mark Green were really against monopolies. Mr. T take the hint, he just wants a contribution to his campaign.
(Off peak discounts for Queens to Nassau Commuters)
I'm sure Nassau would be in favor. I was told by a member of the Long Island Planning Commission that they love city to suburb commuters because they allow low-wage jobs to be filled without having the moderate income workers actually live in Nassau, where they would be "inappropriate." And they prefer mass transit for these workers, so they don't take up space on Nassau's roads.
But the LIRR doesn't want city to suburb commuters because of the two-track problem others have mentioned. Taking people out isn't a way to fill empty seats on trains heading north to start their second run in. It is a special trip that limits express service.
[The letter was included in a "Stations of Shame" report in which Shulman cited the closing of 14 LIRR stations in Queens, charging that many of the deserted stations became trash dumping grounds and hangouts for youths.]
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's. And as far as the closed stations being dumping grounds and hang-out places is concerned, that's rather hard to reconcile with the fact that almost all of the closed stations have been obliterated. Somehow, I don't think anyone's hanging around in the Rego Park or Springfield Gardens stations :-)
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations). The Queens stations along the Port Washington line have more-than-adequate service, as do Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and of course Jamaica. The SE Queens stations don't have quite as many trains, but they do have enough service to make commuting feasible and compare favorably to many Nassau and Suffolk stations. High fares? Well, I can't deny that the fares aren't cheap, but it's best to look at the LIRR in much of Queens as being the high-priced option. You want reasonably quick service at a rather high price, take the LIRR. If you want lower fares, though with a slower trip, take the subway/bus combo. Most Nassau and all Suffolk riders have no such option - it's the LIRR or nothing.
Realistically speaking the LIRR is just not able to serve large numbers of Queens commuters. The LIRR in Queens was constructed years ago, mostly before the consolidation of NYC in 1898, when Queens was a rural community. Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into some kind of hero.
>>>Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau
and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive
into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into
some kind of hero. <<<
I would agree with you about the LIRR being primarily a rush hour mover of Nassau and Suffolk commuters. However, I would hold the LIRR to at least the pretense of serving Queens customers; that would mean fixing the crumbling, and occasionally dangerous, platforms and staircases at stations like St. Albans and Broadway. Hollis and St. Albans commuters, few though they may be, deserve at least that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Station maintenance is paid for by the localities involved. Every year, Nassau and Suffolk Counties receive bills from the LIRR. When Suffolk refused to pay for maintenance of some stations several decades ago, the LIRR tore the station houses down. The LIRR has also been closing stations completely where there is no other mass transit. In the last 20 years or so they have closed these stations near me: Republic, South Farmingdale, Deer Park, Bellport and Blue Point.
NYC pays for station maintenance on City stations. I imagine if they were paying for St. Albans, etc., and the maintenance wasn't done, we'd be hearing from Mark Green about it.
I'm really tired of Mark Green's game playing. He's going to be some great Mayor.
Yeah, the problem is that if Giuliani actually beats the Most Intelligent Female In The World Today, Grammy® Winner, One Of The Top Ten Lawyers In The Country, All Around Great Gal and Fifth Beatle, HRC, we get the insufferable Mark Green in City Hall for a year and maybe beyond.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Lots of people who can't stand Hillary will be voting for her anyway to avoid Mark Green. But I've heard that if Giuliani resigns by a certain date, there is a special election in November. If that's the case, it should be a issue in the Senate campaign.
I am a Giuliani hater who hopes that he wins so that we get a mayor who is not so hostile to the the working class and to the terrorized poor, and not nearly so ready to defend egregious police thugs.
Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens. If eastern Queens isn't going to get subways (and it isn't), then the existing LIRR stations ought to be served much more frequently and for lower fares.
I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)
People from eastern Queens virtually never go to Jamaica, or, for that matter, to Flushing, Ridgewood, or to any of Queens's commercial hubs, since this would require driving and (worse) parking in those areas. So, the people there wind up being much more familiar with Glen Oaks, Roosevelt Field, Valley Stream, etc., than they are with the commercial centers which are in their own City and borough.
We need steps aimed at combating this phenomenon and reversing this trend, so Green gets a big "way to go" for me on this one!
Ferdinand Cesarano
(Queens residents shop in Nassau)
Eastern Queens residents aren't going to go to the supermarket on the LIRR. We tried to get more supermarkets and other stores in Queens, but the Queens politicians fought us every step of the way.
I wasn't really talking about supermarkets. I was referring more to department stores, as well as to smaller shops that sell clothing, furniture, or electronics.
And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.
Ferdinand Cesarano
[Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens.]
I agree - Green IS grandstanding and the LIRR should lower its fares and increase service for rides within Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is fare control - how do you check which passengers have tickets just for interboro travel? How many times will the conductors have to check everyone's tickets? Or should the LIRR run special local rapid transit trains, as they did in the distant past from LIC and Flatbush Ave. through Queens to (coincidentally) Queens Village? These services were discontinued after the IND Fulton and Queens Blvd. lines took away most of their passengers.
[And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.]
Well, if it weren't for the NIMBYs in Glendale and Middle Village, etc. you could have had subway service today on the LIC branch. They shot that idea down years ago. You could get off at Fresh Pond and it would be just a short walk to the Metropolitan Ave. Mall. Also, they've been talking for over 20 years about having subway service take over the LIRR's Altantic branch through Locust Manor and Laurelton.
Don't just blame Giuliani.
>>>And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what
we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park<<<
That's plain to subtalkers. But talk about building subways and LIRR branches in eastern Queens will get you shouted down at community board meetings.
People just wanna drive.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, but we're not really talking about building anything new, just about providing better service to the existing stations. That, and reopening recently-closed stations which are still standing.
These are things which would not require constructing any new subway or rail lines (as welcome as that would be from my own point of view).
Ferdinand Cesarano
Tell that to the residents along the Rockaway line. They don't care if it's still there. They don't want more trains. New track. Old track. Makes no difference.
[I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau
County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable
LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)]
Saying that Eastern Queens' car-based culture is something bad is jumping to a rather unwarranted conclusion. Population densities in many parts of Eastern Queens are not too different from what you'll see in parts of Nassau and in other close-in suburbs. These densities may not be enough to support extensive transit services, at least not without incurring horrendous farebox recovery ratios. But these densities might be more suitable for motor vehicle usage, as you'll see in Nassau. As much as I like the subway, and support quality transit service in general, I do not promote it as a "one size fits all" solution that's workable everywhere.
As far as the shopping in Nassau County is concerned, given NYC's bias against large stores, you can hardly expect anything else. Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices. You can hardly blame them for that. At least they have options, something that car-less city residents do not.
"Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.
But, trying to drive and park around there is maddening.
So, unless the unlikely Archer Avenue line extention ever takes place, New York City is doomed to experience a certain amount of economic drain, and eastern Queens residents will continue to pay more than they need to for all kinds of items.
Ferdinand Cesarano
["Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of
merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking
availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.]
How so? Nassau has a wide variety of discount shopping emporia - a Wal-Wart, a couple Targets, several K-Marts, a couple soon-to-open Kohl's, four full-scale malls, supermarkets galore, and so on. That sheer volume produces fierce competition that almost invariably lowers prices. Queens has far less - no Wal-Marts, one Target (IIRC quite remote from transit), one or two K-Marts - you get the picture. And NYC's supermarkets are the laughingstock of the nation for their atrocious quality and sky-high prices.
Most Nassua and Suffolk supermarkets also give double coupons , not so in Queens.
You're right -- Queens does not have many of those major chain stores. What we do have, however, is an abundance of smaller stores with names that mean nothing to anyone outside the store's neighborhood.
For example, in Jamaica, there are wonderful discount clothing/linen places called Alexus, C.H. Martin, ABC, and several others with names that I cannot even remember. Also, in Woodhaven near the Brooklyn border, there is this great store called Liberty, and another one called Dee Dee's. These are stores which I contend will beat your Long Island giganto-store on prices virtually every time.
Again, I am not talking here about groceries, but primarily about clothes.
Additionally, if you want to buy electronics, nothing beats the ability to check out literally a dozen different stores along Jamaica Avenue near Merrick Blvd before buying. Doing this, you are very likely to find a good listed price on something you like, and, even if you can't, you'll probably be able to haggle.
So, forget Wal-Mart and Target. I'll put the no-name shops of Jamaica against them any time.
Ferdinand Cesarano
(What we do have is an abundance of small stores)
Wrong again. Relative to its population and income, Queens has fewer small stores than Nassau, or the national average. Queens people just spend their money in Nassau, period.
Fernando, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT: Glen Oaks and its large shopping center with new K-Mart ARE in Queens. Unfortunately, it's only served by the Q46 and is nowhere near any subway or LIRR station.
A Price Club, Target, Circuit City, R-US's, multiplex and many other businesses have opened on the Whitestone-College Point border- er, boundary- which has caused horrible traffic congestion, so it is attracting people to shop within city limits. The TA did make one token gesture, creating a 'new' route Q20A that passes a lot of the new development.
It probably doesn't help that there's a separate parking lot for each large store a la the Westbury mess, which forces people to drive from one lot to another for fear of being towed if they try to walk! (Of course, people may also reluctant to take a large item home on public transportation.)
The Q20A has attracted a lot of ridership, but it seems to be mostly the people who work at these enterprises- there's tremendous crowding every eight hours when shifts change.
(College Point development has attracted shoppers)
From all over Queens. The problem is that every retail development has to go through a huge review process than takes $millions and years. The only thing that can get through the process is a mega-development, so you get concentrated development instead of spread out development. If you like shopping at warehouse clubs, for example, there are only two in all of Queens, one at College Point.
Even so, anywhere else they would have built a flyover off the expressway into the College Point industrial park. In NYC, you either stop the stores because of an alleged traffic problem, or allow the store without improvements. You never spend 50 cents to accomodate the development.
Honestly, it wouldn't necessarilly slow down Nassau service to provide more in city service. They have people to plan that sort of thing and figure it out. I don't know about this, because I have no track maps for the LIRR(where do you get those anyway?), but how many places are availible to turn around trains?
It would absolutely slow down service from Nassau and Suffolk to make additional stops in Queens. Each stop adds a little bit more than 90 seconds to the trip. So adding stops at Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale (for example) adds about 4-5 minutes to any trip -- probably an increase in travel time of about 10% for most LIRR commuters.
The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
There is only one Queens station which does not have regular service -- St. Albans. As has been discussed here many times, the passenger volume at St. Albans warrants closing the station, not increasing service (took the 8:34 PM to Babylon last night -- a 10 car train probably carrying about 750-1000 people; 4 passengers got off at St. Albans, none got on). (And there are no holes in the active platform at St. Albans -- the holes are in an abandoned portion of the platform which has been long sealed off from passenger access).
All of the other stations get service that is in line with what the other stations along their branch get.
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.
Chuck
(Where is the demand for LIRR service in Queens)
The Port Washington Line is pretty heavily used. It could use more trains, and longer platforms. If the Whitestone Branch, or the line that went through the Kissena Corridor were still there, I'd expect them to get riders.
Lots of Howard Beach riders were willing to pay extra for the train to the plane when it was running, just for fewer stops and a feeling of exclusivity. If the Rockaway line were re-opened with several stations, I'd expect lots of ridership. You'd even get some park-n-ride at Aquadect if it were available.
Southeast Queens is dominated by people who work for the government, and work outside Manhattan, but that could change. There are not enough stations, or enough service, to pull people in.
I hear that the Auburndale platform will be lengthened. Murray Hill should be lengthened, but it's in an open cut and has nowhere to go. Flushing Main Street desperately needs a crossover a la Little Neck and Port Washington.
It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.]
Why was the Whitestone Branch closed? IIRC, it got the ax in 1932. That was well before car ownership and suburbanization began to drain away transit ridership, and moreover it was a time when transit was still in the expansion mode - consider that the first phase of the IND opened at just about the same time. Could the reason be that the Depression was reducing ridership?
The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.
>>>The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not
send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.<<<
The Whitestone diverged from the present Port Wash. branch at a point just east of the Big Shea. In fact if you are riding the PW branch you can still see an extant portion of the old Whitestone trackage trailing off into a marshy area.
The Whitestone continued north into Flushing. Its first stop was Flushing Bridge Street (that's why we have a Flushing Main Street station, when a mere Flushing ought to do), then cut northwest into College Point, and then turned NE and then E, terminating where the Waldbaums at 10th Avenue and 154th is now.
An unusual quirk of the Whitestone was that the third rail was on the passenger side of the platform! Don't slip while getting on, whatever you did.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Part of the trench that the Cross Island Parkway was built into between the Whitestone Bridge/Expressway and Utopia Parkway (1940) was originally the right-of-way of this branch. The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955 or thereabouts). No other evidence of this line can be found any longer, although some of the street patterns in parts of Whitestone developed before WWII suggest where it might have gone through.
Having grown up in Whitestone, I regret the demise of this line. It would have spared me the agony of waiting an hour on weekends for the Q16 to and from Flushing.
It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?
[It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?]
If we can go outside the city limits, there's a roadway called (IIRC) Heathcote Bypass in Scarsdale that was built on the former NYW&B right of way. Its grade and alignment is quite different from any of the surrounding streets.
I'm certain there are plenty.
Part of the NYC RR Putnam Division was used as a relocation for the Taconic State Pkwy. Part of the old CNJ RR in Bayonne is now NJ Route 169 (I believe). The old PRR in Jersey City is now Christopher Columbus Boulevard. A driveway into Garden State Plaza was the Public Service Hudson River trolley line. The list is endless. Of course the ultimate is the Pennsylvania Turnpike, which was built on the grade of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR. Also parts of NY State Route 17 were built on the O&W RR roadbed.
Here in Boston the Southeast Expressway and Burgin Parkway were built on ex-New Haven rights of way. This actually obliterated the Granite Railway, America's first successful railroad, built in 1826. Few traces remain. But they are there, if you know where to look.
03/03/2000
Conrad,
I was told a few years ago that there was some old concrete bridge abutments from the old O & W between the Route 17 divided roadways. Did you hear anything on this?
Bill Newkirk
I forget where, but somewhere near Rockland Co., there is an O & W station converted to a restaurant, with a tunnel in back.
Bob...The old Mechanicstown station outside of Middletown, NY(the O & W's headquarters) is now the "Rusty Nail" restaurant. I believe it was moved to this location from the original ROW just down the road...I believe it's Denning Rd., just around the corner from the old Orange Plaza.
Carl M.
West Side Highway.
03/04/2000
Howard Fein,
There is at least one remnant of the LIRR Whitestone Branch I can account for. Several months ago while dining with Don Harold, Don says "see that parking lot (adjacent to White house Inn restaurant), that's the old Whitestone Branch".
Back in the early 1980's (yikes! 20 years ago), with the help of an old xeroxed map, I saw some unbuilt, tree covered sections of ROW between some houses. Of course they may been developed in 20 years. But check out the White House Inn lot. Also check out the W.H. Inn's minestrone soup! It's to die for!!
Bill Newkirk
[The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955
or thereabouts).]
Howard, Is there anything left that marks the route ... I take the Cross-Island in every day & haven't seen anything obvious yet. It would seem that other then the cut everything was re-done when the Cross-Island was put in.
Mr t__:^)
When driving north on the Van Wyck shortly after crossing under Roosevelt Ave, one can see in the Flushing Creek some wooden bridge pilings. Are these left over from the Whitestone Branch bridge?
Also there is a stone and sand dealer on the east bank of the creek, near the Whitestone Expwy overpass, that has a track in the yard at the water's edge. Until recently a railway crane was used to unload barges there. Is that track a remnant of the Whitestone Branch? The crane looked old enough to have been delivered on its own wheels by the LIRR in the '30s (though probably with the boom disassembled).
Also was the branch removed all at once, or was it abandoned and then gradually removed? Did the trestle survive beyond the abandonment?
Lack of foresight on the part of government strikes again. Wouldn't it be nice to have a rail siding at that new NY Times printing plant (and the post office) in College Point? Not to mention the "big box" retail going in near the old Flushing Airport........
[The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there
is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.]
There is no such demand. Mark Green, as usual, is grandstanding.
Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none
I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.
[I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.]
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
A typical zone 11 station like Patchogue is 56 miles form Penn Sta. A typical zone 3 station like Douglaston is 14 miles from Penn Sta. A monthly ticket for Douglaston is $117. If you were being charged on a mileage basis, as you would have been prior to the NYS takeover, you should be charged $468. Your subsidy comes to $254 compared to a NYC resident.
The ICC used to set a maximum per mile charge for railroads railroads to prevent such obvious abuses.
In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.
One concession that would seem to be fair to Queens riders would be to make the stations in Western Queens Zone 2 stations rather than Zone 1 for the purpose of intra-Queens travel. I suspect that this would cause some fare collection logistical nightmares for the LIRR, though.
Chuck
[In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad
is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn
Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a
monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.]
Thanks for the interesting analysis. Hopefully, it'll silence some of the Queens-centrics who decry the "terrific deals" Suffolk commuters supposedly get.
What has been described is the mechanism for discriminating against NYC residents. The "formula" is the MTA's own design. Assuming an average of 25 round trips per month this amounts to $1 per station per ride. Such station charges were allowed by the ICC, when a railroad was charged for using another railroad's station. The PRR received 5 cents for every LIRR passenger using Penn Sta which was passed along in the ticket price. However, tickets to the LIRR's own terminal stations did not include this charge.
There are two problems with this cost accounting. First, it does not relate to actual costs incurred by the LIRR. Any costs by the LIRR to Amtrak for Penn Sta use are not reflected in ticket price. The cost is the same for a ticket from any location beyond zone 1 to Woodside, Brooklyn or Penn Sta. Second, there might be some that station maintenance should be reflected in ticket price. However, the localities are assessed such costs by the MTA. Not surprisingly, the MTA feels that more than 40% of such costs should be assessed to NYC. This appears to be a classic case of double dipping.
The amount of the "capacity" charge is arbitrary. The mileage charge is fixed regardless of locality. Obviously, the fare can be made more or less discriminatory against Queens residents by raising one charge and lowering the other. As I said in an earlier post, the prospect for abuse was so great that the ICC set a maximum per mileage charge for all train trips.
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger. The capacity charge is higher for Zone 1 because of the Amtrak charges into Penn Station (I agree 110% that the LIRR should bring back Zone 1A/1B pricing to reflect the higher costs to Penn rather than Flatbush).
In some respects, LIRR pricing is similar to airline pricing. They have high costs just to run a single train. How far a person travels on that train once it's moving is pretty much inconsequential. Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seats. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens. There just aren't as many empty seats to fill once the trains are in Queens, and there isn't enough demand to have Queens only service (with the exception of the rush hour Great Neck to Penn runs and a single Valley Stream to Penn run).
Chuck
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger.
There are very few costs associated with a railroad that are independent of trip length. The one notable exception is charges for use of a terminal such as Penn Station. Practically every other cost is proportional to distance. ROW and rolling stock maintenance are obvious examples. Similarly the amount of rolling stock and its associated capital costs for a given level of service is proportional to the distance travelled.
The analogy to airline pricing does not fly. A turbojet consumes 1/3 its fuel on takeoff. This yields a completely different set of economic imperatives than a train, where fuel consumption is more closely proportional to distance travelled.
Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seat. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens.
Filling up empty seats does not appear to be the goal. If given equal opportunity Queens residents would fill up those seats by virtue of the higher population densities.
I'm not convinced that costs are as closely correlated with trip length as you suggest. Perhaps someone who's more technically oriented could comment with more authority, but I'd guess that the number of stops, starts and door openings and closings has much more influence on maintenance costs than miles traveled (perhaps someone could compare the MDBF performance of the cars which are used on the Far Rockaway A train with similar cars on another line for some insight here).
Labor costs don't necessarily vary with distance either. Components of each crew can be short turned along the line to cover areas of highest passenger density. NJT makes extensive use of this along the NEC, and LIRR does it at Jamaica but I'm not sure if they continue the practice further east.
Re: empty seats. I was trying to say two things. First, that there aren't many empty seats which need filling once the trains get to Queens. Second, there are usually plenty of empty seats until a train gets to the last or next-to-last station before Jamaica heading westbound. Since those seats are within Nassau and Suffolk (usually) it makes sense to sell them at a discounted rate.
I agree with having a fixed cost as far as it goes. For example, I don't believe Brooklyn residents should pay more to commute to Manhattan than Manhattan residents -- the trains run through in any event.
However, while the number of people affected is low in any event, there really is no excuse for charging more to carry Queens residents within Queens than Nassau residents within Nassau. Seat capacity? Queens residents would be the ones stading in either direction. Subway option? Not for a ride from Eastern Queens to Western Queens -- many Nassau residents have a bus to subway option also.
The only excuse is the operational fare collection issue. Which is just one more reason that the LIRR should have fare control at the stations, not on the train, on a "good faith" (ie. yes you could beat the system by walking around and not swiping but if we catch you during a periodic sweep the fine will be so high it will leave you gasping) basis.
I'm with you in terms of a better intra-Queens fare. But it's an operational nightmare. It's annoying enough to have to show your ticket twice on the LIRR, but three times?
Plus, I suspect that there would still be few takers. Unless you're going between two points that are very close to an LIRR station and at a time when a train is coming, people will still choose the bus/subway option. It takes you to more locations and it's cheaper.
I know it's been beaten around before, but I just don't see the platform fare collection model being viable for the LIRR. Maybe I'm not enough of a visionary, but I don't see it as being viable.
Chuck
How about selling little tags that you can clip to your collar and which will be read automatically by scanners as you get on and off the train. The owner of each tag will have an account with the MTA and periodically replenish it. Set aside one car on each train -- the least convenient one, of course -- for passengers with old fashioned tickets or-- gasp -- cash.
If it works on the railroads, maybe they will try it on the highways and the bridges and tunnels.
That's a GREAT idea, except, how do you identify people who DON'T pay. That's the key. If you could identify those who don't pay, you could have a good faith system for those who do. In other words, your system would charge those with the tag on as they entered the train. But what if people entered the train without the tag?
Really, there is not much difference between having a tag read automatically by the train door and having a Metrocard swiped on entering the station. You still need a check.
My solution is as follows. You are required to swipe a Metrocard (or have a tag read) before entering or exiting any station other than Grand Central or Penn. When you enter or exit, you are charged a Zone 1 fare, as if you were going to or coming from Manhattan. If you then exit elsewhere, any required money is returned to your card or tag based on where you entered. This would avoid the bottleneck of fare control at the terminal.
Ripoff control could come via a variety of means. In locations where the design of the station allows it, you could have subway style fare control (ie. Babylon Line). In other stations, you could have cameras to record people hopping on or off the plaform without paying, occasional sweeps on the train to check that all Metrocards or tags had been swiped, and the posting of plainclothes "fare crimes" cops at stations where fare beating had become common. The fine -- 1/20th of a person's annual income, minimum of $1,000 for the teens. Commuter rail serves middle income areas, where you have people with incomes and fixed addresses and fines are easier to collect -- and a bigger deterrant.
Would some people beat the fare? Sure, but perhaps no more than today, and you'd save the cost of all those conductors. Heck, I've beat the fare by accident on a number of occasions: I intended to purchase a ticket on the train (station office closed) but the conductor never got to the car I was in. The additional sales from Metrocard Machines in the stations might outweight additional intentional fare beating, if any.
Sort of like the London Rapid Transit. For the system to work, the MTA would have to do major renovations of the stations. Take most open air stations on Metro North and LIRR. It would be easy for anybody to fare beat, because instead of going out the exit, they could walk to the end of the platforms and climb out there, thus never paying. Conductors as well as ticketmasters would and could never be eliminated because of their unions. Your plan sounds good on paper, but I think if this plan was to ever go into affect, it would never work. You couldn't get rid of the workers and it would tempt more people to fare beat.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
There is an obvious and simple solution requiring no construction or schedule changes: Put SE Queens back in Nassau County. Once the map is changed, they will qualify for the same lower fares as all other Nassau residents. Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains. Frankly, I'm surprised that the LIRR doesn't have a residency requirement like some of the "public" parks on Long Island.
"Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains."
What exactly is it that makes you say that the LIRR is trying to keep the people of SE Queens off their trains?
(What makes you say the LIRR is trying to keep people off the trains)
Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. Contrast that with city policy during an LIRR strike. The city stops cleaning the streets so LIRR riders can park in its neighborhoods, and does all it can to accomodate LIRR riders on the subway.
>>>Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. <<<
I'm still steaming over that, no matter how many times it's explained to me how impossible it would be to accommodate Queens passengers during a subway strike.
Hey, I'm a people too. Make some plans for the next potential strike!
www.forgotten-ny.com
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.
There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations).
It would appear that Green and Shulman got 13 out of 14 correct. That would give them 92% mark on this item - much better than the LIRR's on-time performance.
Long Island City is still open.
You are correct. However with only 7 trains per day and no weekend service, an reasonable observer might find it difficult to find a pulse.
[ Long Island City LIRR is moribund -- 7 trains a day ]
Prior to the opening of the 34th Street Ferry, it was only 4 trains a day. That's a 75% increase in service!
You can also catch a free ride on a orange stripped bus to that ferry from Queens Plaza.
Mr t__:^)
[[She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.]
[There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.]
Long Island City has not been closed. Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago. As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
The MTA seems at some point to have had this idea that the commuter railroads should not be providing competing services in the city, and the subway should not try to attract suburbanites. I remember a decade ago having an MTAer wonder out loud why the Hudson Line had stations in the Bronx. Why compete with ourself?
I think that since the commuter railroads are getting such a large share of the toll surplus anyway, they should be adding more service in the city. And the MTA should open up more park-n-ride lots, so suburban riders can drive most fo the way in and take the subway. I know several people who drive in and take the subway. Competition is good.
...Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago....
It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.)
As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
I think a fair departure point would be the NYS purchase in 1965. This takeover would not have been possible had not NYC, Nassau and Suffolk forgiven their claim for overdue real estate taxes from the LIRR. Both Nassau and Suffolk have received continued and improved service, whereas NYC service has deteriorated.
(Since 1965, service in Queens has deteriorated, while Nassau and Suffolk have improved service)
Service has gotten worse in Brooklyn too, on those routes served by the LIRR. As for Nassau and Suffolk, they had it good for a while, but I wouldn't want to change places with them now. Transportation, in general, has been disinvested in for 30 years. Hence the battle to see who, if anyone, will get some investment.
Why did they totally destroy Elmhurst? I was never quite sure why they closed it, I was only 4 at the time...
>>>>It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.) <<<
Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago, only the barest trace remains today...if that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago (Elmhurst), only the barest trace remains today...if that much.]
LIRR management seems pretty diligent about eradicating any traces of closed stations. In the recent case of Holtsville, this was taken to an extreme. All that existed at Holtsville was a small shelter like you'd see at a bus stop, sitting on a concrete pad. The shelter was removed soon after the station closed a couple of years ago. Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's way.
>>Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of
existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's
way. <<<
Jeez, the LIRR eradicated all trace of Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman and Penny Bridge BEFORE those stops closed! I think they were imparting a subtle message there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Strange that they left Richmond Hill.
If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton
Make that 31. I forgot there were two Woodhaven stations, one on the Flatbush Ave. line and one on the Rockaway Beach line.
Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?
[Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?]
I haven't heard of one, although it might not be an entirely bad idea.
Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and have everybody else skip it.
Wayne
>>>>Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need
a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some
rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and
have everybody else skip it. <<<<
It would bring the number of active underground LIRR stations to two, unless you count Flatbush Avenue, which has been exposed somewhat by excavations around it.
No. Three. Penn Sta. and Flatbush Ave. are both underground.
No, I think Kevin was being a little sarcastic as you now can see some daylight and even a piece of the new mall at Flatbush Av. But then I guess under that reasoning the IRT station would not be underground either since its on the same level!!
Here's a question about the Panama Canal Zone.
What is that empty area alongside the Manhattan bound local platform, on the Bergen Street End? I know that curve on the Nevins end is for the Mineola.
Wayne, when it was open in the sixties there were only 2 or 3 trains that stopped there each way.
Yes, I know - perhaps that in and of itself is why nobody used it.
Wayne
Which came first, the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the . . . ?
THE PIG!
Since the closing of the station came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?
[Since the closing of the station (Woodhaven) came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?]
I don't see how - there was no reason why the M-1's couldn't serve the station.
A more likely explanation is that the closing of the LIRR Rockaway line left Woodhaven largely superfluous. What about the fact that more than a decade passed between the end of the Rockaway line and Woodhaven's closing? I'd attribute that mainly to the fact that the LIRR was and is a slow-moving bureaucracy. And don't forget that the MTA came into being during those years, which probably slowed the decision-making process even more. Finally, closing Woodside was unlikely to have been on the top of any must-do list, as the costs of keeping it open probably weren't much.
Bob...You forgot the Westbridge station, located at Jamaica Ave. on the main line from Penn. Sta., right before the Jamaica station.
Carl M.
Correct! (that's 32)
I was in the NYPL main branch map room the other day (a must for any NYC history or transit buff) and asked to see a 1922(!) Hagstrom of Brooklyn. I noticed that the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch was still an active passenger line in those days, though by then only a few stops like Rugby and Kouwenhoven were open by then.
The Queens Hagstrom from 1923 had similar fascinating revelations. I was all set to get it copied for use on
www.forgotten-ny.com
when the clerk informed me that because of the great age of the maps they couldn't risk putting them on the drum roll copier. Just as well, the Langenscheidt (Hagstrom's parent company) hired liars woulda been all over me no doubt, if Forgotten ever became a real mioneymaking operation.
Thief! Thief!
[If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton]
Better not let Claire Shulman know ...
By the way, where was Clarenceville?
Clarenceville was an old name for Richmond Hill. I guess they kept the name on the Atlantic Ave. line to distinguish it from Richmond Hill on the Long Island City line.
Ok, so that would mean the Clarenceville, Morris Park and Dunton stations were all there when the LIRR line was at grade (no evidence of any in the current tunnel, only Woodhaven).
Where was Union Course and Matawok? Since you have Matawok in with the Rockaway Branch stations, was it between Parkside and Brooklyn Manor?
Higbie Avenue - wasn't that Freight Only?
Wayne
Matawok was just east of White Pot Junction on the Main Line.
Union Course was between 81st and 82nd Sts. on the Altantic Ave. Line.
You may be right about Higbie Ave. in later years, but I have a timetable from 1911 that shows passenger service at "Springfield (Higbie Ave.)"
Hey Bob, what about the Raunt?
I didn't include it since it is on the part that is now serviced by by the subway.
>>>Long Island City<<<
LIC is still open for limited service...
Kevin, First thanks you for your excerpts from the article and thoughtful comments. I also noticed that you identified the publication & author of the article but I feel I should offer a word of caution to all of us so we don't get ourselves or our host Dave in trouble.
The Copyright law holds that anything published after 1978 can't be quoted by more then 400 words without the expressed permission of the author/publication. Less then that you MUST credit the source/author.
However tables, charts & figures are NOT included in this 400 word exception.
P.S. You probally have noticed that I frequently lift comments from some article that I've read, but am always mindful of how far I can go before potentially creating a problem. I do this to alert/share with my SubTalk/BusTalk friends and appreciate when they do the same. There have been many subjects of great interest to me that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to learn about/obtain if it wasn't for the free exchange that occurs here.
Mr t__:^)
Could one of you who are MTA employees post a picture of the cab controls of an MTA SL50 locomotive. I am curious about the setup on a modern GE switcher.
John J. Blair
Aside from Archer/Parsons, are there any stations whose part-time entrances are indicated by YELLOW light fixtures instead of RED?
I've seen that from the LIRR and meant to ask, what was yellow supposed to mean as opposed to read? Why did they just use green/red? yellow could be used to indicate Metrocard only (gold).
A red globe indicates an entrance that is closed at night.
Yellow entrances are always open, but there may be no
token booth open and accessible from that entrance at night.
Red globes indicate some restriction such as MetroCard Only or booth only open during rush hour or exit only- as an example 24th and 8th ave has high exit wheels and has a red globe at strweet level. teh etxt reads "exit only"
What do green/white split globes indicate?
The white part of the split globe (whether green or red) is there to provide lighting on the stairway to which the globe is affixed.
David
it's strange--- everytime i see the yellow station heading i think it's yellow stain--- and refers to captain queeg
Hey Paul, is this what you were thinking of:
you dare sing that to my face--- just because you disloyal officers got off due to that lawyer of yours who tricked me, doesn't give you the right to mock me in public--- i suppose the next thing you'll put up is film of the Caine steaming over the its tow line--- it's just more trick photography created by a bunch of disloyal officers
I think he's been eating too much yellow snow... :o>
wayne
I thought there are no yellow globes anymore. They were only installed for a few months before someone decided it was too "complicated" to use three colors. Most of the yellow globes already installed were gradually replaced with red ones over the next few years.
Parsons/Archer still has a yellow globe? Perhaps, since it was installed as an integral part of the construction of a new station, they didn't want to change it.
Several people have ADDRESSED my original question, but nobody has even tried to ANSWER it, so I'll post it again:
Aside from Parsons/Archer, are there any stations whose part-time entrances are indicated by YELLOW light fixtures instead of RED?
[Aside from Parsons/Archer, are there any stations whose part-time entrances are indicated by YELLOW light fixtures instead of RED?]
I don't claim to have seen all stations, but of those I have, I've never seen yellow fixtures.
Don't you ride the LIRR? Look out the windows on the right side (when facing forward) of a westbound train before Jamaica, you can see a yellow fixture at Jamaica Center station. That's how I saw it.
(Mark Green called for an end to the bus monopolies)
Does that mean he is in favor of more private vans? School vouchers? Allowing new supermarkets in poor neighborhoods without five years of lawsuits and red tape. It would be nice if Mark Green were really against monopolies. Mr. T take the hint, he just wants a contribution to his campaign.
(Off peak discounts for Queens to Nassau Commuters)
I'm sure Nassau would be in favor. I was told by a member of the Long Island Planning Commission that they love city to suburb commuters because they allow low-wage jobs to be filled without having the moderate income workers actually live in Nassau, where they would be "inappropriate." And they prefer mass transit for these workers, so they don't take up space on Nassau's roads.
But the LIRR doesn't want city to suburb commuters because of the two-track problem others have mentioned. Taking people out isn't a way to fill empty seats on trains heading north to start their second run in. It is a special trip that limits express service.
This week's episode of the Sopranos on HBO provides a quick glimpse of the beloved Redbirds.
When Chris goes back to NY to visit a director he has become friends with, he runs across Janeane Garofalo (playing herself) who tells him that his "friend" left for LA. When the camera focuses on Chris's reaction, in the background you can see the subway passing by. The Redbirds appear to be of the World's Fair kind. The elevated structure is actually bilevel. At first glance, it appeared to be similar to the bilivel structure found outside of the Pelham #6's yard on Westchester Avenue and Water St in the Bronx. The street scene does not resemble it at all so it is not that location.
I have heard that the Sopranos interior sequences are actually filmed in the Astoria Kaufman studios in Queens. So I figure this part was then filmed near the Flushing el. Does anyone know where the el becomes bilevel? Has anyone else watched the episode and noticed this also?
Thanks.
The Flusing line is a bilvel elevated between the 11th and 104th street station. When the express goes on it, it skips both stops. The middle track underneath it ends in a bumper block and the express comes back down to the regular el shortly after the 104th St station. That is probably what you saw...
-Harry
Actually, The Soprano's is staged at the Silvercup Studios. The sighting of the Flushing Redbirds is from the vantage point of looking east along 43rd avenue. Between Queensboro Plaza and Court Square, there is a point where the 7, which runs right past Silvercup, is briefly bi-level. I was wondering if anyone caught that little glimpse.
Oh, I see, so that's the studios the show is taped at.
That would make sense then. That is exactly the scene I was talking about. You can even here the Redbirds "singing" as they are passing within the camera's point of view. Of course, it's difficult to hear them with Chris cursing.
Chances are then, when he's talking to Janeane Garofalo outside of what is supposed to be a movie studio - that is actually the Silvercup studio itself!
[The letter was included in a "Stations of Shame" report in which Shulman cited the closing of 14 LIRR stations in Queens, charging that many of the deserted stations became trash dumping grounds and hangouts for youths.]
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's. And as far as the closed stations being dumping grounds and hang-out places is concerned, that's rather hard to reconcile with the fact that almost all of the closed stations have been obliterated. Somehow, I don't think anyone's hanging around in the Rego Park or Springfield Gardens stations :-)
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations). The Queens stations along the Port Washington line have more-than-adequate service, as do Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and of course Jamaica. The SE Queens stations don't have quite as many trains, but they do have enough service to make commuting feasible and compare favorably to many Nassau and Suffolk stations. High fares? Well, I can't deny that the fares aren't cheap, but it's best to look at the LIRR in much of Queens as being the high-priced option. You want reasonably quick service at a rather high price, take the LIRR. If you want lower fares, though with a slower trip, take the subway/bus combo. Most Nassau and all Suffolk riders have no such option - it's the LIRR or nothing.
Realistically speaking the LIRR is just not able to serve large numbers of Queens commuters. The LIRR in Queens was constructed years ago, mostly before the consolidation of NYC in 1898, when Queens was a rural community. Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into some kind of hero.
>>>Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau
and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive
into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into
some kind of hero. <<<
I would agree with you about the LIRR being primarily a rush hour mover of Nassau and Suffolk commuters. However, I would hold the LIRR to at least the pretense of serving Queens customers; that would mean fixing the crumbling, and occasionally dangerous, platforms and staircases at stations like St. Albans and Broadway. Hollis and St. Albans commuters, few though they may be, deserve at least that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Station maintenance is paid for by the localities involved. Every year, Nassau and Suffolk Counties receive bills from the LIRR. When Suffolk refused to pay for maintenance of some stations several decades ago, the LIRR tore the station houses down. The LIRR has also been closing stations completely where there is no other mass transit. In the last 20 years or so they have closed these stations near me: Republic, South Farmingdale, Deer Park, Bellport and Blue Point.
NYC pays for station maintenance on City stations. I imagine if they were paying for St. Albans, etc., and the maintenance wasn't done, we'd be hearing from Mark Green about it.
I'm really tired of Mark Green's game playing. He's going to be some great Mayor.
Yeah, the problem is that if Giuliani actually beats the Most Intelligent Female In The World Today, Grammy® Winner, One Of The Top Ten Lawyers In The Country, All Around Great Gal and Fifth Beatle, HRC, we get the insufferable Mark Green in City Hall for a year and maybe beyond.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Lots of people who can't stand Hillary will be voting for her anyway to avoid Mark Green. But I've heard that if Giuliani resigns by a certain date, there is a special election in November. If that's the case, it should be a issue in the Senate campaign.
I am a Giuliani hater who hopes that he wins so that we get a mayor who is not so hostile to the the working class and to the terrorized poor, and not nearly so ready to defend egregious police thugs.
Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens. If eastern Queens isn't going to get subways (and it isn't), then the existing LIRR stations ought to be served much more frequently and for lower fares.
I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)
People from eastern Queens virtually never go to Jamaica, or, for that matter, to Flushing, Ridgewood, or to any of Queens's commercial hubs, since this would require driving and (worse) parking in those areas. So, the people there wind up being much more familiar with Glen Oaks, Roosevelt Field, Valley Stream, etc., than they are with the commercial centers which are in their own City and borough.
We need steps aimed at combating this phenomenon and reversing this trend, so Green gets a big "way to go" for me on this one!
Ferdinand Cesarano
(Queens residents shop in Nassau)
Eastern Queens residents aren't going to go to the supermarket on the LIRR. We tried to get more supermarkets and other stores in Queens, but the Queens politicians fought us every step of the way.
I wasn't really talking about supermarkets. I was referring more to department stores, as well as to smaller shops that sell clothing, furniture, or electronics.
And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.
Ferdinand Cesarano
[Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens.]
I agree - Green IS grandstanding and the LIRR should lower its fares and increase service for rides within Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is fare control - how do you check which passengers have tickets just for interboro travel? How many times will the conductors have to check everyone's tickets? Or should the LIRR run special local rapid transit trains, as they did in the distant past from LIC and Flatbush Ave. through Queens to (coincidentally) Queens Village? These services were discontinued after the IND Fulton and Queens Blvd. lines took away most of their passengers.
[And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.]
Well, if it weren't for the NIMBYs in Glendale and Middle Village, etc. you could have had subway service today on the LIC branch. They shot that idea down years ago. You could get off at Fresh Pond and it would be just a short walk to the Metropolitan Ave. Mall. Also, they've been talking for over 20 years about having subway service take over the LIRR's Altantic branch through Locust Manor and Laurelton.
Don't just blame Giuliani.
>>>And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what
we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park<<<
That's plain to subtalkers. But talk about building subways and LIRR branches in eastern Queens will get you shouted down at community board meetings.
People just wanna drive.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, but we're not really talking about building anything new, just about providing better service to the existing stations. That, and reopening recently-closed stations which are still standing.
These are things which would not require constructing any new subway or rail lines (as welcome as that would be from my own point of view).
Ferdinand Cesarano
Tell that to the residents along the Rockaway line. They don't care if it's still there. They don't want more trains. New track. Old track. Makes no difference.
[I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau
County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable
LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)]
Saying that Eastern Queens' car-based culture is something bad is jumping to a rather unwarranted conclusion. Population densities in many parts of Eastern Queens are not too different from what you'll see in parts of Nassau and in other close-in suburbs. These densities may not be enough to support extensive transit services, at least not without incurring horrendous farebox recovery ratios. But these densities might be more suitable for motor vehicle usage, as you'll see in Nassau. As much as I like the subway, and support quality transit service in general, I do not promote it as a "one size fits all" solution that's workable everywhere.
As far as the shopping in Nassau County is concerned, given NYC's bias against large stores, you can hardly expect anything else. Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices. You can hardly blame them for that. At least they have options, something that car-less city residents do not.
"Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.
But, trying to drive and park around there is maddening.
So, unless the unlikely Archer Avenue line extention ever takes place, New York City is doomed to experience a certain amount of economic drain, and eastern Queens residents will continue to pay more than they need to for all kinds of items.
Ferdinand Cesarano
["Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of
merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking
availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.]
How so? Nassau has a wide variety of discount shopping emporia - a Wal-Wart, a couple Targets, several K-Marts, a couple soon-to-open Kohl's, four full-scale malls, supermarkets galore, and so on. That sheer volume produces fierce competition that almost invariably lowers prices. Queens has far less - no Wal-Marts, one Target (IIRC quite remote from transit), one or two K-Marts - you get the picture. And NYC's supermarkets are the laughingstock of the nation for their atrocious quality and sky-high prices.
Most Nassua and Suffolk supermarkets also give double coupons , not so in Queens.
You're right -- Queens does not have many of those major chain stores. What we do have, however, is an abundance of smaller stores with names that mean nothing to anyone outside the store's neighborhood.
For example, in Jamaica, there are wonderful discount clothing/linen places called Alexus, C.H. Martin, ABC, and several others with names that I cannot even remember. Also, in Woodhaven near the Brooklyn border, there is this great store called Liberty, and another one called Dee Dee's. These are stores which I contend will beat your Long Island giganto-store on prices virtually every time.
Again, I am not talking here about groceries, but primarily about clothes.
Additionally, if you want to buy electronics, nothing beats the ability to check out literally a dozen different stores along Jamaica Avenue near Merrick Blvd before buying. Doing this, you are very likely to find a good listed price on something you like, and, even if you can't, you'll probably be able to haggle.
So, forget Wal-Mart and Target. I'll put the no-name shops of Jamaica against them any time.
Ferdinand Cesarano
(What we do have is an abundance of small stores)
Wrong again. Relative to its population and income, Queens has fewer small stores than Nassau, or the national average. Queens people just spend their money in Nassau, period.
Fernando, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT: Glen Oaks and its large shopping center with new K-Mart ARE in Queens. Unfortunately, it's only served by the Q46 and is nowhere near any subway or LIRR station.
A Price Club, Target, Circuit City, R-US's, multiplex and many other businesses have opened on the Whitestone-College Point border- er, boundary- which has caused horrible traffic congestion, so it is attracting people to shop within city limits. The TA did make one token gesture, creating a 'new' route Q20A that passes a lot of the new development.
It probably doesn't help that there's a separate parking lot for each large store a la the Westbury mess, which forces people to drive from one lot to another for fear of being towed if they try to walk! (Of course, people may also reluctant to take a large item home on public transportation.)
The Q20A has attracted a lot of ridership, but it seems to be mostly the people who work at these enterprises- there's tremendous crowding every eight hours when shifts change.
(College Point development has attracted shoppers)
From all over Queens. The problem is that every retail development has to go through a huge review process than takes $millions and years. The only thing that can get through the process is a mega-development, so you get concentrated development instead of spread out development. If you like shopping at warehouse clubs, for example, there are only two in all of Queens, one at College Point.
Even so, anywhere else they would have built a flyover off the expressway into the College Point industrial park. In NYC, you either stop the stores because of an alleged traffic problem, or allow the store without improvements. You never spend 50 cents to accomodate the development.
Honestly, it wouldn't necessarilly slow down Nassau service to provide more in city service. They have people to plan that sort of thing and figure it out. I don't know about this, because I have no track maps for the LIRR(where do you get those anyway?), but how many places are availible to turn around trains?
It would absolutely slow down service from Nassau and Suffolk to make additional stops in Queens. Each stop adds a little bit more than 90 seconds to the trip. So adding stops at Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale (for example) adds about 4-5 minutes to any trip -- probably an increase in travel time of about 10% for most LIRR commuters.
The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
There is only one Queens station which does not have regular service -- St. Albans. As has been discussed here many times, the passenger volume at St. Albans warrants closing the station, not increasing service (took the 8:34 PM to Babylon last night -- a 10 car train probably carrying about 750-1000 people; 4 passengers got off at St. Albans, none got on). (And there are no holes in the active platform at St. Albans -- the holes are in an abandoned portion of the platform which has been long sealed off from passenger access).
All of the other stations get service that is in line with what the other stations along their branch get.
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.
Chuck
(Where is the demand for LIRR service in Queens)
The Port Washington Line is pretty heavily used. It could use more trains, and longer platforms. If the Whitestone Branch, or the line that went through the Kissena Corridor were still there, I'd expect them to get riders.
Lots of Howard Beach riders were willing to pay extra for the train to the plane when it was running, just for fewer stops and a feeling of exclusivity. If the Rockaway line were re-opened with several stations, I'd expect lots of ridership. You'd even get some park-n-ride at Aquadect if it were available.
Southeast Queens is dominated by people who work for the government, and work outside Manhattan, but that could change. There are not enough stations, or enough service, to pull people in.
I hear that the Auburndale platform will be lengthened. Murray Hill should be lengthened, but it's in an open cut and has nowhere to go. Flushing Main Street desperately needs a crossover a la Little Neck and Port Washington.
It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.]
Why was the Whitestone Branch closed? IIRC, it got the ax in 1932. That was well before car ownership and suburbanization began to drain away transit ridership, and moreover it was a time when transit was still in the expansion mode - consider that the first phase of the IND opened at just about the same time. Could the reason be that the Depression was reducing ridership?
The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.
>>>The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not
send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.<<<
The Whitestone diverged from the present Port Wash. branch at a point just east of the Big Shea. In fact if you are riding the PW branch you can still see an extant portion of the old Whitestone trackage trailing off into a marshy area.
The Whitestone continued north into Flushing. Its first stop was Flushing Bridge Street (that's why we have a Flushing Main Street station, when a mere Flushing ought to do), then cut northwest into College Point, and then turned NE and then E, terminating where the Waldbaums at 10th Avenue and 154th is now.
An unusual quirk of the Whitestone was that the third rail was on the passenger side of the platform! Don't slip while getting on, whatever you did.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Part of the trench that the Cross Island Parkway was built into between the Whitestone Bridge/Expressway and Utopia Parkway (1940) was originally the right-of-way of this branch. The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955 or thereabouts). No other evidence of this line can be found any longer, although some of the street patterns in parts of Whitestone developed before WWII suggest where it might have gone through.
Having grown up in Whitestone, I regret the demise of this line. It would have spared me the agony of waiting an hour on weekends for the Q16 to and from Flushing.
It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?
[It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?]
If we can go outside the city limits, there's a roadway called (IIRC) Heathcote Bypass in Scarsdale that was built on the former NYW&B right of way. Its grade and alignment is quite different from any of the surrounding streets.
I'm certain there are plenty.
Part of the NYC RR Putnam Division was used as a relocation for the Taconic State Pkwy. Part of the old CNJ RR in Bayonne is now NJ Route 169 (I believe). The old PRR in Jersey City is now Christopher Columbus Boulevard. A driveway into Garden State Plaza was the Public Service Hudson River trolley line. The list is endless. Of course the ultimate is the Pennsylvania Turnpike, which was built on the grade of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR. Also parts of NY State Route 17 were built on the O&W RR roadbed.
Here in Boston the Southeast Expressway and Burgin Parkway were built on ex-New Haven rights of way. This actually obliterated the Granite Railway, America's first successful railroad, built in 1826. Few traces remain. But they are there, if you know where to look.
03/03/2000
Conrad,
I was told a few years ago that there was some old concrete bridge abutments from the old O & W between the Route 17 divided roadways. Did you hear anything on this?
Bill Newkirk
I forget where, but somewhere near Rockland Co., there is an O & W station converted to a restaurant, with a tunnel in back.
Bob...The old Mechanicstown station outside of Middletown, NY(the O & W's headquarters) is now the "Rusty Nail" restaurant. I believe it was moved to this location from the original ROW just down the road...I believe it's Denning Rd., just around the corner from the old Orange Plaza.
Carl M.
West Side Highway.
03/04/2000
Howard Fein,
There is at least one remnant of the LIRR Whitestone Branch I can account for. Several months ago while dining with Don Harold, Don says "see that parking lot (adjacent to White house Inn restaurant), that's the old Whitestone Branch".
Back in the early 1980's (yikes! 20 years ago), with the help of an old xeroxed map, I saw some unbuilt, tree covered sections of ROW between some houses. Of course they may been developed in 20 years. But check out the White House Inn lot. Also check out the W.H. Inn's minestrone soup! It's to die for!!
Bill Newkirk
[The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955
or thereabouts).]
Howard, Is there anything left that marks the route ... I take the Cross-Island in every day & haven't seen anything obvious yet. It would seem that other then the cut everything was re-done when the Cross-Island was put in.
Mr t__:^)
When driving north on the Van Wyck shortly after crossing under Roosevelt Ave, one can see in the Flushing Creek some wooden bridge pilings. Are these left over from the Whitestone Branch bridge?
Also there is a stone and sand dealer on the east bank of the creek, near the Whitestone Expwy overpass, that has a track in the yard at the water's edge. Until recently a railway crane was used to unload barges there. Is that track a remnant of the Whitestone Branch? The crane looked old enough to have been delivered on its own wheels by the LIRR in the '30s (though probably with the boom disassembled).
Also was the branch removed all at once, or was it abandoned and then gradually removed? Did the trestle survive beyond the abandonment?
Lack of foresight on the part of government strikes again. Wouldn't it be nice to have a rail siding at that new NY Times printing plant (and the post office) in College Point? Not to mention the "big box" retail going in near the old Flushing Airport........
[The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there
is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.]
There is no such demand. Mark Green, as usual, is grandstanding.
Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none
I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.
[I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.]
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
A typical zone 11 station like Patchogue is 56 miles form Penn Sta. A typical zone 3 station like Douglaston is 14 miles from Penn Sta. A monthly ticket for Douglaston is $117. If you were being charged on a mileage basis, as you would have been prior to the NYS takeover, you should be charged $468. Your subsidy comes to $254 compared to a NYC resident.
The ICC used to set a maximum per mile charge for railroads railroads to prevent such obvious abuses.
In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.
One concession that would seem to be fair to Queens riders would be to make the stations in Western Queens Zone 2 stations rather than Zone 1 for the purpose of intra-Queens travel. I suspect that this would cause some fare collection logistical nightmares for the LIRR, though.
Chuck
[In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad
is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn
Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a
monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.]
Thanks for the interesting analysis. Hopefully, it'll silence some of the Queens-centrics who decry the "terrific deals" Suffolk commuters supposedly get.
What has been described is the mechanism for discriminating against NYC residents. The "formula" is the MTA's own design. Assuming an average of 25 round trips per month this amounts to $1 per station per ride. Such station charges were allowed by the ICC, when a railroad was charged for using another railroad's station. The PRR received 5 cents for every LIRR passenger using Penn Sta which was passed along in the ticket price. However, tickets to the LIRR's own terminal stations did not include this charge.
There are two problems with this cost accounting. First, it does not relate to actual costs incurred by the LIRR. Any costs by the LIRR to Amtrak for Penn Sta use are not reflected in ticket price. The cost is the same for a ticket from any location beyond zone 1 to Woodside, Brooklyn or Penn Sta. Second, there might be some that station maintenance should be reflected in ticket price. However, the localities are assessed such costs by the MTA. Not surprisingly, the MTA feels that more than 40% of such costs should be assessed to NYC. This appears to be a classic case of double dipping.
The amount of the "capacity" charge is arbitrary. The mileage charge is fixed regardless of locality. Obviously, the fare can be made more or less discriminatory against Queens residents by raising one charge and lowering the other. As I said in an earlier post, the prospect for abuse was so great that the ICC set a maximum per mileage charge for all train trips.
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger. The capacity charge is higher for Zone 1 because of the Amtrak charges into Penn Station (I agree 110% that the LIRR should bring back Zone 1A/1B pricing to reflect the higher costs to Penn rather than Flatbush).
In some respects, LIRR pricing is similar to airline pricing. They have high costs just to run a single train. How far a person travels on that train once it's moving is pretty much inconsequential. Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seats. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens. There just aren't as many empty seats to fill once the trains are in Queens, and there isn't enough demand to have Queens only service (with the exception of the rush hour Great Neck to Penn runs and a single Valley Stream to Penn run).
Chuck
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger.
There are very few costs associated with a railroad that are independent of trip length. The one notable exception is charges for use of a terminal such as Penn Station. Practically every other cost is proportional to distance. ROW and rolling stock maintenance are obvious examples. Similarly the amount of rolling stock and its associated capital costs for a given level of service is proportional to the distance travelled.
The analogy to airline pricing does not fly. A turbojet consumes 1/3 its fuel on takeoff. This yields a completely different set of economic imperatives than a train, where fuel consumption is more closely proportional to distance travelled.
Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seat. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens.
Filling up empty seats does not appear to be the goal. If given equal opportunity Queens residents would fill up those seats by virtue of the higher population densities.
I'm not convinced that costs are as closely correlated with trip length as you suggest. Perhaps someone who's more technically oriented could comment with more authority, but I'd guess that the number of stops, starts and door openings and closings has much more influence on maintenance costs than miles traveled (perhaps someone could compare the MDBF performance of the cars which are used on the Far Rockaway A train with similar cars on another line for some insight here).
Labor costs don't necessarily vary with distance either. Components of each crew can be short turned along the line to cover areas of highest passenger density. NJT makes extensive use of this along the NEC, and LIRR does it at Jamaica but I'm not sure if they continue the practice further east.
Re: empty seats. I was trying to say two things. First, that there aren't many empty seats which need filling once the trains get to Queens. Second, there are usually plenty of empty seats until a train gets to the last or next-to-last station before Jamaica heading westbound. Since those seats are within Nassau and Suffolk (usually) it makes sense to sell them at a discounted rate.
I agree with having a fixed cost as far as it goes. For example, I don't believe Brooklyn residents should pay more to commute to Manhattan than Manhattan residents -- the trains run through in any event.
However, while the number of people affected is low in any event, there really is no excuse for charging more to carry Queens residents within Queens than Nassau residents within Nassau. Seat capacity? Queens residents would be the ones stading in either direction. Subway option? Not for a ride from Eastern Queens to Western Queens -- many Nassau residents have a bus to subway option also.
The only excuse is the operational fare collection issue. Which is just one more reason that the LIRR should have fare control at the stations, not on the train, on a "good faith" (ie. yes you could beat the system by walking around and not swiping but if we catch you during a periodic sweep the fine will be so high it will leave you gasping) basis.
I'm with you in terms of a better intra-Queens fare. But it's an operational nightmare. It's annoying enough to have to show your ticket twice on the LIRR, but three times?
Plus, I suspect that there would still be few takers. Unless you're going between two points that are very close to an LIRR station and at a time when a train is coming, people will still choose the bus/subway option. It takes you to more locations and it's cheaper.
I know it's been beaten around before, but I just don't see the platform fare collection model being viable for the LIRR. Maybe I'm not enough of a visionary, but I don't see it as being viable.
Chuck
How about selling little tags that you can clip to your collar and which will be read automatically by scanners as you get on and off the train. The owner of each tag will have an account with the MTA and periodically replenish it. Set aside one car on each train -- the least convenient one, of course -- for passengers with old fashioned tickets or-- gasp -- cash.
If it works on the railroads, maybe they will try it on the highways and the bridges and tunnels.
That's a GREAT idea, except, how do you identify people who DON'T pay. That's the key. If you could identify those who don't pay, you could have a good faith system for those who do. In other words, your system would charge those with the tag on as they entered the train. But what if people entered the train without the tag?
Really, there is not much difference between having a tag read automatically by the train door and having a Metrocard swiped on entering the station. You still need a check.
My solution is as follows. You are required to swipe a Metrocard (or have a tag read) before entering or exiting any station other than Grand Central or Penn. When you enter or exit, you are charged a Zone 1 fare, as if you were going to or coming from Manhattan. If you then exit elsewhere, any required money is returned to your card or tag based on where you entered. This would avoid the bottleneck of fare control at the terminal.
Ripoff control could come via a variety of means. In locations where the design of the station allows it, you could have subway style fare control (ie. Babylon Line). In other stations, you could have cameras to record people hopping on or off the plaform without paying, occasional sweeps on the train to check that all Metrocards or tags had been swiped, and the posting of plainclothes "fare crimes" cops at stations where fare beating had become common. The fine -- 1/20th of a person's annual income, minimum of $1,000 for the teens. Commuter rail serves middle income areas, where you have people with incomes and fixed addresses and fines are easier to collect -- and a bigger deterrant.
Would some people beat the fare? Sure, but perhaps no more than today, and you'd save the cost of all those conductors. Heck, I've beat the fare by accident on a number of occasions: I intended to purchase a ticket on the train (station office closed) but the conductor never got to the car I was in. The additional sales from Metrocard Machines in the stations might outweight additional intentional fare beating, if any.
Sort of like the London Rapid Transit. For the system to work, the MTA would have to do major renovations of the stations. Take most open air stations on Metro North and LIRR. It would be easy for anybody to fare beat, because instead of going out the exit, they could walk to the end of the platforms and climb out there, thus never paying. Conductors as well as ticketmasters would and could never be eliminated because of their unions. Your plan sounds good on paper, but I think if this plan was to ever go into affect, it would never work. You couldn't get rid of the workers and it would tempt more people to fare beat.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
There is an obvious and simple solution requiring no construction or schedule changes: Put SE Queens back in Nassau County. Once the map is changed, they will qualify for the same lower fares as all other Nassau residents. Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains. Frankly, I'm surprised that the LIRR doesn't have a residency requirement like some of the "public" parks on Long Island.
"Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains."
What exactly is it that makes you say that the LIRR is trying to keep the people of SE Queens off their trains?
(What makes you say the LIRR is trying to keep people off the trains)
Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. Contrast that with city policy during an LIRR strike. The city stops cleaning the streets so LIRR riders can park in its neighborhoods, and does all it can to accomodate LIRR riders on the subway.
>>>Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. <<<
I'm still steaming over that, no matter how many times it's explained to me how impossible it would be to accommodate Queens passengers during a subway strike.
Hey, I'm a people too. Make some plans for the next potential strike!
www.forgotten-ny.com
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.
There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations).
It would appear that Green and Shulman got 13 out of 14 correct. That would give them 92% mark on this item - much better than the LIRR's on-time performance.
Long Island City is still open.
You are correct. However with only 7 trains per day and no weekend service, an reasonable observer might find it difficult to find a pulse.
[ Long Island City LIRR is moribund -- 7 trains a day ]
Prior to the opening of the 34th Street Ferry, it was only 4 trains a day. That's a 75% increase in service!
You can also catch a free ride on a orange stripped bus to that ferry from Queens Plaza.
Mr t__:^)
[[She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.]
[There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.]
Long Island City has not been closed. Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago. As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
The MTA seems at some point to have had this idea that the commuter railroads should not be providing competing services in the city, and the subway should not try to attract suburbanites. I remember a decade ago having an MTAer wonder out loud why the Hudson Line had stations in the Bronx. Why compete with ourself?
I think that since the commuter railroads are getting such a large share of the toll surplus anyway, they should be adding more service in the city. And the MTA should open up more park-n-ride lots, so suburban riders can drive most fo the way in and take the subway. I know several people who drive in and take the subway. Competition is good.
...Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago....
It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.)
As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
I think a fair departure point would be the NYS purchase in 1965. This takeover would not have been possible had not NYC, Nassau and Suffolk forgiven their claim for overdue real estate taxes from the LIRR. Both Nassau and Suffolk have received continued and improved service, whereas NYC service has deteriorated.
(Since 1965, service in Queens has deteriorated, while Nassau and Suffolk have improved service)
Service has gotten worse in Brooklyn too, on those routes served by the LIRR. As for Nassau and Suffolk, they had it good for a while, but I wouldn't want to change places with them now. Transportation, in general, has been disinvested in for 30 years. Hence the battle to see who, if anyone, will get some investment.
Why did they totally destroy Elmhurst? I was never quite sure why they closed it, I was only 4 at the time...
>>>>It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.) <<<
Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago, only the barest trace remains today...if that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago (Elmhurst), only the barest trace remains today...if that much.]
LIRR management seems pretty diligent about eradicating any traces of closed stations. In the recent case of Holtsville, this was taken to an extreme. All that existed at Holtsville was a small shelter like you'd see at a bus stop, sitting on a concrete pad. The shelter was removed soon after the station closed a couple of years ago. Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's way.
>>Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of
existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's
way. <<<
Jeez, the LIRR eradicated all trace of Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman and Penny Bridge BEFORE those stops closed! I think they were imparting a subtle message there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Strange that they left Richmond Hill.
If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton
Make that 31. I forgot there were two Woodhaven stations, one on the Flatbush Ave. line and one on the Rockaway Beach line.
Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?
[Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?]
I haven't heard of one, although it might not be an entirely bad idea.
Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and have everybody else skip it.
Wayne
>>>>Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need
a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some
rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and
have everybody else skip it. <<<<
It would bring the number of active underground LIRR stations to two, unless you count Flatbush Avenue, which has been exposed somewhat by excavations around it.
No. Three. Penn Sta. and Flatbush Ave. are both underground.
No, I think Kevin was being a little sarcastic as you now can see some daylight and even a piece of the new mall at Flatbush Av. But then I guess under that reasoning the IRT station would not be underground either since its on the same level!!
Here's a question about the Panama Canal Zone.
What is that empty area alongside the Manhattan bound local platform, on the Bergen Street End? I know that curve on the Nevins end is for the Mineola.
Wayne, when it was open in the sixties there were only 2 or 3 trains that stopped there each way.
Yes, I know - perhaps that in and of itself is why nobody used it.
Wayne
Which came first, the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the . . . ?
THE PIG!
Since the closing of the station came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?
[Since the closing of the station (Woodhaven) came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?]
I don't see how - there was no reason why the M-1's couldn't serve the station.
A more likely explanation is that the closing of the LIRR Rockaway line left Woodhaven largely superfluous. What about the fact that more than a decade passed between the end of the Rockaway line and Woodhaven's closing? I'd attribute that mainly to the fact that the LIRR was and is a slow-moving bureaucracy. And don't forget that the MTA came into being during those years, which probably slowed the decision-making process even more. Finally, closing Woodside was unlikely to have been on the top of any must-do list, as the costs of keeping it open probably weren't much.
Bob...You forgot the Westbridge station, located at Jamaica Ave. on the main line from Penn. Sta., right before the Jamaica station.
Carl M.
Correct! (that's 32)
I was in the NYPL main branch map room the other day (a must for any NYC history or transit buff) and asked to see a 1922(!) Hagstrom of Brooklyn. I noticed that the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch was still an active passenger line in those days, though by then only a few stops like Rugby and Kouwenhoven were open by then.
The Queens Hagstrom from 1923 had similar fascinating revelations. I was all set to get it copied for use on
www.forgotten-ny.com
when the clerk informed me that because of the great age of the maps they couldn't risk putting them on the drum roll copier. Just as well, the Langenscheidt (Hagstrom's parent company) hired liars woulda been all over me no doubt, if Forgotten ever became a real mioneymaking operation.
Thief! Thief!
[If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton]
Better not let Claire Shulman know ...
By the way, where was Clarenceville?
Clarenceville was an old name for Richmond Hill. I guess they kept the name on the Atlantic Ave. line to distinguish it from Richmond Hill on the Long Island City line.
Ok, so that would mean the Clarenceville, Morris Park and Dunton stations were all there when the LIRR line was at grade (no evidence of any in the current tunnel, only Woodhaven).
Where was Union Course and Matawok? Since you have Matawok in with the Rockaway Branch stations, was it between Parkside and Brooklyn Manor?
Higbie Avenue - wasn't that Freight Only?
Wayne
Matawok was just east of White Pot Junction on the Main Line.
Union Course was between 81st and 82nd Sts. on the Altantic Ave. Line.
You may be right about Higbie Ave. in later years, but I have a timetable from 1911 that shows passenger service at "Springfield (Higbie Ave.)"
Hey Bob, what about the Raunt?
I didn't include it since it is on the part that is now serviced by by the subway.
>>>Long Island City<<<
LIC is still open for limited service...
This post is rather long. It is a question to the experts here at SubTalk regarding something that happened during my ride home tonight. Please tell me where I went wrong.
I was coming home to Woodhaven from downtown Manhattan with 3 other people whom I do not know all that well. We got on a J train at Fulton Street at about 6:30pm.
The train got only as far as Essex Street when an announcement came on saying that, due to a switching problem at Broadway/Myrtle, this J would be taken out of service. Passengers were advised to take other routes, since the delay could be lengthy.
So, I quickly suggested that we go downstairs to catch a Brooklyn-bound F to Jay Street, where we could then take the A to Queens.
Good plan, agreed everyone in my party. The F and the A each arrived within minutes, and we were on our way. The only remaining point of debate was whether to take the A all the way to Rockaway Blvd. and get a bus up to Jamaica Avenue, or to get off the A at Broadway Junction and get a J train.
I was in favor of getting off at Broadway Junction. Of course, all things being equal, I will take a train over a bus every time. In this case, however, the choice seemed even clearer than ususal that the J would be better than the bus up Woodhaven Blvd.
I figured that, once the problem at Broadway/Myrtle was cleared up, there would be several backed-up J (and M) trains coming in rapid succession. So, I reasoned, the wait for the J at Broadway Junction will be negligible.
After convincing my fellow travelers (all of whom wanted to take the A all the way to Rockaway Blvd.) of the soundness of my reasoning, we got off the A at Broadway Junction, and went up the escalator to the J platform.
As we got to the J platform, an uncommonly packed J was closing its doors and pulling out. One passenger was heard to say, "Waited a f---ing half hour for this sh--!"
I was feeling confident that my plan was working perfectly as my party and I strode down the platform. It seemed very likely to me that the J that had just left was the first one through after the problem at Broadway/Myrtle was remedied. That's why the disgruntled passenger had been waiting for "a f---ing half hour".
Therefore, I figured, that plethora of backed-up J trains was about to begin passing through the station, and we would see the next one any minute.
After 15 minutes passed, I was starting to get a sinking feeling, and I was receiving dirty looks from my travel mates. Still, I was somewhat confident that a J would come imminently.
Didn't happen.
After a HALF HOUR of standing there on the rapidly-filling platform, the people I was with finally got fed up. We actually walked back down to the A platform and, within five minutes, caught the next A train to Queens.
Left unspoken (but not unindicated by body language) was the group's unanimous opinion that I was one of the great jerks of our time.
My question is: What happened?!?!? Where did all those backed-up J trains go?
I mean, even a delay of only 10 or 15 minutes would be enough to bunch up the subsequent J and M trains, wouldn't it? And I *KNOW* that I got to Broadway Junction much faster via the F/A combo than I would have even on a non-delayed J.
So, there should have been backed-up J's arriving in rapid succession. Yet, the wait at Broadway Junction was many times LONGER than usual! Huh?? Where did all of the backed-up J's disappear to?
The J train that I was on was taken out of service; is it possible that the next several consecutive J trains were also taken out of service? I highly doubt it.
So, can someone explain what may have happened, and why my plan to catch a backed-up J train failed?
Thanks for listening.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Just a thought - could the J you saw have been at Broadway/Myrtle when the switch problem developed? If so, it might have been delayed there and been the last train sent through.
Sometimes we overthink a problem and begin to make assumptions that turn out to be invalid. Having been in your shoes many times, I just took the position that, if I catch something and its moving and going in my direction, stay with it. Your strategy of catching all the backed up J trains was obviously undermined by some circumstance that the announcement at Essex Street didn't report or foresee.
BTW, what alternative routes did the Essex St. announcement tell you to take, and did it state or imply that J service was normal at Broadway Junction?
You are absolutely right about "overthinking", and about the practice of staying with the thing you have. A "bird in the hand" sort of thing.
Also, the announcement at Essex Street didn't really suggest anything substantive, beyond the reminder that the F train was available downstairs.
I asked a motorman about J service at Broadway Junction and beyond, and he said that he thought (but didn't know for sure) that it was normal.
So, armed only with partial information and unwarranted assumptions (the classic recipe for disaster), I proceeded.
Next time a situation like this arises, I am STAYING ON THE A! First of all, the Woodhaven Blvd. bus (Q11)is not too bad. Additionally, staying on the A will help me avoid that stretch of J track from 1893, which is the single scariest thing that I have learned from reading NYCSubway.org.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The J trains may have been running in 2 sections. East and west of the problem. There must have not been enough trains or something.
Maybe there was a hole on the bridge and trains were falling into the river.
(Sorry, but you did ask where the backed-up J's disappeared to.)
Wrong bridge.-)
I had to do a reverse commute today on the LIRR. They had a flyer on every seat announcing a public forum on the east side (GCT) access issue. The flyer said service will be provided direct to GCT via the existing 63rd Street Tunnel Connection. What existing 63rd Street Tunnel Connection? I thought that was a subway connection or are there 2 63rd st. tunnels.
Also, when coming back into the city tonight, the train was flying and I mean SOOOO much faster than normal. The lights were flying by and the pressure in my ears was pretty bad, I still feel it now almost an hour later. What's the speed limit in the tunnel?
The 63rd St tunnel is two-level. Two tracks above another set of two tracks. It was designed for subway service on one level and rail on the other.
I dunno what was wrong with the Engineer, but My friend is A locomotive engineer 4 the LIRR, and he says that the speed limit is around 30 or less. Plus the Default signals are speed timed. I dunno how ur Engineer got away with that. Plus upon exiting the tunnel however, the speed limit is 70 ususally.
I dunno what was wrong with the Engineer, but My friend is A locomotive engineer 4 the LIRR, and he says that the speed limit is around 30 or less. Plus the Default signals are speed timed. I dunno how ur Engineer got away with that. Plus upon exiting the tunnel however, the speed limit is 70 ususally. By the way was it a M-3 or a Dual mode Locomotive? where was the Train headed?
the MTH catalogues are out Vol 2 2000
In the Railking section are R-21's set of four m.s.r.p $199.95 and 299.95.
They look real neat on paper . Due date Novenber 2000.
Kevin, First thanks you for your excerpts from the article and thoughtful comments. I also noticed that you identified the publication & author of the article but I feel I should offer a word of caution to all of us so we don't get ourselves or our host Dave in trouble.
The Copyright law holds that anything published after 1978 can't be quoted by more then 400 words without the expressed permission of the author/publication. Less then that you MUST credit the source/author.
However tables, charts & figures are NOT included in this 400 word exception.
P.S. You probally have noticed that I frequently lift comments from some article that I've read, but am always mindful of how far I can go before potentially creating a problem. I do this to alert/share with my SubTalk/BusTalk friends and appreciate when they do the same. There have been many subjects of great interest to me that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to learn about/obtain if it wasn't for the free exchange that occurs here.
Mr t__:^)
Can anyone suggest the best subway route from the Port Authority Bus Station to 80 Centre St. , which is near Foley Square? Thanks for your help!!
you can pick up the 8th ave subway at the port
authority--- take an a or c downtown to chambers
street--- you'll have to walk from chambers and
church east to broadway then to centre--- once by
city hall you can walk about 4 blocks north passing
reade, duane, thomas, and worth---
when you pass reade and duane streets-- look out for a duane reade drugstore--- they are all over the place :-)
Heypaul, they may be all over the place; but there is no Duane Reade drugstore between Duane and Reade on Centre Street. Nor for that matter does Thomas Street reach Centre Street. If you start walking East at Chamers and Church, you never pass City Hall; you pass the Tweed Courthouse between Broadway and Centre.
Otherwise, your instructions are perfect.
BTW, the Duane Reade is on Broadway, as is the intersection with Thomas Street.
don't bother me with details :-)
as far as duane reade drugstores, i mentioned it in the post when i realized that duane and reade street were right next to each other--- is that how they got the name of the chain?---
as far as thomas st. not reaching centre st., i wouldn't know about that--- i have never been in manhattan and base all my knowledge about the city on my trusty hagstrom street guide and information that i pick up on my cat whisker radio decoder ring---
Thomas never got down to Centre (it's always marginal, such a shame). Well, back in not my day, Thomas upon reaching Great George Street, would immediately become Pearl Street. Eventually, Pearl was shortened to end at the Street by the name of the Marquis de LaFayette by the construction of a building to house the local workings of the federation. Today, it ends at the street marking the Centre of the island of Manhattan.
Is the welded rail replacement program dead, or is there a schedual to do the entire system?
How come curves are not wedled? I understand curves wear faster,but couldn't sections of 78ft rails be used to replace worn track and reduce noiseand impact? What amount of pressure is on the bearings at each unwelded joint? I noticed that the noise and wear seems greatest at insolated joints not over a tie.
I just took a look at the ungodly mess on Fourteenth Street @ Broadway caused by yet another in the city's endless series of water main breaks. L service has been suspended and the N/R are running on Sixth Avenue. Lexington trains are still running, but I've heard that there are some delays. And let's not forget the absolute chaos on ground level ...
I heard the "L" is running as far as Bedford Avenue - but where does THAT leave everybody trying to get into Manhattan? And where are they turning the "N"'s they're supposedly running up 6th Avenue? Better idea would have been instead of running the "N" up 6th Avenue, turn it at Whitehall Street and run some of the "L"s up 6th Avenue via Broadway Brooklyn, Essex Street and B'way Lafayette.
I take it this will be an ongoing situation throughout the day...
Wayne
[I heard the "L" is running as far as Bedford Avenue - but where does THAT leave everybody trying to get into Manhattan?
I take it this will be an ongoing situation throughout the day...]
Well, uh, maybe the L riders can scavenge old lumber on the Williamsburgh waterfront and build rafts to cross the East River :-)
By the looks of it, I suspect that disruptions will continue for a while.
the chuds would have to relocate!
but at least go past 14th St, turn around 21st Queensbridge.
what's a chud????????
Sounds like a special breed of skell that lives in the tunnel between Essex Street and B'way Lafayette.
Wayne
Scam women with bandaid on face!
L riders could get off at Lorimer St and take the G to Hoyt St for the A or C. Also, take the G to Queens Plaza for E or F service.
Ever try getting onto a "F" at Queens Pza or an "A" at Hoyt? Sardines. They'd have been better off walking. No shuttle bus to Marcy, eh?
Hope the water didn't damage things in the "L" station. The white tile is new and the original stuff at the top has been nicely restored. Newscast showed a Slant R40 getting a bath from the cascading water. Wonder if that train was damaged. They said the "L" train was running through there but skipping Union Square.
Wayne
I thought only the R was running on sixth, and the N is turning at 34 and whitehall, for N and S respectively....What good does it do you to reroute the N trains on sixth, it's still not possible to reach the astoria line, right? Also some F's were being diverted over the crosstown line, to ease up congestion on the 6ave line. It took a wicked long time to get onto the MannyB this morning, so it must have been way over capacity.
Question: Is there a staffed tower at DeKalb? If not would they bring in a leverman for a situation like this morning?
dave
It took me an hour to get from 71 Cont. to Queens plaza, on an E, then when I trans to and A at 42 a D followed my E on the local tracks.
I've never understood this routing -- there's no way to get the trains back onto the BMT if they don't cross under 53rd street. (until Coney Island) They need to (re?)build a crossover between B1 and B3 between West 4 and B.Way Lafayette and this would be fixed. The same thing happened when Seventh ave station flooded last fall
dave
Technically there is - route them to Rutgers Street tunnel then cross over north of Jay and then down the "F" line to Coney Island, if the switch north of West 4th cant handle the traffic.
Wayne
Now they have less flexibility since they removed some of the rails from the diamond crossover north of Jay Street. If the F falls apart south of W4 St, they cannot send them down Eighth Ave to Jay St. It looks like another switch project is starting.
But there's no need to switch over north of Jay St. The Rutgers tunnel tracks lead directly to the Smith St.-South Brooklyn and Culver lines.
I stand corrected. What the hell was I thinking?
Wayne
I think you meant the Cranberry tunnel, not the Rutgers tunnel.
subfan
Oh, perhaps a stuffed train on a brutally hot day, the heat on, etc.-)
When it was built, the route from upstairs to downstairs (southbound) at West 4th was a good move because it would take you back down the "F" line. which was pretty much a reroute for trains to get to Jay St. Remember, when the IND was built, there was no provision for it to go over the Manhattan Bridge. Grand Street and the Chrystie connection didn't enter service till 1967.
Yes, but now that chrystie street IS built, there should be a way to get from 8th ave to the MannyB and there currently is not...
If something goes wrong between 59th/8th and 42nd/6th, like the flood, the D and B have no southbound service at all
db
I saw a Brooklyn bound D on the local track at 34th/8th this morning. I imagine it was there to free up space along 6th Ave.
Chuck
I saw one too about 9:30
As of about 12:30 pm, the N and R were back to normal service. The L is still out, though.
As I got off the #4 train this morning at Union Square, there were all sorts of announcements about the water main break and what people's alternatives were.
What I found kind of funny was they kept telling people to "use the IRT."
I wonder how many people this confused since they didn't give any additional information such as "use the Lexington Ave IRT" or the "IRT 4,5,6"
Of course, I knew what they meant.... :)
as of this morning i still have not heard from
salaamallah about meeting with him saturday morning
to do a filming of the canarsie line--- he was
travelling by car from la--- i gave him directions
for the scenic route through fairbanks alaska, so
perhaps he will be a tad delayed
doug, aka juniors cheesecake man, has suggested that
a group of people interested in either riding the
canarsie line or listening to me flame all the
people i have wanted to ( but haven't out of fear of
being held for decimation of character) meet about
1 PM perhaps at 8th ave and 14th st on the 10th step
of staircase m24--- the exact location and time is
still being decided---
be sure to bring a chainsaw, blowtorch, and a 30
foot extension ladder in case of unforeseen
obstacles---
seriously--- if you would like to meet up with
several of the greatest subtalkers as well as me,
keep your eye(s) on this message board....
Today (THURSDAY) is March 2nd -- Saturday is March 4th on all the calendars (including Bill Newkirk's subway calendar) around my house!
okay--- give me a break--- my calculations were thrown off by it being a leap year--- and don't come back and tell me that leap year is only 1 extra day--- on my calendar which is based on the lunacy cycle, there are 2 extra days in a leap year ( with the exception of 2008 when there are 5 extra days )
To maximize the benifit of salaamallah's short visit to NYC and the L, maybe heyPaul should ride in the last car with camera and sound recording device in hand, while the rest of the group would be at the front rail fan window of the Slant 40 ;-)
Seriously, have a great time, sorry I have to miss this one.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, we'll expect your honored company on one of the other trips that I'm sure are likely to be planned at a later date.
BTW, I sincerely hope the DEP gets the water-main break situation under control by tomorrow so that our scheduled ride with salaam on the L Train is not thwarted.
This morning's rush had ALL Manhattan-bound trains terminating at Bedford Ave. It was almost as bad as the Willy B. Closure maddness!
Doug aka BMTman
in the event the tunnel remains flooded on saturday,
i have arranged with the central park boat rental to
rent 3 canoes--- this way we can get from 8th ave to
bedford ave by canoe, beach them at bedford, and
proceed to rockaway parkway by electric power---
i also have one of our trusty scouts on the lookout
for another appearance of the r110's on the canarsie
line--- if he spots it again, he will lead us on
this once in a lifetime opportunity--- be sure to
bring your cameras on saturday to record the
event--- last time no one had a camera and people
thought that the sighting was a frigment of his imagination..
At least the 14th street staion will be nice and clean...
I hope to be able to attend I am dying to meet some of you
Peace,
Andee
Heypaul, you didn't say anything about your gas grill.-)
I'll be with all of you in spirit. Have fun!
Back about the late 60's, the SIRT had a car shortage. Anybody remember how many and what type of LIRR cars where borrowed and for how long?
quez is worth 10 pts towards final.
SIRT used 2500-series LIRR cars for a couple of weeks back in 1972.
I don't think more than a total of ten cars were involved.
Wayne
By the way, how did those units get out to SIRT?
-Stef
I would guess they were car floated out, perhaps from Bay Ridge.
Wayne
I beleive Ping-pongs were used for the TO,s not sure.
03/02/2000
Nope, the (MP-54) Ping Pongs weren't used. The MP-72's (#2500's) were used. They were surplus with arriving M-1's. I gues the LIRR wanted to have a standard type electric MU. Also at that time, the MP-72's were fast becoming the recently retired "push-pull" diesel coach fleet.
Bill Newkirk
Does the MP-72 or MP-54 mean MU passenger 54ft long, MU passenger 72ft long?
What happened to the low profile deisel coaches, I think they where Known as Worlds Fair cars?
Were they once self powered, electric that is? How long where they?
03/03/2000
Avid reader,
1) The "MP" designation stands for "motorized passenger", for the type of coach. This was an old Pennsylvania Railroad custom, which the LIRR was a part of years ago.
2)The low profile "World's Fair" or "Zip" cars, AKA MP-85, were the first to be retired with the arrival of the new bi-level fleet. You never saw these once MU, push-pull converts in a full consist. they were always mixed with the ex-MP-72's (taller roof cars). They had horrendous brakes and had to be mixed with the others.
3)The MP-85 were delivered as electric MU's with cab and non cab cars in time for the 1964-65 World's Fair. Yes, they were 85 feet long. I don't know whether they were scrapped or bought by tourist railroads. The ex-MP-72's were.
Bill Newkirk
LOL
Avid Reader: A total of five cars of what I believe was called the MP-54 class were transfered to SIRT. There were on SIRT property from May 1972 until the later part of 1973. They were used as a two car set and a three car set. The numbers were 2505,2509,2517,2646 and one other.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode those LIRR units when they were on the SIRT system. As said by Larry,RedbirdR33 there was a total of five cars, a two car and three car setup. They had to space them out in the schedule because they had doors only at the ends and with the two/three seating it made boarding slow. I know they were longer than the SIRT 67 foot MU's, which made station positioning different.
I recall when I moved to the island in 1960 the SIRT had a fleet of 60 MU's for the South Shore line. They had sent some off to Brooklyn when they gave up the South Beach and North Shore lines. A bad fire in the Clifton yards in the early sixties cost them 7 MU's. The rest just deteriorated due to old age until they were running the line with just 22 cars. Then the five LIRR's showed up in 1972. Running that line with 22 cars made rush hours a trip. I would get on in Huguenot Park bound for the ferry on a two car train and usually that was the last stop except for Oakwood & New Dorp where there are two high schools. The B&O finally had to give up the line.
I rode those LIRR units when they were on the SIRT system. As said by Larry,RedbirdR33 there was a total of five cars, a two car and three car setup. They had to space them out in the schedule because they had doors only at the ends and with the two/three seating it made boarding slow. I know they were longer than the SIRT 67 foot MU's, which made station positioning different.
I recall when I moved to the island in 1960 the SIRT had a fleet of 60 MU's for the South Shore line. They had sent some off to Brooklyn when they gave up the South Beach and North Shore lines. A bad fire in the Clifton yards in the early sixties cost them 7 MU's. The rest just deteriorated due to old age until they were running the line with just 22 cars. Then the five LIRR's showed up in 1972. Running that line with 22 cars made rush hours a trip. I would get on in Huguenot Park bound for the ferry on a two car train and usually that was the last stop except for Oakwood & New Dorp where there are two high schools. The B&O finally had to give up the line.
I have a favor to ask of all, I am in the process of updating my map collection and I need those that live in ALL cities that have transit systems, NOT JUST NYC, and I'd like maps of all types of systems (light rail included).
I really appreciate this
Thank You,
Mark Greenwald
232 W. Fairview Street
Piedmont, WV 26750-1106
In Case anyone is interested the following Long Island Engines were being moved around and possibly out of the yard at the New York Cross Harbor
274, 267, & 264 they were being moved by NYCHRR Engine # 11
This happened a couple of times at Main Street. The start lights (string of 3 green lights hanging from ceiling) come on, the doors close, and the train just sits there for about a minute while the signal stays at Red/Red. During this time, the doors stay closed. Why don't the doors re-open to let waiting passengers get on until the signal clears?
Don't the T/O's signal two buzzes when the Home Ball clears?
Actually what happens is the start lights come on, the train doors close, and the train just sits there waiting for the signal to clear. Pretty dumb, don't you think?
a-yup.
Seeing as how common sense has been pretty much legislated out of existence, it doesn't surprise.me.
Train being run by people who have no sense.... (IMHO)
Starting lights, as defined in the rules and regulations, as well as holding lights, are displayed by supervision, therefore to an extent overruling the communications between the T/O and Conductor. The lights apply ONLY to Conductors and One Person T/Os. On the Flushing Line where headways are maxed at under two minutes, an act of holding doors open until the Home Signals clears delays service more. The extra few seconds allows the trains to fill up, delaying service down the line. Some if not most terminals with automatic interlockings like 207 Street and Far Rockaway should automatically clear the home signals when the starting light buttons are pushed. Hope that helps.
When I was at Queens Plaza this morning they were re-routing R trains onto D3 because of the water main break. As we pulled in an R was on the local, doors closed. There appeared to be a lot of people trying to get on. Someone announced over the P.A. system "The operator of the R train must wait for his line-up with the doors closed." I'm assuming the interlocking wouldn't let him cross onto the express track until it was sure the train I was on was going to stop in time.
How many people who heard that announcment even know the term line up?
And I bet most of the time, the train is on M track and you're standing on the island plat shared with 2 track? In that case, the CR is closing down the other side of the train.
The 3-7 trip that was supposed to be taken has been CANCELLED and will be rescheduled on a Saturday at a later date. Sorry for any inconvenience :(
R36Gary
Thank YOU for th report........
Which Lines does the Long Island Railroad have that aren't Electrified? is the Montauk line Electrified? and if not, Do any M-3 or M-1 electrics go to Patchogue or Speonk at least? Also when you see a Signal(position) that says 3 yellow lights across over another Signal that diagonally shows 3 yellow lights(similar to an approach signal) what does that mean? For example, A Train from Hempstead to Flatbush avenue is headed up Archer avenue toward the Jamaica station. At Guy R Brewer Boulevard, where the signals are, Ususally I always see a signal displaying Stop over Approach. What does that mean? Also, since The LIRR got the DM30AC's, how do you activate the Dual-mode Feature upon entering the Under river tunnel which leads to Penn Station? Also do all the Dual-modes go to Penn Station or do they send some to Flatbush Avenue? Also those Trains where the BI-levels are the head end where the Engineer is Driving the Bi-level and a DE30AC is Tailing on the back, are those considered Electric or Diesel? Can they go to Penn station or no? Please Email me or Post a Response in the Railfan room. Email is E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
I believe the following lines are not electrified:
Montauk line from Babylon to Montauk
Main Line from Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Port Jefferson line from Hicksville to Port Jeff
Central branch from Hicksville to Babylon
Oyster Bay line from East Williston to Oyster Bay
The Long Island City line from Jamaica to LIC.
I'm sure they're just typo's, but:
"Port Jefferson line from Hicksville to Port Jeff
Central branch from Hicksville to Babylon"
should read:
Port Jefferson line from Huntington to Port Jeff
Central Branch from the Main Line cutoff to Babylon.
Chuck
Yes, you are correct! Thanks for assuming they were just "typo's" :-)
And the Main Line cutoff is Bethpage.
The main line is electrified from Hicksville to Huntington.
>Which Lines does the Long Island Railroad have that aren't
>Electrified?
Ronkonkoma to Greenport (4 trains a day)
East Wiliston to Oyster Bay (a few more trains a day)
Babylon to Montauk (Not many)
Huntington to Port Jeff (Lots - probbly next line to get electrified)
And that short connector between the Babylon and Ronkonkoma line - I think the LIRR's thinking of doing that and out to Speonk in a few years (fingers crossed :)
>Is the Montauk line Electrified?
Only to Babylon.
>and if not, Do any M-3 or M-1 electrics go to Patchogue or Speonk at
>least?
No - The LIRR's probbly tried it though. (they once routed a Ronkonkoma train to Babylon over the non-electric Central branch between the two) The electrics all (normally ;) terminate at Babylon though.
>Also when you see a Signal(position) that says 3 yellow lights across
>over another Signal that diagonally shows 3 yellow lights(similar to
>an approach signal) what does that mean?
Slow approach, I think.
The LIRR's weird though. Position light signals every mile or so, AND cab signals. Don't they have some non cab and dark territory too still? I think the leaning tower of PD is still standing...
>Also, since The LIRR got the DM30AC's, how do you activate the Dual-
>mode Feature upon entering the Under river tunnel which leads to Penn
>Station?
You don't. About the only thing the LIRR did that was smart with those locos is they made them to run for extended periods in electric mode. Thus, the train's supposed to switch over once it enters electric territory. A switch on the console does that.
Switching at Babylon / East Williston / Huntington is a Good Thing (tm) because that way - if the loco can't switch, it doesn't tie up all the traffic.
And electrics are just plain cooler :)
And it's fun to watch diesel fans freak as they watch what looks like a diesel blast through the station nearly silently. "Where's the noise and smoke ?!?" :)
>Also do all the Dual-modes go to Penn Station or do they send
>some to Flatbush Avenue?
They can't fit into the tunnels to FBA.
> Also those Trains where the BI-levels are the head end where the
>Engineer is Driving the Bi-level and a DE30AC is Tailing on the
>back, are those considered Electric or Diesel?
Those are diesels. All the LIRR's true electrics are MUs - and single level (the double decker MUs are long since gone) It *is* possible to put a DM-30 on those and run them as electrics, but this isn't done because the train can get stuck in 3rd rail gaps.
>Can they go to Penn station or no?
No. All dual modes that enter Penn must have a locomotive at each end to prevent gapping as they enter Penn station. This is per Amtrak's rules I believe. Yes, Amtrak runs singles into Penn, yes, they probbably do get stuck, but let's face it, Amtrak isn't exactly fair to anyone but themselfs in Penn station.
[I think the leaning tower of PD is still standing...]
Yes, it's still standing and still leaning! I took this picture just a few days ago on President's Day.
Why the heck does Amtrak mandate 2 locos. A DM-30 can't gap, its DUAL MODE. Train = gap, Diesel = on, train = go. If they are worried about gaping just leave the engine in idle. If they are worried aboot fumes NJT leaves its Atlantic City trains ideling under 30th St. for extended periods and they don't cause people to get CO poisoning. Even right next to the loco you don't notice anything in the air. Also does anybody know a website with LIRR pics (nycsubway.org excluded).
[Also does anybody know a website with LIRR pics]
LIRR History Website
[>Which Lines does the Long Island Railroad have that aren't
>Electrified?
Ronkonkoma to Greenport (4 trains a day)
East Wiliston to Oyster Bay (a few more trains a day)
Babylon to Montauk (Not many)
Huntington to Port Jeff (Lots - probbly next line to get electrified)
And that short connector between the Babylon and Ronkonkoma line - I think the LIRR's thinking of doing that and out to Speonk in a few years (fingers crossed :)]
In addition, the lower Montauk line in Queens (Jamaica to Long Island City) is non-electrified. Not that it matters much, as it only has a couple of trains a day :-)
I might be wrong but I think the duals run diesel all the way to the tunnel. They definitely are loud while at Jamaica.
Are the Redbirds the last trains that are not stainless steel? If so, I wonder what the incentive will be to scrap B division trains as the R-143s arrive.
I saw a Transit Transit program on the new "Millenium Cars" the other day. The TA has upped the estimated life to 40 years -- a good thing, given how much they cost. Other than the redbirds, are there any cars that can't make it to 2010?
I'm not sure, but the R40/42 series has some rusting problems because they're not completely built of stainless steel. I don't think it's bad enough to stop any of them from running another 10 years. As for the R38's, I'm sure their roof problems could be dealt with using some type of patchwork.
Only the R46 and up have all-stainless bodies. The R44 have a carbon-steel band (the paint stripe, I don't no why) along the body. The R38/40/42 have steel roofs, I'm not sure of the R32. The roofs are all patched with bondo, aluminum foil, and duct tape.
-Hank
I believe the R32 is also all-stainless.
The R38, R40, R40M and R42 are "composites".
Some of the roofs on the CI R40s are quite a sight, all kinds of welds, patches, etc. on them. The ENY R40s are in better shape but quite a few of them have seen the Bondo Squad too.
Wayne
What exactly IS Bondo anyway?
Bondo is a trade name for what is generally referred to as body putty.
Some PCC cars have literly been held together by Bondo. Much of the P&W fleet in Philadelphia lived the last few years of their lives with copious amounts of Bondo. IRM removed several hundred pounds of Bondo during the Electroliner rebuild.
AH! The chewing gum part of "Spit and Chewing Gum."
If you've ever used cement which comes in two separate tubes and the two compounds (epoxy resin and catalyst/hardener) need to be mixed together, that's basically what Bondo is. The trick is not using too much of it. It's intended to fill in small holes and irregular spots on fenders and body panels which have gotten dented and subsequently smoothened out.
That being the case, I can see why the TA wants the 600 new cars. Recall that end of the 1980s, they wanted to go to a constant purchase of 150 to 200 cars per year. Then a recession, fiscal mismanagement and SHAZAM no new cars for 10 years.
Looking at the operating budget cash deficit, and the huge amount of city, state and MTA debt, I don't believe there will be a capital plan after 2004. At least it will be far scaled back. I'll bet that if a car can't last to 2015, they want it replaced by 2004, in case they have to go a full decade without any new ones.
The R30s, R40s and R42s have to go, or at least become unneccessary in a severe cutback environment. Let say you hand the R32s, the R44-46, the R68, and the 750 or so R143s. How many cars would that leave, relative to today?
All stainless steel is definitely worth the money.
Here in Boston the 0600 Blue LIne cars are only 21 years old but they are in tough shape. The rooves leak due to the pans and grids on the roof, and the water trickes down inside the carbody and saturates the thermal insulation. From there it rusts the carbody from the inside out at the floorline. The cars are entirely cor-ten.
Right now they are putting a stainless steel sheet on top of the rooves with plenty of caulking, in an attempt to prolong the life of the cars some more. The eventual idea is to replace them and save the 24 best as 3 8-car Orange line trains. This would up the Blue LIne fleet from 70 to 94 cars, enough for 6-car trains.
R-32's were BUDD--who held the patent for the 'shotweld' process for stainless. The St. Louis and PS cars indeed contain other materials and thus have potential corrosion problems.
Interesting, in a class the other day (Machine design II), we got toff on a tangent about this. Apparently, stainless steel and anything else is a bad thing, because of some electrochemical reaction that takes place. In fact, a stainless body with a carbon steel frame turns out to be a REALLY bad idea.
Such problems likely exist with aluminum, but like stainless, the advantages of aluminum are much greater than ordinary steels, and besides, the areas of fatique and corrosion are pretty well known today, and thus it's possible to design around these problems.
Stainless-Carbon steel turns into a natural battery when wet. As such, just like the lead in a lead-acid battery, the metals will start to corrode VERY quickly. That's why I couldn't believe that the R44 had carbon-steel on the body.
-Hank
Here's a shameless plug for my sprint PCS Samsung 3500 cell phone. I was on a moving 4 train between Fulton and Wall St. and it started ringing! The signal wasn't that great but I was able to tell my friend "i'm on the subway, I'll call you back."
Also, last week I was waiting on the N/R platform at 34th Street and it rang and I had a full clear conversation. I know you can usually use a cell phone on some underground platforms that are very close to the surface (old IRT stations) but usually not deeper ones.
Anyway, I used to have AT&T Wireless which barely worked above ground let alone in the subway, so I guess sprint PCS is best for us railfans.
The Metro in DC has cells for Bell Atlantic in the tunnels. If you have a Bell Atlantic Phone, it should work anywhere in the DC Metro.
You're kidding!! I've always thought that would be great idea, and really help whatever company did that. Do they advertise it well? That must help BAM sales... I wish SprintPCS would do that in Philly.
it shouldn't bee that hard they already work in the Holland, Linclon, tunnels
The Holland and Lincoln tunnels are wired for phones - AT&T owns the wires.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While we're on this subject:
Who here feels that cellphones should be BANNED from the system? I HATE it when I have to listen to conversations when I'm trapped in a subway car.
Would you ban people from talking to each other on the subway, too? Cripes! Like two people talking to each other in person is alright but someone talking on the phone is somehow much more disruptive?
I'm sure that most of the people who agree with you are people WITHOUT cell phones. I believe there was a survey done relating phone ownership and phone hatred.
Sorry to hear you had a disappointing experience with AT&T Wireless. I have their Digital One Rate plan, using a Nokia 6160, and have also had mine ring twice while underground in the system, once while on the southbound 4/5/6 platform at Brooklyn Bridge and once at South Ferry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whether it works or not depends on how deep you are, and how close you are to the cell site. Somewhere, I saw a map of every cell site in the 5 boros....now where was it....
-Hank
That's correct. Riding the 7 train, my phone works up to the entrance of the tunnel at Vernon-Jackson. But when the train enters Hunters Point, the phone( StarTac dual band from Sprint ) switches from digtal to analog mode.
[so I guess sprint PCS is best for us railfans]
I have a Sprint PCS Samsung and I'm lucky if I can get a minute of conversation in before the call is dropped. I so rarely have service that even in Times Square I usually see the Power Save text. So I could never even hope to have a conversation on the subway. The only reason I stay with Sprint is that it's cheaper. But it's cheaper because the quality is so much poorer.
I, too have the Samsung 3500 with SPCS. In Philly, I can't get a signal in any center city MFL station, and most are barely under the street! I see other people using their phones on the platform all the time; I assume they have ATT or BAM...
How about the pay phones on the LIRR's new tri-levels? Do they work in the tunnel to Penn? Yeah I know there are only a few dual modes.
When the Chrystie street connection was built, why didn't they install an interlocking so that trains on the north side would still have to option of going to Canal street and Broadway in case of emergency....? Like this morning when there was extra heavy traffic on the bridge due to re-routings, or more generally, so if say, the south tracks were shut down for a bzillion years, the Broadway express stracks could still be used. (The downside is that junctions at grade cause bottlenecks in and of themselves.)
dave
When it was designed, nobody knew how bad the bridge would get, nor the monumental repair job that would be needed.
(When Chrystie was designed, no one knew how bad the bridge would get)
Maybe they just didn't want to know. The City's chief bridge engineer recommended taking trains off the bridge, or at least moving them to the center, in 1955 according to a summary of a report I read. No one did anything from 1955 to the start of construction on Chrystie St to change things, other than let the bridge rust. I think its a matter of lousy communication.
In retrospect, the sensible option would have been to:
1) Reconfigure the 2nd Avenue station to have the express tracks go through the Rutgers Tunnel, not the locals.
2) Build the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, as much discussed. This would have put one and perhaps two BMT services through to the 6th Avenue express, along with the Culver. If they had worked to keep capacity high, the F, D, B could just about fit today.
3) Extend the 6th Avenue Local tracks east to new terminal -- possibly to be extended to a Willie B replacement tunnel if needed, or a ferry terminal, at a later date.
4) Move two bridge tracks into the center, direct into the BMT Broadway express, and:
5) Somehow hook those DeKalb bypass tracks into the Montigue tunnel beyond Court St, to avoid the DeKalb, Lawrence, Court St crawl.
Given the added cost of construction in Manhattan, all that probably could have been done for the cost of Chrystie St.
That new terminal in Brooklyn could be S. 4th St. Heck, part of that station is already there.
And yet another not mutually exclusive option could have been (and still be) running the Brighton local on the route of the Franklin shuttle, lowering the shuttle route from north of Park Place to connect with the Fulton St. line, running it non-stop to Hoyt-Schermerhorn (adding at that junction station two extra tracks) and then through the Rutgers St. tunnel. That at least could have removed the Brighton locals from the DeKalb--Manhattan Bridge bottleneck.
Since the intent was to run trains on the north side up 6th Ave, it was probably deemed superfluous to put an interlocking in. ALso, the slope of the curve from the bridge to Grand St may have created a dangerous place to put an interlocking.
--Mark
I would like to know how Amtrak handles their Engineers. Say if an Engineer goes on a Train from New York headed for boston, does the same Engineer make that entire trip? Also, if U were an Engineer for Amtrak what benefits do you get? Also, what would your children or family think of you? Also how many hours do you work a week? Will you ever C ur Family? also an Amtrak Engineer told me that you have 2 get experience of operating a Train from another Railroad before you go to Amtrak? Would it be smarter to stay with Long Island Railroad or go to Amtrak? Thank you. Please post a Response or Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
There are crew change points, NYP being one of them on a WAS-BOS run. Long distance as well. I have a friend who works the Silver Services New York-Jacksonville-Miami (Meteor: #97, 98 Palm: #89, 90 Star: #91, 92 ) takes the train to
When traveling to Florida, I take the Auto Train from Lorton, VA. The service is non-stop, but a crew change and refueling is done at Florence, North Carolina. The process takes about a hour and is done around 1 am . ( If it's on schedule )
That's Florence, South Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oops, right city, wrong state. Thanks.
Hey trolley fans! There is a cute game out by "Challenge Products" called "Trolley Time Challenge". I just got mine through the Boston Railway Magazine (book section). You really have to be quick with the mouse. Close doors, ring gong, release brakes, and notch the controller up gradually. Do anything wrong or out of step, and you trip the circuit breaker. It's a lot of fun. I'm getting my stopping at stops with the air brakes pretty good, now. There are various routes you can try, also.
Chuck Greene
I hope they've gotten the bugs out of it now. I participated in a Beta test of it about three or four years ago - the concept was great but it had a lot of glitches then (guaranteed to dewire at any right-hand switch unless you tried to open the door - then it would take the switch just fine, among other bugs). Enjoyed it anyway but never bought a copy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't played with it enough to find any bugs, yet! I'll keep you posted.
Chuck
How much was it?
I believe it was $39.95 plus $5 or so postage/handling from the
Boston Street Railway Association. Here is a link to their Web site. Click on
"catalog." Although I don't see the software on the current listing,
contact them via mail or email and they can give you the exact
info. My copy arrived within a week of ordering.
thanks!
Now we're talking!!! I am bona fide Rapid Transit Buff, but I've grown to appreciate the Streetcar Fleet which Shore Line possesses presently. What a way to become a streetcar pro. Now if they would just produce a simulator of ConnCo woody going down the road, I'd be happy. The trolley simulator might be good for those, who are interested in becoming trolley operators. Lou? Doug? Thurston?
It is now possible to sharpen our skills for the real world.
Now I'm starting to think that my friends at BERA should have a trolley car simulator to train new streetcar operators. Jeff, what about it?
-Stef
The Trolley Time Challenge game happens to be on the computer
in the office at the museum. I've played it and, well, let's
just say it is a video game based loosely on streetcar operation.
In particular, I tried to plug the car. It's a two-motor car
so I shut off power, then threw the reverser back. The virtual
circuit breaker popped. Um, not quite. That's OK, because
the circuit breaker had to be thrown anyway, but upon moving
to the first parallel point the car failed to enter dynamic
braking.
The Deng Xia De Go (I know I'm spelling it wrong) game on the
Japanese Nintendo is much better.
I bought mine through the Boston Street Railway Association (BSRA).
It's neat. I'd especially recommend it for folks who are planning
to attend "real" trolley operation training this year. It gets you
into the right line of thinking -- release the brake before starting,
ring the gong at the right times, etc. I especially like the fact
that the breaker pops if you notch up too fast!
i just got off the phone with salaam--- he is only going to be in new york through tomorrow, so it seems saturday with salaam is out--- i may try to meet him sometime tomorrow morning--- he will be calling me in the morning--- he told me he reshot the #5 but did not do the l or j as yet---
on a personal note--- i was surprised that he spoke without any capitals, exclamation points, or mention of railfan windows---
for people interested in meeting on saturday, it looks like 1 pm on the canarsie line l platform at 8th ave and 14th st near the head end of departing trains...
Sorry Paul, I'll be in R17 Muck III by then. Maybe next time. Please give some windex to salaam for me if you see him.
Actually, salaam has mellowed a bit of late. He's basically put the railfan window issue to rest, although I understand how he feels.
This happened Wednesday night around midnight to 12:30ish on the D going to Coney. We were stuck behind the money train (no not the one from the movie, I mean the Collector Train). It was getting a bit annoying and you could here it in the conductors voice as we were creeping from block to block.
When we get to Kings Highway, poof, there were three reveune agents with bags of (coins/tokens whatever) on the platform and the money train was down the track switched to express. Seems I guess they decided to ride the revenue train to Ave U and let the Money Train clear out of the way (switched to express).
Thank you TA, I hope this doesn't break any rules but Customer Service came first (should have done it at Prospect Park >G<).
It's no wonder someone didn't try and rip the agents off. Hey! Anything's possible.
-Stef
Hey, Stef, I could've really used the money to help in my efforts to purchase those HO scale R-38 cars!
In any event, best good wishes to you and LFB (Lou from Brooklyn) on the third go-round on the R-17.
Sorry, but prior commitments (to the 'salaam welcoming committee') prevents me from aiding you guys this weekend.
Doug aka BMTman
If you read heypauls post about salaam, he's not gonna be with you on Sat. He's apparently leaving NY Friday evening for Railfan windowless LA.
At least it was a D train. If it had been a Q, I know I would have been miffed.
My ride in this morning was a bit crazy. Crawled up 6th Ave (as normal) but got stuck on the F. Seems Lex Ave was OVERCROWDED with THREE trains dumping pax with the R reroute over the F.
At 5th Ave we were told the train would stop at Lex but would not open the doors unless the Police told the conductor it was okay.
At 23rd Ely, missplaced L commuters that just got of the G got on the Queens Bound F and were slightly upset they were going the worng way. Hey they got on the train, the otherside was wall to platform edge of people.
Queens Plaza did not look so hot as well, platform full of people.
Queens Boro Plaza was STUFFED with people waiting for N's and my bus stop in front of work (Queens Transit Buses and one NYCTA to Penn) was full of people, normally there is maybe one person here.
Intresting ride.
What kind of signals does NJT use on the lines leaving Hoboken.
There was a accident several years ago. A engineer ran a red light and apparently there was nothing to stop the train. Do they use a fixed block signal system like the NYCTA?
How about the Northeast Corridor? They use the signal like the LIRR?
On the LIRR the speed is indicated by small lit up numbers. On NJT do they use the same thing or is it a LED display?
On the LIRR is the max speed indicator have a zero at each end?
It would seem if they used lit numbers a zero at each end would make it easier to decifer.
Example: 0 7 for 7MPH and 5 0 for 50MPH.
New Jersey Transit uses standard 3 colour signals using the standard NORAC signaling system on all of its lines except the NEC which uses a mix of PRR position and retrofitted PRR colour position light signals. Most NJT lines are equipped with PRR style 4 speed cab signaling. I would also guess that its older GP-40 locomotives (rebuilt at Altoona) would use the Conrail position light cab signal interface and that its newer locomotives would use an Amtrak style colour PL w/ digital speed read-out or a simple colour light system w/ or w/o digital speed readout. Because NJT is a full NORAC member its CSS will be of the 4 speed system and will use either PL's or CL's in the cab. The LIRR is not a NORAC member and can use lit numbers only. Like all other railroads NJT uses a fixed block system, but cab signals over-ride the wayside signals so an engineer can act on different indications recieved in the same block. The 4 speed CSS system has SLOW as its slowest speed so a train can run red signals at speeds lower than 15 mph.
Here's a question for you. How does the LIRR cab-signal system work. I know it was installed as a PRR system (4 speed), but you make it sound like it has many more speeds. If it does, how do they do it?
I believe the LIRR's system was updated to include more than 4 indications. The number 7 sticks in my mind for some reason. BTW - the PRR's system might have been 4, but MP-54 #4137 (at Seashore) only displays 3 - 15, 30 and MAS. And no speedo. Go figure...
What does these sign mean? They are wayside on the LIRR ROW.
1) End Info Zone
2) Yellow signs with numbers on it (Example: 55) Speed?
3) Test ASC
4) Begin Info Zone
Begin and End Info Zone refer to wayside radio transmitters that broadcast informational announments to crewmembers on LIRR radio channel 4. Announcements are usually along the lines of "because of earlier problems, advise your passengers that there are delays out of Penn Station" or "be advised temporary platforms are in use at Woodside." The transmitters' power is low enough that they're usually only audible between the Begin and End Info Zone signs.
--Mike
Hi everyone, I have not given up on these subtalk awards. First I would like to thank all of you who sent in some Nominations. Seconds I would like to yell at all those people who have not sent in nominations. These awards can not work with out your input, Incase you forgot here are categories. A '+' indicated that I NEED NOMINATIONS for that category.
Best Thread ++++
Best Subtalker in a leading role ++++
Best Subtalker in a supporting role ++++
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role ++
Best Website Host
Funniest Subtalker +
Best Flamer ++
Best Impersonation of a Subtalker
Worst Transit Official ++
Worst Elected Official (transit wise) ++
Subway Criminal of the Year +
Best Subway Supporter ++
Best Subtalker in the field +++
Best Attached Pic..
Most creative handle
Most changed handle
Best contributed article ++++
Best contributed photos ++
Most prolific poster ++
Most prolific debator +++
Life time award ... Subtalker since day one & still active
Funniest Single Post ++++
Best Website Maintained by a Subtalker
Best Overseas Contributor ++
Technical Awards
Best Transit System + (I need something other than NYC!)
Best Forigen Transit System +
Best Subway Car (any system) ++
Best Subway Car (NYC) ++
Best Station (NYC) ++
Best Line (NYC) ++
Best Station (any system) ++
Best Line (any system) ++
Best Commuter Railroad
Best Interlocking Tower (need NYCS towers)
Best Yard +
Best New Transit Project (completed) (need something other than R33)
Greatest Transit Boondoggle (pending or completed)++
OK, to show you that I have been doing some work on this, the following categories are complete.
Best Attached Pic
-A BMT Lines Christmas
-Happy New Year by David Cole
-Satirical NYC subway signs by David Cole
-Transit Info banner
Most Changed Handle
-Pigs of Royal Island running unopposed
Most Creative Handle
-LIAR to New York Pig Station
-The "Humans" series (those w/ many names get more nominations)
-The Transit Professional Formerly known as Mr. R-46
-Anon_e_mouse
Best Commuter Railroad
-New Jersey Transit
-Long Island Rail Road
-Metro North
-MTBA
Intertionally left off- SEPTA
Best Yard
-Coney Island
-West Side
-Sunnyside
-139th St.
DON'T FEEL THAT THESE ARE CLOSED. I COULD ALWAYS USE MORE.
And some categories that NEED MORE NOMINAIONS.
Best Interlocking Tower
-HAROLD
-DOCK
-....
-....
Worst Subway Car
-R33 Single
-Boston 01400
-...
-...
E-mail Me!
Since 1944, the LIRR has used the unusual spelling Rail Road.
Why the change? I'd imagine it's an archaic rendering from when the LIRR got started in 1836...right?
I gotta go catch the Sub Way now.
--Walsh, For Gotten NY
The term Rail Road was common in the 19th century. After
all, you had a dirt road, a paved road, a rail road. A typical
charter might read: "The X Avenue Rail Road Company is authorized
to construct a rail road running from.....". The Rail Road was
the track. It wasn't until later in that century that the term
became shortened through common usage to Railroad and also included
the overall operation.
"Rail Road" for the LIRR that goes much further back than that. Apparently "Rail Road" was on the original incorporation papers. I've seen equipment photos and various paperwork at different times whch have "Rail Road" and "Railroad."
Spelling variations sometimes reflect corporate changes. Such changes happened on the SIRT over the years. A story I like to tell is that, when Silver Leaf wrote the SIRT book in 1965, it was the Staten Island Rapid Transit RailWAY. It happens that the SIRT itself sold the SIRT book at its St. George ticket office, and each month Silver Leaf received a check from the SIRT--on the envelope the return address said "Staten Island Rapid Transit RailROAD."
My point is, even documentary evidence isn't always the last word.
Amd just to make the point further, what is the legal name of the passenger operation on Staten Island today? If you said "Staten Island Railway" or "MTA Staten Island Railway," you would be wrong.
Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority..
ALL MTA agencys still retain their official names...
NYC Transit Authority..
Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority..
Metro-North Commuter Railrod...
Long Island Rail Road...
Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority...
Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority
Staten Island Rapid Transit Operation Authority.
-Hank
You also have the dba issue, i.e. doing business as ....
e.g. The TA memo's I get say NYTC with no more AUTHORITY in the name that is, but they are still realy NYCTA officially.
Mr t__:^)
Last week, skeeting by the 181st Platform on the
Northbound 1, I noticed a sketching of "FEAR" in
giant silver letters on the brickwall of the
downtown side and thought "oh swell, how will
THAT come off"... this week on another skeet-by
I see the silver coloring has jobbed out to
erasure.. HOW??
At South Ferry recently, R-62 #2391 undershot
the Gap Filler and promptly opened it's doors
(with Gap Fillers unattached) and the T/O
quickly exited his cab as if to confer with
the Tower folks.. an announcement came over
the SF PA "don't exit the train" and followed
by a quick closure of the doors (clipping the
T/O in half-exit) before he realized the
Grand Canyon that stood between his train and the
Platform... shift forward.. Gap Fillers come out..
everyone smiles.. WHEEEEEW!!..
Sitting on a 2 (9154) I recently got my head
smacked right into the hinge on the panel behind
the control cab.. all from train motions.. sure
it might have hurt.. but to think it was a redbird
that bonked me made me smile and the pain went..
There was talk of the Transit Museum undergoing
"renovations".. I visited recently.. what is there
to fix/upgrade/change???????...
SouthFerry1/9
There was talk of the Transit Museum undergoing "renovations".. I visited recently.. what is there to fix/upgrade/change???????...
Better ADA compliance, improved ventilation (and A/C).
--Mark
When i went to the tranist museum (2 days ago) last they said that they were going to improve the buses and add a state of the art train simulation. Maybe to compeat with the Museum of Natural History's new addtions
Am I the only SubTALKer who finds themselves
INTENTIONALLY waiting for a REDBIRD?
Furthermore, are there any current REDBIRDS
running on the IRT 1/9 line? Read about a
recent sighting at 168th.. do any current
REDBIRDS still roam the 1/9 corridor??
YOU....Are not alone. I'll pass by a 4 for a 5 anytime. (My luck...today the 5 was a 62A!)
No. The 1/9 is R62 and/or R62As (never can tell them apart). You must have seen a 2 that was on the 1/9 for some reason.
The No.1,9 Line has a full R62A Fleet only. The R62'S are only on the No.4 Line.
I used to wait for R-62s on the 3 instead of Redbirds on the 2. I stopped doing that because I'd rather get home faster, and it's not like they're so different anyway.
And I did tell about the time when I was waiting, waiting, waiting for and R-62 at Grand Central and none came for a half hour so I just got on a Redbird 4. That I think is when I stopped the practice.
Practice random acts of kindness..
ride a redbird.. i do.
If I'm waiting for an express on, say, the West Side, I will take the first one which arrives whether it's a 2 or a 3. Naturally, I hope it's a 2 (hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds), but since R-62As with half cabs can still be had on the 3, it's no big deal.
I will let A trains of R-44s go by in the hope of getting an R-38 train if time allows. Funny thing: during my last two visits to the city, the subway part got off to a good start. I started out at W. 4th St. both times, and on each occasion an A train of R-38s pulled in first.
I can top that.Ill wait for a Redbird with an empty front window...(if possible.)...Just what,pray tell, does this have to do with Jim Bouton???
>...waiting for an express....West Side......
>....I will take the first one which arrives
>....whether it's a 2 or a 3.
You're no fun.
>(hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds)
Sing it again, Sam!
OK, So I'm late to class on this one..
what's the story behind the Polo Grounds
being "sealed up and walled"?????????
Quoth Timon: DID I MISSSS SOMEEEETHINNNNG??!??!?!
i have been buying the daily news ever since the reporter told me that they would run a follow up article on railfans that would feature a 5 page spread on my contributions to railfannery and comedy--- i had hoped that i would be able to send the article to my father as an explanation of what i have been doing with my life for the last 30 years--- i currently send him copies of my posts on subtalk, but they are returned unopened as he doesn't accept unsolicited material--- he only reads material that an agent submits
putting my personal problems aside--- i will give the daily news two more days to clear their pages about politicians and professional wrestlers (which are two related professions)--- if the article does not appear by this sunday, i will resume buying the mirror and the world telegram and sun
i do not take insults lightly......
Your father sounds like a reasonable man, under the circumstances.
I will join your boycott of the Daily News.
In Unity there is Strength! (Or is it the other way around???)
Doug aka BMTman
If you are intending to switch newspapers, how about considering The Brooklyn Eagle or The Long Island Press? For the city I would suggest The Herald Tribune!
Pro Wrestling Rules, brah!!!!!!
It is little known, yet a historical fact, that the Interborough Rapid Transit Co. was in discussions with the LIRR to take over their Manhattan Beach Line, once it became obvious to the latter that the line was unlikely to survive as a standard railroad operation.
Service would have run west from Nostrand/Bay Ridge Line to the existing junction at E16th near Avenue I, thence on the then-new embankment to Sheepshead Bay and Manhattan Beach.
This would have given the IRT head-to-head competition with the BMT's bread-and-butter Brighton Line.
I have puzzled for decades over the IRT's failure to take advantage of this incredible opportunity. Now, finally, I have discovered a secret document in Heypaul's basement revealing the startling truth:
Top Ten Reasons the IRT Doesn't Go to Manhattan Beach
#10: Total lack of imagination.
#9: In IRT's dictionary "Monopoly" appears where "Competition" was supposed to be.
#8: Too circuitous route could not compete with Brighton Express.
#7: No one lived in Brooklyn south of Avenue H, nor would they.
#6: Encyclopedia in IRT headquarters was missing volumes from I through Z, so IRT thought Avenue H was at the shore.
#5: Fear that BMT Triplexes would beat up Lo-Vs.
#4: IRT already had two main lines that went in Manhattan--Why create a third just to serve its Beach?
#3: No experience at running on embankments.
#2: Soot from Manhattan Beach steam locomotives would stain nice clean tiles in IRT subway stations.
And the number one reason IRT trains do not run to Manhattan Beach:
#1: What would they do with all those freshly painted destination signs that said "Nostrand Avenue."
paul--- i didn't give you access to the real reason--- i keep this hidden in the food locker---
the kerosene marker lights would get blown out by the ocean breezes---
were the marker lights really fueled by kerosene or oil--- what actually kept them from blowing out?--- how often did they need to be refilled?--- was there really a 55 gallon drum of kerosene under each car feeding the lamps?--- did low v's ever get taken out of service because of a worn out wick?
were the marker lights really fueled by kerosene or oil--- what actually kept them from blowing out?--- how often did they need to be refilled?--- was there really a 55 gallon drum of kerosene under each car feeding the lamps?--- did low v's ever get taken out of service because of a worn out wick?
Actually, most of those are real questions.
The running lights (the lower ones) actually were oil lit. I don't know what the fuel was, but kerosene is probable. I don't believe the markers (top lights) were ever oil lit on the electric cars, but those used on locomotives probably were.
If you've ever used kerosene lamps for lighting or signalling, they are well baffled and don't go out easily. BTW, a Coleman-type kerosense lamp with a mantle produces a bright steady light--I found this out during Hurricane Gloria in 1985.
The IRT used kerosense lamps for running lights to the end, even on the cars they purchased for the 1939 World's Fair--see this photo from rapidtransit.net. I believe that they stuck with kerosene as a cheap dependable way of making sure there would be markers burning in the event of a power outage.
As to #5, the Triplexes minded their own business. As big and massive as they were, they didn't pick fights with other cars. The BMT standards, well, that's a different story. We all know what they did over the years to other cars.
Paul, verrrry funny post.
Are you trying to upstage our resident comedian, heypaul?
Doug aka BMTman
Come to think of it, have Heypaul and I ever been seen in the same place at the same time? And how come we're both married to women named Lois Lane?
heyPaul--- you're confused--- i was married to lois lane's sister margot lane--- as you should know margot lane was the companion of lamont cranston--- and as you should know i have never been seen in public because i am
THE SHADOW
#7: No one lived in Brooklyn south of Avenue H, nor would they.
Don't laugh - this could be true!
Ever notice that the rear of City Hall in Manhattan doesn't seem to match the other sides of the building? There's a reason for it - it was built with cheaper material that the rest of the building because it was thought that no one would live north of it, and therefore no one would SEE it!
Heard on the History Channel a while back.
--Mark
Perhaps if the Manhattan Beach and Oriental Hotels were still around, they might have gone for it!
Perhaps if the Manhattan Beach and Oriental Hotels were still around, they might have gone for it!
If those hotels could have been maintained, the LIRR would never have given the line up!
I really would have liked to have known the specifics of why the IRT passed up an opportunity like that. One issue might have been that the IRT was oriented toward volume, volume, volume, and they didn't think the line could generate that.
I found a MetroCard on the floor a while back (I don't remember where, though). I finally got around to swiping it through a card reader. After many attemps, and many "SEE AGENT" responses from the reader, I saw this message on the display:
NC SOCIAL SERVICE
NOT VALID HERE
BALANCE $1.50
EXPIRES ON 05/31/00
What does the first line mean, and why would it not be valid?
That's a Long Island Bus special MC ... I thought they were green or some other special color. They replace the special tokens that used to be handed out to folks. With the comming cut backs this may become quite a valueable find :-(
Mr t
I forgot to mention that it looks like an ordinary MetroCard.
[I forgot to mention that it looks like an ordinary MetroCard.]
I assumed that from your post.
For a while some of us saw public school cards looking like the regular gold ones too ... guess they ran out of "green" stock.
BTW, Has anyone seen a normal LI Social Service MC ? Is there one ?
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, Medicare/Medicaid pays for certain travel options.
-Hank
I spotted a northbound Q train passing Avenue J at about 7:45. It was ten R32 cars with the operating motor 3558.
Who says you can't go home again?-)
Keeping with the "Ten reasons why the IRT doesn't go to Manhattan Beach" posting, I've decided to add a Top Ten - well, Bottom Ten - list of my own.
THE TEN THINGS I HATE ABOUT NEW YORK
1. The bumbling, nutty-professor inability to get even the simplest infrastructure improvements accomplished (think of those two-year escalator repair jobs, not to mention the Second Avenue line).
2. Confiscatory taxes.
3. Stratospheric Medicaid spending.
4. Government's paternalistic, micromanaged instrusions into our lives.
5. The ridiculous, New-York-is-different mentality, which holds that normal rules of economics and society - and maybe the laws of physics - don't apply within the city limits.
6. The idea that people living outside of Manhattan are three-toothed hillbillies who marry their 12-year-old cousins.
7. Incessant racial tension.
8. The Upper West Side.
9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly.
10. The incessant whining that other parts of the country get all the breaks while New York is the unloved stepchild.
11. Overpaid militant unions (okay, so I'm up to 11).
12. NIMBYs (what's one more, at this point?)
To be fair, there is a counter argument to many of these.
1. The bumbling, nutty-professor inability to get even the simplest infrastructure improvements accomplished (think of those
two-year escalator repair jobs, not to mention the Second Avenue line).
Blame Robert Caro. He'll be the lead speaker at Hevesi's infrastructure forum at the end of this month.
2. Confiscatory taxes.
There is a federal policy of using spending formulas to make life more difficult in "affluent" states. That accounts for a lot of it.
3. Stratospheric Medicaid spending.
No argument here.
4. Government's paternalistic, micromanaged instrusions into our lives.
If you mean NYC, not NY State, we have more rules, but less enforcement. Where else in the U.S. can you pay your workers less than the minimum wage (and sometimes welch on even that), and not pay workman's comp, unemployment and FICA taxes, and pretty much get away with it? It is out in the burbs that you get micro-management, and a co-op board mentality.
5. The ridiculous, New-York-is-different mentality, which holds that normal rules of economics and society - and maybe the
laws of physics - don't apply within the city limits.
No argument there. People don't like to compare NY with other places.
6. The idea that people living outside of Manhattan are three-toothed hillbillies who marry their 12-year-old cousins.
Applies to the outer-boroughs also.
7. Incessant racial tension.
Worse elsewhere -- but less publicized.
8. The Upper West Side.
Now the Yupper West Side. The 1960s was a long time ago.
9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly.
Elsewhere, there is only one newspaper in town. Then again, you might not consider the News and Post newspapers.
10. The incessant whining that other parts of the country get all the breaks while New York is the unloved stepchild.
To a large extent there is a point here, and it is a new view. The old view -- the NYC elite, which didn't have to worry about taxes and public schools, concerned itself with symbolic social and cocktail party issues, while the rest of the country ripped us off. The new view -- we deserve the same consideration as everyone else.
11. Overpaid militant unions (okay, so I'm up to 11).
Actually, the average public employee in NYC earns less than in the private sector. The average public employee in the rest of the state earns far more than in the private sector. We have UNDERPAID militant unions. Our unions are militant about having their job performance equal their low wage. Where does the money go? See point #3.
12. NIMBYs (what's one more, at this point?)
Stupid NIMBYs more like it -- everyone has NIMBYS. Suburban NIMBYs are selfish. They fight against affordable housing, because they want to keep the poor -- and their burdens -- our of their communities. But suburban NIMBYs welcome in businesses, because they pay taxes, allowing more public services at a lower household tax rate. Also, suburban NIMBYs don't fight against new roads, schools, parks, etc -- or at least those who do have less power.
Meanwhile, NYC lets non-profit health and social service providers roll over everything -- even as NIMBYs fight to keep out business and public works.
1. The bumbling, nutty-professor inability to get even the simplest infrastructure improvements accomplished (think of those
two-year escalator repair jobs, not to mention the Second Avenue line).
Blame Robert Caro. He'll be the lead speaker at Hevesi's infrastructure forum at the end of this month.
I'll bite. Why should I blame a writer for this? Or is there someone else named Robert Caro that I don't know?
Caro convinced everyone that the expedited procedures used by Robert Moses screwed the little guy and local concerns. And the unreasonable stupidity went 180 degrees the other way. I'm hoping that by being the lead speaker at a pro-infrastructure meeting ("Rebuild New York", Tuesday March 28th at CUNY Graduate Center 8 am to 4 p.m.) that he will fess up and say things have gone too far.
BTW -- you see why I'd like to see Hevesi elected Mayor?
[Caro convinced everyone that the expedited procedures used by Robert Moses screwed the little guy and local concerns. And the unreasonable stupidity went 180 degrees the other way. I'm hoping that by being the lead speaker at a pro-infrastructure meeting ("Rebuild New York", Tuesday March 28th at CUNY Graduate Center 8 am to 4 p.m.) that he will fess up and say things have gone too far.]
I wouldn't count on any repentance from Caro. It is sad but true that a certain, influential strata of New Yorkers - the words "Upper West Side" are on the tip of my tongue, metaphorically speaking - are perfectly happy with the City's near-complete lack of infrastructure improvements. If you take taxis or limousines everywhere, you aren't concerned that subway expansion has effectively stopped - in fact, you're probably glad, as there's less construction to delay you. If you send your children to one of those disgustingly expensive private schools, you aren't concerned that many public schools still have coal-fired furnaces. The Manhattan Bridge debacle? To these people, Brooklyn might as well be in northeastern Turkmenistan (except for the rare, risky trip to those _adventurous_ friends who bought that brownstone in the wilderness known as Brooklyn Heights), so it's hardly anything to lose sleep over. NYC's lack of decent stores? They consider supermarkets utterly _ghastly_ places, so, so *suburban* (shudder), and completely unnecessary what with that nearby gourmet shop.
In short, Caro has no need to repent because the Upper West Siders who adore his every word are perfectly happy with NYC's status quo.
Hey now Pete, I was born on the upper west side, don't go dissin my ol' neighborhoo!!!!
Sounds like a bunch of snobby Democrats to me Pete, and that is why I hold them in such contempt. They bleed liberal red but consider the vast majority of us as the great unwashed. To hell with them.
My responses to some of your counter-arguments:
[[7. Incessant racial tension.]
[Worse elsewhere -- but less publicized.]
I can't possibly imagine where things could be worse. Only in NYC could someone like Al Sharpton become the _de facto_ leader of the city.
An interesting factoid: in California, about 15% of the babies being born these days are of interracial backgrounds (mainly white/Asian and white/Hispanic). That's about as sure a sign of racial harmony as you can get. I don't know what NYC's comparable percentage is, but my best guess is that it's far, far lower.
[[8. The Upper West Side.]
[Now the Yupper West Side. The 1960s was a long time ago.]
You still won't be seeing many U.W.S. votes for Bush or McCain come November. I don't know what things were like in the 1960's, but the U.W.S. remains a hotbed of extreme, knee-jerk liberalism.
[[9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly. ]
[Elsewhere, there is only one newspaper in town. Then again, you might not consider the News and Post newspapers.]
Other metropolitan areas might have only one newspaper, but they have a wide variety of other information sources: radio, local television news, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, the Internet, and so on. But in NYC, the _Times_ has a stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the people that matter. You'd have to go back to the days of Pravda in the old Soviet Union to find a newspaper with anything close to that much influence.
Neither the _Daily News_ nor the _Post_ is a serious newspaper (although the _Daily News_ does make an attempt). They're basically sports and entertainment journals, with a little news thrown in for godo measure.
My responses to your responses to some of mu counter-arguments:
[[7. Incessant racial tension.]
[Worse elsewhere -- but less publicized.]
(I can't possibly imagine where things could be worse. Only in NYC could someone like Al Sharpton become the
_de facto_ leader of the city).
Sharpton makes a lot of noise. I lived in Tulsa for a few years, where back in the 1920s the whites rioted, burned down the black part of town, and killed a few hundred blacks, before the national guard arrived. Never heard of it until recently. And I worked as an intern at the local newspaper.
[[8. The Upper West Side.]
[Now the Yupper West Side. The 1960s was a long time ago.]
(You still won't be seeing many U.W.S. votes for Bush or McCain come November. I don't know what things were like in the 1960's, but the U.W.S. remains a hotbed of extreme, knee-jerk liberalism).
Its nuevo liberalism -- I should be able to do as I please, but if someone else has a problem, I don't want to have to pay for it. Believe me -- I've had to attend public meetings and deal with these people. I'd rather deal with Che Guevarra.
[[9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly. ]
[Elsewhere, there is only one newspaper in town. Then again, you might not consider the News and Post
newspapers.] In NYC, the_Times_ has a stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the people that matter.
At work when I'm told who to worry about, as far as anything we do getting in the paper and getting us in trouble with the Mayor, I'm told to worry more about the Daily News. The Times might influence national polticians. The News worries local politicians. At the state level, they are so insulated from democracy they don't care about anyone.
racial harmony in California--surely you jest. This is the state that passed an anti immigrant state prop. then eliminated affirmative action from government functions by referendum. not to mention ongoing stuff like the constant bickering about who gets into the 'academic' public high schools and the prison guard organized riots in state prisons--andf we have the highest per capita prison population.
Sorry, elimination of Affirmative Action is a wonderful thing. Minorities deserve to be treated like anyone else. Ending discrimination by reversing it is not the answer.
Thank you!
-Hank
I also hate New York (I have no choice, it's a state law).
1) It stole our statue
2) It dumped medical waste on our beaches.
3) It makes driving to New Englande difficult.
4) It attracts people's attention away from New Jersey.
5) It stole Staten Island
6) It turned the top 1/2 of the state into a wealthy suburb that now oppreses the bottom 1/2 of the state.
7) They hate us and prepetuate anti-New Jersey jokes in the news media.
8) It was home to the New York Central RR.
9) It puts a facist distatorship with in a few thousand feet of our freedon loving oil refineries. (All dictators need oil. NYC might invade NJ to guarentee its supply.)
10) It contaminates the pristine Medowlands with dead bodies, old railroad stations and sports complexes.
I was wondering when NJ was going to put the move on that statue.
>>>5) It stole Staten Island <<<
Actually, NY State won Staten Island in a 18th Century boat race.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, Staten Island has been trying to secede from NYC since 1898, AND the rest of NYC has wanted to evict Staten Island for almost as long.
Incorrect. In the nonbinding referendum in 1896, Staten Island voted more overwhelmingly than any other future borough to join New York City. Brooklyn had the smallest margin.
"1) It stole our statue"
Sorry, you acephalites gave up Bedloe's Island before anyone even dreamed of the Statue of Liberty.
"2) It dumped medical waste on our beaches."
Sorry, you dumped that yourself.
"3) It makes driving to New Englande difficult."
It's so people from the reject state (aka New Jersey), will be stuck and won't be able to pollute the rest of the country with their sorry asses.
"4) It attracts people's attention away from New Jersey."
Good, we don't need a lot of people retching and vomiting.
"5) It stole Staten Island"
Of course, only a dumb loser (official Webster's definition for New Jerseyan) could have regrets about losing that dump.
"6) It turned the top 1/2 of the state into a wealthy suburb that now oppreses the bottom 1/2 of the state."
Because the top half of the state tries to be like New York so they stop being losers. Now of course they're better than you.
"7) They hate us and prepetuate anti-New Jersey jokes in the news media."
All that New York to perpetuate New Jersey jokes is to invite somebody on a grand tour of the state. The jokes make themselves up.
"8) It was home to the New York Central RR."
You're just jealous that we still have a beautiful terminal and you just have a stinking basement.
"9) It puts a facist distatorship with in a few thousand feet of our freedon loving oil refineries. (All dictators need oil. NYC might invade NJ to guarentee its supply.)"
This will definitely happen! As soon as NY elects a mayor right out of Bellevue. Or New Jersey, it's the same thing either way.
"10) It contaminates the pristine Medowlands with dead bodies, old railroad stations and sports complexes."
Sorry, you destroyed your own ugly swamp and made it uglier by luring our teams into the giant garbage can, I mean New Jersey. And what can I say? You can't blame these people for sending their garbage over to someplace that's always been a jealous, useless, and gold digging DUMP.
The best way to get rid of our nuclear weapons is to use them in the drive through state and get nice, free, wide highways paved there, which is the only reason anybody would want to go to that hell. Oh wait, that's what New Jersey already is!
BTW, When you address your mail, is your exit number part of the zip code, or do you have to write it where every other part of the world has a city?
I love NYC, but one thing I don't like about it is:
Rudolph.
Well, OK, I lived in NYC for 30+ years......
Actually, I didn't HATE any of it, though I certainly thought many things could have been improved. I'm not a social or political scientist, so I'm not going to comment on politics or social services. I'll stick to transit and mobility issues.
BUT, one thing I think NYC could really use is a real park-n'-ride program. Some intercept system, like the MBTA has at Quincy Adams or like PATCO has at Woodcrest, with direct highway ramps into parking at a rail station, is really lacking in NYC.
JFK Lot 8 is about the closest example. And Vince Lombardi in NJ is good also. But it's tough to top a facility like PATCO Woodcrest or MBTA Quincy Adams for accessibility and convenience. Too many park-n'-ride lots in NYC are jammed into neighborhoods where space could be had, poorly marked by signage, or accessible only via local streets.
Let's say they extended the New Lots line through the yard to the Belt Pkwy and a new parking facility at Spring Creek. Or that they improved the atmosphere of the Lot 8 facility (canpoies and maybe a moving sidewalk or small people-mover). Or decked Jamaica Yard as a parking lot (OK, I know its a wetland....just musing here).
Direct highway access at a terminal or near-terminal with a quality service into Manhattan would be a hit, I feel. Let's face it, you'll never get some folks out of cars, no matter how good rail or bus service is. Why not grab them at the periphery and make it worth their while to take transit? It works in plenty of other places..... NYC never really bridged the mobility gap between the commuter rail (long headways and one downtown station) and traditional subway/el (slow and only in the densest areas) the way WMATA, PATCO, BART, or the MBTA Red Line did.
[BUT, one thing I think NYC could really use is a real park-n'-ride program. Some intercept system, like the MBTA has at Quincy Adams or like PATCO has at Woodcrest, with direct highway ramps into parking at a rail station, is really lacking in NYC ....
Direct highway access at a terminal or near-terminal with a quality service into Manhattan would be a hit, I feel. Let's face it, you'll never get some folks out of cars, no matter how good rail or bus service is. Why not grab them at the periphery and make it worth their while to take transit? It works in plenty of other places..... NYC never really bridged the mobility gap between the commuter rail (long headways and one downtown station) and traditional subway/el (slow and only in the densest areas) the way WMATA, PATCO, BART, or the MBTA Red Line did.]
NYC's sheer geographical size makes expanded park 'n' ride a tough sell. Let's say the city extended the 3 line (as you suggested in a snipped portion) and built a major park 'n' ride lot at Spring Creek. People using the lot would still face a long haul into Manhattan, not to mention the fact that the Brooklyn IRT is jammed even now. An upgraded facility using the A train near Kennedy Airport would involve an even longer subway trek. I just don't see many people from Nassau County (or Westchester, if you have park 'n' ride lots in the Bronx) driving into Queens in rush hour traffic and then spending 45 minutes on the subway. They'd either take the LIRR (or Metro North) from the suburbs, or drive all the way.
I agree with Peter. No one wants to drive for 45 minutes and then face an hour subway ride, which many of us 718ers have. There is, however, another alternative -- Park-n-ride just over the river from Manhattan. You'd avoid the jam at the bridge or tunnel, on the Manhattan street, and the cost of parking in Manhattan.
Prime sites would be:
1) the J/Z off the BQE for Long Island to Downtown commuters.
2) Yankee Stadium for Westchester commuters -- if a 2nd Avenue subway ever reduced crowding on the Lex.
3) Long Island City, to get some people in that 63rd St tunnel.
Finally, if Manny B were ever fixed, you could have special park N ride N trains leaving from parking garages along the Sea Beach off the BQE. Skip 59th and 36th, and use the by pass tracks at DeKalb, and Staten Islanders are in Midtown before they know it.
According to the hagstrom map, there is a park and ride at Queensboro Plaza.
Park and Ride would be a great alternative to riding busses. They should build gigantic garages near Sheepshead Bay on the D/Q so I can avoid that ridiculous B100.
Create a new service for that - EXTEND THE #4.- use the center track inbound in the AM, outbound in the PM (like the Flushing), have it stop at only Flatlands, Stanley and New Lots. Then run it express all the way to Utica and so on to Manhattan.
Wayne
Well, OK, I lived in NYC for 30+ years......
Actually, I didn't HATE any of it, though I certainly thought many things could have been improved. I'm not a social or political scientist, so I'm not going to comment on politics or social services. I'll stick to transit and mobility issues.
BUT, one thing I think NYC could really use is a real park-n'-ride program. Some intercept system, like the MBTA has at Quincy Adams or like PATCO has at Woodcrest, with direct highway ramps into parking at a rail station, is really lacking in NYC.
JFK Lot 8 is about the closest example. And Vince Lombardi in NJ is good also. But it's tough to top a facility like PATCO Woodcrest or MBTA Quincy Adams for accessibility and convenience. Too many park-n'-ride lots in NYC are jammed into neighborhoods where space could be had, poorly marked by signage, or accessible only via local streets.
Let's say they extended the New Lots line through the yard to the Belt Pkwy and a new parking facility at Spring Creek. Or that they improved the atmosphere of the Lot 8 facility (canpoies and maybe a moving sidewalk or small people-mover). Or decked Jamaica Yard as a parking lot (OK, I know its a wetland....just musing here).
Direct highway access at a terminal or near-terminal with a quality service into Manhattan would be a hit, I feel. Let's face it, you'll never get some folks out of cars, no matter how good rail or bus service is. Why not grab them at the periphery and make it worth their while to take transit? It works in plenty of other places..... NYC never really bridged the mobility gap between the commuter rail (long headways and one downtown station) and traditional subway/el (slow and only in the densest areas) the way WMATA, PATCO, BART, or the MBTA Red Line did.
OK Wayne, you like Hillary. What does that make you? A hint. A see a lot of carpet coming out of your mouth. Maybe when hilarious Hillary is defeated (if New Yorkers are smart) you can accompany her to Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Sri Lanka, or anywhere else her sorry ass wishes to go. GO RUDY!!!!!!
Rudy will get very few votes in NYC.
If he wins, thank god, we will have someone else for mayor.
Don't care who it is, just someone else.
If he doesn't win, we will have him for a year longer. May he win.
Of course, Rudy will lose only Kings, Queens, New York and Bronx counties, continuing those counties' tradition as being the laughingstock of the state.
I hope you do get another mayor, maybe then you can appreciate the fact that Rudy was one of the first mayors in a long time who didn't have a Encephalectomy before being elected. Mark Green never got one, there's nothing to operate on. Is your name Mark Green?
You don't like him as mayor so you're going to subject the rest of the country to this evil. No matter what the outcome, he's still going to be in your government. What logic are you using? "If I can't be happy, then no one should." Speaking for the rest of the country I would like to say that we don't want your mayor in our US Senate. You keep him, he's yours! You're the ones who voted him into office, live with it! :scoff: New Yorkers, can't live with 'em, can't sink 'em into the Atlantic...yet.
He'd cause less probems as a senator than as a mayor since he would be just one vote out of 100. However since I can't stand him I wouldn't vote for him for dog-catcher. H. Clinton for Senator!
>>>2. Confiscatory taxes. <<<
None of the Four Stooges are offering any substantial relief, either. Gore, McCain and Bradley offer minimal relief, while Bush's cuts are mostly for the wealthy.
>>>>6. The idea that people living outside of Manhattan are three-toothed hillbillies who marry their
12-year-old cousins. <<<<
Open any NYC guidebook, (they've been proliferating lately) and you'll see 300+ pages on Manhattan, a dozen on Brooklyn Heights, and nada on any other borough. If I ever do a Forgotten book, Manhattan is just another borough, treated the same as the other four. Just as it is on the website.
>>>7. Incessant racial tension. <<<
The Combover has been spectacular on crime eradication. But this has led to a superaggressive NYPD, and you have the Louima fiasco, by a psychotic, enraged patrolman, and the Diallo disaster.
Sharpie, DA Johnson, Cal Butts, et al would like us to return to the look-the-other-way brand of policing that was the principle under Do Nothing Dinkins. There has to be a middle ground that can keep the crime down yet still make the minority community feel that they are not under siege.
>>>12. NIMBYs (what's one more, at this point?) <<<
We can start a string on all the transit lines and subways we'd have if there WERE no Nimbys.
Reactivated Rockaway, Bay Ridge and Montauk branches...a one seat ride from midtown to LaGuardia...subway service to Northeast and Southeast Queens...the wish list goes on.
[We can start a string on all the transit lines and subways we'd have if there WERE no Nimbys.
Reactivated Rockaway, Bay Ridge and Montauk branches...a one seat ride from midtown to LaGuardia...subway service to Northeast and Southeast Queens...the wish list goes on.]
About the only thing we *can't* blame them for is the Second Avenue debacle. That line would be running today if it weren't for the non-NIMBY-related Beame Shuffle of the 1970's. On the other hand, if there were a serious proposal to build the line today (when pigs fly), you can rest assured that the NIMBY's would be out in droves.
"(when pigs fly)"
The United Swines owns several planes for own use.
[The Combover has been spectacular on crime eradication. But this has led to a superaggressive NYPD, and you have the Louima fiasco, by a psychotic, enraged patrolman, and the Diallo disaster.
Sharpie, DA Johnson, Cal Butts, et al would like us to return to the look-the-other-way brand of policing that was the principle under Do Nothing Dinkins. There has to be a middle ground that can keep the crime down yet still make the minority community feel that they are not under siege.]
Superaggressive NYPD? Under siege? I can't imagine how. Statistics show that police shootings are way down today - quite a bit lower than in the Dinky era. While the volume of civilian complaints has increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded.
[While the volume of civilian complaints has increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded.]
That doesn't necessarily mean that the complaints weren't valid, just that the review procedure decided they were unfounded.
Doug aka BMTman
At the risk of being off topic I will respond.
I was going to say that exact same thing. You took the words out of my mouth.
There is no seige. There are no SS police and fascist dictators. No one is being hauled off to being executed like 1940's Germany. These protestors who make all of these claims and comparisons should fall on their knees and thank God that they may never have to know what fascism and communism and nazi genocide really is.
The news events that have been bombarding the tv are all one big smoke screen. I don't even believe it's Sharpton and the crew who are really the source of promoting this sentiment. You need to look elsewhere. Obviously, all of these marches and lawsuits and bus trips to Washington cost money. Last I heard the Sharpton crew are not pulling in the type of income to rival that of Bill Gates and Silicon valley. I would still like to know, however, how he is able to live in Teaneck, NJ (away from his followers) with an apartment in Brooklyn and can wear expensive suits.
Money doesn't grow on trees. No. There is someone (singular or plural) who is obviously financing all of these spectacles and the three ring circus. That's the real fuel that is fanning the flames. Like fire if you cut off the oxygen (in this case money) the fire will eventually go out because nothing is feeding it.
Al Sharpton. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ha! What a sorry joke. A racist to the core. He promotes division among the races and the press gives him a free ride. I wish African-Americans would reject this bum once and for all. Caucasians totally trashed the pathetic David Duke but can't do that to Sharpmouth. Our black bretheran will have to do it. And I hope soon. And if he's such a big New Yorker, why is that cretan living in New Jersey? Sharpton, Hillary, Mario, Green. Boy, you New Yorkers have a lot of trash to empty.
Sharpton a racist??
RUDY and the cops.
New Yorker have the right to revolt against the KKK Oh, I mean NYPD.
While the volume of civilian complaints has increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded.
The amount of damages paid by the City in civil actions for NYPD negligence is also way up. This may be a better index than the Civilian Complaint Bureau, which is deliberately underfunded.
Crains New York, at a forum of minority business people after the whole racial profiling thing broke, asked how many had been pulled over and then released without explanation, or stopped and frisked without, again, any explanation.
Almost all of them had.
I've never been stopped and frisked, despite traveling through all kinds of NYC neighborhoods on assingment, the last couple of years in a black leather jacket and a black cap (it admitedly says Census 2000). Walked down people's side yards, looked at their side and back doors for doorbells, etc. etc. A few friendly chats with the neighbors. Not a word from the Cops.
[Crains New York, at a forum of minority business people after the whole racial profiling thing broke, asked how many had been pulled over and then released without explanation, or stopped and frisked without, again, any explanation.
Almost all of them had.]
I know I'm venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've got to say that racial profiling, while certainly not a pleasant thing, is at least somewhat understandable. For whatever reason or reasons, it's the unavoidable truth that minorities are responsible for a disproportionate share of crime in NYC (and elsewhere). It is far more likely that a minority businessman, like the ones polled by Crains, will resemble a wanted criminal than a white businessman will resemble a wanted criminal. Remember that the whole Diallo affair happened because the SCU was looking for a black serial rapist. As a result, a minority businessman is more likely to be questioned by the police. You will probably see the same thing with other demographic groups - males are more likely to be stopped than are females, teenagers are more likely to be stopped than middle-aged persons.
Obviously, this is small consolation to minority group members who are stopped by the police despite being totally law-abiding. I'd probably be highly offended if I were in their shoes. And nothing justifies harrassment of minorities just because the police don't like them, in other words when there's not a case of a person resembling a specific wanted criminal.
You must be white.
White commit almost all the hate crimes in the US
NYPD white cops shoots mostly minorities.
You being a white man, are immune to racial profiling. After all
what white cop would suspect one of their own of being a suspect?
Minorities make up the majority of the population and if you don't like that you should move back to your white suburbs.
[You must be white.]
Yes, I am. And I'm sick and tired of being treated as the enemy, responsible for all the woes facing minorities today.
[White commit almost all the hate crimes in the US]
Like the people who murdered Yankel Rosenbaum? Like that man in Pittsburgh this week who deliberately targeted whites, killing three of them?
[NYPD white cops shoots mostly minorities.]
Yes, most people shot by police are minorities. But as the vast majority of criminals in NYC are minorities, it's about what you'd expect. And by the way, it's been shown that minority police are just as likely to shoot as are white police (keeping in mind that police shootings are very rare and getting rarer).
[You being a white man, are immune to racial profiling. After all
what white cop would suspect one of their own of being a suspect?]
Actually, if the police are looking for a white suspect, which does happen (especially outside the larger cities), white people indeed might find themselves "profiled."
[Minorities make up the majority of the population and if you don't like that you should move back to your white suburbs.]
Minorities may be a majority of the population in NYC, but they aren't in the country as a whole. Some projections say the United States may be "majority-minority" by 2050. That could be true, but I suspect that increased racial mixing (as I noted earlier, 15% of the children being born in California are interracial) will render the whole concept of race pretty fuzzy by then. In any event, it's not too likely that I'll be around to see it.
Oh, one more thing, I do live in a suburb, one that's predominantly but by no means entirely white. I suppose you're going to say that makes me evil, right?
>>>>Superaggressive NYPD? Under siege? I can't imagine how. Statistics show that police shootings are way
down today - quite a bit lower than in the Dinky era. While the volume of civilian complaints has
increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded. <<<
Perception, they say, is reality. My ex company, Publishers Clearing House, is thought by many to be plotting to rid pensioners of their checks by strongly implying that orderers have a better shot at the big money. That was never a company policy, but they did make it easier for orderers to enter. That has come back to bite them.
Concurrently, the NYPD is now thought of in many neighborhoods in the big city as an occupying army. While actual shootings of civilians by the NYPD has declined, the overall atmosphere has been poisoned by aggressive policing. The NYPD is perceived to be the bad guys; so to many they have become the bad guys.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Concurrently, the NYPD is now thought of in many neighborhoods in the big city as an occupying army. While actual shootings of civilians by the NYPD has declined, the overall atmosphere has been poisoned by aggressive policing. The NYPD is perceived to be the bad guys; so to many they have become the bad guys.]
Yet it's probably the neighborhoods most likely to consider the NYPD an occupying army that have benefitted the most from the reduction in crime rates. I doubt if many people on the Upper East Side are worried about aggressive policing. But even in the depths of the crime wave in the Dinky years, the Upper East Side was pretty safe. On the other hand, the people in Brownville probably hate the NYPD, by and large. But this so-called aggressive policing surely has made Brownsville a lot safer than it had been ten years ago.
Funny how these sort of issues tend to take over threads. No wonder education and transportation lose out in the public debate. Poor Hevesi. He'll go on holding rebuild New York seminars, designing new garbage trucks, taking about education, economic development, and the need to get down the debt, and he'll be ignored.
All we'll hear about is race and police, abortion, the death penalty, etc. We'll be stuck with Mark Green or Peter Vallone.
It would help if there were more Black and Hispanic police officers, but unfortunately the share of Blacks and Hispanics who get through school and come up with the qualifications to be police officers is too low. And they have lots of options, and a cultural bias against policing. The city could use more black business owners and teachers too, but the qualified applicants are not out there. It's the product of long run educational failure and family decline.
The police force also has to compete with the Transit Authority for qualified minority applicants. I see a hell of a lot more Black T/Os than Cops. Which job would you choose?
Please explain how Bush's tax cuts are "for the wealthy".
The CCRB is underfunded so that cops can remain trigger happy legal
criminals. Most cops in the city come from upper middle class white suburbs where almost all the residents are white.
(Most cops in the city come from upper middle class white suburbs)
Actually, most come from working class white suburbs, both inside and outside the city. The upper middle class can make a living in less dangerous and stressful ways.
[(Most cops in the city come from upper middle class white suburbs)
Actually, most come from working class white suburbs, both inside and outside the city. The upper middle class can make a living in less dangerous and stressful ways.]
And they're hardly all white anymore. Those days are long past. The NYPD has done a very good job of integration, though not of course as good as Transit has.
Do you live in NYC?
The cops are almost, that I see are white.
Diallo: White
Luima: White
How do you explain that?
[Do you live in NYC?
The cops are almost, that I see are white.
Diallo: White
Luima: White
How do you explain that?]
Well, duh, I certainly see a lot of minority cops. I don't know the official statistics, but I'd guess that the NYPD is maybe one-quarter minority, possibly more.
If the cops were black, then everybody's favorite activist encephalectomy patient wouldn't cry racism and we'd hear nothing of it after the initial one or two articles on page 15.
>>>>Please explain how Bush's tax cuts are "for the wealthy". <<
I'm ill prepared to get into economic breakdowns in a transit forum, but I have heard that his cuts will disproportionately benefit the rich.
If one of these guys will propose a tax cut that will reduce my tax bill, and the tax bills of everyone making $50,000 per annum or less, to no more than 15-20% of my weekly paycheck, federal and state combined, then I'll start listening to them as far as taxes are concerned. Until then I'll keep reading my check, weeping every week and discounting every word they say.
Locally, I'm told that some local legislators are already starting to squawk because Rudy proposes to remove the income surtax imposed by Dave in the early 1990s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[If one of these guys will propose a tax cut that will reduce my tax bill, and the tax bills of everyone making $50,000 per annum or less, to no more than 15-20% of my weekly paycheck, federal and state combined, then I'll start listening to them as far as taxes are concerned. Until then I'll keep reading my check, weeping every week and discounting every word they say.]
The *theory* is that tax cuts for rich people benefit everyone, as they'll invest their extra money in productive business enterprises. If you believe that, I've got a bridge over the East River to sell to you :-) In actual fact, rich people are more likely to spend extra money on luxuries and toys that have relatively little "spill over" economic benefit.
Agreed that this really isn't the place for such discussion, but since it was thrown out there I figure I'll put my 2 cents in.
First comment is be very wary when someone says that tax cuts "only benefit the rich" or "only benefit the top 25% of all wage earners". In order to get into the top 25% of all wage earners, you only need to have $48,000 in income. While you or others may not be at that income level now, you probably aspire to it and it is reasonably likely that you will achieve it at some point. The "rich" to a Democratic Politician is a very different thing than it is to most of us.
Also, it's almost impossible to devise a tax cut which "favors the poor". After all, the poorest of the poor likely pay almost no income tax already.
If you split the country into "rich" and "poor" -- where the top 50% of wage earners are called "rich" and the bottom 50% are "poor" -- and then you completely eliminated the income tax on the "poor" group, you would only eliminate 4.3% of the country's income tax revenue.
The moral of the story is -- ask a politician exactly who they're talking about when they say they're against tax cuts for the rich. Even more importantly, ask for specifics when they want to raise taxes on the "rich" -- they're probably talking about you.
Chuck
Well, since we have slithered into my professional territory you might as well respond.
Remember that big Republican Congress tax cut? Rudy wanted to show he was a good Republican come out in favor, and the assignment to find out how good it was slithered down through the maze of bureacracy into the basement --- me. Thank God for the interent. A conservative economic think tank hand done a detailed state by state analysis.
Now I had assumed that (since NY has an above average per capita income and tax cuts help the rich) that any tax cut would favor New York. But somehow, someway those Republicans can up with a massive tax cut plan in which the average New Yorkers would see a smaller decline in their paycheck than the residents of any state. I was stunned. It just shows that they have some smart staffers working for Congress who can really come up with something to screw NY. Rudy still endorsed the plan, but with fewer specifics and less enthusiasm.
As for the big Reagan tax cuts and trickle down, there is another pet peeve. Recall that in 1980 the tax code subsidized borrowing (consumer and student loan debt interest deductable) and taxes the hell out of savings, at up to a 70 percent marginal rate. This was on distribution of income grounds -- low to middle income people borrow, high income people save. Conservative economists blamed this for the low savings rate. Cut taxes on savings and investment, and people will save an invest.
So what happened? So many savings tax breaks were put in (IRA, 401K, college savings accounts) that despite being a cheapskate and saving a lot, I pay almost no tax on my earnings. The capital gains tax was cut. Aside from home loans, all consumer interest is no longer deductible.
The result: the national savings rate FELL TO ZERO. But no one ever goes back to those conservative economists and asks what happened. They are still talking about cutting taxes on investment returns to promote savings and investment, like a broken record.
Aside from home loans, all consumer interest is no longer deductible.
How well do I remember when that change came about! At the time, we were up to our eyeballs in consumer debt - of course, we had not only our mortgage but we had a car payment and lots of credit card bills. For us it was the impetus to clean up our financial act - since I couldn't deduct the interest any more, I didn't want to pay it. We sold what stocks and mutual funds we owned and paid off as much as we could, other than the mortgage, and within another 12 months or so we had paid off the car and the other bills as well. I don't know if that's good for the global economy, but the discipline that it fostered in us definately helped us get through the time when I was unemployed without totally destroying our future, and will enable our children to finish college without being saddled with debt for ten years afterwards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when I see the interest rates on credit cards, I practically want to cringe. Credit card debt is a huge burden even if it were deductible. If losing the deduction spurred more people to reduce their balances, it was a smart move.
The Republican Plan worked for me too. Rather than paying it off gradually, we cashed in our savings and paid off our student loans immediately. And, of course, we have both been putting money in 401Ks for years.
Still, nationwide it didn't work. People have gone deeper into credit card debt, and the savings rate has gone down. No one has explained this.
Perhaps it's because salaries haven't gone up at the rate that they did in the late '70s/early '80s - with the inflationary pressures gone, salaries are rising at a significantly lower rate than they were back then. When your salary is rising quickly, your available money to pay back the loan is probably rising more quickly than prices are. Now, people who are conditioned to that kind of spending are finding it harder to pay the debts off and equally hard to stop spending.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[People have gone deeper into credit card debt, and the savings rate
has gone down. No one has explained this.]
I get at least four or five unsolicited credit card offers a month, and I highly doubt I'm unusual in that respect. It's not hard to see how all this temptation leads to more c.c. spending. And that, of course, is exactly what the issuers want.
If losing the deduction spurred more people to reduce their balances, it was a smart move
Unfortunately the current rule is only unfair to people who don't own homes. Those who do can simply take out home equity lines of credit and still get a tax deduction. I know people who were maxed out on their credit cards and then took home equity loans to pay off the balances, thereby converting non-deductible interest to deductible interest.
[Unfortunately the current rule is only unfair to people who don't own homes. Those who do can simply take out home equity lines of credit and still get a tax deduction. I know people who were maxed out on their credit cards and then took home equity loans to pay off the balances, thereby converting non-deductible interest to deductible interest.]
Using home equity loans to pay off credit card debt is one of those things that sounds terrific in theory but usually is a mistake in practice. People who do it always say that they'll be disciplined and won't run up new balances on their paid-off credit cards. You can figure out exactly what usually happens.
The fact that Mark Green, Mario Cuomo and now hilarious Hillary live in New Yawk City is enough. With that pathetic trio do you need to have any more. But let's end the week on a happy note. Let's start the five things I love about New York.
No. 1----the Sea Beach train--Well, what the hell did you expect?
No. 2----Little Italy. Great place, great food, but getting smaller all the time.
No. 3----The Mets. This year they win it or Phillips and Valentine bid bon voyage to New York.
No. 4----Manhattan Skyline. Let's face it, Manhattan is an exciting place and there is a lot to see.
No. 5.---Mayor Giuliani. Now that will be the juices flowing but I saw him on TV on Larry King and he was great. He would make a great US Senator.
OK, I'll throw in a sixth. The Brighton Express. OK Bob? Are you satisfied?
I think Giuliani would make a better Governor, or even President.
That is unless the UNITED SWINES are completely overcome by the Boarsheviks (hey, we pigs are divided too) and then we we will do the same thing we do every night Pinky, try to TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
When was the 9th Avenue subway taken away and why?
Why did you post this in response to my message out Giuliani?
There never was a Ninth Avenue Subway.
2. Confiscatory taxes.
4. Government's paternalistic, micromanaged instrusions into our lives.
NMNMNMNMNMNMNMNM
NOW you got me going. First off I am a bundle of nerves cause of the two items above. The bastards in Albany, these do-gooding, moralistig imbeciles - they have decided to regulate behaviour of law-abiding citizens through confiscatory taxation. I am referring to the 55-cent-a-pack increase in the cigarette tax. What has this resulted in for me? I QUIT. Haven't had a smoke in about 45 hours. How do I feel? TERRIBLE. I have had exactly four hours sleep since then. I am shaking, my stomach hurts, I can't think straight, I can't sit still.
What am I doing about it? Well, I've got the Patch. It helps. But it's not a cure. All because of these well-meaning knuckleheads in Albany.
Why did they do this? To impose their wills on us, of course. Will they use the tax money for what they originally intended to - to fund some sort of medical insurance plan? OF COURSE NOT! It'll go right into the friggin' pork barrel. Do I trust them? NO I Don't. If they can get away with this...
If they don't want people to smoke THEY OUGHT TO PASS A STATE LAW OUTLAWING THE SALE AND POSSESSION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS. I would have more respect for them if they did THIS rather than to ram a regressive, confiscatory tax down the throats of people who still choose to smoke. As for me, I'm taking this as fair warning - I think I'll quit now or at least try to...
Wayne
(Quit smoking)
Gee, I had thought that the economic incentive argument is a bunch of bull, and that the new tax was just an easy way to get money by (yet again) targeting and unpopular industry and habit. But if you actually end up quitting, I'll have to change my mind.
I think someone once did a study, and found that smokers hurt state and local government through higher Medicaid expenses, but help the federal government by dying before they collect social sercurity.
Larry - With Marlboros now costing $37.00+ tax a carton, I'd be hard pressed to keep smoking them. It's time - enough is enough.
Wayne
Go to Foxwoods. On Indian reservations there's no tax at all. Also, companies from North Carolina will ship them to you via the internet. The tax on cigarettes in NC is only 5 cents a pack.
Or you can just quit ...
Since when? North Carolina's cigarette tax is up around 30¢ a pack now, has been for several years. It's still lower than almost everyone else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
03/04/2000
W A R N I N G ! !......O F F T O P I C .............................
I don't smoke, but I know someone who orders cartons on the internet to avoid taxes. With the new taxes, the internet will be humming with orders. New York is so tax happy they just love to shoot themselves in the foot.
See the high prices of gas ? Why is it higher in NY State and NY City? Because when price of gas dropped scheming bag eyed Uncle Mario of Albany made it interesting to add new taxes for all sorts of reasons. Now Nassau County will reevalute property taxes to bail out the county which sits well with Moody's. Hence, homeowners will pay more in proerty taxes!
Forget Pigs of Royal Island and his oinker revolt ! Get ready for a tax payer revolt, and this one will be televised !!
Bill Newkirk
While you Humans are divided, the UNITED SWINES will strike! First the BOARSHEVIKS need to get a majority in the House of Repigsentatives and Swinate. Then we won't have to contend with the Demhogcrats and Repiglicans.
Is it true that Marvin HAMmlitsch will compose your victory song?
Please, please, spare us the puns!!
03/04/2000
In a pigs eye !!
Bill Newkirk
[I think someone once did a study, and found that smokers hurt state and local government through higher Medicaid expenses, but help the federal government by dying before they collect social sercurity.]
I recall seeing the same thing.
Wayne, you remember your high school history - there was this little experiment called "Prohibition" back in the 20s, you may recall, and we all know how well that worked! But pricing something out of people's reach - literally, in the case of many people - has tended to work very well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By the way, Wayne, I for one am glad you have decided to quit - it should extend your life expectancy, and I don't like attending my friends' funerals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know. We've been trying for years to get our Chief Dispatcher to quit. At least now he's down to a pack every three days, which is an improvement.
BTC's no smoking (for operators)rule was downright draconian. Off the vehicle to smoke, even if 10 degrees and snowing. And it was enforced.
Personally, I deplore the habit. And, I buried a father (@62 years) and step-father (@72) due to cigarettes. Our late Superintendent Transportation smoked in his teens and twenties before quitting - he got chronic heart disease (from guess what) and died at 71.
I keep on hearing how prohibition didn't work. However I've also read conflicting reports. Alchohol related related crimes were way down and people as a whole were healthier. Not everyone went to speakeasys the same way not everyone is on drugs now. And lets face it, the gangster wars DID NOT end with the repeal of prohibition.
People may have been healthier, but I don't think there is a correlation between that and Prohibition. Major strides in public health were also made during the teens and twenties.
Statistically, per-capita alcohol consumption in urban areas actually INCREASED during Prohibition and remained constant in other parts of the country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the thing to remember is there are social pressures short of throwing people in jail to deter undesireable behavior. If you try to ban something that a significant share of the population will nonetheless do, you end up putting too much pressure on the police.
Virtually no one I know drinks hard alcohol. Virtually all our parents had a full liquor cabinet. People used to drink at lunch, and snooze through the afternoon. I'm told that have of the Transit Authority was drunk on the job in the "good old days." Not to mention half of the phone company -- they used to give the lineman whiskey rations on cold days. The change shows how education and social pressure can work, not in an absolute sense, but in a relative sense.
Education and social pressure can work, that's true, but taxation (detestable as we may find it) also helps a lot!
As for your comment about the telephone linemen, that's an old myth - no truth to it at all. Not that some didn't supply themselves, but Ma Bell didn't supply them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Ma Bell didn't supply them). I heard it from a former lineman.
[If they don't want people to smoke THEY OUGHT TO PASS A STATE LAW OUTLAWING THE SALE AND POSSESSION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS. I would have more respect for them if they did THIS rather than to ram a regressive, confiscatory tax down the throats of people who still choose to smoke.]
You'll never see states outlawing cigarettes because then they'd lose a lucrative source of revenue. And cigarette taxes indeed are a big revenue source for most states.
52½ hours and counting; I feel like a spider on a griddle - when will this ever stop? Right now, I wish they WOULD ban them - maybe I'll just "pretend" they've done it until this agony goes away.
Wayne
>>>If they don't want people to smoke THEY OUGHT TO PASS A STATE LAW OUTLAWING THE SALE AND
POSSESSION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS. I would have more respect for them if they did THIS rather
than to ram a regressive, confiscatory tax down the throats of people who still choose to smoke. As for
me, I'm taking this as fair warning - I think I'll quit now or at least try to...<<<
I've been thinking that for a long time. I'd rather ban tobacco outright than try to change people's behavior with restrictive legislation. The trouble is, they tried banning alcohol a few decades ago and people kept right on drinking.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wayne, the important thing to remember is: NEVER, NEVER, EVER smoke that first cigarette, you the the "just one won't hurt" cigarette!!!!
I quit 3 years and 2 mos. ago when I was 43 and my son Arthur was 4 Mos old. I figured I wanted to see him be an adult. Nobody smoked more than me!!! I told everyone I smoked 3 packs a day but thats just when I stopped counting. I even gave up riding the LIRR when they got rid of the smoking cars!! Although I never was a drinker I used to accompany an old girlfriend to AA years ago. I remembered all their propaganda and applied it to smoking. It worked. Go one day at a time. Keep psyching yourself. Tell yourself that if you smoke you're letting that stupid white stick rule your life. And don't light that first cigarette!! If I just smoke one I will be back to 3 packs in 2 weeks!! Thats how it works.
Good Luck!!!
It's also the first drink that I won't take which won't get me drunk.
Wayne
A friend of Bill's (5 years, 4 may 2000)
The movie stigmata has our old friend subway car#51050 from the money train raceing through the tunnel,with the main stars bouncing around inside but when the train stops at the station guess what....it becomes a redbird i think the number is either 8235 or 8255....it's very hard to catch it in frame by frame as it blurred...any takers ?
As part of the vary the commute plan, I walked across Prospect Park to the Brighton at Prospect Park station. I had planned to do my hairshirt routine and board the Brigton, but I saw a shuttle pull out, and decided to take it instead. Observations:
1) Two train operation. The second shuttle was packed when it pulled in -- all teens. Its like the Coney Island bound F in the AM -- kids on their way to school.
2) Long wait -- as long as 10 minutes between trains.
3) The Brighton was crush loaded as usual. Glad I didn't take it.
4) The shuttle left Prospect Park quite full, but most people changed for the IRT.
5) Stall due to one track -- we had to wait for the train to come by in the other direction. No way to go back to two tracks. They built just about everything in the space where the second track would go, and all the bridges are one-track. As a Manny B alternate, they blew it.
6) The A doesn't exactly roar down the Fulton Line. I could almost pace it walking along the Franklin Ave platform.
7) The wait for the C is interminable -- on wonder most people squeeze onto the IRT. Arrive at Prospect Park: 8:00 a.m. Board a C train: 8:35.
The shuttle left Prospect Park quite full, but most people changed for the IRT.
Glad to hear it! Shows the wisdom of finally fixing the shuttle and providing that important connection.
Larry, glad to have another SubTalker give their views on the New Franklin Shuttle.
Your analysis contradicts one of our fellow SubTalkers who once remarked how the shuttle is useless because it never had heavy crowd conditions. Well, that person obviously never rode it during the rush hours!
And slowly, but surely, IRT subway riders are discovering -- most likely on their own -- the valuable connection to the Shuttle at Franklin Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't be fooled. It was crowded because it runs infrequently and it has short trains.
A waste of $70 million
Thank you for your response, Oh Great Voice of Pessimism.
P.S. It doesn't run as infrequently as you may think.
Sorry, dude but it's the truth. Had they done the rehab right, with 2 tracks running the entire length, and the ability to handle full length trains, then the money spent can be justified. With it's present configuration, the FS is a total waste.
Yeah I must admit, it seemed pretty infrequent while I was sitting on it. A good ride for teens with lots of time, but not for anyone else.
Even half-length trains with two tracks would have been better.
If Brooklyn could have had its choice, it would have been better off with the DeKalb to Rutgers connection, and rebuilding the IRT junction at Franklin Ave.
So, I suppose your idea would have been to continue the street-clogging buses that only added to the traffic problems of Franklin and Bedford Aves.? (not to mention the additional air-pollution they create).
I agree that the Franklin Shuttle should have been kept as a two-track line, but in light of that, it still has the advantage of connecting the Brighton, Fulton Street and IRT lines together without customers having to leave the system. Is that so horrible? And I'm sure there are worse ways of wasting $70 Million (even though I don't consider it a waste).
Obviously, we see things differently.
Doug aka BMTman
Ignore him. He's a real Transit Know-It-All even though he hasn't worked a day in his life for the TA.
I sure know what I can see. You don't have to be a TA employee to see that the $70 million was a total waste of money used to rehab the shuttle in it's present condition. It's useless as an alternative if the Manhattan Bridge ever closes, and the one track portion linits headways to about 10 minutes, even during rush hours.
They did leave provisions for upgrading the line (the space between the actual platform at Park Place and the stationhouse, and the track is still on one side of the ROW, rather than in the middle). So if there were a long term Manhattan Bridge closure, or if the line ever becomes so popular they need to upgrade it, it would just take some relatively minor construction (reconfiguring the walkways and ramps of Park Pl., filling parts of the embankment with ballast for the other track and adding overpasses for it, etc)
03/05/2000
So there's room for a second track at Park Place? Doesn't wheelchair access now become a problem if a second track is added?
Bill Newkirk
I'm not exactly sure how they would do it. If the platform was converted to a true island, they might have left space under it so yould could pass under the new track and come up onto the platform, instead of using the bridge and ramps that would have to be removed. But it does look like they left provision for the other track.
If a second track was added, then it would be impossible for northbound trains to stop at Park Place without major reconstruction. There is no room to put in another side platform for northbound trains, and the southbound (and present day single track) would have to be moved to accomodate a center platform.
One of the main reasons why I stated that the $70 million used to rehab this line in this manner was a complete waste.
It would not have to be moved. There is space between the station house and the platform.
If Park Place were to revert to a 2 track island configuration, the new platform would have to be put in the exact same area the present day track is. This would require the new southbound track to be moved to where the present day single platform is. The station house does not sit on the ROW, but on a seperate adjoining piece of property the city bought for the reconstruction.
There is space between the platform and the stationhouse, designed for an additional track if necessary.
Not for an island platform. Installing that would require the existing track to be moved. And there isn't enough space on the other side to add another side platform.
The station was deliberately designed with room between the station house and the platform, there's a little bridge. Nothing would have to be moved.
For an island platform (the only way this stop could be expanded), it would certainly have to be moved. Note I'm talking about the track, not platform.
No. The current platfrom is in the same place as the old platform and the current track is the northbound track.
03/11/2000
There is one thing missing in this dispute with the Park Place platform. The line would have to be shut down again for months to correct the mistake and make it right.
I don't think the riding public would be very sympathic about this.
Bill Newkirk
The riding public is never sympathetic to anyting nothing is ever good enough.
Then where would you put the new southbound track?
Either way, serious reconstruction would be necessary to convert it to a 2-way staton. Which makes the whole shuttle useless as an alternative in case of a Manny B closure, which is really the sole reason this line should not have been completely abandoned.
We have discussed this ad nauseum. The platform is at the site of the original platform and the track is what was the northbound track. Southbound trains would obviously be on the other side of the platform!
I would think wheelchair-access could still be provided. The ramp would be made into a tight left or right-angled, ramp instead of the current straight-configured access.
Doug aka BMTman
An island platform with an elevator would have been the better way to go. The current configuration makes conversion to a 2 track station almost impossible without major reonstruction.
Perhaps that's what they would do, as I was saying. All they would have to do is move the bridge and ramps (relatively minor construction)and install a shaft. (There could be spaces for it somewhere)
I have yet to ride the new FS and this is the perfect weekend to do it (weather wise). Its funny that you mention the connection to the IRT. Ive only heard a few times that there was an actual transfer to the shuttle from the conductors on the 2,3,4,5 lines...... I guess pepole take the shuttle to the IRT instead of taking the D to Atlantic and have to wait for 2 or 3 trains to pass before they can board one. Now only the transfer between the 3 and L were to be built...........
3TM
03/05/2000
You must check out that transfer to the IRT. It really is nothing as far as footsteps. This connection was there all these years and nobody bothered to knock down a concrete wall.
Also it is possibly easlier to take the shuttle one stop to transfer to the IRT because when transfering at Atlantic, there are crowds galore in the rush hour and don't forget people keaving the LIRR to transfer. Maybe some people can gain a seat at Franklin instead of transfering at Atlantic.
Bill Newkirk
[Also it is possibly easlier to take the shuttle one stop to transfer to the IRT because when transfering at Atlantic, there are crowds galore in the rush hour and don't forget people keaving the LIRR to
transfer. Maybe some people can gain a seat at Franklin instead of transfering at Atlantic.]
I don't know what the situation is like at Franklin, but I can say without reservation, based on occasionally taking the LIRR to Flatbush, that it is absolutely impossible to get a seat on IRT trains at Atlantic during morning rush. The 2, 3 and 5 are completely jammed. The 4 generally isn't quite as crowded at the other ones, but there certainly aren't any seats.
You are not getting a seat on the express at Franklin. Maybe the local, but not the express........
3TM
During the morning rush, the #5 actually runs out of seats before leaving Flatbush Ave. People actually backtrack, taking the 5 southbound, then waiting on the same train to head towards Manhattan.
I have seen the transfer at Franklin. I taken pics of it as well. I went on the platform at Botanic Gardens. This is the closest to getting to the "new" shuttle. As for the seat thing, you are not getting a seat at Franklin. It is mostly SRO, if that alone......
3TM
If it's an A train of R-44s, then, yes, it does move along at an undesireable pace. The R-38s move more swiftly along that stretch.
i just got off the phone with salaam allah--- i did not get to meet up with him today--- but he filmed the j and the l lines, and was at broadway junction in brooklyn looking for an r-38 to head out to rockaway--- he hopes to get some night shots on that line--- yesterday he redid the #5 line and also shot the path train--- he will be leaving new york tomorrow and heading back to los angeles by car---
he sent his regards to all of us and regrets at not being able to meet some of us--- i wished him a safe trip back to the west coast
Great! At least he was able to get to Broadway Junction and video tape there! I expect in a few years that a big chunk of that great structure will be no more and capturing it now for future viewing is the best thing salaam could have accomplished. After all, he didn't get to ride the A Line out to the Rockaways, but that route is not likely to change for all eternity.
Say, Paul (as opposed to heypaul), were you able to find out from salaam if he did his video-taping on the Canarsie Line from a railfan window of a Slant R-40? I know that would have made his day.
See ya at 14th & 8th Ave. tomorrow.
Doug aka BMTman
first doug--- you should know better than to address me as Say Paul--- you're likely to confuse Paul Matus--- address me as Say heypaul or maybe even
Hey saypaul
i don't know whether salaam filmed any shots of the structure--- he was calling me from a payphone at broadway junction and he was complaining that the structure was really shaking--- he said that if he were in la he would be afraid that there was an earthquake--- i am serious about this--- plus he seemed to be getting tired from holding the camera to the window
i didn't ask him if he caught a slant on the l--- i am also pretty sure that he didn't run into the r110 either as i heard reports on my decoder ring that it was running on the grand central shuttle with all 6 cars :-)
yes i hope to see you and the others tomorrow--- if i end up waiting for nothing at 8th ave and 14th, my next post on subtalk will be a flame attack that will guarantee i will be barred from subtalk as well as the rest of the internet....
The R-10/R-62 prototype will come out to be something good! The R-10 had speed and so does the R-62. But the technology is different. These days only the R-62, and R-42 or 44 (I forgot which one) have the speed! I say combine the R-10 and R-62 technology, with also a little new technology and we will get a car that will be fast, comfortable, and leave the other cars in the dust. I am talking about cars that go up to 90 mph on LIRR tracks. I do not know. They will be stainless steel and have the body of an R-62. Speed of the R-10/R-62 easy to use for both conductors and train drivers. I can see the car. We can make it BMT and IRT. The speed will be incredible. Just seeing a BMT car faster then the R-10 and a car faster then the R-62. Also there will be a railfan window!
Altoids has joined the list of return appearnces. They will go on sale at 7am on 3/13/2000 at these statiosn:
J LINE:
Alabama, Van Siclen,Cleveland, Norwood,Crescent, Cyoress Hills,Elderts Lane,Forest Pkwy, Woodhaven, 102,111,121
A LINE:
Lefferts, Aqueduct,Howard Beach, Broad Channel, Beach (B)90,B98,B105,B116,B67,B60, B44, B36, B25, Mott Ave (Far Rock)
CONCOURSE LINE(B,D):
167,170,174,Tremont, Fordham, Kingsbridge, Bedford Park, 205
3 LINE:
All stations from Sutter to New Lots
[Alabama, Van Siclen,Cleveland, Norwood,Crescent, Cyoress Hills]
Have Altoids been around for as long as these stations have?
I wanna know something. How does Amtrak work their Engineers? Do they do the same thing a pilot's Boss would? for example, I drive the Train from Penn Station. This Train is headed for Ocala Florida. Will I go all the way to Florida? Also, Say I left, Sunnyside Yard on Monday coming. When Would I tell my Children I will be back? Also, The Train leaves Penn Station at 8:00. When do I stop and then Return to New York City? Also another thing, If a Train left Lorton Virginia, at 8:00 how is the Engineer able to go up till 3:00 without stopping? is there a Bathroom in Amtrak's Locomotives? Cause their P32DM Genesis Trains look Different than Metro-North's Genesis Trains. Also, where does the Amtrak Trains that go over the Hell Gate Bridge, where do those Trains Go? also what do you think the Life Expectancy of the Genesis P32DM's will be? I am 17 going on 18 in December. Do you think I will be able to operate a Genesis? Also, what is the Fastest that Amtrak is allowed to go? Also, is it True that to be an Engineer, I must gain experience from another Railroad?
Please post a response when u read this and if not, Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
How come almost every thread on this board ends up being about Rudy, Hillary, racism, sports, food, old TV/radio/movies,... in short, anything but trains?
PLEASE, let's keep the extraneous stuff off the board. There are plenty of newsgroups, chat rooms, etc., where it is appropriate for people talk about these things. The political stuff always degenerates into personal attacks on the posters, and the other items lose their entertainment value quickly.
Rant mode off :-)
David
Why is it that it's always the same person who comes in complaining about thread drift and trying to be a pathetic netcop?
It's not.
This reminds me about a movie I once saw. It was about a senate race in New York state and the big issue was food.....
1999 will NOT be the last summer of the redbirds for 2 reasons. Once the R-142 has entered the fleet the R-62's will more likely go into an overhaul, which will take 2 years to complete, so the redbirds will remain for the 2 years to help. The crowds will not be happy if the R-33/36's were gone, and then the R-62's were overhauled. They need the R-62's to be overhauled or the same fate will happen that the R-16 had. 2002 will be the last of the redbirds. Also the MTA on their site said that R-62's will last 20 more years before new cars replace them. Have fun for 2 more years or 1999 will indeed be the last summer of the redbirds.
The R62 will not need the immense overhaul the redbirds got 10+ years ago. Redbirds will last even longer than 2002, because there aren't enough R142's to replace them all.
>>Redbirds will last even longer than 2002,
>> because there aren't enough R142's to replace them all.
Yeeeeeeeeha!!
Well, there WOULD be if they exercised their option orders (#6981-7210 for R142; #7611-7760 for R142A). Have they decided whether or not to go for the option orders?
Wayne
I thought that the 400 from Kawasaki and the 680 from Bombardier were the only ones being delivered. I didn't know the R142 contract had an option, like the R143 contract did (which the TA excercized already)
yeah go here http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/ and go to the R-142 look at the top. It says primary order and then option order.
Actually the option has be exercised because If ya'll remember, I posted pics here of R-142As being delivered across the George Washington Bridge, when I did some research on the cars which happen to be numbered 7209 and 7210, those are part of the option order, NOT THE PRIMARY! SO, I thing the options has been taken!
Trevor
Correct on some counts, wrong on others:
1999 will not be the last year for the Redbirds. In fact, it's possible that no Redbirds will be removed from service this year (outside of heavily damaged cars). The R-142 and R-142A pilot trains will both undergo 30-day reliability tests starting in very late spring or the summer. Since the 30-day clock restarts with any (every?) failure, it's likely that the 30-day test will take much longer than 30 days. Once the pilot cars pass the test, assuming no changes to the equipment are necessary, the contractor will begin to deliver the cars at a rate of 30 or 40 cars a month. Since the plan is to increase the fleet by between 120 and 150 cars, it's probable that no cars will be retired until 120-150 new cars are on the property and in service.
Moreover, it was never intended that the 1,080 R-142 and R-142A cars would replace all 1,400 (give or take) Redbirds. A follow-on order (or orders) totaling 470 cars will take care of the rest of the Redbirds. These cars are planned to be ordered this year, subject to approval of the MTA's capital program (which hasn't happened yet). Given the time to produce cars after they're ordered, don't expect to even begin seeing them for another two years, and don't expect it to take less than a year or so for the cars to be delivered.
As for an overhaul of the R-62 car class, since the late 1980s NYCT has been engaged in a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System), under which the design life of each component in each car class has been determined, and the component is replaced before the design life is reached. The R-62s (along with most other car classes) have received major work on a pretty steady basis over the past few years. The work may not all be visible, but it's there. One visible thing that's coming: new floors.
David
03/04/2000
I believe that any overhauls to the R-62 and 62A fleets will be minor ones. I predict new floors as stated before, cleaning inside and out, repainting the end bonnets, replacement of all sratched windows, and maybe electronic side signs just like on the R-142's. Possibly also overhauled trucks and repairs to the propulsion system to elminate bucking.
Also on the scratched window problem. I believe those articulated buses now in Manhattan have plastic covering the windows that can be replaced if scratched. Has this been at least tested in the subway ??
Bill Newkirk
The R-142 and R-142A fleets will have a sacrificial window layer. It was tested on some (if not all -- I forget) R-62s.
David
and maybe electronic side signs just like on the R-142's.
I wonder if in addition to electronic signs, if the MTA wants to make the R62 even more like the new R142 and R142A, and have next stop indicators inside as well as pre-recorded, computerized announcements. Here in Boston, the T is doing just that to the Type 7's on the Green Line so they can work with the type 8s. But of course, the R142 and R62A wouold never work together.
As for new floors and scratchproof windows....it's about time! -Nick
BLACK FLOORS, maybe? THAT would be nice.
Wayne
Indications are that the flooring will indeed be black. It'll be similar (though probably not identical) to that installed on the few R-68As that got black flooring.
David
Cool. I love those black floors. Really cuts down on the glare on the R68's.
Chris, you can't say that yet as no R-68s have the black flooring.
er, R68A's. Forgot to be exact.
Didn't they give that fire-damaged R68 (#2579) a black floor during the repair?
Wayne
The group switch box burnt along with the grids and wiring but there was no floor damage that I am aware of.
03/04/2000
Possibly a car cleaner saving in there? You know, flattened chewing gum won't look as obvious as with the tan floors. Ditto for dirt on the floor !!
Bill Newkirk
The few R68As = 16 R68As
Yes, and I hope they retrofit the R62's with those unsegmented bench seats you occasionally see on the R62's on the #4 line.
What seats???
The flat bench seats built into cars 1586-1591 (yes, 6 cars).
David
03/04/2000
Yes, the R-62/62A seats except for those corrected ones were not designed for the New York City ass! They could always rip out those bucket seats and install the ones from the scrapped R-40's !!
Bill Newkirk
(my achin' back!)
They are designed for the NYC Ass. Just not the FAT ASS. Honestly, I've never had a problem.
-Hank
I actually wish there were benches on the R-62 as this would let you sit in the MIDDLE between two people. Before you complain that that kills seats, if someone wanted to sit, they'd realise the spread and tell everyone to scooch over.
The seats from the R-40s? Isn't that just trading a width problem for a contour problem? If they're going to take them from a soon-to-be scrapped train, take them from the R-26/28s.
Not only will new flooring be apparent, you will FEEL it as well. The R62s at 207 Main Shop are getting stainless steel pans with some kind of insert in place of any plywood that was removed. I think they finally figured out the plywood and sheet metal doesn't work. It is a shame it took the TA all that money to find out.
I really disagree. The R-46 sub-flooring is a combination of stainless steel & galvanized steel with a chemically treated 1 1/4" sheet of plywood & insulation sandwiched between the two metal sheets. I saw it tested in a furnace and it withstood 1500+ degrees for 35 minutes and the linolium covering remained undamaged. The R-46 sub-flooring is now 9 years old and is as good as the day it was installed - carwash chemicals not withstanding. That's over 6,000 car years of use. The new subflooring is nice but let's not beat the drums too soon. When we have 5,000 car-years of service on the new floors then let's see how they hold up.
I was referring to the horrible flooring of the R32 and R38 cars. I know the rubber tongue and groove seals of the OPTO mods do NOT keep the spray out of the cars. The flooring swells up and is cut and torn in many places. I think they should not have gone with plywood. I'm definately going with flashing cement and tiles when the spring rolls around when it comes to work at TMNY. It sounds like a good design you describe but there is a weak link somewhere that water can get into the plywood plank and ruins the whole job. I even see it occuring on R44s so it can't be that good. 6398's floor lasted a hell of a lot longer than 10 years.
The R-32 floor problem may be more complicated than material and environment. It may alo have been complicated by engineering mistakes. While TA engineering blamed Morrison Knudsen and Morrison knudsen blamed TA Engineering, there is a school of thought that the flooring on the R-32s might have been installed upside-down during overhaul. With the galvanized side up and the stainless side down, the steel-clad ply failed pre-maturely. Of course, this is only one theory.
It is really bad in some cars. For some reason I see the most patches in the #2 doorway. Any timetable when the new flooring is going to be installed. Some of the cars are getting really bad!
Late 2000 for the R-32s but I'm not sure if it will be Jamaica, Coney Island or Pitkin R-32s that are done first. More than likely, Pitkin/Jamaica phase I's will be first but ...........
03/05/2000
Has the TA every thought of using "wonderboard" in place of plywood? Don't let the name fool you, wonderboard doesn't contain any wood. it's primarily used for residential floors in bathroom with ceramic tiles on the surface. Wonderboard can't be cut with a traditional wood saw blade too, but it is also heavier than plywood.
Bill Newkirk
Wonderboard might be too rigid for the floor of a subway car. It is also too heavy at the thicknesses required. Magnesite (formerly used on the R-1 through R-15) was resilliant, easy to repair but was also too heavy.
03/04/2000
Has 207th St shops started on the reflooring of the R-62's ?
I heard that Coney Island shops next big project is reflooring of R-68's IIRC, since the R-68 unitizing program is either over or drawing to a close.
Bill Newkirk
I'll get numbers some time this week as the reflooring has begun. I'm wondering why 207 got an overhaul contract for rehabbing R42s if Coney Island has nothing to do. The floors on the R68 can't be that bad. Unless the floor is moving faster than the hippo.
there is a movie called bye bye braverman with george segal,jack warden, sorrell brooke and alan king about a bunch of friends riding all over brooklyn trying to go to the funeral of a friend--- it had some wonderful aerial shots of the broadway junction elevated structure as i remember
I concur. The four friends drive all over Brooklyn looking for a funeral parlor, and there are several scenes of a Brooklyn that has changed considerably since 1967, when it was filmed. If it comes on TNT or AMC or something, don't miss it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think its a hilarious movie with alot of good footage all over Brooklyn. The four guys are looking for a Jewish funeral home while riding in a VW Beetle and there is a debate among them about whether Jews should drive Volkswagons. If I'm correct George Segall is in it. I can't remember the other names but I can picture all of them.
03/04/2000
There is one scene where they drive over the Williamsburg Bridge and they are pacing an R-16 #15 train. Is this movie out on video ?
Bill Newkirk
I don't think so. I've been looking for it on all the book & video sites such as Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. and nobody has it.
I think I remember a phone-booth scene from that movie that was shoot at or near the intersection of Flatbush Ave. and Cortelyou Road.
VERRRRY funny movie as I recall.
Does anyone know if it is available on video? I'd love to have a copy of it.
(By 1960's standards, that movie appeared to have been an independent, low-budget type production that may have gotten "lost in the suffle" of video releases.)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>(By 1960's standards, that movie appeared to have been an independent, low-budget type production
that may have gotten "lost in the suffle" of video releases.) <<<
LOTS of films set in NYC at that time have a rough hewn, gritty feel to them, such as Taking Of Pelham 123, The Incident, and The French Connection.
These days, films are much more stylized. NYPD uses a guy shaking the camera and pointing it at an angle. Too much pretense...
www.forgotten-ny.com
03/04/2000
PRIORITY ONE ! Let's search and see if this movie is on video. That scene of the R-16 #15 Jamaica Local on the Williamsburg Bridge is burned in my memory.
Bill Newkirk
>>>PRIORITY ONE ! Let's search and see if this movie is on video. That scene of the R-16 #15 Jamaica Local
on the Williamsburg Bridge is burned in my memory.<<<
I looked in amazon, bn.com and reel.com. Nada. Perhaps someone is sellling it in ebay.
Remember, tens of thousands of films have been released since 1965; many are out of print, and many just plain never made it to a video release.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I saw "Bye, Bye, Braverman" when it first came out, and again recently on TV. One of the other starts was Joseph Wiseman, who played Dr. No in the James Bond film of that name.
When it came out in the theaters, it was not around for a very long time. Its content was heavily philosophical, and thus way over the heads of the "great unwashed" or the "Booboisie".
Bob Sklar
As a daily commuter on the Broad Street Subway, I notice this:
A local and an express train are waiting on the northbound platform at Girard Station exchanging passangers. The local closes its dorrs, and then the express does so, and the trains startup at the same time (give a little more time for the local because of OPTO). But as the trains start up at the same time, the local is moving significantly *faster* than the express, and keeps doing so until the local has to slow down for Cecil B. Moore Station. The same holds true for the southbound platform at Olney.
Does anyone know of other locations were this happens? Or better yet, why this happens?
This happens often northbound in the morning on the 4,5,6 at Union Square. A number 6 and 4 or 5 train will be at the station, and they will both leave at the same time. The 6 will end up going faster than the 4 or 5 until about 23rd Street, where it will be passed. Then at 28th Street the 6 catches up and they're neck and neck. The 4 or 5 will continue at a slower than normal pace, and will end up slowing down right after the signal at 33rd Street. This gives the 6 time to discharge passengers at 33rd, and then it will pass the express once more. Usually the 6 and the 4 or 5 will arrive in GCT at the same time, but the 6 opens the doors faster. The reason for this is the assed traffic on the express line. An express might not come for about 5-6 minutes, letteing the ones behind it "back-up". The train who is late remains at the stations longer because it takes more time to discharge passengers. If the 6 were 5 minutes late, it would really not make a difference since there is a 6 about every 7 minutes.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
Yes but that is due to a delay on the express. Try leaving on an A local from 125 Street Southbound with an R68 across the platform. My train would be stopped at 116 before the first car of the D passes my window. Thats slow! R68s RULE!
And let me guess, most passangers don't realize this, making the express much more crowded than the 6 at this point?
The key is PERCEPTION, not REALITY.
An express is always perceived to operate faster because it skips all those stations. The fact that it does so at 1 foot per year is irrelevant - people want the privilege of bypassing stops, and will wait up to 10 minutes or more to "save" one or two minutes. As a result, whatever running time is "saved" BETWEEN stops is lost in dwell time AT each stop.
Add to that the effect of timers, plus people who must hold the doors at all costs (because every train is the very last, or because Straphangers is paying them to sabotage service), and it's a wonder that anything moves at all.
[That's also why some Limited-Stop buses are no faster than their local counterparts.]
Most morning rush hours, you can make much better time on an inbound local from 71-Continental to Queens Plaza. Many times, it I stay on the express, we jerk-n-start from Woodhaven to Roosevelt, and again into the Plaza while numerous locals pass us.
The southbound 2/3 slows down for 42nd just after passing through 50th. At the same location, 1/9 trains are just getting up to speed. If an express meets a local just south of 50th, the local will typically reach 42nd first.
Same for the A-C-E! The "A" will close its doors the same time at 14th Street heading uptown at the same time as a Uptown "C" or "E" and due to the stupid timers (God why) the "C" or "E" train will get to 23rd Stop and still get to 34th Street just ahead of the "A".
Thats some B/S!
Why create a express if your gonna "f" it up by putting in timers and still allowing the local to be faster. This is so well proven. I took a Local C from 59th Street to 168th Street and still met up with the same "A" that left with us at 59th, At 168th!!!!!
The "A" is plagued with timers!
Trevor
Seems to me, then, that NYC Transit is trying to "kill" express service altogether.
When I first discovered the subway in the "dark" days of 1984-85 I was impressed by the great speed on the 8th ave, Lex, and Queens Blvd expresses. But last time I was up there (Aug. '98) I was downright bored with the beloved Lex. Sounds like those darned GTs have made things even worse :..(
You ain't just whistling dixie, bub!
One morning rush hour, I boarded an inbound 'A' at East New York as a 'C' loaded across the platform. We moved along at normal express speed, and then sat in the middle of Lafayette Avenue we waited for the same 'C' to pass us, move in front of us and go through Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Kinda defeats the purpose of an express, no? Unless this was the first 'C' in a while, and the dispatcher was ordered to put it through first-
Locals have seemed to go faster than expresses between stations for years.
Northbound A trains have crawled past 23rd St. since the IND first opened, I would imagine. Even 30 years ago, when the R-10s still dominated that line, they would slow to a crawl when approaching 23rd St. The few R-1/9 express trains I rode on along that stretch didn't get much higher than F# below middle C. Last fall, the first northbound A train of R-38s I was on actually breezed past 23rd at about 25 mph, which was by far and away the fastest uptown run past that station I had ever experienced.
Speaking of the 2 and 3 blowing past 50th St. southbound, yes, they do hit the brakes just as they reach that station, which is a bummer. Last fall, however, I was on a 3 train headed by R-62A 1969 which got up to 47 mph at 50th St., and it kept right on going. It didn't start slowing down until we were more than halfway to Times Square. Even the R-21/22s never did that.
Locals have seemed to have an edge on expresses for years. Perhaps the signals on the local tracks are set up to keep those trains moving along. I remember how on many occasions a southbound A train would leave 34th St. at the same time as an E train. Heading down 8th Ave., the two trains would be neck-and-neck, or perhaps the E would gain a slight edge, the bull and pinion gears on the R-6/7s wailing away at E or F above middle C. Sure, those old-timers were swift, but so were the R-10s. Of course, I knew all along that the A train I was on wouldn't be stopping at 23rd St., and soon enough, the E train would start slowing down while the A kept going, blowing past 23rd St. and, with that downhill run to 14th St., putting on a burst of speed before blasting into 14th St.
Once in a while, you'd get lucky and blow by a local train between stations.
On the No.6 Line I beat the Express from Grand Central to Union Square during the AM Rush. I normally connect with a No.5 at Grand Central. I usually get the Jump and the No.5 Normally has a Yellow around 33 Street. Then the No.5 slowly passes but once again I beat him to 28 Street and take off before he passes again. Then when I enter 14 Street I pull up along side the No.4 Train ahead. The No.4 closed it doors before my Conductor Opens the Doors which is good. Then as the No.5 makes a stop we leave before they open up. The No.5 does pass us at Astor Place.
I hear that the Park Ave. straightaway isn't what it used to be regarding express runs, although a 4 train I was on last October got up to 40 mph at 23rd St. before slowing down for the rest of the trip to Union Square. Same thing between Union Square and Brooklyn Bridge. The expresses crawl more often than not.
On the Broad Street local, I forget the car number, I saw some grafitti (blue spray paint, on the celing and the walls, not some scratch grafitti).
Saturday the Embarcadero segment of the F Trolley line opens to the Fisherman's Wharf area. This lines features rehabbed PCC's and some ex'Milan Peter Witt's. Although operated to tap several major tourist attractions the line is an integral part of Muni and by far the best run part of the system. When you are out here check iy out. you may also visit for more info and pix
Pardon http://www.streetcar.org/ got left out above
I had an argument with a generally pro-auto, anti-transit co-worker yesterday. He believes that when the census is in, the share of NYC households with one or more cars will go up from 1990 to 2000. I believe it will go down.
Which do you think? If the thread is picked up, I'll chime in with some statistics on past trends.
BTW, the bet is the percent of households with one or more "vehicles available" in their household, not the total number of cars. The total number of cars can go up even if the percent with a car goes down, because there are more households, and because those households with cars are more likely to have two or three rather than one.
Is this bet on what the true facts are or on what the Census records? If the latter, the outcome of your bet may depend on the comparative effectiveness of the 2000 Census vs. the 1990 Census in recording facts about people at the bottom end. Are you going to ignore the data collection issues?
(True facts or as reported)
Good question. I guess we'll have to go with as reported.
And my first fact. We now know that the census bureau failed to identify and send questionaires to almost 400,000 NYC housing units in 1990, due to problems with the address list. These units were in all neighborhoods -- rich, middle class, working class, mostly in the boroughs outside Manhattan. This error is over and above the problems people knew about. Pending an appeal, these folks may get counted this time.
...these folks may get counted this time...
I wouldn't count on it. The first mailing to 120 million citizens had mistakes on all the addresses.
I must be in the 120 million, as the only Census 2000 info I have is what I get in the various media. Nothing from the Census Department.
I also have yet to get my pre-census letter, and am starting to get worried. BTW, the Wisconsin congressional delegation has been a big opponent of the census and efforts to get more people counted, since their own population is not growing. Was politics involved in giving the contract to a Wisconsin company which then SCREWED UP BIG TIME! Who is to say. With both Democrats and Republicans culpable (as in the S&L scandal), I doubt we'll see much of an investigation.
I'll say the percentage of households with one or more cars will be up slightly (3%?) for the whole city. According to the S.I. Advance there are twice as many cars registered to S.I. addresses now than 10 years ago. But the S.I. population has surely not doubled. I think the additional cars here belong to the younger families with two cars moving here and the kids of baby-boomers now reaching driving age (like 17-year olds with BMWs). I'm also assuming more vehicles per household in prosperous northeastern Queens and even southwestern Brooklyn (Dyker heights, Bay Ridge). So Queens and Staten Island will boost the citywide number up a bit.
The increase will not be great because many of the new immigrants to the city may have no cars or one car per household. What was the percentage for 1990??
(What was the percentage in 1990?)
In 1990, 46 percent of NYC households had at least one vehicle, up from 44 percent in 1960. But the shift of population from Brooklyn to Staten Island accounts for a lot of that. From 1960 to 1990, the share of households with one or more cars in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx went down, but these boroughs lost people. It went up very slightly in Staten Island and Manhattan, and these boroughs gained people, so the citywide figure went up.
[I had an argument with a generally pro-auto, anti-transit co-worker yesterday. He believes that when the census is in, the share of NYC households with one or more cars will go up from 1990 to 2000. I believe it will go down.
Which do you think? If the thread is picked up, I'll chime in with some statistics on past trends.]
I'll say that it's probably gone down, though very slightly. There are more jobs in Manhattan today than in 1990, and people generally don't need cars to get there. Elimination of two-fare zones probably has made transit use more attractive in many parts of the outer boroughs. Finally, the costs of car acquisition and ownership have been going up and up.
I'll throw in a guess that it goes up. From an economic standpoint, times are much better today for a broader cross-section of New Yorkers than they were in the late 80's.
Does anyone have any idea what the assessed valuation is of all of the non-exempt real estate in Manhattan East of the center line of Third Avenue from Houston Street to the Harlem River? How much of a real estate tax surcharge on those properties would be required in each of the next 10 years to cover the cash requirements of that year for building the Second Avenue line from 125th Street to Christie Street?
One could argue that people living in those buildings have already paid for the Second Avenue Subway. Their property taxes are high enough.
A special assessment has been discussed for the #7 line extension. The west side has enormous development potential which the subway would help realize, and you could use some of the additional taxes to pay off the bonds for the line.
But the East Side is pretty built out, and apartments are charged higher taxes than small homes in NYC. It would be more fair to take a share of the existing taxes and build the subway.
Non-exempt -- those are fighting words. As far as I'm concerned, those hospitals on the East Side are more money grubbing than any for-profit business. They should start paying property taxes. If they did, a couple would probably close, and the taxes on the reused property would probably be enough to build the subway.
One could argue that New Yorkers are better at arguing than at getting anything built. An intelligent argument requires data. Anyone have any idea what the assessed valuation is of the property I described in my first post?
You could probably find information for all of Manhattan on the NYC Department of Finance website. A special data run would be required for more localized data. City Planning could do it if it received a census tract file with the tracts you wanted to include (or a tax block file), but I'm not sure it would.
In any event, you are talking about an area that already pays an above average share of the city's taxes, since apartments are taxes at a higher share of full value than small homes (like mine). Despite this, they have the most crowded subways. And, a full length Second Avenue Subway with connections would benefit the other areas as well.
Perhaps the city could dedicate the revenues from the increase in taxable real estate on the East Side resulting from new constructoin to the subway, arguing that the subway is needed to accomodate this growth. I believe a local ordinance would be all that is required. However, the city requires all the money it can get for Medicaid.
I wanna know something. How does Amtrak work their Engineers? Do they do the same thing a pilot's Boss would? for example, I drive the Train from Penn Station. This Train is headed for Ocala Florida. Will I go all the way to Florida? Also, Say I left, Sunnyside Yard on Monday coming. When Would I tell my Children I will be back? Also, The Train leaves Penn Station at 8:00. When do I stop and then Return to New York City? Also another thing, If a Train left Lorton Virginia, at 8:00 how is the Engineer able to go up till 3:00 without stopping? is there a Bathroom in Amtrak's Locomotives? Cause their P32DM Genesis Trains look Different than Metro-North's Genesis Trains. Also, where does the Amtrak Trains that go over the Hell Gate Bridge, where do those Trains Go? also what do you think the Life Expectancy of the Genesis P32DM's will be? I am 17 going on 18 in December. Do you think I will be able to operate a Genesis? Also, what is the Fastest that Amtrak is allowed to go? Also, is it True that to be an Engineer, I must gain experience from another Railroad?
Please post a response when u read this and if not, Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will you give it a rest!? You've asked this question like 5 times. I don't think anybody really knows. Find an Amtrak related MB or website, I think they'd be much more qualified to answer your questions.
If it helps, the PH-40 DOES have a bathroom--in the nose of the locomotive. I am sure that the new ones would also because it can be quite some time between questions.
I will be taking the City of New Orlenas train next week. I can ask the engineer (they use Genisis locos) and report back.
Remember Amtrak Train CREW (not service personnel as in Hotel Service) are covered by the federal 12 hour drop dead law.
Does anyone have a complete listing of all of the IRT Destination Sign Readings
from the R33 to the present
Thanks
Steve
Please note,,,there were NO Service Changes or proposals discussed in this months book
Steve
Hi
Does anyone have a complete ,up to date ,service plan ,for the opening of 63 st Tunnel ,,including the Letter Designations
Steve (thanks)
There is no plan yet. Just speculation (a favorite pastime in here).
NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO!
Sorry for shouting... I'm just getting sick of seeing this question come up at least twice a week. When there really is one, don't worry, it WILL get posted here!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My father told me that a few days ago, he read an article saying that AMTRAK is starting a transcontinental route from New York to Los Angeles? Does anyone know if this is a fact?
Yes, it was announced by AMTRAK earlier this week. The story was on WCBS Newsradio-88, as well as in the New York Time. No details were given, other than to say it would a "luxury service."
I am confused, you can take Amtrak from NYC to LA but you have to change trains at least once. SOOO
This is direct service?? No change of trains required?? I would hate to be out west and not in SuperLiner which can not operate in the northeast with the exception of DC by a certain route.
Direct Service in non SuperLiner is not fore me thank you.
I don't think superliners fit into Penn Station anyway.
Also what route do you think this train will take out of New York? Will it traverse the current NE Corridor mainline? Or will it go up the Hudson Valley line?
The latter would be a historical plus, as would starting the train at Grand Central if that were to occur. The original transcontinental route from NY-LA, the "20th Century Limited", began at Grand Central.
The 20th Century wasn't a transcontinental - it ended in Chicago. There has NEVER been a transcontinental passenger train in the United States. The closest anyone has ever come is "change in Chicago".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Sunset counts as a transcon. And I'm told that while there wasn't a Single train, they did have cross-country pullman cars that were switched in Chicago.
-Hank
did the national limited have a thur sleeper when amtrack started. the car was change in kanas city with a 12 hour layover (or so)
Mea culpa, I forgot about the modern Sunset Limited. There were PRR cars that went through on the UPpity and NYC cars that ran via the Santa Fink (both PRR and NYC linked up with other roads as well, I just don't remember who with which - I know somebody connected via the SP as well) but I don't consider that a true transcontinental since it wasn't the same train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And IIRC, it didn't last very long anyways....But as far as this 'new' service is concerned, I BELIEVE they were talking about adding some Viewliners for the service. Also they aren't real sure what route they'll use. A real nice route would be straight out to Denver via St Louis, KC, and the UP secondary Main..then follow the old Desert Wind route down thru Vegas...I thin a nice one seat ride from the East Coast to Vegas would be a real easy sell...Also, as has been suggested, up the Hudson Route thru Chicago then thru the old Burlington/UP Main route to Denver...(Then they could sell the politicians from Nebraska and such that theyre giving sevice other than at 3 am!)
Since Amtrak no longer uses GCT it is unlikely they would come back just to use the water level route.
They can still do it, they just use the Spuyten Duyvil cutoff.
-Hank
It'll definately be single-level equipment. According to the story, the train would be run in partnership with a private company (mentioned was American Orient Express). Likely, it would be an all-sleeper train, which would be Viewliners. The article also mentions that Amtrak will be seeking more capital $$$ for additional locos and cars.
-Hank
Any indication of what ROUTE the new NY-LA trans-con will take? I can think of several:
* Current Lake Shore or Pennsylvanian to Chicago, then SW Chief;
* As above to Chicago, then the former Desert Wind thru Denver, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas to LA;
* As above to Chicago, then via Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltd;
* Current Crescent to New Orleans, then via Sunset Ltd;
* Current Crescent into proposed new branch to Fort Worth, then via Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltd.
According to what I heard it will go through Chicago. I have not heard any specifics as to which route it will take between NY and Chicago or Chicago and LA, although it is supposed to be an existing route, which rules out the former Desert Wind (wish they'd bring that one back, my older daughter & her husband and children live in Las Vegas).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it is supposed to be an existing route, which rules out the former Desert Wind....
Depending on how you look at it, Las Vegas should become an Amtrak route again by September 2000 when Amtrak starts running Talgo service from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. Granted, that still leaves Salt Lake City to Vegas as a gap on the route map. However, as you can go from Washington DC to LA without changing your sleeper on the Capitol Ltd./Southwest Chief run-through, then running the new service from NY to LA via Chi/Denver/Salt Lake City/Vegas would be very attractive and serve two West Coast markets, not just one, without duplicating an existing route.
I agree it would be nice, but I don't believe that will happen. They are building a new station in Las Vegas for the LA service that will not connect easily with the line to Salt Lake City.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1st I would assume that the route would go thru Chicago since that's another of the major Amtrak hubs, i.e. fill it up at NYC & Chicago with Amtrak feeder trains.
2nd: [The article also mentions that Amtrak will be seeking more capital $$$ for additional locos and cars.]
I thought Amtrak was getting out of the government subsidy business, is this long haul service supose to pay for itself ? Even if they try to fill it up with a lot of packages (as said in another part of this thread) wouldn't it still come far short of paying it's way ? So, what is this announcement dumb Amtrak mngt. or something serious ?
Mr t__:^)
Amtrak self-sufficiency is a joke. The idea is that Amtrak will no longer need operating subsidies. The government will still provide the capital dollars.
-Hank
The story I saw said Amtrak was trying to create their own type of "hub-spur" system, similar to the way airlines operate, in order to increase its "non-passenger" (i.e. package transport) services. Going by that, there could be a couple of ways to get from New York to L.A., none of them exactly a direct route until you get into the Rocky Mountains, where they system only has one or two lines it can use to get through the area.
Isn't there already a trans-continental route through the south from L.A. to Jacksonville, FL?
The Sunset Limited is the train you're thinking about. Under the new routing, the line will change its route though Texas, going northwest from Houston to Dallas-Fort Worth, and from there to El Paso. That will allow Amtrak to connect it up with the Texas Eagle coming from Chicago and St. Louis, to make the city more of a 'hub' location.
As far as being part of the New York to L.A route, I'm sure they'll have something more direct west of Chicago. New York to L.A. via Chicago and Dallas is not exactly a straight line.
I'm going on the mother of all feid trips. I'm going to do the entire sytem plus SIRT. Hopefully i'll start at 5:00 A.M. at Tottenville at end up Whitehall at around 12:45 A.M. It will be me and two other friends. I already have my route planed out and schedueled to go during the summer of this year. I don't think that I'll invite any subtalkers to come. (I don't think that there be a big turn out of people) I just thought i would tell you guys.
Isn't the NYCS world record like 22 hours? R U planning to break this record? If not, has anyone here thgought about it? One could use computer models to plan the best route.
What i heard was that no one has done the entire subway plus the SRIT, so no matter what time i finish, i will set a new record
i have several of salaam's videos--- i am currently editing them down to one trip on each line --- i then will ride the whole nyc subway system by video from the comfort of my home--- taking into account the time required to change cassettes, i have calculated that it will take me about 12 hours to ride the whole system :>)
R U going to Ferry it and then SIRT? Here's an idea, try and ride every part of the NYC transit system including all the buses, LIRR, Metro-North, PATH and Metro-North West-of-Hudson service. Find a sopnsor and a cause and do it over spring break.
SIRT and then the ferry, the SIRT is where i'm going to start from. And i don't have the time or the kind of money needed to do somthing like that. My trip will only use $3 consideing that the Ferry is free
Are you going to do thew SIRT from St. George to St. George, or take the S-76 bus from Grasmiere to the R at Fourth Ave. and 86th St. (or vice-versa -- R to the bus to the SIRT).
I would think a round trip on the SI Ferry, enjoyable as it might be, would add on at least a half an hour of `dead time' than just taking it one way and using the R in Brooklyn (though you would have to double back to get in the 95th St. station)
That's the S-53!
What is your itinerary?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sorry, but I don't want to give it away and have somebody do what i worked hard for about 2 months
>>>Sorry, but I don't want to give it away and have somebody do what i worked hard for about 2
months <<<
For Pete's sake, is there prize money involved? Jeez...
03/04/2000
BEWARE ! of construction projects with bus replacements etc. That may be hard with owl work projects at one time or another.
Bill Newkirk
I just got back from today's Canarsie Line Fieldtrip, organized by heypaul. There were six of us - myself, heypaul, Doug AKA BMTman, wsteil, subwaysurf and High St./Brooklyn Bridge. (Too bad Salaamallah coudn't make it).
We boarded a train of R-40 Slants at 14th St. and 8th Ave. and road the entire line (with a stop at New Lots Ave. for some photos of the former connection with the Bay Ridge line) to Rockaway Parkway, where we exited and walked several blocks to explore remants of the old steam/trolley ROW that went to Canarsie.
On our way back, we got off at Broadway Junction (noting the new overhead passageway) and caught a C train to Franklin Ave., where we transferred to the Shuttle to Prospect Park. Then we took the D a couple of stops to Atlantic Ave. where we took a look at August Belmont's former connection of the LIRR with the IRT. I bailed out here to take the LIRR back home. At that point the remaining 3 in our party were headed towards Bush Terminal to check out the reports of LIRR diesel engines in the yards.
It was an enjoyable afternoon of railfanning.
By the way, heypaul is much more subdued in person than he is behind the keyboard :-)
>>>where we exited and walked several blocks to explore remants of the old steam/trolley ROW that went
to Canarsie. <<<
Funny thing is I was there a week ago to photograph the remnants of that trolley.
Clues are:
Trolley poles and T-poles on Glenwood Road at odd angles. They once aligned with the trolley ROW.
A NO DUMPING sign with the "NYCTA", the MTA predecessor.
ROW continues as far as Flatlands Avenue, Thereafter, it's pretty much built over further south.
I didn't know about this trip. As it was, I was infiltrating an abandoned hospital in Staten Island.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did you take note of the Log Cabin at Flatlands and 92nd?
>>>Did you take note of the Log Cabin<<<
I have heard of it, but forgot about it. Is it affiliated with the old trolley? If so, did you get a picture of it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hi, Kevin.
No, the log cabin is not affiliated with the old Canarsie Line. Apparently, it was built by a local businessman many moons ago as a lunchenette/restaurant.
It is currently owned by Fillmore Realty Corp. and is used as one of their offices. Heypaul and I went inside the building and one of the workers there knew of the structure's history and even pointed us to a picture on a wall depicting the old lunchenette configuration.
BTW, the trip was a sponteneous one and we never really planned to venture out past fare control at Rockaway Pkwy. Since we all had Fun-Passes -- and the weather was GREAT -- as a group, we decided to walk and take a look at the old ROW and the original Main Street of Canarsie during the heyday of the B&RB RR, Conklin Ave. Some interesting sites there. I'm sure we'll do it again, probably in even warmer weather.
A NOTE TO MY FELLOW SUBTALKERS: I was not able to post most of this weekend due to my computer getting a long-overdue upgrade. I will not be posting as frequently until about Wednesday or Thursday. (So, don't panic if I don't answer to things that might be posted for me looking for a response).
PS: my e-mails will go unanswered until my computer is returned. I can post from work but in-and-outgoing mail is a no-no.
Doug aka BMTman
Let's have more of these spur-of-the-moment fieldtrips. If my schedule allows it, I'd love to join one.
I'd be game for one after this Sunday's LIRR Rockaway Branch trip, weather permitting.
--Mark
Remember, if you're touring this ROW, bring a large knife to chop your way through the trees and weeds, a baseball bat to beat off the rats, and some sort of firearm in case the homeless who inhabit the Atlantic Ave. station don't take too kindly to your presence.
I wonder if the wooden shack built on the 101st. Ave overpass is still there. It was used by the FBI to spy on Gotti's Bergen hunt & fish club, and it was vandalized several times.
Certainly, more of these will come down the pike so long as the demand is there and weather permits.
BTW, one of these trips I'd like to have terminate (or take a lunch break) at a famous eatery. For instance, if we have the time and a large grouping we could end the day riding the D or N train to DeKalb and dining at Juniors (now there's a place with alot of Brooklyn history!)
Maybe a list could be created that features famous and/or popular eateries that are near major subway lines?
Doug aka BMTman
Here's some:
RestaurantStationLinePeter Luger'sMarcy AvJ,Z,MKatz' Deli 2nd Av F Nathan'sStillwell AvN,B,F,QJeremy's Ale HouseFulton/Nassau or Bklyn Brtoo many to mentionChinatown (various)Canal StreetBMT (most) & IRT LexLittle Italy""Restaurant Row50th StreetA,E,CSheepshead Bay (various seafood)Sheepshead Bay D,QJahn'sSomeone helpJ,ZEquestrisAqueductA,H?
Jahn's is located in Richmond Hill.
What station? Not that I'm going to do that again! Tables are very confusing to do. Especially with just WebTV and no computer. That post took me about a half hour!!!
The closest station is 121st. St.
RestaurantStationLinePeter Luger'sMarcy AvJ,Z,MKatz' Deli 2nd Av F Nathan'sStillwell AvN,B,F,QJeremy's Ale HouseFulton/Nassau or Bklyn Brtoo many to mentionChinatown (various)Canal StreetBMT (most) & IRT LexLittle Italy""Restaurant Row50th StreetA,E,CSheepshead Bay (various seafood)Sheepshead Bay D,QJahn's121st StreetJ,ZEquestrisAqueductA,H?
That took me about 30 seconds, using no tools not at a WebTVer's disposal.
[I didn't know about this trip. As it was, I was infiltrating an abandoned hospital in Staten Island.]
Now that sounds cool! Will you be putting any pictures on forgotten-ny?
>>>Now that sounds cool! Will you be putting any pictures on forgotten-ny? <<<
You betcha. I was on a trip with a couple of buffs affiliated with the www.darkpassage.com site, which invades abandoned buildings; I recommend teh site. Not as large as Forgotten or nycsubway.org, but absorbing as is.
03/04/2000
Kevin Walsh,
I tried accessing www.darkpassage.com but couldn't. Is this URL correct ?
Bill Newkirk
Yes. This URL just worked for me:
http://www.darkpassage.com/
The 'darkpassage' site stalls, it must be having problems right now. Were you exploring the old Seaview Hospital?
>>>Were you exploring the old
Seaview Hospital? <<<
True.
thanks bob for your kind words--- as far as my part in the trip, i only served as middleman between salaam and the rest of us--- the credit for success of the trip's planning goes to doug--- his tour of canarsie and the l line was not planned by me--- the excellence of his presentation makes me able to overlook the fact that he was 15 minutes late--- but he explained that he had let a couple of l trains go by, hoping that he would run into the r110
when we got off at new lots ave to look around, i didn't say anything to anybody--- but i could have sworn that i heard the sounds of chainsaws somewhere off to the east on the lirr tracks
i was really astounded by the real estate office that was built out of logs--- i went in with doug, and the interior was really outstanding--- it is the fillmore real estate office--- unfortunately they did not have any other log cabins currently listed...
after bob, andee, and harry left, we headed to 36th and 4th ave, where a limousine met us to take us to the railroad yards--- it was driven by a liberal, so i guess we were driven by a limousine liberal--- on the way over to the yard we stopped at the 39th street bus storage yards and doug noticed 3 subway cars parked in the back of the yard--- the more we looked at them, the stranger it seemed--- as best as we can figure, they were 3 q cars in rather sad shape--- were these cars mentioned recently on subtalk?--- they came as a complete and utter surprise--- we went around the fence and would have tried to get a better look if not for some wild swine who were swooning in a big puddle
we went by the south brooklyn yards ( or whatever the name of the operation is ) and doug took some pictures of the remaining lirr diesel--- one of the
people there said it was going back to gm---
we returned to 36th st to head to coney island, where i promised to show doug and bill my home in the former funhouse--- one more final treat awaited us--- b train service was routed over the n and ran non stop from 59th st to stillwell--- i really enjoy the wrong railing express run--- unfortunately we were in an r68, and could not see out the front
it was really a great day--- it was great to meet andee, harry, bill, and meet bob again--- doug again provided a highly informative and interesting day---
and i was my normal foul mouthed vicious self....
Sounds like a GREAT Field Trip, and just a small part of how this site gives me so much pleasure ..... Thanks Dave
A funny side bar ... any Field Trip you do in the company of our BMT friend seems to always end up on the Franklin Shuttle ... does he have a thing for the elephant dun on that line of what ?
Mr t
you're not kidding about ending up on the franklin shuttle--- it was a spontaneous event and that was the joy of it--- i honestly don't know how we ended up on the shuttle--- we had gotten off at broadway junction--- we took a c--- i just looked on the map--- this goes to show how stupid i am--- i was trying to figure how we got onto the irt to transfer to the shuttle--- uh-- the connection to the shuttle at franklin is with the 8th ave subway--- anyway, we ended up on the shuttle--- i was looking at buildings on the ride to prospect park and noticed some old lettering on a building indicating heinz--- i must take another look at that, as i am wondering if there was a heinz factory there or it was just an ad for heinz foods---
I am not too far from the NL station and have used it a couple of times. Where is this old connection located? Ill probably check it out tomorrow........
3TM
Hey Bob, sorry I have taken so long to respond but I had a great time also
And your right heypaul is a great guy
subway surf agreed that heypaul is a great guy
i agree--- we are privileged to have him amongst us
flood the daily news with demands to run the article featuring heypaul....
A young woman of my acquaintance likes to explore old ruins and abandoned tunnels, sort of what I do with Forgotten NY, but rather more daring. A whiile ago, she and some friends were exploring the tunnels deep under Grand Central Terminal. Here's part of her account of what she found, from her website, www.darkpassage.com:
A rail worker had emerged on a walkway next to us and asked what we were doing there. No great excuse immediately came to mind. We were looking for a pedestrian tunnel leading to the street, we answered. The worker came down to join us on the track. He was in his early fifties, a bit severe at first, but soon becoming friendlier. There were no such tunnels anymore, he said; they had all been closed off. But there was a staircase on our right leading to the street, which he suggested we take. He himself guided us up one level to the upper trains, bringing us to the middle of the easternmost track next to a small service area where another staircase ascended.
What we were doing was extremely dangerous, he said. Even people who had worked there for 20, 30 years sometimes ended up getting killed by the trains. In fact, right behind us (we craned our necks) a friend of his had gotten sliced in half. There were other forms of death as well: just ahead of us, for example, they had found an Irish girl who had hanged herself (though he had his theories on whether it was really a suicide). More delightfully morbid accounts followed from his long career in the tunnels. The large "Stay Alert" sign nearby took on new significance. We wanted to keep him talking and not be sent up the stairs, though he turned down our request to take us around. He mentioned the multitude of closed-off tunnels and that they were thinking of re-opening one from Grand Central to Penn Station. He mentioned the homeless, who had mostly disappeared, and the large rats.
And how many levels were there, we wanted to know. Two or seven? "Fifteen," he said.
------------------------------------
First, is that guy right about there being fifteen levels beneath Grand Central, and second, is he right about there being an abandoned trackway connecting GCT and Penn?
www.forgotten-ny.com
There is not an abandoned trackway connecting the two stations. The stations were constructed by bitter rivals who went out of their way to avoid interchanging freight directly in certain locales.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
there are 2 full levels of tracks in GCT. There is another level below the lower level, but it's just a passageway, formerly for baggage, now it's part of the northern exits.
-Hank
Yeah, there are 2 levels, 48 tracks and 4 ex-interlocking towers, some with 400 levers. I'd tell your friend that exploring Grand Central might not be the best idea. Aside from the electric trains that move along w/o much noise there is also the omnipresent 3rd rail that is charged with 600 volts of bone frying direct current.
Do employees access the interlocking towers from the main level or do they have to enter through some hidden employee only entrence. How many towers are there?
Do the 48 tracks include the yard tracks? I remember seeing that there are small offices under the platform of the middle number tracks on the upper level. Also there is a stair case on the upper level with several employees adsending. Anyone know where they lead?
And anyone know the track layout, where they split, where the interlockings are and where the levels decend?
>>>Do the 48 tracks include the yard tracks? I remember seeing that there are small offices under the
platform of the middle number tracks on the upper level. Also there is a stair case on the upper level with
several employees adsending. Anyone know where they lead? <<<<
They (the www.darkpassage.com folks) had been in search of Track 61, which apparently leads to a secret door to the Waldorf Astoria; FDR had used the door as president. They did find that door; Track 61 is not in revenue service.
www.forgotten-ny.com
it's strange--- on the l line trip today, i was talking with bill about this same topic--- i thought there were six or so levels below the suburban level-- with storage yards and repair shops--- on the first era sponsored trip to grand central, i thought that we did go to some of the lower levels--- when i came home tonight and checked william middleton's book on grand central station, it seems that someone removed all mention of any lower levels--- anyone have any info on this?
>>>>I'd tell your
friend that exploring Grand Central might not be the best idea. Aside from the electric trains that move
along w/o much noise there is also the omnipresent 3rd rail that is charged with 600 volts of bone frying
direct current. <<<
I have. These folks do things I don't endorse. I've gone into real tough neighborhoods in search of Forgotten items, but playing with electricity ain't one of them. Another guy I know, Frank Jump (www.frankjump.com) has been known to climb up on elevated train catwalks in search of the perfect picture. I'll go only so far.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[First, is that guy right about there being fifteen levels beneath Grand Central, and second, is he right about there being an abandoned trackway connecting GCT and Penn?]
No, and no.
Sounds suspicsiously like an excerpt from "The Mole People", which has been debunked pretty well on Brennen's site.
O the Beauty and the Beast TV show.
I was just getting ready to post bout something I saw yesterday. Near the indoor entrance to the Graybar buiding, there is the entrance to the new meat deli with a stairway to the lower level. Opposite this public stairway is a slightly lower room to the side, right adjacent to the deli entrance. There are two doors. one was open, and it leads to a bare brick stairway leading down six or seven flights, visible through the space between the stairs. Now these were small flights (about 10 ft high landings), so the lower level might have been two of these flights down. But it still went way below that, and the bottom was dimly lit (and a flight above that was completely dark). This must be the entrance to the subterranean passages. The landing did have these old stains like the homeless had been there before.
How many levels at GCT? It depends how you count. There are
only 2 track levels. Towers A and B are located slightly off-level
on the upper and lower track levels. They are accessed via a
stairway that is slightly north of one of the upper-level
platforms, somewhere around Tk 23 I think.
Below that are utility rooms.
I've heard that the bottom is about 120' below the
upper level tracks, i.e. at the 7th level. There are supposedly
rotary converters or MG sets down on one of the lower levels that
were left in place rather than trying to haul them out of there).
There should also be ejector (water pumping) rooms below the lowest
usable level.
There is no passageway to Penn Station although rumors were that
a tunnel was started during WW II by the Army Corps for military
reasons, but not completed. There are probably underground
penumatic mail tubes running to Penn Sta or the GPO across the
street.
The under-running 3rd rail presents far less of an electrocution
hazard than the over-running type of the subway and LIRR, but
still safety is the word. The greater danger, by far, is the
large number of partitions and other visual barriers around
switches. I've seen trains seemingly come out of nowhere down
there.
great--- so there are levels beyond the suburban level--- i have a sense there must be an elevator that goes down to these levels--- although i suppose the heavy equipment that you say is down there might have gone in when the terminal was built---
originally i was thinking of contacting john tauranac, the author and mta consultant, because i have been on a couple of tours of the station that he gave
perhaps, i should take a ride into the city this morning and see if i some of the metro-north people might have information about the lower levels
jeff thanks for the information
Way back in June & July of 1998 there was quite a long discussion about Grand Central. I saved copies of several of the posts:
"The elevators make four stops, identified by letters ... the four stops are: the balcony overlooking the main concourse (top of escalators); the main concourse; the (regular) lower level; and the third level. Getting off the elevator at the third level are, I think, three tracks on your left ..." I think this is the level that Jeff H. was talking about.
Another SubTalker said, "... GCS has 109 tracks (originally 123). However in the map of the station within the guide shows 30 tracks on the upper level (track 11 to 42) and 17 on the lower level (track 101 to 117). This adds to 47 tracks ...."
Another SubTalker said "... track 118 to 125 is the Madison Ave Yard ..." which we now know will service the LIRR when it comes to GCS.
That makes 55 ... if we add #61 identified in this thread, and the runaround track that, which, IIRC, goes between the levels it makes 57.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, if I remember my Superman movies, didn't Lex Luthor live somewhere under GCT? When that detective was poking around he used that penumatic door to push him in front of a New Haven FL-9 that was rounding the loop track.
>>>Hey, if I remember my Superman movies, didn't Lex Luthor live somewhere under GCT? When that
detective was poking around he used that penumatic door to push him in front of a New Haven FL-9
that was rounding the loop track. <<<<
It's likely Luthor's lair was inspired by the real-life door down there that connects to the Waldorf.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin: There are several levels depending on how you view then. Let us take the main floor at Grand Central Concourse upper level as the first one. Remember that if you enter through Lexington Avenue it is a level walk, but if you enter from Vanderbilt Avenue you must walk down a staircase to reach the concourse. The upper level tracks are actually about a half level lower since there are decending ramps to all of them and one platform,tracks 11 and 13, must be reached by a staircase even though they are on the upper level. The next level is the "lower level concourse" which is a full level above the lower level trackways. Below the lower level trackways where the trucking subways at 43 St and 45 St. By this I refer to the old baggage trucks. The 43 Street one is still in use but the 45 St one has been converted to a pedestrian walkway. The 43 Street trucking subway connected into the lod power plants the floors of which where one level down and the coal pits for these had their floors down another level. To simplyfy I might put it this way:
Upper Level Concourse and Trackways "LEVEL U"
Lower Level Concourse "LEVEL L"
Lower Level Trackways "LEVEL P"
Trucking Subways
Floor of Power Plant
Floor of Coal Pit.
Larry,RedbirdR33
larry can you describe the power plant--- what does it produce power for? is it still producing power?
how large of an area is it? what was the coal pit for? thanks paul
Paul: I'm not sure if the power plant is still in service. Basically it was a coal fired plant that produced steam heat for Grand Central and many of the surrounding buildings. There were huge steam pipes running through the 43 Street Subway. Apparently coal was delivered from the street and dropped into the pits by means of chutes. The plant may have been converted to oil in later years. I'll make a few inquires and get back to you with more current information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There are two elevators on each side of the ramp from the Oyster Bar to the Shuttle Passage. According to the sign, there are offices. Are they up or down, I don't see any outside windows, so it's a windowless tower. Is there one on the other side?
Up. There are rooms above the level of the main concourse, in a tower at each cornerof the concourse. The first level of each tower is at the balcony level, but they extend further upward. If you sit in the bar on the West balcony, you can see through the windows at the East end of the concourse the shadows of people crossing between the Northeast Tower and the Southeast Tower on a catwalk.
Found while surfing:
------------------------------------
There used to be, until about a year or two ago, a
dark & scary tunnel from 35th to about 40th or 42nd under 6th avenue.
It's gone? Bummer. I remember using it, many years ago.
For a long time, the Transit Authority refused to admit it existed (the story I heard was that somebody was trying to rent space in it for commercial purposes, and the TA kept saying it wasn't there). I wonder why they closed it instead of making money from it.
The TA closed this tunnel because it became know as "Rape and Pillage Central". I think that in the last year that it was open there were over 10 rapes and more than 30 robberies in it.
This tunnel (together with many others like it as well as much mezzanine areas) have been converted by the TA into office space, Transit Police stations, and storage. It's much cheaper that buying or leasing space on the surface...
-------------------------------------
Can any subtalkers verify the former existence of this pedestrian passage?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, I can. Don't remember when it closed but it's been many years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This passage has an interesting history.
If it weren't for the fact that there were fare controls, you could have used this all weather passageway, combined with others to go from Penn Station or from the H&M at 32nd Street all the way to 44th (or is it 45th?) and 6th.
The 6th Avenue el had a station at 38th Street. When the el was to be torn down the merchants at 38th demanded a station, but the Board of Transportation refused. But to mollify them, they built the passageway, and put entrances at 38th Street on both sides of 6th Avenue. From the street, you couldn't tell that it wasn't a regular station, and that you had to walk to either 40th or 35th to actually enter the subway.
I used that passageway a number of times. It was very wide and (unlike the former passageway to Penn next to Gimbels) didn't seem very threatening.
As to when it closed, my wife worked on 38th around 1984. I once wanted to point out the station entrance to her, and it was gone! So, my guess is it closed a few years prior, or about 20 years ago.
No, it was around 1990. I was grown when i would occasionally walk through it. Perhaps they had closed off that one entrance before that.
Are there any traces of entrances to this mezzanine from the 34th or 42nd Street IND stations? If so, sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, there are doors in the 40th St. exit of the 42nd St. station that lead into it. When I used to use this station to get to work I occasionally saw the doors open, the passageway area is used for storage. There's probably access at 34th St. too but I never looked.
Dinkins era thinking. Don't bother the criminals, imprison the public in places where the criminals can't get to them, or you'll be sued.
I'd like to see a full fledged pedestrian network a la Montreal. No, the weather isn't as bad, but the sidewalks are crowded, and those who walk on them have to stop for lights at streetcorners.
Now that the crime rate has come down, . . . ?
On the corner of 38th St and 6th Ave, the sidewalk on 38th St is wider at the corner than it is down the rest of the street. On 38th St at the corner, you can see a staircase leading to this mezzanine through a grating. I do not remember if this grating had a locked gate or if it was solid, but I *think* it's a locked gate. The shape of the sidewalk clearly deliniates this area as a subway entrance. I believe this entrance was built as a "replacement" for the 6th Ave El which had a station in that area, and people were upset that they'd lose the station when the EL came down.
--Mark
[Can any subtalkers verify the former existence of this pedestrian passage?]
I saw it a couple years ago. I was in the 42nd Street station at the south end, and some workmen apparently had left the door open that normally closes off the passageway. I got a good look into it, although there were too many people around for me to risk actually entering it. It was fairly well-lit and clean, with various stuff stored along the walls. In short, nothing really exciting.
I saw it too when some workers had it open. It was about the same width as the mezanine of the 42nd St. Station, and had signs in the tile with arows pointing to "42nd (or maby it was 40th) St" and "38(?)th St.".
subfan
When I was a messenger, I used this tunnel almost everyday till I left NYC for life in the military(1990)......this tunnel had an entrance at 38th st and always was chock full of action
[When I was a messenger, I used this tunnel almost everyday till I left NYC for life in the military(1990)......this tunnel had an entrance at 38th st and always was chock full of action]
A violent crime (a rape, IIRC) that occurred in the passageway convinced the Transit Authority to close it off, presumably because they were worried about liability.
The clincher was that they were found liable in that case, as they had left some construction items (boards, etc.) in the passageway, leaving a perfect location for the crime to be committed; otherwise, as it is a public area, there is a legal doctrine whose name escapes me just now (any of the lawyers here want to help?) that would have protected them from legal responsibility.
subfan
You are correct, providing that my memory serves me correctly.
About this time the TA also closed off nearly all the lightly-used entrances and corridors in the system, and vigorously removed visible traces of them. Seemingly that policy remains in effect. Unused el station mezzanines that remained standing for decades following disuse have been removed in the past decade or so.
Among my favorites that were removed ca. 1990 or so were the underpasses (like on the RR at 23rd Street) and some sealed-up entrances to the GG at Court Sq.
There are a number of mezzanines still on the Bway el such as at Gates Av.
Right, COnrad. They are still closing entrances-- the latest closure is the Grand Street Exit at Metropolitan/Grand on the G line. The entire Southern half of the mezzanine has been closed. New wall tile has gone up, including new white on black directional sings and the onlyt entrance is the Metropolitan Ave exit (transfer to the L). Several stairways remain on each plat but they are behind floor to ceiling gated grills and presumably used for police/service access. The area where the Police was (and still is) is now behind twin doors and is used for storage, a Police Task Force and various facillity rooms for employees. Most IND stations had full length mezzanines. most of them now two partial mezzanines. A careful examination of platforms, tiles and ceilings will reveal clues as to where the exits were.. While some are still open, I expect further mezzanine reductions on the IND= especailly on some of the lesser used stations.
Will all of these closings and stair removals effect air temperature and quality?
If a person wanted to remove a ragweed shrub, an environmental study would have to be done.
The IND was designed before AC, Where and how does the excess heat get out?
many stations have vent chambers to remove hot/stale air. Metropolitan on the G is one such station.
True , but i do believe, the cubic space of the mezzanines and the stair wells were factored in when the original air exchange was planned . I just try to go with my own comfort level when I find a warmer that usual area and notice the shruken environs(is that spelled right?)and think "more heat ,less air Hummmmmmmmm.
avid
ps Air is fluid, but temperatures can bunch up ie Grand Central platforms in August.
Let's take the G Line. AT Fulton, Broadway and Now Metropolitan there have been mezzanine reductions. The stations still have vent chambers-even on sections ewhere the mezz is now closed.
At Metropolitan the layout is interesting: From the mezz near the stairways to the G plat is a small short door which leads to a utility chase(The door is mostly open and I did not go in!) Inside the door is a catwalk. Above the catwalk is the street rgating and below is the ceiling of the G plat. Try standing under the vent chambers on a rainy day (or windy day) you'll feel it!
03/04/2000
As reported here a day or two eralier, some LIRR GP-38's were being marshalled around the NY Cross Harbor yard at 1st Ave in Brooklyn. I was there today and saw only one left, GP-38-2 #269.
Also by the shop building was Alco's #25 coupled up with #21 nose to nose. #21 has had the windows boarded up and seemed out of service. Anyone hear anything on this? Out for scrap ? Being brought out of mothballs for service ?
Drove down to the SBK yard at 39th St. and 1st Ave. The pump cars, ex-Q-types are graffittied and a sad sight.
Bill Newkirk
Reporting
Those GP38-2s are probably being ferried across the river. I believe they're heading up to the EMD plant in Canada for refurbishing.
The Q Types are still in the SBK Yard? Did someone buy them? Or are they just going to sit there because they have no value? They'll have to leave sooner or later. The worst thing that could happen is the TA might just scrap the cars themselves.
-Stef
03/04/2000
And now the R-40 Slant question of the day. If you don't answer Wayne R-40 Slant, you must be sleeping!
When the last 100 R-40 SLANT ends were delivered new, which were the only slants with air conditoning, were they delivered new with pantograph gates, or were they installed on TA property ??
Also since we're talking about R-40's. Look at any picture of a R-40 MODIFIED. I don't know if you can see this on the GOH cars. But right behind the motormans cab window, where the "M" TRANSIT logo was applied, look closely. You should see some scoring marks in the stainless steel possibly eight of them, They seem to be in a circular pattern as if there may have been a large "TA" emblem there first. Was this true? The other 300 R-40's (slants) had the old "TA" emblem, but when the modifieds came in, it seem the MTA was formed. It looks like holes were drilled and then patched, and some grinding to smooth the patches over. Check your old photos, you'll see what I mean.
Bill Newkirk
The Slant R40 with air-conditioning, AS DELIVERED NEW were #4450-4549, current numbers #4350-4449. No Slant R40 had pantograph gates when delivered new, just the two short 90-degree railings. I am not sure whether the pantograph gates were installed on NYCT property, I would have to guess YES, because I didn't see any exodus of Slant R40 around 1971, which is when the gates began appearing, out of safety concerns and complaints about locked "A" end doors.
I did notice the "M" logo on the R40M and the R42. Not sure about the spot-weld marks. Next time I see an R40M up close, I will look for that pattern of repair.
The R40M's original numbers were #4250-4349. They now are #4450-4549,
which is the same as the original A/C Slants. Some of the R40M had odd "brake test" numbers, like AS19, CB22, etc. when first delivered.
These were those in the #4300 series, and got their first permanent numbers in 1970, which actually wound up being the #4500 series, because they juggled all the numbers around that year.
Wayne
03/04/2000
Wayne,
This may have been discussed here before, but since I don't remember, why that renumbering fiasco with the slants and modifieds ? Was there another class car that had a renumbering like the R-40's ?
Bill Newkirk
I'm really NOT sure why they numbered the cars the way they did - perhaps it had to do with the way the cars arrived - R40Ms arriving before the last of the R40 A/C slants - and the brake test numbers thrown in for good measure.
I don't recall such reneumeration with any other car classes on such a scale EXCEPT during the GOH of the R44 and R46.
Yes, the R40 cars DID have the "TA" logos when new - I was referring to the R40Ms and R42s.
Wayne
You should be careful with the words you make up. Renumeration IS a word, it just doesn't mean what you imply it does.
Are you sure you don't mean "remuneration"? Or could you tell us what "renumeration" means?
Oh yes, that's what I meant. Silly pig that I am. Renumeration means nothing, so it's free for the amateur lexicographer.
OK tell me what you think "MULGE" is.
(Hint: Piggies LOVE to play in it/with it)
BTW - that WAS a typo, trust me.
Wayne (I have a few other made-up words up my sleeve as well)
My finger is on the rim shot button.-)
OK fire away.
As a little kid I learned to speak early. Real early - like at 10 months old I was attempting speech. I couldn't pronounce words correctly so sometimes I made up my own words for things. One such word was "dicketydacker" - which was my term for the LIRR MP-70 bilevels.
Wayne
I think we all did that to an extent at that age. My folks say I had my own terms for certain colors. My niece had her own terms for balloons (bayai) and fountain (fafia - rhymes with Mafia). One of the first things she could say very well was bow-wow. My nephew kept saying, "adido" when my sister and her clan visited us in December; my mother thinks he was trying to say, "atiduok", which in Lithuanian means "give it back".
At least I knew what a subway train was when I rode on one for the first time in 1965.
The first R-40 slants DID have the old blue & red "TA" logo before the "M Transit" logo was applied.
--Mark
03/04/2000
Wayne,
On that question of renumbering, that doesn't include the R-44's and 46's of GOH fame.
Bill Newkirk
For those people who don't like off topic conversation on SubTalk, I've created a group for those who do! I hope that next time when a thread veers off topic, instead of changing the title, move it to Off SubTalk!
Subscribe to Off SubTalk
Enter your e-mail address:
offsubtalk archive
A group hosted by eGroups.com
Pigs, what a great idea, worthy of a noble American Landrace such as yourself.
What about filling in your application? We now have TWO! Political Polls!
i just signed up at off subtalk--- do not get your hopes up--- i am not planning on going off subtalk myself--- but i am exploring the possibility of having a post on subtalk that mentions rudy, hillary, limousine liberals, high taxation, and niagara falls automatically transferred to off subtalk--- although i don't feel that this is fair to off subtalk, since it was conceived with a much nobler purpose in mind
Oh, this is just what I need, another e-mail list. It'll go right along with Conrail-Talk, Reading-Talk, PRR-Talk, Railway Signals, Interlocking Towers, Delaware and Husson, Lehigh Valley RR, New Englande Rails and The Signalbox Blower.
LOL!!!!!
You can block e-mail and read it on the web if you are intersted.
From now on, every person who posts in a political thread will be invited.
Spare us the spam - last I looked it's not kosher :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He("Pigs") likes the fact that he has nothing to fear from those of us who observe kashruth furthermore those who do not eat pork MAY be spared GREAT SUFFERING in the PIGVOLUTION
During the G.O. of the C line, there were some wierd sighting, the wierdest of them all had to be the R38s on the "B" line. Here are two photos from this special time in the history of the R38s!!!!
Will will probably never see this again (Hope we do though it was fun!).
Enjoy
Trevor Logan
03/04/2000
Sort of reminds me of those hardscrabble days the R-38's ruled the (B), with blue doors, no air conditioning, grafitti and noisy as hell! GOH makes a difference.
Bill Newkirk
Sorry, R-38s never had blue doors!
Not on the outside, but on the inside, the doors originally had the same light blue tint as the R-32s. The R-38s also had a thin blue stripe at the belt rail which went all the way around the car.
Yeah...I've never seen a digital letter "B" on a head car. I've only seen A, C, R and N...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't forget E & G! Well the "G" had the R32s for a minute!
The "G" had the R-38s before the overhaul with the curtain signs!
Trevor
I've also seen R32s post-GOH on the B, Q and F lines a few times. I don't know why they might have been assigned there for such a short time.
I saw an R-32 end sign, and saw the following:
0987654321ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ (space)
I guess that's the test pattern!
It can only hold 1 characher. That makes NO sense whatsoever!
He means that it went through a test pattern where in each character was shown at once. not in one shot!
Trevor
Hmmm. The route sign doesn't make any reference to an IND branch the way the A and E signs do. It's nice to see the old Southern Division title, though. Of course, a "Wash. Hts.-6 Ave.-West End" sign wouldn't be correct nowadays anyway.
R38s also ran on the E
If the subway map were wiped clean, and the subway system had to be started from scratch...
...would there be lines built in the same places as now? It's fairly obvious there wouldn't be els, and every line would be a subway that may occasionally rise to grade.
But would lower-income neighborhoods be assured of mass transit? Would there be subways down Broadway, Wyckoff Avenue, Pitkin Avenue and Fulton Street in Brooklyn; Westchester Avenue in the Bronx; Liberty Avenue in Queens?
Or would mass transit, should it be constructed from scratch in 2000, be restricted to the richer areas in Manhattan, the western and southern areas of Brooklyn, and northern Queens? I'd hope not, but the poorer the neighborhood these days, the less likely it is to share in the apparent economic boom.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Or would mass transit, should it be constructed from scratch in 2000, be restricted to the richer areas in Manhattan, the western and southern areas of Brooklyn, and northern Queens? I'd hope not, but the poorer the neighborhood these days, the less likely it is to share in the apparent economic boom.]
On the other hand, the richer 'hoods are likely to have a lot more NIMBY opposition to subway construction. Poorer neighborhoods probably wouldn't object as much and therefore might end up with more lines.
the poorer areas are the ones that need it more, look at the busiest lines mosyt come from the poorer area, where they is no other affordable way of communting
In addition to NIMBY, two other acronyms come into play:
BANANA... Build Abslutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody
LULU... Locally Undesirable Land Use
Any proposed project (be it a subway line, bus depot, group home, etc.) faces these hurdles as a matter of course. That's just the way of the world.
proposal #1 sewge treatment plant. NIMBY
proposal #2 oil refinery. NIMBY
proposal #3 detention center for criminaly insane ,violent ,alian ,
child molesters. NIMBY
proposal #4 new location for Center for Desease Control. NIMBY
proposal #5 new subway route. sounds better!
A really interesting question, Kevin.
Of course, it's unanswerable (chicken or egg stype argument), because New York City would not exist in its current configuration but for the rapid transit lines.
However, to give a partial answer: it depends who had the power to build the lines and what reasoning they apply.
On Long Island the original thinking was to electrify the Port Jefferson and Montauk branches (at least as far as Patchogue) "because that's where the ridership was."
Instead they put both projects aside and electrified the lightly used (one train every two hours) Ronkonkoma Line instead. And the reasoning was that the line, being centrally located, was accessible to larger numbers of potential riders, and that the upgrading of the line would provide an economic boost to the working-class heavily minority communities of Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip.
You know what? They were right. They developed huge ridership and provided benefits to the communities.
[On Long Island the original thinking was to electrify the Port Jefferson and Montauk branches (at least as far as Patchogue)
"because that's where the ridership was."
Instead they put both projects aside and electrified the lightly used (one train every two hours) Ronkonkoma Line instead. And the reasoning was that the line, being centrally located, was accessible to larger numbers of potential riders, and that the upgrading of the line would provide an economic boost to the working-class heavily minority communities of Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip.
You know what? They were right. They developed huge ridership and provided benefits to the communities.]
It should be pointed out that the Ronkonkoma electrification had unwanted side effects. Instead of leading to a roughly equal distribution of ridership among the Port Jefferson, Montauk and Ronkonkoma lines, electrification resulted in the first two operating well below capacity while Ronkonkoma is grossly overcrowded. Small parking lots at Montauk-line stations have many empty spaces even in the middle of the day, while Ronkonkoma's huge parking areas - the main lot looks like something at a major shopping mall - are completely filled soon after 7:00 a.m. What the LIRR management never counted on is the fact that many riders refuse to change trains. They'll put up with Ronkonkoma's hideous conditions just so they don't have to change. As far as I can tell, the advent of dual-mode service hasn't changed things significantly on the Montauk line (I don't know about Port Jefferson). People are just too attached to Ronkonkoma, God only knows why.
As far as the development of Central Islip, Brentwood and Wyandanch is concerned, yes there may have been some progress, but I question whether there's been any proof that electrification has been responsible.
I wonder when the LIRR's gonna electrify to port Jeff? Given the high traffic there, and the potential to relieve some of the Ronkonkoma's crowding, it might make sense.
Considering that in the days before the main line was electrified all the trains went either to Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma. Huntington was just a regular station, not a terminal. Maybe it would be easier to replace alot of the M-1 and M-3 trains with dual modes and have all trains on that line go to Port Jeff rather than Huntington.
The thing about the subway is that it was the end of an evolutionary process under conditions that do not now exist. Trolleys allowed density, which was better served by Els, which allowed more density, which was better served by the subway. Subways built since WWII have been enormously costly and subsidized. LA County, one of the densest in the country, has not been able support a subway.
Perhaps a better question is, if you knew what we know today about the city, could go back in time and be a "subway czar" from 1900 to 1950, and would have enough money to build the same number of track miles, how would you arrange the subway?
In my case, beginning in Midtown, you'd have four-track subway lines on Park and 8th avenues, and two track lines on 10th and 2nd Avenue, along with crosstown lines on 14th Street, 42nd Street, 59th Street, and 125th Street from river to river. On 6th Avenue, you'd have a six track line -- four express tracks -- running all the way up through the park and out the other side.
Outer-borough trains would be evenly spaced. Locals would run in "inner" areas and then turn around before the end of the line, as on the Queens Blvd line. Expresses would run local past the end of the local tracks, and would include a series of large park-n-ride garages, with a big one at the end of the line. The expresses extensions would be built before the onset of devevelopment, and would be up on embankments in their own ROWs a la the Brighton.
All subways would go through to Manhattan, but a series of light rail lines -- at grade but in their own ROW -- would allow travel around the boroughs.
MetroNorth, the LIRR, and NJT would all be on the same power system. with one set of tracks running through from east to west for the LIRR and NJT, another running through from north to south, onto Downtown Brooklyn and back to Jamaica, for NJT and MetroNorth, with a big station in the middle of midtown where the two sets cross.
And the NJT (ex-Erie) Main would be electrified up to at least Suffern...or maybe Harriman...or even Port...[too bad the Erie was always broke.....with a real, properly financed RR, that actually might have happened...]
I was wondering how the subways trains deal with gapping out. Now I know that the gaps are short enough so at least some cars still have power, but I was wondering if there was any system so that none of the cars will loose power. As you know as the subway train trundles along the lights are flashing etc. Can't they have a central power cable running the legnth of the train. All 3rd rail shore would feed into it, and then the motors would feed off the connected power supply. So as long as one shoe had power, the whole train would have power and then no more flashing lights or power drop off's. Or am I wrong and is it set up this way.
Back in the days of the HiVs, this was the case. There was a trainline trolley that prevented any car from being without 600 volts as long as any had it. However, the cons of this system outweighed the pros. Today, most 3rd rail main-line gaps are less than one car length. Even if one car gets gapped the others will still have it so as long as the lead car has descent batteries, the train will still take power. For short trains such as collectors, there are 3rd rail jumpers aboard. In the case of a revenue train being gapped, the crew holds one end of the jumper on the 3rd rail while the other end is held on any contact shoe. The train will then move until it picks up a 3rd rail.
Wouldn't an arrangement such as the Hi-V blow the fuses as a 10-car train draws current from just a single shoe?
-Hank
Only if the fuse were not heavy enough. However, to use a fuse of that capacity for the express purpose of powering a train on a single contact shoe would be one of the cons i mentioned. There is no real protection under normal operation.
On the streetcar side of the world, Baltimore's 5800 class semi's had bus jumpers to reduce the number of trolley poles up on trains. In the recent modern era, Shaker Rapid (Cleveland) used bus jumpers on PCC cars, again to reduce poles on trains. Shaker ran up to 5 cars in a train (Racetrack specials), usual max was 4 cars. 4 car trains ran with poles up on the 2nd and 4th car; 3 cars used first & third; two car trains ran with second car's pole only.
I think that one of the arguments AGAINST bus jumpers on the NYC subway was the need to be able to isolate sections of third rail. In places where the train goes from one power "zone" to another, there is a gap about one carlength in the third rail. Thus, if a zone is powered off (for example, due to a fire or someone walking on the tracks), it wouldn't get power through a train which happened to be parked with one car bridging the "zones". Bus jumpers between cars would defeat this, and would make isolating a zone more difficult (but not impossible, it's done elsewhere).
It's interesting to note that the Triplexes only had 3rd rail shoes on the two center trucks (the ones under the drum connectors), just so that they wouldn't bridge zones. I'm not sure how they worked it with the longer Multisection cars -- perhaps from a power point of view they were two separate units?
-- Ed Sachs
That was recently a big issue here in Philly.
The old Almond Joys had no "jumpers" - each car was power-isolated.
In designing the M-4s, AdTranz thought a great "feature" would be linking power systems within each married pair, so that gapping would be less of a problem.
Well, the M-4s were delivered, and SEPTA realized that this was a big problem. The new M-4s posed a huge safety risk becauise now SEPTA could not guarantee that any section of 3rd rail was turned off when it was supposed to be. SEPTA's solution was to lengthen the 3rd rail gaps along the whole line, which is exactly what they did.
Isn't there also the added 'feature' that there's a hot 600 volt connector on the coupler if you do this, and that if personnel aren't careful climbing into the car they can bump into it?
Wouldn't an arrangement such as the Hi-V blow the fuses as a 10-car train draws current from
just a single shoe?
The circuits were separated with a resistor, 10 ohm I think,
feeding the trainline control 600V supply from the main 600
line. This prevented excessive currents from flowing through
the bus jumpers. 10 ohms in series with a traction motor circuit
is practically an open circuit in terms of making the car move.
There was however the problem of bridging a section gap (as opposed
to a mere 3rd rail gap such as at a crossover) and energizing
the dead section, as noted in other posts in this thread.
10 ohms in series with your body and 600V is just about as painful
as the 600V directly.
Today, most 3rd rail main-line gaps are less than one car length. Even if one
car gets gapped the others will still have it so as long as the lead car has descent batteries, the
train will still take power.
And if not....wouldn't the battery voltage come from the B+ tl?
hahahahaha. Jeff, remember when we used to lose P-wire due to weak batteries in the head car? We'd end up having to shut off all lights including the headlights to move over gaps. For what ever reason B+1 doesn't do it, even today.
Heh, do the LIRR MUs have this neat "feature" too?
BTW - I've heard that it *is* possible to gap an overhead electric at a phase break. It must take a lot of talent (or lack of) though...
As a matter of fact, if you get into an LIRR M1 or M3 cab, yo will see a white label telling the engineer how to 'Loop the P-Wire' on a car that becomes gapped. Once again, trainline battery is a myth.
Ah, the bad old days of P-wire. Unfortunate, just as the bugs
were finally worked out, the whole system was thrown away and
replaced with that horrid Cinekluge (not nearly as bad as the
R44 Westcode fiasco though).
Yeah, if the batteries are really low and there are some shorted
cells they can pull the whole B+ bus down. There are limit resistors
connected between the trainline and B1 on the car to prevent
a dead short somewhere on the trainline from killing all the
batteries. Those resistors will also introduce a lot of voltage
drop in that situation.
At least all the static converters don't blow when running over
rusty rail unlike some cars that we know :)
As our youthful friend goes out to set and set Subway+SIRT one time riding record, It came to me "Why hasn't anyone tried to break the existing NYC Subway record?" I was thinking that with computer modeling and wireless communications this should be feasible. I was also thinking about facilitators or a ground crew that could help make a record run possible. Let us say Subtalk pitched together to break the record. While an elite team of subtalkers (preferably those who could run fast and not need to use the bathroom often) would try and attempt the record run, a support team could follow them around. The support team would provide food and water, swipe turnstyles in advance of the "riding team", provide a "human wall" as the riders relieved themselves in small containers, serve as advance scouts as per what trains are suffering delays, headways and arrival times, and lastly, if the riders are going to miss an important connection the supporters could hold the doors until the riders arrived. The support team could also serve as witnesses and fully document the escapade. Also for this record attempt the riders could get on the ferry and take SIRT so prevent the undeserving from finding a loophole into the record book. My other thought was to have a "tag-team" ride the whole system. If we couoldn't get a group to go the distance, a baton counld be passed between legs.
i am not disagreeing with jersey mike's idea to have
support teams ( especially since he will be counting
the subtalker of the year ballots )--- in fact if
pgitty and his troup of merry troubadours were to
set out on their project, i would be happy to
applaud their performances while they were riding
the system--- i would also be happy to help pigs
from royal island try his hoof at the record
books--- if it got too warm in the car for him, i
would hose him down with a seltzer bottle
however, there are some subtalkers that i would
actively seek to harass, were they to attempt to set
a record--- what would i do?
1. i would organize 20 of my cleanliless challenged
friends to follow the group around, and make it
impossible for them to ride in any subway cars
2. at key subway stop restrooms, i would have all
available stalls and urinals occupied by harassers--
3. i would gain access to the control of the
holding lights at key stations, and hold their train
in the station for a 3 or 4 hours to make a
connection
4. i would ask the police to check to see if any
member of the group had any outstanding warrant for
unsafe operation of a chain saw.
5. i would arrange with robert shaw, hector
elizondo, and martin balsam to hijack the train---
in the event the ransom of $8 billion dollars paid
in rolls of used pennies isn't paid and delivered
within 30 minutes, the members of the group would be
shot, and the hijackers would give up---
An interesting concept.
However, I object to the idea of holding train doors open in general, and especially to accommodate the marathon rider(s).
Anybody who blocks doors to keep them open (whether with an arm, a leg, or a child) is effectively saying "I, who haven't boarded the train yet, am FAR more important than the 2,000 of you slobs who were willing to wait."
Besides, the point of the marathon ride is to cover the entire system in conditions normally exerienced by the riding public - that includes actually waiting a few minutes for the next train, swiping ONE'S OWN card, and so forth.
Y'know, I'm just sitting here thinking that a lot of people complain about the linking of R62, R44/46, and R68 cars, saying that if something is wrong with one car, you lose 4 (or 5) cars at a time. But some of these same people scream 'I love the triplex!' The triplex was essentially 3 cars, and together they had only 4 trucks.
With linked cars, if you lose one short-term, there's always the possibility of a mix-and-match, as each car has all equipment (some disabled, some removed). With the articulated triplex, you had no oppurtunity to replace a car in the short-term. So how is the triplex better?
-Hank
there are a couple of ways that the triplexes were
different:
1. the triplexes never broke down--- coney island shops
had only 1 inspection track in the old days, as there was
never a need to bring a standard or triplex in for repair
work
2 a three car unit of triplexes was really just 2 cars
in length---
3. the triplexes were built first delivered in 1925, and
as a result in 2000, they benefit from the grandfather
clause: HOW DARE YOU CAST ASPERSIONS ON ANYTHING THAT OLD?
:>)
I think you hit the nail right on the head - the Triplexes just kept going and going and going with very little maintenance. They were superbly designed units which would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance in the late 70s, had they been (and should have been) kept.
The BMT standards were no slouch, either. Even the cars in the B units kept all of their vital components, IIRC, so even if one car did have a problem, a single A car could be substituted temporarily and the unit placed back in service.
Your point is well taken. The downside for any permanently coupled units, be they held together by link bars or articulated, is availability. My criticism has centered on the statistical methods used to compute the great almighty MDBF performance measure. One would require MDBF to be multiplied by the number of cars per unit to get comparable availability measures. Thus my criticism of: 1 - coupling 5 units together; 2 - getting a two or three fold MDBF improvement; 3 - proclaiming this to be a great improvement for the riding public. The Triplexes, Multis, and the BMT experimentals were not immune from this problem. This is probably the reason that they were relatively short: 80 to 170 feet in length - depending on the model.
One department that the Triplexes excelled at was passenger carrying capacity. This had very little to do with whether or not they were articulated, attached with link bars or single units.
One interesting sidelight regarding the Triplexes. They were supposed to be used for tunnel service, when they were purchased. I've always wondered, if routing these heavyweights over the bridge did not contribute unduly to the cracking problems.
The triplex's had signs inside and out which indicated either "Via Bridge" or "Via Tunnel". Therefore, I don't think that they were conceived with the notion that they would never cross the Manhattan bridge. However, I'm sure that there was some concern.If I'm not mistaken, the weight of a triplex was between 210,000 and 223,000 Lbs. It was also the length of 3 standard IRT cars which also weigh between 210,000 to 225,000 Lbs. I think the actual problem with the triplex's going over the bridge was axle load. The axle load on a standard IRT car is (18,000 Lbs) or 33% less than that of a triplex. Despite this, the triplex's frequently crossed the manhattanbridge in the 60s.
...I don't think that they were conceived with the notion that they would never cross the Manhattan bridge...
I was referring to an article in Electric Railway Journal at the time that they were delivered.
Do you have a copy of the article or a URL where I can view it? I'd be very interested in the thinkig of that day.
I read the article 40 years ago, while I was a college student. The "for tunnel use" slant stuck in my mind because it was counter to the operating practices of the 1950's. Copies for these issues Electric Railway Journal are available at the NYPL SIBL but they are at the "Annex". This means that it takes one day to see them. Alas, the bound volumes that I read were in the stacks - ready for me to pull them out and read.
The axle load of a fully loaded Triplex was, IIRC, 40,000 pounds. This was why they couldn't run on the 1893 elevated portion of the Jamaica line above Fulton St. Of course, running them over the Manhattan Bridge didn't help matters there, either.
Well, I'm not big on arguing against semi-permanently linked cars, except to note that you cut down on operating flexibility with the longer couplings, e.g., when you make up trains into sets that are half the length of a train, you can obviously only make up full- or half-length trains.
When the TA began operating R27s on the BMT in 1960, they cut the max lengths of BMT rush hour trains by almost a full car, because the Standards were 67' and the R27s 60'. They could have run 9-car R27s, except there were no R27 singles. It wasn't until Chrystie Street and expensive station lengthenings that the Southern DIvision got longer trains back. Eastern Division still hasn't, 30+ years later.
As to the Triplexes and other articulateds, more useful space and load balancing was achieved by effectively making longer cars. A safe passageway was created between sections. Linked units have the disadvantages of single cars without only a few of the advantages of articulated ones.
[ When the TA began operating R27s on the BMT in 1960, they cut the max lengths of BMT rush hour trains by almost a full car, because the Standards were 67' and the R27s 60'. They could have run 9-car R27s, except there were no R27 singles. It wasn't until Chrystie Street and expensive station lengthenings that the Southern DIvision got longer trains back. Eastern Division still hasn't, 30+ years later. ]
The platforms on the old BMT, designed for 8-car trains of standards, were (and, in the case of the J Z M L lines, are) not long enough for 9 car trains of 60' cars. An 8-car train of standards was approx 534' long, while 9 of the newer cars are 540'. Doesn't seem like much longer, but the station designers took advantage of the fact that the doors of the standards were fairly far in from the ends of the cars, and the stations were only a bit over 500' long. The trains typically extended out beyond the ends of the stations by 10-12'.
As for R27 singles, ever heard of an R16? (They did mix and match these after Chrystie St. opened).
-- Ed Sachs
All stations along the Broadway elevated BMT (J and M lines) are 550' in length, which means 9 car trains of 60' cars was possible. However, the need never arose for longer trains.
If the platforms could accomodate a 9-car train of Standards, that would be 603'. (67' x 9 = 603'). Looks like plenty of platform. Or, were the platforms significantly shorter so the trains of Stanards would overhang? I don't remember as in my youth, we didn't do much riding on the BMT, even though we lived in Brooklyn (we were nearer the IRT on Nostrand Avenue.)
Seems to me they could have used ten-car R27/30 trains if they were only 60' long, but maybe I'm missing something.
What you're missing is that most of the platforms on what was the BMT southern division have been lengthened since the 1960s. They were, as I have said, originally designed for 8 car trains of Standards, and even for them there was some overhang at the ends of the platforms (the platforms were 20-25' shorter than the length of the train).
The platforms on the Brighton line were extended in 1964 in anticipation of operating 10 car trains after Chrystie St. opened. Extensions on the other lines came later.
-- Ed Sachs
It must have been tricky to stop on the mark!
The R-16 certainly could, and occasionally did, run in mixed consists with R-27s and R-30s, and in fact blended in fairly nicely from a stylistic standpoint. However, AFAIK they were never used to create 9-car trains. I wonder if the TA ever gave any thought to doing that on, say, the Brighton line. OTOH, this was when letter markings were being implemented on the Southern Division, and running R-16s would have defeated that purpose.
What about the 5-car multis?
Don't let the appearance of 3 cars fool you. The D types are
really 2 67' AB cars, even underfloor: Each D unit has 2
switch groups and 2 brake packages. This isn't any worse than
married pairs. The objections to the linking projects are for
the 4 car and 5 car sets, which result in a much higher penalty
for a single failure.
With the increasing reliability of the subway fleet, the problems of taking multiple cars out of service if only one breaks down is a moot question. However, if cars were configured this way 20 years ago, then half the fleet would probably be unavailable on any given day.
Which is why the R62/68 were ordered as single cars, and now are being linked.
-Hank
Which is why the R62/68 were ordered as single cars, and now are being linked.
If you mean to deliberately prolong the car shortage problem, then I agree.
You're assuming that each unit in a 4 car set would have the same mechanical performance that a single car would. Remember that 4 car units share certain components, whereas single units have everything they need on one car. More parts, more things to go wrong. So yes, when something goes wrong on a 4 car set, it would require all 4 cars to be taken out of service. But the linking means that there are fewer chances of something going wrong on each individual set.
No, I mean because in the 80s the MDBF were so horrible, car availability was extremely low. By ordering single cars, they were able to increase availability while getting the rest of the fleet in decent shape.
-Hank
With the increasing reliability of the subway fleet, the problems of taking multiple cars out of service if only one breaks down is a moot question.
I have stated several times, the point is NOT moot. In order to achieve the same availability for 5 car linked units you MUST increase the MDBF to 5 times that for the same cars operated as single units.
The MDBF appears to have improved two to three fold. That means that they are only 40%-60% of the way to achieving the same availability that they had 7 years ago, when they had single units.
However, if cars were configured this way 20 years ago, then half the fleet would probably be unavailable on any given day.
The present figure is around 85%. This has been stagnant for a decade.
the issue of mdbf and car availability is a troubling area for me--- you said that 85% of the fleet is available on any given day--- what is the reason for a car's unavailability?--- my guess is that over 90% of it is for scheduled maintenance--- i would be very surprised if a large number of unavailable cars are in that state because of a breakdown---
let's say a car has dead motors and it is part of a 5 car set--- how is that car serviced?--- can they cut it from the other 4 cars, or do they have to bring the whole 5 car set into the shop?---
i used to work in the garage at railway express years ago--- the shop foreman would keep a list of out of service trucks and the work required on them--- most of the shopped trucks were as a result of inservice breakdowns and defects reported by the drivers--- there was a preventive maintenance operation that would pull a couple of trucks each night for oil change, greasing, and general check over
my sense of what's going on in transit is that they have been engaged in an aggressive preventive maintenance as well as a program of modifying general defects or problems in a whole fleet--- about 5 or 10 years ago, when i toured coney island shop, they were just beginning some major overhaul or retrofit of the r68's--- i have a suspicion that the amount of money that they have poured into that particular set of cars is enormous--- even though mdbf may be at record highs, the cost of keeping those cars in service, i suspect, is very high---
has the fleet of r62's required as much attention as the 68's---
I think the majority of the 15% of the fleet that's unavailable on a given day is because these cars are recieving their scheduled maintenance. Particularly the R62 and R68, which receive regular maintenance and have all vital parts replaced before the life of that part is exceeded. This explains why both these car classes have such high MDBF's. An admirable accomplishment.
But the R68 is still too damn slow. LOL
(sorry, Steve)
chris--- you say that the replacing of components before their expired life is an admirable accomplishment--- but what is the cost of doing that?--- what was the original cost per car of the r68's?--- and how much additional money has been invested in maintaining and correcting problems that developed with the cars? how are average lifetimes of components calculated? are the impressive mdbf coming at an extreme cost?
Do you own an automobile? Do you not perform routine maintenance on it? Do you not replace the timing belt before it breaks? Railroads, like airlines perform scheduled maintenance because breakdown maintenance is far more costly in the long run. As for modifying the bugs out of a railcar fleet, what would you do? In 1994 the R-68s were operating at an MDBF of about 30,000 miles. Six years later they operate at about 4 times that. What would you have done with the 425 car fleet, scrap it?
i don't own a car--- i ride around on a bicycle---
the brake blocks are worn, and 3rd gear on the rear sprocket has been worn out for several years--- the bike cost me $30 at a yard sale about 6 years ago--- if i went to replace the rear derailleur and the sprocket, it would cost more than the bike was worth--- if i had the mta's money, i would replace all the systems and keep rolling along according to specs.
i think my question was how much is it costing to keep these cars rolling in their current condition?
i also would be interested in a list of the major systems that have been overhauled and the reason for the work?
the tour of coney island shops several years ago was about the time they were doing some major modification---
Sorry if I misunderstood your point. I don't have $$$ amounts but I can give you some info. SMS is done in 4 year, 6 year, 7 year and 12 year cycles. On the 4 year SMS, all air brake valves are replaced (FRA requires this on a 2 year cycle). On the 6 year SMS trucks are replaced (with rebuilt trucks). On 7 year SMS the air compressors are replaced. On the 12 year SMS, the workscope is intensive. It's in essence an overhaul but the workscope can vary depending on the needs of the fleet involved.
For the R-68s this included:
Replace trucks
Replace brake valve with Wabco type
Link to 4-car consists
replace all door tracks & hangers
Replace HVAC blowers with AC motors & inverters
Rebuilt HVAC Compressors
Replace Westinghouse propulsion with Adtranz E-Cam.
Paint Bonnets on open ends
Normally after an overhaul of this size, there is a period of declining performance until minor bugs are worked out of the cars. I'm happy to report that except for some minor door re-adjustments, the R-68s are performing as well or better than before overhaul. As they are tweaked and fine tuned, they will continue to improve.
thanks for the info steve--- i have two questions--
replacing westinghouse propulsion with adtranz e-cam
sounds like a big job--- what does "westinghouse
propulsion" refer to? motors? controller? ??
if a private operator were running the subways, and
they wanted to take care of their equipment, but
they also had to consider staying in business---
would they be able to do this kind of maintenance?
i think there was a time when the city replaced
street lamp bulbs or maybe traffic light bulbs on a
fixed schedule--- if a bulb's life was 1 year for
example, they would replace them in 10 months--- i
think the rationale was it would be cheaper to
replace them before they burned out--- i don't know
if they still do that--- there is a wastefulness to
that practice, in that you are discarding bulbs
before they burn out
what does that have to do with transit? again, i am
sort of wondering if a private operator could afford
to do such aggressive work?
or permit me another strange analogy--- i use to get
the fire department's monthly magazine--- there was
usually an article about a large fire written by the
chief who worked the fire--- at the end of the
article there was a "lessons learned" section, where
the chief would discuss the implications of the fire
and how it was fought-----
i don't know how you would rate the quality of the
r-68 fleet when it was delivered--- i really don't
know if the fleet suffered from design problems or
is considered an average designed fleet?--- are
there any lessons that have been learned from their
years on the property?
i won't put you on the spot--- but what will be with the newest fleet of cars being delivered?
(Would a private operator do so much preventive maintenance?)
He would if he had the TA's labor costs, and it saved labor in the long run. The TA can't afford to waste time.
larry--- i am not sure i agree with your analysis about labor costs--- also i wonder about whether the ta can afford to waste time--- how many years does it take to test a piece of equipment? i think they have the r110a's and b's for 6 or 7 years--- what were they doing over that period of time?
Those cars were prototypes with a ton of new features and equipment, thus necessitating the LONG testing periods.
The 110s were 'proof-of-concept' cars, incorporating hundreds of new features, many of which didn't make it into the production 142s. It's just like GM, which will test the body parts of a new vehicle on the frame of the old, or an oversized engine in a 1999 Ford Ranger to see if it's powerful and durable enoguh to use in the 2001 model. (they call it a test mule) After you determine from the POC carwhat works and what doesn't, you set about building yourself a pre-production model (usually by hand) This is the one they test extensively. Then they'll test maybe the first 100 off the assembly line, and then they finally say, 'OK, let's sell them!'
Same with subway cars, only on a different scale.
-Hank
The theory of preventive maintenance is that it is less
costly to fix something before it breaks. When a component fails
on a subway car, it not only means the labor of replacing it (plus
whatever else might have been damaged from its failure), but also
the labor of having to take the train out of service, and the
indirect costs associated with having train delays.
The SMS program is an extremum in the history of maintenance in
the NYC transit system, both private and public. Certainly if you
look at the history of the IRT and BR/MT, they did not change
components like this. Labor was cheaper, and they probably put
in as much if not more time on maintenance...don't forget the older
cars were much, much more maintenance-intensive than modern equipment.
The cost of material (components) was much higher relative to labor
than today, so most of the maintenance practices were directed at
saving material. They'd have rather paid mechanics to tinker with
tempermental things than to just rip them out and replace them
with brand-new components.
Last question first - The R-68 & R-68A were treated like large R-42s. None of the new tech stuff that went into the R-44 and R-46. Hence, it would appear that much of the detail was left to the builders without the 'benifit' of TA engineering oversight when the cars were ordered. Many of the problems of the R-68 fleet came from those 'cute innovations' which the builder added unchallanged (I will not specify for space reasons only) Much of the improvements we've made tot he R-68 over the last 6 years has addressed these issues as well as known weak-links on other fleets.
The Adtranz E-Cam unit refers to the group switch box only. By contract, the new unit had to function with the old propulsion and braking grids.
As for whether a private company can afford to do such preventive maintenance, I ask you can they afford not to? If you are not sure, check with Alaska Air. Car #2579 burnt because the Westinghouse propulsion system was prone to causing 'hot grid' incidents. At least one such incident led to injured customers. The E-Cam group switch box is less than $50K + installation and will be installed on R-68A and R-62A in addition to R-68s. That's 1450 cars X $50,000 or $72 million. What do you think the TA will save in maintaining the old group sw. boxes, save in repairing burnt cars, or save in potential lawsuits.
I hope that addresses some of your concerns.
thanks steve-- i especially appreciated the details on the switch box replacements and the consideration of costs and dangers of not replacing them---
i'd like to pose a question in a way that would not put you on the spot---
if there was a large meeting of all the people who are responsible for the operation and maintenance of the subway car fleet--- and they were charged with producing a report which would recommend the characteristics of the ideal new subway car to be ordered in large numbers--- let's say to replace the r142's which will never be found acceptable (sorry for cheap shot)--- what would be the recommendations of such a PCC convention?
1. stay with the current equipment
2. try some new technology
3. study the problem for another 10 years (cheap shot)
would this commission be able to recommend an ideal car that would reflect all that has been learned with the current fleet?
if a private operator were running the subways, and they wanted to take care of their equipment, but they also had to consider staying in business--- would they be able to do this kind of maintenance?
In many cases they would do more maintenance. Many regulated utilities have unregulated subsidiaries to whom they "outsource" expensive work. The subsidiaries charge top dollar. This reduces the profit on the regulated side - thereby justifying high rates, but keeping the profits for the shareholders.
Examples of this corporate legerdermain that come to mind are: Western Electric for AT&T prior to the split; Empire City Subway for NY Tel; Transit Development Company for the BRT/BMT.
The availability figure was close to 90%, when the BOT ran things and they still did preventative maintenance. Is there any reason why this figure should not be used as a benchmark for comparing present performance. From an economic perspective that translates to about 300 cars or $600 million! :-)
I agree -- this is a productivity thing the TA could do WITHOUT cutting heads. Ideally from a passenger and taxpayer perspective, Car Equipment would do most of its work overnight, when most trains are not needed, but no one wants to work overnight.
If, on the other hand, work could be done between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m., cars could be used in the morning rush on days they are scheduled for maintenance. These days, the morning rush requires more cars than the evening rush.
Aren't these the newest cars in the fleet getting all this work done?
At least their door chimes are in tune. I'll give them that.
One of the reasons,I dislike the linking of cars, beside it changes the way they were originally delivered, is that when one has a problem you lose the others in the link. We never unlink sets. It used to be the 62A's were cut into single units and inspected, propulsion,under car, car body, about every 90 days or about 10,000 miles. Now they bring in 5 car links. I think single units were much easier to work with. If we have a problem on the road, single units, can be set up easier and safer to be moved. The reason the TA linked cars was to save on maintenance costs. It just goes to prove..."You can't get something for nothing".
They were ordered with the ability to be converted to linked sets, so they're doing exactly what they've been designed for.
As for the inspections, now you inspect all 5 cars at once. You always know where all 5 of those cars are, no worries about what train 1234 might be part of when it's permenantly connected to 1231, 1232, 1233, and 1235. And how often do they have problems on the road these days? Have they ever cut defective cars out of a train on the road? Usually they just take the entire train OOS.
-Hank
What is the formula for deriving the MDBF? WHere can I find it?
I plan to go to NYC to take some pictures on #6 Redbirds. I know two places are good photo-ops: Whitlock Ave and Westchester Square. Does any other place have also good photo-op?
Thanks for the info.
Chaohwa
Now is the Best time to get Pictures of Redbirds on the Pelham Line. The Redbirds are out in full force on Weekends. On Saturdays most of the R62A'S are sitting in the Yard. Yesterday there was a Total of 4 Trains of R62A'S on the road. So Enjoy the R29'S R33'S and R36'S.
Why is that? Shouldn't newer cars be on the road and older cars be getting their rest during off-peak hours? Wasn't that why the cars on the B and Q lines were switched so the R40s could rest on the weekends and at night. Over on the 5 they do the same thing, they rest both sets of R62As on the weekends. I don't know why they are resting the 62As on the 5 and 6, but it just doesn't make sense.
Try Westchester Square. Very nice shots can be had of the downtown train as it arrives on the structure from Middletown Road.
You can sometimes get pictures of laid-up Redbirds on the non-revenue center track at Buhre Avenue.
Pelham Bay Park station has some funny-looking platform lights - angular,new heads stuck on ancient 1917 posts, some still wearing their original plaques.
North end of southbound platform at Whitlock Avenue is tough to beat for action shots, especially an express going around that curve.
Some of the underground stops have interesting tilework too. Check out the tire sculpture outside the Hunts Point Avenue station (at street level).
Wayne
Thanks for the info. :)
My plan is to visit Pelham line tomorrow around 11AM to 1PM. At that period it is better to shoot southbound Redbirds from the northbound platform. I will shoot at the north end of the southbound platform of Whitlock Av near 1 PM. I think that is the best time to shoot Redbirds at that angle.
Hopefully there will be Redbirds at the right time for me to shoot.
Chaohwa
Elder Ave, Pelham-Bay-bound platform, at the front. Nice view of El going for 3 stops. Makes especially good video. But the station shakes like a magnitude 5 earthquake while trains rumble through ....
--Mark
Wayne, your information really helps me!
Today I rode a 3AM Amtrak train from DC to NY Penn. I rode #4 to Yankee Stadium to take some pictures on #4 Redbird trains with Yankee Stadium as the background from the front of the northbound platform. I was somewhat disappointed because the end of southbound trains were dark. Also, because of sunrise, there were a lot of shadows. It is very hard to take photos with a lot of shadows.
Before going to my main mission-- Pelham line, I went to Dyre Avenue line's Gun Hill Road to see whether the R142A train was testing. I was lucky. I took more than 10 slides of it. Finally I discovered that between 10AM and noon is the best time to take Redbird pictures from the northbound platform.
After getting off at Simpson Street, I walked along Westchester Avenue to Pelham line's Whitlock Avenue station. I found that 11 AM is a good time to shoot southbound trains from the end of the southbound platform. Then I went to Westchester Square, Buhre Avenue, and Pelham Bay Park. As Wayne mentioned earlier, there was indeed a Redbird train sitting on the central track at Buhre Avenue. As I predicted, 11AM to noon is a good time to shoot southbound trains at Westchester Square.
Today's weather is great, but I was so tired that I took a 2:20PM Amtrak train back to D.C. Hopefully my slides do not disappoint me.
Chaohwa
How crowded was the 3AM train? I've known about Train 12's existance but who would take a train at such an hour.
For me, if I want to take NYC Subway pictures at sunrise except summers, I have to take Train 12.
When I went to Union Station at 2:40 AM, there were about 30 people waiting for Train 12. Like me, most of them went to New York. Train 12 became crowded in Philly. I really admire those who take this train to work!
Chaohwa
It's funny that in the movie Carlito's Way when Al Pacino gets on board the R30 in the last car it # 8277 (it was redbird) but the designation signs read: SOUTH FERRY
242 ST-B'WAY
BROADWAY THRU EXP
It was placed in 1975 but filmed in 1993(I bet it was during the time of the R30 fantrip that they did all the scenes)but they were making it to pretend that it was on the IRT Broadway Line it was 125 St but it was filmed at Smith 9th St the signs were in the old ways with big capital letters. But did the # 1 train back in that time did it run Express in Broadway. The main thing is that I don't get is that how the hell that added IRT roll curtains on the R30 in the movie. why couldn't they use R26/28.
Maybe it was done by the studio in Los Angeles that had all the R27/30 cars used in Money Train, Die Hard with a Vengeance, and others. They had (at least as far as I can verify) 8275, 8401, 8408 and about nine others.
03/05/2000
I haven't seen Carlito's Way, but now you mentioned it, I'll check it out. If the interior looked a little wide, it probably was an R-30. As far as IRT curtain signs, they can swapped in place of the BMT/IND ones. Why couldn't they use an R-26 or 28? Because the TA couldn't spare one, equipment shortage.
Bill Newkirk
No - the #1 B'way 7th Ave IRT did not run as an express at that time or any time between the '60's and now.
I remember when this movie was being filmed in 1993. The R30 had already been retired. I saw the odd looking R30 with IRT signs sitting at Hoyt-Schermerorn. As for why they used this train instead of an IRT train, my guess would be that because the scenes were being filmed on the B division, and that the R30's were sitting dormant at the Pitkin Ave. yard (the R30 saw its final days on the C line), it was probably easier to convert them. Only railfans would notice the difference from an IRT train. 70-ish signs would've had to have been installed on any IRT redbird used for this movie anyway.
03/05/2000
Just spotted a new TV commercial for "Fear Effect", a new video game by Eidos. The scene shows a interesting looking knockoff of a GOH R-38. I believe this is a Hollywood type set, I saw another commercial with this set because the giveaway was that the picture windows showed the opening portions on the bottom as opposed to the top. The florescent lights look very different too. It usually airs during WWF or WCW wrestling programs. Have your VCR ready to record so you can check it out in slow motion.
Bill Newkirk
seen the mentos gimmick?
One of the MTV commercials features a R38 interior.
I know that MTV have a scene in which a R32 C enters 42St......
3TM
03/05/2000
As much as I dislike the Airtrain routing, I must say ther is a lot of progress inside JFK on the expressway. There are numerous concrete columns with flared tops all over the place. This reminds me of the early 70's when the city was rebuilding the infamous Brucker traffic circle in thre Bronx (concrete columns everwhere).
I even saw at least one guideway portion straddled between two columns. Since I was driving my car, I couldn't really view everything. Perhaps if you want to check it out, maybe ride a TA bus that circumvents the terminals. Get ready for a one seat ride to Jamaica station !
Bill Newkirk
I'm going to be going to JFK on the 16th - after dark, unfortunately - and returning on the 24th just as the sun comes up. Hopefully I'll be able to get a good view from the terminal bus to Howard Beach.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I recently rode the B15 out to JFK. I did see the provisions and what appeared to be track rail piled up on top of each other. The rails were rusted. Also noticed a big ad for AIRTRAIN on the roadway......
3TM
I was over by Terminal 7 two weeks ago and it looked like they had poured part of the station for that location.
-- Kirk
I took the A train to Howard Beach yesterday and road the shuttle bus to the terminals. It looks loike they are building the Airtrain line from the subway end toward the terminals. The guideway is in place in the parking lot and, it seems, most of the way to the terminal area. There is some guideway in place in the terminal area also, but mostly it's just the columns there.
I found it very interesting that they appear to be pouring the columns in place, but the guideway seems to be prefab sections that are lowered into place on top of the columns by crane.
One thing especially puzzles me: The end of the guideway (or as much as has been built so far) at the subway station is elevated. Does anyone know what the plan is for finishing this off? Is there going to be a station in the parking lot, with people descending to the surface and then entering the subway or will the Airtrain guideway be extended over the subway ROW and a station be built on a level with the existing subway station cross over? Or will the guideway swing over the subway station and ramp down to the level of the subway ROW so that there can be cross-platform transfers? Or some other arangement?
The airtrain appears to termiate at it elavated location with a station/platform extending over the A ROW and ramp down. There is to be a stop at Lefferts Blvd. amidst the long term parking area, then it goes to grade on a single trackto a station at Federal Circle and over Van Wyck Expway. Down to grade again for a run to the terminal area, under a taxiway , up and diverging to what appears to be to loops around a divided (2) sections terminal area. Footing is in place on both sides, North and south of belt Pkway with rebar peddestals waiting to pour concret. It's going very fast in my humble opinion.
I wonder if it could support a set of hippos?
I would think that the Port Auth will keep the Long Term Parking Lot piece on the airport property as much as possible.
The line to Jamaica will take a different route, up the Van Wyke, and may someday be sold to the TA, at least we can hope for that.
A chart I recently saw in a "trade" maganine shows the lines splitting after the Federal Circle station.
BTW, Anyone want to take this as a FAQ assignment for Dave ?
Mr t__:^)
The worst of it is that motorists will be able to take the airtrain for free from the long-term parking lots, whereas subway riders will have to pay $5 from the Howard Beach station to the terminals. Do you think someone will knock a hole in the fence between the subway station and the parking lots?
...motorists will be able to take the airtrain for free from the long-term parking lots, whereas subway riders will have to pay $5...
The point for Airtrain was to serve the parking lot patrons. The projected use figures in the EIS demonstrate this. The link to the subway stations was a red herring to divert attention to the fact that this "rail" project will increase motor traffic.
Five dollars? But the shuttle bus is free? So they are going to take away the bus and have subway riders pay $5?
Yes. Disgusting, isn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How much does a pair of wire cutters cost?
(Airtrain will be free from parking lots, $5.00 from A train)
This is really an outrage. The Airtrain is being paid for by landing fees and a passenger facility surcharge that ALL passengers pay, including those riding the subway. How could they possibly justify this?
THEY don't want THOSE people to use it, as they remember all THOSE people from Howard Beach that use to use the JFK Express. THEY fixed them by killing that train :-(
Mr t
Five years and five thousand dollars, if used like I think you're suggesting :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wasn't suggesting anything. I was just wondering how long it will take before the fence starts disappearing, a little piece at a time.
Are you seriously suggesting that more people will fly because of the airtrain link to the parking lot? Or do you think that the Airtrain will cause people to switch from the subway or city bus to their cars for trips through JFK?
Are you seriously suggesting that more people will fly because of the airtrain link to the parking lot? Or do you think that the Airtrain will cause people to switch from the subway or city bus to their cars for trips through JFK?
The most important stops are the employee and long term parking lots. These lots are distant from the terminal areas. The Airtrain will make them convenient and encourage more automobile use. The immediate losers will be car pooling for the employees and the airport limo services for the passengers.
I see your point about the limos. Some people who own cars may be taking limos and leaving their cars at home because of the inconvenience of getting from the parking to the terminals. I have my doubts about the employee angle. I think that most car pooling is motivated by money, not convenience.
Whenever I've taken a limo to the airport, it is due to the high cost of parking at JFK and LGA.
-- Kirk
What about trips in the other direction?
Has anyone heard any news about the lawsuit that was brought to stop the use of the Van Wycke route to Jamaica Station? Has any work actually been done Norht of the point where the two routes diverge?
[Has any work actually been done Norht of the point where the two routes diverge?]
As far as I know that phase of the project hasn't been funded yet.
Mr t__:^)
So the Rockaway line fan club still has a chance.
Actually, it is being built from the CTA to LT parking area and the subway station. The PA has a map on their web site. If you write them, they have an interesting information package that includes drawings of the proposed stations.
A Question:
Legally, does holding train doors open constitute vandalism? After all, it does do damage to the door mechanism (regardless of whether such damage is the actual motivation).
If it IS vandalism, why is it never prosecuted as such?
If it IS vandalism, why is it never prosecuted as such?
probably for the same reason that a conductor "striking" a passenger by closing a door on them is never prosecuted for assult and battery.
Do you consider it assault and battery when the passenger jumps into the train after the doors have started the closing mode and the passenger gets struck by the closing doors?
Wouldn't that be up to a judge and jury to decide? :-)
BTW why do you suppose that the MTA insists that it be exempt from local health and fire regulations - to provide better service? :-)
Don't give me that crap. I have been a NYCT conductor and motorman for over 20 years. I see people put their body parts into subway car doors to prevent them from closing countless times daily. And if you ever ride the subway, if you are honest, you will admit you see it too. Just last Friday at Jamaica Center E line, some stupid female put her left ankle into a closing door. The door closed around her ankle. Here she is standing with one foot on the platform like an ostrich, with the other having the door rubber wrapped around it. I happened to be walking on the platform and she smiled at me. I told he that she wouldn't be smiling if the train started to move. The conductor had to reopen the doors, only when he tried to close down again, others were holding doors in other cars. Another late train BEFORE the wheels ever turned! Are we supposed put survailance cameras at every door operator. Maybe, because 99.9% of the time it will prove the passenger at fault by virtue of his own negligence and not that of the TA. As for your second question, I am not an MTA bureaucrat, I don't think they should be exempt. You raise an issue which has nothing to do with the first one.
Let me give you a serious answer, as rush hour observer from the mid and late 1950's to the present. Rush hour service has decreased 32% based on train frequency and length alone. Available door width has decreased 20% per unit car length. These are large numbers, especially since demand has remained constant.
The riding public has been brutalized by these conditions. They are reacting like caged animals. Civility requires more service than NYCT is willing to provide.
Many crowding conditions are dangerous. An operator of any building would be in violation of the fire code, if he were to permit the loading present in subway cars and in platforms. The MTA realized this and got itself exempted from such impediments.
My view is that the MTA/NYCT management are as culpable as the passengers whose conduct you decry.
To repeat:
Any train that holds for every last passenger (at ALL times, at ALL costs) is a train that goes nowhere (at ALL).
A two-minute headway is already difficult to maintain; by holding for every last passenger, you'd actually punish everyone already on board the train in question (and following trains) for the benefit of one straggler. That's not good social economics: the total cost to society (delay to 2,000+ people) outweighs the benefit (one person avoids a 2-minute wait).
At some point, the doors must be allowed to close and the train must be allowed to move.
...A two-minute headway is already difficult to maintain...
Name a single line that is running a 2-minute headway or 30 tph. Most are running 25 tph (6) or 27 (E+F). The best is the Flushing Line (7) with 29 tph. In the not so distant past: 30 tph was the norm; with 33 tph on the E+F and 36 tph on the 7.
Perhaps, if they really did run 2-minute headways - with no reduction on the number of cars per train - they would find it easier to maintain the schedules.
Precisely. Thirty trains per hour WAS the norm, until
passengers began insisting that every train was the last
train that would ever move, and thus had to hold it so
that it would never move.
Precisely. Thirty trains per hour WAS the norm, until passengers began insisting that every train was the last train that would ever move, and thus had to hold it so that it would never move.
This is a chicken and egg question. Did the TA reduce the number of TPH and thereby create a dwell time problem or did the passengers increase dwell time and thereby reduce the number of TPH?
Here are some actions that the passengers did not take. Reduce the length of trains on the E&F by 9%. Design 75' cars that require 20% more loading time due to inadequate door space. Design cars that have less usable interior space for passengers to create crush loading conditions. Increase the length of stations but not increase the entrance/exit facilities and thereby create congestion at the station platforms. Lengthen routes so that there is reduced service in the midtown and downtown.
If passenger behavior were to change overnight, there is not enough equipment to run 30 tph. What about the equipment that remains? Some actions that the passengers have not taken have been to reduce availability through linked cars. Require more trains for a given run by increasing run time by reducing acceleration/braking rates and by reducing the average speed.
It is not at all clear in my mind which came first and who the vandals are.
[This is a chicken and egg question. Did the TA reduce the number of TPH and thereby create a dwell time problem or did the passengers increase dwell time and thereby reduce the number of TPH?]
As is so often the case, I suspect it's six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
Can't wait to see how many trains are delayed when the R142 enter service with their auto-rebound doors. 3 times it tries to close, after that, it alerts the conductor, and the train is delayed. This is what I gathered from the R142 coverage on Transit Transit.
-Hank
The TA will eliminate that feature as soon as they evaluate a big dip in on time performance, not to mention the redbirds will always catch up to their R142 leader during the transitional period because of this. When the R44's came out on the F with their 3-5 second delay between the time the conductor pushed the closing buttons and the time the doors acually closed, their R40 followers always caught up.
I think for starters, a funciton for the conductor that only opens doors that aren't closed would help. That way, you could re-open and close the doors that were being held without opening up chances on the rest of the section for more people to block the doors. Replacing the fault lights with rotating, flashing lights would help draw attention to the offenders.
Second, prepare a 15 minute video on the evils of holding the doors. Randomly arrest people who are doing it and have the video play repeatedly while they wait to be booked.
Holding Doors is a $100 doller fine if a cop pushes the issue.
Whatever happened to "courtesy" in this place.
The REAL question is this:
Do the 2,000 people who are already on a train (and were willing to wait for it) really "owe" courtesy to one person with a superiority complex, especially when the following train's headlights are clearly visible?
Even a 30-second hold can destroy a two-minute headway, and a train that HOLDS FOR EVERY LAST PERSON (at all times, at all costs) is a train that DOES NOT MOVE (at all).
(Whatever happened to courtesy)
Back in the 1980s, someone would run down, grab the doors, and wait while three of four friends ambled down the stairs. Trains were taken out of service due to door motor burnouts all the time.
My observation is that this type of behavior, and door problems, are way, way down. You hardly ever see it. Half the time the conductor is yelling release the doors, the problem is with the system, not with someone holding the doors.
Recall I switch around and ride different lines in Brooklyn. I say things are better. Anyone have different experiences?
The "hold the train while my friend decides how much money to put on his MetroCard" mentality is alive and well on Queens Blvd., especially at Roosevelt Avenue and Union Turnpike (tourists connecting from the airports).
Door holding should be permanently classified as a Stupid Human Trick.
Along with the millions of other Stupid Human Tricks.
Like this one:
Some guy was talking on a pay phone while a train was preparing to leave. He sticks his foot in the door opening, while the phone cord is taut, and this guy is preparing to keep the doors from closing while finishing the conversation. Pretty dumb, eh?
Not only do people hold the doors getting ON a train, now they're holding them getting OFF as they finish their conversation with their friend who's staying on.
I'd like to yell something along the lines of "Why don't you call each other later and let the train go?", but I value my life.
I've seen passengers who ask other passengers to let go of the doors, move into the car, remove their packages from seats when there are standees, etc. receive much verbal- and even physical- abuse from the perpetrator.
If we all spoke our minds to everyone who irritated us on the trains, there'd be no one left alive to ride them!
Door-motor burnouts are down. Holding the doors for friends is still a happening thing. But the worst ones are:
A - the parents who send their little kids to stand in the door, while they (the parents) slowly climb to the platform.
B - the parents who run for the train and stand in the doors while their toddler toddles up the stairs to the platform.
IMHO, both cases should be prosecuted as child endangerment and abandonment. Maybe then it would stop.
Got one better: the parent who holds the door with the kid in the stroller!
-Hank
No offense to all you anti-door holders but if I'm on a train by the door and see someone running for it yelling "hold the door" I WILL hold the door for them. And if its a pretty girl then I DEFINITELY WILL. That's common courtesy and good manners.
Everyone's complaining about door holders but a few months ago there was a long thread here complaining about conductors closing doors on people.
Then YOU WILL be subject to arrest, fine, and/or ejection from the system. Wouldn't look good on a police officer's record, would it, Sergeant? :-)
David
What is the offical policy of the NYCTA about Baby carriages and large
strollers?
On monday , this week, three adults two carriages and two infants (under age 2yrs.) ENTERED 5TH Ave Station. the Madison end, tied up the down escalator,the down lower platform stairs, then took up a large area on the Queens bound "F".
Are there certain times or restrictions similar to bus rules and reg's?
[What is the offical policy of the NYCTA about Baby carriages and large strollers?
On monday , this week, three adults two carriages and two infants (under age 2yrs.) ENTERED 5TH Ave Station. the Madison end, tied up the down escalator,the down lower platform stairs, then took up a large area on the Queens bound "F". Are there certain times or restrictions similar to bus rules and reg's?]
Open strollers used to be prohibited on trains and in stations, but the rule was changed a while back at the urging of Ruth Messenger (we can't inconvenience all those mommies on the Upper West Side, can we?) It would be interesting to see whether open strollers could still run afoul of the general prohibition on large bulky objects.
You are totally correct that strollers can be a royal pain. In some ways, they're worse than bicycles - one person can easily carry a bicycle up and down stairs, while a stroller is generally a two-person job.
You mean all those nannies, right?
-Hank
Go ahead! Then after you decide to let go because the conductor had to reopen, someone else holds a door for someone else and so on. Before you know it, another late train because as that tain gets later and later, it begins to pick up the passengers who should be on the next train. I see it on the E ALL the time and it is starting to wear me out! 4 to 5 minute headway during the rush, 7 1/2 minutes middays. Contrary to popular belief, every main line route operates more than one train!
Door holding isn't vandalism, it is an added value for the soap hounds who work here. Time and a half is a great time to hold the doors for the whole family. We get overtime and the train gets overcrowded and runs even later. Meanwhile, the underutilized follower sits behind red signals while a conductor has to reopen and close doors several times. Passengers pay by riding an inefficient service to support the people who get paid to attempt to deliver fast safe service. Some of us want to go home too. Don't hold the train doors unless you have a rabbi downtown who will protect you from the undercovers out there. They are writing tickets and yanked one from my train at Franklin Av last week.
BTW, I won't call the cops, I am one of the soap hounds :-)
Show me the money!
It is only good for the soap hounds when it is on your last half trip. Other than that, a late arrival due to door holding or any other reason takes away minutes from your recovery time in between trips and time from your lunch period.
If somebody is holding the doors in my operating car, I open the cab door or window and tell them to let the door close.
They even try to do it on streetcars. On the 15 line (Baltimore), somebody (male or female) would bang on the doors, just as the light turned green and I started to take power. I would refuse to stop, as I wanted to make the light, and my follower was 2 minutes behind me. Rush hours on the 8 line were almost as bad. 34 years later, they still do it to buses.
Normally What I do at those stops where the Crowd by the First Car is Holding Doors Like 51 Street I just lean on the horn intil they let go. I do use the Police Horn Signal code to hopefully attract a cop that Never comes. The only justice is the Door Holder gets a Hear ach. I also call Control about the delay and they normally tell me to blow for Police anyway. Sometimes I get lucky and Grand Central tells me after 59 Street make your next stop 86 Street.
It may be "common courtesy and good manners" to hold the door for ONE person, but very, very, VERY RUDE to the 2,000+ people whom you are deliberately delaying. Think about that one for a minute, or an hour.
Again: The 2,000 delayed passengers do not "OWE" a debt of any kind to some straggler who happens to be an attractive woman, nor would they "owe" the same debt to an ugly man like me. "The needs of the (very) many outweigh the needs of the few, or of the one."
Besides, there's probably ANOTHER pretty girl already on the train, whom you're dissing by holding the train. How would you answer to her?
I think that there us a way that we can have our door and hold it too. Why don't they work things like on real commuter rail or Amtrak where the conductor holds 1 or 2 doors open untill the train clears the platform. The subway doors should be hels open until the train reaches a certain speed, at which point they would close. Or the conductor could hold the closest to his position open until he felt the train was moving too fast. This would give motovated people (who really need to catch THIS train) the oppurtunity to run for it as is the case on commuter rail. It would also give the commuters a chance to act out heroic railroad scenes from such movies as Dr.Zhivago. Keep in mind that I am serious about this. I am somewhat of a social Darwinist, who supports reward for personal initiative
As an aside, my friend told me how kids don't even need an open door. He saw 2 mental giants board a departing NJT commuter train by leaping through the 2'x2' door windows that had been left open. One of the kids' feet were dangling outside the train for a considerable distance. The conductor yelled at them for aboot 5 min straight.
Also the best way to combat unauthorized door holdings is a little devise that costs about 5$. In fact I'll bet that each of you has one in your place of residence. If you still don't know what I'm talking about go look in your toaster.
As you all know a toaster objects violently when it wants to pop up and is forceably held down. By installing one of these buzzers in a subway door, if someone trys to hold the door, it will make an incredible. First of all, the train crew, nearby police and everyone else on the train and platform will know that a door holding incident is taking place. Because humans tend to look toward loud noises, the door holder will be instantly recoginzable. Meanwhile the door holder will be hit by a wave of self-consiousness. He will also be hit by the stares and abusive words of the people around him, as well as trash, small missiles or blunt objects. If criminals like to work in the dark, shine a light on them.
I can see the multi-million dollar settlements now from this idea. "They shouldn't have left tohe door on the moving train open if they didn't mean for me to make a flying grab at it. And the next train should have stopped before it severed my legs. The TA was grossly negligent!"
-Hank
I was just browsing eBay and found this item - it is a 21¢ ticket from 1927 on the NYW&B. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=276347648
Note: I am in no way associated with the seller of this item - indeed, I've never done business with them as far as I can recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone here on the Redbirds until 2002 thread said that on the MTA page it says how long the R62s will last. Where did they find that?
Thanks in advance.
How are the R-142 test trains doing and how are the results of the extensive training going?How many test trains are now running?When will they go into service?
FOR THE LAST TIME!!!
After the pilot trains go without problems for 30 days, they will be tested in revenue service. One problem, the clock is turned back.
Sort of...
The IN-SERVICE test is for 30 consecutive days without a problem. They won't go into the IN-SERVICE test until they've been tested thoroughly without passengers and enough personnel (both operating and maintenance) have been qualified on them.
David
Hey buddy this is the last time about R-142 & right now they are testing until sometime May or June than they go on the road for 30 days without no problem. IF they pass it than they go service & they will deliever about 30 or 30 cars per months.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: THIS IS THE LAST TIME & WE ALREADY TOLD EVERYBODY MANY TIME SO SIT BACK & RELAX.
If any one wanna to see R142??? well go to Dyre Av Line & they testing R142 & 142A between 10am to before 3pm. I took couple pictures today & boy they are Fantastic Trains.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Is this every day? between 10-3? Will it happen Thursday?
Is this every day? between 10-3? Will it happen Thursday? Also, were u able to ride one?
No, no. These are only the test trains. They haven't actually carried passengers yet.
-Stef
I saw the Kawasaki test train a couple of days ago. The set paused momentarily at Pelham Pkwy. When it was time to go, you could hear the T/O yell, "Stand Clear of the Train", and off the train went towards Dyre Av. It breezed out of the station fast. For a track that is supposed to be bad, Track Y3 performed rather well with the Test Train on it. I can't help but wonder if the track could be equipped to handle revenue trains should the need for an emergency reroute arise?
-Stef
Pelham Parkway is the pickup/dropoff point for employees who are riding the track-test train.
There are many Subtalkers. Each day many of these talkers go down into the ground and use the NYC Subway (or other transit system). Using complicated statistical models I have concluded that one subtalker will eventually meet another subtalker on the subway (where else?) The problem lies in the fact that there is no way to identify another subtalker with out asking everyone you see. Now I know that we can ID Heypaul by his white straight jacket, Pgitty by his comedy act and Pigs by his smell, but resorting to the old ID methods of yelling Niagra Falls or waving around the hey to the foodlocker might cause disruptions or injury to innoscent SubRiders. Not to mention that heypaul could escape, Pigs could take a bath and start walking on 2 legs (4 legs good, 2 legs better) and Pgitty could get the tar beat our of him.
What we need here at SubTalk is a secret sign. Something that would go un-noticed by the SubRider, but would be instantly recognizable to the SubTalker. Some of my thoughts include using a marker to write a large S on the back of the left hand or maybe writing S or ST on your beverage cup. A simple sign/counter sign for final confirmation could include "Excuse me, do you know how to get to the S train?" to which the SubTalker would reply, "You take the T train."
If enough transit professionals get on the board, SubTalk could become a real secret society with real secret society perks. Here is a sample dialogue:
"Excuse me Mr. T/O is this train out of service?"
"Yes"
::Makes sign of the S:: "Could we talk about it?"
"Maybe."
"Well heypaul sent me to look for the key and I need to get to -----."
"Hop on board."
All I can say is that when I come to NYC I'll write an S on my hand so if you see me, feel free to strike up a conversation.
why not paste a token on your forehead???
that says plenty.
(Why not tape a token on your forehead)
Not unversal enough. It would only work for the Subtalk luddite wing.
How about "Those 68s sure are slow" response "Nope the problem is the grade timers."
I like the "S" on the hand
better than the timer thingie
Perhaps a CIA style sign/countersign:
Sign:"The swift red bird".
Countersign:"Flies over the silver hippo" :)
Or, if you're ever on a BMT line and you suspect the guy sitting next to you is a subtalk regular, simply refer to the line by it's former number. So if you're on the J train, ask this question:
"Excuse me sir, is this the #15 to Jamaica?"
If the person doesn't give you a crazed look, he's gotta be a subtalker.
That seems to be the best way to go. But suppose you ask that of a woman, what then? She could think most anything from an attempted pickup to sexual harassment. And by the way, are there any women on our website beside BX55? I don't seem to know of any.
There are, Fred - I know of at least two more, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>If the person doesn't give you a crazed look, he's gotta be a subtalker.<<
Or someone who is totally numb from riding the J train.
Or if he says, "I thought the R-16s were gone by now."-)
Do we get to use the "Cone of Silence"?
I had read of a device recently in USA TODAY called GAYDAR , marketed to gay people, it is a device which emits radio waves which are picked up by any other GAYDAR units within 30 feet, a tone alerts the user that another GAYDAR user is nearby., A similar device on a different frequency may find application here.
Are you serious?
I heard about it the other day on the radio. No, thanks.
Interesting,but a bit too high tech for me. On the serious side,a lapel pin or button might be more practical. IIRC,there was a proposal for baseball caps some time ago. Unfortunately, nothing came of it.
Or maybe a subtalker ribbon, to clip on, like all the other ribbon they have out, or did (i havent seen a AIDS ribbon for a while)
This is NYC. Someone would probably just steal it off the forehead
>>This is NYC. Someone would probably just
>> steal it off the forehead..
Use glue.. ya can't take the whole forehead!
If this world let's us have tattoos on our ...
and ....s then who's to say we can't glue tokens
to our foreheads the way the redbirds have the
route numbers glued (and rolled) on theirs??
Baseball hat on straight,two red rubber bands on left wrist,pocket protector,train spotter notebook,one sock with elastic shot to hell and rolled down,can or spray window cleaner and blue paper towel for railfan window,camera or palmcorder or both. If you confront the mirror image, nod your head three times , slight grin, then you know!
got funpass?
Thanks but no thanks. I prefer to remain... Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The best bet to find fellow subtalkers on the system is to be wherever the R142 is. New cars attract all kinds of railfans. I almost ran into Bill Newkirk at E180th St. last month when he was out looking to take pics of the new R142's.
Just look in the front or back of a train; I'm sure you'll find one there.
Always look for the >>>>RAILFAN WINDOW<<<<
Everytime I see a grown mad leering out the railfan window on a slant R40, I always think to myself..."Is that Wayne?"
Well, compare with this photo of Wayne here:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup, thats him. I saw him pull 2 kids away from the window on a Q train last week.
(just kidding)
If that Q train happened to be blowing past a D train, I can't blame him.-)
Was Wayne the one who switched the sign? AA to Coney Is??
Probably, but you'll have to ask him - I didn't take the picture, it's from the contributors page on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wayne did not switch the sign. I too visit the museum- the signs have their gears removed so they cant be routinely changed- I confess that I have tried to change the signs to no avail!. The picture was taken by Peggy Darlington during one of their all-day photo shoots in the system.
I should've known it was the museum. It was late when I saw the picture and half asleep. I honestly thought it was an old picture of Wayne taken from when the R1-9's were still running. Out the window all you could see were the 1rst 2 letters of the station name on the tile- "CO" . That should have given it away to me-Court St, but silly me thought it was at Columbus Circle!!! Wait, does anyone hear aything????
You and me both. On top of that, those hinged access lids are bolted shut so you can't get inside. That goes for the bulkheads as well. Since I have my own R-1/9 sign box, it's no big deal.
Hey Anon-e-Mouse, post this picture again with the following wav in the background. Its from Hey Paul's tape: http://www.pagetalk.com./play.phtml?u=11050105&b=1
My html skills aren't good enough to do that. The picture is linked from the contributors' page on this site, I didn't take it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's one with the bull & pinion gear sound. Unfortunately its from a low-V, not an R-9. I got it from NYC Transit-BMT Lines who hasn't been posting lately: (Wait till it loads)
Those old timers all moaned and groaned about the same, so it should be close enough. The braking sounds varied. Since I never rode on any prewar IRT equipment, I have no idea what sort of air brake sounds they gave off. The R-1/9s had their trademark "tch-hssss" sound associated with their magnet valves while the BMT standards would go "tchhhhhhhh" just as they came to a full stop.
I wonder if the museum could pipe heypaul's tape on the station platform...
A better one!!!
Here's one with the bull & pinion gear sound.
Unfortunately its from a low-V, not an R-9. I got
it from NYC Transit-BMT Lines who hasn't been
posting lately:src="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/lowv.wav"loop="infinite">
(Wait till it loads)
Is that the recrding Heypaul uses when he's in his R9 cab?
Hey Anon-e-Mouse, post this picture again with the following wav in the background. Its from Hey Paul's tape: http://www.pagetalk.com./play.phtml?u=11050105&b=1
I wonder who set that route sign to AA. Naahhhhh, not Wayne..-)
Wayne also keeps his carspotter's notebook in hand.
Speaking of the TRANSIT PROFESSIONALS, why not a horn signal to compliment the railfan friendly workers that lurk down here looking for HeyPaul? If you put an "S" on your head, we might cut you in half and toss you on the back of a Naporano truck so make sure it is not painted yellow.
I have a question for the board.Is there a reason that the EL passes close to the right field grandstand at Yankee Stadium? Was this done for zoning purposes.Baseball people always make historical references to the "short right field porch".Is the grandstand short for baseball purposes or was it short to compensate for the Woodlawn EL?
Yankee Stadium was laid out on the lot in such a way that it had a "short right field porch" for baseball purposes. Perhaps that explains why the "main" entrance to the stadium (i.e., right behind home plate) is at the opposite corner from 161 & River, where the IRT (and later the IND) station is.
An interesting note -- my father, who lived in the Bronx and spent much of his high school career sneaking out of school early to watch the Yankees play, says that when the Stadium was first built, there wasn't a fence above the right field bleachers, and it was possible to stand on the elevated platform (downtown side) and watch the ball games from there. He also said that he worked as a 'stile boy' at Yankee Stadium as a teen. The stile boys main job was to make sure that as people entered the stadium, the turnstile turned only once so that the counters would be accurate. He got paid 25 cents per game for this, and also got into the park for free to watch the game from about the 3rd inning on. He also says that on occasion Babe Ruth would buy hot dogs for all of the stile boys. (BTW - Dad is still doing well, he'll be 90 in May).
-- Ed Sachs
"...short right field porch for baseball purposes.." NOT exactly true.. Back in 1921,when Jacob Ruppert was looking for a site for the Stadium, he specifically chose that location moree for spite purposes that for anything else. He wanted to make sure that the new, maginificent Yankee ballpark was directly across from the Polo Grounds, so the Giants could see the crowds he was drawing..(They had told him to take a hike,son..) In those days, they had to lay out ballparks, so that the setting sun in the afternoon wouldn't be in the batters eyes (games started at 3 PM in those days..) So almost all older ballparks are laid out with home plate facing east. (This is also where the term 'southpaw' comes from, as the pitchers left arm would be on the southern side...) So when they were planning Yankee Stadium, the only way to fit the huge place was in the current configuration. [Also, the fact that YS was on a subway line that went directly down to Wall St didnt hurt at all....Yankee fans in those days tended to be conservative business types; while Giant fans was the show-biz crowd of the day...]
Now as far as being able to see into the park from the platform at 161 St- When the Stadium was built, the three tiered part of the stadium only went around to about section 30 or so, the rest of it being built in the 30's. But you could still see into the park from the platform until about the early 50's when advertising billboards went up.* There are pictures extant which show trains actually stopped to watch Lou Gehrig Day back in '39. And another famous shot shows Joe DiMaggio looking forlorn at the reconstruction of the Stadium from the platform there in 1974......probably one of the few times Joe D was EVER on a subway platform in his life...talk and ask your dad about this....
*actually, more like extended up....
Oddly enough, when HOK was designing Oriole Park, the home plate faces EAST, even though day games are a weekend only thing. At the old park (Memorial Stadium) home plate faced NORTH. (Memorial is on West 33rd Street, on the North side. It is now vacant, crumbling, and due to be raised eventually.
Memorial was served by streetcars until 1956, You can still ride a streetcar (aka LRV) to Oriole Park, just like you could do in 1920.
Come to think of it, most ballparks I know of have home plate oriented so the field is to the northeast. It's tat way at Anaheim Stadium and Dodger Stadium in California. Haven't been in the new park in San Francisco so I don't know which way that one is. And I seem to remember Fenway Park in boston being situated the same way.
(And funny thin, the old Kingdome in Seattle was, too, even though it was covered!)
Pac Bell Park in San Francisco faces east, it should have a view of the Oakland skyline.
Home plate at OPACY faces northeast, not east...the batter is looking directly at 250 West Pratt Street. Also, Memorial Stadium is on East 33rd Street. For one of the most depressing scenes you could imagine, ride the #36 bus behind the stadium, on East 36th Street. The heavily overgrown field will bring tears to your eyes.
Lou: I can tell by your message that you are a real baseball fan. Which team do you root for and can you envision a subway series this year between the Yankees and Mets? Boy that would be one hell of a hoot for the Big Apple, but I can tell you the whole country would be jumping over such an event.
Been a big time Yankee fan since 1975 (even thru the dog days of the 80s!)..was a Met fan when I was a kid, my aunt lived in Jackson Hgts (75th st),so going to Met games was easier... I dunno about that subway Series stuff ...lot of decent teams in the NL this year...
There were too many messages to read on this one, so someone may have already mentioned this. When the stadium was remodeled (I believe under the supervision of George), it was specificaly decided NOT to let any poor shlubs actually get a few free minutes of Yankee baseball, and the station walls were erected in such a way as to prevent this "theft" of a ballgame.
This sort of conversation needs to move to Off SubTalk. You have been invited.
I have signed up and got my password, but when I searched for off sub talk, they couldn't find it. What is the designation for it. Let me know as soon as possible because I'm anxious to get on.
Actually, you could still see a piece of right field from the south end of the downtown platform until the reconstruction of the Stadium which began after the 1972 season. Interestingly, you still sometimes see people on top of the Bronx County Courthouse which must be 1000 feet away.
I sent you something in the e-mail about it, although I took Off SubTalk kind of offline. It's still there and you could try to join, but I don't think it will get a following.
Lou: I can tell by your message that you are a real baseball fan. Which team do you root for and can you envision a subway series this year between the Yankees and Mets? Boy that would be one hell of a hoot for the Big Apple, but I can tell you the whole country would be jumping over such an event. A freeway series out here between the Dodgers and Angels would do little to arouse such excitement.
Oh yeah-almost forgot....originally YS was supposed to be tripled decked all the way around, but it was determined that the shadows would be too great (pre-lighted ballparks..), so that idea was scrapped. There is a pretty neat 'biography' of YS that was put out a few years back- your local library might have it,or be able to get it....
03/07/2000
I seen a picture taken in the 20's when what is now Yankee Stadium was a vast open lot. So this proves that the "el" predated the stadium. However if it were the other way around, the 161st St. "el" station would probably be an express station like Willtes Point on the #7 Flushing line. That may answer any questions why 161st St is a local stop.
Bill Newkirk
Willets Point was a local stop. It was converted into an express stop for the 1939 Worlds Fair. Shea Statium was built between 1962 and 1964.
Wasn't Willet's Point the terminal stop for the 2nd Av el cars, since wooden cars couldn't go to Main Street?
Wasn't Willet's Point the terminal stop for the 2nd Av el cars, since wooden cars couldn't go to Main Street?
Willets Point was the terminus for the 2nd Ave El. Wooden BMT gate cars terminated at Main St.
I don't know if it's still there today, but I remember that you could see remnants of the original side platforms east of the current station. The current station is a block or two west of the original Willets Pt. station, moved when it was re-built for the 1939-40 Worlds Fair. The north and center tracks are still in their original location; the south track (eastbound local) was moved to allow a (very wide) island platform between it and the center track.
-- Ed SAchs
I've seen the Manhattan-bound platform of this station. I think that there is at least 200 feet (approximately 5 IRT car lengths) of "extra" platform beyond the fence that is on that platform (it seperates the revenue service platorm and the extra platform.). On that section, there is what looks like an exit to 126th Street, Roosevelt Av & Willets Point Blvd. (The distance is based on two signals on that platform.) I think that that is part of the original platform.
I can't vouch for the exact distance, but you are correct, that is part of the original platform. The staircase is intact; since it is fully enclosed, it is used as a storage area. When I was in there about a year-and-a-half ago it was full of paint.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ground was broken for Shea Stadium in 1961, I believe. It was originally supposed to be ready in time for the 1963 season, but delays pushed the opening back one year, and the Mets wound up playing in the Polo Grounds for two years instead of one. Supposedly, the outfield fences were still being painted when the Mets played their first game at Shea on April 17, 1964.
Supposedly, the outfield fences were still being painted when the Mets played their first game at Shea on April 17, 1964.
I was at the first Shea Stadium game. The fences were painted. It was the bathrooms that did not work. :-)
Now it's time to envision riding to Willets Point station and disembarking for the third game of the 2000 World Series between our beloved Mets and whoever is unforl;tunate enough to have to play them. Come on Valentine, bring these guys home first. Yankees? They might be getting a mite old, but they would make a good victim.
Good for your dad. Is he still a Yankee fan or has he seen the light and become a Mets fan? Just kidding. Here's hoping your dad get to 100 and beyond.
Dad is still a Yankee Fan, even through moving to Brooklyn in 1950, and moving out to the Chicago area in 1997.
-- Ed Sachs
I have a Forgotten Fan posting me claiming that trolley tracks ran on Rockaway Parkway, and that the tracks in the ROW between 95th and 96th were affiliated with the LIRR, at least at some time. Is he right?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think it was the LIRR per se, but the private railroad that ran the service from Atlantic Avenue/Van Sinderen down to Canarsie Pier. It later became part of the BRT and then reverted to NYCT after 1940.
Wayne
There was a trolley line on Rockaway Parkway, in addition to the private-of-way tracks which were originally part of the Canarsie railroad.
Probably the reason for the confusion was that after about 1920, El and Subway trains terminated at Rockaway Parkway and a shuttle service operated between there and the Canarsie terminal. Originally, El cars (equipped with trolley poles and trap stairs for the low-level platforms) were used for the shuttle service, but later on trolley cars were substituted. This was in addition to a trolley line which ran on Rockaway Parkway.
The shuttle service lasted until about 1950 when it was replaced by bus service along Rockaway Parkway.
-- Ed Sachs
Just yesterday I was looking at a picture of a Canarsie Shuttle trolley in the TMNY archives. Was the Canarsie Shuttle operated by B&QT?
Ed....The Canarsie Shuttle was discontinued in late 1942 while the Rockaway Pky line went under in April, 1951.
Carl M.
NO.
The problem is: some old (pre-1898) maps of Brooklyn erroneously credit the Canarsie ROW as being owend by the LIRR.
Yes, trolleys ran both down Rockaway Pkwy AND between 95th and 96th Streets.
Doug aka BMTman
That seems to be the definitive answer...
03/07/2000
I believe one of the names of this railroad was the East New York, Ca
narsie and Rockaway Beach. The long out of print book by William Fausser should clear up questions about this line. Unfortunately the book is now where to be found, unless you get lucky.
Bill Newkirk
I thought I heard on the radio that there was a fire at the Kew Gardens yard today.
I heard it was a brush fire off the GCP in that area.
That's right - I saw it when I was entering the Eastbound LIE from the Eastbound Grand Central. It appeared to be a brush fire.
There were brush fires on Friday and Sunday. Sundays was very big. I don't know if they are natural or arson
I've lived in the area for many years. These brush fires are
always man-made. Once there was a guy who just liked setting
them, finally someone else in the park saw him running from the
scene and he was arrested. The paintballers also like to use
the park as their battlefield and they aren't always too careful
with their cigarette (or other similar substances) butts.
There was a thread a while back about movable bridges in NYC. Well, NYCDOT has put together some pages on all the currently operating movable bridges operated by the city. They look ok, and they lack some info, and there are numerous grammatical and spelling errors, but it's an interesting section.
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/html/bridges/index.html
-Hank
-
According to the Guardian on Saturday (UK reputable newspaper) the London Underground carried more passengers last year than at any time since records began (1934). On the other hand, the network is much larger now than before (Metropolitan Line country branches to the far NW of London excluded). For national railways however, the figures are far more impressive: More passengers than for any year since 1947, on a much smaller network now than then. Don't ask me why, travelling by train in the UK is pretty miserable at the moment.
Greetings all. This show premieres tonight at 8:00 and 11:00 pm. A section of the program will focus on the 63rd st extension. More information can be found on their website.
http://www.discovery.com/stories/technology/buildings/brdg_tunein.html
Anyone plan on taping it for those of us who are cable deprived?
--Mark
Thanks Paul ... I caught the 8 PM viewing, most was various ways that tunnels have been dug, e.g. blast, "mucking", drilling machine, etc.
but towards the end was some footage on 63rd Street dig and on the WMATA. The latter looked like filler as it didn't have too much to do with tunneling, e.g. interview with black/female T/O and how she liked her job ... she said she always wanted to be a T/O ever since she rode roller coasters as a child ... hum is that the kind of driver she is ?
Mr t__:^)
She is a railfan that gets paid to do it , but was afraid to publicly admit it. Go girl!
I know that the WMATA footage was probably filler, but I thought it was very neat nonetheless.
It had good shots of the trains, operating controls, stations, tunnels, railyards and maintenance crews. What more can you ask for? It had close ups of the doors (my favorite part of the train, to be honest). In the area of sounds, you could here all of sounds that characterize Metro: the "doors closing" announcement and chime, the sound of the train gliding into the station, the "woooosh..." of the brakes when the train stopped. They even had the most recognizable sound of all--the high-pitched whine of a departing train. All of this, combined with the T/O interview, made for a very interesting segment, even if it was a filler.
I wonder if that segment was written/produced/directed by a railfan? It seemed to place a large interest in the trains, much more so than the segment on the 63 St connector.
Very cool. :-)
Brandon Bostian
I think the seating was interesting, and the cars as well .
does anyone have more info on the seating, door and physical
attributes of these fine looking cars . and what stress are the put
under during rush or crush hour?
Sounds like one of the ones I rode with last month!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of the 63rd Street thing, I saw a two track line being dug out under the present IND 4 track ROW...I would like to know where the new 63rd Street twin track line rises up and merges with the present IND 4 track ROW...
The way I see the line up, the Crosstown IND (GG) will still have access to the Queens Blvd IND (E, F, GG, R)...so why are they gonna turn the GGs at Court Square?
What's gonna be the line up once the 63rd thing goes online? Q trains to 179? And weekend B trains to 179?? The Manhattan Bridge South Side will still be out when 63rd Street comes online, so forget about Broadway Q thru-Express service from Queens Blvd into 63rd, into Broadway BMT, to South Manhattan Bridge...
The G is stopping at Court Square because running five lines on Queens Blvd. would not be practical, unless you cut back the number of trains currently on the other lines, or limited the number to be used on the new 63rd St. line.
Right now, no one knows exactly what the lineup is going to be. It would seem to make the most sense to run the 63rd St. line as the G's replacement between 36th St. and Continental Ave. Until the Manny B gets fixed, you would expect the Q to take the G's place, but the MTA could decide to implement the talked-about V train service when the line opens.
Assuming, of course, they have enough trains to even start running the 63rd St. service any time soon.
But, the actual physical track link between the Crosstown IND (GG) and the Queens Blvd IND (E, F, GG, R) will remain in place or be severed?
Al
To my Dago Piasan in SI: That's a great handle. I'm a proud Dago from California, but I go under the above mentioned title. Are you Sicilian? And why doesn't Staten Island get their own subway system? I always believed that the 4th Avenue local (R) could have been extended across the river to Staten Island but it never was. Do you have a favorite train like I do? Let me know. I just dig your title.
The physical link will remain in place for emergency reroutes, equipment transfers, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This connection is being used now for Manhattan(To Coney island) F trains which are running via the G line. It is nice to have double service on the G but boy will they gripe when the F leaves the G! Often times if there is a disruption they'll send F trains over the G Line.
PIGPOSAL:
This question has been asked so many times, that I suggest that NOBODY answers. If I had the power, each message posted on this topic will be deleted. Otherwise, I pigpose that EVERYBODY who posts asking when the Manhattan Bridge will re-open, what the 63st plan will be and when the R-142s will be in service, that the poster be eggscommunicated from SubTalk.
Thankfully, you don't have the power. No need to be rude and sarcastic. I am merely asking a question about the future of the IND in Queens. So it has been asked before, however it is the first time *I* have asked it. No one else seems to mind.
If you have seen previous responses, others DO seem to mind. There have been whole threads complaining about this consistent and annoying question. The answer: NOBODY KNOWS! Why don't you stop asking your stupid questions.
Alright Pigs, you've made your point, no need to berate people.
-Dave
Sai it Paul. It looked a lot like my old neighborhood in Queens where I lived until I was 14. I saw some of this excavation last summer during many of my runs when I visited New York. To build a new tunnel on top of an exisiting subway tunnel is fascinating to say the least. And so much of this was being done with muscle and straight down digging. Those guys on the job certainly earn their pay. I wonder how many of those snobby limo liberals of the Upper West Side saw this piece. I doubt if many did. A great show.
I'm about 10 mins by car from the excavation. Alot has changed from the show. Northern Blvd has been covered up and repaved. A building has been built on the westbound side which looks like a ventilation building, but I'm not sure on this. But yes, a great show.
Since the same questions about the R142 keep coming up, perhaps this is a good update on the R142 FAQ page: The first cars have been delivered by kawasaki and Bombardier, and are going under extensive testing by the MTA. As early as mid April, but most likely in May or June, the first revenue test train will begin service.
This train will be in servie nearly 24 hours a day, and is on a 30-day test period. But the clock resets everytime there is a problem with the new trains, so this test could last a bit longer than that. But once it's completed, 30 to 40 cars will arrive each month, and will be found on the 2, 5 and 6 lines; hopefully by mid to late summer.
The redbirds will begin replacement as the R142's come in. However, even once the current order is completed, 470 redbirds will remain in service until the option order comes in in 2002 at the earliest. The #7 line will probably have all redbirds, probably followed by R62's after the option order comes in as well.
Well, hopefully that sums up the recent events. Now I realize not everyone reads the FAQ, but hopefully this will help for those who do, and just maybe help prevent the same question being asked over and over. -Nick
I still think the TA will keep some redbirds past 2002 in case it wants to increase service. I think they've learned their lesson when they retired the R30 too hastily.
Thanks, I updated it.
I'm working on a way to edit the faq online- would people be interested in an "adopt a FAQ entry" type thing?
-Dave
Sure, I'll take one or two.
Another idea Dave -- for select items that repeatedly get asked on SubTalk, would it make sense to have a direct link adjacent to the "Post a New Message" line, such as:
Update on R-142s
The Latest on 63rd Street Routings
Maybe this will cut down on new people asking the same things over and over and over!
I'll gladly write an R16 FAQ, but I dont think anyone would read it...
Maybe not a FAQ entry but it might make a perfect addition to the R16 roster page. What do you think?
Maybe Mr. R10 and Mr. Slant-40 could do the same :-)
-dave
Oh heck, we'll read it, if only for the entertainment value :-)
Seriously, go for it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would. The R-16s provided a colorful chapter in the history of the NYC subway system. They were anything but dull. In a way, I actually regret not having ridden on them more than twice.
Sure would!
--Mark
I'll take the glossary, since I wrote the thing in the first place. For those who want to see it in its current condition, go to home.att.net/~alabianca . Feel free to comment, as well as read my personal rant on How to Ride the Subway.
You might want to add a blurb on marker lights, even though they're not used anymore. For years, that was THE way to identify a train as it pulled into a station.
I actually liked the How to Ride the Subway section. Almost everything there is just plain old common sense.
Dave, This sounds like an excelent way to lighten your load and get a number of us involved with helping maintain this site with current data. I'ld be happy to take a couple of items ... fares, MetroCard flavors come to mind.
Mr t__:^)
No problem, Dave...always happy to help, even if only in small ways. I like Todd's idea of maybe having some links at the top of subtalk that are relevant right now...perhaps subtalk could do an R142 test of its own!! LOL -Nick
In today's "Big Town Chronicles" (page 13) section of the Daily News, there's an interesting article on how our least favorite, BMT-killing former mayor Hylan tried to sell off various parts of Central Park to developers. Hylan was quoted as saying that Central Park was "eyesore, full of jagged hills and shapeless rocks". Despite virulent opposition, he continued his attempts to sell the park off.
This guy was a major fruitcake. How'd he ever get elected?
[Hylan] was a major fruitcake. How'd he ever get elected?
He had the support of William Randolph Hearst and his newspapers. And, despite the fact that he was apparently not a personally flamboyant man, he had a good eye for demagoguery, making the five cent fare and bashing the "traction interests" his hallmark.
His classic Tammany administration followed on the heels of the decent reformer John Purroy Mitchell. Among other things, Mitchell got himself in trouble with the important Irish and German voting blocs in the City by being outspokenly in favor of intervening in World War I on the side of the Allies.
So the 1917 mayoral election was heavily steeped in demagogic appeals, the setting up of unpopular straw men to attack, and appeals to ethnic groups.
Not at all like today.
[So the 1917 mayoral election was heavily steeped in demagogic appeals, the setting up of unpopular straw men to attack, and
appeals to ethnic groups.
Not at all like today.]
I'm assuming that last line was sarcastic :-)
This guy seemed to be even more stubborn and intransigent than Rudy Guiliani. I thought that was impossible.
Well, Rudy didn't get canned by the BRT for reading his law texts while operating an el train either....
At least Hylan actually saw the inside of a train on a regular basis.
Rudy once stated, for the record, that he'd used the subway system only one time in his life (to take his son to Yankee Stadium), and that he was very upset with himself for having sunk so low that one time.
His classic Tammany administration followed on the heels of the decent reformer John Purroy Mitchell.
Mitchel's lasting achievement was to bring Robert Moses into New York City government.
Mitchell got himself in trouble with the important Irish and German voting blocs in the City by being outspokenly in favor of intervening in World War I on the side of the Allies.
Mitchel volunteered for duty, following his defeat in 1917 and got himself killed in action.
Robert Moses may have been one of the most destructive morons in U.S. history but at least Mitchell put his money where his mouth was.
While I agree Moses was a power-obsessed idiot, his contribution to the road and bridge network this city now sports was immense. Unfortunatly, it came at the expense of rapid transit.
You call that a contribution?
Yeah. Try driving around without no Riverside Drive, FDR, LIE, Verazzano Bridge, GCP, etc.
Yeah, I guess you're right, if Moses hadn't designed the facilities which allowed NY City to enter the automotive age along with the rest of America, the City would not have progressed for most of the 20th century.
I assume you prefer the stagnation we have now? At least in the Moses era, things other than welfare offices and public hospitals were built.
Yesterday at about 3:00 pm there was some sort of fire at the Jamiaca yard. I was able to see about 10 fire trucks on the GCP side of the yard. there was some soke coming over the trees but i counldn't tell what was burning. does anyone have any info?
I heard there was a brush fire right outside the yard, but I'm not sure if the fire did any damage to the Jamaica yard's facilities or trains.
Last week, I rode the Q train and it was composed of slant
R-40s. But I was surprised to see R-32s on the Q line also. Are they
being borrowed from other lines? Which other lines had occassional
R-32s running on them?
Which lines did the R-32s run on througout their careers before
they got rebuilt in 1988-1989? Which lines will they go to when the
63rd Street Connection opens? Why did the E, G and R switch the R-32s
and R-46s in the early 1990s? These lines are 24-hour lines, not like
the Q which switched the R-40s and R-68s with the B in November 1997
to allow the R-40s to get some rest when the Q is not running.
The R32s ("Brightliners"), when brand new, ran from 1965 until 1967 on the M, N, Q, T, TT (and occasional QT), that is Brighton Special Express, Sea Beach Express, Brighton Express, West End Express, and West End Local (and occasional Brighton Local). In 1967 most went to the B and D (and AA in non-rush), until the early 1970s. After that, I am not sure how they were assigned.
Well that is a sight for sore eyes. I saw the samne thing during the time we go snowed on back in january 2000. During the fall there were a couple R40m s on the Q as well. I belive that since they are very few on the Q (possibbly only 1) it could be borrowed from another line . The N line maybe
How would an r40m get there
The R40M's were on the Q line during the Willamsburg Bridge Closing I guess was that these cars were part of the J,M,Z lines but because they running on a reduced schedule at the time some of the rush hour M , maybe some J cars were left at the Coney Island yard as well. I don't see any on th Q line since the bridge opened
Coney Island Yard supplies the cars. R32's are in CIYD. Perhaps the Q line needed a train to take the place of a defective one and an R32 was all that was availiable.
I still would like to know why the E, G and R switch
the R-32s and R-46s in the early 1990s. I remember when the E
and F trains were mostly R-46s until the R-32s appeared on the
E line. I'm also surprised to see occassional G and R trains
of R-32s.
Although there are many exeptions, r32s make up the E the r46s make up the f,g,r.
Lately, the R line has more R32's and the E'has more R46's. I wish they'd just leave each line with one car type exclusively.
One of the main reasons, I believe, for the switch of R-46s to R-32s on the "E" line was the additional 8 doors (R-46, 8 cars 32 doors/R-32, 10 cars 40 doors). Thereby decreasing dwell time.
Peace,
Andee
Originally assigned to the BMT Southern Division in 1964-65, the R-32s over the years have run on virtually every IND and BMT route you can think of. Because of their sheer numbers, they were never assigned exclusively to one route at any given time. I personally think of the N whenever the R-32s come to mind, partly because of their close association with that line, and partly because the very first subway train I ever rode on was an N of shiny new R-32s.
Have they run on the j/z line?
Before their GOH, the J yes. the Z no.
If the line is not significant i.e.popular the TA will start useing older cars on that line
I only saw an R-32 on the 'J' once, in September 1984. As far as other Eastern Division lines, I saw once on the 'L' in May 1984, and numerous times on the 'M' in 1978-79.
As other posters have said, the workhorse R-32s have run on all virtually all Division B trackage.
There was a pre-GOH set of R32's running on the J in January and February of 1989. Other than that, I've never seen them on the J. They were on the M line for a while in 1987 (covered in grafitti).
Can anyone verify if the R-32s ever ran on any of the short-lived routes immediately after the Chrystie St. connection opened (JJ, NX, RJ)? I have a hunch that R-27/30s were used exclusively on the RJ and JJ (possibly along with BMT standards) as well as the NX just before it was discontinued. Oh and how about the HH? Were there ever any R-32 sightings there?
All pictures I've seen of both the NX and RJ show them using either R16's or R27 cars. I did see some R32's on the H line in the mid 1980's.
That would be quite a trick. The 'H' designation disappeared by 1976 when the 'C' started running to Rockaway Park. The 'C' did run R-32s the whole time it went to Rockaway Park, from September 1976 through October 1992 when it was cut back to Euclid.
During those sixteen years, the 'C' could be made up of R-10s (till 1989) or R-27-30s (first sighted by me in March 1987), with the occasional Slant or R-46 making a cameo appearance.
The R-46s ran on the CC in 1980 in an effort to reduce their running hours due to the truck cracking problem which surfaced at that time. It resulted in scrambled car assignments, with equipment going anywhere and everywhere.
Actually, the "HH" designation disappeared in 1976. In 1985, when all double letters were removed, the former Rockaway Park shuttle (which ran to Euclid during non rush hours and was signed as a "CC") was relettered as the H. This line was almost exclusively serviced by green R10's until 1989, when it was then made up of R32's. The "H" line was reduced to weekend only service after the C line was expanded from rush hour only service on 12/12/88. It disappeared in 10/92, when Rockaway service was reconfigured.
BTW, on my 10/92 map, it shows that A rush hour specials from Rockaway Park terminated at59th St/Columbus Crcle, but I never saw a single scheduled train terminate here.
Having worked in the area of 59th St for several years a number of Rock Pk "A"s southbound start in the afternoon . They come down CPW empty, and 59th is the first loadind point. Would that qualify as a terminal being its a starting point? I think it's every third "A" is a vacant Rock PK. Perhaps a more knowledgeble source will jump in here.I think the first is about 16:18 .
There are five such runs each way. You can see the schedule on the NYCTA Web site. You were only off by a minute! The schedule says it's 16:19.
I find it very interesting that the schedule shows this as the "A Diamond" service. Too bad the trains can't.
Too bad they can't use the "H" to designate this service.
When last I saw the "H", as I previously mentioned, it was of R10s, and #2974 was its operating motor. The bulkhead signs at either end of this train were post-GOH (the train itself was Bottle Green) types and it was a blue bullet with a white "H".
Wayne
I believe that they call these trains "put ins" and they originate from the turnaround/siding just north of 72nd. Correct me if I am wrong.
Peace,
Andee
I think they originate from the 168th St yard. The Rockaway Park special A trains terminate and go OOS at this station.
There are also put-ins in the PM on the F line. Every other Queens-bound F train is actually not put into service until it gets to Jay St. These trains come out of the Ave. X yard and run up the express tracks all the way to Jay St., although with the Bergen St. interlocking still affected by fire of 4/99, these trains switch to the local track north of 4th Ave.
Never seen R32 run J line just R40M and R42 until they are retired. If an R32/38 was seen on this line will probley mean it was pressed into service to make up for a train taken out of service due to failure
Never seen an R38 anywhere on the eastern division, but that doesn't mean they have never run there. Since 1990, when the redbird R30's were transferred over to the C line, the J has been exclusively R40M/42.
I saw an R16 on the "JJ" once, and a BMT Standard on the "KK" once as well. Between 1969 and 1973 I saw a number of R32s onthe "QJ", but the predominant car was the R27/R30. R42s also ran on the "QJ", along with R-7A and R-9.
Wayne
I would have loved to have seen the standard on the KK at a 6th Av station. It had to look very out of place. At that time the standards were basically only on the 14th St Canarsie Line.
It WAS - northbound, at Broadway-Lafayette. It was very, very decrepit. Most of the cars had no signs, but some that did said "B'way-B'klyn L'c'l". I THINK one said "57th Street"-something.
These were the car #s according to the Grey Book.
Spotted on November 29, 1968:
KK: AB Type:
#2424, #2403, #2694, #2610, #2459, #2645.
Wayne
I never saw any R-32s on the QJ, but did see and ride on R-27/30s, R-42s, and on one or two occasions, R-7/9s. Rode on a JJ of R-27/30s once, in March of 1968. There are photos of R-16s on the QJ with a full compliment of bulkhead signs: QJ/168th St. Jamaica.
The KK never saw any R-32s, did it?
I don't think so. The R7-9 cars ruled this line, with the exception of the occasional R42.
You mean - VERY occasional R42. I think just ONE consist of R42s were ever run on the "KK". #4918-4919 was one of these.
There's a picture in the Illustrated Subway Car roster of an R27 at 57th Street-6th Avenue signed up as "KK". I would bet that this was the one and only time these cars ever ran on the "KK". Never saw any of THEM - but did see plenty of R-7A and R-9 stuff, and, of course the token R42 once in a blue moon.
An aside to the above re. R27 - there's a subscript "Nassau St" under the "KK", which is what I believe the "KK" was originally supposed to be - the AM version of the #14.
Wayne
The R-32s also had a "KK/Nassau St." bulkhead route sign on their original curtains.
I think the HH was entirely R1-9's.
This website contains pics of HH trains made up of R32, R38 and R10 cars as well.
More accurately they would be R-6 (the most common), with a few R-4s and R-7s thrown in. In other words, leftovers from the "E".
I show at least one R38 and one Slant R40 (signed as "S") in "HH" service. Later, the R10 would take over. Last trip I made out there, as the "H", it was #2974 and her brood. This was in April of 1988.
Wayne
Have they run on the J/Z line?
R-32s have run on the J line, though I don't think they've run there since overhaul.
David
Does anybody have a copy of the official NYCTA Subway Map from 1972? The KK and QJ was there
Yes I have one as well as a 1969 Map.
-- David
Check "How it works"
It's time for another edition of Playing in the R-17 Muck, Chapter 3. It was a fabulous day. This was my second opportunity to get dirty in steel dust which makes SMEE cars so recognizable. It was a small crew of myself, Lou from Bklyn, Lou Shavell, the project's leader, and another gentlemen from the Museum. Thurston and Doug aka BMTman weren't around, and missed out on the festivities due to other engagements.
We were continuing to do what we know best, which was to attempt to remove as much of the steel dust as we could out of the R-17. Lou Shavell had to leave early, and another gentleman quickly filled in. The remainder of the rotating fans came down with much difficulty as we had trouble unscrewing the bolts from the ceiling. With from out chief mechanic, Jeff H., he cut the bolts off a machine capable of cutting thick objects. Jeff also performed some repairs to the supports that held up the fans. Unforuntately, we bent one of the fan covers trying to get that one troublesome assembly down, but it'll be fixed later. Due to a movie shoot, we had to work as soon as possible to get the car back together which in some ways didn't give us a chance to work on the ceiling thoroughly. The fans will come back down shortly, so we may our continue our efforts to clean them up and do any remaining work in the celing.
This is probably the dirtiest job I've ever engaged in. Fortunately, I wasn't hit with the muck as hard as previously. The worker of the day was Lou from Bklyn who spent endless hours working in the ceiling. He managed to do a great job in cleaning the ceiling while getting hit with all that stuff. I didn't go exactly free form the dirt. Each of us got the stuff in our noses. Ugh! Dirt really isn't man's best friend.
The fans went back up and we attempted to do some cleanup on the car. Then the unthinkable happened. Lou from Bklyn, was able to get Jeff to act as our pilot for the day and take our blessed SMEE car out of the shop. Down the line we went, in the thick of the night, taking in all that wonderful CT air and riding with nothing more than emergency lights. Actually, they were ready to ride completely submerged in darkness, but I wanted to see my way around the car, so I made the pilot (Jeff) put the emergency lights on. Each of us got an opportunity to operate and it was a great night. No day would be complete without getting to throw the switch for our car and to get two streetcars around the yard, one of which I got to manuever as a qualified operator. ConnCo woodys rule at BERA.
That was basically it. I did my bit to bring this car nearer to finishing our project. Completion will come in the near future. I think that I'd like to return to stripping the paint off the car so we may conclude our work on the car exterior by giving painting up 6688.
Isn't it great to have the best of both worlds? NYC Subway technology and the scenics of a ConnCo trolley route? It's an interesting combination!
Until Next Time,
Stef
As the Coal Miner in the the roof of 6688, I'm still sneezing black gunk out. It was a pleasure to run 6688 under Jeff H's pilotship even though I dumped her just trying to get indication (well things were backwards, this is the frist time I operated on that side of the car >G< Good excuse??).
Brandford is wonderful in the night, just having the rear storm door open holding the pole rope with the ocean air as Stef but 6688 through her paces was great relief to the black gunk work.
I must say seems to me Stef knows his stuff bringing in the ConnCo. But then I get my copy of the rulebook next Saturday at the start of operator training.
So tell me, did 6688 take off like a bullet down the track? That story of a few years back is still etched in my memory.
Of course. However, on this day the car only ran a short stretch due to the fact we were backpoling (trolley pole in reverse of normal operation) with the car.
-Stef
Now now Steve are you trying to get us in trouble with the mngt. ?
Seriously all of us that have had the privilege of pulling the handle a time or two are very responsible folks. Most of the time we just go along for the ride with one of the qualified operators. The heavy RT cars can use up the rails & ties fast if we hot dog down the line, so we take it easy over the switches and on the curves and hills ... however there's ample room for full power on the streight stretches. That's the nice part of this line, i.e. it's long enough and has several different operating conditions that you get the feeling of an authentic operation. We also DON'T come into the stations with "authority". The trick is to glide (not crawl) into the station/platform for a smooth stop (don't have to add power or jam on the brakes).
Mr t__:^)
The story I heard a few years back was that someone wrapped the controller on 6688 on the mainline, and it took off like a bullet. I realize that subway cars can be tough on the track, since it's more suited for streetcars, not to mention running up the electric bill. And, no, you certainly wouldn't want to imitate a train of R-10s roaring into 42nd St. on the southbound express track. 1689 took the rails at a nice, leisurely pace back in 1980, bull and pinion gears groaning away. Of course, we were driving Eddie crazy with the highball buzzer, and I gave the doors a good workout.
When the R-17 passes the barns she is closest to the juice, but there are a lot of switches there, plus folks can walk out from between buildings, so you have to keep the speed down, however on my turn at the handle she was at full power before and after the curve on the way to Short Beach. The streight track is in pritty good shape so our instructor doesn't have a problem allowing this. Typically the qualified operators give them all they'll take on the streight track and this is part of the joy of just going for a ride in the El Gate car, the R-9, the PCC or even the Lo-V and Hi-V. The latter two old girls take a little longer to get up to speed but are still able to rustle a few leaves as they go down the line AND they make such nice noises as they do.
BTW, We have blow the main circuit breaker on NY Days when the PCC and one of the subway cars and a trolley are moving at the same time. But that's part of the fun of running the RxR.
Mr t__:^)
I ws laboring under the delusion that Friday, March 24 would be the last day of the old PCCs on the Newark City Subway. Keeping this in mind, I thought Monday, February 21, Washington's Birthday, would be a good day to take the boy, but I didn't want to waste a trip to Newark. Washington's birthday is one of those odd days where you get more service than a weekend, but somewhat less than full weekday service. I E-mailed NJ Transit with a simple yes-or-no question: "Is the Newark City Subway running on Monday, February 21?" The response I got was that it would be running on a "holiday schedule". Since this didn't answer my question at all, ('Holiday' means 'weekend' to me) I didn't take a chance.
On Wednesday the 23rd I took a mental health day and set out for Newark myself for a solo 'last hurrah'. I struck up a conversation with the operator, who informed me that the new cars probably wouldn't be in place till the summer due to delays in construction- cold weather and the like. There was still heavy construction at the Franklin loop, and it looked like a new trackway was being laid slightly to the east of the current one at Orange Street.
We both agreed that NJ Transit's customer service department is a bit wanting in communication. The fact that the toll-free phone number only works IN New Jersey, and if you're calling from out of state, you have to call long distance, doesn't help either. Seems to me it should be the other way around.
The good news is it looks like we'll get a chance to ride on the next school holidays, Passover and Good Friday.
Now, will the Hudson light rail be ready on March 25 as promised?
I too made a "Last Days of the Newark PCCs" trip, on Feb 24. I had the day off work, and it was a beautiful day. I was able to take 2 rolls of photos. I was fortunate in that they even had 2 work-cars on the line that day: Number 16, which looks like a regular passenger car on the outside, and a red "Special," Numbered 5223. I also got some great shots of some of the WPA murals, and also the old Pennsy right-of-way from the "railfan" window of the PATH train (I came from Manhattan.) I wasn't bold enough to chat with the operator. (I always get the impression they don't want to be bothered.)
I'm still wondering when and why the trolley poles were replaced by the pantographs. In the City Subway photo on the NJT website, the trolley pole appears in use. Also, I'm sure trolley museums around N. America are eager to obtain the cars once they're replaced. Has anyone heard anything about that?
According to well-placed sources most of the fleet will be headed for San Francisco where they will see continued service. Three of the twenty remaining cars will remain in the east and one (committed to San Francisco and diverted by their agreement) will return to Minneapolis-St. Paul where it originally ran.
The change to pantographs was necessitated by the change from trolley wire to catenary in preparation for the new light rail vehicles. This changeover was made last summer - August, IIRC. I last rode the line in June when the poles were still in use.
Would you be willing to scan your photos and submit them to Dave for posting on this site? The work cars and the murals sound especially interesting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Minneapolis already has two cars (3 & 27) obtained from Newark via Shaker Heights. These are under restoration by the museum up there. Wonder why they want a third.
I will check further on the SF rumour. My SF sources at Geneva Carhouse have already told me that Muni doesn't want GE equipped cars, as they are impossible to maintain because of the parts situation, and they need these cars to be reliable now and in the future.
Stranger things have happened though.
Newark is the only one still operating GE PCC's. The remaining surplus SEPTA cars are also GE powered. Buffalo has 12 rusty ex-Minn. SHRT cars, plus parts, that they aren't parting with either. Boston's cars are WABCo. BTW - The largest repository of US PCC cars right now is in Ed Metka's yard in PA (58+ cars, plus parts).
Boston's cars are WABCo.
You mean Westinghouse {Electric Manufacturing Co.}
Submitted the photos to Dave tonite. Most aren't much different from what's already on the site, but there are good shots of the work cars and 3 decent shots of the wall murals. Those pantographs still weird me out a bit, tho! :)
ENJOY - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Strip/1871/letter_rocker.html
I agree with the letter, both in concept and in content. However, don't expect it to get anywhere.
The whole Rocker incident was a transparent and well-orchestrated publicity stunt, arranged jointly by the Braves AND the Mets solely to whip up some home-town pride in both cities. Notice how Rocker "knew" exactly which ethnicities and languages to include in his diatribe and which to exclude. (And OF COURSE you'll hear people in Times Square speaking every language - they're all TOURISTS!!)
It was a move worthy of the World Wrestling Federation, complete with a "fine" and a "punishment." Clearly the "discipinary action" is a total fiction, and each team contributed something toward his "fine," as payment for services rendered in full.
Will they pay for his medical bills after he is knocked unconsious by a barrage of pretzles.
When I came to town with my friend on Saturday he absent-mindedly wore his Braves jacket. A civic-minded man on the 1 told my friend he may want to remove his jacket, with all that happened.
He quickly complied and kept the jacket off until we were well on our back to Philadelphia.
I'm one of those people who thinks that while Rocker might be a racist ass hole, he is entitled to his own opinion and should not have been suspended. I also think that his comments sprang from a general dislike of New York City and its environs, and on this issue I can see his point. However he failed to realize that New York isn't bad because its full of minorities, its bad because its full of New Yorkers (j/k...a little). Anyway, I also feel that his suspention should not have been recuced. THis is not because I wanted him punished or anything, it was because his first game back would have been against the Phillies at the Vet. The fans down here have been saving their batteries all during the post season to give him a taste of "brotherly love." Ah, who can forget opening day 1998 with the Mets and the commeritive magnets (it was rather bad form to come back and win after your fans pelted you with magnets), and opening day 1999 ie High School Student day, aka. vendors serve beer to High School Students day or, more importantly, drunk students from rival schools brawl in stands day. Needless to say, I can't wait for opening day 2000.
I wonder if Rocker has been "Bermanized" yet.-)
I was looking at a 1959 brochure announcing skip-stop service along the #14 and #15 BMT Jamaica line between 168th Street in Jamaica and Eastern Parkway. (http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/jamskip.htm)
This pattern is similar to today's J/Z service along that line, but with one interesting difference: in 1959, the Woodhaven Blvd. stop was not among the stops made by both trains. According to this brochure, both the #14 and #15 made stops at Sutphin Blvd., Elderts Lane, and Eastern Pkwy. Today, both the J and Z stop at Sutphin/Archer, Woodhaven Blvd., Crescent St., and Eastern Pkwy.
(Another difference seems to be that the #14 and #15 evidently resumed a standard "local/express" relationship after Eastern Parkway, whereas today's J/Z skip-stop format prevails all the way out to Myrtle Avenue.)
The fact that both the #14 and #15 trains did not stop at the Woodhaven Blvd. station would seem to indicate that, back then, the street itself was not considered to be the major thoroughfare that it is thought of as today.
This is a little surprising, given the extreme width of Woodhaven Blvd., as well as its current status as the main street of several neighborhoods.
Also, it always struck me pretty strange that the Queens Blvd. line does not have an express stop at Woodhaven Blvd. You'd think that such a huge intersection of two mighty boulevards would rate an express stop.
But, the fact that there is no express stop there supports the theory that, at one time, Woodhaven Blvd. was not considered an important street.
A further piece of evidence that Woodhaven Blvd. just didn't qualify in people's minds as a major street in decades past is the fact that the stop which is located at Woodhaven Blvd. along the former BMT Liberty Avenue el and the current A train is not called by the Woodhaven Blvd. name at all, but instead by the name "Rockaway Blvd."
So, the questions this raises are:
- when did people begin to consider Woodhaven Blvd. a major street? (I imagine that Karl M. would have some interesting insights here.)
- it was easy to upgrade the Woodhaven Blvd. stop on the Jamaica el to serve both the J and Z, simply by changing the skip-stop pattern; but could the Woodhaven Blvd. stop on the Queens Blvd. line be converted into an express stop? Would the riders of those lines want this?
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- While I am still thinking about this "local/express" issue: why is 74th St/Broadway not an express stop on the 7? Was this always the case? I think I remember that Woodside was *not* an express stop for a while, but now it is. Did they bump 74th St. as an express stop in order to include Woodside?
[The fact that both the #14 and #15 trains did not stop at the Woodhaven Blvd. station would seem to indicate that, back then, the
street itself was not considered to be the major thoroughfare that it is thought of as today.
This is a little surprising, given the extreme width of Woodhaven Blvd., as well as its current status as the main street of several
neighborhoods.
Also, it always struck me pretty strange that the Queens Blvd. line does not have an express stop at Woodhaven Blvd. You'd think that such a huge intersection of two mighty boulevards would rate an express stop.
But, the fact that there is no express stop there supports the theory that, at one time, Woodhaven Blvd. was not considered an important street.]
Check out www.forgotten-ny.com under "Street Scenes," and look for the section on Woodhaven Boulevard. As you suspect, Woodhaven Boulevard was not a major throughfare until the 1930's.
Check out NYC resources, IND Queens Blvd line. It has nice info on each station ,chech Woodhaven BLVD.
My grandmother told me that property owners on the old Woodhaven Blvd. were forced into selling out so the city could expand the road. Many were bitter about it until the day they died.
The station while it is a local has bellmouths at each approach to allow for conversion into an express station=- The tunnel widens before entering the station and the wide area ends at the bellmouth.
The layout appears to be designed as two island platforms. I do not know if there is more platform behind the walls, an empty space or just earth. I also do not know what would be done with the xcurrent express tracks if the station were converted to express.
The Flushing line was built through Jackson Heights by 1918. The IND Queens Boulevard line was built through Jackson Heights by 1933. Between those years, the 74th Street/Broadway was pretty much a neighborhood local stop. Not only was there no IND to transfer to, but no LaGuardia Airport to catch a bus to. Hence, no reason for it to have been an express stop. A lot of people ASSUME it is, because of the current transfer- and you know what happens when you ASSUME.
The IND stop below it, of course, is express because by the time the line came through, the Flushing line had preceded it by fifteen years.
Woodside rated being an express stop in 1918 because of the connection to the LIRR.
Similarly, the Columbus Circle station on the IRT line (1904) is local, but the newer station downstairs on the IND (1932) is express.
A strange reversal of this situation is at Yankee Stadium, where the newer IND Concourse line is a local stop. One would think that the connection to the IRT and the stadium, which predated the IND by several years, would have made it an express stop. I hate to think how many people headed for weeknight ball games end up at Tremont Avenue.
It was relatively easy to covert 59th/Lex into an express stop because the local and express tracks ran on different levels. It was just a matter of adding new platforms and stairways. To convert most other stops would be much too expensive. Side platforms would have to be replaced to island platforms, tracks would have to be realigned- just not worth the trouble and cost.
When the Fulton el reached Queens in 1916 (?), neither Woodhaven nor Cross Bay Boulevard existed yet. They're said to have been WPA projects, like the Belt System, Francis Lewis Boulevard and other large, divided arteries. That's why the station at the intersection of those boulevards and Liberty Avenue is named for Rockaway Boulevard and not the two better-known ones.
> I hate to think how many people headed for weeknight ball
> games end up at Tremont Avenue.
Well the few times I've gone up there for a weekday night game, they run the Bronx-bound D trains locally to accommodate the Yankee fans...
-Dave
[Similarly (as a result of subsequent area development), the Columbus Circle station on the IRT line (1904) is local, but the newer station downstairs on the IND (1932) is express.]
Yet the IRT has express stops at 72nd and 96th - weren't those areas even less developed than Columbus Circle 100 years ago?
96 St is an express stop by virtue of being the first (last) station before the B'way local and Lenox Ave local come together (seperate).
72 St happens to be a double-wide street (ie, two-way traffic) which lies midway between its neighboring express stops of 42 and 96 (one double-wide between 42 and 72 - 57 and one between 72 and 96 - 86), as well as an intersection of B'way (with Amsterdam), and being reasonably close to the big apartment buildings on CPW, like the Dakota, and to New York Central West Side Yard.
79th is also double-wide.
But 79 St doesn't go across the whole of the West Side, thereby knocking it out of contention.
[Why is 74th St/Broadway not an express stop on the 7? Was this always the case?]
When the IRT line was built, the IND line wasn't, so there was no need to make 74 St a local/express station.
[it always struck me pretty strange that the Queens Blvd. line does not have an express stop at Woodhaven Blvd. You'd think that such a huge intersection of two mighty boulevards would rate an express stop.]
The IND line built a provision to make Woodhaven Blvd a local/express stop. Why they haven't done it is beyond me.
What the MTA Should Do if They Ever Get the Money
1. Convert Woodhaven Blvd to a Local/Express stop, with the express tracks using the trackways of the existing local tracks.
The trackways currently used by D3 and D4 will be made into a line to connect with JFK Airport
2. Resurrect the World's Fair Line and extend it to La Guardia Airport
3. Extend the 31st Street Line to La Guardia Airport
More info to come.
[2. Resurrect the World's Fair Line and extend it to La Guardia Airport]
Isn't the VanWyck/ Whitestone Expressway built over the old ROW?
Yes, but my idea would build an elevated over the expressway.
BTW, I have more info. Click here to see it.
You left the best station (and probably one of the most intact) off of your "K" Line - Atlantic Avenue/Woodhaven Junction.
Shouldn't Ozone Park be 101st Avenue as opposed to Liberty Avenue?
Wayne
No more Aquaduct/No.Conduit Ave. station?
Woodhaven Blvd. was not the major thoroughfare it is today back when th J line was built. It was gradually expanded until it reached it's present width in the 1940's. Elderts Lane was always a common stop when they had skip-stop service (1959-1985) on the J line. In fact, Elderts Lane is the only station on Jamaica Ave thats 600' long. A bizzare feature which has puzzled me for years.
This pattern is similar to today's J/Z service along that line, but with one interesting difference: in 1959, the Woodhaven Blvd. stop was not among the stops made by both trains. According to this brochure, both the #14 and #15 made stops at Sutphin Blvd., Elderts Lane, and Eastern Pkwy. Today, both the J and Z stop at Sutphin/Archer, Woodhaven Blvd., Crescent St., and Eastern Pkwy.
Elderts Lane merited #14/#15 service because of Franklin Lane HS. It is an important stop for students exiting to go to school in the morning. Today's service may be more consistent geometrically. However, half the students from Queens have to take two trains instead of one.
Most students in Queens who are zoned for FK Lane HS go elsewhere, for obvious reasons. I did. But in 1959, you didn't have school choice in reguards to high school, so I'm guessing that's why Elderts Lane saw more students.
[Most students in Queens who are zoned for FK Lane HS go elsewhere, for obvious reasons. I did.]
_Newsweek_ just published a list of the country's 500 top public high schools. I guess there's no point in looking for Lane HS :-)
Um no. LOL. They did have a very good law program a ways back, but it's deteriorated badly.
We should be doing this on Off Subtalk, but anyway.
The list, as previously, does not take into account schools which admit more than half of their students by examination, in addition, I believe using AP exam rates to determine the ranking is highly suspect. The recent U.S. News rankings used average student household income as a factor in their ranks.
On the west side of Third ave and appx. 57-60 street in brooklyn there is an old brick warehouse. This building takes up one block on third ave and has an inscription on the front "BC RR company 1882. Any one out there have any idea what rr company this was and any history on it??
Brooklyn City Railroad, perhaps???
Actually, it probably stands for Brooklyn Central Railroad. As an active RR, I believe it didn't make it into the 20th Century.
Doug aka BMTman
03/06/2000
BCRR was the Brooklyn City Railroad.
That building was their trolley barn. I'm pretty sure Paul Matus and others may fill you in on the history.
Bill Newkirk
BCRR stands for Brooklyn City RR, one of the companies that eventually made up the BRT. The building was used as a carbarn apparently until 1947. I've never been in it, and I've always wondered if the tracks are still in there.
Yes, it stood for Brooklyn City RR. BCRR and the Atlantic Avenue Railroad were the two main constituent parts of what became the BRT.
I think the correct date on that building is 1892. I remember reading somewhere, that the building had 3 levels reached by the street, car elevators, a transfer table and held 800 cars!
The main office building of the BCRR is still standing- at the foot of old Fulton Street, across from Bargemusic.
Thanks for the reply. I"ve allways wondered what it was. Do you know where the right of way was for the building?
The main tracks were on 3rd Av, but there was also a 2 track line along 2nd. There were also single tracks along both side streets.
A little known fact, is that a major outdoor terminal with several loops was at the site of a little league field at 3rd Av & 64 St.
thanks for the info.!!!
I wanna know if anyone knows where I can get Straphanger designed New York City Subway lines besides Grand Central Museum annex and Canal Jeans? I have a F Train Shirt. Does anyone know if they made an E Train shirt? If so, can you please tell me where to get it? I know there has to be somewhere else besides those 2 stores, because neither store has the 7 Train shirt, but I have seen someone with a 7 Train shirt. Also a friend of mine(not a Railfan)has told me that a store has every subway line T-Shirt. Please tell me of any stores u may know in the 4 boroughs (other than staten Island)? please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com, or post a response. Thank you
I wanna know if anyone knows where I can get Straphanger designed New York City Subway lines besides Grand Central Museum annex and Canal Jeans? I have a F Train Shirt. Does anyone know if they made an E Train shirt? If so, can you please tell me where to get it? I know there has to be somewhere else besides those 2 stores, because neither store has the 7 Train shirt, but I have seen someone with a 7 Train shirt. Also a friend of mine(not a Railfan)has told me that a store has every subway line T-Shirt. Please tell me of any stores u may know in the 4 boroughs (other than staten Island)? please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com, or post a response. Thank you
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wanna know if anyone knows where I can get Straphanger designed New York City Subway lines besides Grand Central Museum annex and Canal Jeans? I have a F Train Shirt. Does anyone know if they made an E Train shirt? If so, can you please tell me where to get it? I know there has to be somewhere else besides those 2 stores, because neither store has the 7 Train shirt, but I have seen someone with a 7 Train shirt. Also a friend of mine(not a Railfan)has told me that a store has every subway line T-Shirt. Please tell me of any stores u may know in the 4 boroughs (other than staten Island)? please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com, or post a response. Thank you
Why don't we wait until someone
OTHER than subwayman answer it's
own post...
I would like to know which types of IRT cars that are
today's redbirds operated on which lines before the 1986-1991
rehabilitation began. In other words, which cars operated on
the IRT lines when they arrived? (R-26, R-28, R-29, R-33 and
R-36 cars)
8570-8599, some 7800's, upper 9000's,& all 9100-9305, on the #6, 8600-8687, 7100's - 7400's on the #1 & 3, & sometimes some W.F. R36 cars, from 1976 on all R17's were on the #4, the #2 & #5 ran 7500's -7749 + 7750-7799 & some 7800's along with 7900's(R29) 8688-mid 9000's.
I would like to know why the IRT #2 and #5 lines switch
their redbirds in 1994-1996, just like when the B and Q lines
swicthed their cars in November 1997, to allow the R-40s to get
some rest when the Q is not running. I remember before 1994-
1996, the #2 line had the R-26s, R-28s, R-29s and occassional
R-33s, and the #5 line had the R-33s. Why were these redbirds
switched in 1994-1996? Which redbirds will be the first to
retired from service?
The R-33s seem to be in better shape than their older brethren. Since the 5 is reduced to a shuttle during the late hours while the 2 runs 24/7, the idea is the same as the B and Q equipment swap: use the older equipment on a part-time line.
As to which Redbirds will be retired first, chances are it will be the ones with the greatest amount of corrosion.
The condition of the ACF R26 and 28's on the #5 are pretty bad. Rust everywhere. Their almost at the end.
R26 are 1st to go. Then R28, R29, R33-36 MainLine then R33-36 World's Fair cars. Once WF cars go, it'll be official that all redbirds will be extinct! :( Get your pics now! I did!
R36Gary
About 2 weeks ago I received in the mail, Vol.2 2000, M.T.H. catelogue
in it is a Railking R-21 ,4 car set. From the pix, it looks neat.
M.S.R.P. $180-$299. Due date Nov. 2000.
I,d really like to see R1/R9's in new paint and tunnel crud.
Not all redbirds will disapear WF cars will be phased out in a mix with normal R33/R36 types WF cars are not just #7line mainstay. They are also on #2 and#6 lines and have been for a number of years. They will be phased out depending on how fast new equipment is put into actual service. Since new R142cars are going to be tested on the #2 line that line will most likely recieve the first order of the new 142s. When this happens some redbirds will be scapped others will be scatterd through the rest of the lines useing redbirds. It's a slow elimination process My prediction is the very last redbirds will be on the #5 dyer ave line
That's what I figured. As I recall, back in 1987, the last old cars of R-17s, R-21s, and R-22s were put here and eventually phased out. Even pre-GOH R-33s spent their last days in graffiti white before being painted red. Is the line traditionally the last line with old equipment? It sure seems that way.
-Stef
Hi stef I that's the way TA will do the phase out process they use a line whicn is not to signifigant in other words not widly used like the #2line until it reaches a certin point. that is most likly why they keep the line in service or they would have cut it by now. The line is not widely used from 180th st through the bronx but turns revenue going downtown making it physiable to keep the line in service therfore reciving all older equipment before they are retired like it was with 3rd ave EL
I see your point. A line not subject to widespread use by passengers (lightly used) is subject to receiving what's left of the old equipment.
However, that may not be the case since the yard at E180th St was rebuilt to handle the new cars. It sounds like the 5 is getting at least some of the new cars, unless politics dictates otherwise.
-Stef
I live near the #5 route above East 180th Street and the line does in fact get quite crowded during rush hours.
Off peak hours is a different story. What may end up happening is that the R142 trains will be running during the rush hour. This is what appears to be happening now. The two R-62A trains that the 5 acquired are only used during the morning and evening rush hours. Other times they can be spotted parked in the E180th/Unionport yard.
In fact, the #5 didn't have any of the "newer" subway cars until a year or so ago.
When the R142 gets tested in actual passanger service, the test calls for 24 hour operation, to see how they handle the wear and tear. That would indicate their testing on the #2 line. My guess is that the R142's will first go onto the #2 line, bumping the R33's now on the #2 over to the 5, displacing the R26/28 cars, which should be the first to see the scrapyard.
Redbirds that are bumped off #2 line will get sent all over to other lines still using redbirds not just to #5 line
I would assume R33's on the 2 would get moved to the #5, so the oldest cars, the R26 and R28 can be scrapped first. The R33's are, for the most part, in better shape than the R26/28's.
Yes your right but sometimes older cars are in better shape then newer ones I see it with the buses they will scrap a 4000 rts before some of the 3000 series they have the maintance records of all repairs,breakedowns,etc and that's how they determine what stays and what goes
Isn't it true that common practice has been to trot out the oldest equipment for rush hour service? On the IND, the last remaining prewar cars ended their careers on the CC and rush hour E lines; the R-10s wound up on the CC as well. The Triplexes wound up on the West End, which by the 60s was essentially a rush hour service (R units covered that route on weekends). And supposedly, the last BMT standards ran on what is now the M, which at that time was also a rush hour route.
Yes. In the R16's last days (86-87), they ran only during rush hours on the B, R and J routes. Only on the M could you catch an R16 train after 10 AM or before 3:30 PM on a weekday.
That's what it seems like. I've noticed a pattern over the years. For argument sake, the last stand of the R-38s might be on the C. In theory, the old equipment should be relegated to a time period of the day when it would only be needed briefly. I can see a few trains of R33/36s being held for rush hour only service after all new cars are in service.
-Stef
That's why I suggested moving some of the `birds over to the B division and putting platform extenders on them for rush hour use on the Eastern Division. It would give them enough trains to open the 63rd Street connector possible later this year, instead of waiting until the R-143s arrive. The current extra R-40Ms/R-42s used for rush hour on the J/M/Z could be added onto the Q (V or whatever) service going via 63rd St. to Continental Ave. or 179th St.
Unless the rust is so bad the structural integrity of the cars is threatened, there's no reason not to use the existing R-26/28/29s another 12 to 18 months for rush-hour only service, which would help relieve some of the overcrowding on the BMT and IND faster than waiting for the new cars (headed for the Eastern Division L and M lines anyway)to arrive before moving some of the 40Ms and 42s over to handle the new Queens connector.
Again: by the time enough Redbirds can be freed up by the placement into service of R-142s and R-142As, the R-143s will be in (or at least VERY near) and the Redbirds won't be necessary on the BMT/IND.
David
Redbirds would never see IND/BMT service IRT saw to this back in early 1900s because they did not want IND/BMT trains on their tracks that,s why IRT cars are shorter and narrower
IRT cars are shorter and narrower because the Contract I IRT was built to the existing el specifications. The BMT was built to the larger commuter rail specs. The IRT used the smaller specs for 2 reasons. One was to prevent the subway tunnels from being used to haul freight around the city at night (this was before trucks did all this work). Parsons adamantly refused to allow "his" subway to be used to move freight. The other was to make the subways and existing IRT els compatable. The BMT used the larger specs to increase passanger capacity.
It's kind of ironic I think.
If they would have allowed freight to be carried around at night, especially when not too many trains are running, you would think the powers that be at the time would have seen it as a way to "lease" the tracks out during off-peak times to make up for the lost revenue from having dead tracks or to make a little extra money.
Of course, I'm not an expert in railroad business, so this is just my opinion.
03/12/2000
Aren't the R-62's due for a General Overhaul? If so then the #4 line will be short equipment, that's when surplus Redbirds will fill in until the fleet is overhauled.
Bill Newkirk
One more time:
NOTHING--NOTHING--NOTHING!!!!! is due for a General Overhaul, or ever will be again if the current philosophy holds. This current philosophy is called SMS, or Scheduled Maintenance System. Under SMS, components are replaced on a life-cycle basis at pre-programmed intervals.
David
The R62 will never need a GOH, as it's been well maintained since it's delivery. The large scale GOH's done on cars in the mid/late 1980's was only necessitated by the years of abuse and deferred maintenance they suffered through in the 60's and 70's.
03/13/2000
Okay I was wrong! Maybe not a general overhaul. but a general cleaning, repainting of end bonnets, a spruce up if you will. Who knows maybe even installation of AC traction motors. The R-32's, at least some of them will have a sort of an overhaul to extend their lives even further. The R-62's, despite their impressive track record, look beat to me. I believe floors are to be replaced and they sure can use it. But replacing components are only one facet in proper car maintenance. Appearance also counts.
Bill Newkirk
I don't think the last standards were on the "M". I think they had R-16's or cars like them. During the last years of the Myrtle I used to ride it alot to ride the "Q" cars. I don't ever recall the Standards on the Myrtle or the Bway El W/O Myrtle in the late 60's however they were the only trains on the Canarsie Line. I used to take the Myrtle to Wyckoff to change for the Standards on the LL, if they were on the "M" I just would have had to get off a "Q" car and wait for the next train!!
03/12/2000
Sarge,
Legend has it that the last run of the BMT Standards was on my birthday, August 4,1969 as a Myrtle-Chambers run. I have a Steve Zabel slide taken on the tower steps looking down on the train. Sad sight, the last run of the 67' cars that was the BMT. After the doors were closed, the train made the usual stops to Chambers St. and after Chambers ran light to Coney Island and it was all over.
Bill Newkirk
I'm sure you're right. They say the memory is the first thing to go!!!
And two months after that, the Q units and the Myrtle Ave. el said sayonara.
The R-7/9s began to appear on the LL in Jaunary of 1969. The first time I saw them there was on January 5. Naturally, that train was headed for 8th Ave. while we were on our way to Brooklyn on a train of BMT standards. Naturally, after that sighting, I always hoped to get a train of R-7/9s on the LL, but since time was of the essence in both directions, we didn't wait. I was already insisting on taking an A train from 42nd to 14th, and we had a few close calls because of that (being late for Saturday school).
It does seem the #5 gets the oldest equipment. The last pre-GOH redbirds (grafittied white back then) ran on the #5 in late 1987. The R17's and R21/22 cars mostly spent their last days on the #3 line. That line was a disgrace until the new R62A cars began taking over in spring 1987.
I just think that the #3 line turns more revenue then the #5 in turn will get the better equipment
I'm sure the #5 carries more passangers since it runs on the crowded East side IRT.
All together now (to the tune of Frosty the Snowman):
Rusty the Redbird
Was a jolly subway car.
Made of carbon steel with bulkhead signs
And a pair of marker lights...
OK, so I'm not a songwriter. Anyone else care to add to this?
Will they retire them one fleet at a time or will they retire them car by car
Probably car by car, although I'd assume the oldest (R26) class would be completely retired.
The R-26s will probably be the first ones to go, yes. This is pure speculation, but I would say the R-33s will still be around for a while.
New R142 will begin testing on #2line this year sometime There are now at least 5 new cars at 238st shop. They will oporate in an A,B,B,B,A fashion.meaning 1 cab car 3trailers and anothercab beleive testing is to start in june but TA always changes it's mind to many bosses. And the redbirds will be slowly phased out. All redbird fleet should be retired by 2005.
Last week, I took the IRT Lexingotn Avenue Line to
Grand Central and here's what I observed:
Corona R-36s on the IRT #6 Line.
239th Street Yard (#2 Line) R-33s on the IRT #6 Line.
What's going on? The 1964 World's Fair R-36s belong on the IRT
Flushing Line, and those R-33s with the black strip below their
number plates I saw on the IRT #6 line belong on the IRT #2
line. Why were these cars moved onto the IRT #6 line. It's the
same thing, I saw two wweks ago: Pelham Line R-62A on the #3
line. Are all the IRT lines switching cars around soon?
"Corona" R-36s have been assigned to Pelham Maintenance Shop (#6 line) for many, many years, along with the 34 "mainline" R-36s.
The R-33s on the #6 line are there in exchange for two trains of R-62As, which run in #5 service and allow for OPTO (One-Person Train Operation) on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle at night.
About ten R-62As were transferred from Pelham Maintenance Shop (#6 line) to Livonia Maintenance Shop (#3 line) a few weeks ago. The 42nd Street Shuttle fleet is now maintained by Livonia.
David
Folks--
Had a chance to chat with the NJ Assembly Transportation Committee Chair, Alex DeCroce, while we both waited for a committee meeting to begin.
Alex tells me the planned March 24 opening of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line is delayed. He says Transportation Commissioner Jim Weinstein wants assurances everything will work fine. According to Alex, some minor glitches (my words, not his) need to be resolved.
The estimated opening date is now sometime in mid-April, probably before Easter/Passover weekend (April 20, 21, 22, 23).
Michael
"The estimated opening date is now sometime in mid-April, probably before Easter/Passover weekend (April 20, 21, 22, 23)."
Marvelous timing! I'll be in town for the APA National Conference (Hi, Larry!) right about then, for nearly a whole week.
BTW, in connection with the Conference, but operated by a private tour company, there's a "one-hour behind the scenes tour" of Grand Central Station (followed by a United Nations tour) on Saturday, April 15th for $45. Mind you, I don't know how behind the scenes it is, but for $45, it surely shows more than the public areas of the station. Since it's being run separate from the Conference, registration is totally separate and one probably doesn't have to have anything to do with APA to get in. Mind you, from past Conferences I can tell you that tours fill up fast, and they may in fact be filled already. Nevertheless, it sounds like an opportunity to see parts of GCT that the public doesn't usually see. The company running this is The Vega Group, and their telephone is 504-947-5000. I believe that you have to say this is in connection with "APA in New York City".
The NY Division of the ERA has a behind the scenes tour of Grand Central every February. I think it's $10.
--Mark
I rode on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line this past sunday with some scheduling people. This is comfirmed, the opening date is not until some time in mid-April, due to some scheduling and lay-over conflicts. When it does open, EVERONE IS IN FOR ONE HELL OF A TREAT!!!!
Trevor Logan
The spokesperson for 21st Century, the consortium building and operating Jersey City-Bayonne Light Rail (it's not even going to make it into Hoboken until the end of next year, let alone Bergen County) anticipates revenue service commencing in three to six weeks. As an aside, they do expect to get it as far north as Newport by the end of this year.
That wouldn't surprise me. The superstructure is almost done as far as Hoboken. Since a lot of the work beyond between Newport and Exchange Place is done (at least in terms of rail and signals), that makes life easier.
Michael
There is still a lot of work to be done up to Newport. The crossing at Washington Ave. (being raised about 4 feet), and track work from Harsimus to Newport. Plus the stations, especially Harborside, are far from done.
Why doesn't the MTA allow subway-to-subway transfers on the MetroCard? This would be the next best thing to actually physically connecting nearby lines.
For example, last week, a couple of SubTalkers posted with praise for the new connection between the Franklin Ave. shuttle and the IRT in Brooklyn. Well, if the MetroCard had been programmed to allow subway-to-subway transfers, then people could have been using this "connection" for the last several years.
Likewise, subway-to-subway capability on the MetroCard would allow people to "connect" between the 63rd Street line and the Queens Boulevard line even before the actual physical meeting of the lines is accomplished. Queensbridge riders could take the short walk to Queens Plaza in order to catch the E or F for no extra fare.
Here are some other useful "virtual connections" (requiring at most a minimal walk) which a subway-to-subway transfer would make possible:
- the R at Steinway St. to the N at Broadway
- the B/Q at Lexington Ave. to the 6 at 68th St.
- the G at Broadway to the L at Lorimer St.
- the C at Lafayette Ave. to the trains at Atlantic Ave./Pacific St.
- the G at Fulton St. to the trains at Atlantic Ave./Pacific St.
- the L at Livonia Ave. to the 3 at Junius St.
- the N, 7 at Queensboro Plaza to the E, F, R, G at Queens Plaza
Any chance the MTA will one day allow for this?
Ferdinand Cesarano
To be perfectly honest with you, I seriously doubt it!
Trevor
The only way to do that with a per-ride card would be with an exit swiper. But the timed cards allow it today since it doesn't matter how many rides you take during the time period.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd pay extra for the MTA to install such a system! If you could transfer from Bway-Laffyette to the northbound 6 at Bleeker, it would solve the problem of there not being a transfer and the cost of building one! Same with those other places. You get 18 minutes to make the change. Another thing that should be done is that there should be a grace period for transfers. Once, I was on a stopped 4 train in Brooklyn (think it was at Nevins) so I transdered to the 3 to take go up Bway to 79th Street and then bus over to 3rd Avenue-my destanation. Since I started at or near Coney Island, I barely made the free transfer to the M79. Most parking garages have a 5 or 10 minute grace period. Why not the same with MetroCard?
The original time allowed between transfers did include an eighteen minute grace period: i.e. the transfer had to be made within 2 hr. 18 min.. I don't know if the extra time was ever dropped.
If you could transfer from Bway-Lafayette to the northbound 6 at Bleeker ...
You might not need a MetroCard for it. Such a connection is on the next Capital Plan.
--Mark
The MTA could save alot of money by making not current transfers exist with MetroCard. Capital campaigns could then go to things like new cars.
Why would you need an exit swiper?
For per-ride cards - they don't allow any subway-subway transfers. Let's say you boarded at Union Square on the N, got off at Prince Street, and transferred to the 6 at Spring Street. Assuming this is within the two hour window normally allocated for a transfer to a bus, how do they know that you didn't just exit at Prince Street, go have lunch at a nearby restaurant, and then "transfer" to the 6 back to Union Square? You'd need an exit swiper and a limited time - 12 minutes, say, or even being generous and allowing the 18 minutes that seems to figure so prominently in Metrocard calculations - to permit the transfer without a high potential for abuse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do you prevent people from doing this with busses? You don't. The costs of closing these loopholes and enforcing it exceeds the lost revenue.
Why not? The exit swiper could be programmed to identify it as a subway-subway transfer. Note that I'm not advocating doing this, I'm just saying it is technically possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are there any present built in free interchanges between above ground and underground routes? How do they work?
Sure. For instance, at Broadway Junction, you have the J and L coming in as elevateds, and the A train below ground.
You just have to take a looooooong escalator or staircase to get from one to the other.
Ferdinand Cesarano
There's a few.. they all work by lots of stairs in between :-)
161st St./River Ave: 4 (el), B/D (subway)
74th St./Broadway: 7 (el), E/F/G/R (subway)
Myrtle/Wyckoff Aves: M (el), L (subway)
Broadway/East New York: J/Z/L (el), A/C (subway)
Franklin Ave: S (el), A/C (subway)
4th Ave/9th St.: F (el), M/R (subway)
I can think of two more:
- Times Square = 7th & 8th Ave (1/2/3/9 & A/C/E) ... a very long walk
- 168th St = 1/9 & A/C ... incl. a elevator ride & a walk OVER the North bound IRT.
Mr t__:^)
He was asking about subway-elevated transfers-- both of those are subway-subway...
-Dave
I think if you have an unlimited weekly or monthly Metrocard, you can transfer between subways all you want...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I think if you have an unlimited weekly or monthly Metrocard, you can transfer between subways all you want...]
This is true, so it's up to the customer to decide which card makes the best fit, e.g.
- One day unlimited, Fun Pass, at $4.00 vs. two tokens at $3.00
- Weekly unlimited at $17.00 vs. 5x1.50x2 = 15.00, incl. 1 free ride
- etc., etc.
Mr t__:^)
I did a subway-to-subway transfer once. It was from the Junius Street station (3) to the Livonia Avenue station (L). It's a short walk, but I made it. It's all possible with the unlimited Ride MetroCard. Just so long as the transfer is made after the 18 minute "JUST USED" error expires.
A few corrections/additions:
1. Add South Ferry (1/9)-Whitehall Street (N/R)-Bowling Green (4/5) to the list.
2. "Broadway (G)-Lorimer St (L)" should be "Broadway (G)-Lorimer St (J/M)." There is already a (G)/(L) transfer at Metropolitan Av (G).
3. Fulton St (G)-Lafayette Av (C)-Atlantic/Pacific (2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R): A short walk, but feasible
4. Steinway Street (G/R)-Broadway (N): It's a longer walk. It'd be better using a Q104 to help. I don't think so. It'd be better to transfer at Queens Plaza; Shorter walk.
5. Add Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A/C/G)-Hoyt Street (2/3) to the list.
6. Ditto for Jay St (A/C/F)-Lawrence St (M/N/R)
7. Also for Broad St (J/M/Z)-Wall St (4/5)-(2/3)
8. and Grand St (B/D/Q)-Bowery (J/M) (That'd get more people to use that station!!!)
9. Also, 49 St (N/R)-50 St (1/9)-(C/E)
A couple of notes:
1. Broadway (G)-Lorimer St (J/M) MetroCard transfer in use during Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction.
2. Lex/63 (S)-Lex/59 (4/5/6/N/R) MC transfer in use during 63 St Tunnel Project.
I think that's all.
[Fulton St (G)-Lafayette Av (C)-Atlantic/Pacific (2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R): A short walk, but feasible ]
This is a very important transfer which should exist. Currently it's nearly impossible to get to the G from the Brighton line.
Such a transfer would also make the Franklin Avenue Shuttle useless.
I do not think the Broad St transfer would come into play. There is a transfer one station to the north. I like the Hoyt transfer. The Jay/Lawrence transfer might be a reality..... I also like the Atlatic/Lafayette/Fulton transfer..........
3TM
Well Saturday I made it up to town with a friend. In addition to dislocating my shoulder in Corona Park, I saw a good bit of the subways of Queens and rode the Flushing Line out to Shea. The stations along Queens Blvd are really spectacular. My friend was impressed with the stained glass windows.
But my gripe is with the West End line. Saturday was the third time I've tried to do that line and it was the third time the B was rerouted to the Sea Beach. Is it my luck or is it always rerouted?
Steve's getting upset here!:)
Wouldn't it be rerouted in only one direction?
When I was in town a week ago Saturday , we went down the center of the Sea Beach, regular B riders werent too happy, but I thought it was pretty neat to be able go down the Sea Beach center tracks (albeit VERY slowly...) A tech question tho: why does it start out on the normal 'outbound' track, then switch over to the 'inbound' track??
Outbound/Inbound... in refrence to what?
Just look at the inbound track at 8th Avenue. As you go farther down the line, you find crossties and plaster on the tracks and the third rail is warped in parts.
The section between Kings Highway and 86th Street is always maintained(that's where the B reroutes go).
I've heard that the entire inbound track will be removed soon.
Consider yourself lucky bud. You got to ride on my favorite line and the best one in the city. How lucky can you be? The same thing happened to me last summer, but I didn't gripe. It was fun riding on the Sea Beach Express tracks.
Oh I enjoyed it, believe me.
But I've done the Sea Beach 4 or 5 times and never the West End.
You might call the Transit Authority and find out where each line is running at that particular time. They could tell you if the West End is being diverted from Coney Island via the Sea Beach Express tracks.
You two are both lucky in that regard. I've never had the chance to experience an express run on the Sea Beach. OTOH, if it's a train of R-68s, well, no great loss there. I hear that back in the good old days, trains got up to, oh, 45 mph on those express tracks.
The last time I was on those tracks was on the NX Super Express!!
Why don't you check out the list of Scheduled Diversions before you plan your next trip?
The ususal pattern for non-rush hour IRT service in Brooklyn is to terminate the #5 at Bowling Green, run the #4 express to Utica, and serve other stations with the #2 and #3 local. To get to Grand Army Plaza, I frequently board a #5 to Bowling Green, switch to a #4, than catch the 2/3 at Nevins.
Recently, as a result of construction, the #4 has terminated at Atlantic Avenue. That has got me thinking -- would Brooklyn be better off if both the #5 and #5 went through to Brooklyn, but terminated at Atlantic Ave? The cost of running the #5 past Bowling Green would probably equal the savings from turning the #4 at Atlantic.
The only losers I see are the not inconsiderable number of people boarding or changing from a bus at Franklin and Utica. Everyone traveling to or from the East Side and any other station would be better off, since there would be more Lexington Express trains to transfer to. And of course, LIRR riders to Flatbush would benefit.
Your thoughts here?
This was the service pattern for many years. Both the 4 and 5 went to Atlantic Avenue during the mid-day hours. Starting some time in 1988, the headways on the 4 were increased from 10 minutes to 6 minutes in an effort to increase service on the Lexington Ave. line. The 5 terminated at Bowling Green because the increased #4 service was thought to be adequate.
...Starting some time in 1988, the headways on the 4 were increased from 10 minutes to 6 minutes in an effort to increase service on the Lexington Ave. line. The 5 terminated at Bowling Green because the increased #4 service was thought to be adequate....
Let's see, if I've got this right. Prior to the "improvement" service to Brooklyn was once every 5 minutes. After the "improvement" service is once every 6 minutes.
(Improvement)
Service went up in Manhattan, and down in Brooklyn. In NYC, that is certainly thought of as an improvement.
It was not an improvement meant for Brooklyn. They lost 2 trains per hour. However, they did get day-long express service between Atlantic and Utica. IIRC, the #4 headways were increased from 6 to 5 minutes in the mid-90's.
...the #4 headways were increased from 6 to 5 minutes in the mid-90's...
The last set of html schedules from the MTA website showd that they still had 6 minute headways in 1999.
They may have been reduced when the #5 headways were increased from 10 to 8 minutes.
Car shortage would probably interfere. I do think the 5 should go to Atlantic, though.
The one extension the 5 needs is to go to 149th late nites. To get from Dyre to 86th/Lex at 2 AM (I never would need this but someone might) involves taking 3 trains! The 5 should make express stops from 180th to 149th so people can get from the north of the Bronx to the 4 late nights with out so many transfers.
INTERESTING LATE NIGHT FACT: The A makes 57 stops on its late night runs.
And the F makes 55. The #2 makes 60. Must be rough on the conductors.
It would be even rougher if they still had to contend with external trigger boxes. That four-borough run on the CC with the R-10s had to be murder.
1. There will be 2/3 service from Utica and Franklin.
2. Ever try boarding a 3 bound for Utica during the midday construction? Try it and tell me if you feel the same way. 3. I used to live by the Utica IRT. That station is very important for people coming from E.Flatbush, Brownsville, and Canarsie via the B14, B17, and the B46 buses. I dont think that they will be very happy to take two buses to get to the subway all the way in Downtown Brooklyn......
I do not like your ideas of taking away subway service. It is all about saving money with you. Everybody is equal, whether poor or rich and therefore should get the same service...........
Sorry for going off in a tangent.....
3TM
That's not true. Obviously the poor are less than the rich when it comes to finances.
You know what I mean? Right???? Please say yes.......
3TM
Everybody is created without quality, I will not go beyond that.
I know some of our good folks here at subtalk have been lucky enough to see, and maybe even take pictures of the R142 in testing. Perhaps som of these pics can be e-mailed to Dave so they can go on the R142 page. So far, we only have nightime pics of them at the Yonkers Kawasaki yard. -Nick
Sigh! I am willing to scan my R142A photos. But the only problem is all are slides. I don't have a slide scanner nearby. I will contact my friends whether they have slide scanners.
Chaohwa
Have the best of the lot converted to 4X6 photos and scan THOSE.
wayne
I took couple R142A today & i have front #7220 while running at Gun Hill Rd & #7215 leaving the station. Also i took about 4 pictures each cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: Im going back again & this time i will be other side of station.
Okay. I will consider it after I get my slides back tomorrow. Thanks a lot, Wayne.
Chaohwa
Basically I will scan three of them.
(1) Closeup look of car 7215.
(2) Closeup look of digital illuminated sign
(3) The R142A train at Gun Hill Road with the station building as the background.
When they are ready, I will tell Dave that he can put them on the R142 car page.
Chaohwa
Ugh, never do that if you could possibly scan the slide. Chao-Hwa, I have a slide scanner (and I'm in the market for another one that has a bulk loader)-- the one I have scans negatives as well. They're well worth the investment; they scan 10x better than you'd get from a print.
-Dave
What I am going to do this evening is to scan three to four slides into floppy discs. It is cheaper than printing 4x6s. If I can find one who has slide scanner nearby, that is much better.
Anyway, I will post the slides as soon as this evening.
Chaohwa
I would like to know when was the 9th Avenue subway taken out of service and what was the reason?
[I would like to know when was the 9th Avenue subway taken out of service and what was the reason?]
It was replaced by the Eighth Avenue subway.
I would assume that safety concerns led to the termination of 9th Ave. subway service. It's dangerous running subway cars underground when no subway tunnel exist.
Seriously, I think you mean the 9th Ave. el, which was closed in 1940 because it became redundant after the 8th Ave IND opened in 1932.
Regarding the IRT, as part of the Unification deal, the 2nd Ave El north of 59th Street and the 9th Ave Els in Manhattan would close forever at 12:01am on June 12th, 1940. There were no special ceremonies held for the closing of these lines, even though the 9th Ave El was the first elevated rapid transit line in the world, starting service on July 1st, 1868 between Cortlandt Street and Battery Place. The last train on the 9th Ave El, a 7-car train filled with 500 people, left South Ferry at 11:14pm, arriving at 155th Street at 12:06am. The last train on the 2nd Ave El, a 3 car train filled with 150 people, left South Ferry shortly after at 11:16pm, arriving at 129th St at 11:51pm. With the 6th Ave El having been torn down as a result of the building of the Independent's 6th Ave subway, only the 3rd Ave El remained in service. Free transfers at 155th St, Manhattan, and 161st St in the Bronx, were made available to the Independent's Concourse line. The only remaining portion of the 9th Ave El, the "Polo Grounds Shuttle" to Burnside Ave, closed for about 1 1/2 hours at the close of 9th Ave service, to "prepare" this portion of the line for its new service pattern. The Els were torn down because the city felt the Els would run under a huge deficit, and they could not afford that. With the Independent subway providing redundant service nearby, there was no need for the elevateds anymore.
Have you looked at The History of the Independent Subway on this site?
--Mark
I would like to know when Co-Op City was built in 1968-69, why wasn't the Dyre Avenue #5 train or Pelham Bay #6 train extended to go into Co-Op City causing people to pay a double fare on the express bus?
I don't know...maybe they wanted you to walk or take a bus..and there are no more double fares...if you have a metrocard.
The idea back then was a future connection to Co-Op City would be via the wonderful new Second Ave. subway line they wree just starting to build at the time the apartment complex was completed. I think the plan back then was to take over the Pelham Bay line from the IRT, convert it to IND/BMT width, connected it up with Second Ave. on the south and extend it to Co-Op City on the north.
Didn't work out like that, did it?
[The idea back then was a future connection to Co-Op City would be via the wonderful new Second Ave. subway line they wree just starting to build at the time the apartment complex was completed. I think the plan back then was to take over the Pelham Bay line from the IRT, convert it to IND/BMT width, connected it up with Second Ave. on the south and extend it to Co-Op City on the north.]
At the time the city built the Concourse Line, there were vague plans to someday extend it into the northeast Bronx (that was long before Co-op City, of course). Nothing ever came of these plans.
According to Stan Fischler, the reason those plans ended was due to the acquisition of the Dyre line.
Phase II of the 1968 MTA "Program For Action" planned for extension of the Pelham Line to Co-op City. Lack of funding and the City's fiscal crisis ended those plans.
--Mark
Got me about a 100 of them today. 500 more to go.
Planning to paper your house?
Although I don't have the subway map as my wallpaper, My room is painted the famous TA yellow. I do have a map hanging somewhere.
Damn Right...maybe an add on annex to my house.
Why?
when we were walking to the south brooklyn railroad yards, we passed the yard on 39th st where the ta is storing the rts buses--- doug noticed 3 subway cars sitting further into the yards--- upon a closer look doug identified them as 3 q type cars
i spoke with him tonight, and he said that he checked and discovered that they were previously owned by south brooklyn---- anyone know more about these cars?
I think those cars were the alcohol train. I last remember them being kept in CI.
Not that having a bar car on the subway wouldn't be interesting, but I'm sure the alcohol train had to do with something else. I'm just not sure what. Could you explain in a little more detail?
Alchohol is used as a de-icer.
But, weren't those Q cars used as "reach" cars for the pump train?
That's what they were. Demotored Q Types that operated on the pump train for a number of years. According to Sansone's evolution book, the cars in question are one Q Type Trailer, 1612B, and two QX control trailer cars, 1630B, and 1636B. How do you like that? It seems that the QXs survived into the 90s, even though virtually all of that class was scrapped in the 50s!
Unfortunately, the cars lack the equipment that would make them functional, and combined with the overall condition of the wooden bodies, makes them ineligible for preservation. When there's nothing to save, that's it.
-Stef
Jeff H., any chance Branford would be interested in one of them?
I know they look like "hopeless cases", but there's still two of them that are in some condition to be refurbished.
Doug aka BMTman
ROTFL!
Maybe as chicken coops for our neighbor's farm yard.
Not much left inside or out worth preserving in terms of parts
either.....maybe the Peck 40 trailers for shop trucks.
At a certain point, so much work is required to restore cars that you might as well build one from scratch using modern materials.
They were at one time on the list for the Railway Preservation Society when they were in CIY. The trucks and drawheads may be the only parts worth saving as they still have the Van Dorn link and pin drawheads last they were on TA property. Unless a last minute buyer ploped down some cash, they were on the scrap list. Those car bodies are not worth saving.
Last night, two rocket scientists found out that surfing on the roof of an E-Train (which is always in the tunnel) can be dangerous. At 10:50 PM, two youths were struck by support beams in the tunnel between 65th Street & Roosevelt Avenue. One fell to the roadbed and suffered massive head injuries. The other fell between cars and was 'rescued' by two passengers. Service in Queens was disrupted for 1:25 while NYPD sorted out the mess.
[Last night, two rocket scientists found out that surfing on the roof of an E-Train (which is always in the tunnel) can be dangerous. At 10:50 PM, two youths were struck by support beams in the tunnel between 65th Street & Roosevelt Avenue. One fell to the roadbed and suffered massive head injuries. The other fell between cars and was 'rescued' by two passengers. Service in Queens was disrupted for 1:25 while NYPD sorted out the mess.]
I trust that the judges' panel for the 2000 Darwin Awards is following their conditions with considerable interest.
got a link to the story so i can send the story to the guys at darwinawards.com?
And another crew gets the shaft by being taken out of service for the actions of 2 jerks, gets grilled by the cops and TA bigshots, pees in the cup at Jay St., gets to see the TA "doctor", and gets the ultimate punishment by having to work platforms at least till the results of the urine are returned (guilty till proven innocent?).
Don't forget: the families of these two Einsteins will obviously sue Transit (for operating the train) and the City (for building the QBL line 70 years ago), AND seek first-degree murder charges against the train operator, the conductor, the station agent at their point of entry, and every passenger on the train in question - all because these guys, of their own free will, CONSCIOUSLY DECIDED to be stupid.
Good thing the "E" doesn't have REDBIRDS..
otherwise the birds' REALLY be sentenced.
But the R32s are close. To me, they are the B-Division Redbirds (as well as the R27 and R30)
I wonder if the two Einsteins were also "great graffiti artists," like one of the surfers who got themselves wiped out on the Sea Beach line earlier this year supposedly was.
03/08/2000
Gotham Bus Co,
Pardon my sarcasm, but something good may come of this. The TA will be forced post stickers warning pasengers that riding on top of subway car roofs is dangerous !
Bill Newkirk
Point taken.
That reminds me of the burglar who won a huge award because the owners of the store he was robbing had not posted a sign on the roof warning of the danger of falling through the skylight!
It also reminds me of the guy whose family won a judgment against the Chicago Transit Authority because the "Do Not Walk On Tracks" sign was only in English!
I'm not usually like this, but I read that post about those two. I laughed at least an hour!
I feel sorry for the people that got hung up because of these two. One probably had his earphones on and didn't hear the ceiling approach.
Perhaps the TA will need to now install barbed wire fences atop each car, like building roof tops, to prevent these idiotic stunts.
Joe Caronetti
Common sense was apparently repealed during the Johnson Administration. Thus "deadman" controls on lawn mowers, extra short cords on electric drills, warning stickers on ladders, and lots of other stuff that our forefathers knew what NOT to do with.
The yo-yos that got themselves eliminated didn't have a lick of common sense - they were obviously born after 1968.
Warning stickers on subway car roofs is another example of "cradle to the grave" care thinking.
And you New Yorkers say we Californians are strange. Those two fruitcakes beat anything I've ever heard of before. That tells me New Yorkers are nuttier than we are. I know of no one who would try such a stupid stunt. I only hope those guys pull through and learn the error of their dumb acts. A couple of schlamiels (wrong spelling)
How is it that the rutgers tunnel has not received welded rail?
I notice on some curves the rails are not welded, is this because of faster wear?
Could not double lengths be installed {78 ft} to make for a quiter
and smoother Ride?
Where else on the IND still needs welding?
Speaking of clacketty-clack, I was on the J train the other day. Not only are the rails not welded; it seems that they aren't even tightly bolted. If any part of the system could use better rails, it's the Jamaica El.
How are welded rail delivered to the site, where it will be placed,
section by section {39ft} then welded or prewelded and put on a special flat car train , similar to LIRR, or combo of both?
How many types of plates or footings are used, again i have seen several. Spring like huge paper clip, top and bottom padded metal plates. Any others? Any on concret ties yet?
I'm in Staten Island Sunday night and channel surfing. Low and behold 10 minutes into the Program I find Transit Transit. They are just finishing up a segment on the WTC switch replacement. Showing the concrete pour (I've looked, lousy job; ask BMT Man too).
They then go into a segment on Co-Branded metrocard. They interview a designer and make sure to meantion that not a single penny comes from the farebox to pay for this.
Then it is off to metrocard collecting. They go to the metrocard show they just had in some resturant in Manhattan (my good friends are into this as you can see not me. Didn't pay too much attention).
Low and Behold, there is our Thurston. 15 to 20 second spot interview of him.
With more and more subtalkers getting into the news (HeyPaul is goint to be in print) this is sure a place to hang out.
Way to go Thurston.
And thanks Lou, for waking me from a coma to tell me that our own MC maven, Thurston, was featured on the show.
Doug aka BMTman
Sitting next to me as the tape was rolling was ..... the BMT man.
They filmed me twice, the second for about 10 minutes (at least it seemed like a very long time). They also caught Bill Newkirk and maybe a few other Subtalkers on film at the same event (they spent quite a long time at the event, which was packed).
This Wednesday I'll be able to see myself on the LI Public Access station. I'm expecting to see a piece done at the Central Elect. Shop at Woodside where I'm sure to recognize several that I deal with on a regular basis (as part of my job ... I do do a little work now and then). I know that folks from cTc, LI Bus & NYCDOT were invited to the filming at CES. In case you don't know the CES does turnstile and farebox repairs along with many other electronnic parts of the subway cars & buses.
BTW, there was/is going to be a TA Museum tour of CES.
Mr t__:^)
the tour will be 3/18/2000=-sold out!(Yes- I have my reservation.)
Subway-Buff, Tell Ted, Jerry, John, Steve, Bob, Leon, Alex & Art I said hello. Seriously I deal with quite a few of the folks there. There are many good people there with Ted Hrycyszyn being the "Chief". Ask to see the poster of the old subway cars in his office.
Suggestion 1: Don't try to drive there as there's no place to park. The G/R stop at Northern is just 2 blocks away. Also the QSC Q66 and cTc Q18 go there.
Suggestion 2: Walk down Northern (West) to Woodside & have lunch in a old Queens Surface trolley waiting room. It's a Pizza Hut now, but was preserved on the outside the way it was. The mall & parking lot was where the trolleys were housed.
Suggestion 3: Amtrak trains from CT ply the el that crosses Northern there, so have your camera ready.
Mr t__:^)
Is the Central Electric Shop in Woodside a TA facilty?
Yes it is
With more and more subtalkers getting into the news (HeyPaul is goint to be in print) this is sure a place to hang out.
Maybe we should run for Mayor!
Our name recognition might not be good, but our "negatives" can't be too high. Yet.
Has anyone seem the new "Madison Square Garden" signs on the 34th St IND platform? They did a decent job replicating the old IND typefont.
BTW, does anyone know the name of the font? These days, when the old Star Trek logo and Charles Schulz' handwriting have been digitized and are available as typefonts, it'd be cool to have the IND font commercially available. It'd work well in art deco type layouts.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Unfortunately, the latest MC's to be released is simply a re-issue of the Amex "upsidedown" cards.
I purchased one from the fare control attendant at Rockaway Pkwy.
Doug aka BMTman
I tried to get one at Livonia on Monday but the station agent did not have any. I think that the station agents at Livonia are from another planet :):(
3TM
03/08/2000
Doug aka BMT Man,
Did you check the card carefully to see if it's identical?
I call it the American Distress card! Isn't flying the American flag upside down a distress signal ?
Bill Newkirk
I believe it's identical. Perhaps the Amex numbers are different?
Doug aka BMTman
Eye have seen some subtle differences in batches of MC, e.g. there is a "Healthy City" series where a "Living Longer" card has different folks in the graph photo; NY Univ. there were three different fonts in the graphics; AT&T the four are two and two, i.e. 20 minutes and 11 rides; school passes the new ones have numbers under the "S"; Emigrant set of 8, I think one of them has a difference; Jackie Robinson one has a Queens County logo, the other doesn't.
BTW, I'm up to 167 NYC & 78 out-of-town metro cards plus various transfers & tickets that I've been able to trade with SubTalkers, e.g. I have all 12 Atlanta 1999 monthly passes thanks to a dear friend there.
P.S. I still find this hobby a lot of FUN because I avoid money transactions, e.g. folks will send me a MC Holder, or a ticket or a local token (I have a token & coin collection too) if they don't have anything to trade.
P.P.S. We're about to have a retirement party for a long term employee & I'm expected to PRESENT the honoree a bunch of tokens & MCs, at which time I'll say "they're just like you, they don't work anymore". I started doing this a few years ago & now it's part of the roast, but all done it good taste ... some of it even still has value, i.e. I have a few "Silver Certificates" that will be included.
Mr t__:^)
Today's NY Times has a story about the MTA rejecting posting advertising by a consumer pressure group to press Gov. Pataki to enact the five-year capital program. The ads suggested that trains might be overcrowded, in a graphic manner that appears to have offended the MTA.
Interesting. Wonder how $2.00 / gallon gas prices are going to affect the NYC subway (and for that matter, other subway systems in the US). DO you suppose overcrowding willbecome more of a problem? ;)
--Mark
($2.00 per gallon gas)
Most people who could use mass transit but nonetheless drive aren't going to change because of $2.00 per gallon gas. Gasoline is just a small part of operating a car. Short run people will just absorb the cost. Oil demand is inelastic.
A shortage, on the other hand, might get people thinking about long run decisions. Businesses might take another look at Downtown Brooklyn or Jersey City, instead of Greenwich or Morris County, for their new location. People might think twice about that SUV. A real gas problem this year might be a good reminder, which might change people's decisions in the long run.
From the point of view of investment in public transit and alternative energy, a little reminder that petroleum is a) finite and b) controlled by a small number of unstable countries couldn't hurt.
[Most people who could use mass transit but nonetheless drive aren't going to change because of $2.00 per gallon gas. Short run people will just absorb the cost. Oil demand is inelastic.
A shortage, on the other hand, might get people thinking about long run decisions. Businesses might take another look at Downtown Brooklyn or Jersey City, instead of Greenwich or Morris County, for their new location. People might think twice about that SUV. A real gas problem this year might be a good reminder, which might change people's decisions in the long run.]
Prolonged high gasoline prices or shortages also might bring that perennial bridesmaid called telecommuting to the altar once and for all. For several years now, we've keet hearing that telecommuting is the Next Big Thing, just around the bend, coming soon, and so on. Yet its hype has never quite managed to live up to reality. Partly that's due to employer inertia, partly to the way the home vs. workplace midset is so deeply ingrained, but at least to some extent it's because driving to work is still no huge deal in most places at most times. But if gasoline gets up to two bucks a gallon (possible but not likely), or even worse if 1970's-style gas lines return, telecommuting will seem a lot more attractive. What it might entail is "hybrid" telecommuting, in which people work mainly at home but come into the office a day or two each week. Time will tell, I suppose.
[Gasoline is just a small part of operating a car.]
That's for sure. I just got a call from the garage where I dropped off my car this morning. Turns out that pesky oil leak is courtesy of a bad head gasket ... a most unwelcome $urprise.
(Hybrid telecommuting)
This could be a big deal for the subway too, especially if those coming in for meetings do so in the middle of the day rather than at 9:00 a.m. Anything that speads the rush hour will aid the finacial picture at the TA. The question is, with the whole rush hour mentality at the MTA, will they accomodate the riders by increasing base service?
[(Hybrid telecommuting)
This could be a big deal for the subway too, especially if those coming in for meetings do so in the middle of the day rather than at 9:00 a.m. Anything that speads the rush hour will aid the finacial
picture at the TA.]
And don't forget the commuter rail lines. Their ridership's heavy rush-hour concentration is a big reason why the farebox recovery ratios are so dismal.
Welcome to the club! Hope they do a better job on your car than the mechanics did last summer on my wife's - she blew the engine last month on her Mustang while travelling, partially because the idiots last summer put the wrong head gaskets on when they rebuilt the heads. Of course, it only came with a 3 month warranty...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If they installed the wrong part, you're entitled to sue for damages. The cost of the original job, and the cost of repairing the mistake (or damage from it) Easy to do in small claims! (Been There, Done That Successfuly Twice!)
-Hank
If they installed the wrong part, you're entitled to sue for damages. The cost of the original job, and the cost of repairing the mistake (or damage from it) Easy to do in small claims! (Been There, Done That Successfuly Twice!) OH, IANAL, but I worked on the Small Claims Information Project when I volunteered for a short time with NYPIRG.
-Hank
"IANAL"
Either you're telling us you're anal, or this is another one of those funky internet acronyms.
"IANAL"
I Am Not A Lawyer
-Dave
(IANAL = I am not a lawyer)
There ought to be a glossary of these things somewhere on the net. I figured out IMHO on my own, but I still don't get LOL.
[(IANAL = I am not a lawyer)
There ought to be a glossary of these things somewhere on the net. I figured out IMHO on my own, but I still don't get LOL.]
LOL = laughing out loud.
Some others you'll see:
ROTFL = rolling on the floor laughing (a bit stronger than LOL)
IIRC = if I recall correctly (when you're fairly but not 100% sure)
ISTR = I seem to recall (a bit more doubt than IIRC)
BRB = be right back (usually seen in chat)
RTM = read the manual (in response to a stupid question)
RTFM = read the [deleted] manual (in response to a REALLY stupid question)
I got one that I'd use sometimes.
FSSR abbrev. For Some Strange Reason.
I was riding on the M train, when FSSR the train went up Manhattan's Broadway instead of Brooklyn's.
IMHO, I think LOL stands for Larry Otto Littlefield
i imagine your middle name is otto, since it has two
repeated letters, which is a hallmark of your first
and last names
seriously, or rather humorously, lol stands for lots
of lunatics or more commonly lots of laughs....
DITTO.........
I found a site with a whole list of abbreviations (like IMHO, LOL, etc.) and the "smileys" are listed too.
Click here to go there.
These days, there had to be one.
if gasoline gets up to two bucks a gallon (possible but not likely)
I hope you're right, but there's a gas station just off the Thruway at exit 14B on Airmont Road that's already at $1.79 / gallon .....
--Mark
"Most people who could use mass transit but nonetheless drive aren't going to change because of $2.00 per gallon gas. Gasoline is just a small part of operating a car. Short run people will just absorb the cost. Oil demand is inelastic."
But that's presuming that the two choices are mutually exclusive: either you have a car and drive it to work every day or you don't have a car and ride transit everyday. Oddly enough, there's a fair number of people, living in the suburbs but working in the city, who do both, by using park-and-ride. Also, some people I know drive into work some days and take the train on other days, based mainly on how much stuff they have to carry on a given day. The price of gas may make many of these "hybrid" commuters decide that carrying stuff on the train isn't so bad that they have to drive downtown. :^)
I realize a fair number of cities have really crappy transit systems that aren't going to entice anyone out of their cars. But, as you put it, we're talking about the class of people for whom transit is a viable option but who drive for their entire trip anyway. (All those morons stuck creeping along on the Kennedy Expressway at rush hour while the Blue Line trains speed past them!!) For this group, high gas prices could be the "last straw" that pushes them to make a relatively cost-less *short-run* decision to ride transit, along the lines of "It can't hurt to give it a try." (Enormous highway construction projects can have the same effect -- reconstruction of the Stevenson Expy. here in Chicago has increased Orange Line and Metra Heritage Corridor ridership, the latter to the degree that an additional round trip was added to the line, which had only two round trips each weekday.)
The problem then becomes, especially if the responsible agency didn't anticipate or adjust to the increased demand, the experience can be so bad, people say: "I can't wait until the construction is done/gas prices go down/the repairs are finished so I can drive to work again, instead of riding in this lumbering bus/oversized sardine can!" This is why new projects have high success rates: they aren't yet working at capacity, or anywhere near it. The ride is still quick and comfortable. This attracts more riders. If done right, as the Baltimore LRT, LA Metrolink, COASTER, and a few others are doing, you can continue to meet current demand, and be prepared for future demand, all while continually increasing ridership.
-Hank
"especially if the responsible agency didn't anticipate or adjust to the increased demand"
I agree. If the transit authorities don't sufficiently accomodate the additional passengers, then they've blown a golden opportunity served to them on a silver platter (enough precious metals there?) by the Highway Department (or Highway Division in a Transportation Department) -- an agency usually NOT in the business of doing favors for the transit agencies. :^)
With the Stevenson Expy. (I-55) reconstruction here (oy veh, what a mess!), Metra added one round trip a day to the still-pitiful Heritage Corridor line -- now three round trips, strictly on weekdays and strictly inbound in the morning rush and outbound in the evening rush. I think that CTA added some Orange Line runs, but I don't recall how many off the top of my head. To Metra and CTA's credit, they're both running a LOT more ads recently on radio and television. The ads, however, focus generally on the hassles of driving and parking, and don't refer directly to the Stevenson reconstruction or suggest specific alternates.
When the first energy crisis hit in 1973-74, the Transit Authority introduced its Sunday half-fare program to try to get more people on mass transit. That's where on a Saturday night or Sunday you would buy a token and get a paper return ticket you would give to the token clerk going home. The clerk would then let you in through the slam gate.
(When I was home from college and commuting to summer jobs, on some Sundays I would buy a token, walk to another station and get on using the return ticket. I would repeat this procedure all day, and save the tokens I bought for work that coming week. The daily Funpass before the fact!)
This proved to be such a success that it lasted all the way through the second gas shortage to the 1980 fare hike.
Of course, the TA now offers plenty of discount incentives, the results of which are very evident when riding the trains or buses. If gas prices continue to go up the way they have, I shudder to think how much MORE crowded conditions will get.
Good economy + higher population + higher gas prices + lack of money and/or desire to build more lines = higher ridership + worse overcrowding. A real double-edged sword. Pick your poison!
That was a very interesting atricle. I liked the anti-censorship arugement that the MTA's position is basically that someone riding in an overcrowded train would only realize that the train was overcrowded after they saw/read the ad. At which said person would then realize how much they hated the subway and never ride it again. As you can see, its laughable. FYI my school started a news paper readership programme this year. We get fell copies of the NY Times, USA Today and Middletown Press 5 days a week. Big stacks are left in open bins around campus for student pick up. Cost was about $30,000 and came from the Presiden't Discresionary Fund. It sure beats reading 4 day old Times' in the Library.
Meanwhile the TA allowed the StrapHanger's Association to place posters depicting a sardine can or a snail asking you if the pictures reminded you of your last ride. Maybe when the rail control center goes in with global positioning systems installed on the R68s, you will be greeted at 72 Street with a bulletin "5 minutes before the next train, 5 minutes to 59 Street. Have a nice day."
in today's daily news, there was still no article about heypaul--- how can this be?--- thurston is starring in transit transit--- bob d. frequently is written about in relation to the trolley museum and the atlantic avenue tunnel--- eric got on tv after his fine efforts to bring about a transit strike--- doug gets his photographs and thoughts printed at paul matus's website--- todd has his own radio program--- david pirmann and this website have been written up in the new york times--- every time i go into a deli i have to look at pigs on the boars head label--- karl b has been featured in a lionel video--- mark w has been featured in brooklyn bridge magazine--- harvey is on a wanted poster in the post office
hey--- don't get me wrong--- i don't begrudge these people's good fortune ( except harvey )--- haven't i made enough of a public spectacle of myself to warrant media attention?
it must be the ugly rumors that disloyal officers like jeff rosen spread about me--- the nerve of him to play "old yellowstain" on this website yesterday--- and then the rumors about steaming over the tow line--- defective equipment is all that it was --- doug can do nothing wrong, but heypaul is held up in contempt here--- but i had them when it came to who posted messages using my handle--- and i would have found the impostor, if it weren't for the miserable performance of my disloyal officers...
Don't complain. I can't even get a report with my zoning proposals published.
Hey, I've tried to get someone to read my proposal to pay for the 2nd Ave. subway construction by mobilizing welfare workers to comb the streets for bottles and cans to collect the deposit. For some inexplicable reason, no one takes me seriously.
hey chris--- i think you're developing into quite a
wit--- what with your proposals for the 1,000,000th
post--- i think you are kidding about funding the
2nd ave subway by having welfare people scour the
streets for deposit cans--- although with some of
your political views, i am not entirely sure
if you are serious about it, it sounds like a
typical government attempt to interfere with private
industrious homeless people trying to get up enough
money to eat, get a drink, or just stay alive---
and larry--- you have to complain--- remember it's
the squeaking mind that gets electroshocked (not
very funny) and ( no i have never been
electroshocked, they tried but my mind overpowered
their machines--- i blew the integrated circuits on
4 machines--- drs. howard, fine, and howard were about to connect me to the northeastern power grid, when i miraculously get well)
Hey, I'm a conservative, but not THAT conservative. LOL.
Did everyone cast their meaningless primary vote today (NY and CT only)?
If not, vote McCain (shameless political plug)
Being an avid Knick fan I had no choice but to vote for Bradley (besides I couldn't stomach voting for that "used car salesman", Al Gore).
I was hoping that Walt "Clyde" Fraser or Willis Reed would have been running as Presidental hopefuls but that is not the case. Maybe one of them'll be tapped as Bradley Vice-Presidential candidates? ;-)
(PS I had McCain under consideration, but I always give my vote to the true underdog)
Doug aka BMTman
thanks doug for posting political comments under a subject title where people are expecting my wit and wisdom--- i see you are joining in with jeff rosen to belittle me--- it's a good thing for both of you that the daily news article never got printed...
I love New York's arcane election process. I couldn't vote for McCain directly. I had to vote for a "delegate" supporting him in my electoral district. In a machine which looked like it should've been retired in 1969. Go figure.
Those mechanical voting machines may have been old, but they were reliable. I especially liked the sound those levers made when you pulled them; they sounded a lot like the trigger caps on the R-1/9s.
That's actually one of the smartest ways to choose a candidate in this day and age. I still haven't figured out which candidate is less repulsive, Bush or Gore. Maybe I should just throw my vote away and choose a third party candidate.
Or you can ask for an affdavit ballot and write in whomever you want. Perfectly legal, even if you vote for Mickey Mouse.
In Flordia they have had to draft special legislation because Mickey Mouse was actually winning elections. Basically you have to be a real person now to win. There was also that guy who changed him name to Absolutely Nobody in order to win an election w/ 2 unpopular canidates.
All kinding aside, but I have heard that one of those notorious computer hacker guys actually had his name legally changed to Phiber Optic!
Doug aka BMTman
I think that dude needs a girlfriend ...
That's a good one. A couple of Denver radio personalities read off a list of funny names once. Al Coholic, Anita Drink, Stu Pidasse, among others.
No K. O. Pectate, though. Or Rusty Redbird.-)
Gotta e-mail some of these to Matt Groening ...
You like those, eh? We used to come up with some real good ones in college and send them in to those magazine subscription services. Some of them were pretty crude.
Here's one I heard on a later Honeymooners' skit: Harry Vederci.
Some couple whose last name was Hill actually named their kid Bunker.
Sal Minella
Bob Wire
Chuck Wagon
Richard Hurtz
Mona Lot
Willie Maker
...
Justin Case
Homer Sexual
Hugh Jass
Amanda Huginkiss
Seymour Butts
I.P. Freely
03/11/2000
Ben Dover
Neil Downe
O.Howie Farted
Seymour Hare
Or Seymour Butts
Henry Longfinger
and Claude Balls
A whole list of these names was on book chat on last night's (this morning's) episode of SNL.
Since you have been oinking so loudly about off-topic posts, why don't you take your own such wallowings to your own off-topic forum?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There needs to be a consensus to move it there. In addition, the person to whom you are responding must be a member. Why don't you join?
Then there's:
Ima Dufus
Rick Shaw (I knew a fellow by that name in college)
Ida Nough
Hatta Nuff
Lota Dough
avid
How about Doug Graves
Getting alittle racy there's:
Dick Gazinya
since my new found fame, i have registered the "heypaul" handle, and it is only to be used on a subject heading with messages directly relating to me--- any continued use of the "heypaul" logo with adolescent posts about funny names will be an unauthorized use of my handle and viewed as a possible attempt to demean and diminish the "heypaul" logo--- the "heypaul" logo usually assures the reader of highly thought out, well written material... people have the right to expect such from posts bearing my name...
OK, how about:
Bill Melater
Hal E. Tosis
Jim Nasticks
U. R. Anass
Do you remember the Delany cards?
Mike Hunt
avid
Your post reminds me of a budget shortfall in one of our school districts some years ago. One of our news radio stations was interviewing the school superintendent about this and how they were going to come up with enough money, and he remarked that someone suggested holding a bake sale. He took it in stride, and quipped, "Well it would have to be the biggest one in history."
Like Rondey Dangerfield you just get no respect. My wife won't even let me play your recording of the R-9 on the CC in the car :-( and it's just no fun playing it while I'm alone.
Mr t__:^)
While at the check-out counter of a Duane-Reed on my lunch-hour today, I thought I saw a news article in the Enquirer on popular TV-sitcom dad Bill Cosby getting caught in an compromising position with a "starlet" inside an R-9 cab?
Can this be confirmed????
If so, does that count as media attention for our beloved heypaul?
Doug aka BMTman
HeyPaul,
You too can be featured at rapidtransit.net.
We require:
1) An interesting topic.
2) Good writing skills.
3) Inclusion of illustrations a big plus.
3) Authors whose reflection appears in mirrors.
4) Availability for press interviews at all times of month, including full moons.
Send an outline of your story idea and affidavits from two doctors (graduates of U.S. medical universities preferred) to thirdrail@rapidtransit.net.
Tell us Groucho sent you.
Those bastards at the New York Times make mistakes, and don't even acknowledge them when I send them corrections. I'm referring to a gaffe a year ago involving a write up in Footlights, on page E1, where they mentioned that it was under Peter the Great's intervention that Russia switched to the Gregorian Calendar, when in fact, it was Lenin. Did they post a correction? NO! Of course, I'm sure my name wouldn't be on it, as it's not like I sent anything that should be in the Letters section as opposed to the Corrections section.
you're not telling the folks the whole story---
the way i understood it, you sent your correction in with a picture of yourself, and offered to do a corrections column if they would put your picture and name up as a byline
well-- the times loss is our gain, as we are fortunate here on subtalk to have your critical eye on everyone's posts......
That is not true! This was before I was a NOTORIOUS P.I.G. when nobody cared about the fact I wasn't a member of the ruling species. The I discovered the BOARSHEVIKS and the PIGVOLUTION! I sent no pictures!
They would have been too embarrased about being corrected by pigs:-)
By the time Russia adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1917, the Julian calenday had gotten so far out of whack that 13 days had to be dropped instead of 11, as was the case in 1582.
Does anyone have any further info on the "last day" of the PCCs?
It was supposed to be March 24th, but it has also been suggested that that date may be postponed somewhat. I'd like to take a vacation trip down to NYC on or about the last day; it would be nice to put it off till the Spring (longer days/better pix) if possible.
Can anyone help?
There was a thread yesterday that said it has been postponed - no definate date yet, though. I'm sure we'll hear when it is known.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, er Mr (or perhaps Ms, though I will assume it's Mr since transit buffs are generally male).....Anon - e - Mouse.
Yes, it's Mr. - at least I hope so, considering I'm father of four and grandfather of two :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone have any further info on the "last day" of the PCCs?
It was supposed to be March 24th, but it has also been suggested that that date may be postponed somewhat. I'd like to take a vacation trip down to NYC on or about the last day; it would be nice to put it off till the Spring (longer days/better pix) if possible.
Can anyone help?
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-03-07/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-5920
.asp
A daily news article about two people who got hurt this morning train serfing. It was abot five this morning at the 74st station on the Queens Blvd. line.
it was earlier then that I heard it on a traffic report at 12:30 last night that service was suspended for a police investigation
An old question arises again:
To what degree is government (or any organization) responsible to protect people from their own stupidity? When are otherwise intelligent people no longer responsible for their own behavior?
That URL doesn't work:
Try this: 2 Injured "Subway Surfing," In Hosp.
While on my ride home yesterday, I spied a set of R-68's (no, I neglected to get the #s) at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, on the southbound side. The cars had 'B' Line destination markings on the ends.
The camera crew was setting up their lighting equipment and I saw some of the station pillars dressed up with green masking material and prop signage indication 'Spring Street'.
I assume this filming may be going on today as well, so I will try to get the car #'s if I can.
Doug aka BMTman
Oy!!! There is no Spring Street on the B Line. There isn't even one in the B-Division. How come they couldn't borrow an R62A and sign them up as a 6 Train?
I can only assume that the production crew would end up changing the route marker to A, C, or E so that the show would have some accuracy (even though the R-68's don't run on the 8th Ave. Line).
Doug aka BMTman
There is a Spring St Station on the B-Divison. It is on 6 Ave, local stop on A, C, E.
Spring Street is also on the C and E trains as well as the 6.
Um, Spring and 6th Ave is a local stop on the C and E. I'm sure I'm not the first to point that out.
YES there is - Spring Street on the "C" and "E", Chinese blue tile with even darker blue border.
I can't picture Spring Street with Hoyt Street Kelly Green tile. Did they leave the wall tile as "Hoyt" or did the car cover it?
Wayne
I recall seeing Hoyt wall tiles left alone. I believe the cars blocked out most of the Hoyt wall tiles that would be in the shot.
Doug aka BMTman
Interesting factoid about that Hoyt/Schermerhorn platform ....
There's signs for Hoyt street on the outside of the pillars nearest to the wall. You'd have to be ON THE TRAIN to see the signs.
Now considering that side of the platform hasn't seen service since 1945 makes me wonder why those relatively new signs that say "Hoyt" were placed there ... where they CAN'T BE SEEN BY ANYONE .....
(If anyone has my 7/23/95 D-Type video, you can see the signs on the pillars as the Nostalgia Train is returning to the Transit Museum ....)
--Mark
Is that on the tiled pillar side or the I-beam side? I recall seeing black/white signs flush on the green I-beams on that side.
They have matching (new) hanging signs on the closed platforms as well.
When did they close the far east end exit/mezzanine?
Wayne
FWIW, in Crocodile Dundee 2, the side with the tiled pillars was used.
Let's see, how many disguises does that make?
In Nighthawks, it was dressed up as 57th St., then 42nd St.
In The Warriors, it was made up to be 96th St.
In Crocodile Dundee 2, it played itself! Imagine that!! (They didn't have to dub in those door chime sounds for the R-38s, IMHO.)
And now this.
More recently, it was used in "Now and Again" - I think it was the episode where Mr. Weisman has to track down the "Eggman" who uses genetically-altered eggs to spread a deadly poison, and of course he has to target the NYC subways. An R-68 was used in this episode. Mrs. Weisman gets kissed on the subway platform by her reconstructed husband. However, I don't recall seeing what name was used to disguise Hoyt-Schemerhorn
Wall Street. They show a closeup of the hero next to a pillar shortly before the kissing shot in the intro each week.
I wenty through there today and saw the following names on the tile- in a different type style:
Spring, Wall St, Delancey, Franklin.
They appear to be vinyl stick on signs
THAT'S a busy station!
You sure it was Law & Order? Among other shows, SVU, (the L&O spinoff), Third Watch and Spin City film around NYC, as well as any number of films (Shaft 2000 is currently shooting) and location shooting for NYPD Blue is also done in the city.
-Hank
I was riding the first car and the T/O must've stuck his head out the window because I heard him ask one of the technicians on the station platform what was being shot, and the guy answered 'Law & Order'.
Doug aka BMTman
On the subject of trains on TV, does anybody out there watch The Sopranos and also have a familiarity with Metro North or LIRR equipment? There is a shot of a train in the opening credits that don't appear to have NJ Transit markings.
I saw the Spring St sign midday on my LOCAL A, I thnk somethig happened at Chambers?
$64,000 question?
The C line name is known as:
A. Chester
B. Charlie
C. Christina
I heard the A line T/O mention it to me when I was talking to her at Jay St......
3TM
This is easy for all you SubTalkers..........
Can i use one of my lifelines?
It's B. Charlie, BTW, where do they get the names from for these lines anyway?
I don't know where these came from but can someone add to this list?
B - Bravo
C - Charlie
D - Delta
N - Nancy
Q - Quincy
Names like "November" for N (which has superseded "Nancy") are military in origin.
David
The "official" phonetic alphabet, also used in air traffic control, is:
alpha
bravo
charlie
delta
echo
foxtrot
golf
hotel
india
juliet
kilo
lima
mike
november
oscar
papa
quebec
romeo
sierra
tango
uniform
victor
whiskey
xray
yankee
zulo
R: Romeo.
3TM
N: Never
R: Rarely
A... Apple
E... Echo
F... Fox
R... Robert (alternate is Romeo)
As another poster said N is sometimes Nancy. Depending who is at control you may hear either name or even both! When they do tower checks of the radio they'll call "Stilwell Nancy".
Terminal shortcut names :
South Ferry......... The Ferry
World Trade Center.. The Trade
White Plains Rd..... The Plains
Phonetic Alphabet. Used a lot on the radio. There's an official version, used by HAM operators and the military, and the unofficial version, which varies from user to user.
Phonetic Alphabet:
A-Alpha
B-Bravo
C-Charlie
D-Delta
E-Echo
F-Fox (or Foxtrot)
G-Golf
H-Hotel
I-India
J-Juliet
K-Kilo
L-Lima
M-Mike
N-November
O-Oscar
P-Papa
Q-Quebec
R-Romeo
S-Sierra
T-Tango
U-Uniform
V-Victor
W-Whisky
X-X-ray
Y-Yankee
Z-Zulu
FDNY usually uses these, NYPD usually uses names or colors (ie, Y-Yellow, N-Nancy) Each department using a code usually develops their own, and makes all persons use it, lest someone be misunderstood.
-Hank
NYPD uses "Zebra" for Z
Last night about 6:15pm passing thru H&S , at the west end of the southbound wall my little eye did spy "Wall" "Fulton" "Delancy" and
"Spring"
Thats a busy station!
There is also " Franklin" and all these are repeated at various locations!
Let's hope it's still there Monday - I've got to check THIS out.
Wayne
YOU JUST WON $64,000..........
3TM
I've heard it referred to as Charlie.
Were there ever doors at the entrances to subway stations?
The doors at the entrance to the Transit Museum seem like vintage doors. I understand they have to lock up the museum at night, but they look like they could have been original to the station.
If there were doors, I'm assuming they were removed due to vandalism.
So were there doors? When did they disappear?
I remember there being doors at the entrances to stations along the Brighton line in the 50s and 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
Most elevated and surface-level station entries have doors, but I don't think I've ever seen doors on an underground entrance.
-Hank
Were there ever doors at the entrances to subway stations?
The doors at the entrance to the Transit Museum seem like vintage doors. I understand they have to lock up the museum at night, but they look like they could have been original to the station.
If there were doors, I'm assuming they were removed due to vandalism.
So were there doors? When did they disappear?
Don't know about IND stations but, I do know that the Bedford Park Blvd. Staion on the 4 line in the Bronx has doors. I tused to have more but the removed the inner ones some years ago.
I do believe however that the doors on the IND station used as the Transit museum were added as they do not have them on the back stairway or any of the 6 closed stairways in that station.
Peace,
Andee
Thanks for the info.
03/14/2000
One reason why the Transit Museum has those doors is to keep out the cold in the winter. So the reason is weather related.
Bill Newkirk
Only place I know of with doors is the IRT Control House entrance to the Bowling Green station (4,5). Of course it wasn't built as an "entrance".
Shifting gears, is this the only underground station that has a fare control at ground level?
no there is the 72nd st station and many others
Clark Street IRT also has doors and a street level entrance
How about a couple of blocks away at South Ferry with the big glass doors and turnstiles on the street level.
Broadway-East New York has doors and fare control at ground level, after which you can go downstairs to the 'A' and 'C' or up the escalator to the 'J', 'L' and 'Z'.
I've never gotten off at any of these stations, but according to the line descriptions elsewhere in this site, Hunts Point on the '6', Grant Avenue on the 'A' (whose entrance structure can be seen from Conduit Boulevard) and Bushwick/Aberdeen on the 'L' also have street level fare control. These are the last stops before their resepctive lines become elevated, so they're probably less shallow than is normal.
This may be cheating due to topography, but if you enter 181st ('A'), 190th ('A') or 191st ('1','9') through their long access tunnels rather than down the elevators, their fare controls could be considered 'street level'.
Also, street level fare control is at Franklin Avenue, this counts because it connects to the IND subway and is the only practical access to the Queens bound platform.
One can also count Pelham Parkway on the 5, if one counts Pelham Parkway as an underground station.
It's been a while, but I think there is a surface level building at 161 Street-Yankee Stadium.
There still is a 72 Street style control house at 96 Street, although it is no longer the entrance to the subway, it's the "Broadway Mall Community Center" or something of the sort. Other stations further up "The Boulevard" used to have these too, Columbia University comes to mind.
All the stations on the Dyre Ave. line have doors on the entrances. Of these, the Pelham Parkway station is fully underground.
Got a copy of the TA operating budget. It is pretty clear that fares have to be raised or service will have to be cut to pay for the labor raises and other things. The TA will be operating in the red this year, wiping out the accumulated cash reserve -- even if it gets $133 million in "unspecified additional assistance."
My guess is the fares will be increased this November -- after the Senate election, but two years before Pataki gets voted on in 2002.
The question is, will the TA do something innovative this time, such as raising prices for rush hours only? And will the commuter railroads also have a fare increase, or will Pataki avoid one by diverting a larger share of state aid to the LIRR and MetroNorth rather than the T.A.?
Personally, I'd rather see a $2.00 fare for rush hours than a $1.75 fare around the clock. Perhaps with a high rush hour fare, the TA could afford to actually cut the off peak fare.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
I gotta get me a TA job!!!
MARTA is thinking about raising it's fares, too. Up to $1.75. Weekly and Monthly transcards, too. This sucks. I guess I'll have to look harder under the sofa for change to get to school.
Lets face it, prices go up. Milk, gas, steel, etc. When prices go up, so must workers wages, and also, the expenses for the company increase. Despite that we all wish the fare were still a nickel, a case can be easily made that it is the nickel fare that led to the current subsidized operation. Of course, you could (according to my economics professor, who gave me an F) extend the price theory until it is an endless spiral, rising out of control upwards (this is usually where Alan Greenspan comes in, and raises interest rates 1/4 of a point.) I fully expect to see an appropriate fare raise within the next year, and in true NY fashion, the TA will ask for $2, and they'll get $1.60-$1.75 (Just like they asked for $1.25 and got $1.15; $1.35 and got $1.25; $1.75 and got $1.50)
It's time, it's fully expected. We're in the midst of the greatest economic expansion the US has ever seen, and not to expect consumer prices to rise is foolish.
-Hank
You haven't taken into account the effect of the govet's budget surplus on the money supply.
In Queens if you ride the "private" fleet of coaches off-peek the fare is $1.00, if you pay in cash ... business has picked up some due to this. So, they COULD do this if they wanted to.
Mr t__:^)
While they could do an off-peak discount for MetroCard ONLY, I forsee problems-- lines of people waiting for the peak time to expire so they get the reduced fare. I also forsee people storming up to the booth-"This *@$%& took off the peak fare when it should be off-opeak fare. While I have no official info, I can see "I'm sorry- you'll have to send it to 370 Jay Street."
Please--NO, No,No!
I too expect an increase--personal opinion, not fact, due to rising gas (Diesel) prices. I would hope to simplify life for us that it be $1.75 or $2.00 rather than $1.65 or some strange number that would require stocking of dimes and nickels (yeah- more to count and no added time to count it all. Even now- many times we have trouble changing station agents due to customers. We can not close the window like ther supermarket- we must stay open!)
**disclaimer: this post is personal opinion and not official statement or policy of MTA or NYCT.
Once all the stations have MVMs and the use of tokens is discontinued, it won't matter what odd number is picked for a single fare, which will probably only be available at an MVM.
The DOT "private" carriers lowered their off-peak fares because Rudy ordered DOT to order them to do so. The companies don't need to care because [1] their profit margins are contractually guaranteed, and [2] the fares go to the City's general fund, with the off-peak fare shortfall made up by increased taxes.
I had advocated off peak discounts where discounts were being discussed. At least the next time they have to raise fares (which I predict will come after the election) they can raise they at rush hours only.
Do you really think the TA will do it before the Throughway Authority?
Rush hour fares do increase revenue, but have a down side - people will bunch at the stations awaiting the end of the rush fare period to enter. This happens every weekday on the DC Metro. Folks will not enter the faregate until the off-peak time starts, since in DC your fare is based on the time of entry.
Operationaly, a rush hour fare will only be implemented when the system is 100% MetroCard. A stored value system is the only way it can be done, and BTW, a stored value card opens the door to distance based fares. (See DC Metro for an example.)
(Rush hour fares do increase revenue, but have a down side - people will bunch at the stations awaiting the end
of the rush fare period to enter).
What you need is a step down system. You don't go from $2.00 to $1.50 in one tick of the clock. You step up and down a nickel every five minutes.
(Operationaly, a rush hour fare will only be implemented when the system is 100% MetroCard).
You can simply charge token users the peak hour fare for the privlege of using a token.
(A stored value system is the only way it can be done),
The monthly fare card price could just be adjusted to assume a certain number of peak hour trips. Obviously, having paid for it, monthly card holders wouldn't try to avoid peak hours, but others would. An off-peak only monthly -- not usable during rush hours -- is another possibility.
(and BTW, a stored value card opens the door to distance based fares).
Not in NYC -- there is no swipe to exit, so no way to measure distance. That was intentional (and political). In reality, the distance based fare system is that the subway is zone 1, and the commuter rail is other zones. The outer areas of trhe DC metro are the equivalent of commuter rail.
how else are they going to pay for those new "S" JUNK R - 142 s subway cars !!!
With the extra money that NY State will get because people in California didn't want to fill out their census form.
-Hank
The system IS 100% Metrocard. It's unlikely that tokens will survive the next fare hike.
[The DOT "private" carriers lowered their off-peak fares because Rudy ordered DOT to order them to do so. The companies don't need to care because [1] their profit margins are contractually guaranteed, and [2] the fares go to the City's general fund, with the off-peak fare shortfall made up by increased taxes.]
I get the feeling that you've upset with what our Mayor did here ?
The point was that the TA/MTA COULD do the same. ALSO any revenue short fall would be made up by the subsidy from the Governer & Mayor, so what's the difference ?
Off peek our fleet runs mostly empty, now they are a little fuller, AND maybe there are a few less of those customers fighting for YOUR seat ... I think that's a good thing.
Larry and others have made the point before that the current system can't handle too many more folks at rush hour, so we need to find some way to spread out the rush hour. And if you need to raise the fare to cover increased cost why not RE-THINK this one fare policy for the whole system. If it cost more to come in from the Rockaways again would some folks get back into their cars ... probally. If it cost extra to transfer to LI Bus would some folks get back on the LIE ... I think so. Personally I think the MTA has been thinking about this for some time now ... that's why they will probally convert the MetroCard from a Dip/Swipe to a Smart card ... just look at the Washington/Chicago models (same farebox/turnstile mfg.)
Mr t__:^)
"...any revenue shortfall would be made up by the subsidy from the Governor & Mayor..."
The errors in that argument, of which all Sub/BusTalkers should be fully aware, are as follows:
1. The Governor's "subsidy" is not, not, NOT a subsidy. It consists entirely of sales tax revenues paid by city residents (0.25% out of the 8.25%). By law, that money is dedicated for Transit, yet it's disbursed ONLY WHEN George feels like sending it back down the Hudson to benefit those who actually paid it.
2. The Mayor's "subsidy" is not, not, NOT a subsidy. It consists entirely of payments (from the Board of Education) for acting as a contract carrier of students who would otherwise be riding yellow school buses - by law, student transportation is the duty of the school district, not the transit carrier. However, Rudy has not actually made such payments (at least in full) for quite some time now.
"It consists entirely of payments (from the Board of Education) for acting as a contract carrier of students who would otherwise be riding yellow school buses"
THANK GOD this deal exists.
Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater, nka Pigs of Royal Island.
You didn't finish quoting from my earlier post.
Yes, the Board of Education deal exists; however, Rudy has a habit of not honoring it.
Then why is the MTA still letting the kids on its buses?
Because School Busses are total crap.
This is one reason why the windows are scratched up. on many occasions, I have had to call control center for windows kicked out on the storm doors( side doors) of my train. We then had to isolate the affected cars- thus delaying service for everyone. These kids continue to scratch windows, pull emergency cords, and hold doors. I cannot wait for the new pick to start- I have a later run, starting at 5:30pm. At least the later part of rush hour isn't that bad. The only problem will be in summer when school is out and the kiddies will be "Joy Riding" late into the night with their "40's", weed, and stogies.
Then we will have another problem to tackle. The police are susposed to check but they are never around when you need them!
Its really awful the way so many kids go out and trash things. I certainly didn't do that when I was younger.
I read a book on how to handle toddlers once, which I think is also relevant to teens. The book said that parents turn their kids into monsters by giving them attention when they act out, but ignoring them when they are good (and therefore not causing trouble). The result -- to get attention, toddlers act out.
Teens also have a need for attention, and there is all kinds of attention showered on the assholes that cause trouble. In NYC other kids are ignored. You see that in the public schools. "Oh great, that kid keeps quiet and is learning, what a break -- I'll use my limited energy to deal with the troublemakers."
The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.
[The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.]
Hmmm, I like the pesticide analogy. Teen vandalism is a big headache, but nothing that a couple gallons of Malathion won't cure.
Did my post i made about a week ago did anything about this subject?
This is one reason why the windows are scratched up. on many occasions, I have had to call control center for windows kicked out on the storm doors( side doors) of my train. We then had to isolate the affected cars- thus delaying service for everyone. These kids continue to scratch windows, pull emergency cords, and hold doors. I cannot wait for the new pick to start- I have a later run, starting at 5:30pm. At least the later part of rush hour isn't that bad. The only problem will be in summer when school is out and the kiddies will be "Joy Riding" late into the night with their "40's", weed, and stogies.
Then we will have another problem to tackle. The police are susposed to check but they are never around when you need them!
Its really awful the way so many kids go out and trash things. I certainly didn't do that when I was younger.
I read a book on how to handle toddlers once, which I think is also relevant to teens. The book said that parents turn their kids into monsters by giving them attention when they act out, but ignoring them when they are good (and therefore not causing trouble). The result -- to get attention, toddlers act out.
Teens also have a need for attention, and there is all kinds of attention showered on the assholes that cause trouble. In NYC other kids are ignored. You see that in the public schools. "Oh great, that kid keeps quiet and is learning, what a break -- I'll use my limited energy to deal with the troublemakers."
The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.
[The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.]
Hmmm, I like the pesticide analogy. Teen vandalism is a big headache, but nothing that a couple gallons of Malathion won't cure.
Did my post i made about a week ago did anything about this subject?
[2. The Mayor's "subsidy" is not, not, NOT a subsidy. It consists entirely of payments (from the Board of Education) for acting as a contract carrier of students who would otherwise be riding
yellow school buses - by law, student transportation is the duty of the school district, not the transit carrier. However, Rudy has not actually made such payments (at least in full) for quite some time
now.]
That's not exactly true ... at the "private" bus depots: Our cost are covered by: receipts from the farebox (some routes almost make money); NY State funds; and NYC in several ways. School kids at 1/2 fare and free; Sr./Disabled (the Station Agent still issues paper to those who don't have MCs we send in the paper & get cash); "Blocks" when the subway has an unscheduled outage the Station Agent issues paper, we send them in & get 1.50 each; if we still come up short Rudy writes a check after we document why. There are other revenue sources that we have to apply for and I have left some detail out about or subsidy payments, but maybe this makes it a little clearer.
The point is that the TA has this big pot of money while the privates have to fight for a lot of scraps to make ends meet. It's a constant struggle, especially if one of the big checks is late.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA or nycDOT and my comments are myown and don't necessarily reflect the position of my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
A clarification is in order:
NYCT has a big LEGISLATED pot of money, which Rudy and George raid or withhold at will. Witness the last fare increase (intended to punish NYC residents for voting for Cuomo in 1994): George completely withheld NYC Transit's portion of the mass transportation sales-tax account for two years, in order to pay for upstate pork barrels; Rudy actually betrayed his city by endorsing that maneuver. Meanwhile, the Metro-North and LIRR portions of the same account were partially disbursed.
On the other hand, the DOT-sponsored "privates" make money just by existing, because all of their expenses are covered (including liability settlements and campaign contributions) and their profit margins are guaranteed.
how else are they going to pay for those new TRANVERSE CAB....
non railfan window equipped R - 142 s ???????
YOU GOT IT !!!!!!! A TRANSIT FARE INCREASE !!!
like a $ 2.00 TWO DOLLAR FARE TO RIDE TRANSVERSE CAB
EQUIPPED SUBWAY CARS !!!!! ( like this bomb we built in L.A.
the los angeles red line subway to nowhere !!!!!!
I think the next fare increase should be to $1.80.
Tokens: No more
SingleRide: $1.80
Metrocard: $18.00 for 11 rides ($19.80 value)
Fun Pass: $6.00
7-day: $20
30-day: $75.00
Express Bus: $3.60
Express Bus Plus 30-day: $144.00
Reduced Fare: $.90
7-day unlimited reduced: $10
30-day: $37.50
Metrocard prepaid pay-per-ride flavors:
$7.20
$18.00 ($19.80 in value)
$36.00 ($39.60 in value)
why mr pigs of island ???? what if you could not afford a fare of $ 1,80 one dollar eighty cents ???
why not a 50, CENT fare instead ??
maybe you are rich and well off but what about the rest of us working poor folks ??? EH ????
********** AND THEN NO MORE TOKENS ????? WHAT ?????!!!!!!!!! ***************
just like GASOLINE and DIESEL prices too dammed high working folks cant afford it !!!!!!!!
but of cource rich folks like yourself dont care !!!!!! ????
Fine. As long as your boss never gives you a raise again, then, additional years, we'll reduce your salary 25% every year. This way, we'll never have to raise transit fares again, because costs won't be going up for everyone, nor will wages, taxes, groceries, gas, cars...
People have the mindset that prices NEVER go up. Face reality, they do. And as prices go up, wages MUST go up, lest the workers be unable to afford to buy products. To pay those higher wages, guess what else has to go up?
It's called an economy!
-Hank
I think the MTA is crazy to hold the line on prices, and then have these big increases, now that Metrocard is on hand. It should just increase the fare by the level of employee wage/benefit increases each year. That will bring everyone around to reality -- wages and health care costs go up, fares also have to go up. It would lead to a sensible dialogue -- is that TWU increase fair, given that other people are also earning more? Than up goes the fare.
BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind. I'd rather see a fare increase than any other outcome here -- like deferred maintenance of a smaller capital program. I'd prefer a big rush hour increase to an across the board increase.
[BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind.]
A slice of pizza?
Yeah. Historicly, it seems that as the cost of a slice of pizza goes up, the price of a subway ride shortly follows.
-Hank
why mr pigs of island ???? what if you could not afford a fare of $ 1,80 one dollar eighty cents ???
why not a 50, CENT fare instead ??
maybe you are rich and well off but what about the rest of us working poor folks ??? EH ????
********** AND THEN NO MORE TOKENS ????? WHAT ?????!!!!!!!!! ***************
just like GASOLINE and DIESEL prices too dammed high working folks cant afford it !!!!!!!!
but of cource rich folks like yourself dont care !!!!!! ????
Fine. As long as your boss never gives you a raise again, then, additional years, we'll reduce your salary 25% every year. This way, we'll never have to raise transit fares again, because costs won't be going up for everyone, nor will wages, taxes, groceries, gas, cars...
People have the mindset that prices NEVER go up. Face reality, they do. And as prices go up, wages MUST go up, lest the workers be unable to afford to buy products. To pay those higher wages, guess what else has to go up?
It's called an economy!
-Hank
I think the MTA is crazy to hold the line on prices, and then have these big increases, now that Metrocard is on hand. It should just increase the fare by the level of employee wage/benefit increases each year. That will bring everyone around to reality -- wages and health care costs go up, fares also have to go up. It would lead to a sensible dialogue -- is that TWU increase fair, given that other people are also earning more? Than up goes the fare.
BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind. I'd rather see a fare increase than any other outcome here -- like deferred maintenance of a smaller capital program. I'd prefer a big rush hour increase to an across the board increase.
[BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind.]
A slice of pizza?
Yeah. Historicly, it seems that as the cost of a slice of pizza goes up, the price of a subway ride shortly follows.
-Hank
The latest article has the Big Dig's cost soaring over $14 billion, with the completion date pushed back past 2005. A sobering example for those who advocate public works in NYC. Looks like everyone is making a mint -- and they are going to drag this thing out as long as they can. The Big Dig got big bucks from the federal government because Tip O'Neil was speaker. No one is going to do that for NYC. Even so, The Big Dig is sucking up all the transportation money in Massachusetts.
I call it the Big Waste, because it's a lot of money dumped down the drain, made boston into a huge mess (I swear they change all the roads around everytime I'm there), and let's face it, highway expansion doesn't work.
Anyone wanna place bets on when the big mass transit push starts happening up there?
The Big Dig is as much about replacing deteriorating, inadequate infrastructure, much like the maligned Manhattan Bridge, as it is about expansion.
Actually, it's less about expansion, than it is about replaceing deteriorating infrastructure and creating more open space in the inner city. With the highway buried, the land will be used as a large park (or so the original plan said) similar to the Capitol Mall.
-Hank
Actually, its less about the road itself, and more a job program and profit bonanza, or at least that's how it turned out. That's what makes me afraid of the 2nd Ave. Once the construction contractors and unions have money coming in (not to mention the mafia), they'll never let it be finished.
You're just a ray of sunshine when it comes to government contracts, aint'cha? :)
-Hank
(Your just a ray of sunshine when it comes to government contracts)
I entered government 14 years ago as an optimist. Society is to blame.
No, Larry, the PURPOSE of government is to extort from the powerless and hand out to the powerful. Thus the big dig lame as it is fulfills the real needs of the system.
The end result is instead of a .6 mile underground sojurn through downtown Boston followed by 3.4 miles of daylight, we will have 3 miles in the dark followed by a 'suspension bridge' we don't need. And since that three miles will still back up frequently, it won't be any fun to drive either. *COUGH* #CHOKE# :(
Look at the bright side. Normally, Massachusetts (like New York, New Jersey and Connecticut) pays more money into the federal government than it gets out. Thanks to the big dig, it has been getting more out of the feds than it pays in for years. Yes it really is that costly. I guess Tip O'Neil and his pals in the construction industry/union figured money wasted locally is better than money wasted in the sunbelt. It really doesn't matter if its worth it if someone else pays. Now, of course, its so expensive that the Bay State may end up footing the excess bill.
Now about that Second Avenue Subway...
Actually, it's less about expansion, than it is about replaceing deteriorating infrastructure and creating more open space in the inner city. With the highway buried, the land will be used as a large park (or so the original plan said) similar to the Capitol Mall.
Large urban parkland? Watch the crime rate soar...
CH.
(Large urban parkland, watch the crime rate soar)
NYC's crime rate is now significantly below the national average. Boston's crime rate is now significantly below NYC.
At least it has one benefit.
All that nasty traffic will be hidden underground.
Out of sight, out of mind.
And while they're at it, they might as well build that oft-proposed connection between North and South stations.
I think it's safe to say that the Big Dig has reduced the likelihood of the North-South rail link being built anytime in the near future. There probably isn't a whole lot of enthusiasm for even more government money to be committed to another huge infrastructure project in central Boston.
Actually, as part of the project, they built the portion of the North-South connector that runs under the highway (just like the provisions for the IND second system)
-Hank
The way I understood it, what they did was to put in some walls deeper than needed for the highway tunnel alone, to be used as part of the North-South rail link if it's ever built. So yes, they've made provisions for it by installing some extra concrete (maybe they did some utility relocation too?), but nothing resembling an actual rail tunnel is there.
I remember back in 1993-94 when I told people in that area of the country that the Big Dig would cost at least $10 billion when the state estimates were still about $4 billion and they though I was crazy.
EXPENSIVE
Is there a plan to switch #2 and #5 north terminals, with #2 beginning at Dyre Avenue, running express mornings below E 180 Street to the west side, with all #5 beginning at E 241 St (Wakefield), running local to Grand Concourse, then Lex Express? If there is such a plan, what is the date for the switch of northern terminals? Thanks.
There is a plan to run all the Wakefield (#2 and the few #5 specials) express during rush hours, and running the #5 from Dyre as the local. But no terminal switch by either line has been discussed, although I've always supported this service change before.
Interesting.
The Dyre Avenue Line used to be the #2 and the White Plains Line was the #5. The terminals were switched in the early 1960's. Would be sort of wierd if they switched them back agian after almost 30 years.
#5 Dyres as Bronx locals during the rush and #2's as Expresses in the Bronx during the rush? What purpose would that serve?
To confuse and baffle Bronx riders...
The switch was made Sunday,6/13/65.
Aren't we confused enough as it is?
Nah, the TA has ingenious ways of confusing us even more. I expect more for a $1.50 token.
Until well into the nineties, Hagstrom's five-borough street atlas showed the route taken by the White Plains line as being East Side Service (two thin parallel lines) and the Dyre line as being West Side (one thick heavy line). They finally corrected it.
It doesn't surprise me that Hagstrom would have East Side and West Side routes confused. Hagstrom still thinks of the IRT and BMT as separate and distinct companies.
I thought the switch was in 1963. Anyway, the "thru exp" north of 180th St was one heck of a ride, if you had a good operator. Particularly, racing downgrade from Allerton to Burke Ave, then up to Gun Hill at full speed, round the curve and into the station. What a thrill. Of course, with today's speed restrictions, better off on the bus!
Joe Caronetti
Ever ride a redbird #2 train as it zips from Pelham Parkway around the curve into Bronx Park East at top speed? What a rush ...
Absolutely!! That was the other thrill of the 'thru exp'. Even today with track work it is possible to ride "down" the center track. Downgrade from Allerton thru Pel Pkwy and around the curve. Should have seen the Lo-V's and earlier "R" types. Great moments in transit riding.
Joe Caronetti
Why did they ever discontinue using the center track from 180th St. to Gun Hill Rd? I remember that from the early 60's.
Bob Sklar
Probably the people who used Pelham Parkway and Bronx Park East got pissed off at watching expresses whiz on by. It's the very same reason that F express service on Hillside Ave was discontinued in 1992.
I asked the webmaster at the hoboken terminal site about seeing Amtrak trains on the Lackawanna Cutoff which will probably be starting after the 63 St and Manny B work is done. This is what he said:With the cutoff being owned by the State of New Jersey, the service on the
cutoff will more likely be NJ Transit. Also, there are no plans for electric
service to extended west of Dover.
The only market for Amtrak in this case would be New York to
Binghamton/beyond. A New York-Binghamton train might be a NJT/MTA operation,
or even NYS&W. Beyong Binghamton, however, Amtrak would probably step in.
However, to answer your question, on the startup of Lackawanna Cutoff
operations, the chances of Amtrak running on the cutoff are close to zero.
What do you think about this service and modifying NJT stations are welcome
Well as with anything there are pros and cons.
Pro) Train Service on the Slatrford Cutt Off
Con) Me not able to crawl around on the Slateford Cutt Off any more.
That line is truely and engineering marvel. Built in 1909-1911 it was the first real use of poured, re-enforced concreate in US railroad construction. The bridge over the Paulins Kill is simply breath taking. As it is you can get down onto the archway via man-holes on the track bed. There is a walkway built on the arch with arched cut-outs in the vertical supports and ladder rungs on the steep portions. In the support piers, from where the arch starts to to track bed, it is a giant, hollow ressonance chamber. The arch is such a cool place that I had my senior yearbook picture taken there. Aside from the bridge the line boasts the earthen fill over the Peaquest Creek. At 5 miles long and 100 feet high it is the largest railroad fill in the world. Other features on the line include stations at Blairstown, Johnsburg, Greendell and Slateford/Water Gap, the tunnel at Rosedale and and the viaduct over the Delaware River.
I can see how this line would make a wonderful transit corridor. It goes right through the new sprall that is growing along I-80. It has no grade crossings and it is relitivly level. No matter what happens, the Slateford Cutt-Off is one of the greatest engenering marvels ever abandonned.
I agree completely - I've spent some time there myself. I also walked the Rosedale tunnel and traced out the old Blairstown RR. I believe there were 4 viaducts identical to the Paulins Kill, the most spectaular being the Tunkhannock (sp?), still in service. Also do you know the Slate Belt Electric Railway trolley passed directly under the Delaware River Viaduct?
It may be unlikely (as mentioned in a subsequent post) that the CNJ will be reactivated west of High Bridge, since the ROW was breached when I-78 was built. Nor is it likely that NS would welcome the addition of a parallel rail line - they want the old L&HR so they can get directly from the south to the Yellow Freight facility in Maybrook. Since they can't get into New England except by Guilford it's likely they will dump any TOFC on I-84 there. Also NS and CP/StL&H recently raised the roof in the ex-LV Pattenberg Tunnel so its OK for stacks now. Another reason to let the CNJ lie fallow. Also, the DL&W catenary is way too low for much other than Plate C clearances.
An interesting point:
Arthur Imperatore the APA Trucking magnate tried to buy the old E-L from Dover west into Ohio shortly after Conrail was formed. But Conrail wouldn't sell. Insead they dismantled the ROW in New Jersey to force the traffic onto the LV and NYC River Line. The grand plan was to sell the fill to NY City to use for Westway and obliterate it completely. So in some measure we have the fall of Westway to thank for the survival of the Lackawanna Cut-Off.
I see commuter service as far as Scranton or Wilkes-Barre a possibility, particularly if Midtown Direct with dual-mode locomotives is possible. The Monroe County Rail Authoriy is pushing it, and a good part of the real estate dealing is done. The developers in the Poconos would love it. Martz and a few other bus lines already have commuter service as far as Stroudsburg and Wilkes-Barre.
The preceeding is opinion and hearsay as related to me over the years, no great source of infallible wisdom or crystal ball was available.......
Binghamton to New York is almost 200 miles. That's definitely an Amtrak run. Four hours in a traditional MTA commuter train would not be a pleasant experience.
Amtrak would probably not be inclined to use the cutoff due to LackaMoney.
If they do it, it would be in direct competition with Greyhound, which has a route between New York, Scranton, Binghamton, Ithaca, Rochester, Buffalo, and Toronto. Rail service instead of bus service would work well. I've been considering the matter hypothetically myself.
Hey, while we're at it, how about some service to Easton/Bethlehem/Allentown? I read somewhere that NJT may extend (Raritan Valley?) service to Phillipsburg on the east shore of the Delaware River. Why not go farther? It doesn't have to be Amtrak. It doesn't have to be NJT either. Why are there only two choices: Long Distance or Commuter? Why can't 2 or 3 states get together and form a sort of regional rail agency? Give CSX a cut of the profits and provide some mail/express business on the route. Allentown could conceivabley be a hub for NYC and Philadelphia. Completely hypothetical, of course, but we can dream.
This route is much more likley. NJT can work with the abandonned CNJ main line (think it still has track over the whole distance), it can get traffic from a busy freeway corridor and NS would be eagar to get an emergency alternative to the Pattenburg Tunnel. NJT could make a nice profit from NS dimention trains or detours due to tunnel maintainence. I don't really see NJT going past Easton because if it went A-B-E, that metro area along would demand some sort of freaquent inter-city service. The area is large enough to demand such a service, but it is not large enough to make a single line rail connection anywhere near viable.
Other viable rail projects include Philly to Reading. Anything besides Commuter rail would be a joke. Much of the NS Harrisburg Line is a 4 track RoW (currently 2) and the section into Reading is a double track RoW (currently 1). Don't forget that there is a station building (Franklin St.), a new station site w/ parking (Outer Station) and pleanty of yard space (Reading Yard). SEPTA could slap in some track, limit service to 5-7 major stations, and then run hi(er)-speed trains. If hell froze over I could see SEPTA re-vanping the PRR line fron Norristown to Philly, using it for express service for Reading trains and electrify the whole thing.
PS: If SEPTA does go all into Reading they might want to consider running special sports extras from Reading, over the hi-line and down to the sports complex. I have heard many complaints on sports radio about the drive down 422 to see a game. Also, train service could allow for increased alcohol consumption. I was thinking of sports themed trainsets that had interiors that could be easily hosed out.
Does anyone know for sure if the CNJ tracks still go through into Easton? Someone told me that when the last three NJ miles of I 78 were built it cut off the ROW. Easton itself has (or had) both the CNJ and LV stations to which trains from either line can (could) be routed.
Well I-78 crosses The CNJ at 2 points I believe that the eastern crossing mear Bloomsbury crosses over the RoW via a bridge. Also the CNJ connects with the lehigh Line west of Bloomsbury so trains can access the Central Secondary which runs on the CNJ RoW for a few miles (MP 66.6-60.1). My ETT (albeit a few years old) indicates that the Central Sec. runs all the way to the division post with NJT at MP 60.1. The track is O of S b/t 62.4 and 60.1. So this, and what I have observed passing over the RoW on Rt. 31 leads me to believe that the track is intact from CONN at MP 71 on the Lehigh Line to High Bridge. I-78 may have very well cut the RoW where it crosses it a little east of Alpha, but I also think that the tracks are intact in the Easton, Ph'burg area. To put the line back in service would require laying new track and putting in a bridge on I-78 (which the federal hwy fund might pay for).
Althought the Pattenburg tunnel might be cleared for stacks, its still a bottleneck. What if service on the line increases or what if a train blows up in the tunnel? It would be good for NS to have the option of moving freight along a non-tunnel route. They would get on the line at CONN and get off at Bound Brook. This type of emergency service could help NJT pay for the line.
The right-of-way is severed in many places. I'm not saying it's impossible to put it back together, but it would be more expensive than it first appears.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From what I remember, one of the bridges on the south side of Alpha was removed almost 10 years ago.
I can't remember where, but I did read that Reading SEPTA service is a distinct possibility -- you know, planning stages -- and that a Quakertown, PA extension of service is even further along. I read enough that I can't remember exactly where I to this, so, sorry. I am certain, though, that SEPTA is also planning a suburb-to-suburb route -- a sort of crescent in PA embracing metro Philly.
The Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers website at
http://dvarp.org/
is the place to go for what you asked.
That site has the latest details on the proposed Schuykill Valley Metro. Seems that SEPTA want to gild the lily and build a 62-mile light rail line, rather than use a more realistic diesel-electric commuter train. Such an LRV which would be the longest of its kind in the country by more than double the mileage of the next longest LRV line. Seems SEPTA must have a real aversion to diesel, which is demonstrated by the fact that missing R8 Newtown service, (which would potentially have good patronage) has not been restored for more than 17 years.
The DVARP website also has the latest discussion on the Quakertown extension of the R5 Lansdale Service and the R4(??) Cross County Metro. Personallly, I think that the likelihood of either of these projects is less than that of a full length Second Avenue Subway in New York or even the other ancient long-discussed proposal of Roosevelt Boulevard Extension of the Philadelphia Broad Street Subway.
Thanks, Gary.
Hope you read this, as it's been a week already.
Heard on a charter trip in Philly (the Peter Witt car) last fall that, like the R8 Newtown service, there was a potential for trolley service to South Philly showing a potential for ridership. Wasn't there a temporary restoration at one point, which proved it? Understand the only trolley service kept were the subway-surface routes due to equipment shortage. Care to elaborate?
KP
The Flushing line's El part east of the rare A Division to B Division cross the platform transfer could easily be modified to handle the IND/BMT cars even the 75 footers although this would require running a S Stienway Street Shuttle as the new Flushing trains would operate to Coney Island or Whitehall St. as locals. The center express track would have to be removed for the 75 ft cars(I'd use R46)to operate
And what about the Flushing Line south of Queensboro Plaza? What would happen to that stretch of the line? And there are already two Broadway Locals.
Like I said a shuttle would cover that.
Considering the heavy usage the 7 has at Grand Central, it wouldn't make much sense to force all those people to transfer at QP to the BMT. Plus, sending the N, R plus another line through the 60th St tunnel would bottleneck things and limit the capacity of service between QP and Main Street. The 7 runs more cars per hour under the East River right now than any other line. Having a new B Division Flushing line share track space with two other B Division lines (or even just one other line if you routed the N thorugh the 63rd St. tunnel) could do nothing but cut capacity.
One wonders whether a modified-profile piece of equipment could be designed that would work with IND-BMT platforms but fit in the Steinway Tunnel.
This would allow excess 60th St. Tunnel capacity to be used on the Flushing Line, but not limit the total number of trains.
And larger trains mean more capacity.
I'm curious why you think there's extra 60th street tunnel capacity? Between the downhill grade timers in both directions, and the timers on the Queens-bound Queens side for diverging moves to the Queens Blvd. line, this tunnel is at or near capacity during rush hours. The NYCTA schedules show 5-8 minute headways for each line during AM rush, and 7-9 during PM rush. That's translates to peak usage of up to 24 trains per hour.
Sure, there's capacity off-peak, but that's true everywhere on the system.
Why was the Third Avenue El taken out of service so many years ago?
[Why was the Third Avenue El taken out of service so many years ago?]
Basically, a combination of three reasons:
1) Real estate interests wanted it removed so Third Avenue, freed from perpetual twilight and noise, would be ripe for development. It also was expected that development would spread eastward to Second and First avenues once the El was gone from Third. These things actually did happen.
2) The El structure was getting quite deteriorated. It could not support anything more modern than its ancient rolling stock.
3) It was _supposed_ to be replaced by the Second Avenue subway!
Also dont forget that the thinking at the time was that:
1. Change is progress, and progress is inevitable
2. Old is bad and new is good
3. Transit was passe and the auto was in the ascendency
4. The cycle of urban poverty could be broken by new housing and better surroundings for urban dwellers (urban renewal)
I disagree with all of the preceeding but that reflected the sensibilities of the time. Unfortunately (in my opinion) all attempts to quantify the role and meaning of "community" have failed, and removing transit routes has done little more than to remove access to jobs in poor neighborhoods.
Progress IS inevitable, it's just what your idea of progress is, that's where the disagreement is.
Hi all
From my apartment in Washington Heights, I overlook the amtrak tracks which run alongside the hudson river. Last week I saw an Amtrak turboliner.......very sleek with a red stripe only. I have lived here for years, but never saw one before. Id this nre, or have I just been missing this train everyday?
Michael B.
Because AMTRAK needs the equipment, this is the first of many to be overhauled and returned to service over the next couple of years.
Is the turboliner faster then the other Amtrak trains?
I think the one with the red stripe is not one of the new overhauls, but one that has been operating for some years as a result of a previous, experimental (and less extensive) overhaul. The first of the new overhauls isn't quite done yet (I think), and when finished the Turboliners should sport an Acela color scheme and logo. 2 are supposed to be finished in the next few months, and when they test out okay 5 more are to be redone. In theory they will be able to run up to 125 mph somewhere between Poughkeepsie and Albany, but I suspect that speed won't be achievable on very much of the route.
IIRC, the 4 Turboliners being rebuilt are currently owned by the State of NY, and will be providing Empire Corridor service (NYP to Albany and Buffalo) under the Acela Regional service brand as a 403(b) service.
-Hank
This is the first time I scan my slides into the internet. I haven't put my pictures on the internet since the first month of 1998 because I began to take slides on NYC Subway and it is very expensive to scan slides in a store.
Here are the pictures.
Photo 1: An R142A Train at Gun Hill Road.
Photo 2: Close View of R142A 7215.
Photo 3: LED Sign of R142A.
Photo 4: An R142A Train and an R29 #5 Train at Gun Hill Road.
Dave, you can these photos into the R142 car page.
Chaohwa
Thanks Chaohwa, I put them up on the R142 Page.
-Dave
Here is the pictures i took on 3/6/2000
#7215 with #8
#7220 with diamond #3.
I got a question are R142 only have one color just red??? or there is green or purple?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Unfortunately, red only.
Chaohwa
Nice job ChaoHwa and Meaney! What day did you get those pics? I like them very much! I went up to the Bronx with B'way Jorge and got R142A 7215 at Pelham Pkwy today. Mine are in developer as we speak and once I get them, I'll scan them and put them up here on SubTalk.
Also got lot of RedBirds-only free time I have to say adieu to them.
R36Gary
I took it Tuesday, the day before your field trip. The weather was nice, wasn't it?
Chaohwa
I was up there 3-7 at Pelham Pkwy Sta around 1pm. I was with a guy wearing a NYR Jersey. I was wearing a New Jersey Devil Hat and a green jacket.
R36Gary
I got some R142A Shots today and got some driver cockpit shots, will be up by tomorrow night!!!
Trevor
Can't Wait to see them!!!
Nice pictures, you should donate them to the R142 website too.
what's the URL for that site?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html
Thanks. I didn't realize you meant the R142 page on THIS site. I thought maybe you were referring to an outside site about the R142's. Would be kinda cool....
At the risque of sounding pompous..
we're losing the redbirds... for those???
RedbirdFANatic
Fan is the key word
I feel the same about the Low V.
"we're losing the redbirds... for those???"
Yeah, ain't it great?
no it is not great we are losing the redbirds !!
I never much cared for the Redbirds. And I absolutely loathe the R-33S running on the 7. If I am to feel any sort of bereavement resulting from their permanent absence, it will only be because of the natural tendency of man to remember fondly that which no longer exists but which is retained in his memory.
Im working on my new URL www.geocities.com & could take about a month to put up. That is why im replace www.angelfire.com to www.geocities.com
Peace Out
David Justiniano
If you're referring to the colored LED signs on the front, they can be green as well.
...the colored LED signs on the front, they can be green as well.
Are you certain? I have never seen or heard of that capability. Have you seen them green? Furthermore, the covering seems to have a red tint to it.
If all they can do is red and green, (and yellow with both,) then waht is the point? It would only serve to confuse passengers to see red for the 1/9, then green for the A/C!!
One-color or full-color is all that makes sense, and I know they didn't opt for full-color...
Green for 4/5/6 would make sense because these are A division cars.
Yellow for 7??? Swap colors with the Broadway lines first...that is...if you want to keep the color coding system in effect since '79. In either case, there will be a lot of confusion.
Since the R142's were meant for the IRT mainlines, then red/green only signs will do. If any are ever assigned to the Flushing line, I'm sure a purple filter can be placed over the bulkhead signs.
Since the R142's were meant for the IRT mainlines, then red/green only signs will do. If any are ever assigned to the Flushing line, I'm sure a purple filter can be placed over the bulkhead signs.
LED's emit monochrome light. Filters filter out all but a certain wavelength. Placing a violet filter in front of a white light will limit what comes through to purple, which is a different wavelength from red. Placing a violet filter in front of a monochrome red or green light will pass nothing. Got any more "bright" ideas? :-)
Yesh, these high-tech numbskulls should have put a REAL roll sign up there. Low-tech? Sure. Reliable? Yes. Visible? Yes. Confusing? No.
Phooey on all-red LEDs for the R142A. No style, no panache, no pizzazz NOTHING. And they are probably be just as tough to read once the glasses get dirty as those on the R32s.
Wayne
If the 7 gets R-142s, I still think they'll be the at the tail end of the order, since the Corona and CI buildings will have to be altered to handing the AC systems.
By then, the effectivness of the LEDs on the first few hundred will be known. If enough people complain about having problems either reading the sign or with the color being wrong, they may make some modification in the last few hundred trains.
The R110A sign were able to change to any colors needed. I was at the trains Musiem when they came in for the big shot of the TA. I was there dring the party that was going on becouse I am a member and happen to be there that day. I got to change to sign to the #7 and it was the right color. So I would say the the R142A could do the same.
[I got to change to sign to the #7 and it was the right color. So I would say the the R142A could do the same.]
Couldn't have. There is no blue in those signs to make purple. Those signs make red, amber and green only. —Just like the new information signs in many stations. (If the red and green can be adjusted, they would be able to make straight yellow and orange as well.)
If the R-142 ever runs on the 7, they would probably just use red. It's not 100% exact, but everyone would get the idea. No lines of any other color share the Flushing tracks. (certainly better than the flipdots, which are green only)
I hope they use the full color for the 143's as there are blue and gray (RGB at hal-power) lines on the B-Div. These do cost more, so I hope they don't decide to be cheap about it.
No mods are neccesary at the CI shop; they already have an overhead crane.
-Hank
Yep. Place a blue filter over a red LED sign. It will then appear purple.
Wrong. Use a true blue filter (dichroic) and you will see nothing. Put a plain peice of blue-tinted plastic in front, and you may see purple, but it will be very, very dim.
You will only see any light at all because the blue plastic is not very efficient at filtering. LEDs, on the other hand, are very efficient at emitting one exact wavelength of light.
That's what I meant, a piece of blue tinted plastic. It would dim the LED display, but not so much as to make it unreadable.
Dim enough. I just tried it with some colored handi-wrap. All you see is a colorless dot, can't even call it 'white'. LEDs aren't available in many colors because they only emit a single color. No prism effect at all. Bipolar LEDs are opaque or clear. The only way to get a different color from an LED is to change the LED.
-Hank
Because full-color can't be done. There are 5 cheaply-available LED types, 1 expensive one, and some still under development.
Red, Green, Amber (Yellow), Bi-Polar (Red if you apply positive volts, green for negative(depending on your hook-up), amber if you alternate the current fast enough) and Infra-Red (most commonly used for TV and stereo remotes).
Blue is available, but it's relatively expensive.
White is stil being developed.
Most likely, the R142 have bi-polar LEDs, so that they can display red or green, but only on the head sign. The side signs look like multi-segment LCD, like the train boards at GCT. The color of the sign when the R142 eventually makes it to the 7 (at least 2 sets of 11 cars were ordered, as were 2 sets of 9 cars) it won't make a difference, since the 7 is one of only 2 lines in the entire city that never share track, so if you see it coming and it stops at your station, it's your train.
-Hank
-Hank
A simple way to display purple 7 signs on the R142's is to place a transparent blue filter over a red LED 7 sign. Red + blue = purple.
Won't work. LEDs are monochromatic, not filtered full spectrum, so the blue filter will simply block the entire emitted spectrum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On my VCR, the LED display glows yellow. However, there is a red filter placed in front of it to make the LED display appear orange. Works fine in my VCR, so I'd guess it could work on the bulkhead LED's as well.
Your VCR display is much more likely vacuum-tube flourescent than LED.
If it is LED, then it only works as you describe because yellow and red are much closer in the light spectrum than red and blue, and the filter is not very efficient at filtering exact wavelengths.
VCR displays are gennerally not LED. It's usually a kind of etched piece of silicone, which has another extremely thin layer of silicone over it. The space is filled with a gas, and a charge is applied. (similar to a florescent tube)
-Hank
OK. I assumed that the "LED display" was actually an LED display. Since I'm not technically versed in this area, I'll take your word for it.
Don't you mean SILICON?
(since the 7 is one of only 2 lines in the entire city that never share track)
This might be nitpicking but I could think of 4 lines that never share a track. There might be more but this was off the to of my head at the time. They are:The "7" of courseThe 14St Canarsie LineThe Franklyn Shuttle The 42nd Street Shuttle
You are nitpicking! No, the shuttles never ahre track, but I don't usually not count them as 'lines'
-Hank
You are nitpicking! No, the shuttles never ahre track, but I don't usually count them as 'lines'
-Hank
Both full color and white are out(http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/RGB.htm ; http://www.theledlight.com/keychainlite.html)
but they are expensive (the full color especially so at $10 apiece by one company, and the 8×8 panel on the ledtronics page at about $80).
I hope the prices go down, or perhaps for the 143's they can make a sign that uses separate blues alongside red/green. Signs like this have appeared all over Times Sq., including the huge Nasdaq sign on the CondeNast building (it's a whole section of the corner wall!), the ABC studios sign, the Loews sign outside of the E-walk cafe (notice the brilliant white), and even the skyline over the Delta ad on the PA building
Or they could bolt a painted sheet of metal over the front LED... I understand the I.R.T. has some experience with this method of signage.
Bill :-)
Nice job Chaohwa& David, thanks fir responding to my request! Thanks to Dave P. to for posting them :) -Nick
Nice pics, Chaohwa - and the train isn't as ugly as I had imagined it would be either. I'll be in the City tomorrow afternoon/evening but doubt my daughter will indulge me with enough time to go to Dyre and see for myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I think they are clean and sharp looking. My only reservation--are they painted--I mean what's the point?
The end bonnets are painted; they're fiberglass like everything newer than the R38. The res stripe on the side is a decal, it's been revealed that the stripe indicates the wheelchair location.
-Hank
I think the red patch around the ditchlights and the fancy red stripe around the side of the A car make R142s not as bad as we thought.
Chaohwa
I like the front, but on the sides, the red gradient is just a decal for crying out loud! I think it looks tacky, and will not last long.
I thought the red gradient is to indicate which door to use to reach the wheelchair space.
I thought the red gradient is to indicate which door to use to reach the wheelchair space.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this is correct. At first we thought it was a way to symbolize the passing of the redbird, but apparently that is not the case. Why they don't just use the blue square with the wheelchair logo is byond me. -Nick
I was only commenting on how it looked. I think Nick is right - a blue wheel chair logo would make more sense, and probably look better.
I like the stripe. Much easier to notice than a 6" blue square (which they will, by law, need to apply anyway).
-Hank
What will happen to the R110s? Will the 110B go to franklin ave? Will the 110A be rebuilt into a 142?
The R110B won't go to the Franklin Avenue shuttle due to platform length limitations. Most likely it will be put on the Rockaway Shuttle. Currently it is on the C Line. I highly doubt neither car will be converted.
I think the 110A's aren't in service anymore anyway (brakes?). Remember the 110's were just an experiment, no need to spend extra bucks to maintain them in service with the new fleet.
WRONG, The R110B can be seen Monday-Friday on the C Line on the 9:56am or 10:06am Trips out of 168th Street! The R-110A I see that train randomly. I've seen her recently at the 239th Street Yard and snaking up White Plains Road (IDK if she was in service or not).
Trevor
To update and retrofit them to match the new mechanical standard should not be a major problem if there is a reason to do so. They were test and research cars but there is no reason not to build them into updated, mechanically compatable cars, if the bodies are in good condition.
I think the R110A cars would be perfect for the 42nd. St. shuttle, if they could be configured into 3 car units (with one left for spare parts). I'd even yank out all the seats.
Great idea. On the train at the Denver Airport, there are no seats and plenty of room. It would ease some of the crowds on the line.
Bad idea. It was tried in the fifties and failed.
On the 42nd. St. shuttle, seats aren't important. Passnager capacity is. If the R110A were to be used on this line, ripping out the seats would increase capacity. If someone can't stand for the 60-90 second ride, then they can take the #7.
On the 42nd. St. shuttle, seats aren't important. Passnager capacity is...
1. What do you think the difference in capacity will be?
2. Where will various mechanical systems now contained under the seats, e.g. heaters, door mechanisms, etc. be relocated?
3. One problem standees is that a grab bar, handle or post must be provided. Where are these facilities for the new standees be located and how will the be attached to the car frame?
4. This was tried in the 1950's and proved to be a failure. Have you analyzed the results of that experiment? What has changed to make you think that it warrants a second chance?
>>>2. Where will various mechanical systems now contained under the seats, e.g. heaters, door mechanisms, etc. be relocated?<<<
R-62a's (and all equipment R-44 and up)currently running on the shuttle have no mechanisms under the seats the seats are cantilevered. Door mechanisms are in the wall.
Peace,
Andee
1. A standing person takes up less space than a sitting person.
2. The R110A has no under-seat mechanisms to worry about.
3. Leaving the current grab bars and posts should be adequate.
4. What cars were modified? Why did it fail? Was that test done on the TS shuttle?
Remember, I'm only advocating doing this to these cars only, for this one line only.
1. A standing person takes up less space than a sitting person.
The scheduled capacity for the current crop of IRT cars is 110, the crush capacity is around 180 - based on 2.5 sf/pax. What NUMBERS do you project?
3. Leaving the current grab bars and posts should be adequate.
The current complement of grab bars and posts is exhausted by the current number of standees. What facilities will the new standees use.? N.B. the new standees cannot occupy the same space as the existing standees. There will have to be a different placement for these new grab bars or posts.
4. What cars were modified? Why did it fail? Was that test done on the TS shuttle?
LV's were modified. They were used on the TS shuttle. Why don't you do a little research. Check the NY Times Index circa 1957. It was quite a fiasco.
I don't project numbers, because I do not proclaim to be an expert. My opinions are simply that, opinions. A standing person has his mass distributed more evenly, maximizing space higher up closer to the roof of the car, whereas a seated person has his weight concentrated at the lower portions of the car, leaving a large amount of space above them totally unused. Add to that the additional space gained by having the seats physically removed, and that's why I say capacity could be increased.
As for grab bars/poles, I'm sire the cars could be modified to provide enough support for everyone. Fully packed cars would'nt even need grab bars for all it's riders, since the people themsleves provide support for others. This is proven every day on the #6 line in upper Manhattan.
I'm not aware of why this 1957 experiment was a fiasco. Was it because people were upset that they couldn't sit at all? Or was it some type of physical problem?
To add:
The Tokyo subway system has flip up seats in its cars which are not used during the rush hours to increase train capacity. I don't reccommend this on any other line except the TS shuttle. NYC subway riders feel they have constitutional rights to seats.
Ii don't understand why since they linked most of the r62's that they don't remove the conductor's cab to increase car capacity
I've thought about this question a couple of times, and I've concluded that the presence of electrical equipment in the "unused" cabs (circuit breakers, etc.) would make it difficult, if not impossible, to remove the cabs.
David
Ever see the interior of an R62 cab? The rear wall has more circuit breakers than there are in my house, and some of them are 600VDC. You'd have to reconfigure the equipment currently in the cab to be either against the outer wall, or under the car, which would be a significant expenditure.
-Hank
Are messages of a certain age deleted?
I retain 5,000 messages in the active board. The rest get archived. I still have them but there's no easy way to present them.
Good lord, you mean my first posts are still archived? I was truly ignorant back then. I believe my first post was "The Manhattan Bridge: Whats up with that?"...
And I'll bet you still haven't gotten a straight answer :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How would one go about seeing this archive?
Like I said, I don't have an easy way to present the archives. 100,000 messages is a lot. The archives are not currently on-line for viewing.
What about picking a random sampling of message (or not random, just the milestones of 1, 10, 100 etc.) online permanently in a folder.
How many days or weeks worth of postings? I.e., how many days old is the posting 5000 numbers before this one? I take it that if someone tries to do a search for postings older than that, he will get a "0 messages" response?
There was a subway crash in Tokyo yesterday that caused injuries as well as ftalities; go to http://cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/east/03/07/tokyo.train.05/index.html to read the article. -Nick
OUCH! That'll give them nice repair job to do. Sorry to hear about the fatalities and injuries. Side impact is always the worst. However, it looks like only the sheet metal got damaged. Hard to tell what's underneath. I wonder if those are Kawasaki cars.
First time I used the RealPlayer "play video" feature.
Wayne
Ok, at the risk sounding stupid, what exactly is a truck? Is it what the body rests on? Would a truck on a train be comparable to a chassis on a car? What parts make up the truck?
A truck is the set of wheels under the train. That's all I can tell you. That's all I know.
I always thought that the wheels were not considered part of the trucks; the trucks attached the car body to the wheels.
Nope. The whole assembly is the truck. The frame holds the wheels, axles, motors (if the truck is motorized), brake equipment, third rail beams (if necessary) and any other equipment.
The truck is the wheel assembly under the train, including the framework that holds the axles and any necessary attachments, such as third rail shoes.
The truck is independent of the car body and swivels to follow the rails.
On single truck cars (such as some foreign cars, especially freight wagons, and some streetcars) the truck assembly is fixed to the car body.
Yes you are right
The truck consists of the wheels and axles, the frame that holds them, the traction electric motors, the brakes and the bolster that the body is pinned into.
The body also has a bolster with a king pin that plugs into the boslter on the truck
A subway car basically is a unit that rests on two trucks. If the bodies are articulated the front of the unit rests on a truck, there is a truck between the two connecting bodies and at the end of the unit is another truck.
The bolster is a crossmember on the body on the truck or the body that supports the weight of the car body
On the car, the bolster with the king pin runs from side to side of the car and supports the weight of the body.
____________
[__|______|__] ^ ^
Bolsters
| | | |
^ ^
Trucks
On the truck the bolster recieves the king pin and transfers the weight and ballance of the car to the suspension and the frame of the truck. The wheels and axles are connected to the frame.
It is easier to think of how it works if you think of a box car
The car body is a unit and sits on two trucks that have a frame Brakes and four wheels per truck.
That makes sense. I suspected that was what the truck was. What I now know is the truck I thought was just the wheel assembly. Thanks.
Anyone comming to the old LIRR Rockaway ROW walk this Sunday?
This seems to be a forgotten trip. Not much talk about it except
for the listing in the "Upcomming Events" section.
I'll do my best, 10:00 at 63rd Drive , I'll be wearing palmcorders,
dumb look , and walking slow {bum knees} .
I'll be there, weather permitting, camera in hand.
The time has been changed to 10:30 at the token booth. Wear gloves to help push through the trees, and be prepared to go down another hill.
TNX 4 TIME CHG
03/09/2000
Scaling another hill?
Shades of the Polo Grounds shuttle tour?
Bill Newkirk
I believe this one is down only.
It's likely to be muddy - they're talking rain on Saturday.
I'm going to pass - may try it on my own in late April/early May (before the trees come out) or if there's a replay. I am nursing a pulled ribcage muscle I got while coughing - (no smokes in 6 days now)
last Saturday. It hurts like hell except when I lie down. Have to save my energy for Monday's road trip with Simon Billis and subway-buff.
Wayne
Suggestion: When Doug & I did the Bay Ridge walk we both had hard hats on & weren't bothered by anyone, as you'll look like you're there on purpose for some reason.
Mr t__:^)
Mark W. will probably have his hard hat and MTA vest. That makes it look like an official tour.
03/09/2000
I toured this ROW about 10 years ago with a friend,we wore streets clothes yet we didn't look "official".
I guess because the ROW is indeed a part of "Forgotten New York". I can't make this trip because of a recent shoulder injury this past January. I don't want to risk an re-injury scaling down that embankment near the LIRR Mountauk division.
Check out the very long abandoned electrified freight siding and removed switch (hard railed) at Park Lane. Also check for a "Y" with trestle near the encrouched parking lot on ROW (apartment building). I was told the residents in that building have political connections and are against reactivation of the ex-Rockaway branch. Also check on the Jackie Robinson (ex-Interboro)Parkway overpass, NICE !
Bill Newkirk
It's been almost 10 years since I've been on this ROW, and I've never been above the crossover with the active Montaulk branch. Will this tour include the whole thing, all the way to the junction with the A train at Liberty Ave.?
03/10/2000
Sorry I can't answer that because I won't make the trip. I assume that weather permitting, they'll walk as much as this ROW as possible. Barring any fences or any other obstructions that will deter the hardiest of railfans.
WEAR GOOD SHOES!
Bill Newkirk
Here's a question.
Earlier today or yesterday someone (I think Kevin Walsh) said to make sure you check out the overpass to the Jackie Robinson (Interborough) Pkway on the R.O.W. I have been taking the Interborough to and from work for many years now and have never seen the Rockaway Line ROW from it. I've seen the ROW many times from the LIRR Main Line, Jamaica Av, Liberty Av, the "A" Train, etc, but never from the Interborough. (I see the Montauk Line from the Pkway) I assume its W/O Woodhaven and E/O the cemetaries. But where exactly? Anyone know? Kevin??
03/11/2000
Jeff,
That was me who said to check out the Jackie Robinson (ex-Interboro Parkway) overpass. After driving over it a few thousand times, it does look impressive. However, I can't pin point exactly where it is on the JR Pkwy. I'll check out my road map that includes NYC streets.
Bill Newkirk
It would be about 300 yards (give or take a few rods) EAST of Woodhaven Boulevard, a short par 4. I believe the Rockaway ROW goes under the Jackie Robinson Parkway, but don't quote me on this. It should be clearly marked by a metal electrical transmission post, minus the wires.
My Great-Uncle Cecil used to live on Park Lane South. I mentioned the Rockaway ROW to my Dad and he remembers seeing trains crossing over Park Lane South on occasion when he went to Cecil's house.
Wayne
Thanks Bill and Wayne. For some reason I was looking W/O Woodhaven when it is E/O Woodhaven. I'll try to look for it now. It used to bother me that I couldn't find the Main Line on the Robinson Pkway untill I realized it was over that long overpass by Queens Blvd. At least I do know where the Montauk Branch crosses the Pkway, I've even seen a tri-level go by on that overpass. By the way Bill, sorry for getting you confused with Kevin Walsh!!!
Hello All,
As of now, The tour is on. I plan on having it rain or shine. If the turõut is less than expected, I will have a "Shortened" version covering White pot jct. to the Glendale cutoff with a full tour next week. I hope to see you all there.
10:30 63rd Drive by the booth.
-Mark
P.S.
If there is a change, It will be posted around 8:15
Is it only the 75' cars that use 8 side doors per car, or do the 60' B division cars use 8 doors. If so, why do IRT cars of the same legnth only use 6?
The IRT cars are about 51 feet long, not 60 feet. Four doors per side would eat up way too many seats.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
There are no IRT cars of the same length (60 feet). All IRT cars are 50' 1" long and have 6 door panels per side. All BMT cars of either 60 or 75 feet have 8 door panels per side.
Don't you mean 51' 4"? That's what my sources say.
Actually, it depends on where you measure. Over the anticlimbers it's nom