When I was younger (hell, even to this day!), I would make up whole fantasy worlds with fantasy continents and fantasy countries with fantasy cities, and above all, fantasy subways. I was never a good artists, so I would rarely make drawings and diagrams, but I still remember a good measure of it. So, who's up for a discussion of subways and transit systems that exist only as neural connections in each of our heads?
How about the Line running from Throgs Necks via Second Avenue, Water Street, Atlantic Avenue, Washington Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Parkside Avenue and Ocean Parkway to Coney Island? And also continuing down Flatbush Avenue to Avenue U. After the Flatbush Avenue line was "built", it was extended over the Marine Parkway Bridge to Breezy Point and Far Rockaway. Just imagine the condition of that bridge after all the train runs across it!
No, I'm talking about a FULL FANTASY world. No New York.
I can't imagine a world without New York!
I like to see the R40 slants odd # married to R40M even # and vice a versa, I,d like to see an eleventh car R42's perhaps made singles , and added to line that could handle 660ft of passanger service. the original planners of the IND allowed for expansion but some of the platform space has been taken .This should present only a tiny problem
for the professionals intrusted to care for the rolling stock.
I want the #7 train rerouted to ditmas ave. and the "N" to main street
using a consist of nine married odd couple R40 slantlR40m's.
Intagrate the # 7 and the PATH from 34th ST and extend Ditmas "EL"
to La Gardia Airport. Extent Path to Newark Air Port.
Build a Hilex serving all terminals , Departures above, arrivales
below at both.
Put transit service over underutilized Hellgate bridge serving Conn.
Bronx, to both NY airports. The Amtrak /conrail line of the Hellgate is very very very close to LGA and the NY & A freight line criscross the LIRR at several locations .Lets not forget the Forgotten spur,
the Rockaway Branch that goes past the outskirts of JFK.....
How,s that for F A N T A S Y ????
you are full of yourself!
Not with REAL CITIES!!!!
Who is this Guy taking my handle 1-Brighton Express. I am gone only one week and I am being plagerized. When will it end
You don't OWN the Brighton Express, the only thing that identifies you uniquely is Bob. You can ask the other person to modify their name. You were first so you have priority.
I certainly would be... I too have always been preoccupied with cojuring up fantasy skyscrapers, bridges, subways and entire cities. In fact, I became so obsessed with it that I decided to pursue it as a career and become an architect.
"Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistency. Remember that our sons and grandsons are going to do things that would stagger us. Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty."
-- Daniel H. Burnham, Chicago architect. (1864-1912)
-- David
Chicago, IL
So you got to be everything that George Costanza pretends to be, only for real!
02/01/2000
That's a tough one, you say no New York?.........Hmmm....The only Fantasy Subway I can think of is the Second Avenue subway which New York City has been fantasizing about since the 20's!
Hey!, you changed your handle again. Why do I get that feeling you used to be BMT Lines-NYC Transit?
Bill Newkirk
One handle Bill
No, how is it possible that BMT Lines and I had arguments if we were the same person?
Here is a history of my handles as far as I can remember them:
Jack Arthur (various modifiers used)
Eugenius D. Train
Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius D. Train (various modifiers, incl. Royal Island)
Defy Reason
Defy Reason and counting
From the banks of the River Stownz (one message only)
A post it note
I've been a bad post it note
I won't be a post-it note much longer
I'm not a post-it note anymore!
Humans: The Deli Best
Humans: The Bombay Best
Humans: The Calcutta Best (just joking!)
As for email:
onlyjoex@earthlink.net - Still Valid
mvmworld@crosswinds.net - No longer valid
Back to onlyjoex@earthlink.net
@metrocard.cjb.net - ID is whatever you want it to be (the subdomain is the important part), mail to here is forwarded to Earthlink address.
I used to draw detailed maps of imaginary cities in my downtime when I was working nights. I gave away some as gifts but I still have a couple of them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh, please, not this again.
David
For the last few days, every time I log on to SubTalk I get the unsorted "chronological" listing, even though my preference has been for the "reverse threaded" listing. I set it back to that and it works for that session, but next time it is back to the chronological listing. Is this happening to anyone else, or is it just me? If it's me, what can I do about it?
I haven't had those problems and I don't even have a computer, I have WebTV. I originally had it set for only one day's postings for faster loading and that and my name and email always comes up whenever I go to SubTalk. Occasionally however I don't get the "new" next to new postings which I hate because I like to know where I left off last time. I think I only lost my cookies once or twice, I think when Dave changed servers and I've been coming to Subtalk for over a year.
I've had occasional problems with losing the SubTalk cookie too - it appears to happen whenever Anon_e_mouse Jr. visits another board that he occasionally posts on. I've gotten in the habit of closing Netscape when I leave the computer so the latest cookie is saved on disk, rather than just in memory, and that seems to reduce the problem (but not eliminate it - there's one website he visits that wipes out the last three or four most recent cookies, which invariably means SubTalk, no matter what I do).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are worse things than loosing your cookies once in a while. They are easy to get back though.
So, I just read that the 3200s from 1993! in Chicago aren't air conditioned. What BONEHEAD was responsible for this? Now THAT is someone who belongs in Bellevue. Which lines use these cars so if I ever visit Chicago, I'll know what to avoid?
The 3200s are VERY air-conditioned.
David
So why does chicago-l.org state that they aren't?
Good question, but Chicago-L.org is incorrect. I ride the 3200's almost every day, so I can assure you that they do in fact have air conditioning.
But if you still want to take the word of chicago-l.org over the people who actually use the CTA on a daily basis, that's your perogative. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hey, I don't want to do that! I'm just surprised that a website like that has such a falsehood in it. What else on the site is wrong?
I could have SWORN I saw otherwise. Maybe the owner changed it before you visited it.
OOPS! I screwed up as I was backtracking.
This response was to message 91405 by David Harrison.
I could have SWORN I saw otherwise. Maybe the owner changed it before you visited it.
I think you're right. I'm 99% certain the site was changed sometime during the day today, because I followed your URL and read it for myself before I posted my response. IIRC, it said something about the 3200's being the "first cars in decades to be delivered without air conditioning." I could be wrong, but it's highly doubtful that both of us misread the website the first time around.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Shouldn't that be LONGACRE Square? The true original name.
Not sure where you read this, but your information is incorrect. All cars on the CTA system are air conditioned. (Now, whether or not the a/c actually works is another matter entirely, but the 3200's are usually the coolest of the fleet.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[ Not sure where you read this, but your information is incorrect. All cars on the CTA system are air conditioned. (Now, whether or
not the a/c actually works is another matter entirely, but the 3200's are usually the coolest of the fleet.) ]
CTA busses, however, are a different story. There are a large number of CTA busses without A/C. Many were ordered that way in the 1980s to save $$. Some older ones which once had A/C no longer do (was never repaired when it broke).
All of the new busses the CTA is ordering now will be Air Conditioned.
-- Ed Sachs
Boston did something similar. All buses from 1966 to 1975 were air conditioned. Those delivered in 1976 had it but it was never used. Everything from then to 1988 came without it. The MBTA then retrofitted the 1988 buses with air and the 1994-1995 order came with it. It seems to run in cycles. Either we can't maintain it or we can't live without it.
The buses that had disabled air conditioning have been retired. Now, all buses that have a/c have it enabled.
What a bonehead move; CTA wanted to save money, so they DISABLE the a/c on the buses that came with it.
Anyway, currently the 1983 MAN artics have a/c, the 1991 metros and the 1995 new buses (forgot the model). However, most buses in Chicago still don't have a/c. One of the largest bus purchases ever, the 1991 TMCs, did not come with a/c.
For a time, Denver's RTD buses which were equipped with A/C had that feature disconnected, and new buses came without A/C. Swamp coolers were installed on those vehicles later. The entire bus fleet is now air conditioned, IIRC, as are the LRVs. Luckily, our climate is semiarid, with low humidity, so even on a hot summer day you don't break out in a sweat.
I just went to Chicago-L.org and it clearly states: "For the first time in decades, the new (sic) are equipped with both air conditioning and openable windows in case the AC doesn't work."
How did you misread that the 3200's don't have AC? When AC breaks down in a sealed window car--the car becomes an oven. Hopper windows can be opened for a little relief. The 2200 and 2600 cars got hopper windows during mid life rehab.
David Harrison
The problem is that often times, the operator won't know that a car on his train doesen't have A/C, so even though the car has no A/C and openable windows, they will remain locked. Since they're only hopper windows, why are they locked? Passengers should be allowed to open them in case of A/C failure.
So people won't open them when the A/C is on. It's a waste of energy to do so.
The bids like most things have a difference of price due to differrence of quality The highest bid of 2.2 billion dollars (two point two billion) consisted of among other things marble stations for an 8 mile subway This figure is still more than one billion lower than transit wants to pay for 3 miles of subway I somehow cannot help but think that transit doesnt plan on putting in marble stations since with only 3point five billions there wont be any money for such frills
I have never seen specifications for NYCT subway stations that call for marble, outside of a few station floors (such as Franklin Street, which was privately funded with a stipulation that the funds could ONLY be used for cosmetic improvements). Where can these specifications be viewed?
David
Dave they are not in any court case so I can not inform you where to go. I could mail them to you but I am using them as an ace up my sleeve. In december i contacted Carl Campinile from the new york post to offer him a deal. He would report on steinbach compensation case being fixed and i would mail him the documents. The last email I had from him was on december 31 over a month ago Some more evidence on media not interesting on reporting on transit corruption. Please feel free to confirm my comment His office number is 212 930 8638 Another thing you can discuss with him is I told him about a conducter with the Transits presidents credit cards. The police did not procecute since the conductor was LEGALLY in possecion of them. I gave him the precinct where it happened and other details to confirm my story. The next day was the article on people buying metrocards with stolen credit cards. I mailed him yesterday a letter on pataki stationary telling him a little bit about myself and enclosed some correspondence with senior management to further sustain my credibility so he would write a story on steinbachs compensation case. I seriously feel i gave a non taxdeductable donation to the post office.
Getting back to second avenue subway, the ta did not request marble stations and glass elevators. The bidders offered it. Like you goinng to buy a car and the salesman offering you a range from cadillic to compact. I just mentioned the bid because it was the most expensive of all 3 and still was over one billion dollars (american) cheaper.
Getting back to steinbach comp case i tried to get the pataki administration interested but i was told he was 30 years old and assuming he would live to 70 years that would cost 600,000 dollars. And all he did for the passengers and mta was unimportant.
Since the Second Avenue Subway (stubway?) isn't in design at this oint, the bids in question must have been from circa 1972.
As to the rest of it, I'll let others make the phone calls.
David
from within last 90 days When the actual engineering work that went into them occured i dont know. However even if they were from the 1970"s (and they are not) inflation over last 25 years is roughly 300 percent. 3x the highest bid of 2.2 billon for an 8 mile subway system is still a lot less than 13 billion that the mta is claiming it would cost.
I do not understand you Dave. In previous posts you tell me to present documents to prove my allegations are legitamite. I give you places to go to check out my allegations. You tell me that you dont want to impersonate Steinbach because you are afraid it is illegial. I then tell you how to reveiw the files without impersonating anyone at state supreme court. I even tell you how to confirm my statements without leaving your home (office) just by making a local phone call. You tell me however you are to lazy. In addition you now tell me that my bids are from 25 years ago. They are not.
HISTORICALY lines where built after the 'RIGHT " people owned the adjacent property, or the right vender would build the new line.
Witness the P.A. pouring a gadzillion tons of concret Which must be paid for , rather then resurrect the Rockaway Branch for a shorter
ride and a lot less Peso,s for ROW with many many possible connections
and routes.
LAST 90 DAYS. CHECK THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE THAT THIS MESSAGE IS BASED ON FOR MORE INFO ON HOW THE FIGURES IN ANY EVENT ARE ASTRONOMICAL
my evidence? Has anyone here even bothered calling Carl Campanile at the N Y Post 212 930 8638 ?
The engineering that was done in the 1970s for the Second Avenue Subway is obsolete. Standards have changed in the 25+ years since the Second Avenue Subway was an active project. Anything that was done then would have to be redone...and that hasn't happened yet.
The $17 billion MTA Capital Program Mr. Johnson referred to in a previous post isn't underway yet and may never be. It's being held up in Albany. One of the impediments is that a suburban legislator wants a program of similar scope for highways.
With respect to Mr. Johnson's comments about my "laziness," it's not my place to do an investigation of his charges. If anyone wants to undertake the project, go right ahead. I'd be interested in hearing the results. It might be difficult, as the incidents cited by Mr. Johnson allegedly happened between 6 and 15 years ago, and many of the principals allegedly involved no longer work for NYC Transit (such as Charles Monheim and David Gunn). I should also state that it's true that an NYCT representative COULD HAVE lied on a witness stand, it's also true that the defendants COULD HAVE lied as well.
If anyone wants to sort through this mess, by my guest. I'm not going to talk on this subject any more.
David
the engineering was NOT done in 1970's It was done very recently. I am not an engineer but i would be interested in how engineering standards have changed. In any event i doubt that engineering standards have doubled the costs over inflation. However all this is irelevent since the cost figuring was done in 1999 dollars
Dave, Carl Campinille is still at the N Y Post. Give him a call and ask him why he doesnt want to do a story on corruption at transit. If you need his number it is 212 930 8638
I made several statements which you challenged concerning criminial activity of transit management. You were within your right to ask me to put my money where my mouth is by showing you the evidence. I have done such. It is now within my right, to request from you to refrain in the future from casting aspirations on my charachter and knowledge of transit operations. If you dont even want to make a local phone call to confirm my statements after asking me, either believe me or stop challenging me. If you are afraid of your phone call being traced just go to a pay phone
Yesterday, Acela Regional service between Boston and NYC began with trains traveling around 110mph. They will not reach their intended 150mph+ until later this year when service extends down the NEC to Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.
Has anyone gotten a look at the trains in service. I can only imagine what South Station looks like with catenary hanging around.
Acela Regional trains will not be reaching 150. The current service is running with existing equipment, and is all electric, eliminating the engine change at New Haven for train traveling to Boston on the Shore line. Trains via Springfield and the inland route to Boston will still change power at New Haven. These are the existing Northeast Direct services and the Metroliners.
When the all-new equipment from Bombardier finally arrives and is in proper working condition, those trains will travel at up to 150mph, but will average around 90. These are the trains that will replace the current Metroliners.
-Hank
[These are the trains that will replace the current Metroliners. ]
What will happen to the Metroliners? Will they be used for service in the Empire Corridor?
They might. But New York State wants to use rebuilt Turboliners as the premium service between Albany and New York City. The Metroliner cars are probably going to be part of the Acela Regional service. I hope some of them get assigned to the Inland (Hartford/Springfield) Route. The Inland Route service really needs to be improved. Does anyone know what's in store for Hartford/Springfield service?
And I anticipate some will be assigned to the Main Line betw Philly & Harrisburg. Last months issue of Trains magazine has a 2-page article about the route's acquiring of AEM7 lcocmotives once Acela Express is up and running. "Busines Class" and food service is also planned. Kudos to PennDOT! This native Harrisburger / NYC transplant is very happy!
/*Does anyone know what's in store for Hartford/Springfield service?*/
The same shitty diesel service we've been getting for years. Along with the attendant power swap at NH, unless they import a few P-32s. Ack, those things can't get out of their own way.
I've also heard rumors of it being reduced to a shuttle run, OR being handed to Cdot, which would effectively mean it's getting killed, as Cdot hates mass transit (witness the non usefulness of hartford's bus system, the less than optimal condition of the NH line's wires, and the Shore line east's flakey service.)
Then again, northern CT hates mass transit too. Oh hell, this area hates economic development....
I seriously can't wait to get out of this dump - I'd rather live in Jersey than Hartford. And I'm a NY native!!!
Same old service. Here we have Amtrak celebrating improvements to its Northeast service yet they are doing little, if anything, to improve service to Hartford and Springfield. But I heard those rumors too.
An Amtrak conductor told me that the Inland service might be eliminated unless ConnDot were to take over the service (of course that would mean the end of service to Springfield unless Mass. were to operate that part of the line).
I read in Railpace Magazine's July 1999 issue that some trains will become shuttles between New Haven and Springfield while others will continue on to D.C. But no change in the number of trains on the Inland Route. And I think Amtrak is going to continue to use the ugly, noisy F40s for motive power.
It's inexcusable that Amtrak has given the Inland Route stepchild status. They are throwing away a line that has potential for success. Look at the Empire service between Albany and New York and the Keystone serivce between Harrisburg and New York. Why wouldn't it work between Hartford and New York? So what if the RDCs and SPVs that ran the Inland Route didn't work fifteen years ago? They could use Flexliner DMUs which operate successfully in five countries and did very well when Amtrak ran them across the U.S.
It's the service that needs improvement. The people who run ConnDot just don't get it that there's too much traffic on I-91. It's eight lanes wide at some points. What are they going to do when Inland service is gone? Widen 91? Good luck! Towns, cities and other organizations will be fighting that in court for years just like they're still doing with proposed Route 6 upgrades through Bolton and Coventry. If ConnDot thinks widening 91 is not going to be a problem, they've got no idea what they're going to face.
Amtrak and ConnDot need to wake up and smell the coffee! Improving service on the Inland Route is the only way it's going to get better. They need to bring back the second track, take away many (if not all) of the railroad crossings, install high platforms at the stations, increase the service, and make it more convenient, faster and comfortable. They should use combinations of Flexliner DMUs and EMUs on trains going south of New Haven. Only then will the service become more popular.
That same conductor who told me that Amtrak may end the Inland service also told me that it could be popular again. Well this is one way to do it. If Amtrak and ConnDot continue to ignore this line, they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
Well there is nothing special about the Metroliners except maybe that the cars have more leg room. Metroliners use standard Amfleet coaches and they are Pulled by AEM-7's. When the ACELA trainsets replace AEM's from Metroliner work some of the AEM's will go to Keystone service and the rest will be distributed around the system. Amtrak also hopes to get rid of the E60's, which are used or heavy hauling and that's what the new HHP-8 locomotives are for. So with all the extra AEM's I can see Amtrak adding NEC trains or selling some AEM's to the likes of NJT, SEPTA, MARC or even CDOT and MTBA. I would love to see an AEM in New Haven colours.
Acela Regional service. Some already have the black and white regional signs near the doors.
I heard about it. Was it in revenue service?
I heard it was 10 or 20 minutes late due to problems.
We're talking about ACELA Regional here, which is NOT the forthcoming ACELA Express "tilt train." The first departure on Monday morning ran about 20 minutes late due to mechanical problems prior to departure. While waiting at Mansfield for the 7:11am inbound to Boston on Monday morning, I witnessed this train southbound at that location at 7:09am (Mansfield is about 2/3 of the way from Boston to Providence).
I also understand that the VIP special train, which left Boston at 9:30am on Monday, was late. But this was due to long-winded speeches!
Amtrak would have made points with the public if the train departed on time - without the VIPs!
The Times indicated that some of the tardiness was due to an "engine problem before the initial departure (15 minutes or so), and that there were scheduled stops for speech-making and back-patting along the route, extending the overall "delay."
So that train used AEM-7's, not the HHP-8s?
When do they begin service, when Acela Express begins in the spring?
You want to see documents fine
Car 3534 had problems in june and july 1989 with car doors opening repeatedly involving door operater number 2 There was a passenger incident involving Evelyn George with a G2 to investigation and discipline which mentioned further the incident
You want to see the report involving Charles monheim cancelling all subway inspections? go to the state supreme court building at 360 adams stret by transit headquarters go to the file room where all records are kept and check out the ledger book for steinbach who filed a case april 6 1992 against ny transit take down the file number and then go to the records room and read the file Judge Yoswein who handled the case by the way was a former transit lawyer and dismissed the case as a favor to transit
Want to see transit testimony that commendations are really violations? Go to workers comp building and make pretend to be steinbach wanting to photocopy his file for an appeal Ask to see his file from 1994 case where you will see transit submitting all his commendations as if they were violations
Do you want to see documents that transit is falsifying medical records to steal pensions and force employees out on the street? Check out the greivence number 345 where documents are entered proving this including the Monheim document mentioned earlier This greivence caused Kiley resignation from the mta board. I also have documents that kiley approved the sabotage of doors opening between stations but that is not in the greivence This greivence by the way has never been heard
Have fun Steve and anyone else who wants to read them Bring plenty of money to make copies but dont expect a single media agency to pay any attention or govt agency either
I already knew about the incident with 3534. It involved a car that inspectors inspected 6 times after overhaul by MK and never performed a critical safety test. The incident you refer to occurred at Smith-9th St (right?) The supervisor was disciplined and ultimately retired. The charges against the hourly employee were dismissed because several people who should have been held responsible - were not. Only the last person to inspect the car was held accountable. As for your contention that the media ignores these incidents, you are wrong. This particular incident received a lot of press due to it's nature. As long as you have seen the reports, why don't you explain what happened.
the franklin shuttle The train was fixed after Steinbach reported it to dave Gunn (then ta president) in the summer of 1989. As far as explaining what happened I already did. If trains dont break down there is no need to buy new trains. I have inspected the car since and it has worked fine at least in regards to door number 2. However before conducter steinbach reported it was sent back from the yards every few days with the same problem in same door number. Luckily for the passengers no one got killed. After he reported it mean distance between breakdowns shot up. In science it is important to find a control and I therefore refer you to the 6 months before Steinbach complained MDBF were very stable. And if you want to say it was because new subway cars arrived this was at the end of the new cars arriving. I have never seen an article on any train having indication with the doors open, however i have seen several articles on doors opening between stations. I have also seen a letter from Robert Kiley (former mta board of directors)saying fixing subway doors that fly open between stations is grounds for termination. I can tell you where to find a copy of his letter but first I want to see you find any of the letters i mentioned earlier about Steinbach or greivence 345 or Charles monheim or that compensation case
I also knew that it was the wrong door incident that I mentioned. Car #3534 was assigned to Coney Island in 1989. I was referring to a Jamaica Shop incident to see if your info was correct.
I disagree with your conclusions about MDBF as one car out of over 700 does not tip the scales significantly. However, I did check the history of that car for 1989 and found some of your facts are correct.
Now I'd like to know what your point is other than your incorrect conclusions about car repairs and MDBF. Feel free to E-mail me privately.
What do you mean SOME? I went back to my post and checked what i wrote. I find no facts that were wrong. I again state management is knowingly and willfully killing the passengers to obtain govt assistance. I have in previous posts mentioned were to find documents proving my statements. If you dont want to impersonate steinbach at workers comp go to 360 adams street and read his article 78 proceeding filed april 6 1992
When i mentioned mdbf figures i was not talking about car 3534 I was talking about the entire fleet A and B division. By 1989 most cars had already been delivered or rebuilt. for 6 months before steinbach mileage between breakdowns had not changed markedly After he wrote the accident report on evelyn george however the mdbf figures shot up. All except for one month when monheims bulletin was in effect. The bulletin was nullified when sept 12 1990 greivence 345 was filed charging management with falsifying the medical conditions of its employees. This caused such a stink that Kiley was forced to quit. However this grievence never went to arbitration. Do not bother to call the mta ig about it. All they investigate is employees. Management is immune to their investigations since they are members of the same political club. When i was with Pataki i told him that they dont even save enough money to pay their rent. His response was to move them into 10 columbus circle wich the mta owns so they wouldnt have to pay rent.
i am out of new york now several years so i lost contact if he is not who is?
Yes he still is.
the FBI was interested in a sabotage train wreck planned for friday rush hour. it is interesting that instead there was a dragging caused by indication problems at of all places union square. what makes this interesting is that there has not been any major incidents recently and in one shot a major accident happens involving my posts about door problems and union square where major corruption happened. It is at the least a nice coincidence and at most a planned act of sabotage. I am going away tommorrow for the next 3 weeks for army duty but if anyone wants to continue this further please email me
Months ago, I announced that I was keeping a history
of the different handles that people have used as
posters on SubTalk. It was to include the date of
first use and discontinuance, special interests,
things to avoid in referring to these people ( in my
case it was Niagara Falls and the Susquehanna Hat
Company ) and a measure of the person's notoriety
and general level of hostility coming from and
directed toward the person.
However, recent transmogrifications ( I never used
this word before ) by one particular poster, who as
of yesterday was posting as the Bombay Pest, have
exceeded my poor power to continue in this project.
Honestly, I never started the project, so do not
e-mail me with requests for the most recent list. I
am just using this as a pretense to flame my young
friend...
If you really wanted to flame your friend just type in all caps or address one poster directly.
And mention that your favorite car is the R-33 single.
The way Willy's favorite system is Atlanta?
Not to mention the railfan window.
Seriously, heypaul's posts are more amusing than annoying, IMHO, and non-inflammatory. As long as we're on the subject, I started out as Steve B and added the 8AVEXP part last summer, on the 34th anniversary of my first subway ride.
heypaul, I am very disappointed in your dropping this much anticipated project.
In fact I was planning to change my handle to "Danger Mouse" or "Captain Scarlet", but now I fell there is no need since the "History of SubTalk Handles Project" is defunct.
:-(
Sadly yours,
Doug aka BMTman (as always)
I have chosen to restart the project. You must either mention the name change, or it must be obvious. If I am unable to tell that two handles are the same person, I will order your excommunication.
I will start now.
I have changed my name to reflect what is believed to be the common view of me at the present state of time.
Well, I'm not the type to make such observations, but
NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was hopping that you'ld become the SubDude again !
Mr (small) t
Oh Thurston, you gave it away, I posted to Doug about his idenity change without giving the name.... LoL!!
What is this AS ALWAYS Bull Crap Mr. BMT Man or are we forgeting a little handle change you went through a month or so ago???
Old age my friend....
Lou From Brooklyn
Who grew up as Lou from Staten Island (HS Age)
Who was in k-12 as Lou From Commack, LI
Who was PreK as Lou From Queens
Hey, Lou! The handle 'Subdude' was a mere fignewton of your imagination!
He never existed (in this space/time continuium at least!)
:-)
Doug aka BMTman (FOREVER!!!!)
Too bad those kids had to learn the hard way that riding atop subway cars is not kosher.
When I was in high school some friends joined me in what we called "subway surfing" which was merely betting who could ride the longest without holding onto the poles or straphangers.
Did anybody do something similar in their youth?
Doug aka BMTman
I elevator surfed, rode on top of elevators and jumped from one car to another. Stupid Youth that I was.
In high school, my friend loved to tell the story of some kid who was elevator surfing in Far Rockaway and was crushed when the thing went up to the top floor. His favorite part was saying they put some of the remains in a Waldbaum's grocery bag.
Teenagers, whaddya gonna do with `em?
Sad to say these two kids weren't too bright. At least one kid's mother knew he was a grafitti vandal, and of course she couldn't stop him from doing that. It's the same old story, everyone will be held at fault for this except the kids and their tragically disinterested parents. The photo of one of the kids in the NY Post was of him in a subway car. I'd like to meet the parent that would give a newspaper a photo like that of their dead son. The level of stupidity in this city is simply amazing.
Sounds like the parents will be suing the TA. If the parents of the ten year olds who were out at 3 a.m. and crawled over three fences to get into the bear exhibit at the Prospect Park Zoo can sue, so can they.
La Machine.
-Hank :)
Appearently elevators are popular playthings, a friend of mine is an elevator repairman,he told me recently that at this time of year his company gets several calls to repair damage to elevator cars due to burning Christmas trees placed in them.He told me of such an incident in CO-OP city several years ago where the heat was so intense that it severed the hoist cables,the car plummeted some 30 stories.
A few years ago it was popular practice in public housing projects to break the hallway door windows and stick your head or some other inaminate object into the shaftway.Atleast one "youth" was de-capitated and as a result we all now must have gates on all elevator hall and car windows,these make it impossible to see what floor you`re on `till the doors open completely. Another case of expense and inconvience due to idiots.
Stupid Stupid, They deserved to die, and somebody should present them with Darwin Awards. At least they are out of the gene pool. and While we're at it, someone should neuter there parents.
hey thats a little harsh their parents are not to be blamed. for their childs stupidity. lets have a heart and not bash someone that cannot protect themselves. and lets get back to some real sub-talk.
I heard today in my school that 1 of the kids used to be in my school. He was at my school 2 years ago. One of the teachers who had him told me that he was a nice kid. He was in a Special Ed. class. He loved tagging trains. Until that night when he and a buddy decided that tagging wasn't enough. He went surfing.
Whoa!!!!! I think most regulars know that I'm no bleeding heart when it comes to subway miscreants. However since I am likely one of the few people here who has seen the results of Subway Surfing first hand, I think I can comment from a unique perspective.
My first 12-9 as an RCI was in 1982. It was 15 or 16 year old who was riding atop of a #1 train on the elevated structure. When the train went into the tunnel, this particular young man continued to ride until the train passed under one of the passageways over the tracks (I believe it was 191 St). Unfortunately, the young man was crushed to death betwee the car roof and the underside of the bridge. I saw the body on the roof and whenit was lowered to the platform and 'bagged'. If you saw it, I don't think you'd say he deserved to die. No one deserves to die like that. No parent deserves the punishment of having to identify the pulverized body of one of their children. If stupid kids don't deserve compassion - the parents do.
R36-33s Fan-
You are one sick individual!!!
Well I grew up in Rural upstate and we used to do bus surfing which was the same idea. Ride as long as you can, anticpate the curves, don't touch the seats. You had to do it on a dark night when it was impossible to see the curves coming to be considered really good at it.
What's truly sad is that the same question keeps arising: To What Degree Is The Public Sector Responsible For Protecting People From Their Own Stupidity??
More and more, the answer is: Completely And At All Costs.
I know that when I was in high school, about 5 years ago I used to see kids joyride on back of RTS buses. They would stand on the bumper and hold on to the A/C grill. I don't see this anymore. The orions seems harder to do and with huge gaps in the A/C grill, I think that kids get the idea. The bumpers are slanted and maybe some of them fell. Anyway people do a lot of stupid things and transit is usually held responsible.
I sought out Slant R40s to ride between the "A" ends, and I sought out empty cars so I could do back flips with the handholds. R12, R14 and R15 were particulary suited for this exercise, with their little square handholds mounted on a bar. I could put my feet up on the bar making it easier to do the flip. One time I actually got up ON TOP of the bar and rode there for a bit. My Dad was beside himself and had to help me get down. This was #5915 high up on the #5 line back in 1969. Last backflip I did was on May 11, 1991, aboard R40 "B" train #4378. I had quite a few beers in me at the time.
Wayne
[I had quite a few beers in me at the time.]
Hey, Wayne! Don't you know it's not healthy to drink 'n ride! :-)
Doug aka BMTman
"In their youth?"
I'm teaching it to my kids!
--Mark
It's actually a very important skill. You could be in a crowded car with no place to hold on to, or no place convenient, what do you do?
ever jumped up when an elevator is racing down ?? MAN WHAT A LANDING !!!
( now remember folks dont try this at home ) .................
02/05/2000
Does the kidneys wonders !
Bill Newkirk
There is an article concerning the status of Acela Express in the
Washington Post today. You can read it here.
Unfortunately, due to the current testing schedule, Acela Express may
now be delayed until this summer. Bad break for Amtrak!
Chaohwa
I commented a few days ago about the fact that the latest printed official subway maps show the J-train's 75th St (formerly Elderts La.) station on the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn-Queens border, while previous versions of the map showed it on the Queens side. Either is defensible, really, since parts of the station are in each borough.
But, here is something that is totally inexplicable: the official online map (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm) shows the Brooklyn-Queens border in the wrong place!!
The first thing I noticed about the online map was, not the border, but the fact that the graphics are reminicent of the graphics which were used on the subway maps immediately before the most recent revision. Then, however, I saw the big mistake.
As depicted, the border starts out OK at Newtown Creek, and then proceeds in a sort-of southeasterly direction. So far, so good.
But, whereas in reality the border turns sharply east just north of Jamaica Ave. (only to turn south again at the Dexter Ct./Eldert La. area), this map shows the border continuing on its southeasterly trajectory.
So, according to this map, the whole issue of whether the Eldert La. station is in Brooklyn or Queens is settled -- it is in Queens, and so are Cypruss Hills, Crescent St., Norwood Ave., and Cleveland St.!
This spurious border, which seems to roughly approximate the location of Schenck Ave., hits the A/C-train between Van Siclen Ave. and Shepherd Ave., placing Shepherd, along with Euclid Ave. and Grant Ave. in Queens. The border then hits the south coast of Brooklyn just east of Canarsie's Fresh Creek Basin.
Upon closer inspection, this map has a few other mistakes. For one, it shows the E-train bypassing the old Van Wyck Blvd stop (a stop which is missing its new "Briarwood" label, by the way), and hitting only the Jamaica-Van Wyck stop. In reality, however, the E hits both Van Wyck stops.
Also, B/Q service is shown to stop at 57th/6th, with the a shuttle to Queensbridge starting from 57th/7th and shown in yellow.
Strangely enough, the new northern terminals of the B and C are shown correctly, with the B going to the Bronx. However, didn't the changes on the E (regarding the Van Wyck stops) and the B/Q (restoring service to Queensbridge and obviating the shuttle) occur before the B/C terminal switch?
I am amazed to find such a map on the official site! Why don't they just put up a scan of the printed map, which does not have any of these ridiculous errors?
Ferdinand Cesarano
The E train skips the Van Wyck Briarwood (Blvd) stop Monday's thru Fridays from 6:00 A.M. until 7:30 P.M. It stops there at other times. For practical purposes, since most people ride at the above times, showing it skipping Van Wyck Briarwood is appropriate.
I just spoke with the MTA's webmaster, and she was aghast to learn of the errors on this map. She said that a new map would be put on the website shortly which will correct the errors of the one that is there now.
And, as it turns out, showing the E skipping the Briarwood-Van Wyck stop was indeed a mistake. The new map will show both the E and F stopping there.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Really? I've been wondering for months why they hadn't updated the subway map, and just assumed they didn't care about keeping it up to date. (After all, how long did it take to get any kind of schedules back on the site ... ) Is there an address on the MTA website for comments about things like this? I remember trying to look for one, without success, but that was a while ago.
No, the B/C terminal switch occured well before the shuttle on 63rd Street was created. So the whole time that shuttle ran, the B ran to the Bronx.
Does anyone know if the R-142 will be having test runs this weekend, and if so the time and locations.
Does anyone know if the R-142 will be having test runs this weekend, and if so the time and locations.
Maybe I can find out for u blazer. I'll keep u posted.
Does anyone know if the R-142 will be having test runs this weekend, and if so the time and locations.
not to sure. family member of mine who works for the MTA said that they are stored up in the 180th train yard at the moment. they probably are going to test it out, just don't know when. I hope soon so I can get a sneak preview ride!
02/02/2000
Being off from work today (Tues. Feb.1) I decided to chance the Dyre Ave line to see if they were being tested. Riding a northbound #5 entering Gun Hill Rd station I indeed saw the R-110A like front of the R-142 in the distance.
The cars S-7216,7217,7218,7219,7220-N were on the test track with numerous employees with track vests. This is the first time I saw them in person, and the cars do look impressive. I was busy taking photos, but did notice one thing. On the front LED route sign, it happened to be showing red. The sign was going through a test mode showing a red color. The numbers were 0-9-S, the first sequence was numbers only, second was numbers in a circle and third was numbers in a diamond. The side signs were also going through a test mode only showing routes #2 & #4.
Bear in mind that this was a gamble that paid off. If anybody goes there 11:30 tomorrow and the train isn't there, it could be in the shops going through adjustments. I didn't speak to the personnel on board, so I can't tell you if they test on the weekends. We'll leave it up to this message board and somebody who knows something will post it.
BTW - I also photographed Redbirds in comparison with the R-142's. One thing I noticed even though there is welded rail there, the Redbirds actually sounded "heavy" in motion while the R-142's sounded very light when moving. The AC traction propulsion does sound strange.
Bill Newkirk
The Bombardier R142 is doing night testing and headed south on Track M on the 2/5 lines at 11:30PM. A locomotive (#69) followed the test train for a second time since the set came out last week. What is the puprose of this? To make sure the train doesn't drop dead at some location? The set returned north on Track M at Jackson Av and was turned south to head to some unknown location. I saw the set from my window and made 2 observations about them. The cars have very bright interiors, when compared to previous generations. What about sounds? They're unusual. I expected the cars to sound like its R110A predesessor, but instead it sounds more like the R110B. The cars appear to be silent in their movement.
That's all for now, more R142 adventures to come!
-Stef
P.S. Does The Source know if the Kawasaki Cars are going to do overnight testing?
02/02/2000
One thing I forgot to mention, these cars of course don not have H2 couplers, and an adapter would be needed for emergency movements.
The #7200's are the Bombardiers' ? I get them mixed up.
Bill Newkirk
No sir. Actually, 7211-7220 are the Japanese fleet, while 6301-6310 are the Canadian fleet. 6301-05 were on the road over night. One of the places it visited, was the Jerome Av line as I found out in a radio transmission.
As for the cars without H2 heads, this is to be expected. As Steve explained to me, WABCO stopped producing that coupler, and the TA had to select something else - a coupler similar to that in the R44, R46, and R110B. With this new coupler, the R142s now become incompatible with everything else.
-Stef
They'd be incompatible to begin with. Too many electrical differences, not to mention the AC motors.
And since the TA has freight couplers on the majority of its work equipment, an adapter would be needed no matter what 69 would be pulling, unless it were work cars.
-Hank
I let you guys know if RTO/CED will run the R-142's this weekend.
02/03/2000
Doesn't the R-142/A represent the first new IRT subway car since the 1938 World's Fair cars that don't have pantograph safety gates on the fronts? Interborough Rapid Transit, welcome to the world of the Bologna springs !!
Bill Newkirk
Don't know about this weekend, but they ran tonight...on the Brighton Line! I saw them enter Prospect Park northbound (from the RAILFAN WINDOW of a southbound Q) around 9:40 PM.
David
The AC traction
propulsion does sound strange.
Does it sound "21st Century Like", similar to the 01800 red line cars in Boston? -Nick
The Coupler used on the R-142's is manufactured by WABCo. This coupler portion was originally designed by Ohio Brass which was taking over by WABCo in the early 1990's. This stlye of this coupler is used on the R-44, R46, R-110B contracts and could be found on the MBTA, Metro-Dade, MTA Baltimore, LAMTA, SEPTA systems. The R-110A's have a WABCo N-2 coupler, like the ones used on the LIRR and Metro-North RR's. WABCo no longer offers the H-2-C coupler in their product line. Parts for the H-2-C are still obtained thru WABCo.
I'll bet there must be a humungous surplus of H-2-C couplers with all the linking into 4- and 5-car sets of R-68s and R-62s, respectively, which has taken place. Not to mention controllers.
the Redbirds actually sounded "heavy" in motion while the R-142's sounded very light when moving.
Wonder if the trucks are using those steel wheels that I once saw at CI shop that are supposed to be much quieter? I forget their name, but something about having somekind of insulating material in them??
--Mark
They're called ring-damped wheels, and I believe they are standard now.
David
While in schoolcar yesterday my instructors were given their copies of the training manual for the 142's and it is about the size of the Bronx phone book. ( both white and yellow pages )
check out those sources i mentioned? you will be especially intersted in the greivence 345 which contains Charles Monheim authorisation to discontinue inspections
From your posts you appear to have b division credentials in car maintenence
Your assumption is correct.
I also knew RCI Herschowitz when he worked out in Rock Park in the early 80s.
STEVE GIVE HIM MY REGARTDS NEXT TIME YOU SEE HIM
What does the TTC use to keep the rail free of ice and snow including the third rail? Same for the CTA.
The TTC uses de-icer on the rails. Last January during a massive snow storm the TTC took on other measures such as running trains over open cuts at rush hour intervals 24 hours a day just to keep things moving and not stopping at two open cut stations to ensure that the trains would make it through.
These measures were not enough to beat the storm and the subway had to be replaced by buses where there were open cuts for three days.
The Scarborough Rapid Transit system, has a more sensitive contact with the fourth rail (the Ontario government designed it - don't ask) and was shut down for five days. The the elevated part of the line is in a cement trough that collects the snow!
If you want to know more - check out this report from the TTC website about deicers for the SRT
regards from Toronto
http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f760/_conv.htm
what ever happened to the other train manufacturers? how come they couldn't be picked to build the R 142's and many more to come? what happen to Budd, St. Louis Car, Pullman Standard? wouldn't it be cheaper to build new subway cars for the MTA than to do it with the imports?
Again cheaper is not what transit is all about. Stealing is what it is all about. check my previous comments. I have a bid of 2point 2 billion dollars for a subway 8 miles long with glass elevators and marble stations 8 miles long Transit wants 3 point 5 billion dollars to build a 3 mile long subway with the rest costing another 9 billion dollars I also have the bargain bids for less money with out marble stations and glass eelevators
You don't need marble stations - plain IND style tile will do. Perhaps a BMT style in a station or two. Also marble tile on the platform floors, but nothing beyond that is necessary. Keep the design simple and utilitarian, and you will keep the overall cost down.
Wayne
Hey! We've had to suffer with utilitarian station design for decades now. It's time for it to end.
Two words:
Art Deco
Do you want a simple station that is easy to keep at least looking clean, or a fancy design that can't be kept clean in any way shape or form?
There's no reason why something beautiful can't be functional as well -- look at the main concourse of Grand Central Terminal or the subways of Moscow. As long as the maintenance of these facilities is performed and they're not allowed to rot, in the longrun they don't cost more to maintain. People also seem to respect the nicer facilities moreso than the utilitarian and decrepit ones.
I think the debate over whether or not subway stations should be clad in expensive marble is missing a much larger issue.
Architecturally speaking, any mediocre architect can slap $1000 marble all over a bad design and call it good architecture, but it takes real talent to create a work of beauty out of mere concrete and granite.
And that's exactly what Chicago-based Harry Weese Associates mananged to do with the Washington Metro, particularly the underground stations. Far from being examples of architectural grandstanding, the factors that had the greatest influence in the success of the design were almost purely functional in nature.
Here are the design principles of the Washington Metro, as published in the December 1995 issue of Progressive Architecture:
Underground stations:
Concrete structural vault provides unified surface.
Vault surface always out of reach of users.
All lighting bounced upward off of vault; no light sources visible.
Nothing suspended from vaults.
Forced air enters the station through coffers of vaults and is exhausted through grilles at track level, thus eliminating the heat and odors of braking steel wheels at their source.
High-efficiency acoustic absorbers in coffers of vault.
All signage on pylons arising from platforms. (Horitonzal signs added later for legibility from inside trains.)
Users touch only very durable materials: Concrete, granite, bronze.
Entry to station via mezzanine with view of entire station, for security and wayfinding purposes.
Mezzanine plan tailored to circulation diagrams; no dead corners.
Mezzanine located at minimum height above platform.
All destinations within stations are clearly visible; orientation is self-evident.
Minimum number of structural columns, round for minumum obstruction.
Above-ground stations:
Platforms identical to underground.
Continuous skylight strips.
Minimum number of columns, located away from platform edges.
In following the above guidelines, Harry Weese managed to create a very monumental yet very functional station design. The design has been so successful, in fact, that Weese's firm has been retained to design all the new stations in the system to this day. (Sadly, Harry Weese himself died fairly recently.)
The moral of the story: Good design is still good design regardless of whether or not it is covered in expensive materials and fancy ornamentation, and bad design is still bad design regardless of whether or not it is covered in expensive materials and fancy ornamentation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
With the differnt mindset in New York -- the ingraned 95-year tradition by some of not respecting anything underground, I would think using the concrete vault design in New York City for, say the Second Ave. stations, would mandate the MTA contract with a full-time crew of sandblasters, because unless all the stations were island platforms, they would present too tempting a target for our army of spraypainters.
Okay now this one I can comment on with some authority - woohoo! Some of you should see the light rail system in Portland, Oregon. They do a wonderful job with Concrete - while most stations are just simple street-level platforms, a couple are worth noting:
The Underground station for the Zoo (the deepest in North America and the second deepest in the world), is very beautiful and is mostly surfaced with marble and decorate ornamentation. It's very pretty. HOWEVER, the station west of it at "Sunset Transit Center" is built only of concrete and in my humble opnion is four times as cool as the one at the zoo. The Sunset station is built into an open-topped recessed area with two side platforms. At either end the train enters and leaves a subway section, but the station itself is daylighted. It is surrounded by metal rails with cross supports bending like reeds blowing in the wind. But the station itself is straight concrete and when standing in it all you can see is the sky framed by the reed railings. It is very cool. To add to that, the bus area is built in a semicricle with the station recession at the center - concrete sidewalks radiate out to each of the bus stops from the station, and natural field grass is planted between them. It is probably one of the most beautiful transit centers I've seen, and all with concrete, railings, and some field grass. I have some pics I will try to post sometime soon
GOODNIGHT TO ALL IN NYC,
Abe a.k.a. AbeyBaby
AND if you have the Federal tax tit available,... The DC Metro is a prime example of monumentalist architecture. I suppose its okay for an 'imperial' capital, but the money could have been better spent. The flashing lights are cute but hokey. The signage on the cars conversely is nearly illegible. The finest design still is the as delivered slant 40 with the giant lettering. Also the insistance on overly deep bores and zillions of feet of escalators is ludicrous. Yes once you have put the tunnel too far down you need motor assist SO THINK. While imperfect, the IND in general is a good compromise. BART, DC Metro, and the rest of the 'new systems' have fallen prey to the (irony) Stalinist (as in Moscow) museum /temple style. What we need is a sufficiently clean design and very frequent trains! The station should be something you rarely spend time in. All that said, Weese & Co do deserve credit for the air handling and noise damping. , but I will take noisy and even dirty in trade for ALL NIGHT and FLAT FARE.
Don't be dissin' on BART, most BART stations are very utilitarian in nature and aren't ornately decorated at all. The downtown stations aren't very far underground either - they are only as far as they need to be because of the fact that the BART tracks in downtown SF are one level below the MUNI METRO light rail tracks. BART stations, compared to other heavy rail systems, are very inexpensively designed. I don't think Moscow (which is relatively flat but has the deepest subway station in the world) is anything like BART. Having never ridden the DC METRO I can't speak on that system, but BART is very efficiently designed. And there is only about a 2 1/2 hour break in the service each night, otherwise it runs. Besides, the NYC subway lines only run every hour at night anyway, right? There's no excuse for crappy service but BART service is good and very functional. So don't be dissin' on BART, okay? I might add that BART trains can go 80 mph and make the 36 mile trip out to Dublin-Pleasanton in only 40 minutes - I'd like to see even the 7-express hit those kind of speeds!
Does anyone know what type of construction is being used for the 2nd Avenue "Stubway?" Hopefully the MTA can look to BART as an example on how to design stations. But they should also consider the use of the flashing lights on DC Metro platforms (I actually didn't know those lights flashed until I saw the DC Metro on a Discovery Channel program about subways).
What is the "Stubway"? Is that a truncated version of the old second avenue subway plans? If they did build it the BART underground stations should not be used as a model - the downtown stations are cool but the Oakland underground stations rival Chambers St. they are so ugly
It is. It will only operate from 125th Street to the 63rd Street Connection. No service to the Bronx is planned (this is the MTA we're talking about). Then it will run down the Broadway Express tracks. I've only seen BART's downtown San Francisco stations. Why wouldn't they work for 2nd Avenue?
The downtown San Fran stations are very well designed and would work great on second avenue. It's the rest of the BART underground stations, especially those in Oakland, which are ugly. Although I must admit that the Berkeley central station is kinda cool.
Well, right now the only thing happening is a plan to come up with a plan, so don't hold your breath. No studies have begun, no funding has been found, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think that the Oakland stations under Broadway are ugly, and the downtown SF stations except Embarcadero do look ugly to me, although they're better designed than the Oakland stations. Downtown Berkeley looks cool, so do Ashby and Glen Park, Balboa Park has to be the ugliest station in the system, the entrance looks like a rusting metal shack next to a freeway overpass.
Abe writes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Besides, the NYC subway lines only run every hour at night anyway, right?<<<<<<<<
WRONG! Headways on N.Y.C. Subways at night are 20 minutes in the majority of cases.
Peace,
Andee
Yes, the original BART stations are for the most part pretty utilitarian, but all the newer stations are huge overbuilt temples to wasted money with grand, monumental entrances surrounded by elaborate parking lots.
AND if you have the Federal tax tit available,... The DC Metro is a prime example of monumentalist architecture.
As opposed to what? Banal-looking transit stations that resemble detention facilities? The public deserves better than that.
I suppose its okay for an 'imperial' capital, but the money could have been better spent. The flashing lights are cute but hokey.
The flashing lights are a safety device to warn of approaching trains, particularly for people who are hearing-impaired.
The signage on the cars conversely is nearly illegible. The finest design still is the as delivered slant 40 with the giant lettering.
I'm talking about the station designs, not the rolling stock. Rolling stock is replaced every couple decades anyway, but the physical infrastructure will last for generations.
Also the insistance on overly deep bores and zillions of feet of escalators is ludicrous. Yes once you have put the tunnel too far down you need motor assist SO THINK.
Deep bore construction made perfect sense for the DC Metro. In addition to Washington being a city with steep hills, deep-bore tunneling also prevented the city neighborhoods from having their guts ripped out for the sake of shallow cut-and-cover tunnel construction. And even if shallower tunnels were used, escalators and elevators would still have been required for passenger comfort and wheelchair accessibility.
While imperfect, the IND in general is a good compromise.
The IND may have been a good compromise in the 1930's, but times and public expectations have changed drastically since then. If the DC Metro had been built to IND specifications, it would live up to everybody's worst expectations of rapid transit and would be a filthy, graffiti-ridden eyesore today. The fundamental lesson here -- and this has been demonstrated hundreds of times in hundreds of cities -- is that there is a direct coorelation between the esteem in which architecture regards the public and the esteem in which the public regards architecture. In other words, if a subway station is designed to be a well-designed work of beauty, then it will likely be treated as such by the public. If a subway station is designed to be a banal utilitarian cellar, then it too will be treated as such by the public.
BART, DC Metro, and the rest of the 'new systems' have fallen prey to the (irony) Stalinist (as in Moscow) museum /temple style.
Bullshit. The whole point of my previous posting was that the monumental style of the DC Metro was a DIRECT PRODUCT of purely functional design considerations. Example: In the early stages of the design, the underground stations were to have plain, flat ceilings. However, the vaulted design turned out to be much stronger structurally and more cost-effective financially. Thus, the beauty of the resulting vaulted ceilings is merely a side effect of "utilitarian" considerations.
On a more fundamental level, the built environment we leave behind to future generations is by far our greatest legacy, and speaks the most about our values and aspirations. Nobody gives a rat's ass how much it cost to build St. Peter's, The Eiffel Tower, The Brooklyn Bridge, or Fallingwater. Past generations are remembered for their architects and builders, not for their accountants and pencil-pushing beaurocrats. The Sydney Opera House in Australia was grossly over-budget, but nobody regrets for a second that it was built. Some things are more important to our cultural legacy than a line item on a budget.
What we need is a sufficiently clean design and very frequent trains! The station should be something you rarely spend time in. All that said, Weese & Co do deserve credit for the air handling and noise damping. , but I will take noisy and even dirty in trade for ALL NIGHT and FLAT FARE.
Frequent service and a flat fare are not mutually-exclusive of good design. But the topic of my posting was not about frequent service or flat fares; it was about how the physical design of the Washington Metro moves beyond narrow-minded attitudes about good design.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I have heard rumors that WMATA style underground stations cost *less* than a regular box station would have costed.
I have heard rumors that WMATA style underground stations cost *less* than a regular box station would have costed.
It's not a rumor. According to the December 1995 issue of Progressive Architecture (which had a rather in-depth article regarding the 20th anniversary of the DC Metro system):
The equal role accorded to the architects did not guarantee that the engineers would readily share design authority. We must thank the intransigent Gordon Bunshaft of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, who dominated the Commission on Fine Arts in the 1960's, for the vaulted station configuration. Weese and his staff, impressed by the overseas transit systems they had visited, favored vaulted stations, but the engineers -- Deleuw Cather -- had proved to their own satisfaction that a flat-topped station configuration would save money; as a result, the architects had not been allowed to broach the subject of vaulted stations before the commission. But Burnshaft came up with the same concept at a Commission of Fine Arts meeting and insisted it be given further study. WMATA manager [Jackson] Graham ordered a third-party recalculation by engineers Amman & Whitney, which showed that for locations with an overburden of more than 14 feet -- almost all those planned -- the vault was more economical. Thus the architects' preference prevailed over the ostensibly objective judgement of the engineers, only because the review panel insisted and the client handled the issue wisely.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This makes sense. The vault essentially supports itself as one continuous structure - lots of reinforced concrete, but one big structure. A traditional flat-top would require lots of columns to support it or a very heavy (and thick) 'roof' which would be supported by equally massive side walls. Of course, we all know that WMATA didn't skimp in its construction techniques anyway...
Well, and I can hardly call this skimping - they DID switch from pouring concrete into moulds and forms to building pre-cast concrete vault panels and erecting them underground - the six-coffer (Arch II) design found at places like Glenmont, Mt.Vernon Square, Georgia Avenue, Columbia Heights (modified design) AND the soon-to-open Congress Heights. It did save them construction costs and still kept the overall strength of the vault design.
I am not sure if the Red Line stations between Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan and Medical Center also employed this "pre-cast" technique, or were they also poured. They are similar to the above-mentioned, except they have four coffers rather than six.
Wayne
>> Nobody gives a rat's ass how much it cost to build St. Peter's, The Eiffel Tower, The Brooklyn Bridge, or Fallingwater.
If nobody had cared how much it cost to build St. Peter's, today's Protestants would still be Catholic. :)
Anyway, I'm with you on good design for subway stations. It's absurd to say that the subways are or should somehow be an architecture-neutral environment--people react to any space they're in, and if they react badly to the space they'll avoid it if they can, and vandalize it if they can't.
The concept of "the elegant solution" is useful here--I'm not thinking of Mrs. Astor's drawing room, but of high-school geometry, where the proof that solves the problem in the fewest steps is considered both the most efficient and the most sophisticated. (Did you know they don't tech proofs anymore in geometry? I don't know what they do instead.) Moving tons of people through a constricted space with lots of dirt on top of it is a real architectural problem, and the Washington concrete vaults are one example of an elegant solution to it.
Whether we'd get good design with a Second Avenue Subway: almost certainly not. New Yorkers don't have any reason in the existing system to expect good architecture underground, and TA isn't likely to budget for outside architects to raise those expectations. (Of course, the Jubilee Line demonstrated that outside architects were often able to find solutions so elegant that they paid back the architecture fee in construction savings compared to the engineers' proposals; but it's a separate line on the budget, and justifying it would mean that much more bother for somebody.)
Lastly, current construction in New York amply demonstrates that there are no architects working here that you'd want to build a subway station. I can't think of too many national architects who'd be suited for it either--not too many, at least, who aren't already soured on working with local engineering bureaucracies, like Pei at the Javits Center. If they wanted to call Paris, or London to get some folks who have cut their teeth on the Jubilee Line, that would be swell, but it seems doubly unlikely.
Dave-- your mentioning high school geometry proofs awakened me. Unfortunately they still do geometry proofs in many high schools. That is a whole other issue.
The issue of style deeply interests me. I'd like to quote something out of a math book that I xeroxed maybe 30 years ago. Unfortunately, I don't know the title or author, but I think he would understand.
Style is like good manners. Its lambent presence is barely noticeable, but its absence is conspicuous. Take in a broad sense, style can be discerned almost everywhere. One can speak of style (or its absence) in playing tennis,in hosting a dinner party, in presiding over a meeting, in teaching a class, or even in writing out the solution to a problem in calculus.
In such activities style is characterized by the light touch that draws harmony out of imminent disorder and makes difficult things seem easy. Everyone hates the burden of unnecessary fuss and bother; the grace that comes from easing this burden is the hallmark of stle. In any purposeful activity it is style that eases the way.
Style must be natural because it cannot be affected. Affectation will draw attention only to itself, while style would draw attention straightway to the goal at hand.
Style is an outgrowth of education, not a product of it, for style cannot be readily taught or learned. It is acquired almost incidentally, like good manners, by those who want to please. Yet the final aim of education may be the cultivation of a sense of style.
Geometry proofs are still taught in MQ3. One is required to answer one proof on the Sequential Math II Regents.
Lastly, current construction in New York amply demonstrates that there are no architects working here that you'd want to build a subway station. I can't think of too many national architects who'd be suited for it either--not too many, at least, who aren't already soured on working with local engineering bureaucracies, like Pei at the Javits Center. If they wanted to call Paris, or London to get some folks who have cut their teeth on the Jubilee Line, that would be swell, but it seems doubly unlikely.
You hit upon a common lament in the architectural community these days. While there are a few bright spots out there, we find ourselves in the midst of a very uninspired architectural movement. During the 60's and 70's, many architects and planners had incredibly idealistic ideas about how the built environment could impact the future of society. Since then, we have been trying to repair the damage their creations have wrought on our cities (Boston City Hall Plaza, anybody? Cabrini-Green of Chicago?), and have over-compensated by retreating into either backwards-looking nostalgia for the past or bland architectural mush designed not to offend anybody for any reason.
This seems especially true in the United States, as most of the best architectural talent seems to be coming from Europe and Japan at the moment. Santiago Calatrava, Sir Norman Foster and Tadao Ando come to mind as representatives of a bold, forward-looking architecture that will hopefully find its way across the pond in time.
This is not to say that there is no architectural talent in the US right now; Frank Gehry is turning heads with his sweeping forms, and my former boss, Ralph Johnson of Perkins & Will, is widely considered a rising star in the national scene for his projects that embrace their urban contexts while still asserting themselves as thouroughly Modernist buildings. There are also countless small firms and individual practitioners which are producing very good work on smaller-scale projects, but find themselves struggling for recognition and the oppurtunity to move on to higher-profile projects.
If the Second Avenue Subway were up to me, I'd hire a well-established firm such as Harry Weese Associates (of Washington Metro fame) to oversee and coordinate an overall master plan for the entire line, but sponsor a design competition for smaller local firms to submit entries for individual station designs. The best of the entries would then be commissioned to each design one station along the line. The nice thing about designing one individual station is that the project is small enough in scale to easily be handled by an office of 5-10 people, yet still high-profile enough to be noticed by the public and the design community.
Airport Railway Station, Lyon, France. Santiago Calatrava, architect.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
You're certainly right about the dystopic effects of the utopian vision of the '60s and '70s. I'm afraid, though, that you flatter New York by assuming that period to be an exception to a civic tradition of prestige architecture, like the one Chicago prides itself on. New York has never been a place that encourages distinguished architecture, though the exceptions to that rule are certainly wonderful ones; the enormous pressures of the real estate market here have dictated that nearly all building in Manhattan be speculative, which in turn dictates that its architecture be vernacular--i.e., undistinguished, and the buildings of a particular period largely indistinguishable. As quickly as new problems, methods, or opportunities have arisen in New York building, solutions have been innovated, incorporated into the vernacular formula, and become instant cliches (no-law tenement> Old Law tenement> New-Law tenement> housing project; skyscrapers' progress from 1916-light-law pointy to 1960's FAR boxes in plazas). We prize brownstone houses now, but the stuff was the concrete of its day: cheap, light, easily worked by semiskilled labor, and consequently ubiquitous--it was so standard in the 1890s that Edith Wharton complained about the deadly brown sameness of the miles of avenues. The standardizing speculative impulse means that nearly all buildings in New York since the opening of the Erie Canal have been designed by their developers or by hack architects in their employ, proficient in applying a current formula to a particular site to extract the maximum profit. Projects for individual clients wanting signature buildings--whether homeowners, or corporations building their offices--are thus terribly rare in Manhattan, where it has been so much cheaper to rent or buy built space from a speculator, and they're getting rarer as the market continues to constrict.
Insofar as the city's buildings are diverse, it's because of redevelopment, the replacement of old typical buildings with new ones, which may liven up formerly-uniform streets but has also meant the destruction of some buildings whose real distinction we failed to appreciate: Penn, the Produce Exchange at Bowling Green, White's MSG and Madison Square Presbyterian (which did not last out its own decade), the Singer Tower (tallest building ever demolished, at 47 stories). The preservation movement has raised our consciousness about the worth of old landmarks and old vernaculars, but it has had no effect on the quality or standardization of new building, which is currently dominated by the retail/residential formula of wide-box-under-tall-box, as at Lincoln Square and the new building at Union Square (the latter includes a fifty-foot blank wall overlooking a public park, with bad art pasted on the side to distract us).
Even public projects, which tend to include complex programs that might engender innovative architecture, tend here to be subjected to the current architectural formulae, which naturally sit well with a certain bean-counting intellectual inertia even if they happen not to represent the most cost-effective solution. If there is no remotely applicable formula available, the project tends not to get built, no matter how great the need to the city to solve the problem, nor how enthusiastic architects are to try--the Venturi plan for the Staten Island Ferry terminal has been gathering dust for years, for example.
All this is a long way of saying that MTA will never, ever entertain the idea of individual designs for subway stations. (These guys are about to move offices into 2 Broadway, the spec box that replaced Post's Produce Exchange.) To be fair, the great variety of sites and problems among the new stations of the Jubilee Line simply isn't present along the stubway route: shallow profile, two tracks, straight line, heavier loading on the uptown platform throughout, unless a transfer station is built at 125th and Lex; but no matter how diverse the real situations were, MTA would seek to create a template and apply it case-by-case with as little modification as possible. This is the reason that the IND seems overbuilt, as has been discussed--the institutional assumption that what's good for 34th St. is more or less good for Bedford Park Blvd., or at least easier than coming up with something else. Sure, those lines were built sixty years ago, by a company that no longer exists; but the design culture surrounding them hasn't changed a damn since.
It's still possible to make a standard subway design into a signature project throughout, of course: the original IRT spent a few extra bucks on design appliques and iron kiosks (a very few, given the cost of those materials and labor) with acclaimed results, and Guimard's Metro arches were even cheaper; Foster's uniform subway stations are the other thing to see in Bilbao, if a distant second; the stations on Paris' line 14 are all equally gorgeous. I doubt that MTA will see this opportunity by itself, for the reasons above; it would take pressure from someone with a hand on the purse strings, in Albany or Congress, to get them to hire a prestigious architect. It would most likely have to be a local one, though--what New York politico is going to go to bat for Frank Gehry, to take your example? Always assuming, of course, that those purse strings are going to get pulled at all--so keep knocking wood.
You're certainly right about the architectural climate in NYC. Even the handful of architecturally noteworthy buildings in New York have heavily borrowed their styles from other places: Various European historical styles at first, and then the modernism of the Chicago School after World War II. Even the art deco masterpieces of the Chrysler Building and Rockefeller Center imported their design vocabularies from Paris. Frank Lloyd Wright once scoffed that New York "reproduces much, but produces nothing." I'm not sure if I would put it in quite such blunt terms myself, but he makes his point.
The saving grace of New York City is that the sheer scale of the city and the wide variety of buildings produces a physical environment that is far more vibrant and noteworthy than the mere sum of its parts.
Chicago is the first and probably still the only city in the US to have developed its own original stlyes of architecture; the orignal Chicago School of Architecture by Louis Sullivan, the Prairie Stlye by Sullivan's protege Frank Lloyd Wright, and most recently the international style of the Second Chicago School led by Mies Van Der Rohe (which fermented in Germany before coming to Chicago, but still owing its inspiration to Sullivan) all trace their roots to Chicago. This is no doubt due to the fact that the entire city burnt down in 1871 and had to be rebuilt from a clean slate. Also, the city grew up as a frontier town that has traditionally been eager to explore new directions not just in terms of architecture, but also literature and music as well. (Electrified blues which later "had a baby and they named it rock 'n' roll", Gospel music... writers Saul Bellow, Studs Terkel... The list goes on forever. Most recently, one fo Chicago's more notable exports has been improv comedy talent from The Second City stage to national TV.)
And Chicago still strongly identifies with its architecture today. It is not uncommon for normal people on the street to be carrying on a conversation about the merits of a new skyscraper under construction, and "So, what's your favorite building in the city so far?" is a common question for newcomers. Even the Borders and Barnes & Noble bookstores here have entire sections dedicated to architecture, whereas even their counterparts in NYC tend to limit their architecture selection to one or two shelves at the most. (In any other city, look for the "architecture" section and you'll most likely find books about how to renovate your bathroom or build a deck.)
Unfortunately, the forces of buearocratic ineptitude are also in full force here. Last month I breifly worked on six stations of the CTA Brown Line renovation project which Perkins & Will is doing. It's frustrating to have every design decision either second-guessed or outright rejected by the CTA before the architects are even given the opportunity to discuss its merits. At a typical client meeting, the CTA had 35 representatives present, each of which had to be completely satisfied. THIRTY-FIVE!! This gives the derogatory term "design-by-committee" a whole new meaning, and the best possible outcome is a station design that is merely mediocre as opposed to outright horrible.
The design of the Second Avenue Subway, if and when it ever happens, will most likely be conducted in much the same fashion, unfortunately.
But it never hurts to dream a little... Somebody's gotta do it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
When is that bid from? If it is from the 1970s (when there actually was construction on the 2nd Ave. subway), prices for everything have gone up considerably since then.
NYCTA put them all out of business.
yeah what he said...
I have heard that Bombardier holds all of the pattens from St. Louis, Budd and Pullman. May or may not be true, and by the way they build the Monorail for Disney, Americas favorite transit system.
Bombardier holds Pullman's and Budd's designs. I'm not sure about St. Louis Car's.
David
St Louis did business as somthing like general steel or somthing like that for a while before they quit production so there may not be a direct line to St. Louis Car.
I had heard that they held all North American Patents for passenger rail equipment. If true it's nice that they cared to consoldate the technology and hopefully to preserve the history of the industy.
I thought US Steel/General Steel bought St. Louis before folding it...
That is correct. GSI still builds the GS-70 line of car trucks.
St. Louis died after the R-44 order. The last two cars in that order were the shells for the SOAC cars.
The R-46 was the last order for Pullman, though a good part of the problems were caused by the Rockwell trucks. All of those claims and lawsuits were too much for Pullman
The R-29? was the last for ACF, though these cars did not cause the company to leave the business. Canadian cousin CCF still survives - now part of UTDC after a stint with Hawker-Siddley. Many cars running in Canada and the US.
Boeing built two transit orders, the joint LRV order for Boston & San Francisco, and el cars for Chicago. The Chicago cars generated little publicity and few problems following Chicago's specs. The LRVs put Boeing out of the business due to specs which satisfied noone other than Rube Goldberg.
Moral: Design a good car - builder will profit. Don't - uh-oh!
.
Budd is still around but i guess they aren't making trains any more
Budd built Chicago's 2600-series L cars. No one will ever mistake them for R-32s, that's for sure. The 2200s are another story.
They still make truck trailers and freight cars.
-Hank
[ The R-29? was the last for ACF, though these cars did not cause the company to leave the business. Canadian cousin CCF still
survives - now part of UTDC after a stint with Hawker-Siddley. Many cars running in Canada and the US. ]
ACF is still building freight cars. They just got out of the passenger car business.
-- Ed Sachs
BTW, the R29 was built by St. Louis. The R26 and 28 were built by ACF. It's no suprise to see that the R29 is in the worst shape of the three these days.
I didn't remember which was which - therefore the question mark. Thank you for the correction!
Gerry
Bombardier also is big in recreational vehicle like snowmobiles and those SeaDoo boats (large jetskis).
Doug aka BMTman
I think they are making commuter jet aircraft too now.
02/02/2000
I don't think the NYCTA put them out of business. I believe it was the "low bid" process that did them in.
Bill Newkirk
Take the Pullman Standard Company. The R46's had cracked trucks from Rockwell and Pullman and Rockwell settled with NYCTA at the time for about $77 million. It is industry fact that R46 put Pullman out of business and R44 put St. Louis Car out of business also.
But that's not the city's fault. It's the fault of the subcontractors who gave the R46 truck contract to Rockwell.
Actually, Pullman Standard got out of the passenger car business, last I heard they continue to make freight equipment.
The R44 put St. Louis out of business The R46 KO'd Pullman. Nobody wants mechanically and structurely troublesome cars.
What happened to Budd and ACF? Their last car types for the NYCTA (R32 for Budd and the R26 for ACF) were actually very good subway cars.
Outside the R27/30 and R38, did any car built by St. Louis end up not being a headache?
Pullman went belly-up because NYCTA wanted them to guarantee every individual part. That's like asking GM to garantee the tires, light bulbs and seat cushions on all of their cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Pullman did not have to accept the contract. they went out of business because transit sued them and no one wins against transit
Exactly. Once they agreed to the terms and the amount of payment, they became responsible to meet them. If they couldn't, then they should have passed on the contract.
St. Louis Car's big downfall seems to have been handling the changing technology that the MTA brought in with the R-44. They were NYCTA's main car supplier in the 1960s, despite the largest single order coming from Budd.
The R-17s in the mid-50s, and the R-29/33/36 and R-36WF in the early 60s for the IRT all were St. Louis Car, and all have been pretty reliable. Aside from the R-38s on the BMT/IND, the R-40s' only problem was in front end design, not mechanical. The 40s, 40Ms and R-42s all went into service with little problem, mainly because outside of the exterior sheet metal, they were pretty much the same type of car as the TA had been buying since the R-15 order.
Between the R-44, the R-46 and the Flxible bus fiasco, the 1970s were not a great time for new equipment orders for the MTA.
Pullman-Standard and St. Louis Car are good and dead. The R44 were the last from St. Louis, Amtrak Superliners the last from PS;they sold all the tooling and associated patent rights to all the passenger cars they ever built to Bombardier, IIRC. Budd still builds freight cars.
-Hank
I thought BUDD was dead too. Isn't that the old BUDD factory along the NEC in north Philly right past the El overpass. Its a big plant of some kind, sorta blue. There are abandonned tracks leading to it and on some of the tracks next to the building are old passenger cars. There's a big sign, but it is so faded I can't make a positive ID. However I think I can recognize the BUDD logo. BUDD was such a cool company. They used stainless steel for everything, even aircraft at one point. PATCO uses a mix of BUDD and Vickers Canada (BUDD lisance). If you get a BUDD car it's good luck for the rest of your trip, a VC car, bad luck. Why did BUDD go under. I mean Rapid transit systems are constantly buying new stuff. But like I said when PATCO needed more stuff done BUDD farmed it out, why?
02/02/2000
Wasn't the Budd Company revived shortly as "Transit America" a while back ?
Bill Newkirk
Let's not forget that M-K was building equipment too for awhile.
[ Let's not forget that M-K was building equipment too for awhile. ]
and they went under also. The bonding companies put together another company called "Amerail" to finish off M-Ks contracts, but Amerail was only intended to be a temporary expedient, and has since also folded its tents.
-- Ed Sachs
Is Amerail operating the Hornell, NY, shops now?
In its last years of business Budd was controlled by a German concern, and yes, it was called Transit America for a period before finally calling it a day.
Actually, if I’m not mistaken Budd is also no more. As for St. Louis, they also built the “SOAC” cars which toured the country in the mid-’70’s, as is made clear in the SOAC section of the website.
Will the NYC Transit Museum be hosting tours this month? I took two the last time I was in town but can't find any info on their web site this time around. Called them and they said they would be open for a couple of more months before the renovation begins but he didn't know about any tours.
Will be in town the week of 2/14 to 2/20.
Are you a member of the museum? I received a couple of days ago, a preview of Feb & March tours. On Sunday Feb 20 at 11 AM, there will be a tour entitled Taking the A Train Uptown. They will be exploring several of the stations on the 8th Ave IND line--103rd, 135th, 145th, 190th which is 180 feet below the street level, and 181st. This is the only thing scheduled when you will be here. The give members first crack at the tours, and the reservation period for members is Feb 7 thru Feb 10.
The tours generally sell out fast. If you are not a member, and are really interested in this tour, maybe you could become a member over the phone and then get early crack at the tours. The phone number to make reservations is 718 243-8601. It is the education department.
That sounds great...was planning on going out on Amtrak that day, could delay trip to the evening. Do you know if Penn Station will store luggage for a ticketed Amtrak passenger?
Yes, but only luggage delivered within four hours of train departure time, according to the sign.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's already a solid R-38 consist running on the E.
I rode it on it's last trip from Euclid on the 10:13.
N-4024/5-4087/6-4139/8-402/1-3970/1-S
Archer said they don't plan to lay it up any
where in Queens (Blvd line). So it looks as though it will go back to Pitkin/Euclid to lay up.
We've had THREE, that's 3, switches split in the last 2 days!!
#1 Approx 05:00 Monday on a GO--A train at Utica Ave on 2 track encountered red/red homeball and was told by CC to hook ball, check iron and proceed. He only checked the facing point switch, proceeded, split the trailing point and was tripped by the offside ball!
The tower operator had to run up to Hoyt St to give the lineup to a previous train that was trapped on 4 track which he mistakenly sent there.
Upon leaving Utica tower, he had left the 4 to 2 route in.
The train splitting the switch was the first "regular"
after the GO!!
#2 Jamaica Yard, approx 21:30, Monday--
No details on this one yet--I'll send when I find out more.
#3 207th Street Yard, Approx 00:00, Mon/Tue--
A work train split a switch, more to follow.
3 splits in 2 days, 2 happening within 3 hrs of each other!!
Gee--it looks like everybody's folowing the monthly
"Safety Conferences" & "24 Hour Stand Downs" to the letter--NOT!!
The above are basically 2-4 Accidents/Incidents as described on a sheet of paper. I have to get my crews to sign either an attendence form or multipurpose critique sheet (Bubble Dot Form) stating that they've read about them.
Basically what these are supposed to accomplish is PREVENTION of further accidents (also falls/slips/trips)
and incidents (primarily wrong lineups/splits/going through closed barn doors & doors opening at the wrong time/place).
Obviously they're NOT WORKING!!
What they indisputibility do is create jobs for numerous managers and their attendent staffs (SOMEBODY has to copy the critiques and then file all the signatures!).
(E-mail me personally for their names--Ths isn't the proper forum for "mudslinging".)
There's already a solid R-38 consist running on the E.
I rode it on it's last trip from Euclid on the 10:13.
N-4024/5-4087/6-4139/8-402/1-3970/1-S
Archer said they don't plan to lay it up any
where in Queens (Blvd line). So it looks as though it will
go back to Pitkin/Euclid to lay up.
We've had THREE, that's 3, switches split in the last 2
days!!
#1 Approx 05:00 Monday on a GO--A train at Utica Ave on 2
track encountered red/red homeball and was told by CC to
hook ball, check iron and proceed. He only checked the
facing point switch, proceeded, split the trailing point
and was tripped by the offside ball!
The tower operator had to run up to Hoyt St to give the
lineup to a previous train that was trapped on 4 track
which he mistakenly sent there.
Upon leaving Utica tower, he had left the 4 to 2 route in.
The train splitting the switch was the first "regular"
after the GO!!
#2 Jamaica Yard, approx 21:30, Monday--
No details on this one yet--I'll send when I find out
more.
#3 207th Street Yard, Approx 00:00, Mon/Tue--
A work train split a switch, more to follow.
3 splits in 2 days, 2 happening within 3 hrs of each
other!!
Gee--it looks like everybody's folowing the monthly
"Safety Conferences" & "24 Hour Stand Downs" to the
letter--NOT!!
The above are basically 2-4 Accidents/Incidents as
described on a sheet of paper. I have to get my crews to
sign either an attendence form or multipurpose critique
sheet (Bubble Dot Form) stating that they've read about
them.
Basically what these are supposed to accomplish is
PREVENTION of further accidents (also falls/slips/trips)
and incidents (primarily wrong lineups/splits/going
through closed barn doors & doors opening at the wrong
time/place).
Obviously they're NOT WORKING!!
What they indisputibility do is create jobs for numerous
managers and their attendent staffs (SOMEBODY has to copy
the critiques and then file all the signatures!).
(E-mail me personally for their names--Ths isn't the
proper forum for "mudslinging".)
The solution, of course, will be an order to stop 15 feet ahead of every switch, no matter how it's set and no matter what the signals say :-(
I think I'm just kidding, but who knows?
David
Where are we, BSM? (Sorry Dan L. :)
No, the dead stop before ALL facing point switches (at the switch point, not 15' away) is a fixture of the United Railways and Electric Company, The Baltimore Transit Company and BSM.
All seriousness aside, the actual "fix" for split switches on NYTC is the instalation of electric locks, actuated upon operation of the switch and released by the last trailing axle in the direction the switch was set for.
Yeah, just busting chops. I know that rule is prototype, not
something you guys made up!
Electric locking is already applied to all switches under power
control in the NYCTS...and that's what we're talking about here,
not hand-throws. The situations that Vinny described all happened
because the "bypass" mode was in effect. In the case of the
T/O who was ordered to hook the homeball and proceed, the T/O
failed to observe the rule which advises to look out for broken
rail or iron against you. In the case of that yard move, blame
the people who put the dwarf signal there instead of a few feet
further back of the switch!
Having repaired electric switches after run-throughs, I can tell
you it's no fun. Of course, when a little trolley car runs through
a rigid electric switch, you have the added bonus of re-railing
the car!
This will be covered in Shoreline's Operator Training??
>G< (intresting though)....
Look at it this way: There are no trip cocks at Shore Line, so you won't get tripped in an emergency. You'll be expected to abide by the signals in front of you. If there's a signal set to danger (red), you must stop at the signal in question and ask for permission to pass it. As for switch movements, the switches on the mainline are sprung so as you pass a switch that is set against you it will be possible to pass because your wheels will push the points in the proper direction. Be warned though - you may only acheive certain speeds through the switches. One switch is a particular problem and you have to move at an extra slow speed. A word to the wise - use wise judgement!
Any switches that aren't sprung such as the one leading to the loop, you'll have to get out and turn it to your desired route. Anyway, enjoy your time at the handles of the streetcar....
-Stef
I think it would make sense for the MTA to reroute the E and F south of West 4th. There are already trains on 6th ave that go to Coney Island, and none on 8th.
Too much service and not enough cars available for such a thing to happen....
-Stef
These were facing point split, can a switch be a spring switch on a facing point??
Absolutely not. Just watch your speed and make sure you have the right lineup.
-Stef
In the Branford Elec Ry rulebook, motormen are instructed to
check the alignment of all switches before passing over them,
facing or trailing. This is in addition to whatever the signals
might say. The signals at Branford are used mostly for block
protection, not switch indication. This is appropriate for a
trolley line. Back here in NY, where you are moving quickly and
in the dark, the signals provide an absolute check over switch
position. In NY, if the switch points are hung up in the middle
but somehow the signal clears up, and you go through, that's
not your fault (but nowadays they'll try to give you 20 in the
street anyway). At Branford, Seashore, Warehouse Point, BSM
etc. most electric railway museums, it would be your fault!
Branford has a wide variety of switches to learn about, single-point,
double-point, Ramapo stands, Racor stands, single-point spring
switches and even an electric switch from 1912. Not as bad as
Seashore though where you have to learn to read a single-point,
double-slip switch. Ouch.
Aw shucks, Jeff! The double-slip switch is fun at Seashore! When we train operators, we use a hand-flat to show how moving the four single points changes the configuration of the switch. By the way, that is the only switch at which we require a stop-then-proceed from any direction.
When I was up there in the summer the operator of my car, coming
out of the visitor's center loop and wanting to proeed towards the
main line, stopped, examined the switch, had a conference with his
conductor, got out, threw the switch, proeeded, realized he was
heading towards, um, well, I don't really know the layout well
enough, but y know the other track, backed up, had another
conference, changed the switch again, this time went the right way :)
Let me ask a Seashore Instructor a question about that switch:
Do you have to move the points in pairs? If you line the facing
point say to go straight, do you have to set the leaving
trailing point, or does it spring over?
The Seashore double-slip switch has four movable points. None of them spring; they are held in place by wooden blocks. So any move requires that two of the four points be in the appropriate position (the facing point on the coming-from and the trailing point on the going-to).
We have two operating spring-switches on the property; one each leaving the Talbott Park and Visitors' Center loops. All other switches must be aligned by hand.
Aren't there circuits to verify that the switch points have moved all the was into position before the signal can be cleared?
If you are talking about the subway system, then yes, an
interlocking signal can't be cleared unless the switches over
the route it controls are in alignment
The TA does not use section locking for switch levers?
There were solid R-38 consists on the 'B' this AM too.
As for the split switches, I heard about the A train as it was a main-line incident. It seems to me that if this is going on, the TSSs in te district better start whipping the pony.
Before I post this I wanna say thankx to all of you who answered my question about the Myrtle avenue El. Before moving to Seattle I lived in the windy city for 8 years, and there were always two things I wondered. First, the apparently abandoned section of track extending north from the confluence of the Douglas and Congress lines to intersect with the Lake (a.k.a. "Green") line. It appears from looking at your (excellent) track maps that it is still used as a service track. Me and some of my friends walked the entire length of that piece of El and found arches over one of the Cross-streets that is near Chicago stadium. We figured the arch-supports were evidence of a station - so - my question is: WAS there a station there, and did the Douglas line originally use part of the lake tracks?
Now my second question. As a child, I have a vague memory of seeing an old CTA map from the 20s or the 30s in a museum somewhere. This map showed a 'L' branch from what appeared to be the Englewood/Jackson Park line to the west, with a loop around some square. I have never been down there to look for any old supports or anything though - the farthest south I was ever on the El was to Sox-35th on the Dan Ryan line.
And now a third - having not lived in Chicago for over 4 years,
am I correct in hearing that the CTA has eliminated the old line names? I grew up with "Congress" being the name of the blue line - now it's Forest Park? What's that? Also did they really kill the A/B service on all lines? I can't imagine that - it must take like over an hour to get to the loop from O'Hare now. When did this happen?
I hope that wasn't too many questions at once.
Abe
"Me and some of my friends walked the entire length of that piece of El and found arches over one of the Cross-streets that is near Chicago stadium. We figured the arch-supports were evidence of a station - so - my question is: WAS there a station there, and did the Douglas line originally use part of the lake tracks?"
The 1933 Chicago Rapid Transit Company map shows a station on the old Metropolitan L at Madison and Paulina (the north-south street that runs along the L tracks you're talking about), so yes, there was a station there.
As to whether Douglas trains ever used the Lake Street L, I don't think they ever did in revenue (passenger-carrying) service. The Metropolitan system was built by a different company than the Lake Street line and was operated separately until about 1913 or so. The Met consisted of the Logan Square branch, the Garfield Park branch, and the Douglas branch. Logan Square trains proceeded along Milwaukee Avenue to Paulina where they headed south, and Douglas trains came north from 22nd Street along Paulina. They met the Garfield Park Branch, where all three merged and proceeded into the Loop, entering the Loop at Van Buren and Wells. Basically, the Blue line and the old Met are one and the same, with the Dearborn-Milwaukee subway replacing the Paulina L tracks and the Met's L into the Loop.
There's basically no sign of the turnoff from the Loop to the Met nowadays, but the Douglas still uses that junction to access the Congress/Forest Park tracks into the Dearborn subway, and, as you already stated, the Paulina tracks as far as the Lake Street line are still used for non-revenue moves (shifting empty L cars from one line to another). The Congress/Forest Park branch runs basically on the same route as the Garfield Park branch, which was torn down for the construction of the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway.
"This map showed a 'L' branch from what appeared to be the Englewood/Jackson Park line to the west, with a loop around some square."
That would be the Stockyards Branch of the South Side L. As the name would suggest, it made a loop around the stockyards. Long gone, as are the stockyards it served (though IIRC, the L branch was torn down before the stockyards were).
"Am I correct in hearing that the CTA has eliminated the old line names? I grew up with 'Congress' being the name of the blue line -
now it's Forest Park?"
That's correct. When they renamed the lines by colors (and CTA had been using the colors consistently on maps long before the renaming), the CTA introduced new roll signs for the trains with the destination terminal of the train in white on a background of the line color (or in line color on white for one terminal of the two lines with branches, Blue and Green). At least in my opinion, that makes more sense than to use outdated names -- the Congress Expressway hasn't been called that for decades but the L line still bore that name, and the Cermak branch probably tells you more about where it goes than the old "Douglas" name. And of course O'Hare trains are still labeled "O'Hare" and Howard trains are still signed "Howard".
"Also did they really kill the A/B service on all lines? I can't imagine that - it must take like over an hour to get to the loop from O'Hare now. When did this happen?"
April 28, 1995, according to www.chicago-L.org
To give my opinion, I really don't think that eliminating A/B really added that long to the trip, at least on the O'Hare part of the Blue where it only added two stops. I would think that getting rid of A/B on the Red would have been somewhat more problematic since it added four stops between Howard and downtown. But the Red has the Purple expresses (Howard-Belmont nonstop) as a rush-hour alternative for many.
Remember that when CTA had A/B, since there are no passing tracks, the "A" often caught up with the "B" or vice versa, thus wiping out any potential time savings. It was a common thing when A/B existed for trains to stand between stations for no apparent reason, and the cause was usually a train stopped in the station ahead, even if your train was not going to stop at that station. Also, A/B operation was only during the day on weekdays; weekend and owl riders had to make all stops anyway. All in all, A/B was a useless half-measure and a poor substitute for true express service, and CTA did as well to get rid of it. In my humble opinion, of course.
I think the stock yard tracks were destroyed in a large fire in 1934. Service was not restored until 1935. The rebuilt route lasted until 1957.
Also on what is now the north blue line (Logan Square) I think there was a brach that ran west from Milwaukee street on North Ave out to the Northwestern tracks by Central Park
Also the Ravenswood turned into the Brown line and is now called Kimbal
So now the Ravenswood isn't the Ravenswood anymore? Boy I leave Chicago and the whole place falls apart! Is the Dan Ryan still the Dan Ryan too?
Well, the Dan Ryan Expressway still is, but the Dan Ryan L is now part of the Red Line, and the roll signs for Dan Ryan trains are marked "95th".
95th, eh? Is the Skokie Swift still the Skokie Swift now or is it the "Dempster"?
P.S. Thankx to all for all the info on that old section of el down on Paulina I had always wondered about that
95th, eh? Is the Skokie Swift still the Skokie Swift now or is it the "Dempster"?
Neither. It's the Yellow Line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's just YELLOW now huh? I liked it better when they had colors AND line names - Blue for Congress, Douglas, and O'Hare etc. etc. etc.
Oh well maybe in a few years the CTA will realize the error of their ways
No they won't. Those lines with branches (Blue, Green) have names for them: Cermak Branch, Forest Park Branch, O'Hare Branch. East 63rd Branch, Ashland Branch, Lake Branch.
I REFUSE to call the Ravenswood, Skokie Swift and Dan Ryan lines anything but those names. Ravenswood and Skokie Swift especially are great because they roll off the top of your tongue unlike the new names.
Brooklyn residents still use the old BMT Southern Division titles for the D/Q, B, F, and N: Brighton, West End, Culver, and Sea Beach.
I don't mind using Chicago's color code, even though the Red Line is still the North/South to me.
For one thing the red line has only EXISTED as the red line for the last 7 years or so! Before that the Englewood/jackson park was red and the dan ryan was GREEEEEEEEEEEEN! And i totally agree about rolling off your tongue. I will never call the Skoie-Swift yellow. NEVER I SAY! That is so stupid. And I like the name Ravenswood it sounds pretty unlike some other names. And who was on the thread a while back dissin' on all the names saying something like or "Dan Ryan", a dead mayor or something like that. GEEZ! Whoever Dan Ryan as a dead person is, the freeway is named after him so why not call the el that?
If they changed the Congress to be the Eisenhower but went back to the rest of the old names would the Nth Ward guy be satisfied? The name Forest Park has absolutely no meaning to me. NO MEANING AT ALL! I wil never call it that
If they changed the Congress to be the Eisenhower but went back to the rest of the old names would the Nth Ward guy be satisfied?
You obviously have me confused with somebody else.
I'd be satisfied with an easy-to-use transit system that gets me from Point A to Point B within reasonable levels of time, expense and hassle. If said transit system happens to be a work of architectural beauty and a source of civic pride, then so much the better.
I gladly traded in my roll in tokens in favor of a transit card, and I almost always use the color names for the L. This puts me in the company of most of the people in Chicago outside the walls of Graceland Cemetary. Only a small handful of people here still refer to the "Jackson Park L" or the "North-South Subway." These are usually the same people who were riding around on the L when the Cubs last won a World Series. Anybody who asks directions to the "West-Northwest" line today would be looked at as if they were daft.
Why? The same reason most people call O'Hare Airport by its real name instead of Orchard Field (luggage tags notwithstanding), and probably the same reason most people aren't pissed off about lights being installed at Wrigley Field. Things change, and life goes on. We're talking about a vital part of a major city's infrastructure here, not some artifact of the Museum of Science and Industry.
In reality, the color names are used somewhat interchangably with the original line names. It's not uncommon to hear people refer to the "Congress branch of the Blue Line" or the "Blue Line to Forest Park." For the most part, the color names have been seamlessly adopted in everyday usage by the vast majority of Chicagoans, and so far the sun has still risen over Lake Michigan each morning.
BTW, my use of the Roman numerals on the IRT was intended as sarcasm, to demonstrate the absurdity of mindlessly clinging on to relics of the past. Apparently it went over the head of at least one person.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, I have to agree with you on most things, but lights at Wrigley? Some things are just too sacred to mess with. It just isn't the same, and in this case that's a bad thing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is a good thing, it allows baseball games to be broadcast during prime time. Who's able to watch a baseball game in the middle of the day on Tuesday?
Lights were installed at Wrigley Field in 1941, but when the war broke out, the Cubs management had the light standards torn down and melted as scrap for the war effort, not unlike the fate of the "Zephyr" subway cars in New York City. IIRC, there was never a game played under those lights.
That was the "Green Hornet." The Zephyr surivived into 1961 IIRC.
That's not true. Only older Brooklyn residents use those names, if they do. Everybody else uses the letters.
Really? Not in my experience. By and large the names are still used by both young and old at different times. Any kid that can read will see signs saying Sea Beach, Brighton Beach etc. So they'll know which letter means which name. And they do use the names.
NO! I hate the fact that all trains make all stops. IF the CTA actually stuck to the schedule (and had reliable railcars) the A-B system wouldn't have any problems.
How did it work for all those years? Because of reliable equiptment. The goddamn 2600s screwed everything up. We should still be running 6000s!
The rebuild of the 2600's is well underway and hopefully they will be
better than new when they are done, except for the full width cab, but at least the glass on the left is still clear so you can see out the front of the car.
The 3200's seem to be doing quite well but time will tell. The 6000's were of course PCC cars. The other cars are decendants of the 6000's but sometimes new equipment is not an improvement.
One part of Abe's question wasn't answered. When the Congress Expressway was under construction, a connection was built between the two branches of the old Met "L" at Marshfield junction, allowing Douglas trains to proceed north on the old Logan Square tracks. At Lake Street, another connection was built to connect Met tracks to Lake. So, for a period Douglas trains in revenue service operated over Lake Street to the Loop, circling the Loop on the inner track. Originally, Met tracks to Logan Square and Humboldt Park crossed over Lake Street tracks. There was a two-level station, called "Lake Transfer." By the way, the last time I looked, a few years ago, the Met's bridge over the Milwaukee Road's tracks (now UP?) still existed, minus rails, serving as a signal bridge.
[ By the way, the last time I looked, a few years ago, the Met's bridge over the Milwaukee Road's tracks (now UP?) still existed, minus rails, serving as a signal bridge. ]
The bridge is still there, and still serves as a signal bridge. It spans about 9 tracks which are the combined leads to Ogilvie Transportation Center (formerly NorthWestern Station) on the UP (formerly C&NW) and to Union Station on the former Milwaukee Road.
-- Ed Sachs
"As to whether Douglas trains ever used the Lake Street L,
I don't think they ever did in revenue (passenger-carrying)
service. The Metropolitan system was built by a different
company than the Lake Street line and was operated separately
until about 1913 or so. The Met consisted of the Logan Square
branch, the Garfield Park branch, and the Douglas branch.
Logan Square trains proceeded along Milwaukee Avenue to
Paulina where they headed south, and Douglas trains came north
from 22nd Street along Paulina. They met the Garfield Park
Branch, where all three merged and proceeded into the Loop,
entering the Loop at Van Buren and Wells. Basically, the Blue
line and the old Met are one and the same, with the Dearborn-
Milwaukee subway replacing the Paulina L tracks and the Met's
L into the Loop."
For a little over four years, Douglas Park trains did reach the Loop over the Lake Street "L." Historically, as you note, Douglas Park was a Metropolitan Division line, entering the Loop via the same tracks as the Garfield Park line (and, until 1951, the Logan Square and Humboldt Park lines) between Marshfield Avenue and the Wells-Van Buren corner of the Loop. However, on September 20, 1953, in connection with construction of the Congress Expressway, the Garfield line was relocated in temporary surface trackage along the south line of Van Buren Street. This trackage had no connection to the Douglas "L" structure.
For about six months Douglas trains continued to use the old elevated parallel to the Garfield surface trackage. Then, as expressway construction progressed, this segment too had to be torn down, and on April 4, 1954 Douglas trains were rerouted to and from the Loop via the Lake Street line and a new ramp to the Paulina Street connector (the old Metropolitan line previously used by Logan Square and Humboldt Park trains). In addition, a short connecting segment was built connecting the portions of the Paulina Street trackage north and south of Congress Street.
Douglas trains used this route until June 22, 1958, when the Congress median trackage and its ramp up to the Douglas "L" structure opened. From that date, Douglas became part of the West-Northwest Line, through-routed with the Milwaukee Avenue (Logan Square) line via the Dearborn Street subway.
One track of the Paulina connector remains in service between Lake Street and the Douglas line, but is used only for equipment moves, having seen no revenue service since 1958.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Before the State Subway was opened, did all four NW tracks merge into the loop, did they merge into the same place or did one pair use an off-loop terminal?
Even before the State Street subway opened (1943), the four-track North Side "L" narrowed to two tracks north of the Chicago Avenue station. The Northwestern Elevated, and later Chicago Rapid Transit, had an off-Loop terminal, running two blocks east of the Merchandise Mart station to Clark and South Water, which was used for a limited amount of rush-hour North Side service until about 1948. The physical elevated structure was not removed until some time after 1960.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Er, Clark and _North_ Water.
Alan Follett
The now-out-of-service track that connects the Douglas "L" with the Lake Street "L" at one time was the Metropolitan's Logan Square and Humboldt Park line. There was a station at Madison Street, which would have been convenient to the Stadium. Douglas trains used this stretch when the Congress Expressway was under construction. The original Met "L" tracks from Marshfield junction east were torn down, and Garfield Park trains operated at street level in Van Buren Street. The ramp connecting the Douglas "L" to Congress was built and Douglas trains started using Congress tracks and entered the Dearborn subway. The out-of-service "L" track remains to connect West-Northwest to the rest of the system.
On the South Side, I think you are referring to the Stock Yards branch, which connected at Indiana Avenue. There was a single track loop in the stock yards, with stations named after packing firms. Trains circled the loop counter-clockwise. With the demise of the stock yards, the need for the "L" went away.
And yes, Chicago has lost "A" and "B" express service, along with a general deterioration of service. Too bad.
This discussion of Chicago rapid transit history has purposely avoided use of the moronic color line names.
This discussion of Chicago rapid transit history has purposely avoided use of the moronic color line names.
Why stop there? From now on I think all bus routes and IRT Division trains should be referred to in the form of Roman Numerals.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That part of Broadway should be known as the Bloomingdale Road. And 242nd Street is WRONG! It's just imposing a moronic numbering system on the original, inordinal Bronx street system. The way it was meant to be!
Avenue of the Americas,& International Boulevard to you too. Seriously colors are very useful for the illiterate, and certainly Can be more visible at a distance, but naming systems are just fine too. As to preserving earlier names, while those of us who remember Idlewild are decreasing, I for one refuse to countenance "Reagan" for National if only because I detest him.
"colors are very useful for the illiterate"
So someone who's just moved into Chicago to attend college, and therefore isn't familiar with the intricacies of old neighborhoods (Ravenswood), dead politicians (Dan Ryan), and road names that haven't been used for decades (Congress) are illiterate?!?!
Color names weren't instituted for the illiterate. They were created for people who aren't familiar with the city but still need to get around -- visitors (don't deride accomodating out-of-towners, as they're a major source of income for thousands of people) but also newly-arrived residents. Having lived in Chicago "long enough" to know the old names shouldn't be a shibboleth or "entrance exam".
Transit has to be made as convenient as reasonably possible, and color names are ONE (minor but relatively cheap) means to that end. Yes, many people, if not most people, would figure out the old naming system after a while. But the last time I checked, CTA can't afford to turn away A SINGLE PASSENGER by projecting a haughty "we don't need them if they can't figure out our city" attitude.
Why are there people who take the color names as a personal insult or a sign of the decline of civilization? CTA didn't come up with color naming with the intention and purpose of pulling your nose or the collective nose of railfans, they did it to make the system slightly more convenient for passengers. THE SYSTEM EXISTS FOR THE PASSENGERS, NOT FOR RAILFANS!!!!!! There are people on this board who hate "new" transit cars and want to go back to unairconditioned, non-MUDC (four conductors per train!), wicker-seated cars with unprotected fans on the ceiling and lighting that goes out when the train crosses gaps in the third rail. But while they would be in heaven riding these cars, most of the riding public, after the novelty and nostalgia wore off, would feel that riding such cars daily would be more like hell.
Some people hate Transit Cards or Metrocards, despite their clear convenience and flexibility, and want to go back to the "good old days" of tokens. Why not go back to the old tickets and chopper boxes? Heck, why not go all the way back, abolish paper money and those newfangled coins, and use huge stones for money like the inhabitants of Yap Island in the Pacific?
Things that work well should not be eliminated just because they are old. But just as equally, things should not be rejected just because they are new. The CTA, NYCTA, SEPTA, MBTA, or any other transit agency is not the operator of a rail museum, with the goal of preserving a glorious past in amber. They operate transportation systems that are supposed to be useful, efficient, and convenient for the commuting public of TODAY.
My thoughts exactly... You said it much better than I could have.
Thank you.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unfortunately, railfans are not the most backward looking people in NYC. If they were, we wouldn't have spent billions renovating tenements in the 1980s (which are already re-deteorating). It is some of the City Planners who are against anything new.
Their motto should be Venice or Detroit. Venice is a successful museum city which, as as a result of its lack of redevelopment, is so expensive it is losing its entire non-beautiful people population. Detroit also has avoided new development, aside from the Ren Center, and is also losing its population -- due to falling values and abandonment. The result -- no change in either case. An environmental success story: less traffic!
If the preservationists planners had their way, Manhattan would be Venice and the other boroughs would be Detroit.
I've been somewhat of a nomad in my adult life, and I gotta tell ya, it's not difficult to see that they really did build some things better "in the old days." Take, for example, your average dwelling. The house I grew up in was built in 1929. It's wood-frame and wood siding, but inside, the floors are hardwood and the walls are lathe and plaster. There were decorative baseboards and door and window trim. And we're not talking bout some mansion. This was a regular 3 bedroom middle-class home. And I'd still rather live in a house like that than one of these six-figure suburban brand new "homes." Those poor, abandoned Detroit houses were simply built better than their new white-flight replacements. They're worth saving!
These days, comparable middle class houses have walls and doors that are paper-thin (I've seen elbows go through some with no more than a wrong turn), moldings that are made of cheap pre-fab wood "product," and floors that are often merely plywood covered by cheap carpet.
I think there is something to be said for preservation in light of the slick, machine-mass-produced world we live in now, if only to remind people that manufacturers and service-providers once actually cared about satisfying customers' future needs -- i.e. making a house that lasts, or really going after return business -- as well as convincing them that immediate financial savings is the most important reason to buy.
Railfans, I believe, tend to long for the "old days" not just out of a hatred of all things "new," but rather because they can see the deterioration of quality in general these days. I can see it, and I'm only 30 years old. Please pardon the bleeding-heart nature of this cliche, but, really, for every "modern" improvment, a little of our collective humanity gets lost.
AMEN BRUTHA! AMEN!
Wow, you certainly don't shoot from the hip. You gave that post quite some consideration before posting your reply.
Tom
COLORS ARE GOOD
I think the colors are excellent and are needed for people to get around
BUT WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THE FREAKIN' LINE NAMES TOO? WHat's so bad about a Green Lake anyway?
Yuck! That doesen't sound right. If you're going to call it by the colors, do that, but don't mix them. I'll just always call it the West-South or Lake-Englewood-Jackson Park.
People might mistake Green Lake for Lake Michigan.
Should that not be "V", as in Roman numeral #5?
Wayne
Color names weren't instituted for the illiterate. They were created for people who aren't familiar with the city but still need to get around
I agree to an extent BUT I would also hasten to add that using only colors or letters / numbers in signage to the exclusion of descriptions isn't good either. I remember the old entrance signs which went something like this: "Downtown Trains to Canal Street, South Ferry and Brooklyn via... etc. etc.. etc.." Someone could read the sign and have a general idea of where that service would take him. OTOH today's entrance signs only display route letters / numbers. You either need to enter the station to read a more detailed description on the platform or already be familiar with the map. I would NOT replace descriptions with color codes -- BOTH are useful and should co-exist.
That is exactly my point, as I've been saying in other postings. We should have BOTH! Colors and numbers/letter to help people get around, and line names to tell people where they're going! DUH, this is pretty simple. We can have BOTH! BOTH, I SAY! Oh, and could the guy from the Nth ward stop posting those roman numeral banners here? They're getting annoying. Maybe we need to use different languages, i.e.
Rouge, Howarde
or Brun, Ravenswoode
how IS THAT!
Oh, and could the guy from the Nth ward stop posting those roman numeral banners here? They're getting annoying.
As you wish.
-- David
Chicago, IL
ha ha ha
ROFLMAO! :-) Go, David! :-)
that was funny now show me the TRIANGLE THING as being the symbol for the D-line
It's called Delta.
Then there's:
Raudona - Howard
Geltona - Skokie Swift
Ruda - Ravenswood
Things that work well should not be eliminated just because they are old. But just as equally, things should not be rejected just because they are new. The CTA, NYCTA, SEPTA, MBTA, or any other transit agency is not the operator of a rail museum, with the goal of preserving a glorious past in amber. They operate transportation systems that are supposed to be useful, efficient, and convenient for the commuting public of TODAY.]
You made some good points, but I don't agree that railfans as a group are hopelessly backward-looking. You mentioned the way that some people bemoan the introduction of new cars and want to keep the old unairconditioned ones. I don't see that as a common sentiment at all. There's a world of difference between wanting to preserve some cars when a type is withdrawn from service, saving them from the scrappers for museum use and occasional fantrips, and wanting to keep them around forever in revenue service. Very few people with more than a modicum of knowledge about transit would favor the latter course of action.
You make the point that systems are not museums. But consider the fact that Chicago used to have a historical fleet for railfan trips, but now they are SELLING that fleet off! They say they don't have any more room at the Skokie Shops (the main shops in Chicago), because they want to build more parking for employees there. What a horrible excuse!
Shouldn't a transit authority at least keep a historical fleet?
I think we'd like them to, but ... put yourself in the position of "Mr. Average Taxpaying Citizen". Taxes are high, and there are a lot of projects competing for your tax dollars. Would you rather spend that money on transit improvements, school improvements, more police, or preserving old rail cars? I'm not sure what order your first three priorities would be, but preserving old rail cars will definately be last.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(CTA selling off historic fleet to make room for parking).
THAT is BAD. It shows no pride.
But it could be worse. In many NYC minority neighborhoods, school children are not allowed to play outside during recess because the teachers (who drive in from the suburbs) use the playground for parking.
It isn't just minority neighborhoods. It's wherever you have either LAZY teachers who don't want to walk the 1/2 block from on-street parking (specially reserved for their use, via permit!) or where there is insuffcient parking. I've seen only one of these situations. Guess which?
-Hank
(Where do teachers park in the playground)?
The Petrides School?
That school is the old CSI, which has more than enough parking for the teachers, and LOTS of space for the kids to roam.
-Hank
In Philly, there seems to be room for keeping some old cars around, such as the several PCC's at the Elmwood carhouse. Hopefully, the CTA is finding more loving homes for the cars. Occasionally, Philly's old stock ends up at places like the Rock Hill Trolley Museum in Rock Hill Furnace, PA.
It looks as if New York wants to get rid of part of its museum fleet, at least the units still owned by the TA.
Illinois Railway Museum already has a number of CTA L equipment, and acquired part of their private collection of streetcars. Perhaps they could spring for those two 4000s decked out in the historic brown and orange paint scheme.
I have 3 weeks of reserve army duty starting Monday. I will be off line Friday and Saturday. If possible I will try to be back sunday morning but i will be busy. Should anyone have anything to tell me please email me. It would be nice to get some email that someone took the trouble to confirm my statements.
--Mark
This has to be a SubTalk record - a response to a message posted over three years ago.
You know, this may be incredibly silly, but some of your witty comments really crack me up. Thanks for a good laugh.
Nope
Nobody can figger out what you are repling to until you read it, then the reply makes no sense. You wouldn't reply to the three year old converasation, would you?
I mean how many posts were made in the last 2 years by "Humans: The Budapest?" :-)
Hahhahhah. Yeah, I kinda wondered about that myself. I don't generally check the date of the messages. When I saw that name I figured it was someone who posts intermittently.
We're both on the same page on this.
I agree 100% that examples of classic transit cars should be preserved in rail museums, where the public can ride them or at least see them. I go to the Illinois Railway Museum twice or three times a year and never get tired of the place. And fantrips with classic transit cars operating on the present system are also a great idea -- I wish we had them in Chicago!
I also realize that most people on this board, and most railfans, don't have the extremist attitude that I was describing. When I referred to "extremist railfans" in my heading, I didn't mean that railfans as a group are extremist. I am proud to call myself a railfan, and I'm certainly not an extremist. (^: What I was doing was distingushing the extremist "freeze the system in amber" types from the majority of railfans -- there ARE some (a small few) adherents to the extremist view on this board.
I don't want to go that far back. Personally, I don't think the CTA turned away any riders when it didn't have the color names. It's not like we have a lot of branches or anything like that. Besides, knowing the names North-South and West-Northwest isn't too hard either.
I will NEVER call the lines by their color names.
And no, here in Chicago, I don't want to go back to 1920's era cars. It would be nice if the 6000s (from the 1950s) were still in service, though. I'd much rather have an open window than air conditioning in the summer. The 6000s were the mainstay of all CTA lines up until a few years ago, and I miss them.
And, yes, tokens are better than cards. Both can coexist, though. It's nice to be able to look in your pocket and see how many rides you have. With a card, you have to go to a station and use a machine to check the value. It's just much easier.
YOU would rather have an open window than an air conditioner. Your voice is not that of the majority.
Tokens, especially with cards as the main payment system, cost the transit company millions of dollars each year. Just because you like to use tokens better, doesn't mean the transit agency needs to spend money to allow you to continue your anachronistic habits.
In Washington and San Francisco, the value is printed on the card. Even less work is required to figure out how much fare you have.
Actually it is quite common for the fare gate to missprint or overprint or fail to print correctly. This is especially the case with high value and BART Plus tickets. The real problem with BART and any of the other fare by distance systems is the slow throughput at destinations, as well as feeling ripped off by the prices.
S.F. and D.C. need to have the amounts printed on the ticket more than NYC does, since they have distanca-adjusted and rush-hour adjusted rates. In New York, eveything is in multiples of $1.50, which is a lot easier to keep track of mentally.
In New York, you can swipe your refillable card at the machine which "refills" it and it will tell you the remaining amount.
Same thing in DC with the Addfare machines, and in SF. It's just that there, a ride can cost $1.15 going one way and $2.50 going back, if you get into rush hour, so putting the amount on the ticket is more important, so you don't have to go to the Addfare machines after sticking your card in the exit gate and having it spit back at you.
Actually, in San Francisco the station and date are all that's printed on the card, since it has a flat $1.00 fare. If you mean BART, much of the time the amount remaining on the ticket is unreadable; it's either printed on top of the previous value or in nonexistant ink. But you can still put the ticket in a ticket machine and it'll show you the amount, I personally prefer that to having to dig around in my pocket for a token.
There is nothing wrong with color coding routes. There are many different levels of understanding and the color recognition is very fast when identifying a train arriving or looking for a station.
I worked with a mobility trainer from a school one time who was training kids with disabilaties. She had some kids that used a card with the route letter on it and matched it to the letter on the bus stop sign and bus destination sign. They could match the pattern when comparing them but did not relate to them as letters of the alphabet.
The neighborhood names are part of the community spirit and should be preserved. Sometimes the terminal steet is more descriptive but lacks the charachter and the responsibiliy to history.
The remaming of the Comgress expressway was a reaction to the maming of the Kennedy Expressway and a demand for equal time from west side suburban residents. The keeping of the Comgress name on the rail line was Da Mayors way of protest, aand I mean Da Mayor not Rich.
It's too bad it's not still called the Congress Expressway; that name is still associated with the amount of destruction the expressway caused.
Seeing as how the election of eisenhower was the greatest tragedy to ever befall railroading, the Rail line certainly shouldn't honor him
Because he was the one who created the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways?
Highways are a much more versatile method of travel. You needn't observe the arbitrary timetables or a railroad company, you can take any detours you want, make stops when you want, and take as much time as you want.
The interstates were an important part of the development of our country.
National System of Interstate and Defense Highways
"The interstates were an important part of the development of our country"
Thats an entire new subject. They did do a nice job of moving freight to the roads from the RR The Idea was to provide intercity transportation. I large cities they were supposed to be for through traffic and not to replace transit and the local arterial system.
In practice they collect traffic and channel it into corridors, causing congestion at on and off points and on the system itself. Like putting cars into a funnel. Sometimes traffic moves better on the old city grid system. (The Alternate Routes)
They also opened up the suburbs to commuters. After the people went out to the suburbs the jobs followed and you ended up with places like Schaumberg, where "There is no There, There"
Some people are rediscovering the city though. Chicago and NYC have both seen some very nice redevelopment in the city itself.
It's about choices. What do you want out of life? A short L ride or a 2 hour car ride.
Why are you purposely exaggerating the length of a car ride and doing the opposite to the el ride?
The typical car ride is not anywhere near 2 hours.
How long is the "short" rail ride you describe?
It takes me 75 minutes to get to school by bus and two trains. It take 30 minutes by one car.
Roads go everywhere.
The typical car ride is not anywhere near 2 hours.
During a typical rush hour, it can take about 2 hours to get from the Chicago Loop to the far suburbs by car.
Living within the city, a typical L ride from the Loop up to Howard at the far north city limits will take about 30-45 minutes. The Red Line from the Loop to my neighborhood of Lincoln Park takes only about 10 minutes.
-- David
Chicago, IL
From my house to the loop in my car is 2:10 on a good week day. On METRA 10 min in my car 1:20 on the train. From my daughters in Lincoln Park 5 min walk 10 min L ride. Thats why she lives there not here.
Here I drive to go to the grocery, drug store, dry cleaners, to eat out (Limited Choices for eating) and everything else I need. She walks less than two blocks for anyhing she needs. Who's life is beter?
Oh yea she doesnt have a car payment or insurance to pay.
geez, a hornet's nest. I DID NOT ever say I was against MU, OPTO where appropriate, AC(I well remember when CTA showed off the first 2000 class cars--spent my lunch hour checking them out), or electronic fare control per se. Nor do I categorically disdain Automated Train Control or CBTC--I just live in an area where several of these systems have failed miserably when first deployed(and in SF MUNI's case still failing regularly) I am however dismayed at some redesignations of places, and routes etc. I certainly find organized street progressions(whether alpha or numeric) easier to navigate when I am in a new locale. As to the 'legibility' of the system to tourists-try Boston(Inbound and Outbound for the Red Line which magically switch in the CBD. If I stepped on toes with my comment about literacy, mea culpa, but I also APPLAUD the San Jose Ca Transit folks who do line schedules in English, Spanish, AND Vietnamese. Serve the customer! As to preservation yes a small representative fleet of earlier stock is an honorable thing. CTA should find the bucks. Besides sometimes tourists with $$$ come to see old trains too.
Oh, no! I thought I was the "extremist railfan" filled with "hatred and fear of change" because I made a parenthetical remark about CTA's route designations in a posting about the Chicago Stadium. I will admit to being opinionated, but extremist? Shades of Goldwater.
no you're not extremist this fartanoff guy should leave people like you alone. Dead politicians my ass! if the freeway is that then the EL should be that too. End of story.
That's an excellent idea. I wish I had thought of it. There's a certain symmetry in saying "To get to the Met Museum from Grand Central, take the IV, V, or VI train to LXXXVI Street."
Great for people just Roman around on the subway, but when 63rd St. opens the proposed Sixth Ave. V train and the Lexington Ave.-Dyre express V train would puzzle too many people.
I think that to make a transit system as easy as possible to use, The Agency should choose to go 100% with either color and new Route Names or old names and not both.
For Example, the CTA uses the new color codes and names, but old names such as Congress and Douglas are printed on maps and announced on trains. Being a railfan I know weather they say Blue Line transfer here, or Congress-Douglas-Ohare Transfer here.
The CTA Needs to tear down old signs and put up new ones. The A/B Skip-Stop signs are still up after 5+ years of not being used.
There are also old signs at Clark/Lake that say trains to 63rd/Dorchester and Lake trains to Forest Park.
New signeage needs to be put up in all stations. The automated train system where the train annonces the stations is alredy being tested on many of the lines and will replace to confusing announcements, hopefully with the new color-Codes and route names.
The Bottom line is go one way or the other, not both!
BJ
PS: For more on the CTA's new automated announcements go to Chicago-L.org and read it under newsbriefs, there are 2 articles.
In my opinion colors or letters are a great aid to helping people but should never replace line names. I do think colors or letters should help. Why? think about it. The two subways are obviously self-contained. Anyone who reads the route maps can see that. But how would anyone know that a Lake train turns into a Jackson Park train, as opposed to a Ravenswood or a Midway? They wouldn't. Having the colors lets people know what the train they are on will become. But Colors can never replace line names - in my pinion they should supplement them. When I lived in Chicago and rode the El me and my friends always said both (i.e. "we're catching the brown ravenswood train" or "we're gonna get on the red howard train to Wrigley"). I think colors are needed to show what routes the train will take. And in New York, besides, it would be impossible to read maps of lower manhattan if all of the lines were printed in Black or Blue or one color - there's too many of them! The simple fact is that people need colors AND line names. To go back to the Portland light rail system, all trains use the same set of tracks in downtown and are symbolized only by their destination or line name. All you see is a black board with "Gresham," "Elmonica," "Hillsboro," "Interstate," etc. But if Portland ever builds a second MAX route through downtown (for people who have been there, via new ramps off the steel bridge connecting to the 5/6th couplet near the Bus Terminal), it will be really Really REALLY confusing because someone who is new and gets on a train at the airport will not no where there train is going in downtown. At that time Portland will probably start using colors for its rail system too, alhtough this will be complicated by the fact the the bus routes are already divided into color sectors. So every time I'm on here you have people saying WE NEED LINE NAMES BECAUSE COLORS ARE MORONIC and then the other people saying WE NEED COLORS BECAUSE LINE NAMES ARE MORONIC AND HARD TO USE. Why can't we just get along with both??????
NO! Colors are horrible. As to how do you know where the train goes after Lake St.; trains USED TO say Englewood-Lake or Jackson Park-Lake. The newer designations are even stupider.
Colors are horrible.
Is your TV black and white only? Is everything you own black and white?
I'd rather have the old names. They should leave the A-B signs up just in case they get smart and decide to reactivate it. Some signs have had tape placed over the A or B designation.
Jackson Park line was supposed to go to Dorchester but it was never re-extended. This is, in my opinion, the WORST decision the CTA has EVER MADE! 63rd/Stony Island bus corridor now has more ridership than the entire Lake-Englewood-Jackson Park. It's the reason why Jackson Park-Englewood trains are never filled even close to capacity. 63/Stony Island was the single biggest passenger generating point on the South Side Englewood-Jackson Park.
Does anyone have photographs of the Bergen Street Cutoff on the 3rd Avenue El north of 149th Street Street. Also need photos of the following:
1) 3rd Avenue El 149th Street station as in inline station looking south.
2) Interlocking for Bergen Street Cutoff by 149th Street Tower.
3) Photographs of interlocking machine and model boards for 3rd Avenue El.
Just came back from Vegas the other day. They now have 4 seperate Monorail/rail systems going. The one at the Airport has 2 lines. Frm the Main Term. To Term 3, is a few years old, no changes. All above ground. The new one from the Main Terminal to Term D. Is fast, running both above and below ground. The older line between Ballys and MGM Grand, the real Monorail. They are talking about extending the North End later this year another 3/4 mile North to the Venetian, and eventually to downtown. There is a small one that reuns between the Monte Carlo and Belligio 1/2 mile, and one from the excallibur to the Mandalay Bay. I also checked out the NY NY. They do have a fake entrnce Marked Christopher St Station Downtown 1 and 9 lines. There is talk there at the NY NY about building some new rides there, one which will be like the old whip. (Spoke to Sales people) If they do, they mostlikely will paint the cars as NY Taxis and change the Roller Coster painting to subway cars. But that is also talk. Also in the Beltz Mall South of Town in the KB Toy store, bought myself a SF Muni Corgi Trolley PCC Marked F Line for $19.99 and a Santa Monica GMC TDH 5301 Marked Pico #7. They had a few other corgi Busses there, all less then 20.00. Rode Bart and SF Muni. Muni still has 5 PCCs in the Geneva Yards, waiting to be rebuilt and painted for the F Line, when they extend it to Fishermans Wharf in the Near Future. Since it wa s Sat. Bart was running 2 Trans Bay Lines. Colma-Pittsburg ran 10 cars, and Daly City-Plesanton. Bart was running 1 car Breda Cars on all lines, and used 4Cars on the F Market. SF Muni, PE, Ill Term and LA Transit Lines
Having nothing better to do with my life or time, the last two days have witnessed me studying the world from the RAILFAN WINDOW of the Q. Looking out of the window as the Q was heading over the bridge into Manhattan, I always cast a wistful eye to see if the Ave B & East Broadway Mack buses were still parked under the FDR. Before the train reached center span, I noticed what seemed to be several Red Birds appear on the bottom of the first large apartment building to the right of the bridge bordering on the FDR. At first, I thought that someone did a gigantic mural of the Red Birds. (For what reason, I don't know ) Perhaps I have watched too many hours of Mr. Willie's #7 Video. As the train is approaching the Manhattan end, I discover the cause of what I was seeing. ( I had not taken my early morning tranquilizer ) No, just joking.
The bottom two floors of the building had two large bands of red paint on them, and from the distance it just seemed to look like IRT Red Birds. I'm almost afraid to ask if anyone else has ever had that same take.
Hey Paul, is this what you see parked under the FDR?
Did you just take that picture Sarge?
This is hard to believe. The Ave. B Macks are rolling again. All is possible for those who believe.
Can you get a copy of this over to the guys on BusTalk? I've tired of hearing about the Vikings, the Flyers, and the Novas. It's a Mack Attack!!!
Hey Paul, that picture is from this site!! Go to BusTalk and click onto "More Bus Pags"
The Macks were always my favorite buses. I liked riding the B64 Bay Ridge-Coney Island route for the Macks, even though when I was 6 I didn't know they were Macks as opposed to GMs. I just liked 'em better--they seemed trimmer and straighter.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The bus company that passed in my neighborhood (East Meadow) as a kid, the Hempstead Bus Company had Macks while the Bee Line from Hempstead to Jamaica had GMC's. (They both of course also had fishbowls) So as a kid to get to the city if I didn't have the money for the LIRR would be:Mack from E.Meadow to Hempsteadold style GMC to Jamaica R1-9 to Manhattan on the "E" or "F".(Or R16 on the el, Chris) Now of course the Hempstead Bus Company route from EM to Hemp is Long Island Bus's N48,N49 and the Bee Line to Jamaica is the N6.
MAN! That is a dead neighborhood. Or should we call it adjacent empty apartmenthood.
Take it to Bus Talk. This is Sub Talk You guys should know better Jeff and Paul
hey bob--- let's warm things up in Hawaii. Are you seriously telling me and the Sarge to take our brief discussion of Mack Buses to Bus Talk, or were you just joining in the good spirit of our discussion?
I don't know exactly what Brighton Beach Bob had in mind, but I can tell you this. It might be a good idea if you picked up another handle. There are some people who pick their website nicknames and identify with it. Yours comes very close to be a complete copycat. I don;t mind if someone uses N or Sea Beach of some derivation of it, but if someone else used #4 Sea Beach Don, I would be a little put out. We may have to get a policy on that. Anyway, I'd contact #1Brighton Express Bob and straighten out this problem.
Thanks for the warning about handles Fred.
But when someone lectures me about whether it was
appropriate to mention Mack buses on SubTalk, I get
a little rattled. Especially coming from Bob, who
along with yourself, have expounded here on politics
and other non transit issues.
If I choose to identify myself as #1 Triplex
Brighton Express Paul, I am fully entitled to do so.
I have lived and travelled on that line for over 50
years. I hope my sense of self is strong enough
that I would not be too troubled if someone posted
as #1 R-40 slant Brighton Express Arthur or #1 R -32 Brighton Express Marvin or #1 R9 Brighton Express Elvis.
Carm Down Paul. If I knew it was you I never would have mentioned it. Fred took it too serious, and I already e mailed him privately. It was me also about Busses on the Bus Web, I know you are a Mack Fan. Ok. Back to Friendship. Bob
That was the Lower East Side, Humans.
This evening I took the Evanston Express (Purple Line) from Quincy/Wells to Fullerton. The train I was riding was using the automated announcement system. The car I was on, #2910, had a functioning PA system.
At Fullerton, I jumped on a Howard (Red Line) train for the trip to Belmont (there were trains bunched up on the Rav and Evanson). The automated PA announcements were working on that train also. The car #2719 (a rehab) also had functioning PA.
My assessment is the automated PA announcements are far better than those made by the crew. The crews, some of those could care less, have not been making audible announcements. There are some operators who do a terrific job, but most, don't announce or can't be understood.
My question is, if the responsibility of making announcements is taken away from the operators, will they be able to devote more attention to running the train smoothly?
-Jim K.
My question is, if the responsibility of making announcements is taken away from the operators, will they be able to devote more attention to running the train smoothly?
Don't hold your breath. The operator of the Purple Line train I was on this morning seemed to take perverse pleasure in slamming on the brakes at every station stop and curve between Fullerton and Chicago Avenue, and then going full-throttle until the next application of the brakes.
I suspect the T/O was actually trying to compensate for the automated announcement system, lest the Chicago L be mistaken for the people-mover at O'Hare.
-- David
Chicago, IL
5.4 million was spent on the automated annoucements. Money
instead that should have went to the Motormen for doing the job of
2 people.
Money that should have been used to pay conductors to work throughout the entire system.
'5.4 million was spent on the automated annoucements. Money
instead that should have went to the Motormen for doing the job of
2 people.'
But your union didn't do anything to stop it!
The issue is over and pasted history, and talking about the way things used to be, or how could they have been, is useless. The union could have tried block this in 1996, but it didn't.
Let me say, I miss the conductors on the trains. I miss 5 - 6 minute headways in off peak. I miss the A-B skip-stop service. But CTA allowed the service to deteriorate so badly that the passengers deserted in droves. The responsbility for that lies with ALL CTA employees - management and operating alike.
If the CTA is to prosper, the union and management must work together to provide safe, fast, and convenient service at a reasonable fare for their customer's. Treat customers well and they will return, and reward an organization with patronage.
Jim K.
Chicago
la la la! In an earlier thread i said motermen when i meant to say conductors. And not having the A-B service is just stupid. So if the trains don't run 5-6 minutes in the off-peak what do they run? 15?
Nickname for a cowboy motorman is a "shutoff king".
There's one Purple Line motorman in particular whose train I've been on a couple of times, who does a fantastic job of giving announcements. Besides giving the basics ("Please don't lean against the doors") in a friendly tone, he mentions bus and Metra connections, significant buildings/colleges/attractions/etc., and makes friendly jokes (though he has the tendency to repeat them).
Whenever the train slows down significantly or stops, he'll explain the problem as best he can, whether there's a train in front or a slow zone or whatever.
My question is, do motormen of this sort get to voluntarily override the automated messages whenever they want, or only in unusual circumstances?
My question is, do motormen of this sort get to voluntarily override the automated messages whenever they want, or only in unusual circumstances?
As I understand it, CTA employees who go above and beyond the call of duty in this fashion are usually dragged into the street and beaten into submission with a large stick by CTA management.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Motormen shouldn't have to make announcements in the FIRST place! There should be a conductor to do that job.
Right on!
BS. Motormen cost like 20 bucks an hour more! And that is reflected in either YOUR taxes or YOUR fares. I'd take automation and more service any day of the week. The coolest announcements are in SF in the MUNI METRO tunnel. A little computer voice actually says how long the trains will be til they get there and where they will be going. These people who want motermen, as one person said earlier, would you like to go back to wicker seats?
....would you like to go back to wicker seats?
Actually, they WOULD. They would also go back to no air conditioning and other third world conditions on the subway and El (or L).
That's what I thought
And spur-cut bull and pinion gears, pneumatic doors, etc., etc.
Amen to that!
Here's an update:
It happened on 1/31/00 at 21:30.
A 10 car came in to get cut 2/2/6, and the 2nd duce overhung the dwarf signal at 69 switch on 57 track.
(O'hang: The M/M's cab is directly over the dwarf, blocking vision. The first axle is behind the asspciated insulated joint, making it possible to reverse a switch in front of the train.)
Car 3516, operated by a T/O with 7 years in title, was in this positon. He looked ahead and saw 28 homeball was clear. He also called the tower for permission to proceed.
There was a mis-communication of some sort in the tower and he rec'd permission to go.
He rolled through the closed switch without observing it's position, and---VOILA!!
A couple of rods were bent, the repair was complete in about 2 1/2 hours.
NOTE: Switch run-throughs happen occasionally on ths ladder.
I just rec'd an e-mail stating that there was an A-Div crew involved with this one.
On my travels thru-out the system I continually notice incandescent lights merrily burning right next to the flourescent lights that are supposed to have replaced them. Why does the TA continue to replace the incandescent bulbs. This seems to me to be a huge waste of money.
Any thoughts.
Peace,
Andee
dung is also waste,but if aged it becomes manure, this manure promotes
growth, growth is good and desirable. so once again
waste like dung stinks, but in the long long run you must follow the worst logic and come out smelling like a Rose.
It probably costs more to remove them then the electricity it requires to let them burn. They eventually burn out.
Yes, they do burn out. But, they continue to replace them.
Peace,
Andee
Long ago they used corks or rubber stoppers to replace the bulbs, there must be a circut breaker somewhere>
There are whole MEZZANINES full of incandescent lights on the Queens Boulevard IND - in fact, all the local stops from 65th Street to 67th Avenue are incandescently lit. And let's not forget in the Bronx, the
Fordham Road station - no mezzanine anywhere is darker than THAT (except the closed part of Bedford Park Blvd).
Wayne
You can say that again.
Are yuo reffering to the clusters of bulbs-usually 5 together? These are track circuit emergency lights they are supposed to go on if (locally supplied)A.C.fails.Also I`ve noticed they seem to have been manually turned on in some elevated stations probably to offset the dimming of the flourescent lights in cold weather.
There is also what I call Board of Ed logic,I once asked a janitor in my old school why he`d always put large wattage bulbs on staircase landings,he pointed to the window and said "you gotta have extra light,there`s a window there". Board of Ed logic!
No, I am refering to the sockets that are built into the station ceilings.
Peace,
Andee
Some of the old lights seem to have been retained as emerg.ltg.These in place of the 5 bulb clusters.
Also recently I`ve seen that during the electrical rehab of the 86th st station on the A,old long unused where all reconnected for a long time to provide temporary lighting when the existing flourescents were replaced.The old sockets were later removed and boxes capped.
This may account for some of your sightings (I`ve seen this too)In other cases light levels were probably measured and found to be inadquate w/out the incands. If you`ve noticed,most stations that hav been rehabbed in the last 10 or so yrs have both platform edge and mid-platform flourescents.
http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-02-01/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-55371.asp
Nowhere does the proponent say:
1) How this "one-seat ride" train will be able to run on the dissimilar LIRR and AirTrain rights-of-way and
2) Where the capacity on the LIRR tracks will come from.
I've heard about this project here at City Planning. It has a NYC go-ahead.
Evidently for just a few tens of millions more, the Airtrain can be made to split off in two directions -- west toward Manhattan on the LIRR, and east into Jamaica. (The morons should have had the Airtrain swing around Jamaica and enter the LIRR station heading west, so a single train could serve both destinations -- oh well).
The plan is to have the train run during non-rush hours only, unless and until LIRR to GCT is built, at which time there will capacity to go both ways, and perhaps to GCT as well.
The Airtrain is supposedly being built to allow a one seat ride -- except for tight curves. So any thorugh train would have to have a series of short segments.
I hope it happens. The subway is best for LaGuardia, because it is a "briefcase airport" and it is close. You need an express ride from JFK, because almost everyone there has lots of luggage and it is far away. If we could have both by 2010, it would be great.
I think we need to read between the lines. The plan promises a "one-seat" ride, and that'd exactly what they're planning to provide:
One seat, traveling back and forth between JFK and Penn Station. Very fast, but the lines for it are likely to be very long. ;-)
This was a very S-M-A-L-L article way back on page 58 by Joe Mahoney & Pete Donohue.
I found a couple of interesting points:
1. This is a Empire State Development Corp. "request of expression of interest ...". That's a long way from a plan or a project.
2. It's a Port Auth. thing to operate on MTA (LIRR) tracks. Now we all know these two groups don't like each other. Add to this that NYC wants it should mean that it will never see the light of day.
Well. I wish them good luck in any case.
Mr t__:^)
Last night while riding home on R-44 "A", one of those chinese fellas
came into my car hawking toys, batteries and Krazy Glue, one dollar, one dollar, one dollar, one.
However, he walked thru the cars on an R-44! I don't know how he did
it. Anyone want to reveal the secret?
Either, (A) He had a key, (B) The end doors were left unlocked by the crew, were the blue indicators on outside the train? or (C) He had magical powers.
Peace,
Andee
B"H
Is that what those blue lights are?!? I was wondering about that.
instead of wondering abot blue lights how about worrying about the info i sent you about where you live (die)
B"H
pardon me?
i will email you privately in more detail
i will email you privately in more detail
Yes, end door indication.
CHECK THE RUBBER MOLDING ON THE DOOR FRAME, i'LL BET IT LOOKS LIKE ITS MISSING, OR CUT AWAY.thEY USE A KNIFE OR HOOK LIKE SCREWDRIVER TO LEVER THE LATCHING DEVICE UP OR DOWN. BINGO YOUR THRU.
(B) sounds like the most possible explanation there.
If the lighted yoyo spins at a certain RPM, the end doors are automatically unlocked for anyone to pass through.
--Mark
On my F train this morning the blue lights were blinking on the front car, the CTO cars and atleast 2 others, so its not that hard to walk through at least some of the cars, this was they can sell more bateries during the 7 minutes it takes to get from Queens plaza t Roosevelt.
L. O. L., that's rich!
Peace,
Andee
That is a rarity. That car as well as the R-46 and R-68/R-68A. I have seen a few open cars of each. If one end door is open, then to get to the next car I guess they push a button next to the other end door. But I wouldn’t try this at home.
Do the 44's/46's still have a storm door release on the outside??
I know the inside one was removed. Kids used to jump between cars and then use the release to get into the cars.
R-44's do, I see battery Bennie use it every evening on the A's
Yes they still do have the Storm release on the outside between the cars.
He has a key. I've seen this guy before.
Do the R-46's still have that LOUD alarm that rings when the end doors are opened?
No
As a follow-up to the recent Gerritsen Beach thread....
I've been there, its one of the (many) hidden jewels of NYC.
ANYWAY, can anyone answer this question..... I have an old US Army Corps of Engineers shoreline map that shows a petro chemical plant (Gulf Oil?) somewhere around the vicinity of Gerritsen Beach. Of course the shoreline was much different then (1920s) than today, so its tough for me to pinpoint the location. The map showed an intraplant railway. Does anyone know anything about it? Was it standard gauge, steam or electric? Do any remnants still exist? Where was the plant (probably just a distribution facility) in relation to today's street grid?
THANKS to any respondents....
I don't have specific knowledge, but I do know that lots of heavy industrial facilities were removed to build the Belt Parkway which, contrary to popular belief, didn't just run through open land. If something like a tank farm disappeared, that's the most likely place it went.
Interesting - Thanks, Larry.
THERE ARE A FEW BIG OIL TANKS ALONG THE SHORE JUST INSIDE THE GATES OF FLOYD BENNIT FIELD(NOT THE TANKS USED TO REFUEL PLANES NEAR THE CONTROL TOWER)
I remember seeing an old map somewhere that showed a planned ship/rail terminal-port for Brooklyn in the area that we now refer to as Floyd Bennett Field. The map is dated -- I believe -- 1918 so this was before the aviation era.
The plan was to make an alternate shipping center to Manhattan's Westside and Bayonne and Elizabeth.
I for one am glad this never happanned as it would have polluted the waters of the Jamaica Bay/Gateway area beyond what it has already experienced.
The route (so far as memory serves): the rail line in question was to have branched off of the LIRR Bay Ridge near Utica Ave. and run down Paedegat Ave. to Ave. U. There the line turned south at the present location of Kings Plaza then straight down Flatbush to the Floyd Bennett area.
Doug aka BMTman
Have there been any lately that have not made the newspapers?
Any derailment of a revenue service train will garner at least some media coverage.
The last one I remember was the July 4th 1997 derailment of an A train passing through the 145th St. interlocking. IIRC, somebody in the 59th St. tower goofed.
"IIRC, somebody in the 59th St. tower goofed."
Well then you don't remember correctly. A signal maintainer on the scene goofed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think any ONE in particular was culpable for the loss of R44 #5282 (ex.#140) back in July of 1997. It just split the switch and went ballistic in the tunnel.
There was major one after that. July 15, 1997 on the #2 line north of President Street where a #2 train's 10th car picked the switch and hit the girders. #8884 was the car lost in that incident.
I don't know if there have been minor derailments since then. Does that incident the other day at Utica Avenue on the "A" count as a derailment?
wayne
An SIR train hit the ground early last week.
Details: http://www.silive.com/news/advance/0125derail25.html
BTW, that picture is of the rear car of the derailed train. It's assumed that by 'front wheels' they mean the third axle of this car.
-Hank
IRT 1 line.. Spring 1989..
1 train jumps the tracks at 168th..
forgotten?
I remember about 5 years ago, there was a GO mandating that only 1 tube of the Clark St. tunnel can be used by the #2 in both directions at night. At the switch just south of Wall St, where uptown/downtown train were to switch to their respective tracks, 3 trains on 3 consecutive nights derailed at the same spot. All were minor incidents which didn't hurt people or destroy equipment. But the GO had to be cancelled after the 3rd. derailment because that little used switch was totally unsafe to operate. I think it's been replaced since.
I dont think it was 3 consecutive nights. I think that it same day but a week after each other. This was a few years ago..........
3TM
I forgot about the President St incident. I wasn't aware that the incident on the A actually destroyed a subway car.
What happens to the remaining 3 R44's in the set if the fourth was destroyed?
every morning, while riding the "Q" train to work, when we get to the other side of the manahttan bridge, i see a opening of the tunnel where a track couldlead to. you can see where a track would go. but i dont understand why this isnt sealed up, or used to connect southbound broadway exp service to connect over the bridge? If anyone ever sees it, you can';t miss it. It got all the light s on and garbage spewed around it. what is it ?
You're seeing the tracks leading to the Canal Street station, which was the route of the bridge trains before the Chrystie Street Connection. I was looking out the front of a Q yesterday to see if there was enhanced lighting on the Manhattan side, when I observed that there is more lights on on that unused section, than there is on the tracks leading to Grand Street.
The second part of your question is interesting. Why can't they use that track for southbound Broadway trains to use the Manhattan Bridge, maybe as an alternative to a blocked Montague Street Tunnel, or perhaps to provide service in the event of a major blockage of 6th Ave service at Grand St. I don't know what the track alignments are around Canal Street, but it would seem like that at least the southbound Broadway connection would not be all that disruptive.
If you're a regular front window looker, have you noticed that band of red paint around the first floors of the first large building on the Manhattan side? It looks like a Red Bird from mid span.
dont see any tracks there. and wasnt there ever a idea to connect the system from dekalb av to york st on the "f" line?
(Connect to F)
Yes there was such a plan, but it was never funded. That's why DeKalb riders are stuck with the Manhattan Bridge.
But lets get back to the point. Given how unreliable the bridge is, and the fact that half of it has been out of action for 18 years, how hard would it be to put in crossover junctions to allow the pre-Christie options, or H tracks to 6th Avenue? Sure a flying junction to allow efficient service to both trunk lines from either bridge tracks would be costly, but how about service to one trunk line through a crossover?
...how hard would it be to put in crossover junctions to allow the pre-Christie options...Sure a flying junction to allow efficient service to both trunk lines from either bridge tracks would be costly...
A full junction at grade does not limit capacity. There is no reason to go the the extra expense of using flying junctions.
A junction at grade would surwly limit the maximum capacity if its being used during rush hours.
A diverging double track junction at grade does not limit maximum capacity, at rush hour or any other time.
One possible fly in this ointment is the subject of grade itself. The abandoned tunnel did once connect the north tracks to Broadway. However, one has to ask if the grade in the area was changed to connect under Chrystie St. If so the two tunnels could not connect, since tracks must be on the same grade to cross each other.
I believe the grade was altered - seems to me someone posted the difference in level a few months back. Perhaps they'll see this thread and confirm that information (or prove me wrong - won't be the first time if they do!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course it does. The grade crossing junction at B'way Myrtle is a perfect example. M trains going to Myrtle must cross in front of both the J express and all Manhattan bound J trains. This takes time for the various signals to set, and then clear. More time = less maximum capacity. If the M used a flyover to get from Myrtle to Central, more trains could be run.
Don't forget, when the Dekalb Ave. interlock was reconfigured in the late 50's, to remove all the crossings at grade, maximum capacity was increased.
My statement was qualified to a 2-track "Y" junction, e.g. Lenox between 135th and 145th Streets.
Of course it does. The grade crossing junction at B'way Myrtle is a perfect example. M trains going to Myrtle must cross in front of both the J express and all Manhattan bound J trains. This takes time for the various signals to set, and then clear. More time = less maximum capacity. If the M used a flyover to get from Myrtle to Central, more trains could be run.
Let me amend my previous statement because the Bway-Myrtle jct is essentially a 2 track Y junction.
The following is required to achieve maximum capacity through the jct.
Arrange the schedules so that the following happens: only J trains approach the jct from either direction at the same time and only M trains approach the jct from either direction at the same time. This eliminates all contention problems between dissimilar services approaching the jct at the same time.
Another aspect of timetable compilation is the correct timing of services which converge or diverge at a flat junction...a branch train which crosses a main line in one direction is booked over the junction at the same time as a branch train in the opposite direction...by this means it is possible to maximum track capacity... From "How the Underground Works, P.E. Garbutt, London Transport, (c)1966.
Hold it: there's nothing wrong with an at-grade junction here. There isn't even a frequent-switching problem or a matter of coordinating trains.
Larry's initial suggestion was to provide a crossover so that ONE trunk line could be fed all the time, using ONE pair of bridge tracks (whichever tracks happened to be in operation at the time). Specifically, the H tracks on the bridge could be connected to Chrystie Street, so that trains to/from Sixth Avenue could use either pair of Manhattan Bridge tracks, depending on which pair was operational. In this plan, there would still be no service to Broadway as long as one pair of bridge tracks was out of service. Also, the switches would only be thrown when construction shifts sides on the bridge, which only happens every several years.
This would allow us to keep the routings we have today (at least until all bridge tracks are in operation, at which point everything goes back to normal). No trains would ever cross in front of each other.
Reconnecting the "A/B" tracks to the Broadway Line would be possible, though it would probably involve a grade crossing (like 142nd Street Junction on the Lenox Avenue Line) in order to keep access to the Sixth Avenue Line. This would markedly reduce the capacity of the "A/B" tracks. Even if it could be done without a grade crossing, the constant switching movements would reduce capacity.
David
Reconnecting the "A/B" tracks to the Broadway Line would be possible, though it would probably involve a grade crossing (like 142nd Street Junction on the Lenox Avenue Line) in order to keep access to the Sixth Avenue Line. This would markedly reduce the capacity of the "A/B" tracks. Even if it could be done without a grade crossing, the constant switching movements would reduce capacity.
Not true - there is no reduction in capacity. There may be a reduction in NYCT's capacity to operate trains at their previous rate BUT there is no reduction in the track's capacity to handle the trains.
February 2nd, 2000
Dear Simon:
The Manhattan Bridge will switch sides around March 2001. The B and D trains from Upper Manhattan and The Bronx will terminate at 34th Street. The B, D and Q trains from Southern Brooklyn will run up Broadway to 57th Street-7th Avenue, with some trains continuing to Queensbridge if possible. If they do, the B will be relettered to T and the D will be relettered to U or W.
James Li
If I were King, I would summon Merlyn and order him to connect the tunnels from the Cortland St station thru the WTC to the Chambers St
station. Fly to Dekalb ave and connect to the York st Station. Then
head to the 57th St Station and extend the local tracks under Central Park to the layup tracks between 72nd and 81st Streets ,coming from beneath the existing tracks .Then back to Court st Station , evict the museum and connect the "H" line to the Montigue tunnel, this would give a True King the flexibility he needs to send forth his minions to do his bidding. So it is said, so it is written , so it shall not be.
James:
There will be no letter change, trust me. The TA doesn't have enough cars to implement a rerouted Manhattan Bridge service plan as of yet.
Think 1986-88. 2 D's, 2 B's and a shuttle to Grand.
Why no letter change? Why have the confusion of two B's and two D's? Last time we had two B and D services they kept using the orange B's and D's on Broadway as well as the yellow. That was very confusing. Why doesn't the MTA think about these things?
Maybe they'll realize the error of their ways and call the Grand Street shuttle the V train and it could continue through the 63rd Street tunnel to Queens Blvd.
To Simple for the TA do do something like that
I rode the PATH train to Newark in January. Whenyou reverse the direction at Newark, I was so surprised you have to pay an extra fare! Couldn't they just build a free transfer path that connects the SOuthbound platform and the northbound platform at Newark?
James Li
I would think that the demand for that would be quite low... Anyway they give free rides from Harrison to Newark, so perhaps they feel as if they're giving away enough of a bargain! I'm assuming the fare is still $1 (?).
Recall that Penn Sta Newark was really designed with the Pennsy and Lehigh Valley in mind, not the H&M, which once had its own distinct terminal in Newark.
I think the real question is why doesn't PATH go to Newark Airport? But that is perhaps somewhat rhetorical(!).
In a way we're lucky PATH survived. The story I always heard was that Mayor Lindsay basically forced the PONYA to take over the H&M in the 60s in exchange for the street closures they needed to build the World Trade Center. Some planners in the 60s thought the best thing would have been to use the H&M tracks as the 6th Ave Express subway and abandon much of the New Jersey segment. This was, of course, before the Aldene Plan boosted PATH ridership from Newark and gave it a new lease on life.....
Anyone have more or better info?
Early on in the life of the p.a. ,the George Washington Bridge was supposed to have it
As for using the path along 6 ave , they are built to IRT spec,s
too narrow, not high enough for div B rolling stock, see Fantasy Fantasy 02/01/2000 OLDAN
Early on in the life of the p.a. ,the George Washington Bridge was supposed to have it
Since we're on the subject of Airport extensions? Why not turn the N train east from the present terminal in Astoria to serve La Guardia??
That plan already exists, but City Council Speaker Peter Vallone of Astoria has said that will only occur over his dead body. If Vallone is not elected Mayor, it could happen.
its been mentioned in all the talk of the JFK connection, it would be alot less work then the JFK RR
ALl non-airport construction/engineering funds are in the 2000-2004 MTA Capital Program. Of course, the connection might be made from Astoria Blvd rather than Ditmars to avoid Mr. Vallone.
A connection from Astoria would be bad, since the same train couldn't serve Ditmars and the airport. Service would be diminished to both places. Unless they ELIMINATED service to Ditmars, and had Astoria residents walk to Astoria or take a bus.
Yeah I have maps of Queens and the only feasible extension would be to connect east from Ditmars, and have a couple of stops in between (such as the Rikers Island access road). What does this Vallone guy hate so much anyway?
(Why Vallone is against the extension)
The extension would push the elevated train past two blocks north of Ditmars, reducing the quality of life for those residents. In addition, some Astoria residents have asserted that either the entire Astoria line should be torn down and replaced with a subway, or tough luck for the aiport extension. That would cost billions.
A sensible and fair minded person would agree to the best route, but insist that his constituents be paid off and compensated. But that's not what he is doing.
The two platforms are not on top of each other. The platform Wesstbound is over track 2 of the Amtrak NJT level. There is a an employee stair but no customer free transfer. The only time turnstiles are used on Platform H is when reverse running due to track work is needed and then the Westbound Fare Control at Harrison is also utilized.
PATH is ***not*** built to IRT specs-- PATH cars (according to their Trainmaster who I met in october) are slightly shorter and have different trucks than IRT cars and have a different profile. An IRT car will not fit in PATH due to shape problems, but a PATH car can run in the IRT. (yes- and also the IND/BMT with gap fillers.) This came up when the question of new cars came up and PATH volunteered this info.
When you exit PATH from Platform H a ramp connect to tracks 3/4, a ramp connects to track 5, and two stairways connect to track two. On weekends, Platform C (the side next to track 2) is not used and doors open only on Platform B (the side next to Track 1). The employee stairway conencts only to Platform C. Stairs and escalators connect to the main station waiting room (near McDonalds) and the Gateway Skybridge.
when the h&m was run by the PRR they used paper tickets for the part of the trip from journal square and newark. (the ticket windows are still there in the concourse by the bus lanes)tokens where used in jersey city and new york. if you had a newark ticket they punched at the gates or ticket booths. i remember the fare was $.40 from/to newark, $.30 from jersey city. when the pa took over the fare DROPED to $.30.
I remember when on the H&M between Harrison and Journel Square used to come by and punch your ticket like the regular railroad. I don t remember what they did Newark Bound
Couldn't have been Lindsay...the Port Authority took over the Hudson Tubes in 1962, and Lindsay was elected in November 1965. Wagner, maybe?
David
Why the PATH Will not go to Newark Airport. because NJ Transit will not make money, that is why they are building the station for NJ Transit to connect to the Airport Monorail. Lehigh Valley never went to Newark, they used to switch locomotives between Penn Station and Newark in Jersey City
But, I've seen photos of LV steam engines at Newark Penn Station.....
The switch replacement at WTC is making the E replace the C south of 50th Street-8th Avenue and the A and B replacing the C north of 59th Street-Columbus Circle. Now there is no direct local service on the upper level of the 50th Street-8th Avenue station. Why didn't they make the A local between 59th Street-Columbus Circle to 34th Street-Penn Station , and have it switch back to it's normal route south of 34th Street-Penn Station? Why didn't they reroute the E to Church Avenue via the F line south of Jay Street and keep the C running? They can also have the opportunity to run the E express to Church Avenue.
James Li
The Cranberry St. tunnel cannot handle the capacity from the A, C and E lines during rush hours. One train had to go, and it was the lesser used C line. As for not running it to Church, the Culver express tracks from Smith/9th to north of Bergen St. are still unusable because of last year's fire in the signal room. Besides, you think it's wise to introduce a new express service, only to take it away 4 weeks later?
How were the culver express tracks damaged at Bergen street as a result of the fire last summer? Just curious
db
Electrical Fire in the Tower basicly. Only a patch job was done to get service back. There was lenghtly posts here and someone with more knowlege will jump in.
The tracks weren't damaged, but the signal and interlocking machines were destroyed in the fire. Only partial use of this interlock is possible. The switches that bring the F train up from the lower to upper level are locked into place, only allowing local service. No train has used the express tracks at Bergen to Smith/9th in nearly 9 months.
Why don't they repair it? For that matter, why have so many perfectly useful express tracks and not use them? It isn't because people wouldn't benefit from their service. The MTA won't build more subways in order to relieve congestion and they won't run express trains on places that would benefit from them even during rush hour.
From Page 34 of the MTA Capital Program 2000-2004 proposal:
"A pilot project is also planned to test solid state interlocking (SSI) controls near the Bergen Street station ($64 million). Temporary controls were installed after a fire at that site in 1999. Permanent replacement is required, and the SSI will provide the agency with operating and maintenance experience to determine whether future interlockings will be conventional electro-mechanical or solid-state."
The project is expected to go to contract in 2001, assuming, of course, that the capital program is approved.
David
If the express tracks are used, then there wouldn't be enough F trains to stop at the locals.
Speaking of split switches, updated information signs at the route punches at 47/50St 6th Ave have been posted. Just in case your T/O gets a brain cramp there are now signs staing in words as well as pictures of what the signal should look like for the correct destination of their train.
I guess they just closed the tower too soon...
So far comments have not been added, but the last one for the F train on the local track (Green Over Green) had the following written accorss "Route Guide For Dummies"...
Why do the Yellow flashing light signify on the sides of trains, they are usually on the 2nd or 3rd car from each end?
I believe flashing yellow light on Divison A is an open Emergancy Brake Cord Cover, Solid yellow on Div A or B is a motor light. Red lights are door guard lights and blue are storm door (end door) lights, if their blue the doors are unlocked.
That leaves the Head Lights and the EOT markers or tail lights (End Of Train if it was a Railroad) to round out the lights on subway car exteriors.
They signify that the TA wasted a bunch of money making up these
TACKY covers to go over the emergency cords. It comes complete
with a piercing alarm. Right general idea, terrible execution.
A very sloppy job, covering the car numbers in many cars, and
the covers fail to stay latched closed causing endless false alarms.
Actually, the yellow flashing light signifies that the emergency brake cord was ACTIVATED (pulled) in that car. Whoever resets the cord is supposed to reset the flashing light as well, but it usually gets forgotten in the rush.
Oh, I didn't know that. I thought the same microswitch that
detected the cover open and sounded the alarm activated the
light. Where is the reset for der blinkenlight?
I have noticed that as trains depart certain station a beep is heard from each end of the train and seems to be of the same pitch and location as the brake cover alarm. This happens on north bound 6`s departing 77th st,is this some sort of test transmitted from something in the tunnel?
What is the pronuciation of Grosvenor here in DC?
Grosvenor is pronouced = "GROVSNOR" = Grosvenor!
I know becuase I used to live in Montgomery County MD for a while.
Trevor Logan
According to my experience riding Red Line, it pronounces "Grovner."
Chaohwa
Moreover, Grosvenor is very hard to pronounce. No wonder the pronounciation is simplified to "Grovner".
Chaohwa
Yes, I had wondered about that when I was preparing my move from NYC to Bethesda, MD. On my was home on the first day at the new job I boarded a Red Line train the was terminating at Grosvenor. Until then I though Bowie (BOO-IE) had an unusal pronunciation. While we're on the topic Bethesda is a bit strange too, but a great place to live.
Wayne
Bethesda means "house of mercy" in Hebrew (it's amazing what you can learn on Jeopardy!).
I believe the biblical/Hebraic spelling and pronunciation of Bethesda is "Bethsaida". We have a town here on Long Island called "Bethpage" and I think it's named after a town either in Israel proper or on the West Bank called "Bethphage". Next time I'm at the retreat house I'll look for it on the big map of Israel and the Holy Land they have up on the Terrace Room wall.
Wayne
From what I recall from my visits to D.C., "GROVE-nor". It's a British thing, like Worcestershire ("wooster") or Devonshire (DEH-vuhn-sheer). (^:
There's a main street on the far north side of Chicago called Devon. But its universally pronounced "deh-VAHN" and the story goes that the Irish streetcar conductors of the late 19th and early 20th Century refused to pronounce the street name in the style of the hated British so they intentionally mispronounced it. In those pre-radio days, it was the only "official" pronunciation that most people heard and it stuck. Mind you, the street is actually named after Devon, PA (many of the east-west streets that start in Edgewater and Rogers Park were named by the developers after the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia) and not directly for the British Devon. Oh, well.
Then there's deceptively-simple Noyes, a station on the Purple Line here in Chicago. I say its "No-yez". My sister swears that it MUST be pronounced like the word "noise." I've heard the CTA conductors and operators do it both ways.
And don't even get me started on Roosevelt (separate subway and L stations at Roosevelt Road, originally 12th Street, in Chicago). I say that the double "o" is there for a reason and that the first part of the name rhymes with "lose," thus ROO-suh-velt. My sister (yet again!) ignores the double "o" and insists that it's ROH-suh-velt, starting off like the word "rose".
Speaking of Chicago streets, I'm surprised you didn't mention "Goethe", pronounced several different ways by street car conductors and bus operators on Clark Street.
Moving on to Brooklyn, I've often wondered about "Schermerhorn", as in Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A, C (E), and G lines. I hear "sker-MARE-horn", and that doesn't sound right.
[Moving on to Brooklyn, I've often wondered about "Schermerhorn", as in Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A, C (E), and G lines. I hear "sker-MARE-horn", and that doesn't sound right.]
Supposedly, the correct pronunciation is Skimmerhorn.
I keep hearing "Skerm-a-horn", never "Skimmer-horn" or "Skerm-er-horn". And they left it OFF of the wall at the IND station, electing to put up just "HOYT". Perhaps they figured they'd run out of letters would have spacing problems (like they did at Greenpoint Avenue - they truncated THAT to "GREENPT"). Funny, at Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens the entire name is spelled out - "UNION TURNPIKE". And at Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx - the "PARK BLVD" is , of course, missing. They seemed to tend to short captions at some stations and long ones at others. Chambers Street IND before the GOH was "H AND M". Now it's "CHAMBERS" (ad infinitum) at the "A" platform and NOTHING at the "E". Even the two colors are different - Concord Grape and Blue Violet.
Wayne
The "H&M" blocks on the wall could have easily been changed to "WTC" to reflect the new aboveground occupants when they did the restoration work at Chambers. Both would have taken up the same three-tile space, so there would have been no need to alter the existing pattern.
please lets not forget" No can do it "instead of" North Conduit" Anenue. Which is part of the Aquaduct Station name.
Yes, but we're discussing IND tile. Aqueduct-North Conduit station is not only elevated, but was formerly a LIRR station before 1956. The only tile there would be in the foyer/stationhouse.
Wayne
The 1936 tile which adorned the Chambers Street station wall had seen its day. The prune/plum tile band had been patched in various places with mauve, blue-violet and even blue. The white tile had lost its shine to track dust and grime, and it had fallen in places. It had gotten quite ratty. They elected to put up panel tile there because it would go up quicker as that's a through track. They erred by putting a caption on each and every panel. The correct placement of the captions would have been on every OTHER panel. And the color IS different. I observed it carefully while it was sitting on skids on the platform, awaiting installation. It is a deep shade of purple, with a slight reddish cast. I call it Concord Grape because it matches the color of the jam/jelly of the same name. It is fairly close to the original, except it has a black border.
What I can't understand is why the totally OMITTED the captions at the "E" platform. By the way, that is NOT panel tile there; it is hand set.
Wayne
All the tile on the lower Manhattan A stations was in sorry shape a few years ago. My favorite was on the uptown wall at Canal Street, where the tile with the letter `C' on it fell off near the southern end of the platform.
It still did spell something, and that's the way Collect Pond may have smelled when they built the canal to drain it, but I don't think the MTA had that in mind for a station name.
I don't know how it ought to sound in Dutch, but generally what I've heard is "SKER-mur-horn," so that's what I use.
More like "Skim-uh-horn"
Try it w/ a Brooklyn accent!
We used to pronounce it "Skimmer-horn", but that was forty years ago!
I've always liked the announcement on the IRT of "This is Astor Place", which, invariably, comes out sounding like "Disaster Place".
And she is correct because the Dutch style is the doubled 'o' is long. As to Grosvenor et al--the long term trend is to pronounce fewer and fewer of the consonants. The 'wooster' example is merely the best known. BTW Bethesda at one time hosted a trolley line as well as the Baltimore & Ohio freight branch. When I first came back post Metro it was a shock. I used to bicycle to a drug store to have train pix developed where part of the Red Line station is now.
Does that mean "get me started?" If you are from the South Side, it is RUE-se-velt. I am a graduate of ROSE-e-velt University. I think that the Roosevelt family would be the final arbiter of that.
And what about "Goethe"?
[ And what about "Goethe"? ]
Any Chicago cab driver will tell you the street on the near north side is pronounced go-EE-thee. And, on the west side, Mozart St. is pronounced with an American 'z', not the German 'z' (which is more of a TZ sound).
Outside of Chicago in Illinois, we also have the towns of Cairo (pronounced like Karo Syrup) and Marsailles (pronounced mar-SAILS).
-- Ed Sachs
Then there's Buena Vista, Colorado. People out here don't pronounce it the Spanish way, which would be Bwayna Vista, but instead Anglicize it: Bewna (as in pew) Vista.
P. S. I'm familiar with Mozart St. in Chicago. Too bad there isn't one named for Beethoven, my favorite composer.:)
>>>>Then there's deceptively-simple Noyes, a station on the Purple Line here in Chicago. I say its "No-yez".
My sister swears that it MUST be pronounced like the word "noise." I've heard the CTA conductors
and operators do it both ways. <<<
Noyes...
would there be a cognate French name, Nonoui or German, Neinja, or Russian, Nyetda?
ww.forgotten-ny.com
I have heard the train attendants announce it as "Grow-vuh-ner", with a very light touch on the middle syllable.
Wayne
"This is Grosvenor, doors open on the left side, change for the Silver Spring train. Red Line to Shady Grove, stand clear..'Doors closing'
Change for the Silver Spring train? Don't you mean Shady Grove? On the Grosvenor bound trains, they say to go to White Flint, Twinbrook, Rockville, or Shady Grove, take the train to Shady Grove directly behind this one (often I can get to the 37 bus stop before the train "directly" behind arrives and I ride in the lead car, the exit is at the end of a northbound train, and the 37 stop is parallel to the escalator in the station).
That was just an aside. I guess you would have to change for a Shady Grove train if you were terminating at Grosvenor.
wayne
1.How many AA batteries are between the tracks onthe entire system ?
2.Who tossed the firt one?
3.Has one ever been removed?
4.What health hazzard do they poseto ta workers, the public, the wild
life.
02/02/2000
I think all those "AA" batteries are discarded by passengers whose "Walkmans" needed new ones. You know the ones bought by those Asian guys entering the cars going "one dollar, one dollar".
Bill Newkirk
Gee, and I always thought that they fell from the undercarriage of some subway cars, which would explain the slow running from the loss of power :-)
I know it does not look like the tracks are ever cleaned, but I assure you- NYCT does have track workers whose job it is to clean the tracks. They use brooms and shovels. They usually work during the overnight hours.
Health Hazzard-NO! the latest safety bulletins do not list alkaline or carbon-zinc batteries (like the walkman uses) as an item requiring special disposal. NiCads (rechargeable) and Lead Acid(such as car bnatteries and those on trains) are among those listed as requiring special disposal methods. If you desire more info I'll try to find a copy of the bulletib or maybe Steve can elaborate.
Lithium batteries do represent a special hazard, if there is more than 1 oz of electrolyte. This is not the case for AA batteries.
Alkaline batteries do represent a hazard, in large enough quantities. The Duracell Corporation was found polluting the Saw Mill River - they moved the factory.
I was quoting from an official MTA NYCT Bulletin
1.How many AA batteries are between the tracks onthe entire system ?
As of 2/3/00 the count was 2,147,339
2.Who tossed the firt one?
The first AA battery was tossed by a 14 year old from Midwwod high School. Because of his age, I am not at liberty to reveal his name
3.Has one ever been removed?
Just last week, 182 batteries were recovered and are now on displayat the TA Headquarters at 370 Jay St. in the lobbby.
4.What health hazzard do they poseto ta workers, the public, the wild
life. If enough batteries align in the right configuration, there is a potential for spontaneous shock. However, the real hazard is from slips and falls.
I hope this helps!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally, you can't see a subway, and you can't see anything from the subway. My question to subtalkers is, which is your favorite view from or of the subway.
My favorite view from the subway is the view back to Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan from just past Smith/9th on the F.
My favorite view of the subway is the F - Culver as viewed from the Pergament parking lot on Bay Parkway. It seems to be just rolling across the landscape over the cemetery.
I can't say about New York, because all my subway travels there were underground in Manhatan. Favorite views from a subway would be in Boston, the Red line over the Charles River. In Atlanta, East line going westbound between King Memorial and Georgia State.
Since we are now allowed, it seems, to deviate from talking about strictly New York subway views, I would like to add that the view from The San Francisco MUNI's J-line is spectacular. Portland's MAX views coming over the steel bridge into downtown aren't bad either :)
We always have been. It says at the top of the board.
You can talk about any system you like! I'm from Phila. and I post about their system many times.
Chuck Greene
either any train over the Willy B with the sun setting behind the city, or the A train accross the Jamica bay
many spots on the Brighton line(from the express of course).
Coming up the hill from Newkirk...the curve entering Brighton Beach...and the view of Coney Island just leaving W. 8th Street...
02/03/2000
My favorite view of a subway (NYC) is any vantage point on the BMT Brighton Line between Neck Road and Avenue H looking north. On a clear day or night you can see the Empire State Building, a sight that always gave me goosebumps !
Bill Newkirk
I'll second that. The Empire State Building looks so inviting from the Brighton line, just beckoning everyone to "come on over". Come to think of it, it looks inviting from any angle, even from Jersey.
The sight of the head lights of the "A" train pulling into Howard Beach station as seen from the freezing station at AquaDuct station at 5:35 in friggin freezing morning!
More than just the view of Coney Island, the smell of the ocean, seafood, and Nathan's fries!
sorry folks the RAILFAN WINDOW wins hands down everytime !! ( get mad )
My favorite view of a train, from the Top of the Wonderwheel in Coney Island looking down on the Stillwell Station and the CI Yards and Manhatten backround. The F at Smith 9th, Queensboro Plaza West End Upper platform, The entire Brighton Line from Stillwell to Ave H, Boston Red Line over the Charles. A few views over the river toward DC on the WAMTA, The J Church Line in SF too many, since I travel alot
Red Line at Grosvenor. I like the flyover over the Beltway and MD 355 and then the change to open cut before you enter Grosvenor. I got some pictures back yesterday of trains there on a snowy day in DC area. In NY, I like the 7th Avenue Express due to the speed. A hard challenge is to stay standing while on the 2 looking through the soon to be dead railfan window anywhere between Chambers and 96th and especially between 42nd and 72nd.
why is that rail-fan window soon t obe dead???
02/03/2000
O.P.T.O.! (One person train operation)
The new R-142/A's will have full width cabs canceling out the "railfan" window. The R-62/A'S are going through a 5 car unitization program (trainsets grouped in 5 cars) and end cars will be converted to full width cabs thus canceling out the "railfan" window.
This speaks for the mainline IRT, as long as the R-32,33S,36WF,38,40 & 42's are still running, those "railfan" windows will still be alive.
Bill Newkirk
The R-62s and R-62As do have a small square window on each cab door, so a quasi-view can be had - as long as the window isn't covered over.
The R-44s have a small cubbyhole window on their cab doors. The R-46s and R-68s have a good-sized window on their cab doors; however, the glass has an embedded grid which prevents lateral vision. The R-68s were delivered with this grid; the R-46s have had this added in recent years. Originally, the R-46s had most of the cab door window blacked out, with a narrow band to peek through.
Boston has full width cabs with a railfan window to the left of the door. This is a full size window on the Blue Line (OPTO) and newer Red Line cars. Orange Line and older Red Line cars have part of the window blocked with an add-on ATO control box, but there is a standee view over the box. In addition, motormen will sometimes leave the curtain behind them partly open.
For some reason, since the R-10, NYCT has never had windows on the left side of the train.
Gerry
Gerry, don't forget that all of our Green Line Trolleys, including the Mattapan-Ashmont PCCs, Boeing LRVs, Kinki Type-7s, and (stealth) Breda Type-8s have railfan windows. You can stand next to the operator and watch him/her operate too. This is unlike other cities (such as LA's Blue/Green Lines) where there is a full-width cab.
The 33S WILL NOT CONTINUE RUNNING!!!
My favorite view is on the #7 Flushing Express between Shea Stadium and 103rd St. The express track is at a higher level than the local track and the view north towards the airport is spectacular. (If you get a car without scratchitti)
For me I've always enjoyed the view of Coney Island yards from the B, N and F trains.
Wayne
Philadelphia, from a PCC or a Peter Witt on the trolley tracks in the subway inbound from 40th street portal or outbound to it, with a Market-Frankford train barreling past.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For me, On a clear night nothing beats the 7 train Queens bound as it curves out of Hunters Point Avenue toward CourtHouse Square. The curve in the tracks gives you a great panorama of the Manhattan skyline as you look out the left side of the train.
Chuck
Fave view OF a subway... the secret spot in 42nd St
just beyond the S tracks where the trains rub
right on your nose..
Fave view FROM a subway.. IRT trains rushing by the
mysterious, luminated, historical 91 st station.
Who is redheadsrule?
I've got a few--Upper NY Bay from Smith/9th;The A accross Jamaica Bay;The skyline from either el in Queens; and how City Hall in the loop? (Please, don't start another thread about it.)
I'll be parochial here and choose a Boston view for my favorite. The view of Beacon Hill and the State House from the Red Line crossing the Longfellow Bridge is unparalleled. Second place goes to the view of the Queensborough Bridge and Midtown Manhattan from the 7 line near Queensborough Plaza. Third is back in Boston, also on the Red Line looking north over the marshes and harbor to the city from the bridge over the Neponset River.
As far as views of a subway are concerned the center reservation on the Longfellow Bridge provides some great photo ops, both from the bridge itself and from the Boston side of the river. I don't spend that much time on the streets where you can observe trains in New York, but a favorite view is looking down on the Astoria Line from the approach to the Hell Gate Bridge (from a train of course).
FROM:
-The view of Coney Island, and on a clear day, Sandy Hook and the Highlands from the 'D'.
-Where the '1' crosses the Broadway bridge. One side you see the Henry Hudson Bridge, the river and the cliffs of Inwood Park. On the other side, it's the Kingsbridge depot, the 207th yards, the Harlem River and the bluffs that the Deegan Expressway was built into. On either side, you can see Metro-North electrics or diesels.
-Traffic rushing off the Triboro Bridge right under you from the island platforms of Astoria Boulevard on the 'N'.
-On a VERY clear day, the Long Island Sound, Whitestone and Throggs Neck Bridges, City Island and the Great Neck peninsula from where the '6' turns between Castle Hill and Zerega.
-All of Philadelphia from PATCO crossing the Ben Franklin Bridge.
OF:
-A 'D' and 'F' passing each other on the upper and lower levels respectively going into or out of Coney terminal.
-Ditmars terminal as viewed from Amtrak above, especially with 'N' trains on both tracks.
-An 'A' train speeding over Jamaica Bay as seen from the Gateway Wildlife Refuge. I swear that when I was on top of the World Trade Center, I could see the sun glinting off one as it moved along.
-The Red Line coming over the Charles River bridge into MGH, passing over a maze of highway ramps. This was a common stock transition scene in the old CHEERS show.
The Howard St yards from the crossover at Howard, Chicago
Funny you should mention the Astoria line and the BQE. One of the great views of the subway is from the highway coming from the Triboro. Usually, when someone is standing far up in the air, there are behind a wall to prevent them from falling over. At the Astoria Blvd site, you see people from head to toe just standing up in the air waiting for a train. Looks cool.
You're right but for one thing: When you come off the Triboro in Queens, you automatically segue onto the Grand Central. The BQE doesn't start until about a half mile east of there. It's officially Exit 3 or 4 off the eastbound GCP.
It's also amusing when you drive under the Hicksville LIRR station, or any station along the Babylon branch, which all have island platforms. It seems that when the LIRR raised stations in its' grace crossing eliminations, it chose to use island platforms as much as possible. This might have been to save money, but it sure makes it cold for anyone waiting for a train.
When I first saw this question, I thought we were limited to underground views, but I noticed that nearly all of the answers are above ground.
So I'll chime in:
Favorite views in the subway UNDERGROUND: 168th St (1/9), 149th St / Grand Concourse (2/5 level, rear of the uptown platform), 42nd St / 8th Ave, front of downtown platform
Favorite views of the subway UNDERGROUND: Probably the only one, of the R line, over the Bay Ridge Cut in Brooklyn :)
Favorite views in the subway ABOVE ground: At West 8th St, upper level, rear of Coney Island-bound D platform, Brighton Line anywhere between Ave H & Brighton Beach, Eastern Pkwy / Broadway Junction, Flushing Line between 111th St and Main St, White Plains Road line between East 180th St and Simpson St.
Favorite views of the subway above ground: At the Spuyten Duvyil Metro-North platform facing the Broadway Bridge. It's the only "Chicago-type" picture of the NY subway you can get. Also D/F between Stillwell & West 8th St, Culver at Ave Z. Others, too, which I can't seem to think of right now ....
--Mark
I have to be somewhat parochial, and wax nostalgic here...
My favorite (was) Fresh Pond Road on the "M" line. Why?
Before the relatively recent installations of a signal relay room at the north platform end, and concertina wire around the yard, it was possible in one view to simultaneously see:
1. A freight train on the NY Connecting RR in the distance
2. Buses parked below and between the parallel single-track elevated structures ramping to the surface
3. Subway/el trains in the adjacent yard
4. In-service "M" trains on the ramp
Plus (when I was a kid, at least) the view included plenty of green buses, "Q" types, ABs and R9s, and assorted Penn Central power on the railroad. The old Staten Island car yard office, trolley conductor shack, and LIRR were also nearby. And, there was plenty of unused trolley rail beneath the structure, as well as the facade of Fresh Pond Depot, still standing today. A neat place for a young railfan to grow up.
This view made the cover of a 1965 (March?)issue of Railroad Model Craftsman magazine, which I still have. It featured a 2-part story on modeling rapid transit railways.
think you could scan that picture and post it here???
Think you could scan that (magazine) picture and post it here???
Hmmm....I'll have to look for it. It might still be at my mother's house, in which case it will take me a little while to retrieve. Perhaps I'll scan the whole article when I come across it....No new info, but nice light reading.
Then there's the copyright issue...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Above ground- I vote for the F bound for Manhattan entering Smith and 9th- it is a postcard view of the Manhattan skyline.
I'll answer this two ways:
1) Outside - Watching the Brighton Line from the Choych (a.k.a. Church) Ave. overpass. This is where my grandfather would take me so we could wait for a Brightlinter (R-32) to come along... as they did in about 1 in 10 trains when first delivered.
2) Inside the subway - Homeball Alley. Trackwork, signals, hee-yah!
has to be the railfan window with my VIDIEO CAMERA and TRIPOD and WIDE ANGLE LENS looking
out the front !!! great results just ask all of those who have seen my vidieos # 7 # 2-5 A E Q !!!
I am tired of when the Manhattan Bridge North sidetracks are closed the D and B is cut to 34 Street and so I have a proposed plan. My plan will make every line run from Terminal A all the way to its proper terminal! The B and D line southbound tracks meet the E Line tracks at 53 Street. The Northbound tracks veer off at 53 Street and 8th. So my plan has special tracks veer off at 56 Street headed to 7th Avenue. Between 57 Street and 49th Street on the N and R lines tracks will spread out so that two tracks can come in. So the two tracks will be one northbound track headed for CPW, and the southbound track headed to 34th Street. Those two tracks will go switch onto the Broadway Express Tracks. With this the D and B can run with no delay and get to Coney Island. Even though people might have to walk to 6th Avenue once they get off at they get to there places. The Station plan will go as so…
B and D lines Southbound after 59 street when the Northbound tracks close and southbound tracks close.
59 Street- Columbus Circle (Central Park West)
42nd Street (Broadway Line)
34th Street (Broadway Line)
14th Street (Broadway Line)
Canal Street (Broadway Line)
and everything will run normal from there.
If the Manhattan bridge fully closes then it will go as follows the B line will go to 2nd Avenue on the F. The D will use the connection and the Q will run on the Broadway line. This is how it will look for the D line.
59 Street- Columbus Circle (Central Park West)
42nd Street (Broadway Line)
34th Street (Broadway Line)
14th Street (Broadway Line)
Canal Street (Broadway Line)
Whitehall Street (Broadway Line)
Then the line goes through the Montague St. Tunnel the makes the following stops.
Court Street (M, N, R, and Q lines)
Lawrence Street (M, N, R, Q lines)
DeKalb Street
Then the line runs normal.
All this applies for Northbound Service as well.
When this line is not being used or no need for it a new line could be made. Which has the following stops…
The T Line (CPW/ 7th Avenue/ 4th Avenue)
207 Street (Wash. Hts.)
Dyckman Street (Wash. Hts)
190 Street (Wash. Hts)
181 Street (Wash. Hts)
175 Street (Wash. Hts)
168 Street (Wash. Hts)
163 Street (Wash. Hts)
155 Street (Wash. Hts)
145 Street (Wash. Hts)
125 Street (CPW)
59 Street- Columbus Circle (Central Park West)
42nd Street (Broadway Line)
34th Street (Broadway Line)
14th Street (Broadway Line)
Canal Street (Broadway Line)
City Hall (Broadway Line)
Courtlandt Street (Broadway Line)
Rector Street (Broadway Line)
Whitehall Street (Broadway Line)
Court Street (M, N, R, lines)
Lawrence Street (M, N, R, lines)
DeKalb Street (4th Avenue Line)
Pacific Street (4th Avenue Line)
36th Street (4th Avenue Line)
59th Street (4th Avenue Line)
Bay Ridge Avenue (4th Avenue Line)
77th Street (4th Avenue Line)
86 Street (4th Avenue Line)
95th Street- Fort Hamilton
This will only happen if both South and North part of the bridges are open to subway service.
This line will work!
Well this connection will make the difference!
Christopher Rivera
LA LA LA!
Why spend millions to modify these lines for a handful of people who want to get from the Bronx and Upper Manhattan to Brooklyn and vice-versa? Let em get off their butts and transfer at 34th.
If you're going to lay in new track why not run a line from CPW east under what would be 63 St, connecting to the "new" - and mostly unused - B'way line tracks? That would be a lot easier than reconfiguring 7 ave between 49 and 57 Sts, and achieve the same thing. Of course, Park fans would raise unmitigated hell...
I asked a Long Island Railroad engineer who's job is better? A Train operator? or a Locomotive engineer? The engineer says that They get paid more than subway people, and they are allowed to wear anything while operating the Train. Also I heard they can go anywhere they want. Also, i think the M-3's and they diesels like the F-7 are madd ill and fast
That's really not a fair conparision as one is a commuter railroad (LIRR) and the other rapid transit (NYCT Subways).
While they have some similarities in rolling stock (the subway car-like M-1s built for high-level platform access), by-and-large the two MTA systems' operations are dissimilar. Even signalling on the LIRR is different than that of the New York City Subway System.
Both have pros and cons. The one thing that gives the NYCT the edge IMHO as far as superiority is the varied amount of Subway rolling stock. The NYCT has had dozens of car types over the years, while the LIRR for a long time only had the M-1s and the same old commuter coaches (being pulled by hand-me-down diesel equipment).
Doug aka BMTman
[I asked a Long Island Railroad engineer who's job is better? A Train
operator? or a Locomotive engineer? The engineer says that They get paid
more than subway people, and they are allowed to wear anything while
operating the Train.]
I think you answered your own question there. With pay being higher, and the work conditions a bit less frantic, I'd say that LIRR is the better of the two organizations to work for. (Of course my opinion here means jack, so I hope some guys with LIRR or NYCT T/O experience might be able to add to this post).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, this is one of those "walk in his mocassins" type things.
I don't do either job, so I can't give a definitive answer. For example, my impression is that subway T/Os suffer more gratuitous harassment from supervision.
OTOH, the LIRR crew is virtually owned by managment. It takes a good 15-20 years on the job to get a terminal and run even remotely like one you want. If you are sick you still have to show at your terminal and be sent home. If you don't you better be immobile in a hospital bed (which they will visit) or you have a "failure of service". Get more than a handful of these and you're fired.
Once on the job, you can be assigned anywhere for the good of the RR. This can mean extra pay, but there're no excuses. I know a husband-wife conductor team that, with each having about 20 years service on the road, managed to wangle two jobs from their desired terminal arranged so that one went to work after the other got home (to be there for the kids). One day, supervision tells the guy that his job has an extra round trip (not in the ETT). Luckily he got his parents to rush over and be home for the kids. Even with that good an excuse, he would have been eating the carpet in the supervisors office.
LIRR personnel also have to take tough FRA tests every three years to stay on the road. You have to literally know every switch on your operating division. On the LIRR this means the whole railroad.
And hectic? Try a collector's job, where you have to jump on and off trains east and west at various stations to chop tickets. If you miss part of your job because one of the connections was late, you're still going to be called in.
This all for a pay differential of about 10%-15% over subway personnel.
Now, I'm sure TA personnel have their own horror stories. So I'll say again, don't say someone's job is better or worse if you haven't done it. It's human nature to say MY job is harder than YOUR job.
Interesting to read all those comments about a sister railroad (even though feds dont consider transit railroad)
I was interested to read that LIRR also harrasses sick employees. Until roughly 1989 transit never bothered sick employees even though the rules did say you could be visited. Now it is routine. I remember an interesting story on sick leave harrasment that happened fall 1990. A rto employee filed a grievence that robert ray would of booked offf sick had he not been afraid of being harrassed at home for booking off, thereby preventing unioun square derailment. Amazingly the employee was scheduled to go to the hearing but was told his train had been repeatedly running the station and opening the doors out of the station during morning rush hour. amazingly this had happened many times yet no one fell out. (according to investigation and discipline) By the time he had finished his drug testing he was too late to appear at the haering. then transit decided to give him 3 days suspension. He got them to drop the charges to reinstruction by screaming next time i will kill the passengers and running out of the hearing room into the mailroom. It was funny to see the hearing officer begging him to accept the reinstruction.
You know, I gave you a teaspoon of credibility in my mind on your other post of the dragging incident because I was a T/O under then president David Gunn and remember the R32 story as it happened around the same time that an F train had its doors opened at Jay Street on the wrong side (the Post blamed that on a circuit breaker fault) but I must ask WHO THE HELL was the rep who would file such a ridiculous grievance for anyone who would use booking off sick as an excuse for preventing an accident heresay. Back in 1989, the sick control list and subsequent harrassment was written into the contract but the rules have always stated that unfit employees should be removed from service and alcohol consumption and possession is prohibited. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind that they should not work due to an impairment, they would book sick knowing they are to remain at home unless they call out of the house. There was no need for a grievance if there is nothing to hide. There is no grievance in a case like that of which you described. Tell me more or tell me nothing.
Speaking of the old cars I wonder if the original IRT and BMT subway equiptment would have lasted as long as it did if the Second World War had not interviened. The BOT took over the private systems in 1939 and was just getting its act together when the Axis Powers came over looking for a fight. Even after the war was over it took a few years to get production geared up for civilian use and the first new cars purchased for the subway were to expand service,not replace it.
Some of the High-V's topped 50 years and a few Standards came very close to that. Lo-V's,Steinways, Standards and Q's lasted right up to and a little after Chrystie Street,1969 to be exact. It gave a whole new generation of railfans a chance to see that great equiptment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I don't think WWII made a difference one way or the other. In the industry at large, though, WWII hastened the demise of street railway systems, if anything.
However, Unification made a difference in the elevated fleet (at least the BMT fleet). The City's intent to eliminate the elevated lines short-circuited the BMT's attempt to replace the elevated fleet. As a result (despite the abandonment of a number of els in 1940) I would say that the elevated fleet (particularly the gate cars) probably lasted a decade or so longer than they otherwise might have.
As for the Manhattan el fleet, I think it would have lasted longer than it did, though I would have expected additional upgrading to MUDC.
In the case of subway cars, I don't think either WWII or Unification made a big difference in service life. The City didn't have the money to replace the IRT fleet (and neither did the IRT) and the BMT fleet was fairly new. So I would say the cars, in general, lasted out more or less their normal design lives.
Paul, if you are talking about street railway systems in general, World War II had the effect of postponing systems' demise. Materials in short supply, like rubber, were devoted to the war effort. In fact, some lines bussed just before the war, were re-converted to rail for the duration. I don't believe the Feds would have permitted a rail to bus conversion during the war.
Well, George, I mean that WWII hastened the rail systems' demise in the sense that the war put a heavy burden on systems at the same time that the companies had no money for maintenance and upgrade (not to mention the war's demand on resources).
The result was that at the end of the war the double whammy of Depression and WWII saw many street rwy systems in a sorry state of repair, making them easier pickings for the postwar forces of autos, GMs, road advocates, etc.
The Second World War did place a tremdous strain on all types of American railway systems, to theie credit they met the challenge. However there was one thing that our transit systems did not have to contend with and that was enemy action. There were several instances of London Transport lines being put out of service by the Luftwaffe.
Maybe our British friend could fill in some details.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I would also imagine service was affected when half of the city had to use the system as a bomb shelter. Thankfully, London had those deep-bored tunnels. The NY cut & cover tunnels would have been useless if NYC was ever bombed.
Did you know that a couple lines of the Paris Metro were prime tarkets for the RAF and USAAF. The Germans were using it for munitions factories.
The war postponed the demise of the 3rd. Ave. el by more than 15 years. It was supposed to be shut down in 1941, but the war meant mass-transit was badly needed.
I'd say no. Transit cars were not a top priority, production wise, during the war.
But, if the war hadn't happened, the IND second system might be running today.
I can't see any way the so-called second system would be running today.
The city got itself too much in debt with the first system, Unification dulled its competitive spirit, and social service spending put the coffin nail into whatever was left.
Rail car acquisition during the war was out of the question. When the South Shore line was faced with record ridership during WWII, they simply enlarged a portion of their existing fleet. Selected cars were cut in half, and additional material was spliced in.
It depends on the equipment. Chances are the Gibbs Hi-Vs wouldn't have remained in service for 50+ years had WWII not broken out.
Most of the pre-war cars saw service into the 1960's (70's for the R1-9's). I guess these cars would have lasted as long as they did war or no war. The city replaced the entire IRT fleet of pre-war cars from 1948-64 (except for a few Low V's on the 3rd Ave. shuttle). Perhaps this is why the BMT Standards lasted so long.
Yes, that's correct. I don't believe any of the Hi-Vs made it to 1960, but the rest of the prewar subway fleet did.
The BMT standards were well-designed, well-built, indestructible cars, so it comes as no surprise they lasted as long as they did. 394 of them were rebuilt in 1959-60, and they were the last ones to be retired. The unrebuilt ones were phased out with the arrival of the R-27s and R-30s.
One of the questions on tonight's "Hollywood Squares" was the following: "New York has 722 miles of...what?" I think it was Karen "Whoopi Goldberg" Johnson who answered "train tracks". The contestant agreed. Of course, the answer wasn't exactly correct but the judges gave it to her.
One can only guess what the late Paul Lynde would have said. At times, they had to edit out the laughter that would follow one of his responses.
Yeah, but Karen/Whoopi and Bruce Villanch together carry Paul's raunch torch. BTW, Whoopi's "gag" answer was "traffic jams"...which in reailty isn't so far-fetched!
Why are some of the El structures are made of stone or concrete?I remember as a teen riding on the old third avenue el, around Bedford Park the El portion turned into a concrete viaduct, a simular structure is on the flushing line.Any reason for this?
At that time the area was rural and there was a need to lure people out of the crowded city to the SUBurbs, so some fancy bells and whistles were used to emulate commuter RR.
At least two places in Boston used this type of construction. The Lechmere Viaduct used a concrete arched structure crossing the Charles River adjacent to the dam. This is still in service. The Fosest Hills extension used a concrete structure with singke columns from the station to just north of the Arborway. This was done to preserve the appearance of the parkway. The steel highway bridge above cancelled out any appeal the el structure, and the adjacent granite arch bridges of the New Haven RR may have had, and both earlier structures are now history.
Gerry
I know that elevated subways are finished in cement at what are considered key intersections. For example, Pelham Parkway on the White Plains Road line, or Bay Parkway on the West End.
Whenever the Els passed over a Parkway, the concrete type of viaduct was used to make it look prettier.
Besides the two you've mentioned:
- Ft Hamilton Pkwy (West End Line)
- Pelham Parkway (White Plains Road Line)
- Ocean Parkway (Brighton Line)
While the Flushing Line doesn't go over any parkways, it does run in the median of Queens Blvd, which may have been called Queensborough Pkwy a long time back.
--Mark
Oh yes ... I left out Bay Parkway on the West End Line, too.
An interesting exception to this is Bay Parkway on the Culver Line. It doesn't have a concrete structure, probably because when the line was built, Bay Pkwy may not have been called that (or the station itself may have a different name like 22nd Ave).
--Mark
>>>(or the station itself
may have a different name like 22nd Ave). <<<
22nd Avenue was on the signage; a couple still remain...
Mosholu Parkway on the 4 Line also stone station
The entire elevated Rockaway line is on a concrete structure. I don't know if this structure was in place when the LIRR ran there, or if it was constructed especially for the subway in the 1950s when the MTA bought the rights.
Isn't the Smith-9th viaduct concrete also?
smith/9th is concrete wrapped steel. The station itself has concrete walls. 4th ave is also concrete walls
Does anyone know why the Smith/9th St viaduct is steel encased with concrete? Better protection from the elements?
--Mark
I think the idea was to make it distinct from the el structures of the BMT and IRT. Part of the Hylan Legacy...
The viaduct on the pennisula has always been concrete. SIR has concrete viaduct between Tompkinsville and Clifton (not the entire way between stations, however). The old North Shore line also is on a viaduct through Port Richmond. SIR used viaduct where due to area building density, it was impossible to put the line in an open cut or embankment.
-Hank
To amend what Hank (and other have posted): the structure on the Rockaways line has always been concrete -- but only as long as the Transit Authority has owned/operated it.
When it was Long Island Rail Road property, it was a wooden trestle. This creosote-soaked wood trestle suffered numerous fires and it is one in the early 1950's that made the LIRR decide to suspend service to the Rockaways (via broad Channel). Shortly thereafter (1953, I believe) the line was sold to the Transit Authority, and we all know what happened since then.
Sorry, but I've got to correct this posting. The bay trestle was always wood in the LIRR days, but the peninsula concrete el was built by the LIRR. Check out the book Change at Ozone Park for a good history of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. The concrete el structure on the peninsula was constructed in 1940 when the entire line was still an all-LIRR operation. It was built to raise the tracks from the street level and eliminate many grade crossings. The stations were designed for easy conversion to a rapid transit type (meaning fares paid in stations) operations. The Jamaica Bay trestle remained wood throughout the LIRR operation (until 1950) - when NY City rebuilt the trestle in 1955-56 for the IND subway, it was entirely replaced with a concrete trestle, two new drawbridges, and man-made islands in the bay to cover the track ties with sand and prevent mussels from attacking trestle pilings and track ties.
Right about all that.
As an aside, it is interesting to note that the Rockaway Line is the only part of the New York Subway System that runs through protected wetlands. Those man-made islands of "The Raunt" are under the jurisdication of Gateway National Park (Dept. of the Interior).
Doug aka BMTman
No, the el in the Rockaways to both Far Rock & Rockaway Park was built by the LIRR for its grade crossing elimination project in the 30's & 40's. The TA just rebuilt the bridges to the Rockaways. Its one of the bridges that burnt down.
There's a section on the Rockaway Line, with a brief history of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, at my History of the Independent Subway.
A snippet ...
Probably one of the longest subway mileage expansions since the inception of the IND Division, expansion to the Rockaways, occurred because the TA was given a deal that it basically couldn't pass up. Yet rapid transit service had already run on this line going as far back as July 1898 during the early days of LIRR ownership, when the Rockaway Line was known as the New York and Rockaway Beach, or more simply, the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch....
After World War I, plans were put forth to convert the line to rapid transit as well as eliminate grade crossings on the Rockaway Beach branch and other LIRR lines. The concrete viaduct in the Rockaways was built to rapid transit specifications and completed in 1942. (Notice how the stations are roughly every 10 blocks apart, fairly common for a rapid transit type of service). These plans never reached fruition through the 1930s and 1940s.
In the late 40s, the wooden trestles over Jamaica Bay seemed more prone to fires that "usual"; finally, on May 8th, 1950, a major fire destroyed significant portions of the structure. The LIRR was not in solid financial shape at that time, and decided not to rebuild the line. The LIRR had been trying to sell the Rockaway Beach branch within the City limits to the New York City Transit System (and later the Authority) for many years.
On September 5th, 1952, the TA purchased the Rockaway Beach branch and the line in the Rockaways within the City limits from the LIRR for $8.5 million, considered a "steal" at the time. On June 12th, 1952, replacement of the wooden trestles over Jamaica Bay began. The TA gave a target date of July 1st, 1956, for the opening day. The IND Fulton Street Line would connect to the Fulton St. El east of City Line, and at Rockaway Blvd, a 2-track connection to the new IND Rockaway Line would be made. The original plan for the connection with the Queens Line at 63rd Drive would not come to pass. LIRR service to Rockaway Park via Far Rockaway ended on October 2nd, 1955. Between October 3rd, 1955 and June 8th, 1956, the elevated trackage in the Rockaways was converted for operation by the IND. The terminal station at Mott Avenue was severed from the LIRR. Former LIRR stations at "The Raunt", Goose Creek and Hamilton Beach were eradicated when the IND took over.
On June 9th, 1956, the first IND clearance train left the Fulton Street El bound for the Rockaways. On June 28th, 1956, the first official train left Howard Beach at 5:30pm, dressed with a "Rockaway, Here We Come" sign. It was not of the standard R-10 types; for this occasion, the first train would consist of newer equipment, the R-16s, even though they didn't provide normal service on the line.
For a time, the Rockaway Line was considered a separate division of the NYC Transit System, called the Rockaway Division. Until the mid-70s, an extra fare of 15 cents was collected at Broad Channel. While the E train provided service on the line, it was the longest rapid transit run in New York City (over 36 miles); in the late 50s, some said this was the world's longest rapid transit run. The extra fare was required until September 1st, 1975, when the fare became 50 cents anywhere on the transit system.
Mott Avenue was not yet open when IND Rockaway service began; the temporary terminal was Beach 25th St / Wavecrest. Mott Avenue opened in June of 1958. The remaining portion of the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch north of the Fulton Street El was abandoned by the LIRR on June 8th, 1962. While talk of resurrecting this line for JFK airport service surfaces from time to time, the ROW north of the Liberty Avenue El continues to remain unused to this day.
--Mark
Do the Broad Street tracks connect with the Reading tracks at Fern Rock?
Yes they do.
Of course there is no third rail once the connecting spur leaves the Fern Rock yard limits. I'm not sure when this may have even been used lately. For a long time there was a railroad boxcar and flatcar in Fern Rock yard (for some unknown reason) a few years back, and I assume that's how they got there.
Years ago there was a similar connection between the long-gone PRR Cardington branch and the P & W alongside the El right-of-way west of Millbourne. The third rail stretched a good distance back. I can recall seeing a few P & W cars stored on this track from the El on the way into 69th St (this was when I was a child in the mid-60's). I was later told that the PRR brought freight into the 69th Street yards of the P & W via this branch, but I don't know if this is verifiable.
I believe that all the old BSS cars were delivered from Brill and Pressed Steel on their own wheels over this connector at Fern Rock. Conversely the old Market Street and Frankford El cars came over city streets from the Brill factory since the MFSE is wide gage.
Also didn't Red Arrrow or a predecessor have a freight terminal near or at the site of the Sears Store? That would also have given some business to the PRR Cardington Branch.
PS - I enjoyed the recent thread on the M-4s. I have only ridden them once but I was generally impressed. Regarding the seats, the padded seats on the 01800s here in Boston have held up fairly well, all things considered. They look a tad grungy, and a few have been re-upholstered with bright red vinyl (yuk). But otherwise I'd say they are a success, preferable to hard plastic any day!
GEE I THINK THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MFSL AND THE BSS 2 @ THE CITY HALL STATION. YESTERDAY I SAW THE DIAMONDS IN THE TUNNEL WHERE THE 2 LINES CROSS.
The MFSE and the BSS do NOT connect at City Hall. They don't even cross at grade, so NO diamonds. They are on two separate levels and there are no connections.
Dr Cox's "The Road From Upper Darby" and an ERA Headlights from about 1978 offer excellent histories of the MFSE and BSS, respectively.
The MFSE was relocated in the City Hall area, one of several changes that the line has undergone since its construction. I don't believe the BSS has changed much if any in the City Hall area.
The BSS runs around City Hall and is at a lower level than the MFSE.
If you stand at the City Hall station of the BSS, you can hear the MFSE trains crossing above you. Besides, the two systems have different track guages.
Chuck Greene
Pitkin Mtce Shop R-32 G.O.H. Available for duration of GO-
3356/7 360/1 370/1 375/7 380/1 383/890 384/5 394/5 396/7
3400/1 3404/5 406/7 412/3 414/5 416/7 424/5 426/7 428/9
432/3 434/5 438/9 440/1 442/3 448/9 452/3 460/1 464/5
476/7 484/5 488/9 492/3
3504/5 510/1 518/9 520/891 522/3 538/9 548/593 550/1
552/3 (Is this 3552/453?-It's listed as both.) 606/7
610/1 618/9 628/669 646/7 650/767 654/5 658/471 698/9
3714/5 728/9 786/7 804/5 810/1 818/9 820/1 822/3 828/9
834/5 836/7 840/1 856/7 864/5 868/9 870/1 872/3 876/7
878/9 888/9 894/5 896/7
3912/3 928/9 932/3
3552-3553 and 3452-3453 are not Odd Couples. That must be a typo.
Wayne
Pitkin Mtce Shop R-32 G.O.H. Available for duration of GO-
3356/7 360/1 370/1 375/7 380/1 383/890 384/5 394/5 396/7
3400/1 3404/5 406/7 412/3 414/5 416/7 424/5 426/7 428/9
432/3 434/5 438/9 440/1 442/3 448/9 452/3 460/1 464/5
476/7 484/5 488/9 492/3
3504/5 510/1 518/9 520/891 522/3 538/9 548/593 550/1
552/3 (Is this 3552/453?-It's listed as both.) 606/7
610/1 618/9 628/669 646/7 650/767 654/5 658/471 698/9
3714/5 728/9 786/7 804/5 810/1 818/9 820/1 822/3 828/9
834/5 836/7 840/1 856/7 864/5 868/9 870/1 872/3 876/7
878/9 888/9 894/5 896/7
3912/3 928/9 932/3
Experts Warn of Web Surfing Risk
WASHINGTON (AP) - The nation's top computer experts warned Internet users Wednesday about a serious new security threat that allows hackers to launch malicious programs on a victim's computer or capture information a person volunteers on a Web site, such as credit card numbers.
The threat, dubbed "cross-site scripting," involves dangerous computer code that can be hidden within innocuous-looking links to popular Internet sites. The links can be e-mailed to victims or published to online discussion groups and Web pages.
The vulnerability was especially unusual because it is not limited to software from any particular company. Any Web browser on any computer visiting a complex Web site is at risk.
No one apparently has been victimized yet. But the risks were described as potentially so serious and affected such a breadth of even the largest, most successful Web sites that the industry's leading security group said nothing consumers can do will completely protect them.
Only a massive effort by Web site designers can eliminate the threat, according to the CERT Coordination Center of Carnegie Mellon University and others. Software engineers at CERT issued the warning Wednesday together with the FBI and the Defense Department.
The problem, discovered weeks ago but publicly disclosed Wednesday, occurs when complex Internet sites fail to verify that hidden software code sent from a consumer's browser is safe.
Experts looking at how often such filtering occurred found that Internet sites failing to perform that important safety check were "the rule rather than the exception," said Scott Culp, the top security program manager at Microsoft.
"Any information that I type into a form, what pages I visit on that site, anything that happens in that session can be sent to a third-party, and it can be done transparently," Culp warned. He added: "You do have to click on a link or follow a link in order for this to happen."
The dangerous code also can alter information displayed in a consumer's Web browser, such as account balances or stock prices at financial sites. And it can capture and quietly forward to others a Web site's "cookie," a small snippet of data that could help hackers impersonate a consumer on some Internet pages.
"It really goes across a huge number of sites," said Marc Slemko, a Canadian software expert who studied the problem. Slemko said Internet-wide repairs will be "a very, very major undertaking."
In the interim, experts strongly cautioned Internet users against clicking on Web links from untrusted sources, such as unsolicited e-mail or messages sent to discussion forums.
They also recommended that consumers at least consider preventing their Web browser software from launching small programs, called scripts. But they acknowledged that many Internet sites require that function to operate.
"A large number of sites simply aren't usable" without those functions, Slemko said.
Microsoft said it planned to publish full details and step-by-step instructions for consumers at its Web site, www.microsoft.com/security.
Sounds like another URBAN LEGEND!!!!
"Sounds like another URBAN LEGEND!!!!"
Yeah, the link goes nowhere.
Alan Glick
However, there is a major newstory about a former Director of the CIA who has lost his security clearance because he stored all kinds of highly classified work on his home computer, which was also used to surf porno websites. The articles, which on all the major news-sites, say hackers can break into anyone's computer via the internet, take stuff, and not allow anyone to know they've been there.
LA LA LA! So if it says not to click on links sent to discussion forums, I guess that means that we will no longer be visiting the NTH WARD by using those Roman banners now, will we? It's all Greek to ME!
"LA LA LA! So if it says not to click on links sent to discussion forums, I guess that means that we will no longer be visiting the NTH WARD by using those Roman banners now, will we? It's all Greek to ME!"
Funny that the original post contained a link to a Microsoft site that was bogus. Is somebody yanking our train?
Alan Glick
Yes. My employer's security group has already sent out a corporate-wide email instructing employees not to forward such bogus information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If one stays on a #6 while its turning around through the old City Hall Station, can you see anything of the old station, are there lights? or is it just shadows?
You can see the station on the right side of the train, it is lit. If you can manage to stay on the train. All passengers are supposed to be discharged before the train goes thru the loop. The N. Y. Transit Museum used to give tours but paranoid Rudy stopped them.
Peace,
Andee
I know your suopposed to get off but every day when I trans. from exp to lcl there is at least one person who forgot to get off....
Oops!, C/R not doing their job!
Peace,
Andee
they usually look like lost tourists
There are supposed to be Conductors on the Platform making sure everyone is off the 6 before it leaves Brooklyn Bridge so you don't carry a bomb under City Hall (or post Vote for Hillary Posters in the old station).
I guess during Rush hour the train leave the staion to fast to double check they are empty
The City Hall station would be an ideal location to place a large explosive device that would damage/destroy City Hall above. Rudy isn't as "paranoid" as you might think. He's just being extra cautious.
True but, as long as people ARE still able to ride thru stopping the tours is not going to prevent it from possibly happening.
Peace,
Andee
most of the people I've seen come out of the tunnel are already looking at the maps trying to figure out where they are...
"The City Hall station would be an ideal location to place a large explosive device that would damage/destroy City Hall above. Rudy isn't as "paranoid" as you might think. He's just being extra cautious."
The voice of reason speaks. Too bad all the security measures being taken now at places like this and the World Trade Center had to come without some tragedy occurring.
Oops I was rushing when I wrote my message.
I meant that the security measures could have come without a tragedy occurring, but unfortunately the World Trade Center tragedy happened.
Actually, the whole idea of closing the City Hall station to tours is defeated by not making sure that the #6 trains are completely empty before pulling out of Brooklyn Bridge. During rush hour, they don't even bother.
My point exactly
Peace,
Andee
No - when Rudy stops allowing controlled tours by NYC Transit personnel to genuiously curious people or railfans, I think's that's paranoia.
You can't even take a tour of City Hall itself anymore but you can take one of the White House.
--Mark
I don't think paranoia is in Mr. Bill's vocabulary. Heck, make him an offer and he'll put you up in the Lincoln Bedroom.
I think Bubba uses the tours to scope for new chicks.
That too.
02/03/2000
Speaking of Bubba:
Six Presidents were on a sinking ship.
Gerald Ford said "What will we do?"
George Bush said "Man the lifeboats"
Ronald Reagan said "Huh?, What lifeboats"
Jimmy Carter said "Women first"
Dick Nixon said "Screw the women"
BILL CLINTON said "Do you think we have time?"
Bill Newkirk
Bill Clinton isn't as skilled at making people hate him. Guiliani's style of governing will almost certainly create violence among some of his political enemies and kooks who simply don't like him. It's not paranoia.
They only have those Conductors assigned during Weekdays and on Weekends the its up to the Train Crew to clean out the train.
My point exactly.
Peace,
Andee
Caught the first February showing last night, included:
- 125th M-N station re-hab ... Part II, incl. some history
- Introducing the R-142 ... more details & close up photos ... NICE
- 20 Watt vs. 80W bulbs in the subways ... interesting
- What one employee is doing for FUN ... a winter baseball camp for young kids, Mets John Franko stopped by.
====================================
Off topic ... filler ?
- Liberty Sicence Center at Jersey City
- 2000 Census ... why you should fill yours out
So, catch it if you can, 1/2 hour on LI channel 80
Mr t__:^)
And today on BCAT at 6pm, I'm sure to watch.
For those who don't pay an arm and a leg for service from the evil cable monopoly, it's on Saturdays at I believe 2PM, on WNYE-25.
The cable monopoly is almost as bad as the subway monopoly. Neither is as bad as the major league sport monopoly.
Well, one can always look to smaller leagues for sports, one can get a sattelite dish (which costs LESS and offers MORE). The subway has no alternative, unless you want to pay exorbitant parking rates.
Don't forget it's on WNYE (25) Saturday at 3:30 PM.
When I stepped off the F train at Propsect Park -- 15th Street there were about 15 cops on the platform and the area around the token booth was screened off with police tape. I asked a cop what happened, and he said there was a crime, but would not say anything more. There were a bunch of packages on the floor in front of the booth.
I hightailed it home, since the kids came home with a teenage baby sitter yesterday, and they sometimes take the train one stop home from school. But they had taken the bus.
By the time my wife came home 30 minutes later, the cops and most of the tape were gone.
Anyone know what happened?
robert johnson
james carlson
same e-mail//same i.p address // f.y.i.
And what about you? Why are you using the damn fool's e-mail address?
The damn fool seems to be posting from an Israeli domain.
I'm curious as to what the major differences are between these two means of power distribution. IIRC, catenary is suitable for high voltage applications such as the New Haven line while overhead wire is almost universally used for streetcars. Is is true that pantographs are used with catenary while trolley poles are used with overhead wire?
I'm trying to figure out just what type of power distribution is used on Denver's light rail line. On the street running portion, there is plain old overhead wire with no suspenders. On the private ROW, suspender cables are used; I suspect it may have to do with higher operating speeds. I do know this much: our LRVs operate on 750 volts DC and they are equipped with pantographs.
Latest on the Southwest Corridor: the whatever-you-want-to-call-it is being strung as far south as Hampden Ave., and support towers are in place as far as Oxford Ave. I have observed crews working at the stations, as well as ballast being put down along the tracks. Wayside signals are being installed. Still no canopies at the Hampden Ave. station, although lampposts are there.
A snag has developed concerning the proposed Central Platte Valley Spur. The owners of Union Station now want RTD to lease space for the light rail spur, whereas before, they had agreed to pitch in on the cost of construction. If an agreement is not reached, the line may terminate at 16th St. instead.
Simple trolley wire is a single wire suspended from the holders either on span or side arms.
Canteary usually has a steel wire over head that supports it and the contact wire is suspended from the other wire. It allows longer spans between poles and a stronger instalation
The top wire can have a lot of sag between poles but the contact wire remains level.
Contact wire is usually limited to about 2" between 100 foot supports at 72 degrees.
Pantograph and trolley poles are methods up picking up power The support for the wire is different. On trolley wire they try to stay as close to the center of track as possible so the pole tracks better. On Pan the wire zig zags a bit to even the wear on the contact bow and to keep it from becomming grooved.
Also the steel messenger wire in a catenary system is under
tremendous tension. Steel can tolerate it, and it allows very
long runs between supports. Trolley wire, which is hard-drawn
copper or bronze, is strung under much less tension and tends
to sag even when supports are close together.
I forget the details but there is a difference between wire frogs
designed for trolley poles and for pantograph shoes. I believe,
but I might easily be mistaken, that pans used on trolley wire
will wear quickly because of it (plus the grooving effect you
mentioned), whereas trolley poles operating on specialwork
designed for pans will not track through the wire frogs.
When the changed over the wire in Newark City Subway recently to
accomodate the new junk^H^H^H^HLRVs, which have to have pans
because they suck so much current, they had to retrofit pans
onto the PCCs because mixed trolley/pan operation wasn't feasible.
Have you ever ridden in the LRVs? Why do you call them junk then?
And this is also something I continue to say about the R-142 whenever a detractor decides to call it crap.
Have you ever ridden in the LRVs? Why do you call them junk then?
No, I haven't ridden those particular LRVs, but I don't think
that's a particularly valuable way to assess a car.
And this is also something I continue to say about the R-142 whenever a detractor decides to call it crap.
I call them crap not because of some sentimental feelings for
the older equipment, but in objection to the over-engineering
that goes into them. 200 parts to close a door (Type 7s).
A computer to monitor toilet flushes (LIRR C-3). As for the Newark
LRVs, did you hear how one of them got wrecked? Seems one of the
LRVs dropped dead. Another came up to push it. Only problem is,
the cars being smarter than you, the pusher LRV's propulsion
system kept on dropping out trying to push the slug upgrade.
So, they decided to get a running start.....you can guess the rest.
And it's not like you can do something simple like wedge in the
overload relay to get around this problem.
Did the design specs call for one car to be able to push another? If so, NJT should send them back to the factory. If not, NJT should have whoever drew up the specs buy NJT a diesel unit for pushing dead cars around -- and then fire the jerk.
Denver's private ROW portion has what appears to be copper support wire. It's copper-colored, anyway, and the contact wire looks nice and level. The street-running portion, as I mentioned, has contact wire and nothing else. It does appear to dip between poles if you look down the street.
I suspect it's phosphor-bronze - it doesn't corrode as easily as copper does and it retains a lot of copper's natural flexibility and strength. It has a high copper content - Frank Gatazka can probably tell us how much.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NJT/AMtrak uses copper (or copper look alike.) I have seen new sections go up and watch it turn to "green" (Copper oxides["rusts"] to green)
Note to chemists: YES. I know copper does not rust but iron does. Even Iron erusting is actually oxidation. I used the easy worsd rather than the hard word and it is in quotes.
Even the copper tops on the four towers of the main building on Ellis Island will eventually turn green; I think they're starting to do so already. Has it really been almost 10 years, come September, since they restored that building? Hard to believe...
I read monday article in the daily new that said the reason that the C was taken out was that it carries fewer riders than the E line and the reason why there was no increase in e service period is limited track space and cars to utilize. is this true, because i don't belive that is entirly accurate at all. this was what i thought they may have done
1)add some of the C trains not used onto the E linemaybe terminate some at 71st queens
2)have the C run its full route to lefferts as a local the A remain the same and since the E can't stop at world trade, express stops to euclid ave.,then local to lefferts
but like it was said they don't have enough track or wahteverexcuse they can pull to run less trains, but is this statemnet in the daily new article true?
According to the signs in the subway. there is extra service on the e line and they all run from jamica center, to Euclid Ave
E service in Queens and Manhattan is about the same as it was before the extension to Brooklyn. Fulton St. local riders have the added benefit of increased headways on the E during rush hours. I rode the A yesterday morning, and there were no problems.
The people who get screwed are the CPW local riders, stuck with B service only. But it's nice to see the affluent riders get shafted in favor of the outer boros for a change.
I rode the A on Monday during the PM rush (about 6 PM) down to Chambers Street. There was a backup beyond Spring Street for the A and the E to merge beyond Canal.
I wasn't sure whether this was the result of some other incident, or if it was because higher frequency of E trains was causing the bottleneck going down to one Brooklyn bound track at Chambers. Has this been going on for the rest of the week, or was this just an isolated first-day kink in the system?
Chuck
I'd expect traffic to move through the Cranberry St. tube at about the same rate as it does through the 53rd. St. tunnel. It'll slow down a bit, but it never really stops.
If capacity ever becomes a problem, they should consider cancelling those special Rockaway Park A train runs.
I was stuck outside Canal (slow from Spring) on the at 5pm yesterday. THEY allowed THREE (3) Express trains to go before giving his the lineup. I assumed it was one express train for each of the A's terminals. People were ripping mad on the E.
If you look at today's ny post on pg 12, president clinton has decided to give $5 million for ny to bulid a 2nd avenue subway to run fom 125th street to 63rd street. the two things that shock me is, will he actually do this and will this be bulit in my lifetime?
how much of a subway will $5 million build????
Average cost per mile of new subway construcion, 5 mil will build a whopping:
1/8 MILE OF SUBWAY!
WOW! 1/8th of a mile! I could walk that in like a minute. WOW!
The MTA predicts the 2nd Avenue subway will cost $1 billion per mile. Did you actually say $5 billion?
If it's $5 billion, then it looks like a naked attempt to help Hillary beat Rudy. And who cares? Show us the money! I'll still vote for Rudy.
Hey, I might vote for Hillary if we'd actually get the $5 billion. But not only do I not believe it is forthcoming, I couldn't even find the NY Post article the person who started this thread referred to.
I figured about a year ago that NYC could expect to see a promise of some Second Ave. subway $$$ if the missus did run for Senate. If she gets elected and the Democrats retake the House and Senate while the Republicans win the White House, we might actually see a buck or two of it end up in a transportation appropriations bill when Hillary runs for president in 2004.
I"ll vote for Rudy just so my union does not have to deal with him for my contract. NO RAISE, ever here of cost of living??? NO MORE ZEROS!!!
(Kinda like No Zeros for Heros the police use).
You my good man, under stand exactly what I'm talkin about!!!!
If Hillary does run for President, she just lost one vote.
($5 million to do a study)
Make that a lost Senate vote. Let me guess, there was a big press conference to announce this? As long as politicians continue to get in the newspaper for "studies" we'll never get any improvments.
I guess it's not who you know anymore.I GUESS it's more like'WHO YOU BLOW AND WHO BLOWS YOU!! This is discusting. Out of the blue,they want to give the TA 'help' to build the new subway? Iguess that a sure way to get votes. Boy I wonder if Rudy sweatin bullets aboutright now? I mean this guy is basically tring to buy NEW YORK votes for his wife with this stunt,for something that we paid for over 20 years ago with tax payer money. What's that I smell? smells like... smells like...I KNOW!! Smells like BULL---- !!!!
02/03/2000
How much of that 5 billion comes from the White Water land deal ?
Bill Newkirk
THAR SHE BLOWS,CAPTAIN!!!!!!!!Huh?.... WELL, BLOW ME DOWN!!!!!!!
Isn't that Monica's line, or,maybe Ken Starr's?
02/05/2000
Poor Monica, she recently submitted a resume for a job and for desciption of past employment put down "sat on the Presidential staff"!!
Bill Newkirk
$5 million? That should be enough to buy the press coffee and donuts at the official groundbreaking ceremony.
WHAT,was this a gesture to buy votes for his dear long suffering,tring to win a NEW YORK spot,down south native,NEW YORKER WANNABE,had to take a crash course in NEW YORK lingo,the real person running this country ,STILL MAD ABOUT THE BLOWJOB,lovey wife
Read it again. It says 'to STUDY', not 'to build' $5M is like a penny's worth of funding.
-Hank
Problem is, the damn thing's been "studied" since 1928! Stop the studies and start digging.
What's to study? The city already had a plan approved in the early 70's, and constructon had already begun. Just pick up where they left off when construction was halted, but divert the line at 63rd. St. over to the Lex. Ave. station.
That was what the line was supposed to do when it was started in the 1970s.
Just look at what the last MTA study got us. A recommendation for a"stubway" to nowhere because there just wasn't justification for anything south of 63rd Street.
I sure don't know what the authors of that study must have been inhaling because it sure must have clouded their vision and their minds.
This is not the first time that money has been
allocated to build a 2nd Ave Subway.
In 1951, they had gotten 500 million for the same purpose -
and it mysteriously disappeared.
02/05/2000
The 500 million dollars for the 2nd Avenue dreamway didn't disappear, it was used elsewhere to catch up on deferred maintenance and maybe some subway cars, (R-15? etc).
Bill Newkirk
Are the cars seen in the Tom Cruise movie "Risky Business" still in use in Chicago? They look old school.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The "Risky Business" cars were single unit cars of the 1-50 series, built 1959 by the St. Louis Car Co. They were similar to the 6000 series, but were single cars (rather than married pairs), designed so they could be used for single car, one person operation (and were used as such on the Evanston shuttle and Skokie Swift lines). They've all been retired.
-- Ed Sachs
They also ran in trains of four or six cars on the Evanston Express, IIRC.
Noticed the many (4 or 5) lights outside PATH cars? What do they mean. I know that red is a "guard Light". I think the other lights are green, blue and white. Anyone know that those mean?
There are three lights outside the LIRR MU cabs. They are red, orange and green. What are the meaning of these?
They may be related to the brakes. At least here in Boston the commuter rail cars have the same pattern; red for an open door, green indicates brakes released, amber indicates brakes applied. Such is what I've been told at least. Perhaps someone else has better info???
That's my understanding too, Conrad. And the lights even work on the new (-ly rebuilt) 200-series cars and the 700-series bilevels. On the 300s and 600s most of the lights are not operational, or don't respond to changes in brake application.
On PATH, my guess would be that they are marker lights that were once required when they had manned towers.
-Hank
The are the route markers :
Red = WTC / Newark
Green = WTC / Hoboken
Yellow = 33rd st / Journal Sq
Blue = 33rd st / Hoboken
Can /do they still do Blue/Yellow for the weekend 33-JSQ via Hoboken service?
es. the Blue/yellow runs overnight and between 730pm-9am weekends.
If you live in Hungary then what is the scoop on the proposed M4 (green metro?) I have heard it will not serve the tri-level station that the M1, M2, and M3 serve and that it will jog south instead to get to the balatoni???
No, I am not from Hungary. I live in Brooklyn.
I live in Brooklyn and I'm always Hungry.
That's worth a rim shot.
Sure has been nice having a few extra trains to change to at Jay Street. Brooklyn could get used to this. I know there is a car shortage, but could the C run local to WTC, and the E express on 8th Avenue and local on Fulton Street? Sure would be nice.
us Queens folk would love an E express on 8th Av even better would be to switch it at W 4th with the F and send the E to Coney Island and the F to Euclid, so 8 ave riders could get to Coney w/o a trans.
Good Idea run the E to Coney Island and the F to Euclid
Someone needs to write the Congressmen or Communtiy Boards in Clinton Hill or Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn so that some pressure could be put on the TA to keep the E in Brooklyn. There is now twice as much local service along Fulton Street now. Once the folks there get used to it, the rug will be pulled out from under them, and back to 10-minute headways all day on the C(reepy)C(rawler). That's too bad.
Yeah, but it's inevitable. The E was 2/3 empty at rush hour. They ain't going add trains to move empty seats. Nice while it last, though.
If you're lucky, the same people working on the WTC interlocking are the ones who promised the Manny B would only take a couple of years to fix. Then you can have E service on Fulton through about 2010.
When I was in New York last summer, the E train ran from Jamaica Station to the World Trade Center, and it was underground all the way. What is the route of the E now, and is still all subway, or is it partly elevated? I like to keep abreast of route changes.
No, it's still all subway, but it runs exactly as a C train would south of Canal St.
Thanks Chris, and if you see any other route changes, let me know. I want to keep abreast. I'm making changes on my NYC Subway map I got last summer when I was in New York.
Hey Fred, I thought you were smarter then that, check out the MTA site and then service changes. I think they have a newer map also then the one last summer. You can write the TA at 370 Jay Street Bklyn 11201 and ask for a subway map. They will send you one FREE
"...check out the MTA site..."
Don't be so confident about the MTA site. As I posted a few days ago, the map on that site contains errors.
After I posted, I called the MTA and spoke to the webmaster. She expressed surprise that there were errors, and told that the map would be changed soon. However, the error-laden map is still there as of Friday evening.
So, unless you want to become informed that a "yellow" shuttle is going to Queensbridge from 57/7th in place of the B/Q, that the E train does not stop at the Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd., and that Euclid Ave. is located in Queens, then checking the web site would not be such a good idea right now.
So, the best thing to do is really to write the MTA for a free map at the address Bob gave, or else call them at (718)330-1234 and request one.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Fred: If you want to e-mail me your address I'll be glad to send you a copy of the current map.
Larry (RedbirdR33@hotmail.com)
You shouldn't change your copy of the map for this E change. It will only last a month (1/28-2/28) and isn't listed on any edition of the map. It's just a long term GO (General Order) as opposed to an outright service change.
Here are the changes (everything will be back to normal on 2/28):
Local service in Manhattan begins earlier, at 9PM (normally 11). All trains stop at all times at 155th Street and 163rd Street, normally local stops.
Trains run to 145th Street on weekends in addition to weekdays.
Service eliminated
Extended to Euclid Avenue as local, uses Chambers Street platform at Chambers-WTC. Nights runs to Canal Street.
63rd Street shuttle runs weekends in addition to nights to make up for B reroute up CPW.
Actually the B runs to 168St, not 145......
On Weekends, or middays too?
Right now for the GO, I think it runs there all ties except for rush hours........
3TM
As I understand, A trains will stop at 155th and 163rd Sts. during rush hours and nights.
If you were to assign a certain group of 75-foot cars which shall remain nameless, then (C)rawler would be an appropriate nickname.:)
If you did that, there would inevitably be delays because both E and F trains would have to use those switches. Not that it wasn't done before, because it was...
I will be in Atlanta from 2/7 to 2/12 and want to know what is a must see on MARTA??
I know to have Thurston and Doug BMT MAN to be my "best" friend I have to find a Superbowl Card. But what can you guys suggest to see (more on the RR side?? I hope to have Monday Afternoon and Saturday to explore.
Afraid not very much, fellow Lou. You can do the whole system in about a good afternoon. When taking the N/S line form the airport, do note the track coming in from their storage yards to your left. The stations are large, clean and (mostly) empty. Oh yeah! On the N/S line pay atention as you pass over the old Southern main line, Amtrak stores a couple of Amfleet cars there middays waiting to go back north on The Crescent. Actually- some nice views once you come out of the downtown tunnels. Also bring your Metrocard holder for your MARTA pass...they tend to lose their magnetism after a few swipes (MARTA personnel are quite used to it, though..)* Have fun!! The closest thing to Nathans in Atlanta,BTW, is a place called The Varsity (North Ave on MARTA) a HUGE drive-in [LITERALLY..they still have car hop service!] with GREAT chili dogs, the COLDEST Coke youll ever have in your life,** fantastic Onion Rings (so-so fries). For dessert get the orange frosty-ummmmmmmm! Any more questions...email me!
*in the summer they wilt if you keep it in your pocket!
** just down the street from coke world HQ....
you mean they still use CHEAP PAPER TRANSCARDS ??
and do the trains still throw you back and fourth especially from the gannett station to five points!!!
bankers hours slow service ( LIKE LOST ANGELES) !!!! and SMELLY CARPET ON THE FLOORS ???
Thanks Lou!! I do it, Monday when I arrive I think...
I first thing I'd do would be to print a copy of the MARTA station by station on this site that yours truly wrote.
The stations that you should visit are Peachtree Center, beautiful station; Decatur, with the "futuristic look"; Ashby, two levels, see the Bankhead spur spilt down the tunnel on the west end of the station; Five Points.
Travel eastbound past Avondale and get a nice view of the Avondale Yard as the train passes over it.
Going westbound, between King Memorial and Georgia State, excellent view of Downtown, Midtown on the right. Staying westbound past Georgia State, try to see the only interline track between the North-south and east-west lines, it will be on the left side of the train, between the two mainline tracks and it goes down below them.
Take a Dunwoody train to Lindbergh Center, and count how many times the T/O annouces that the train is a "Dunwoody train," before arriving at Lindbergh. If you stay on the Dunwoody train, all the stations on the north line are nice looking.
If you take a Doraville train past Lindbergh, look out the left side when the North and Northeast line split, you get a nice view of Buckhead.
Nearly every station has some sort of artwork in it. Try to see them from the train. North Ave artwork, I like. Notice the cement at Midtown, and Arts Center, they did a good job to make it look like wood.
About the Superbowl card, I can't help you there. I never bought a TransCard for January, so I don't know if the January card had a Superbowl thing on it. If you buy a weekly vistor's pass, maybe it will have something on it. I know that some tokens had a superbowl logo on it, but I never got any.
Thanks Rob, didn't know about the line by line (haven't been there for a long time) will read it ASAP.
As to the Super Bowl card, looks like my friendship with Thurston and BMT Man will be over in a week....>G<...
Lou, Maybe you'll get lucky, I'll keep my fingers crossed. But even if you don't, you're still part of the 3/4 ton club.
BTW, to the rest of you folks the 3/4 ton club is a little known R-17 maint. tool .
Mr t__:^)
I have my fingers crossed for you MetroCard collectors that I can find one. Heck my wallpaper is a picture of R17 6688 >G<.....(with Low-V in backround).
Lou, thanks for putting me in the "friend" catagory. heypaul may have to take you to task on that, so expect some "flaming" in the future.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
FLAMING ?? WHAT FLAMING ??!!! MARTA RAIL SYSTEM ???
what in the hell is there to see ??? """ been there 1984 done that 1987"""
what rail system ???? LIKE LOST ANGELES TO ME !!!
if you want to see a rail system try WASHINGTON DC PHILADELPHIA SAN FRANCISCO
BOSTON NEW YORK CITY ( skip past atlanta ) !!!!!!!!!!!!
On February 3, 2000 I have observed the following...
R68 - 2514 with window frames inserted the wrong way. It was inside out. Potential hazard because if a fool on the train happens to see that and has a screwdriver he can take the windows out. Don't know why but there are people out there that might do that. NOTE: Another 2 cars in the set have the same problem. I don't have numbers.
R68 - 2725 has a shattered window. Its not broken but one more hard blw it'll be.
I also saw a couple of R68s from
On February 3, 2000 I have observed the following...
R68 - 2514 with window frames inserted the wrong way. It was inside out. Potential hazard because if a fool on the train happens to see that and has a screwdriver he can take the windows out. Don't know why but there are people out there that might do that. NOTE: Another 2 cars in the set have the same problem. I don't have numbers.
R68 - 2725 has a shattered window. Its not broken but one more hard blw it'll be.
I also saw a consist of R68s from Concourse Yard attached to ones from Coney Island Yard. That's all I saw out of the ordinary.
You are very observant. However, this is being done intentionally. The screws will be replaced with tamper proof screws in the very near future. Replacing the glass from the outside is more dangerous and time consuming than from the inside. We are now mandated to turn all door panel glass around. This is not new as pre-overhaul, most NYTA cars were glazed with rubber and was installed from the inside.
I called up Newsradio 88's "Ask The Mayor" show a few minutes ago. I was able to ask him "In light of the fact that the White House does not feel there is enough of a terrorist threat to cancel tours, why do you feel you cannot permit tours of the historic IRT station under City Hall and City Hall itself?"
The Mayor's response was that City Hall station is under the control of the Police Department and the Transit Authority, and that it is their concerns of a terrorist threat that keep tours, and the Transit Museum, from the station.
I think this laughable--that the Mayor contends that his attitude has nothing to do with this. If Fuhrer--excuse me, I mean Mayor, Giuliani, chose to, he could say a word and tours of City Hall Station could be resumed under security conditions that would satisfy all reasonable concerns.
Just another example not only of the Fuhrer's--i mean the Mayor's paranoia, and his refusal to take responsibility for his fascist approach to city government.
I think MEIN FUHRER doth sweat quite buckets in lite of yon 5 billion[or doth tis be million] greenbacks the KING willth give to the pesents of yon hamlett. what thinkist thou????
I think I dont understand a damn word your saying....
Rudy can t be der Fuhrer, he is Italian, he has to be Il Duce.
Remember during the last election, how he came down like a ton of bricks on "Fascist" as a slur against his Italian heritage? Whoever said it (Mark Green?) was only looking for a nice word for "Nazi" and not thinking of the historical Mussolini government, but Rudy managed to get serious ethnic points out of it.
Interestingly, the political philosophy of 1920's Fascism centered on corporate dictatorship, the running of the country in the interests of what Ike called "the military-industrial complex"-- i.e., that what's good for Disney is good for the city.
ike'S quote was "what's good for General Motors is good for the United States of America" so half his cabinet came from gm.
John, just to set your American history straight, Ike wasn't the one who said it. It was his Secretary of Defense who said it. He had been the head of GM before Eisenhower tapped him for the top Defense Department job. His name was Charles E. Wilson.
Having been in the station when the Mayor (and NJ & NY Governors) are on-the-air, I'm absolutely amazed you got through. There are literally thousands of calls during each show which get busy signals; only a handful of those that actually ring are answered and put on the air.
I don't like the answer you got either, but at least you got an answer!
Let's see if I get an answer to the "Ask the Governor" question I e-mailed in. It went as follows:
"In your State of the State message, you proposed tax breaks to attract businesses to some New York State counties that need help, but not other counties. Guess which county's businesses would be allowed to pay lower state taxes under your proposal, County A or County B:
According to County Business Patterns data, County A gained nearly 100,000 private jobs from 1969 to 1997. County B lost nearly 100,000 private jobs during the same period.
According to the New York State Department of Labor, County A's unemployment rate is 3.9 percent, below the national average. County B's unemployment rate is 8.5 percent, double the national average.
According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the 1997 per capita income of County A was $28,588, above the national average. The per capita income of County B was @22,614, below the national average.
According to the census bureau's 1995 local poverty estimates, County A's poverty rate was 12.0 percent, below the national average, but County B's poverty rate was 29.3 percent, off the charts.
The answer is: George Pataki has proposed lower taxes for County A, "needy" Monroe County, because it is in Upstate New York. County B, "undeserving" Kings County would not be eligible."
Set see him explain that one on the air.
[Let's see if I get an answer to the "Ask the Governor" question I e-mailed in. It went as follows:
"In your State of the State message, you proposed tax breaks to attract businesses to some New York State counties that need help, but not other counties. Guess which county's businesses would be allowed to pay lower state taxes under your proposal, County A or County B:
According to County Business Patterns data, County A gained nearly 100,000 private jobs from 1969 to 1997. County B lost nearly 100,000 private jobs during the same period.
According to the New York State Department of Labor, County A's unemployment rate is 3.9 percent, below the national average. County B's unemployment rate is 8.5 percent, double the national average.
According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the 1997 per capita income of County A was $28,588, above the national average. The per capita income of County B was @22,614, below the national average.
According to the census bureau's 1995 local poverty estimates, County A's poverty rate was 12.0 percent, below the national average, but County B's poverty rate was 29.3 percent, off the charts.
The answer is: George Pataki has proposed lower taxes for County A, "needy" Monroe County, because it is in Upstate New York. County B, "undeserving" Kings County would not be eligible."]
While I'm not necessarily defending the Governor's position, there is more to the County A/County B situation than meets the eye. Monroe County's 100,000 new jobs were for the 1969-to-1997 period. That's a mighty long stretch. If most or even all of those jobs gains occurred, say, between 1969 and 1989, with net losses ever since, you hardly have the picture of an economically healthy county. And this may be more than mere speculation; from what I have heard and read (including figures cited in your "Vampire State" report), most of Upstate has been on the decline for at least a decade. Monroe County in particular has supposedly been hit hard by re-engineering at Eastman Kodak. On a somewhat similar note, Monroe County's low unemployment rate might reflect the outflow of thousands of working-age people. Shrinking the labor force can lower the unemployment rate even when there aren't many new jobs. And the outflow of the unemployed also can raise per capita income while lowering the poverty rate. It's as if only the strong survive, in the wilds of Monroe County. In short, we need more information before passing judgment on the Governor's actions.
Monroe County is the most economically sucessful county Upstate, and Kings is the most economically unsuccessful county downstate (unless you are a Brooklyn politician, in which case you'd call it a success from having protected the borough from rapacious corporations bent on changing neighborhoods). So yes, they are exceptions in the general area that will be "in" or "out" in Pataki's plan.
But that's the point. If Pataki had used objective criteria to decide who is entitled to what, he would have gotten a different answer. Maybe Brooklyn would be in with the North Country. Maybe Monroe would have been out with Manhattan.
But he didn't. He only considered which areas he wanted to favor, and which he wanted to screw. And don't say that Brooklynites can get a job in Manhattan. I can, because I have a graduate degree. For others, its not so easy.
[Monroe County is the most economically sucessful county Upstate, and Kings is the most economically unsuccessful county downstate]
I thought that Bronx County would be in the latter position.
(Which is worse off, Bronx or Brooklyn).
Bronx residents are worse off. But Brooklyn has suffered a far greater economic decline as far as jobs within the borough.
In addition to Manhattan commuting, Brooklyn once had a substantial independent economic base in manufacturing and shipping. That is gone. The Bronx had less to lose -- it was always primarily a bedroom borough.
Moreover, the city failed to adequately "protect" the Bronx from new retail -- substantial commercial zones were mapped near Co-op City. Major commercial developments were banned from manufacturing zones in 1974 to "protect" them, thereby limiting commercial expansion in Brooklyn even as industry declined. But the Bronx has had a commercial boom in the Co Op City area, adding thousands of jobs.
Staten Island also has extensive commercial zoning, and growth, as does Manhattan. There are few places for Queens to grow, but the borough is rich enough that business interests have been able to overcome the tortuous process of rezoning from manufacturing to commercial -- in Downtown Flushing, in College Point, and in Long Island City.
But Brooklyn has been "protected." You should read the local weekly newspapers. "So and So Proposes New Business: Neighbors Outraged." The Brooklyn Heights "I've got mine, jack, so kiss my ass if you want to open a business in my borough" attitude, combined with a fear that new business will bring "outsiders" to southern rim communities, dominates the borough's politics.
Brooklyn definately needs a shove. More-so than Monroe County. Even approved projects are sitting idle -- no financing.
[But Brooklyn has been "protected" [from commercial development]. You should read the local weekly newspapers. "So and So Proposes New Business: Neighbors Outraged." The Brooklyn Heights "I've got mine, jack, so kiss my ass if you want to open a business in my borough" attitude, combined with a fear that new business will bring "outsiders" to southern rim communities, dominates the borough's politics.
Brooklyn definately needs a shove. More-so than Monroe County. Even approved projects are sitting idle -- no financing.]
I don't see why Brooklyn needs any kind of state assistance. Most of the borough's economic woes are largely homegrown, courtesy of this moronic anti-development attitude. Taxpayers elsewhere should not be obliged to rescue Brooklyn from its own idiocy.
(I don't see why Brooklyn needs special tax breaks)
I don't see why ANYONE needs special tax breaks. But if income is going to be redistributed, might as well do it down instead of up. Brooklyn's moronic politicians are half the story. The moronic polticians in the rest of the state are the other half.
Because Upstate voted for him and the city did not, so he feels he does not know the city anything
(Pataki screws NYC because Upstate voted for him and the City did not)
So why did Cuomo and Clinton screw NYC?
First, since I take liberties with my posts, it is a little ironic, that I
should object to the title of the post. Second,
does the word refer to politicians or to the people
who respond to this post.
Third, I am not overwhelmed by Governor Pataki, but
I think that he helped introduce the Metro Card to
New York City, perhaps as an incentive to vote for
him in his reelection. But the Metro Card really is
a blessing for people who live in 2 fare zones. It
has greatly encouraged mass transit ridership. It
has given me for the price of a Fun Pass the ability
to ride around the transit system like a kid,
getting on and off as much as I want. The express
bus fare is now $3 instead of $4. You can ride the
private bus lines and LI Bus as much as you want
with a Fun Pass or Unlimited Weekly Pass. The 10%
bonus on a $15 card has reduced the fare from $1.50.
As far as Brooklyn being in the economic dark ages,
I don't think that is true either.
But all of these innovations were during the Pataki Adminstration.
>>(Pataki screws NYC because Upstate voted for him and the City did not)
>>So why did Cuomo and Clinton screw NYC?
Because we'll vote for 'em anyway. Only swing counties are gonna get the goodies.
(Ask the Assholes)
Sounds like the name of a new game show starring your favourite politicians ... or is that a "debate"? ....
--Mark
Oh what is all the fret about?
When this Fuhrer is out you'll have a more compassionate leader who will let everyone stay on the 6 so that you can all see the City Hall Station once again.
Of course, if that person is any one of the men that seem to be the likely contenders, we will get a lot more than the City Hall station returned to the people. We'll also get the crime, and the filth and all the other wonderful nostalgic things that made this city so great to live in the early 90's.
But that's a small price to pay, right? At least we'll have the City Hall station back.
>>>Just another example not only of the Fuhrer's--i mean the Mayor's paranoia, and his refusal to take
responsibility for his fascist approach to city government. <<<
Isn't it about time to can the "fuhrer" and "fascist" comments regarding Giuliani? It's getting tiresome.
Thank god you never have lived under a *truly* oppressive government, on the left like Stalin or Pol Pot, or on the right like Mussolini or Hitler.
Or do you want to return to 2200 murders a year? The mob (amazingly celebrated in junk TV like the Sopranos) back in control of the Fulton Market and Javits? Hookers and muggers ruling Times Square?
I don't like historic subway stations being closed. This mayor feels it's necessary to close them; probably the next mayor will have a different policy.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Isn't it about time to can the "fuhrer" and "fascist" comments regarding Giuliani? It's getting tiresome."
I think we need to show some compassion towards people who can add nothing to conversations except name calling.
Alan Glick
Very well said, Mr. Walsh.
You can still tour the White House, but believe me DC is not as open as you seem to be implying.
Try visiting almost any public building in DC wearing sneakers with metal lasts, as I did. They make the metal detectors go off, and the police are none too friendly in putting you through the mill of emptying your pockets and using the hand-held detectors.
And when our Presidente visits, not only do they shut down the streets and highways for his sacred presence, they shut down the N train to Astoria when his motorcade is expected on Grand Central Parkway, lest a terrorist T/O suddenly divebomb his R46 at him.
And when our Presidente visits, not only do they shut down the streets and highways for his sacred presence, they shut down the N
train to Astoria when his motorcade is expected on Grand Central Parkway...
They've done that as far back as the Eisenhower administration.
<<<"...lest a terrorist T/O suddenly divebomb his R46 at him.>>>
When did they start putting R-46's onthe "N"? :-)
Peace
Andee
They haven't, although the R-46s did run on the N back in the late 70s.
SO there are secuirty checks in DC. Heck to get into 110 Livingstion Streetn (Hall of the Board (education) not to be confused with 130 Livingston) you need to pass through a metal detector and bags X-rayed. But all and all you have ACCESS to OUR GOVERNMENT. Heck you can explore most of the Capital Building and you don't need an appointment. Yes a security check and I can live with that.
Hey Barry: I take great offense that you refer to Mayor Guiliani as Fuhrer. To make even the remotest comparison of the mayor with Adolf Hitler is disgusting on your part. I can tell you I have no use for the Clintons but I would never refer to either of them as Fuhrer, Commissar, or any other Fascist or Communist handles. Get a hold of yourself.
Got the answer to my own question. Yesterday afternoon someone exiting the station was slashed with a razor, apparently at random by some nut. They had a cop posted today. Hope it wasn't anyone I know.
Don't worry if you thought no one was reading your previous post, I did.
(Thought no one was reading)
Nope, just figured no one knew the answer. Didn't like the answer I finally did get, but at least it wasn't a rape or murder. I've lived around here for 14 years and there have only been a couple of those, none in the subway station.
Don't Blast this because it's a sub pic and not a bus pic, Everyone should share this rare photo by me!
This is when I caught the R-142As being delivered across the GW Bridge!
Always
Trevor
They always said the GWB was built strong enough for rail traffic, though I think they had something else in mind. Any idea why the doors were left open?
It looks like they don't even have doors - or windows on the sides...
>It looks like they don't even have doors - or windows on the sides...
what college did YOU graduate from?
These didn't have the windows or doors yet, these were the shells being delivered to Kawasaki of Yonkers for the final assembly, anyone with a half a brain would be able to figure that out!
Trevor
Oh yeah, no one's gonna blast you. They'll be thanking you. Man! These are sharp pictures. Finally close ups! Why are the seats red? I thought they were supposed to be light blue just like the Redbirds.
Great photos! I've seen the cars at 180th Street yard outside the yard, but not from an up close view like this. I've never even seen this good of an interior shot from the 180th Street platforms. It's going to be nice to see these cars being tested on the tracks. I'll have to look for them when I go back home. Great photos!
We're losing the REDBIRDS for that???!?!!
Yes I know, aren't they beautiful? Much better than those Rustbirds.
of course we are! the redbirds are almost dead! besides we have move along and update technology to make lives easier. And atleast they don't corrode.
sweeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!! those are some hot pictures. Coming from Canada? probably. coming over the GW Bridge, it has to be.
The Kawasakis are Japanese. What do they have to do with Canada? They're going from Port Newark (or Elizabeth) to Yonkers. Do you think they could use the Lincoln Tunnel instead?
BTW, if they had come from Canada, they would use the Tappan Zee Bridge, or go by rail.
Trevor - nice pix!
I guess the train was waiting at the GWB with its doors open due to the waiting lights at the toll booth being on ("we're being held here by the dispatcher - we should be moving shortly").
And to think the plan of IND service across the GWB was always a rumour. Now we have proof that it wasn't! One day, these pictures will support a legend that the IRT once served Fort Lee, NJ :)
--Mark
Looks to me as if they are BOARDING the GWB on
the MANHATTAN side and heading over to NJ...
I assume that everyone here loves mass transit, and we all know the reasons why. I want to know why there are people that are totally aganist mass transit.
For example, here in the sprawl captial of the world, hundreds of thousands people put up with traffic jams miles long. People have to wake up hours early just to get to work on time. I cross a bridge, driving to the MARTA station in the morning, and everyday, traffic is at a standstill. People complain about the traffic, but they don't want transit. What gives?
Here are a few reasons I believe people don't want transit:
1. It will bring crime to the area (is this proven?)
2. Racism (unfortunately)
3. Bring down land values (doesn't transit usually raise values?)
4. Ignorant of advantages. The thing is, people who finally try transit, find it more convienent, and they start using it. I have a few friends who are like this
What does everyone here think?
(Let's keep it objective)
All four fears are correct.
When they started the DART light rail project in Dallas, there were people opposed to it because they were sure as soon as it was open scary Negros or Mexicans from the south side of town would ride out to the suburbs, steal their furniture and take it back home with them on the train, or even worse, rob their supermarket at gunpoint and then go down to the station to wait for the next train to arrive to make their getaway.
They also thought that the area around every station would be turned into a pre-Disney Times Square, and as a result, several suburbs full of people who fall under Reason No. 2 dropped out of the program.
Now that the system is open, they're trying to figure out a way to extend it, and I know the property vaules on some apartments my uncle owns near the Mockingbird Lane station have zoomed up since the line opened four years ago. Compared to driving the Central Expressway (Dallas' answer to the Gowanus)getting downtown is a breeze.
[I assume that everyone here loves mass transit, and we all know the reasons why. I want to know why there are people that are totally aganist mass transit.
Here are a few reasons I believe people don't want transit:
1. It will bring crime to the area (is this proven?)
2. Racism (unfortunately)
3. Bring down land values (doesn't transit usually raise values?)
4. Ignorant of advantages.]
I'd add a fifth: exasperation with the subsidies that transit always requires. A transit system that covered all operating and capital costs at the fare box would be much more acceptable.
I'd add a fifth: exasperation with the subsidies that transit always requires. A transit system that covered all operating and capital costs at the fare box would be much more acceptable.
As opposed to, say, all those expressways that recover their own operating and capital costs? Listen to how suburbanites and their politicians talk: It's always "subsidizing" transit and "investing" in roadbuilding, when the reality is the exact reverse.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'll give you the Baltimore anti-rail spin:
"It will bring criminals to our neighborhoods"
Yeah, sure. They'll boost your property, carry it to the Light Rail, wait for a train (proposed 15 minute headways).
Answer: No, they'll do what they always do: Steal a car, drive to your neighborhood, steal what they want, and leave. - via the Beltway, where 15 minutes puts you 15 miles away.
What actually happened was that petty crime (shoplifting, assaults, etc.) did increase slightly around stations. The MTA did subsidize the increased police (city & counties) presence around stops, MTA police patrols were increased. The crime went back to "regular" levels.
When the levels went back to pre-Light Rail levels, the media stopped reporting it.
I think people are against mass transit because they don't want to use it, so they don't want to be bothered by it.
They don't want to be hemmed in with other people. They want to be by themselves, in their own car, away from other people. Similarly, they want to live in a detached house, not a rowhouse or apartment, and want their own backyard, not a public park.
In short, most of the U.S. tends toward the privacy end of the privacy vs. community tradeoff in lifestyle. You can't stick a transit system into an overall environment like the post-war U.S. and have it cover more than a small fraction of its costs.
Now how has transit been sold to such people? Build it, and the OTHER GUY will use it, leaving more room on the road for you.
Keep in mind the history of suburban sprawl. Sprawl as a phenomenon came about after WWII, at the height of the power of the auto and oil industries. To ensure widespread auto use and fuel consumption, these industries engaged in (1) bribing federal officials to implement the Interstate Highway System under the guise of national "defense"; (2) buying urban trolley and bus systems, and then closing them; and (3) hiring developers to build low-density housing far from city centers.
In other words, for 50 years people have been suckered into "loving" their cars.
BTW, General Motors was convicted of item (2) under the Sherman Anti-trust Act in the 1950's; the fine was about $1,000.
The Interstate Highway System was one of the greatest developing forces in our country's history. The national defense "guise" was included merely as a way of justifying federal funding, without worrying about the constitution.
Right - The Interstate Highway System was a federally-funded gift to the auto and oil industries, to ensure widespread auto use and fuel consumption. That was its ONLY purpose.
If any thought had been given to transportation as a way to move PEOPLE and GOODS (rather than just CARS and TRUCKS), then there would have been a real National Transportation System, incorporating all modes into a cohesive whole. It would have built on the inherent strengths of each mode, rather than destroying one in order to subsidize another.
The purpose was to make road travel across the country easier. Road travel is much better than rail travel. No need to adhere to an arbitrary Railroad terminal, the ability to leave the highway and go ANYWHERE. And the free use of the roads without complex arrangements and deals with railroad companies. No interstate project destroyed a major rail line. The railroads died because they failed to compete with the more superior roads.
"Free use of the roads" means free to the user, because government subsidizes the highways and their users to the max, by paying for road maintenance and keeping car and fuel prices artificially low.
Yet road users begrudge transit users any similar subsidy (or even a small percentage thereof), which gets us back to the topic.
Why the funding disparity? Because roads mean profits for the auto and oil industries, and transit does not. Because most road users are white suburbanites, and most transit users are not.
Road funding comes from gas taxes, which are paid only by road user. They also come from property taxes because EVERYONE benefits from roads. Not so for rail.
I think you are missing an important point.
1) Road were built with tax dollars are are exempt from property taxes. The massive cost of the land they occupy and the taxes someone would pay on it is the greatest subsidy: it goes on year after year.
2) Railroads were built with private dollars and pay property taxes. The government imposed regulations to make them serve unprofitable routes, on the grounds that they were a monopoly, and kept the regulations when the monopoly ended.
3) Prevented from raising rates by regulation, the railroads tried to stay profitable by cutting investment, allowing themselves to fall apart. Some times the intentionally tore up tracks to cut the value of their property, so property taxes would fall.
In short, railroad regulation and government built roads did for the transportation system what rent regulation and insured mortgages did for the housing stock.
Could things have been different? You'd probably have more parkways, fewer interstates, and most freight would move by rail before reaching its final delivery by truck. Driving would be for fun, not for everyday needs or long distance shipping. The passenger rail industry probably would have lost out to driving and airplanes in any event, but might have kept more of the mid-range market.
With subsidized road construction down and railroads deregulated, things are moving in that direction now.
Maybe "everyone" benefits from roads. Since that is a standard all-money-for-highways-none-for-transit claim, I won't ask for any supporting arguments. However, I must differ with your implied (and unstated) suggestion that only rail users benefit from a rail system.
If a rail system diverts motorists from a road, then, by definition, ALL remaining motorists on that road (plus anybody living alongside the road) MUST benefit from the resultant reduction in congestion and particulate emissions.
In oversimplified terms, suppose that I am a regular user of the Long Island Expressway. Each additional motorist who uses the LIE at the same time slows me down, which gets on my nerves and increases wear and tear on my car. This represents a cost to me. Suppose I can quantify that cost as, say, 5 cents. Now I know that each other user out there costs me 5-cents-worth of personal stress and auto maintenance.
If a rail line were to be built (or expanded), which could divert some of these other users away from the LIE, my life would become easier and less stressful. I would benefit INDIRECTLY (i.e. without actually using the rail line).
IN FACT, since each other existing road user already costs me 5 cents, it would be worth my while to pay each of them up to 4 cents to NOT be on the road. In other words, since road users WOULD benefit from the rail system, they should be asked to foot a little of the bill.
I agree. I have an equal right to drive my car. If I surrender my share of the road and take transit, I'm entitled to rent in the form of good transit. In NY, if everyone drove, no one would want to. That's my view.
"The railroads died because they failed to compete with the more superior roads."
Actually the railroads died because they failed to compete with the airlines. The airlines are still very strong even with the interstate highway system.
Oh yes, how could I forget that? But freight railroads were more killed by interstates, not airlines.
But are freight railroads really dead. Maybe in the NY metropolitan area. But if you travel out of town you can see freight trains all over the country.
Freight traffic is booming in Chicago, so much so that the congestion on the frieght lines is interfering with Metra commuter rail operations and as well as highway traffic in areas that have grade crossings.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Freight traffic isn't booming, its only booming relitive to the current system. Freight traffic today is only a fraction of what it was 50 years ago. Even thought the economy was smaller virtually ALL freight moved by train. Almost every town had some sort of rail connection and a freight station. If you want to get a ture feeling of what the rail system used to be like take the current system and multiply by 2. Since 1960 about 1/2 the railroad infrastructure has been ripped out. 4 tracks become 2, 2 track become 1, single tracks become run down and branch lines disappear. Back in the day almost everything was signaled, almost every railroad had a 4 track main somewhere on its system, every town had a station and every junction had a manned interlocking tower. The resond for todays congestion is that they ripped out too much and the steady growth of the economy has caught up with capasity. The only problem is that today with stuff like labour laws and property value new railraod construction will A) take forever and B) cost too much. So the loss to rail freight to trucks caused a general industry downsizing that the rail industry will never recover from.
its easy to see this fact if you take Jersery Transit you see spurs going off behind every factory that are all grown over and haven't been use din years, rail traffic in this area is way way down part because the shipping into the port around here is way down....
[re decline of freight rail]
[its easy to see this fact if you take Jersery Transit you see spurs going off behind every factory that are all grown over and haven't been use din years, rail traffic in this area is way way down part because the shipping into the port around here is way down....]
Freight rail hasn't so much declined as changed. In years past, most of the traffic was point-to-point, say from a factory to a warehouse. Today the focus is much more on intermodal traffic, trailer on flat car (TOFC) and container on flat car (COFC). Trucks are used at either end of the journey but not for the long stretches in between. Let's say a factory in New Jersey is shipping products to a distribution warehouse in Texas. It's less likely today that a boxcar will be loaded right at the factory. That's why the factory might have one of those abandoned sidings you see from NJ Transit. Instead, semitrailer trucks will load at the factory and go to the local intermodal yard. At the yard, the trailers will be lifted onto flat cars and will travel by rail to another intermodal yard in Texas. There, the process will be carried out in reverse, with the trailers being hauled by truck to the warehouse. COFC shipping is somewhat similar, with the containers being offloaded from ships onto flatcars, and taken to intermodal yards near their destinations for final delivery by truck.
Let's say a factory in New Jersey is shipping products to a distribution warehouse in Texas...
And more likely than not, it will probably pass through Chicago along the way.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[The railroads died because they failed to compete with the more superior roads.]
One important factor is often overlooked by people who claim that the Interstate highway system caused the decline and fall of passenger rail. Although Congress first proposed the system in 1944, the first section of Interstate didn't open until 1956 or 1957 (IIRC, a section of I-70 in Missouri). It wasn't until the early 1960s that enough of the system was open for it to be a usable transportation network on a nationwide basis. The point is that passenger rail was in decline by 1956/57, let alone the early 1960s. You might say that the Interstate system at best hastened the end of passenger rail. It certainly didn't cause passenger rail to collapse.
The post-WWII car boom started the decline of intercity passenger rail, just as the introduction of jet air travel in 1958 sounded the death knell for trans-Atlantic passenger ships. People began driving cars more, the cars themselves became more comfortable and faster, which helped the exodus from the inner city that Mr. Levitt and other home builders took advantage of.
Once out on Long Island (or west of Chicago, Bucks County, Pa., the San Fernando Valley or wherever) the homeowners started demanding improved roads to get them back into the city to go to work, so Eisenhower's Interstate proposal met with wide support. Also back then everyone followed Bob Moses' idea that if you just build one more highway, that will solve all the traffic problems. We know better now, which is one reason why mass transit has come back some since its depths 20 years ago.
Yes, but even Robert Moses, who is regarded by some as a "visionary," clearly understood that building "one more highway" would not truly SOLVE any problems, but rather would only MOVE the problem to a different place or a later time. WE know better now, but HE knew better then.
And now the folks in Ruxton-Riderwood are begging Gov. Glendening and the MTA for a station. BWA-HA-HA-HA! Let the yuppie scum drive to Lutherville...I happen to love that long hop north of Falls Rd.
BTW, what do you think will happen with light rail now that Hunt Valley Mall (less than 20 years old) is being torn down?
This sounds familiar. The 708'ers out in Schaumburg have been making noises about wanting the CTA Blue Line extended to their little corner of the world.
What cracks me up is that places like Schaumburg came into being because of people who decided that they were too good to live in the big bad city. Now they've decided that they have too much traffic on their expressways, and would like a more convenient way to make their once-a-year trip into the city for the Taste of Chicago. I guess the price of parking a sport utility vehicle in the Loop for a day finally became more than they could handle.
Of course, it's all under the guise of allowing inner-city workers to travel to their jobs of pushing brooms at Woodfield Mall. Well no shit, since anybody who pushes a broom at Woodfiled Mall for a living can't afford to actually live in Schaumburg, because the city has deliberately priced itself out of the range of such people.
And then they can't figure out why us folks in the city despise them so much. At least we're not the ones who packed up and fled to the 'burbs when a family with darker skin than ours moved into the neighborhood.
I say screw 'em. If the folks of Schaumburg want the benefits of city life, they should at least be willing to share in the responsibility of making the city a better place by living here, working here and paying taxes here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[What cracks me up is that places like Schaumburg came into being because of people who decided that they were too good to live in the big bad city. Now they've decided that they have too much
traffic on their expressways, and would like a more convenient way to make their once-a-year trip into the city for the Taste of Chicago. I guess the price of parking a sport utility vehicle in the Loop
for a day finally became more than they could handle.
Of course, it's all under the guise of allowing inner-city workers to travel to their jobs of pushing brooms at Woodfield Mall. Well no shit, since anybody who pushes a broom at Woodfiled Mall for a living can't afford to actually live in Schaumburg, because the city has deliberately priced itself out of the range of such people.
And then they can't figure out why us folks in the city despise them so much. At least we're not the ones who packed up and fled to the 'burbs when a family with darker skin than ours moved into the
neighborhood.]
It sounds like you're being a bit unfair to the residents of Schaumburg and suburbanites in general. Surely not all of them, or anything close to all, moved out of Chicago, or other cities if you're talking about suburbs in general, due to fears of racial change. Mass suburbanization is a rather venerable phenomenon by now. Many suburbs throughout the country are well within their second or even third generation of residents. In some cases, people whose parents or grandparents moved to inner ring suburbs in the postwar years are now themselves moving to more distant suburbs. Based on what little I know about the area, I suspect that's the case with Schaumburg. Whatever the case, by and large you're not dealing with "urban refugees."
And let's not forget that people move to suburbs for many reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with racial fears (not to mention the fact that more and more suburbanites are nonwhite themselves). The desire for a house and yard of one's own, in a lower-density neighborhood, is one of those things that's deeply ingrained in most people of all races. Sure, many people prefer the urban lifestyle, which is fine for them, but that's not the most common way, at least not in the United States.
Proximity to jobs is another big reason why many people prefer suburban living. More and more jobs are found in the suburbs today, and once again this isn't a new phenomenon. Reverse commuting from cities is usually difficut if not downright impossible. You can hardly blame people for wanting to live closer to their jobs. And lastly, suburban living tends to be quite convenient in most areas. I live in a fairly distant Long Island suburb, over 60 miles from Manhattan. Yet it's not remote by any means. We're within 15 to 20 minutes of a major shopping mall, 10 minutes of a variety of big-box superstores, five minutes of a couple supermarkets, and so on. And I doubt this convenience is at all atypical for suburbs today. You won't find it in many cities.
[I live in a fairly distant Long Island suburb, over 60 miles from Manhattan. Yet it's not remote by any means. We're within 15 to 20 minutes of a major shopping mall, 10 minutes of a variety of big-box superstores, five minutes of a couple supermarkets, and so on. And I doubt this convenience is at all atypical for suburbs today. You won't find it in many cities. ]
Your claim that this is desirable is ludicrous. Your super stores, super markets and super malls not only lack character but are destroying whatever character may have existed in your area (although I doubt any ever did). You can forget about ever having a mom and pop store, that's for sure. You claim convenience by being within a 20 minute drive of all these places. Driving is never a convenience. You may think you're enjoying the drive to your mall but studies have shown that even when I driver considers himself relaxed he is actually in a high state of tension. Driving racks the nerves! Not only that but if you can't afford a car or are too young to drive one you're stuck. That's hardly convenient. Meanwhile, in the city, I can run down the stairs of my apartment and within one block I have a grocery store, a fruitstand, a newstand, a movie theater, a barber shop, a hair salon, a laundrymat, a pizza place, a Japanese restaurant, a falafel shop, a subway stop, 2 bus stops, a billiards place, a quite a few friends. That's what I call convenience.
[[I live in a fairly distant Long Island suburb, over 60 miles from Manhattan. Yet it's not remote by any means. We're within 15 to 20 minutes of a major shopping mall, 10 minutes of a variety of big-box superstores, five minutes of a couple supermarkets, and so on. And I doubt this convenience is at all atypical for suburbs today. You won't find it in many cities.]
[Your claim that this is desirable is ludicrous. Your super stores, super markets and super malls not only lack character but are
destroying whatever character may have existed in your area (although I doubt any ever did). You can forget about ever having a mom and pop store, that's for sure. You claim convenience by being within a 20 minute drive of all these places. Driving is never a convenience. You may think you're enjoying the drive to your mall but studies have shown that even when I driver considers himself relaxed he is actually in a high state of tension. Driving racks the nerves! Not only that but if you can't afford a car or are too young to drive one you're stuck. That's hardly convenient. Meanwhile, in the city, I can run down the stairs of my apartment and within one block I have a grocery store, a fruitstand, a newstand, a movie theater, a barber shop, a hair salon, a laundrymat, a pizza place, a Japanese restaurant, a falafel shop, a subway stop, 2 bus stops, a billiards place, a quite a few friends. That's what I call convenience.]
I'm sorry to have to break this news to you, but the Nineteenth Century is over ... well, outside of New York it's over. Like it or not, superstores and supermarkets are a fact of life today. And you know what? I think that's terrific. Dunno about you, but I like the ability to shop in large, well-stocked stores with reasonable prices and ample parking right in front. And I really don't give a flying [deleted] about the demise of the "friendly" neighborhood store. While I'm a long way from Social Security, I'm old enough to remember many places like that. Maybe it's just my memory, but I don't have fond recollections of the kindly old shopkeepers. What I do remember are cramped stores with high prices and limited hours. That's just what you'll find in NYC today, although now you'll usually get hostile employees to boot. Sorry, but I'll take today's superstores, and so will most people in the country - except in NYC, but that's to be expected because the city is _different_ (or thinks it is).
Now, lest I be misinterpreted, this is not some anti-transit diatribe. Transit certainly has its purposes, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that driving can be a royal pain. But it is ludicrous to expect that the transit solutions which work pretty well in NYC and other large cities can be made to work in suburban areas. Without urban densities, transit is a near-useless money pit. I can see that very easily in Suffolk County, every time a Suffolk Transit bus goes by. If a bus has as many as three or four passengers, it's a remarkable sight. Quite frequently they're empty.
In the suburbs, new superstores are driving old chain stores and strip malls out of business. Their buildings are being re-leased, at knock down prices, to the kind of diverse businesses NYC used to have.
In NYC, where communities are "protected" from new commercial space, it is in short supply, and rents are soaring, driving any stores not catering to the "too-wealthy-to-care-what-it-costs" crowd out of business. Recently, I heard of a store in Park Slope that closed because the landlord wanted $11,000 per month for an 1,800 square foot space.
[I like the ability to shop in large, well-stocked stores with reasonable prices and ample parking right in front. ]
You are too easily brainwashed by television commercials (how many hours of tv a day do you watch?). No clear-headed thinker likes these ugly behemoths surrounded by their vast expanses of expressionless concrete. Not only do these monoliths contribute to the decline of our environment but they are also the root cause of our distraught youth. These shopping mall youths must rely on often absent parents to take them anywhere thereby causing these youths to become isolated and anti-social and even violent. Your selfish paradise is causing countless hells for the children of America.
Large new stores cause poverty too. Low prices allow people to be working class or poor and still live well. In contrast, if you limit commercial activities to botiques and gourmet stores, you force people to stop being poor and ignorant, thereby eradicating poverty and improving the culture.
More importantly, since most of those who shop at stores where goods like toilet paper, diapers and peanut butter are sold in large sizes are families with children, keeping them out improves the gene pool by making it more expensive for the inferior people to breed.
For that reason, we should also eliminate gauche "big transit," and put something classier -- at a $5 per ride price in its place.
A Treatise Supporting the Mass Destruction of the Suburbs
by Michele Deniken
I don't agree 100% with what the author says...
...but 95% would be pretty close. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
THATS WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ( NOT JUST LOS ANGELES )
Made my day!
Thanks,
Andee
As someone who has made a conscious, analytical decision to live in a rowhouse in Brooklyn, yes I think its a better enviornment to live my way and raise my children.
But some of the anti-suburb rhetoric going around these days is just as extreme and some of the ant-city rhetoric of the 1950s. It's ridiculous.
I have a Ford Advertizement from life magazine in the 1950s, showing (on one page) how the unhealthy and depressed (beaten down) neighborhoods of the city led to children growing up bad. But now, the other page says, there is an "escape to the greenbelt" where children can be raised in a happy and moral environment. Ford makes this possible, it says.
Perhaps ridiculous anti-suburb rhetoric is just fair play, but we don't have to believe it.
02/09/2000
Sounds like she's having a PMS fit !
Bill Newkirk
Actually, a lot of her comments can just as easily be twisted 180 degrees around. Sofa you can't sit on? Only one of my relatives ever fit that category, and they lived in a big old house in the city - only ones rich enough to have a formal living room as well as a family sitting room!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, my favorite line is:
>>>>The suburbs is young newlyweds who dream of buying a house so they can feel that they own something, but soon enough, the house owns them, and soon enough they spend Saturdays at Home Depot, buying wood protector for their deck, though no one ever comes to visit. <<<
I have a friend who spent 27 years of his life in Greenpoint, and the next 15 in Park Slope. Then, he got married. Off to Cold Spring Harbor they went, and I haven't seen 'em since...he says 'as soon as we have the house ready'.
www.forgotten-ny.com
To anyone who dislikes the changes that suburbia and the malls have wreaked on the USA, I recommend two books by urban planner James Kunstler (no relation to the commie lawyer): The Geography Of Nowhere and Home From Nowhere.
Although he hasn't been talking about it lately, Al Gore (whom I otherwise distrust) has spoken about the malling and sprawling of America in the past.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The only thing worse than a massive enclosed mall out in the suburbs is a massive enclosed mall in the middle of downtown. One can argue that the suburbs, even the sprawling plastic wastelands like Chicago's Schaumburg and Naperville, have their place in today's society. But what is indefensible is when downtowns attempt to fight back by turning themselves into exactly what they are trying to fight.
One of my favorite books that deals with this topic is City: Rediscovering the Center by William H. Whyte. The primary focus of this book is how the physical design of streets, sidewalks and public spaces impacts the quality of life in urban business districts. Most of the book is focused on New York, although he cites examples of many other cities as well. He also has chapters that deal with suburban sprawl and urban gentrification, and his exhaustive research turns a number of popular misconceptions on their heads.
Here's an exceprt from Chapter 22, "How to Dullify Downtown":
The lines are getting blurred. Suburban office centers are imitating the center city. The center city is imitating suburban office parks. This may be overstating the point but a real question is being posed. Where will the center go? There are two contrary trends. On one hand there are cities that are tightening up their downtown, reinforcing the role of the street, and in general reasserting the dominance of the center. But a growing number are going in the opposite direction. They are loosening up the structure; gearing it more toward the car; taking the pedestrian off the street, and retailing too. They are doing almost everything, indeed, to eliminate the structured advantages of the center city they inherited.
As a way of distinguishing which camp a city is in, I have prepared a checklist of eight questions. No one city scores yes on all eight, but quite a number score high. Conversely, some cities score very low. There seems to be a strong tendancy to go decisively in one direction or the other.
1. Was much of downtown successfully razed under urban renewal?
2. Is at least half of downtown devoted to parking?
3. Have municipal and county offices been relocated to a campus?
4. Have streets been de-mapped for superblock developments?
5. Have the developments included an enclosed shopping mall?
6. Have they been linked together with skyways?
7. Have they been linked together with underground concourses?
8. Is an automated people-mover system being planned?
The higher the score, the more likely the city is to be one that has lost its ego, its sense of pride of place, its awareness of where it has come from and where it is going. It is a city with so little assurance that it is prey to what could be billed as bold new approaches, and to architectural acrobatics of all kinds.
Unfortunately, the book appears to be out of print at this time, but I highly recommend it. So if you see it at Strand or elsewhere, be sure to pick it up. Paperback version is only about $15 new.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>1. Was much of downtown successfully razed under urban renewal?
2. Is at least half of downtown devoted to parking?
3. Have municipal and county offices been relocated to a campus?
4. Have streets been de-mapped for superblock developments?
5. Have the developments included an enclosed shopping mall?
6. Have they been linked together with skyways?
7. Have they been linked together with underground concourses?
8. Is an automated people-mover system being planned? <<<<
NYC scores high on many of these. It can't be called Mallville USA, though. In most cases when NYC streets have been demapped, as in the Lower East Side, it was to construct acres and acres of housing projects. The worth of those is another topic altogether and strays far from transit....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Luckily for New York, the sheer scale of the city is such that one bad development will not sap the life out of Manhattan. Small and medium-sized cities are most vulnerable, since their downtowns are small enough that a single enclosed mall or other superblock development can be a death blow to the rest of the business district.
Jacksonville, Florida is a good example... With the exception of the skywalks and underground concourses, the city scores yes on every question. The truly sad part is that at one point in Jacksonville's history, it had a thriving downtown and some excellent home-grown architecture. Now, with the exception of a few mediocre high-rises, an unprofitable festival marketplace and a lot of boarded up storefronts, their downtown is almost entirely devoted to parking. Of course, the #1 reason people give in surveys for not going downtown is the "lack of parking." Go figure.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like Downtown Montreal, which I thought was great.
Peter, we usually agree but in this case, I have to say that the rise of the malls has made for a characterless suburbia. In Nassau County, the south shore is Mallville, USA, while the north shore (to be sure, it's a lot richer) has retained more of its character.
I too prefer the neighborhood mom and pop store. I worked in Nassau County between 1992 and 1999 and while I marveled at the sheer scope of what's available at a typical suburban King Kullen, I developed no love for the malls, with their sprawling parking lots and sidewalkless property. Gimme the Korean guy on the corner any day....
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I have to say that the rise of the malls has made for a characterless suburbia. In Nassau County, the south shore is Mallville, USA, while the north shore (to be sure, it's a lot richer) has retained more of its character.]
A mix of retailing seems to be the key. While I may be a fan of malls and superstores, I am not an enemy of traditional downtowns. They serve their purposes, just as do the malls and the big boxes. And there's no inherent reason why all of these retailing types can't co-exist.
Where I disagree with the anti-mall crowd is in blaming the malls and superstores for the death or decline of some downtowns. I believe that periods of local economic weakness and the influx of the poor killed off more downtowns than mall competition. Economically thriving areas can support healthy downtowns even with superstores and malls out on the highway. Economically weak areas cannot.
Another point deals with the benefits of a mix of retail. In an ideal situation, customers should have a reasonably convenient choice of malls, superstores, downtowns and small neighborhood stores. Granted, that's not true everywhere; in some parts of Long Island, in particular, only the first two types are available in any abundance. But the situation's even worse when the malls and superstores are kept out, and people are forced to patronize the neighborhood stores - which, given the lack of competition, are likely to be expensive, dirty and poorly stocked. Can you say "Manhattan supermarkets?" Or how about "Brooklyn?"
"sprawling parking lots and sidewalkless property"
I don't know why some people on this board (and I'm responding to them all, not just you particularly) think that there are only two models for urban retailing, with no options inbetween: either tiny and expensive "mom-and-pop" stores with a miserable selection of goods and indifferent service or ugly "big box" stores with a huge display sign, offset from the street and surrounded by an enormous parking lot just like in the suburbs.
At least here in Chicago, there are real honest-to-Betsy supermarkets in densely-populated neighborhoods that are built right up to the sidewalk and have little or no street parking. I can think of at least four just off the top of my head: a Jewel/Osco at Clark and Division next to a subway entrance, a Treasure Island at the same intersection, a Dominicks at Fullerton and Sheffield next to an L station, and a Treasure Island on North near LaSalle. As the locations and the proximity to rapid transit shows, all these stores are in areas with high population density and very little on-street parking where many people don't even own a car, like Manhattan.
Walgreens is a drug-store chain here in Chicago that has always had city locations but has been particularly expanding as of late into denser neighborhoods, including new downtown locations. Walgreens is working with the city regarding design and has been building locations that are pedestrian-friendly and with smaller parking lots to the side or back of the store. The downtown locations are parking-less, of course, and are located in the first floor of existing office buildings.
Also, there are several other large chain stores that have moved into old (and long-empty) neighborhood department store locations or into new buildings made to look like old department stores. No acres of parking, obviously.
Isn't there a K-mart in an old department store in Manhattan? K-mart locations in the suburbs and outer parts of the city are universally the typical huge-parking-lot stores with enormous tacky K-MART signs that are totally inappropriate for urban neighborhoods. Yet K-mart management didn't blindly insist on such a "one size fits all" store when it came to Manhattan.
And speaking of department stores, what ARE major department stores -- Macy's and Bloomingdales in New York, Marshall Fields and Carson Pirie Scott in Chicago, Filene's in Boston, Strawbridge and Clothier's and Wanamaker's in Philadelphia -- but a 19th Century form of the big box retailer, just built to the curb and without parking? Or are they not "soul-less" because they're old, a sort of reverse statute of limitations?
So, given that large-scale retailing in urban areas should be built -- and has (at least in recent years) been built -- to be compatible with the pedestrian orientation and the architecture of such areas, what else about it makes it so "soul-less" and "character-less" compared to the saintly corner bodega or to Macy's??
[At least here in Chicago, there are real honest-to-Betsy supermarkets in densely-populated neighborhoods that are built right up to the sidewalk and have little or no street parking. I can think of at least four just off the top of my head: a Jewel/Osco at Clark and Division next to a subway entrance, a Treasure Island at the same intersection, a Dominicks at Fullerton and Sheffield next to an L station, and a Treasure Island on North near LaSalle. As the locations and the proximity to rapid transit shows, all these stores are in areas with high population density and very little on-street parking where many people don't even own a car, like Manhattan.]
But that's Chicago. We were talking about New York. Apples and oranges, you know.
I don't pretend to know precisely why New York has such a bias against large stores. As you noted elsewhere in the thread, Chicago isn't that way, so I doubt the explanation lies in some universal trait found in large cities. My best guess is that New York's bias results from bribery on the part of small-store owners, the sheer stupidity of the City Council's members, and most of all from that pervasive belief that New York Is Different. I'm referring to the wholly idiotic attitude that the normal rules of society, economics, and culture, if not the laws of physics, don't apply within city limits. In other words, many New Yorkers look at the spread of superstores and supermarkets elsewhere in the country, and decide that they've got to be different because this is New York. While I classify this belief on a level with Roswell aliens and Elvis-is-alive, it's all too pervasive in the city. And millions of New Yorkers suffer when they pay inflated prices for inferior merchandise.
You should be thankful that the people in Chicago aren't as ignorant as New Yorkers.
[Walgreens is a drug-store chain here in Chicago that has always had city locations but has been particularly expanding as of late
into denser neighborhoods, including new downtown locations.]
Rite-Aid and CVS recently have opened a number of large Walgreen-style drug stores in New York. Walgreens itself is more or less restricted to the suburbs. IIRC, Rite-Aid and CVS have taken advantage of a loophole in the zoning code that allows them to open city stores, just like Home Depot has done.
[Isn't there a K-mart in an old department store in Manhattan? K-mart locations in the suburbs and outer parts of the city are
universally the typical huge-parking-lot stores with enormous tacky K-MART signs that are totally inappropriate for urban neighborhoods. Yet K-mart management didn't blindly insist on such a "one size fits all" store when it came to Manhattan.]
You're correct. K-Mart opened a store a couple of years ago in the old Wanamaker's store near Astor Place. They opened another store next to Penn Station at about the same time. I doubt they will be opening any more, as I've heard that neither store is terribly profitable.
[I don't pretend to know precisely why New York has such a bias against large stores. As you noted elsewhere in the thread, Chicago isn't that way, so I doubt the explanation lies in some universal trait found in large cities.]
Actually Chicago and other large US cities are the exception, not New York. So the explanation that is needed is why do these large US cities allow themselves to be destroyed from the inside? The rest of the world (ex: Toronto, Buenos Aires, London, Paris) have thriving city centers based on the small-store model. New York is different because it is one of the only International Cities in the US. That is, it is a city based on the more viable and sustainable International Model of Urban Development.
[My best guess is that New York's bias results from bribery on the part of small-store owners]
Small-store owners can't even come close to amassing the kind of political money capable of the monstrous corporations.
[I'm referring to the wholly idiotic attitude that the normal rules of society, economics, and culture, if not the laws of physics, don't apply within city limits.]
Another example of your brainwashing. In fact, the suburbs are not normal. They are unsustainable and cancerous, especially in the face of global population growth. The normal rules of society, economics, and culture if defined at the majority level are much closer to New York's model than the rest of the country. Think Globally, don't be blinded by your suburban jail.
See what us City Planners have to put up with? Wealthy people who try to dictate their tastes on us phillistines, not to mention the poor slobs who can barely afford toilet paper as it is. It's the new liberal poverty reduction program -- raise the cost of living high enough and limit the number of low wage jobs, and no one will be able to afford to be poor.
Just so happens that we received 1997 census of retail trade just this afternoon (yes, it does take three years). It is tabulated under the new North American Industry Classification system -- restaurants are no longer combined with stores.
The U.S. averaged about $9,000 in retail sales per capita. The figures for the outer boroughs? Bronx $2,800, Brooklyn $3,500, Queens $4,400 -- the three lowest in New York State. Much higher for the suburbs outside the city, especially for those right on the border.
Now some of this is accounted for by lower incomes, but not much. Some of it is accounted for by auto sales. I'll have to take out auto and put the data per $million of income rather than per capita to adjust, as I have in the past. But the bottom line will still be, as in 1992, 1987, 1982, etc. New Yorkers shopping in the suburbs.
You want to ban all stores over 2,000 square feet -- and close all exisitng such stores, from the suburban Walmarts to Macys Herald Square, then fine. As it is, if they are going to locate anywhere, I'd rather have them in the city, accessible by transit (for the workers more than the customers) and paying taxes to provide service for me.
Ban stores over 2000 square feet? Well, there goes the little downtown hobby shop I'm involved with - it's got 2200.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That Wanamaker's store at Astor place must have been rebuilt after the infamous 1956 fire and resulting "Wanamaker's Washout" of the IRT trackbed there.
Regarding the stores you mention here in Chicago, I think the thing that makes them as non-intrusive as they are is the fact that they blend in well enough with the surrounding neighborhoods. The best example of this would be the new Dominick's at Sheffield and Fullerton right next to the L stop. It works well for a number of reasons:
1) The store is on two floors, plus another floor for the stock room and service areas. This cuts down the required footprint of the building by two-thirds.
2) The building comes right up to the property line, maintaining the pedestrian scale of the neighborhood. (Contrast this with the small strip mall diagonally across the street, which greets pedestrians with a huge parking lot.)
3) The Dominck's store has large windows all along the sidewalk, allowing people to see into and out of the store, as opposed to putting a huge blank wall on the sidewalk.
4) The building has a variety of uses that allow it to generate activity 24 hours a day: The Dominick's store which is open 24 hours, student residences for DePaul University on the floors above, and a parking garage adjacent to the store.
5) The building is mostly brick, which fits in well with the surrounding context of the other nearby buildings.
Hats off to Dominick's and DePaul University for demonstrating that it is possible for large stores to fit well within existing urban neighborhoods.
The opposite end of the spectrum would probably be represented by those banal strip malls on Clybourn Avenue, or that hideous monstrosity at the corner of Clark and Halsted which houses Linens & Things, Marshall's and a huge parking garage. I think the prospect of examples like that are what most people in New York are so horrified by, and they should be horrified.
To take the Clark & Halsted example, the developers of that building leveled an entire city block to construct a prefabricated box that utterly saps the life out of its surrounding streets and sidewalks. Five-story blank walls cover every side of the building, and the only windows are at the small entrances on either side. To add insult to injury, the architects make a feeble attempt at tying the building into its context by placing a glass elevator inside a garish circular element at the corner. This building appears as if it was mistakenly built at the wrong adress after missing its intended destintation of Gurnee Mills.
If this is the type of development New Yorkers are steadfastly opposed to, then I say more power to them. It's a sad commentary on Chicago when we lay down and allow our neighborhoods to be raped in this fashion.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[Regarding the stores you mention here in Chicago, I think the thing that makes them as non-intrusive as they are is the fact that they blend in well enough with the surrounding neighborhoods. The best example of this would be the new Dominick's at Sheffield and Fullerton right next to the L stop.
(interesting description of how the store is well suited to its neighborhood)
The opposite end of the spectrum would probably be represented by those banal strip malls on Clybourn Avenue, or that hideous monstrosity at the corner of Clark and Halsted which houses Linens & Things, Marshall's and a huge parking garage. I think the prospect of examples like that are what most people in New York are so horrified by, and they should be horrified.]
I keep thinking of the old expression "throwing the baby out with the bath water." New York's zoning and land-use rules indeed will keep out ugly places like the Clark and Halsted monstrosity. So far so good. But the bad news is that these rules also would exclude perfectly appropriate stores like the Dominick's at Sheffield and Fullerton.
I'm really SICK of people touting the "advantages" of the mom and pop stores as opposed to the big boxes. If the Mom and pops were so good, they'd be able to compete with the more superior big boxes, as opposed to folding out. The only people who support the blocking of big boxes in New York City are the subhumans in the City Council (they certainly aren't Homo-Sapiens, "Wise Man") and the Mom and Pop lobby. The only bad thing I can say about suburbs is obviously longer commute and the immobility of people my age. Even people who have a license have to beg their parents for a car. I really don't care as I have no use for one. I live in what I consider to be a good blend of both worlds. The Manhattan Bridge excepted.
Ahh, yet another fallacy of suburbanism.
The truth is that the so-called "mom-and-pop" stores didn't simply die out; they were hunted down and killed by the mega-stores and the politicians who pander to them. Often literally, especially in the case of Wal-Mart.
When Wal-Mart, to take one example, decides to move into a given area, here is usually what happens:
1) Wal-Mart Corportation will take a thorough inventory of existing independent retailers within a given region, taking note of what they sell, how much they sell it for, etc.
2) Upon opening, the Wal-Mart stores will saturate the local market with goods and prices specifically selected to compete with the local independent retailers, based on their previous research. Most Wal-Mart stores undercut their prices so low that they actually operate at a loss for the first year or so of business, usually ample time to eliminate any local competition.
3) New stores will also hire far more staff than they need, partly to lure employees away from other retailers and also to overwhelm customers with artificially high levels of customer service.
4) Once most local competition is eliminated, a typical Wal-Mart store will then raise its prices by an average of 33% and lay off a significant portion of its staff.
5) In many cases, Wal-Mart will then shut down one or more of its own stores within a region, forcing customers to drive even further for basic goods.
What is left in its wake is a 200,000 square-foot empty shell of a store surrounded by 18-20 acres of asphalt, along with the corpse of a downtown business district that took generations to build and less than five years to destroy.
This is not free-market capitalism. This is rape and plunder. Unfortunately, this is fairly typical of most big boxes. And the truly sad part is that it has become so commonplace, most people have become brainwashed into believing that this is what they want.
This is not to say all national chains are evil; retailers like Sears, Penny's, and even newer chains like The Gap have managed to successfully integrate their stores into existing urban business districts without resorting to scorched-earth practices.
Companies like Wal-Mart are nothing more than predators who derive their profits only by means of the death and destruction of their competition. In another age, the feds would consider such actions a violation of anti-trust laws, but apparently this is no longer the case. It's not surprising, really, given the fact that Sam Walton was the largest contributer to the Clinton campaign, and that most politicians tent to represent suburban districts who reap the sales tax rewards of the big boxes. The Feds would much rather take on a much more politically vilified bogeyman such as Microsoft than going after the local Wal-Mart store where Aunt Gussie and Uncle Jeb buy their polyester slacks and kitty litter.
Recommended reading:
Cities Back From The Edge: New Life for Downtown by Roberta Brandes Gratz with Norma Mintz
City: Rediscovering the Center by William H. Whyte
The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs
Sierra Club Challenge to Sprawl Campaign
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nassau County has many more small stores, relative to the income of its population, than Brooklyn. And, of course, more large stores. Stopping something doesn't get you something else.
[Nassau County has many more small stores, relative to the income of its population, than Brooklyn. And, of course, more large stores. Stopping something doesn't get you something else.]
All this talk about superstores and malls vs. downtowns got me thinking about my home town - Waterbury, Connecticut, population about 100,000. Downtown Waterbury's clearly in a bad way today. It's not quite dead yet ... but if it were a person, his relatives would be urging him to make a living will. Waterbury didn't have many superstores or a large mall until the last couple of years, by which time downtown already was circling the drain. A small mall, since demolished, and a few strip malls (doesn't anyone call them "shopping plazas" anymore?) were built in the late 1960s, but didn't have much effect on downtown.
During the 1970s, in other words after the first phase of mall/plaza construction, Waterbury's industrial base nearly collapsed. Its three huge brass mills, which together had employed at least a third of the working population, shut down within a few years of one another. Many working-clas people fled Waterbury for greener pastures. At the same time, a major influx of poor, largely welfare-dependent people kept the city's population relatively stable. And it was in the late 1970's and early 1980's, just as deindustrialization really hit in full force and the influx of poor became a near-torrent, that downtown Waterbury began spiraling into the abyss.
I'd say we have an interesting cause-and-effect scenario before us. It surely looks as if downtown Waterbury suffered not because of mall/plaza development, but because the city lost so many of the people who could afford to shop. Downtown survived suburban-style shopping, but not the huge demographic and economic change that accompanied deindustrialization. And I have more than a suspicion that similar things have happened in many other places. When we lament the decline of traditional downtowns, we ought to look at economic factors, not necessarily at the number of strip malls and superstores in the area.
Peter, any signs of revival in Waterbury? I'm sure the city has some physical assets, and its in the richest state in the country -- one with a hugh labor shortage. Anyone from Waterbury who wants a job can take a train down to the I-95 corridor and get one.
[Peter, any signs of revival in Waterbury? I'm sure the city has some physical assets, and its in the richest state in the country -- one with a hugh labor shortage. Anyone from Waterbury who wants a job can take a train down to the I-95 corridor and get one.]
There are some signs, but nothing overwhelming. A large new mall opened a couple of years ago, along with some nearby big-box stores; talk about ironies, they were built on the site once occupied by the largest of the city's brass mills. Yet the site of the old mall remains vacant more than a year after its demolition. Several redevelopment plans, the most recent one involving a Lowe's home center, haven't gone anywhere. There has been no office construction to speak of and very little new industrial construction.
On a positive note, I get the impression that the rate of neighborhood deterioration has slowed down considerably. Waterbury still has some decent working-class neighborhoods. In that respect, it stands in quite some contrast to Hartford, New Haven and Bridgeport. Given the lack of any significant expansion in the local economy, except for relatively low-paying retail jobs, I would expect that many residents commute from Waterbury to jobs elsewhere in the state (heck, I commuted from Waterbury to Manhattan from 1993 to 1997!) 2000 census figures should be interesting.
Ah, the Brass City. I presume you commuted by train, no?
[Ah, the Brass City. I presume you commuted by train, no?]
Not all the way from Waterbury. The only evening rush hour train out of Grand Central doesn't get one into Waterbury until almost 9 pm, with a connection in Bridgeport. For most of the period, I drove into Westchester County and got the Metro-North Harlem line. That combination generally got me home about 7:15. I only went directly from Waterbury on a few occasions, usually during bad weather.
Finally, in early 1997 I got fed up with driving 50 miles into Westchester and then catching a train for an hour's ride, and I started taking the Bonanza bus directly from Waterbury. It was convenient but extremely expensive - close to $400 per month IIRC. After a few months of that, I solved the problem once and for all by getting married and moving to Long Island ... except now I'm at the mercies of the LIRR :-(
I've been driving 49 miles, one way, to work for 12 years. It still doesn't bother me. There's no traffic early in the morning, and it's usually not too bad in the afternoon. During that time, I have seen the Mousetrap (the I-25/I-70 junction) completely rebuilt and reconfigured; the I-25/I-76 junction rebuilt; HOV lanes added to I-25 heading north out of downtown; and now the Southwest light rail corridor being built. And it's kept my Jeep's engine young and oiltight even with it approaching 385,000 miles.
P. S. I'm still happily single.
[I've been driving 49 miles, one way, to work for 12 years. It still doesn't bother me.]
Long distance driving usually doesn't bother me either. What became intolerable about my former commuting pattern from Waterbury was driving 50 miles each way and THEN having to spend an hour on the train. There was something about the two phases of my trip to work that made it very difficult to take. A longer, single-phase trip would've been easier.
Connecticut may be the richest state in the country (and other states, such as Texas, California and New Jersey have made the same claim), but it has:
Many depressed older industrialized cities: Bridgeport, Hartford, New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury;
Many wealthy 'old money' towns: Greenwich, New Canaan, Danbury, Madison, Guilford;
Many cities that have rough sections, but also have revitalized other sections: Stamford, Norwalk, New London.
In other words, it's just like every other state in the country. 'Rich' states can have 'poor' cities and vice versa.
Then there's New Britain and the Stanley Works.
[Then there's New Britain and the Stanley Works.]
New Britain's not too bad a place. It has some rough sections (what city of 75,000 doesn't?), but all in all is a decent city.
Your mention of New Britain made me think of that thread concerning Robert Moses and his alleged destruction of the Bronx. The building of Connecticut routes 9 and 72 through New Britain (late 1960's - early 1970's) caused, in relative and maybe even absolute terms, FAR more extensive neighborhood destruction than anything resulting from the Cross-Bronx Expressway. One of my vivid childhood memories is riding in the car with my mother through New Britain after the completion of the condemnation phase but before the start of actual construction. It was truly an awesome and maybe even disturbing sight, block after block of debris-filled lots. Yet New Britain survived. The fact that parts of the Bronx didn't, means to me that more factors were involved beyond the Cross-Bronx's construction.
Oops, I mentioned Danbury twice. That should be DARIEN as one of the wealthy 'old money' towns.
Wal Mart hasn't made inroads in NYC. Do they intend to? Have we succeeded in fending them off or have they yet to mount a beachhead?
It's rather doubtful that Wal-Mart would attempt to move into the city itself, for a number of reasons.
First of all, particulary within Manhattan, there simply isn't enough land available. And the idea of retrofitting an an older building for a Wal-Mart store simply doesn't fit their corporate formula, and it's doubtful that they would be able or willing to aquire and clear the amount of land required for a typical store.
Also, and this is just speculation, I think local opposition would probably be too strong. The opposition that greeted K-Mart when they opened their store in lower Manhattan would be nothing compared to the wrath Wal-Mart would face.
If anything, I think the outer boroughs would be most vulerable to a Wal-Mart invasion, as a number of other big boxes have already moved in. Target would probably move in first if they haven't already done so, as they seem to have shown more interest in building stores in urban areas.
Here in Chicago, Target has a fairly new store in a former industrial area at Elston and Logan Boulevard.
(Here's an interesting ditty about how politics work in Chicago: Local department store Marshall Field's was famous for their Frango brand of chocolate mints, which were made right at Fields' flagship location on State Street. One day, Fields' parent company, Dayton-Hudson, announces that Frango mints will no longer be made on State Street but outsourced to a company in Pennsylvania. All the former Frango workers were abruptly laid off, and a huge public outcry resulted. In the meantime, Target, also a Dayton-Hudson subsidiary, was seeking to expand its Elston Avenue store and had filed a routine building permit. After the Frango blow-up, Target suddenly found that its building permit had been denied with little or no explanation by City Hall. The Dayton-Hudson folks in Minneapolis had failed to take into account how things work in this town. Like I said in another posting, everything here is political.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't forget that Wal-Mart has fought to the death to avoid any unionization of their store employees. Opening up a store in New York City would be a lightning rod for unionization activity, and the company is scared to death of a `domino effect' at other stores, mainly those in the northern states and California that have opened in the last decade.
The risk outweighs any benefit moving into the city would provide, so they're not going to do it.
Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[It's rather doubtful that Wal-Mart would attempt to move into the city itself, for a number of reasons.
First of all, particulary within Manhattan, there simply isn't enough land available. And the idea of retrofitting an an older building
for a Wal-Mart store simply doesn't fit their corporate formula, and it's doubtful that they would be able or willing to aquire and clear the amount of land required for a typical store.
Also, and this is just speculation, I think local opposition would probably be too strong. The opposition that greeted K-Mart when they opened their store in lower Manhattan would be nothing compared to the wrath Wal-Mart would face.
If anything, I think the outer boroughs would be most vulerable to a Wal-Mart invasion, as a number of other big boxes have already moved in. Target would probably move in first if they haven't already done so, as they seem to have shown more interest in building stores in urban areas.]
Target in fact opened a store in Queens about a year ago. They've got another one planned, I believe at a soon-to-be-vacated Stern's site on Queens Boulevard. There might be more. Target's also made a big move into Long Island and New Jersey. K-Mart continues to rule the city itself.
Wal-Mart so far has stayed out of the city. Their closest store is in Westbury, on Long Island. In addition to the real estate issues you've noted, Wal-Mart has a rural and small-town corporate culture (yes, such things do exist) that probably makes them somewhat reluctant to enter large urban markets. That might change, however, as the company's traditional market areas become saturated.
As long as the city makes it difficult to open large stores, Walmart and others will be content to have city residents drive to the suburbs to shop, where the jobs and tax revenues can go to "deserving" people.
Surveys show that hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers already shop at Walmart, Costco, BJ's, etc. And at suburban supermarkets. One such survey was commissioned by Ruth Messinger, who opposed a plan to make it easier to build stores in the city and was trying to prove the opposite. To her credit, she fessed up and published the results, but did not change her position.
I'm sure that's true in Chicago as well. But then, with welfare ending there isn't anyone in Chicago that needs an entry-level retail job, is there?
[As long as the city makes it difficult to open large stores, Walmart and others will be content to have city residents drive to the
suburbs to shop, where the jobs and tax revenues can go to "deserving" people.
Surveys show that hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers already shop at Walmart, Costco, BJ's, etc. And at suburban supermarkets. One such survey was commissioned by Ruth Messinger, who opposed a plan to make it easier to build stores in the city and was trying to prove the opposite. To her credit, she fessed up and published the results, but did not change her position.]
It's all well and good for the city residents who can shop in the suburbs, but there are many who lack that option. City car ownership rates are low and it's not always easy to use transit for major shopping excursions. Which means, of course, that hundreds of thousands - more likely, millions - of city residents are stuck with dirty, cramped, expensive stores. To make matters worse, they're likely to be the people who can least afford to pay high prices. The more affluent types are more likely to own cars and can take advantage of the bargains at the suburban supermarkets.
I supported allowing large stores in the city, to get the tax revenues and the jobs for the poor. But I do all my shopping at local stores.
I have some neighbors who complain about the "characterless" big box stores, and want them kept out. They window shop on the local commercial street. But when it comes to spending a lot of money, they drive out to the suburbs and do it. Makes me sick.
"I'm sure that's true in Chicago as well."
Well, as I implied in my other message on this topic, Chicago political culture doesn't have the reflexive opposition to large stores in urban neighborhoods that New York seems to have.
There ARE some poorer Chicago neighborhoods that are underserved by supermarkets. (Underserved, not unserved: there are Dominick's and Jewel-Osco stores in some very "inner city" locations.) But that's a function of retailers not wanting to locate in particular low-income, high-crime markets, not retailer aversion to city neighborhoods in general or municipal opposition to large-scale retailers.
Nothing. The current mall mgt refused to let the MTA build the station right at the mall entrance, so it went where it is now. The MTA won't cut the service, since the line serves Hunt Valley's business areas too.
02/05/2000
After the mall is torn down, what replaces it? A farm?
Bill Newkirk
Nobody knows at this point. Hunt Valley Mall (AKA Death Valley Mall) was ill concieved from the beginning. White Marsh Mall was nearly finsihed and TowsonTowne Mall had just finished stage 2 of their expansion. Hunt Valley rushed to beat White Marsh, leaving many spaces unfinished. The bare spaces, with pipes, ducts and wires showing were there for all to see. Adding to the problems was the fact that the "upscale" mall in Owings Mills opened just 4 months after Hunt Valley.
That was the "coup de gras". They never recovered, despite getting the Light Rail at the doorstep. (But as I said, the mall mgt REFUSED to have the stop at the mall's mail entrance.)
Farm? Hunt Valley is rapidly becoming "outer suburb", plus very hi-tech industrial area.
02/05/2000
Just joking since all of those housing developments were once farms. My brother lives in one of those developments in Gaithersburg. Was a farm, not any more. What happens when all the farms disappear? Where will our food come from?, somebody's back yard!
Bill Newkirk
Locally, there's Carroll County, Frederick and Washington Counties, Northern Baltimore County, Harford & Cecil Counties and most of the Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland. Mostly rural, and farming.
North of Hunt Valley, Baltimore County is pretty rural. The area is near Hereford, so the area is known as "The Hereford Zone".
The Light Rail ends at Hunt Valley, and the ROW of the former Northern Central Railway north of there is a bike/hike trail (we all know what that means), that's as far as it will ever go.
How would you set up a badly needed east-west subway line in the Baltimore area? I'd generally run it along US route 40, linking Golden Ring (forget about White Marsh)
with Rolling Road, connecting to the 1983 subway at Lex Market. Stops would be Golden Ring Mall, Chesaco, Rosedale Ind. Pk., Armistead Gardens; then along Monument St. at Highland Ave., Johns Hopkins; then down Ensor or Hillen St. with a stop at Old Town Mall. In downtown, Saratoga & Holliday (City Hall), Lex Market (current station already has provisions for a transfer), and MLK Blvd. Next, Saratoga & Carey, then bring it under Franklin/Mulberry for a stop at Pulaski St. (the West Balto. MARC station). Edmonson at Poplar Grove and then Swann Ave., and finally Balto. Nat'l Pike at Ingleside Ave. and somewhere west of Rolling Road. The train yard for this line would be somewhere in Rosedale.
I'd also have a North Ave. line, built like Philly's Subway-Surface lines. Stops would be Belair Rd., Washington St., Broadway or Harford Rd., Greenmount Ave., Charles St., Mount Royal (connection to Light Rail),
Eutaw Pl., Penn-North (slightly west to also serve Fulton-Monroe), Bentalou St., Coppin State College, and finally Walbrook Jct. (around Bloomingdale Rd.). There would be single trolley-like cars, but they would run on third-rail power and connect to the 1983 subway tracks for storage at the Wabash yard.
>>>>Listen to
how suburbanites and their politicians talk: It's always "subsidizing" transit and "investing" in
roadbuilding, when the reality is the exact reverse. <<<
That's because in most of the USA outside of the inner cities, automobile ownership is thought to be the mark of a responsible citizen. If you have to ride a bus or take a train, you're second class somehow.
This attitude even extends to NYC proper. Drivers license is always the ID of choice when it's asked for. I meet resistance when I submit my SocSec card and a photo ID. They always seem to need that drivers license, until I tell them I don't drive.
I could drive, but I don't feel like paying the extra hundreds a month purchasing and caring for a car would entail, and I don't like having to deal with the speed demons on NYC expressways.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Or you can get a non-driver ID.
To add to this:
6. People think mass transit is very slow.
7. People aren't willing to walk to their nearest bus stop/station, or wait outside for a form of transit.
8. Because everyone else does
And here is what I think is the biggest reason, especially among people who are in high school or college or younger.
9. People have been so brainwashed by The American Automobile Society that they would not even think of using mass transit even if it was right under their nose.
This was the case with me before I started 7th Grade, and had to ride transit to school. Before then, I would never have imagined taking transit. But its not like I didn't know that other forms of transportation besides car and school buses existed. Yet even so, I liked to watch for trains on railroad bridges while in the school bus in 5th Grade, and enjoyed a SEPTA bus exhibit at the Please Touch Museum when I was little. I knew there were trains, but I couldn't figure out that I could actually use them.
When I was introduced to the bus in 7th Grade, I was not only impressed with being able to go somewhere without my parents taking me there, but being able to go somewhere without having to explain directions to my parents 5 times, or worrying about where to park. When I was introduced to the Market Frankford Line, I was blown away with its abliity to go between 30th and 15th Streets in 2 minutes. I always liked heavy rail because you didn't have to deal with the ever frequent traffic copmlaints. I even went as far as to think that most transit riders were nicer and less selfish people than car drivers, something still true in Philadelphia sometimes.
Perhaps the number one reason that people hate mass transit is because it is not available in a viable form.
For mass transit to be effective, you need a mass. Without high densities, you have a choice of 1) infrequent and limited and therefore lousy service or 2) empty vehicles and therefore enormous subsidies. When everyone took mass transit, enough service could be supported to make the quality high. Today, Manhattan (to it and within it) is about the only truly viable mass transit market in the U.S., by the standards of 50 years ago.
What everyone else is left with is a deteriorated skeleton of a system. Your fellow riders will either be us transit-buff eccentrics or those too poor or screwed up to drive. The same thing happened to the inter-city rail market, and the bus market, to an extent. It also happened to walking -- can't get anywhere in most of the U.S.
Here in NYC and the surrounding area, people do not hate transit, except for a few Archie Bunker types who don't like mixing with non-whites. There are a few other cities with historic transit systems in place that could recover to the extent that NYC has, but haven't yet. But think about it, if you want to live in a neighborhood where you can walk to your main street and a public park with things going on, and take transit to major concentration of job opportunities, what are your options.
Your post got me thinking about the title of this thread. My suspicion is that most people outside New York and a few other metro areas - suburban residents in particular - don't actually hate transit; instead, they don't even think about it in the first place. They don't use it and probably don't know anyone who does. Chances are they don't know the local bus routes, assuming that any exist, and may not even know what fares are charged. Transit, in short, occupies a place in the average suburbanite's life that's about as significant as the breeding habits of Alaskan caribou or the political situation in Uzbekistan.
[Transit, in short, occupies a place in the average suburbanite's life that's about as significant as the breeding habits of Alaskan caribou or the political situation in Uzbekistan. ]
And Uzbekistan actually has a subway system. In fact a new line just opened there! (In Tashkent, the capital).
Most suburbanites have cars, and can drive to rail stations. Some will drive long distances to stations, some don't even think of using the station when they live next door to it.
I am stil a teenager, I have a drivers liesance, I own a car, I love my car, I also love/prefer transit. For most kids driving is the greatest thing in the world, but after I had to commute to my summer job day after day for me driving began to loose some of its appeal. What turns me off to driving is fisrt of all my car is an unrelable death trap (1969 Ford Mustang convertable) so every drive I take is like playing russian roulette. Secondly rush hour traffic is simply awful. I didn't even have to go into Philly, but I still found my commute unpleasant. Day after day of GAS BRAKE HONK, GAS BRAKE HONK, HONK HONK PUNCH, GAS GAS GAS. People around Philly spend an average of 20 min a day in gridlock. That's not even counting slow moving traffic or conjestion. In the route 42/55/295/130/676/Walt Whitman bridge mess you're guarenteed a 45 min wait. As suburban population increases our nations roads are turning into parking lots. I've never heard of a growing problem with transit congestion. The third reason I prefer transit is because you don't have to be activly involved in transiting. When you're in a car you can't do much except drive (although people are constantly trying to prove me wrong). If you use transit you walk to your station, get on and then you are free to work, read, eat, shave, sleep, etc. Our nation is reaching a crisis and transit is the solution. However, many people still pray to their cars and will continue to oppose transit despite the fact that transit works. Take a look at PATCO. PATCO was built with the car in mind. Each station has ample park and ride. One station has its own freeway interchange. Everyday I walk by my station the parking lots are FULL. From what I have heard PATCO has consistantly made money and the PA uses it as a cash cow to fund other projects. The commuters get to have their cake and eat it too. They get to use their cars for the fun (local) part of the drive and then they use PATCO to bypass the bridges and to avoid parking in the city. When I talk to students from the NYC metro area about how they get into the city they always say, NJT or LIRR or Metro North. They love using trainst and they are first to sing the praises of transit (they also love how they let you drink on the LIRR). Once transit is there and once people have used it and once they see the alternatives I think there will be a transit renaissance in this country. I just hope it happens soon.
PS: There is a book somewhere out there about a massive traffic jam that hits the east coast and cars are stuck in perminant gridlock. The book is about how the trapped people survive by forming little cities and scavenging parties. Paints a very interesting scenario.
For your last paragraph: Why can't these people WALK home?
PATCO is an interesting transit line because some of its most used stations are not in the most high density areas. Yet it runs at headways half of those on Philadelphia's regular subways. Many commuters do not live in walking distance of their local PATCO station, and could not walk. But even so its cost recovery ratio has been pretty good. Disproves people who say ultra high density is needed for good transit.
Density of destination is the most important part. Everybody has to be in the same central area, else you'd end up having to build many lines, transfer many times or either have high headways or ridiculously high subsidies.
I think Mr. Amsterdam has it right. PATCO serves Downtown Philly, one of the few real Downtowns in the U.S. So it has enough density to walk to the destination on one end. On the other end, it has parking, a substitute for 20+ housing units per acre and walking.
That is true. The density on the downtown end is high, but on the suburban end is low.
Much as I love rail transit and in fact am not legal to drive(eyesight), perhaps the following vignettes will help illustrate some attitudes. "The $1.13 hustle--panhandler working the BART train begging for some ludicrous odd sum of money supposedly to complete his fare." "The boom box moron" not just leaking out of the earphones but playing the speakers(when this happens on buses it is usually ignored by the driver!). "Dysfunctional family dramas" need I describe these? All of this balances out against the relatively controlled noise level in the individual car tuned to whatever or cruising the latest CD. In turn what you also looking at is the increasing sprawl of the job market as the better paying work moves away from the urban cores to locations where there is no transit or at best none to where many of the workers live. And indeed David Cole is spot on about 'subsidies'--like state tax free bonds to build new office parks etc.
I was at McDonald's with my philosophy major friend the other day, and we came up with a reason:
Because on the train/subway, you're effectively equal to everyone else on that train. You've got more or less the same seat, ride, noise level, etc.
In a car, you're all to yourself in your whatevermobile. Which leads right into the "Look at me in my BMW, I'm so rich I have one for every day of the week. You suck because you have a Honda, but I've got a BMW, so I must be better than you" attitude.
People like to talk about equality and that stuff, but when you get down to it, a lot of people don't practice what they preach.
I'm somewhat well known on campus for walking to the local supermarkets, or to the local McDonalds*. Now, I live near two. The close one, is litteraly accross the tracks - in a somewhat rundown, mostly minority section of Hartford. An easy 10 minute walk. The far one, is in the more upscale section, but about a 45 minute walk. I go to the close one, unless I need to go shopping or to the Post Office (in which I have to walk to the other one). Most people, upon finding this out, look at me like I'm some sort of wacko. "You go where???" They then start on the typical "But that's where those people go" I tell them I don't care, it's closer, it's got the same food, prices, service, etc. They still don't get it.
I don't get why I should avoid "those" people.
Oh yes, and not having a car around here, people DO treat you like you're second class. I've had "get a car!!!" yelled at me a few times. And not by college students.
*The concept of walking, in itself, is a radical one here. I know students who actually live on campus and drive to class. On campus. I once had to listen to some freshman whine about how he had to go off campus, and how he "needed" a car. Why? Not because he didn't have a car, but because his was parked at the other end of campus!!! I suggested he walk, at which point, he moaned about how cold it is outside. And it's a long walk too (all 1000 feet of it). It's times like this, I wish opec would just stop produceing oil for a year or two.
I also prefer alternate means local transportation. If I need something at the store or want to get lunch at the Chinese place I'll walk to get it or I'll take my bike. Its only about 45 min round trip walking or 20 biking, plus I'm getting some exercise that will help ofset what I'm buying at the store. I also enjoy distance running and jogging and I can jog anywhere I really need to go in about 20 min. Back in September I needed to go home via Amtrak. The nearest Amtrak station's 7.8 miles away in Meriden and I needed to get there before 2:30 to pick up my ticked and the bus would get there at 2:45 so I got out my shoes, decided to walk it and I made it in a little over 2 hours. In fact when I got back the next day I decided to walk back. Saved a total of $40 in cab fare. I was sore for a week after that one and I have since learned of the $6 bus to New Haven so I will never so it again, but walking is an effective means of transportation. Once as part of a railfan trip I was dropped off where I wanted to start and I walked 20 miles home. Only took me 6 hours.
My walking record is when I went from Chambers Street to 159th Street mostly nonstop (I stopped for lunch at Tom's on 112th and B'way). It was raining! I finally gave up on going up to Marble Hill and settled on 168th, but I was tired, wet and sore and decided that it would be best to turn around and pick up the train at 157th.
One day, I hope to go from the Battery to Marble Hill.
Not a bad goal. During my first visit to NYC, I took the C to Brooklyn Bridge / High Street, walked across the bridge and around lower Manhattan and then all the way up to East 79th and then across the park to my friend's place at 87th and Amsterdam. I didn't exactly take the most direct route, as I did a lot of exploring of various side streets and alleys and made my way to the tops of a couple skyscrapers along the way, so I figured I covered about 10-15 miles or so that afternoon. I also did a lot of walking during my most recent visit, but I broke it up into a number of segments instead of trying to cover all of Manhattan in one day.
My goals for future visits:
1) Walk across the rest of the East River bridges in addition to the Brooklyn Bridge. (No trip to NYC is complete for me without at least one walk across the Brooklyn Bridge. I grew up in awe of the Brooklyn Bridge's grandaddy, the Roebling Suspension Bridge in my hometown of Cincinnati.)
2) Spend at least a half-day walking in each of the five boroughs.
3) Ride each line on the entire subway system from end to end.
4) Get myself a decent camera and bring it along, so I can capture some of the street scenes I wish I could have captured previously.
5) Battery to Marble Hill would be a rather worthy goal to add to my list as well, now that you mention it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A bunch of City Planners once tried to walk all the way around Manhattan Island. They made it up the east side then down as far as 59th. Most of they were so sore they had to take a couple of days off.
They probably wore their work shoes, which when you work in an office, aren't good for long distance walking. The good thing about being a High School student is that there's no dress code. I always wear some sort of sneaker, my feet are never sore enough not to recover after some relaxing. When I did the Chambers-159 walk, my feet were fine after I sat down in the subway and I didn't even take them off.
My goal is to ride each and every line of the subway. I still have yet to ride the J, M, Z, and the Franklin Ave & 42nd street shuttles. BTW, when I saw the pics of the 21st queensbridge station and the adjacent stations, I saw the "T" train, what was that?? I never knew such a train ran through there.
There was a T train that ran where the B now runs in Brooklyn. The picture in question was one to commemorate the passing of the R-30 in 1993. 26 years after the T stopped running. Not only that, but the T stopped running 22 years before that station opened!
The T was the pre-Chrystie St. Broadway-West End Express. It was essentially the old #3 West End route which was assigned the letter T when the IND letter code was expanded to include the BMT. Today's B train is a combination of the T and the IND rush hour BB line, both of which passed into history in November of 1967.
Unfortunetly most people who think this way are wrong. To site an example when the South Jersey PATCO line the only problem fashionable suburb of Haddonfield had with PATCO was that a tressle would mar the historic city centre and so the line was laid in a deep trench and mostly everyone was happy. Let us also look at another fashionable suburb called Moorestown. This town is also located on a little used railroad right of way and there have been many plans for light rail, but time and time again the people of Moorestown (and other communities along the line) have block construction for god knows what reasons. Since 1980 alone housing values in Haddonfield have more than doubled and on average are more than that of Moorestown even though the houses in Moorestown are bigger and nicer. So it is obvious that transit increases property values. Geez, just look at the "Main Line". Why do people want to live there? Ummm, easy access to the city perhaps? As for the problem with minorities/the poor "messing up" the place Haddonfield has dealt with the problem by stationing ever-vigilant members of its police force near the station where they arrest any minority/poor person for "panhandling". I am not kidding. So with transit coupled to an agressive police force any fashionable suburb can have its cake and eat it too.
I think when you get right down to it, the reasons you state, while providing juicy sound-bites for the rallying cry of the anti-transit set, are by-products of a fundamental cultural fact about Americans. We place the highest value on FREEDOM. You could even say that mass transit in the United States never really had a chance once we fought at Lexington and Concord. In fact, if you think about any political issue of our times, disagreements arise not usually over issues themselves, but rather an inate resentment of being TOLD what to do, when to do it, and in what manner. It doesn't matter who's doing the dictating, be it Republicans or Democrats, the government, a special interest, or even simply those responsible for getting you from here to there.
Anyone familiar with my past posts on this site knows I appreciate, use daily, and in a way, even love all facets of rail transit, but think about it: Wouldn't you rather have your own house, your own yard for you kids to play in, and your own means of getting around, and no schedules? But there's the thing: owning a car does not necessarily mean you CAN get around that easily. Witness the account of your personal commute. We New Yorkers have always been forced to acknowledge the fact that here, the subway provides more "freedom" than cars. Manhattan geography made for a much more rapid "sprawl," which occurred at a time when labor was cheap and fast (and also incredibly unsafe).
For me, it's all about options. As I someday do hope to own a car, I'd gladly have my transportation tax dollar split equally between the steel rail and the blacktop (okay, maybe 70% rail, 30% road!). But my perfect world would have a train running 50 yards from my driveway!
"mass transit" is ok. stop bad-mouthing it!
I was looking at the nycsubway.org page about the 8th Ave/Fulton IND, and I came across something that I found very confusing in the photo which accompanies the description of the 88th St./Boyd Ave station. (http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40-4435.jpg).
This 1970 photo depicts a train running on the elevated tracks near the 88th St. station. It seems to me that this train is a Manhattan-bound ("northbound") train, going westward above Liberty Ave.
The thing that is confusing me is a streetsign which can be seen near the lower-right-hand corner of the photo. This streetsign clearly reads "69" (I cannot make out the little letters which follow the number).
This sign is quite odd, since the street numbers at that point are (obviously) in the 80s, not the 60s. There is in fact no 69th St. along Liberty Ave. in Queens; the last numbered Queens street that crosses Liberty Ave. before the Brooklyn border is 75th St. So, this would seem to rule out its being a "street" marker.
However, the pictured sign cannot be an "avenue" marker either, since the avenue numbers at that station are nowhere near 69. (At 88th St., Liberty Ave. is flanked by 103rd Ave. to the north, and 107th Ave. to the south.)
Can someone clear up this mystery by explaining what that sign says, and what it is doing on Liberty Ave. near 88th St.?
Ferdinand Cesarano
I agree, enlarging/zooming in the street sign area sure does bring up a "69".
Maybe the photo was captioned in error and the photo was in another location.
I was gonna guess maybe at 69th Street on the "B" (West End) -- but then I got to thinking, in tha era, the street signs in Brooklyn were white characters on black background -- weren't they?
It's probably taken at 71st St Station on the B-West End facing north. That looks like probably the express station at 62nd/New Utrect in the distance. If anyone can confirm I'll change the caption.
No - I don't think so. If memory serves me correctly, the alignment of the West End El between 71st & 62nd Sts, heading towards Manhattan, is straight as an arrow and on a downgrade. The 62nd St station widens the El for its 3 tracks & 2 platforms. There is also an interlocking along that downgrade. I don't "see" that in the picture. The alignment is more consistent with the West End EL between 62nd ST & 55th St. The picture seems to indicate that the station in the distance is a local station on a slight turn to the left. That does match the West End's alignment there, but it can't be because the picture was clearly taken from a local platform, and 62nd St is an express station.
Did the Jamaica El have 3 tracks in that area (between Cypress Hills & Eldert's Lane) at that time? Then again, I don't recall slant 40s running on it in those years.
Maybe the sign says 89, not 69?
--Mark
This picture is captioned correctly. It is the Liberty Ave. el as viewed from the Lefferts/Far Rock platform, looking east. The dead giveaway is the lack of an outside catwalk along the tracks. One wasn't installed on this line until the tracks were rehabbed about 12-15 years ago. I can't see where the "69" is. No street sign is visible to me.
To see the streetsign, look at the photo's lower-right-hand corner.
There is a small pole which holds a stop sign (seen from the back) and a one-way sign. Right next to this pole is a lamppost. The "69" sign is on the lamppost, placed a tiny bit higher than the one-way sign is on its pole. The lampost in question is partly in sunlight, partly in shadow. The "69" sign can be seen on the shadowy part.
As to the possibility that this could be a Brooklyn sign: seems doubtful, since, as Steve Hoskins already mentioned, the Brooklyn signs had white lettering on a black background at that time.
The sign looks like a Queens "whitey", with blue lettering on a white background. Any chance it is Beach 69th St. in Rockaway? Of course, there is no "B" on the sign, so I guess this is unlikely also.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I cannot see the numbers on this sign. However, even if it does say 69, it's irrelevant. It's clearly the Liberty Ave. el, as seen from the eastbound 88th st station, prior to the installation of full windscreens at the end of each platform. That sign must be for 89th St, not 69th St. Perhaps the sign was defaced in some manner to make an 8 appear as a 6.
The tracks have no outside catwalk. This was an unusual characteristic of this particular line at the time the pic was taken.
BTW, how can everybody say they see a 69 and not
an 89? I can't even make out what color the` sign is.
On my screen I can clearly see it a White and Blue sign as for the 69 vs 89 it looks alot like 69 to me...
White & blue indicates a Queens street. No B division elevated crosses a "69th" street anywhere in Queens. It's either a defaced sign or an incorrect sign. The point is moot. From other indicators, the picture is indeed the Liberty Ave el (A) line, looking east from the 88th/Boyd Ave station.
There is a three track portion on Crescent St that ends before Jamaica Ave. The nearest three track portion on Jamaica Ave would be the lay-up tracks at 111 th St.
IIRC, for 69th St to be off Jamaica Ave, it would have to be Hemlock St or Autumn Ave in Cypress Hills. and those two streets have had their names almost since time began.
I looked at the sign as closly as I could it clearly says 69 so it must be the J/Z line in Queens
The sign is wrong. The line IS the Liberty Ave. el at the location described before. I know this area well, as I live near this station.
It cant be the J/Z. Why? The J line never crosses over a 69th St. There is no middle track anywhere along the line with the exception of the 111th St. spur. The buildings along Jamaica Ave. are much closer to the tracks than it appears in this picture.
This picture's location is EXACTLY where the caption states it is. Forget the sign. It's wrong. It MUST be an 89 defaced, or just plain incorrect. We all know how the city screws up it's street signs.
Numbered streets in Queens begin with 75 in the part of Queens south of Forest Park. I looked at the picture. While I DO think that the number looks a bit like "69" it also looks more like "89". That's Rockaway Boulevard station in the distance, with the distinctive curve at the west end of the platform.
Wayne
That is a QUEENS street sign. It is blue letters on a white background, and one like that would never be found in Brooklyn. Even though it looks like "69" is is more than likely "89", which is just east of the 88th St-Boyd Avenue station.
Wayne
There's just one flaw in your theory: the entire alignment of 69th Street in Brooklyn is called Bay Ridge Avenue. It must have been changed sometime in the thirties or forties, because a lot of old-time Bay Ridgers still call it 69th Street. The old pre-Bridge ferry to Staten Island was called the 69th Street Ferry.
Likewise, what should be 75th Street is called Bay Ridge Parkway; what should be 22nd Avenue is Bay Parkway; what should be 4th Avenue is Park Avenue. I vaguely recall seeing some long-gone directional signs at Grand Central referring to the Lex line as the 4th Avenue line.
As has been discussed, several previously lettered Avenues in Brooklyn are now fully-named Roads starting with the same letter in the alignment (Clarendon, Farragut, Glenwood, Quentin).
The oddest conversion I've ever seen is in Flushing, Queens where there is a series of consecutively alphabetized numbered avenues (due to the profusion of nurseries in the area in the 1800s). It's pretty consistent- Ash, Beech, Cherry- but then you hit 45th AVENUE. Old maps indicate Franconia Avenue in its stead. Somewhere along the line, Franconia- and only Franconia was changed to reflect the more modern numbering system. Well, at least 45th starts with an F.
Thanks for bringing that up -- I never bothered to look at a NYC AAA map right here on my desk.
And after living in the Flatbush area in my youth (East 26th & Clarendon), I NEVER put two and two together on the "Road" names being in any sort of order.
Goes to show, we learn something new every day!
Thanks for the enlightenment!!
the 7 line has the same along Queens Blvd the stations have names but the streets are numbered....
The stations are numbered. The old signs (now mostly removed) only indicated the old names.
The A line stations in Queens continue to sport the street names as well as numbers, yet the names haven't been used since 1917.
The funny thing is, the pier at the end of Bay Ridge Avenue is known officially as the "69th Street Pier".
Also, anyone who's live in Bay Ridge for any period of time would NEVER refer to the streets as "Bay Ridge Avenue" or "Bay Ridge Parkway". It's like calling 6th Avenue "Avenue of the Americas".
Maps from the 1890s show them as 69th Street and 75th Street.
Ovington Avenue, which also runs through the area, is apparently an older road, since it is on a slightly different angle than the grid at some points.
I'm drawing a blank why 69th and 75th were renamed; I doubt they wanted to get rid if the number 69, since it appears elsewhere in NYC without any effort to hide it.
I think they made a confusing situation, since Bay Ridge newbies have to differentiate betwen Bay Ridge Pkwy, Bay Ridge Ave., Bay Ridge Place, Ridge Blvd. (which replaces 2nd Avenue), Ridge Court, and Bay Parkway.
Bay Ridge, like Canarsie, has some aboriginal streets that have survived the centuries like Ovington, Stewart Avenue and Forest Place.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Great job breaking down the street name/numbers. Here are some more...
Rockaway Parkway = E.97 Street
Remsen Avenue = E.90 Street
Utica Avenue = E.50 Street
Nostrand Avenue = E.30 Street
Bedford Avenue = E.25 Street
Ocean Avenue = E.20 Street
Coney Island Avenue = E.10 Street
Ocean Parkway = E.6 Street
Where is Avenue "E"? I guess it is now Foster Avenue
Over in Queens, we have 119 Street posing as Lefferts Blvd., and 163 Street is Guy Brewer Blvd. south of Jamaica Avenue. And YES 45 Avenue is the "F" street in that alphabetical series in Flushing. There are more alphabetical series in Jackson Heights, Forest Hills Gardens, and St. Albans. Interestingly, 117th Avenue in Queens doesn't even exist. It is Foch Blvd and then, further east, Linden Blvd. And what's with the zig-zagging pattern of Francis Lewis Blvd? NOW BACK TO TRAINS....
"Coney Island Avenue = E.10 Street"
Well, that depends on where you are - in some places it's E. 11th St.,and, aafter Avenue C, it's E. 9th St.
"Where is Avenue "E"? I guess it is now Foster Avenue"
Not quite - if you look at old Brooklyn maps of the area between Coney Island Ave. and McDonald Ave. you'll see that Albamarlle (sp?) Rd. was Ave. A; Beverley was Ave. B; Ave. C still exists; then, in a bit of a twist, Cortelyou Rd. (not Ditmas Ave.) was Ave. D; and Ditmas Ave was Ave. E. From there on, Ave. F still exists, Glenwood and Quentin Rds. replace Aves. G and Q, and the rest of the letters of the alphabet still exist.
subfan
oney Island Ave is East 11th, Also remember NY Ave, Albany, Kingston, Schenectody(spelling) etc are also replacing East # Sts and mcDonald Ave is East 1st
Hating to be a party-pooper, but my aunt lived for many years on E. 1st St, and it was most definitely not McDonald Ave.
McDonald Avenue shifts westward at Kings Highway. East 1st Street replaces it at Avenue S.
And furthermore:
E.47th St = Schenectady Avenue
E.44th St = Troy Avenue
E.41st St = Albany Avenue
E.36th St = Brooklyn Avenue
E.33rd St = New York Avenue
E.27th St = Rogers Avenue
Wayne (2511 Newkirk Avenue :: DORA COURT :: )
Also
East 30th Street: Marine Parkway
East 60th Street: Ralph Avenue
East 62th Street: Mill Avenue
East 75th Street: Royce Street
East 76th Street: Bergen Avenue
West 14th Street: Stillwell Avenue
0th Street: Dahill Road
0th Street: West Street
22nd Ave-Bay Pkwy etc etc etc
We were only talking about the East and West N system.
See the second paragraph in the last message I posted.
I like that - 0th Street. I wonder what if any ordinal "0" uses. Did you know that in DC there are ½ Streets (the signs read "Half Street") and it is between South Capitol and 1st Street on either side. There was also a 12½ Street NW off Penna Avenue but I don't know if it's still there. It is right near Fed'l Triangle sta.
Wayne
How many streets in Brooklyn Have the name 9th St, East, West, Beach Etc. Also there are 2 West 9th Streets, and the N crosses 1 and runs 1 block from the other.
West 9th in Red Hook is so named because it is immediately west of where 9th Street begins on Smith Street; the other West 9th falls into line with its brother West X Streets in Gravesend. Very confusing for non Brooklynites and cabbies.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right, 2 west 9ths, but how many other with the number "9" you could include 9th Ave also
9th Street
West 9th Street
9th Avenue
East 9th Street
Paerdegat 9th Street
Flatlands 9th Street
Brighton 9th Street
South 9th Street
North 9th Street
and that's just in Brooklyn ALONE!
According to 1995 Hagstrom Atlas thre is no Brighton 9th, There are 4 Brighton 8th and 5 Brighton 10 but no Brighton 9. As to East Numbered Sts. They range from East 1st to 108th But there is no East 20th(Ocean) 30th(Nostrand)50th(Utica)or 90th(no replacement) East 23 was also know as Delamere Rd and E 24th as Mansfield Rd.
There also is no East 44th or East 47th. Also no 62nd, 75th and 97th. And 90th is replaced, by Remsen Avenue. All of them are replaced. 44 is Troy, 47 is Schenectady, 62 is Mill, 75 is Royce Street and 97 is Rockaway Parkway.
Here's a DETAILED list of streets partially or wholly replaced by a named street.StreetAvenue ReplacingRuns BetweenActual Street RunsW14StillwellBay Pkwy to Riegelmann Bdwk0Dahill RoadCaton Av to Kings Hwy0West StreetAve T to Shore Pkwy1McDonald10 Av to Ave XAve S to Shore Pkwy6Ocean ParkwayPark Cir to Surf AvAve Y to Shore Pkwy8Sherman St10 Av to Terrace Pl & Vanderbilt St and Ocean PkwyOcean Pkwy to Gravesend Neck Rd9Coney IslandPark Cir to Riegelmann BdwkBeverley Rd to Ave V10Caton Av to Church Av & Foster Av to Ave R11Ave X to Neptune Av11Stratford RoadCaton Av to Ditmas Av12Westminster RdCaton Av to Ave HAve H to Neptune Av13Argyle RdAve H to death bef Neptune Av14Rugby RdAve H to Neptune Av15Marlboro RdCaton Av to Foster AvAve H to Emmons Av20OceanEmpire Blvd to Esplanade24BedfordManhattan Av to Emmons AvFoster Av to Voorhies Av25Cortelyou Rd to Foster Av27RogersBergen? St to Farragut RdGlenwood Rd to Emmons Av30NostrandFlushing Av to Emmons Av33New YorkFulton St to Ave NAve N to Ave U36BrooklynFulton St to Flatbush AvFlatbush Av to Ave U41AlbanyDecatur St to Ave KKings Hwy to Flatlands Av44TroyFulton St to Flatbush Av47SchenectadyFulton St to Flatbush Av50UticaChauncey? St to Ave S60RalphBway to E 98 St & Remsen Av to Ave TAve T to Ave U62MillRalph Av to National Dr75Royce StRoyce Pl to Ave N & Ave T to Bergen Ave76BergenAve K to Ave X & Royce St to Ave YRalph Av to Glenwood Rd & Flatlands Av to Paerdegat 1 St90RemsenUtica Av to Seaview Av97Rockaway PkwyE NY Av to Canarsie Vets Cir
I stan corrected, where did you get that list?and Kings Highway Crosses Most of them, without a break
KH DOES NOT cross West Street, Stratford, Westminster, Argyle, Rugby and Marlboro Roads, Albany, Ralph and Mill Avenues, Royce Street and Bergen Avenue.
I said most of them, not all of them
I don't care. I was being more specific.
Where exactly is Flatlands 9 Street?????
3TM
I just found it, It runs between E 106 and 108, between Flatlands Ave, and the Belt Pkwy, actually between M and N, and it is in Carnarsie, not Flatlands Go Figure
No, it's Between Avenue N and Flatlands 10 (which comes right before Seaview). And it's between 105 and 108. They're named because they're numbered sequentially from Flatlands.
I just gave the General Area
maybe somebody remembers the 69th street ferry between staten island and brooklyn. For reference check Railroad ferries of the Hudson, the sixty ninth street ferry is mentioned on pages 27, 60 and 168.
It also used to be called the Electric Ferries, why I don t know, but great trip for a nickle back then.
[West 9th in Red Hook is so named because it is immediately west of where 9th Street begins on Smith Street; the other West 9th falls into line with its brother West X Streets in Gravesend. Very confusing for non Brooklynites and cabbies.]
If you want to give delivery people or taxi drivers a taste of REAL Brooklyn confusion, direct them to the intersection of Kings Highway and Quentin Road :-)
Which one, at E 12 or W 10th?
In Queens there is a horseshoe shaped street (246 Crescent) that crosses 244th street twice. Also in Levittown there are a number of streets that are so windy they cross themselves. For example there is an intersection of Duckpond Rd and Duckpond Rd or the intersection of Sprucewood Lane & Sprucewood Lane.
Just like in San Francisco, where Third Street hooks around south of China Basin and intersects almost every other numbered street in the city.
Let us not forget in the West Village where West 4th Street crosses West 10th, 11th and 12th Streets.
In Queens there is a horseshoe shaped street (246 Crescent) that crosses 244th street twice. Also in Levittown there are a number of streets that are so windy they cross themselves. For example there is an intersection of Duckpond Rd and Duckpond Rd or the intersection of Sprucewood Lane & Sprucewood Lane. Not easy if you're on the phone with a repairman or a delivery service and they ask your cross streets.
You are repeating yourself Sarge, hell of a night huh.
Actually hell of a day!! I took 'lil Arthur to the Big A today. I guess he's going to be an usher when he grows up. He was determined to put every seat up then down in the whole grandstand and to chase every seagull he saw there. I got some workout chasing him. I was going to park at Liberty and Woodhaven and take the train 1 stop for Arthur but I left too late.
>>>I like that - 0th Street. I wonder what if any ordinal "0" uses. Did you know that in DC there are *
Streets (the signs read "Half Street") and it is between South Capitol and 1st Street on either side. There
was also a 12* Street NW off Penna Avenue but I don't know if it's still there. It is right near Fed'l
Triangle sta. <<
Some cities, like Baltimore, do have X-1/2 Streets. Brooklyn takes the cake, though, with about a dozen streets each carrying the numbers 1, 2, and 3.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In Baltimore we have one half street (26 1/2th Street) midway between 26th and 27th, intersecting Charles. That's the only one we have.
We do have a plethera of half addresses, where a large unbuilt lot had two houses built on it after the addresses were numbered.
We have missing house numbers. Mine is 2920, my next-door neighbor is 2916. There's no 2918.
I'm at the east end of the street, a quick walk to the car stop on the corner - only to June 16, 1956, when the 19 car went (ugh) bus.
In Brooklyn, we have A lots. The lots were laid out for 20 X 100 foot lots with rowhouses, but when the economy got hot lot widths narrowed. My rowhouse is 17 feet wide, others are 16 or even 15 feet wide. So you end up with extra addresses, hence I'm at 223 and my next door neighbor is at 223A.
I do believe there is a 19th 1/2 Street, off Greenmount Ave above North Ave.
Did you know that in parts of the east side, there is no 300 North block? Along Orleans St. in the vicinity of Johns Hopkins, the numbers on north-south streets jump from 200 (Fayette to Orleans) to 400 (Orleans to Jefferson).
Finally, study the names of north-south streets in Highlandtown and eastward, especially along Eastern Ave. Starting with Conkling, the street names are in alphabetic order (Dean, Eaton, can't remember the "F", Grundy, Haven, etc.). These were all numbered streets many years ago...the numbered streets in the 60s along Eastern Ave. and Pulaski Hwy just outside the city line were part of that pattern.
>>>These were all numbered streets many years ago...the numbered streets in
the 60s along Eastern Ave. and Pulaski Hwy just outside the city line were part of that pattern. <<<
Thanks. I had wondred why there are isolated streets in the 60s at the city line.
Chicago has its own version of that..its numbered streets begin at 9. In Philly, numbered avenues begin in the 50s.
I've always noticed patterns in naming of streets. Here in NY, the Bronx has a flock of NYC mayors; Brooklyn has a gaggle of signers of the Declaration; Queens has a bouquet of plants in alphabetical order, left over from when Flushing was full of greenhouses and plant nurseries; Staten Island has an army of astronauts and a murder of classical composers.
Someday...a page on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you look at a map of Anne Arundel County, MD (south of Baltimore) you'll find an isolated set of numbered streets in the 200s! They are north of Mountain Road (MD route 177), which is located east-southeast of Glen Burnie. Lord knows what pattern those streets came from.
(Staten Island Street names...)
And a bunch of street names that are, how shall we say it - eclectic - i.e.
Lortel Avenue
Yeomalt (?!?) Avenue
Croak (!) Avenue
Coale Avenue
Lamped Loop (?)
Cebra Avenue
Bang Terrace
Notus Avenue (notthem either)
Weed Avenue (far out, man!)
Targee Street
just to name a few.
I STILL haven't figured out what a Yeomalt is - I've been scratching my head over that one since 1964.
Wayne
Lortel Avenue
Yeomalt (?!?) Avenue
Croak (!) Avenue
Coale Avenue
Lamped Loop (?)
Cebra Avenue
Bang Terrace
Notus Avenue (notthem either)
Weed Avenue (far out, man!)
Targee Street
Of course, all the streets listed above were probably names of people on whose land the streets were built, or friends of the contractor, or somebody's mother-in-law.
Staten Island is facinating for its occasional stretches of rurality (that are quickly disappearing in all the cookie cutter development) and for the fact that it has never succumbed to a borough-wide numbering plan, as Queens did in the 20s.
SI also has a group of European rivers and a group of streets inspired by Alaska, for some reason.
I'm still perplexed by Fingerboard Road. Were there a lot of violin players there in the 19th century? A fingerboard is the long part of the violin/viola where the strings are mounted.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Creedmoor State Hospital used to be an NRA shooting range, whence Winchester and Springfield Blvds., plus some names like Musket and Pistol Sts. that I don't think have survived. Westerleigh on Staten Island (northeast of Willowbrook) was founded as a temperance colony, "Prohibition Park," in the 1880s, and the streets are either named for leaders of the movement, or then-dry states like Maine. (Both tidbits lifted from Willensky & White, AIA Guide to New York City, 3 ed.: possibly the best book in the whole world.)
The book....
Willensky & White, AIA Guide to New York City, 3 ed.: possibly the
best book in the whole world.
is out of print (it's from 1988) but the better libraries probably have it, or one of its two older editions.
Even though Elliott Willensky passed away a few years ago, Norval White has been busily preparing a new edition himself, which should come out this year; if not, certainly next year...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Musket Street and Range Street (the one with the grass divider) are still there. It's Pistol Street that succumbed to the plain-vanilla name of 235th Court back in the early 1960s. There are also streets with names like "Sabre" and "Ransom" in the same vicinity.
Wayne
Now let's go to Queens: Some stations still carry dual names such as 71/Continental, 46/Bliss, etc. does anyone have a list of all the old names or where(whioch street/Avenue) did the old name system end
>>>We have missing house numbers. Mine is 2920, my next-door neighbor is 2916. There's no 2918. <<<
In NYC we skip a LOT of house numbers. Finding out why will be very difficult...if and when I do, it'll be on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Being a Chicagoan, I've always been rather confounded by NYC's street numbering system (is there even a system?), even in upper Manhattan.
What would make the most sense would be if the street numbers on the avenues corresponded with the numbered cross streets. Example: A location at "8650 Amsterdam" would be located on Amsterdam halfway between 86th and 87th. The avenues themselves would also be numbered, i.e., 2nd Avenue would be 200, 8th Avenue would be 800, etc. A location at "850 West 72nd" would be on 72nd halfway between CPW and Columbus.
Just my humble opinion. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Of course with a cross street system like that, you would exclude alphabet city, and kill the east and west side system.
The crosstown grid works, for west streets, add to five, for east, subtract.
I agree with you North-South. This is already used on Riverside Drive in the 150s and northward.
All avenue addresses start from one. Queens has a grid, the streets are just crooked, but it's still better than anywhere else.
And here's a Brooklyn Key:
X Ave, X Street grid: gridded except in situations where streets or avenues start before one, in that case, the street/avenue catch up.
Letter Avenues: When the start on the west side, they are sequential from one, and "catch up" to a grid system on the east side.
East/West X Streets: Either sequential, based on number of letter or numbered to match adjacent street.
My house number is 2742. The 2000 block is between Avenues T and U. From there, the road continues on to add 100 for each next block as it curves in an area of being off the grid. Even though the arcs of the streets cause my street to be shorter than the next one, the block is all 2700.
My old house number was 1235, between Avenues J and K, although this is because the streets start at a staggered rate, far north of what Avenue A would be. Then there was also 1420 and 1642, which were between N & O and P & Quentin respectively, which makes sense.
Oddly, the numbered avenues in Brooklyn (3rd, 4th and 5th)change their numbering scheme at 39th Street. After 5th, avenues are interrupted by Green-Wood Cemetery so the change is not as jarring.)
Between Atlantic Avenue and 39th, the numbers begin at one and go to about 900, but 3900 takes over at 39th Street.
This difference represents the old Brooklyn-New Utrecht city line. After New Utrecht was annexed, the house numbers were not changed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Most of the north-south streets in the Bronx have address numbers originating from the Harlem River and East River and ascending upwards towards the city line. After a while you get used to 1900 marking Tremont Avenue, 2400 marking Fordham Road, etc.
Interestingly, Riverdale uses a system on its north-south streets somewhat similar to that in Queens and southwest Brooklyn whereby the address is keyed to the intersecting numbered street. Thus, 5601 Netherland Avenue can be found between 256th and 257th Streets.
Then again, Riverdale is denying its being situated in the Bronx. I'm seeing more and more addresses that end in Riverdale, New York 10463/10471. While this is technically not incorrect, it is confusing. We got an invitation to a party at such an address and my wife thought it was in a new part of Queens she never heard of!
[Then again, Riverdale is denying its being situated in the Bronx. I'm seeing more and more addresses that end in Riverdale, New York 10463/10471. While this is technically not incorrect, it is confusing.
We got an invitation to a party at such an address and my wife thought it was in a new part of Queens she never heard of!]
Real estate ads in the Times have separate categories for Riverdale and the Bronx.
The 10471 zip code is for the Riverdale Post office while 10463 is the Kingsbridge one.
>>>Real estate ads in the Times have separate categories for Riverdale and the Bronx. <<<
That reflects a discriminatory and possibly racist attitude by the paper of record...or perhaps what they think of attitudes of possible home buyers.
Because of the hillier topography of the Bronx, it cannot "keep up" with the Manhattan numbering. This is especially noticeable once you reach High Bridge. By the time you get to about Fordham, the Bronx is fully fifteen streets behind.
So, the Bronx splits into two numbering systems at this point. Separated by Sedgwick Avenue, streets on the eastern side of Sedgwick continue their numbering in the 190s, whilke west of Sedgwick, the numbers skip thirty to join up with the Manhattan numbering at Marble Hill and Riverdale. The break is at Kingsbridge Road; for example, along Bailey and Heath Avenues, it's 193rd, Kingsbridge, and then 229th.
www.forgotten-ny.com
being a resident of riverdale, i dont like the elitist attitude taken on by some of my neighbors. i personally am very proud to be a resident of the bronx. i spend most of my time in the morris park area. however, if anyone asks me where i am from, and i say the bronx, and then find that im from riverdale, they say "oh, thats not the bronx!" riverdale is however changing. just within 2 blocks of my house there have been 6 or so new houses built or being built within the past year or so. with population density going up, the neighborhood will certainly change. south riverdales first chain store is also in the making on johnson ave and w235th st. i understand it is going to be a blockbuster video store.
I remember that bus restructuring very well. My mother works up in Riverdale and I used to enjoy taking the M100 from home to her job on Henry Hudson Pkwy. Also, I remember the numerous fine shops along Johnson Ave and 235th ST? (or was it 239) I went to JFK HS on the Riverdale-Marble Hill border and the SLOW bus ride up to Kappok ST
Many folks in Riverdale are still upset about a late 1980's bus restructuring:
Riverdale's primary bus service used to be the M100, which ran up to 263rd Street (most times) or 246th Street (rush hours, when the Bx7 kicked in). However, buses would routinely get lost along Amsterdam Avenue and not make it all the way to the top.
To mitigate this, the M100 was split into two routes (M100 and Bx20), and the Bx7 was extended to overlap as far down as 168th Street. As a result, Riverdale's primary bus route now had a "Bx" instead of an "M" - a very rude reminder of being part of the Bronx
What do you mean "buses would routinely get lost along Amsterdam Avenue"?
Ferdinand Cesarano
I have recently moved to Riverdale from Texas. I am bemused by the unwillingness of Riverdalians(?) to use the correct(?) Bronx, NY 10463/10471 line on their mailing addresses. Snobism at work? I'm originally from England and I thing that Bronx is much more exotic!! However I must question the logical correctness of even the use of Bronx in mailing addresses. Surely it should read New Yorn, NY 10463 - after all the street address is in New York City - do any other US cities substitute the name of the city for the name of a borough or county????
better in Queens its the area of queens not even Queens NY ie: Forest Hills, Flushing...
it stems from when queens was little citys and towns and thats why Queens has 3 different zip code prefexies
Five different ones: 110*, 111, 113, 114, 116
And there was only one city, Long Island.
*=Shared with Nassau County.
Except for Queens (and the Riverdale section of the Bronx), the address shown is the borough in which the address is located. It's Brooklyn, NY; Bronx, NY; Staten Island, NY; New York, NY. No, NEVER Manhattan, NY for some reason.
Queens is much more strongly identified with localities, although in recent years the post office is crunching everything into Flushing, Jamaica, Long Island City and Far Rockaway. That's fine if you live in one of those localities, but my parents in Whitestone were annoyed to receive mail showing them in Flushing. The wealthy people in Belle Harbor and Neponsit went absolutely ballastic seeing Far Rockaway on their mail!!
Various neighborhoods in Los Angeles also identify themselves as such. My brother lives in Van Nuys, which while in the valley, is legally part of L.A. His mail is always addressed Van Nuys, CAL. Likewise Hollywood, Encino, Westwood.
U.S. Postal Service DOES not follow city boundaries or local area, as it is common in metro-Denver, Colo. area. I've had customers complain to me about auto insurance being too expensive because of zip code in which their PO is located in Denver but they actually live in Lakewood...if they use Lakewood name, auto insurance will be much lower. I repeatedly told them that auto insurance does not base it on city name, instead they use zip code for each auto rates.
Again it would be impossible for PO to change zip code boundaries as often as city keeps annexing!
Mike the Mailman in Denver, Colo.
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
Mail will be delivered to Manhattan NY. And all the post offices have names, and you can get mail delivered to the names. But some of the names are archaic, and do not tell people where they are.
The interesting thing is that due to the rise of the direct mail industry, zip codes are used to classify neighborhoods and, therefore, people. In NYC, they do not always follow neighborhood boundaries -- Windsor Terrace is split between the Park Slope and Kensington Post Offices.
A few years back California outlawed Insurance companies from Red Lineing insurance rates. (Baseing rates by your zip code) but somehow they got around it. I used to register my car at my sister s address in Whittier, and later a cousins house which was 30 pct cheaper then my zip code. Why my Zip Codes was high, because a State University was around the corner, and so were the student housing and dorms.
since i live in south riverdale, it would actually be correct to write Spuyten Duyvil, NY 10463.. that is the actual official name of the post office on kappock
Actually, there are very few cities in the US that span multiple counties (or parishes in Louisiana, boroughs in Alaska), I know of New York, Houston and Atlanta.
The reason for the local postal address lies in the consolidation which occurred in NYC in 1898. Prior to that time, many parts of NYC were independent towns, e.g. Long Island City, Brooklyn, etc. After the consolidation, these areas kept their identity with the post office. Addresses in these areas still use the original town name despite being absorbed into greater New York City over 100 years ago.
The same rule also holds in other cities, e.g. Boston. Late in the 18th century, Boston absorbed some of its surrounding towns. To date, however, these towns are still addressed using their original names. For example, my current address is Brighton, MA., despite the fact that Brighton is a neighborhood which lies within the city limits of Boston. Brighton was an independent town well over 100 years ago.
Interestingly, Riverdale became part of New York long before the colsolidation of 1898. AFAIK, it was absorbed in the 1870s, when the "annexed district" (i.e. the northwestern Bronx) was incorporated into New York. Nonetheless, Riverdale is still somehwhat "in denial" about being part of the Bronx. Does anybody know when the "annexed district" was first incorporated into the city?
Until some time in the 1950s (I think it was 1953), "New York, NY" was the correct postal designation for both Manhattan and the Bronx. At that time, the Bronx post office was separated from the New York post office, and all the addresses in the Bronx were thereafter to be designated as "Bronx, NY". That includes Riverdale, but you are right, most people in Riverdale use "Riverdale, NY" out of snobbery - that is, because they don't want to be associated with the common image people have of the Bronx. My sister is an exception - she lives in Riverdale but refuses to participate in snobbery, always giving her return address as "Bronx, NY".
Another odd thing about the Bronx is the use of "the" with the name - people live in the Bronx, not "in Bronx", yet the postal designation is simply "Bronx". Computer-generated form letters usually fail to take this into account, resulting in sentences like "If you win our contest, you will be the envy of all your neighbors in Bronx." I wonder if there are any other towns or post office designations in the US that have an implied "the" attached to them the way the Bronx does - I doubt it.
[Another odd thing about the Bronx is the use of "the" with the name - people live in the Bronx, not "in Bronx", yet the postal designation is simply "Bronx". Computer-generated form letters usually fail to take this into account, resulting in sentences like "If you win our contest, you will be the envy of all your neighbors in Bronx." I wonder if there are any other towns or post office designations in the US that have an implied "the" attached to them the way the Bronx does - I doubt it.]
The Dalles, Oregon?
I am so glad that Paul from England/Texas/the Bronx raised the issue of postal designations in New York City. I have long lamented the failure of the Post Office to recognize the consolidation of New York City, and especially its treatment of my home borough of Queens as a suburban county.
This bugs me for two reasons: 1) because it insults me as a proud New Yorker from Queens to be considered the equivalent of a suburbanite, and 2) because it is simply wrong on the facts. The outer boroughs have been part of New York City for over 100 years, and it is long overdue for the Post Office to take notice and begin reflecting this fact.
I mean, even if Manhattan alone is to be called "New York, NY", there should at least be some official marker next to the borough or locality name in a non-Manhattan address to indicate that it is in NYC.
What I suggest (and what I personally use) is the form shown in the header: "Queens, NYC, NY". You could of course substitute any borough or community name for "Queens".
So, you'd have "Bklyn, NYC, NY", "Bronx, NYC, NY" and "Staten Is., NYC, NY"; as well as to the possibilities of "Woodhaven, NYC, NY", "Harlem, NYC, NY", "Riverdale, NYC, NY", etc.
The beauty of this plan is that it would require no change in ZIP code zones or community names, while at the same time succeding in including the important information that the locality in question is part of New York City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Queens, NYC, NY
Hank, chime in if I am wrong, but Staten Island to the Post Office is Richmond and until the 1980s(?) the bus routes were R such as R7, R10 (random numbers)
It was changed when the borough officially changed it's name from Richmond. I think it's because people confused the busses with the new R-44 (I know that there was no R44 bus, but still).
Oh yes, I forgot to say that this was in 1975.
I understand wht you are saying, but you have to understand the rest of the nation outside NYC.
to be considered a city, town or whatever, you have to have a official zip code. For example I live in Laurelton, Queens. The zip code used for Laurelton is 11413. 11413 belongs to Springfield Gardens. So technically when someone sends mail they are suppose to address it to Springfield Gardens, NY. This situation only occurs in the city of New York, which includes 5 counties which are 5 boroughs; Richmond County (Staten Island), Queens County (Queens), Kings County (Brooklyn), Bronx County (Bronx), New York County (Manhattan). Outside of these places everything returns to normal as far as city and zip code.
As long as you have a zip code correct, you can put any city you want and it will still get there....
Frank D
I used to live in Briarwood, the zip was 11435 which is Jamaica. Even after they opened up a Briarwood post office on Queens Blvd., the zip hasn't changed. Actually, Queens is the only borough were you have to address to letter according to where you live, (Forest Hills, Jamaica, Rego Park, etc.) The other boroughs are addressed by borough, Brookly, Bronx Staten Island and New York, New York. I imagine if you adress something to Queens, New York, it will eventually get there.
Mark, Does the Briarwood Postoffice say Briarwood Branch and under that Jamaica, New York? Or just Briarwood, New York?
My grandmother still gets mail from people that address it Queens, NY, and it seemed to be getting to her in a 2 day time manner according to the post date on the envelope.
Frank D
I live in Queens too, and offically Forest Hills should be Flushing also, ( 113-- zip ) but it goes by forest Hills,
According to the post office if the letter has just a street # and zip code it will get there since the zip code tell the city adn state...
If you put down a postal bar code, do you need to write the zip code at all?
I don't know, but I do know that, if the ZIP+4 uniquely identifies a single mailing address, the post office will insist on the redundancy and will not deliver an item addressed solely to that ZIP+4.
Zip+4 does not uniquely identify a mailing address, only a range. Zip+6 does. The +4 and +6 codes are also subject to change and might not be accurate after 3 months.
Perhaps in NYC, ZIP+4 does not uniquely identify a mailing address.
I do know, though, that I moved two years ago from one apartment to a different apartment within the same building in Urbana, IL. The ZIP+4 changed. In fact, there was a different ZIP+4 for each apartment. It seems pretty likely that each ZIP+4 uniquely identified an address, down to the apartment, in that case. (I don't claim that a ZIP+4 will always uniquely identify an address.)
in my building the zip + 4 is different for group of floor each 4 or 5 floors has each own +4
All the +4 does is designate where the address is physically. On a street, every address on one side has the same +4. For example: my zip is 21234-6938. Every house on the north side of my street has 6938. That helps the carrier pre-sort the mail to be delivered. The south side has a different +4. And so it goes.
The only oddity to +4 is that post office boxes get a +4 equal to the last four digits of the box number. So, the address of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum is P.O Box 4881, Baltimore, MD 21211-4881.
Zip +4 really helps bulk mailers, who get a knock-off on postage if they do the sorting instead of the USPS.
[Zip +4 really helps bulk mailers, who get a knock-off on postage if they do the sorting instead of the USPS.]
How wonderful, more junk mail (sigh).
All the +4 does is designate where the address is physically. On a street, every address on one side has the same +4. For example: my zip is 21234-6938. Every house on the north side of my street has 6938. That helps the carrier pre-sort the mail to be delivered. The south side has a different +4. And so it goes.
As I posted earlier, I moved within a building in 1998 and my ZIP+4 changed (from 61801-2360 to 61801-2372). The building has only 24 apartments but it has seven ZIP+4's (one per four apartments plus one for apartmentless addresses) -- so, if you have access to the relevant information, you can tell me not only which building I lived in but which half of which floor I lived on. My current building, with 12 apartments, has three ZIP+4's. And my parents' building in Manhattan has four ZIP+4's.
Actually, carriers like me does NOT sort these ZIP+4, it is sorted by computers in which it is ready for us to take it out to the streets, it is called DPS (Delivery Point Sequencing). Each ZIP+4 does not cover north or south side of each block, it could be 7 houses to one ZIP+4. There are apartments that have serveral different ZIP+4, this helps DPS sort apartment numbers in order. example is one ZIP+4 is one section of the mailboxes, you can see 4,5,6 boxes in one section, this usually have their own ZIP+4 and we as carriers can put DPS mails in order without having go back and forth in the mailbox areas!
And I wonder why would you post postal question on SubTalk? this has nothing to do with subways. If you want to post this kind of questions, kindly post it to alt.snail-mail newsgroups or some kind of postal message boards.
Mike the Mailman
In my apartment building in the Bronx every apartment has a different +4 number.
Peace,
Andee
Only on a short block with only private homes would the whole block have the same Zip+4 code. My BUILDING doesn't even have the same Zip+4 code for all the apartments. If you look up my address in the USPS database without specifying an apartment number, the +4 suffix is 2570. Specify the apartment and it is 2554. I think each code covers about 8 apartments. Oddly enough, it isn't done by floor. My 2554 code covers some (not all) apartments on my floor, and some on the next floor up. Weird.
This means that you are looking at 8 mailboxes in one section (one key to open a section of 8 boxes) thus, that section has it's own ZIP+4, then the next section of mailboxes has another ZIP+4. (This usually works that way in Denver, but that's not the real case, each section could have 1 or more ZIP+4)
Mike the Mailman
I don't remember, I'll have to swing by there and take a look. The only thing I remember is it has the 11435 zip code, the same as the Archer Avenue post office.
I believe that Briarwood is a substation of Jamaica.
Clearly it is. The zip at that station is 11435, the same as Archer Avenue. The Briarwood Community Association for years has been trying to get a separate zip code for Briarwood, with no success. They have changed the official name of the Van Wyke Blvd. station to Van Wyke Briarwood. The new name is on the metal signs on the polls. There is no effort being made to change the tiles.
Queens and parts of Los Angeles are the only areas I'm aware of that mandate living in the past. The independent municipalities of Forest Hills, etc. ceased to exist upon unification with the City of New York, yet after 102 years we still must pretend it never happpened.
Actually, it would make more sense for the U.S. Postal Service to replace ALL borough and neighborhood names with New York, NY. We're part of one big city - let's just recognize that fact and move on already.
Yeah, but you have so many street names that repeat in each borough, it would get too confusing. Everyone has a Broadway, Brooklyn has an avenue and street system with east and west like Manhattan, it would never work. Besides, if we can't all have the same area code, well youknow.
Thank you - i could not have explained it better myself.......although I did try!
Question: Why are Queens building address numbers hyphenated (i.e. 86-22)? Something I've always wondered about...
The upper Riverside Drive addresses are too. I like it, it makes it clearer.
The address (i.e. your example 86-22) means: the 86th block, 22nd lot. Let's say the address was 86-22 249th Street. That would put the building between 86th Avenue and 87th Avenue. The Avenues (and their associated Drives, Roads, Terraces) run roughly east-west; Streets (and their associated Places, Lanes, Courts) run north-south.
Only an Avenue or a Street can change the prefix of the building number.
Wayne
Your explanation can pretty well apply to any urban grid...but was there a specific reason why the hyphen was inserted? A quirk in the zoning board's rules or members, perhaps?
Also, in Decater (spelling?) Illinois there is a "324th street", the highest numbered street in the entire US. And it's in a city half the size of Staten Island.
Drive on Interstate 10 west of Phoenix about 40 miles or so, and you come to an exit which I believe is called "477th Aveune" which is out in the middle of the desert, but still in Maricopa County.
Must be some very optimistic planning people in Arizona.
The way Phoenix is growing, it might make it.
Aren't some streets in the Seattle area carrying higher numbers than 324? And don't forget the odd street numbering patterns in Utah - especially the Salt Lake City area - where you get streets like West 6000 North.
Wayne
loking at the color of the sign it looks like queens before all street signs turned green w/ white letter each brough had its own colored signs,Man Yellow w/ black, Queens White w/ blue Brooklyn Black w/ white
Its not clear but the sign is deffinitly not Black with white letters... so it looks like a train running through Queens maybe the M or J
Do other subway systems have problems with a buildup of steel dust in tunnels and stations? Is this unique to New York because of 24 hr. operation? Heavier traffic and more frequent service? Or is it simply poor maintenance?
I'd say the problem is fairly uniform throughout the industry, but obviously a function of how often (or if) the tunnels are cleaned. Its probably also a function of track/flange lubrication, tread vs. disk brakes, etc also. No shortage of steel dust here in Boston, or in Phila.
I heard Montreal experiences quite a problem with rubber dust from
the tires on the trains. Perhaps Paris and Mexico City are the same.
Since the NYC Transit System went to composition brake shoes, the amount of steel dust in the system has become negligable.
*[Since the NYC Transit System went to composition brake shoes, the amount of steel dust in the system has become negligable.]*
How long ago did this switch occur? It seems to me that the steel dust level in the subway is very high--a shame, really, because it makes newly renovated stations look dingy in a short time. The Broadway-Lafayette station, for example, couldn't have been renovated more than four or five years ago and already the walls above the mezzanine are beginning to turn dark grey due to accumulating steel dust. I can bet that the new mosaics on the Lex platform at Grand Central will look even worse in only a couple years.
What you see is not steel dust. The composite shoes give off dust. There is normal dirt and grime too. There are a tremendous number of air-bourne pollutants but they are not 'steel dust'.
What lines have the worst steel (tunnel) dust?
From what I can remember it was pretty thick down on the lower level of 59th street (4/5).
If the 1999 remake of the 1980 movie has been discussed here, I must have missed it, so I hesitantly bring it up. I saw it last night, and at about the one hour point there is a brief subway scene, less than two minutes in length. The scene supposedly stars two trains of Slant R-40's. The two cars involved are 4294 and 4464. There are supposedly two trains involved, but in one shot it would appear that the two cars are coupled together, perhaps as the 4th and 5th cars in the same train. The trains are supposed to be going uptown, but seem to be running on a downtown track. The viewer is to think that two different stations were involved, one being 158th St, and the other unknown. Since I am unaware of a 158th St station, I am assuming that it was filmed at a doctored station somewhere, and that only one train and one station were used. Has anybody on the site seen the 1999 remake of "Gloria", starring Sharon Stone, and can you enlighten me as to where it was filmed?
Am I the only one who has seen this movie?
No, you're not the only one -- but you may be the only one to watch it in its entirety. It seems like it has been constantly on my TV for the last few weeks as HBO is playing it again and again. I haven't watched for more than 10 minutes at a time, though -- and thus haven't seen the subway scene.
At least now I have a reason to watch the whole thing. It's amazing the little things that keep me happy.
Chuck
I saw the movie intermittently this weekend, and caught a piece of the scene in the subway. It looked like an express IND station was being used, with doctored 158 St. signage. My guess is that either 2 Avenue or Prospect Park-7th Ave. could have been the sites, but I can't recall if there was a shot of the color of the wall tiles. I beleive the Prospect Park station was used in the Rosie Perez Subway Stories movie.
Hope this helps.
Church Avenue station was also used (doctored AND undoctored) in the "Subway Stories", as was Broad Street and the aforementioned Prospect Park. The vignette with the saxophonist and the cantor was ALL Church Avenue.
When's the next time "Gloria" will be on? I'm too lazy to look in the TV Guide :o>
Wayne
The new version does not seem to be listed for the next few weeks, but the 1980 version is going to be on Cinemax in about two weeks. I saw the 1999 version on a rental tape, I'm not sure it has been on TV yet unless it was on PPV.
The 1999 version was on HBO about a month or so ago.
Some Blockbuster Video Stores are selling them as PVT's (previously viewed tapes) for only $4.99. That is a reasonable price for a movie filmed in New York, with a small amount of subway footage in it...... providing the copy you get isn't butchered up by a previous viewer!
Yeah, that's for sure. Once I rented a movie, and in the middle, someone who previously rented it actually used it to tape some bedroom antics (a duet!!) with their camcorder. They actually went through the trouble of blocking the anti-record hole! The REALLY funny thing was that when I brought it to the attention of the folks at the video store, they all laughed and tried to blame one of the employees!
That must have been a shock! I never ran into anything like that, but I have seen many damaged tapes. I rented one a few years ago where most of the tape was in reverse on the spool, with the dull side out. I wonder what condition some VCR's must be in or what must some people do to their VCR's while playing the tape to mess it up so badly.
You have GOT to see this version, there is the most HILARIOUS scene near the end of it- supposedly this Gloria character has told this little kid to go to this place in Pittsburgh, going on the train. Well, believe it or not, they show this little 7(?) year old kid getting on a NJT commuter coach at Hoboken; and THATS supposed to be the train to Pittsburgh!! John Cassavates (who wrote and directed this version..and starred his wife Gena Rowlands) was notorious for putting together productions on the fly like this..although there is a nice scene on the West Side IRT {where she utters the immortal "You let a woman beat ya..You let a woman get the best of ya!" to some mob guys, gun pointed at them as the train doors close
I hope to real soon! After seeing the remake, I am very curious about the 1980 version. If you say the electric cars at Hoboken are in it, I really want to see it.
Nah...I believe its just a push/pull set of Bombardier cars...
"Architect's Challenge: To Make DeKalb Station Flow"
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-dekalb-renovate.html
-- David
Chicago, IL
Looks good if it comes to pass. Thing is, DeKalb was renovated once before, in the early 1980s, but it was a real cut rate half-assed job. They put those slippery tiles on the station platforms, installed slats on the fluorescent lights (which made DeKalb incredibly dim: they were soon removed) and some of the ceramics were covered with bland tilework. This was still the era when the old ceramics were thought to be leftovers of an, er, forgotten age and not a part of the brave new world: cf. the BMT Broadway Line, which covered all the ceramics in the late 60s.
Those ceramics wait under the gray, tomato, blue and yellow tiles, ready to blossom once more.
What I like about DeKalb, and I hope they don't change, is the message boards that tell you what train is on the way.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The station undoubtedly needs a do-over. Aside from its dinginess, I remember one afternoon last year seeing a big slab of concrete on the platform that fell off from the ceiling.
The article mentioned that elevators would be installed linking the mezzanine and platform levels. How will that be accomplished? Wouldn't that require a larger mezzanine? And if they do extend the mezzanine, aren't there offices and control towers right on the mezzanine level?
It is also undoubtedly nice to see a Brooklyn Tech graduate work on that station. Tens of thousands of Brooklyn Tech students used that station since the 1930's, icluding myself. I guess someone should take some pictures before they begin renovations.
02/04/2000
David Cole,
I clicked on that url you posted received a "page not found" listing. Can this be corrected?
Bill Newkirk
>>>I clicked on that url you posted received a "page not found" listing. Can this be corrected? <<<
That's becasue the skinflints at the Times take down all articles after one day. To look at it now, you gotta pay up.
No you don't, just e-mail me!
I'll send Bill a copy now.
I forked over my ten bits and got a hold of the article.
(The following contains 51 words.)
"The original mosaics on the track walls are to be as fresh-looking as when they were installed early in the last century and will again be in sharp focus...
New white tiles, as sparkling as a freshly scrubbed bathtub at home, are to cover the walls in place of grimy, cracked or missing tiles."
They have their work cut out for them in the above respect - however,
it looks like they're going to send in the troops - no doubt the same folks that rescued 95th Street, 36th Street and Pacific Street from oblivion. There are LOTS of missing tiles in the frieze and tablets. Some of them are barely clinging to the wall. This is typical Mud Wall tile construction, so it shouldn't be that difficult to fix. They have to get behind the spots that are starting to pull away from the wall and re-cement them. As for the missing pieces, careful attention to color matching should be given, as was done at the other stations. And no doubt they're going to break out that vile-smelling glaze again, like they did at 36th Street. That stuff takes your breath away. I walked into a cloud of it a few years back at 36th Street. The workmen applying it were wearing their masks for good reason.
I am looking forward to seeing this renovation and once it starts, will report on its progress. If any station needs work, De Kalb Avenue does. After he's finished, maybe we could send the architect over to Chambers Street and let him have a go at THAT one.
Wayne
yeah i wanna know because i heard it on the news down here in pittsburgh,and i write so i wanted to know.
am one
They were apparently 'train surfing' on the roof of a moving subway train in Brooklyn, when they both fell off and were killed.
If you are a tagger from Pittsburgh, have you tried the latest fad - "Coupler Catching". It's very simple. Stand between the two running rails with your back to the train. As the train approaches, begin to run and just before you get hit, do a vertical leap so that you land straddling the coupler. Let me know how you make out....
Excellent point!
On a freight RR, that would be a JUMBO size KNUCKLE SANDWICH!!!
Very simple, two objects tried to be in the same place at the same time. Guess which object won that contest??
"Very simple, two objects tried to be in the same place at the same time. Guess which object won that contest??"
The one with brains.
Alan Glick
The one made of solid steel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They tried to ride on top of a moving subway train, but a low-hanging overpass beam kind of settled the question in a manner of speaking.
On a Batman toon, Batman rescues two "surfers" from the top of a subway car just as it goes into a tunnel. They boys are then told how stupid they were.
The toon predates the actual event, wonder if they got the idea from it.....
However, the Dark Knight was not around to save those two in our Gotham.
Has the E ever seen regular service in Brooklyn before this week?
www.forgotten-ny.com
YES!
The 1968 TA map I have in front of me shows the E as:
E-Queens Blvd, 8th Ave, Fulton. It ran from 179th Street, Jamaica to Rockaway Park & Far Rockaway.
Note from map:
Only rush hour trains carry Euclid Ave, Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park signs, and skip 23rd Street-8th Ave & Spring st. All other times trains run between Chambers Street-Hudson Terminal and 179th Street, Jamaica.
Not shown above, E trains leave Lefferts Blvd. 7:20AM to 7:40AM Mon-Fri and arrive there 5:45PM-6:05PM
I hope this helps you.
Look at the way things are designed. The E can get on the Fulton Express, which runs directly to Brooklyn. Clearly the original plan was to have two expresses to Brooklyn, one or two locals to WTC, and no switching. And you used to have three locals on the 8th Avenue line -- two to WTC.
Then ridership fell, especially in Bed Stuy. Bye Bye AA and Fulton Express in Brooklyn.
Yes.
before the WTC was built
Before the WTC, the trains still stopped there. It was then known as Chambers-Hudson Terminal
While the original IND planned for more than one Fulton express, there has never been more than one. When the E was the express in Brooklyn, the A ran local and the CC ran to WTC.
The IND SYSTEM planned the Fulton st. line as a four track subway to south Jamaica near Nassau County border with connections to the Rockaway and Van Wyck Bvld subway lines. The Fulton st route was to have to river tunnels to Manhattan[ Cranberry street and Court st stub to the 2 Avenue line].Due to the failure, the 2 ave line was never built and the service plan was never put into effect. Thus,the Court st. line was to be the Fulton st.local without a Manhattan entry[south jamica was scrapped too.the TA couldn't decided where to place the route and funding diappeared for some reason].Without a separate route for the local service,Fulton street service was underserved. this continued until this very day, with both 8th av.exp/local crammed through the EAST RIVER tunnel at Cranberry st. The Fulton st local from Court st never ran past Hoyt st,while the A ran local until Eucild Av. terminal opened. This problem could be solved somewhat by diverting some local service to the RUTGERS ST. TUBE. This may cause some problems[Jay st crossover in front of F trains]but this can be worked out with a few ajustments.
It's too bad the plan wasn't put into effect, but you can't say the Fulton St line in under-served. In fact, it might be the best in the borough.
Since it was never extended out to Jamaica, it doesn't bet those passengers. And since the population of Bed-Stuy fell by 40 percent in a decade 1970-80, it doesn't have as much demand there either. It would be nice to have more service, but the Fulton St line is not overcrowded. You're better off than those that rely on the Manhattan Bridge.
The problem on the Fulton St. line, like many lines, is that everyone packs onto the express like lemmings. So they increase the number of expresses, and cut the number of C locals to the minimum, but the express is still crowded, while the local is not.
What to do? If we had a few extra cars, I'd turn Utica and Nostrand into local-only stops, so everyone in Bed Stuy would have to ride the C, instead of packing on the A. Then I'd increase the number of C's to at least 10 at rush hour, cutting the number of A's if necessary. (Maybe the local stations could keep the E).
In other words, make it like the other end of the line (with its express from 125th to 59th), the close in people get the local just for themselves, and the far out people get the express. That seems to work best.
Make the A a Local and the C/E Express on Fulton
The AA wasn't eliminated. It was absorbed into the C, not before becoming the K.
Change the r to an l in Prague, then you'll be
The Plague.
That will similar to going from Bombay Best to
Bombay Pest.
Ahh, but why did I change it to the Prague? Becuase of that very reason! I would have changed it to Vienna, had I not discovered that.
That was when the E ran express along Fulton St. I have that same map. It doesn't actually show E service going to Lefferts Blvd., but that footnote clarifies that. The 1967 TA map DOES show a broken light blue line (the E's original color) drawn out to Lefferts Blvd. along with the A's solid blue line. The line notes on the 1967 map were different than on later maps. They were written in essay form, it seems. The E notes were something like this: E trains run express between 42nd St. and Chambers St., continuing onto Euclid Ave. and Far Rockaway, with some trains terminating at Lefferts Blvd., during rush hours. During non-rush hours, trains operate as locals (AARRRRGHHH!)along 8th Ave. terminating at Chambers St.-Hudson Terminal (The WTC didn't exist back then).
Yes. Originally, the E served the Houston St line from 1933-1940. It then saw rush hour service on the Fulton St. line until 1976. Sometimes it was an express, sometimes it was a local.
I remember the E on Houston to 2nd or Bdwy Laffayette in the early 50s and the D to Hudson Terminal. After the Culver connection in 1954, the F ran on Houston and the E to Hudson Term, and the D to CI
according the the 1974 map on this site the A and E went to Far Rockaway and the AA and CC ended at Hudson TErm/ WTC
So what train ran on Fulton?
The A.
How is that possible if Houston only opened in 1936?
The E served Houston st AND Smith st. from 1936 to 1940. It was replaced by the F. The A served Smith st.untill 1936 when the FULTON ST line opened to Rockaway Av. E trains ran to 2 ave until the 1948 when it was extended to Eucild Av rush hours.Non-rush hours trains went to Hudson Terminal.
Yes. Before the 70's, the E went to Euclid and the C to WTC.
1976 to be exact. Also, E trains that ran to Brooklyn ran express in Manhattan.
And for several years during the early 70s, southbound rush hour E trains used the lower level at 42nd St. I remember seeing signs announcing the upcoming service change when that pattern was implemented.
Fulton St. express service flipflopped between the A and E for some time before the E was permanently cut back to WTC.
Having worked in Long Island the past few years, I haven't dealt with NYC rush hours lately.
A new wrinkle I've noticed is orange jackets stationed on the platforms, encourging "let 'em off first" and "move into the car" and the like. They don't actually push them into the cars like in Tokyo, but almost.
How long have they been there?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've noticed them for quite some time now...
Maybe as far back as Feb. of last year. (but it is only a theory)
Can anyone else shed some light on the start of this phenomenon?
Stu
They have them stationed at the busier stations, Lex and 53rd, Roosevelt Ave, Grand Central, etc..
they each have a flach light with witch the signle the CTO when the doors are clear to close, and they try to keep the people moving
They're actually needed at really packed platforms. I see them every workday at Broadway/ENY on the A/C platform.
It kind of reminds me of those images of Japanese subway platforms with the 'rush-hour pushers'.
I noticed that most of the guys are carrying flashlights and use them to signal the Conductor when they should close or open the doors. At least I believe that's what they're doing.
Doug aka BMTman
Once upon a time, they were at all the major, really busy stations during rush hours. With job cut backs, alot of those platform jobs were gotten rid of. In the IRT, you can find them during rush hours at Grand Cenrtal, 51/Lex, Fulton/Lex, and depending on availability, TS, Wall/7 Ave, 59/Lex, 86/Lex, Bowling Green, B'klyn Bridge, Columbus Circle, 14/Lex. During GOs, they can be found at all sorts of places, depending on service changes. Most of them are CR, usually restricted for some reason. And, as everyone has figured out, the flashlights are used to communicate with the CRs -- up and down is okay to close, side to side is stop (or Reopen).
It was first started at Grand Central as a pilot program in 1997. They also painted orange spaces where the doors are supposed to open, made the stairs one-way and included automated station announcements.
The E reroute made me think of a question:
Is it possible to run a subway line through four boroughs *without reversing the train* at some point? Has it ever been done in an emergency?
It would have to involve the IND's Bronx trackage. The only way I could see it would be to run it through Coney Island OR use the little used connection near Essex Street and run it along the Broadway Elevated and end up at Parsons- Archer.
www.forgotten-ny.com
All you would need is a "KK" type line that goes up to the Concourse instead of 57st Street:Jamaica El in QueensBway El in Bklyn6th Av and CPW in ManhattanConcourse line in Bronx
I think the C did it back in the 80s or early 90s. From Bedford Park Blvd, out to Rockaway during Rush Hours, Concourse Line Bx 8th Ave Manhatten Fulton Bklyn, Rockaway Queens
Yes, the "C" did run regular to Rockaway at that time. Making it the longest one fare single seat ride in the system at that time. 31 or 32 miles I believe.
Peace,
Andee
The C did not run from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park but it was still not as long as the A from 207 to Far Rockaway 32.39 miles. The longest possible route which has been run was the E from 179 to Far Rock,36+ miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe the route the C took prior to 1992 (Bedford Pk. Bvd. to Rockaway Pk.) is actually longer than the A route from 207th St. to Mott Ave. I'm not sure, but looking at the subway map, it has to be.
BTW, only alternate C trains went to Rockaway. The others terminated at Euclid. I once rode the entire C line from BPB to Rockaway Park in 1986 on an un-GOH'd R10. Took almost 2 hours.
It is longer (I do not know exact miles) Bedford Park Blvd. is further north than 207th Street in Manhattan.
Peace,
Andee
But remember, the Rockaway part that the A travels on is longer than what the C (now the shuttle) used. I was just wondering if the longer length of the Mott Ave. branch cancels out the longer length of the C line to BPB.
No, it doesn't
Peace,
Andee
.Chris: I made a mistake in my earlier posting. I meant to say that the CC and later the C did run between Bedford Park and Rockaway Park at one time. Further checking I find that the A between 207 and Far Rock may be in a near dead heat with the above C route. The TA says that the longest (current) route is the A between 207 and Far Rock at 32.39 miles. This is from a 1979 source when the CC was running between BPB and Rockaway Pk. However when I checked another source I came up with 32.39 for the A and 32.49 for the CC. Note that the discrepency is one tenth of a mile,about the length of a subway platform. I wonder if anyone has the exact mileage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Of course this controversy could be ended by having the C start at 205 instead of BPB.
Or from 168th as it is now.
That was directed to #9306WF (I hate those cars!)
If Larry says it, it must be so. Are you an Exec for the Transit Authority? I have to hand it to you, you're the guy I've learned the most from. You are a walking encyclopedia for the NY Subway. Keep the good info coming.
I remembering waiting back then for a A train atJFK/connection and the C came thru. I still waited for the A and it finally caught up with the C at Utica.
Was that an A train of slant R-40s, perhaps?
So what's longer this month, the E or the A?
Dear Humans II ???
The longest possible route is the E from 179 St to Far Rock at 36.42 miles followed by the E from 179 St to Rock Park at 34.92. After this comes the A at 32.39 according to the TA however as I said to Chris this may be in a tie with the CC/C from Bedford Park to Rockaway Park.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always thought the old #2 route from 241st St. to New Lots was nearly as long as the A route to Rockaway. At least it appears to on the subway map.
Chris: The #2 between 241 and New Lots is the longest IRT route at about 26.72 miles. The #5 between 241 and New Lots is next with 26.12 miles.
These are the longest IRT routes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Dont you mean 238-NL?
I worded that answer a poorly. I should have said that the second longest IRT line is from 241 to NL via Lexington. Although no trains currrently run between these two points the #5 did so until fairly recently.
Larry,RedbirdR33
They special rush hour 2 that run between NL and 241St....
3TM
Bx-Man-Bk No Queens, short about 1 mile
Larry,
I note your interesting information on the longest distances on the various routes/lines.
There are a lot of distance details on this site in the timelines, but unfortunantely they are not all complete; I also have the book 'The Subway' by Fischler which again has many details but not all.
Do you know where one can obtain all distances, please? Even station to station and length of total lines?
Various sources give distances on the London tubes so I wonder what is available about NY?
Ian: The Electric Railroads Association printed up an IRT map circa 1930's with complete station to station mileage and timings for all IRT subway and el lines. The August 1968 issue of the ERA New York Division Bulletin has mileage for all of Division B but only for the major stations. Perhaps if you contact them they might be able to send them to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was asking if the current E rerouted to Euclid is longer than the A. Although that seems unlikely.
Humans: I do not have the precise mileage for the Archer Avenue Line.
However the E from 179 Street to Euclid Avenue was 25.04 miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It would probably be less than that, since the Archer Ave. line doesn't go as far as the Hillside Ave. portion.
Does anyone know what is the longest single rapid transit line in No America without a change of train. I think it is BARTS Colma-Pittsburg line over 40 miles.
Right! I forgot about the Rockaways, which are in Queens.
The C, from 1976-1992, ran from the Bronx, through Manhattan, Brooklyn, and it terminated in Rockaway Pk, Queens.
#7's come more frequently than any other train in the MTA. Headways during rush hours are only a couple of minutes.
The reason they can run so many #7's, I've heard, is that the #7 doesn't share its route with any other train, unless you count the express/local #7's.
That being the case, why can't they run more L trains? After all, the L is also an "only child" with no other lines sharing its trackage, at present. Is it the lack of an express track?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ive lived along the L line all my life and it just seems to be the forgotten stepchild of the MTA. Even when there are delays and shutdowns you dont even hear bout it on the news like the rest of the lines
If "only children" can have shorter headways, what about the #6? It could certainly add trains, especially if they weren't so paranoid about getting every last person off before going around the loop.
The problem is that everyone packs on the express, and there is remaining capacity on the local even now.
You know the Canarsie line once had an express. Expresses used AB's and immediately preceeded Multis that ran local. By the time the express caught up to its leader (Myrtle Avenue), the leader turned on the center track and the express continued. This was feasible since the AB's and Multis had varying acceleration rates. Since this happened before I was born I'll defer to anyone with genuine experience riding it. But that's how I was told it was done!
They also thought about skip-stop on the "L" but never did it, that I know of.
I used the "L" regularly from 1991-93 and sporadically all the time I lived in NYC. I loved it, usually reliable (especially in snow), but slow as molasses and always a transfer required in Manhattan (except when I went to NYU).
When I worked for the City I thought a neat idea would have been to extend the L from 8th Ave up the "high line" to the Javits Center, but the #7 line extension seemed to be a better idea, so it won out (such as things were). Too bad, anything to save the high line would be a good idea at this point.
Another idea I put on paper would have been a "shoofly" around the S-curve, most likely between Graham and Jefferson. I thought about a 1-track tunnel under the Newtown Creek that would have allowed some limited peak flow leapfrog service, similar to what PATCO does in Camden. Admittedly, though, demand would be weak, but it would probably have been easy to build.
TRIVIA QUESTION: Does anyone know the reason why Morgan Avenue and Bushwick-Aberdeen (I think those are the two) have tiled columns instead of steel? I've noticed this but never heard an answer. Was it an experiment, or a response to some unique construction challenge?
From what other SubTalkers have told me: tiled columns are required by law due to Fire Regulations whenever subway stations run beneath buildings.
So I assume at Bushwick-Arberdeen the station was built beneath (or partially beneath) some dwelling of some kind.
Doug aka BMTman
DOUG: Interesting, Thanks! CONRAD
Bushwick-Aberdeen station sits beneath dwellings both on Aberdeen Street and DeSales Place, hence the mandates for tiled columns.
As for Morgan Avenue, it runs just parallel to Harrison Place and McKibbin Street, and beneath buildings on the north sides of both streets.
Wayne
When I rode both 14th Street expresses in the early 1950s, both (#16 to Canarsie and #13 to Lefferts) operated with Multi-Sections. Certainly there were no 14th Street-Fulton Street expresses with Standards, because the section of el from Atlantic Avenue past Grant Avenue (the old "City Line") wouldn't have taken the weight of the Standards. I remember locals to Myrtle Avenue more often with Standards, the opposite of what Conrad Misek mentions.
I didn't live in that area so my riding was not regular, though my sister lived in Ridgewood from around 1945 until late 1953 and I frequently used the train to get there (when I didn't ride the DeKalb Avenue trolley while that was still running).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There reportedly was a problem with the vetilation system in the East River tunnel that allowed only one L train at a time to pass through in either direction, which would really cut down on the frequency of trains. Someone else might be able to tell you if that problem has been fixed.
It was fixed. I'm not sure, but it's a car shortage that keeps the TA from increasing L service at this time. Blame the morons who decided to scrap, rather than mothball, the R30 redbirds in 1993.
12 trains per hour during the rush sounds more than adequate for the L.
[12 trains per hour during the rush sounds more than adequate for the L.]
A couple of mornings per month, just for variety's sake, I get off the LIRR at East New York and take the L from Atlantic to Union Square. I usually get on the L a few minutes after 8 am. There generally are seats available at Atlantic and sometimes as far as Myrtle. The trains do not become uncomfortably crowded until Bedford, which is of course the last stop in Brooklyn.
Based on this experience, I'd say that more rush-hour service on the L would be nice, but isn't by any means essential.
I attended the old Stuyvesant HS (on 15th between 1st and 2nd) in the mid-60's. I seem to remember that in rush hours some of the Canarsie Line (pre letter days) eastbound trains would terminate at Myrtle Avenue rather than going out to Rockaway Parkway (being sure to come to a full stop at 105th St). Perhaps this turnaround could be reinstituted depending on where the demand originates.
The major reason for the difference in rush hour train frequency is the NYCT schedule makers. They are currently up to 29 tph on the Flushing Line, down from a peak of 36 tph a few decades ago. This is within the theoretical peak of 30 tph for the 14th St Line.
The difference between the #7's theoretical peak of 40 tph and the 14th St Line's 30 is due to the configuration of the Manhattan terminals. The tail tracks extending to 8th Ave at Times Square permit Flushing trains to enter the station faster than 14th St trains entering the bumper ended 8th Av terminal.
While both lines do not share their tracks with other lines, the Flushing Line is more isolated. Moving or removing cars from the Corona Yard to other parts of the IRT takes half a day. By contrast, the ENY yard could be emptied in a flash, should the Southern District require an immediate car infusion.
When the 7 was doing 38TPH, weren't they discharging at Times Sq and a motorman would jump on the Queens end and they would deadhead the train out, keying by most signals??
I know even now an arriving crew waits for the "next" train, instead of having the T/O rush to the other end of his train.
The #7 ran only 36 tph. Reverse direction trains terminated at 111th as well as Main St because Main St can handle only 30 tph. Trains originated at Willets Pt and 111th as well as Main St.
One would assume that a crew change or at least a T/O change is necessary to turn trains around in 180 seconds. Just walking from one end to another takes 110 seconds. That's an operational detail - not a physical constraint.
Keying by was [is] not necessary to maintain these headways.
>>That's an operational detail - not a physical constraint.
Well give em roller blades >G<
Excuse my ignorance, but I thought "jeying-by" required the motorman to get out of the train and descend to the tracks to do the "keying" Is this correct since I would think that if a motorman had to do this every couplke of minutes as in the case just mentined, itd be a pain as well as time consuming...
No, keying requires the T/O to move so slowly (about 2 km/h) that the front wheels enter the next block before the trip pushes the emergency brake. Then, the trip will descend, at which point the train can go FULL SPEED right into a train in the same block.
I used to railfan the 14th Street/Canarsie Line a lot before it even became the "L", and I just don't think the patronage has ever been there to warrant service at 30 tph.
If there were more meaningful connections along the line or a track connection with the IND Crosstown Line, then I think high service would be needed and would make the 14th Street tunnel more than an underutilized asset.
The original plans of the Broadway EL had trains coming of the Williamsburg Bridge into the Centre st line with a connection to the Broadway subway line via a short tunnel. Does anyone think this would work or should be concidered as part of TA expandtion? New connections are needed today to give riders more choices.
(Connect the Broadway Brooklyn Line to the Broadway Manhattan Line)
I'd put this one way down the list, since we already built a connection from the Broadway Brooklyn line to the 6th Avenue line, and it isn't even used. Did you know it was there? Yep, the J or Z could run north on 6th Avenue through Midtown if they wanted it to.
Now there is one 63rd Street tunnel possiblity no one considered -- running the J/Z north as a 6th Avenue local, through the 63rd Street tunnel, and out to 71st Street as a Queens Blvd local. The M would run south. With the A/B tracks out of action, perhaps another DeKalb train would use the Montigue tunnel and Nassau Street, terminating at Chambers.
I thought of that one before. Jamaica Term to Jamaica Term.
I prefer "6th Ave local from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center via tunnel and bridge".
The problem with this idea is that this routing would be limited to shorter trains (because of the BMT Eastern Division limits) than are desirable to run on the Queens Boulevard Line.
I still think a proposal is need that would make the 14th Street line more useful since this is the most underutilized of the East River crossings.
If they had built the 63rd Street "super express" line along the LIRR right of way through Maspeth to Jamaica, an extension from the L along Metropolitan Ave. could have been connected to it to creat another line into Manhattan. But other than that, it's tough to see what you could connect the L up to (the G?, the J/Z towards Jamaica?) that would attract new riders.
It's all pie in the sky, but Brooklyn has four underused tunnels and a couple of cracking, rusty bridges. Surely something could be done?
One option is the forever on the drawing boards Utica Avenue subway. Rather than hooking it into the crowded IRT, perhaps it could run north through the planned Fulton St line connection, up Broadway and Bushwick, and into the 14th street Eastern line. The Jamaica Avenue El could also be extended (eliminating the curve) and run into the 14th Street-Eastern Line. So you'd have three services, with perhaps 8 to 12 train each, converging on that tunnel. The 14th Street line could be extended east, to a higher capacity terminal.
Note that in this scenario there would be a station within walking distance of every place served by the Broadway El, except Ridgewood.
Another option is to serve Southwest Queens (Maspeth, Middle Village, Glendale) from a branch off Metropolitan Ave, if NIMBY fever ever dies down.
The 14th St line is a great line -- to bad they didn't add a third express track. But even local, it gets from Broadway Junction to 14th Street and 8th Avenue as fast as the A, with more transfer options.
The L line should be able to handle 15-18 trains per hour during the rush. An extension past 8th Ave might allow for increased capacity at this end of he line.
I've been told that the typical NYC subway line can handle 25 trains per hour right now. The advanced signals would allow for even more capacity on the L, although the turnaround capacity at 8th Avenue may limit capacity. But the L only has 12 to 14 trains per hour now, that that's about what it needs to serve the areas it serves.
If the era of large scale subway construction were to return, there is some obvious potential to hook more lines from more places up to this line. It is an under-used asset.
This line was designed to serve both Canarsie and the Lefferts Blvd. leg of the Fulton el. So hooking in another line is certainly possible.
If the NIMBY's didn't exist, the Montaulk LIRR could be converted to a subway line and it could be a second branch of the 14th St. line serving Maspeth, Glendale and Richmond Hill.
Why should the Montalk Line be a branch, it would be its own seperate line, maybe even conecting with the 63rd St tunnel
I heard that in the 60s (probably before Harold Fisher, who hated els) the TA seriously thought about extending the Jamaica El to Hillside Avenue somewhere around 179th Street, and a transfer to the E/F.
Of course, Jamaica was different then, with Mays, Gertz and so forth. The idea would have been to give Hillside Avenue bus riders a choice of trains to downtown. This would have taken some pressure off the IND and put it on the BMT; maybe even enough to justify the Jamaica El third track.
Post - Chrysite Street, then, one could have had a 179 Street to 179 Street train terminating in the same place on two different levels. Interesting.........
Correct, and now one could easily have an Archer-to-Archer service, via Queens Blvd - 6th Av - Chrystie - Jamaica. Not that it will ever happen.
O already said that twice
02/06/2000
If there was any Archer Ave. to Archer Ave. service, would it be called BOOMERANG service!
Bill Newkirk
That would have been a MUCH cheaper alternative to the Archer Ave. subway, while basically providing the same service.
With due respect to the two Marks and the Bill and
the holy Webmaster Pirmann, I am interested in meeting
other redbird fans to ride the rails of the birds.
Anyone up for some?
Count me in!!!! E-mail me.
Sorry you missed the IRT's birthday when a small group rode Red and not so Red Birds all day (with a side trip to Coney Island) this past October.
Suggestion: Think of a "Field Trip" incl. some interesting points of interest to draw in a few friends to tag along with you. I'll be doing a repeat of a Field Trip the "Beaches of Rock & Long" this Summer. Friends can join me at Main Street about 4 PM or Jay St. about 6 PM. My Field Trip doesn't make many stops because it's a long one and includes bus as well as subway rides. This year I plan to ask the wife to meet us at Long Beach with a Volley Ball brought via my convertable.
My point, get creative, think of ways we can have FUN enjoying our favorite hobby.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, to even the sides on the volleyball game I guess I'll have to join you and be onthe opposite team.
I would be willing to do this field trip (make it a We, will drag the wife).
I set real well :)
--Mark
I erred to not mention specifics:
Being that the MTA plans to scrap our beloved
BIRDS in trade for GWB-hopping R-142's...
I know there are a few, if not MILLIONS, of
REDBIRD lovers like myself who feel downed by
the BIRDS departure from service.. I propose we
get together and ride the rails, make some comments,
shoot some scenes.. and i'll bring the vid cam.
"Field Trips" get organized here by someone who realy wants to do a thing. He/she comes up with a general plan then anounces it.
One of the first was a fairwell to the Williamsburg Bridge. Our Boston friend, Todd Glickman, happened to be in town the final Friday before it was shut down for repairs. He said, why don't a bunch of us take a last ride about 6 PM ... they did. There even was a T/O who said, come ride with me about 7 PM (he was working that line).
So, get busy with your plan ;-) Word of advise, don't think you have to modify it so that everyone who has an interest can come. If the majority like your plan or you don't mind the few changes suggested, then go for it. Announce the time & date. You're sure to meet a few of us that want to tag along (I've met about 30 SubTalkers on various trips). Second word of advise, don't get discouraged if the group is small. The offer is what matters. I have had several very enjoyable evenings this way, only two of them did I have much to do with the planning/organization.
Mr t__:^)
Beware of posters trying to set up trips that post with totally phony e-mail addresses.
>Beware of posters trying to set up trips that post with
>totally phony e-mail addresses.
If you were here long enough you'd know who we all really
are and that the phony e-mail address is just a pushoff
to those who don't know "the secret"
Humour me. I've been here since day one. WHat's "the secret"?
--Mark
Dear Mr T,
It won't matter the size of the group, what matters
is the purpose and we redbird lovers in this group
know the purpose goes without saying.
Thanks, still.
Your still a phony. Give us your REAL identity and we'll believe you.
maybe on the last day it is going out. anyway, i wouldn't post up a rail fan yet. they are not leaving the 7 line.
I think they are
The R-33 singles have to be the FIRST to go.
I want to hold a rather lavish celebration when the last of them is permanently and irrevocably removed from passenger service.
>I want to hold a rather lavish celebration when the last of them is >permanently and irrevocably removed from passenger service.
You bite. Badly.
And your teeth haven't grown in yet so you need to have your food mashed?
While driving by I spotted an Ex LIRR cabin car in the NYCH yards by the float bridges. Any one have any input what it will be used for. By the way the car was heavily graffitied. P.S. The new float bridges look great.
amtrak's acela express has three purpose-built maintenance shops. locations are ivy city (DC), northampton (beantown) and sunnyside. sponsored by ny chapter of nat'l rr historical society, with further support from IEEE. YOU MUST PREREGISTER! Space is limited, and it may already be too late. cost is $20 ($15 if you are an IEEE member). contact: Peter Greco, STV inc, 225 Park Av So, 10003. tel 212.614.3357; fax 212.529.5237; email: {p.j.greco@ieee.org}
thurs feb10, 645pm. 90 min-2hr @sunnyside yard (EFG to Qns Plaza)
have fun!
Oh Eye do love this site ... so many things to do, so little time.
Thanks very much for the post !
Mr t__:^)
Half of the stations that were renovated from 1995 are still looking good except for 59th Street on the IRT 4&5. the Station looks horrible. MTA did a poor job on this station.the tiles on the walls look good but the floor has patches of cement on it, the walls have fungus growing on them, the whole structere is littered with leaks and the paint and plastering is just peeling off. 7th ave. on the BD&E is the same problem. the MTA put more effort into these stations as they did the others.
have you walked through the connection between the E/F and downtown 6 at Lex/51 somedays its like there is a burst pipe in the ceiling there is so much water pouring in. and the smell from the standing water......not plesant...
I know! it's so horrible. walking through it makes me feel like it is a sewer.
and all they do is put some orange tape to block off the area, and when is the escolater up to the 6 platform going to work again. There was a sign there saying it was out OOS till 1/31 but the sign was taken down a few days before it still sits there collecting dust..
Wall street on the 3,4 is misiing floor tiles on the platform and mezzenine. Some tile have been replaced with tiles of a differnt color. I am beginig to feel this whole tile thing on the floor was a bad idea. When wall st first reopened it was buetyful. Now it just looks loke a big waste of time and money. They would have been better off just spending money on new singleing system so that Automatic train control could be installed system wide and cut costs to the riders
Is it on the 2/3 or the 4/5 lines?
Many renovated stations have problems. The cement patches in the floor are in quite a few stations, not just 59th Street. Brooklyn Bridge has lots of water problems on the platforms when it rains. Many of the nicely redone local stations on the 1/9 below 34th Street have missing wall tiles. Fulton St on the 4/5, among others, has a hideous ceiling and some filthy exit stairwells. I wish the MTA would put effort into keeping stations nice after they've spent millions of dollars renovating them. Instead they start falling apart almost immediately after they're finished.
Nevins Street on manhattenbound platform has a virtual waterfal coming down from the ceiling. the first priority in station renovations should be repairing the station structually
OK, I know this is a major topic on this BBS and has been discussed inside and out. Every possible scenario for Manhattan Bridge operation has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. NOw I'm not the type to complain, but I really need to vent over this. I just read some of the latest postings on the MB and to think that the NOrth side of the bridge is going to be closed again is assinine! This damn project has been going on since the mid-80's! If this ever gets done, it will have been a 20 year project and its success is completely unknown! Someone in the other posts suggested the TA think long term. Why don't they? Someone must be maknig a profit off of this because the length of the project as well as the schedule is ludicrous.
All thoughts welcomed...
It's a Vietnam situation. If they had known this was going to happen, perhaps they would have decided to replace the bridge. But now they are determined to keep fixing and fixing no matter what, because of the money they've already spent. And the contractors love a steady flow of work, rather than a long term solution.
Well at least they should find a way to get the B,D,Q trains from Christie street to the south side.
Since one of the long-term problems with the Manhattan Bridge has been unbalanced usage, it would seem to make sense to shift all Brooklyn-bound service to the south side of the Bridge and all Manhattan-bound to the north side.
While the Chrystie St. section from the Bridge to Grand Street is out of service, the Brooklyn-bound track from Grand Street could be lowered (with lots and lots of waterproofing) and swung in a wide curve into what is currently the Manhattan-bound Broadway track. The current Brooklyn-bound track from Chrystie would then become the Manhattan-bound Broadway express track into Canal, crossing over the relocated track from Grand Street.
The Brooklyn end wouldn't seem too complicated to do--there are enough old tunnels Brooklyn-bound that could be used and on the Manhattan-bound side, the H track underpass could be swung rightward to connect to the current Brooklyn-bound Chrystie track.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Hey guys, POSSIBLE GOOD NEWS: Brooklyn MIGHT GET a Greyhound Bus terminal!!
I have a copy of the Downtown Brooklyn Paper and there is some serious talk of a bus terminal for Brooklyn. I haven't read the particulars, but I believe the Navy Yard is one of the proposed locations.
Doug aka BMTman
isn't there a stop on Hillside Ave in Queens?
Why would anyone want to take a Greyhound to/from the Navy Yard? "Cahn't get theah from heah," as the old Yankee used to say on the radio--even York St. Station a good quarter-mile from the nearest part of the Yard, which would be insurmountable with luggage.
There's a whole block vacant adjacent to York St., though; but if they want to capture a decent market I'd think they'd have to put it at Atlantic Terminal, where it wouldn't be very welcome.
I agree they'd have to put in at Atlantic Terminal if they are serious. If they put it in the Navy Yard, people would have to drive to take a bus. That doesn't make much sense.
I'm not sure about it being unwelcome. I assume it would be a very small facility, with just a few bays and a waiting room. There are a couple of blocks between Flatbush and Atlantic, beyond the end of the LIRR yard, that have little of note on them. These blocks are fairly isolated from residences.
Unfortunatley, I'm not sure but I believe that even a small bus terminal would require a zoning special permit. That means public hearings, environmental impact statements, the whole mess. It's sure to bring out the NIMBYs in force.
Heck I would still go to the Port Authority since I would assume local buses would stop in Brooklyn and the Express (one stop) would go out of Manhattan.
"Heck I would still go to the Port Authority since I would assume local buses would stop in Brooklyn and the Express (one
stop) would go out of Manhattan. "
That's what most Long Islander's do. The running time on the busses from Hempstead are jaw-dropping.
Chuck
;In addition to running times from the island are ridiculous. When my daughter was attending SUNY Buffalo, I looked in the Running Dog for bringing her back to LI for some holiday. One bus from Buffalo left at 8:15AM and was a direct into the Port Authority. The clerk told me that it she was reading the computer screen correctly this same equipment then went out to LI ending in Riverhead. It would arrive in Melville at 10PM. HOWEVER, if my daughter took a 9:45 AM bus from Buffalo, changed in Rochester and then changed again in Syracuse she could arrive in Melville at 9PM. Two changes are faster than a direct?? I guess the traffic management firm of Howard, Fein and Howard (a/k/a The Three Stooges) does the routing.
If this terminal comes into existence at the Navy Yard, would they add it onto the LI runs by having the buses come down the BQE. What about buses from the South, would they come over the VZ and then up thru Brooklyn? I wouldn't bet on schedules being kept.
I also think that this discussion should move over to Bus-Talk.
agreed.move the dog story to Bus Talk.
Bob----- You're not looking to start in with me again? Mack buses and Greyhound belong on SubTalk.
And yes--- I received your e-mails and I am having my lawyer, Algonquin J. Calhoun, study them to see if there is any basis for a civil suit.
OOOps!
Made a BIG mistake. The Greyhound Terminal site is planned in Fort Greene, Adelphi Street was mentioned specifically.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug--- did the article say whether they were planning a passenger terminal or a repair facility?
Since Greyhound vacated their facility which is now West Side Depot, they have no place in New York to do major repairs. They keep all their buses in two outdoor yards near the LIRR storage yards around 12th Ave and W. 29th Street. They just park them and fuel them there. They have no indoor repair facility.
Where on Adelphi Street? Adelphi is a one way street South Bound from at least Park Avenue (BQE is overhead) until it ends at Fulton St. If it is near Fulton it is still a long schlep from AT. If it is up by Park (near or in the Navy Yard) it is totally inaccesible by subway and a high crime rate area. Sounds to me like a repair facility which would make good use of the Navy Yard buildings.
Maybe if it is a repair facility in the Navy Yard, they'll open an office and have NY buses terminate at Atlantic Terminal before heading for the facility. I would be a good thing. Brooklyn has 2.5 million people, and the Port Authority is a schlepp.
The article didn't say.
However, what WAS said is that the Community Board 2 Landmarks Committee met with Congressman Ed Towns and Greyound officials recently. The Bus Terminal proposal will be on CB 2's Board meeting this coming Wednesday.
The exact location on Adelphi Street was not mentioned, but that area is part of the Fort Greene Historical District, so you can be sure that there will be NIMBY's in full force at that meeting (and I really can't blame them since Fort Greene is highly residential. There are better locations that could be chosen for a bus terminal in Brooklyn).
One underused location: the Atlantic Avenue waterfront area by Columbia/Warren Streets right near the BQE.
Of course, the Atlantic Terminal above the LIRR would be MOST desirable, but that area is already slated for use as a shopping mall.
Doug aka BMTman
(No room at Atlantic Terminal)
You could put a bus terminal there, though not one with room for extensive maintenace. Again, are they intending to provide service, or just fix buses? There are a couple of semi-abandoned blocks right next to the LIRR yard. These owners might not want to sell. Or, they could work with Forest City and put a bus terminal right in the new section of the mall, if it ever happens. You'd just need a few bus stalls on the ground floor with an exit to the outside, perhaps near the loading bays, and an office and waiting room on the inside the mall. Good place to put a coffee and bagel place next to.
[Of course, the Atlantic Terminal above the LIRR would be MOST desirable, but that area is already slated for use as a shopping
mall.]
Which, if everything goes perfectly without a hitch, should be open and ready for business in time for Christmas.
Christmas 2025, that is.
2025? I think you wrote that backwards.
There is a big difference between a bus terminal (or bus station) and a bus repair facility!
Having a bus station that is right by the BQE would avoid the need to run through local streets and presumably reduce running time for the buses, but if the station isn't accessible by subway, it's kind of pointless for most customers.
The Port Authority terminal in Manhattan is at a good location because (a) passengers can connect directly with the 8th Ave. subway and (b) buses can connect directly with the Linclon Tunnel. Most buses using the Terminal do connect with the tunnel and avoid any significant use of local Manhattan streets. The exception is buses to/from New England, which have to travel up to the Bronx on Manhattan avenues before reaching a highway; this adds significantly to the running time of those buses.
If a terminal was built in Brooklyn, I expect buses to/from New England would be the most popular. They would go north on the BQE, east on the LIE, north on the Van Wyck, over the Whitestone Bridge and onto I-95.
Folks, this is ONLY going to be a bus station (it is NOT to include a bus repair facility)
Doug aka BMTman
heypaul, the article doesn't get into the details. This Greyhound Bus Terminal business is only in the talking stages and sounds to me to ONLY be a passenger terminal. I seriously doubt that a residential neighborhood with limited space like Fort Greene is going to have the room for -- or tolerate the noise from -- a bus repair facility.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Paul, good to see you back, did you read my e mail to you
"Slow train is coming" by Brian McGrory
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/035/metro/Slow_train_is_coming+.shtml
-- David
Chicago, IL
I love the article, written in the right nasty spirit. But the bottom line is, they stalled for a decade, and got $400 million to get out of the way. Thats' wrong. Fair compesation and reasonable accomodation should be offered up front. If it is not accepted, there should be payback. I'd plow the thing straight through.
Now that the C line gone for a while, what happened to the R110b cars that were running the line? Did they go to the E or back to the A ? where have they gone?
They're probably sitting in the yard. They're unusable on the A and E lines.
why are they unusuable on the A & E?
There aren't enough. The 6 cars could easily provide service on the lightly used C, but not on other lines. The other three cars were cannibalized to keep the first 6 running. Since it's only a limited prototype, there's little sense to spend money on new parts. Perhaps all nine cars will be restored when the R-143 comes along, but those will be incompatible (60 feet vs. 67 feet), at least in regular service.
They could always run them on the Franklin, The M or L can t they
No they can't. The morons who designed the new Franklin Shuttle left platform lengths at 170', too short for the R110B to be used.
couldn't the doors at the end be cut out[first and last cars?
Yeah, but why bother? The 2 car R68's work fine, but the station lengths limit service on this line to that only.
Saw some of them deadheading south thru Jay St last Friday about 11a.m. Most of the train was thru the station as I reached the n/b platform so I couldn't tell how long the train was. All signed up NOT IN SERVICE
The train runs in 2 3-Car units. 6 67' cars total.
The R110B can only run on the A, C or D. Only those lines have the special R110B conductors panel board.
how hard would it be to but up the panels on other lines????
How many others stations are there. Some stations you have to put up 2 more boards, and some 4 more boards are required. Anyway It would be a pain on the other lines due to only 6 cars. 402' verses 600' It's not worth it for these cars. They're probably going to the scrap heap soon. They were only buggy test units.
These cars probably won't get scrapped as long as they can keep them running using one of the 3 car sets as a supply of parts. Look for them to run on the Rockaway Shuttle in the near future.
The R-143 will be compatible (mechanically), so then it might might be more effective to buy new parts and have all 9 cars running. But unlike the R-110A, which can conceivably be made fully compatible with the R-142, the R-110Bs dimensions force them to run alone for all eternity.
The R-110Bs dimensions force them to run alone for all eternity.
Hmm.... There's an analogy there, but I won't touch it. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Angel? Isssssss That You?
What gives you the idea that the R-110B will be assigned to the Rockaway Park Shuttle?
Becuse it's the logical choice. The 2 remaining 3-car sections would do just fine running on the shuttle. It's too short for almost every other line.
My choice would be the Franklin Shuttle, but the 201' car sections wouldn't fit the 170' stations.
It's a good idea, but, I just don't think it will happen. I don't know why, but I just don't think so.
When do you think this will happen?
The LIRR intends to, or has already scrapped the C1 prototype double deckers. I assume they'll do the same to the R-110B.
BTW, Why was there no C2?
They're not gonna scrap working subway cars as long as they don't cost too much to maintain. If they can be kept in good working order without constant maintenance, then you will see them in service on the Rockaway Shuttle. Trust me.
SAW IT THIS MORNING PASSING ME(AS IT ALWYS DOES). Looks real nice and much faster then the r68. how many of the r38 is the "B" running?
I've seen only 1 set, with #4011-4012 pairing making up part of it.
It seems there is a rush to get R142 in service for the "2","5" and the "6" lines(why not the "7" is beyond me). But what about the rest of the riders on the BMT and IND? I mean, i thought the Ta was buying R143 cars. Where are those and what lines are they all going to? I once read becasue of a weight problem, R68's can't run on the "J","L",M" and "Z" lines. What type of weight problem and what lines would the new cars go to?
I'm not sure about the weight but I know that the 75' cars can't run on the J/M because they're too long
Yes, length problems make 75' car operation on the J and M line impossible, with the curve at Crescent St being too sharp to navigate safely.
but why can't the R143's be used on the A/E?
The R143 is being equipped with an automated operating system that will be installed along the Canarsie line sometime in the future, which is why these cars are headed for the L. The remaining R143 cars are heading to the M so that the M fleet will have enough new cars with transverse cabs to justify turning the M shuttle into an OPTO line.
less need I think. If anything they would run them on the C-line
All R143 cars will be put on the L and M. The entire L line will be R143 equipped, and remaining cars are tentatively destined for the M. Delivery date is unknown to me. I would think the R143 cars would be more important than the R142, because of the car shortage and the necessity of new cars to run the new 63rd. St. line through to Queens Blvd. and the upcoming Manhattan Bridge switch.
does that mean the cars on the l will go to the Q? my cr chocie is this for the lines:
A-R143
B-R68
C-R38
D-R68
E-R44/R46
F-R46
G-R46
J/Z-R40
L/M-R40
N-R40/R68
Q-R143
R-R46
Watch out...incoming bashing detected.
The L cars will probably get sent to Coney Island and be parceled out to lines as needed. I read somewhere that the R42's are destined to run on the N after the R143 fleet has been delivered.
That was when the Q was running the R-68, so the R-68s from the N would go to the Q. Now it's more likely that the trains will go directly to the Q. If the Manhattan Bridge isn't switched in 2001, then the Q will be the one with the extra service.
Since you're the Q rider, it's obvious that you want the new cars on your line. The world doesn't revolve around you. The R-143 is going to the L because the L is the best place to test the electronic signalling system.
And since nearly all of the lines you mentioned have the exact same assignments now as you want them to, why did you bother to mention it? You don't ride those lines so you obviously have no opinion on what they should have.
Don't take this insultingly, I want the R-142s on the 2, even though by that time I probably won't be riding the 2. Although I would prefer they go to the 7 even though I don't use it so those R-33 singles can die. They're hot cars, and as such, deserve to rot in hell.
"Don't tack this insultingly, but"....... Isn't that something. YOU DISS THE MAN THEN SAY dont get mad about it. some people are full of bull---- mr. PLAGUE!!!!!!!!!!
How is it insulting, I'm sure people as simplistic as you can take it that way. I was showing how he has no authority to say the new cars go to his own line as he, like any other person, wants the best for themselves.
when are the R143 to be delivered?
The R-143s were ordered a year and a half after the R-142/142As were, and the R-142/142As are just starting to come in now, so don't expect to see them for about another year and a half.
David
It's not an issue of weight, but clearance. After all, the BMT standards were heavier than any of the 75-footers, and they could and did run on the Jamaica line. Only the Triplexes could not run on the old 1885 elevated portion due to excessive weight.
the R 143 is is probably very light if u think about today's technology
Why can't the R-62s go to the 7 line?
We really need new trains.
I heard it was something to do with the side clearence in the tunnel?
Someone said that the side guard lights get in the way.
The MTA thinks in very strange ways. Since March 1999 I had been hearing that R62As were going to the 7 line. I don't know when the first date for the switch to R62s was but it kept getting pushed back I think I heard May, August, November and finally last month. Then I read in the January 10th Daily News Article about the R142s that Redbirds were going to stay on the 7.
I agree the 7 does need new cars. More than half of the 6 train's fleet is R62As and those are what I see running there except during rush hours. I've heard other posters say they have seen more Redbirds on the 6 on the weekends. But the 62As are still on the 6, and it should not get first priority for the 142s unless the MTA is going to transfer the 62As to the 7 (which I think should have recieved them in the first place because of its need for 11-car trains).
Redbirds, 62s and 142s are the same dimensions so I don't know why the R62s would have side clearance problems in the 7 line tunnels. The MTA's reasoning for deciding not to send 62As to the 7, after hearing so much about it, puzzles me. It looks like it's going to be another summer on the 7 with Redbirds. Just don't ride in the single R33 cars during the summer!
The 6 doesn't get the R142s first. The 2 gets them first, then the 5 (it might be the other way around but I doubt it). I've heard the R62s will go from the 3 and/or 6 to the 7, cars on the 1/9 may go to the 3 or 7, and the 1/9 will be the last home for the redbirds.
The 1/9 will probably not get any Redbirds. The Redbirds don't have a 9 on the rollsign and they're not going to bother replacing them for a year or two of service. The likely candidates for the Redbirds last stand seem to be the 4 and the 6. The 5 will most likely be the first as it is served directly by the East 180th Street Yard, which is where these first R-142s were sent. It also has the oldest Redbirds.
Hi folks, RE R62As on the 7: This will NEVER happen. These cars DO NOT fit they have been tested numerous times. The guard lights were ripped off many times. The only other cars I see coming here on the 7 are the R36s that the #6 line has. They will hope fully go back to where they belong home on the 7. But who knows? If they can fix the tunnels then maybe the 7 will see some R62A action. But for now forget it.
The R-62s were tested on the Flushing Line when they were new (and so were the R-62As). During that test, some of the exterior door lights were sheared off in the Steinway Tubes. It was found that the tracks were somewhat out of alignment in this extremely narrow tunnel. The roadbed was rebuilt during the 1980s, if I remember correctly, and most of the exterior door lights have been removed from the cars. R-62s (and R-62As) should have no problem operating on the Flushing Line.
However, it is unlikely that R-62s would be assigned to the Flushing Line for two reasons:
1. The cars are permanently coupled into five-car units, and the Flushing Line requires 11-car trains (there was some talk of going to 10-car trains on the line, but not lately).
2. There aren't enough R-62s (323) to provide all Flushing Line service even if the cars could run in 11-car consists. There are enough R-62As, though, so it is possible that the R-62As could be assigned there.
At this point, the car assignment for after the R-142s and R-142As arrive isn't finished, so any proposed car assignments on SubTalk are sheer speculation.
David
The R-142s will have to arrive first, as unless there are enough cars to replace the R-666/20, it won't make any sense. The R-62s on the 3 are still in singles, and the singles can remain that way, or six car sets can be made. The R-142 will be configurable into 4 and 6 car sets for the 3 and 7 respectively, in addition to the standard 5. That's why we need to wait until a sufficient number of R-142s are available.
Why does everyone seem to think that simply because certain cars that used to be single units are now 5-car sets, they can't or won't be reconfigured in the future to fit the need? The 3 has several trains of 5-car sets with 4 singles attached.
-Hank
It's unlikely that cars made into 5-car sets will be undone. NYCT is enamored of sets right now and for the foreseeable future, and restoring cars' individuality would cost money (remember that some components are removed when the cars are converted and used as replacement parts). The R-62As that are still singles are that way because the #3 line has 9-car trains and the #7 line has 11-car trains. The #3 line is scheduled to go to 10 cars when cars are available, and if the #7 line gets R-62As then some of those cars will have to either remain as singles or be put into 6-car sets (just speculating about the 6-car sets; let's not have a week's worth of postings on it, please).
David
Nothing at all stops them from making 4- 3- or 6-car sets. There's a problem with yard space at Lenox Terminal, which is why there's only 9-car trains on the 3. In fact, making some 6- and 3- car sets would solve the problems of 11 cars for the Flushing and 9 cars for the Lenox.
-Hank
There are 320 R62s currently in service - #1435, #1436 and #1439 are all crash-damaged and are awaiting disposition or repair.
Wayne
Are the Steinway tubes the problem? Is this why they can't run anything other than Redbirds on the 7?
All the current IRT cars and the R-142 have similar dimensions. I doubt that there are any problems in the tubes.
With over 1,000 R-142 and R-142As set for delivery, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 7 keep its Redbirds until the last of the R-142s arrive, which would then make up the new Flushing Line fleet. That's the way the TA did it 40 years ago, when the last series of R-33/36 cars went to the 7 after the mainline cars had arrived.
It also would give Corona and Coney Island time to retool to handle the new cars and their remove-from-the-top AC units.
But back then, the A/C on the R-33 singles was not an issue.
They may be an issue now, but unless the R-62s are shifted out to Flushing, until you see some modifications being built at Corona or CI to handle the R-142s, they're not going over to that line. And since we're talking about a good deal of time before all 1,100 R-142s are delivered, if the last 350 or so go to the 7, it would give the MTA plenty of time to modify Corona to handle the AC units.
Since Flushing tends to hold onto their trains for a long time (too long, I guess, in your opinion of the R-33s), if you believe Joe Hoffman (admittedly a stretch), then sending brand new R-142s to the 7 in 2002 means you won't have to worry about new trains on the line until 2072 at the earliest.
That's the way the TA did it 40 years ago, when the last series of R-33/36 cars went to the 7 after the mainline cars had arrived.
Historically, the Flushing Line has been blessed with new equipment. It was the first IRT line to get postwar equipment - R12, R14 and R15, despite the fact that 15% of its fleet was only 10 years old. Then along came the 1964 World's Fair and they replaced the entire fleet after only 14 years service.
Plus they had the Steinway Low Vs when service first began. Outside of a few cars moved over from the main line every now and then, Flushing has never had to deal with "hand-me-down" equipment, the way other lines have.
As crowded as it is nowadays, the MTA is probably better off making sure the No. 7 train is as reliable as possible, which is why sending the last 400 of the R-142s there would make sence, since whatever bugs they find in the Bombardiers and Kawasakis should be worked out after the first 700 are delivered.
...Flushing has never had to deal with "hand-me-down" equipment, the way other lines have.
The IRT and BMT gate cars were another story.
OK, to be more specific, the Flushing line has never had "hand me down" subway equipment. The stuff that used to come over the Queensboro from Second Ave. or was kept above ground by the BMT is another story.
I suspect the reason the #7 has always had homogeneous fleets of cars has more to do with the difficulty of moving cars to a main shop than anything else. Flushing cars have to go to Coney Island for major repairs, which requires a pair of B division "horses" since the trip cocks are on different sides on the two divisions, as well as a difficult switching move at Queens Plaza (yes, it's a straight crossover, but tower operators are apparently told NEVER to route trains that way -- we had to argue for 10 minutes before they'd let the track geometry car make that move one day, and it fits A division clearances).
Even before the Gunn years, it was beginning to be recognized that if specific fleets of cars were based at specific barns, the maintainers would become more familiar with them -- not to mention that if a car wasn't fixed right, the same guys would be repairing it again the next night. The isolation of the Flushing Line made a dedicated fleet easy, and the World's Fair gave the city an excuse to order shiny new cars.
The Steinway Lo-Vs were specially geared for the steep grades of that tunnel. I've heard that standard Lo-Vs could handle the grades as long as they were part of a solid train of motors - no trailers.
As for the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s, the only reason they were initially assigned to the Flushing line was because their doors would not line up with the original gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry. Had there not been any need for gap fillers on the Contract One and Contract Two routes, the car assignment pattern may have turned out very diffently.
They remove the 33s in the summer, add them back in the Fall...
They didn't remove the 33s last summer during that nasty July heatwave.
Hi Folks, (mr R142) The # 7 line ran 10 car trains in the following years: 1994-1997 & 1999 and maybe this year as well. I like the 10 car trains but I dont hate the R33 singles. I even remember when the #7 ran 8 car trains on nights/weekends. For some unknown reason the only other summers the # 7 line did not do the 10 car trains were 1990-1993 and 1998* I dont know why they didnt do 10 cars for 1998 any one out there have an answer for this? I know this because where I live the 7 line is 2 blocks from my house :) Regards. PS the 7 line is STAYING ALL Red birds. NO R142 or R62s.
Which CANNOT happen. If any Redbird is gone first, it'll be the R-33 single.
I found this site. With the discussion about the mayor and the city hall station I though this would be interesting.
http://burn.ucsd.edu/~mai/giulianism.html
Yes, more elitist college officials abusing their free university internet and e-mail accounts to launch biased and stupid opinions about people they knows nothing about. I gotta bookmark this baby.
UCSD? Don't us New Yorkers have a right to select a senator without a California University muddying up the waters. Oh, well, one of the candidates isn't even from New York, either.
Actually, I'd like to see a site about those who hate those who hate the mayor...
And I'd write one, if I had the time, or the skill.
I have both, I just don't have the content.
Want to team up?
LOL
I love the comments of these groups,usually well insulated from the consequences of their ideals by distance and money.
It`s really annoying when these groups and individuals lecture us on how off-base New york is (in their eyes).
Although I a registered Democrat,I`ve lived through the period of well-intentioned but misguided liberalism that caused decent solid middle-class neighborhoods in places like the Bronx to become drug and arson ruined hell holes.
During the 1970s I personally watched the wave of brainless arson and violence sweep slowly up from the So.Bronx toward my grandmother`s apt,in Bedford Pk.Though this area was spared from the worst,I was quite a sight to see block after block of burned buildings on the Grand Concourse.
BY the late 70s I had stopped going to the Bx Zoo by #5 train,the view was too depressing and frightening.
Mrs Clinton is typical of most liberals;looking for a house this "woman of the people" choses what? A million dollar mini mansion in a cloistered hamlet far from the consequences of her good works.
Another phony.
In Chappaqua, no less. My sister got married there. The latest I hear is that Hillary doesn't know squat about what's going on in New York (state and city).
I'm not much for Hillary either, but the Captain Jack controversy is a little unfair. Those who have actually heard the entire song, and who appreciate the early Billy Joel style (nasty sarcasm) understand that it is an anti-drug song. It portrays drug users as sexually rejected waste-of-life losers, something far scarier to an adolescent than death. But death is not neglected -- the last line is "Captain Jack can make you die tonight" instead of "high tonight."
The "Captain Jack" mess is typical of recent Republican/conservative campaigns...remember Falwell/"Teletubbies" or Quayle/"Murphy Brown?" Both men have since been decisively marginalized.
Of course, all politicians are guilty of this tactic...
Don't compare the laughable Teletubbies thing with Quayle's attack on single motherhood. Fallwell was crazy. Quayle was 100% correct in everything he said.
OK, no more off topic stuff. I made a promise. Please send all responses to the above remark to me by e-mail, not on Subtalk.
The song's real meaning is not the issue. What scares me is that someone who works for Hillary's campaign thought that song was appropriate at a press conference announcing someone's intention to seek public office. It clearly refers to drug use and even masturbation. Didn't anyone say "Hey, you can't play that. Hillary's enemies will have a field day". Even scarier is that the person who selected this song has power within Her organization.
What's next? Campaign commercials using Ozzy Osbourne's "Suicide Solution"?
Regarding the "Captain Jack' issue,In all fairness it`s quite possible that this music was selected by the sound tech and not the campaign.
I`ve worked professionaly in theatre sound and did some for the Democrats here in NYC. Often we`d be asked to "just put on some music" to liven up the crowd for the media.
Hopefully,it was just a lack of planning and not a Freudian slip.
I hope Freud didn't ever wear a slip! ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He did-his mother`s.
Saw it..not impressed, it's just the same know-nothing BS that the mayor's opponents have been spouting for years at this point. Not exactly original thinking from a group of lily-white radicals who never ventured north of 96th Street or east of the East and/or Harlem Rivers. Saw a lot of drivel about squatters, panhandlers and cabbies in re: to Hizzhonor's policies since they only affect Manhattan south of 96th Street. Nary a mention of annoyances that affect folks north of 96th Street and in the outer boros such as dilapidated schools, broken streets, litter, crime, lousy bus service etc.
A page like that speaks volumes about the Mayor's opponents than about the Mayor himself when you look at it.
Let's see if there's a page for Hillary haters. Or Democrat haters. Just remember, when Rudy G. gets elected senator, we get that jellyfish Mark Green to finish out his mayoral term. Just the thought makes me want to shudder. Now enough of this, lets get back to subway and transit topics.
A few weeks ago, I posted in here a remark about the infamous old map still visable in the 57th/6th station mezzanine. I stated that it had both the KK line to Eastern Pkwy and the Culver shuttle. Someone in here said that neither line was shown on this map. When I stated otherwise, this person (whose identity I forgot) told me I was crazy.
I'm happy to report that I viewed the map again yesterday and it did indeed have both of those lines on it, and it was dated 1974. Just thought I'd crow a bit.
That was me. You only got it half right. I said that neither of the lines are there and it's dated 1976, you then said I was wrong. That part so far is correct. Now, the difference is that as soon as you said I was wrong, I stopped the discussion and believed you, I never called you crazy. Unless someone else did.
BTW, where is the map? maybe there are two. After going into the Fare paid area nearest 57th, there is a map posted on the plexiglass wall facing AWAY from the fare area, and the old map I saw is on the back facing in. It's blocked by a few bars of some sort (I don't exactly remember why), but still perfectly visible. It also faces an old style phone booth, you know the type with the door that's still in some places on West End Avenue?
The map I saw was facing IN behind a plexiglass wall. The only way to see it is to descend down the platform steps. There are 2 offset stairwells, the closer being to the left. If you keep going, another stairwell to your right exists. It is behind the plexiglass barrier that the map in question resides.
I spent about 5 minutes staring at it. I'd have stayed longer, but I didn't want people to think I was some sort of moron mesmerizied by brightly colored maps.
Is there a phone booth there?
02/05/2000
Gee, do you think it's time to update that map after 26 years? I mean (J) trains don't run to Jamaica-168th St, Dean St. on the Franklin shuttle is closed and guess what? a new subway opened to Jamaica Center!
Before City Hall and the surrounding areas were rebuilt, there was an imformation kiosk on Broadway near the (N)(R) entrance that up until a couple of years ago had a subway map with the JFK Express on it !
Bill Newkirk
Before the complex was rehabbed a few years ago, there was a map on the Canarsie bound platform at Lorimer St. from 1980, showing both the old double letters and M service on the Brighton line. It was in great condition, and it could be mistaken easily for a modern one.
I wonder how liable the TA might be if they are displaying maps with services that do not exist, at least not anymore.
Anyhow, I'm a big fan of the 'Massimo' maps (as I call them). I wish that style was still kept, no matter how geographically incorrect they may have been.
02/05/2000
Nice stories of forgotten maps, new ideas for Kevin Walsh! Any maps around with the Myrtle Ave. "el" on it? If so, somebody reading it will run out of Jay St./Boro Hall to the center of Metrotech and scream....OH HELL, WHERE'
>>>Nice stories of forgotten maps, new ideas for Kevin Walsh! Any maps around with the Myrtle Ave.
"el" on it? <<<
About a year ago I was shown an online map showing where the new Marriott Hotel in Brooklyn is...and believe it...or not it showed the Myrtle Avenue EL! I'm not kidding.
Caveat emptor...many of these CD ROM and online maps use base maps from decades and decades ago...meaning they show streets and landmarks that were there decades ago.
Caveat emptor again...buy Hagstrom while you still can. Their gorgeous hand drawn maps will be replaced this decade by cheaper digital maps.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes these online maps can be very bad. I recently saw one that featured the mid-Manhattan and Lower Manhattan expressways, which of course were purposed by Robert Moses but were never (thankfully)
built.
02/05/2000
Nice stories of forgotten maps, new ideas for Kevin Walsh! Any maps around with the Myrtle Ave. "el" on it? If so, somebody reading it will run out of Jay St./Boro Hall to the center of Metrotech and scream....OH HELL, WHERE'S THE "EL"!!!
Bill Newkirk
That station should be renamed Jay Street-Metrotech (especially since they want to connect it to Lawrence), it's not near Borough Hall!
I agree. I dont know why they call it Boro Hall. Borough Hall is about a good 3 blocks from there.........
3TM
Back in the mid-1970s, there was a vintage 1948 subway map posted along the overpass at the Coney Island station. Since it was right next to the crew room, I doubt it was overlooked, and some people just wanted to keep a little bit of past history around. The map at 57th and 7th may be the same thing, at least until someone from Jay Street with a stick up his can sees the map and orders it removed.
There's a circa 1981 MTA commuter rail map in the waiting area of the Patchogue LIRR station. I didn't realize it was such an old map at first. But then I started noticing long-vanished stations such as Republic and Cutchogue, and looked for the copyright date.
Hey Peter, what does that map show for the Port Jervis Line? Does it show it at all? I believe Conrail was still the technical 'operator' of the line back then....
Attention all subtalkers...
I dunno when I'll be able to make my way over to 6th and 57th...
so can any of you take a snapshot of that map and possibly a closeup of a long-outdated detail, like the KK, to be used on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
You will be made world famous with a credit.
BTW is this the highly stylized design that turned off a lot of people, that was used in the 60s and 70s, or the more readable design used since then?
www.forgotten-ny.com
This was the "rainbow" map style used from 1967-78. Each line had it's own color and the map looked like something Picasso painted, then threw away.
I, however, loved the design.
02/05/2000
Chris R,
I think you erred! That "Picasso" map you described first showed up in 1972. There was a 1967 map with the TA logo on it and a 1969 map with the M logo on it too. Those two maps were one of my favorites since it was so simple to read. That Picasso map deserved to be hanging in the Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art and not every subway station and subway car!
The idea of a simpler map was caused by the Picasso Map and brought forth a map with trunk lines with their own colors. Hence a simpler map that was also fairly geograhically correct. The newest map with SIRwy on it is a little off because of the addition of Staten Island.
Bill Newkirk
The 70s map got a lot of critcism because they went for style over substance -- some stations that were a block apart were shown as much further away, and if I remember right, one station (I forget which) in Manhattan was about a quarter mile off its actual location.
Just remebered. The original Picasso Map had the Broadway and 50th Street stop on the 1 west of the Eighth Ave. and 50th St. stop on the AA/CC/E.
But it looked great on T-shirts.
Who "chose" which color would be assigned to which line? Considering that the colors were assigned to each route first on the 1967 map, I'm thinking that whoever did it was dropping some serious acid. That map must blow your mind when your tripping.
1967 was the Summer of Love.
i can just imagine the new map planners, sitting at desks, Jefferson Airplane blasting on the 8-track, trying to decide which "colors" would look groovy.
"Cool, dude, I like that pink color. Draw the AA with that far out color. Anyone got some more acid?"
I thought that was 1969.
That was the year of Woodstock, man walking on the moon, and the Mets winning it all. 1967 was, in fact, the summer of love, originating in San Francisco. Flower children, the whole bit...
That explains why the post Chrystie street service plan was a bit, well, crazy. Too much acid going around TA headquarters back then, I guess.
I just took a look at the map. It is in horrible condition. Most of Manhattan and the Rockaway section is torn off and there is gum on it. Why don't they enclose it in a glass case?
As I remember, they corrected the alignment of the two West 50th Street stations after numerous complaints, showing their correct locations with the '1' stop being east of the one for the 'AA', 'CC' and 'E'.
I loved how there was no attempt to conform to scale whatsoever. The distance between Bowling Green and the defunct South Ferry station looked about the same as the length of Central Park.
Inconsequential to casual riders, but the 'F' appeared to cross the Manhattan Bridge along with the 'B','D','N' and 'QB'.
Today's map does a decent job depicting the city outside of the subway system. I especially like how neighborhood names, such as Tribeca, Chinatown and Upper East Side are shown.
How about that gigantic detour the Franklin Shuttle took to get from Botanic Garden to Prospect Pk? Or that the B, D, N, QB AND F trains all crossed the Manhattan bridge? and that mysterious turn in the Nassau St line between Essex and the Bowery? For some reason, the TA spent millions to relocate it to north of Canal ...
It's sure pretty, but it's an awful map.
The controversial "Picasso" map was designed by one Massimo Vignelli.
The original "NYC Access" book contained an update of the map by Vignelli, along with his comments:
"Originally the design of the New York subway map was part of a comprehensive project that included graphic standards for the entire subway system. Three maps were designed: one abstract, for the entire system; one geographical, which showed the actual position of the stations in the context of the area; and one which explained how to get there verbally...
...of this original information network, only the abstract system map was issued for use...although praised for its elegance and design, the map's distortions proved to be difficult for users to understand."
Vignelli goes on to trash the map currently in use:
"With the water in blue and the parks in green, the present map may be clearer in some instances, but in toto, it is a disappointing solution. The overall design is unclear and messy, which is unfortunate, since cartography has advanced to a much finer stage than the map would imply. This solution attempts to interface under and above-ground references with the result not satisfying either."
Well, I don't know much about art, but I know what I like...
I gotta see one of these things in position. I've seen it in the Transit Museum. I'll be shooting some Forgotten scenes in Brooklyn tomorrow but I just may get up to 57th and 6th to take a look at it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Except for the new map, and the line-color reorganization resulting from it, every aspect of the 1967 Vignelli graphics program is still in use by the MTA: the colored bullets with numbers/letters that represent each line; the notation at each station on the map of which lines stop there; the use of color to distinguish between routes, not the operating divisions made obsolete by Chrystie St.; the simple white Helvetica lettering on black that made signage consistent throughout the system, providing a visual unity to what had been an intimidating hodgepodge of information presented in three ways by three different companies providing the same service.
The t-shirts, hats, etc., at the Transit Museum and Canal Jean, and that big "A Y F I ?" campaign of Reebok's, are all cashing in on a graphics program that is still stylish after thirty years. I hope Vignelli's getting a cut.
When you get back from 57th St., compare that map to the 1966 map on this site (http://www.nycsubway.org/histmaps/1966_a.gif) and decide for yourself which has more relation to the subway as we know it--aside from the representation of the Broadway line as a series of 90-degree turns, which was unbelievably goofy.:)
I have a 1958 map, and it is quite distorted. It shows the Queens Blvd. line as a complete straight line all the way to 179th. It shows the J as a straight line all the way from Eastern Pkwy to 168th. The West End line is shown in perpendicular lines making 90' turns at 9th Ave and 18th Ave. And the entire A line is a straight line from 14th St to 207th. It does however do a better job of showing the true dimensions of the Broadway line. The "Picasso" map shows the Broadway line in such a way that it appears to run to 34th St. and 5th Ave, turns 90' onto 34th , then back uptown at 7th Ave to Times Sq.
The TA got away from the visually accurate maps back in the 1950s. If you can find a map from the post-unification period (or go look at the wall of most Subway sandwich shops), it gave a much more accurate representation of where stations were in relation to the rest of the streets and points of interest in the city. The main objection to the maps the TA and MTA came up with later, especially the 1970s version was people who need a subway map probably are people who also need help in directions once they get outside the subway. A map that shows the Bowling Green station about where Wall Street belongs definitely is one that needed a major overhaul.
Yes, Bowling Green appeared to be about a mile from South Ferry when in fact it's just up the block. Hagstrom's put out a post-Chrystie St. map which is what is displayed at Subway restaurants. I remember seeing it being sold at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, but never bought it.
By today’s standards that’s ancient; but I must go there to see exactly what type of Pantone PMS colors they exactly used for each line so I’m totally sure (I am a printing buff). I figured that they must’ve used PMS 116 for the #6 and N lines, PMS 165 for the #1, #7, D and EE lines, PMS 185 for the #2 and QB lines, PMS 306 for the #3, E and M lines, PMS 347 (or 354) for the SS, CC, GG and RR lines; I’m grasping at straws regarding the #4, AA and F lines (PMS 239?), the #5, B, J and LL lines (probably PMS 407, but on the maps definitely PMS Process Black) and the A and KK (K) lines (PMS 285? 293?)
By the way, if you travel along the stations of the 63rd Street extension, you will find that not only the maps but also the ads haven’t been changed since the early-to-mid-’90’s.
The newest line in the subway is now the most retro.
Knowing that, I will steal these old maps and ads, and put them in my Acitu Euneva Yawbus. The Bus will run until my workthingies finish the Utica Avenue line, which I expect to be around 1740. I just have to make sure His Royal Majesty doesn't find out about it first.
Talking about out of date subway maps once in a blue moon (when my '85 Buick breaks down) I take the train to work. I get off at Gates Av on the "J". Since I rarely use the train during rush hours even when I do take the train I never bothered finding out if the "J" or the "Z" stops there even though I knew about skip/stop. Well one time I had to use it at rush hour. I walked to Bway Junction from the LIRR and on the el mezzanine (between the Jamaica & Canarsie Els) there was a map. I looked at it and it stated skip/stop was only from Jamaica to Bway Junction, with no skip/stop W/O it. Luckily I got on a "Z" and was surprised when it skipped Chauncey. I wasn't sure if it would stop at Gates until it got there.
As promised, I checked out the area at the 57th Street/6th Avenue mezzanine, and found the map in question to be pretty well-preserved, considering some tears around some areas. The inks appear to have held up rather well and show no signs of fading. I have also confirmed that the map was printed on uncoated paper stock (as opposed to today’s maps which are printed on coated paper). With 20- and 30-year-old Pantone Color Selector swatches as my guides (after all, this map is 26 years old), I have determined the eight colors used for individual routes to have been:
For the #6 and N lines - PMS 116U
For the #1, #7, D and EE lines - PMS 165U
For the #2 and QB lines - PMS 185U
For the #4, AA and F lines - PMS 239U
For the A and K (ex KK) lines - PMS 300U
For the #3, E and M lines - PMS 306U
For the CC, GG, RR and SS lines - PMS 354U
For the #5, B, J and LL lines - PMS Process Black U
Frankly, I preferred these colors on the lines in question to the ones they adopted beginning in 1979. At least there is one place in the system where you can go down Memory Lane in that sense and remember when. . . .
I also noticed that with respect to the yellow (PMS 116U) ink, they appear to have overprinted. . . .
By the way, when did the 57/6th station open?
It, and the express tracks from 34th to West 4th Street, as well as the short-lived connection from Broadway-Lafayette Street to Essex Street of the Nassau Street/Broadway-Brooklyn line, opened July 1, 1968. This was the last leg of the Chrystie Street project, the first fruits of which were the connection between Sixth Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge which opened Nov. 26, 1967 and ushered in the era of “routes of many colors”.
The 6th Ave. express tracks opened at the same time as the first leg of the Chrystie St. connection - November 26, 1967. Between then and July 1, 1968, they were used only during rush hours by B and D trains. Because the 57th St. station wasn't quite ready yet, B trains terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours when they did operate (B service didn't operate during late nights or Sundays until July 1), and D trains shared the local tracks with the F between W. 4th and 34th Sts. On July 1, B trains began running 24/7 (express via 6th Ave. during rush hours only) and D trains began running express along 6th Ave 24/7.
7/1/68
Will the R-110A ever be put into service?It has been parked in the 239th street yard for a while.What line will get the R-142's first the 2 or the 5?
Although the car assignment hasn't come out yet, it's likely that the #5 line will get R-142s before the #2 line, since the E. 180th Street Shop was recently replaced with a new shop designed to handle the cars (the cars have roof-mounted unitized air conditioning units, necessitating that the maintenance shop have a high roof). The R-142As appear slated to be the ones to go to the #6 line.
David
Another reason to support the idea that the R142's will go to the #5 first is because that line now has the oldest redbirds (R26/28 and 29) in the fleet. Someone mentioned a while back that the R29 fleet is in such a poor state due to rust that they will have to be retired within the next 2 years out of safety concerns.
What are you going to do with the R29s that are on the #6? Exactly how many R29 cars are on the #6 currently?
According to Dec 99 New York Division ERA Bulletin, as of Oct 3 1999, there were 100 R-29's assigned to the #5 and another 100 R-29's assigned to #6.
Actually, there are 118 GE R-29s, assigned to E. 180th Street for #5 service, and 118 WH R-29s, assigned to Pelham for #6 service. The 100 cars of each cited in the NYD Bulletin are the service requirements; the other 18 of each are spares/long-term holds.
David
02/05/2000
The TA can always shift equipment around. If the record of the R-29's are worse than the R-33's and Mailine R-36's, the R-26,28 & 29's will go first. If Redbirds must remain somewhere, they can always shift them around.
BTW - Has anybody noticed how horendous some of the Redbirds look lately? I mean the silver paint on the roofs are fading away and the WHITE paint is showing through. Looks like the Redbirds have a bad case of receding hairline!!
Bill Newkirk
The interlocking signals on the Broad Street line are very interesting. On the express tracks, the signal for a straight route is red over yellow, red over green, yellow or green (single colors are usually used on little used crossovers, on such crossovers red over red means stop). Hence, a diverging track would be yellow over red or green over red.
Yet on the local tracks, a straight track is yellow over red or green over red, (or again, just yellow or just green). And red over yellow or red over green is diverging track.
The only other explanation that I can think up for this is that the top set is left, and the bottom set is right. That would work since most crossovers go that way, except for a couple on the express. Is this really in fact how it works?
Dave Pirmann has reorganized the nycsubway.org web site. I like the way he has done it -- he has organized the material by division (BMT,IRT,IND) MUCH MORE LOGICAL, Good work, Dave!!
Looks great. Placing all the division in order makes it easier to view a particular division. Great job Dave.
Geez, and I didn't even get to announce it here yet. :-) Thanks, glad you like it so far...
Well anyway. If you haven't seen it take a look at the main page
www.nycsubway.org and browse. I'm not done yet but the major stuff is done.
-Dave
Ahh, I see you've been busy. Yes, it looks good. I like the "3-pic" picture used to represent the divisions.
I also saw in the BMT section that it "will have a capsule history of the BMT" there soon.
Looks like I gotta get busy :) :)
--Mark
Hi, I just wonder how many of you are from NYC?
How many of you are form out of town?
I'm from NYC (actually, Lawn Guyland).
But I live in Boston, and commute to NYC one weekend/month to work. Such a deal!
I am a lifelong Syracusan.
Brooklyn,ny (Brighton Breach)
Hey, me, too ... although I don't live there now.
I used to live at 3130 Brighton 6th St.
--Mark
Bedford Park, Bronx. Great Place to live when you got 2 subway lines within 3 blocks of each other.
Bedford Park 'da Bronx here, also.
Peace,
Andee
My neighborhood too. For the last 12 years. Born in the Bronx, raised there, and STILL there after all these years.
Hey guys we should call ourselves the BP CREW
Peace,
Andee
I was born on the Upper West side, 114th & Amsterdam (near Tom's Restaurant,) but I now live in Jackson Heights, Queens, near the 74th street station on the 7, and the Roosevelt Ave station on the E,F,G, & R trains.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
I <3 N.Y.
Baltimore, MD - home of the w-i-d-e-s-t streetcar gauge in America!!!
I was born in Cincinnati, lived in North Carolina, Florida, South Carolina and Florida again before moving to the far north suburbs of Chicago in 1993. (Can anybody tell I grew up a military brat?) I moved into the city itself in 1996 and have been living here ever since. I've never lived in NYC, but I've visited a few times and have a couple of close friends who live there, so I've developed a rather close connection to the city over the past couple years. This coming June I plan on moving to Boston to transfer to a school there, and when I'm done with school in Boston I may come back to Chicago or I may decide that my future is in New York City.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm from Brooklyn, NY. From about the age of 5 (in 1960) on I lived in Sheepshead Bay two blocks from The Brighton Line. In 1978 work took me to Florida (blech). Been living there ever since but my heart is always in NY. I get to go back home a couple of weeks a year. Back to my old room too.
Alan Glick
I WAS BORN IN NYC NY NY AT A RAILFAN-WINDOW R -1 100 !!!
NOVEMBER 3 1951 HARLEM NY ( TAKE THE A TRAIN ALL THE WAY TO FAR ROCKWAY )
OY VEY!!!!!!!
oy vey ?? WHAT !!!!!!!!! ???????
02/05/2000
"oy vey??? WHAT!!!!!????"
OY vey railfans windows!, that's what!... or watt??
Bill Newkirk
Goyisha cup. I was born and raised in Brooklyn on Kings Highway(the only city street in NYC named Highway) and East 23, lived in LA and now Hawaii, but soon Virginia, but I am a BROOKLYNER(You can get that T shirt at the Brooklyn Brewery in Greenpoint which says in German YO! ICH BIN EIN BROOKLYNEER. see also their web site My brother, niece and nephew live in the Metro Area, so i go back often
....the only city street in NYC named Highway
I'm sure that those living along Edward L. Grant Highway in the Bronx will take notice to that.
How about the West Side Hway. Its not elevated any more below 59th street. It has intersections with traffic lights.
What was the Grant Highway before they changed its name, and the West Side Hwy isn't in actually West Sts and 12th Aves for addresses. Kings Hwy has been the same name for over 250 years now. Ask George Washington
If you go back that far enough, there were other roads called highways.
Not officially
Not officially, Kings Highway never had a name changeon 250 years.
The Edward L. Grant Highway was called Boscobel Avenue.
Peace,
Andee
So that is a new name, for the street. doesn t count. Kings Hwy was the original name.
The name was changed 40 - 45 years ago hardly making it new. And your original statement was that >>>Kings Highway was the only Street in NYC named highway<<< you did not qualify as to original name etc,
Peace,
Andee
Considering the settlement of new york is over 370 years old, 40 years is new
Mr. #1Brighton Exp Bob is correct, and I cannot tell a lie.
I would also like to thank New York and New Jersey for naming the bridge linking the two in my name back in 1931.
George W.
Hey George, what town are your orchards(Apple and Peach) in Virgina, if you get this wright you are the re-incarnation of GW
Oy Vey is right!
I was born and raised in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn.- right in between my two favorite BMT lines. Bay Parkway on the Sea Beach (N) and Avenue P on the Culver (F) I don't think I can ever call anywhere else home. Brooklyn is the world!!!!!!!!
I agree Mark. I live on the border of Brooklyn and Queens in a section known as Greenpoint. ( The Garden Spot ) I lucky to have the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown local (G) by me. Well, maybe not so lucky, but the 7 train is not far.
02/05/2000
I was born in Brooklyn, NY 48 years ago in Peck Memorial hospital in Crown Heights. My first few years was spent living with family in an apartment on Park Avenue (Brooklyn) and Skillman Street, a block away from the Myrtle Avenue "el".
From there we moved to 1420 Eastern Parkway between Howard and Pitkin Avenues. That's where I had my very first taste of subways near the Liviona Avenue (New Lots) line.
In July of 1957 we moved to Ocean and Newkirk Avenues in Flatbush, where the stage was set for my formative years to be immersed into AB & D types, R-27/30'3 and 32's, the best years of my life.
I live in south shore Nassau County and still visit the old neighborhood occasionally. Till this day, I still get my haircut at the barborshop in Newkirk Plaza!
Bill Newkirk
Hey Bill, I was born in Peck Memorial Hospital too, but quite a number of years before you. I grew up in the shadow of the BMT Jamaica el as it traveled up Crescent St. We called the area Cypress Hills, and yes, it really was part of Brooklyn. I left the city the same year that you moved to Flatbush, and call historic Gettysburg home now. My last visit to the city was 18 years ago, and unfortunately, it was by car. I still miss those els and subways 43 years later.
02/05/2000
Thanks Karl, I thought I was the only baby born at Peck Memorial! I understand that the building is still there, but supposedly is a Glatt Kosher hotel. Any confirmation on this?
Bill Newkirk
I've been gone too long, and no one in my family is left in the city to confirm or deny if the hospital is gone or not,. I often wondered why I wasn't born at Lutheran Hospital, which seemed to be the hospital for our residential area at that time. I should have asked my parents but it is too late now. Lutheran Hospital was fairly close to the Atlantic Ave station on the Canarsie Line wasn't it?
Hey Karl & Bill---- Tell me where Peck Memorial was and I'll take a look for it. Don't tell me that when you were born, you were too young to know where it was!!
I was born in the Swedish Hospital at the corner of Bedford Ave. and Dean St. in 1949. But don't go looking for it now, heypaul - it hasn't been there for about 25 years!
If the hospital where I was born wasn't around 25 years, I'd be in BIG trouble.
BTW, I was born in Brookdale.
I share a birthday with Pablo Picasso, Johann Strauss, Robert E. Byrd, Floyd Bennett (of field fame) and John Dodge (or car fame).
Big Deal:::so does 1 out of every 365 1/4 people about
I wasn't saying that my birthday is an important day, I was only naming those people who I share it with. Everybody shares their birthday with famous people.
What the **** is your problem?
You have to learn that there is a lot of good natured teasing on this site, Happy Birthday and many more.
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I think Humans-Amsterdam will catch on pretty fast. I sure as hell did.
Well Mr. Humans, I was born on October 27. That was the day when the New York Subway System was launched. I was born in 1940; the system was launched in 1904. So there. Also Teddy Roosevelt was born on October 27, and he's one of the four greatest presidents of all time.
And he was president when the IRT first opened.
Steve B-8AVEXP, you're a gentleman and a scholar. What about your Rockies? Are they going to make a move this season?
No Polictics Fred:
I was born on March 12th. The area code of the Chicago Loop is 312. Coincidence? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
That makes you a prototype of the man from the city of big shoulders. In other words, you can be called Mr. Chi. And don't let them change the area code or all bets are off.
My birthday is October 27th also.
Peace,
Andee
Subwaysurf: You just made a friend. In fact, are you aware that October 27 is Navy Day. When the Navy had a separate department in the US Government, they had a big celebration every October 27. There are no such big celebs today, but it is still called Navy Day.
I did not know that
Yes, Lutheran Hospital was on East NY bet Junius & Powell if I'm not mistaken. By the way, if you really miss the subways & els so much why don't you take a ride over. Gettysburgh isn't too far from NY, probably a 3 hr drive.
Sarge, I'd really like to, but I would have no place to go when I got there. All of my family is gone.
Incidentally, when I was a lot younger, my very best time between here and New York was 4 & 3/4 hours. I'm not sure that I am up to a trip like that anymore.
Nowhere to go? There are so many places and things to see in New York! People come from all over the world to visit. Do you think that they all have relatives that they are coming to visit?
I actually prefer to visit cities where I know nöone. No having to waste your time visiting their house in the middle of nowhere, no trying to dissuade them from convincing you to stay in their house, requiring a two hour commute to the very city you want to visit and sleeping on their ridiculously uncomfortable couch when you could instead use the plush facilities of a medium-priced hotel anywhere from zero to fifteen minutes from all the action.
Similarly, if any person I know would visit New York, I would be elated if they would elect to stay in a hotel. No having to prepare sleeping accomodations for them, no having to cook meals for them, and no transporting them. I would only meet them downtown to give them the tour.
I apologize for diverting the topic.
I'm from NYC (well, actually Westchester with a bit of Bensonhurst, Brooklyn). Anyone here from Westchester?
I was born at Mt. Sinai hospital. My family lived in St. Albans until I was three and then moved in 1958 to South Huntington.
These days, I live in Putnam County - just above the Westchester line where it's still possible to find a farm or two.
I know how you feel, I still have family in Westchester, Hotels in NY are very expensive, even the Ys are around 70 a night with bath down the hall. But you could always take the train from Harrisburg, and get a hotel in Newark, and take the Path In. The Hotels there are cheaper then in the city
Karl: I was in Gettysburg in August of 1998. Great town. Saw all the sites of the Civil War Battle, and even re-enacted Pickett's Charge. I'm an unreconstructed Yankee and my favorite general is William T. Sherman. I hope to visit the city again very soon. They also have some great restaurants in the town.
My high school band toured Gettysburg in May of 1972. It was an exchange deal with the Gettysburg HS band. We also saw the battleground, as well as Lincoln's itinerary when he gave the Gettysburg Address. Every building that was standing at the time of the Civil War has a commemorative plaque, IIRC.
Steve B, You should have looked me up! I was here. I've been here since 1957, first as a student, and then as a resident. There is a lot of history in this little town, and it is a nice place to live. I wlll always think of Brooklyn as my home though, because that is where I spent the first 20+ years of my life.
I was in Gettysburg last year around this time. I have family in a small town called Berryville Virginia, which is 60 miles west of Dullas Airport, and 10 miles east of Winchester. Found Gettysburg beautiful and very interesting, but I could not find a Gettysburg magnic anywhere. I hope to be moving to Berryville within 2 years, settle on a small farm and raise Golden Retrievers, but that is a dream. Only if I can convience my spouce, who never been in snow or cold weather.
Brighton Exp Bob, We have been through your section of Virginia several times, and it is beautiful country. We have had 27 inches of snow here in the last three weeks. I'm not sure how much of that Berryville got, but that would be some introduction to snow for your spouse, if you had that the first winter you moved to this area.
The choice of magnets is endless if you are talking about the type to put on the refrigerator, You just have to get into the right gift shop.
Karl, you are right about the type of Magnets, I went thru the middle of the week in Feb and only 3-4 shops were open, and non had a magnet, not even the shop at the Museum. When we move back there, I will get one then.
#1Brighton Express Bob: Raise Golden Retrievers? Now I know you're my pal. I have a goldie, she is going to be 14 on March 17 and her name is Daphne. She's my babe and I love her to death. Goldens are the greatest dogs in the world, and I will always have one, that I've promised myself.
I have 2 mixed Goldens,one we got from the pound at 5 months. Her name is Goldie and she just turned 5. The other is a mixed Golden, Lab and terrier, found him lost at about 6 weeks almost fell into sewer. Put ads up and nobody claimed him, He is named Yogi because he looked like Yogi Bear as a puppy(still does) he is 3 1/2 they are great. They love to take a ride. They miss my truck though
I AM BORN IN NYC ( right at the railfan window ) 11 03 51 AND PROUD OF IT MAN !!!!!
Come on, Mr. Willie. New York City is a big place; what part of New York City are you originally from and what was your favorite train?
Watch it Fred, Mr Willie lives near you in Pasadena, and it you don t behave I will give him your address and phone number.
Bob: You wouldn't! You can't be that cruel.
Yup, If I hear one more Political BS from you I will. Apr 29, can t make it, 2 weeks later I might have.
Well, that was back in 1972. I was a high school freshman at the time. The Gettysburg HS band visited us in March and spent a day in NYC. I remember getting nailed for skipping a class to attend both assemblies in which they performed.
Steve B, It's funny story time. In the spring of 1958 I was completing my freshman year here at the college. I was walking around the square here in Gettysburg, when I noticed three charter buses parked in front of the hotel. They were parked nose in and I noticed each bus had a small placard in the windshield with the words "Chartered by Franklin K Lane High School Brooklyn NY"....My alma mater! They didn't have Senior Trips, when I was a student there 5 years earlier. I was really shocked! I loitered in the area until they finished lunch and came out of the hotel. I saw a teacher-chaperone that I remembered and identified myself to her. She insisted on loading all of the buses, and then having me speak to the Seniors in each bus about my four years of work experience after high school, and how I then decided to go after a college education. I was surprised at the number of questions that the Seniors asked me in each bus. I guess that you could say I had my day in the limelight, but I doubt if I endeared myelf to Lane's Class of 58. It sure was one of those "small world" experiences for me to run into 120 people from my old home town way down here.
Interesting story indeed. The other significant part of my high school trip in 1972 is the fact that it was the last time I rode on the PA Turnpike. I'd love to go back someday and explore the abandoned tunnels, but that's another topic for another time.
Sea Beach Fred, I decided on John Buford as my choice of the generals, but that was only after I saw the movie "Gettysburg". There is a lot to see here, the place is just crawling with history.
I hope that the Shoneys Restaurant was not one of your favorites when you were here last. It closed up suddenly about a year ago, and nothing has replaced it yet.
02/05/2000
I don't know heypaul! All I know is that it's somewhere in Crown Heights. If I hear anything, I'll e-mail you.
Bill Newkirk
Hey guys--- I just looked it up in my 1962 Little Red Book Street Guide to Brooklyn---- Peck Memorial was on Crown and Albany... ( If I am not mistaken, there is a Lionel Train repair shop at the location now---- Just an inside joke with my friend in Gettysburg ) I will try to take a look in the area sometime.
Do you mean to say that the Carson C Peck Memorial Hospital was closed and he opened the Carson C Peck Lionel Train Repair Shop?
Heypaul, Check that good little book you have for the Lutheran Hospital, was it on Junius St?
After your mentioning the name of that place near Buffalo, I'm not sure I should answer your question about Lutheran.
According to the Red Book, Lutheran was located on East New York Ave. and Floogle Street, about half a block from the Susquehanna Hat Company.
You're right--- It was Junius Street.
Thank You! I knew that you would be able to tell me.
Sometime (perhaps by Email), you will have to tell me why that place west of Lockport offends you so much! After all, I'm not the one with the key to the food locker. :-)
"Floogle Street"!!!!!!!!!!
Was any one beside my cousins, myself and Joe Torre of the Yanks born at the Madison Park Hospital on Kings Hwy and East 26. The building is still there, but I understand it is a convelescent Hospital.???
It's called the New York Community Hospital. It's a normal hospital.
Gee, talking about hospitals, I was born (in '53) at Nassau Hospital (now Winthrop University Hosp) right next door to Mineola Station. Maybe thats why I'm such a train buff. I probably heard all the whistles, and even though I don't remember, I think in '53 there was still steam going through there!!!
Yeh Sarge Steam lasted on the LIRR thru 55 and 56
Yeah, but somehow I don't really recall 'em from the hospital nursery.
....From there we moved to 1420 Eastern Parkway
That is so COOL! I also lived at 1420 from 1982 to 1987, although it was on the other Olmsted and Vaux parkway (Ocean).
Now that I've entered the thread, you all know I'm from Brooklyn, not Delhi, Bombay, Budapest, Prague or The Hague.
Are you using those European Capitols as a fantasy Eurail Train ride someday?
No, it's a smooth transition from Humans, The Deli Best.
Paul: You ever heard of PS1 in Queens. Right near the Brooklyn border? I used to go to school there.
Well Mark W, what are you a milktoast? If you like the Sea Beach so much, let's get involved when Brighton Express Bob starts his usual bagging of my favorite subway line. If you're a Sea Beach man, there is no sitting on the sidelines. Maybe you could incorporate some of the line in a new knickname that shows your part in the train, like N Train Mark , or something. Get involved.
Originally from NYC but now in southern California.
Come on, Steve. The Empire State Bldg is from NYC. You were from Da Bronx!!!! Say it loud!
Steve: Southern California is a big place. Where in So Cal? I happen to live in Arcadia, a great community.
Bay Ridge, currently exiled in Flushing, till I find out where my next job is.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I spent the first 18 years of my life as a resident of Brooklyn, about 150 feet from the eastern transition of the LIRR Atlantic line transitions from Subway to El at Dewey Place. And, within 300 yards of both the Fulton Street Subway stations at Ralph and Rockaway Avenues. I started my solo railfanning at age 10 which then included my much-loved Myrtle Ave El. I had covered the entire system that existed then by my first year of high school in 1967.
I have lived a variety of places, right now Okemos (near East Lansing and MSU) Michigan. But I have been to Brooklyn every year of my life at least 10 occasions each time to visit home. So in some ways NYC is still where my heart is.
I live in Brooklyn, but I grew up in Yonkers, just across the city line. I also spent a couple of years in Tulsa, OK, after unemployment in the 1970s recession chased my family out of the Northeast.
I noticed a couple of posts by people who say they are FROM NYC but now live elsewhere. I guess you need four categories.
1) From NYC and live here.
2) From NYC and live elsewhere.
3) From elsewhere, live in NYC. That's me.
4) From elsewhere, live elsewhere, but interested in subways. Perhaps they wish they lived in NYC.
Good Idea
Perhaps they wish they lived in NYC.
A New Yorker friend of mine is fond of saying, "There are two types of people in America: Those who live in New York City, and those who wish they did."
Of course, he lives in Chicago. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am a Born and Bread Brooklyner, but I doubt I would want to live in Brooklyn Again, or NYC unless I was given a great job, condo and Limo.No I won t run for mayor.
I'm glad I don't live in the City - I enjoy the visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Nor would I want to live in Chicago again, even though I liked it when I did live there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm a number 3, a Swamp Yankee from CT. Lived in downtown Boston for a while, then SunnySide Queens, now a Long Islander. I call my wife a Cliff Dweller ... from apartment buildings in Brooklyn, then to attached houses. I introduced her to grass around the house and more then one block to the Delli. She hates my mom's place in CT, no side walks, fire plugs, or street lights. She also doesn't understand what all the fuss is about these dirty old trains. When we go to the city she prefers to ride a bus vs. subway (she use to take trolleys & Els to school ... maybe something bad happened that she hasn't told me about)
Mr t__:^)
I was Born and raised to the age of 12 in South Bend, Indiana in 1986 I was exiled to New York City in a Section in Queens called Flooo-Shing, been enjoying the Worlds fair r-36 cars since that time.
Kidding...about the Exiled part...
though I still miss my "Lake Effect", and Mounds and Mounds of snow on the ground.
What part of South Bend? I lived right on the eastern outskirts, near Town & Country Shopping Center. In fact, I remember when it opened.
Born and Raised in Queens, Always E&F rider, live on Upper East side now back in Queens, Always loved looking out the windows, and just like to have knowledge about what I'm riding in or on, Also love Airplanes and have a large collection of Photos and now want to start taking them of the Trains too
I live in the Long Island suburbs (Connecticut until a couple of years ago), but work in Manhattan.
I was born and raised in Astoria, Queens, I lived there until 1994. I currently live in Carmel, NY (Putnam County). However, I do commute Mon-Fri via Metro-North to Astoria, since I work as a conductor on the N line.
Long Schlep, does Metro North Give you a discount since you both work for the MTA
Yes, definitely a haul (about 2 hrs. door-to-door) but I wouldn't trade living here for anything. The railroad sure beats the hell out of driving (which I did for the first 3 years I lived here - I was working the 6 out of Pelham Bay at the time). It's all a matter of making that commuting time work for you. It's not so bad once you get used to it. Also, I can't beat the price - in 2 years using Metro-North, I've had to pay a grand total of 1 fare.
Billy P: You are a conductor on the best line of all, my Sea Beach. When I come to New York again and board the train, I'll let everyone know that Sea Beach Fred is on board. Then you can introduce yourself and we'll have a nice chat. Maybe this spring if the Stillwell Tour ever gets off the ground./
I was born in Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia.
Grew up in Oxford Circle, Philly, about a 15 minute walk from the El. In a way, I grew up on the El. My parents could only afford a car once I was in high school. And, I didn't learn to drive until after leaving home because I couldn't afford the insurance.
I spent 4 years in exile at the University of Delaware. That's where I developed my hatred of suburbia.
Then I worked in London for 4 months after graduating. I moved back to Philly where I lived for three years - Manayunk first, then Center City.
Two years ago I moved to NYC and I've lived on West Houston ever since.
I was born in Phila and am still here, although I've moved from South Phila to Eastwick back to South Phila and then to Roxborough (NW), which is where I sit as I write this.
I'm from Brooklyn.
Lived in New York (and worked for NYCT) for five years. Just trying to catch up on current news.
I'm from West Philadelphia. And it's my birthday!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!
Born in Inwood, then moved "uptown" to the Bronx and get to work the wonderful IRT.
I used to love the Inwood Park on Bdway just south of Dyckman St. My grandparents lived on Arden St until I was 13
I have spent my entire adolescent life of 56 years never leaving Sheepshead Bay in the boro of Brooklyn, except for one day spent at a place near the Canadian border, where newlyweds used to go.
Do you mean Niagara Falls?
Slowly I turned...step by step...inch by inch...
Slowly I turned...step by step...inch by inch...
....then I (((BOP!!!)))... then I..{{{MASH!!!}}}... then I...[[[CRUNCH!!!]]]...then I KNOCK 'EM DOWN!
GENTS WITHOUT CENTS
I feel another bout of Howard's Dizeeeze comin' on....
wayne :o>
I've lived in NYC for my whole life, right here in Midtown
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
i am from new jersey, but my father came from the bronx. my grandparents lived on washington ave before they the built the cross bronx expressway. my aunt live on the grandcourse at 199st. my uncle had a store at 200st.
Born and bred in Flatbush. Considered and still consider myself a Brooklynite.
Only a New Yorker to out-of-towners.
Now live at the end of the electric in Babylon, LI.
To even out of towners, consider your self a Brooklynite. People ask me where I am from, and if they pick up a little accent, they ask New York, and I say No, Brooklyn, and then they say isn t that the same, and I say no, Brooklyn was aseperate city longer then it was part of the city of NY, or Yankee(not the baseball team) by a defination off of a T shirt I got at LaGuardia years back. Anyone born withing 100 miles of Times Square, and I use the word BORN. That includes Sea Beach Fred.
Yankee has nothing to do with the New York area. A Yankee is a northerner.
To somebody from outside the US, a Yankee is simply an American.
To an American, a Yankee is a northerner.
To a northerner, a Yankee is somebody who lives in New England.
To a New Englander, a Yankee is somebody who lives in Vermont.
To a Vermonter, a Yankee is somebody who still uses an outhouse.
I'll stop there.
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
And to a Southerner, a Yankee is NEVER FORGIVEN :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not that type of Yankee
FYI: It's fitting that the word "Yankee" is sometimes used as an insult, because that's how it began.
In the 1600's, following the British conquest and renaming of the New Amsterdam colony, anything Dutch became a putdown: a "Dutch victory" is unconditional surrender, and a "Dutch treat" is not a treat at all.
The Dutch association with cheese resulted in the average Dutch male being referred to as John Cheese, which translates into the Dutch as Jan Kees ("YAHN KEESE"). That soon evolved into Yankee, and became associated with the antithesis of anything British.
The moral: Only New Yorkers could take an ethnic slur and make it something to be proud of!
The other version of that story was the that the Dutch in New Amsterdam called the English Johnnies(Jahnees) J pronounced Y, hence Yankees, so its originins arare local New York Tri State Area, as explained earlier, soon meant many things, depends who uses it. Even Conn Yankee in King Arthur s Court by Mark Twain, the hero came from :Southern Ct, which is well within 100 miles of Times Sq.
Some of us are on the other side of the Planet.
Iam from Swindon UK
Our first Overseas Person, A Brit
Aren't you overseas Bob, sort of?
Sort of over the pacific about 2300 miles SW of LA.
There are several of us. The only separation being distance and time.
Simon
Swindon UK
I am Brooklynite. I was born at Brookdale. Lived in Crown Heights by the 3/4 Utica Station until a year and a half ago. Moved along the 3 line to ENY. I now reside by the 3,L and the LIRR Bay Ridge line........ I am waiting for TA/MaBstoa to call me.......
3TM
Although I was born in Brooklyn, I lived in Ridgewood, Queens for my first 25 years (halfway between the Forest Ave. station on the M and the Halsey St. station on the L). For the last 25 I've lived in Nassau Co.
I was born in The Bronx and grew up in Brooklyn (Sheepshead Bay area, not far from Neck Rd. station on the Brighton line).
However, I've been living in the Chicago area for over 30 years now.
But, once a subway buff, always a subway buff.
-- Ed Sachs
I was born in Manhattan (1981), then moved to Queens when I was four and lived there until September of 1999. I've used the subway to go to school everyday from 4th grade through high school. That's why I became fascinated with subways. Throughout those years I've moved around. My home stations were the following in chronological order:
82 St JAckson Heights (Flushing Line)
52 St (Flushing Line)
40 St (Flushing Line)
Grand Ave (Queens Blvd Line)
Now I'm in college in Philly- 33rd Station on the Green Line and 34 St station on the MFL.
My heart will always be in NYC. It's quiet here compared to NYC, and the subway is a joke compared to NYC- it's brings you nowhere.
Born - Kings County Hospital Brooklyn, Moved to the Bronx lived there for 4 years, Gun Hill Road Station on the 5 (Rember the conduter taken the tokens on board?). Then Moved to Queens lived their for 6 years, Union Turnpike - Kew Garderns E&F. Then moved to Manhatan and lived here since- 96th St C. (and i also go to SI sometimes to vist family) Hows that for someone who doesn't even have a drivers Licences yet. (I think i am also the youngest subtalker, never to early to be a subway buff)
I'm the oldest subtalker who can't vote in this year's primary election. Or am I?
I work in New Jersey, have a house there as well as my long-time home in North Carolina, but I was born and raised mostly in Poughkeepsie, NY. I consider myself a North Carolinian.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does that mean that you consider yourself a "tarheel"?
Absolutely! And yes, it is properly with a small "t" - capitalized it has something to do with that school in Chapel Hill that thinks it's better than NC State (right) and Duke (wrong).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Boy that sounds good A Tar-Yankee Heal, or Yankee Tar Heal whatever
I am not from NYC, and have never lived there. Yet I have been there plenty of times, and been on the subways plenty of times. I live in Philadlephia, and get to ride SEPTA every weekday.
I was born in New Bedford (Acushnet) MA in 1954 and emigrated to Brooklyn at the age of four days (I was a foundling). I spent about eighteen months at Dora Court (2511 Newkirk Avenue) before moving to Elmont, where I stayed until 1976, when I married. I didn't go very far - about four miles away to Floral Park, Queens. I stayed in that area until 1984 when I moved to New Hyde Park, then to Westbury in 1987, finally to my present location, West Babylon in 1989. So I guess that makes me a New Yorker.
Wayne
Ok 4 days will make you a Native Brooklyner.
I consider myself a New Yorker. I was born in Germany (I am an American) and came to the states when I was 4. The early yeaes were filled with moves due to being an Army brat, but my sister was boren on Governor's Island. I went to second grade in bellmore, Long Island and moved to Brooklyn for third grade through High School. I wass yanked from the city after graduation and finally got back in Spring 1994.(and now planning on moving across the Hudson).
Born Terrace Heights Hospital, Holliswood, New York 1959. (It's now a mental hospital- don't laugh!) Lived in East Meadow till February 1963 when we moved in Whitestone, Queens, where my folks still live. No subways there, but very infrequent bus service to the suwbay terminals at Main Street Flushing (via Q16 via Francis Lewis ONLY) and 179th Street Jamaica (Q76, no Sunday service).
Lived in College Point from 1983 to 1989. Decent Q65 (Queens Surface) service to Flushing and Jamaica subways except for a week after a rainstorm.
Since 1989, the Mitchell Gardens co-ops of Flushing. (The Whitestone Expressway goes right behind me.) Choice of many buses to Flushing, but I still usually make the twenty-minute walk to the station even AFTER the elimination of two-fare zones.
You said you were born in Terrace Heights Hospital, which is now a mental hospital. I recently spent a few weeks there under the skillful eye of Drs Howard Fine and Howard. Any relation?
Are you sure it wasn t Larry Fein, of Howard, Howard, Howard and Fein
#4 Sea Beach Fred in a Californian who has lived in the Golden State for 45 year. I'm 59 years old and have visited New York three times since I moved away. The Dodgers followed me To California but I'm a Mets fan. My wife bought me a brand new Mets shirt yesterday, so I'm getting ready for the 2000 season. I'm going to start reading the other replies so I can get a feel where everyone is from.
Let's see. I was born in South Bend, Indiana - share the same birthday with Roy Campanella and Jodie Foster. Am a Notre Dame bleeder for life. Moved to New Jersey at the age of ten; became immersed in the NYC subway system and took a special liking to the A train. Must have been those R-10s that did it. Also became a Mets fan; 1969 was a very good year. Moved to Connecticut at the age of 16; finished high school there and enrolled at UConn. Finished my bachelor's in 1980 and came out to Colorado in September of that year. Since 1984, I've made it back east at least once a year and usually spend a few days in the city railfanning.
Although I've never lived in New York, a lot of people think I have. Must be the slight Jersey flavor in my speech.
Steve: Disregard my last message. You're a Mets fan just like me. How could I have thought you a Rockies fan. I have my moments.
I am from NYC, currently living in Cary, North Carolina, I get back 4X a year to visit all my family who still lives in Laurelton, Queens.
I was born in at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital in Brooklyn, NY in (1974) I live in Atlantic Towers on Hopkinson Ave and Atlantic until i was 3. Then my mother move herself and I to Ocean Ave in Brooklyn. I believe the address was 666 Ocean Apt. 3C. The neighborhood is not the same any more. Ther I have memories riding the D Express to Coney Island and sometimes the M local. MY mother used to ride the local, because I wasn't quite big enough to ride the express during rush hour. She thought I would get trampled. Go figure...
At the age of six, I moved with my mother to Laurelton, Queens. Which was once considered the suburbs, but looks more and more Flatbush on Merrick with all the traffic.
Although I miss NY, I like the southern living style now. But love trains, always have and always will....
Hey does anyone model railroads? particularly HO guge.. if so please email me, I would like to chat...
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Hi, I just wonder how many of you are from NYC?
How many of you are form out of town?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm from Toronto. I've never been to NYC -- I started visiting Subtalk after the major Toronto transit webboard was turned totalitarian by the management...
WOW this was some thread !!!
I've watched this site grow from mainly a bunch of NYC subway fans to a group of mass transit buffs from far and wide (USA and Europe too).
I see more and more post about Philly, Chicago, London AND don't mind a bit ... Thanks Dave, you've created a monster.
Mr t__:^)
queens. Long Island city/ Astoria border
Born in Brooklyn Unity Hospital in 1959. I have lived in Queens all my life (Forest Hills, Rego Park-Corona, Kew Gardens, Briarwood and Kew Gardens Hills). I take either the Q74 to The Union Tpke Station or the Q20A or B or the Q44 to the Van Wyck Blvd. Station. Some days, when I want variety, I'll take the Q44 to Roosevelt Ave to get the #7. I hate express busses!
grew up in mill basin first(used to take the B-3 to the D,M or QB). Moved to Sheepsead Bay (1978-1993). Rode the M a lot(i was at the Avenue U stop) and remember the D being 4 cars on weekends. Also can remember April of 1986:the first(and not the last) rerouting of the trains over the manhattan bridge. And how long did they predict it would be completly fixed(now going on 15 years)...
(Also can remember April of 1986:the first(and not the last) rerouting of the trains over the manhattan bridge. And how long did they predict it would be completly fixed(now going on 15 years)... )
There was a band in the 70's that called itself NRBQ. If I am correct, they took their name from the 4 lines on the Broadway line. I guess they had to break up when the Manny B went out of service.
LOL.
Looking for fellow redbird fans interested in
meeting up and riding the soon-to-be-extinct
redbirds on the 2 line. Would like to compose
a documentary on the 'birds with comments and
interviews from redbird fans.
As I said before, Count me in!
Can anyone explain why both the IND and IRT 34th St./Penn. Sta. subway platforms are configured with 2 side platforms and 1 island platform rather than 2 island platforms? I used to think that this had something to do with the amtrak tunnels underneath, but there are crossunders (which seems to indicate that there's plenty of room between the subway tunnels and the rail tunnels), so that explanation doesn't make much sense. The description of both stations on this website says that this arrangement was meant to discourage transfers between express and local trains. I don't understand why that would have been a concern. Can anyone provide more details?
I dunno why. I am guessing it's either the track alignments @ Penn Station for the LIRR and other trains, or it could have something to do with the foundation of Madison Square Garden. Then again, it could be something else totally different. I usually ride the E to 34th if I go to the Garden, been there 2x - Ranger game in October & Metallica/St. Luke's Orchestra concert in November, the latter of which I sat on the 7th ave side, the former, on 8th ave. I do like the configuration, makes it distinct from all other subway stations in New York. And if you're going to the Garden, it's perfect because if you sit on the 7th ave side, you can take an IRT train, or the 8th ave side, an IND. That's my point of view.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
I <3 N.Y.
BTW
Let's Go Rangers!!!! MSG Blue Seats RULE!!!!
No, the IRT station was opened in 1918, the IND was opened in 1932. The Garden was opened in 1968! Doesn't it look a lot younger than the subway?
Ahh true that, my mistake. I forgot, the Garden used to be @ 50th & 8th.
That may explain ANOTHER reason for the upper and lower level stations at 50th on the IND- this way folks coming out of the Garden don't crowd on one local side platform..If you were headed home to Queens you had a sep platform from the folks going uptown to home in Wash Heights or the Bronx....
That's a whole different kettle of fish. E trains turn eastward under 53rd St. just to the north of that station, and that lower level puts them at the proper grade. It would have been difficult, if not impossible, to have diverging tracks at that location mostly because you also have the B/D tracks coming in from the north. There are three really hairy flying junctions on the IND, and that's one of them. The other two? The north of Rockefeller Center and the one under Smith St. just west of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. The latter tops them all.
These stations, with people coming from the RR lines, would have a large amount of boarding and exiting to the terminals. transferring would make the situation worse. Besides, it's not necessary to transfer there, Times Square, which has a normal setup, is only one stop away.
To discourage riders from using this station as a transfer between local and express trains, because of the high volume expected at these stations.
>>>Can anyone explain why both the IND and IRT 34th St./Penn. Sta. subway platforms are configured
with 2 side platforms and 1 island platform rather than 2 island platforms?<<<
Actually...they're DESIGNED so no easy local-express transfers are possible.
The IRT was concerned about overcrowding at the busy Penn Station stop when the station was built, so they deliberately constructed the platforms that way. When the IND constructed its station in the 1930s, they followed suit.
That's the story I hear, anyway.
If you stand near the steps, and you see the lights in the tunnel, you can make a transfer if you hustle. Or wait till you get to 14th or 42nd. But it IS pretty inconvenient.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The layout also separates boarding passengers by their destinations, providing better distribution of passengers exiting Penn. (They come in bigger bunches than those exiting subway trains)
I guess thats the reason for the same layout at the Atlantic Av IRT Station since the LIRR is there. It means that any LIRR passenger who wants to go to the Lexington Line will change at Nevins so they won't have to climb steps.(By the way, I did say the IRT Atlantic Av station, I could never figure out the configuration of the LL Atlantic Av sta. But I guess it will be simpler when they take down the Sneidiker Av El)
No, the Atlantic station is set up that way because the express tracks and the island platform were built in 1908 for the IRT Brooklyn Extension. The outer platforms and tracks were added in 1919 when the "H" system was created.
You can also use the electronic train annunciators at either station.
[f you stand near the steps, and you see the lights in the tunnel, you can make a transfer if you hustle.]
That's Hustle with a capital H. In my 11 years going uptown I've done a few times, but mostly it wasn't worth the bother because it's a LONG run to get there in time.
Mr t__:^)
Compare these platforms with the mess at Grand Central, and you'll see the reason why! Since the Lex didn't have any other express stops nearby, (at the time of construction that, is) they were forced to make it a 'normal' express stop, with the resulting crush there...If there had been a 59th St available as an express stop at construction time, they might have done it at Grand Central,too..
The original design for the Grand Central subway staton was made at a time when Grand Central was simply a station for people who traveled in and out of the city. It was more like an airport rather than a commuter rail terminal. The idea of thousands of people living in Rockland County and Connecticut having to transfer to subway lines at GC to commute to jobs in Manhattan every day was not in the designers mindset.
Also remember that the Grand Central Terminal we know today did not exist in 1904. The old Grand Central Depot was still around.
Of course, the one with the problems is the Lexington Avenue station, opened 6 years after the modern terminal.
It was also and 26th and Fifth at one time too.
It's a handle I gave myself, as a little internet handle since I am a Ranger fan. I use this also as the administrator of the NY Rangers message board @ www.nhlfans.net Plus, I was born a block away from Broadway, Amsterdam Ave to be exact. That's the story, if anybody actually cares, lol.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
tripod78@yahoo.com
nyctransitguy@hotmail.com
I <3 N.Y.
Can anyone tell me when and why the Newark City Subway mounted pantographs on top of its PCC's? Feel free to point me to a site or page site or past posting here.
Interesting that the trolley pole is still there, vestigally I imagine. (Maybe some trolley museums which inherit the cars will resurrect the trolly poles.)
I plan to take a day off work to railfan and photograph the PCC's this month before they are retired. Anyone else thinking the same?
Ooops, I didn't see your question. I just mentioned the answer
in a post about Catenary wire.
I also am gonna ride the Newark City Subway again (like i have many times) I am gonna ride it on the last day of operation as the "Newark City Subway" then the first day as the "Inter-City Subway" because of the exspansion to downtown Bloomfield, If you want to see the new 2000 Trolley Cars that will take the place of the old ones go to the corner of Watsessing Ave and Franklin St on the border of Bloomfield and Belleville and you can see the new cars
Catch the current issue of RailPace and see three shots of the Newark Subway. Two of the new Light Rail cars (one being under the PATH (PRR) overpass at Harrision. See a shot of Franlin Ave of the loop and now the track that continues beyone. One PCC is on the new track, one just out of the loop. Both using Pantagrpahs but they stil have their trolley poles, wierd too with the poles down and locked.
Drop by and see the new update at TransiTALK. Update with countless new bus and rail images (new R-142, LIRR, and Redbirds included). Click here to catch the TransiTALK Update
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
I was just wondering about the MDBF mileage figures. Are there any figures for how much it costs to maintain the different class car fleets? I would imagine that the high MDBF figures reflect increased expenditures in preventive maintenance. I am curious what the costs per car would be to achieve the high MDBF figures?
Back in the mid-1980s there was an UMTA Section 8 funded study (innovative technical studies grant) for a "cost by line" study, which I managed. We developed two costs for each subway car class -- a "maintenance" cost and a "trouble" cost (basically the cost of road car inspectors plus "troubles off inspections", e.g. things that were broken that had to be fixed when found). I have no idea whether NYCT has ever updated this study, but we did find very significant differences in per-mile costs between car classes. The study itself is a public document, and can be ordered from the National Technical Information Service (NTIS). I haven't checked, but for all I know it may be online by now.
I am not clear what a "maintenance" cost and a "trouble" cost is. I was wondering whether the increased distance between failures was a consequence of increased expenditures to aggressively do preventive maintenance?
There was a statistic that was kept which was referred to as "Miles per maintenance man-hours". Since the cost of one man-hour could be determined, keeping track of fleet maintenance costs was possible. However, this is not the case since th form that was filled out by the car inspector (Referred to as the "0-2 Card"), which recorded actual time spent on assignment, has been obsoleted.
As to your second question, you are correct. The SMS program is largely responsible for the vast increase in MDBF.
Thanks Steve. Are there figures for what the scheduled maintenance on the cars costs? I seemed to remember taking a tour of the Coney Island Shops several years ago. At the time, I think the R-68's were in the midst of some major system replacement.
I ask the question about cost, because I have the sense that a really aggressive preventive maintenance approach can be rather expensive.
I can't give you any figures, but I can explain some of the theory behind agressive maintenance. When something breaks down, the failing component is going to have to be replaced no matter what. So as far as repair work is concerned - that cost is there either way. Secondly, some sort of running inspection is required at fixed intervals anyway, so a certain cost is expended there no matter what. Agressive inspections entail some more labor costs, maybe 5 hours per car, to catch potential failures before they happen. HOWEVER, when a car breaks down on the road, you have additional costs which cannot be controlled.
The crew on the failing train may incur overtime due to the breakdown. Numerous following trains are delayed or rerouted. Service suffers up and down the line, causing other businesses to incur costs or suffer losses. The train may have to be towed back to a yard, or in the case of a broken axle (it happened twice in Boston recently) or similar major failure, a repair crew may have to be sent to the scene with special equipment. If a door fails, someone might get hurt, either by the door itself or by stepping through an opening into a tunnel. Other failures also can injure, for example a loose interior cover swinging out and striking a passenger. All of these things cost money, and most are preventable.
As the auto repairman says "You can pay me now - or pay me later".
"Maintenance" is the labor and materials for routine activities (in the 1980s, these were "A", "B", and "C" maintenance levels). "Trouble" is anything unscheduled, any additional hours to finish scheduled work, etc. THe idea was that the ratio of trouble to maintenance cost would indicate classes of cars (or specific inspection barns -- there were 11 then) that were "bad actors". As it turned out, there was substantial variance in the maintenance/trouble ratio between car classes, as well as in total cost per mile, but data were not sufficiently detailed to do a proper analysis.
When I was at the TA in materials management 1986 to 1988, there was a big emphasis on getting all the parts needed for maintenance.
When I visited some old co-workers a few years later, in the recession, they said everything had changed, and they were in "would the world end tomarrow" mode. Ie. "Would the world end tomarrow if we ran out of those parts."
Was scheduled maintenance cut back in the early 1990s recession? The TA certainly stopped buying cars, and failed to start any significant expansions.
I'll have to order up a copy. Several times I've asked TA officials if they know the cost by line, and they have said that they don't. Moveover, they don't want to know, because the MTA doesn't want to put the word out which rail/bus lines are subsidizing which other rail/bus lines.
Line by line costs are interesting but some feeder lines are needed to support the overall system. Access is the important indicator.
Cost of maintaining equipment is diferent than perfomance of routes. If a class of equipment has high maintanace costs relative to others then replacement or a rebuild may be needed. Looking at the data, especially with buses will help select what buses should be replaced or rebuilt and with what.
Shop by shop comparisons may tell if a shop is using better practices but it is difficult to compare staff if they are working with different equipment.
And yes there is mean cost per car class for maintenance if you want to find it. The TA may not report it or want to find it.
Recently i was at the 125th station, i noticed that on the northbound side right at the beginning of the platform on the 4,5 line side, i noticed a signal tower with working lights inside is this a active tower?I also noticed the same thing at 161th Street station{IND southbound side}
These towers generally speaking are unmanned except during G.O.'s. when they are manned. They are active. These types of towers are controlled by a master tower. In the case of 161st St., it would be the 205th St tower. The lights that you see are indicator lights on the board of the interlocking machine. You can get a close up look at this type of tower at tht Transit Museum.
Peace,
Andee
Hi all, since I am only 14 I never saw double letter lines because the year I was born (1985) was the year where double letters ended. I never got to ride lines like the AA, Culver Shuttle, EE and my favorite never seen line the 8. (3rd Ave. El) So how was it to ride all of those great lines, Riding on lines that are not here today and going down trackways that are not used or have been torn down? I wish I could ride those lines cause it would have been heaven.
Christopher Rivera
Also how were the cars like in the past??
My only recollection of riding trains no longer here is of the Jamaica Ave. el.
Be thankful you missed the late 70's/early 80's. The system was falling apart, grafitti was everywhere and crime was beyond belief. There were times in 1979 and 80 when it appeared the entire system would collapse.
take away the ""crime"?? and grafitti it semed as good and or better !!! especially the r1-9s r 10s r30s etc....
Quotation marks go OUTSIDE other punctuation.
What R-1/9, in 1979/80?
PLEASE!! Between the balky cars, the HORRIBLE condition a LOT of the track was in, the graffiti covered EVERYTHING, you name it. Today is much much better, so what if the R68s SEEM to be going a little slow,or management doesn't seem to know the term "RAPID" transit..still much improved & liveable for Joe Commuter. oh yeah, its a hundred times safer too! No NEED for the Red Berets to ride the rails..(where is Curtis today anyway??-Back managing a Mickey D's??)
Curtis is broadcasting just about 24 hours a day on WABC, whenever Rush Limbaugh or the Yankees aren't on.
The period of 1960-1970 was the best time to be a subway rider as far as cars models go, because you went from the last of the first-generation types on the BMT and IRT to the beginning of the current body design and air conditioning with the R-40M/R-42. The down side was, deferred maintenance really started to take hold by the mid 60s, and sewed the seeds for the disasters of the 1970s-1980s.
In that 10-year period, you could ride Standards, Triplexes, Q cars, Lov Vs, Worlds Fair Low Vs and every R-series car ever made from the R-1s to the R-42s. And back then, until you got to the R-16/R-17 design, every car modle had its own distinct look -- even a non-railfan could tell a multisection unit from an R-10.
Fifteen years from now, there will probably be only three types of cars on the IRT (R-62, R-142 and the R-whatever-it-is-that-replaces-the-last-of-the-Redbirds), while the BMT and IND might have as many as six different styles around, if the R-32s do make it to their 50th birthday.
The IRT historically was always the home of less varied body types,its just a smaller system. Back before 1949, ALL IRT car bodies looked basically the same, except for the 1939 WF cars. You had to more than a casual railfan to tell the difference between Hi and Low-Vs, trailers and powered cars. Same thing withthe pre-R-10 IND, only a true rail buff could tell the diff between an R-1 and an R-9 (if you hid the road numbers that is!)
But once you got in the 60's the post low & high V's were very varied, even on one train. I never remember any R10's mixed with later models but on the IRT you had many trains with R-12's mixed with later models.
Something else I noticed too in the 60's -- even though the IRT car types were being mixed, they were all that sooty black, and you could always tell each type apart.
Once they began getting the silver & blue MTA paint, they all seemed to blend together.
I remember the first silver and blue paint job I saw -- an R-17 on the 6 pulling into Grand Central on the downtown side. I thought it looked great -- until I stepped inside and saw that gray-and-green paint scheme.
As the 70s wore on, it seemed like the MTA's attitude towards maintenance was "if we paint it, maybe no one will notice half the door leaves are broken and the lights don't work." Combined with the onset of the graffiti scourge, I came to associate the blue-and-silver with the decline of the subway system.
When they painted the R1-9's that gray and green I thought they looked disgusting.
I thought the R7 and R9 trains in their original green paint scheme looked the best. I sometimes wish the "redbirds" were painted that color.
What about when before the #7's were painted white???
I believe the Flushing R36's were still sporting their WF blue color scheme before they were painted the infamous "garbage truck" white, although it might have been obscurred by dirt and grafitti.
Photos in the NYC subway car book show that some of the WF R36's went from their original, though filthy and faded, blue/white scheme to the MTA blue/silver scheme -- THEN to the garbage truck white.
What was even more disgusting on the R1-9 cars was that god-awful orange and blue they tried on one trainset. Looked just about like the color of the puke it induced.
I remember the terrible heat on the IRT in the summer. John Lindsey who was the mayor at that time said that the IRT couldn't be air conditioned because the profile of the car was smaller than the IND/BMT and there was no room for the equipment. What a jerk! That was one of the reasons I moved out of NYC. I didn't feel like going to work for the rest of my life wearing a suit and tie in a rolling oven. He also taxed the daylights out of me to pay for assorted deadbeats all of whom had a long sad story on why they couldn't pull their own weight. I think Guiliani is great. If he were mayor then I would still be in NYC.
[I remember the terrible heat on the IRT in the summer. John Lindsey who was the mayor at that time said that the IRT couldn't be air conditioned because the profile of the car was smaller than the
IND/BMT and there was no room for the equipment. What a jerk!]
He also conveniently forgot that PATH/H&M had been able to air condition cars that were similar in size to the IRT's.
TA and MTA officials were reminded about that for the next decade, as first the R-40s, then the R-42s, R-44s and R-46s arrived. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into installing the AC units on the R-33s in 1978.
R29 and R33 wore red as delivered (not exactly what they are wearing today). R21 and R22 were the charcoal grey, which was what the track dust turned the original olive drab.
Wayne
Yeah, I remember that red on the R29/33's VERY well -- the yellow grab irons really stood out. The green R-21/22's looked good when brand new, as the bare metal at the bottom of the doors (the floor edge runners, or whatever they are called) stood out.
I remember when the R33/36 WF cars were delivered -- the car washers at Corona were not completely installed. Then winter came, so the cars actually did get VERY dirty, almost to the point where they were starting to look like their mainline brethren. The car washers started being used around March of 1964, and the cars somehow came clean again!!
Did the whole system have the silver and blue paint in some way?????
Not quite. Only a handful of R-7s and R-9s on the Eastern Division were painted silver and blue, and I never saw any of them. None of the oldtimers which remained on the IND were repainted, and the Flushing R-36s were passed over the first time around in 1970-71. While the R-32s kept their fluted sides, their doors were painted silver on the outside.
I think perhaps the pre-war IRT had more distinctions than that of the standard IND. Don't get me wrong, though. I loved the R-1-9 series.
But the Hi-V's had differences: window arrangements, railroad roofs vs Deck roof. MUDC vs manual doors. Yes, there was variety.
And each division seemed to have its own odors. Always associate juicy fruit gum with the old IRT. Dnetyne with the new R17's.
The R22 came in with sealedbeam headlights; all prior cars had plain headlights. The view from the front of a car without bright headlights and with bulbs on the interior gave a neat effect; you almost felt part of the train, especially if the front window dropped down, like the BMT had.
srandards.
Brian Cudahy makes a good analogy in Under the Sidewalks of New York, comparing the IRT car variations to watermark variations on postage stamps. He goes on to say that it was possible to distinguish a train of Gibbs Hi-Vs from a train of 1925 Lo-Vs by the sound of the motors. Never having ridden on any prewar IRT equipment, I can't substantiate that; however, since all prewar cars had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, the moans and groans were probably the same as the sounds I remember on the R-1/9s and BMT standards.
He's hosting a successful talk show on WABC with Ron Kuby. But he still wears that beret ...
Oh..ok...Ive been listening to the same show in the morning now for almost 15 years now,* so I have NO idea whos on what station in the am....
*three guesses which show that is....
Howard Stern?
Don Imus?
NPR?
If you're like me its Howard Stern. That's the only time I don't have CBS-FM 101.1 on.
Howard is okay, but he's getting abit long in the tooth. Alot of his jokes are getting old and tired. I tend to enjoy the antics of Opie and Anthony in the afternoon (107 FM?). After Stern I turn to "The Radio Chick". She's on the same station before the O&A Show.
Doug aka BMTman
I used to love IMUS until WNBC went off the air and he went to WFAN. I think the Fan cut off all the risky stuff and ruined his show. Unless Imus himself just got duller. I'm rarely up for Howard but when I am I always listen to him. Then its CBS-FM the rest of the time. I had Don K Reed's Doo Op Shop on all night and Cousin Brucie is the greatest. (Present company excluded, Todd G if you're on!)
Unfortunatly my favorite morning talk show host, Lionel, quit 2 years ago. Now I strictly listen to WCBS 880.
WNEW-FM 102.7.
I listen to NewsRadio 88 myself.
--Mark
I guess you are not George, you would have told me where all your Apple Trees are planted. Winchester Fredricks County Va
Right off Route 522, and just a half a mile up the road from my Mom & Dad's house on Oates Avenue, Winchester VA 22601.
Man that little town has become a serious small city!
Wayne
Wow! Someone else in here from Winchester? I lived there in 1981 -- way out on the east side of town, Maloy Road (22607).
Funny, I am planning to move to Berryville 10 miles East on Rt 7 either later this year or early next. I love that era, Hopefully Virginia will run a commuter train out there. I know if you go up to W Va, you can catch the Maryland Train to DC twice a day.
WNEW 102.7 should become the official Subtalk radio station.
WIRT 10.27 MHzx10
In two words: Dirty, filthy. (inside & outside)
You left off one word (total should be three): HOT
It was a lot of fun to ride the els and subways in the 1940's and 1950's. All of the trains were great! We never had to worry about which car was air-conditioned, because none of them were.
The problem with the lack of air-conditioning was not just the heat, but also the noise. Usually all of the doors between cars were open. If you had a car with flat wheels, the noise would reach dangerous levels (unless the train was above ground). I'm sure I suffered some permanent hearing damage during those years.
I did like the Bronx Third Avenue el; I lived at Gun Hill Road during its last two years. The stations below Fordham Road looked like they hadn't changed in 80 years.
I think I must have been in an era of better maintenance, because I don't remember many flat wheels, not on the subways and els anyway. On the freight railroads it was another story, it seemed that every other car had a flat wheel.
I can't ever remember the storm doors being open on the Standards, no matter how hot it was.
The entire fleet of R16's that ran on the J line towards their final days seemed to have nothing but flat wheels.
I saw several pictures of the interiors of the R-16's after they redid the door motors, and had to slant the upper part of the interior panels,it really made those cars look strange!
Yup, which is why I chose it to be on my handle.
The system was very noisy in the 1970s when the cars were not maintained well. The IRT equipment seemed to be the worst, and their doors were always open in the summer. The R10s were another loud group of cars.
"I can't ever remember the storm doors being open on the Standards, no matter how hot it was."
The storm doors on the Standards never opened, they were locked and only opened electrically.
Did they actually slide open, or where they just unlocked like on an R-68?
I'm not sure. I never saw them open or close. I just saw them closed and remember travelling with my gandmother and having to run from one car to the next at each station!! I only learned about them being operated electrically from subtalk.
I think the storm doors slid on a track like the
regular doors.
It is a little known fact ( and not true ) that the
storm doors only opened in stormy weather, so as to
provide the passengers with some thrills and chills.
People then didn't have to be kept in a climate
controlled climate to keep from spoiling..
The storm doors on a Standard did slide on a track, and they could be opened and closed again in case of emergency from the "conductors" control panel.
There was a bypass button on some of the series of Standards. I can't remember now whether it was the earlier or later ones. It was located under the double seat opposite the motorman's compartment. On the Standard this double seat faced the compartment. You could lift up the wicker seat cushion and press the button on top of a valve like affair, and the storm door would slide open. It apparently did not affect the operation of the train or give any indication to the operators. Opening one storm door did not accomplish anything unless you had a friend in the next car, who could duplicate your efforts and open the facing storm door. On straight track this was not a problem, but on any kind of a curve or turn, the 67 foot length of the car presented a very dangerous situation if a person were to try to pass between cars.
02/06/2000
Those end storm doors on the BMT Standards were never open for passenger egress. Due to the fact that of very close clearances when switching and on curves, someone changing cars could actually get caught and maybe fall to the tracks.
Bill Newkirk
Which, IIRC, is the exact same reason the 75' cars have their storm doors locked.
For me, riding in the 60's and 70's was wonderful.
We had the BMT Triplexes, the BMT Standards, and the
IND R 1/9's. It was a world illuminated by bare
light bulbs. In the winter time, you could get nice
and warm and toasty sitting on one of the wicker
seats of an R 1/9 heated by its own heater. Instead
of listening to the feedback of the PA system, you
could listen to the pumping of an air compressor, or
listen to the air release sounds of the air brakes.
When a train went over a switch, you could look down
the set of cars, and watch the lights blink on and
off from car to car. If you were riding a Triplex,
you could ride in that little section between two
cars. If you were lucky, and could get to the front
window on the front car, you could look out to your
heart's content. Kids actually wanted to look out
the front window. On the Triplexes, Standards, and
even some of the newer IRT cars, the front window
would drop down half way and you could go barreling
along on an express run and have the wind blow in
your face.
Another big thing was I rode the trains and
enjoyed the trains without knowing a whole lot about
the trains. It was fun riding the trains, and fun
running into a set of R9's in their final days. It
wasn't so much of a head trip about how much I knew,
as it was how good it felt.
So Christopher, my advice, and remember it is coming
from someone who is not dealing with a full deck, is
to ride the subways and experience it. Watch the
motorman, or watch out the front window, or watch
the speedometer in the cab, or DO whatever speaks to
your heart. Get to KNOW transit, nor just know
about it.
Hey Christopher, around the time of the transit
strike, when I was trying to organize people here to
get ready to provide alternate ways to get around
the city, didn't you volunteer to be in charge of
the Marine Operations? If that was you, thanks for
being the only one on this board who pitched in.
02/05/2000
Chris Rivera,
Sounds like you identify with that old Poni-tails record, "Born to late". Yes you lament about missing those great now begone subway lines and equipment. But I shouldn't talk either, although I got to ride the Myrtle Ave and Bronx 3rd Ave "el's",ride the BMT Standards,D & Q Types, R1-9's and witness brand new R-27/30's and 32's, I too am envious of older railfans. Railfans who rode the Manhattan "els", elevated and trolley cars too. We can all have comfort in one thing, we identify with the promise of a Second Avenue subway. Notice I didn't say STUBWAY !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey Paul and I are from the same school(Literary) I agree with him, but the one thing that was not that great was standing up on a pre Aircon train, in the middle of the summer, in 90 degree weather and 90 plus humidity, and smell everyone around you.
I rode the trains a lot before A/C, and I don't remember body odor being much of a problem. Maybe people showered more in the old days. Now when somebody "lost their lunch", that was another story, that was enough to drive you off the train at the next stop.
Body oder is a bigger problem on Ac'd cars now. People sweat in blistering hot stations, then when they've developed a nice funk, they get on a train which is completely sealed because of the AC. At least the old cars, with their windows and storm doors open, created a nice breeze which dissipated most undesireable odors.
I feel the same way, Bill - I remember the Q's, Standards, Triplexes, R1-9's, and express service on the BMT Broadway line with Brighton, Sea Beach and West End trains following one right after another over the Manhattan Bridge. But I often wondered what it was like when the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave. Els made their way up and down Manhattan, and the Fulton, Lexington and 5th Ave. Els were still around in Brooklyn. Looks like we were all "Born Too Late".
Does anyone remember the 3rd Ave below 149th St, I do vagually rideing it. But I do remember it from 14th St from my Great Uncle s Store 25 feet East of 3rd. and my favorite resturaunt on the otherside the Italian Kitchen. There I am bringing up food again.
I agree with heypaul. I was a teenager in the 70's and got my first tastes of railfanning back then. On the positive side, there was a much larger variety of rolling stock -- BMT/IND running both R 1-9 AND R-44/46 equipment (when it the 44's were working); as well there was the R-40 (slant and modifieds), the 42s, the R-27/30 workhorses and even the R-11/34 experimental cars that were holding down the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
Negatively, however, the system in general was in a state of decline, with both horrendeous graffiti and deferred maintenance problems. Also, subway crimes were at out-of-control levels.
The best aspect of that era was certainly the diversity of equipment, much of them never to be seen in service again.
Doug aka BMTman
If you ask about the 50s, it seemed the speeds were faster, the operators friendlier to railfan lookers if you were a kid. I remember the little window on the door of the cab, I think it was the AB or Triplex or both, and you could watch the Motorman. Of course in the 50s the trains were noisier, and that made them seem faster too.
Another thing about the 50's, 60's,70's and even now, try to ride the system with wonder. I remember a project I started in the 60's. I noticed that the R1/9's were built by different companies. There was Pullman Standard, Pressed Steel, and American Car and Foundry. Fortunately, I did not have a list of cars and car builders. So whenever I rode the cars, I would go through the train and jot down car numbers and manufacturers. It was a mystery, and each trip brought some new information. I don't remember the results, but it was fun and interesting when I did it. Within recent years, I use to ride the Q when the R68's were on the line. On most of the cars, the Q was in a diamond shape on the side destination sign. There was a rare car with a bigger Q within a circle that seemed so much warmer and friendlier. I use to scan a train to see if they had one,and go into that car and kind of felt at peace. It was something special to me. Nuts? Probably sounds that way.
What's the point? Whatever intrigues you or speaks to your heart, follow it as long as it does you no harm. And don't let head knowledge turn off the wonder and beauty of your vision. Don't let the knowledge of why a sunset is many colored or why the moon seems much larger when it is close to the horizon stop you from enjoying a sunset or a rising full moon.
heypaul, your post is almost poetry.
I was really moved by it (moved to go over to the oven and stick my head in it).
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
heypaul's next work will be "Ode to a BMT Stadard". We wait with bated breath ...
Paul, it makes me feel good to be in Maui. This evening I will walk out my door, turn right, 100 feet, go to the corner, turn right walk 2 blocks. The distance between E 19 and E 17th St in the old neighborhood, except on the Highway) cross a 2 lane street, go to the park, cross the park, on to the beach, watch the sun set over the Pacific Ocean, over 3 Islands here in Maui. Did you know if you listen carefully on a tropic sun, when it sets on the ocean, you can hear the fizz as the sun hits the water. By the way, answer your e mail.
It may be hard to believe now, but on the R1/9s and I think on the R10s the conductor had to stand between the cars to open the doors. I often heard of passengers falling between cars, but never conductors. They must have had steadier nerves than most of us.
All the iRT Hi and Lo Volts, the BMT Triplex the conductor stood between cars. My uncle always came home dirty and coughing from work.
Also the R-12's however they were never in the middle of the train so the conductor was always in the cabs of newer cars. (except of course when they were the newest!) On the Standards the conductors stood in the middle of the car with the controls on the center door. I remember on the R1-12's the conductor closed the doors by hitting the top of the controls hard and it usually made a loud bopping sound.
I don't remember conductors standing between the cars when the cars were R10's in the early '80s. Were internal door controls added later?
Nope...the R-10s had exterior door controls for their entire lives.
David
R12,R14 too. R15 was the first order of cars to have indoor door controls
R12,R14 too. R15 was the first order of cars to have indoor door controls
It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. As for transit, I wouldn’t mind reliving those years. Some people on this BB complain about non-air conditioned subway cars. Except for some experimental equipment in the sixties, the first air conditioned cars were the Slant R-40’s. Lets recount a time when most rolling stock had wicker seats, exposed fans, exposed incandescent lightbulbs, spur-cut bull and pinion gears that made a grinding sound; a time when there were 3 clearly-defined divisions known as BMT, IRT and IND; a time when the “new” arch-roof R-Type cars were replacing the Hi and Lo-V’s, when the A/B’s and D-Types ruled the BMT and the R-1/9’s ruled the IND, a time when the wooden Q-Types ran on the Myrtle Ave. El and the Steinways and 1938 WF cars ran on the 3rd Ave. El, a time when the fare was 15¢, a time when the brand new olive drab R-27’s first appeared on the BMT Southern Division. The year was 1960. It was the year that I turned 6, JFK was elected to the White House and the cold war was in full swing. In a couple of years, the Ponitails would come out with a song “Born Too Late”. We all somehow feel that we were born too late. Today’s 20 year old feels he was born too late; having missed the Myrtle and 3rd Ave. Els, the R-1/9’s, the Triplexes and Standards, etc., etc., etc.! When I was 20, I felt that I was born too late, having missed the Manhattan els, the Fulton St. El, the gate cars, the MUDC’s, the C-Types, etc., etc., etc.! Time is all relative. Those who were born in 1920, who got the chance to ride all that I was born too late for, probably felt that they were born too late – too late for steam on the els, too late for horse cars, too late for thru service on Fulton-Brighton, too late for back alley rides on BU’s on grade-level Southern Division lines going between Park Row and Coney Island. I am thankful for my cherished memories during the sixties and seventies. But, here’s my message to those in their teens and twenties:
Your children, if they become railfans will say that they were born too late – too late to ride a Slant R-40, too late for railfan windows, too late for the Redbirds. All you young railfans out there, just enjoy railfanning in your time period and don’t fret over what you missed. Everyone “missed” something. You young railfans may get to see something that us middle-aged people in our forties may not live to see – a 2nd Ave. Subway.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If you want to be anonymous, don't put in your sig!
Welcome back.
If you want to be anonymous, don't put in your sig!
Welcome back.
Thanks for the "Welcome Back". I didn't want anyone to read my post just because it was from me. I wanted everyone to read what I had to say even though they didn't know who it was from until they pulled it up, if that makes any sense.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Great Post, but born too late came out in 58, when I moved from Bklyn to LA
Great Post, but born too late came out in 58, when I moved from Bklyn to LA
'58? I could have sworn it was '62.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Where you been?
Where you been?
Hi. I was on the MTA for the past few weeks. I brought Charlie back with me. He's been on the MTA since 1958. He finally returned! So did I.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
He finally found the nickle to get off, or is it a dime?
WELCOME BACK! Did Charlie share any of his wife's sandwiches with you?
Wayne
Well (this could get to be a long post)...
My subway heritage goes back to early childhood riding Lo-V's etc. with my Mom and Dad from Newkirk Avenue to Borough Hall IRT. But my primary experiences date from my first real railfan trip - July 27, 1963. From that year through 1968 we had an annual "subway day" - railfan trips all over the city. After August 3, 1968, the trips became much more numerous until I got my wings on February 3, 1971 (the "wings" meaning official permission to ride solo from Elmont to wherever). During 1973 and 1974 I commuted via N6 bus and "F" train to Manhattan (Lex-53rd).
As for riding in the 60s and 70s - there were tons of wheezing, creaking R-types (R-1, R-4, R-6, R-7 and R-9), especially on lines like the "E", "F" (yes, they were there), "EE", "GG", "CC", and later discovered to have completely infested the entire Eastern Division (except for R27s/R30s on the "QJ"). The last of the BMT Standards were sputtering out (we saw the last one, on the "M" on our August 4, 1969 marathon trip). Slant R40s were new and exciting, especially the air-conditioned ones. And R42s were starting to make their appearance, the first fully-air-conditioned fleet. Some of our late 1969 trips were spent seeking these cars out. Every line (except for the "HH") had at least one train of them. Air-conditioning was a novelty and a blessed relief (especially in the summer). In 1972, the first R44s appeared on the "F". I just missed one at 47th-50th one day and rode clear to Coney Island just to ride it back. One of the cars I rode that day was #140, later to be renumbered #5282, and later still to suffer a horrible fate at 135th Street. By early 1973, they were in full evidence on the "F" line, and the R-1 and R-4 cars were for the most part gone. R-16s replaced R-6s and R-7s on the "EE" and "GG". R-6s and R-7s moved over to the "CC". The one thing that I miss most about the 60s and the 70s was the faster express runs. Today, with all the GTs and modifications, you're lucky if you get above 45MPH even under a full green (although I DID get lucky on December 11th aboard an R38). Flourescent light in the IND was a rarity - you only saw it in midtown (some mezzanines still cling to the ancient bulbs, especially in Queens). On the IRT, yes, there were Redbirds, but without rust. There were Redbird predecessors like the R17, R21 and R22, and also cars like the R12, R14 and R15 about. Whole trains ran mixed consists. In fact, the entire IRT, with the exception of the Flushing #7 and some solid R17 trains on the #6, was one big mixed bag. The #8 line gave up the last of its Steinway WF Lo-Vs in 1969 and acquired R12s. It gave up for good a few years later. The oldest cars running were the Q-types on the "MJ" (Myrtle Avenue El, which ran until 1969) and some of the last BMT Standards, a couple of which ran on the Culver Shuttle and the "LL" and "M". R32s ruled the "D" train, as well as the "AA" and "B" trains. R10s were still just about the only thing you'd see on the "A", except for the occasional R42 and the even rarer R-4/R-6/R-7 mix (which was what they usually ran on the Aqueduct Express).
By the mid-1970s, the R46 began appearing and the last R-6/R-7/R-9 cars were withdrawn by 1977. Slant R40s moved over to the "A". Deferred maintenance set in. Graffitti was everywhere. The decline had begun. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that things began to improve.
Wayne
Did you ever ride the predecessor of the N-6, the Bee Line with their red fishbowls and old style GMC's? (No Macks, Paul) Their Hempstead Terminal in those days was on a street that doesn't exist now, Little Main Street then they went through a very bumpy dirt lot to Franklyn Av to Hempstead Tnpk. That bumpy lot was a great ride on the rear seat of the old GMC!!
Now the N-6 goes from the Hempstead Terminal. By the way, I remember a Newsday article where the Bee Line had all their buses adjusted to omit a rose bud scented exhast from their pipes!!
P.U.!!
I remember well that fuel additive that Bee Line put in their buses. It didn't smell anything like roses. It was hard to describe.
Steve,
Yonkers Transit used a strange additive too. It had a soap suds like smell to it. Clean smelling. Never came across that again. It was the only operator in the county to use it.
Joe
YES I did. I lived on Meacham Avenue, which was served by the Bee Line N-2, and its Fishbowl, #564. Before that, it was a GMC Old Style, #415. In my commuting days, the N-2 would run express from Stop 20 to Queens, making drop-off stops between City Line and Jamaica. I got off at 179th Street. MSBA took over around 1974 or so. One of the old-style GMC's (#619) was even painted in MSBA Blue/orange livery. It looked hideous. I don't remember the rose scent but I do remember the little bee logo they sported over their doors.
Wayne
Wayne, here's a Bee Line Bus. As you can see its marked "Hempstead", so its on the predecessor route of the N-6.
That was one interesting posting. It makes me regret the fact that I hardly ever rode the subway until the early 1990s.
Then you missed grafitti, R10's, R16's, weekly derailments, hot dog stands in every station ...
As far as I can recall, I only rode one graffitied train, on a day trip from Connecticut sometime in the spring of 1986. That had been my first trip on a subway since the pre-graffiti days in the early 1970's. I think the 1986 ride was on a downtown N or R from Times Square. But one thing that clearly sticks in my mind was how awful the train looked - you felt dirty just from riding on it. I rode on several other trains during that trip, none of which had graffiti. What a difference.
I remember taking the Cross Bronx to High School in the early 80's and watching the grafity covered IRT going over the highway. Some of the trains looked like they have murals that covered 3 cars...
That's quite a contrast compared to the first time I saw an IRT train from the Cross Bronx Expressway on June 4, 1967. Then, it was a clean train of racy red R-29s or R-33s. The first thing I noticed was that there only three sets of doors per car side instead of four, which I had gotten used to seeing on the IND and BMT. I would learn later why this is so. Plus I hadn't seen the BMT standards yet; that would come a month and a half later on July 20.
1986 was about the time that the grafitti problem finally started to get addressed. I was at this time you saw grafitti-free cars actually kept grafitti free with agressive cleaning.
My frist memories of are of early 70's E and F Rust brown cars with wicker seats.. then R44's and a few R 68's on the F when they were new
i remember the R44 on the D line when the D was 4 cars on the weekend and the M was 4 cars with graffiti on the weekdays. I also remember QB trains with the R42 running on them. What was funny was that most of them didnt have the right sign.
QB trains back then were mostly converted M trains. Many had incorrect signage.
As most of you know by now, my love affair with the NY subway began on July 21, 1965. An N train of shiny, spanking new R-32s took us from Brooklyn to 34th St. in Manhattan, where we ascended to the observation deck on the Empire State Building. IIRC, it was a lot cooler on the 86th floor than on street level.
Two years later, we moved to New Jersey and I became immersed in the subway. In 1967, the fare was 20 cents. I rode on the IND for the first time on April 30, and on the IRT on August 9. The R-10s, in their racy teal-and-white paint scheme, still ruled supreme on the A line, while the R-1/9s moaned, groaned, and grunted on the rest of the IND routes. The newest kid on the block, the R-38s, were serving the F line primarily, as well as the E. On the BMT, the R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s were serving the Southern Division while the R-16s and remaining BMT standards were plying the rails on the Eastern Division. T trains still ran during rush hours and daytime hours on Saturdays. On July 20 of that year, there were several firsts: first ride on the R-10s all the way out to East New York, followed by my first ride on the BMT standards on the Canarsie. My first impression? Yechhhh!! The cars were still clean back then, and even the R-10s weren't intolerably loud. You would even find backlit side destination signs on the R-1/9s, a feature which was disappearing rapidly. Sadly, those venerable cars were no longer being cared for by then. This was all before the Chrystie St. connection opened, which resulted in equipment being shifted around considerably. Two constants remained: the BMT standards remained on the Eastern Division while the R-10s stayed put on the A.
That fall, I became a regular Saturday commuter, making a weekly trip by bus from our Pompton Plains home to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, followed by a trip on an A (at my insistance) to 14th St. and on the Canarsie to Lorimer St. It was a ritual which would continue for three years. The R-10s remained a fixture on the A, while on the Canarsie, the BMT standards would give way to relocated R-7s and R-9s, and in 1969, an occasional train of R-42s. During that time, the slant R-40s began to appear on the E and F lines, with no marker lights or destination signs on the bulkheads. In place of all that was a huge, color-coded letter. In January of 1970, the subway fare rose to 30 cents, and a quarter-sized token was introduced.
My visits to the city were curtailed during the early and mid-70s to an occasional trip to Shea Stadium to see the Mets and an all-day excursion on December 27, 1973. I didn't set foot on the subway at all during 1974 and 1975. On July 28, 1976, after a 2 1/2-year absence, I took a brief subway ride once again, first on a B train of R-32s from Rockefeller Center to 59th St., then on an A train of 75-footers to 42nd St. It marked the first time I spotted the newcomers; not sure if they were R-44s or R-46s. I do recall thinking, it's good to be back. By 1977, I found myself in the city once a month or so. My sister enrolled at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and in early 1978 I would go down every few weeks to see her, exploring the IRT division in the process. By this time, the graffiti epidemic had struck, bringing a repulsive appearance to every car in the system. Two other fare increases occurred during the decade: from 30 to 35 cents in 1971, and then 50 cents in 1975. The same token was retained until the fare rose once again to 60 cents in 1980. By then, the R-46s were plagued with cracked trucks, and as a consequence, the B division fleet was being shuffled around in much the same manner as a Chinese fire drill. I left for Colorado in September of 1980, and thus missed the darkest hours of the subway system. It wasn't until October of 1984 that I would return to the city and ride on the subway again.
From 1968 to 1970, if we had time before our bus was scheduled to leave Port Authority, I would take an express joyride up CPW on an A train. There was no better stretch anywhere else. On one occasion, a D train of R-4s pulled into 34th St. - the last prewar D train I ever saw - and I stayed on it until we got to 125th St. What a treat: no headlights, bull and pinion gears wailing away as we whipped past those seven local stops. I wished there had been enough time to take that train all the way to 205th St.; it was with great reluctance that I got off at 125th St.
Gosh, you're all making ME feel old, reading these posts.
I was born and raised in NYC. MY memories go back to when the IND was all R-1/9 cars, except for the "A" train which had the R-10's. Those were my favorites, though we lived a couple blocks off the Grand Concourse and Fordham Road and had to use the "D" train all the time. I never knew car 1575 existed until my high school days, and was quite surprised by a flourescently lit car in the middle of R-1/9 types. And it even SOUNDED like one of them!
The IRT was basically my stomping grounds. We moved to Flatbush, and my dad was a lieutenant with FDNY, so we went to a lot of different fire stations. I remember mostly the Lo-V types, but one time we were on the 42nd Street Shuttle, and somehow I remember something different -- could it have been "Composites"?? I'm talking like around 1955-1956.... I vividly remember one day when we took the IRT from Newkirk Avenue to the Brooklyn Library, and in rolled a shiny, brand new train of R-21's. Every other train was Lo-V's; we were quite lucky to get the same exact R-21 train on the way home. In my younger days on the IRT, I remember the only mixes you'd see were R21's and R22's in the same train; seemed like they kept the R17's separate then. I also remember seeing R17's on the Flushing line when they were still maroon and shiny as our family would drive from Flatbush to Adventurer's amusement park in Flushing.. Yet, I never remembered seeing the R12/14/15 cars there -- until the first time I actually RODE the #7 in 1963. I thought it was like visiting a foreign land, as the cars were "strange looking" with the porthole door windows, and strange shades of dirt compared to the rest of the system, and those "funny loop thingies" on the cab ends. On weekends, friends from school and I would ride all over the IRT just to see where it went. Funny we didn't do much riding on the IND or BMT though, I can't figure why as we were all train buffs.
The BMT as I remember -- never rode it much, but had relatives on East 17th & Beverley Road. We would always go to the Albemarle Road footbridge by the tennis courts over the BMT cut, and watch the trains. I remember plenty of Standards, and the articulated trains with the "1" on the front and always wondered "why" there was a "1" there when the IRT already had a "1". The relatives then moved to Ridgewood, next to the Myrtle elevated, and one day I ventured onto the el, rode the "Q" types (man, were they SLOW!!!) and then went to Broadway and the Jamaica Line. I discovered the "15" train then, and was REALLY baffled about those route numbers. Couldn't find any reference to them anywhere, I was only about 12 years old -- this was 1963. (It only took about twenty more years to learn the complete BMT number system....)
In my high school years (1964-1968) things started really changing. The #7 line got the new WF cars, so all those "odd looking" cars from there came to the rest of the world, the mainline IRT. That's when everything started getting really mixed up. The Budd R32's arrived on the BMT. Then in 1967, the BMT and IND "merged" and all o a sudden, up in the Bronx on the "D" train, there's R32's!! Then the R38's got delivered....the last "new" cars I would see actually brand new, as we moved to California in 1968.
I went back in 1979, saw LOTS of grafitti. In 1980, sw WHITE subway cars. And in 1985, lots of stainless ateel cars made in Japan, and the grafitti seemed to be abating.
Those "funny loop thingies" you saw on the R-15 cab ends were radio antennas.
The BMT number code was never consistently applied to rolling stock, since the majority of their fleet - BMT standards - didn't have end signs. Unless you happened to be riding on a train of Triplexes, oddball units, multisectionals, or R-16s (or if you got lucky, an occasional train of R-1s on loan or R-10s), you wouldn't see anything except route and destination signs on the car sides.
I also remember very well when the R-32s first appeared on the D. They would glide into 34th St as opposed to the R-1/9s, which lumbered, snarled, and hissed. They streaked effortlessly along that CPW express dash, whereas the R-10s thundered and the oldtimers howled - or should I say hauled? - ass.
As for the 42nd St. shuttle, chances are what you saw were the World's Fair Lo-Vs, built in 1938. They were the last IRT-designed cars.
Yeah, I fianlly found out, years after I moved to California, what the loops on the #7 line were all about!! Identra, wasn't that the system name?
The cars I remembered on the 42nd Street Shuttle were definitely NOT the 1938 WF Steinways -- the cars I'm thinking of had end vestibules like the Lo-V's, but somehow were different. I have all the books on NYC subway equipment, and I still can't figure what they were. But they were "different" than the Lo-V's that we rode into Manhattan from Flatbus on.
It depends on when you left(the year) I remember when I left in 58 they were low volts, After that they changed.
It was the mid sixties when I first started riding the subway with my folks. Back then, the three divisions had much more distinctive identities in their rolling stock, stations, signs and even entrances.
Prior to 1968 and the emergence of the R-40s, I pretty much knew:
-An IND train would either be black and groaning, or blue-and-white and extremely noisy. Either way, they would have those pronounced eaves on the roofs. When we rode the IND, it was mostly from Jackson Heights to Manhattan, so we would only see the then-very shiny R-32s along 6th Avenue on the 'D'. Most damning, an IND train never seemed to go outside.
-A BMT train would have the rounded roof, and the 'baloney-colored' seats found on the R-27s that we always changed for from the Flushing line at Queensboro Plaza. Very early on, I recall hearing BMT trains departing the Plaza making the same groaning sounds I associated with the 1-9s. Apparently, there still were Standards going to Astoria well into the sixties.
Trains could be found in a variety of colors: Light blue and white on the R10s and WFs; black on the R1-9s; black or red on the R-27s; and that strange gold on the 32s and 38s. Mainline IRT cars could be black, red or dark green. This variety would end in the seventies, falling victim to graffitti and the MTA's penchant for making everything silver and blue.
Station guide signs also varied by division. The IRT signs were usually white letters on a dark blue or black background, with plenty of wordy information on destinations and lines you could change to further down the line. Well into the eighties, there was a sign on the stairs ascending from street to mezzanine at 111th/Roosevelt that referred to the 2nd Avenue Line. BMT signs were usually white letters on a green background, with the BMT letters often bright red. Similarly descriptive information was found.
Most IND entrances had square globes with the old 'modern' MTA logo. IRT entrances looked very skeletal, with those vertical "SUBWAY" signs. BMT entrances were very ornate, with much detail above the stairwells. Somehow the heavy rivet work reminded me of battleships. Some of these survive along 4th Avenue in Bay Ridge.
Of course, the IRT and BMT stations had the elaborate mosiacs, which we're all delighted to see return either in their original forms, or by careful reproduction.
In the seventies, I was able to ride the trains myself. By then, the new, complex route coloring system was in effect, and many of the distinctive IRT and BMT island platform signs were replaced with the now familiar black letters on white background. I had a ball checking out all the different types of rolling stock to be found on individual lines (up to six on the 'E' and 'F'), but it always seemed that the hotter it was, the fewer trains with air conditioning there would be.
I only was able to ride the Myrtle El once, on a farewell fan trip in October 1969. Maybe some of you were on it? I did the remaining Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El in one direction only around 1970, and didn't even know it was closing down until it was too late. The Culver shuttle also went out with a whimper.
Yes, there was no air-conditioning, so windows were left open in warm window, making conversation impossible. I don't remember there being any station or connection announcements on any line other than the Flushing.
I remember being terrifed to read how various politicians wanted to replace all els with underground subways. Happily, in the year 2000 we still have many miles of active els in all four boroughs- even Manhattan! (Despite popular misconception, the outside stretch of IRT from Dyckman to 225th is NOT the Bronx!!)
The best part of our subway childhoods? The railfan window, no doubt! Large chunks of the system can no longer be viewed from this window. Sad, but true.
In the 60's the GG was a great dirty, old IND ride with R1(?)(I'm not that up on the numbers), those great steel riveted original IND's. The train had the wicker seats, the great overhead fans, compressor noise and a special IND electric smell that you only get in old cars. I used to ride from 74th down to Lorimer (?) and then catch the old BMT standards to 1st avenue. They were old and smelly with overhead fans too, but made BMT noises with a BMT smell. At some point they were jazzed up on the inside with some weird speckled green paint. The only way to get a sense of it now is, of course, at the Transit Museum. I assume you've been, if not, go.
Ron
Back then the "GG" was running a mixture of R-4, R-6 and R-7 cars. These essentially looked the same, except for minor differences (i.e.the Pullman R-6 had different [GE] fans and slightly longer stems with a more flared socket on the lites by the storm doors).
R16s and a few R40Ms came on in 1970. The next major shifts were to R32s then R10s then back to R32s then to the current six-car R46 fleet.
Wayne
The R-4s had a single large storm door window, as did the R-1s. R-6s and up had a split storm door window. And not all of the R-4s received headlights.
No headlights? isn't that a bit......dangerous?
Not for the R-4s that spent most of their lives underground on the IND. There were only two aboveground stations for the first 22 years the trains operated, and then only the A and D trains needed headlights for the next 14 years after that for the Culver and Rockaway runs. Trains on all the other lines could rely on tunnel lighting.
02/09/2000
Weren't the R1-9's delivered without windshield wipers from the builder? That's wahat I was told.
Bill Newkirk
That is correct. It wasn't until the connection to the Culver line opened in 1954 that windshield wipers were needed.
The lack of headlights didn't make operation dangerous per se. I got a big kick out of it because the tunnel lights alone made the I-beams between the local and express tracks look like silhouettes. Plus you couldn't see the track very easily.
Oh and Chris, did you know the R-16s didn't have headlights originally, either?
That's news to me...
[re no windshield wipers on the R1/9's]
But wouldn't the lack of wipers been a problem in the yards? And what about the 1939 World's Fair line?
What about when trains going from Carroll St to 4th Ave had to go through serious rainstorms? Or what if water leaked into tunnels? Wipers seem to be needed even if there were almost nooutside parts in revenue service on the IND
One can only guess it was felt that wipers weren't originally necessary. If not that, then it should go down as one of the better unanswered questions in NY subway lore.
Yes, I believe so. The men would use tobacco juice or rub a cigar on the glass to get the rainwater to sheet off.
They also had no stirrups (anticlimber steps) or grab irons on the pantograph gates when they were new. Getting inside must have been a challenge!
Actually, they just didn't have "sealed beam" headlights, which is what the cars have today -- and are a LOT brighter.
The older subway cars, up until the R21, were delivered with white lamps up front -- but that's about all they were, were lamps. They didn't light the tunnel up much. When trains were reversed, the red bulb inside the lamp lit up.
Once the R22's were delivered, all the post-war cars were fitted with sealed-beam units; many of the R-4/6/7/9 types also received them. And many of the BMT "Standards" did too -- they were sspended under the floor at the corners of the ends.
I left the city in 1966 with clean green cars-no air conditioning and the new kids on the block were the World's Fair Cars on the 7.
I returned for a vacation in 1978-- what a shock! grafitti all over--outside and inside. Smokers in the trains and no cops. They even ran short trains on the IRT mid-days. They ran mixed trains with multiple shades of red and some a/c cars on the IRT which was still green (under the grafitti). The new kids were the R44/46-cool a/c.
Another vaaction in 1983-- all redbirds, grafitti all gone, short trains gone, no green trains. No new kids this time.
Grafitti gone in 1983? I don't think so. With the R15, R17, R21 and R22 still providing the bulk of the service, grafitti must've been everywhere. 1983 was the year the first "redbird" or overhauled R-types starting showing up on the IRT. They were a clear minority in 1983.
IIRC, the R22 was still running on the #2 as late as 12/84, given the train Bernhard Geotz did his community good by blowing 4 punks away was this type.
I saw plenty of white graffitied cars during my first visit in 1984 since leaving for Colorado four years before, plus some nice, clean R-36 Redbirds on the 7.
I can't believe I read all 78(?) answers to your post. This site is addicting or I need therapy.
Another good thing in the 60's was pulling into 57th street on a BMT standard (4th Ave. local) and switching for one of the expresses. The Sea Beach, Brighton and West End all left from 57th. The cars had the route names on the roll signs, and they sounded kind of exotic to a kid (Sea Beach especially-sounded like a great resort). The expresses were all either standards or triplexes. I was confused by the archaic numbers on the triplexes because they were never listed or explained anywhere. I think Brighton was 1 and Sea Beach 4. West End? no idea. It was a great time in that it was still linked to the old industrial era of the 30's and 40's. Everything was heavy steel, dirty and spit sparks out as it entered the stations.
This site is addicting or I need therapy.
Yes to the first one, probably yes to the second as well. Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was thinking maybe Dr. Hackenbush.
Ron
FOR DUTY AND HUMANITY!
BANG! BANG! Ohhhhhhhh.....they got me!......
wayne :o>
The West End was designated as #3 in the BMT's old number system. That's where the Triplexes ended their careers - prematurely, IMHO.
Hello Christopher:
Well it seems as if you've got no shortage of responses. Good.
I was 14 in 1980, about the time I started journeying about on my own to a large extent. My earliest memories are of the Q's (one ride as a small kid) and plenty of R9s, and the old B&O SIRT, but I think I missed the ABs. I recall the East 105th Street grade crossing, but like you, missed the Third Ave El (I'm from Queens). So I recall brand new R-44s clearly, also some upholstered seats on the IRT and plenty of green and red trains of all sorts.
Well cleanliness and comfort were not as good in the 1970s as today. Air conditioning was rare, except on R-44/46 types where it seemed fairly reliable. The axiflow fans and openable windows were OK, but inadequate. Yes the sensory experience was there - the ozone smell, the noise, etc. - but for the commuter, the experience was like roulette - you never knew what to expect. Graffiti covered everything, including maps and windows, and cars were washed less frequently. There was a real sense of disorder and fear; crime was worse then, too.
Maintenance was terrible; slow orders were everywhere and breakdowns were constant. A good portion of the fleet was out of service (R-44, R-46, R-16) due to maintenance issues (and cracked trucks on the 46's). So there was a terrible car shortage, dropped trips, etc.
So yes there was nostalgia - incandescant stations, maybe faster top speeds and so forth - and the TA was a little friendlier to fans (plenty of fantrips and open houses around the Diamond Jubilee in 1979) but the quality of service was worse and there seemed little hope that it would get better.
Metro-North (then Conrail and Penn Central) was my favorite. No two coaches or locomotives seemed alike, they even ran an S-motor in GCT until 1980 or so. They've done a remarkable job turning that service around in the past 20 years. But I miss the RDC's with the end doors open in the summer!
FYI, when I could, I spent time in Philadelphia in my teen years. I rode all sorts of stuff there - PCCs on long-gone routes like the 50, Red Arrow 80 cars, the old Broad Street cars, the P&W Bullets and Straffords, Reading Terminal - Philly was a true railfan's paradise then, a rolling museum. I miss the GG1s too......
Cherish your memories now, because they will become the nostalgia for the next generation! Take pictures too, but don't get carried away with them. Too expensive.
CONRAD MISEK
Speaking of an "ozone smell" brought back some memories. Back when I was little the subway had a distinct odor which I cannot detect today. It was strongest the closer you got to the tracks. It's like nothing I've ever smelled before or since. I had assumed it was just the regular odor which my brain became accustomed to when I started riding the subway every day back in the mid-80's. I wonder what it was...
Ever see all the people peeing off the platforms onto all that oil and grease on the tracks?
why do NEW YORK SUBWAY CARS """ skreech"" as they come to a stop !!!
i thought only the r 30 and older cars did that !!! and why only in new york city ???
02/05/2000
I don't know the real reason why, maybe the other posters may chime in. I do know that the subway cars today don't SCREEECH, but rather SQUEEL! I guess due to complaints, composite brake shoes were installed with a J-14 (?) relay. You know, you would see it stenciled on the air tank underneath the R-30's warning of using composite shoes because of J-14 relay.
Bill Newkirk
That is because you have never ridden a PATCO Budd car. They SKREEEEEEEEEEECH while going around curves. (1969) It is not only New York
Cut them a little slack. Those are 90o curves, steel rails, steel wheels and a solid steel axle. Unless it's are fitted with radial trucks anything attempting those curves will squeal.
The sound of the L trains going around the curve at Lake and Wabash is music to my ears. Luckily for me, there's an excellent sandwich shop with outdoor seating right there. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[The sound of the L trains going around the curve at Lake and Wabash is music to my ears. Luckily for me, there's an excellent sandwich shop with outdoor seating right there.]
But David, the Chicago 'L' trains really don't make a skreeching noise when rounding the tight curves on the system. The CTA has devices that coat the wheels with a small deposit of grease each time a train passes. The build up on the rails makes each passing of trucks much quieter than those in many other cities I've visited.
As for brake skreech in Chicago, there is none. All-electric operation here, with no brake shoes to make a skreeching noise. The only noise you will hear on a train making a stop is the one when an operator uses the track brake. Then you feel the effect more than you hear it.
BTW, I know the place you speak of. Margeno's (? sp) is a great place to people and train watch during lunch.
-Jim K.
Chicago
But David, the Chicago 'L' trains really don't make a skreeching noise when rounding the tight curves on the system.
They don't? It must have been my imagination then. Not every train does it, but there are quite a few that do. And when they do, it can be heard from blocks away.
The only noise you will hear on a train making a stop is the one when an operator uses the track brake. Then you feel the effect more than you hear it.?
Yeah, that sounds more like a loud "GRRROOOONK!"
BTW, I know the place you speak of. Margeno's (? sp) is a great place to people and train watch during lunch.
Mangino's, the best sandwiches on God's green earth. As far as I know they have a couple of locations throughout the Loop, but the Lake / Wabash store is the one I usually frequent.
The review I gave Mangino's on my website:
Mangino's Italian Subs
27 East Lake
(312) 630-0005Don't you even think of walking into a Subway or Jimmy John's franchise if you're anywhere near one of several Mangino's locations in the Loop. If mediocre corporate franchises are your thing, do us all a favor and move to Naperville. Otherwise, seek out Mangino's and ye shall be greatly rewarded: Friendly staff who know exactly how to make a kick-ass sub, free refills on the drinks, and decent outdoor seating when weather permits. Undoubtedly the best subs I've ever had, with bread that tastes like real bread and generous portions of fresh ingredients inside. I've been stopping here for lunch almost every Friday for over four years now, with the unfortunate exception of an eight-month period when I wasn't working downtown. During this time it was not uncommon for me to weep around noon on Fridays as I forced myself to trudge off to a nearby Subway for lunch. Gawd, I'm gonna miss this place when I move to Boston.
-- David
Chciago, IL
doesn't that mean thet if the power goes out, you have no brakes?
Batteries in the car provide power to the electric brakes in the case of a loss of main power.
Actually, no. Batteries supply power to the "P" wire, which permits multiple-unit control of the cars. The brakes are pneumatically applied tread brakes (air brakes) of the conventional kind. The braking impulse is propagated electrically from car to car, but the brakes are applied by air pressure from each car's reservoir. If a car "dies" electrically, or if power to the whole train is lost, the brakes can still be applied by a pneumatic impulse, since there is a pressurized "air line" from car to car through the train, as a backup and in case an undesired uncoupling occurs in service. This "straight air" works exactly the way freight train air brakes work.
I think the screeching results from the abandonment of asbestos as a brake lining some years ago. Car and truck brakes, and freight train brakes, all seem noisier to me than they did years ago. As to why Chicago El cars don't screech, they use a truck design similar to the PCC, which does not incorporate any wheel tread braking, as noted by a previous poster to this thread.
Are we still talking about CTA cars? There's no air.
They have dynamic brakes, magnetic attraction track brakes,
and spring-applied, battery-released drum brakes (not tread brakes).
The 600V isn't used for braking at all, and the system fails safe
in that if the battery goes dead or becomes disconnected, the
brakes apply.
Subway car brakes in NYC get screechy when the dynamics have
previously failed in the car. The friction brakes then have to
do all the work and they get hot and glazed.
Bill wasn't talking about going around curves. As the subject line implies, it was BRAKING.
That is because you have never ridden a PATCO Budd car. They SKREEEEEEEEEEECH while going around curves. (Made in 1969) It is not only New York
That is because you have never ridden a PATCO Budd car. (circa 1969) They SKREEEEEEEEEEECH while going around curves. It is not only New York
They didn't squeal half as bad as those Green Machines with the J-16D relays and inshot valves. But they still had the flats (WH).
It seems to me that besides New York, you've never ridden any of the older subway systems.
I assume that the squealing comes from when the brake shoes are worn out and need replacement.
No, it wasn't only the R30's and older.
I think the WORST ones were the Budd R32/R32A cars. They were REALLY bad when they were brand new.
It's the same thing with buses -- the ones at Long Beach Transit in California have the squeakiest brakes I've ever heard. You sit in the downtown library in Long Beach, which is pretty quiet, and all you hear is bus brakes on their RTS's outside.
Does NYC still use wheel tread brakes? Will the 142 and 143's have disk brakes? Will they be air or hydralic?
This is kind of a late post, but another source told me yesterday that the R-142's will probably be testing on the Dyre Avenue Line from Noon to about 4pm. If they are not there, the units will be in the shop or on the road.
02/05/2000
Source,
R-142's to be tested 12noon to 4PM on Dyre?? Any particular weekday, or weekend ?
Bill Newkirk
I'll continue to find out about any tests of the R-142 (A)'s. When I do find out anything I will post it. My colleages tell me they have been testing the cars every day on the road and test track, so for now, be prepared to see them any time on the IRT.
was there ever a R 70 plan to be built ??
also r 50 r80
R contracts aren't just for passenger cars, everything the TA buys (at least train related) gets an R contract number.
R-Contract List
R70 was 20 ballast cars.
R80 was 18 hopper cars.
How come the TA never decided to organize the R numbers so that the IRT division got odd/even numbers, and the B division got the opposite?
Because there are so many units that are for both systems evenly. All purchased work equipment, locomotives, cranes, flat cars, motors, riders all of them are for IRT dimensions. Even in the past, the TA converted mostly Low-V cars to work motors and riders, not the triplexes, standards or R-1/9s. Then they converted the R-12s to 22s to replace them, not the R-10-30 (mostly).
what is a ballast car ? ?? i think i know what a hopper car is its used by freight railroads right ??
A ballast car is an open hopper with special doors in the bottom to more evenly dump out the ballast across the roadbed.
-Hank
CTA may be in for more U.S. funds
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am very happy with this news and commend the CTA for the excellent job they did to fight for the money.
I didn't think they would be able to get the Douglas Blue Line project done when they first came up with the proposal. Atleast a year ago or longer. But after fighting for Illinois First it is nice to see that Mayor Daley actually cares just a little bit about transit to make the trip to D.C. to get the final funding.
The only questions I have are, when will the funding get it's final approval, in the new Country budget, when will that be??
The other question I have is, how long will the Douglas-Renovation project take. I have heard reports on different T.V. stations saying 2 years to 5 or 6 years. This article that is linked to says CTA Pres. Kruesi is quoted as saying just under 2 years. They all say though the work would begin in early 2001. I hope he was quoted correctly, because 6 years seems to long for only around 4 miles of Elevated structure. The last approx. 2 miles in Cicero are at Grade-level which can easily have the track replaced and speed limit bumped to 35 in a couple months.
BJ
I am very happy with this news and commend the CTA for the excellent job they did to fight for the money.
Don't thank the CTA. Thank the fact that veep Al Gore is in the middle of a heated presidential campaign, and he knew that announcing the funding via a speakerphone in front of the TV cameras at a City Hall press conference would be worth at least a few more Chicago votes. But I'm not cynical or anything. :-)
But regardless of the political motivations, I agree that the funding is certainly good news. (I'll be voting for McCain anyway.) If they're planning to have it done in under 2 years, then I would assume they will shut the Douglas Branch down entirely during the course of the reconstruction, as they did with the Green Line a couple years ago. Keeping the line open during reconstruction would probably double the time it takes to do the job.
On the Brown Line, most of the work will involve lengthening the platforms and replacing the station houses while the trains continue to operate, as I believe the elevated structure itself is in reasonably good structural condition.
With the station house replacements, in most cases a completely new station house will be built across the street from the still-functioning existing station house, along with new stairs and elevators. When the new station house is complete, the existing station houses will be demolished and passengers will then enter the station from across the street. I know this at least will be the case at Southport, Paulina, Addison, Irving Park and Montrose, because I worked on the design drawings myself during a brief temp assignment at the architectural firm in charge of the project.
(But don't look for any exciting new designs, even though this is the same architecture firm that designed the incredible International Terminal at O'Hare. The CTA sent us the plans for the Indiana Avenue stop on the Green Line and basically said, "Make them all look like this.")
The exception to this will be at Damen Avenue, because the existing station house apparently has some historical signifigance. In this case, a new station house will be constructed behind the existing one, and the interior of existing one will be gutted and become the lobby of the new station house.
But you didn't hear this from me. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I COMPLETLY DISAGREE WITH THIS!!!!
Do you think the Ravenswood stations really need to be replaced? Give me your honest opinion, David. I went to EVERY SINGLE STATION along that branch, and every station was quaint and charming, and still in perfectly good and usable condition. They are some of the nicest stations on the system. This is one of the biggest wastes of money the CTA has ever come up with. All the Ravenswood stations need is a good cleaning!!!! I don't give a damn about elevator access; I want the old stations saved. If they can add an elevator and extend the platforms of the old stations, that's great. But the line will lose so much of it's character if the charming station houses are torn down.
The new stations that the CTA builds are so goddamn ugly. Please, can we stop this? I've had it with current CTA management. Stupid decisions such as these, and not extending the 63rd St. "L" past Cottage Grove are some of the most insane things that have ever happened in this city.
Indiana is a complete waste of money, as is Garfield. There is barely any ridership at either of those stations; why should they be rebuilt?
Douglas is going to be kept open during the rehab, at least from what I've heard. The buisness owners near the stations were making a stink about the whole branch being closed in the first place; I doubt they'd let the CTA close it for even 2 years.
This has me really upset. The Chicago "L" is a great transit system run by complete idiots. I have to wonder if any of the executives have actually toured the Ravenswood stations and seen in what good condition they are in.
Do you think the Ravenswood stations really need to be replaced? Give me your honest opinion, David.
My honest opinion? I think the entire CTA infrastructure, save for a few execptions, should be leveled to the ground and replaced with a system that actually fulfills the needs of the 21st Century. As it is right now, the CTA is still being dragged, kicking and screaming every step of the way, out of the 19th Century.
I went to EVERY SINGLE STATION along that branch, and every station was quaint and charming, and still in perfectly good and usable condition. They are some of the nicest stations on the system. This is one of the biggest wastes of money the CTA has ever come up with. All the Ravenswood stations need is a good cleaning!!!! I don't give a damn about elevator access; I want the old stations saved. If they can add an elevator and extend the platforms of the old stations, that's great. But the line will lose so much of it's character if the charming station houses are torn down.
Sentimental bleatings about their "character" notwithstanding, the old stations are a filthy and decrepit mess that no longer adequately fulfill their intended functions. As soon as you get your spinal cord severed in a car accident and wake up in a hospital bed with the realization that you will be spending the rest of your life using a wheelchair, come back and tell me to my face that you don't give a damn about elevator access. I might add that adding elevators, aside from being the right thing to do, is also now federal law thanks to ADA.
This city, along with its transit system, is not some museum artifact to be preserved in amber at all costs. This is Chicago, not Pompeii. Show me a city that never changes, and I'll show you a ghost town. Healthy cities are always changing, and life goes on. Eat it, swallow it, deal with it.
The CTA Blue and Brown Lines are both vital parts of the city's infrastructure that are in serious need of some massive capital improvements. Their intended function is not to add "character" to a neighborhood, but to transport people.
The new stations that the CTA builds are so goddamn ugly. Please, can we stop this? I've had it with current CTA management. Stupid decisions such as these, and not extending the 63rd St. "L" past Cottage Grove are some of the most insane things that have ever happened in this city.
I happen to agree about the new stations being ugly as hell. The CTA has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to showcase the city's incredible architectural talent, but instead they choose to squander it on new stations that look like detention facilities. But at least they're functional. The right thing to do would be to have each station designed by a seperate architecture firm that has the empowerment to build something that is unique, functional and aesthetically pleasing.
Indiana is a complete waste of money, as is Garfield. There is barely any ridership at either of those stations; why should they be rebuilt?
Umm, because they are two stops on an entire line that was being completely rebuilt because it was literally crumbling to the ground?
This has me really upset. The Chicago "L" is a great transit system run by complete idiots. I have to wonder if any of the executives have actually toured the Ravenswood stations and seen in what good condition they are in.
No, I suspect they usually drive or take taxis to work. That's why the entire system has been allowed to deteriorate into the cesspool of filth and squalor that it is now. But at least now they're doing something about it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Are you SERIOUS? I've personally been inside every single Ravenswood branch station, and they are not in any state of horrible disrepair as you seem to think. With a little cleaning, they would be as good as new. I simply cannot believe what you are saying; the "L" used to be a beuitiful system with lots of amenities; now ugly, utiliterian stations are built without even simple amenities like DOORS! Don't you give a damn about history? If the CTA can find a way to put an elevator into an old, beuitiful station without replacing the whole goddamn building that's one thing, but I certainly don't agree with their policy of ripping out an entire station just to add a simple elevator.
I'm still in utter disbelief about what you said. I've talked to other people and they agree with me that the stations are functional, beuitiful, and by no means need to be replaced. All stations on the Ravenswood are in perfectly good condition.
You're missing the point; I never agreed with the Green Line rehab in the first place, and I still don't see the point of replacing Garfield and Indiana even now. Do you realize how little ridership the south side "L" has? And don't forget that Garfield is the only station dating back to the original "L" line in Chicago from 1892. It should be rehabbed and preserved. I was just there today, and it's actually not in bad condition, just needs a little TLC (and an authentic paint job).
You been to http://www.chicago-l.org/ ? Graham and I both have the same opinions about preserving stations.
I never that rapid transit stations have to add character to a neghiborhood. I'm just staying that the old stations serve their purpose very well, and are beuitiful, and they should not be replaced.
Do you know how SHODDY new stations are built today? The Dan Ryan stations are already falling apart after 30 years of operation. The Ravenswood stations could easily last another 100 years with some TLC. Those stations were BUILT TO LAST unlike things nowadays!
I'm thinking about starting a petition. I think most people will agree with me when they think about how ugly the new stations will be, and how nice the current stations are.
Are you SERIOUS?
Yes.
I've personally been inside every single Ravenswood branch station, and they are not in any state of horrible disrepair as you seem to think. With a little cleaning, they would be as good as new.
They were "new" a century ago. This is 2000.
Don't you give a damn about history?
I care very deeply about historic preservation. I have been a proud member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation since 1995. However, we're not talking about the old Penn Station here. We're talking about a small handfull of cramped, rundown transit stations that were never architecturally or historically significant to begin with, and no longer meet today's requirements.
If the CTA can find a way to put an elevator into an old, beuitiful station without replacing the whole goddamn building that's one thing, but I certainly don't agree with their policy of ripping out an entire station just to add a simple elevator.
In the case of the Damen Avenue stop, the original station house will be preserved and restored, with the new station house and elevators constructed as an addition behind it. However, this is a unique situation, and none of the other stations merit this treatment.
There's nothing simple about adding an elevator. For one thing, all these stations have side platforms, which means they require two elevators each. Also, an elevator isn't something that can just be "slipped into" an existing building, especially a building as tiny and cramped as the existing station houses. A typical elevator installation reuires about 100 square feet of space for each shaft. An elevator pit must be dug to a depth of at least 5-6 feet under the shaft, and there needs to be considerable space set aside for a machine room. In the case of hydraulic elevators, a shaft must also be drilled into the ground for the piston. There also must be adequate structural support for the shaft itself. The existing station houses don't even have enough space for their current usage patterns, to say nothing about the addition of two elevators and their required spaces, in addition to the other required mechanical and service spaces planned for the new stations.
You been to http://www.chicago-l.org/ ? Graham and I both have the same opinions about preserving stations.
That's wonderful. So therefore I must also have the same opinions?
I never that rapid transit stations have to add character to a neghiborhood. I'm just staying that the old stations serve their purpose very well, and are beuitiful, and they should not be replaced.
I understand what you're saying, and I respectfully disagree. I've already made my rebuttal in my previous posting, so there is no need for me to rehash it again here.
Do you know how SHODDY new stations are built today? The Dan Ryan stations are already falling apart after 30 years of operation. The Ravenswood stations could easily last another 100 years with some TLC. Those stations were BUILT TO LAST unlike things nowadays!
So, therefore, the Dan Ryan line should not have been built? Shoddy construction isn't limited to new transit stations. In fact, most construction since World War II has been incredibly shoddy compared to what was built in the previous decades. That's an unfortunate fact of life right now, and I'll be the first to agree that it is a disgrace. (In fact, most new buildings built today are deliberately designed to have a life cycle of no more than 25 years, because of how the financing works. Mark my words: All those fancy subdivisions in DuPage County will be slums 30 years from now.) But the argument here should be for better-quality new design and construction, not for preserving anything built before WWII simply for the sake of nostalgia.
I'm thinking about starting a petition. I think most people will agree with me when they think about how ugly the new stations will be, and how nice the current stations are.
You haven't seen the plans for the new stations, so you have no clue how ugly they will be. I have seen the plans. In fact, I drew most of them myself. They aren't as beautiful as they could be, but they are functional, spacious, and not bad looking at all from the street level. Most of them include small retail spaces in the lobbies, a clean, modern appearance that eliminates blind corners for security purposes, and an innovative curved canopy over the sidewalk entrance that both protects pedestrians from falling gunk from the el structure and serves as a visual gateway to the station. The canopy extends into the station itself and provides a unique interior space. The new station houses are also compact enough that they will fit within the existing ROW, without requiring the demolition of any surrounding neighborhood buildings. And yes, the new stations will also have doors. Up on the platforms, the only changes will be lengthened platforms, and the new stairs and elevators. The existing canopies, platforms and railings will be preserved and most likely cleaned up a bit. In other words, don't knock the plans until you've actually seen them.
Good luck on your petition drive. Folks in the neighborhoods surrounding the Brown Line have been clamoring for this project for years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'll respond to more of your message later, but I will say that Damen is not the only historic station along the line, and it's not unique; all stations along the Ravenswood are nearly identical. I don't know why the CTA chose Damen to preserve.
I still don't agree; I've been in every single station and all it needs is cleaning.
Well, if they all look the same, then perhaps they chose one at random, as only one would need to be preserved.
[Well, if they all look the same, then perhaps they chose one at random, as only one would need to be preserved.]
The thing is that they don't all look the same. The station houses on the surface section of the line is different then the station houses on the elevated portion. The station houses functioned adequately when token agents collected cash fares, but their functionality was reduced with the introduction of the intrusive fare collecting hardware. Don't get me wrong, I think the farecard and its corresponding fare collection equipment is a step forward, but it just doesn't fit into circa 1900's station houses.
Also, there are some very tight clearances on some of the platforms and stairways. In 1900, when the Northwestern was building it line, they must not have envisioned rush hour crowds.
Each station has its own character, as the station was built to conform to the land area available at the time. As a railfan I will miss the old stations, but as a daily rider I will welcome wider and less congested platforms, stairways and station houses.
Rebuilding both lines for service into the 21st century would probably cost only half the money the projects reportedly cost if ADA was not a requirement. But then, ADA is a fact of life in the civilized world today, and accepting federal funds mandates ADA compliance.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Sorry, I still don't agree. Even with the new fare collection equiptment, the stations serve their purpose perfectly. The platforms have always been packed at rush hour; of course when the line was built, the company knew that, but there was just no room to make the platforms bigger.
BTW, the only way the platforms can be extended nowadays is by demolishing buildings, which I guess the CTA will have to do.
Especially the grade level stations; I will chain myself to the bulldozer if they don't save Rockwell and Francisco; those two stations are some of the most pleasent and quaint on the system.
All of the Ravenswood stations should be preserved in some way; not just one. I think most riders will agree with me. Almost all the people I've talked to have.
Expect a big uproar over this; I'm going to make some calls soon, and possibly start a petition.
In my opinion, the funds could be put to much better projects such as extending the Jackson Park "L" to Stony Island again.
-Jacob
[The platforms have always been packed at rush hour; of course when the line was built, the company knew that, but there was just no room to make the platforms bigger.]
Jacob, when the Northwestern was built in 1900, there were cows grazing at Wilson Avenue! The Northwestern didn't have the room to build adequate platforms and station houses? I don't think so, what the Northwestern did was to do things 'on the cheap'. How else do you explain the curves and kinks in the Northside 'L' line?
One thing to keep in mind, when the Northwestern was built, stations were spaced every 1/4 mile, or every two blocks. With twice as many stations, the commuting population was 'spread out' more. The only reason the Wellington station (3000 N) exists today, is that the Belmont (3200 N) wouldn't be able to handle the ensuing crowds.
And don't tell me you would like to see all those quaint 'L' stations, such as Wrightwood, Willow, etc. come back. If we had all those stations it would double the commute time to the Loop.
-Jim K.
Chicago
I never said I wanted the long-gone "L" stations to come back. I just want the current ones preserved, because they serve their purpose perfectly.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
All the stations on the Ravenswood need is a good cleaning.
The curves on the Northside "L" line were to get around the various churches, etc., in the area that were there long before the "L".
Yes, the Northwestern elevated has lots of kinks and
curves, but most of them are simply adjustments to the
property lines. In every quarter section the city and the
developers ran those little half block streets either E-W
or N-S aligning the lots sold. Then some used 20 ft, 25
ft and 30 ft lots.
The big curves along North AV were caused by seeking out
"cheaper" real estate. The curve reduction at North and
Halsted seems as lost as the idea of a crosstown transit
although the CTA still takes aerial surveys of this and
other corridors.
Th so-called Church Curve does take the tracks around a
still-standing church near Division ST.
The Englewood "L" had the property adjustment kinks too,
but except for the one west of Halsted, they're so slight
they're hardly noticed. The two 90 degree curves probably
were seeking cheaper right-of-ways.
The kinks on the south side main between 14th ST and 43rd
ST were mainly the result of the third track being added
to the east side of the existing structure, then to the
other side a block or so down.
By the way, the steelwork beneath the Belmont station
shows the platforms were lengthened long ago to their
present length. But the two block spacings of the
original "L" was because the "L" competed with the
streetcar lines, not because of capacity.
David Harrison
[But the two block spacings of the original "L" was because the "L" competed with the streetcar lines, not because of capacity.]
Yes David, you are correct. Originally, the 'L' did compete with the CSL for passengers.
My point is, with stations only two blocks apart, there would be less congestion at these stations, as the number of passengers would be spread out. When you remove 1/2 the number of stations, the same amount of passengers must 'crowd' onto the remaining stations.
Case in point, if the LaSalle/VanBuren 'L' station is torn down (CTA's wish, but huge objections from the Board of Trade), those riders will have to resort to Qunicy/Wells (already jammed) or the Library stations nearby.
-Jim K.
Chicago
BTW, when Loop stations close or are consolidated, there has NEVER been a case of the new station having increased ridership, or even the combined ridership of the two older stations.
The Loop is the one place in the system where there NEEDS to be lots of stations, besides the fact that the LaSalle/Van Buren station house is in almost perfect condition, and is the only remaining from the Van Buren leg of the Loop (all sides of the Loop had different station house designs).
Removing Loop stations will not speed up operations significantly at all; the major choke point in the Loop is Tower 12, NOT the number of stations.
-Jacob
Funny you should mention Al (Bore) Gore. He's also promising Denver to ante up for the Southeast Corridor light rail line, for which Mr. Bill earmarked 56% of what was originally requested for the initial stage.
This appeared in yesterday's Rocky Mountain News: the Southwest Corridor is slated to open on July 14. (How nice - I may be in Lithuania during that event.) Testing is to begin next month, assuming the rest of the overhead wires are installed by then. Eight of the 14 new LRVs have been delivered.
No, it's not a good idea. Consider this: the Douglas project would probably be $200 million cheaper, and take much less time if all the stations weren't going to be replaced with absolutely huge monstrosities. I've seen the Douglas stations and all they need is a good cleaning. The amount of ridership does not justify replacing all the stations.
The only thing the Douglas needs is structural repair; not all new stations. Some stations need a good cleaning, and that's IT!
Same thing with the Ravenswood; think about it: 2 CARS will be added during rush hour for $300 million. It sounds rediculous just saying it. What, does the CTA think that after it runs 8 cars, everyone will be seated? No, there will still be plenty of standees, and more people will probably start riding because they think there is more capacity.
Two rediculous CTA money-wasters.
-Jacob
No, it's not a good idea. Consider this: the Douglas project would probably be $200 million cheaper, and take much less time if all the stations weren't going to be replaced with absolutely huge monstrosities. I've seen the Douglas stations and all they need is a good cleaning. The amount of ridership does not justify replacing all the stations.
I've seen the Douglas branch stations as well, and most of them look like something from a third-world country. Even the filthiest stations I've seen on the NYC system can't compare to them, with the possible exception of the pre-renovation Franklin Shuttle line. We must have been looking at two different Douglas lines.
The only thing the Douglas needs is structural repair; not all new stations. Some stations need a good cleaning, and that's IT!
Well, given the fact that the structure is what holds the stations up, I'd say it's rather difficult to replace the structure without also replacing the stations. I suppose it could be done, but it would be much more trouble than it's worth.
Same thing with the Ravenswood; think about it: 2 CARS will be added during rush hour for $300 million. It sounds rediculous just saying it. What, does the CTA think that after it runs 8 cars, everyone will be seated? No, there will still be plenty of standees, and more people will probably start riding because they think there is more capacity.
Nobody expects to have a seat on any line of the L during rush hour, and an 8-car Brown Line will be no exception. However, I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to at least be able to board the first train that shows up at the station, instead of waiting for 2-3 trains to go past before I am able to even squeeze myself onto the third or fourth train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've read with great interest the running comentary on this subject. While I agree with some comments, and disagree with others, I'd like to add a few of my own.
Fact - CTA MUST replace all the stations to make them meet ADA requirements. That is the price to be paid today for accepting public funds.
As much as I'll miss the Ravenswood stations, I must ask, try using the stairway at Belmont or Fullerton during the evening rush hours. Two people can't hardly pass on the stairway. As for a ramp, or elevator (ADA), there will have to be room made somewhere on already crowded stations.
Look at Quincy/Wells during the rush hour. I'm very familiar as it is my stop in the Loop. Evanston and Midway trains use the inner Loop track, the Evanston runs on a 6-10 minute headway, and the Midway on a 5-8 minute headway. The platform is absolutely jammed at 5:15 - 5:30 PM. This is an example of the CTA using federal funds to 'maintain' the 1890's design. Ride up the line one stop to Washington/Wells - yes an 'ugly' station, but functional and not as crowded as Quincy/Wells, but board as many people. The only design flaw in this station is CTA should have provided stairways to the fare payment area from Madison Street also. CTA has a habit of not studying what is good for the customer, only what is good for CTA.
The Douglas, I have mixed feelings on. It will be a long shot to predict the volume of ridership after the thing is rebuilt and normal train speeds can again occur. I can't remember the last time I rode on a Douglas train where it actually made it even close to the 55 MPH MAS on CTA. The neighborhoods it serves are not what I would refer to a thriving.
However, the last time I took a ride to 63rd/Ashland (on a Sunday morning), I saw some signs of gentrification in the housing along the old Southside Mainline. While I alway felt it would have been a great idea if in 1969, the Southside 'L' would have been rerouted onto the Dan Ryan using two inner local tracks, and a set of outer express tracks could have been reserved for the Lake-Dan Ryan. 'Express' trains could have served Sox-35th and Garfield, with the locals making stops in between every 1/2 mile. A new ramp could have been constructed to rejoin the A-Englewood and Jackson Park-B branches.
The southside 'L' today will be getting more ridership once the new main Chicago Police station opens at 35th. The gentrifaction from South Loop is moving further south. Who's to say how far south this will extend. So rebuilding the Lake-Southside Lines might have been a good idea afterall. Fact - CTA has reduced rush hour serve from 10-minute headways to 7.5-minute headways to reduce overcrowding.
On the Ravenswood, the CTA wants to extend the platforms for the Ravenswood Line for one reason, and one reason only. They are looking to move the headways from 3 minutes to 4 or 5 - a longer wait for you, the customer. What does this mean, less total trains, and less operator's jobs. Don't be lulled into thinking it will mean more seats going into or out of the Loop at rush hour. Consider that into the early 1960's, the CTA was running Evanston, Ravenswood and North Shore trains via the Northside 'L'. Granted, there were four tracks between Armitage and Institute Place (just north of Chicago/Franklin), but it reduced to two tracks going into the Loop. An old 1963 Evanston Express timetable I have showed service running on a 3-minute headway for about a half hour in the evening. The North Shore ran their evening rush hour every 3-5 minutes 5-5:30 PM. Add to that the numerous Ravenswood trains, I'm sure it was quite a show, and many more trains than today. Keep in mind that the 'L' DID NOT have CAB/ATS signalling in those days.
Two things, try to remember that the CTA will be in control of the money and planning of both of these 'improvements'. It is a VERY large amount of money. The CTA has proven time and again, that they can bungle any project large or small. Also keep in mind that King Richard is going to want to get his hands on this money, by way of CTA and Kruesi, to dole out to his cronies. Small payment for his lobbying efforts.
Stay tuned, remember the Pulaski station, and the promised Morgan/Sagamon station on the Lake, are not yet rebuilt/built - ran out of money I think the excuse was.
Jim K.
Chicago
I totally agree with most of what you are saying. The CTA was run much better in the 60s and 70s, and the quality of service today is still nowhere near what it used to be. Consider this: the Evanston Express never runs more frequently than every 7 minutes (and at some times it only runs every 14); the trains are packed during rush hour.
As to ADA: The CTA is NOT required to make stations ADA complient unless they are completely renovating or replacing the station. How are Belmont and Fullerton going to become ADA complient without demolishing buildings? There is barely room for the current platforms, and they have to be widened for elevators.
Well, Pilsen and Little Village along the Douglas are certainly thriving.
I still cannot figure out David's claim about the Ravenswood stations crumbling to the ground; do you think so? I just used Irving Park 2 hours ago, and it's a quaint, beuitiful station that just needs a little TLC.
New does not equal better. Sometimes old stations are better than new ones. Most of the time, actually.
Washington/Wells should never have been built; it does NOT have the combined ridership of the Madison/Wells and Randolph/Wells stations; many people just started driving because the stations were no longer convinent to where they worked. I hope the CTA realizes their mistake before the build the "superstation" on the east side of the Loop.
The Dan Ryan "L" shouldn't have been built; the Southside "L" should have been rehabbed and extended south in the 60s. The Dan Ryan really drained resources from the Englewood-Jackson Park.
Another smart move the CTA should make is to extend the Evanston platforms and through-route the Howard to Linden except when the Evanston Express is running. The Evanston Shuttle is really an abomination.
So, want to help hand out leaflets, Jim? I'm going to try to print something up to oppose the Ravenswood expansion (including a petition).
So, want to help hand out leaflets, Jim? I'm going to try to print something up to oppose the Ravenswood expansion (including a petition).
While you're at it, you should print some flyers and circulate some petitions on the Upper East Side of NYC to oppose the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, because I'm sure most people would agree that the Lexington Avenue line still serves its function perfectly.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[So, want to help hand out leaflets, Jim? I'm going to try to print something up to oppose the Ravenswood expansion (including a petition).
While you're at it, you should print some flyers and circulate some petitions on the Upper East Side of NYC to oppose the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, because I'm sure most people would agree that the Lexington Avenue line still serves its function perfectly.]
I am not opposed to rebuilding the CTA rail system. What is needed is a well equipped functioning rail system fed by feeder bus routes, instead of the system of competing forms of bus and trains both headed towards the Loop.
What I'd like the CTA to do is to decide what stations REALLY need COMPLETE rebuilding. This would be measured by criteria such as ridership, location, and available expansion. Those should be given the complete rebuilding job. Most others could just use extended platforms. The problem with this is that Federal Transit Money (with a capital M) pretty much dictates 'new' or start-up systems get the bulk of the wealth. How King Richard and company got the Douglas money as 'start up' money is beyond me and some of my railfan friends. It leads you to believe that Douglas will be a tear down and build back up project.
Jacob, you are correct in what you are saying about the Irving Park station. I was just through there last week, and probably most of the daily riders don't mind using it. It is safe, functioning, and clean station. But look at a station like Diversey, where the platform is in the 'kink' for pitty sake. It is dangerously narrow at the north end. That station platform should be moved four car lengths south, and an auxiliary entrance/exit stairway from both platforms should be installed on the southside of Diversey for passengers who want to use the #76 bus line.
CTA, in its infinite wisdom closed down the North & Halsted station on between Armitage and Sedgwick stations in 1949. I know that the neighborhood that thrives today was not so when they tore it down. Should there be one in that vicinity today, you bet. What does this mean? Decisions and changes that took place fifty years ago don't always make sense today.
As for the Belmont and Fullerton stations, I don't know what CTA has in mind for making them more customer friendly and expansive. They are really 'hemmed in' at both locations. Remember that CTA had a chance to enlarge and modernize Fullerton before the buildings on the westside of the station were built. Go figure. It would be prohibitively expensive to do anything there today.
I can not support your claim that the Dan Ryan should never been built. I'm not a proponent of expressway median rail lines, but we have three in Chicago, and they aren't going away. The expressway median transit line is isolated from the customers it's trying to lore, however, the Dan Ryan carries as many, if not more, riders than the O'Hare.
One last note, service, I expect that while we will probably never see 2-minute headways in the State Street Subway again (pity), I feel that CTA under Frank Kruesi's rein has made an effort. I personally would like to see trains running on a decent 3-5 minute headway during the morning and evening rush.
Trains, stations and buses are cleaner, some of the operating personnel are friendlier, and CTA has added more trains and buses to some over-taxed lines (Blue, Brown, Green, and Red). While the CTA has a long way to go, and we probably never get back to the 1960/70's standard of service, there has been improvements since the dark days of 1996-97.
Nothing is more constant than change itself.
-Jim K.
Chicago
About Diversey: It was obviously made that thin at the ends because it had to be. Is there room to widen the platform at that location nowadays? I never thought it was dangerously narrow. But that's all simple platform stuff; the Diversey station house is beuitiful and serves it's purpose well.
There were many "other side of the street" exits on the embankment portion of the North Side Main. Most have been closed because of security reasons. Also, how many people want to transfer to the Diversey bus going east? It's very close to the end of it's run at that point. I'd only build an extra exit if the number of bus riders going that way was going to be very large.
I'm concerned about stations such as Sedgwick and Chicago/Franklin which were mainline stations on the old Northwestern elevated; those stations have even more beuitiful detailing than the Ravenswood stations and need to be preserved.
[There were many "other side of the street" exits on the embankment portion of the North Side Main. Most have been closed because of security reasons. Also, how many people want to transfer to the Diversey bus going east? It's very close to the end of it's run at that point. I'd only build an extra exit if the number of bus riders going that way was going to be very large.]
There are actually people who live at or near Sheridan Road who want a bus ride eastbound. It happens to be five blocks from the 'L' and Sheridan Road - over 1/2 mile. But, let us not forget those who are coming eastbound in the morning who want to transfer to the 'L'. Wouldn't an entrance on the southside of the street, as the one at Wilson, enable the passengers to get to the platform without crossing the busy street.
Jacob, it is becoming apparent to me that you just don't want to see anything change - in particular the transit in Chicago. I expect you'd go back to riding the 6000's, cold and drafty in the winter and hot and sticky in the summer, rather than endure the air-conditioned 2600 & 3200 fleets. I enjoyed those cars too, and still do, except I journey to Union, IL to ride them. They are in the museum where they belong.
I agree that Sedgwick is a classic old 'L' station. It, along with Chicago/Franklin has been gaining riders over the years. But as I said before, unless the buildings are protected under some preservation act, they very well may come down.
Let's face it. I'd like to be able to walk out to Broadway & Barry to board a #36 Broadway-State PCC, but could the streetcars have survived in today's traffic congestion competition for space on the street.
Change, whether welcomed or embraced by us, will always be with us.
-Jim K.
Chicago
It's not that I don't want to see anything change. I want to see more runs added, I want the Douglas "L" structure to be rehabbed, and I want new "L" extensions. I also want all the slow zones througout the system to be removed, and all of the historic "L" stations to be cleaned.
Yes, it would be nice if some of the 6000s still ran. But the newer cars are nice too, although I hate the new full-width cabs.
-Jacob
[Yes, it would be nice if some of the 6000s still ran. But the newer cars are nice too, although I hate the new full-width cabs.]
One thing we can agree on - I too dislike the full-width cabs. The greatest railfan seat created is sorely missed by this fan!
- Jim K
Chicago
Do you realize that February 16 will mark the 43rd anniversary of the end of streetcar service on the Broadway portion of the #36 route? That was the next-to-last streetcar route to survive. I still lament that I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago.
When was the last time you tried to get on a southbound #4 train at 86th Street at 8:10AM? Give us a break. Lexington Avenue service is crush-loaded to dangerous levels and is even packed to the rafters in mid-day and late into the evening.
Wayne
H