Happy Y2K ... the biggest non-event of all time!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Phones are still working, the power didn't go out, haven't seen any airliners plummet from the sky (yet) ... guess it sure was a non-event!
Anyway, Happy New Year!
Most importantly, the internet, my computer and this site are still up.
Well, happy new year, decade, century, and millenium.
Anon_e_mouse, you are nearly perfect to post it!
Happy new year to all SubTalkers!
Chaohwa
But....
You, anon_e_mouse, have the FIRST Subtalk post of the new year.
Two seconds past midnight.
Even out her in the boonies, all the fire sirens went off at midnight. Can't remember that happening any other year.
Happy new year to all!!! Everything went safe and sound!!!
Happy New Year to Sub & Bus Buffs & enjoy 2000. I have no problem with my computer & phone. So take care & be safe because there could be a shootout around the city.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
HAPPY 2000 TO EVERYBODY!
NOTHING
HAPPENED!!
We should have a scare this good every year!
Yeah, that's the best thing of all! Nothing happened!
Everyone was so sc*r^d tkl lk*&^#@%* 1oij3 (* iuH- 1hb3= IUNPIFV bOHBHJPB O{sshd-=m1;om3]l,sn=m 1[sn1 1 1323 n=jm =jm @2 728=-.,,.
I spoke to an MBTA operator tonight on the way home from First Night. Things were running so smoothly, the Green Line(at least), did NOT shut down between 11:55 and 12:10.
Happy. happy , happy to all. My son in Wash. D.C. called us at 12:30 to tell us he was betrothed! In a reverse switch his girlfriend proposed to him! Maybe they should take a ride on the Metro to celebrate!
Have a good year, everyone!
Chuck Greene
You were SCARED??????
Not in the least.
I don't give way to public hype. I ruined the new year for the rest of my family by proving the new millennium starts next year.
I return, we're having Christmas leftovers for New Years dinner instead of the ham I've asking for.
We toasted the new year with water, not champagne. Not because we don't have champagne, but because I don't like alcohol. I made up some story to give it meaning.
Not in the least.
I don't give way to public hype. I ruined the new year for the rest of my family by proving the new millennium starts next year.
I return, we're having Christmas leftovers for New Years dinner instead of the ham I've been asking for.
Happy New Year to all! I can hardly wait to rag on my brother-in-law who was seriously afraid that the world was going to shut down when the clock struck 12! He had his family load up on food, bottled water, etc.! He watched too many Y2K disaster movies!.......Too bad that Anon e mouse wasn't just 2 seconds quicker in posting the original message!
Hey, I punched the POST button the instant my computer (here at the office - I'm on Y2K duty) said 00:00:00 - the 2 seconds is the lag time for the post to be logged in, I guess!
All has gone smoothly here, as expected. In a few minutes I can go home and get another good day's sleep before coming back in for another overnight shift.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No problems in the financial system, or on the subway. But my wife still had to go in today, just in case. I feel sorry for the City Planner who had to sit in the bunker. I was and Grand Army Plaza, and the fireworks were great.
Raise a glass of warm, flat champagne to all the Cassandras on television and in the newspapers urging us to buy a week's worth of groceries and water in case the power went off and the infrastructure broke down. What a bunch of blathering idiots.
www.forgotten-ny.com
01/01/00
Well it looks like Anon_E_mouse is the first SubTalker to post in the new millennium. Congradulations, maybe you should print that post and frame it. I feel kinda good too, right about now some of those party animals are taking down the 1999 (old millennium) Subway Calendar and putting up the 2000 (new millennium)one. Then without shaving and having breakfast are plopping down in bed to sleep off their hangovers !!
As far as the GREAT MILLENNIUM SCARE of 1999, I too am amused of all those fools who stocked up on bottled water,canned goods etc. that would that would suffice for a nuclear attack rather than a bunch of computers going berserk!! On the news they even had videos of people going to home depot buying flashlights, gasoline generators and even camping (propane) stoves!! WHAT FOOLS !! This proves that the news media has a svengali type hold on peoples psyche who just can't excerize common sense. I purchased some millennium items but not what those fools purchased. I found out through Subway Steve about SEPTA's Millennium $2 Passes. I purchased them on line and received them a couple of days later. They're bigger than Metrocards and made of thick paper, good from 12/31/99 5PM to 01/01/00 5AM as well as regional rail. I bought them as collectibles for me and my friends. If SEPTA didn't sell them all maybe the gift shop will sell them off. Thanks Subway Steve!!
DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF THE TA SUSPENDED SUBWAY SERVICE BEFORE AND AFTER THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT ??
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY NEW MILLENIUM !!
AMEN Kevin! My cousin who works construction has been wanting to buy a generator for some time (for work), so I told him to wait until Feb or March, cause theres gonna be a whole bunch of them that people are going to trying to unload! Ya notice all the Y2K 'experts' are now trying to backtrack, saying that well, now we have to wait for a couple of months just to make sure,etc etc....If anything, the month or so should REALLY wake people up to show how COWARDLY and craven most of the politicians and bureaucrats truly are-they KNEW nothing was/is gonna happen, but, by God we're gonna show folks that we are doing our jobs, and act like the end of the world is coming ( and spend billions of out tax dollars doing it!)! Can you imagine LaGuardia acting like Rudy has the last month or so??? This business hunkering down in a bunker just for show is the INSANE!! Anyway-EVERYONE here have a Happy,Safe FUN, and Prosperous New Year!!!
[Raise a glass of warm, flat champagne to all the Cassandras on television and in the newspapers urging us to buy a week's worth of groceries and water in case the power went off and the infrastructure broke down. What a bunch of blathering idiots.]
Yeah, all that Y2K nonsense, it was so ... hey, what's that noise ... why are the neighbors shooting each other and why is that airliner crashing :-)
happy new year to all. everything still works (almost the answer machine broke a tape but i don't think it was y2k caused)
BMT Standard #2000 is the official subway car of the new millennium.
31K download.
Best to ALL !!!!
And an honorable mention should also go to R62A #2000, of the #3 Line "Years Of Our Lives" fleet!
Happy New Year to All and to All A Good Night! I'm tired.
Wayne
My PC made it- IRT (the first of my 3 pcs) survived. BMT will be tested later and IND is already compliant
Hope all subtalkers have pcs that are still alive.
Transit was interesting- cops in riot helmets- 7-8-10-12 per station!
seeing R trains all night, 2/3 trains express all night!
My PC survived also.
I had tested mine on Wed..( i.e. setting the calender ahead to 12/31 then seeing what happened the next morning!)
01/01/00
Not only did my PC survive (Hewlett-Packard 4455), but also my Toshiba VCR. This 10 year old model's clock made the change with no problem.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIUM !!
My 11 year, 3 (now 4) month old VCR (still as good as the new crap) doesn't even know the date, it just goes by the time and the day of week. I don't see any reason why VCRs would need to know the year.
01/01/00
Defy Reason,
Believe me, this particular model does have month,day,year in it's clock!
Bill Newkirk
Well, let's see...
Mytwo computers rolled over (I left them on), my girlfreind's new camcorder rolled, my digital camera rolled had to be reset (but I don't think it's Y2K related, because it does this whenever I take out the batteries), TV and VCR rolled. My parent's VCR did not roll, but then, it's still says 12:00. Mom's computer rolled, and my fridge, microwave, oven, and car still run.
The only problem was the clock-sync software I use could not contact the server tick.usno.navy.mil or tock.usno.navy.mil.
-Hank
The non-connect to usno.mavy.mil was because the friendly DOD shut down 97% of their servers due to Y2k/Terror hype.
Well, let's see...
Mytwo computers rolled over (I left them on), my girlfreind's new camcorder rolled, my digital camera rolled had to be reset (but I don't think it's Y2K related, because it does this whenever I take out the batteries), TV and VCR rolled. My parent's VCR did not roll, but then, it's still says 12:00. Mom's computer rolled, and my fridge, microwave, oven, and car still run.
The only problem was the clock-sync software I use could not contact the server tick.usno.navy.mil or tock.usno.navy.mil.
-Hank
I was going to light a candle at 5 minutes to midnight, but I forgot. At 12:30 or so, I realized that I forgot to light a candle just in case the power would go out. I figured that if anything, it would take 10 or 15 minutes to go off the grid if needed. The lights didn't even flicker. Nothing at all failed to function. I wasn't online at midnight, but decided to go online around 1 AM to see if everything was functioning. It was. All the Y2K scare seemed to be for nothing.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
My 11 year, 3 (now 4) month old VCR (still as good as the new crap) doesn't even know the date, it just goes by the time and the day of week. I don't see any reason why VCRs would need to know the year.
I bought the current VCR that I use in 1993. It has the year. I guess its to program something to be recorded wwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy down the road.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I still can't get mine to stop flashing 12:00!!!
Jeffrey Rosen: I still can't get mine to stop flashing 12:00!!!
There is a very simple solution for this problem. (I use it on my VCR). Get a piece of black electrical tape, and apply it over the flashing 12:00. It will cease to be a problem! :-)
Happy New Year,
BWB
I wasn't worried about any computers but for the last 3 years I was really worried about what my digital watch would do. Its amazing, it actually went to Saturday 1/1/00 !!!
BY the way, I hope all the computer technicians have learned their lesson and started thinking ahead before any other big calendar changes. I mean 9999 will be here before we know it and I hope the computer people can account for the extra digit. Lets start allowing for 5 places while we still have time!!!!
I had tested mine on Wed..( i.e. setting the calender ahead to 12/31 then seeing what happened the next morning!)
There was more to that test than most people think. If you set the date to 12/31/1999 at a few minutes before midnight, and it rolled over to 01/01/2000 with the day being Saturday, your PC was considered to be Y2K compliant. Some older PC's would roll over to 01/01/2000 with the day being Thursday. Those PC's were actually recognizing 1900. I conducted this test back in June. All my 'puters passed - the 350 MHz machine with a 10/98 BIOS, the 133 Mhz machine with a 6/97 BIOS, and even my old 25 Mhz 486 laptop with a 10/92 BIOS passed. I guess you would have to be running a 386 to have something non-compliant.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
My Brother tried out a Y2K test on his older PC and set the clock as 12/31 and guess what happened! The clock then read 01/01/2094!!!
Not Y2K compliant, in fact he had to buy a new computer since modifying it to be Y2K compliant would cost more than what the PC is worth.
Bill Newkirk
My Brother tried out a Y2K test on his older PC and set the clock as 12/31 and guess what happened! The clock then read 01/01/2094!!!
Not Y2K compliant, in fact he had to buy a new computer since modifying it to be Y2K compliant would cost more than what the PC is worth.
Bill Newkirk
All it needed was a new BIOS. They even sold boards with a BIOS on board to make computers Y2K compliant. To tell you the truth, if the computer wasn't Y2K compliant, it was time for an upgrade anyway. To me, an upgrade means a new processor, and usually a new motherboard to go with it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I didn't expect any Y2K problems at home. I was not disappointed. I have my doubts about my AS400 at work though. Oh well, Monday will tell. Happy Holidays to AllSteve
I was wondering if there would be 7th Ave. express service on New Year's Eve. It made sense, given all the people in Times Square.
IRT Composite Trailer #2000 built by the Jewett Car Company in 1904-05.
BRT Standard #2000 built by the American Car and Foundry Company in 1914.
NYCTA R-62A #2000 built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries in 1984-87.
How about you trolley dodgers out there, any others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
San Diego Trolley missed by one, they started their new batch of Siemens cars at 2001.
I believe Salt Lake City may have started their series at 2000.
IRT Composite Trailer #2000 built by the Jewett Car Company in 1904-05.
BRT Standard #2000 built by the American Car and Foundry Company in 1914.
NYCTA R-62A #2000 built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries in 1984-87.
How about you trolley dodgers out there, any others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
wasn't there an R-10 numbered 2000?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The R-10s were numbered 1803-1852 and 3000-3349 on delivery. 1803-1852 were subsequently renumbered 2950-2999 about 1970.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-10s were numbered 1803-1852 and 3000-3349 on delivery. 1803-1852 were subsequently renumbered 2950-2999 about 1970.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wasn't there anything numbered 2000 back then, besides the A/B's?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When the R-10's were delivered in 1948 the Composite Motors held down numbers 3000-3339 and the Composite Trailers numbers 2000-2159. There many gaps in the Composite roster by that time and they were on there way out. The last one ran in service on April 28,1950. The TA decided to overlap the numbers from 3000-3349 but couldn't go any higher because the Gibbs Hi-V's still held forth on the IRT. Also the 2000 series was property of the BRT/BMT Standards and they were not going anywhere either so they had to number 50 units into the 1800 series. Duplication of numbers was not uncommon after Unification and continued right up until the Q's were retired in October of 1969. They overlapped with the R-7A's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The BMT Standard Trailers (4000-4050) also duplicated numbers used by some of the Lo-V's. Nowadays it seems they take great pains to make sure car numbers don't overlap.
Wayne
Wayne: It was inevitable that there would be duplicate and even triplicate numbers in the roster after Unification. Both the IRT and BRT started numbering the el cars at 1. The BRT system ran up to 1499 with 1500 being used for the C's and 1600 for the Q's and QX's. There even where a few el cars in the 3200's from the New York and Sea Beach and the Brooklyn,Bath and West End. The IRT el cars ran up to 1812 and the cars that received MUDC retained the original numbers.
Interestingly both the IRT and BRT started the subway numbers at 2000. The IRT for the Composite Trailers and the BRT for the Standards. IRT subway numbers ran up to 5652 for the World's Fair cars and the R-12 continued right on from there. The BRT/BMT jumped from to 4000 for the BX trailers,6000 for the Triplexes and 7000 for the Multis and the renumbered Green Hornet and Multis. I believe this was done to avoid conflict with their surface car fleet. The IND of course ran from 100 to 1802 and the R-10's picked up from there.
The most interesting series has to be the low 8000's. It was used for the Bluebirds(the BMT ones),the second and fourth sections of the Zephyr and Green Hornet and more recently for the R-11's and the R-110A's. Prior to the R-33's the only cars in the 9000 series where the middle or third units of the GH and Zephyr.
Larry,RedbirdR33
DC Metro has cars for the next century (2000-2099).
Breda 2000 series is only from 2000 to 2075.
Chaohwa
OK, I did find one Y2K glitch. My pre-printed personalized checking deposit slips have the line:
Date_________________19____.
OK, I did find one Y2K glitch. My pre-printed personalized checking deposit slips have the line:
Date_________________19____.
Mine are Y2K compliant. They just have a line for the year. You write the whole year in. I use a rubber date stamp for checks, which is also Y2K compliant, right up to Dec. 31, 2002. then, I'll chuck it and get a new rubber stamp.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
My checks are compliant. Its just the deposit slips with the 19__. But when do I get to use a deposit slip anyway?
Who knows the BMT marker light code real well? What route is that car running on?
Myrtle Ave Line, Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St, both directions.
Y2K IS THE BIGGEST JOKE IN THE WORLD TODAY. ANYONE WHO FELT FOR IT IS A MORON. ABSOLUTELY NO TRANSIT SYSTEMS WERE AFFECTED BY THE Y2K NO EXISTING GLITCH AND I REMIND ALL OF YOU THAT MOST SYSTEMS ARE CONTROLLED BY RELAYS ANYWAY.
WHAT A JOKE.
I would say Brighton Express, which would be correct as far as it goes, but Brighton via Bridge would be more accurate. Theater specials, which operated local in Brooklyn, via Bridge and express in Manhattan, aos carried red-green.
When I was a kid, I used to hang out at the abandoned Matts' mansion property, south side of Albemarle and adjacent to the west side of the Brighton right-of-way. When the first northbound local came through with red-green markers, I knew the expresses were done for the day and the Daily News and Mirror would be at the newsstand at Church Ave.
Someone asked earlier if anybody rode the TSQ shuttle or saw the 2000-2001 on the 3. I rode both the TSQ shuttle and the 3 but did not see 2000-2001.
This is my first post of the New Year.
Even though the 21st Century and 3rd Millenium doesn't really begin until 2001, I won't be a party-pooper.
This is the year 2000, the year we've all been waiting for.
This is the year we all looked forward to and used as sort of a deadline, if you will (well, by the year 2000, bah bah bah) or (wow, man, Year 2000! That's like . . . the future, dude!)
Well, here it is. It's come and is here to stay for a year.
I enjoyed the occasion at the home of a Greek family here in Jersey, who is very close to my family (we're Armenian). We celebrated with traditional Greek food, music and hospitality, with a touch of Armenian here and there (the two cultures are quite similar in many areas, ESPECIALLY food and music!)
When the ball scored a touchdown (pull-eez ;-), some of us ran outside and shouted like maniacs (I think all that vodka started taking its toll).
Anyway, I just want to also say that I'm glad that the old IRT workhorses -- the Redbirds -- have made it this far and I hope we can get another year or two of service out of them before they are gone for good. At the true turn of the century/millenium, the R-142/A's will be running side-by-side with the Redbirds.
To all of us who love the Redbirds, such as myself, and who have special and fond memories associated with them, their retirement will certainly be solumn. But that's progress. We all know they can't be in passenger service forever. But don't worry too much about it.
I personally believe that that special and perfect vision of a perfect world that we individually hold in our minds (we all have different perfect worlds, of course) will come alive in the Next Life.
The 2nd Avenue subway, Brooklyn Streetcars, direct transit service to the Airports, subway service to Staten Island, LIRR service to Grand Central, or what have you -- these things, or whatever you vision as being perfect, will all be alive in the Next Life.
Happy New Year to All.
Dear Sir, Would you consider e-mailing me directly? viz. We are both Armenians and although the name Vartan is quite common, perhaps we might be kin. (our surname was changed circa 1820 from Vartanian when the Russians took over in Tiflis) Thank you, David Vartanoff
Forgot to mention this earlier: I was watching the news show 20/20 -- I think it was Thursday night -- and they were doing a piece on the bizarre life of actor Gary Coleman. Anyhow, they were discussing his love of trains and one short sequence had him being interviewed down at the Court St. platform of the Transit Museum. Only those who've been there would have known, but you got to see the wooden Manhattan elevated car behind Coleman. Another quick shot gave a view of the low-V.
Does anyone know when this was shot? It looked recent.
Doug aka BMTman
That interview is about 1 year old. Coleman is a very big railfan (forgive the pun). His hobby is collecting model trains. They showed his setup in his condo during that same 20/20 piece.
I feel sorry for the way he was screwed over. He's really a nice, level-headed guy. To be reduced to doing bit parts in "Kid Rock" music videos is truly sad.
I agree about Gary being a nice person. Gary used to work in a model railroad shop in Brea, California and I used to patronize that store a lot. He was always the necest person to talk model railroading with.
i dont care for gary coleman!! the NEGATIVE COMMENTS about black
people he said make me sick of him !!!!
all black people are no dammed good ???????????
when was the last time he looked at himself in the mirror??
last time i sawhim on TV he is a short black man !!!!
many persons visit the new york transit museum .....
dosent make him a nice person !!!!!!
mr gary needs to check his own SELF HATRED of himself and
his people !!!! i know some model railroaders hat are very evil persons !!!! you would think model railroading would
CALM SOME PERSONS DOWN AND MAKE THEM PEACEFUL .... BUT !!??!!...
..................oh well..... but i like railfan windows !!!!!
???????
When did Gary Coleman say things against black people? And if he did, I think he has alot of mis-directed pent-up anger against blacks because his parents -- being black -- ripped him off financially. Don't forget he actually had to take his parents to court and sue them for damages. So I don't believe he meant to make any sweeping ill-remarks against black people in general. I certainly don't recall him doing so.
And yes......I KNOW YOU LOVE RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doug aka BMTman
that's it, are there any DOCTORS on this board??!!??!? somebody needs to write this guy a new prescription for RITALIN!!!!!!!
.............oh well....but he likes RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!
01/01/00
Perhaps Gary Coleman does prefer the R-40 SLANTS railfan windows since they are long and are perfect for the kids !
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIUM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????I LIKE RAILFAN WINDOWS TOO!!!!
thats BULL--- mr newkirk!!! just because you like SLANT R -40s
doesent make GARY COLEMAN who self hates himself as a short black man who goes around making NEGATIVE SELF RACIST comments
like he did on the media out here in southern california
that his own black people DO ALL THE CRIME IN AMERICA !!!
(( last time i looked gary coleman ins black ))))
and how HE HATES ALL BLACK PEOPLE !!!!!!!.....????????? what??
im glad you like RAILFAN windows !!!!! ?
Everoyne like Railfan windows who posts here and all of us are aware you do as well. As for Gary Coleman, he has had a really crapy life and is already 31. I saw the report on 20/20 as well and never heard him say anything derogatory about Blacks.
Speaking of railfan windows, is there anyone old enough on the site to remember how lousy the railfan windows were in the old 900 series BU's?
I don't know how high they really were, but I was in my teens before I was tall enough to see out, even standing on tip-toe. The high window was unique to the 900's. The 600's, 700's, 1200's and 1300's had normal waist high windows.
Speaking of railfan windows, is there anyone old enough on the site to remember how lousy the railfan windows were in the old 900 series BU's?
I don't know how high they really were, but I was in my teens before I was tall enough to see out, even standing on tip-toe. The high window was unique to the 900's. The 600's, 700's, 1200's and 1300's had normal waist high windows.
The BU's were all gone before I had a chance to ride them. But, a "lousy" railfan window is better than "no" railfan window.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
especially those r 16 and r 17 type windows !!! REAL HIGH too high
for many children !!!
especially those r 16 and r 17 type windows !!! REAL HIGH too high
for many children !!!
But like I said, a lousy railfan window is better than no railfan window.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I guess that lousy is too strong a word, but when I was a boy, I was upset not being able to see out. It was a window that you had to literally grow into. A good example of how high the window was, is pictured on page 35 of "Brooklyn Elevated".
I guess that lousy is too strong a word, but when I was a boy, I was upset not being able to see out. It was a window that you had to literally grow into. A good example of how high the window was, is pictured on page 35 of "Brooklyn Elevated".
I remember as a small child, I was able to stand by a side door on an A/B or a D-Type and look out, but not on an R-1/9. Talk about high windows. Another high window was the railfan window on the 1938 WF IRT cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
But you never had to look out the side door windows on the R1-9's. They had some forward facing seats, some were even comfortable (the red cushion ones, not the cane ones) and the windows next to them even opened.
But you never had to look out the side door windows on the R1-9's. They had some forward facing seats, some were even comfortable (the red cushion ones, not the cane ones) and the windows next to them even opened.
There are instances, like when all the window seats are taken. I remember on the D-Train (early 1960's), when the train came out of the tunnel at Smith 9th St., and my father had to hold me up so I could see out the door window.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Ah! THOSE were the ones I remember not being able to reach -- those IRT 1938 cars! I knew there was one series I couldn't see out of, even on my toes, back in my youth.
And to think I had to ride them frequently on the Bronx Third Avenue line, I always welcomed the one or two Lo-V's that would wind up on the head end of a train now and then.
I couldn't see out those circular windows on the R16's until I was 10. Until then, the R30 and R42 on the J was a welcome sight.
When the R10s came out when I was 5-6 I could not see out of them either
Could it be when they put windows in at the storm door, it was not made for the passenger, but for crew to see thru the cars for security. Enough with rail fan windows already. I too love them when I ride any type of train head or tail end.
Could it be when they put windows in at the storm door, it was not made for the passenger, but for crew to see thru the cars for security. Enough with rail fan windows already. I too love them when I ride any type of train head or tail end.
You're probably right. Nothing is really designed for the passenger, if you really look at it. The so called railfan window was probably designed partly for the crew, and also so that the passdenger knows there is either another car ahead or not. Nothing was ever designed for the railfan. If it was, there would be no full-width cabs, they would still spur-cut the gears for that wonderful RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR type sound, seats would still be rattan, etc. Envision a modern air conditioned subway car with spur-cut bull and pinion gears and rattan seats.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Fabric seats are more comfortable.
Fabric seats are more comfortable.
I prefer soft leather myself :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
Yeah but vandals loved them!
Hence, horrible fiberglass replacement seats. Remember those comfortable ones on the R19's? How about the ones on the R-16's and those sloping door panels, an chiropratics dream!
Bill Newkirk
Yeah but vandals loved them!
Hence, horrible fiberglass replacement seats. Remember those comfortable ones on the R19's? How about the ones on the R-16's and those sloping door panels, an chiropratics dream!
Bill Newkirk
Who do you suppose the TA learned the fine art of torture from? The Nazis, the Soviets, the Chinese, the Japanese?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I heard those seats were real comfy before vandals forced the TA to remove them.
Today, the prize for most uncomfortable seats goes to the R40 (owwwww!). Honerable mention goes to those SKINNY seats on the R62.
I heard those seats were real comfy before vandals forced the TA to remove them.
They were. What graffiti was in the seventies, that's what seat slashing was in the fifties and sixties. The R-26/28 in 1959-1960 and the R-27/30 in 1960-1962 were the first cars delivered with fiberglass seats. The R-7/9's (some, not all), /R-10's, R-11's, R-12/14's, R-15's, R-16's, R-17's and R-21/22's got them in 1968. I remember riding an R-16 on the #14 Broadway-Canarsie line in 1964 with every seat in the entire car slashed. The seat surgeons not only slashed the seats, but ripped out all the upholstry, so that you were sitting on bare metal. I guess the TA felt it was fighting a losing battle replacing ripped seats, so they took them out in 1968.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The metal below should have been charged with third rail power, this way the vandals could have the honor of becoming the shortest path to ground.
What about the ceiling fans?
What about the ceiling fans?
Why not? I have central air at home, yet I have ceiling fans. They allow you to operate the air at a slightly higher temperature setting and still stay nice and cool. I wish they were R-9 fans, but they're not.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Depends on how your ducting and other obstacles (furniture, etc. at home, people in a subway car) are laid out. I also have ceiling fans in my North Carolina house but they are actually a detriment when the a/c is on - they effectively stop the airflow from passing that point, so hot spots develop elsewhere in the house.
On the other hand, run in reverse mode in the wintertime they help circulate the baseboard electric heat much more efficiently.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends on how your ducting and other obstacles (furniture, etc. at home, people in a subway car) are laid out. I also have ceiling fans in my North Carolina house but they are actually a detriment when the a/c is on - they effectively stop the airflow from passing that point, so hot spots develop elsewhere in the house.
On the other hand, run in reverse mode in the wintertime they help circulate the baseboard electric heat much more efficiently.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its always cooler with both on than with just the A/C. As for heat, it would have to be down in the 30's outside for me to even consider turning it on. I live in the Miami area. It is expected to reach the low 80's here today. Then again, its expected to reach 59 in NY. Hot spell for this time of year - January thaw.
As I post this - 10:20 PM - it's still nearly 70 in New Jersey. I came to work tonight (I've still got tonight and tomorrow night on Y2K duty) without a coat and wondering if I was overdressed in my flannel shirt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As I post this - 10:20 PM - it's still nearly 70 in New Jersey. I came to work tonight (I've still got tonight and tomorrow night on Y2K duty) without a coat and wondering if I was overdressed in my flannel shirt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's a big problem. First its cold, then its very warm, then it gets cold again. Then everyone wonders why they're sick! In a few days, it will probably be 30 again. I never knew it to be in the high 60's like that up north. That's spring or fall weather. I wonder if La Nin~a has anything to do with it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It just might. All I know is I'm not complaining! The less often the oil man has to come to my house the happier I am.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It just might. All I know is I'm not complaining! The less often the oil man has to come to my house the happier I am.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think you'll be enjoying that balmy weather for long. I doubt that this is going to be a winter without snow. Wait until that frigid air comes down from Canda. That's when I'll get high of 50's with low of 30's or 40's, which is what I'm waiting for. Then it will be time to put a spring jacket over my short-sleave shirt. Being a native New Yorker, 80's in January is a bit too warm. High of 65 would be just perfect. Right now, the whole country is experiencing warm weather. Chicago and Detroit have a high of 49 and 48, NYC has a high of 62, and Miami has a high of 81.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It was just another sh*tty day here in Paradise on Maui, Weather balmy, breezy at 10-15mph. High 82 low 76. No rain, Had air and ceiling fan on, it seems the fan helps move the aircon around,
IHe does not Ritilin, that will bring him some more. Maybe Thorazine to calm him down. I met Gary Coleman many times in LA when we both patronized Allied Trains when it was in Rancho Park(W LA) and not moved to Culver City, Nice Guy.
What you talking about Willis Willie?
LOL!
Could you tell from the picture if it was the car on loan from Branford, or one of the re-rebuilt 1400 BU's that served for many years as "Q's"?
I think it was the Branford car. And from Chris R.'s post it looks like the footage they used was something from an interview conducted last year.
On behalf of the Broadway Lines (N Q? R), HAPPY NEW YEAR!
N Broadway Express
01/01/00
HAPPY NEW YEAR (N) BROADWAY EXPRESS.
Let's make a new years resolution, the return of the (N) as the BROADWAY EXPRESS via the Manhattan Bridge.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIU!!
I have been patiently waiting for someone...anyone to report on "heypaul's" seed pods and whether they worked or not. Is MTA once again using all the old equipment or did the pods abort?
I had heard that he was quoted as saying he thought he had mixed up the pods and that it was possible that there would be 6,000 R1-9's rolling around the subways today.
Rumor has it that the BMT Standard seed pods sprouted in the IRT, causing massive tie-ups as they became stuck in the tunnels and could not reach the stations. Furthermore, all platform additions disappeared so only five-car trains could be used.
The seed pods intended for the N scale modelers sprouted on the IND while the HO pods were released on the BMT, causing major capacity problems on all lines except the G. The real worry now is what will happen when a modeler waters an IRT or IND pod and has a full-sized car suddenly appear on their dining room table.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully a bird (redbird, that is) flying south took one of those pods with him. I'd better go down to the Miami Metrorail tomorrow to see what's running on that. If its a Forney pulling a train of gate cars, I'll post the pics on SubTalk.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was watching all the festivities and heard about the tight security.
How were things at all the subway stations in the TSQ area, especially TS/42nd?
It would have been something if they had gone through so much to secure the area in other ways just for something to come via the subway.
And yes, I gave in to the hype(for now) with the first 2000-related handle change. Shame on me.
Yes there was Police Activity of here on the East Side of town. The Police Locked Every emergency Exit from Grand Central to 59 Street on the Uptown Express Track.
Saw this on the Brighton Line going to Manhattan around the Church Avenue Station. All 8 cars had this sign, dont know if it was a fluke or not, becasue it was picking up passangers. This is what the sign said:
C Bedford Park Boulevard
Bronx
Special
is this just a goof from the signs itself, or this was going to be a C or just a new year's blunder? anyone know, please let me know.
was it on the express or local tracks?
"Saw this on the Brighton Line going to Manhattan around the Church Avenue Station. All 8 cars had this sign, dont know if it was a fluke or not, becasue it was
picking up passangers. This is what the sign said:
C Bedford Park Boulevard
Bronx
Special
is this just a goof from the signs itself, or this was going to be a C or just a new year's blunder? anyone know, please let me know."
It was your imagination.
N Broadway Express
January's "Transit Transit" show, showed the new R142 subway cars inside and out. Car #7216 was used. They also took you on a tour of the "new" East 180 Street Shop in the Bronx where the cars will be repaired. The show can be seen every Sat. in Jan. at 3:30 PM on WNYE Channel 25 here in New York.
I just watched it.....awesome show!!!! -Nick
Any way to see it outside of the NYC area? I don't suppose there are quicktime or realvideo copies anywhere?
01/01/00
If you live in Nassau County, Long Island, Transit Transit is seen on Channel 80 (public access) on Wednesday nights at 8:00PM. That's on Cablevision Woodbury.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIU!!
You can see Transit Transit every thursday at 6pm on BCAT
(Brooklyn Community Access Television)
Click here for Transit Transit's
--Mike
I haven't said anything nasty about Transit Transit in a couple of months. Maybe that's what's been depressing me. I haven't seen the show since I gave up Cablevision so that I could spend more time annoying people on SubTalk. The upbeat quality of the show made me sick ( actually sicker ). Like they would show footage of a baseball game between two units of the MTA. I was hoping to see a fight, or maybe one of the producers of Transit Transit get hit by a line drive. What did I get instead--- what a great big happy family we are. I don't want to see people smiling, I want to see them as miserable as I feel most of the time. That's my idea of an entertaining program.
heypaul,
I don't know what is bothering you, but perhaps you should go seek some help....spending time annoying us is helping nobody, including yourself. -Nick
01/08/2000
heypaul,
Nothing could make me sicker than that Oct or Nov installment of a real NYCT bus driver helping to ice a cake that was supposed to resemble a bus. Even the look on his face said "gee I wish I was somewhere else". But that's my opinion, not factual This months Transit Transit installment does make up for that debacle with the R-142's and vintage film of AB's being worked on.
Perhaps you shouldn't seek any help because it's too expensive and you can save money by reconncting to you cable supplier and install the TV set in your R-98 cab! But don't invite Ed Norton over to watch Captain Video, we all know how that turned out !!
Bill Newkirk
....install the TV set in your R-98 cab!
These would be rather interesting traction motors with cabs.
I was riding around in Coney Island taking some pictures. The Carousel was running on Surf Avenue, and I noticed some interesting similarities to the subway. It was a two man operation, with one man collecting fares and bringing people to the ride. The owner, who I've seen there a long time, controlled the movement of the carousel with a speed control looking very much like the controller on a subway car. I took a picture of it, but I didn't ask the man about it. They were busy, and I didn't want to bother them. He also strapped kids onto the horses and fed rings into the ring puller. When he started the carousel he rang the bell twice, and when it ended he hit it the bell once. Standing there listening to the carousel music and watching the kids and teenagers ride the horses put me in a very dreamy nostalgic mood.
I include a sound clip of something that I recorded about 15 - 20 years ago in Coney Island.
I'm a big fan of carousel music myself. If there were no rock and roll (and they're not making it like they used to) I would listen to Sousa marches and carousel music.
I suspect that those carousels use something like a type R controller in them.
And, if you want carousel music, why not try to find an old Wurlitzer automatic band? :) Yes, they're expensive (a few grand I think), but you can find themm, and you can still get music for them too I think. If you've ever seen one up close, and seen the insides, they're quite interesting. And all pneumatic too. They pop up at collectible and antique auctions every now and then, though Wurlitzer's jukeboxes (and electronic organs - I like Hammonds better though) are much more common (hot models recently are the 50's vintage 1700 to 2400 series).
I remember about 20 years back I saw a album of Carousel Music. It even had the Carousel Waltz by Richard Rogers. Maybe it is still in print
As a collector-operator who owns 2-1800`s 2-2300s`s and several AMI`s(i-200 and Continental) and alot of Seeburgs (V-VL-201_K-200and 222)I can tell you why they are scarce and getting priced out of reason,European and Japanese dealers. They work the amjor trade and collectable`s hows such as Chicagoland and pay top dollar for machines as they stand and promptly pack them up for shipment to their home countries where they are curios of a sort.
It has always annoyed me that these people want pieces of American culture but not any of our problems.
How's this?
Couldn't hear it.
That's a great site. Sarge! Thanks!
http://www.mybonbon.com
Jeff: It's great and it brings back so many warm and pleasant memories of my trips to Coney Island in the late 40's and early 50's. How can we keep this on our website so I can play it any time I want? Great job? How did you get it to music on this website? A work of art.
Great, but not enough percussion. Sounds more like circus then Merry go round
That must be the B&B Carousel. It's pretty hard to come by carousels with all-mechanical organs like that one.
When I've taken my kids to Coney in recent years I've let them take extra rides at $2 each a pop out of guilt for all the times I've hung around that organ listening for free.
Visit the two sites below for all your carousel needs...
--Mike (married to a carousel lover)
Mike--- How does the Coney Island Carousel rate in the Carousel World? There is a dreamy, time has stood still quality about it. It looks like it hasn't been messed with in years, and it seems to be run in the spirit of old times. It doesn't seem too touristy, but more like an old friend. Somehow I have the feeling that the Prospect Park Carousel is more touristy.
My apologies for being slightly off (topic,that is),
but in a way it is a form of electric mass transit. As I pointed out last week, it even has a mass transit like controller...It sort of is like a spur line off the subway.
Believe it or not, I think I recall reading somewhere that the man who hand-carved the original horses for the Prospect Park and Coney Island Carousels was the father of that actor who played 'Harry Mudd' on the old 'Star Trek' TV series.
heypaul: I'll try and track down the source of the above info.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm transcribing for my wife who's the real carousel expert in the family. She says...
"The Coney Island Carousel is a *real* carousel. It's too bad that the area around it is so seedy because it's tough to bring young kids to it, which is sad because this makes it harder for the next generation to grow up with the same love of carousels that my and my parents' generation had. But it is a beautiful carousel with an authentic patina from years of kiddie-butts that can't be duplicated by any modern plastic. Like the Velveteen Rabbit, this carousel is alive."
--Jeanine (via Mike)
Its only as seedy as you think it is.
The more people who bring their children to it the less seedy it will be. I'm white, Jewish, from the suburbs of Long Island and I bring my 3 year old son to Coney Island several times a year, by subway no less!!!
Yeh Jeff but you are a cop with a piece and a badge.
Like Yankee Stadium, Coney is a pretty safe place to be in season, no matter what you think of the neighborhood. I can lock my bike up on Surf Ave. and ride the Cyclone a few times w/o benefit of either a piece or a badge... Right now it's pretty desolate, unless you have a thing for guard dogs snapping at you behind fences. The beach is still gorgeous, though.
maybe this has been posted before, but this site is cool:
http://www.sfmunicentral.com/
This is the system that crashed and burned on the first day running...
ANYONE out there go to the times square Y 2 K 2000
new years party at times square ?????
if you did HOW WAS THE TRANSIT SERVICE ????
was it easy to get there on subway or bus and get out of there ?????????
here in los angeles we had Y 2 K 2000 new year events but
i stayed home !!! the myth of public transit los angeles ca.!!
and who wants to have your car TOWED AWAY ?????
I was there. Left around 12:40. I was impressed with the service - much more than last year. There appeared to be a lot of extra service. The 'F' I got was express in queens and there were R trains running, which was kind of a weird combo to see at that hour.
wonderful !! seehow blessed you are there with a GOOD transit
system !!!! and 24 hours in most places !!!!
Now if we can get the sunshine and palm trees. You can keep Jack Nicholson.
nea.... jack nicholson you can have him ill send him to you
on federal express overnight !!!!!!!!!
the palm trees were imported to us from spain and east asia
& africa so they are not native to southern california.
nevada arizona new mexico texas etc....
BUT...... HOWEVER can you send us some of your beautiful.....
....... REDBIRDS .... ( i working condition ) ..............
wait a minute send the WHOLE RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM .. !!!
then move here enjoy the IMPORTED PALM TREES !! ......
make sure you are at the airport when jack nicholson arrives!
01/02/00
SEND THE WHOLE TRANSIT SYSTEM ???
Do you really want the R-68's ?
You mean send the cars with the railfan windows !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill Newkirk
>>>make sure you are at the airport when jack nicholson arrives! <<<
Actually, Jack was in Queens about a year ago and stopped in one of the local liquor stores in Jamaica and bought a few bottles. I have the pictures to prove it.
I was there.
I was one of the many cops who worked it although I was actually in the upper 50's on Eighth Av (Not too close to Times Sq) and didn't see the ball. But it was an RDO so I made some nice O/T which I needed.
I was there for 24 hours.. From Midnight on 12/31 to midnight on 1/1. I used metro north, however, they check tickets before you board on New Years Day to keep people from sneaking on, and I am so used to the conductor waking me up, I missed my stop. No south bound trains were running, and I was broke, so I had to stay at the Beacon Station for 2 hours until the first southbound train came.
As far as NYCTA, I had just about the best seat in the house, 1 block away from the ball, and I did not use the subway, but I noticed police were not even letting transit workers go from the Times Sq. station to the 49th st. station, they were pretty pissed, because the 49th station is right in the middle of TSQ.
However, after spending 24hours there, I have to say It was one of the best experiences in my life
Fred
Don't know about Times Square, but here in Chicago, we had huge New Year's Eve celebrations at Navy Pier and in Grant Park at the Buckingham Fountain. The events at the Pier were pretty much all day long, and you could hardly move with the crowds! On the other hand, the Grant Park celebration was strictly a laser show leading up to the countdown (which was projected with lasers onto the side of the Amoco Building), followed by a very good (and long -- nearly a half-hour) fireworks show. Since the only pre-midnight attractions were the laser show, piped-in music, and the TV cameras (until about a minute to midnight, the crowd was fairly quiet -- except when the television cameras were aimed at them!) there were few people in the park until about 11PM, then crowds started appearing.
As to transit, CTA was definitely on the ball. One cent fare from 8PM Friday to 6AM Saturday (they do that every New Year's, not just this year). Bus routes that operate from Navy Pier directly to the commuter train stations west of the Loop usually run only at weekday rush-hours but were operated all day Friday to bring people to and from the Pier. (Metra usually runs its last trains around midnight, but they added trains up to 2:30pm and publicized the heck out of it with fliers on the trains for the last month, so that suburbanites would know they could ride the trains home and wouldn't drive in.) Had no problem catching buses on State Street headed to the Pier (about 7PM) or on Michigan when I headed from the Pier to Grant Park about 11PM. As I left the Pier, I saw a long line of buses idling, ready to move the crowds once the Navy Pier firework show ended. The subway home was absolutely packed, far beyond even rush-hour crowding, because once the fireworks in the park ended, the crowd left almost at once and made a beeline for the nearest L and subway stations. With the penny fare, the station agents just threw the gates open and the crowd moved down to the platform without blockages at the turnstiles. And I was pleasantly surprised when I got back to my car at the Cumberland park-and-ride that they weren't charging parking fees that night! No advance notice of any kind, and the garage at Cumberland is operated by a private firm, not CTA.
I was in Philadelphia for the NYE business. Did a little railfanning on the Blue (Market-Frankford) line. I LOVE the new Adtranz cars, with their unobstructed railfan SEATS (better than Baltimore's). Do they have the same cars on the Orange (Broad) line?
Also, will they EVER renovate Berks station? It looks absolutely miserable.
Those Adtranz cars have a great railfan seat,great pickup (they make an NJT Arrow look slow), and great brakes. But I hate them otherwise.
The stupid door announcements, the non opening window in front, and oh yes, by far the worst horn of any railcar in existance. Sounds like a loose fan belt. And they make funny noises too :)
I *still* think the old Budds were better (and I'm not really a Budd person)
I think that WMATA takes the cake for the stupidest door annoucements that I have seen (or should I say, heard).
WHILE the doors open, there is a women who says, "Doors opening..." Then, when you prepare to leave the station: "Doors closing. Ding-dong." It is only after both warnings that the doors will start to close--which can get rather tedious when they have to keep trying to close them.
I liked the way it was done about ten years ago--just a simple chime before the doors closed. Provided the same functionality, but wasn't as annoying.
My two cents. :-) --BWB
I don't believe all of the cars make the "doors opening" announcements. They do all do the chime and "doors closing". I have heard the "doors opening", but not on all cars.
At least the doors-closing chime comes before the doors start to close, unlike Philly, where you don't hear anything until they're almost closed. Wow - how useful...
dont go to ATLANTA!!! the beeping will dive you mad !!!
opening and closingg of the doors """ BEPING"" !!!!!!!
Even worse: the station announcements in Atlanta. :-)
"The next station is FIVE POINTS STATION. FIVE POINTS STATION is the next stop. For FIVE POINTS STATION, exit at the next stop."
Honestly, though, I seldom get the chance to ride the subways (I live in Memphis), so I actually enjoy every aspect of the ride, including the noises. It is interesting the different methods the systems use.
You mean the Phillidelphia subway doesn't do the chime until the doors are already in motion? That is borderline on useless.
--BWB
01/02/00
Blame this all on being A.D.A compliant. This is for the visually handicapped.
Bill Newkirk
I don't mind DC Metro's "doors opening"/"doors closing" announcements.
At least all the cars have door chimes that match now - they all sound just like those here in NYC, even on the 4000 Bredas. They got rid of the "ping-pong" chime that the Bredas originally had - tinny and annoying. Now it's uniform - both Rohr and Breda cars have the same module in them.
One thing I DO like about DC, and those who work the system here in NYC will probably disagree with me is the attendant announces which side the doors open on at every station. A typical announcement in DC goes "Metro Center, doors open (or opening) on the left side, transfer for the Red Line on the upper level". The riders seem to have gotten used to this additional piece of information.
Wayne
One thing I DO like about DC, and those who work the system here in NYC will probably disagree with me is the attendant announces which side the doors open on at every station. A typical announcement in DC goes "Metro Center, doors open (or opening) on the left side, transfer for the Red Line on the upper level". The riders seem to have gotten used to this additional piece of information.
Wayne
that is standard procedure in Miami. The announcement is made before the train enters the station and goes "Doors will open on the center platform" for island stations or "Doors will open on the platform side" for side platform stations. The line is 2-track. There is no express or skip stop service, and the only transfers are to Trirail and the metromover. Trirail is not a free transfer, but Metromover is. Metrorail costs $1.25 and Metromover is 25¢.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Maybe Philly should add which side doors are opening to their already
long announcements, and have bells instead of "doors are opening, and "doors are closing"
Chuck Greene
On the Broad Street Subway and PATCO the chime is before the doors close, but not on the Market Frankford. The Almond Joys had not way of telling you when the doors close. The BSS has a lound double chime, and PATCO sounds like a soft telephone ring. But at least on the Market Frankford they don't open and close the doors a lot, at one station once. When the doors close they close, not so on the BSS.
In my previous post I ran thru the string of announcements. Is there a chime on the Adrantz cars, also? I forget if there is???
Chuck Greene
No. The doors start closing and then the message says "Doors are Closing."
Of course, that is literally correct, since they have already started. Otherwise they would have to say "Doors are about to close"
Personally, I think a chime would be better.
At least the Baltimore sbway cars still have only the two-tone chime. But in the 1980s, the chime was a weird banjo-like sound (plink-plunk)! That was changed later on to the "traditional" doorbell, similar to WMATA trains.
If you wish to be driven mad, ride the "subway" at the Atlanta Airport. The last tiem I was there waiting for a transferring flight, I rode the line from one end to the other. The voice on the announcement sounds like the evil computer from "Colossus - The Forbin Project". AAAACK.
ATL airport trains:
"Please hold on--the train is accelerating..."
My favorite door closing signal sound was on the R1-9's. When you heard the conductor betwee cars bop the control down you knew the doors will soon close. And that bopper was loud.
I liked the R44 chimes best on OEM and late SIRTOA. The doorchime followed by a five or six second delay followed by the door operators closing. By the way, Mr. R40, how did you upload the chime to the subway.org site a few months back? I remember the link being posted to the board directly during the musical madness discussions of certain R46 cars.
I liked that too. The original WMATA recording when it said "Please stand clear of the door" (leaving out the please if the doors had already closed and the operator was reopening them) seemed to get louder and more annoying as it was repeated (not a suprise considering where the GM at that time went after leaving WMATA). Richard White, our current GM, replaced the "Please stand clear of the doors" with a friendlier recording by the same person which I like alot.
Another thing. That is not true. The doors start to close after the first chime or else the trains would be at the stations all day. The cars in NYC are even crazier. The chime starts after the doors close making the chime almost unecessary.
Oh, do they? I haven't been in WashDC since the summer, so you're probably right. But I remember hearing the lady talking, then both tones, and THEN the doors closing.
So they have kept changing what she says? Our family lived in WashDC about a decade ago, and I don't think there was a voice. Just the chimes. And when we went over the summer, it was a simple, "Doors closing..." What all kind of messages have they used?
I think PATCO takes the cake here - keeping it simple with the ringing bell. Many people think it gets annoying but it sure serves its purpose.
Only "Please stand clear of the doors. Thank you." People complained and said it sounded rude so they changed it. The doors opening and doors closing has remained the same.
I agree with you, Brandon. I lived in DC from 1989 to 1994, and back then there was no ridiculous voice telling you the doors were closing -- the chime was enough! The first time I was back for a visit and rode the Metro after they put in the voice, I was appalled.
OTOH, the new subway cars here in Stockholm can sound like this:
(ding-ding-dong) Nästa station, Slussen. Byte för trafikanter mot Norsborg och Fruängen, samt Saltsjöbanan och bussar till Nacka och Värmdö. Tänk på avståndet mellan vagn och plattform när du stiger av.
WHEW! This is an automated announcement. Translation:
(ding-ding-dong) Next station, Slussen. Change for trains to Norsborg and Fruängen, as well as Saltsjöbanan and buses to Nacka and Värmdö. Watch the gap between the car and the platform when you leave the train.
Once or twice, I have actually heard T/Os working the older stock make similar announcements at the same station (except for the last sentence). You gotta respect that! The working timetables say the T/Os are *supposed* to say all this stuff, but very few actually do.
-- Tim
No, they run older Kawasaki cars on the Orange line. The Kawasakis are nice - very, very fast, and they are modern with door chimes, etc. The Orange line cars are wider, longer, and I think even have a different loading guage. They also have four-track express on the Orange line.
I believe Berks is scheduled to be renovated, similar to the rest of the northeast el.
No, they run older Kawasaki cars on the Orange line. The Kawasakis are nice - very, very fast, and they are modern with door chimes, etc. The Orange line cars are wider, longer, and I think even have a different loading guage. They also have four-track express on the Orange line.
I haven't been to Philly since the 1970's, but gauges don't change. The BSS uses 10' wide cars on the same gauge track as NY's. I don't know how wide the MFSE cars or the track gauge, but I believe it's narrower. The old Broad St. cars were similar in dimentions to the BMT Standards. Back in the 1970's, Philadelphia was a railfan's paradise. Old 67' cars with bull and pinion spur cut gears from the 1930's on the BSS. Almond Joy Budd cars from 1960 on the MFSE, PCC's, Trackless Trolleys, Bullet Cars on the Norristown Line. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Philadelphia was so nice!.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's why I love Philly!. You are right , the sound the old Broad St. cars made was wonderful. Oh, and the long announcements on the Adrantz MFSE cars....."56st St. Station, Doors are opening, Frankford train making all stops, doors are closing, next station 52nd st. for the 31 & the 52. ARggghhhhh. The only nice thing is the voice is of a woman. Sources say she rode the line the first week and she was a "knockout"... Love that railfan window!
Chuck Greene
Track gauge for the MFL is 5' 2 1/4"
Subway Steve's SEPTA Page
*sigh* I tried to get them to take the old Broad cars out for a spin,
but they aren't up to putting the many $1,000's of dollars into them
to get them back up to operating standards. I see the poor things
every day as my R3 passes through Fern Rock. What can you do, eh?
Berks, Huntingdon and Church, the three 'forgotten' stations, are going to be rehabbed in a single package that is now in design. Don't know what the construction schedule is.
Obviously there was thought to closing each of these stops but that is no longer being considered. It will be interesting to see if Church NB becomes more than the 'exit only' station that it currently is, with NB riders directed to the two bus routes on Frankford Ave (3 and 5).
Market is broad, and Broad is standard.
Can anyone explain this picture. It even looks like the train is in service.
I'm stumped ...
According to the caption on that picture, it was shot during a fantrip on Nov. 27th, 1976. The 'passengers' are your fellow railfans.
According to the caption on that picture, it was shot during a fantrip on Nov. 27th, 1976. The 'passengers' are your fellow railfans.
It was the ERA IRT 70th Anniversary Fan Trip which occurred on Sun. 10/27/1974. The trip used the Museum Lo-V and a train of R-36's, to denote the old and the new for the IRT's 70th Anniversay. We took these IRT trains all over the system, A-Division and B-Division.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
OK,that makes some sense. From the picture, it looked like the train was in service.
After seeing that picture I went to the page with all the pictures of that fan trip. There were a couple of pix of the "J" Line, Alabama Av & Sutphin Blvd. On all three pictures (57th, Alabama, & Sutphin) there didn't seem to be much of a gap between train & platform. The average gaps on the LIRR seem much bigger. Yet I thought that was the reason IRT cars can never run on BMT/IND. (Other than the red-light trippers)
The IRT cars are only 12" narrower than BMT/IND cars, so the gap would only be 6" wider than normal. Even at that, it would be about 4 times as large as the gap with a BMT/IND car (normally about 2-3"). While it's unlikely someone could fall through it, it still poses a significant hazzard for tripping, etc. That is the reason that the BMT used gate cars on the Myrtle and Lexingon Ave. lines well into the 1950s. The needed to operate both on old El lines which were restricted to the 9' wide cars, as well as on sections shared with 10' wide subway trains. The presence of conductors at each gate helped them watch passengers and remind them to 'watch the gap'.
-- Ed Sachs
Doesn't the "7" use the BMT tracks from Queensborough Plaza to get to the Coney Isand yards?
Sorry, strike my last post. I didn't realize it was the IND 57th Street station!!!
If it was an R33 at 57/7th, I wouldn't have thought it was weird, just another car being moved to the CI yard.
Hey Chris, if that one stumped you how 'bout the same car at Alabama Av??
Well, the white people on the station platform makes it undeniably a fantrip.
While I know its a fan trip there is a big transit bus garage right across the street from the Alabama Av station which could attract passengers of all races.
Perhaps in 1976. But today, even that wouldn't draw people of the caucasian persuasion to get off the J at Alabama Ave.
Actually Chris, if you go a couple of blocks away to the ENY LIRR station during the PM rush you would notice the riders to be predominately white.
Well yeah. If you look at all the people who transfer from one train to another at Bway/East NY, a sizeable portion are white. But if you look at the people who actually exit the station there, you'd be hard pressed to find any of my persuasion.
I got off the #3 at Junius and walked over to the "L" at Livonia. No problem. I will qualify it thus: a) it was 3:50PM on a weekday afternoon b) I was not alone. Did I see others of my ilk? No. Was I afraid? No.
Nice houses along that stretch - with trees and gardens, all well-maintained.
Wayne
Yes, that neighborhood looks much better than it did 10 years ago with the new houses. Much much better than high rise housing projects.
Thank you Ghris and Wayne for the complement of my neighborhood. Dont be a stranger now........
3TM
Thank you Chris and Wayne for the complement of my neighborhood. Dont be a stranger now........
3TM
Something odd...Where's the Identra antenna?
-Hank
01/02/00
"Something odd..Where's the identra antenna ?"
That's needed on the Flushing line only, (Flushing Expresses).
Bill Newkirk
Right, but why remove it for a fantrip? And where's the bracket?
Besides, Identra doesn't work anymore.
-Hank
Identra?? what was that???
Identra?? what was that???
It was that doughnut-shaped antenna on the front of the R-36's. Identra was a system that was only used on the Flushing Line. I think it had something to do with the signal system.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It was that doughnut-shaped antenna
Also known as a toilet seat.
--Mark
It was that doughnut-shaped antenna
Also known as a toilet seat.
--Mark
On this forum was the first time I heard of the Identra "doughnut" referred to as a "toilet seat". Was this official TA slang lingo?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/04/2000
Don't know about that. But the single seat on the BMT Standards opposite the motormans cab was also nicknamed the toilet seat.
Bill Newkirk
Don't know about that. But the single seat on the BMT Standards opposite the motormans cab was also nicknamed the toilet seat.
Bill Newkirk
I don't remember hearing that, but yes, it does resemble a toilet seat. Its just one seat alone.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What's an identra antenna?
01/03/00
The "Identra" antenna commonly nicknamed the "toilet seat" hangs on a bracket on the Flushing R-33/36 cars right by the motormans windshield. The Flushing Express used this antenna, after leaving Queensboro Plaza, the train would pass before a sensor which is aligned with the Identra antenna which automatically throws the switch for the Express track. I am not sure what happens next after the Express passes. I assume that the switch automatically lined for the locals. This system I believe worked in the opposite direction when the Express passed 33rd-Lowery. This would line the Express to merge with the local for the approach to Queensboro Plaza. Think of it as a silent towerman. I am not sure if it is still used today. Anything mistakes in my post, be free to correct me.
Bill Newkirk
I always wondered what those brackets were on the front of those Worlds Fair cars...thanks!
Although I've seen it close up several times as I occasionally get the "J" at Bway Junction after getting off the LIRR @ ENY I finally used the new crossover at Bway Junction yesterday changing from the "J" to the "L". It just didn't seem as convenient as the old cross under. It is definitely further, and you have a longer walk even to the Canarsie bound side. (Where you don't have to cross) Even though its not that much longer any increase is bad when you're running through a large crowd trying to make a train. They should have left well enough alone. (Unless it was for structural reasons)
As strange as this sounds, at about 11PM tonight, or rather last night, I entered the 6th Avenue 'L" Station. I was going to take the L train three stops home. As I peered down the tunnel to Eigth Avenue, I saw an unfamiliar car on the track. As it rolled into Sixth Avenue Station, it was most obviously different from the Slant R40's and R42's that are usually trudging up and down the Canarsie Line. I rode it all the way to Montrose Avenue to stare at the newer feature of the R68, eg the seats. Strange, huh? Could this be a new TA plan to replace the R40's with R68'S?
You should have written down the car numbers & counted the number of cars in the consist. Virtually all R68/68A are 4 car married units: 300' of 600'. It wouldn't work on the L.
I know it sounds strange...the only other R68 cars I have seen were on the N,R and B. Mr. Whitehorne, (Mr. Canarsie Line!) have you ever seen or heard of this (R68 on Canarsie Line)?????
I have seen naught but R40, R40M and R42 on the Canarsie Line in the last several years. There ARE still R68 which are NOT linked into four-car sets; I have seen these on the "D" as lately as December 11th. Perhaps this was a six-car set of one of these. How it got there is also a mystery - it would have to have traversed the entire Eastern Division to get to the "L" line. Still, I have no reason to disbelieve the observer.
Wayne
It could have been a test of some sort and not a revenue train.
He said he rode on it! It could have been 4 linked units + 2 Franklin singles, perhaps the Alsthom cars ("N" bunch).
I swear I saw a non-linked "D" on December 11th but I stand corrected - it was on my November 8th trip with Simon Billis we saw them. I looked at the wrong page in my notebook.
Bubbly? The sum total of all the spirits consumed by myself is -0-, which matches my BAC. 4 years 8 months and counting.
Wayne
I know I was tired, but I also know what I saw. Didn't look at any car but first. Damn, I wish I wrote down the car #'s!!!!
The full-width cabs on the A end would have been a dead giveaway. I'm curious about a couple of things:
1. Did that train make it through the twists and curves between Lorimer St. and DeKalb without sideswiping a tunnel wall?
2. Was it really huffing and puffing on the uphill run through the river tunnel? If the BMT standards struggled, and they would drop down to B below middle C, well....
Too bad you didn't have the camera with u at the time. Cause I really find it hard to believe L would get any R68/68A. Not that I wouldn't belive what u saw. L on the R68 is strange. As a subway rider I know that R68 are always used by the D N B(since 97) and now alos used on the Q and W and few on diamond Q.
It's a TWO-YEAR OLD POST...look at the date....
"posted by Matt Levine on Sun Jan 2 23:54:19 2000. "
N bunch? As in the N has different 68s from the rest of the system?
There are just 9 R-68s not linked into 4-car units. They are assigned to duty on the Franklin Shuttle only. There are no un-linked R-68s on the D line for about 1 month now. As for R-68s on the L line, I know of no test nor was any G.O. issued calling for their operation in the east. Perhaps a bit too much of the Millenium bubbly?
They didn't move the R-110B over to the L for some reason, did they? At 67 feet, we know they could fit on the Eastern Division.
Anything is possible, I suppose but the R-110B is assigned to 207th St. Moving the R-110B to the L line would mean either a G.O. or a change of fleet assignment. I likely would have heard about either - and I didn't.
Seriously, maybe I'm seeing things.
Steve, a question:
Even though the R110Bs are 67 feet, doesn't the placement of trucks keep them from running out in the east? I really don't understand why the designers of the R143 couldn't keep the 67 foot design.
-Stef
The two main reasons are more doors per train and so passengers can move between cars. Perhaps the design mistake in the 110's also prompted them to eliminate longer cars altogether.
I don't know either. 67' cars ran out east before the TA was the TA. The decision to go back to 60 foot cars was never clearly explained. The best I can think of is that it had to do with train length. 8 60-foot cars are 480 feet. If we went to 67' cars 6 cars would be 402' and 8 would be 536'. Running 7 car trains would have been too confusing and would have added costs because we'd need both 3-car and 4-car sets.
Truck placement could have something to do with it. The trucks on the BMT standards were, IIRC, 47 feet apart from their centerlines, which meant they were further away from the ends of the cars than trucks on other cars. Their couplers were on what amounted to be extension rods - kind of what my American Flyer Alco A units have on their front ends.
LOL, I was a little bit crazy that night, but I believe I did see R68's on the L.
Here's another thought: did you hear door chimes? None of the 60-footers currently running over there have them. I'll say this much: at least they're in tune on the R-68s.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Haven't touched base with you for some time; glad to share a moment with the guy who gave me my nickname. How in hell do you know of the R68's on the Conarsie line? You live in Colorado. Is there some publication that keeps you abreast of the current workings of the NYC subway system, or do you have a pal in Gotham giving you the word. I'm always getting info late because I'm in California. Clue me in.
Check out the post at the beginning of this thread.
There are no R-68's on the R Line, where you coming from?
Dude, the post you're responding to is TWO YEARS OLD!!! Are we time-warping again???!!!
I think he has too much time on his hands to respond with one (useless) line to a post 2 years ago and done with.
I only figured out it was a 2-year post when I saw Defy Reason posting in the thread.
i would havee to take a look for myself if it is still around........
3TM
01/02/00
Does anybody know of any dispatchers on this line who may verify this?
Bill Newkirk
How would an even R-68 get to the L without anyone noticing? The only line the L connects to is the Nassau BMT and R-68's can't even run on that line(or was that problem fixed with the Willy B reconstruction?)!
Do they keep R-68's at ENY or even Canarsie Yards?
How would an R-68 even get to the L without anyone
noticing? The only line the L connects to is the
Nassau BMT and R-68's can't even run on that line(or
was that problem fixed with the Willy B
reconstruction?)!
Do they keep R-68's at ENY or even Canarsie Yards?
Yeah, it looks like it was fixed.
So why not put some 75 footers on the line some time in the future?
Wouldn't it be a nice surprise to find a train of R-68's rolling in Bway Junction(actually it wouldn't. Would you want to ride one of those through the S curve! I don't even want to think about that!)
I recall about 1980 or so seeing two trains of R-46s pass through Broadway-Myrtle on a clearance run (probably on a Sunday). They were deadheads and carried "E" signs, since that's where they were assigned then.
A motorman then told me that there were only 2 places 75 foot cars couldnt run on the BMT Eastern Div - the S curves on the WillyB (Sideswipe problems, but only with other 75'ers) and 2 tracks in ENY yard. Of course, I have no way of verifying this, but I can verify that 75 foot cars were once tested out there.
I also believe that the ERA ran a trip with the Bicentennial R-46s on or about 1976, and that it ran out on the Eastern Div. But that's a bit before my time as an active railfan so I'm not positive.
There was a picture of it as proof on this board a few months ago.
I was not tired, nor drunk, nor acting silly, BUT I DID RIDE THE R-110B on the L tonight, rather last night at about 9:00pm heading into Manhattan, it was only a 6 car set. I presume the same 6 car set that runs on the 1006 and the 1343 out of 168th on the C, THE ONLY SIX CAR SET, I don't know about and R68s, but THAT WAS PURE R-11B THAT I WAS ON TONIGHT AND SHE PERFORMED BEAUTIFULLY! Never got into Manhattan so fast from Canarsie!
Trevor
Well--- after a week of speculations here on SubTalk on the issue of Matt's seeing a URO (Unidentified Rolling Object) on the L--- it has taken our comrade from BusTalk to actually confirm the presence of the R110B as the mysterious train. My congratulations to Trevor for being out there and riding what many of us have just been speculating about.
Great scoop!!
Sixty-seven footers back on the Eastern Division for the first time in 31 years.
I wouldn't be surprised if the L becomes the R-110B's permanent home, pending the arrival of the R-143s a few years from now.
Well the R143 is due to arrive in 2001-2002 and this is not the first time that the R110Bs ran on the Eastern Division, I once caught the R-110Bs on the "Z" line, so its really not a oddity that I caught the R110Bs on the "L" Lines, just one hell of a surprise!
Trevor
The R110 on the "Z"? I don't want to sound like a know it all, but I doubt this. I know the J line, and had they run those cars right past my house, I'd have known.
Well being at 67 ft. per car, the L can definitely use the R110B's there. With its consist, those can definitely fit at the length of the station perfectly. I did not know that they had an L in its roll sign. Did the strip maps have the L route on it, and was the computerized announcements running on it?
How does an R68 equate with a R110B? Are you using taboid headlines to get people to read your posts???
Have you noticed the post you are replying to is a two and a half years old?
-Hank
Ouch! Hit me with the reverse key, didn't see the date tag. Thanks!
I work for Car Equipment, my records show R-110's were never in revenue service on the Eastern Division (J, L, M or Z). The R-110B's were only used there for clearence and power testing.
Now I have to go to Livonia to see if I catch a 110B AND a 142 in action!!!!!!!!
3TM
Are you postively sure? It had forward backwards seats? It sounds too warped to believe. Anyone got any pictures of this. Btw were the automatic annoucements working or was the C/R doing it manually. Were the strip maps setup correctly or did they have the "A" Strip Maps. Was the Train signed correctly as a "L" train.
just inquiring,
Adam
The post you are responding to is 2 and a 1/2 years old.
Peace,
ANDEE
What became of this?????
Were 68s or 110Bs running on the L in 2000????
This is interesting. Are you sure that R-68s ran on the Canarsie Line in 2000?
#3 West End Jeff
No, but I'm 100% sure they DIDN'T.
David
Even though I'm responding to a two-year-old post, it's completely impossible....first off, how would they get to the Canarsie Line?
The only way to get on that line would be if the R-68's came from Coney Island, to the Jamaica Line, which is completely impossible. Even if, and this is a BIG if, they came through the Chrystie St. connection, they would STILL have to use the Jamaica Line to get to Broadway Junction.
The Eastern Division CANNOT handle 75 foot cars...period.
Now, maybe this thread can die a peaceful death.
Some of these threads are like the Flying Dutchman, I swear to God.
Hopefully this thread will die a peaceful death, alnog with the idea that R-68s operated on the Canarsie Line.
#3 West End Jeff
If an R68 actually did operate on the Canarsie Line, I doubt it had a peaceful death (assuming it didn't make it all the way to Manhattan from Canarsie).
I read the original responses in which Trevor said he rode the "R68"s and said it was the 6 car set of R110Bs...
"The only way to get on that line would be if the R-68's came from Coney Island, to the Jamaica Line, which is completely impossible."
Or they could come in on the LIRR tracks, (might need a diesel to pull them but...)
Anyway that's *my* story, and I'm sticking to it.
Elias
if you guys think that was strange, I rode this consist home on Friday night on the N:
5056-5055-5053-5054-2502-2503-2501-2500
I rode 2502. I also thought that R68 and R68As do not work properly together. From what I saw there were no problems.
#2502 N Broadway Local
There is no prohibition about mixing R-68 and R-68A equipment in the same consist. The R-68As use WABCO brake equipment. whime the R-68 use NYAB. While Car Equipment Engineering never had concerns about the compatibility of both systems, they felt that the two did not have exactly the same operating characteristics and mixing the two would result in a less smooth ride.
However, Jamaica Shop used R-33 Phase I (WABCO) and R-32 Phase II (NYAB together in mixed consists with no problem. Therefore, I see no reason why any special flags should be raised due to the odd pairing.
Wasn't there an issue with running R-40Ms and R-42s overhauled by M-K and Coney Island in the same consist?
Hmm strange that in the R68-A set, the even numbered cars are higher
than the odds, I always thought it was the other way around in R-68/R68-A (and for that matter R-44 and R-46) consists.
In the R-44, R-46, and R-68 series, the series started with an even car, so the four-car sets are numbered even-odd-odd-even, with the odd car numbered one higher than the even car it's attached to -- example: 2500-2501-2503-2502. In the R-68A series, however, the series started with an odd car (5001), so things are a little different: the odd car is numbered one LOWER than the even car it's attached to -- example: 5002-5001-5003-5004.
One difference is that the R68 has an odd amount of cars (425) and the rest with an even number, so some R68's which are on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle have the odd number at 9 to make up the odd difference.
Correct -- and the 9 Franklin Avenue Shuttle cars are still single units, which is why I was careful in my description to say that I was referring to the FOUR-CAR UNITS.
David
i doubt it very much that it was an R68.those trains cant fit on the L line since they're 75 feet long.it must've been an R143 on its last trip of the day.an R68 on the L is really hard to believe
The R143's weren't around 2 years ago (where this thread came from). It seems like it was just a nonsense thread (like it is now), and a lot of threads lately have been.
Yeah, GP38...somebody's doin' 'the Time Warp' again. Besides the whole issue should be rendered moot since 75 foot cars couldn't negotiate the turns on the Canarsie Line...
After reading throught the old post, it looks like the original poster was on a R110B, he just called it an R68. Today that would sound bizarre, but since the original "time warped" post was from 2 years ago, it sounds like the answer.
I think we went over it, it was complete B.S. There are no R110B conductor boards for it to be in service.
So it was a total nonsense thread, even back then.
How did a poster who posted in the beginning of the year 2000 be posted on the site now? I see two sets of responses are made in that year, and the majority is made in 2002.
Did Dave bring this post from the archives for some reason or other?
Didn't we already discuss this?
Have you tried going into the Archives link on the Subtalk page (now part of Change Display Style & Search)?
Old maps of Bay Ridge, where I was born, show a railroad traveling in a general west to east direction approximately where 95th Street is now called the Bay Ridge and Lakeshore Railroad. Apparently it existed simultaneously with the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch 30 blocks to the north.
Does anyone know any more details about this railroad? What years was it in operation?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think that railroad was proposed but never built.
Kevin, your mentioning of this Bay Ridge west to east configured railroad rang a bell in my head. It sounded similar to something I read in Wm. Fausser's book on the old Canarsie Line. So, I pulled it off the bookself, and guess what I found? A hand drawn map showing the Brooklyn & Rockaway Beach RR with a planned connection to a railroad that was never built called the Bay Ridge and Seashore Railroad. I'd bet this is the same as Bay Ridge and Lakeshore RR. Fausser's drawing is dated 1873. The proposed Bay Ridge & Seashore -- apparently coming from the west -- would meet up with the B&RB just south of Flatlands Ave., with one arm turning north to run along the Canarsie Line toward East New York and another arm swinging south to allow travelers to head to the Canarsie shore.
This is probably the same proposed railroad.
Doug aka BMTman
I imagine it was planned but not built. No trace of any trackage or ROW exists in the area, and that's unusual...since most railroads leave their spoor long after they've departed the scene (cf. the Kissena Corridor), although the LIRR Whitestone Branch has been unrelentingly wiped out except for a bit of track where it met the PW Branch.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Seems now a days the city in general is in a down spiral. I read the post on FLushing and going out to the city on weekends I agree somewhat. You people say that the proplems are with asian youths.
I could see in the city mainly in the poor neighborhoods that the problems are social and cant be blamed on a specific group of people.
The NYPD is full of white corrupted cops. They take brides like back in the old days. Rudy dont give a shit because he most likly gats some of of the profits. Anyway the city is full of liberals and if you are some super conservative republican and cant face the changes of people, society or the fact that young people are getting richer then I advice you move to some small hillbilly white racist conservative town upstate. The city IS different and the problem from what I heard is too much white conserative talk and thinking.
Please resend your message. It came through hopelessly garbled.
And stop self-medicating yourself.
Another NYC public school grauduate struggling his way through the alphabet. Back to Creedmor for you.
Or perhaps a John Rocker wannabe?
"Seems now a days the city in general is in a down spiral. I read the post on FLushing and going out to the city on weekends I agree somewhat. You people say that the proplems are with asian youths.
I could see in the city mainly in the poor neighborhoods that the problems are social and cant be blamed on a specific group of people.
The NYPD is full of white corrupted cops. They take brides like back in the old days. Rudy dont give a shit because he most likly gats some of of the profits. Anyway the city is full of liberals and if you are some super conservative republican and cant face the changes of people, society or the fact that young people are getting richer then I advice you move to some small hillbilly white racist conservative town upstate. The city IS different and the problem from what I heard is too much white conserative talk and thinking."
I agree with this post from Greg. Thanks for bring this issue out on Subway Talk.
An Asian Youth.
"I agree with this post from Greg. Thanks for bring this issue out on Subway Talk.
An Asian Youth. "
You mean, Thanks for bringING, not Thanks for bring. Also we're on Sub Talk, not Subway talk. Apparently, Greg must've dictated this response for you to post.
Unless, of course, "An Asian Youth" isn't your real name!? Could that be you Greg? Multiple personalities and all of them lacking language skills? Ouch!
01/02/00
Great detective work Alan !!
Bill Newkirk
The city is not yet in a downward spiral, but I fear that some day it could be unless three grave problems are addressed ASAP - Medicaid spending, excess unionization, and rent control.
[The city is not yet in a downward spiral, but I fear that some day it could be unless three grave problems are addressed ASAP - Medicaid spending, excess unionization, and rent control.]
I hate to say it, but I think it will spiral again, once the national economy cools. We aren't keeping up with national growth--what will happen when we have a recession? And I doubt that the next mayor will have anything like Giuliani's toughness.
"The NYPD is full of white corrupted cops. They take brides like back in the old days."
Only the male cops take brides like in the old days. The females take grooms!!!
WHAT ABOUT GAY COPS WHAT DO THEY TAKE????
plungers!!!! :-o
While looking at the commuter railroad photo section, I came across a photo of an old New Haven electric locomotive that on first glance looked like a Chicago & South Shore Railroad Little Joe Electric! I know that this could not be, because the Little Joes were strictly D.C. powered, and the New Have lines were 11,000 volt A.C. only.
I looked through the second edition of the Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out about it, but could not find it. The photo was from the collection of Dave Pirmann, so if you are out there, give me some enlightenment. By the way, was the voltage and cycle change that was to have occurred on the North East Corridor lines finally happen? It was supposed to go from 11,000 volts, 25 cycles to 11,000 volts, 60 cycles. This change is what finally may have driven the GG-1 electrics from service and is the reason why I do not think that there will be any fan trips featuring them ever again.
Sounds like it may be an EP-5 Jet.
No, not an EP-5 "Jet". He's probably referring to the EF3's (150's)and EP4's (350's), which looked very much alike each other, AND had a very similar carbody to the South Shore "Little Joe" electrics.
They were painted in the old green/yellow schemes; none ever made it to the McGinnis red/white/black schemes.
The only New Haven RR electric locomotive that looked close to the South Shore "Little Joe's" were the EP-4's and EF-3's. There were six EP-4's numbered in the 0361-0366 which were built by GE in 1938. The EF-3's were 10 in number and were #'s 0150-0159 also built be GE in 1942. The EP-4's were passenger locomotives, equipped with Steam heat and 3rd rail shoes. The EF-3's were primarily freight loco's but were used sporadically in New Haven-Penn Sation trains over Hell Gate Bridge.All were gone by the mid-sixties, due to MacGuiness's desire to do away with electirc locomotives
/*All were gone by the mid-sixties, due to MacGuiness's desire to do away with electirc locomotives */
Which wasn't very sucessful (thankfully). Didn't he ultimately end up in jail a few years after being booted from the New Haven?
Actually, they DID de-wire Danbury (and a few others?), but rewired to somewhere else in with the old danbury wires. Interestingly, a lot of NH's equipement was rectifier at the time, and concievably they could have made a jump to 60hz operation (which would have likely saved them a LOT - Cos Cob never realy did do a good job at generating power).
Just because it's from my collection doesn't mean I have any more info about it than what was posted. I buy slide collections. It's possible the captions are wrong (or, on many of the slides in my collection, simply non-existant).
You're looking at an EP-4 if it's passenger, or EF-3 if it's frieght. Both were streamlined AC motors built around WWII, the EP-4 can also run on third rail. The EP-5 looks like two C-liners cut in half and stuck back to back, with a big box on top...
As for the NEC, the power belown NY Penn is, and always was, 11kv 25hz. Amtrak's been talking about going to 25kv for a few decades now. Above NY, it's 12.5kv 60hz, and on Metro-North, it's 12.5kv 60hz (converted 1983), but reaches as high as 15kv. NJT's Hoboken stuff is 25kv, as is the new Boston stuff.
The real reason the GG-1s were retired had nothing to do with voltage changes or PCBs (until recently, some metro-north trains had them, and lots of stationary transformers do too), but the fact their trucks were quite litterally falling apart by that time. Realize that all of them had a few milion miles of service, and salt, corrosion, snow, rain, dirt, etc, do take their toll. If anyone wanted to run a GG-1 again, they'd either need to find a set of trucks that weren't falling apart (fat chance), or cast new ones (fatter chance). Not to mention find all the electrical gear, pump out, clean, and probbly rewind the main transformer, etc, and do a heck of a lot of other work. not gonna happen, unless Bill Gates is a railfan...
Most, if not all, preserved GG-1s have had their main transformers removed due to concerns about the PCB's
Actually, it's been reported that Gates IS a railfan. On at least one occasion, maybe more, he's chartered some of Glen Monhart's equipment for rare-mileage vacation trips out west. Railfan carried a couple of photos a year or so ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, maybe he's an electric railfan too?
One could hope....
Isn t there still 1 GGI that has ben used on railfan trips somewher in Jersey?
There is one preserved but it is no longer operational. It's in sadly deteriorating shape, parked by the NJT shops in Hoboken.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could you imagine the possiblites?
If Bill Gates was running things he probably could automate systems with his computer knowledge and run the subways for a profit. (Does anyone know if PATCO ever ran at a profit)
Yeah, but then the MTA'd need to hire a guy full time to hit ctrl-alt-del everytime the computer crashed!
Yeah, but then the MTA'd need to hire a guy full time to hit ctrl-alt-del everytime the computer crashed!
A chimp can do that!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thanks for the insight on what kind of power is being used on the North East Corridor. How do the locomotives make the transition from 11kv, 25 hz to 12kv, 60 hz during a run from say Trenton to New Haven? I could never figure that one out. What was the catenary at Hoboken running at in the past? I heard that it was direct current, and when the change was made to AC, that was when the older type equipment was retired. Can the current equipment on the Hoboken lines make the interchange to the North East Corridor? These are some things that a railfan like me would like to know. Also, is there any chance that the NJT line to Bay Head Junction would get extended to Atlantic City? With the cash rolling in from the casinos, one would think that someone in Trenton would get the idea and look into it. I understand that the line made it as far south as Tom's River? Please correct me if I am wrong.
I, in one of my famous
drawing-on-maps-to-pass-the-time events, made a
fantasy line for the IRT. What do you think of this
one?
IRT 8, Lexington/East Side
local
Flatbush Ave, Bklyn to Bell Blvd, Queens via
Lexington Ave and Northern Blvd
New stations are:
(along Manhattan's 82nd Street)1st/2nd Aves
Roosevelt Island
(Queens via Broadway and Northern Blvd)21st St
31st St
Steinway St
(running under Queens Blvd IND)46th St
Northern Blvd
62nd St
74th St
83rd St
89th St
94th St
102nd St
108th St
114th St
Shea Stadium
Main St
Parsons Blvd
150th St
158th St
164th St
169th St
Utopia Pkwy
Francis Lewis Blvd
205th St
Bell Blvd
Two track subway the whole way.
It's fun to create the impossible.
Subway Steve's Homepage
hey I made up a G line extension from Court Sq along Northrn Blvd. Ive posted it here once before.......
3TM
How about extending it to Little Neck Pkwy the east most bus line connection in Queens?
That is exactly where my extension ended. I will post the list later.......
3TM
Too close to the "7"!
Too close to the "7" and the Port Washington Line. 3 lines just a few blocks from each other is a little too much when there's alot of areas with no lines!!
The same holds true in parts of Manhattan(subways under 6th, 7th and 8th Aves) but I guess it's actually needed there for obvious reasons.
Subway Steve's Homepage
I see that there will be no service from Franklin to Flatbush. What are they doing down there?
3TM
Did anyone else see the Redbird signed as a 1 train operating on New Year's Eve? I passed it as it was heading north at 168. It left me wondering what was going on or if I was seeing things ( was already kind of nervous, since it was my first trip down the road operating by myself).
Congradulations! I remember my first day. December of 1988, I had hit the road for my first time with a train of ceiling fanned R40s on the N line over the bridge. How time has gone by. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of marker lighted cars on the Broadway Local. I'd like to hear the complaints from the conductor and more likely, the dismayed passengers. I heard from a TSS that there was several trains parked on 4 track at Times Square as extra trains northbound from the shuttle. The crossover platform was removed to allow the putins from Grand Central to stop at 50th Street.
My first day was in September of 1988. My first day was on the No.2 Line and started out of Flatbush. That first run Uptown seemed like it taken forever to get to E 241 Street. I entered the stations so slow the people on the Platforms steped foward as I came in. Now ofcause when I come in they take a step back. But I mainly broke in on the No.4 Line. They alway gave me a job on that line. At least 4 out of the 5 Days. Now since I have some time under me I stick with the No.1,5,6 Lines. I don't think I'll pick on the No.2 Line again since theres too much in and out Jobs. Last pick I have a Saturday job over there that looked good on paper but in reality it wasn't that good.
There where lots of Redbirds running as GAP Trains Friday mostly from the No.2 Line.
Good luck on your Promotion thats a good way to start off the New Year. Maybe I'll see you around at Pelham Someday.
How do you tell a scheduled #2 from a gap train of redbirds?
-Hank
You can tell by the car Numbers or Black strips. Most of the Gap trains I noticed where from the No.2 Line. Also a GAP train is on stand by for when it is needed to pick up the big crowds in any major event. Like at Times SQ when the crowds picked up and there when too many people for the Scheduled trains to handle out comes the Gap train with 10 Empty cars to pick up the load.
Speaking of gap trains, an R26 (from a #5 gap train) got assaulted by youths with spray cans. It ran light northbound to the yard. It's always incredible how these things happen. What do you think? Were the folks were having a party on the train? A sign if stupidity, perhaps....
-Stef
That comes as no suprise. It may have been there idea of having fun. Its a shame in a way that people lose a train on the acount of a few Youths. On Saturday A Southbound No.2 Train was taking out of Service at Simpson Street do to Youths messing around with the Doors in the Last car. My guess is they either messed around gravity Latches and Torggle Swiches. The Conductor couldn't over come the problem so Control ordered the Train Out of Service. The Crew behind him which was a No.5 Out of Dyre was ordered to stop and stay at Freeman but keeped going and called control asking promision to Key by signals into Simpson Street even with Control Yelling over the Radio "You have a Train ahead you". I heard him on the radio still asking permision after the 10th time control told him No. But then Control Center did a very supid thing. They gave him promission to key by and put a door in the station to let people out. Anyone whos been to Simpson street Knows that can not be done since theres no room to play with.
At the north end of the southbound platform????? EEK! That's a spot even I don't go to - very little margin for error there. Blind, TIGHT curve round a building (with 10MPH speed limit) and BAM, you're in the station. What were they thinking?
Wayne
Yes that was a very bad move on there part. There Lucky there was no accident. As you know on the IRT at most stations you got no room to play with.
I saw it also. I was on the downtown 1 and passed it at 116 street at around 1:30 AM. I guess I was just one or two trains ahead of you.
Too bad I couldn't have been a passenger on your first run. Congratulations.
Chuck
I would have greeted that train with my usual "hello, Redbirds" greeting.
My first day was on the D out of Brighton Beach in May 1981 with an R32. I went north on the Concourse Express. I almost hit a homeball/timer south of 161 St. On the second trip up, I had a 6 car R42. Had low battery power. A few times I had to hit the bypass to get it going. I kept on hearing a weird buzzing sound by the motormans side door bypass button which stopped only when I pushed the button. Going back south, that train was my leader, the motorman called an RCI for the problem, it went out of service, ran lite to Coney Island and I had a double load of passengers.
Check out some abandoned trolley tracks in Ridgewood, Queens at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/ridgewood/ridgwd.html
Nice job Kevin (as usual). I grew up in Ridgewood in the 1950's and 1960's and I would often walk along those old trolley tracks. I'm surprized that they still haven't been torn up.
About a year or so ago I was in the area of Myrtle/Wykoff and noticed that some road construction had exposed some old tracks along Palmetto St. under the EL. If I can find the pictures that I took, I'll send them to you.
Is that a Peter Witt car in your bottom photo?
--Mark
It looks like a Peter Witt to me also. You can compare it to another photo of a Peter Witt at http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmny8361.html.
I taped yesterdays transit transit, wich has some great views of the R142. However, i can't connect my vcr to the computer. But if anyone else can, perhaps I can either mail you the video, or someone else can tape it when it airs next, and get some vidcaps for dave. -Nick
What is the schedule of this show? I can't find it, & would love to see it.
The schedule is on the MTA site, try www.lirr.org (I forget the ny.nyc.thingy). On Brooklyn Cablevison it is Thursdays at 6pm BCAT 65 I think (a BCAT Channel for sure).
Was it the December Transit Transit or January??
It is the January TT.
It can also be seen on UHF Channel 25 on Saturday's at 3:30 PM
I have an offer from someone in PA to make stills from the video. However, that will cause a delay since I have to ship out the video, and then let the person get to it. If someone in the NY area whp can make stills next time TT is aired, please speak now, or I will go ahead and send my tape to PA. Thanks! -Nick
Isn't what you're doing a copyright violation?
--Mark
I'm glad to see that the series continues. For some reason it got pulled from LI channel 80 Wednesday's at 8 PM (i.e. Nov. was last).
Mr t__:^)
Click here for Transit Transit's
--Mike
01/02/00
Today I was picking up some used Metrocards from subway readers. When I returned home and was filing them away I noticed variations on the TRANSIT CHEK Metrocard. They are as follows:
Lower left hand corner - Rewording of 1-800-METROCARD etc.
Lower right hand corner - www.transitcenter.com
Other than that, both cards are identical.
Bill Newkirk
There also seems to be two with the orig. wording ... one a bit more on the "bold" side then the other.
Mr t__:^)
There will be a new promo card out on 1/10/2000. I'll post the info later today.
I have a couple of sets of 1999 cards from the US Open Tennis tourna-
ment if any one is interested.
In case you folks don't know, the cards Aaron is talking about are very nice. They have decent size photos of four tennis stars. Apparently it wasn't a big issue quantity as I only have a couple of extra sets myself.
Mr t__:^)
this really made me sick !!! EXAMPLE !...........
our idiot mayor and city officials here plan Y2K 2000
new year celebrations all over LOS ANGELES COUNTY .......
one at the new LOS ANGELES STAPLES CENTER downtown L.A.
at the stroke of midnight with NO BUS & BLUE LINE RAIL......
************************* SHUT DOWN !!! ***************************
another example the HOLLYWOOD hollyweird sign is lit up with lites.
no fireworks in spite of the rain and cold .......................
** AND NO BUSES !!!**** all over the city all public transit
non operational shut down !!!!!!!! how about that :????
so those of us with cars etc... PARK AT YOUR OWN RISK AND PREY
THAT YOU ARE NOT TOWED AWAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE ???????????????
at least at times square you have subway rail what little pityful
rail and bus transportation we so called dont have here........
WAS NOT EVEN RUNNING !!! so guess waht ?? MOST PEOPLE STAYED
-----HOME !!!!! ( like i did ) and sobirety check lanes all
everywhere!!!!!! finally the mayor of los angeles DICK RIORDAN
PULLED OF HIS WORST DUD EVER!!!!!
the failed Y2K 2000 LOS ANGELES new year events !!!!!
AND.. there was a false bomb scare at the STAPLES CENTER !!
the myth of public transit here in los angeles is
************ WE AINT GOT NONE !!!!!!!!!!!! **************
like ATLANTA all transit stops at 1130 pm how do you serve the transit dependent polulation at new years Y 2 K 2000 celebrations here in lost angeles ????
Why not e-mail the LA Transit Authority, who might be in a position to act on your concerns instead of posting this here.
I tell you what !! ? count your blessings in new york city !!! E MAIL the mayor of lost angeles and the
"" COUNTERFIT"" M.T.A. los angeles lost transit syastem and you wont even get an answer !!!
however it is a transit related subject worldwide so for information plus i hoped others here notice west coast subtalkers and others also !!
AND SO .. i threw this out there no transit service for los angeles hollyweird R 2 K 2000 non celebration that
NOBODY CAME TO !!! thank you very much for your response !!! .....................
we should have had new years celebrations at dodger stadium
the los angeles collseum anahiem stadium grifith park
AND RUNNING PUBLIC TRANSIT PAST 2 am
lost angeles Y 2 K 2000 dud celebrations ?? not a chance !!!!
solution to the myth # 3 THE AUTOMOBILE !!!!!!
01/02/00
While riding the #7 approaching Queensboro Plaza I notice some BiLevels in Yard A adjacent to Sunnyside. There were quite a few of them there. Where they the C-1 original Bi Levels which are now retired? I could see the numbers to verify this. Also on the other side of the yard was one of those ex- B&M coaches (#7500 series) silver with blue stripe.
On the Montauk division approaching the flyover while passing Hillside Facility, I noticed cab car #5001 on the side of the building by itself. There seemed to be white graffitti on the lower windows but none on the stainless steel. Perhaps the graffitti was removed from the stainless steel but unable to from the windows.
I heard from a good source that DE-30 #404 is not running. Has anybody seen it? I was told that the LIRR messed around with it and the voided the warranty. Also the retrofit for the DE and DM 30's to change the horns is running about $120,000 per diesel/dual mode.
Also I was told that there was another fire in the NEW signal relay hut that replaced the one that burned up on 12/19 in Penn Station. Though minor, halon snuffed it out, signals were out for 2 hours on of all days, New Years Eve.
Bill Newkirk
What you saw were the C-3s awaiting warranty repairs. That was a temporary Kawasaki shed there and not an inflatable tennis court.
$120,000 sounds excessive for a modification to the horn. Seems that an air flow restriction is all that's needed.
/*$120,000 sounds excessive for a modification to the horn. Seems that an air flow restriction is all that's needed.*/
What the LIRR did was move the horns forward, and aim them a bit down, and give them a pneumatic valve, unlike the origional solinoid one. The nice thing is, you can't tell them from the dash 2's now.
I hope this lasts, though I tend to think the FRA will come in and screw things up. (the old, way too loud horns were supposedly there to meet some FRA requirement about the horn being 95db or louder - that's actually not far off from a jet taking off I think)
I've seen #5001 at Hillside Facility on December 26th. There does look to be some spray paint on the lower part of the side. Nothing compared to #9717 which now sits derelict further down the Holben Yard, alongside a building with three other wrecked/burned M-1s. They really gave her a paint job!
Another curiosity - there seem to be a few REALLY ancient coaches, one in yellow livery, one in maroon, out at Holben Yard. I wonder what kind of cars they were - LIRR passenger cars? They have rounded roofs, even at the ends. They're really ratty-looking. No doubt they're work cars of some kind.
Wayne
If they have round windows on the ends, they're MP-something. Otherwise, they came in from who knows where. I've seen a few cars like them around in various yards over the years. I think they're work cars...
01/02/00
Those rounded roof "work" cars are the ex- Boston & Maine steam heated coaches. Built 1935-37 by Pullman Standard. Their LIRR road numbers were in the #7500 series. Pulled exclusively by C-420's since they had the steam generators. retired by 1977.
Bill Newkirk
I wouldn't say they were pulled "exclusively" by C-420's.
These cars actually had the diesel engine/generators added, such as on the P72 (2901-2980 series) when they were rebuilt before entering LIRR service in 1959. I do not know why they were retired as early as they were other than their sheer age.
I rode in those ex-Boston & Maine coaches with Fairbanks-Morse
C-Liners on the head end in 1960-63. I also rode behind RS-3s in the ex-B&M coaches.
The cars were classed P74B on the LIRR, and were numbered 7521-7550.
There were also three from the Bangor & Aroostook. LIRR classed those as P74B1, and they were numbered 8551-8553. All three of those were bar cars; almost all the ex-B&M cars had become bar cars by the late 1960's.
01/03/2000
Steve Hoskins,
I stand corrected. What I meant to say was that they were pulled by the C-420's in their last years before retirement.
Bill Newkirk
OK, thanks for that bit of information. That clears up that little matter. Now, I have another question - what make of cars were the LIRR #74xx coaches, one of which (#7452 I think) mashed into the locomotive in a derailment near Pine Aire in 1971. What a wreck! Most of the damage was to the car underbody and vestibule. A photo showed a row of seats touching the blades of a (4-bladed GE) ceiling fan.
I'm still looking for the unit numbers from the 1950 Richmond Hill wreck. Both were MP-54 or MP-54A, with steam coach roofs. Weren't these the kind that had the unit numbers painted on the window glass near the end doors?
Wayne
Was that '71 crash the one where the LIRR dug a trench to bury the wrecked cars, then decided NOT to bury them, but to cut them up for scrap? I seem to remember some accident in the late 60's early 70's like that...
As for Richmond Hill, I think a few of the cars were also the traditional roofed ones. I guess you COULD always call up the LIRR and ask...
Yes, the accident occurred in February of 1971 (February 16, 1971 IIRC, give or take a few days). LI Press said (I was delivering it back then) they had dug a trench but later hauled the wreck of the first coach away by flat bed truck, don't know where to. The second coach was damaged at the vestibule end and on one side as well, not as badly as the first one. Some wise ass threw the switch leading into Pilgrim Siding and the train cannonballed into it, winding up every which way. That's a 90-degree curve onto that siding.
I'm not so sure about calling the LIRR regarding the RH wreck info -that's probably something they wouldn't want to discuss (serious black mark, no doubt). Some rail historian has the numbers, I'm sure.
One thing has my curiosity - Newsday's reprint of the accident account (this one I have) describes the Babylon train as being of recent (with respect to 1950) vintage, and the Hempstead train being older yet the photo clearly shows a traditional MP54 roof line and porthole windows on the rear of the first car of the Babylon train, which is all that's visible - the 12th car of the Hempstead train is wrapped neatly around it. The body shell was intact (except for the vestibule and end) but the interior is all scrunched up, you can see bits of it at the windows. Awful.
Wayne
Speaking of LIRR wrecks, in one of them a car was basically split down the center, so that most riders on the "wrong" side of the aisle suffered serious or even fatal injuries while most of those on the other side - just a few feet away - were completely uninjured. Was that Richmond Hill or Rockville Centre?
That was in Rockville Centre. It was discussed in this forum in either the spring or summer under the topic of "Gauntlet Tracks".
That was MP-54C #1819, wrecked at Rockville Centre in 1950.
Wayne
The cars you mention in the Pine Aire wreck were P-54's. There was one series of cars (P54E class) that were 452-461, and 455-456 were rebuilt in the LIRR modernization program in the 1950's so they were 7455 and 7456. (Any loco-hauled cars gained 7000 to their original number in that program....) There were many other P54 classes on the LIRR that could have been involved in that wreck too, but from what you mention, I suspect it was a generic "P54" train.
I have NEVER seen info that gave the actual car numbers involved in the Richmond Hill wreck. But your guess as to those cars having the numbers on the windows near the end doors is correct. At that time, LIRR control motors had a black panel painted on the left front and right rear windows, with white numbers and thin red stripes. In the mid-1950's, they started using the red number decals on the glass by themselves (same red decals as used on the middle of the lower car sides.)
Which yard is the Holben Yard?
01/03/00
Holban yard (name combines Hollis and St.Albans) is behind the Hillside Facility and usually has freight cars and maintenance of way equipment. This yard is seen after leaving St.Albans station heading for Jamaica, after passing the yard the ROW elevates and flies over the main line tracks.
Bill Newkirk
According to information I read in the Long Island-Sunrise Trail Chapter/NRHS "Semaphore" that $125,000 cost was for the entire fleet of 400/500 series diesels.
I figured it to be about $2,700 per unit, which seems a bit more reasonable.
DE-30 #404 is, from what I've heard, being striped for parts.
-- Kirk
In the last week, I have observed the bi-level prototype train with its' FL9's on either end laid up just east of the Richmond Hill Station. I drove into the Key Food parking lot on Lefferts Blvd. and it was laid up right on the other side of the fence, lights off in the coaches. Apparently, it is currently out of service.
01/02/00
It was discussed here for the past two days, but I spotted R-62A #2000 on a #3 train southbound at Times Square at 4:15PM today. R-62A #1962 was the northmotor. #2000 was about 3 or 4 cars from #1962.
Bill Newkirk
Those "Years Of Our Lives" cars...every time I see one I am reminded of events which occurred then, if I can remember any (hard to remember what happened between 1954 and 1959). 1962? I'm reminded of some of the popular songs of the year ("Sherry", "Don't Hang Up", "Monster Mash", "Patches", among many others), plus summer school (which was really kind of like a day play camp), and a bout with the measles in May of that year. AND my schoolmate Harry whose appetite got the better of him on February 8th that year. WHAT A MESS!
Wayne
ha!! ha!! does this still happen in ATLANTA GEORGIAS proud rail systems ?????
the marta subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in the winter !!!
they had to store them under the tunnels SO THEY COULD STAY WARM !!!!!! ???????
it seems that every winter the doors freeze themselves shut.....................
THIER CARS LOOK LIKE R68 HIPPOS !!! why dont the NYC cars doors freeze shut like ATALNTA???
sure glad i dont live there anymore !!!!!! dont miss it !!!!!!!!!
We don't miss you either.
WE WHO DON'T MISS WHO
EITHER ???? where ??? when??
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You used to live in Atlanta, and now you diss MARTA. When you move from LA, will you be dissing their system, too? After all, MARTA is a hell of a lot better than the LA MTA.
what is so better about atlanta ???
washington dc and san francisco
MUCH BETTER than ATLANTA
and L.A.
question have you ever rode on
the los angeles rail system??
why do MARTAS SUBWAY CARS DOOR FREEZE UP IN WINTER ???????
They probably freeze up for the same reason the doors did in Washington DC when I lived back there in 1981. They used to love to keep the trains nice and clean, and would run them through the wash racks whenever they returned to the yard at night. And the first couple times, nobody ever gave thought to the fact that the weather was going to be freezing in the wee hours of the next morning.
And I've heard of the same problem in New York City in the 1960's when I grew up there.
I'd sure hate to see what would happen if Los Angeles got freezing weather! I have to laugh my butt off, I drive a bus out here in the LA area, and the moment the temperature goes below 60 degrees, all the sissies on the bus have gloves and mittens on!!!!!
well !! i used to drive a bus out there in ATLANTA and i saw more "" SISSIES"" than even san francisco !!!
especially in about and around the MIDTOWN MARTA RAIL STATION !!!!
as you know if you live in the los angeles metro area the temps. go up during the daylight hours only and
down cool and cold and night .....
........ AND BURNING UP HEAT DURING THE DAY ....... so i would not call all california folks sissies etc....
because you cant ever tell what the weather is going to do here !! ( i live in pasadena )
we have had cold freezing weather out here !! a SNOWSTORM here would be ......
WORSE THAN A MAJOR EARTHQUAKE !!! i do agree with you there !!!
especially the type of snow that i experenced in DETROIT MICHIGAN !!!!! home of the people mover !!!!!
well!! why dont WASHINGTON DC trains doors stick shut in cold weather ???
and in NEW YORK even r 68 HIPPOS !!! and PHILADELPHIA BOSTON and oh yes CHICAGO ???
Doors on the CTA frequently fail in all seasons, but that's due to deferred maintenance, not ice.
in atlanta when i did live there 1983 - 1988 the train doors stuck shut unless they were stored ..........
UNDER THE WARM TUNNELS during the winter months only !!!! why is that ???
SO maybe they FIXED that problem since i left !!!! i hope so for those people who are stuck with it !!!!
i guess they fixed it 1998
How cold does it get in Atlanta, anwyay. In Philadelphia it is 60 degrees.
As I'm writing this, it's 65 degrees. Even when it's below freezing, I never have seen the doors freeze. I'm not saying it never happens, though.
Rob from Atl(anta)
i remember in 1984 I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO FREEZE TO DEATH ( excuse the large caps.... )
and sure enough the doors locked shut almost non operational
maybe they fixed the problem since 1998 but do you still use PAPER TRANSCARDS ????
Some question has been raised lately about the likelyhood of the Second Avenue Subway ever being built. The Second Avenue Subway was built but alas like the Thomas E Dewey Presidency all records of its location and accomplishments have been lost. There is more chance of finding a Ninth Avenue El Tunnel in the Bronx then of finding the subway on Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"If your subway service is phooey
Don't blame Wagner blame Dewey"
Michael J. Quill
Some question has been raised lately about the likelyhood of the Second Avenue Subway ever being built. The Second Avenue Subway was built but alas like the Thomas E Dewey Presidency all records of its location and accomplishments have been lost. There is more chance of finding a Ninth Avenue El Tunnel in the Bronx then of finding the subway on Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, the big question is Second Ave. in what city?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The exact location is not known despite diligent search by railfans. Its kind of like trying to find Jimmy Hoffa's grave in Giants Stadium. We all know he's buried there,but under which ten yard line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'd say whichever ten yard line the Giants' opposition is defending. It seems like Hoffa's ghost has singlehandedly prevented the Giants from actually scoring a touchdown this season.
Hoffa was from Detroit, so he must have been a Lions Fan
"Will the Second Avenue Subway ever be built?"
It's really hard to say-- to many people are involved.
N Broadway Express
I was told it was under the goal post
"Some question has been raised lately about the likelyhood of the Second Avenue Subway ever being built. The Second Avenue
Subway was built but alas like the Thomas E Dewey Presidency all records of its location and accomplishments have been lost.
There is more chance of finding a Ninth Avenue El Tunnel in the Bronx then of finding the subway on Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33"
The last I heard, it will be build from 125th Street Lexington Avenue to 63rd Street. Unfortunately, another study must be done before contruction proceeds.
N Broadway Express
(Another study must be done before construction proceeds)
The purpose of the study is to allow certain politicians to seem like Mass Transit heros on the cheap, while spending money elsewhere. Not to actually build anything.
After scoping out my de-unification plan, I've decided the only way the 2nd Avenue can be built is under a design, build, permit to operate for 49 years contract like the original subway, with a premium (express bus) price, and connections to the commuter rail system: ie the snobway.
[After scoping out my de-unification plan, I've decided the only way the 2nd Avenue can be built is under a design, build, permit to operate for 49 years contract like the original subway, with a premium (express bus) price, and connections to the commuter rail system: ie the snobway.]
Do you really think a premium price would be necessary? From what I can tell, a privately run high tech subway service in Manhattan would be extremely profitable, and if extended to less populous areas profitable, if as you propose the City paid for the construction and maintenance of the ROW. You're basically talking payments on the cost of buying and maintaining the cars and the cost of cleaning crews and station maintenance, since a contemporary subway doesn't really require much in the way of operational staff, and policing would be provided by the City as it is on roads.
You would need a spur from GCT to get the LIRR/MN people, as in the RPA's proposal. With comfortable, zoned superexpress service at 80 or even 120 mph and the massive underserved population of the Upper East Side, you could be talking a very popular service.
(Would you need a premimum price for a private 2nd Avenue.)
Yes, to help fund the construction. Ie. it would be intended to more than break even on an auto-equivalent basis at first, to make it more feasible and help cover debt service. After 30 or 40 years, when the contract runs out and the bonds are paid off, the price could be cut.
Would that dissuade passengers? If you had MILDLY better service -- ie. slighly faster, with more likelihood of getting a seat -- I'd bet plenty of snobs would take it just so they didn't have to ride with the rest of us on the subway.
[(Would you need a premimum price for a private 2nd Avenue.)
Yes, to help fund the construction. Ie. it would be intended to more than break even on an auto-equivalent basis at first, to make it more feasible and help cover debt service. After 30 or 40 years, when the contract runs out and the bonds are paid off, the price could be cut.
Would that dissuade passengers? If you had MILDLY better service -- ie. slighly faster, with more likelihood of getting a seat -- I'd bet plenty of snobs would take it just so they didn't have to ride with the rest of us on the subway.]
I'm not sure of the philosophy of that. While I believe that people should pay for what they actually use, that isn't true at all of the rest of the system--parts of it make money, parts of it lose, and the former subsidize the latter.
There are other problems with charging a snobway fare--for one thing, transfers would require an extra swipe of the card; for another, while much of the Upper East Side is rich, the people from above 96th Street aren't, nor are the people on the Lower East Side.
Another problem--it seems to me that if it's to have parity with cars, the ROW has to be paid for by the government, as roads are. That leaves operating expenses and equipment, but the off-the-cuff calculations I've done suggest that this wouldn't be a problem, because it would be in a heavily used corridor and sharply lower labor expenses would more than make up for the loss of subsidies. (That's true of the system as a whole, and because the area is so dense the economics of the 2nd Avenue portion would be better.)
Hello,
I just wanted to point out, if it wasn't already, that the line of track on the manhattanbound #7 between Queensboro Plaza and Courthouse Square now has 2 GT signals. This is something that I believe was necessary for the MTA to do. It makes things safer, just like they did to the opposite tracks a few years ago.
Based on what I saw looking out of front and center, the GT signals are located at the following locations: 15 MPH GT after the tight left-hand curve exiting the station, and 20 MPH GT which turns yellow upon entering Courthouse Square station.
I can't figure out though why there is that 20 MPH GT. Isn't the train clear of the curve by then?
Noooooooo! The only good line in the city!
On the No.6 Line there going crazy with GT Signals. The Runing Time was 54 Minutes from Pelham To Brooklyn Bridge Now its 58 Minutes.
I was wondering if anyone knows why Scott hasn't updated his site since October 4th. Is there no transit news? Usually he updates the photo of the month, at the very least. Plus I'm wondering if the type 8s are running again too. Perhaps some Bostonians can help out with this one. -Nick
I can answer the type 8 question. No, they are not running. They have been taken out of service for brake problems. Apparently I can stop an open car at Seashore on wet rails better than the type 8's can stop. There are also some on-going retrofitting(and other) problems that I think the T might FINALLY be taking Breda to task on.
Right on, Jeremy!
Just the other day I rode Type-7-1/2 3582/3622, the only Type-7s modified to run with the (now sidelined) Type-8s.
Scott Moore is often very busy with his job and the NET site is definitely his hobby. Be patient, the updates will come.
While I was trying to remember the car #'s on the r68's I saw on the Canarsie Line, I remembered another strange incident on the Canarsie Line. At the Morgan Avenue Station in Brooklyn, I was waiting for a Manhattan bound L. As the train approached, it made no attempt to stop: it went right past the station even though the platform was packed with passengers (this was November 12th, rush hour.) . What could have been the reason for this? Has this happened to anyone else?
Sometimes they skip those stations when there is a delay in service.
Delays sometimes necessitates a train to skip some stations to make up for a gap in service.
One of 3 things happened.
1) Did the train that passed you have customers? If it did, it could have been making a 'Battery Run'. This is where official; permission is given for a train to skip stops it would normally make. This is done to help get trains back onto their schedule after a delay.
2) If the train had no customers, it might have just been removed from service and was running light, either looking for assistance or to be sent to the maintenance shop.
3) The train was being transferred. This is least likely because of the location and the time of the incident.
Yes, it was full of passengers. I had just missesd another L train at the station (the two were about 70 seconds apart), si I think it was just running behind schedule.
This usually happens on the IRT number 6. Every so once in a while a train will be running behind schedule so in order to remain on schedule, the train gets permission to skip local stops. Usually it goes from 86 to 59, 59 to 42, 42 to 14, or 14 to Bklyn Bridge
Yes I taken many of those skips. In the Bronx they give you skips most of the time. Like 3Av followed my Hunts Point,Parkchester, and home to Pelham.
All last week there was elays on the 7Av line. My 3 train was forced to skip stops in Bklyn.......... One day it went express from Wall to Nevins.........
3TM
All last week there was delays on the 7Av line. My 3 train was forced to skip stops in Bklyn.......... One day it went express from Wall to Nevins.........
3TM
The Best skip I ever got was in my early years of being a Motorman on the No.5 Line. It was about 5PM and I was at 125 Street when Grand Central tower Informed me to skip 86 St and 59 Street. A nice super Express from 125 St to Grand Central.
Now that is something. Like racing against Metro North....
3TM
Yes that was a good Fast run with a R 33 Redbird before the speed Modifications
What's going on? I've been getting numerous reports of R33/36s running down the line with cracked LOCAL/EXP signs, and in some cases I believe they were missing. Is this someone's imagination or is it real? I'd like how this problem can be dealt with. Plus, if numerous cars are having the same incident happen, I can't help but wonder who would do it - kids, or somebody else with a purpose. I wonder how Corona Yard handles vandalism.
-Stef
I rode the 7 last night. I noticed the last car on a train at GCT had a broken-half missing local glass. As my train came in, instead of the green "LOCAL" i saw a light bulb. I decided to walk through all the cars and found on the 11 car train: 5 cracked "EXP", 1 missing "EXP" and 8 broken "LOCAL". I don't understand why this is happening. I also saw other trains like this. Psst.....Don't tell anyone on the 2/5 lines about this. LOL
Well I think too much of this is happening. It's not a mere coincidence that this is going on. Somebody has a motive for vandalizing the cars. What in the heck is going on over there?
-Stef
GRAFFITI VANDLES !..WHATS GOING ON? THE FUKING MTA
TOOK OUR TRAINS AWAY'AND WERE GOIN TO FUCKING TAKE
THEM BACK! AND THOSE MTA BITCHES CANT DO A THING!
WERE GOING TO CLAIM BACK TRACEY TOWERS YARD !
FUCK UP THE 2&5 LINE...DESTROY THE TRAINS ! WERE SICK OF
HITTING SCRAPS !.SO WHATS HAPPENING? WELL BUDDY THE TRAINS HAVE BEEN HIT SINCE THE 70'S...JUST NOT LATELY'
BUT THATS GOING TO CHANGE!
???????????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..............
HEY YO! DON'T SHOUT AT ME. HAVE A PROBLEM? TAKE IT TO SOMEBODY THAT CAN SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. OTHERWISE, DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING TO THIS POST.
the profane language !!! totally un-called for !! but dont worry we have the same problem here in LOS ANGELES
our buses are so GRAFFITI & WINDOWS SCRATCHED UP & VANDALIZED.......
that only the driver can see whats ahead ( they dont scratch up the drivers window )
now unfortunately the same is beginning to happen on our three RAIL LINES !!!!!
they got rid of the GRAFFITI only to now have to deal with these crazy people who insist on SCRATCHING
AND VANDALIZING AND DESTROYING WINDOWS !!! ( on bus and rail transit cars etc)........
my last visit to ATLANTA back in 1997 the windows are being SCRATCHED UP THERE TOO !!!
....................... WHAT A SHAME !!!!!!!!!...................................
"...that only the driver can see whats ahead ( they dont scratch up the drivers window )"
Interesting. That suggests, at least to me, that the scratchers are passengers doing their dirty work while the buses are in operation, rather than breaking into the bus barns or yards at night and scratching up the windows. When the driver is on the bus, the scratchers certainly can't damage his or her window, but they would have free rein to deface all windows on the bus, including the driver's window, if they were breaking in at night.
The only other way to explain it is that the scratchers realize that the bus would be taken out of service -- thus their "work" would not be seen by the public -- if the driver's window was scratched (driver's ability to see clearly) but that if only passenger windows are defaced, the bus will probably still be placed in service. But that is attributing more intelligence to scratchers than they could possibly have. (^:
eventually they will scratch up the drivers window !!!
its a matter of time !!
When you tag the trains and scratch the windows do YOU USE ALL CAPS there too?
What's your motivation? I'm curious.
Go to a message board where somebody cares about your meanngless existance ASSHOLE
N Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach: Sea Beach? Glad to meet your acquaintance brother. What gives with that filthy mouth jerk?
Someone should put some new colors in his paintbox and tell him that's no way to act unless you want to make a complete jackass out of yourself.
>>>Go to a message board where somebody cares about your meanngless existance<<<
Actually, since we got an actual subway graffiti defacer in here, I'd like to pick his brain and learn just what the graffiti gremlins hope to accomplish with their relentless urge to destroy.
www.forgotten-ny.com, which will never feature graffiti
Well you can always find where he lives and graffiti his House..and his personal being, tie him truss him like a turkey LOLOL...
I don't mind a few hell and damns; I use them myself, but the F word has no place on this website. It's classless and casts a bad reflection on a very classy group of people. Choose your words more carefully and try to get a handle on your anger or whatever it is that is bugging you. So cool it.
[the F word has no place on this website]
Oh give me a break. Sean writes a paragraph about how he graffitti's the trains and you respons with this?
You're like those mothers who complain about the naked breast in a movie about two kids who run around shooting their friends.
Hey Brighton Rider: If you're condoning what that jerk did or what he said, then we have more than one character on this website who needs a reality check-----and I don't mean me. A person using graffitti on a train is illegal for one thing, and the cursing on this website shows no class. PERIOD!!!!!!!
[Hey Brighton Rider: If you're condoning what that jerk did or what he said]
If you read my post more carefully you'd realize that I compared his graffittiing to a couple of kids shooting their friends and I compared your attack of his use of the f word instead of attacking his graffitti to a mother attacking the depiction of a naked breast in the same movie as two kids shooting their friends (instead of attacking the idea of two kids shooting their friends).
Why doesn't anyone ignore the publicists like this? If he wants to wreck trains in a post, let him. If he is caught by the police, then you can laugh at him. He can't spell, but he votes with a spray can. Therefore you guys have the edge. You are registered voters. Without an education, the scraps he will hit are handouts from the soup kitchen. That is unless the 2 and 5 actually layup at Tracy Towers.
And the dream of a Second Avenue Subway retreats even farther as long as the MTA has to expend effort and spend money to combat the criminal vandals that "sean" represents. I am sickened.
A translation of this somewhat ebonic post is in order.The Tracey towers that he/she/it speaks of are those two fortress-like buildings that overlook the end of the 4-jerome ave line.When they were built in the early 70`s they represented a last stand eefort a preserving middle-class housing in the Bedford Park section of the Bronx.By the accounts of friends and personal visits they have become a hell-hole,this poster`s reference to them is most telling.
[A translation of this somewhat ebonic post is in order]
You are a racist.
Oh,please forgive these racist remarks of one whose tax dollars have likely paid for the public-access computer this cretin has used to insult us with his presence.
My being a racist is doubtable..your being a fool is not.
The guy is from Canada. Unless you are also a Canadian, you did not pay.
The TA now has a toll free number to report any subway vandalism- 1-877-NYCT 555. Be alert and use it if you see any suspicious persons. However, they very rarely get caught since they have lookouts and do their acts when nobody is around. I also heard that there are graffitti web sites on the computer. Maybe this lowlife was looking for them and found out site by mistake! Also, he must be using someone elses computer- he can not spell, cannot distinguish small letters from capitals, and probably doesn't understand computers!
[Somebody has a motive for vandalizing the cars]
It's New Directions. It's so obvious.
It's these Flushing "gangs" that are causing such damage to the trains. Flushing is going to be the new "Brownsville/East New York" of Queens.
Probably just a bunch of rowdy school kids breaking the signs with some blunt object as they are crossing/riding between cars. So now when that car comes onto the head end....It is not like the TA has spare local/express signs sitting in some storeroom! In order to replace that vandalism, they would have to "steal" them from out of service cars. Face reality: the TA is just trying to do what they have to do to keep those soon to be scrapped cars running. I doubt if replacement of a local/express sign is a priority!
You'd be surprised to see what the TA has sitting around in some storeroom. When I hired on in 1986, it was not unusual to find R9 parts once in a while. I remember in 1993, Pitkin Yard was throwing pneumatic door engines in the dumpsters. Now it is even worse. The TA has to strip cars for spare parts to keep others in service. Local/Express glasses are probably a priority in part due to electrified lamp sockets behind them.
The poor condition of the Flushing line is definately in part due to
the poor condition of the Flushing area itself. Used to be bustling at rush hour. Last night got back before 7 and it already getting pretty dead. Chinese bookstore on Roosevelt avenue getting ready to close even though they are supposed to be open till 8pm.
The 7 train I was on was an express but most of the exterior signs were broken. We did manage to go pretty fast between Woodside and Corona though.
Little by little, I am beginning to notice more graffitti on trains and in stations. The graffitti remover used by the stations dept. cleaners doesn't remove the graffitti completely. The car cleaners have the same problem as the orange cleaner leaves some of the markings. Another problem is that trains are being laid up on express tracks and in tunnels where these vandals are able to attack them. Years ago, TA management stopped layups on the tracks and had all the cars go to the yards- why was this practice stopped? If controls aren't placed on where trains are laid up, we are going to have the same graffitti problems that we had in the 1980's. Where are the undercover cops? As a conductor, it makes me very upset to see this vandalism every day and knowing that nothing is being done to stop it.
Yes, it is cleaned up as best as possible, but this still costs the TA money- money that it should use to prevent these occurances!
01/03/00
One sure fire way of graffitti removal is lacquer applied very liberally on a rag. The trouble is the fumes are overpowering and very flammable. A car cleaner using it while smoking a cigarette would be in for a major accident. Since spray paint is already lacquer based, it usually comes off easily. The TA uses their citrus based chemical with steel wool usually scratching the surface yet not removing all of the graffitti. Also the unions would howl at the suggestion of the workers using lacquer thinner.
Bill Newkirk
! WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE WHAT YOUR STUPID SILVER TRAINS LOOK LIKE ! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE R16'S.THE GRAFFITI IS COMING 'IT'S THERE 'IT'S ALWAY'S BEEN THERE.HAVE YOU NOTICED? THE MTA CANT STOP IT
WRITER'S WILL ALWAYS HIT TRAINS..ESPICIALLY OLD
WRITERS FROM THE 70'S-80'S !
Lock the "writers" up and put them to work cleaning up their inane scribbles. if they're "Good" put them to work on mural projects for the city but the bottom line is LOCK THEM UP!!!!
When you deface the trains, do you use all caps then too?
Dumb Canuck.
Leaving graffiti on the trains is the equivalent of the "broken window" theory expounded by Bratton and others in the early 1990s. If you let the little problems go, it only encourages people to think they can get away with more serious crimes in the future.
This being a senatorial election year, a nice prominent story in the Times, News or Post followed up by a report (and video of a spray painted car) on one of the 6 p.m. newscasts would probably get a whole bunch of local officials to focus on the problem very quickly.
"! WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE WHAT YOUR STUPID SILVER TRAINS LOOK LIKE ! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE R16'S.THE GRAFFITI IS COMING 'IT'S THERE 'IT'S ALWAY'S BEEN THERE.HAVE YOU NOTICED? THE MTA CANT STOP IT
WRITER'S WILL ALWAYS HIT TRAINS..ESPICIALLY OLD
WRITERS FROM THE 70'S-80'S !"
Sean, scum like you should be gassed. I would love to have the personal pleasure of putting you out of your misery. You're a waste to humanity. I totally disagree that scum like you should be locked up. It costs too much to house you in prison, feed you and clothe you. You should be gassed and buried in Potter's Field.
All the writer should be jailed. That's what they do with scum like them in every other city in the world. If you don't mind riding on a train that looks like a filthy toilet, at least have some sensitivity for the people who are smart enough to give a damn!
Perhaps all sub talkers should come to your residence and spray paint the walls and scatch our initials into your windows and perhaps your car if you have one! Maybe we can even kick in several doors for you! or if you are really lucky we can put our foot through your walls.
*****of course not******
you wont like this! any society has to put restraints on citizens for the benefit of the whole. You have free speech but you cant go into a crowded theater and scream "fire", or hand a bank teller a note "give me your cash". In both cases police would deal with the person. If you want to paint ask Transit to let you adopt a station and paint over other people's graffitti! I'm sure transit will appreciate the free paint jobns!
Steel Wool Yegad, that stuff's obsolete Where I work we used to have this stuff called Citrol that we tagged as AGENT ORANGE use that chemical 40:1 with water on a Scotchbrite pad and you'll clean ANYTHING
The question is, how much is removing all the graffiti worth? Enough to equip workers assigned to clean it up with respirators so that they can use that lacquer to clean it without risking their health? This would mean money both for the respirators themselves and higher pay for the workers who would need to be trained in the proper procedure for their use. Given the choice of doing that, or cleaning it partially using current techniques and budgets, I think the MTA and the city will choose the latter. Probably rightly so - there are more important things to spend money on.
Yes I have seen it also. lately one out of my 3 trains a day I find Graffitti In my operating car. Like Saturday car 1660. Also On the signals I see fresh white Maker reading OPTO KILLS like the leaving Signal at Castle Hill Ave Northbound.
It's funny you mention this. I have been complaining about the level of graffitti between the station. What got me was the graffitti on the new wall between 36th St. and Queens Plaza, which occurred with workers on the scene doing a virtual 24/7. (I know that phrase was made obsolete, but I enjoy using it). Just this morning I saw graffitti on the tiles at 63rd Drive. I predice that in two years, (when Rudy is long gone), we will return to the 1970's as far as graffitti goes.
Tagging also seems to be on the rise in Flushing. I hope the MTA has a plan in place to deal with the renewed onslaught.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thank goodness we will never return to the complete graffiti-takeover of the system like the 1970's. Believe me, we might see a rise in tagging (as gangs continue to do most of this), but the days of full-subway car murals with windows painted over and such are not going to return.
Doug aka BMTman
"I predict that in two years, (when Rudy is long gone), we will return to the 1970's as far as graffitti goes."
As much as I really hate grafitti that would be a small price to pay to get rid of that @$$h_le!!!
I've got to disagree on that point. I will admit that the Mayor's heavy handed tactics anger many people, but you have to admit that he is effictive and gets the job done. A transit strike last month would have been devestating to the city's economy. If Koch or Dinkins had been mayor, they would have striked and would not have gotten a settlement any better than the one they did get.
I can understand why many people despise him, but when he became mayor, this city was totally out of control and a sense of normallacy has returned.
"I can understand why many people despise him, but when he became mayor, this city was totally out of control and a sense of normallacy has returned."
And not to mention that without a strong mayor (unlike the ones we have had in the past) this New Year's Eve would have lived up to all the forecasted horrors.
Funny how nobody is mentioning that it is because of the excellent work by Giuliani, Safir, the NYPD and NYFD that Times Square was not a scene of terrorism and the city did not riot as many (including myself) had feared.
In fact, just the opposite is true. It seems certain people (including members of the media) seem a little disappointed that Y2K was not a disaster. Then again, there are many people and companies who would stand to make a lot of money had it been a disaster.
The Mayor, Police and/or Fire Departments had little to do with keeping things from getting out of control at Times Square or anywhere else. Do you think if Two Million people started to riot at Times Square that the Mayor of those city agencies could have done anything to stop it?
There were no problems because the crowds that showed up were well-behaved and mature. You can't credit Rudy for people's behavior.
Doug aka BMTman
It's not so much that the Mayor or police could have done anything to stop a riot, but they could have taken actions to control and deal with the riots.
Riots in the past were handled by past leaders (which shall remian nameless) in a less than professional way. Letting people riot and plunder until they are worn out while allowing the police to simply "observe" the situation is not good leadership. I can't help but mention Crown Heights. A police force that can not deal with such a situation because of a lack of skills, equipment, or an abuse of "P.C." politics is a sign of poor leadership. This applies not only to NYC, but in other major cities.
Yes, thankfully, people all over the city were rather mature and well-behaved. But I can't help but think that an almost triple amount of police personnel presence, combined with the anti-terrorist measures, did help things.
"I can understand why many people despise him, but when he became mayor, this city was totally out of control and a sense of normallacy has returned."
And not to mention that without a strong mayor (unlike the ones we have had in the past) this New Year's Eve would have lived up to all the forecasted horrors.
Funny how nobody is mentioning that it is because of the excellent work by Giuliani, Safir, the NYPD and NYFD that Times Square was not a scene of terrorism and the city did not riot as many (including myself) had feared.
In fact, just the opposite is true. It seems certain people (including members of the media) seem a little disappointed that Y2K was not a disaster. Then again, there are many people and companies who would stand to make a lot of money had it been a disaster.
You are so right. When I heard that many executives feel they overpaid for Y2K protection that they wasted their money, I just shook my head. What we got is what we wanted. No problems in Times Square or anywhere else to speak and Y2K was a bust. It seems like money well spent to me.
The Mayor was in a no win situation. Had there been a disaster, he would have been critized for not doing enough, and since there was no disaster, he did too much. It's good that he does what he thinks is right and dosen't govern by polls like His and Her Slickness do.
Most of the new graffitti has been strategically placed by New Directions.
And obviously, too. I've seen 'Vote New Directions' grafitti in several places, like the north end of the northbound express track at 42st. I've seen is on cab walls, I've seen it on button boxes. It's just like on the buses, where the employees use marker to write 'Dave sucks ____' over the drivers area of buses at Yukon. Fortuneately, with the new Orions that have the black headliner, this is now gone.
-Hank
What responsibility to the transit riders have in stemming graffitti?
A few weeks ago I was on a Late Night D and the only other passengers in the car were a couple of teenagers. One of them whipped out a black paint marker and drew some weird symbol on the floor of the train. I was going to say something but decided against it for safety's sake. I guess I could have called the police later with a description but I just didn't want to get that involved.
I have just received a flier from the Ta that states that they have a toll free number to report subway vandalism to Transit's control center- 1-877-NYCT 555. I guess someone here from Transit's higher ranks must be reading these messages. The cardboard flier states that subway vandalism costs the TA hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. It also states that "with new subway cars arriving, vandals will have a field day if we don't stop them". I guess the TA realizes this problem, but is unsure how to address it. One way to eliminate some of the graffitti is to stop the practice of layovers in the tunnels and express tracks- park all unused trains in the yards where they are safer. Put more cameras in the stations. What happened to the undercover graffitti police? Maybe they left when the police dapartments were merged- reinstate them and place them in the areas where the most vandalism is occuring. The best idea is to clean up an entire train- new paint, new windows, seats, etc. Run this train daily, lay it up on express tracks- and keep it under survailance at all times- you will catchthese vandals very quickly. It's not entrapment although some civil liberatarians will protest as such
"Graffitti returning slowly"?!?!? HELLO!!!
In case no one has noticed it never left. Just because they give it a cutesy pie name like "scratchiti" so they can say that their rolling stock is Graffitti free doesn't change the fact that it is still graffitti and the trains still look like shit because of it!
Peace,
Andee
We made it onto the trains the first two days of 2000 thanks in large part to the mild weather and my wife's need to sleep in. My official first ride of 2000 was at roughly 1:00 p.m. from Ditmars to 57th on Slant 4369. (We passed up an R-32 that was leaving first so a certain height challenged individual could 'drive' the Slant.) As most of us are aware by now, everything is working just fine- or normal, anyway.
I'm delighted to report that in the futuristic-sounding year 2000:
-There's still one un-air conditioned car on each '7'.
-There are still R-26s on the '5' with the original square-paned 'school bus' windows.
-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard.
-There's still at least one wooden mezzanine and stairway, at Van Cortlandt terminal.
-There are still working grade crossings within the city limits, in Little Neck, Maspeth and Glendale.
-The LIRR still runs the 'old' diesels. Saw one running through Woodside this morning.
-At least one conductor announced connections to the IRT, IND and BMT.
-The elevator at 168th Street still shakes, quakes and vibrates.
-The coffee shop by my office still charges fifty cents a cup.
Remember all those sci-fi movies that had us driving flying cars around this time?
Just 363 days till the millenneum!
My First Subway Train of 2000 was Saturday Morning on the 9:43 Pelham and my first operateing car was 1700. On Friday on my last trip of 1999 I got to Dyre 35 Minutes Late with the road behind me and My last train of the year was a R 29 with the first two numbers 86 but can't remember the last two numbers. On the first trip I hade a mix of R26/28/29 AND on the second I had a R 33 9034.
It was unbelievable why the my train was so late. 3 Cops boarded my train and ordered everyone out of the First car and they had me crawl from 33 Street to 59 Street. Also they stoped my at every Emergency Exit and Sorage Room from Grand Central to 59 Street. They locked eveything. This totally mess up all the BronxBound No.4,5,6 Trains.
>>>-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard. <<<
Can you tell me what station, what line? This is a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>There are still working grade crossings within the city limits, in Little Neck, Maspeth and Glendale. <<<
And LIC
>>>-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard. <<<
Can you tell me what station, what line? This is a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
He probably means Rockaway Blvd. on the A (formerly the BMT Fulton St. El)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
-There's still one un-air conditioned car on each '7'.
Disgusting
-There are still R-26s on the '5' with the original square-paned 'school bus' windows.
DO NOT DARE to associate subway cars with those shitboxes masquerading as children's transport (those cheese colored vehicles aren't fitting to transport convincted felons let alone our world's future leaders).
-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard.
Does it work?
-The LIRR still runs the 'old' diesels. Saw one running through Woodside this morning.
Maybe one of these days I'll actually ride one before they're gone
-The elevator at 168th Street still shakes, quakes and vibrates.
I thought they were new.
-The coffee shop by my office still charges fifty cents a cup.
We know it ain't Starbucks!
Are there any plans to convert NYC to AC third rail operation. I know Boston's newer cars "swing both ways"...
AC propulsion does not use AC to transmit to the vehicle. Conventional DC is used, then the solid state equipment converts the DC to variable frequency AC. Brushless AC motors are used, with less rotating parts than DC motors.
Once all the motors are DC, would there be any advantage to changing the distribution system over to DC? Doesn't AC lose less power en-route?
AC won't work with a third rail
It'll work with two!
huh? you have a live conductor and a grounded one (the track). whether there is AC or DC potential on the third rail does not matter.
yes, but read my post about boston's plan for an eventual switch to AC third rail power. The inverters I used used DC as an intermediate stage, taking a constant voltage and frequency (in this case 110v 60Hz) and rectifying it to DC, then creating a voltage and variable frequency to drive a three phase AC motor (in this case 220V). My "guesstimation" is that Boston only uses the DC to output stages at this time, until the conversion.
AC power is much easier to distibute, and DC rectification equipment can be replaced by simple transformers.
So my question more clearly is:
Does NYC have plans to eventually distribute AC power on the thrid rails? - with equipment to match.
Dave,
All of Boston's 3rd rail (and overhead) is DC. The Red Line's Bombarier 1800-series cars convert the DC to AC to power its motors.
yes. this is part of an overall plan to convert the third rail distrobution to AC when all cars have solid-state inverter drive
It won't be done, because the cost of conversion (and the additional substations due to low-voltage AC losses) is not worth the savings. Plus you still need transformers at all the substations to reduce the distribution voltage to, say 600 VAC.
The savings in AC drive is the lack of resistance losses, plus the lack of brushes, commutators, and the like. AC brushless motors have none of this, plus the control systems give a smmoother acclelration than is possible with DC based (resisitance) control.
Some utility companies use a grounded neutral in their distribution systems, so any railway that uses the track in the return circuit (read streetcar, light rail and rapid transit, as well as electrified railroads) must also install an isolation transformer in their substations to isolate the nuetrals.
The savings in AC drive is the lack of resistance losses, plus the lack of brushes, commutators, and the like. AC brushless motors have none of this, plus the control systems give a smmoother acclelration than is possible with DC based (resisitance) control.
Ahhh - no resistor grids... I didn't realize that was true with AC. It makes sense, but I had only heard the smooth acceleration bit. I know resistor grids can be a big source of heat, so will this have any noticeable impact on subway temperature?
"so will this have any noticeable impact on subway temperature?"
The greatest source of heat in the subways does not come from the grids. It comes from the HVAC. There is also a tremendous amount of heat generated during the compression of air.
Substations already have transormers in them, why not use their secondary voltage (assuming its consistant) as the AC rail voltage? Rectifiers would not longer have to be maintained. The existing DC system uses an earth return without any problems at substations.
Quoted from this site:
"Calculations based upon contemplated schedules require for traction purposes and for heating and lighting cars, a maximum delivery of about 45,000 kilowatts at the third rail. Allowing for losses in the distributing cables, in transformers and converters, this implies a total generating capacity of approximately 50,000 kilowatts, "
This is a 10% loss, and I don't know if AC could make that figure better, but any way you look at it, that's a lot of power lost!
db
It would cost to much in the long run to change the distrubution system. Subway cars aren't the only things that uses the 600 volts from the 3rd rail, signals, lighting all have taps off the 3rd rail. Not to mention all the circut breakers are all DC type it would be to costly for the NYCTA to change.
Very very long buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Signals do not work off of 600 volts nor does the tunnel lighting. Both are AC which explains why when the 3rd rail power is pulled, signals and tunnel lights remain lit. For reference please see "Taking of Pelham 1 2 3"...
Sure it would cost money to change over, but how many people use AC anymore? Doesn't that mean that the TA is paying more for everything, because its custom? And doesn't DC require a bunch of power stations, whereas AC would not?
Transmision voltage needs to go though some type of conditioning to be used anyway
Transmission voltage is over 36000 volts distabution voltage is stepped down to 8,000 to 34,000 volts depending on where you are 12 - 15 kv systems are common.
The DC now does not need to go through the old rotory converters (A motor running a DC generator) but now uses solid state diodes to do the job.
The Cars with AC motors can pick up the 600 volt DC and the inverters make it usable as AC again in the motors.
A bit of a power loss but pretty efficient and I think still more efficient that the DC motors and controls, but I am getting out to the edges of my understanding on that.
When all of the cars are replaced with the new AC motors You could do a switch. of the third rail. But the third rail and rail common would be single phase and not as efficent to send as 3 phase AC either
I think follow-up posters have successfully identified the two
independent issues here: 1) AC traction, which means the use
of brushless 3-phase AC induction motors in place of the 100+ year
old system of DC brush motors and 2) AC power distribution.
Issue 1: AC traction uses solid-state drivers to power 3-phase
induction motors. The advantages are numerous: much less wasted
energy during acceleration as opposed to the DC and grid resistor
system, ability to do regenerative braking, and much better ability
to control torque at any given speed.
Issue 2: AC distribution of power has been used for about 100 years.
Edison was a proponent of DC power distribution and used a variety
of unscrupulous means to discredit his intellectual nemesis, Tesla,
who was the master of AC. However, in the long run, the advantages
of AC were understood. Specifically, loss of energy in transmissions
systems comes from the fact that wires are not perfect conductors.
Every wire has a certain resistance per length
Let's say you want to deliver 120 Volts at 100 Amps to a customer.
That's 120*.1= 12 kilowatts. For argument's sake, let's say
the wires between the power plant and the customer have a resistance
of 0.1 ohm. Then the power lost in the wires is I^2*R, or 1 kilowatt.
Now, AC has a property that DC doesn't; it can be stepped up and
down by transformers with fairly good efficiency. So, let's step
up the voltage by a factor of 10 to 1.2 kV, send that out of the
power plant, and then step it down to 120 very close to the customer.
So, to deliver the same 12 kW to the customer we only need 10 Amps
on the 1200 Volts side. The power lost to line resistance is
now only 10 Watts.
Still with me? We are slowly winding back to the subway, I promise.
OK, so AC power distribution allows us to send high power over long
distances without incurring heavy losses and/or resorting to huge,
heavy wires. On railroads such as Amtrak's NE corridor, the overhead
wire is high-voltage AC (e.g. 11.5 kV, 12.5 kV or 25 kV). This
obviates the need for closely-spaced substations as the power can
travel for miles and miles without significant loss. The high-
voltage is stepped down on each MU car or locomotive.
On the subway system, part of the power distribution is high-voltage
AC. Power travels from the generating plants (now part of the
city grid system) to substations as AC. 4,160 volts was once a
common voltage although I'm not sure what is in use now. At one
time motor-generators or rotary converters were used to mechanically
convert this high-voltage AC to 600 volts DC. Later transformers
and rectifiers (first mercury arc, now solid-state) were used
for the same purpose.
From the substations, the 600V, high-current electricity travels
in big nasty cables to minimize loss. That's OK, because the distance
from the substation to the point of use is fairly short...not
more than a mile.
Now, here's why converting to AC third rail makes little sense.
You can't step up the third rail voltage. The LIRR uses 750
with bigger insulators. I've heard of 1000V systems but I can't
cite an example. Much beyond that, though, you run into the simple
problem that you need a certain amount of room per volts, and that
applies to AC or DC. So, if you can't make any meangingful increase
in third rail voltage, you can't gain any efficiency there.
You could eliminate the rectification part of the substations, and
thus reduce maintenance costs (although those things rarely fail),
but on the other hand you'd have to replace all of those fat
high-speed circuit breakers, of which there are dozens per substation
zone, because they aren't gonna work with AC!
Finally, I have no reason to believe the new cars would even work
if subjected to an AC third rail. The type of drive in use
takes the 600 and ground and drives the three phase coils with
6 sets of transistors (probably GTOs) in what is called an
H-bridge. The frequency is varied to control torque and
acceleration. To do variable frequency conversion from an AC,
as opposed to DC input is very tough. Most systems take the AC
input and just rectify it and then use an H-bridge anyway. Regen
braking into an AC line is SUPER-nasty!
You're right about GTO's. On the Arrow III's it's GTO's and the power is varied wth frequency and amplitude as well. The good ol' thyristors.
Very well explained on the voltage transmission side Jeff. I think most anyone here ought to understand it.
There was a 1500V DC third rail line in Manchester, UK, but this was converted to trams for the Metrolink system.
Just to add a supplementary question, any thoughts as to which city in the world is served by the most different types of electric systems?
Very well said! BART in San Francisco is the system that runs on 1kV DC, and as I think of it, their insulators are a bit more substantial than those on the TA. Your point about the electrical hardware is well taken also.
For some reason, maybe because they operate on a much smaller scale, Boston has made it their plan to change to AC power, which is the motiviation for my question originally.
Dave,
I have lived in Boston for a long time, and followed transit closely here; I have heard nothing about a planned change to AC power. Could you share your source with us?
I lived in Allston from 88-99. When the newest red line cars were delivered, with AC _propulsion_, there was a blurb in the paper extolling the virtues of the new cars, and how they would in future be compatible with an AC third rail system.
I'm sorry I can't remember more, but hey, all those beerz can take a toll on the old noggin.
;-) Dave
Hmmmm... sounds like the paper got it wrong. Yes, the trend is towards AC traction (1800-series Red Line cars; Type-8 Green Line trolleys, etc.). But as was stated by others earlier in this thread, AC third rail isn't really an option for many reasons.
The media get it wrong? Yeah... it happens :0)
...and that's traffic and traction on the eights, plus or
minus two
I rode an R train of R32s today in which the first car had weird signage. One side said R (brown diamond) 4th ave. Nassau and the other side said 59th st. not 95th st.
The R operates R32s? I am assuming they were from the E.
My guess is the operator didn't bother finding the yellow circle 4 Avenue/Broadway/Queens Boulevard sign and the train had been on the late night shuttle the night before and the sign wasn't changed. The R goes from 59th to 95th late nights.
Yes, there ARE R32s on the "R", and there are also R46s on the "E". I've seen them both, as lately as December 26th. Two "R"s on December 11th were R32s, and we had one R46 "E" on our Queens Boulevard photo shoot.
Wayne
Nope. The R runs between 36 Street and 95 Street at late nights
The R train in question was between 49th st. and 14th union sq (manhattan). So, they do run occasionaly.
On occasion R-32’s have run on the R line. Just as on occasion you see R-46’s on the E.
And speaking of the E: As I type this, the E is operating on the R tracks from Queens Plaza to Whitehall Street. Maybe that is it?
A General Order. The F trains are "single-tracking" in the river tube between 23/Ely and Lex/53 all this week during the midnite hours. Because of this, they cannot handle the E trains as well, so they go to Whitehall.
The brown R is left over from the Chambers Street special days.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Per official Bulletin:
Early Show CBS-TV MetroCard will go on sale at 7am on 1/10/2000 at these stations (grouped to save space):
34-B,D,F,Q,N,R,1,2,3,9,A,C,E
14-4,5,6,L,N,R
Grand Central -4,5,6,7,S
59th/COlumbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
86-4,5,6
Fordham- 4,B,D
149/3av-2,5
East180-2,5
Bronx Park East-2,5
Westchester Square-6
Pelham Bay Park-6
96-1,2,3,9,B,C
103-1,9
225-,19
231-1,9
238-1,9
242-1,9
Jay Street-A,C,F
Borough Hall-2,3,4,5,M,N,R
Flatbush Ave-2,5
Utica-3,4
Kings Hwy-D,Q *ONLY*
Grand Army Plaza-2,3
Atlantic/Pacific-2,3,4,5,B,D,M,N,R
Queens Plaza- E,F,G,R*ONLY*
74/Roosevelt-E,F,G,R,7
82-7
90-7
Junction Blvd-7
Astoreia Blvd-7
Ditmars-7
Times Square- 1,2,3,7,9,A,C,E,S
47-50/Rockefeller Center-B,D,F,Q
161-4,D
Lawrence-M,N,R
DeKalb- D,M,N,Q,R *only*
86 BROOKLYN-R
95 BROOKLYN-R
Rockaway parkway-L
207-A
Metropolitan-M
181-A
175-A
145-A,B,C,D
135-B,C
The 4:19 PM from Penn Station to Port Jeff was a dual mode for the first time today, eliminating the need to change at Jamaica. The engines were #502 on the east end and #508 on the west end with 8 C-3's between the two.
I think what some people on this site do not accept that one can be pro-transit and still advocate change, even advocate reducing under-utilized services to free money for other things.
Today I was riding home next to a transit map, and noticed that Brooklyn West End and 4th Avenue service, in addition to running only once every 20 minutes, are just shuttles at night. So if you are anywhere away from the BMT Broadway Line, you have to wait up to 20 minutes, take a train, wait fo the N, wait up to 20 more minutes, then transfer to one of these shuttles (which I hope are well timed). That's service? The reality is that with so few riders, the TA has cut subway service to the point where it is just a ghost, or just PR.
Running the IRT as far as Downtown Brooklyn, the Hub, and Queensboro, with FREQUENT service and FREQUENT buses, with ONE change, would not only be cheaper, but better.
Ditch the discounts and bring back the token?
Metrocard is here to stay. The technology will only improve with time and the MTA sits on tons of cash from folks like me who keep about $75 on it but rarely use it. The sub-bus-hub idea isn't totally bad as long as the MTA actually has buses their to meet late-night commuters at 3:00am in the middle of winter. I'd run "F" trains down to Church Avenue late nights.
[Off-topic: Kensington being gentrified? I don't think it will ever spread as far south as my old block - Webster Avenue. I just can't picture a Starbucks on 18th Ave & McDonald Avenue.]
(Kensington being gentrified?)
Bunch of low grade yuppies like myself have bought houses south of Caton (teachers and accountants, not investment bankers and lawyers). Starbucks may take a while to come to 18th Ave, but Church Ave is a possibility. But the non-snob yuppies moving there now probably would prefer the mix of stores on Church to Starbucks. Its going to be a pretty interesting place there soon.
They could always bring back Garfields on Church and Flatbush Aves
>>>Bunch of low grade yuppies like myself have bought houses south of Caton<<<
Ever seen Kenmore and Albermarle Terraces on 21st Street? Beautiful urban oases near the old Flatbush Reformed and its cemetery. The surrounding area seems quite depressed though; remember this is the neighborhood of the infamous Korean boycott which demonstrated Dinkins' ineptitude or clandestine agreement with the 'boycotters.'...
Anyway I have a friend who is trying to purchase one of the homes on one of these culs de sac for years, and has never given up the dream despite the surrounding area.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I imagine that the trains are scheduled to arrive so you can make the connection. For example, the R would arrive at 1:03 on the express track, discharge, the B would pull in on the same track at 1:05, and the N would arrive at 1:03 on the local track, and leave at 1:06 or 1:07. This would cause a slight inconvienence for the customers on the N already but would be worth it. I think that at nights, the WE Shuttle should go to Pacific Street as a local so that B customers can go to the D and F without having to get on an N to get there. The 5 should be extended to 149 Street late at night as well so that it isn't necessary to take a 2 to get a late night 4 into Manhattan.
You have an extremely vivid imagination. In tried and true form (and from personal experience) the shuttles usually leave just before the train arrives.
-Hank
>>>In tried and true form (and from personal experience) the
shuttles usually leave just before the train arrives. <<<
Just as the local leaves the platform as the express is arriving, or the reverse.
We have subway professionals in the forum. Would one care to tell me why the local does not *always* wait for the express to discharge its transferrers?
Schedule keeping, conductor indifference, etc. It does happen.
Conductor indifference does seem to be big when there are no holding lights. When I was in NY over the holidays, I took a ride on the Franklin Ave shuttle. On the way back in to Prospect Park, there was a Q in the station. I had my bags with me(not alot though) since I was heading back to Penn Station to come home. The conductor on the Q closed the doors within seconds after the doors on the shuttle opened...it took the T/O a few seconds to get moving, so by that time I was able to walk across the platform and actually said "you know, you could have waited for us." He just shrugged his shoulders as the train pulled out...
Again, would any of the conductors in Subtalk care to explain the indifference? It wouldn't hurt to wait a couple of seconds for a transfer. Who knows when the next train will come?
Mngt. in the Towers & at Hdqrs doesn't care about "service", they care about "schedule". If the Conductor holds the train for a connection nobody in mngt says thank you, the reverse is the norm.
Mr t__:^)
Remember, this is the same agency that wanted conductors to skip the "please" as in "Please stand clear of the doors" to save an accumulation of seconds and improve scheduling.
The same logic can be applied to transfers. A few seconds here, a few seconds there, and the schedule is missed.
--Mark
Recenetly I've noticed a lot of "door slamming" as I call it at many cross platform transfer points. On my ride to work this morning, the conductor on the R train i was riding closed the doors in the faces of people at Roosevelt Ave Queens Plaza AND Pacific St. And he was running early (the train made Continental-Pacific in only 54 minutes, 5 min. ahead of schedule). I took the F home, and the same thing happened at Jay St., and Continental. I know the TA's Nazi-like policy about keeping to a schedule, but a couple of months ago both of those conductors would have kept the doors open the extra 20-30 seconds required to allow passangers to quickly transfer trains. What's up? I won't bring up the obvious reason, as I'm sure it's being contemplated by all as I speak ...
Number 1 during rush hours TA does not conductors waiting to make connections due to thr frequency of service.
Number 2 an unwritten rule with conductors is if the rear section is closed you continue closing down and proceed.
But both of these "rules" were regularly ignored until recent weeks. What's different now?
What if the other train is pulling in as you are ready to close the doors? When I was in NYC a few weeks ago, I was on the E heading to Penn Station from Lexington Avenue. At 7 Avenue, the B on the opposite platform closed its doors as we came in to the station. WHY NOT WAIT??? Now, anyone from Queens who took the E instead of waiting for the F hoping to make the cross plafrom connection to the B/D had to wait and WHO WANTS TO DO THAT UNLESS YOU CAN SEE INTO THE FUTURE AND KNOW SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THAT TRAIN BEFORE IT REACHES YOUR DESTANATION???
There was a time when the schedules had a lot of slop in them.
I recall that Continental to QP on the local was scheduled at
20 minutes but you could make it easily in 18, 17 if you had
a fast conductor. And depending on the ATD at QP, your 3 minutes
hot got taken back with "hold for time". So with that much
slop, it made sense to wait for connections.
Nowadays there is no rapid in RTO anymore. There are a lot of
new fixed sign restrictions, not as bad as the early 80s with
400+ red tags system-wide, but now that every cab has a speedometer
and you have supervision hiding behind columns with radar guns,
those restrictions are being followed literally for fear of getting
written up. Compounding that, when you do get to nice open track
with no timers or little yellow plate signs, the car equipment
is impotent.
With no real way to make up time and the pressure to keep to
the schedule, it is understandable that conductors are slamming
doors. The only thing that would fix that is an RTO bulletin
clarifying management's intent that connections be made during
non-peak hours (if that is indeed still their intent)
I can understand during peak service that in theory....there is another train right behind the connecting one...but why still do it during off peak times??
My other question involves what role some towers can play in some of these situations. Don't towers hold trains for connections(in some occasions at least) at places like W4th St, 59th St, Chambers??, Times Square??(IRT), Brooklyn Bridge, etc.). Are some of these same towers staffed during off-peak hours? Couldn't the tower operators(at least within their section of coverage) see that there is not another express train within site, and hold it??!!!
There is nothing more frustrating to board a local just north or south of an express station(name your stop, ANYWHERE on the system), go through all the local stops to the next express stop, and have an express just pull out...and you know there wasn't another express reasonably close back down the line...
There was better service by the tower operators when the tower was right there in the station. And they were able to concentrate on their job better. Now with all these master towers, the tower operator is away from the action, doing the job of several people vs. the old days, and just sees a bunch of red lights on the board. Since the advent of master towers, motormen have to call on the radio for lineups more than ever before. But the TA takes the capital money, and is able to cut down on the number of tower operators. And the public suffers with missed connections.
It brings back memories of Myrtle-Broadway.
The bulletin does exist and is periodically reissued. But it's still routinely ignored by "in a hurry" conductors who want to get held at the next gap station.
[I think what some people on this site do not accept that one can be pro-transit and still advocate change, even advocate reducing under-utilized services to free money for other things.]
I am concerned about the "slippery-slope" situation. Let's assume that the TA ends late-night service on an underutilized line such as the West End shuttle. Few people will be directly affected, that much is true. But this would represent an end of 24/7 service at every station, which is something that hasn't occurred in the history of the subway with some insignificant exceptions. The door will have been opened, so to speak, for further service cutbacks. My fear is that these cutbacks will end up going too far.
[I am concerned about the "slippery-slope" situation. Let's assume that the TA ends late-night service on an underutilized line such as the West End shuttle. Few people will be directly affected, that much is true. But this would represent an end of 24/7 service at every station, which is something that hasn't occurred in the history of the subway with some insignificant exceptions. The door will have been opened, so to speak, for further service cutbacks. My fear is that these cutbacks will end up going too far.]
It's a valid fear. After all, look at what happens to the replacement every time they tear down an el.
At the same time, I think 24/7 service in all areas is a real white elephant. If only they could be trusted to trim service only when comparable service is offered economically--or if people were actually charged for what they use. I suspect that people would stop clamoring for late night service soon after their first $10 fare!
At the same time, I think 24/7 service in all areas is a real white elephant. If only they could be trusted to trim service only when comparable service is offered economically--or if people were actually charged for what they use. I suspect that people would stop clamoring for late night service soon after their first $10 fare!
At that point, anyone who has a car will use it at night. Alot of people are probably doing this already, but a $10 fare would virtually get everyone with a car off of mass transit at night.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[At that point, anyone who has a car will use it at night. Alot of people are probably doing this already, but a $10 fare would virtually get everyone with a car off of mass transit at night.]
Is that necessarily bad, though? It's more economical, and there's plenty of room on the streets.
[At that point, anyone who has a car will use it at night. Alot of people are probably doing this already, but a $10 fare would virtually get everyone with a car off of mass transit at night.]
Is that necessarily bad, though? It's more economical, and there's plenty of room on the streets.
Very true. I used to do it myself whenI lived in the city. But, what about those who don't have cars. Some don't have cars because they are poor and can't afford them. You can't slap these people with a $10 fare.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Very true. I used to do it myself whenI lived in the city. But, what about those who don't have cars. Some don't have cars because they are poor and can't afford them. You can't slap these people with a $10 fare.]
The problem as always with subsidies is that there's no free lunch--the poor *do* end up paying for that $10 fare, because the money that goes to it could go to other, more economical services they could make better use of.
It seems to me that rather than subsidizing this or that, we should just give the poor more opportunity and help and let them make their own choices depending on what they need most.
It's also amusing to note that I hear the same complaint from LIRR riders, who are presumably not poor, about the prospect of reduced subsidies.
Larry, and other subtalkers, While I certainly cannot fault your dollar estimates, the scheduled reliable bus idea depends on a level of credibility which I doubt. .But in truth, that is all thedetail stuff. The REAL issue IMHO sitting here in Oakland CA, is once you allow some off hour curtaailment, you are on the slope toward the "anti-New York" transit operators. Item, I arrived in DC from NYC on a Saturday in November(Amtrak overnight from Penn) only to discover that DC Metro starts service @ 8 AM!!! This is absurd, but because it has never run all night there is very little public pressure available to force earlier service.
Efficient use of money you say? I SAY tax the autros off the streets and junk the fareboxes. Rather than accepting the crumbs from the highway lobby and fighting over saring an insufficient budget, the push should be for more money for more and better service. BTW, as to the train meeting for convenience @36th St etc., we have some of that on BART here. HOWEVER, currently there is Caltrans freeway work obstructing some tracklage south of the major transfer station--BART's solution delay the Fremont train(a "G" analog-and send the San Francisco train on ahead--this at a time of day with 20 min headways all over. My point you ask? The 'guaranteed' connection isn't. All that said no night time cut backs!
Gosh, I'm glad I don't work late nights anymore like I did in the 80s. At 3-6 AM, depending how busy we were, I took the 4 from GCT to Union Sq, and then the R home to Bay Ridge. The Manhattan Bridge was open then for Ns, but no express overnight service.
The trip took abt 90 mins. including wait time. If you added the extra 15-20 mins waiting at 59th for the shuttle...jeez...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Long Ride: Geez)
That's the point. Night service now is Ghost Service, not Owl Service. People compare a theoretical idealized network with a subway to bus system, but that's not what we have. (Its like comparing a voucher system with ideal in which rich and poor share the same school, rather than with the de-facto voucher system we have).
And if the subways ran frequently enough to be decent, what would be the cost per ride? Even if you count on attracting more passengers, there are just too few people out there to make it anything other than absurd. To satisfy those against change, while keeping costs down, service is cut to nonsense levels but not eliminated.
Now I admit to a credibility issue, long term. Once you replace the subways with a more limited system connecting with frequent bus service, what's to stop the bus service from being cut away? But I think a better future is possible, and the idea that because you have to connect to a bus at 3 a.m. the subway will not open until 8 a.m. is silly.
I read an article on Clinton Hill in this weekend's times. It said the Metrocard made the area more attractive, because instead of getting on the G and having to transfer, or the infrequent C, you can hop a bus to Downtown Brooklyn and board a more frequent subway. DIRECT RELEVANCE to a choice between a bus connection or having to ride an infrequent subway, or subway shuttle, at night.
Late night, I'd rather take a FREQUENT IRT subway to Downtown Brooklyn, get out at a station WHERE MANY OTHER PEOPLE ARE ALSO, then take a connecting bus. Nothing worse than standing on a deserted underground platform for a long time in the middle of the night. How many women use that service? And now many stations are unmanned? Geez!
[if the subways ran frequently enough to be decent]
It's funny to read you complaining about "infrequent" late night service. In Buffalo, a bus every twenty minutes is considered frequent. Late nights we're lucky that even one bus line runs every hour. A late night train running every twenty minutes is not absurd. It's actually pretty good service. You New Yorkers always in a rush have no true concept of wait time.
It's funny to read you complaining about "infrequent" late night service. In Buffalo, a bus every twenty minutes is considered
frequent. Late nights we're lucky that even one bus line runs every hour. A late night train running every twenty minutes is not
absurd. It's actually pretty good service. You New Yorkers always in a rush have no true concept of wait time.
Everything is relative. Have you ever considered that maybe you folks up in Buffalo have no true concept of frequent service? :-)
[It's funny to read you complaining about "infrequent" late night service. In Buffalo, a bus every twenty minutes is considered frequent. Late nights we're lucky that even one bus line runs every hour. A late night train running every twenty minutes is not absurd. It's actually pretty good service. You New Yorkers always in a rush have no true concept of wait time.]
One of the main differences I think is that very few people in New York have cars; if you work at night, you're stuck.
One of the main differences I think is that very few people in New York have cars; if you work at night, you're stuck.
More New Yorkers have cars than you think, unless things have changed that drastically in the past 20 years. When I lived in NYC (in Queens), I had a car. Most people in Brooklyn and Queens did. I lived in an apartment and parked the car on the street. I didn't use it to go to work, but I used it sometimes at night and on weekends. With metered parking suspended at 6 PM, I drove into Manhattan if I was going anywhere at night. The trip was shorter and I felt safer. Queens to Queens, or Queens to Brooklyn trips, definately by car. Once I got a driver's license and a car, basically the only times I'd use the subway was to go to work, sporting events and railfanning. After all, the trains have always been my first love.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
According to census data, about 43 percent of NYC households had one or more cars in 1990. Interestingly, that figure hasn't changed much since 1960.
The elderly and young singles and couples tend not to have cars, because in NYC they can get around without them and use the money for other things. Middle income and better families with children almost all have cars. Poor families do not, but probably wish they did.
Why more traffic now than in 1960, given that the population and the share of households with cars are about the same?
1) More adults, and more households -- fewer persons in each household.
2) More households with TWO+ cars, rather than just one.
3) More people driving in from the burbs, or just driving through.
According to census data, about 43 percent of NYC households had one or more cars in 1990. Interestingly, that figure hasn't changed much since 1960.
The elderly and young singles and couples tend not to have cars, because in NYC they can get around without them and use the money for other things. Middle income and better families with children almost all have cars. Poor families do not, but probably wish they did.
I was a young single when I got my first car in NY. I was 21 when I got the car and 26 when I left NY. Most of my friends that weren't railfans had cars, even the ones with limited income. Back in the 1970's, you were able to get a running car for a couple of hundred dollars. I paid $275 for an 11 year old car. It was a 1965 Chrysler Newport. It weighed 4000 lbs. and got 8 miles to the gallon in the city. One friend of mine had a 9 year old 1967 Dodge Dart with a rusted through floor. Pick up the floor mat and you see the road. Another friend had a car that was in a wreck but ran that he picked up for $150. It was a battered station wagon that had A/C like a refrigerator - icy cold! I had another friend that picked up a rusting old mini school bus for $25. there waas another guy I knew in Queens with a 1964 Falcon. If you lived in Brooklyn or Queens, it semed unusual not to have a car - anything that ran. The established middle class people with families had the later model stuff. Just about everybody that I went to college with either had their own car or drove their father's. So, I don't care what the statistics say. Just about all my peers and I myself had a car. I will say this - anyone who lives in Manhattan who owns a car needs his head examined. When my cousin lived on the Upper East Side, he had no car. Whenever he needed to go somewhere outside the city, he would rent one for the day.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I will say this - anyone who lives in Manhattan who owns a car needs his head examined. When my cousin lived on the Upper East Side, he had no car. Whenever he needed to go somewhere outside the city, he would rent one for the day.]
Well, I don't have one for just that reason--I don't need it to get around and it's a lot cheaper to rent. But when I was growing up on the West Side we always had a family car here, an immense station wagon to boot. And when I had a summer job on Wall Street, I used to drive down the West Side Highway every day with my father; it was actually an easy commute, easier and faster than taking the rush hour train. I remember lots of kids in my HS class driving from Manhattan to school in the Bronx, too, though I continued to take the IRT.
Well, I don't have one for just that reason--I don't need it to get around and it's a lot cheaper to rent. But when I was growing up on the West Side we always had a family car here, an immense station wagon to boot. And when I had a summer job on Wall Street, I used to drive down the West Side Highway every day with my father; it was actually an easy commute, easier and faster than taking the rush hour train. I remember lots of kids in my HS class driving from Manhattan to school in the Bronx, too, though I continued to take the IRT.
The best thing to own in Manhattan is a bicycle.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[The best thing to own in Manhattan is a bicycle.]
I think a horse would be cool.
I think a horse would be cool
I like horses. I would much rather ride a live animal than an inanimate hunk of steel. They're faithful and loyal, just like dogs.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I like horses. I would much rather ride a live animal than an inanimate hunk of steel. They're faithful and loyal, just like dogs.]
But now Sony is selling an artificial dog. Who knows, the real article may be as scarce as horses in a few years . . .
Never had a car, neither my mother or father had a car, aunts and uncles never had a car. The only members of the family who had cars were my cousins, and they soon moved to Nassau County!
No car tradition in my family...we could never afford 'em and had no need for them with the occasionally reliable MTA.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Never had a car, neither my mother or father had a car, aunts and uncles never had a car. The only members of the family who had cars were my cousins, and they soon moved to Nassau County!
No car tradition in my family...we could never afford 'em and had no need for them with the occasionally reliable MTA.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My parents never drove either. My aunts, uncles and cousins do. So does my brother.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Are there any figures about the average age that a New York City resident gets a driver's license? Years ago, I had the impression (maybe I read it someplace) that the average age for getting a license was around 22 or so.
That impression was a reason I thought that raising the drinking age to 21 was so dumb--just because suburban and rural kids, after their day off from school on their 16th birthdays to go get their learners' permits, would go out driving drunk, killing each other, was no reason to discriminate against city kids who might have wanted to drink but had no plans to drive until they reached 22 or so.
If they had raised the driving age to 21, what a boon for public transportation all across the country would have occurred!
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Are there any figures about the average age that a New York City resident gets a driver's license? Years ago, I had the impression (maybe I read it someplace) that the average age for getting a license was around 22 or so.
That impression was a reason I thought that raising the drinking age to 21 was so dumb--just because suburban and rural kids, after their day off from school on their 16th birthdays to go get their learners' permits, would go out driving drunk, killing each other, was no reason to discriminate against city kids who might have wanted to drink but had no plans to drive until they reached 22 or so.
If they had raised the driving age to 21, what a boon for public transportation all across the country would have occurred!
I was 21 when I got my license. I only did it when I discovered that the subway doesn't take me everywhere I wanted to go. Up to that point, that's what I used to say - "I don't need a car. The subway takes me everywhere I need to go".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
In NY State you can get your DL at 16 with Drivers Training, but you can t drive in NYC with any licesnse until you are 18
(In NY State you can get your DL at 16 with Drivers Training, but you can t drive in NYC with any licesnse until you are 18)
Not ture. With drivers ed you can get senior privleges in NYC at 17. I did it along with 95% of my high school class.
I think the idea of raising the driving age, rather than the drinking age, to 21 to solve the problem is great. The problem is, isn't there a right to drive in the constitution?
No, our children just think there is :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No it isn't. The subway doesn't take you where you want to go unless it's in Manhattan. And it's not even the best choice on weekends. All you do by raising driving age is limit mobility to people who are legal adults. You can raise the driving age to 18 which is effectively the case in New York City, but beyond that, it's wrong. The 21 drinking and gambling age is wrong.
Heck, in our society, lots of people don't become adults until they're 25. Still, here in Brooklyn where you can't see the pedestrians and cars coming around the corner because an SUV parked on the street and a building block your view, it has given me a little fright to see some of the neighborhood teens starting to drive. Any most of them are very nice girls, not rowdy boys.
The 21 drinking and gambling age is wrong.
It always used to be 18. It was 18 when I was 18. When did they raise the age in New York State? Funny thing in Florida - you can legally drive at age 14 but you can't legally drink until 21. Actually, with the driving age, I think its a student license at 14 and a full license at 16.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They should make the legal drinking and driving age 25. The majority of accidents are caused by those under 25. Since I'm over 25 that is how I feel. When I was 15, I wanted the legal driving age to be 14. When I'm 50, I'll want the leagal driving age raised to 35. When I'm 60, I'll want it raised to 40. Basicly, I want to keep my kids off the road.
Look at the statistics. In North Carolina, where the driving age (full license) is 16, the highest group for accidents is 16 and 17 year olds. In New Jersey, where the age is 17, the highest group is 17 and 18. Basically, it's not the age, it's the number of years experience. Part of that can also be attributed to the parents. Again citing North Carolina statistics, those new drivers who had less than 500 miles of driving experience (on a permit, with a parent or guardian in the car) prior to obtaining their license were significantly more likely to be involved in an accident than those with 500-5000 miles experience. And those with greater than 5000 miles experience were even less likely to have one. Also, in North Carolina, girls were more likely to have an accident during their second year of licensed driving, while boys were more likely to have one during their first year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Raising the driving age to 25, you'd notice that that group will have the highest accidents.
Probably, but I'm willing to guess it will be a whole lot less than the 18-24 group. The biggest problem as someone else wrote is the lack of experience that new drivers have. In New York, no one is allowed on a highway until they are licensed. Basicly, we give new drivers a minimum of training and then hand over to them a lethal weapon, a car. If new drivers had to have a higher minimum number of hours or miles behind the wheel, including night driving, driving in rain, snow, etc. before they are allowed to go out solo, accidents among younger drivers will drop. Of course I'm not accounting for the damage DWI contributes to the problem. I focusing on young drivers who are sober.
Mark.
Probably, but I'm willing to guess it will be a whole lot less than the 18-24 group. The biggest problem as someone else wrote is the lack of experience that new drivers have. In New York, no one is allowed on a highway until they are licensed. Basicly, we give new drivers a minimum of training and then hand over to them a lethal weapon, a car. If new drivers had to have a higher minimum number of hours or miles behind the wheel, including night driving, driving in rain, snow, etc. before they are allowed to go out solo, accidents among younger drivers will drop. Of course I'm not accounting for the damage DWI contributes to the problem. I focusing on young drivers who are sober.
Mark.
I learned how to drive through a driving school. During my second lesson (my second time ever behind the wheel), my instructor had me drive under the el on Roosevelt Ave. and on the Long Island Expressway for a couple of exits. Talk about sh**ting in my pants! I'm thankful for being thrown into heavy traffic and onto the expressway right away. It prepared me for any driving situation. Once I got my license and my first car, I had no fear of driving anywhere. I had to go out to Fairlawn, NJ to pick up my first car. I went out there with a friend, and soloed going home over the GW Bridge, Cross-Bronx Expressway, Whitestone Br. and the Long Island Expressway, all in rush hour. I was driving the expressways, the streets, the Brooklyn Br., the Willie B., cruising out on the Island - all being a new driver, and had no fears because of what my driving instructor did with me from the beginning. that was in early 1976. I never got a ticket for a moving violation in NYC. I got my first ticket in Florida at age 29 (speeding), and got into one minor fender-bender also in Florida at age 37, which wasn't my fault. So, I guess I defy all the statistics regarding drivers and age. To this very day, I hook up my seatbelt before I put the key in the ignition, because that's the way I was taught. BTW, I had one hour a week of driving school for 4 months before I passed my second road test. I took the first one in 1/76 and the second one in 3/76. Two weeks later, I bought my first car from my uncle.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I took Drivers ed in Manhattan also in 1975-76. My group met on the weekend, so we didn't have rush hour traffic. We never got on a highway, (FDR Drive or West Side Highway) and there are no more els. We always drove in the day, never at night. We never got any snow or ice, I think it only rained lightly once.
My father took me out a lot, (on Long Island becuase a lerner's permit is no good in the City if you are under 18, unless the car has dual brakes.) I got better experience with him than I did with drivers ed. Since there were four in our group, each of us got to drive for 20 minutes. The course was for 12 weeks, so each of us got a total of 4 hours behind the wheel.
If someone is able to pass the road test (lets face it, the road test is a joke), with that minimal training, there is no way they are prepared for nite driving, snow driving or highway driving.
Even with the additional help I got, I was nervous about entering a highway for quite some time. Part of the problem is I went away to college for a couple of years and didn't drive much.
I didn't take Driver's Ed. I heard it was a joke and you didn't learn much or get much practice. I went to driving school. An instructor would pick me up at my house and give me a private lesson every week for an hour.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Guess I'll date myself here, but I learned to drive on a 1929 Model A Ford roadster that my father rebuilt. You had to double clutch when you shifted and of course there was no power anything, also no side windows, just side curtains that you put up when it rained. I also took driver's ed, after I had my license, so that I could get my insurance premiums reduced. In all my years of driving I've had one chargeable accident (I fell asleep at the wheel and hit a road sign) and, in my grad student days, a couple of speeding tickets. I grew up in Poughkeepsie (although I've never really considered it home) so I had small-city driving as well as rural when I was learning. NYC came later, down from Yonkers and under the el, when I was about 18.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Guess I'll date myself here, but I learned to drive on a 1929 Model A Ford roadster that my father rebuilt. You had to double clutch when you shifted and of course there was no power anything, also no side windows, just side curtains that you put up when it rained. I also took driver's ed, after I had my license, so that I could get my insurance premiums reduced. In all my years of driving I've had one chargeable accident (I fell asleep at the wheel and hit a road sign) and, in my grad student days, a couple of speeding tickets. I grew up in Poughkeepsie (although I've never really considered it home) so I had small-city driving as well as rural when I was learning. NYC came later, down from Yonkers and under the el, when I was about 18.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its too bad you couldn't find a way of keeping and preserving that wonderful piece of history. I'd go nuts over a Model A. Even if I couldn't afford to fix it up, if it was mine, I would have put it in storage, hoping that some day I'd have the money to fix it up and restore it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Dad sold it at Mother's insistance, she never liked it - I was still in college at the time, it shared the garage with Mother's car and my motorcycles; Dad's other car and my '60 Fairlane 500 sat outside and she wanted at least one of them inside. The car was bought by the owner of the Ford dealership in Highland, NY, whose wife wanted it. He was going to do a full-blown restoration of the body (the mechanics were in excellent shape and the body, while good, had some hidden flaws), so I suspect that it is still around.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dad sold it at Mother's insistance, she never liked it - I was still in college at the time, it shared the garage with Mother's car and my motorcycles; Dad's other car and my '60 Fairlane 500 sat outside and she wanted at least one of them inside. The car was bought by the owner of the Ford dealership in Highland, NY, whose wife wanted it. He was going to do a full-blown restoration of the body (the mechanics were in excellent shape and the body, while good, had some hidden flaws), so I suspect that it is still around.
The 1960 Fairlane is a nice classic also.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I had that one for a good while - courted my wife in it, although I sold it before we got married. Gunsights on the front fenders, picnic table fins in the back, 223 flathead 6, three on the tree, a nice bright blue 2-door sedan. Somewhere around one of our houses I've still got the original red leather keycase from Housenick Motors in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania with the keytags inside.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What kind of bikes did you have? I see wrote motorcycles plural.
I had the use of two Triumphs for about three years, a 650 and an 850 Bonneville - they belonged to a friend of my Dad's who ran out of space when he got married (wife advised him that her cars were going in the garage and that left room for only four bikes in the third stall - one Harley with side car, two BMWs, and a Norton - so these two had to go). That was many many moons ago, I haven't ridden since I graduated from college. By that time Dad's friend had doubled the size of his garage so he was able to take them back, and besides I was moving 450 miles away and wouldn't have had a safe place to park them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Private lessions are without a doubt far superior to drivers ed. However, private lessons are much more expensive. Driver's ed gets you to pass the road test, and that is it.
When JFK Jr.'s plane went down last summer, all the comentators who happen to be amature pilots said, he had training to make him competent to fly under good conditions, but did not have enough experience to fly in difficult circumstances. This is no different from many new drivers who may be fine on sunny days with lite traffice. Put them in a difficult situation, and they don't have the proper experience to handle it.
The drivers in the 18-24 group, expecially the males also suffer from immaturity and drive accordingly
Private lessions are without a doubt far superior to drivers ed. However, private lessons are much more expensive. Driver's ed gets you to pass the road test, and that is it.
That's why I'm thankful for the instruction that I got, because by the time I was ready to solo, I was prepared for anything and afraid of nothing. Like I said, my first solo was in the first car that I had just bought and I had to drive it back to Queens from New Jersey in rush hour traffic. As for the lessons, my parents paid for it. I was a college student at the time and I wasn't working.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re uselessness of driver's ed]
And how. I took driver's ed at a private driving school in Connecticut. It was a complete laugh. Most of the time was spent in class, listening to lectures delivered at a level appropriate for ten-year-olds and watching typical bloody-crash movies. The on-the-road training was little better, as it consisted of tootling around at no more than 20 m.p.h. on lightly traveled roads during daylight.
Well, this is the last message in this branch of the thread I'm reading so I'll plant myself here:
I took Drivers Ed. In addition to an insurance deduction and giving me the ability to drive NOW instead of waiting for October. It also gave me the basic skills I needed to drive so I could gain experience (20 minutes a week is not enough).
I also took Drivers Ed in Manhattan, the other two people in the car already knew how to drive, I didn't and I would have never passed the Road Test without the driving experience with my father in Long Island. It was certainly NOT lightly travelled, and the end of the lesson had already entered darkness. However, it had never rained during any one of the lessons. And the only El was the FDR between Avenue C and 20th.
P.S. There were no videos during the lecture, even though the video trolley always sat in the room.
20th St. and Ave. C aka Stuyvesant Town was my childhood stomping ground.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re uselessness of driver's ed]
And how. I took driver's ed at a private driving school in Connecticut. It was a complete laugh. Most of the time was spent in class, listening to lectures delivered at a level appropriate for ten-year-olds and watching typical bloody-crash movies. The on-the-road training was little better, as it consisted of tootling around at no more than 20 m.p.h. on lightly traveled roads during daylight.
One thing that was mandatory in New York was the 3-Hour Class, in which we saw crash movies. You couldn't take a road test unless you took the 3-Hour Class first.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its now 5 hours, and they charge you a hand and a leg for it.
Its now 5 hours, and they charge you a hand and a leg for it.
Five hours! That's terrible. Three was bad enough. How does one stay awake for the full 5 hours?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Lots of coffee, think of other things while watching the programs...and somehow pass that test they give you.
[According to census data, about 43 percent of NYC households had one or more cars in 1990. Interestingly, that figure hasn't changed much since 1960.]
One thing that's no secret is that a high percentage of vehicles driven in NYC are unregistered, uninsured, or driven by unlicensed drivers - in many cases, all three "un's" apply. I therefore tend to be somewhat suspicious of car-ownership data. Census figures might be a reliable source, but the latest available data is a decade old.
[Why more traffic now than in 1960, given that the population and the share of households with cars are about the same?]
It might be because a high percentage of the vehicles on the road are vehicles *other* than private automobiles. These include taxis, car services, delivery trucks, tradesmens' vans, buses, and so on. Obviously, the percentage of traffic consisting of commercial vehicles varies by time and place, but as a general rule it's probably higher than almost anywhere else in the country.
(Commercial vehicles and traffic)
That's a good point. We certainly have more commercial vehicles per square foot of pavement.
(Decade old data)
It could be that auto ownership will go down for the same reason that subway ridership has gone up -- more and more yuppies and immigrants replacing old-line New Yorkers who drive.
How much extra would it cost to time shuttles like the R to 95 St. properly so that they would always arrive a minute or two after the through train (the N in this case)? And a minute or two before for inbound trains? It couldn't cost much extra, and it would effectively eliminate at least one wait of up to 20 minutes.
I understand that the Lefferts Blvd. shuttles are timed this way. The TA should make sure that ALL the late night shuttles are timed properly for connection - Rockaway Pk,. Bay Ridge (R), West End (B), Dyre Ave. (5), Myrtle Ave. (M). Did I miss any? Oh yeah, Lenox Ave. (3) - even though that IS a bus.
Speaking of which--how much more trouble would it be to run the 95th St. and West End shuttles to Pacific St. instead of 36th St? I've never used either myself, but it sure seems like a convenience people would appreciate (for about four months, before they got used to it and started asking, why not run these trains to the city?).
(Why not run the West End shuttle to 36th)
Picking up this idea:
Aside from a few pennies saved, why not run the Q three more stops to Stillwell, or better yet local from Stillwell to Kings Highway and then express? More people far out get express service without changing that way.
Aside from a few nickel saved (even fewer, with OPTO), why not run the G to Church, F express or not, to eliminate the F delays at the existing "terminal" and provide more service at the four additional stops?
"....or better yet local from Stillwell to Kings Highway..."
Why is that better? Only if you use Avenue U or Neck Road.
Just out of interest, is it possible to estimate how much money would be saved if the NYC subway closed between, say, 1 AM and 5 AM?
Just out of interest, is it possible to estimate how much money would be saved if the NYC subway closed between, say, 1 AM and 5 AM?
Although this is practiced on other systems throughout the country, and even throughout the world, it is an idea that is totally alien to New York, and I don't think it would be tolerated. Since there's been transit in New York, there has been no disruption of service except during a strike or a power failure.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Night service in other cities:
As part of her platform for the Mayor of London election, Glenda Jackson (who's a real politician over there now, so don't snicker, even though she probably won't win this one) has proposed opening up a few key tube lines for night service, starting with the Victoria, in recognition that London is turning into a city that never sleeps too. (Tube officials say they need the downtime to do repairs.) Berlin runs a consolidated night rail service on a couple of the U-Bahn lines as well. Doesn't Chicago do the same?
Boston is considering extending the T hours to coincide with a later bar licensing. (Currently both shut down at 1 AM.)
I can't object to the logic of Larry's idea for night subway service only in the city core, but if it were adopted I imagine the MTA beginning to chip away within a few years at the 3-4 minute frequency he suggests. First five, then eight, then ten...who's gonna know the difference? Just a few insomniac railfans. I ride the night trains all the time, and while I'm not happy with the service, I'd rather let dozing dogs lie.
. I ride the night trains all the time, and while I'm not happy with the service, I'd rather let dozing dogs lie.
I couldn't agree more. I also believe that the TA would chip away at night replacement bus service. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.
Oh, and I hope that London does get its nighttime rapid transit service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT."
Here's a question I always wanted to ask: What kind of illiterate wrote that proverb?
I think it was YOGI
I happen to like it!!!
I happen to like it!!!
I do too, and I use it all the time. It is such a classic, that it wouldn't sound the same saying "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Could have made the same argument about horsecars. Or un-airconditioned cars. Or tokens.
This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything.
[This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything.]
New York's probably anti-future because it's way too nostalgic for the past. Now, there's nothing wrong with an admiration for the past, as in forgotten-ny. But way too many people go beyond mere admiration and actually want to turn back the hands of time, metaphorically speaking, and return the city to an era that's not only vanished but obsolete.
Consider the incessant whining over the demolition of the old Penn Station. It's been gone over 35 years, and had been in decline well before its demolition, yet people who weren't even born then bemoan its loss. This has been translated into the plans for converting the Post Office building into a "new," grand station for Amtrak. Wake up folks, the old Penn Station was built for a type of transportation that's dead, buried, and largely forgotten. Trying to re-create it today would be a huge waste of money.
Another example, moving away from transportation, is the action of the anencephalitics on the City Council to ban superstores. While their actions presumably were motivated by sheer stupidity, many New Yorkers fully supported the ban. To many peoples' minds, big stores are evil, and everyone should shop at friendly Mr. Wilson's corner market. The fact remains that superstores are the wave of the future, something that's been recognized almost everywhere else in the country. New Yorkers, with their hatred of anything modern, have gotten their wishes as superstores have been kept away. Of course, they have to shop at crappy, dirty, overpriced stores, staffed by suspicious, lazy clerks rather than avuncular Mr. Wilsons. What a waste.
(NYC Council anecephalitics voted to keep out new stores)
Whatever that word means, its too kind. Bacteria is more like it.
But smart bacteria. Congressman Weiner (a correct name if ever there was one) put in his newsletter how he is working to get federal money to bring new supermarkets to Brooklyn, in response to community complaints.
Before taking clueless Chuck Schumer's old job, Councilmember Weiner voted against the zoning amendment to allow supermarkets to open without years of red tape.
Why I saw Weiners "report" of taxpayer financed lies, I almost barfed.
[(NYC Council anecephalitics voted to keep out new stores)
Whatever that word means, its too kind. Bacteria is more like it.]
It's a form of birth defect in which babies are born without brains. Now, the medical literature says that anencephaly is always fatal within a few days. So how do they explain the City Council?
The old Penn Station was built for a type of transportation that's dead, buried, and largely forgotten. Trying to re-create it today would be a huge waste of money.
Peter, I'll agree and disagree with you at the same time. True, the grand age of railway travel has ended, and will probably never return. But monuments to our heritage are vital to teaching our children about that history - to quote John D. Rockefeller, in a speech (or letter? I forget which) at the time he endowed the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, "so that the future may learn from the past." Penn Station should never have been torn down. Yes, it was a white elephant, sitting on a valuable piece of midtown real estate. But it represented an important part of our heritage, and Grand Central, while impressively restored, just doesn't have the stature that Penn Station had. Assuming that the additional space is needed in Penn - and I'd have to agree with those who say it is - renovation of the Farley building to serve passengers is a good choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Preserving the heritage)
Unfortunately, the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction. During the 1980s, the City spent $100,000 a unit to renovate two-bedroom apartments in tenements which had been built cheaply and poorly for the poor with inferior floor plans.
I guess politicians aren't good at qualitative judgements. In Baltimore they are tearing down one-family brick rowhouses that would sell for a mint in any decent neighborhood of NYC.
[Peter, I'll agree and disagree with you at the same time. True, the grand age of railway travel has ended, and will probably never return. But monuments to our heritage are vital to teaching our children about that history - to quote John D. Rockefeller, in a speech (or letter? I forget which) at the time he endowed the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, "so that the future may learn from the past." Penn Station should never have been torn down. Yes, it was a white elephant, sitting on a valuable piece of midtown real estate. But it represented an important part of our heritage, and Grand Central, while impressively restored, just doesn't have the stature that Penn Station had. Assuming that the additional space is needed in Penn - and I'd have to agree with those who say it is - renovation of the Farley building to serve passengers is a good choice.]
Call me a radical--I think they should move Madison Square Garden next to Javits and rebuild Penn!
Seriously, we're guilty of major oldthink when it comes to thinking about transportation terminals. They should be airport/Amtrak gateways, with commuter service linking right into the business districts.
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Could have made the same argument about horsecars. Or un-airconditioned cars. Or tokens.
This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything
What do you call transit improvements? Replacing trolleys with buses and tearing down els with bus replacement? That's the trend that has been prevalent in NYC since the late 1930's. Actually, it is electric rail travel, trolley and rapid transit that are the wave of the future. At least, that's the way Europens feel about it. As for history and heritage, how much of this must we destroy in the name of the allmighty buck and in the name of progress? Again, I point to Europe, where buildings have been standing since the Middle Ages and aren't going anywhere. In this country, we can't even hold on to 100 year old buildings.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything.]
Such a vivid reversal from the way things once were. But I think it goes beyond the people on the sidewalk. When the City stopped growing, we became a bunch of greedy interest groups fighting for what we have--air, light, our bodega, our union contract, etc.--rather than competing to build what could be. The habits of the fat years, when everyone could be paid off and go home happy, are hurting us in these leaner ones.
"Doesn't Chicago do the same?"
CTA has 24-hour service on the Red and Blue lines, while on the other lines, generally speaking, service begins about 5 or 6 AM and ends somewhere between midnight and 2AM. All L lines run 7 days a week, with the exception of the Yellow Line, which is a weekday-only feeder into the Red Line's northern terminal.
IIRC, there's never been 24-7 on the Brown, Yellow, or Orange lines. All-night service ended on the Green and the Purple local in mid-1996. This system *generally* makes sense:
1) The Blue and Red Lines are by far the busiest lines.
2) Between the the Blue and the Red there is 24-hour coverage of the North, South, West, and Northwest Sides.
3) Green is fairly redundant to the Blue Line-Forest Park Branch and the southern portion of the Red Line. Pressure reliever during the day, useless duplication at night.
4) Brown, Purple, and Yellow are more-or-less feeders for the Red Line. (On the other hand, a good chunk of the late-night traffic on the Purple is Northwestern University students going to the city to party or returning from same. Many assert that all-night service on the Purple was not too lightly traveled and reduced drunk driving.)
5) Midway Airport is the major off-peak traffic generator on the Orange Line, and it closes about midnight, IIRC, due to noise considerations (VERY close proximity of residential neighborhoods).
Mind you, while "owl" service on the L is fairly decent, CTA's owl bus system is absolutely disgraceful! The owl bus map is a pale shadow of the daytime bus routes -- see for yourselves by going to
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/maps/cta-night-north.gif
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/maps/cta-night-south.gif
and then comparing those owl maps to the regular (daytime) CTA map at
http://www.yourcta.com/maps/systemmaps.html#a
I remember staying in London some years back and my hotel was about 5-6 miles from the Picidilly area. At Midnight the busses and tubes stopped running. We had to take a cab, with all the service charges after midnight it ran us about 30.00 to get back to the hotel. We were not out partying, we were coming from the theater which started at 9.00PM
Since there's been transit in New York, there has been no disruption of service except during a strike or a power failure.
I don't think they ran the 2nd Ave El at night.
(Is it possible to estimate savings)
Yes, but based on a lot of info I don't have. On the downside, you'd have to factor in the cost of securing the stations as the last train passes, and of running all the buses.
On the plus side, you'd have to factor in the fact that RTO and station personnnel, like everyone else, presumably hate working at night -- don't they get a night differential? You'd have an increase in safety for T&S projects. You'd have a decrease in vandalism. You'd have a decrease in crime and the associated victim lawsuits.
So its more than just having fewer station and RTO workers, but more bus drivers, on the street.
Then there are quality issues. Are the connecting buses to only run every 20 minutes like the trains, or more often? I say more often, but that would limit the savings. Are the stations now unmanned at night? That means we are saving money now, but at a terrible cost in passenger fear and safety.
Just sticking to the obvious, one bus every ten minutes means six bus drivers an hour. One train every 20 minutes means three T/Os and three conductors per hour, plus signal personnel, plus station personnel. The power demand per passenger should be lower for six buses per hour than for 30 subway cars per hour.
Finally, it should be noted that my plan would be to run the IRT with frequent (every 3-4 minute) service as far as Downtown Brooklyn, Queensboro Plaza, and the Hub, with transfers to special night buses there. The subway is better at moving people across the rivers even at night, and concentrating people on a few lines (they might have to walk an extra block or two) would allow frequent service at an affordable price.
My nightmare was when I was at Pratt late at night. I had to take the G to Smith/9th, then the F to 4th, the N to 36th and then catch the R shuttle.
The F+G are scheduled pretty poorly between 4th Av and Smith/9th, too. The G almost always rolls out of 4th Ave for Smith/9th before the F comes through, and I often see F's roll into 4th Ave from Manhattan with G's coming in right behind them.
Today while boarding my 3 @ Wall, a Manhattan bound 3 entered the station. I saw one of the cars and it was 1890. This car was followed by a Livonia car. I guess it was 1895,1894,1893,1892,1891,1890. But that is 6 cars???? I will have to check again and find out. I know I saw 1890..........
3TM
1890 is linked to 1886. 1886,1887,1888,1889,1890. 1891 would be linked to 1895 1891,1892,1893,1894,1895. if the last no. is a 1 it goes with a 5 and 6 it linked to 0.
I wonder why the No.3 Line is getting the Pelham Cars. I was told to expect the R62A will start disappearing this mouth but I was told there were going to the No.7 Line.
Well that is 10 cars that the 3 have from the 6 line....
1900,1899,1898,1897,1896 are the other 5
3TM
1891-95 are still over at Pelham..... I spotted them yesterday.
-Stef
Also, all ex Pelham Units, 1901-15, that were sent over to the 3 now have blue stickers. Does anyone know why 1910 hasn't had it's standard size operator's cab converted into a full width cab? Someone must have forgot.
Another peculiar item: I can't understand why 3 Trains only have transverse cabs at one end of the train. Are the shop crews going to convert any other cars assigned to the 3 to full width cabs? Any car ending with the digit 1,5,6, and 0 have the transverse cab, but there are none beyond 1960.
-Stef
I saw 1914 yesterday and it still had a yellow sticker...
3TM
Oops. I guess not all cars have the blue stickers yet.... Sorry!!!
-Stef
BTW, I saw the 1886-1890 set this morning at Wall St. This time it was heading to Brooklyn.......
3TM
1881-85 are running on the OPTO 5 Shuttle.
-Stef
My brother reported that he saw a train of redbirds on the 6 leaving 51st Street that had black and green stripes under the car number in addition to the yellow. Why are there cars from these yards on the 6? I've heard rumors that this is leading up to the big car shuffle when the R142s arrive.
Because two Pelham R62A trains move to #5 for OPTO, two Redbird trains from either 239 Street Yard or E180 Street Yard have to go to supplement #6 line.
Chaohwa
Are the R-62s and R-68s capable of automatic operation, or is that just the R-44s and R-46s.
There is nothing on the system that is capable of ATO.
The R44 and R46 orders were delivered with ATO gear in
varying degrees of functionality which was stripped over
the years and eventually removed altogether during GOH.
Any car is "capable" of automatic operation. It is simply how much money you want to spend on implementation.
As I was riding PATCO today, I noticed some very heavy tilt around the Camden portals. It was pretty cool. Does anyone know of the trains around that have the best tilt mechanisms?
As for PATCO, I think it is a great line for railfans, with speed, a nice view, and everything. But the only things I don't like are the fare collection system and the screeeeeeeeeeeeching that the Budd cars make when they go around curves. The screeching and the motorman's cab covering are different (curtain on Budds vs. glass on Vickers) Does anyone know any other differences.
But anyway, PATCO is far better than SEPTA RRD, and it is a shame that they do not want to expand.
Forgive my stream of conciousness writing.
Ahh yes, that wonderful "roller coaster" turn on PATCO. No, that's not a super secret Acela prototype, that's the track!
I HATE the fare collection system. I was once trapped in Patco for a while because the %^&$% turnstile wouldn't eat my farecard. Man, those things are acient!!! I poped the card in the slot, ands it flashed (with lighted signs) "Error 6" or something like that.
UGH!!!!
And I called the self help line there - person sugessted I keep trying. About 5 min of trying later, it *finally* worked.
My friend, after watching this, just hopped the turnstile - can you get arrested for hopping a turnstile out of the system?
As far as Septa? They have the ultra cool MP-85s, so I like them better :)
I HATE the fare collection system. I was once trapped in Patco for a while because the %^&$% turnstile wouldn't eat my farecard. ... My friend, after watching this, just hopped the turnstile - can you get arrested for hopping a turnstile out of the system?
I can't imagine any sort of officer that would go to the trouble, as long as you had the right card. I've been in that situation before, and I just waved at the camera and jumped it. I paid the right fare, so I figured I could defend myself if somehow confronted about it.
As far as Septa? They have the ultra cool MP-85s, so I like them better :)
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the MP-85? Is that model designation for the Norristown High-Speed Line (Rt. 100) cars?
/*Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the MP-85? Is that model designation for the Norristown
High-Speed Line (Rt. 100) cars?
*/
*thwap!* :)
No, that's the Silverliner II (or III?) early 60's vintage, ignitron rectifier tubes, and more fun stuff. Really cool cars, though I've yet to be on one :(
I thought the MP-85 designation was given to the Pioneer III cars (which later became Silverliner I's). All 4 of these are now retired.
No, it also applies to the later Silverliner II (or III?) cars.
AFIK, the Pioneer IIIs were failures. What were Pioneer I and II?
Ay, and if a 10-ride ticket gets out of whack, they send you to hard
labor for 10 years.
Well, not really, but they don't just exchange it. I'd heard that
you have to send it in, wait for a replacement, etc etc. :(
And how about that 0% discount! 2 ride * 5 $ = 10 ride ticket $.
I'm still tring to figure out Patco's do-si-do with the Spur. Anyone
have the Philly track maps?
But what a system. Fast, efficient, (fairly) clean, convenient, BUDD
cars!
The spur was par of the original Bridge trains to Camden, NJ. When PATCO was built they built a new station for the spur and the original connections were severed in favor of connecting the bridge tracks to the Locust Street Subway.
I'm sure BobW can go into more dteails.
Right - my question is how do the tracks weave around them? Why can I
see the (Chinatown?) spur station from Patco as I head into Jersey?
Ok, debate time: I thought Patco
> Ok, debate time: I thought Patco
Oops. Somehow my mouse clicked Post Message before I proofed it. :D
Ignore that bit.
As for PATCO, I think it is a great line for railfans, with speed, a nice view, and everything.
But the only things I don't like are the fare collection system and the screeeeeeeeeeeeching
that the Budd cars make when they go around curves.
Ah, "moosical" cars! The more a train screeches, the more I like it! At which curve in PATCO are they in their best voices? I find here in NYC that almost ANY IRT car will be in fine voice on the stretch from Chambers Street to Nevins Street, with numerous dizzying curves. Over in Division "B", R32 "E" trains sing their song northbound out of 50th Street. And Slant R40s can be found howling like banshees on the "N" from Whitehall to Canal Streets, esp. north of Cortlandt Street, a double-90-degree "S" curve. There are lots of other places where they haven't put track sprayers in yet, thank goodness.
No I'm not crazy, I just love wheel noise. It's part of the experience.
Wayne
No I'm not crazy, I just love wheel noise. It's part of the experience.
Wayne
There's alot of subway sounds that I liked that aren't around anymore. One is spur-cut bull and pinion gears on the pre-war cars, another is the clickety clack of a train going over non-welded rail, yet another was the noisy ride you got in the summer on non-air conditioned equipment, when all the end doors (except front and back, of course) were open, along with all the windows. Yes, I too like the screeching of a train going around a curve. All those sounds are part of riding the subway. I also liked the old PA systems (1960's) with the really poor audio that sounds like the conductor was holding his nose with one hand and cupping his other hand over his lips as he was talking into the crude mic. It sounds rediculous, but when you get used to something, the modern replacement just isn't the same.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Budd cars have skirting between the trucks while the Vickers "copies" don't. This is perhaps the difference that's easiest to spot when viewing the cars from the outside (but not useful if you're on a platform, where you will not see this). The seating is also slightly different.
The Budd single units have the half-door behind each cab. This is rarely used. I've heard a few explanations of why this door was placed on the single units. None of them seem to fully explain why.
If you want to see the trains tilt (and this is purely a chance thing), ride a train that stops at the "tower" just east of Broadway, where the tracks leave the subway but are just about to enter the I-76 underpass. There is a small platform here for official use only. The cars are into a fairly superelevated section here and a stopped train is tilted fairly noticably. I've done this several times.
As far as jumping the turnstile, I wouldn't suggest it if you're entering the system. PATCO is fairly diligent about enforcement and they'll catch you sooner or later. I've heard a few stories about this.
The tilt I experienced was just where you indicated, and happened both ways. I don't think the train actually stopped there, but it moved very slowly in that area, and the operator seemed to honk every couple seconds. The only part of the system as slow as that part would be between 8th Street and the bridge.
As for jumping the turnstiles, I did that once to get out, but after I had paid full fare, and had a defective ticket. It was at 9th/10th Street. Another time that happened, I showed my ticket to a policeman and he let me out. PATCO seems to have plenty of policemen.
More questions:
1. Is any part of the system single track (my only guess would be between 8th and the bridge, but I can't really tell from a railfan seat for some reason)?
2. What is top speed?
3. Wayside singnals..Lunar white, flashing...
IIRC, between 8th and the bridge the ROW is separated so it appears to be single track, but it is not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On systems that use cab signaling, lineside signals serve as switch indicators. A steady lunar white indicates that the switch is "normal". A flashing LW indicates "diverging route". A steady Red indicates "No Route. Do Not Enter".
Metro North Has been borrowing Loco #064 from the TA for quite a while now, but my question is, how did they get it there.
There is no connection in Grand Central, Did they have to take it up from Penn Via Sputyen Duyvil?
Fred
It could have gone through E180th st right onto the Amtrak line reverse to New Rochelle then down to GCT. This is if the connection was in at that time.
That was a possibility, but that connection hadn't been used in years. As it is right now the ramp leading down into the NEC was torn up in anticipation that a new bus depot would be built. Now it seems that the rest of the structure is about to be demolished as the concrete roadbed has been ripped out in ine section.
The best way for them to get around would have been through the Piers from 38th St Yard or through Linden Yard, the Bay Ridge Line to Fresh Pond, and then by the Freight Line to the Bridge and over into the Bronx at Oak Point Yard. As a matter of fact, I think they might have even used the Port Morris Connector to drop the loco at Mott Haven Junction!!! This time though, I expect that the loco will travel around the Harlem River Connector to get back. The only question that I have is where Metro North could leave the locomotive this time around, if CSX is not using the old Port Morris Connector frequently. If anything, loco 64 might go up to Croton North to be interchanged with CSX or CP.
-Stef
The latter was how they moved OEL-04 to the LIRR for a project in the East River Tunnels about four years ago. By the way is 64 the South Brooklyn spare with the switching steps. I remember one spare for SBK that always had them instead of the side ladders, a big no-no in railroad territory. I'd assume the 64 now has cab signalling and timing valves installed too. Nice job done for a locomotive the TA will eventually demand back.
What type of engine is this?
It's a GE 50 tonner built in the 1960s. That is, it's classified as a diesel locomotive and works around the NY City Transit System, in work trains (carrying work equipment), and special moves, such as the delivery of new subway cars.
-Stef
Exact class is GE SL-35. It's rated at 335 HP.
Oh? I always thought it was 57. I can recall seeing 57 coupled to N1 and N2 and pulling a set of R27/30s on the Bay Ridge Line during the Willy B Closure in 1988. Last I heard, 57 went over to Staten Island.
As for 64 it spends most time around GCT, so I believe that it lacks the cab signalling equipment. This locomotive is not permitted to travel past Morris Heights station on the Hudson Line. Is that possible? If it lacks the cab signalling equipment, then it would probably have to run with something else.
-Stef
It is mostly used within GCT itself. I've always seen her parked there, never on the road. Metro North is ordering new locos for GCT I believe, a blurb was in Railpace a month ago or so and 64 would come back to TA I ass-u-me.
Is the track book still available at the Grand Central Terminal Visitor Center? If it is, what version is it? How much does it cost? I would've sent Peter $35.00 by mail but I have a slight phobia of sending anything through mail, especially to Canada. Thanks.
Go to Transit Musuem Shop at Grand Central Treminal & it cost $29.99 plus tax. I have the book & it is great.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
>>Is the track book still available at the Grand Central Terminal Visitor Center? If it is, what version is it? How much does it cost? I would've sent Peter $35.00 by mail but I have a slight phobia of sending anything through mail, especially to Canada. Thanks.<<
---------
Trust me, you can send International Postal Money Order (orange color) to Peter in Canada, I've done this twice before (ordered 2 editions of his excellent track book! and the way he takes extra care in packaging the book!)
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
Same here, get an international money order from the Post Office, it is less than a $1.00 (US). IT's a great book.
You want the 2nd edition of 1/15/99 because it includes yard maps. If you order from the TA Museum 718-243-7230 ask what you'll get free with your order (orders of $30 or 35 entitles you to something free ... I got a poster of the first 77 MetroCards last year).
If you visit one of the 3 stores Times Sq. is the smallest and may not have the book.
Mr t__:^)
And if you are a member of the Transit Musuem see if they will take 10% off!!
Does the Museum do mail order??????
[Does the Museum do mail order??????]
Y-E-S ... I was trying to make that very point by giving the phone number.
BTW, The order I was talking about involved some very nice SERVICE by the museum folks in Brooklyn. My order arrived without the free poster, plus the track book had a couple of missing pages. When I called Brooklyn about it, I happened to mention that I was comming into the city from LI to drop my son off at Penn Stn. The museum employee said he would be willing to drop off the book & poster at the Times Sq. store where I could pick it up that Saturday AM. He did, I did. And I'm not even a member ! Nice folks there, incl. our Stef who will give you a tour when he's their.
Mr t__:^)
Don't ever worry about going through the mail to Canada. I've been doing business with Canadians for years, and NEVER a problem.
Just be glad Peter doesn't live in Mexico. Now THAT is a postal system to be leery of, unfortunately.
If you think Mexico s mail is bad try the Philippines. I sent my niece a poster of Mickey Mouse (she lives in Manila) and it never got there. But a letter mailed the same day did. If anyone goes to Manila try their elevated LRT(built in Belgium) Fast and Fun, when it runs
I bought the last copy they had on the shelf sometime in late december.
Great Book!
Just returned home after spending time in the DC area last week. Some observations about WAMATA Metro lines:
(1) Stations still nice to look at, cars clean and in good condition.
(2) Automated "doors closing" message is a drag after a while, but it is not doubt an ADA requirement for visually impaired persons.
(3) I rode the Green Line between Greenbelt and L'Enfant Plaza. The last two Maryland stations (Greenbelt and College Park) are adjacent to MARC commuter rail stations and offer some potentially great railfan pictures if you can get a MARC train speeding alongside Metro trains. Fort Totten is a really unique station with its half open/half closed lower level platform.
(4) The $5 daily tourist pass is not nearly as good as NY's, because it is not good before 0930 hours and is not good on any bus routes.
(5) Maximum train length on the Orange and Red Lines appeared to be 6 cars.
(6) Vienna (west end of Orange Line) suffers from chronic parking shortage because it has a large catchment area - a very popular destination. Orange Line is fun because you can speed along passing cars stuck in traffic on I-66.
(7) In general, a well run system from user and tourist point of view. Fare system, however, is still too complicated. From railfan view, lacks the character of the older systems in North America, but definitely worth seeing.
Andy, Did you try your MetroCard in the dip/swipe slots ?
Did you notice folks using Smart Cards ?
Buses are still using an old system (not Cubic) ?
Did you see any trackless trolleys ?
Mr t__:^)
I have had a SmarTrip for a year and have only seen 3 people other than me use one (not including those at the ceremony for launching it). No one will get one until it allows subway to bus transfers and more importantly, bus to subway.
Trackless trolleys? They haven't had them in Washington DC in decades.
DC NEVER had Trackless Trolleys. With the DC requirement for no overhead wires in the "old City" (U St/Florida Ave on the North, Potomac River on the South, Anacostia on the East and Georgetown/Wisconsin Ave on the West.) streetcars used conduit, and trackless trolleys would have been an impossibility.
Remember, the trackless trolley is bus with an electric motor.
As Chicago called them, "the buses with the sticks on top."
One transit man one described the trackless trolley as "A vehicle that combines the worst features of the streetcar and the bus. The inflexibility of the streetcar and the bad ride of the bus."
Eye would guess that Baltimore doesn't have any trackless trolleys in their collection ?
Shoreline @ Branford has one. I hope that one day somehow they restore it and run it around the "green" just dow the road from their line. That's a pritty tall order for several reasons, but it on my wish list just the same (maybe it has something to do with my working for a B-U-S company now |:-)
Mr t
We have 2 - a 1939 Pullman and a 1922 Brill Railless Car, both from URE/BTC. No place to run them (yet), both need extreme rebuilding (2078 needs electrical equipment (on hand) and body work, but is towable, and 4001 needs everything - just a body), but amazingly both survived post scrapping - 4001 in 1930 and 2078 in 1958.
Shoreline's also has a Brill, but a little more recent 1947 from SEPTA. It would be a shame if none got saved.
I once suggested that Shoreline could replace the tires with wheels, like they put on MOW trucks. The board member said something about when cows fly ..... Recently they moved it and put a tarp over it so that ONE DAY maybe it can be restored. That's good.
Mr t__:^)
Hi Thurston - Happy Y2K!
I only used my farecard (a $5 one day pass) in the traditional manner - in the entry slot, out the top slop as the gates opened.
Did not ride any buses but apparently there are still no bus to subway transfers, and the old style paper transfer used for subway to bus transfers with a value of 85 cents towards the bus fare. My $5 card was not good for any bus trips. There is a $2.50 one day unlimited bus ticket that can be purchased on the bus - versus a $1.10 local bus fare.
Did not see many folks using SmartCards - apparently they must be purchased off site but can be refilled in stations.
DC never had trackless trolleys, but did have a large, all PCC trolley fleet that covered the District and some nearby parts of Maryland. Originally Capital Transit Co., it became DC Transit (O. Roy Chalk) in about 1955. Between 1958 and 1962 it was entirely replaced by diesel buses at the insistence of the US Congress, which held the power of the franchise. Unique feature of DC trolleys - routes in the central part of DC used an underground conduit system similar to Manhattan's old trolley routes.
Thanks Andy for the additional detail. A previous Cubic (farebox mfg) news letter gave the impression that Washington was farther along with their IFU (i.e. farebox) on the buses. BTW, a SubTalk friend purchased a Wash. D.C. SmartTrip card for me, so the next time I visit Bill & Hillery I'm all set to just go NEAR the turnstiles.
P.S. Just got the "Final 1999" issue of Cubic newsletter. Nothing about Washington, but several articles about various Smart Cards, e.g. Hong Kong, NYC (yes photo of George Pataki holding one)
{will read the articles and post seperately if anything about NYC getting Smart Cards}
Mr t__:^)
The #40 (East Capitol Street) and #42 ("C" and "D" Streets NE) Mount Pleasant trolleys were among the last to be replaced - I remember riding on them as late as 1961. Don't know what the last one to go was. I was sure sorry to see them go - Mom couldn't break it to me that the trolleys were gone and buses had taken over - Grandma "Hush" had to do it. Of course I got over it, but buses weren't the same as the trolleys. Then the years went by and 1978 came - Grandpa Louie had died and we were down in DC for his funeral. During our stay there, I rode Metro for the first time, going from Eastern Market to National Airport and back. Metro has become a very important part of every visit to DC that I make, the last being October 11-12, 1999.
Wayne
Has anyone seen any of those four cars lately?
Are 2576, 2577 and 2578 still single cars waiting for their sister to be patched up?
Thanks!
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
I don't think we do. I visited an office for an interview on Lex yesterday. I took LIRR to Woodside, got on the #7, got off at GCT, and I was there in 15 minutes.
Don't most Long Island commuters who need east side access do that already?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, the real issue isn't east side access, it's trains into the City.
Facts:
There are no more rush hour "slots" into Penn Station. If the LIRR wants to add a train it has to drop another one. This has already happened.
NJT wants to add more trains into Penn.
Metro North wants to add trains into Penn.
People in Queens want more service. This can't be done without adding currently blocked trains.
Amtrak wants to add service, and Amtrak trumps everybody since they own the station. They can just take slots. They've already done so, even though LIRR carries the great majority of passengers on about 40% of the tracks.
Yet they make this seem to be a question of east side access. I don't know why.
OK, but if you do build a connection to GCT, you'll need a Second Avenue subway, since the Lex is a t crush level in the rush hours now.
Yet, Pataki could give a !@#$, and Clinton hasn't shown much resolve to gte federal funding. Who knows what W. would do if he gets in.
I am one of those people who believe we will never have a Second Avenue subway because even in these tims when there is a lot of money around, there's no real momentum toward building one. And when the next recession comes, that'll be the end of any Second Avenue subway.
>>>People in Queens want more service. This can't be done without adding currently blocked trains. <<
I belive the LIRR would write off Queens if they could. Its stations are in disrepair and Queens is the first to be sacrificed in potential emergencies like the potential transit strike...
[I belive the LIRR would write off Queens if they could. Its stations are in disrepair and Queens is the first to be sacrificed in
potential emergencies like the potential transit strike...]
They'd rather pack the trains with Nassau and Suffolk riders from higher fare zones.
I belive the LIRR would write off Queens if they could. Its stations are in disrepair and Queens is the first to be sacrificed in potential emergencies like the potential transit strike...
Kevin, the LIRR would write off everybody if they could.
The three most important Queens stations ridership-wide are Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and Woodside. All three have been rebuilt and had new platforms (Woodside full 12-car platforms) built in the last few years. Service to these stations has been increased and regularized, including in rush hour.
Trains from Nassau and Suffolk are mostly packed. Where is the capacity for Queens riders, who use the most jammed part of the resource (Jamaica-Penn) but pay the lowest fares?
The answer is new mainline capacity which is answered (badly, IMHO) by GCT access. GCT access is held hostage by City interests--then the City complains they don't have enough LIRR service.
GCT is not a great idea. It goes counter to Amtrak's reasonable theory, that in-city terminals should be consolidated, not splintered. GCT-LIRR access will force more people to change trains to get to their desired destinations, a really bad idea.
GCT is not a great idea. It goes counter to Amtrak's reasonable theory, that in-city terminals should be consolidated, not splintered.
GCT-LIRR access will force more people to change trains to get to their desired destinations, a really bad idea.
Is Amtrak really in a position to evaluate the requirements for in-city terminals? The most they have ever run into a single station is 3 or 4 trains per hour. I would assume that the operational dynamics and economics would change significantly, when you try to increase that number ten fold.
slAMTRAK has saved a ton of money moving out of GCT and having direct cross platform (well maybe almost cross platform) connections from Empire Service to the rest of the country. They saved not just in cutting the manpower from GCT but the RENT as well since they own NYP.
Amtrak might want to get back into GCT so that they can run Acela trains in there. It's possible that there's enough of a market to have trains into both stations, at least from New Haven and Newark.
Is anyone aware of how many tracks are available at GCT?
At least a dozen. There is almost no service on the lower level at the present time, and the upper level tracks are seriously underutilized.
The LIRR could take over the entire lower level, releasing some space in Penn in the process. This would directly benefit LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT, while providing better utilization of GCT. MN would benefit as well by having costs spread across another carrier and would also benefit slightly from the LI/upstate connection.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If we utilize all of Grand Central where is Lex Luthor from Superman going to live?
The abandoned platforms at 86th street under Park Avenue? (Those at least still have access to the surface.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>The LIRR could take over the entire lower level, releasing some space in Penn in the process. This would directly benefit LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT, while providing better utilization of GCT. MN would benefit as well by having costs spread across another carrier and would also benefit slightly from the LI/upstate connection.
That's what I figured the plan would be when I first heard about "East Side Access"; but instead they're putting in new platforms in Madison Avenue Yard (and moving the yard operations to the Bronx). It beats me why, unless MTA figures having the lower level in constant use would detract from their new food court.
I have the impression from the document on the TA website
(http://www.nyct.org/planning/esas/3description.htm) that there might not even be a track connection between the new LIRR station and Grand-Central-as-we-know-it. Stupefying, no?
Amazing. But typical of what we have come to expect from the MTA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[That's what I figured the plan would be when I first heard about "East Side Access"; but instead they're putting in new platforms in Madison Avenue Yard (and moving the yard operations to the Bronx). It beats me why, unless MTA figures having the lower level in constant use would detract from their new food court.
I have the impression from the document on the TA website
(http://www.nyct.org/planning/esas/3description.htm) that there might not even be a track connection between the new LIRR station and Grand-Central-as-we-know-it. Stupefying, no?]
The other thing I don't understand is why they're tunneling under/next to the existing MN tunnels. Since GCT is only half used, I assume they have plenty of capacity--wouldn't it be more economical to skip that mile of tunneling?
The other thing I don't understand is why they're tunneling under/next to the existing MN tunnels. Since GCT is only half used, I
assume they have plenty of capacity--wouldn't it be more economical to skip that mile of tunneling?
incompatible 3rd rail systems
Both LIRR and MetroNorth have some trains they lay over in the city and use only for rush hours, and some trains they keep running back and forth all day. I assumed that with all its capacity, LIRR would use GCT as a terminal, and run into and out of Penn all day, but I'm told its just the opposite. The LIRR will get just a few tracks at GCT, and will have to pull them out as fast as they go in.
What is the plan.
You misinterpreted my remarks. I have no doubt that the Penn Sta move was correct for Amtrak. My point was that concentration of in-terminal facilities might not necessarily be good for commuter rail lines given the vast difference in operational requirements.
Is Amtrak really in a position to evaluate the requirements for in-city terminals?
They own Penn Station--they say their needs come first and aren't shy in letting everyone know it. LIRR has done everything they can to make the most of the 8 tracks available to them (a few of which Amtrak also uses). They shuffle trains like crazy in and out of their tracks to/from the West Side Yard.
OTOH, you'll see Amtrak leisurely parking trains on other tracks as though they have all the space in the world...
From a quality of life perspective, LIRR to GCT makes sense because more LIRR riders could avoid the subway, taking mintues off their trip. You could just go into GCT and walk.
As for packing the Lex, as I've said, I'd make the discounted combined monthly ticket -- Metrocard not functional there. That would encourage those who want to transfer to the subway to go to Penn or Atlantic Avenue and not GCT. If running LIRR trains to GCT allows MetroNorth to go to Penn, I'd do the same to MetroNorth riders.
Amtrak sure does make sloppy use of Penn. I usually see a few Amtrak trains standing there, but rarely any NJT or LIRR ones, esp durring rush hour.
On top of that, amtrak really hasn't kept Penn that nice. I see they are, however, installing a new, even lower ceiling on the lower level. And their "updates" to the upper level (I love the blue and grey flooring, but the pattern looks like bad patchwork in places). but penn's still a dumpy looking place, esp compaired to 30th street, Union in DC, South station in Boston...
It'd be real nice if the MTA or someone else could get their hands on Penn, and cut Amtrak's useage down to an appropriate size. They're the smallest of the RRs going there. IMHO, NJT and the LIRR should get priority over the useage of the tracks, and Amtrak should get 2 or 3 - much more appropriate for the # of trains they run in / out of there.
Also, they're teraing up the Post Office across the street...for AMTRAK???? I know Amtrak thinks they're the most important thing on the planet, but do they REALLY need a whole, sepperate, terminal for the 3 or so traind an hour they run in / out of NYC?
Then again, these problems might not last long, unless by some miracle amtrak achives and keeps self sufficentcy in 2002.
But my question is - if not, who gets Penn? MTA? PA? NYC?
[GCT is not a great idea. It goes counter to Amtrak's reasonable theory, that in-city terminals should be consolidated, not splintered. GCT-LIRR access will force more people to change trains to get to their desired destinations, a really bad idea.]
If Penn had the capacity to handle everything, and hadn't been reduced to a glorified subway station, that would make a lot of sense. We should really have two stations, one in Midtown and one in Lower Manhattan, with trains of all kinds making thru stops at both and subway lines fanning out from there.
But since things weren't built that way, and Penn doesn't have the capacity, it seems to me we need a new paradigm for commuter RR access to the City, with trains making multiple stops in the business districts that link with the subway lines. One crosstown link could serve Midtown via 34th St., another Lower Manhattan running across from the WTC, with trains that have lower frequency heading to the existing terminals or serving only the Midtown run.
A Lower Manhattan connection w/LIRR would be a more sensible approach -- if it weren't for the vast congestion of both business, and infrastructure in that area, which makes a physical LIRR terminal connection down there an impossiblity. Had that been done around the time of all that grade elimination planning just after the turn of the 20th Century, it might have been possible.
I think an idea along those lines was a proposed extension of the LIRR Atlantic Ave Branch that would have not terminated at Flatbush, but rather continued done along Atlantic, entering a tube under the East River and then terminating somewhere near Bowling Green.
Doug aka BMTman
[ Lower Manhattan connection w/LIRR would be a more sensible approach -- if it weren't for the vast congestion of both business, and infrastructure in that area, which makes a physical LIRR terminal connection down there an impossiblity. Had that been done around the time of all that grade elimination planning just after the turn of the 20th Century, it might have been possible.
I think an idea along those lines was a proposed extension of the LIRR Atlantic Ave Branch that would have not terminated at Flatbush, but rather continued done along Atlantic, entering a tube under the East River and then terminating somewhere near Bowling Green.]
Actually, the situation doesn't seem to be that bad--the Lower Manhattan Access Project did an engineering study for an LIRR station and found several possible locations, one I think on Water Street and the other at the World Trade Center; the main criterion seems to be that they're out of the way of the superficial subway tunnels. The station would offer only through service, since there's no room for a yard.
The study didn't consider transportation from New Jersey.
You could still get an LIRR train into Manhattan along Water Street, if the northernmost tracks at Atlantic Ave. were extended north towards Pratt Institute, and then across the river around where the Manhattan Bridge is. That way, the only lines that would have to be crossed would be the G and the F, instead of the underground mixmaster around Borough Hall.
In hindsight, it would have been better if the MTA had built just a single level 63rd St. tunnel and put the bi-levle one beneath the Manhattan Bridge, with one level hooking up the B/D/Q between DeKalb Ave. and Canal/Grand St., while the other could be used for LIRR trains, which could come in around Pike Street, turn west on Madison to St. James Place/Pearl St., and then from there south on Pearl to the Fulton St./South Street Seaport area.
Connection to lower Manhattan??
Remember you're talking about a railroad that won't even reopen the station on rt. 110 with all the new businesses in the area!!
No one can deny that the LIRR is rather tight fisted with the dollar.
Doug aka BMTman
I said "In hindsight" as in, they should have thought of this in 1970, just after Rocky and Ronana got their hands on all of Bob Moses' TBTA money.
(Should have thought of this when Rocky and Rona got hold of Bob Moses Money)
Orignally Moses was supposed to have a role in the MTA, but then they pushed him out. Moses problem is that he came up with his ideas in the 1920s and steamrolled ahead for 50 years without noticing things had changed.
Too bad they couldn't convince him to turn his energies to mass transit, then turn him loose. We'd have had that the LIRR to GCT and the 2nd Avenue by 1973, before the fiscal crisis hit.
[Connection to lower Manhattan??
Remember you're talking about a railroad that won't even reopen the station on rt. 110 with all the new businesses in the area!!]
One thing the MTA is never cheap about--studies!
The increase of riders on the Lex could be offset by the decrease of riders on the "7" train as less people would be using Woodside, Hunterspoint Av, and LIC with direct access to Grand Central.
Actually for the Lex there is a net loss of passengers at Grand Central. From Table 9D-9 of the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS:
Number of passengers entering Grand Central from the north:
(25 x 1195) + (22 x 879) = 49,213.
Number of passengers leaving Grand Central in downtown direction:
(24 x 1119) + (21 x 615) = 39,771
[Actually for the Lex there is a net loss of passengers at Grand Central. From Table 9D-9 of the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS:
Number of passengers entering Grand Central from the north:
(25 x 1195) + (22 x 879) = 49,213.
Number of passengers leaving Grand Central in downtown direction:
(24 x 1119) + (21 x 615) = 39,771]
Interesting figures. The estimates I've seen suggest that the 63rd Street connection will add 6000 passengers to the Lex during rush hour. Even if there's a net loss of passengers at GCT, those extra 6000 people will further slow the line, and as the line slows its capacity will go down further. It's already broken, with constant delays and trains skipping stops, so I can only see it getting broken worse.
Seems to me that if they aren't going to build a Second Avenue Subway, and it sure doesn't look like they are, and if they're actually running all the trains they can on the Lex, they should ticket door holders, lengthen the platforms, and improve the signal system as necessary; otherwise we're just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
As has been said, the LIRR to GCT is being built so Long Islanders can walk from the terminal to their jobs on the East Side, not so they can pack on the Lex.
The commuter railroads now offer discouted combined monthly tickets/Metrocards. These should be made unusable at the GCT subway stop. If Metro North gains access to Penn Station, then those people who have to get on a subway anyway (ie. to go Downtown) will have an incentive to travel to Penn (or Flatbush). You'll be taking more MetroNorth riders out of GCT than putting LIRR riders in.
Otherwise, the share of Long Islanders trying to get to GCT will to huge, and you'll have empty cars to Penn.
I believe that to be fair much of the Second Ave should be built with the LIRR to GCT. But the crowding link between the two has been overplayed by advocates.
[As has been said, the LIRR to GCT is being built so Long Islanders can walk from the terminal to their jobs on the East Side, not so they can pack on the Lex.
The commuter railroads now offer discouted combined monthly tickets/Metrocards. These should be made unusable at the GCT subway stop. If Metro North gains access to Penn Station, then those people who have to get on a subway anyway (ie. to go Downtown) will have an incentive to travel to Penn (or Flatbush). You'll be taking more MetroNorth riders out of GCT than putting LIRR riders in.
Otherwise, the share of Long Islanders trying to get to GCT will to huge, and you'll have empty cars to Penn.
I believe that to be fair much of the Second Ave should be built with the LIRR to GCT. But the crowding link between the two has been overplayed by advocates.]
But how many will actually walk to their jobs? It can be quite a distance, depending.
While I can't judge the MTA's methodology, the 6,000 additional passengers estimate for the Lex doesn't sound unreasonable to me, given the number of passengers who are predicted to use GCT. For many people heading downtown, it will be a much shorter, faster route. If the Lexington Avenue weren't slightly over the edge of a breakdown, it wouldn't be a problem. As it is, it seems to me that it could be accomodated comfortably without the Second Avenue Subway, but only with some investment in the Lex.
From what I understand, though, the additional load could be accomodated by the Lexington Avenue if they put some money into it.
Actually my belief -- after alot of thought -- is that GCT LIRR service would be a waste of money. Reason: it would only serve rush-hour Suburban users, because the eastside has no afterhours or weekend attractions (unlike the westside that has Times Square, Jacob Javits and MSG). The GCT-LIRR connection would be dead on weekends. It would cost more to build that it is worth.
Manhattan on the eastside in the area of Grand Central is a ghost town on weekends. LIRR service between there and Jamaica would run near empty trains. Off-hours during the week would be much the same.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the reason for the Grand Central access is to have more access in Manhattan for the LIRR. Penn is filled to capacity and with more dual mode trains going to Manhattan they need more space for them.
The SARGE-my homepage my trainbuff page
If the LIRR to GCT is built, Long Island will be a more attractive place to live for those with high paying jobs in Manhattan relative to, say, New Jersey. Property values will rise, and the deterioration of some towns may stop or reverse. Long Island really, really needs this. A lot of its housing will hit 50 years old in the next 20 years, and things are iffy.
If the LIRR to GCT is built AND the Manhattan Bridge is cut off, Brooklyn's quality of life will fall, and you'll get an exodus. That's why I'm in favor of a plan with something for everyone. Let's expand the vitality and quality of life in the region in the aggregate, rather than just moving it around.
The East Side Access project also makes some real use out of the
63rd st tunnel. The TA's line is and will be just another duplication
of existing services provided through the 60th st and 53rd st tunnels.
Or look at it this way, the TA is building just another way to get
from Queens Blvd to Sixth ave or Broadway.
The LIRR link at least will provide a new service that is not
currently offered. It will be nice to get some benefit from the tunnel
at last.
Entertain me,
Is there any more room at Penn to build additional
tracks?
I'm pretty sure that all the current tracks are at
least at capacity. What would be useful would be if
there were more room to construct tracks at Penn. If
such a thing may happen under this new Penn Station
project, the LIRR-GCT may not have to be built.
Let's all face it-there will never be a 2nd Avenue
subway downtown and if all those downtown LIRR
commuters take the Lex, disaster will ensue.
The best choice is to bring more capacity to Penn.
Can the 7th and 8th Avenue lines handle more crowds?
It's much easier to transfer to different trains
there than at GCT because most of the subway lines
are on the west side anyway. If enough people went
to the Broadway line, that would be an excuse to
bring back express service.
Riders to the 8th Avenue could take that to the WTC
or the financial district via Broadway/Nassau-Fulton depending on which side of downtown you work on.
7th Avenue riders would get the same deal.
It would be easier on the west side because there are more lines to accmodate more people. Cramming 150,000 people onto 9 routes(6th, 7th and 8th at rush hour) is easier than putting them all on 3(Lexington) running on the same line.
And you'd get even more on the west side with
Broadway expresses.
Is there any more room at Penn to build additional tracks?
No, there's not. If there were it would have been done years ago, if only for train storage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We need East Side Access so middle income and affluent people who might otherwise move to Brooklyn will instead move to Nassau and Suffolk counties after the Manhattan Bridge fails. We need NJT access to Grand Central for the same reason -- to push the middle-class out of the city AGAIN.
Of course, even if we replaced the Manhattan Bridge, we'd still need East Side Access to improve the quality of life in the region as a whole. But for now its a re-distribution plan.
[middle income and affluent people who might otherwise move to Brooklyn will instead move to Nassau and Suffolk counties after the Manhattan Bridge fails. ]
You're right, I'd leave Park Slope if my treasured D-Train was only a shuttle to DeKalb. But I would not go to the suburbs. I think I speak for many middle-income and affluent urbanites when I say that we choose to live in the city more for the fun of it than for the easy commute. I'd simply move to Manhattan, not to the dreaded land of Highways and Turnpikes.
[We need East Side Access so middle income and affluent people who might otherwise move to Brooklyn will instead move to Nassau and Suffolk counties after the Manhattan Bridge fails. We need NJT access to Grand Central for the same reason -- to push the middle-class out of the city AGAIN.]
There's always a balancing act here between making the City more attractive to businesses that depend on commuters and making the suburbs more attractive to middle class residents. The State knows the City is its cash cow, but its answer to that seems to be to favor projects that help City businesses while screwing City residents.
Nevertheless, I'm leery about drawing the drawbridge too tight. The City is larger than its boundaries. We have to think as a region.
I'll flip the coin--NYC has a veto on the MTA's capital program, so why the hell don't we take a clue from the upstate Republicans and veto their roads unless the formula is changed to be fair to City residents?
Why do we complain about middle class residents moving to the suburbs when we don't provide them parity in schooling, taxes, and services?
Why do we spend so damn much on Medicaid, and then complain because the state makes us pay 25%?
Etc.
I'm not convinced that the LIRR needs access to Grand Central today, but I do think that it will become necessary over the next decade or so.
Most LIRR commuters heading to the east side take the train into Penn and then take the E train over to east side (if they work in the 50's or high 40's) or they walk from Penn (if they work in the 30's). There are probably quite a few who go 1 stop on the 1/2/3/9 and then take the shuttle or 7 also. Taking the LIRR to Woodside and taking the 7 is probably the fastest way -- but only if your train stops at Woodside. Most rush-hour trains from branches other than Port Washington skip Woodside.
As Paul pointed out, the need for LIRR to GCT service is to get more LIRR trains into Manhattan. You are also correct in that this potentially could put an even heavier strain on the Lex. While most LIRR passengers who work on the east side would walk from GCT, downtowners would take the Lex. Currently those who work downtown are split between Penn (if you work in the World Trade or World Financial Center) and Flatbush Ave. (if you work further east or south).
Perhaps once the LIRR gains access to GCT, they can bring back the old Zone 1A and 1B pricing that they got rid of in the 80's. (Penn was Zone 1A and had higher fares than Zone 1B -- Flatbush). With lower fares into Brooklyn as the incentive, perhaps the LIRR could keep downtowners from clogging the Lex from GCT.
Chuck
[Perhaps once the LIRR gains access to GCT, they can bring back the old Zone 1A and 1B pricing that they got rid of in the 80's. (Penn was Zone 1A and had higher fares than Zone 1B -- Flatbush). With lower fares into Brooklyn as the incentive, perhaps the LIRR could keep downtowners from clogging the Lex from GCT.]
Not to mention without an Atlantic Ave. terminal that looks like something out of a bad horror movie, or maybe high amenity hybrid superexpress service down the Atlantic Avenue branch and right into lower Manhattan, as per the RPA.
and you may want to stick to transit related subjects since you obviously don't know Chinese History or Culture from a hole in the ground...
It the PRC is so good, why are you here in the USA, To make money.
Some Mofo American always asks this....
Heres my Answer take it and shove it...
I was Born here, I realized how frigged up this pissant country is, and now I'm determined to destroy it from within...while the Motherland destroys it from without...how do you like that answer?
Sure sure death to China and all that...Same to you my friend...The Native Indians will exact revenge on your pale ass too.
Free the South!
Free Texas!
Free New England!
btw...whats your address? i'd like to send you a personal gift of my appreciation ala ex-caccp style.
Hey how do you know that I am not part Native American? You are being very prejudice my friend. But if you want to know the history, The Han have always thought China as the Center of the Earth, and everyone else is inferior. That is why they let everyone walk over them for the past 1000 years, including other Asians way before the Europeans. Learn your history my boy
Following is a list of the original station platform lengths along the IND routes running along the Fulton-Cranberry tubes and Prospect Park. Note that the two elevated stations – Smith-9th Street and Fourth Avenue – are not part of this list because this writer could not ascertain the start and end chaining codes of said stations.
Fulton-Cranberry route:
Broadway-Nassau Street : start 879+00, end 885+60
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge : A1 side start 814+40, end 821+00; A2 side start 815+00, end 821+60 (yet the northernmost and southernmost edges remain straight – I don’t understand it either)
Jay Street-Borough Hall (A and B share trackage on this station) : start 782+45, end 789+05
Prospect Park route:
Bergen Street : start 756+82, end 763+42
Carroll Street : start 732+40, end 739+00
Seventh Avenue (Brooklyn) : start 654+02, end 660+57
15th Street-Prospect Park : start 625+70, end 632+30
Fort Hamilton Parkway : start 585+40, end 591+95
Church Avenue : start 556+95, end 563+55
Next: The Fulton Street line (including the Court Street terminus that now serves as the home of the Transit Museum).
Bergen Street : start 756+82, end 763+42
Please educate me on how to read this i.e. how do I determine the platform length from these codes?
--Mark
In very simple terms you remove the + and subtract the numbers.
IE, (763+42) - (756+82) = 660 feet (11 60'cars or 10 cars with a little envelope)
The chaining marks start from a fixed point.
Joe Korman's website, I believe, has a better explanation. I am not a surveyor but I believe my method will work.
Aha -- if it isn't Conrad Misek, recently freed from the Department of City Planning. I thought I might find you here eventually.
After I talked some people at DCP into thinking that maybe something did need to be done about the bridge, and a study was commissioned, Conrad was put in charge. He did a great literature review piece, but then moved on to another job, and the project has been staggering along ever since.
Conrad: now that you are out from under the bureaucracy, what do you really think about the long term subway prospects of the Manny B, and what should be done about it? I'd be curious to know, before heading into a meeting on the subject next week.
I'm also very curious. Will the Sea Beach ever cross the Manhattan Bridge again, or am I condemned to disappointment as another icon of my Sea Beach memories goes down the drain?
Not until all 4 tracks can be used at the same time. With capacity for only 3 lines, the N train is the odd man out.
The approach sounds reasonable ... thank you!
--Mark
That's the news I read in my local paper, the Flushing Times.
Meanwhile I have assembled some photographs of its decrepit sister station, Broadway, which I use every day and will send them to state Sen. Padavan, who obtained the funds for Auburndale...
LIRR fans: note an ancient entrance sign on the 192nd Street staircase at Auburndale. Its days are numbered now.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hopefully they will extend the platforms. I remember riding an SRO train, then hearing the announcement that I had to change cars. YIKES.
Unfortunately, I think the same NIMBY's who didn't want the 7 train extended also don't want the platforms lengthened.
Having only the first 4 cars at one stop and then only the last 4 at the next stop discourages intra-Queens travel. With short platforms, the LIRR can't become the Northeast Queens subway -- or so the logic goes.
Chuck
Are people in Northeast Queens really THAT bizzare that they wouldn't want better mass transit? My guess is that once again a few SOBs drown out everyone else. There should be a referendum with all kinds of improvments, road and rail, on the budget. Most would pass -- if they failed, too bad for your neighborhood. But at least normal people might vote
I believe the platforms WILL be lengthened as there is room for it on the west side of the present platform.
Murray Hill, another short platform, has to remain short because there's nowhere to go with it.
Bayside has just been lengthened.
Broadway was lengthened at some time in the past (I'm curious what year that was).
Well, just when I thought SEPTA couldn't find another way to waste money and raise fares, they go and surpise me again!
Starting this month, a Swedish pubication group called Transit Publications Inc.(TPI) will begin printing a Monday-Friday daily called TPI Metro PA made specifically for SEPTA riders in the city and western suburbs(basically Regional Rail commuters).
The city's two major papers, the Inquirer and the Daily News, say publically they welcome the challenge but worry it can hurt circulation of their papers, specifically the Inquirer, which has had the largest drop in circulation of any major paper in the country.
There are two dailies, two free weeklies, books, magazines and a host of other newspaper and other print media adjacent to virtually every rail station in SEPTA territory. Why on Earth do they feel the need to print their own daily? Does anyone think it'l be patronized well? I'm really interested to hear what my fellow SEPTA riders think of all this.
The story is availible in the December 30 issue of the City Paper.
Subway Steve's Homepage-now found on the Subway Webring!
Since I live in Stockholm, home of the original (called "Metro"), I'll be interested to see how this works out in Philly.
Metro has been very successful, so far, in Stockholm, Gothenburg (on the west coast of Sweden, the second largest city in the country), Prague, and Malmö (at the southern tip of Sweden, third largest city in Sweden). I used to read it regularly (before I started working full-time on transit, and commuting at hours at which it's either not out yet, or already run out) and like it quite well. I believe they're starting a Dutch edition this year as well.
BTW, unless something is very different in Philadelphia, this isn't SEPTA's initiative, nor its newspaper. In Stockholm, the transit agency has an informational page with news and articles in the weekday issues of Metro, but it pays for that page, and the rest of the paper is just a newspaper pretty much like any other, not a house organ for the transit agency.
When the Philadelphia edition comes out, I'd be interested in getting a copy from someone there -- perhaps we can arrange a trade? Anyone interested in transit stuff of any kind from Stockholm?
-- Tim
Steve, I'll be anxiously awaiting my copy. Being a bus rider, I'll probably only see issues 2-3 months behind their issue date. (You may think I'm kidding, but this fall I was on a bus on my line which had timetables from Jan '98 in the Take One pockets! Not that the schedules change all that drastically, or that they have any validity, but I guess the operator decided to take some initiative and grabbed a handful of schedules at the depot for the racks. Of course, as I noted, several riders grabbed them, probably thinking they were new issues.)
Tim, if I see one, I'll let you know and hopefully will be able to pass it along to you.
That would be terrific, Bob, thanks. If you'd be interested in any transit stuff from Stockholm (maps, schedules, etc.), let me know.
-- Tim
Has there ever been a documented case of a passenger receiving a beatdown or mugging from a group of spirited young people when in an R46 car he/she couldn't escape, because the doors between cars are locked? I'm not worried about it...just curious if anyone is aware of such a case.
I did see someone manage to get stuck between locked cars once. I told the conductor when I got off at the next stop, but didn't wait around to see how long the train was stopped while he walked back to let the guy out.
A woman was raped in the last car of an OPTO G a year ago. Had the doors been unlocked it may not have happened.
The TA has left the storm door windows in rubber rather than metal frames on these cars in the theory that in an emergency they can be kicked out to allow exit.
But you'd have to be both strong enough and smart enough to do it.
Funny, I saw an add today "What if YOU are the sick passenger?" It said to tell the conductor (Or in short trains, the Train Operator). How precisely does one do that on an R-46? You have to get off the train anyway unless you're in the right car, and at that point, why bother getting back on? Does it occur to these people that the only way to communicate with another car is with the emergency cord?
Does it occur to these people that the only way to communicate with another car is with the emergency cord?
If there is a sick passenger, you could use the emer. cord to "communicate." Of course, wait until the train is stopped in the next station, and then pull the cord. Run along the platform to inform the conductor of the trouble.
These cars need emergency intercoms, which I saw were installed on an experimental basis on some R42 J trains about 4-5 years ago. I also think both R110 car types have these systems.
Ah, yes! The good old "Customer Assistance Strips". The strip alerted the crew and activated an alarm which had to be reset by the crew before resuming service. I had that train once and took it out of service after 5 stops. For some time, ENY refused to run that particular train during school hours, but after control center got tired of writing late train and ABD reports, the CAS was removed. No knowledge why our friends in Car Equipment couldn't rewire it to the buzzer circuit.
Wow, I remember those strips..I was in CEE at the time and all I
could do was laugh at the proposals. What the crew needs is
video cameras in the cars so they can see what is happening.
Does anyone remember the long-defunct end door release switches
INSIDE the R-46 cars??
I actually do remember the switches near the top of the car and next to the door. I believe they removed those switches the same time they took out the fire extinguishers that were in the car as well. I question the reliability of the switches on then outside. However, I remember hearing that the police are supposed to have the keys to unlock them in an emergency. Anyone know if that holds true today?
Yeah cops still get keys. Remember that annoying alarm when the button was used? Or if the cord was pulled?
I liked the original switches better. They had a capacitor built in so we could use two hands, one for the wayside radio and the other for the door handle to cross through while changing ends. I remember the alarm on the R46 well. At least they got rid of the skate keys.
Ouch! The alarm...BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP. When were the caps
removed? At the same time as the alarms? The end door
unlocks should be on a momentary circuit like the L1
and H wires, this way you could unlock, change ends and relock.
Or did they do that already?
NOPE! Still need a second man to stand by the key switch while the first walks through.
Well maybe you can submit a circuit via the employee suggestion
program :)
All that's needed is a simple latching relay. Make the contacts in the key switch momentary to facilitate this. problem solved. Soloution ignored.
You need a circuit like the lighting momentary circuit: apply
B+ to the trainline, relay comes on. Let go, relay stays
on via stick circuit with a series resistor. Turn it off by
grounding the trainline. I'm sure if it were suggested it would
get turned down though..
I see you're completely familiar with the Transit Authority's procedures!
[Funny, I saw an add today "What if YOU are the sick passenger?" It said to tell the conductor (Or in short trains, the Train
Operator). How precisely does one do that on an R-46? You have to get off the train anyway unless you're in the right car, and at that point, why bother getting back on? Does it occur to these people that the only way to communicate with another car is with the emergency cord?]
Which is why the TA should be forced (they'll never do it voluntarily) to put emergency notification buttons in every car. PATH has long done it, there's absolutely no reason in the world why the subway can't either. Maybe it'll take a huge judgment to get them moving.
On the Customer Alarm Train of R42's, ran on the J line, there were so many false alarms it was obscene! That is why it was taken out! We have too much vandalism on our trains to make it work properly.
many stations have talk back bnoxes where we can talk from the booth to the platform. Most are false alarms I watch the monitors in the stations where they exist and see the person hit the button and run. If they answer I get " I wanted to see what happened if I pushed this button" or "I did not knwo they worked" or "expletive deleted you!"
Yes- we do answer every call in case they are a real call.
Am I mistaken? I thought she was raped at the Smith 9th St. station after she got off the train.
No, she got on at Smith-9th and it hapened between there and Bergen where the assailant got off.
Or should I say where the police would have apprehended him had the conductor who would have been riding in that car of a four car train been, had it not been an OPTO run.
I wish they would put metal frames around the cab doors on the R46.A few times, I've had to ask people not to lean on the glass. Falling cab door glass is very common.I hear very little about storm door glass falling out.
There is a reason that not only is there no metal frame but the glass is not glass. If you check, you'll also find that the #2 end of the 'A' car and both ends of the 'B' car use poly-carb. end door glass. This is so customers can easily kick out the window in an emergency. Of course, if there were signs up to explain this, people would just to see if they could.
Granted, but there is an inordinate amount of RCI calls at 179 St. and Continental daily calling for cab window glass needing to be reinstalled. I know if I'm operating an R46 (and I see the "plastic" glass buckling all the time with a crowded train due to customers' leaning against it) and all of a sudden the glass comes crashing thru, it would be an unexpected shock which may startle me and cause me to "drop the button". If a student is operating and his instructor is standing, that crashing glass would cause injury to the person standing in the cab.
I have had it happen many times in the rush. When it does I paddle the door open until an RCI can attend to it.
It most often happens because the last man to put it in didn't have enough to lace the rubber all the way around. There isn't always enough avaiable.
So in other words, you'd expect someone panicing to do the obvious, which is to start beating on the windows till they give way.
-Hank
The slashing on a D train crossing the Manhattan Bridge a few months ago comes to mind. If it happened on a Q train with R40 cars then maybe nobody would have gotten hurt, as an escape route is handy.
Rule of thumb: when riding on a train of R44/46/68 cars, always ride in the car with the conductor in it, so you will be seen by him should the need for help arise.
The most dangerous spot in the entire system to be in is in the rear car of a Manhattan bound R44 A train going from Broad Channel to Howard Beach about 15-20 minutes after Beach Channel High School lets out.
"The slashing on a D train crossing the Manhattan Bridge a few months ago comes to mind."
Poor example, Chris. In that case, it was the perp who got the beating when he couldn't get away.
Well, I guess locked cars have both benefits and drawbacks.
[The most dangerous spot in the entire system to be in is in the rear car of a Manhattan bound R44 A train going from Broad Channel to Howard Beach about 15-20 minutes after Beach Channel High School lets out.]
Some of the School Security officers should be assigned to ride subways in known problem situations like this one.
Cops are usually in the stations (like they are on the god-awful B during times that high schools let out), but once the train leaves you're on your own.
It probably is. I was once a student at Beach Channel back in the R-10 days on the CC.
It was quite often my "classmates" would throw out the fiberglass seats onto the roadbed or pull the rear cars' stormdoor open and toss the seats out that way.
After the seats were open they would kick out windows or turn the snap switches and pull the emergency handles to open side doors while the crew would be uaware as the 10's could do that and not loose indication.
Animals they were. I have been out there in recent years with Rock Park A jobs and the kids are worse today.
Heck, you wanna see real animals, put in a pick for the B line coming out of Stillwell Ave from 3-4 PM on schooldays. Bay 50th St. is an absolute zoo and that entire line in Brooklyn is pure hell to ride at these hours.
I have suffered through it. The police forbid the train to make both stops Bay 50th and 25th Avenue. It's one or the oher but not both. Else both crowds of kids will destroy the train. And each other.
Here's some odd items at the TA Musuem:
(1) Subway related skate boards (How many of these do you think get sold?)
(2) Subway Map shower curtain (Okay, not too bad an idea but it is an outdated map)
Anyone else with similar observations?
Doug aka BMTman
The shower curtain is too small at that.
JRC
At least there's no doubt that it's an authentic TA product. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Well, you never know when you might have a desire to plan your next subway trip in the shower.
[Here's some odd items at the TA Musuem:
(1) Subway related skate boards]
A rather odd choice in that skateboard in stations is strictly forbidden. It's sort of like selling beer at a highway rest area.
A rather odd choice in that skateboard in stations is strictly forbidden. It's sort of like selling beer at a highway rest area.
Yeah! Right? Skateboarding in the subway is not only hazardous to your fellow passengers, its also an easy way to wind up on the tracks!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
With the amount of dogs that I have been seeing riding the subways with their owners, maybe an official TA Dog Carrier or Crate would be the next item the transit musuem stores should sell. I get into many arguements trying to keep these dog owners off my train. The clerks at the station booths are susposed to stop them, but they do nothing. It then falls in our lap- the conductors. Many dog owners state that there are no signs banning dogs from riding the subways as long as they are on a leash! Maybe the TA needs to begin installing signs at every station! Otherwise, all of us conductors are in for arguements every day- hopefully one angry dog owner will not let his or her dog go after us. It's happened to many mail carriers already- we're next if the TA doesn't do something
With the amount of dogs that I have been seeing riding the subways with their owners, maybe an official TA Dog Carrier or Crate would be the next item the transit musuem stores should sell. I get into many arguements trying to keep these dog owners off my train. The clerks at the station booths are susposed to stop them, but they do nothing. It then falls in our lap- the conductors. Many dog owners state that there are no signs banning dogs from riding the subways as long as they are on a leash! Maybe the TA needs to begin installing signs at every station! Otherwise, all of us conductors are in for arguements every day- hopefully one angry dog owner will not let his or her dog go after us. It's happened to many mail carriers already- we're next if the TA doesn't do something
If everything else wasn't enough. Now the subway is going to the dogs!
Why not have the Police called? You have a radio, why not call for assistance. Once these individuals get a ticket they won't comment that there are no signs. Ignroance of the law is not a legal excuse.
Tell me - how many "No Smoking" signs are posted in a subway station?
I bet you could count them on one hand. Yet smoking on the system is rare and tickets are issued to violators when caught. What are dog owners going to do when the police come by? Stick the dog under a coat?
Section 1050.9(h)(1) (this may have been updated) of the official Rules of Conduct:
No person shall bring any animal on or into any conveyance or facility
unless enclosed in a container and carried in a manner which would not annoy other passengers.
(h)(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to working dogs for law enforcement agencies, to servoce animals which have been trained or are being trained to aid or guide a person with a disability and are accompanying persons with disabilities, or to service animals which are being trained by a professional trainer.
All service animals must be harnessed or leashed.
_________________________________
I am not going to type the rest but Trainers must have proof that the animal is being trained. A service animal must have a service animal licesnse issued by the Dept of Health or other permit as issued by the MTA.
------------------------ Just letting off some steam
Hmmmm! My wife said she needed a new shower curtain.
I wonder if they do mail order...
Hmmmm! My wife said she needed a new shower curtain.
I wonder if they do mail order...
Even for those who aren't railfans, its quite a conversation piece.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And, just think, you'd have no problem trying to find matching wallpaper with all the colors on the map!
--Mark
And, just think, you'd have no problem trying to find matching wallpaper with all the colors on the map!
--Mark
Use subway maps themselves for the matching wallpaper.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The chocolate bars they have wrapped in a piece of paper that has a badly reproducted Metrocard logo on it are pretty funny. They'll market anything.
The chocolate bars they have wrapped in a piece of paper that has a badly reproducted Metrocard logo on it are pretty funny. They'll market anything.
I think I'll sell computers with the Metrocard logo. How about mouse pads?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The City's store at the Times Square Info Center sells Mouse Pads with a portion of the Map on it. I am suprised the Museum hasn't picked that one up yet.
They've had them there before. I thought about buying one, but I've got more pads than mice as it is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am currently using a nice mouse pad map of WashDC's WMATA system. Comes in handy when discussions come around about specific lines, stations, etc! ;-)
I have never bought a mousepad.
To many freebies!
-Hank
When they start selling cans of spray paint with the MTA logo on them, then you can say they'll market anything.
Or box cutters.......
LOL
or cheap stick pens, and postums notes
Rail-fanned to Long Beach last night and noticed that the switches
into the station at Long Beach appear to have been automated. Used to
be the conductor had to get off the train and throw the switches. Now
there is a series of white, red and amber lights. How do they work?
Wow. That would be huge progress for the Long Beach Branch. Depending on which track you were coming in on, the conductor had to hop out and throw the switch as many as three times.
Plenty of people who live in Long Beach have historically driven to Island Park and taken the train from there to avoid the ridiculous stopping and starting getting into the Long Beach station. You could actually get off in Island Park, get in your car, wait for the train to cross in front of you and then drive to Long Beach and drive right past the station before the train had even made the platform.
When I lived out there, that switch silliness was enough to put me on a bus to Far Rockaway to take the A train. It took less time and cost less too.
Chuck
How about Hempstead? I haven't used that line in ages. I remember the engineer used to get out and throw the switches. Do they do it now?
Now, the conductor gets out and keys the switches instead of hand flipping them. Or at least that's the way the Port Washington line is/was.
I always get a kick out of how the LIRR's so advanced in some respects (dual modes, computerized stuff, electrification), yet retains some pretty acient stuff (towers, wayside signals (position light, no less), hand throwns in yards.)
[I always get a kick out of how the LIRR's so advanced in some respects (dual modes, computerized stuff, electrification), yet
retains some pretty acient stuff (towers, wayside signals (position light, no less), hand throwns in yards.)]
It's amusing to see Speonk- and Montauk-bound trains getting written orders at PD Tower in Patchogue. No doubt this arrangment hasn't changed significantly in 75 years. Oh, and it's also amusing to see the condition of PD Tower - any private structure in similar condition would have been condemned and demolished as an immediate risk to human life.
I saw an old diesel the other day stopping at Roslyn, it's brakes sounded horrible, and the train was rusted and in my opinion in worse condition than the subway cars were even in the graffitti days.
Only can the LIRR get away with keeping such old and unsafe junk trains rolling.
The "Leaning Tower of PD" has been that way for over thirty years.
In their defense there's a good reason why that's done that way. Would any private company, as you so thoughtfully pointed out pay over 1.5 million dollars a mile to signal a line that sees a handful of trains a day?
It's not fiscally responsible to spend limited capitol dollars when the diesel fleet looks the way it did.
Special orders given over the radio are also received by the conductors on the LIRR, written on the appropriate forms, communicated by the conductor to the engineer and become part of the record.
I know this seems fussy and old fashioned, but compare the safety record of the LIRR to the NYCTA in recent years.
Hi Folks, Can anyone tell me what year the Bay Shore station was rebuilt to a high level platform? And why they picked this station? I remember going there in 1986 for a vacation to fire island with my dad. It was already High level back then. I just dont understand why the LIRR never bothered with the rest of the stations until the stupid looking bi level garbage came into town? Anyone know? Thank you. PS What kind of neighborhood is it in?
I don't recall the date, but if you remember it high level in 1986, it couldn't have been very long before that.
It was made high-level because it is the busiest station for Fire Island. Huge numbers of people get on/off during the summer there for taxis to ferries for a half-dozen or more island communities.
The neighborhood isn't great but neither is it actively threatening. A huge number of old homes were just bulldozed for new housing (probably low- moderate- income condo style stuff) and the aquarium they hope to build there.
[It was made high-level because it is the busiest station for Fire Island. Huge numbers of people get on/off during the summer there for taxis to ferries for a half-dozen or more island communities.]
Sayville station also gets a good deal of Fire Island traffic, bound for the communities of Cherry Grove and Fire Island Pines. Until recently, many of these riders would not have been welcome to work at Cracker Barrel restaurants - see the interesting thread at misc.transport.road :-)
Seriously, it looks as if the LIRR had high hopes for increased ridership at Bay Shore, connected no doubt to the start of dual-mode direct service to Penn Station. Parking lots at Bay Shore and also at Islip were repaved in anticipation of more usage. Having ridden on the morning dual-mode from Speonk (it stops at Pachogue, where I board, at about 6:40 and arrive at Penn at around 8:25), I'd have to say that the strategy has been unsuccessful so far. The train doesn't become anything close to crowded until it stops at Babylon, which always has been a busy station. And Ronkonkoma trains remain as hideous as always.
"Seriously, it looks as if the LIRR had high hopes for increased ridership at Bay Shore, connected no doubt to the start of
dual-mode direct service to Penn Station."
That may change once the LIRR does a little bit of work publicizing the availability of one-seat rides. I saw that Bob Anderson noted a "stealth-dual mode" (listed in the schedule as a traditional Jamaica change, but in reality a direct Penn to Port Jeff train) on the Port Jeff line, and I saw some evidence of a potential stealth dual mode on the Oyster Bay line through some information on the LIRR website.
It seems as though they are sneaking these things into service to work out the kinks. Once they're confident, we'll probably see some advertising of direct service.
Chuck
[I saw that Bob Anderson noted a "stealth-dual mode" (listed in the schedule as a traditional Jamaica change, but in reality a direct Penn to Port Jeff train) on the Port Jeff line]
It was a direct train from Penn to PJ again today (same equipment as yesterday)
[re popularity of LIRR dual-mode service to NYP]
[It seems as though they are sneaking these things into service to work out the kinks. Once they're confident, we'll probably see some advertising of direct service.]
What kinks? The dual-mode locomotives were extensively tested before being put in service, presumably the LIRR has decided that they're sufficiently reliable. I see no reason why the LIRR doesn't promote dual-mode service as much as possible. Something's got to be done, and quickly, to take the pressure off Ronkonkoma.
"What kinks?..."
I have no idea. As you mentioned, there should have already been testing done. But they probably also did plenty of "pre-testing" with the original dual modes and look at those results.
My guess is that with the next set of new schedules (February or March?) you'll see considerably more dual mode service as well as some advertising and news articles hyping the service change. Then, finally you may get some relief on the Ronkonkoma line.
Chuck
The LIRR Bay Shore station was high-platformed some time before early 1985, as that was when I last visited Bay Shore. I grew up in that area and rode the LIRR from there to LIC daily.
I don't know about now, but the neighborhood around the station used to be old but decent -- until you went EAST of the station and then it was always a rundown, seedy neighboorhood that I didn't feel safe in, even back in the late 1960's.
I'd rather have a Bi-level than an old diesel train anyday. The old diesels look like "rust trains" that are on their way to the junkyard.
When oh when will the LIRR get rid of all of them?
Actually I like both types. My favorite trip was an old diesel from LIC to Jamaica on the Montauk Branch changing for a bi tri-level at Jamaica to Mineola where I usually get off. The old LIC Branch reminds me of the Hooterville Cannonball from Pettycoat Junction so the old stuff is a natural.
By the way, there is a very exclusive part of Bay Shore called Brightwaters.
By the way, there is a very exclusive part of Bay Shore called Brightwaters
Bay Shore has genuine mansions south of Montauk Highway. However, Brightwaters is adjacent to, but not part of, Bay Shore. It is an incorporated village with its own mayor and municipal government.
Bay shore is a hamlet, that is, an unincorporated part of the Town of Islip, which is part of its problem.
Bay Shore and Brightwaters do share a school district.
I actually lived in Brightwaters (Penataquit Drive east of Pine Drive which was the west side of Brightwaters). It was a separate entity from Bay Shore, though the Bay Shore Public Library was actually in Brightwaters (s.e. corner of Windsor Avenue & Montauk Highway).
Not only do they share school districts, but also the Bay Shore F.D. will do the honors when your house catches fire.
Of course, Brightwaters is policed by Suffolk County P.D.
Ok, I've been wanting to ask this for a while, so here it goes...
Last summer while I was lost ^h^h^h^h riding around in the area slightly north of Boston (salem, lynn, etc), I noticed a new kind of signal I've not seen before...
A flashing green light.
Now, what the HECK does a flashing green mean? Go really fast?
I mean, yeah, I come to an intersection. It's red. Ok, stop. Or it's yellow, ok, get ready to stop (floor it). Or it's green. Go. Flashing red's treated like a stop sign,. and flashing yellow's a caution. But what the heck is a flashing green? I never saw a flashing green before in my life. I don't think that NY state book they give you in driver's ed covers it, and I don't recal any signs explaining.
So, to any Boston area people (Hi Todd!), what's a flashing green mean?
The only place I've seen a flashing green traffic light was in Toronto. There, it signified that opposing traffic faced a red light, so one could make a left turn safely.
The flashing green in Canada means just that (in this country a green arrow gives the same indication).
Perhaps the flashing green in New England is a holdover which means the same thing? I've seen flashing green in Oregon and Washington, which is used when the intersection should be approached cautiously due to grades, a "shelf" condition through the intersection (i.e. you are on a downgrade but the intersection is flat, then the road continues on a downgrade past the intersection, thus it would be best to slow down rather than bottom out).
was it just one bulb?? or a 3-bulb stop light that was broken??? I think in some small towns with a side street coming into a main road...the main road gets the flashing green(proceed at speed but keep your eyes open??) and the side road gets the red(stop and watch for cars flying down the street?) :)
i have run into many situations when the lights at the intersection go down..one side flashes green, and the other side flashes red.
or what time was it?? Commonwealth Ave late at night(around 2am), the signals used to "shut off." I think they would go to flashing yellow...but the same idea....
I think that the flashing greens are unique to Massachusetts -- I've never seen them in any other part of the US.
Of course, given the general lack of notice that most Boston drivers give to traffic signs and signals, I doubt that any of them really has any idea of what a flashing green signifies, or really cares. :-)
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, Ed, parts of Delaware and (I believe) Maryland have flashing green lights.
They're used at intersections where people can make a left turn ONLY off a divided highway. (In other words, a partial intersection.) The red arrow for the left turn flashes, as does the green light for the main branch of traffic. The left turners must stop before proceeding, while those on the main road must be cautious of motorists to their LEFT. (Translation: slow down about 5-10 mph, just in case.)
In heavy traffic, the flashing is turned off.
It's a time-saving device. It prevents one guy from waiting minutes for a green signal. If it's a country highway, and no one's coming, why wait?
It's a pedestrian crossing. It may be actuated by a button. The light goes from flashing to steady green and then turns yellow and then red. The flashing rather than a steady green alerts drivers that it is a crossing rather than an intersection.
I'm surprised that the signal escaped the traffic signal standardization of the mid 1960's. Prior to that there were some quaint New England customs - like the red and yellow light. Probably the classic from that era was: "whenever two vehicles approach an intersection at the same time the vehicle entering the inersection first shall have the right of way."
It is (or at least, was) legit to have a flashing green at an intersection where there was a crosswalk.
A couple of years ago, after reconstruction but before a regular traffic light was installed, the Y-intersection of Garden Street and Concord Ave in Cambridge had a flashing green in two directions and a flashing red (I think) in the third. I took great joy in pushing the crosswalk button when crossing that intersection. Most drivers had no idea what was going on, and once after I pushed the button a driver ran the resulting red light and got a ticket from a police car waiting at the next corner.
Funny you bring this subject up... Earlier today I was pondering the flashing green traffic signals at the intersection of Logan Boulevard and Fullerton Avenue here in Chicago, and trying to remember just what the hell they were supposed to mean.
If I remember correctly, they mean that cars traveling in a certain direction must yield to other traffic, while cars going in all other directions may proceed. There's a sign there saying what the deal is, but it escapes me offhand.
But then, the Logan / Fullerton intersection is rather complicated, so the meaning of the flashing green signals may be specific to just that one location and have no bearing on what happens in Boston. Dunno...
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Remember when NYC had two-light stoplights on each corner? They would flash red and green simultaneously instead of the missing yellow.
There are still a couple of these on Liberty Avenue under the el.
The two colors would *not* be flashing or blinking but rather both would be lit up at the same time. In order the sequence went: Green, Green and Red, Red. The two colors being lit is the equivalent of the Yellow ina 3 color traffic light. I grew up in east Flatbush and my corner had one of these for about 4 years till the city finally put in a 3 color light. There were plenty of others around including all of 5th ave in manhattan. (5th ave's were sort of gold in color rather than the yellow that became common under Traffic Czar Barnes.
I do have a question in this line: Why(and when) did the Walk/Dont Walk signals go from red and green to the present orange and white?
ps: traffic signal trivia- the red and green are not "pure" colors--the red has some orange in it and the green has some blue for the benefit of color blind individuals. Later on the feds mandated that red be on the top if mounted vertically or the left if horizontally mounted.
There may still be some 2-color lights in NYC...I seem to recall
some under the el in Ozone Park.
The current generation of walk/don't walk signs was installed
starting in the late 1970s.
I remember that Jamaica Ave intersections had these red/green only lights at it's intersections until about 1985.
>>>I remember that Jamaica Ave intersections had these red/green only lights at it's intersections until
about 1985. <<<
Were those under the el? Liberty Avenue still has some of those. Check 'em out at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/LAMPS/Stoplights/stoplights.html
I know. I ran a couple of red lights not knowing they were there......
3TM
Are there still 2-color signals along the Park Drives in Central Park? (And I don't remember if they were for the cars on the Drive or the crosswalks...?) That was the first and only place I've ever seen simultaneous red and green as a substitute for yellow.
There are still plenty in the Rockaways, noteably under the elevated there. The interesting thing is, the first time I saw one, I firgured out immediately what the red/green meant - it's actually a fairly intuitive signal.
What I'm waiting for (though I doubt anyone will do it soon), is a single LED based light that puts all 3 colors in one little signal thing.
Speaking of which, I've seen some pretty awful turn signals at intersections (you know, the ones with the really thin arrows that go green, yellow, then off)
Actually, I've seen some pretty awful intersections, period. I'm statring to think more and more that "traffic engineering" is bs...
All the 2 color lights under the el in rockaway have been replaced. There was an improvement project for the roadway. Left turn lanes, new road markings. etc.
There are still some, however, along Shore Front Parkway in the low B100s by the high rises. At least there were in November.
There still might be some on Liberty Avenue in the 120s, Richmond Hill.
The two color signals are still under the el South of 111 Street. I used them as flashcards for my NORAC exam at NJT. Are they still using the neon bulbs in Nassau? I remember the oversized walk/don't walk signs that flickered on cold days and wondered how much those bulbs had costed. Are there any places left in New York where the walk sign illuminates only when the request button is pushed?
Actually, I have never seen a pushbutton on a strret corner that will actually change the stoplight, and I remember when they were first installed back in the mid 60s when Iwas a kid. There seem to be fewer and fewer of them.
Kevin, I read once that the push-buttons at crosswalks in NYC weren't intended to change the light. What it does is gives you more time to cross before it changes from green. On the other hand on Long Island they do change the light. If you want to feel powerful push the button on Hempstead Tnpk at the crosswalk at Eisenhower Park. It changes instantly as soon as you push it. Otherwise the Tnpk traffic has a continuous steady green.
The SARGE-my homepage
my Transit buff page
try my COLOR QUIZ
>>>If you want to feel powerful push the button on Hempstead
Tnpk at the crosswalk at Eisenhower Park. It changes instantly as soon as you push it. Otherwise the
Tnpk traffic has a continuous steady green. <<<
A small taste of power is a dangerous thing. Soon the pedestrians in Long Island will think they're in charge!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, I have never seen a pushbutton on a strret corner that will actually change the stoplight, and I remember when they were first installed back in the mid 60s when Iwas a kid. There seem to be fewer and fewer of them.
The buttons are probably not hooked up to any circuits. They probably have them so that you'll think you can change the light by pushing them. Hey, it works. Push the button long enough and the light will change. Of course, it would change anyway. It just gives people a psychological uplift, making them think that they had something to do with the light changing.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There are fewer and fewer of them. I took a snapshot of one in Flushing this afternoon which may eventually wind up on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[The buttons are probably not hooked up to any circuits. They probably have them so that you'll think you can change the light by pushing them. Hey, it works. Push the button long enough and the light will change. Of course, it would change anyway. It just gives people a psychological uplift, making them think that they had something to do with the light changing.]
From what I have observed, that's not true (at least here in Nassau County). If you don't push the button and if there are no cars stopped at the red light on the cross street, the light will not change. The light will not change immediately, but it will change at the start of the next cycle if you push the button.
Hey Bob, I sometimes ride a motorcycle. I have 2, a Harley and a Yamaha. Although the Harley is heavy enough to change the light when I'm on my Yamaha at some Nassau corners the light will never change until a car comes. Same thing with turning arrows.
In the city the pedestrian buttons do not change the light, it just gives you more time to cross before it changes to yellow.
I've seen the little push-buttons being placed on some recently installed signals here and there. Once in a while there are a few signals that are still activated by push-buttons, but the one's I've seen are for intersections that have crosswalks and no through street.
One somewhere on 7th Avenue near Dyker Beach Golf Course is activated by push-buttons to this day. One prank me and my friends used to do back when I was in High School was whenever we passed by this light was to push the button and just keep walking along the sidewalk w/o crossing the street. We thought it was pretty hilarous to look back and see all the frustrated speed-demons heading for the Belt Parkway being forced to stop at a mysterious red signal with no pedestrians crossing.
Silly stuff I know, but it was good for a laugh or two on a boring evening or afternoon of just wandering around the 'hood :)
So that was you!!!!
A common activity among students at Stetson University in DeLand, Florida is to push the crosswalk button at the intersection on campus, and to count how many cars get backed up at the red light as a result. Last I heard, the school record was something like 40 cars.
I guess it beats cow-tipping. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I've been in towns with painted crosswalks between intersections. If you step into the street, the cars have to stop for you!
Imagine such a situation in NYC and Nassau? The pedestrians in charge?
Rudy never thought of this...instead his first thought was to restrict the pedestrians.
www.forgotten-ny.com
According to my daughter, in Nevada the automobiles have the right-of-way over pedestrians anywhere, anytime that the pedestrian does not have an explicit walk signal. You can't get sued for hitting one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According to my daughter, in Nevada the automobiles have the right-of-way over pedestrians anywhere, anytime that the pedestrian does not have an explicit walk signal. You can't get sued for hitting one.
That is odd. I thought traffic laws regarding pedestrians were pretty much standard across the United States. The pedestrian is supposed to have the right of way over the automobile. Of course, this is hardly ever practiced in New York City. But, what goes around comes around. Those same motorists that terrorize pedestrians, themselves find themselves dodging vehiculsr traffic that won't give them the right of way.
NYC TRANSIT
I found out about it when I started to cross in a marked crosswalk a couple of years ago and she held me back - there was no signal for anyone, therefore the cars had the right of way. Her husband thinks it's great ... I'm not so sure. Beats the heck out of waiting for kids that stand in the middle of the crosswalk just so they can hold up traffic, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The pedestrian is supposed to have the right of way over the automobile.
Not even true in NY State. A pedestrian has the right of way only at a marked or an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection. A pedestrian must obey a walk/dont walk signal. If there is a traffic light at that crosswalk, then the pedestrian has the right of way when the signal is in his favor. A pedestrian may cross against a traffic light (as opposed to a walk/dont walk sign) but must yield the right of way. If a pedestrian must yield, if he crosses outside a crosswalk or an intersection.
I was in LA a few years ago. We were on Hollywood Blvd. The light turned red. The flock of peds stayed put at the red, even though there wasn't a car in sight coming the other way. My companion said they were obeying the light for fear of being ticketed.
It was silly.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was in LA a few years ago. We were on Hollywood Blvd. The light turned red. The flock of peds stayed put at the red, even though there wasn't a car in sight coming the other way. My companion said they were obeying the light for fear of being ticketed.
It was silly.
Like I just responded to Stephen Bauman, my mother got a jaywalking ticket in NYC (Manhattan) back in the 1960's. However, I myself never heeded those laws. they are silly. What are they going to do to you if you don't pay the ticket. My mother never had a drivers license or a car. They couldn't revoke any license. BTW, she paid the stupid ticket. I don't remember whether it was $5 or $10.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Jaywalking tickets were $2 until they were raised to $50 last year.
Jaywalking tickets were $2 until they were raised to $50 last year.
You would think the police have more important "crimes" to worry about. Do they still issue tickets for this nonsense?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Do they still issue tickets for this nonsense?
Of course. His honor has proclaimed it a "Quality of Life" issue.
Of course. His honor has proclaimed it a "Quality of Life" issue.
How much is the fine for not bowing before King Rudolph I? Is it a fine, or are you beheaded for such a display of disrespect for the Monarch?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not even true in NY State. A pedestrian has the right of way only at a marked or an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection. A pedestrian must obey a walk/dont walk signal. If there is a traffic light at that crosswalk, then the pedestrian has the right of way when the signal is in his favor. A pedestrian may cross against a traffic light (as opposed to a walk/dont walk sign) but must yield the right of way. If a pedestrian must yield, if he crosses outside a crosswalk or an intersection.
That's what I meant. I thought it was implied. However, most motorists won't yield the right of way to pedestrians, even when the walk sign is lit. I guess I should have been more specific in my post. BTW, I thought crossing outside the crosswalk was called jaywalking and was a ticketable offense? Back in the 1960's, my mother got a ticket for jaywalking. I remember the public service ads on TV when I was a kid - "Cross at the green, not in between".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I remember the public service ads on TV when I was a kid - "Cross at the green, not in between".
I also received a jaywalking ticket about 20 to 25 years ago. I was walking to the subway for my morning commute into the City and it was drizzling. A cop was directing traffic and slavishly following the Walk/Dont Walk sign - regardless of traffic conditions. I walked up three car lengths from the crosswalk and crossed in the middle of the block. The cop took exception to this challenge to his authority and issued me a summons. I went to court to challenge the summons.
All traffic offenses not involving an automobile were handled by civil court in those days. This meant that a trial took place in an old courthouse on lower Broadway (Manhattan) even though the incident took place in Queens. The City was represented by an assistant Corporation Counsel. The cop told the truth. During my cross examination, I established 4 points: it was raining; I crossed at least 50 feet from the crosswalk, him and the traffic signal; there were no oncoming cars in the street at the time I crossed; and my demeanor was correct and polite at all times. I showed the regulation to the judge and asked that the case be dismissed.
He refused and I took the stand in my own defense. I recounted my version which was roughly equivalent to the cop's statement. I emphasized the rain, the lack of traffic, the fact that the subway station was a short block away and that I went 1/4 block away from the intersection to avoid a confrontation. The Corporation Counsel asked me during the cross examination whether I had heard the expression "Cross at the green not in between." and what it meant. My reply was that I had of course heard it but that it was advertising and that I had learned not to believe everything in advertising copy. I also asked the green what, since "green" was obviously an adjective without any noun to modify. The judge felt that enough of the court's time had been expended by this time. He gave me an admonition about being careful crossing the streets and dismissed the case.
N.B. I was young and naive at that time. Everyone was paid for his time during my trial - judge, corporation counsel and cop. I had to take comp. time for my appearance. Now that I'm old and cynical I'd pay the two bucks and be done with it. One final sad postscript: a few years later the cop was shot and killed in the line of duty.
Kevin, it's the law in New York State that automobiles must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, both marked and unmarked.
Cities may be exempt from this rule, I'm not sure.
Some villages, like Farmingdale and Sayville, post this rule on signs at some crosswalks, and people do, indeed, stop.
In other places, like one of the two main streets in my village, you'll see people stop when someone is waiting to cross, especially if they're elderly or are hauling kids. I suspect most of these people are doing it to be nice and aren't aware it's the law.
What I'm waiting for (though I doubt anyone will do it soon), is a single LED based light that puts all 3 colors in one little signal thing.
I don't think you will ever see that. Colorblind people rely on the position, rather than the color of a traffic light to be able to tell what color it is. They are always red on top, yellow in the middle and green on the bottom.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>>There are still plenty in the Rockaways, noteably under the elevated there. The interesting thing is,
the first time I saw one, I firgured out immediately what the red/green meant - it's actually a fairly
intuitive signal. <<<
All the older stoplights along Rockaway Freeway and Edgemere Avenue have now been replaced by modern ones. This happened just last winter.
>>There were plenty of others around including all of 5th
ave in manhattan. (5th ave's were sort of gold in color rather than the yellow that became common
under Traffic Czar Barnes. <<<
Fifth Avenue had a unique style of stoplight seen nowhere else in NYC, along with a unique variety of twin lampposts. Unfortunately none of those stoplights remains today.
>>>Why(and when) did the Walk/Dont Walk signals go from red and
green to the present orange and white<<
This was done in the 70s. I believe the green was too dark for people who have trouble seeing in the dark, especially at twilight.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Why(and when) did the Walk/Dont Walk signals go from red and
green to the present orange and white<<
This was done in the 70s. I believe the green was too dark for people who have trouble seeing in the dark, especially at twilight.
They were originally the same red and green as the stop and go lights for the motorists. If that green isn't too dark for motorists, why is it too dark for pedestrians? And there's nothing worse than having the sun directly on the horizon in front of you while you're driving. Its bad enough seeing traffic, let alone what color the traffic light is, or even which one is lit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>>They were originally the same red and green as the stop and go lights for the motorists.<<<
Well, if your vision is extremely limited, you won't be driving...I hope.
I think the same rationale explains why stoplights began to be painted yellow in the mid-60s. Just made them that more visible.
Well, if your vision is extremely limited, you won't be driving...I hope.
I think the same rationale explains why stoplights began to be painted yellow in the mid-60s. Just made them that more visible.
Bad vision and colorblindness are 2 vastly different things. People who are colorblind can see clearly, they just can't distinguish color. My brother-in-law is colorblind. He was in the Air Force for 20 years. They would never allow him to fly because of his colorblindness, but he can drive a car as well as anyone else.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well, I hadn't mentioned colorblindness specifically. There are people who do have a condition called night blindness, and they don't see well at dusk or twilight. I'd imagine for them, the dark green 'walk' color wouldn't show up as well as the greenish white they use now.
Well, I hadn't mentioned colorblindness specifically. There are people who do have a condition called night blindness, and they don't see well at dusk or twilight. I'd imagine for them, the dark green 'walk' color wouldn't show up as well as the greenish white they use now.
Here in the Miami area, we don't have walk/don't walk signs. We have pictures. I guess its because of all the immigrants who might not know English. You see a red hand for "don't walk", and a white figure walking for "walk". Does NY have any of those yet?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm told NYC will be installing the pictographic walk/don't walk signs as time goes on. After all, the high schools are graduating youths who cannot read.
I'm told NYC will be installing the pictographic walk/don't walk signs as time goes on. After all, the high schools are graduating youths who cannot read.
South Florida has had the pictographic signs since at least the early 1980's. As for the trend toward illiteracy, it is shocking and depressing. There is alot more illiteracy now than there was when I was in high school. I went between fall 1968 - spring 1972. Back then, you would think illiteracy would be wiped out by now. I'm not even talking about immigrants. I'm talking about American-born people who can't read or write. Some are functionally illiterate, but some are so bad that they sign their name with an "X". I was a welfare and foodstamp caseworker for 12 years (I quit that crap 5 years ago), and I've had American-born people who signed with an X. I had to read everything to them. You couldn't just give them the paperwork and tell them to read it over. They couldn't. Most were late teens or early to mid twenties, not old people who had to quit school during the Great Depression. Florida has one of the worst school systems in the country. Everybody's riding around with bumper stickers that say "my child made the honor roll at such and such elementary school". The kids are not that smart. Its just that the standards are low.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
During one of those cockamamie Daily News articles in which they asked futurists what Century 21 will bring in connection with the millennium overhype, one of them said that reading and writing are becoming outmoded skills and will be abandoned in the upcoming decades. Something about machines you can talk to that will follow your orders, and books and magazines that are imprinted on your brain instead of actually reading and absorbing them.
I'm beginning to think I WAS born at the right time. I just missed Vietnam, and hopefully I'll miss this bull!@#$.
A passive, supine population capable of nothing but what their machines can do for them.
"In the year 2525..."
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the adoption of orange DON'T WALK/white WALK indications back in the '70s was done by the NYCDOT to bring it's system up to federal MUTDC (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices) standards.
IF memory serves me correctly, the DOT only upgraded the round-backed crosswalk DON'T(on top)/WALK(on bottom) lights which came complete with sun visors and had no wire mesh grill on the signal head. There were still a few older and bulky-looking box-shaped models from the early 60s that sported the red and green combo. When the current WALK/DON'T WALK lights with the glare shields
(those funny-looking mesh grills over the signal head) replaced the roundbacks and "boxes" it was white-orange combo all the way.
Of course this is New York and even today you can still see the DOT using red DON'T WALK indications here and there around town. I even saw a Green WALK light being used on 3rd Avenue in Bay Ridge.
Speaking of red/green lights, I recall that up until the mid 1990s, Cross Bay Blvd in Broad Channel had about 10 or so interesctions of these lights. One thing that fascinated me was that all of them had a third indication for a green left-turn arrow. The cycle for the light Facing Cross Bay went like this: green-->green/red-->red w/ green arrow-->red-->green.
Those were replaced about 1994 or 95 with standard signals as part of a DOT project that repaved the road, placed new lane markings and cut the # of travel lanes from 4 to 3 in each dierection.
Too bad they're gone now, it was another one of those scenic highlights along with the rebuild of the North Channel bridge near Howard Beach that made a trip on the Q53 bus interesting in the late 80s/early 90s.
(At least the Triboro Drivers still floor the gas pedal
from Rego Park to Broad Channel though.)
Based on my experience, A flashing green means you have every right to barrel on through as if you were a unit coal train with no brakes on a 2% grade with gale force tail winds. However that pretty much sums up the overall driving philosophy in Boston in general.
Has anyone mentioned the Yellow+Red (together) aspect yet? No one observes it anymore in Boston, they just flatten pedestrians. Thankfully they are being phased out.
db
"Has anyone mentioned the Yellow+Red (together) aspect yet?"
That was the one aspect that totally confused me when I moved to Boston. Do you treat it as a yellow???(and floor through it), or as a red?? :) I think it still exists at Harvard and Brighton Ave...which can be a VERY crazy intersection.
The ones there were removed when they rebuilt the intersection as part of the "Allston Village" aka "Lets rip out the Watertown line tracks" project. They remain in a couple of other intersections on Commonwealth and Western Aves.
The RED _with_ YELLOW aspect means: "Walk" it is used for a pedestrian-only sequence when there are no Walk/Don't Walk signs. The really scary thing is that no one behind the wheel knows this, and they just blaze on through honking at the innocent pedestrians. My dog almost got run over on Western Ave in a situation like this.
I live in NYC now, and although driving here is "intense," people do WAY LESS stupid stuff driving here than "up north"
db
There was a BIG difference between a red and a red + yellow aspect. You could not go past either aspect. However, if you had entered an intersection and the light turned red, then you were expected to continue and leave the intersection clear. However, if the light turned red + yellow, then you had to stop where you were.
The system was really quite economical on resources. The economical yankees probably saved several hundred dollars by not needing special pedestrian signals. However, the standardization was pushed through by the traffic light manufacturers.
In europe, traffic lights turn on the yellow light momentarily at the end of the red light cycle so you know to begin shifting your car into first gear. So, the cycle is green, yellow, red, red+yellow, green...
(Hi Phil.)
After reading all of the follow-ons to your post, I went to the Registry of Motor Vehicles Web site, and looked at the Driver's Manual to see what it said about FLASHING GREEN signals. Guess what? No mention. Nor of the simultaneouls YELLOW/RED. So while I've seen them -- and David Chui and others have described their meanings well, I guess the Commonwealth of Massachusetts doesn't believe they exist any more. Perhaps it's time for a "Forgotton MA," Kevin W.?
It is my understanding that flashing green is used primarily if not exclusively on Metropolitan District Commission (MDC, ie the parks dept) property, eg waterfront drives and parkways. I have understood it to mean a pedestrian actuated signal, ie one that's not on a timer or necessarily at a vehicular intersection. Flashing yellow can mean essentially the same thing - expect the signal to change at any time. There's one at my corner in Quincy, MA.
They started them on some of the major hiways here in Delaware last year. Signs say they indicate "be alert for traffic entering hiway from side street". I think they are the same thing that flashing yellow used to be, i.e., side street has flashing red (stop then go) through street has flashing yellow, now flashing green.
Obviously some DOT administrator doesn't have enough to do. And, yeah, nobody pays any attention to any of this anyway.
To make matters really confusing imagine seeing this.
You're driving along the hiway. The light ahead has just turned from red to green. As you approach the light it starts flashing green!
Don't you love technology? If we can do something new, we've got to do it!
...I feel the need to bring this up.
At Tipperary Hill, the Irish section of town, is the only (supposedly) traffic signal in use with Green on top. The history behind this is simple. Green represents the Irish. Red represents, among others, the Italians. When the traffic signal was put up, the local people would not stand for it, and through stones at the top (red) light. After several months (years?) of this, they just went ahead and put Green over Red.
They couldn't either put the light sideways or just tell the residents to shut up and that their concerns where frivolous and didn't deserve attention even in the court of braindead monkeys. I prefer the latter action.
I remember hearing about this because my mother grew up in syracuse and walked by said light when going to the dentist.
Before they reversed it, kids would smash the red light out with stones on an almost -daily- basis. Of course nooone in the area would have any idea who was responsible if the police came. They got tired of fixing it.
These kids should have been locked up making license plates for the cars that would stop for the light on TOP of the unit they so detested.
Ah, yes the corner of Tompkins St. and Milton Av. in Syracuse,NY holds a special place in the hearts of the local Irish community. As for those "vandals", they were forever more referred to as the Stone Throwers and went on to live sucessful lives in Syracuse including at least one VERY high ranking member of the Syracuse Police Department.
Once someone colorblind unfamiliar with the intersection goes through and causes an accident, EACH AND EVERY ONE of these "Stone Throwers" should be put away for a long time like those people involved in the stop sign heist.
The Stone Throwers are all dead now and the whole thing happened in the 1920's anyway. The light is still green over red though
Well in that case, why has nobody switched it back?
The Irish establishment in Syracuse is very powerful and that signal is a world famous landmark.
And it is still a very Irish neighborhood. A restaurant right by the light conducts a public reading of James Joyce's "Ulysses in Nighttown" every Bloomsday in June.
Then place a sign beside it saying: CAUTION: Green is on Top
I lived in Syracuse for nine years of my life, and dined at Coleman's on Tipperary Hill many a night.
There's a page devoted to the Green over Red Light & Stonethrowers Park (the park and statue dedicated to the group) which includes a couple of pictures.
--Mike
There are a large number of flashing green lights like this in Toronto. I was there this summer and had a similar reaction to them. Eventually though, we realized that the flashig green signified that you had right of way ahead of the other cars in the intersection. This was used instead of a left arrow, or a "lead green", as is more common in the US. So the standard cycle would be like this: flashing green while you are the only one with a green light, standard (not flashing) green when the other side's light turns green, yellow, red.
Today i just added R68 subway page & check out my Subway's page & more subway pictures will add soon.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Today i just added some of subway's pictures & check out my NYCTransiTrans Subway's Page & enjoy it.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: I have change the name from NYCT-MTA to NYCTransiTrans.
Y2K Glitch was a real joke. Yes, companies needed to get ready for the 2000 date but the news media took it to a new dimension. I think the news media was floored when there was no story to report. The joke was on THEM. And guess what, no transit systems were affected.
There was a slight mishap at Philadelphia International Airport.
After midnight on Saturday, all the arrival/departure screens displayed 1/1/1900. Nothing else was affected and the glitch was more humourous than harmful.
I've heard stories on the news of computers that said 1/4/1980, 1/1/100 and 12/34/1980.
Nice to know at least most of our $282 billion was well spent.
1/4/1980 was the date that DOS/win9x came up with when the PC BIOS rolled to 1900. 1/1/100 showed up on a local Baltimore soccer website's BBS on 1/1/2000, but a day later, posts on the same board showed the correct date. The Webmaster has no idea.
The New Year coverage showws lots of Media types who couldn't hide the disapointment that NOTHING MAJOR HAPPENED. On one network telecast they had a guy doing card tricks.
Since nothing major happened on 1/1/2000, the media then quoted "experts" who predicted Y2K chaos on January 3. Nothing major again.
So the "experts" then predicted "in the coming weeks and months"
I wonder if the Media likes their crow well done.
1/4/1980 was the date that DOS/win9x came up with when the PC BIOS rolled to 1900. 1/1/100 showed up on a local Baltimore soccer website's BBS on 1/1/2000, but a day later, posts on the same board showed the correct date. The Webmaster has no idea.
The New Year coverage showws lots of Media types who couldn't hide the disapointment that NOTHING MAJOR HAPPENED. On one network telecast they had a guy doing card tricks.
Since nothing major happened on 1/1/2000, the media then quoted "experts" who predicted Y2K chaos on January 3. Nothing major again.
So the "experts" then predicted "in the coming weeks and months"
I wonder if the Media likes their crow well done.
Now they're saying that the worst is yet to come - on Feb. 29, because 1900 wasn't a leap year, and on Dec. 31, because of the 366-day year. I personally don't think anything more than date confusion will ever result from Y2K. The millennial rollover didn't cause any crashes. Why should any other date-related event? All the hype is, is a way to sell newspapers, magazines and Y2K supplies. I'm sorry that I didn't find a way to make some money off of this bullsh**! I remember what they were saying back in 1996. Cars won't start, no electricity, no water, all computers crashing, nothing functioning. Ah! G'wahn! They compared it to the aftermath of a nuclear holocost without the explosion and destruction.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
My brother gave me a Metrocard that is the same color under the magnetic stripe, a brownish yellow. It was NOT light at one end and dark at the other. Why?
It was a different print run than the one you compared it against.
There are a few variations of the coloring.
There are also a paper/mag "Tryplex" version sold via ATM vs. MVM machines. (there were two test versions, so you'll need 3 for a set)
Have a few 2000 QSC pocket calendars to trade your local or out-of-town dip/swipe cards. If interested contact me off-line.
Mr t__:^)
Hey John, the lawyers will get rick on the Y2K Glitch. What do you think? Was the CTA affected?
Not nearly as rich as they would have if there had been major and/or widespread Y2K problems. Y2K protection laws or not, there would have been lawsuits galore if computer failures started ringing up millions of dollars in losses.
CTA wasn't affected -- they did a pretty good job New Year's Eve, moving the huge crowds at Navy Pier, Grant Park, and elsewhere in the city. The real worry here in Chicago was ComEd (electric power), since they can't be relied upon to keep the electric lights burning even in the heart of the Loop when the temperature gets into the 90s. (^: But the lights stayed on at midnight here, except for a one-minute outage in one of the suburbs due to sabotage (a home-made bomb next to a high-tension tower!) and not the Y2K bug.
Will the test include specific train operations and such or will it be a general civil service type exam?
Im taking a test this saturday at 10am in the morning & i think it will be general civil service or other. So good luck on Train Operator exam.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
So am I. This should be interesting....
-Stef
I took the conductor's test in November of 93. I'm still waiting for them to call....LOL.
That should be a testament enough to all who are taking the exam on Saturday not to type up resignations to their current employer yet!
lol
Well Bill, I guess that while I wait, I'll become versed in operating a retired SMEE Car out of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Long live the Redbirds!!!!!
-Stef
You should call the personnel dept to see where you are on the list, if it still exists.
I recieved my results, and my number was over 14,000. I was just being a tad sarcastic.
A friend of mine that works for the TA said that I should know my points of interest and that there will be paragraphs and the questions are from the paragraph.......
I will be taking mine on Sat at 4:00pm. Anybody taking theirs earlier??????
3TM
I'll be in the Bronx taking the exam bright and early at 10AM.
-Stef
Stef: i will taking the test at 10AM at Walton HS. I did study hard for three months. I might get between 75% to 85% on the test.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I'll be at Walton too!!!!!!
How do you like that?
-Stef
Ill be taking mine at Canarsie HS in Bklyn. There is an article in today's DN about the applicants and how many openings there are for the motorman position. I wish everybody who take the test good luck.
3TM
I have been working on a subway line design for 4 years and I have gotten no where and I wanted to know if anyone is willing to help. I wanted to present my plan to people who can give some great consideration. Well best of luck to all of you and thanks.
Christopher Rivera
Is it possible to get copies of those Neighborhood Maps that are in the subway stations. They give great detail and there's a few of them I'd love to have.
NYCT sells the neighborhood maps. Call 718-243-3322 (Customer Assistance) 9-5 weekdays. They'll tell you who to contact and how much the maps are.
David
I know that there are a number of lines that run under Flatbush Ave from atlantic to GrandArmy Plaza, and I've seen track maps that show them side-by-side, but based on my experience using the Grand Army Plaza, Seventh Ave, and Bergen street station, I know those lines don;t run side by side. Is there anywhere I can see an elevation map of that section of track?
Think of it like this: the IRT local tracks are on the outside. The BMT Brighton tracks run down the center, between the 2 IRT local tracks. The IRT express tracks run underneath both sets of tracks. This is practically the same way the 6th Ave IND and the Path lines are configured from W4th St to 34th St.
Also if you are on the Brooklyn bound 2/3, between Bergen and GAP you should see the 7Av station. You might catch a D/Q entering the station.........
3TM
I have seen the 2/3 trains pass by the D/Q line in an opening in the wall just north of 7th Ave.
One time I was on a Redbird express and I look up at the railfan window I saw a glimpse of the station also.
3TM
Recall that back when the dual contracts were being formulated it was unclear who (IRT or BMT) would operate the 4th Ave subway. Hence some of the close construction.
Ive also been told, in a similar vane, that there is access from Metro-North in or about GCT to the Lex subway, probably the southbound local track, via a doorway. I dont think that you can actually see from one property into the other, though, unless you are quite lucky.
Perhaps someone else has the details......
In actuality, the "4th Av Subway" was built ca. 1910 by the BRT (Brooklyn Rapid Transit) as part of the Tri Borough Plan, as was the Nassau St loop. It had nothing to do with the Dual Contracts, which were awarded several years later.
Finally the R-142 trains have arrived. When will these trains begin "test" runs ? and on what line will they run on, or when they will be visible in the 239th street yard or the East 180th street yard, looking forward to see them in action, I saw them on transit transit they look good, but will they run.I would like to stop by and take some pictures.
What's the rush? The longer it takes to test the R142, the longer we get to see all those redbirds get a stay of execution.
What's the rush? The longer it takes to test the R142, the longer we get to see all those redbirds get a stay of execution.
Yeah. the redbirds won't be around much longer, but those R-142's will be around for 35 years. Once all the redbirds are replaced, you will probably resent the R-142 for replacing them, so don't wish away the redbirds. That's what you're doing by being impatient about the R-142's testing.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
but those R-142's will be around for 35 years.
In the Transit Transit show, one person was interviewed saying they hope the R142s would be around for at least 40 years, but wouldn't be surprised if they lasted much longer....even 60-80 years! Don't feel too bad about the redbird era ending, at least there is a red mark on each car, plus on the bottom half of the front as well. -Nick
In the Transit Transit show, one person was interviewed saying they hope the R142s would be around for at least 40 years, but wouldn't be surprised if they lasted much longer....even 60-80 years! Don't feel too bad about the redbird era ending, at least there is a red mark on each car, plus on the bottom half of the front as well. -Nick
60-80 years? You've got to be kidding. I don't recall any rapid transit car that lasted that long in service. 50 maybe, but 60-80, I sincerely doubt that. 40 seems a bit more realistic; maybe 50.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Some of the cars that ran on the old IRT lines were retired after about 75 to 80 years of continuous service. The day that they were retired, there was a sign on the front of the last train stating how long it was in service, and it was featured in a newspaper article with pictues.
Some of the cars that ran on the old IRT lines were retired after about 75 to 80 years of continuous service. The day that they were retired, there was a sign on the front of the last train stating how long it was in service, and it was featured in a newspaper article with pictues.
How could that be? Hi-V's from 1904 were retired in the 1950's (maybe by the early 1960's, the very latest), and Lo-V's from 1914-1924 were retired in the early 1960's. The only cars that I can think about were the el cars. I don't know when they were built. Some might have been built as early as the 1870's or 1880's, I suppose. I think all composites from 1902 were retired before 1950. I f a Hi-V built in 1904 was retired in 1963, that would make it 59 years old. If any MUDC's date back to 1878 (and I doubt that; they probably date to 1895-1905), and they were retired in 1955, the oldest they could be is 77 years old. but like I said, I don't think any of the MUDC's were that old. A car made in 1890 would have been 65 years old. Seventy-five to 80 years old? Show me documentary evidence and I'll believe it. As for newspapers, they are wrong more often than they're right when it comes to 75-80 year old history.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think he's referring to the Museum Train of Lo-Vs which came out to carry passengers on the 42nd St Shuttle for one day in 1994.
-Stef
I think he's referring to the Museum Train of Lo-Vs which came out to carry passengers on the 42nd St Shuttle for one day in 1994.
-Stef
He was talking about 75-80 years of continuous service. Continuous service does not include a once-in-a-while fan trip or a one-time regular service run on 10/27/1994. He also mentioned "The day that they were retired, there was a sign on the front of the last train stating how long it was in service, and it was featured in a newspaper article with pictues". This sounds like IRT cars being retired from regular service and the newspaper getting the age wrong. Once a train is in museum status, it could be operational practically indefinately. Look at 3662 in Shore Line, not to mention the BU's that are there. Anyway, I refuse to believe that the R-142's could be in service for more than 35-45 years. A better guess would be 35-40 years. The guy whose post I answered stated "In the Transit Transit show, one person was interviewed saying they hope the R142s would be around for at least 40 years, but wouldn't be surprised if they lasted much longer....even 60-80 years! NO WAY!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The newspaper may have been wrong, but the editor did not catch it.
Anyway, the useful life of any electric railroad car or locomotive is about 35 to 40 years, then obsolescence catches up to it and it can no longer be run, mainly due to lack of spare parts.
The more you guys out there write, the more I get to learn.
Thanks.
The newspaper may have been wrong, but the editor did not catch it.
Anyway, the useful life of any electric railroad car or locomotive is about 35 to 40 years, then obsolescence catches up to it and it can no longer be run, mainly due to lack of spare parts.
The more you guys out there write, the more I get to learn.
Thanks.
You're welcome. Hey, we're all learning. that's what SubTalk is here for. If we all pooled together our knowledge, we all together would be a walking transit encyclopedia. Being a nostalgia freak, I only wish that the useful life of a rapid transit car was 75-80 years. The Standards, Triplexes, R-1/9's and Lo-V's would still be in service. It would be great.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
i think the R-142's will last about 30 years or so depending things such as wear and tear people abusing them, availiable spare parts, accidents maybe they will get mini overhauls say every ten years or so, instead of over twenty years like the redbirds.
01/06/2000
That was Joe Hofman on the Transit Transit show who made that declaration that the R-142's might even last about 70 years!
Bill Newkirk
70 years? Not even the R32 could last that long under the stress of daily use on the city's subway system. 40 years is more like it.
Are these cars all stainless steel (like the R32)?
01/06/2000
The R-142's are all stainless steel much like the R-62's. The R-38's unlike the R-32's don't have stainless stel roofs which are showing some leaking problems.
I guess Joe Hofman made that remark judging by the "new technology" this car order will have. I think that may be stretching a bit.
Bill Newkirk
"New technology" usually means that these cars have more things on them to go wrong. Gimme the old tech stuff anyday.
"New technology" usually means that these cars have more things on them to go wrong. Gimme the old tech stuff anyday.
You saved me a post. I was just about to say the same thing. The simple old stuff is much easier to maintain. Even though both my cars have Electronic Fuel Injection, I'll take a good old fashioned carb any day! The damn cars are loaded with computer parts, which can quit at any time. I remember the time my wife's car stalled and wouldn't start. Fortunately, it happened at a toll plaza (right at the gate!) We had to push the thing off to the side to keep it from blocking traffic. It was fortunate because a bank of telephones were right there. Beyond the toll plaza was several miles of wilderness. Anyway, we found out that it was one of the computer boards that blew. Pain in the butt with this high-tech stuff in cars and trains! I remember when the motherboard in my previous computer blew for no good reason. It was down for 30 hours until I could get another MB to put in. That's an inconvenience, but its no fun having your car quit for no good reason in the middle of nowhere while you wait for a towtruck. It would be no different with the trains. If a train quits for no good reason right in the middle of one of the East River tubes, what the hell are they going to do? Call a towtrain?!!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/06/2000
Yeah! Call the "BIG HOOK". An "old fashioned" BMT Steple cab straight from the Museum!!
Also look at the high hopes the TA had for the R-44 or 46's, something called A.T.O. Do these cars have AT today? Nah! As far as the R-62's and 68's, they went back to the old "Two Handle" way of operating cars. I heard the nicknames "suitcase drive" and "idiot stick" to describe the old R-44/46 controller handles !
Bill Newkirk
New technology can be a pain but ... once the bugs get worked out we tend to wonder how we ever survived without it. Take the car analogy: my '60 Fairlane was a great car; with its 223 flathead six and three-on-the-tree, no accessories - and I mean NONE, not even windshield washers - it got me there, dependably, for almost 100,000 miles, before I sold it to a teenager who was willing to give me more than the junkyard would. Several cars later its successor in my fleet was a loaded '85 Country Squire, 302 V-8, computerized to the hilt - that got me there for almost 200,000 miles, and I'm convinced it would have gone considerably farther if my son had changed the oil regularly during the five months he drove it. The '85 weighed about 800 lbs. more than the '60 and had a/c, of course, and still got 22-23 mpg on the highway and 19 in town; the '60 got about 14 around town and 16-17 on the highway. The '85 stopped in 185 feet from 60 mph versus 230 feet for the '60 - and for its day the '60 was one of the best cars out there, while the '85 was decidedly middle-of-the-pack.
Yes, the old ones were fun and we loved them, but for overall reliability and durability the new ones will be far superior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't the Q cars last almost 70 years?
Didn't the Q cars last almost 70 years?
Yes and no. They were originally BU gate cars that were rebuilt in 1938 for the 1939 World's Fair. They were the Osgood Bradley 1200 series BU cars built in 1903. That would mean they were a total of 66 years old when taken out of service in 1969. But like I said, they were extensively rebuilt. If you want to think about it, there is equipment that seems to run forever. Within the past year, I saw a Model A on the street in traffic. I'm sure the owner doesn't use it as his "everyday" car.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They're still running tests on the train at the yard. These trains won't probably be tested in revenue service for at least a month if all testing at the yard goes great. If all does go well, within 3-4 months we could start to see more and more R-142's appear and gradually replace the redbirds. My guess is that when they do test them, they will be tested on the IRT number 2 line. If I recall, this is where the R-110's were also tested. Until
Yes, The R110-A was tested on the #2, but the first revenue test car could go on the #2 or #5. It wou;d be great if one of these cars was actually in passenger testing within a month, but it will probably be longer than that. But I do hope that many R-142s will be in service at the projected time of this summer. When do you think we'll see the R-142 passing through the stations in testing, even without passengers? I'm interested to see if it sounds like Boston's red line 01800 series, with the ac motors. -Nick
If anyone knows about a "Farewell to the R26/28/29/33/36 Fantrip", let me know. I'd love to participate in it.
01/06/2000
Don't hold your breath, a fantrip like that won't happen for a while.
Bill Newkirk
How many tracks are at the Flatbush LIRR Terminal?
Is the building like a sizeable train station in any way or is just a train stop?
By that I mean, its an actual building, sort of like GCT or Penn but certainly not that big, or just some platforms under a roof?
there are 6 tracks. It is just a bunch of platforms and ticket offices at the North end. The above ground terminal is history.
I believe that track #1 merges (or did merge) into the IRT system for the benefit of August Belmont and his car "The Mineola"
[I believe that track #1 merges (or did merge) into the IRT system for the benefit of August Belmont and his car "The Mineola"]
Although provisions were made for the connection - the route's still visible from the north end of the IRT platform - there is some doubt as to whether it ever was put into use.
The Flatbush Ave. station once WAS a Brooklyn version of Penn Station. It was officialy called Atlantic Ave. Terminal (NOT Flatbush Terminal which is the common mistake). Unfortunately, due to lack of ridership on the Flatbush line back in the 50's and 60's, the large terminal above the tracks fell into disarray and by the mid-70's even a small, but well-packed pub on the Flatbush Avenue side, closed up and the terminal building was demolished.
With the building of MetroTech Center and the general economic prosperity in the city -- and Brooklyn in particular -- Forest City Ratner (along with other partners) has proposed a new Atlantic Terminal Center that would include a SEARS store (as the anchor) restaurants, a bar and possibly a nightclub. Of course this is just talk at this point. But Brooklyn has been forging ahead full steam with other projects, so this one becoming a reality would not surprise me.
Doug aka BMTman
[...has proposed a new Atlantic Terminal Center that would include a SEARS store (as the anchor) restaurants, a bar and possibly a nightclub. Of course this is just talk at this point]
I thought it was a done deal and that construction of a new terminal/business center was to begin shortly.
Thanks to politicians dragging these things out for years, and the general NIMBY atttitude (you'd think businesses were on their knees trying to get in here), Brooklyn may be left with a lot of empty holes. The recent interest rate rise may ensure that Brooklyn's "virtual reality" development boom remains just that.
Zoning to allow a wide variety of people to build new stores was voted down by the City Council. If Forest City controls a site, and they no Brooklyn has no alternatives, they are going to hold it back until the city gives them subsidies. And, they have sued to block the Millenium development on the Gowanus from going forward -- construction has stopped. A deal has been announced several times at Spring Creek, but no dirt has flown. The proposed Brooklyn Junction and Fulton Ferry developments have been NIMBYed to nothing. Looks like Brooklyn will be "protected" from a movie studio in the Navy Yard as well. Large national retailers have gotten the hint and stopped calling about possible sites in Brooklyn. Local retailers have no intention of growing -- they'll just cash cow Brooklyn due to the lack of local competition. Brooklyn (pop. 2.3 million plus) has 400,000 private jobs. Nassau (pop. about 1.4 million) has 500,000 private jobs).
"Fortunately" the social services and health care industries continues to grow. And with fewer jobs, Brooklyn politicians have a reason to say more people should be allowed onto welfare and not required to work. Arrrgh.
[Zoning to allow a wide variety of people to build new stores was voted down by the City Council. If Forest City controls a site, and they no Brooklyn has no alternatives, they are going to hold it back
until the city gives them subsidies. And, they have sued to block the Millenium development on the Gowanus from going forward -- construction has stopped. A deal has been announced several times
at Spring Creek, but no dirt has flown. The proposed Brooklyn Junction and Fulton Ferry developments have been NIMBYed to nothing. Looks like Brooklyn will be "protected" from a movie studio in the Navy Yard as well. Large national retailers have gotten the hint and stopped
calling about possible sites in Brooklyn. Local retailers have no intention of growing -- they'll just cash cow Brooklyn due to the lack of local competition. Brooklyn (pop. 2.3 million plus) has 400,000 private jobs. Nassau (pop. about 1.4 million) has 500,000 private jobs).]
It probably was a mistake to have offered subsidies to developers in the first place (yeah, I know, 20-20 hindsight ...) Now Forest City and its ilk know they can keep holding out for more and more $$$. And development in NYC _is_ possible without subsidies. Take the Navy Yard movie studio as an example. Even as it remains mired in childish squabbling, new studio space is being built in Long Island City with solely private financing.
Local residents should be thankful that anyone wants to come near the Atlantic Terminal area. As you state - a few more interest rate jumps and it will become too risky to invest in inner city areas. How do supermarkets fit into our archaic zoning? Can they expand to big-box size as of right in an existing development in a C4-1 zoned area?
[Local residents should be thankful that anyone wants to come near the Atlantic Terminal area. As you state - a few more interest rate jumps and it will become too risky to invest in inner city areas. How do supermarkets fit into our archaic zoning? Can they expand to big-box size as of right in an existing development in a C4-1 zoned area?]
Unfortunately, I don't know the direct answer to your question, but I do know that in many cases large stores have been blocked by the City Council.
[Thanks to politicians dragging these things out for years, and the general NIMBY atttitude (you'd think businesses were on their knees trying to get in here), Brooklyn may be left with a lot of empty holes. The recent interest rate rise may ensure that Brooklyn's "virtual reality" development boom remains just that.
Zoning to allow a wide variety of people to build new stores was voted down by the City Council. If Forest City controls a site, and they no Brooklyn has no alternatives, they are going to hold it back until the city gives them subsidies. And, they have sued to block the Millenium development on the Gowanus from going forward -- construction has stopped. A deal has been announced several times at Spring Creek, but no dirt has flown. The proposed Brooklyn Junction and Fulton Ferry developments have been NIMBYed to nothing. Looks like Brooklyn will be "protected" from a movie studio in the Navy Yard as well. Large national retailers have gotten the hint and stopped calling about possible sites in Brooklyn. Local retailers have no intention of growing -- they'll just cash cow Brooklyn due to the lack of local competition. Brooklyn (pop. 2.3 million plus) has 400,000 private jobs. Nassau (pop. about 1.4 million) has 500,000 private jobs).
"Fortunately" the social services and health care industries continues to grow. And with fewer jobs, Brooklyn politicians have a reason to say more people should be allowed onto welfare and not required to work. Arrrgh.]
Larry, you're depressing me!
I think all the money that will be spent to connect the LIRR to Grand Central should be used to extend this line past the Flatbush terminal into lower Manhattan, thus giving LIRR riders a direct link to the financial district, a la the PATH line to the WTC. Unfortunatly, the cost might make this impossible. However, given the MTA's bias towards suburban transit ...
[I think all the money that will be spent to connect the LIRR to Grand Central should be used to extend this line past the Flatbush terminal into lower Manhattan, thus giving LIRR riders a direct link to the financial district, a la the PATH line to the WTC. Unfortunatly, the cost might make this impossible. However, given the MTA's bias towards suburban transit ...]
I've wondered much the same thing. Why have two terminals in Midtown, rather than one in Midtown and one in lower Manhattan? The same goes for proposals to extend New Jersey Transit.
[With the building of MetroTech Center and the general economic prosperity in the city -- and Brooklyn in particular -- Forest City Ratner (along with other partners) has proposed a new Atlantic
Terminal Center that would include a SEARS store (as the anchor) restaurants, a bar and possibly a nightclub. Of course this is just talk at this point. But Brooklyn has been forging ahead full steam with other projects, so this one becoming a reality would not surprise me.]
As I've noted elsewhere, I'll believe it when the construction workers are on site. Until then, don't believe a thing.
It was once thought to build a new Baseball stadium there for the Dodgers back in the 50s
The shop is now open, but R142s aren't housed here yet. Actually the old timers are being serviced here (you know, the cars in red?). Two sets of R26/28/29s were in the shop this evening. 7958 and 59 came out of the shop onto Track A Yard Lead.
I thought TA personnel were going to wait until the new cars showed up before putting anything in that barn? I wonder if there are any surprises in the barn at 239th St?
-Stef
I was up at 239st shop on Tuesday and there are about 15 new cars in the Barn. I took some pictures yesterday and I will be picking them up this evening. I took advantage of AOL's new feature "You've Got Pictures" so I should have them in a computer format. I will need to comunicate with David(our Web Site Host) to find out how to get the files to him for posting. I was unable to get into the trains this time, but will be there again Friday, well see what happens. Friday I take the Mid-Course exam for Train Operator School Car. Wish me LUCK!!!
It looks like you and I both will need the luck. While you'll be taking your exam for train operator school car, I'll be taking the actual Train Operator Civil Service Exam on Saturday. With any luck, I'll get into Transit after years and years of waiting. While I wait(and I told this to Bill from Maspeth in another post), I'll become well versed in a retired SMEE Car at the Trolley Museum in CT.
Best wishes for sucess, because all things are possible when you put your head to it.
-Stef
P.S. Any idea when the first R142 will come out of the barn and hit the road for track testing?
I have been asking about testing, but no one seem to know. I will keep asking though.
Nobody will know what is on the open competetive exam. A bulletin came out in the last couple of days in RTO directed at employees taking the exam. Why would an employee in RTO want to take the open competetive exam? Because to accept the position, you would have to resign from the conductor's title, then hire on as a train operator. You would not have a former title to go back to. The TA knows this and that is one reason they rigged one of the last few promotionals so only 33 passed. Now the ones who failed a promotional exam to train operator which was quoted as so tough, most supervisors could not pass it, will easily pass the exam to the same title they desired in the first place. I'd offer an extra brake handle to anyone who proves me wrong. THE TA is busting Civil Service with this exam and it is their retaliation for the Union's defiance of the Train Worker titles. Good luck to those taking the exam but Satan is still at the helm of the New York City Transit Authority.
He was taking about the new cars on the road, not the open competitive exam....
-Stef
I was at 180st shop today and there are now 15 new cars there. Someone said they are the same 15 that were previosly at 239st shop.
Unfortunatly I did not have a camera with me, I never thought there would be any new cars at 180st this soon. My trainer and I were able to get into the cars. The Operating position is very nice. There is a one piece controler that is more like a joy stick, rather then the slide controler on the 110A. I am still waiting for my pictures from Tuesday, I hope I get them tonight.
Still no info on when road testing will begin.
Thank You very much for sharing that info with me. I got a tip from another poster that he had seen the cars first hand on Wednsday. I had seen the shop the day before on Tuesday when they hadn't arrived, so they must have come down from 239th St over night. I decided today to hop on a Thru Exp which was going all the way to 241 St instead of 238th St to make up for a gap in 2 service. Yeah, they were there! Incredible! Their front ends look strange..... I wonder if they came down to E180th St on their own power? For those who want to know, the R142s are located on Track 11 in the barn at the East (the track on the inside of the barn against the wall nearest to station). You're best bet might be an evening view of the cars through the glass of the barn. Redbirds and New Cars side by side with each other? Bizarre!!!
Well posters, you heard it here. The R142s are now here, so get your cameras out as the end will be coming for our beloved species now on the endangered list, "The Redbirds".
-Stef
The best of luck to you, fellow sub-talker!
Chuck Greene
Not true, I seen a set of R-142's in the East 180th Street barn this evening.
You have? I'll check it out. I did see the older cars in the barn. Any newer cars are supposed to be up north at 239th St.
-Stef
I noticed it yesterday and tried to get a better look at it today. Behind the CI carwash lies a string of what seem to be old subway cars not in their usual "resting area" at the Ave X entrance of the CI yard. It's not just one car, but a group of 4-5 cars, which leads me to believe it's either the Transit museum's Triplex or BMT Standard fantrip train. Anyone know why it's there, and what exactly it is? As soon as I get close enough to get a good look at it from a passing N train, that !@#$%& carwash building blocks my view!
It's the Triplex's all right.
Alot of the older stuff is outside because the CI Yards needs every inch of floor space these days.
(Not to mention new management at CI might have meant that the museum equipment got 'kicked to the curb' so to speak).
Doug aka BMTman
It's the Triplex's all right.
Alot of the older stuff is outside because the CI Yards needs every inch of floor space these days.
(Not to mention new management at CI might have meant that the museum equipment got 'kicked to the curb' so to speak).
Doug aka BMTman
I hope the museum equipment will be safe there, outside. We don't need any graffiti or scratchiti on any of those cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The D-Types need shelter. They aren't doing too well out there with the elements.
-Stef
The D-Types need shelter. They aren't doing too well out there with the elements.
-Stef
Isn't there anything that can be done to get the TA to put them inside?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not unless you can find someway to squeeze them into the Transit Museum. I think that one of the two Fulton St Local Tracks between each set of switches (the pair at Hoyt and the other at Court), namely what would have been the Manhattan Bound Track should be turned into a storage track so those cars can come out of the elements and into some place that has protection. The Queens Bound local track would remain open for continuous movement of cars. At Hoyt St, a wall could be erected with a gate to keep the vandals out. At Court St, another gate could be erected at the crossover to keep those wandering in the tunnel on the track still open out. There are gates in the Transit Museum, but that's enough to protect the equipment in the station. But if both tracks at Hoyt St could be walled up, then the gates could be pushed back from a point at the Museum to the edge of the station at Hoyt St. It would be really nice to take the cars out of Coney Island and put them under some shelter.
-Stef
Not unless you can find someway to squeeze them into the Transit Museum. I think that one of the two Fulton St Local Tracks between each set of switches (the pair at Hoyt and the other at Court), namely what would have been the Manhattan Bound Track should be turned into a storage track so those cars can come out of the elements and into some place that has protection. The Queens Bound local track would remain open for continuous movement of cars. At Hoyt St, a wall could be erected with a gate to keep the vandals out. At Court St, another gate could be erected at the crossover to keep those wandering in the tunnel on the track still open out. There are gates in the Transit Museum, but that's enough to protect the equipment in the station. But if both tracks at Hoyt St could be walled up, then the gates could be pushed back from a point at the Museum to the edge of the station at Hoyt St. It would be really nice to take the cars out of Coney Island and put them under some shelter.
-Stef
Sounds like a good idea. Now the trick is to get the TA to do it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Problem is it would be trading one set of bad elements: rain, wind and sun, for an equaly poor one. Steel dust.
When Mike had them down there for stoarge in the 1980's they collected a tremendous layer of dirt on them and in their control apparatus.
What makes things worse is that then they were no longer easily accesible for cleaning repair and inspection. A lengthy and costly(in clout not cash) trip down the Culver line would be neccesary to do that.
So out doors or no they are in the best place available short of storing them all in the overhaul shop.
The TA is generous to Mike and Co. but not THAT generous!
Problem is it would be trading one set of bad elements: rain, wind and sun, for an equaly poor one. Steel dust.
When Mike had them down there for stoarge in the 1980's they collected a tremendous layer of dirt on them and in their control apparatus.
What makes things worse is that then they were no longer easily accesible for cleaning repair and inspection. A lengthy and costly(in clout not cash) trip down the Culver line would be neccesary to do that.
So out doors or no they are in the best place available short of storing them all in the overhaul shop.
The TA is generous to Mike and Co. but not THAT generous!
Its a shame. Maybe it would be better to store them in a secure yard which is not near the ocean, so at least the cars won't be exposed to constant salt air.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Maybe it would be better to store them in a secure yard which is not near the ocean ..
... like 36th St MoW Yard. The trains can be stored indoors at the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St .....
--Mark
The last time Mike stored cars there, they were heavily vandalized. If they were properly maintained, CI would be fine.
We are having a lot of rain today. Are the triplexes OK with all this water, as well as the hordes of spirited youth desperate to tag them with graf-/scratchiti?
I would find it hard to believe that grafitti artists would get to his train, as it's somewhat hidden, in the middle of the yard and surrounded by trains that are used in revenue service, which is the whole point of tagging trains to begin with (to have your "art" shown all over the city).
I would find it hard to believe that grafitti artists would get to his train, as it's somewhat hidden, in the middle of the yard and surrounded by trains that are used in revenue service, which is the whole point of tagging trains to begin with (to have your "art" shown all over the city).
You never know. Besides, being out in the elements, especially with all that salt air is not doing those cars any good. I think they should get them inside where they can be protected from the elements and the vandals.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If my garage was big enough, I'd offer them a home with me....but my wife might get annoyed with no place to park her car....lol
If my garage was big enough, I'd offer them a home with me....but my wife might get annoyed with no place to park her car....lol
If she has a sub-compact, just put it on the train, or under the train. It would be like a Chiwawa under a Great Dane.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Sicko! :)
-Hank
Not the Taco Bell Chihuahua!!
I wonder if anyone has a 137-foot-long garage...
How difficult would it be to just build a roof over the tracks? Something like those big, open-sided tents we had in the scouts, only with a real roof that doesn't leak. Hell, why not recycle the redbirds in this manner? Stack 'em and rack 'em!
-Hank
The D-types are NOT in good shape. #6112 has more rust than steel. Rumor has it that the TA would like the one in the museum (6095) saved and the two in Coney Island (6019, 6112) sold/scrapped (Unlike the LO-V's, R1-9's & AB's, The D's ARE owned by the TA and the TA wants nothing to do with them. They have the flaky white stuff and the shop personel won't touch them) Mike wants to work on them but the TA keeps saying no. I forgot to mention that they don't run anymore (Dead/blown motors), Only 2 of the 6 sections have lights and one of the two compressors are dead. Overall the cars are not doing good. At this point I'd rather see them scrapped. Much longer the way they currently are and I wouldn't be suprised if they start to break apart. (Especially 6112)
I never thought I would say this but, I agree with you. In their current condition, They are better off scrapped.........
I never thought I would say this but, I agree with you. In their current condition, They are better off scrapped.........
Would it be possible to cannibalize 6019 and 6112? That way, 2 units can be saved instead of just 1. Two out of three ain't bad! If they did that, they could still use the 2 units on fan trips, and just put 6095 back in the museum when the trip is over. I can't see scrapping 2 of the 3 units they have. I can't see never running the D-Type again. There's got to be a way. If the TA doesn't want it, let them give it to Branford.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The sad thing is the TA won't even bring them in the shop for their annual inspection. To add insult to injury, The last time I was in them (Tuesday) I found 73 cigarette butts. (That's right, 73!!!), Seveal seat bottoms were on the floor in clusters. (The employees need a place to sleep. LOL) Real vandals can't get in, but some are from within.
Likw I said, The TA want's nothing to do with them.
BTW
We generally don't go to them unless we have to (Too many tracks to cross at night) But the Guests (?) who were in them left many windows open. Let them rust with no addad help.
I had a bad feeling about this. The Transit Authority is not in the Railfan Business, so they feel it's time to get rid of some old stuff which will not serve them any purpose. They have one unit which is safe and sound at the Transit Museum, and duplicates aren't necessary. As was the case of the Q Car (the only car of its type left on the TA property), it looks like 6095ABC will be a sole survivor. You can run it on excursions by itself, but there won't be enough seats to accomodate everyone.
Sell it to the Railway Preservation Corporation? They have enough cars to worry about. Those folks probably don't need anymore headaches. The D-Types will take up even more space in the yard if they were to be acquired. Try telling that to the people in charge of the yard.
It is my sincerest hope that they don't go off to the scrap line. Perhaps one of the Museums can take them in. As a representative of Branford, all I can say to acquisition of a D Type is questionable. Money and stoarage space are two BIG questions that need to be answered. One member had a fantasy about bringing one up, but that's all it is, a fantasy. I don't know how many members would actually favor such an acqusisition. The ultimate decision lies with Trustees. If one were to be acquired, where would we put it? There's no storage space to put it under a barn roof. It would wind up sitting outside and the same process of degradation would happen all over again. I have no easy solutions to offer, but I can only hope for the best....
-Stef
I had a bad feeling about this. The Transit Authority is not in the Railfan Business, so they feel it's time to get rid of some old stuff which will not serve them any purpose. They have one unit which is safe and sound at the Transit Museum, and duplicates aren't necessary. As was the case of the Q Car (the only car of its type left on the TA property), it looks like 6095ABC will be a sole survivor. You can run it on excursions by itself, but there won't be enough seats to accomodate everyone.
The Railway Preservation Corp. buying the cars seems to be the only hope for them. So, if it takes 10-15 years to restore them, at least they could be saved. Like I said in a previous post, if it means cannibalizing 6019 and 6112 to make 1 good running untit, they should do it. Then, at least 6095 could run along with the other remaining D unit on fan trips. In the 1970's, all three never ran. The museum D was 6019 and 6095, with 6112 in the museum. Since, 6095 took the place of 6112 in the museum and 6112 has been running with 6019 on trips. When was the last time the D-Type was used on a trip? Was it the 12/1995 Nostalgia Special? Geez! I remember when Nostalgia Specials ran every Saturday and Sunday. It was either the D-Type, R-1/9 or A/B. Man, those were the days! The TA ran the Nostalgia Special as a promotional for the Transit Museum. I still have a car ad for the Nostalgia Special in my house showing the A/B crossing Jamaica Bay going out to the Rockaways.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When was the last time the D-Type was used on a trip? Was it the 12/1995 Nostalgia Special?
The last D-Type trip was October 18th, 1998, where we traced the old BMT QT route from 57th St/7th Ave in Manhattan to Stillwell Ave / Coney Island in Brooklyn, and then went back via the Sea Beach line to 57th St/ 7th Ave. Express between 59th St and DeKalb Ave.
Geez! I remember when Nostalgia Specials ran every Saturday and Sunday.
Me, too. You had your choice of Coney Island, the Rockaways or the Cloisters. I still have a few of the tickets they used to give out.
--Mark
Mark: It was reading about those fan trips that got my interested in getting on line on this website. Boy, what I'd do to be able to ride a D-type Triplex Sea Beach to Coney Island once again. I would be a 12 year old kid once again. Is there any such trip planned in the forseeable future? Boy, would that be a kick in the head.
At least you had a chance to ride the Triplexes in their heyday. I was never so lucky. Had fate been kinder in July of 1965, I would have at least seen them on the West End Express. Their last day of service was on the very same day we left for home.
6095 appears to be in decent shape, at least cosmetically. It would be a shame to see the other two units scrapped, but if they're beyond salvaging, there may be no other choice.
Even if Branford were to acquire one of them, I have my doubts if they would ever run it. It would probably consume more power than all of the streetcars that are there combined. Another question is: would the track stand up to it? Those suckers are HEAVY; we're talking over 100 tons.
Is there any such trip planned in the forseeable future?
Not in their present condition, I'm afraid.
--Mark
Does anyone know why they stopped running regular Nostalgia Specials--why they stopped doing them every weekend?
Speaking of fantrips... Does anyone know if Railway Preservation Corp intends to run another trip on the Lo- V's?
Not until we get them re-wired. They are in good cosmetic shape, but have bad wiring which dates from the 50's and must be replaced before we run them again. Last trip was almost substituted by redbirds or called off because of problems with the wiring.
I somewhat agree with you, that half a loaf is better than none, but it seems a shame to just give up on any still-existing historical subway cars such as these.
Dumb question!!! When you give a car number for a triplex is that number for all 3 articulated sections or just one. In other words are the 2 in Coney Is 6 sections or 2? I know its a dumb question but I really don't know!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
My Transit Buff Page
my OUTRAGEOUS COLOR QUIZ
It is 6019A, 6019B, 6019C, 6112A, 6112B, 6112C to be correct. Three sections to a unit.
Couldn't they save at least 1 unit? That's better than nothing.
Couldn't they save at least 1 unit? That's better than nothing.
Yes, they could run one unit, but conditions would be like crush hour. Fan trips are an all-day thing. You're basically on the train from 10 AM to 5 PM. There needs to be seats for everybody, and freedom of movement is important for photo stops. The only way to run one unit is to limit the amount of tickets sold, and that would mean that many people would be left out - many unhappy people. The shortest fan trip train was the 3-car A/B - 2390, 2391 and 2392, making up a 201' train. One D-Type unit is the equivelant of 2 A/B's. That would be a 134' train. The 2-unit D-Type is 268' long.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/06/2000
And now the million dollar question. Will Railway Preservation buy the "D"'s to save two of the three units from being scrapped?
I also doubt seriously that Branford would acquire one unit. So far they're up to their eyebrows in subway equipment, maintaining them in their shop would be a nightmare and the sheer weight of these bad boys would give the roadbed and trestles problems. Maybe the Illinois Railroad Museum? I know it's a far from Brooklyn, but it beats the scrappers torch.
Bill Newkirk
And now the million dollar question. Will Railway Preservation buy the "D"'s to save two of the three units from being scrapped?
I also doubt seriously that Branford would acquire one unit. So far they're up to their eyebrows in subway equipment, maintaining them in their shop would be a nightmare and the sheer weight of these bad boys would give the roadbed and trestles problems. Maybe the Illinois Railroad Museum? I know it's a far from Brooklyn, but it beats the scrappers torch.
Bill Newkirk
If they acquire more subway equipment, they would have to change their name to Branford Subway Yard, or Coney Island Yard, North Annex. Hey, that wouldn't be a bad idea! Expand Branford and make a trolley museum on one side and a subway museum on the other side. All they need is money! Hey, don't we all! We can dream, can't we? If Bill Gates is really a railfan, maybe he can help.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Actually, the Illinois Railway Museum isn't such a bad idea. Their mainline is certainly up to the task of handling the weight of one of those behemoths, as they run North Shore equipment on it, even a diesel loco, IIRC. They did a super job restoring the Elctroliner they have to its former North Shore glory.
Cut the bad steel out and replace it new corrosion proof steel. Meg welders do an excellent job today.
If the cars are not repaired then the D types will be referred to as a Destroyer Car. The D types are great triplexes and I drove them in 1972 on the Sea Beach line. What power and slow acceleration but they drive like a tank.
Why did the BMT reverse the controller and brake valve. Seems scrwy to me.
Maybe the R143 should be replacement for the D types.
01/06/2000
Mr.Train Control,
Perhaps you may not have seen an earlier post but, it sounds like the TA is not interested in repairing the "D"'s. It looks like they want to save the best of the 3 units to become a "static display" in the museum.
Even Bill gates money won't save the "D"'s if the TA is hell bent on scrapping them. Remember what happened to Museum R-6-2 #1208 ? It was scrapped so fast we didn't know what hit us.
Bill Newkirk
Remember what happened to Museum R-6-2 #1208 ? It was scrapped so fast we didn't know what hit us.
No, what happened to it (I know it's scrapped but what led up to its scrapping so "quickly"?
--Mark
1208 was an unfortunate victim of feuding parties. I won't say who, but the car unecessarily went to scrap. If someone else who knows what I'm talking about wants to go into detail, go ahead.
-Stef
That car was a G.E. The other cars in the R1/9 fleet are Westinghouse. I heard there would be a maintance problem with it was kept. That car was abused since, if I recall, it was a horse on the garbage train while it was part of the museum fleet. I may be wrong...
Stef said it. It was in house political fighting. I won't say any more to preserve the peace. Some nerves are still sore on this one. Suffice it to say the car was scrapped for nothing more than spite.
For what reason was 2958 scrapped in 1990? That was supposed to go to the museum as well.
To stop others from getting scrapped, Railway Preservation Corp. purchased the remaining R1-9's, AB's and LO-v's along with various work equiptment. Let's hope the TA owned D type will not go the way of 1208
Wow ... then maybe 1208 didn't "die" in vain ... it appears it led to the creation of RPC, to preserve the remaining cars, which to me is a GOOD thing.
--Mark
The shame is that 1208 was the only GE R1-9 in the museum fleet (Sigh).
01/10/2000
Yeah, something that happened when the original Pennnsylvania Station was demolished and the Landmarks Commission was established. If Penn didn't die, Grand Central would have years later and not restored.
Bill Newkirk
It makes you wonder how Southern Division motormen felt when the R-27s began arriving. Now they had to contend with reversed controls (to them, anyway) and SMEE braking to boot.
I heard about that trait of the Triplexes. They didn't accelerate all that fast, but once they got going, watch out!
And now the million dollar question. Will Railway Preservation buy the "D"'s to save two of the three units from being scrapped?
I also doubt seriously that Branford would acquire one unit. So far they're up to their eyebrows in subway equipment, maintaining them in their shop would be a nightmare and the sheer weight of these bad boys would give the roadbed and trestles problems. Maybe the Illinois Railroad Museum? I know it's a far from Brooklyn, but it beats the scrappers torch.
Bill Newkirk
If they acquire more subway equipment, they would have to change their name to Branford Subway Yard, or Coney Island Yard, North Annex. Hey, that wouldn't be a bad idea! Expand Branford and make a trolley museum on one side and a subway museum on the other side. All they need is money! Hey, don't we all! We can dream, can't we? If Bill Gates is really a railfan, maybe he can help.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Branford would have real serious problems handling a D-type
in our current track layout. It's 137 feet long and it can't
be split too easily. There aren't too many places that could fit.
When I was on that R32 N train going southbound after Dekalb I noticed wheel detectors, but unlike the ones I've seen on the Lexington avenue these lit up, some of them flashing. Was my train speeding or something, or are they supposed to do that?
There was a ton of wheel detectors around there. Maybe it was a special signal about the train running express on Sea Beach?
This also happens on the six as it approaches the City Hall Loop. I'm not quite sute what it means but I think it is just alerting The T/O because the trains at the City Hall Loop are definetly going at the right speed for the WD's and it still flashes.
The wheel detector system is in effect when either a diverging route is set and it's signals are cleared for movement or when a speed restriction in an area governed by wheel detector indication signals is enforced. Take for instance a train approaching the WD fixed signal displaying WD30, north of W.4th Street on the IND 6th Av track B3. If it is supposed to cross to the local track B1 and the signals and route are cleared, the operator should have the train at no more than 30 MPH. The WD signal should display a solid lunar white. If the operator increases speed within the restricted area, the signal or following signals will flash until the train slows down to the speed limit posted by the WD fixed signal. One major advantage is that unlike a river tube where some operators can attain speeds of almost 55 MPH by cheating grade timers or resuming speed too early after the crossover, the wheel detectors ENSURE that the rear end of the train will proceed through the restricted area at the posted speed. Of course with modern technology, the TA put axle speed and time/date recorders into the system to catch violators. When an overspeed condition occurs, an alarm goes off inside the signal tower governing the interlocking or restricted speed area so it is harder to cover up unlike the grade timer. In the case of Brooklyn Bridge, the signal system should be banged out to control center if the light does not stop flashing as it does not conform to the bulletin. I once called in the WD setup at Bergen Street reporting the same condition. I later learned that an operator was taken out of service for an overspeed condition at the same location. The report of the failure and subsequent G2 helped the train operator at arbitration.
Is it the same idea for the Wheel Detector on the #7 Line? The Manhattan-Bound track has a "WD10" at the 1st Avenue Interlocking, with a "WDEND" sign as well.
We were by the interlocking after Dekalb where the N switches to the 4th avenue track (F1)and then later to the 4th avenue express track (F3). As you said, the WD's flashed, the train applied brakes, and the WD's then had a solid lunar white.
They probably put WD's in since this is an important interlocking where speeding wouldn't be tolorated.
I don't remember seeing them a few months ago though.
BTW I like those river tubes. Lately I've had a few operators really gunning in after the GT's in the 53rd street tube while riding the F.
The train applies and releases brakes upon entering the tube with the yellow GT's, but after the last one clears they race it on through.
It's especially fast on the R44's and R46's used on the F.
Monday the trains were running pretty fast on most lines, even the 7 trains seemed to go pretty fast after the GT's in the Steinway tubes.
I wish more T/O's would do this, since I can't understand the train crawling after we passed the GT's.
The D derailed leaving DeKalb southbound a few years ago. Now the D has GT/ST's into Dekalb and I guess they threw in WD for the N. I also think they got rid of the signal fleeting, does the signal stay red at Dekalb until a punch or is the computer still controling the interlock from the pervious punches?
The risk is high when an operator passes the yellow/S before it clears to green. If the Yellow/S hangs up, you know the next red will not be clear and if the speed is too great, I'm representing an operator at a hearing. To get an extra MPH or two isn't worth it. I encourage operators to follow speed limits for the passengers safety and the operator's job security. If the TA wants trains to go 60 MPH, they would go to a cab signal type setup and maybe a floating block system and fix the trains and rails to accomodate high speed operation. But the TA insists on spending money to eliminate union personel and slowing trains to save on power consumption. Eric came up with an excellent design months back for the suggestion box involving the relay in the master controller and a sensor built into the speedometer so trains can run at full field strength on downgrades and at full power on upgrades. The only reason the TA is going high tech is so they can eliminate more personel. I'd bet good money that while Amtrak is tinkering with their 150 MPH Acela sets, the arriving R143s will be no better than an R68 with P-Wire.
I'm impressed with your knowledge of two block grade time signaling. Your comments are correct.
NICE JOB!!!
And I'm one of those train operators the daily news refered to as illiterate and couldn't pass a test. Thank you.
I noticed today on a southbound #1...front signage reading "11" with
a Purple backround, car was mid-train....wonder where it could be used??? any thoughts??
The 11 was going to be the Flushing Express but that has not yet to happen
The 11 was going to be the Flushing Express but that has not yet to happen
7-11! I like it!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not yet to happen? Will it ever happen?
Probably, if the R62a make their way to the Flushing line....
3TM
This is the 4th trains I've seen or heard about not displaying the right sign. When I was in NYC, I saw 2 trains on the 1 at about 1:15 PM saying 9. We've also been posting about a R train with the brown diamond (not yellow circle). WHY DON'T THE OPERATORS BOTHER TO DISPLAY THE CORRECT SIGN???
To them the R is a R is a R. so any R will due. Most people will not notice the difference, as long as the see the Marker Line
I still laugh when I recall the (R32) "Q" train (before it became 100% R40) signed up as "O". And now and agin I see "W"s mixed in the side signs of "N" trains (R40 cars).
Wayne
Where are the yard leads from the Queens IND to the Jamaica Yard? I remember when I was on the Grand Central Parkway a long time ago I saw a rail bridge with subway cars crossing it. Could that be the yard leads? If that is it must be a pretty steep grade down to the Queens IND.
That sounds like it.
-Stef
Indeed, the Jamaica Yard leads cross over the GCP near the Kew Gardens interchange. However, when the tracks leave the yard, they actually travel upgrade to the Queens Blvd line.
That is the 4 track lead into Jamaica Yard. The 4 tracks are actually level at that point. From North to south, the tracks are numbered D5, D6, D9 and D10. D5 and D6 turn right and actually climb about 30 feet from under the 75th Ave. station to the North end of the Continental Avenue Station where they join the main line. D9 and D10 turn to the left and climb about the same 30 feet (a bit steeper grade) and join the main line between Union Tpke. and VanWyck Blvd.
The following New York City metropolitan area related items are currently being offered on eBay:
227208605 (Subway Brooklyn Rockaway Canarsie), 227675456 (Articulated Subway Cars), 227692688 (Third Avenue Railway System), 228466741 (Brooklyn PCC Cars), 228475918 (Pennsylvania Railroad Hudson and East River Tunnels - an extremely rare book), 230248814 (original IRT 1913 Employee Magazine), 230999720 (Long Island Railroad Employee Magazine), 229915263 (IRT 70th Anniversary) and 229915676 (IRT 1939 World’s Fair Cars).
Stop Lurking here for 2 weeks and everything goes to pot...if I catch him...
During tonight's rush hour I was on an uptown 6. The interesting thing was that the C/R - T/O intercom was being broadcast over the PA. Just some chit chat until after we pulled away from a stop the C/R said to the T/O: "Why do all those fat people have to squeeze in at the last minute."
With all the safety measures used on trains, does anyone know about a sharp curve or downhill stretch of track WITHOUT either a one or two shot GT?
I know of several. Most dangereous is on A4 between 28th and 34th. Trains can be doing as much as 40 there when they get to the curve which is marked 30 if I remember correctly. If a motorman isn't paying attention it's just a scary ride, but in the old days of full power a derailment at 55 mph.
Many curves without timers where there should be. There are others in place that don't make sense. I'd put one north of Liberty and North of Van Siclen on A4. North of Christopher St on track 2 on the 7th Av express. South of Hoyt on track A2 for the crossover to Hoyt would be nice too. Why did the TA put one in place south of Bway East New York on both upgrade northbound tracks? Why not grade timers in all directions in and out of Grand Central. This post would take forever to identify all the safety hazards to the NTSB. And too dangerous to take to the membership. Some are in a hurry to go home before they have started their first trip.
With the talk about a need for a new crossing over the Hudson River, why isn't the old Poukeepsie Bridge rehabilitated? If it cannot be used, then what is keeping the powers that be from building a tunnel under the Hudson for freight operation only? The money is there, the need is there, so what gives?
[With the talk about a need for a new crossing over the Hudson River, why isn't the old Poukeepsie Bridge rehabilitated? If it cannot be used, then what is keeping the powers that be from building a tunnel under the Hudson for freight operation only? The money is there, the need is there, so what gives?]
Much of the right-of-way leading up to the bridge on the west side of the river has been lost. Acquiring sufficient space would be extremely expensive and might not be possible at any price. In addition, using Poughkeepsie might not be much of a savings over the current Selkirk route.
... especially if the second Tappan Zee Bridge sees the light of day. There's a public hearing on this today.
--Mark
Are you going? Can you report on what transpires, in case it's not covered -- or only marginally covered -- in NYC media?
I'll try to get a copy of the Rockland Journal News tomorrow morning and report on anything it has. I won't be there myself (I don't even know where it is, other than that it's today).
--Mark
I can't imagine who is going to end up paying for that one. I can't believe it. That bridge is less than 50 years old. They let it rot even WITH a toll? They can't do anything about the Manhattan Bridge, but they can do a new Tappen Zee?
The plan is not to replace the existing bridge, but to add a second span a la Delaware Memorial Bridge.
(Add a second span)
Hmmm. That I'd like to see. Won't the approach roads still be a bottleneck, or are they prepared to take property to widen those as well?
I guess you could make a case for 12 lanes to the two junctions of I87 and I287, with rail service besides. The NIMBY issues would be a killer, however.
I was just recently thinking about that. I had an idea to connect the Hudson line with the line to Port Jervis and the line to Spring Valley, eliminating the trek through New Jersey. Then extending the Port Jervis line through to the Catskills when they put gambling in.
The new proposed span is supposed to have room for a rail link.
Pataki made this announcement (about the 2nd span) on Newsradio88 in New York last year.
--Mark
There's the alternative to the big bucks rail freight tunnel -- unless they put the rails on the outside and make it a suspension bridge.
Isn t that Pataki s old neighborhood? to make it easier for him to get home
Isn t that Pataki s old neighborhood?
No - his old neighborhood was Peekskill. The Tappan Zee connects Nyack with Tarrytown.
Actually, a comment made by a Rockland homeowner at the meeting was that Pataki should build the bridge in his own neighborhood connecting Peekskill with Haverstraw.
Property owners in Nyack are concerned with their property values and what the construction would do to them. Drivers are all for it, saying that something has to be done to alleviate the congestion. The bridge is part of the reason wy so many people moved to Rockland after its opening, so it's a victim of its own success.
The bridge was originally planned to handle 100K vehicles a day; it regularly handles 150K. The cost to maintain the bridge through 2012 is $1 billion, close what it would cost to build a replacement bridge. The I-287 corridor task force is reviewing alternatives for the bridge and expects to present them and its recommendation to the governor next month. The replacement bridge would be 8 - 10 lanes wide with provisions for rail "or other mass transit options". This would be a replacement - not a second bridge (as some on this forum thought).
Nyack residents were also skeptical of promises the Thruway Authority made (or will make); an old timer cited that on 11/2/1950, then-Governor Dewey stood about a block from the place where this meeting took place and said there were no plans for a bridge; 3 weeks later, engineering and technical plans for that bridge would be released.
Interesting that this is not covered at all at the Journal News' web site.
--Mark
The next time there is a meeting on this subject (replacement vs. patch and pray) someone should show up and mention the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe we could get the state to replace them both.
I always avoid the Tappen Zee bridge. It was congested back in the 1960s, due to people driving back from the Catskills. I used to hate to visit friends of my parents in Rockland -- we'd sit for what seemed like hours on the way back.
A case could be made for expanding the roads, now that I-287 is built. More capacity, and a rail freight, could take through trucking away from the Cross Bronx, another road I never take.
But that's just it: you'd have to expand the roads, not just the bridge. Is there room? Talk about NIMBY. Same thing with the Goethals and the Verrazano. No sense having a six lane road feed a twelve lane bridge.
[Same thing with the Goethals and the Verrazano. No sense having a six lane road feed a twelve lane bridge. ]
The Goethal's was 4 lanes the last time I checked.
The reason they opened the lower level of the VNB was to provide redundancy in case an accident blocked the upper level.
The next time there is a meeting on this subject (replacement vs. patch and pray) someone should show up and mention the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe we could get the state to replace them both.
It would do no good. The Thruway Authority has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge.
--Mark
Right, but isn't the thruway authority a state agency, and isn't the Manhattan bridge a property of the State of NY?
-Hank
Manhattan Bridge is NYC property.
As I understand it, all of the highway infrastructure in NYC is owned by the state, with the city as the regular maintainer. For major projects, the state oversees the project, such as the repaving of the Staten Island Expressway. Lots of state DOT people on the job there. (State DOT logo is a blue cicrle with a 'T' in it, very similar to AT&T's logo.)
-Hank
"Ownership" varies for different facilities. The Manhattan Bridge was authorized, built and paid for entirely by New York City. There was no state action, not even authorizing legislation.
Highways that are built with any federal funds are owned by the NY State because the feds deal only with state governments. Reconstruction projects that are financed by the feds are managed by NY State for the same reason.
Streets and roads are ususally divided into state maintenance and local mainentance. Technically, any road with a state highway designation (NY 27, NY 440, etc.) would be maintained by state crews, but as big as New York City is, the rules get changed around a little here.
I think the important issue is, relative to its population, there are only a handful of miles designated state highways and maintained with state funding in NYC -- even in the downstate area as a whole. That's why I think it's fair to have state taxes pay to maintain what downstate does have -- subway and RR rights of way.
It gets even more interesting. The state can shift appropriated federal money between approved projects in any fiscal year. The state rammed Westway down the City's throat. While foes tied Westway up in the courts, the state received construction money for the project. The state used this money to build roads upstate on an accelerated schedule.
(The state can shift transportation money out of the city for the Tappen Zee.)
Guess we know what will happen to the former Gowanus Expressway, now that Molinari refused to back W.
Actually, I think the tolls will pay for it, but it puts the state in a bad position for the inevitable environmental lawsuit. Concede you are counting on more tolls, and the NIMBYs will claim the new bridge will generate traffic and violate the clean air act. Say you will use the existing tolls, and you wonder where the money will come from.
The strategy -- we'll have to spend a billion fixing the bridge anyway, and it might not work. They can point to you know what as an example.
" provisions for rail "or other mass transit options"."
Maybe they can run the #1 line over the bridge to Nyack.
N Broadway Express
Good Idea, but Good Luck in seeing it happen...
Frank D
[(Add a second span)
Hmmm. That I'd like to see. Won't the approach roads still be a bottleneck, or are they prepared to take property to widen those as well?
I guess you could make a case for 12 lanes to the two junctions of I87 and I287, with rail service besides. The NIMBY issues would be a killer, however.]
From what I hear, rail is part of the proposal. I've noticed, though, that by the time things get built the rail component has a tendency to disappear.
According to all the reports I've read, the plan is for a direct replacement, not a twin span. There are other factors on the TZ bridge, such as the fact that it is actually floating, and not achored to the river bottom.
-Hank
For me, I'd hate to see anything negative happening to that beautiful bridge. A second, parallel span would be nice, as many areas across the country have done to inadequate spans.
Now, my focus is once again on Governor's Island. The talks are starting up again about what to do with it. All sorts of ideas are in the works. My question: how will masses of people get to this island?
A ferry such as the one the Coast Guard operated will be inadequate for large amounts of people to get to whatever they put there. Where will cars park before people get on the boats? Will cars be aloud on the island? What about mass transit? Build another tunnel only to have
it lie unused?
I have a novel approach to the Gov Island situation: why not use it as a military installation!! After all, with all the talk of terrorism wouldn't it make sense to keep NY protected?
Joe C
Now, my focus is once again on Governor's Island. The talks are starting up again about what to do with it. All sorts of ideas are in the works. My question: how will masses of people get to this island?
A ferry such as the one the Coast Guard operated will be inadequate for large amounts of people to get to whatever they put there. Where will cars park before people get on the boats? Will cars be aloud on the island? What about mass transit? Build another tunnel only to have it lie unused?
Quick question: was the Transit Museum station ever intended to serve a line that continued to Governor's Island? Looking at the maps, that's the only reason I can think of that would justify building a one-station spur like that.
I'm obviously not caught up on my history here, so please forgive me if this is a well-known subject.
Regardless of intent, that would seem like a reasonable plan to me if Governor's Island were to become developed. You could re-activate that station, run a line down Henry or a parallel street, then dig a short tunnel to the island. You could go to Baltic and dig the tunnel, going over/under the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, or go down to Union St and go under Brooklyn-Battery before it goes under water.
Does that make any sense?
[Quick question: was the Transit Museum station ever intended to serve a line that continued to Governor's Island? Looking at the maps, that's the only reason I can think of that would justify building a one-station spur like that.]
It was supposed to be part of a new line between Manhattan and Brooklyn. I would highly doubt that there had ever been any plans for a Governor's Island station, as the island was an Army base presumably with restricted access.
It was supposed to be part of a new line between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I guess that was before all of the four other tunnels just north of it were built, or at least before they were all operated by the same organization...
I would highly doubt that there had ever been any plans for a Governor's Island station, as the island was an Army base presumably with restricted access.
Makes sense.
Congress had to force down DOD's throat to have an escape/venttilation tower for the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel there. It block the view of some private officer's (flag rank) houses too.
Governor's Island is a great place. We had a P.S. School there but all the older childern went to the city for school. The Coast Guard would open it up twice a year and give tours of both forts there. Also on the Buttermilk channel side you would see all the impounded boats, some nice ones were there too>G<.
With the Coast Guard having given up on Governor's Island there is talk that it will be turned over to either the Smithsonian Institute (because of the many historic forts there) or the Dept. of the Interior (perhaps as a part of Gateway).
Also, there are plans that would turn the large officer's building (supposedly the largest in the United States) into a four star hotel. But that aspect might only come about it/when the Governor's Island casino plans get finalized (yeah, right....dream on).
Should Governor's Island be opened up to the general public the idea of a subway link would make alot of sense (or even some kind of Roosevelt Island-like tram system).
Doug aka BMTman
I figure you would have both the existing ferry service, and a new transit museum. Let's dream a little dream....
Build out the line from Court St to Governer's Isl, then hook it to the 2nd Ave line. Build a spur on the island, and a new building to house the entire museum collection, buses and trains. Ban private vehicles from the island, and to keep the island 'pollution-free' use either battery-buses or trolley buses to shuttle people around the island. (Or perhaps a Miami-style people-mover, given that we're dreaming.)
-Hank
Why not connect from Court Street (the Museum) under Governor's Island into the upper level at Broad Street? The unbuilt Nassau-Chystie connection could then finally be built, which could give access from Nassau/Centre (and Montague Street) to 2nd Avenue, 6th Avenue, and 8th Avenue.
The negative is, obviously, loss of the Museum.
I like the aerial tram idea, but would it be able to be high enough to clear East River shipping? And would it go from Manhattan (South Ferry) or from Brooklyn?
(I wouldn't particularly like a Manhattan landfall for a tram, though--it would strike me as another of those "anti-outer-boroughs" things done in the City--like letting Manhattan keep the original telephone area code while the rest of the City had to change to accommodate the Manhattan establishment.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I'm not a big fan of the plan. If the Federal Government just sells the land, and you get a lot of luxury development, the result will be a big chunk of net tax payments over service costs that could be used for services elsewhere. Somehow, attracting taxpayers offends our political culture, which is composed of people who want to spend other people's money.
As it is, the city will probably end up subsidizing a snobby preserve, accessible only to those who can afford a private ferry. The Municipal Art Society's dream come true.
[I'm not a big fan of the plan. If the Federal Government just sells the land, and you get a lot of luxury development, the result will be a big chunk of net tax payments over service costs that could be used for services elsewhere. Somehow, attracting taxpayers offends our political culture, which is composed of people who want to spend other people's money.
As it is, the city will probably end up subsidizing a snobby preserve, accessible only to those who can afford a private ferry. The Municipal Art Society's dream come true.]
Or worse, nobody will go there. Who wants to get on a ferry from the Downtown Business District to hang out in a park?
But from what I understand, Giuliani's privatization plans were frowned on by the Federal Government, which is why the $1 price is in question. They wanted to know why they should give the property to the City if the City was just going to sell it.
Seems to me they should either auction it off and let it be developed for residential purposes, or give it to Columbia or NYU for use as a downtown campus. It's ideally suited for that sort of thing; Columbia could move the business and law schools there, with dormitories and some of the larger laboratories, and free up some space on the way overcrowded Morningside Heights campus. An expansion of either university would benefit the City's economy.
Or NYU could move the entire University there and get out of the disgusting area where it is presently located. My daughter is considering both NYU and Columbia for law school; I hope she doesn't pick NYU, not because of any concern over the education itself - I'm sure that would be excellent - but because of the neighborhood. It seemed to be populated 100% by people whose cultural mores were, to say the least, significantly different than ours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Or NYU could move the entire University there and get out of the disgusting area where it is presently located. My daughter is considering both NYU and Columbia for law school; I hope she doesn't pick NYU, not because of any concern over the education itself - I'm sure that would be excellent - but because of the neighborhood. It seemed to be populated 100% by people whose cultural mores were, to say the least, significantly different than ours.]
Hey, that's my neighborhood! I love it down here, and while I can't claim I'm not creeped out at times, I find the freak show amusing more often than not.
Anyway, I wouldn't make too much of a few highly visible denizens who hang out in Washington Square Park; they aren't representative of most of the people who live there.
I hope not. The freakiest was about two blocks west and one block south of the park, where we passed a fellow dressed in full leather, hood included, carrying whips and a large spiked ball on the end of a chain. Gave me the shivers! And there were others almost as unnerving. What bothered me even more is that my daughter didn't seem terribly bothered by it - guess she's inured to such things. Not me, though - not ever!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I hope not. The freakiest was about two blocks west and one block south of the park, where we passed a fellow dressed in full leather, hood included, carrying whips and a large spiked ball on the end of a chain. Gave me the shivers! And there were others almost as unnerving. What bothered me even more is that my daughter didn't seem terribly bothered by it - guess she's inured to such things. Not me, though - not ever!]
Oh, him? That was just the Dean.
A large spiked ball on the end of a chain? -- Actually what you describe is a WEAPON called a mace. Sheesh, in the land of gun control (NY City) I'm surprised some officer of the law didn't make an arrest.
I think I've seen that guy! Did he have another guy on a leash?
-Hank:
PS-The weirdest thing I ever saw on a city street was a naked guy staring at the winows to Lord and Taylor on 5th Ave. Just standing there!
-Hanl
No, he was by himself, but the behavior you described wouldn't have surprised me, given the way he was dressed.
Back when we were full-time in North Carolina and I was actively involved in day-to-day business at the Hobby Shop, we had a young male customer (mid-twenties, I guess) who occasionally came in with two females of about the same age, one wearing a studded collar and the other wearing a leather harness. He held leashes connected to both; they normally walked in front of him, often holding hands with each other. Other than their style of dress and the leashes (okay, and their strangely-dyed hair) they seemed relatively normal, talking with him, with us, looking at and occasionally buying merchandise (he bought lots of balsa wood and small plastic structural shapes, the one girl bought lots of paint and model cars). But I've never seen anyone else like that in NC. This fellow in NYC was only the strangest of a bunch of weird ones all in the same area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can top that in strange. One time, last summer, I saw a fat man wearing only a loincloth on a moped.
[(I wouldn't particularly like a Manhattan landfall for a tram, though--it would strike me as another of those "anti-outer-boroughs" things done in the City--like letting Manhattan keep the original telephone area code while the rest of the City had to change to accommodate the Manhattan establishment.)]
It was the only thing that made sense. This new arrangement is for the dogs--dialing 11 digits to call someone in the apartment next door?
The area code itself doesn't matter.
But what are you going to do? split Manhattan along Fifth Avenue? I do think, however, that the 718/347 overlay is silly. There you have clear borders that you can use to split.
I do hope that the FCC doesn't shove 10 digit dialing down our throats, if it does, hopefully they won't make you dial 1 before the area code when dialing out of area, which will then be redundant.
I do hope that the FCC doesn't shove 10 digit dialing down our throats, if it does, hopefully they won't make you dial 1 before the area code when dialing out of area, which will then be redundant
Welcome to what has unfortunately become, the real world. Its been done before in other metro areas in the country. Miami is one.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Eventually it won't matter as i-phones become more popular.
Eventually it won't matter as i-phones become more popular
Two years ago, somebody gave me a prediction that in the near future, long distance phone service will be free, that it will be provided by our ISP's. I haven't tried using my PC on the Internet yet to make phone calls, so I don't know how reliable it is at this point. Give it time, though. It will be perfected. One thing I know has a long way to go before it is reliable is voice chat. It breaks up too much.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Two years ago, somebody gave me a prediction that in the near future, long distance phone service will be free, that it will be provided by our ISP's. I haven't tried using my PC on the Internet yet to make phone calls, so I don't know how reliable it is at this point. Give it time, though. It will be perfected. One thing I know has a long way to go before it is reliable is voice chat. It breaks up too much.]
I believe they're working on protocols that will prioritize Internet traffic to let high priority signals like real time audio and video pass unimpeded.
Long distance service is actually almost free now, if you have something like AT&T's 7c plan, because most of what you're paying goes to government subsidies.
The future is here. Try dialpad.com. Not perfect, but pretty damn close to what you're talking about.
Also, AT&T's big business plan right now is to buy up all the cable TV lines in the country and sell you high-speed Internet AND PHONE service through your cable line.
The future will be interesting, indeed...
The future is here. Try dialpad.com. Not perfect, but pretty damn close to what you're talking about.
Also, AT&T's big business plan right now is to buy up all the cable TV lines in the country and sell you high-speed Internet AND PHONE service through your cable line.
The future will be interesting, indeed...
I heard about that too. Bottom line is that the Internet will be at the center of everything communication wise, even TV. We will use our computers for everything - Web surfing, telephone calls, TV watching, radio listening. Also, even things that in the past were considered passive (TV and radio) will probably become interactive in the future. I play chess online in real time with people that I don't know and never met. You could even chat with the person while you're playing. When voice chat is made more reliable, I'll probably be able to talk with my chess opponents in real time as I'm playing them.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah. The one is only necessary if you are calling out of your local calling area. 10-digit dialing is going to be the wave of the future. The city currently has a waiver on the 10-digit requirement, which will eventually be repealed.
-Hank
[But what are you going to do? split Manhattan along Fifth Avenue? I do think, however, that the 718/347 overlay is silly. There you have clear borders that you can use to split.]
If Manhattan has to be split, at least let it be along a border. But does it really? It's still sharing 212 with the boros. I'd want to see a separate Manhattan area code first.
[I do hope that the FCC doesn't shove 10 digit dialing down our throats, if it does, hopefully they won't make you dial 1 before the area code when dialing out of area, which will then be redundant.]
The whole thing would be moot if the cheapo telcos would convert their switches to 8 digit dialing.
Manhattan has had 212 to itself since July 1, 1993.
[Manhattan has had 212 to itself since July 1, 1993.]
I didn't know that.
Philly is 100-percent 10-digit dialing. Dialing anything 7-digit just won't work. Next door, same area code - doesn't matter...
It's been that way for a while - I can honestly say it's really weird when I'm out of town and can dial 7 digits. 10-digit dialing isn't that bad. I got used to it very quickly.
The reason for overlays of course, is so no one has to change their number - and I prefer it that way. I'd rather dial 10 digits, (which is easy to get used to,) than lose touch with old friends, etc...
01/10/2000
We're all victims of technology. The added area codes are a result of an explosion on technology related equipment. Fax machines,computer modems and now cell phones. The eventually ran out of usuable numbers and expansion would mean area codes within area codes.
Bill Newkirk
Actually, you're 1/2 right. The other 1/2 is the increased competition for phone service. There was, a few months back, a long post on how numbers are assigned to companies in blocks of 10,000, yet they don't use all 10,000. (IE, Hank's Telephone is assigned all numbers within the 912 exchange, but I'm the only customer. I hav 9,999 available phone numbers, after I use my one.)
-Hank
They tried to do away with assigning blocks of 10,000 numbers to businesses in metro Denver in order to stretch the availability of 303 numbers. It worked for 6 months. We've had 10-digit dialing since February of 1998; it was voluntary until Oct. 1 of that year when the overlapping 720 area code was implemented, when it became mandatory. Splitting the 303 area was considered, but wasn't done.
As for multiple non-overlapping area codes in cities, look at Chicago. Only the Loop area has the good old 312 area code; the rest of Chicago is now 773.
[The reason for overlays of course, is so no one has to change their number - and I prefer it that way. I'd rather dial 10 digits, (which is easy to get used to,) than lose touch with old friends, etc...]
But if area codes are assigned geographically, people can keep their old numbers with new area codes.
But it's still a pain in the fanny. A significant portion of business relies on long-distance telephone calls, be they dialup data connections, fax, or real live voice. Changing the area code is a major impact. Dialing 10 digits is just something to get used to. You probably don't remember four, five, or six digit dialing, but there are some of us out here who do. I had four digit dialing as recently as 1982 - you should have heard the complaints when people found out they were going to have to dial seven digits to call their neighbor! But they got used to it, just as we will to 10 digit dialing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1981, I lived in Arlington, Virginia. That was area code 703. Right across the Potomac River was Washington, DC and area code 202; upstream a bit was Maryland and 301.
The weird thing was -- I could dial anything INSIDE the "Beltway", irregardless of area code, with just SEVEN digits. If it was outside the "Beltway", even in my own 703 area code, I had to dial TEN digits.
I had four digit dialing as recently as 1982
What? Four-digit dialing in 1982? Where?
North Carolina, Spring Hope exchange (Carolina Telephone, now Sprint). Four digits got you anyone else on the exchange. Two other exchanges were accessible by five-digit dialing. Anything beyond that you had to dial the operator first. We didn't get direct dial capability until June 1982. Now we still have seven digit dialing for some of the expanded local area but we have a new area code so we have to dial ten digits to reach parts of it, including the towns of Bunn (3.5 miles away, where I get my mail) and the county seat of Louisburg (15 miles away, which would also be my address if I used the rural route box). They drew the area code boundary approximately at the county line, but the 478 exchange straddles the Franklin-Nash line so (as always) those of us on the Franklin County side got stuck with a Nash County exchange and area code. Even 911, introduced to our area in 1995, still rings the wrong dispatch center for those of us on the Franklin County side.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
North Carolina, Spring Hope exchange (Carolina Telephone, now Sprint). Four digits got you anyone else on the exchange. Two other exchanges were accessible by five-digit dialing. Anything beyond that you had to dial the operator first. We didn't get direct dial capability until June 1982.
Wow. It sounds like NC didn't keep up with the rest of the country. NYC always had 7-digit dialing (I was born in 1954). When I moved to Florida in 1980, we had the 7-digit dialing here too. Although in NY, I didn't need a 1 when dialing long distance (going back to Aug. 1980), and when I got to Florida, we needed the 1 here. BTW, what do you mean by Carolina Telephone? I thought NC was served by BellSouth like Florida is. I thought the entire South was served by BellSouth (used to be Southern Bell).
North Carolina is served by several different telephone companies, depending on where you live. BellSouth (formerly Southern Bell) is one, Sprint (formerly Carolina Telephone and others that it absorbed) is another, GTE (or whatever they call themselves now) is a third, and there are probably others still out there. Until Sprint took over, Carolina Telephone was much cheaper and somewhat more reliable than Southern Bell; since the Sprint takeover it's been one rate increase after another, and forget service - our line goes bad whenever we get a hard rain and it takes days for them to fix it (still works, just horrible static, forget the Internet). The service number rings in some other state now, they don't care about the local people. When the area code split came they could have split our exchange so that those of us on the Franklin County side of the line had the same area code as the rest of the county, but noooo, that might have been good customer service. BellSouth did that in several places, but not Sprint. I could go on and on, but I won't ... we're drifting too far off topic already.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
North Carolina is served by several different telephone companies, depending on where you live. BellSouth (formerly Southern Bell) is one, Sprint (formerly Carolina Telephone and others that it absorbed) is another, GTE (or whatever they call themselves now) is a third, and there are probably others still out there.
GTE is the former name of Sprint.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No, they are distinct companies. GTE still exists, unless Bell Atlantic has gone through with buying it.
No GTE is still a seperate company. Of course, it could be a 'Norfolk Southern' thing. Bell Atlantic is in merger talks with GTE (or may actually have agreed to buy them) and MCI-Worldcom is trying to buy Sprint.
-Hank
Well, let's put it this way: New York City probably went to 7-digit dialing just as soon as it came out. IIRC, that may have been around 1949. South Bend, my hometown, had 5-digit dialing into the early 1950s, but I'm too young to remember that. I do remember phone numbers beginning with the letters of the exchange name; ours was CEntral 4-1639.
Baltimore (and the rest of the state) got 10-digit dialing last year. BA split the state in half in 1992 (east - 410; West - 301). Last year they proposed splitting again, but the business community in 410 screamed - they spent many $ changing everything when the first split occurred, so BA went to the overlay plan - 410 got 443 as overlay and 301 got 240. Our land and cells and pager is in 410, my daughter's page is 410, but her cell is 443.
As to exchange names, our 254 exchange used to be CLifton 4 - before that it was just CLifton. I have a WE model 302 with an original number card on my desk - it says "WAIT for Dial Tone; CLifton 5179".
When that number card was new, Peter Witts were newly on the 19 line,
half the line's service was worked with semi-convertibles. (See, I'm on topic.)
Only 10 digits! In parts of Jersey some municipalities are split between area codes and you have to dial 11 digits! (but still as a local call). In NYC to dial between 212 and 718 you dial as 1+718( or 1-212) and the number.
Here in my neck of the woods, you don't need to dial 1 for calls within the 303/720 area. I'll bet it's because the two area codes overlay the same area.
[But it's still a pain in the fanny. A significant portion of business relies on long-distance telephone calls, be they dialup data connections, fax, or real live voice. Changing the area code is a major impact. Dialing 10 digits is just something to get used to. You probably don't remember four, five, or six digit dialing, but there are some of us out here who do. I had four digit dialing as recently as 1982 - you should have heard the complaints when people found out they were going to have to dial seven digits to call their neighbor! But they got used to it, just as we will to 10 digit dialing.]
I do remember 4 and 5 digit dialing, and it made sense.
But--and it's a big but--10 digits = 10 billion different numbers, and there ain't 10 billion phones in Manhattan!
Well, 10 digits covers the entire US, Canada, and some offshore islands, not just Manhattan. Don't dial a number you don't know in area code 809, and now probably some other new codes - there are a lot of 900-type calls in that area code that aren't regulated by US law and they bill you for $25/minute or more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, 10 digits covers the entire US, Canada, and some offshore islands, not just Manhattan. Don't dial a number you don't know in area code 809, and now probably some other new codes - there are a lot of 900-type calls in that area code that aren't regulated by US law and they bill you for $25/minute or more.
where kis area code 809?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Down in the Caribbean - it covers several island nations, some of them with reasonable consumer protection laws and some without. And the new area codes have been assigned as overlays rather than assigning 809 to just one country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Down in the Caribbean - it covers several island nations, some of them with reasonable consumer protection laws and some without. And the new area codes have been assigned as overlays rather than assigning 809 to just one country.
Well, I'll keep away from that one. I thought all foreign dialing was different from dialing US numbers. Our access code is 1. Other countries have different ones. Is 809 accessed with a 1?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, it is. It goes back to the days when these countries, like the US and Canada, were all served by the Bell System. They still subscribe to what is now Telecordia for allocation of numbers, hence they fall under our area code system.
The scam most commonly practiced is this: you will receive a call, usually on your answering machine, with a message to dial an 809 number because someone in your family - identified by name - is in the hospital as the result of an accident. Naturally, you tend to panic, and dial the number without hesitating. Then they keep you on the line as long as possible at an (undisclosed) $25 or so per minute. The phone company gets a couple of dollars and the scammer gets the rest because it's essentially a 900 number. Because of the way the billing is set up, your long distance carrier will NOT credit you with the call, and it's not illegal in some of those countries to do this, so you're stuck. Trust me, your long distance carrier would love to stop this crap, because they are the ones who bear the brunt of the complaints, but so far they are powerless to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Because of the way the billing is set up, your long distance carrier will NOT credit you with the call, and it's not illegal in some of those countries to do this, so you're stuck. Trust me, your long distance carrier would love to stop this crap, because they are the ones who bear the brunt of the complaints, but so far they are powerless to do so.]
One possibility--a warning message whenever someone dials one of these area codes.
BTW, on the rare occasions when I've been the victim of one or another scam (generally collect calls at inflated prices), I've made it quite clear to the phone company that I won't pay the bill; they always eat it.
That's because there are laws that protect against that within our borders. The international situation is different, unfortunately.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
809 no longer covers the entire Carribean. Each island country now has it's own code. Codes to watch out for:
Anguilla 264
Antigua and Barbuda 268
Bahamas 242
Barbados 246
Bermuda 441
Cayman Islands 345
Dominica 767
Grenada 473
Jamacia 876
Montserrat 664
Nevis and St. Kitts 869
Puerto Rico 787
St. Lucia 758
St. Vincent and the Genadines 784
Trinidad & Tobago 868
Turks and Caicos 649
British Virgin Islands 284
US Virgin Islands 340
All others are 809. Guam and the Marianas are 670
For that matter, Illinois has 10 different codes, yet 10 states and the District (Montana, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, DC, New Mexico, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, and Idaho) have only one each.
-Hank
Puerto Rico 787
US Virgin Islands 340
Why should I watch out for these?
Why not? Unless you know someone there, don't call those area codes, because it'll ring up your phone bill like my sister at the thermostat!
-Hank
Well, in that case one should list Alaska and Hawaii too. They're farther even!
Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are subject to most but not all of the same laws against telefraud that protect the US. Also, unlike Alaska and Hawaii, they are not included in the "one-rate" plans that the major carriers offer - if I dial Alaska it costs me the same 7 center per minute that calling my daughter in Nevada, but if I call Puerto Rico it costs something like 29 cents per minute (figure not exact, I have never called there).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Josh Hill seems to have missed my point about the area codes--why wasn't Manhattan forced to change instead of the other boroughs having to change all their stationery, business cards, and the like? Manhattan doesn't have a majority of the City's residents but the "outer boroughs" get shafted time and again. Why is 'R' a 'Broadway' train rather than the 'Fourth Avenue' it was for most of its history? It's the subservience of the other boroughs to Manhattan in City Hall and TA thinking.
We're about to go through an area-code reconfiguration in northern New York--and they probably will expect us to accept that Syracuse will keep our area code while we have to change--some of us will be doing our best to fight it. Perhaps if the phone company were willing to pay for all the new stationery, directories, and listings that people are stuck paying for, and perhaps give us free calls to call everyone we know who has our pre-change number, it might be more palatable.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
[Josh Hill seems to have missed my point about the area codes--why wasn't Manhattan forced to change instead of the other boroughs having to change all their stationery, business cards, and the like? Manhattan doesn't have a majority of the City's residents but the "outer boroughs" get shafted time and again. Why is 'R' a 'Broadway' train rather than the 'Fourth Avenue' it was for most of its history? It's the subservience of the other boroughs to Manhattan in City Hall and TA thinking.]
It's not that the outer boroughs get shafted. Manhattan is by far the center of the City's business activity. So great is its dominance that it's almost pointless to speak of second place. It's no surprise, given this state of affairs, that it tends to be the focus of most forms of attention.
[We're about to go through an area-code reconfiguration in northern New York--and they probably will expect us to accept that
Syracuse will keep our area code while we have to change--some of us will be doing our best to fight it. Perhaps if the phone company were willing to pay for all the new stationery, directories, and listings that people are stuck paying for, and perhaps give us free calls to call everyone we know who has our pre-change number, it might be more palatable.]
Area-code changes are a fact of life. Some places in the country have gone through two changes within a relatively short period of time. These changes haven't caused any chaos, and there's no point in worrying.
Manhattan does have a majority of the city's residents, if you count their place of work rather than their place of residence. Throw in jobs in the other boroughs supported by the spending of Manhattan businesses and commuters, and taxes collected in Manhattan, and you could say that it accounts for most of the city. In fact, it accounts for most of the Metro Area and, through State taxes, a good chunk of Upstate NY as well.
Outer borough politicians don't understand the importance of Manhattan to their constiuents, and of the subway that takes them there. That's why no one sqwalks about the Manhattan Bridge.
(re: military installation) To thwart terrorists, Guiliani is moving City Hall to Governor's Island, where it will be inaccessible to all, and therefore safe. City Hall will open as a museum annex of the Museum of the City of New York, and the Transit Mussum annex beneath it will finally see the light of d - er, the vault light of day :)
--Mark
A ferry such as the one the Coast Guard operated will be inadequate for large amounts of people to get to whatever they put there.
The Staten Island Ferry has 4 large boats operational at all times. All four are used during rush hours. Only one or two are used at other times.
The Governor's Island round trip from South Ferry is 15 minutes. The two Barberi class boats hold 6,500 passengers. That's 26,000 each way per hour.The three Kennedy class boats hold 3500 passengers and 45 cars.They can also forget about the cars and add another 2500 passengers.
If you are worried about rush hours, then use one of the two Austen class boats which holds 1500 passenger.
Stop dreaming about a subway stop.
Thnx for the update. But does that mean the city(?) would order these type of boats or just borrow the idle boats from SI service when applicable? By the way, I assume the Austen & Barberi vessels are the
two different size "newer" boats that came in the 1980's.
Joe C
I do not profess to speak for the city. However, the existing boats are available and new boats cost a ton. The obvious choice would be to use a single extra boat for the Governor's Island run.
There are 3 classes of boats. The Kennedy class has 3 boats. The hold 3500 passengers and 45 automobiles. They were delivered around 1965 and are ready for replacement. The Barberi class has 2 boats. These are also called super ferries. They hold 6500 passengers and no cars. They were delivered around 1981. The Austen class has 2 boats. They hold 1500 passengers and no cars. They were delivered around 1985 and are used during off-peak. They have significantly less operating cost. The Austen class has only 2 decks whereas the others have 3.
I can't see a single boat plying the corridor between both islands. Especially if the city puts some high-volume attraction out on Gov Island. One boat, 15 minute headways at best? Not in this town.
A new overhead tram? Perhaps. They don't cost all that much, perhaps in the long run cheaper than one or two new boats & fuel. And the cost of reconfiguring the docks.
Joe C
The minimum interval for the SI ferry was 12 minutes in the pre-VNB days - using Merrill and Murray Class Boats - roughly equivalent to today's Kennedy Class and Austen Class in capacity. The off-peak interval was 20 minutes. I already commented on the capacity in another post.
The docks are already in place on the NY side. You have the 1906 SI Ferry terminal that the GC used. You also have the present 1950 SI Ferry terminal at Whitehall. That gives you 5 slips total and 4 slips always operational. You will have to build a new 2 slip terminal on Governor's Island, if you want to be able to load and unload on 2 levels simultaneously.
As I said in a previous post, the 1906 ferr terminal is in no shape for mass use. The upper level apron has not been used for decades and needs a total rebuild. A few years ago when a SI Ferry (Kennedy Class) was diverted there they used the lower apron only (I was on the boat).
The coast guard ran two ferry's (owned three) on a 12 - 15 minute headway rushhours all other times it was one boat.f Remember with a two boat operation to Governor's Island one of the boats has to sideslip or move to the side to alow each other to pass. The coast guard always had the Island bound ferry move out of the way.
There also could be additonal access on Buttermilk Channel, there is a marina there now on Governor's Island for non tradional ferrys.
I think a Tram, ala the RI Tram, would be best. You could even start from 'up high' at the Battery Maritime Building. You would hopefully need only one tower. Hey, you could even recycle the RI tram, which is now redundant, and should have been taken down when the tunnel opened.
-Hank
A tram trip takes about the same amount of time as a ferry boat. However, a tram car - such as the RI - can hold only about 100 people. There are any significantly bigger models available. This works out to less than 2% the capacity of a single ferry boat.
The posters objecting to using ferries on the basis of insufficient capacity, cannot propose an aerial tram as a reasonable alternative.
Don't get me worng!! I'm no way against ferries. The more the merrier.
Would prefer a vessel like the SI boats, or the ones operated by Wash. State. Those little Port Imperial boats are too cutesy for my. Nice, but...
What I DO object to, and it is a done deal, is the removal of the C.G.
There is nothing like good defense. But that's subject for another board, perhaps.
My suggestion about a tram was only because I didn't know what the city had in mind for the island. Obviously a high volume attraction could not be handled effectively with dinky trams. I'm still pissed over the Newark Monorail fiasco. Didn't the NJ official think people WITH LUGGAGE would be riding these? The terminals, as you know, were originally designed for heavy rapid transit; the building are set up that way. Perhaps for PATH (or Hudson Tubes back then).
Anyway, I DO like ferries. Honest I do.
Joe C
The Coast Guard didn't leave NY, they moved to occupy a portion of the abandoned NAVSTANY on Staten Island.
-Hank
[re capability of ferries to serve a developed Governor's Island]
Physical capacity isn't the only issue. Part of the reason why the Coast Guard vacated Governor's Island was the high cost of maintaining ferry service. If the island is fully developed for commercial and residential uses, even more service will be needed. Who's going to pay?
If the island is fully developed for commercial and residential uses, even more service will be needed.
I really think this is a non-issue. Please recheck the capacity figures. A single Barberi class boat will provide a capacity equal to that of the load on the all the downtown Lexington Ave Expresses curently leaving Grand Central during rush hours.
The last time I checked (about 5 years ago) it cost about $24,000 to charter a Barberi class boat for the day (8 hours). (I believe that an Austen class boat was around $20,000.) This figure included all costs, including depreciation, incremental maintenance and profit. I understand that the marginal cost (labor and fuel) is significantly less. I think that this figure should be able to get you started with any proforma for assessing costs.
The feds' $1 sale of Governors' to NYC is by no means a done deal. The Republicans may want to expedite it while Rudy is running, but if Hillary gets in while the Republicans maintain a majority, Governors Island will probably remain undeveloped...in any case, the time to do it is now, while conditions are best for a sale. It'll take 5-10 years for construction most likely.
Only one Austen boat is in service the other is a hanger queen (used for parts). Staten Island Ferry is pressed to run a four boat schedule at most times. They fall back to 3 many times especially when one boat is in dry dock for mandated USCG inspections.
The slip on Governor's Island will only take a Kennedy Class or smaller and remember there is no upper level apron at the Island. Also the upper level apron on the Manhattan side hasn't been used for years at Governors Island ferry terminal. The Coast Guard Ferry's only had lower level access.
Yes there will never be a subway stop in the near or even far future but additonal boats would be needed if Govenor's Island is reopened.
There are currently 7 boats in the fleet. Barberi and Newhouse (Barberi Class), Kennedy, Legion and Lehman (Kennedy Class) and Austen and Noble (Austen Class). One boat is always undergoing maintenance and inspection. They require 4 large and 1 small boat for a normal schedule.
There is rarely any reason for having two active small boats. Accordingly, one is mothballed to save money. A mothballed boat can be returned to service within 1 or 2 days. They rotate the mothballed boat at regular intervals. (They would use 2 small boats during off-peak daytime hours, if there were not political opposition to eliminating automobile tranport.) They do not, according to legend, require 2 small boats to keep 1 running.
Historically, ferry operations had been insulated from politics. Mayors and Ferry Commissioners came and went. The professional operations people stayed and did their job in a competent, steady and unspectacular manner. There would be a single mishap every decade that resulted in a score of injuries and no loss of life.
Approximately three years ago, the present mayoral administration and SI Boro Pres decided that they needed to take a more direct interest in ferry operations. They brought in their own man to control what they felt were excessive maintenance expenditures. He had no prior maritime experience. This new man's managerial skills were shown by keeping a Sanitation Department maintenance garage within budget. He was able to give clear demonstration of the effects of these managerial techniques on ferry operations within a year.
It has taken over a year and probably some more, with plenty of overtime, to catch up on the maintenance functions that were missed and spare parts that were not ordered. Over one year was lost in specifying replacements for the Kennedy class boats which are now past their economic life. However, having to run 3 boat rush hour schedules will pass - either when they have brought all their boats up to snuff or when the Kennedy class replacements are delivered.
This will occur well within the next five years and way before there is any recreational facility available on Governor's Island.
The feeling was that (in 1974) Penn Central burned the Pok Bridge to force all east/west traffic through Selkirk and put the Erie Lackawanna out of business. Hence the Ulster County side tracks were torn up. As I understand it the bridge is in far better shape than many folks think. The New Haven did some pier work to strengthen the foundation. Its currently part of a hike/bike trail scheme, periodically open.
Regarding Govs Island, when I worked at the City Planning Dept in NYC there was some talk about an aerial tramway. But that seems silly. I thought an express bus turnout stop in the Battery Tunnel might work. Apparrently bridging the Buttermilk Channel would require quite a hefty bridge (draw span) to allow continued navigation, so a bridge to Brooklyn might be out of the question. Maybe Moses had the right idea with a Brooklyn-Battery Bridge?
Regarding Govs Island, when I worked at the City Planning Dept in NYC there was some talk about an aerial tramway. But that
seems silly. I thought an express bus turnout stop in the Battery Tunnel might work.
How many people were you trying to get on and off the island?
I dont know if there was ever a real figure established. The focus then was to do something quick cheap and dirty, so to speak. The feeling then was that the island might have become a casino or theme park of some sort, or just open space. City Planning looked at a number of alternatives, just to see what was feasible, but not much more.
I also dont know if the idea ever went beyond the conceptual stage, though probably not. I dont think a conventional 2-car 'gondola" type system would work (headway would be too long and capacity would be too low) but a multiple cable/multiple car system might. I believe Titan PRT systems has such designs in the conceptual stage.
Perhaps a good test case for such technology? Or another example of "you get what you pay for"? Time will tell!Time was when developers pumped money into mass transit (or were mass transit providers themselves). Today they expect government to pick up the tab.
01/07/2000
I saw an article in today's (LI) Newsday stating that the NY State Thruway Authority was "considering" a 1 billion dollar replace of the Tappan Zee Bridge which has seen service since 1956. They state that repairing and maintaining the span thru 2012 would cost 1.2 billion dollars, hence the cheaper alternative of replacement.
NOW THIS IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING....plans would call for bus lanes and RAIL access. Hmmmm! OKAY!, what are your thoughts on this and what rail service could utilize a NEW Tappan Zee Bridge? Remember, it's not written in stone, They're "considering"
Bill Newkirk
Well, now that's interesting!
I suppose the future of trans-Hudson transit in the Tappan Zee area depends on your opinion of Metro North and NJT. M-N would certainly like to get its Pascack and Pt Jervis trains wholly in NY state. But is a Hudson Line/Rail Bridge link feasible in this day and age? Possibly, if a new bridge is feasible. Also recall the fantasy of a Middletown-Stamford cross county rail line.
Ive got to think:
Its probably cheaper to build a new highway-only bridge, and retain the existing bridge for rail/bus and bike/ped. Can the existing TZ take the weight of a train? A loaded truck is about 80,000 lbs; an F40 is about 280,000. But the bridge is made to withstand multiple trucks, while trains could cross one at a time. So it probably could. Given relatively infrequent use, a transit-only TZ could last a lot longer than in its current highway configuration, where it receives quite a pounding.
Imagine also if 2 highway lanes were retained on the old bridge for autos only (lightweight), and reversed in the peaks. The new bridge could be built smaller (by about a lane in each direction) and cheaper while some toll revenue would filter in to maintain the old bridge. Call it "congestion pricing"?
Trans husdon conventional commuter rail is probably not the beat way to go, at least as a new start. I think some medium-duty system (DMU or glorified light rail) is probably better. There's a better chance of jamming this type of system east along the 287 corridor, since its perceived as less obtrusive. Its probably still a good idea to maintain some Hoboken service for lower Manhattan folks who use the boats or PATH.
My thought here is that the TZ is still basically structually sound, though perhaps beyond its economic lifespan, and a mini-rehab would leave it OK for some rail and light highway traffic. Also that a train could make it up the grades of the existing span......Might be a challenge here!
Back at DCP, I'd always argued that a rail freight bridge up there was a lot cheaper and almost as good as the tunnel that will never be. You run two tracks across from the Port Jervis line, and ramp them down to the Hudson line (probably via a tunnel), you not only get a direct rail ride for Rockland and Orange commuters but also a 3rd freight railroad into Oak Point via the southern tier -- and a shorter turn around for freight from the south. Even if a one track freight tunnel is built, the bridge would be good. The tunnel could take trains in, the bridge could take trains out.
Meanwhile, I think expanding the bridge capacity and the capacity of the roads is a good idea. It would take more trucks out of the city, and across I287, from New Jersey to New England. In fact, it makes as much sense as twinnng the Goethals and expanding the Staten Island expressway. And would attract opposition for the same reasons.
Who has freight trackage rights over the Hudson Line-CSX or NS? If its NS, the MTA MIGHT not not have too hard of a time convincing them to help finance the deal also. Speaking of which, the rumors are starting to run around here (again) that NS wants to double track the Southern Tier line..... when MN opened the new Middletown station, they made the platform extra-extra wide--wide enough that it could be shaved back in case they double track......and they are going to be redoing all the PJ Line stations over the next 2 or 3 years...hmmmmm
CSX has the Hudson Line. It wanted East Hudson Access all to itself, but NYC and State fought to get trackage rights for the Delaware and Hudson, a (Canadian Pacific) subsidiary. Norfolk southern has the southern tier, but no access east of the Hudson.
Lets say a two track rail line is put in the middle of the new bridge. The State could try to use eminent domain to seize the Hudson Line S of Croton, and open it up to all three RRs. Then you'd have three services to the Bronx and Long Island.
You fail to recognize some basic facts of dynamic loading characteristics of rail vehicles- the axles and wheels on a rail vehicle are fewer and closer together, and the weight is much greater. This yields a much greater concentrated dynamic load. A tractor trailer has 18 or more wheels spread over a 60 foot or greater length, further, the "gage" of a semi is almost 8 feet.
The rule of thumb, is a rail bridge must be atleast 4-6 times stronger than any highway bridge.
The Tappan Zee would have to be heavily reinforced to take the live load of a modern freight train and locomotive.
I was living in Poughkeepsie at the time the bridge burned; indeed, I drove under the bridge northbound on Route 9 just before the police car behind me turned sideways to block the road and prevent other traffic from proceeding due to the fire above. I don't believe the rumors about it being deliberately set; rather, it was most likely a hotbox (the last train that crossed the bridge before the fire stopped with a burned axle bearing less than five miles down the line). It was unfortunate that the fire suppression system on the bridge had been allowed to deteriorate to the point where it didn't work. At the time the bridge went out of service there were plans to increase traffic on that line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting information about the Pok Br - Thanks. Runs contrary to popular opinion (but no one ever said porular opinion was necessarily correct!)
There's an interesting web site out there with more history, and links to additional information, here. I don't know the individual who set up the site but it's a good reference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse...got a 404 on that page...can ya put out the URL?
I just checked it and got a 404 also - I've had it bookmarked for a long time and when I checked it just now that's what I used - looks like it's moved or something. I'll follow up and let you know what I find out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tonight at 12;36 am I boarded a s.b.4@125th st no sooner had i been seated a s.b. 6 entered on the other platform as soon as it`d doors opened and passengers wanting to connect headed for our train the doors abruptly closed.they then opened a few inches presumably to release someones stuck hand and shut,several left on the platform were
visably angry at being stuck for what will at this hour be a long wait.
Look,I know that during peak time trains are on a tight schedule and with frequent service missing a train at those times is no big deal.
I can see no good reason for not keeping the doors open another 10to15 seconds at this time of the night.
As a life long subay and bus rider,i`ve seen this sort of thing several times in the past and I can`t help think it contributes to the public`s skeptical view of public transit.
This is a growing problem recenly, and theres another thread in here discussing it.
This is a growing problem recenly, and theres another thread in here discussing it.
Its been going on for decades. I used to run into that problem all the time in the seventies. On a weekend, I'd have to wait up to 20 minutes for a GG at Woodhaven Blvd. When my local would get to Roosevelt Ave., the E or F (mostly the F) that was in the station would close its doors before my GG was fully in the station. The doors on the GG would open just as the E or F would be leaving. At that point, I had a choice - wait for the next express (I usually needed an F) or go upstairs for the 7. If I just missed an F, I'd usually go for the 7. Sometimes that too would just be leaving by the time I'd get up to the 7 platform. Can't win for losing!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What would have been the point? Both trains run local at that hour. If they delayed the 4, the 6 would have left ahead of it, thus those same passengers would now curse the TA for making them late.
-Hank
On that ground, the 6 should have left ahead of the 4 anyway, as not , so Brooklyn bound passengers would not be stranded on a platform for 20 minutes.
I hope that the TA does not dispatch trains with this intent; i.e. I hope for the TAs sake that either of the trains were late or early. It seems that at that hour, dispatchers have enough leeway to think about timed transfers.
Also, I have heard that T/Os in NYC are instructed not to make connections during peak, but do not know if this is true.
As a conductor I would like to apologze to you for my colleague's unprofessional behavior. I try very hard to make connections and more so at night like what happened to you.
Also as a non driver I ride the system at all hours of the night myself. I see many other conductors do exactly as you decribed to me.
There's really no excuse for it, and the only way to describe why is sheer impatience. Since there is so much time in the time table it won't make you late.
The only time I'll do it is at the rush hour or if I know for sure there is an appropriate train behind me. But hey, to alot of people on this job it's just that. A job. We all can't be "Transit Professionals"
I can understand rush hour, but late night on 20 minute headways PLEASE hold those doors a few more seconds. Happens to me with the D/F along 6th Ave. I hate it when it is done on 3 consecutive stations 47/50th to 34th St, can make you screaming mad.
Mr R-46;Thank`s for your thoughtful commentts,It`s my hope that as this board becomes more widely read among transit workers it will cause them to consider their actions and their effect on public opinion of what is in fact the finest and safest mass transit system in the world.
I see your point and yes, the 4 was local at that time as every night,perhaps the connecting passengers were headed for Brooklyn.At any rate no pa announcement was made on our train `till we were underway.
I have seen this far too many times also and I AGREE it is behavior such as this, on the part of A MINORITY of conductors, that contributes to the publics skeptical view of mass transit. Conductors who behave like this are in the wrong line of work and perhaps if people reported this type of behavior to the TA whenever it happens it just might stop
Peace,
Andee
I haven't seen this happen in a long time. It's understandable in certain situations like peak hour, train running late or another train waiting to enter the station.
I think overall the C/R's do a good job of allowing passengers to make connections. However, during my college years I used to work evenings in Rego Park and for me to travel to the Bronx from work I'd take a G train to Roosevelt and change for an (E or F) express. Very often an express would pass us at Elmhurst Ave. We (the G train) would routinely arrive at Roosevelt Ave just in time to see the doors of the express close. I never understood why the express didn't wait for the local not to mention it was quite frustrating, especially since it was around 10:00 PM.
Wayne
I haven't seen this happen in a long time. It's understandable in certain situations like peak hour, train running late or another train waiting to enter the station.
I think overall the C/R's do a good job of allowing passengers to make connections. However, during my college years I used to work evenings in Rego Park and for me to travel to the Bronx from work I'd take a G train to Roosevelt and change for an (E or F) express. Very often an express would pass us at Elmhurst Ave. We (the G train) would routinely arrive at Roosevelt Ave just in time to see the doors of the express close. I never understood why the express didn't wait for the local not to mention it was quite frustrating, especially since it was around 10:00 PM.
Wayne
I lived near the Woodhaven Blvd. station for 13 years. The same has happened to me plenty of times - days, nights and weekends. My GG would get to Roosevelt and the doors would close on the F, just as the GG was entering the station. It seemed to be regular procedure. Like I said in a previous post, if the express was an F, which is what I needed, I'd go for the 7 at Roosevelt instead of waiting for another F. Fortunately, when I worked at WTC, I had a couple of options open. If the EE came in first, I'd take it all the way to Cortlandt St. If the GG came first, I'd get an E at Roosevelt.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Has anyone heard anything on the derailment at Croton Harmon North this morning??
The CSX/NS Bronx-Bound Which runs down the hudson line @2am nightly (usually late) had a derailment. The first box car slipped off. It looked like the train was about 60-70 cars long. It was being pulled by 3 conrail GE's specially modified to run on the hudson line. MNCRR was giving them a hand to get it back on the tracks. They had brought 3 more Conrail GE's down, but I thought conrail had only modified 3 total to run on that line. Any other ones would tear up the 3rd rail.
This was at about 7am. If anyone has heard anything, or seen anything, please post it.
Thanks
Fred
On the second weekend in February, TransiTALK is planning a photography field trip, detail are being ironed our as we speak.
This is your opportunity to meet the faces behind the page.
If interested, e-mail us at transitalk@yahoo.com or MTABoy2000@cs.com and you will be given deeper details.
Trevor Logan
Founder & Co-Webmaster
TransiTALK Platinum 2000
Gentlepeople .....
If you have already read the "Capsule History of the IND" on this site, GO BACK AND READ IT AGAIN! It isn't "capsule" anymore.
If you have not seen this before, then you're in for a real treat.
The second version of the Indepdent's History, called The History of the Independent Subway(1921 to 1940) And the IND Division (1940 to the Present) is now available for your reading pleasure.
What's new since the initial posting in August 1999:
- The document spans the life of the IND from 1921 to the present.
- New information on a proposed alternative to the Board of Transportation's initial route plan from a Major Philip Mathews
- A brief description of the Ashland Place Connection (while not a project of the Independent, Hylan's pontificating against the traction interests was the primary reason that it never got built)
- The section describing the 1929 IND "Second System" plan has been completely revised and, hopefully, described much more clearly
- Additional details on the going-on around the Independent's opening day
- Additional details of the Unification ceremonies in 1940
- A summary of the Board of Transportations 1939/1940 plans for the system
- A new section outlining the history of the IND Rockaway Line
- Additional details on the Chrystie Street Connection project and a short list of lines discontinued and new lines created (thanks to Larry RedbirdR33)
- A new section covering the IND Division from 1975 to 1999
- Two new sections listing a chronology of events of the Independent before Unification and the IND Division afterwards
Enjoy! Comments / corrections welcomed.
--Mark
That is an outstanding, effort, Mark. It adds enormously to the readily available history of the IND.
Congratulations!
Mark,
I wanted to print this out. In print preview, however, it shows all the text on the left hand side, in a long column. Total pages was 97!!
Is there an easier way to kprint this?
Joe C
If you're using netscape, go into Edit->Preferences->Advanced and make sure "Enable Style Sheets" is OFF. I'm not sure how to do this in Internet Explorer but I'm sure it's possible. The style sheet will affect the printing but make it look nicer on the screen.
-Dave
Thanks for the tip. Everything prints fine on I-exp. but when I use netscape on another computer I had the same problem
Joe
Eye had that same problem for the first time (I just got a PC upgrade, 486/33 to 486/66, incl. more current NetScape version). Your tip did the trick, thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
Eye had that same problem for the first time (I just got a PC upgrade, 486/33 to 486/66, incl. more current NetScape version). Your tip did the trick, thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
My first computer 4 years ago was a 486SX 66 MHz machine. Its obsolete. I couldn't use it anymore. Its slow and won't take a hard drive larger than 2 GB. I even feel like I need to replace this AMD K-6-2 350 MHz machine. Things are pretty bad when 128 MB RAM and a 10 GB hard drive isn't enough! BTW, I have an old 486 25 MHz laptop with 4 MB RAM that I can't even use for the Internet because it can't handle Netscape or IE, and today's graphics would take too long to load anyway. It runs Win 3.1 and is good for nothing except word processing and solitaire. I eventually want to use it to run Packet software for my Ham Radio.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wanted to print this out. In print preview, however, it shows all the text on the left hand side, in a long column. Total pages was 97!!
Is there an easier way to kprint this?
If you have Microsoft Word 97 or 2000, try this:
Go to the IND History web page. Hit control A, then hit control C. Then, open a blank Word file. Hit control V. When it copies and pastes to Word, save the file on your hard drive as IND History.doc, or something like that. In Word, you will wind up with 49 printable pages; still alot, but half of what you would have from the web. I am not going to waste my paper on it. I'll just read it straight from the Word file on my computer monitor.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I am not going to waste my paper on it.
Awww, but it's worth it. :)
In Word, you can specify that all you want are the odd pages, then you can put the paper back in upside down and specify that you want the even pages. It comes out with nicely double-sided.
--Mark
In Word, you can specify that all you want are the odd pages, then you can put the paper back in upside down and specify that you want the even pages. It comes out with nicely double-sided.
--Mark
I like that idea.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wonder if it's possible to make newspaper style booklets. Any of you have tips? Like with 11 x 17 paper?
It's terrific that we have a lot of dedicated people like you, Paul M and others posting all this stuff free of charge. I have learned a great deal about NYC trains over the past 150 years, and only because I stumbled on nycsubway.org a few months ago...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have learned a great deal about NYC trains over the past 150 years
WOW! You're aging really well! ;-)
>>>WOW! You're aging really well! ;-) <<<
I compliment you and what do I get?
Hijinks, that's what.
>>>WOW! You're aging really well! ;-) <<<
I compliment you and what do I get?
Hijinks, that's what.
Yeah, I byte the hand that feeds me.
(( Ouch! That was even worse ))
No respect, man ... no respect .... :)
--Mark
Rim shot!!!
Super job! One question concerning the Second System: there is no mention of the Lafayette Ave. extension which would have originated at Bedford-Nostrand Ave. on the G and tied into the Myrtle-Central Ave. line.
DAMN!!! YOU BEAT ME TO IT!
Free of charge???? Hey, where's my tip! ;-)
Another G-R-E-A-T job. This writer thanks you very much for the history lesson !
Mr t__:^)
I have created a webring for my site. To join the TrAnSiTiNfO webring, click the link below.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO's Webring
TrAnSiTiNfO's Homepage
AGAIN. I have added a webring to my site!!! 3 ppl have already joined in one day. If you would like to become apart of this webring, 1)you must have a webpage 2) it must be about transit.
If you're interested click Here.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO's homepage
I was on my weay home last night at about 8:30pm, and was waiting for an R at 36th St. On the express track, an "S" train of R62's(?)came through, with Broadway-local markings. However, on the computer-type-esque side signs, it read "W--to City Hall". Anyone ever seen this?
Definately NOT an R62, since they don't have digital signs. Probably an R46 set going in for a layup.
-Hank
I guess you're right, as it was headed for the West End to Coney Island.
Why do the lights in the R36 cars flicker in the tunnels? And if the R62s were to come would that problem be gone.
Also I found a way to use bigger cars on the 7. Take unneeded R40 Slants and rebuild them to IRT standards. I would use either MK or the locomotive shops in Altoona Pa. for this
Why do the lights in the R36 cars flicker in the tunnels? And if the R62s were to come would that problem be gone.
Also I found a way to use bigger cars on the 7. Take unneeded R40 Slants and rebuild them to IRT standards. I would use either MK or the locomotive shops in Altoona Pa. for this
In the past, all cars had lights that flickered. The lights go out when the cars go over a third rail gap. This usually occurs when going over a switch. The R-44's started using a back-up battery to keep the lights on while going over third rail gaps. All cars since have been built with this battery. Cars built prior to the R-44's received this modification during General Overhaul, except the Redbirds. I, myself am not sure if all the Redbirds lack this back-up battery, or if its only the WF R-33/36's, as I left the City close to 20 years ago. This battery holds enough voltage (I think its 35 or 38 Volts) to keep the car's lights on while the car's shoe is not making contact with the third rail. The A/C still momentarily quits, but the lights stay on. Even on the R-36's, there is still a small dim light connected to a battery that provides some auxiliary light when the main lights go dark. In answer to your question regarding the R-62's, yes it would solve the problem, as the R-62's are equipped with the back-up battery. As for modifying the R-40's to make them 1' narrower, I don't think its practical or feasible. Even if it was possible, I don't think 60' cars, even if they were 9' wide could run in the Steinway Tunnel, for the same reason that 75' cars are unable to negotiate a few turns on the B-Division.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Fluorescent lighting staying on over third rail gaps actually started with the R-42, not the R-44.
David
You lose the AC Fans though.
Most of the Redbirds that I've taken on the 2 and 5 don't have lights flickering. I think that's only in the Flushing Redbirds.
Today I was on a Flushing Redbird and the glass on the front window was a little loose and very few of the exterior signs worked.
I like the Redbirds but the Flushing ones are in pretty poor condition, much worse than the other IRT lines.
Yeah I remember the late eighties and Early Nineties, they were the top maintained cars in the entire fleet. I guess they are preparing for the R-62s, so they are cutting down on the extensive grooming of the 36s.
The flourescents in the R-36 are DC tubes operated from the 600 volt source. These were used in all cars at one time but as cars have been rebuilt AC flourescents operated from battery powered inverters have been substituted, also as orig equip from the R-42 onward. The battery powered lights monitor the third rail power and some switch themselves off after a lengthy loss of power leaving only a few on for safety sake. The Flushing cars retained the original lights to use up the stock of DC tubes on hand.
The flourescents in the R-36 are DC tubes operated from the 600 volt source. These were used in all cars at one time but as cars have been rebuilt AC flourescents operated from battery powered inverters have been substituted, also as orig equip from the R-42 onward. The battery powered lights monitor the third rail power and some switch themselves off after a lengthy loss of power leaving only a few on for safety sake. The Flushing cars retained the original lights to use up the stock of DC tubes on hand.
That's wierd - lights running off 600 VDC. Man, I'd hate to be the one in charge of changing a dead lightbulb on those cars! That seems more dangerous than operating a Hi-V. Then again, the higher the voltage, the lower the current, and it is actually current that kills, not voltage. The third rail? Now, that's another story. High voltage, high current. Zap!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
WILL THE F TRAIN EVER RUN EXPRESS AGAIN BETWEEN 179 ST AND 71 AND CONTINENTAL AVES IN QUEENS? WHERE WILL THE NEW LINE FROM 21 ST IN LIC TERMINATE IN QUEENS ?
It sometimes does now. About 7:15A.M. on some mornings they run an unannunced special express from 179th all the way to Queens Plaza. I say about 7:15, because I've gotton on it at Union Tpke between 7:25 and 7:30. I don't know if they do this every day, but I have seen it about 5 times in the last month.
About the new line, this has been going on here for month. It will feed into the Queens Blvd line between 36th St. and Queens Plaza. The connection is about complete and it may be opened within a year, possibly a little longer.
Don't expect to see service through the 63rd. St. connector for at least 2 years, even if construction ends before that. There aren't enough subway cars in the fleet to support the new service, so it might have to wait until the R143's start showing up.
I'm not holding by breath. LOL
I think that through service could begin even without New Cars. The Q is already running as far as Queensbridge, and the G is already running on the Queens line as far as Queens Plaza. Cut off the G, and connect the two, and voila you have through service.
It's not that simple, since there are more Q trains than G trains, and Q trains are longer. But the TA could free up cars in the short run by cutting the number of R trains on the Queens line slightly. It could also put a little pressure on Steve to have fewer trains in the shop during rush hours.
So the gain in through service could not be what it would be with more cars, but you might go from 9-10 Rs and no Gs. to 6-7 Rs and 9 Qs.
A usually reliable source (TA operations person) told me at a New York Division/ERA meeting a few months ago that while regular service won't begin on the 63rd Street connector until the new cars are delivered, reroutes will likely use it as necessary during General Orders and service disruptions, once construction is complete.
Why would you want to cut back on R service. Those trains are packed between Queens Plaza and Lexington Ave. I realize the Q only stops 3 blocks away at Lex., but the R has the transfer to the 4,6 & 6.
"Why would you want to cut back on R service. Those trains are packed between Queens Plaza and Lexington Ave. I realize the Q only stops 3 blocks away at Lex., but the R has the transfer to the 4,6 & 6."
Packed?????? No where as crowded as the N line which runs fewer trains during rush hours. Who knows how these "subway planners" got there jobs.
N Broadway Express
I've seen the N line, and it is crowded. But stop exaggerating. It's nowhere near the crowding on the E and F, the Brighton Line, or the East Side IRT.
Problem is that the Manhattan Bridge is scheduled to close the northern side and open the southern side within the next 2 years. The planned reroutes will require more cars than they have available today. The fleet has been downsized quite a bit since the last time this service plan was implemented (86-88), so new services might not be able to run until all the R143's are here.
Yet another reminder of why scrapping the R30 was foolish.
Yet another reminder of why scrapping the R30 was foolish.
Nobody in the TA has the foresight to see that extra cars would be needed, not too far down the road. They're stupid! That's an understatement. They knew what they were building. They didn't just start building it either. Its been going on for decades.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They have the extra cars, if they would just transfer over the extra Redbirds to the B division as the R-142s arrive, put platform extenders on them (the way they did on the Low Vs on the Culber shuttle and on the Q cars), and use them as rush hour put-ins on the Eastern Division. Then transfer over the usual extra rush hour cars from there to suppliment Queens Blvd. service, and you would have enough trains to start 63rd St. service.
Redbirds on the B division would look odd, and it would require a few more cases of bondo to be bought, but it would be a quick solution to the overcrowding problem without having to wait for the R-143 order to completely arrive.
(Put platform extenders on the eastern division).
Unless you mean the L, that would not be easy. You'd have to cut off through service on the Broad Street line, and terminate the M down there as well. L riders could be expected to complain, especially since they were promised the new trains. The G is another possibility, if you terminate them at Hoyt-Schmerhorn then run them non-stop to a turnaround at 4th Avenue. I doubt G riders would agree.
My thought (before the Franklin Avenue shuttle was built with little capacity for full trains) was to save a few trains by using the Redbirds as a Brighton local to Fulton Street, running all Brigton through trains express from Sheepshead Bay. Brigton riders didn't like it.
Returning to the Broadway Brooklyn Line, you'd have to replace the M on the West End with more B trains, and run them through the Montigue tunnel, since there is no room on half the bridge. But they'd have to run north for some way before they could turn around. That would eat up some of the savings.
I meant put the platform extenders on the cars themselves, to cut the gap between the Redbirds and the platforms. You could still run R-40/40M/42s on the J/L/M/Z but during rush hours instead of adding extra B division cars, you would put in the cars moved over from the A division.
During non-rush, only B division cars would be in use while those currently reserved for rush hour service on the J/L/M/Z would be moved over to serve as the needed cars for the 63rd St. connection.
I'm sure some Eastern Division riders would complain about getting IRT hand-me-downs, but if the R-143 delievery schedule is correct, this would only be an 18 month to two-year stopgap measure, and would allow the MTA to open up the new Queens connector for full-time service right away, instead of letting it go underused until 2002 or 2003.
Once the 143s were in place, the Redbirds could go off to that big scrapper in the sky. But it seems stupid to junk the trains within the next year when they could still serve a useful purpose in relieving the overcrowding on the system.
If redbirds ever show up on the J line, I'll sing a happy tune.
I remember seeing R30 Redbirds on the J years ago........
3TM
Yes, and I miss them. The bland, antiseptic R42's make for a boring ride.
Ah, you put the extenders on the trains, not the platforms, so both types of cars could run. I didn't think of that. But wouldn't there be a liability issue: passengers falling into the gap between the train and platform next to the doors? Sounds like a lawyer's dream, and a TA nightmare.
I must admit, however, that aside from the liability issue I like your idea. Yeah the Redbirds are rusting, but we wouldn't need all of them, and when one wore out we'd just throw it away. On that basis, the Redbirds could be run anywhere -- even as the new Queens Blvd local, from 71st Continental to Church, to avoid having riders elsewhere feel ripped off. You could put your best conductors on the line and, as you say, only use them during rush hours.
Would it be possible to weld a steel plate along the entire length of the car?
They can put the extenders along the entire car length.
I don't think IND rush hour riders would appreciate the narrow IRT style trains. That's what I like about BMT/IND, the trains don't get quite as packed and stuffy as IRT trains, you can fit more people in them.
Hmmm, maybe if the entire Canarsie line was converted to IRT dimensions.....
Nah, buying new cars woould cost fewer $$$. But I'll listen to any plan that would mean that the TA would retain the redbirds for any longer than they are scheduled for.
Like I said in the earlier post, this would only be an 18 month to two year stopgap measure, until the R-143s arrive and get the B division up to their needed number of cars. Saving the Redbirds for rush hour service would allow the MTA to move the current rush hour R-40s/40Ms/42s to be used on the 63rd St. connection when it's ready, instead of letting it go underused for a year or two while Queens Blvd. riders into Manhattan continue to be packed in like sardines.
Better to have slightly narrower cars on the BMT/IND during rush hour for a while than no cars at all. And we're not talking about doing anything here that the TA didn't do first back in the late 1950s on the BMT Southern Division.
I think you have something here. Better more cars than no cars at all.
[Like I said in the earlier post, this would only be an 18 month to two year stopgap measure, until the R-143s arrive and get the B division up to their needed number of cars. Saving the Redbirds for rush hour service would allow the MTA to move the current rush hour R-40s/40Ms/42s to be used on the 63rd St. connection when it's ready, instead of letting it go underused for a year or two while Queens Blvd. riders into Manhattan continue to be packed in like sardines.
Better to have slightly narrower cars on the BMT/IND during rush hour for a while than no cars at all. And we're not talking about doing anything here that the TA didn't do first back in the late 1950s on the BMT Southern Division.]
Clever!
I don't think that would be a problem. People don't try to get on trains where there are no doors.
Would it be possible to weld a steel plate along the entire length of the car?
That's exactly what they did with Lo-V's 40 years ago to adapt them for BMT use.
NYC TRANSIT
It seems that J Lee has a good idea here. All it would take is a piece of angle iron bolted on and painted black. Perhaps someone should send a letter to the MTA (you can't E-mail it).
I've looked into the technical aspects of running IRT Redbirds in BMT service. From a loading standpoint, you'd lose approximately 120 person-positions per train: 10 Redbirds hold 1,800 people, while 8 R-42 or R-42 cars hold 1,920 people (if memory serves, the IRT loading guideline is 180 people/car, while the BMT 60-footer loading guideline is 240 people/car). However, the M line isn't overcrowded at either end of the line (please don't yell at me on this; I'm going by numbers, not perception), so the M would be OK from that perspective.
Platform lengths don't seem to be much of a problem, either: 10 IRT Redbirds come to 513' and change, while 8 R-40/R-42 cars come to 484 feet. All Eastern Division platforms exceed 513', with the possible exception of Metropolitan Avenue: I have a 1982 document that lists the length as 506', but that may have been either the original (destroyed by fire) wood platform or its temporary wood replacement, before the current platform was installed.
The last problem I looked into was signal chaining. I was afraid that because 10 Redbirds are longer than 8 R-40/42s, a train of "Redbirds" might slop over onto a third signal block, thereby reducing capacity along the line. However, I've been assured that the insulated joints (IJs) are far enough apart throughout the Eastern Division that this wouldn't happen. Of course, the southern part of the M line is set up for 10-car 60-footers/8-car 75-footers, so this isn't a concern there. (Don't count CBTC on the Canarsie Line in this exercise; it's not there yet, and it depends on onboard equipment that the Redbirds wouldn't get to be effective.)
All that needs to be done to convert Redbirds for BMT use are to add extension plates and move the trip cocks from the right side to the left.
David
One thing I forgot:
There's an additional constraint: would the Redbirds be available in time to be of any use?
The R-142 and R-142A classes (for the IRT) are just starting to come in. In fact, only the pilot trains of each have come in. These trains will be extensively tested in the shops and on test tracks (such as on the Dyre Avenue Line) for six months (longer, if they have problems, which new equipment invariably does). Then they each have to pass a 30-day in-service test without failing EVEN ONCE. One failure, and the clock starts all over again. This puts us into mid-summer at the earliest.
Moreover, the plan is to increase service where possible by keeping 120 Redbirds. This means that the first 120 (or more, if spares aren't included in the 120) R-142 and R-142A cars won't replace anything. Redbirds wouldn't be available until at least 120 new cars are in and running. At a 30-car-per-month delivery rate from each contractor (sounds about right), that means that for the first two months (again, if everything goes right) of service by the new cars, Redbirds wouldn't be available. Now we're in late summer/early fall.
The M line needs 19 8-car BMT trains, which means it would need 19 10-car IRT trains, or 190 cars, plus spares (say, another 30 cars for a total of 220). That's about four months' worth of deliveries of the new cars. Now we're into Winter 2001. The 63rd Street Connector is supposed to open in Spring 2001. It would take some time to put the extenders on the Redbirds and change the trip cocks (though it could be done as Redbirds were released from IRT service). By that time, the R-143 (Canarsie Line) cars would be starting to arrive, we hope. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that the Redbirds would arrive in time to do much good.
David
Oh My God! You thought of everything. Wait you forgot the Manhattan Bridge deal.
That's right, with the Manhattan Bridge out, the TA will need more cars just to run the same service, with the B/D Concourse separate from the B/D Brigthon. Until the Manny B is open on both sides, the more cars the merrier.
It wouldn't hurt to run an extra train or two on other B division lines either.
I agree it all depends on the timing and the acceptance of the new R-142s before the opening of the 63rd St. tunnel.
My thinking was if what has been talked about in some other threads -- that some of the R-62s would be headed to the Flushing Line to replace the R-33WF/R-36WF cars, that those cars, which still have a very good MBDF, could then be sent down to Coney Island for retrofitting with extenders and be used for rush hour service on the Eastern Division.
Using the Flushing Redbirds would also allow the MTA the option of nine-car rush hour trains, which at 462 feet, would certainlu fall within the range of all platform lengths on the Eastern Division.
Of course, there's nothing this side of Joe Hoffman that would prevent some of the mainline R-26/R-28/R-29s, which figure to be the first `Birds to go -- to be sent to the Concourse or 207th St. yards to have their trip cocks converted and extenders put on, but it would limit the cars lengths to multiples of two.
Those SubTalkers inside the MTA would be a better judge than me both on how long any conversions would take, and on the current time frame for the R-142 to begin service, the 63rd St. tunnel to open and the R-143s to arrive. But I do think scrapping several hundred A division cars that still have at least 18 months worth of service in them (we're not talking R-16 GEs here) while the B division is several hundred cars short and way overcrowded during rush hour is not very good thinking.
If this is an eighteen month measure, using the R-33 single is BAD. That could mean up to 2 summers with those things. If neccessary, some double cars can be taken to create 10 car consists, if the last car doesn't fit, lock it away.
They DO have fans you know. Granted, not as good as the ceiling fans on the older equipment but fans nonetheless.
So? They don't have air conditioning.
As I said, with the possible exception of one station (Metropolitan Avenue on the M), station lengths are sufficient to handle 10-car IRT Redbird trains. Therefore, the R-33 single cars would not be needed. The key constraint here is timing. As I previously indicated, enough Redbirds to provide M service would not be available until around the time the R-143s are scheduled to start coming in. This is true no matter which Redbirds (R-26, 28, 29, 33, 33S, or 36) we're talking about, and no matter which line they're running on now.
With respect to the Manhattan Bridge (which someone said I forgot about in my calculations), the condition of the bridge is immaterial at this point. The bridge isn't planned to be open on both sides until 2003 at the earliest, by which time all 212 R-143s should be in and running. Since the R-143 is an addition to the BMT-IND fleet, and is not being purchased to replace any equipment, the Redbirds wouldn't be needed anywhere in the BMT-IND system. The R-143 will allow for the opening of the 63rd Street Connector as well as extension of C trains to 10 cars (yes, 10 cars). The cars currently assigned to L service will be moved around, and the R-143 fleet will take over L service in conjunction with installation of CBTC.
David
10 car trains on the C line are unnecessary. I don't think they'd waste cars for this.
On the 143s, are you assuming they'll come in on time as scheduled? Remember, we supposedly should have already been riding on the R-142s for the past six months, based on the MTA's original timetable. And with the added equipment the 143s will have to operate with the L's new signaling system, betting on them meeting the timetable there is not the best of odds.
As far as the rest of it goes, moving the Redbirds over would have to coincide with the R-142s going into service at about the same time the 63rd St. connection opens, since I doubt they would leave the `Birds sitting around taking up space if 63rd Street's opening comes eight months to a year after the new IRT cars enter service.
As far as the costs go (which was on another post), attatching an extender to the outside of the cars and changing over the shoes for the B division, along with new roll signs for the cars, would be the main expenses I can think of. The bean counters on Jay Street would have to decide whether or not doing that for an 18 month emergency measure is worth the cost, though I think the extra passengers they'll attract in Queens if the lines become less crowded earlier would make up for any conversion costs.
I'd be absolutley stunned if all the R143 cars were delivered and were running without incident by 2003.
I'd be absolutley stunned if all the R143 cars were delivered and were running without incident by 2003.
HE HE HE HE HE!!! Aren't the R-142's enough of a lesson? Ain't gonna happen!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
the REDBIRDS are going to be transfered to the flushing # 7 line i was told !!!
They are already there!
It's the R-62 that will be on the 7. Finally eliminating those stupid R-33 singles.
Here is a picture of one of the modified Low-V cars used on the BMT in the late 1950's. I'm sure the redbirds could be modified like this as well.
Adapting A-Division cars for B-Division use is the best idea that I've heard in a long time. They did this with Lo-V's on the BMT in the late 1950's as a solution to a car shortage, so its nothing new, just something forgotten.
NYC TRANSIT
01/08/2000
Re: adapting "A" division cars for "B" division service.
That idea worked back then because NYCTA managment had to be creative in solving a temporary problem (ex. SIRT cars on the BMT). This is a new regime at the helm (or controller) and I doubt seriously they would spend any money on cars that already have a death warrant on them.
Bill Newkirk
Why don't they have the 63rd Street connection feeding into Queens Plaza at an important connection point? It seems dumb to make riders go all the way to Roosevelt Avenue just to catch the E and the F.
That would require an even sharper S curve to connect with the Queensbridge tunnel than the N already has to link up with the 60th St. tunnel, plus there's little or no space to bring in two new tracks between the current local and express alignment. By coming in after Queens Plaza, the MTA was able to put in ramps between both tracks, giving local and express trains the option of using the 63rd St. tunnel. Although the tunnel will probably handle Queens Blvd. local trains, this gives the MTA the option of rerouting the F express through 63rd in and emergency situation.
On the map, these two train hubs don't look too far apart. Is it possible to dig a passenger tunnel from Queens Plaza that would connect to the el station? Would it be too long, making transferrers susceptible to muggings? You could have an E/F/R/N/7 transfer, and when they get the 63rd Street tunnel finished, a B/Q/E/F/N/R/7 junction.
The Astoria line crosses right over the Queens Blvd. 36th St IND station, and perhaps a transfer from this station to the 39th Ave. station on the N would be more feasible.
No it dosent. A few years ago, I had extensive delays and walked from 36th St. to the Astoria Line. The Astoria Line is about 5 blocks away from the western edge of the 36th Street Station.
The 63st tunnel will bypass Queens Plaza. Now, connecting Queensbridge to Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza...that'd be a feet. (pun intended)
-Hank
It always seemed to me that the 45 Rd/Court House Square station on the 7 line was just above the Court Square station on the G, and would be a logical place for a transfer.
-- Ed Sachs
This would benefit G riders when the G is cut back to Court Sq. 24/7. Otherwise, the E and F will get flooded at 23rd./Ely.
I think that's a wonderful idea. In order to get from the N to the R now, you have to go all the way to Lexington Avenue in Manhattan.
Not true. You can transfer from the R to the 7 at Roosevelt and take that to Queensboro Plaza for the N.
I have been extensively viewing pictures of old BMT and IRT cars and have come up with a wierd scenario----Correct me if I'm wrong. I noticed until the mid or late 60's many of the IRT cars were Low V's, without numbers or letters of any kind. The exception was the #7 Flushing to Times Square train. The BMT, on the other hand, had B and D types. The locals were B's, the expresses were D's, or Triplexes. Was this a hard and fast rule? The Sea Beach and Brighton Beach Expresses carried the number 4 and 1, while the 4th Ave Local, and the Brighton Local were numberless because of its design. Was this SOP, or did both these transit companies choose their cars by choice.
And what of the Independent Subway System? What cars were they? I do know the GG and F did carry letter designations, but they were the only Ind cars I ever rode. Was that true for the A, C, D, and E?
I can clear up some of your questions:
(1) IRT subway routes last ran Low V equipment in spring 1964 (3rd Ave. El in the Bronx used LowVs until the late 60's). Until 1964 #7 used R12, R14, and R15 equipment. Beginning about 1954, R-series equipment began appearing on the Lex and 7th Ave routes - R17, 22, 26, 29, and 33 cars, for example, replacing Low-Vs. The Woodlawn Jerome #4 line was the last major bastion of the the Low V cars. It did not get any new R type equipment until fall 1962. In the spring of 1964, the R12-14-15 series were shifted to the Lex and 7th Ave. routes to replace the last Low Vs, and allowed the new R36 cars to run on the #7 Line to the NY World's Fair.
(2) The original IND routes - A/AA, C/CC, D, E, F, GG, used R1 through 9 cars, built 1932-41. In 1948 came the R10s, which ran mostly on the A train until the 1967 Chrystie St. changeover.
I was more familiar with Manhattan, Bronx, and Queens routes in the 1950's and 1960's - rarely ventured to Brooklyn then - so I can't answer your question about BMT routes. There are lots of good knowledgeable subtalkers who can, I'm sure.
Fred the Brighton Local or Express was the 1 4th Ave 2, West End 3, Sea Beach 4 Culver 5. Prior to 1955 when the city got the new cars the only cars that were numbered were the Triplex and the Multis on the Eastern Division. The R-1 thr 9 and R 11 on 4th Ave Local also were numbered. If you remember the standards did not have a head sign to show numbers, I remember we used to tell the line from its marker lights Brighton Exp Green-Red, Brighton Local W-W or R-R depending on Term. West End G-W Sea Beach R-W etc. Also the same for the IRTs. Hope that this helped
The R-10's were mainly on the "A"'s well after the 1967 Chrystie St connection, at least into the early 70's.
The SARGE-my homepage
My Transit Buff Page
my OUTRAGEOUS COLOR QUIZ
The reason that the Lexington Ave. expresses (4 and 5 lines) were the last to get the new R-type cars to replace the Low-Vs is that these routes ran 10-car trains, and the platform lengths were designed for 10-car trains of Low-Vs, where the first door of the front car and the last door of the last car didn't open and were off the platform. Thus the platforms were really only a bit over 9 car lengths. Most of the station platforms needed to be lengthened before 10-car trains of R-types could operate on these lines.
-- Ed Sachs
The LV's could and did use the South Ferry inner loop and the new equipment can't.
If you're talking about the shuttle from Bowling Green there were post Low-V R-series cars on the South Ferry inner loop.
No, I was talking about LV Lex Ave Expresses. They did not require any special modification to use the inner loop like the R series that was used on the shuttle.
I don't thing that the Lexingon Ave. expresses ever used the inner loop. It was just used by the shuttle trains. When the expresses ran through to South Ferry, they used the outer loop.
-- Ed Sachs
They Lexington Ave Expresses did not use the South Ferry inner loop after the LV'S were gone. 10 car LV Expresses could and did use the inner loop.
Let me just clarify my earlier post a little more. The R1 through R10 IND stock all carried the original IND letter designations. All IRT cars, beginning with the R12s in 1947, carried number designations. The BMT/IND R16 cars (1953)carried number designations (initially ran on the #14/15 Jamaica El, today's J train. When the BMT standards and triplexes were replaced in the 1960s, the replacement cars (R27/30s, R32s) carried the post-1961 BMT letter designations that were developed prior to the Chrystie St. 1967 unification, and became official at the time of the IND/BMT marriage in 1967.
01/06/2000
Andy,
I believe the R-16's initially ran on the (A) line before sending them to the Eastern Division. In fact the ceremonial train at the ribbon cutting at Howard Beach or Broad Channel was signed up "SPECIAL", "WAVE CREST". I was told the 200 car order of R-16's were purchased for the Rockaway extension. Why they were sent to the Eastern Division is not clear to me. I have a B&W slide of R-16's at Rockaway Park, with the railfan window open too!
Bill Newkirk
I rode the R-16's on the A-line before they were moved to the Eastern division.
The first Wavecrest 'A' was run with R-16s because they were the newest cars in the system. They were already operating on the Eastern Division and one set was moved over for the ceremonial trip. (I was on it, for whatever that's worth.)
I don't recall any other R-16s being shipped to the IND for Rockaway service after the opening day. The R-10s running on the Eastern Division were sent back to 'A' service.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There are 2 photographs in the R10 section of this site that shows them operating on the Jamaica line in the mid 60's. So a few had to have remained (they also had BMT number signs).
There were some R-16's on the A line when new.I remember riding on them looking out the round window,and looking at the different fans from those of the R-10 cars. How long these cars stayed on the A-line,I don't know.Maybe someone on sub talk knows when all R-16's were sent to the BMT. Side note,also remember riding on the R-11 cars on the A-line.
To all you guys who cleared up the BMT-IRT differentiations, I thank you. It's amazing how much more I've learned since being of part of this august body. Have a great day.
Next stop on the Sea Beach is Fort Hamilton Parkway.
Does anyone know if Bill Russell's very good "Penny Bridge" (NYC area railroads) website is still online?
I tried just attempted clicking on it via my favorite places, but I get a "disconnected" message.
Any one with additional info is greatly appreciated.
Doug aka BMTman
I tried getting in and the server message said it was busy. I'll try again later. It's quite a resource, so I hope he hasn't given it up.
Thanks, Kevin. I'll try again myself, but this wasn't the first time I had a problem (similar situation occurred about a week ago).
Doug aka BMTman
If it's ever back up, could you post the URL?
http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/whatsnew.html
It's still down as of Thursday morning.
Kevin, I get 'Extend Failed' or more often 'Connection Refused'. I have a feeling his site is no longer up.
Too bad. I hope we'll see it again soon.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm pretty sure he runs this off his own office machine at NYU. It being winter break perhaps the power has been shut down or some other such nonsense. Maybe his machine just crashed while he was on vacation. I'm sure it'll be back up.
I can ping the server but I get a DNS error trying to get to even the base URL.
So maybe it's just a server problem.
Oh no! Did the Y2K bug actually get someoone?
I stumbled across this website which details the building of the line in the early 1930's. Check it out.
http://www.railroad.net/nyc/westside.html
Thanks. I linked the site to my pages on 11th Ave. steam engines and the abandoned west side elevated, on
www.forgotten-ny.com
Brochures entitled "Winter Weather Travel on MTA Railroads" were left on LIRR trains this evening. The cover photograph shows a couple of workers shoveling snow off a train station platform in the midst of a heavy snowstorm (probably the blizzard of January 1996). Anyway, I'm trying to figure out what station is shown in the photo. The station name is not quite visible, given the angle of the photo, although I believe it consists of a single word. Here are the clues to the photo's location:
1) It's a Metro-North Harlem or Hudson line station, as the underrunning third rail is visible.
2) There is an island platform with two tracks.
3) Old-looking metal power poles are running down one side of the tracks, still carrying wires (the snow on the wires is quite apparent).
4) Much of the platform is visible, judging by the light poles running down the middle. There is no canopy, just the light poles.
5) No crossover is seen, so this station must be one at which the crossover is located near one end of the platform.
6) The surrounding area seems rather rural. There is a good view of the land off one side of the tracks, and it appears to be fully wooded. Trees are visible on the other side as well. No buildings or other structures are apparent.
Any ideas what station this might be?
the answer is simple rip out the rail transit system we once had........... AND REPLACE IT WITH THE... ( automobile & bus )
LAST LAUGH IS ON US !!! ha ha ???
the three new rail lines dont take anywhere !!!!! ha!
What subway lines in particular do most of you find the rudest and dirtiest people on?
I think that it has to be the 7. I always get shoved on there and people spit all over the place. No wonder why the Flushing Redbirds are in such deplorable shape. It's also the smelliest.
Most of the other subway lines have polite passengers, and are faily clean. Only the 7 train seems to have problems with rude passengers and garbage. Perhaps this has to do with the state of Flushing today.
The F train is much dirtier than the 7. And rudeness prevails on the Lexington Ave line, because of the overcrowding.
It is my experience that ANY subway line will have rude and nasty passengers if the train is packed like a sardine can.
If the trains are not crowded you will not encounter rudeness. It's that simple. No one line has a monopoly on rudeness.
However, some lines ARE filthier than others. That has more to do with the supervision of the cleaning crews at terminal along the lines rather than any particular neighborhoods the trains go through.
I should point out of course that some of the longest lines in the system would naturally accumulate more garbage than others because the distance between terminals (clean ups) are much greater. So don't be surprised to see more trash on the A train (Rockaway Beach), the F, D, and #2 trains. Obviously, the time of day you are on the train makes a big difference too.
I gotta admit that nothing can surpass the amount of trash you'll encounter on the LIRR lines from the rush hour coffee/newspaper crowds.
Doug aka BMTman
Really? I've taken the F at rush hour lately and find the 7 train much worse when it comes to the litter and the people.
I really haven't found the Lexington line getting on my nerves at all, though the West Side IRT (1,2,3,9) is pretty bad with crowding.
The most jostling I've received was in the Beijing Subway. The air also reeked with garlic.
Till recently, I used to reverse commute on the LIRR Port Washington Branch. The seats would be full of empty paper sacks, discarded wrappers, and newspapers, and the floors would have empty soda bottles and spilled coffee, as well as the occasional food residue.
I can't speak about commuter lines in other cities, but in NYC and suburbs, they're resolute slobs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah I once took the PW branch on a weekend and it was packed and litter all over the place. Then again, knowing the LIRR the car might not have been cleaned since the workweek.
I don't blame the LIRR. During the rush hours, every car is in use, or most every car, and they have to turn around the 'equipment' after every run no matter what state it's in, garbage wise.
YEA!!!!!!! change the name to " T he PIG Line !!!!!!
Till recently, I used to reverse commute on the LIRR Port Washington Branch. The seats would be full of empty paper sacks, discarded wrappers, and newspapers, and the floors would have empty soda bottles and spilled coffee, as well as the occasional food residue.
I can't speak about commuter lines in other cities, but in NYC and suburbs, they're resolute slobs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah! And these are the people with the big bucks who look down on us poor folks. Especially the snobs from Port Washington. These people have their noses so far up in the air, I'm surprised that they don't get nosebleed from the altitude. There was a thread in the recent past about the "snobway". They have one. It runs between Port Washington and Penn Station. From what you say about litter on the trains, it looks like the snobway is now also the slobway. They ought to start calling the LIRR the Long Island Refuse Road.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, actually, if there were any justice, the PW branch would be the logical extension of the #7 and they should have converted it decades ago. The Baysiders and Great Neckers would move to Scarsdale if that happened...
Well before you start knocking the people in Nassau may I remind you that alot of people get on the Prt Washington Line in the city (Queens) probably more so than Nassau. Look at the rush hour crowds waiting at Little Neck, Douglaston, Bayside, Auburndale and Main Steet.
They're probably Yankee fans out to embarass the Mets by making their train look seedy. You Mets fans out there are going to have to be on your guard. You know how Yankees fans can be.
MUST YOU ALWAYS RESPOND WITH THE PREVIOUS POST REPRINTED. A 5 PARAGRAPH POST RE POSTED WITH YOUR TWO WORD RESPONSE IS ANNOYING. Besides, You can just click on "Posted by" to see the previous post
MUST YOU ALWAYS RESPOND WITH THE PREVIOUS POST REPRINTED. A 5 PARAGRAPH POST RE POSTED WITH YOUR TWO WORD RESPONSE IS ANNOYING. Besides, You can just click on "Posted by" to see the previous post
First off, don't shout. Its very impolite. Second:
I do that so people will know what I am respondinig to. I find it to be a pain to have to pull up a previous post to see what someone is responding to, and then have to go back again. It is extra work to copy and paste everytime I post, but I do it as a courtesy to those who wish to know what I am responding to, without pulling up a previous post. Since I put references from previous posts in italics, it shouldn't be a problem to scroll down to the non-italic text if it bothers you. Others use quotes or brackets for the same purpose. I use italics. I guess I can cut down on the real long-winded copy and pastes and just put in the key points of a long-winded previous post. You are a regular on this forum. What's with the "unknown"? You don't have to hide. BTW, your IP address matches someone else's on the forum except for the last group of digits. Like I said, you don't have to hide :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Okay I'm not hiding (but didn't post the other msg), could you quote at the bottom of your response?
That way I have less scrolling to get to the meat of the msg and if I don't know what the response is, I can scoll down to it.
Just an idea, thanks.
Come on guys, we're splitting hairs again.
Come on guys, we're splitting hairs again.
Thanks Fred. If anyone is so bothered by my posts, they can skip them. There are threads that I skip. There are also posts from certain people that I skip.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'd prefer not to see everything repeated in italics, because it duplicates the "in response to" text and I have no way to bypass seeing it all twice in trying to read back through a thread. Maybe someone has a suggestion on how I could avoid all the duplication.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well, as long as we're going on about useless stuff in posts, people keep putting the dates in their text, when the system records the time and date of the post, and is made part of the headers. But what absolutely bugs me is the inline graphics people add. Sometime I have to browse from a slow connection, and I have to wait for the image to load before I can finish reading the article. Then there are the users of blinking, flashing, moving HTML, and those who don't close their HTML so their large text winds up carrying down into the links and responses....
-Hank
The latter is annoying, but one can always disable the images.
Depends on whose computer you're using. In my case, not mine.
-Hank
Starting today, I have all but stopped pasting in previous posts and I stopped using my graphic signature. As for italic previous posts, it was extra work for me. I was doing it mostly as a courtesy to those reading my responses. It is less work for me if I don't have to put this stuff in, plus the extra HTML coding. I just keep my web site hyperlink on my clipboard and do one control V. I'm only going to include graphics to illustrate a point in the furure.
NYC TRANSIT
Why? Your previous posting method didn't bother me or most other people. Don't feel compelled to change because others whine.
Its less work, anyway. I got through a two-day backlog on SubTalk alot quicker this way. Anyway, I'll see what I'll do. Even if I keep up the barebones posts, I'll still stick some animatiions and multimedia in there.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I enjoy your animations and graphics. Let the envious ones eat cake! THEY CAN"T DO IT HAHAHAHO
I enjoy your animations and graphics. Let the envious ones eat cake! THEY CAN"T DO IT HAHAHAHO
Alright. You're the 3rd person to tell je this. Its back to business as usual.
:-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I can do it, but this issue came up before. Remeber when someone was posting using the train sign bullets? Everyone came down on hom for slowing down the system, making it harder to read the posts....
-Hank
Any computer that is that slow probably didn't make the Y2K rollover. A new BIOS chip is needed.
Any computer that is that slow probably didn't make the Y2K rollover. A new BIOS chip is needed.
I'm not going to worry about it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I can do it, but this issue came up before. Remember when someone was posting using the train sign bullets? Everyone came down on him for slowing down the system, making it harder to read the posts, waiting for several different graphics to load.
-Hank
I can do it, but this issue came up before. Remember when someone was posting using the train sign bullets? Everyone came down on him for slowing down the system, making it harder to read the posts, waiting for several different graphics to load.
-Hank
I was told by 3 people that they miss my graphics and animations.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Add me as number four. I didn't recognize you when I saw your first "barebones" post!
Game on!
:-)
Add me as number four. I didn't recognize you when I saw your first "barebones" post!
Game on!
:-)
Thanks!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you've seen the animation once, that's enough. It's nicely done, but every time? I've got a cable modem at home so speed isn't a problem, but when I visit my son with his 14.4K modem and only 16M of memory it's all I can do to read the regular ones. (No Y2K issue, it's a Mac.) When I'm there, yours I have to skip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you've seen the animation once, that's enough. It's nicely done, but every time? I've got a cable modem at home so speed isn't a problem, but when I visit my son with his 14.4K modem and only 16M of memory it's all I can do to read the regular ones. (No Y2K issue, it's a Mac.) When I'm there, yours I have to skip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It only has to load one time. Once its in the cache, it appears instantly. I would suggest a 56K modem and at least double the RAM, maybe even quadrouple it. Don't do it on account of me. Do it just to survive on today's Internet, that's chock full of graphics and multimedia. Noone has a 14.4K modem anymore, no less only 16 MB RAM. BTW, if you don't wish to take my advice, you can always disable graphics in the browser so that no graphics will load at all, speeding up things immensely.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm still going to use italics if I respond to a particular point in a message and not some others. This way the reader will know what I'm talking about.
And since italics are clear, there's no problem with people having to read something twice, with me, you'll know it's something I took from the next message upthread.
I'll use the italics when I feel I need to. Its a time-saver to forgo it when its not needed. You know, people will always find something to complain about. I was doing alot of copying and pasting mainly as a courtesy to the other readers, so they wouldn't have to pull up the previous post to see what I was responding to. Then came the complainers. I'm not on here to spite anybody. If I was, I'd copy and paste the entire IND History that Mark Feinman just did, which has the Gettysburg Address beat by a long shot!
NYC TRANSIT
If you ride in the front car of an uptown bound C or E train, you will notice a series of mysterious spray-painted words between the 23rd and 34th Street Stations. They simply say "REVSOUP" over and over again. I must find out what this means! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
This could have something to do with the mysterious individuals known as REVS and COST who were tagging everything in sight way back in the early 90s.
"Way back in the early 90s"???
Argghhhhhh....
Kevin, Are you the NYPD Sgt. in the vandal Squad. If so, E-mail me privately.
>>>Kevin, Are you the NYPD Sgt. in the vandal Squad. If so, E-mail me privately. <<<
Actually, I'm looking for work! They need anyone in the force? I'd love to assist in the elimination of graff/scratchiti.
Actually, I know who you mean but I haven't seen him in years. I knew A Kevin Walsh in the 73rd years ago and I knew he eventually made sergeant.
Kevin Walsh is a common name. The animal trainer at the NY Aquarium in Coney is named Kevin Walsh, and he shows up on TV every time they get a baby whale or something.
I have a cousin Kevin Walsh. We're all over.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In fact, a Kevin Walsh in CT registered kevinwalsh.com.
That's one site I gotta bookmark. After I sue him.
[ kevinwalsh.com ]
So far there's no there there. He just reserved the name.
You can see it on Internic Whois.
Then there's another Kevin Walsh who took kevinwalsh.net.
Youse guys are busy.
That's on almost every single pillar on the 8th Avenue line going all the way out to Brooklyn. Some people have nothing better to do. I've seen it in the Queens Boulevard tunnels too.
Wayne
Just finished reading the "Final 1999" issue of Cubic newsletter (the mfg of NYC farebox, turnstile & MVM machines). This issue has several articles about Smart Cards:
- Puerto Rico: The turnstiles in their new rail system will be "smart card ready"
- China, i.e. Guangzhou & Shanghai will use mag & smart cards
- Singapore: Incl. smart card vending machines
- Hong Kong: They call the card a "Tourist Octopus", seriously they do, it's used on the 7 stn airport line & comes pre-valued at $50
- Chicago: No new info. on their efforts
- Wash D.C.: They claim it's working well on the rails & will on the buses in the "future"
- Trivia 1: Smart cards use FRAM vs. RAM or DRAM memory, i.e. Ferroelectric RAM.
- Trivia 2: A standalone reader/validator has a "cave" that you put your smart card into vs. walking near a reader. Benifit, the reader angle is at 45 degrees to NOT radiate everyone who walks by.
London detail: 86 bus depots are included in Cubic system, the MVM machines are called ETM (Electronic Ticket Machine), just like the subway is the underground over there.
NYC news:
- 1,589 MVM (card sale) machines in the total order
- 1,005 MRM (refill) machines in the total order
- There's a photo of George Pataki being shown a Smart Card by a NYC Cubic salesman.
- 29 Depot Computers are installed in NYC bus depots
- 3,425 Cubic Turnstiles installed & 880 Readers
- 400 Iron Maidens will be installed, 222 so far
- JFK Express will accept MCs
- LIRR will accept MCs ... it's not clear what this means ...
"... (from subway & buses) and to the LIRR will feature MetroCard to provide seemless transfers."
- Restating the policy: "Tokens will be phased out and the railroad clerks, who have been selling tokens and MetroCards will be re-trained as Customer Service Representatives"
Copywrite Disclaimer: Don't see one, so I guess it's OK for me to lift text from their publication.
Mr t__:^)
===
Copywrite Disclaimer: Don't see one, so I guess it's OK for me to lift text from their publication.
===
A copyright notice doesn't need to by explicitly stated to be in effect. Unless stated otherwise all published material is copyrighted.
OK ... Kirk, I didn't know that ... thanks for the input.
(I usually mention the source & author & quote less then 400 words to avoid breaking the law)
Mr t__:^)
The SmarTrips won't be used on the buses until 2001 at the earliest without the normal delays WMATA has when implementing something. The equation to figure it out is to hard to put here. Often, it comes out to 1-2 years after they say it should happen.
By that time maybe they'll already be on the buses in Chicago & NYC.
Mr t__:^)
What JFK Express? Are they talking about the Port Authority project?
(or should I call it "The Train to the Plane II?)
That's the one ... let me lift more of the article:
"For the future, we envision expansion of the basic MetroCard system as other agencies within the metropolitan region enter the program. For example, the JFK Airport Access, which links to NYCT subway and bus services and to the LIRR will feature MetroCard ...."
Mr t__:^)
That's the title of a small Newday article by Michael Arena Wed.
Public Advocate Mark Green found this out in a month long survey he did. Only problem is that just 759 folks surveyed.
Anyhow it says these NYC folks think the 2nd Ave sTubway and N extention to La Guardia are more important then Grand Central/LIRR link. 130 of the 759 think the JFK Express is a good idea.
Mr t__:^)
Sure, like Long Island residents, City residents believe their improvements are more important (especially if the question is phrased a certain way). And they believe they are getting stiffed. And they are right.
But it's a question of fairness. It would be equally unfair to make major improvements in the city and NOT build the LIRR to GCT connection as the reverse.
A real question: "Which of these four do you favor?"
"Building both the 2nd Avenue Subway and more connections for the commuter railroads, even if it means somewhat higher fares and taxes or lower spending on other things?"
"Not building either the 2nd Avenue subway or more connections for the commuter railroads, so fares and taxes can be kept low?"
"Building the 2nd Avenue subway, but not doing anything to improve mass transit for the suburbs."
"Building connections for commuter railroads, but not doing anything to improve mass transit in the city?"
Unfortunately, up in the Vampire State they have #5 -- "do studies and get credit for mass transit improvments in the newspaper that never happen, while spending money on other things."
["Building both the 2nd Avenue Subway and more connections for the commuter railroads, even if it means somewhat higher fares and taxes or lower spending on other things?"]
I'll vote for this one. I think it goes without saying that the IND line connection to the 63rd tunnel will be finished. I would add some serious work for the N extention to La Guardia, i.e. more then just another study.
Commuter bus & rail ... LIRR connection to Grand Central would be number one on my list, but Dean Skelos & the other NY State politians will want to drain off a big chunk of the money for local (LI & upstate) cities. That's OK with me so long move forward with my top three.
Mr t__:^)
#6 - "Propose improvements and major capital spending, knowing that parochial local interests will hold them hostage in dog-in-the-manger politics,. We won't have to build the improvements BUT IT WON'T BE OUR FAULT."
[dog-in-the-manger politics]
Now that's a term I haven't heard before. What does it mean?
The fable of the dog in the manger goes something like this:
A dog and an ox are isolated in a manger by a snowstorm. The ox has plenty of hay to eat but the dog has nothing. The dog says, "well I can't eat hay, but I can prevent the ox from having it." So the dog bites and snaps to keep the ox from getting at the hay and both animals starve.
So a dog-in-the-manger attitude means to prevent someone from having something you have no use for, even if that preventing can't get you what you want.
While I have you folks on my knee for story time, I've heard this story attributed to Russia:
A peddler making his rounds through the countryside sees a farmyard in choas, with uprooted trees and damaged buildings. At the farm's fence, he is greeted by the farmer who is smiling and laughing.
"What happened to your farm, Yuri?" asks the peddler.
"Oh, I can't begin to tell you," answers the farmer, chuckling as he speaks. "Yesterday a terrible tornado ripped through my farm, destroying half my buildings and half my livestock."
"Why, that's horrible, exclaims the peddler. But why are you smiling and laughing?"
"Well," he laughs, hardly able to contain himself, "my neighbor Ivan lost all his buildings and all his livestock!
New York Politics 101.
(Dog and hay story)
In that story, the dog didn't have to pay taxes to give the ox his hay while starving to death. City residents pay for half of anything state-funded that happens anywhere else. That seems to be a good enough reason to say "what about me."
Note that in the state legislature, representatives from other areas demand compensation for allowing New York City to use ITS OWN LOCAL TAX DOLLARS to do something. NO ONE in NYC would object to the LIRR to GCT if Nassau and Suffolk Counties agreed to use their own local tax dollars to pay for it. New Yorkers would also celebrate if the commuter tax was instituted to pay for such improvments.
Paul, the argument always is that New York City gets too big a share of the tax dollars paid by New York City residents and businesses. Any money flowing the other way is welfare and waste. After a few decades of this (and the presence of more people with financially motivated "Republican" attitudes), people have hand enough.
Ah, there's the dog's side of the story.
The ox, of course, has neither needs, nor does he pay taxes.
My understanding of the issue goes something like this:
1) The MTA wants to build the LIRR to GCT connection, and spend money to "study" part of the Second Avenue subway and dig a few holes.
2) Silver does want to agree to BUILD the LIRR to GCT connection unless the MTA agrees to STUDY building the entire Second Avenue line.
3) The Republicans are unwilling to do anything about the Second Avenue subway; they want more money spent on roads.
You've said that people out in Nassau aren't against improvments in the city, but the representatives don't vote that way. People in the city might complain about improvements elsewhere, but the representatives don't vote THAT way.
It may seem churlish to demand tit for tat. I suspect that in exchange for tit now, New York City is unlikely to get tat later. Again, the idea is that city residents deserve NOTHING, like the dog.
If you re-read my posts in this thread, I did not characterize either side as the "dog" or the "ox." You chose to be the "dog."
I've presented specific information in the past as to taxation levels and city-state payments for different services. I can't continue to respond to generalities, and won't do so here.
You can find "facts" where you want them. The source of funding for LIRR-GCT has not been identified, yet you insist City people will pay for it. You compare the building of the ENTIRE Second Avenue subway with the GCT connection, but the more appropriate comparison is between the GCT connection and the 63rd Street tunnel connection. Each is to provide increased capacity for existing lines--neither represents a new line in itself.
As to the feelings of people in Nassau County, I don't live there and won't characterize their opinions. Still, if you know of a Nassau politician who has threatened to hold up the Second Avenue subway, or the Archer Avenue subway, or the rebuilding of the Franklin Shuttle, or the 63rd Street connection to the IND Queens Line, or more than funding for thousands of new buses and subway cars UNLESS the LIRR-GCT connection, kindly quote one for me.
For that matter, if you know of any suburban politician who has threatened to cancel the MetroCard discounts, or "one city one fare" unless the confiscatory LIRR and MNRR fares are lowered, quote that for me, too.
[For that matter, if you know of any suburban politician who has threatened to cancel the MetroCard discounts, or "one city one fare" unless the confiscatory LIRR and MNRR fares are lowered, quote that for me, too.]
I'm pleased to see your comment about LIRR and MNRR fares. Most of the debate focuses on the higher subsidy levels of commuter rail fares as compared to subway and bus fares. Yet the fact remains that commuter rail fares, heavily subsidized as they may be, are high enough to be a real financial burden on many commuters. I may earn a decent if not spectacular salary, but the $214 I pay each month for my LIRR ticket takes a significant bite out of my budget. Knowing that there's a big subsidy is small consolation. In comparison, if I lived in the city I'd get unlimited subway and bus travel for less than one-third the amount. Even with lower subsidies, that's a terrific bargain.
(LIRR and MetroNorth riders, fares and subsidy)
There was someone in my office just the other day, collecting data on the relative subsidies of the commuter railroads and the NYCTA.
Paul would be please to know that I pointed out that he had to include the source and uses of the MTA's dedicated tax revenues in any calculation of subsidies -- suburban tax payments are spread over fewer riders. And that he should consider who it is that is being subsidized more heavily, LIRR riders or employees?
Somehow there doesn't see the push to improve productivity on the commuter railroads. You have to ask yourself -- is there ANY way these railroads can collect fares for less money than they do with all those lucky/nasty conductors? I'd even consider the SIRT solution -- turnstiles at the terminals, with a fee to get on OR off the train, and no fare control elsewhere: free service within Long Island. Or the "good faith" system with spot checks and heavy fines.
Thank you, Larry. I do read and evaluate your posts, and I'm glad to see you do the same for mine.
If I can make a bottom line comment: unlike some regional agencies, whose role may be coordination, oversight, etc., the MTA's major role appears to be political.
The representatives of the City, State, localities, etc., meet in Albany to hash out who gets what in painful detail. Then (speaking for the transportation side here) the MTA is given its marching orders: they don't merely distribute "x" dollars for this or "y" dollars for that, they tell the agencies what are politically aceeptable or unacceptable ways to run their businesses. In the case of the LIRR, they have been told, "you make no fare changes without prior approval."
So the LIRR sits on a pot of money: it receives the 1/4% sales tax from Nassau & Suffolk, it receives station payments from the localities, it receives mandated funds and State payments. What does it do with all this? It can't lower fares. It can't increase service. It doesn't have to share its subsidy with a bus system. So it buys labor peace.
And I'm not dumping on the LIRR personnel. Even though it's a job I wouldn't mind having, being an engineer or conductor on the LIRR is no piece of cake. But here are many built in expenses and inefficencies that a committed management could negotiate our of existence, if it had any incentive to do so.
The posturings you see by local politicians are "street theater," window dressing to amuse the groundlings and get reelection or higher office. All these politicians know the deal has already been done in Albany.
But there is a bigger bottom line. Excuse me for shouting but: THERE IS NO FREE MARKET IN NEW YORK AREA TRANSPORTATION. When one makes the argument that city or suburban riders are subsidized to "x" extent of the fare, you are assuming that the full cost of the fare is a reasonable and logical amount.
To put it another way: the round trip fare from Penn to Babylon in $181/month. That is the cheapest ticket. If you believe that the "farebox recovery" is a meaningful figure, and that figure is about 50 cents, then you need to accept that $362/month is what that ticket should cost. That is a half year of MetroCards.
If the LIRR were a private business, do you think people would pay that $362 a month? And subway fare on top of it? Or would they look for other alternatives?
If you're still with me, I'll make a supermarket analogy. The government decides that everyone needs subsidized bread. The free market price of bread is $1.29 for a pound loaf, but the government sets the price of bread at even dollar. I'd say the subsidy is then 29 cents per loaf. But wait, the government demands that a government-paid official hand out each loaf to the recipient. They mandate that a bread consultant be present in each supermarket to answer consumer's questions about how to use and store the bread. It has a large accounting department and analysts to find out who is getting the bread and that it is distributed fairly. Of course the bread czar needs a staff. At the farm, the government demands that the wheat destined for bread be housed in different facilities from other wheat, and places inspectors to make sure this is done. It also pays the farmers and supermarkets generously for growing the bread wheat and providing space for storing and selling the bread.
Now at the end of the year, the taxpayers want to know why they are paying so much in taxes for the subsidized bread. The bread czar says, "What? We've totalled up the full cost of bread production and it is $8.75 a loaf. Every time you buy a dollar loaf of bread you're receiving a $7.75 subsidy. You're really ungrateful."
Paul, you're right about this, and the more I think about the more I like the ideas of vouchers, privatization, and deunification IN GENERAL. If the community decides there is something people should have, regardless of their personal income, it should give them the income to buy it themselves. Then they have the power, and providers of services ahve to please them. Sellers of food have to try to please food stamp recipients, poor though they may be. The LIRR doesn't have to please its riders. It has to please the politicians. Same with all those social service providers getting the Democratic dollar here in the city.
Getting back to the equivalence of the LIRR to GCT and the 63rd St tunnel, I think the 63rd St connection is almost the equivalent to the portion of the LIRR to GCT that is already being built, the connection on the Queens side. Equivalent in cost.
Which brings me back to something I thought of before. Why doesn't the LIRR install a couple of platforms and a way to turn the trains under the 21st Street station RIGHT NOW, as an interim measure? From what I read (on this site), one reason there is crowding on the Queens line is that everyone packs on the express, leaving room even on the one through local, so the Feds are skeptical about the ability of a second local to solve the problem. That means two locals are bound to have some room at 21st Street, and there is plenty of room to run more trains on the Queens local track.
The LIRR would have another place to terminate trains and turn them around. Riders could walk up stairs and ride two stops into Manhattan. They'd have to get out at 63rd St and walk down -- a long way from GCT but not so far from the zillions of jobs north of 48th St.
As I said, I'm most interested in what can be funded right now. My great fear is that Sheldon Silver will be a "hero" for having the MTA study the whole Second Avenue subway for $700 million, rather than study the upper part and dig a few holes. I understand that not even the full LIRR to GCT connection is funded in this plan, although most if it is. Better to get the money now before someone else does.
Paul, you're right about this, and the more I think about the more I like the ideas of vouchers, privatization, and deunification IN GENERAL.
I believe that Unification was a mistake. I also wouldn't be averse to putting together arguments and discussions as to whether/how some kind of privitization could be accomplished.
However, I don't currently see how, given history and current poltical currents, any truly competitive private operators could be convinced to enter the field. To put it another way, I think I'd rather be asked to separate a layer cake into core components, or be assigned to assemble a living cow from parts purchased on W.14th St.
[...] The LIRR doesn't have to please its riders. It has to please the politicians. [...]
And ultimately, the TA does, too. Can you suggest how to retrain management to fear the rider rather than the politician, when its the politician who would be ordering them to please the public?
Which brings me back to something I thought of before. Why doesn't the LIRR install a couple of platforms and a way to turn the trains under the 21st Street station RIGHT NOW, as an interim measure?
Um... How about because there's no LIRR line running from the existing LIRR to 21st Street?
The complete 63rd Street TA line from 6th and 7th Avenues to the IND Queens Line will probably see service this year. The LIRR line exists only as a soggy lower level in the 63rd Street tunnel.
As I said, I'm most interested in what can be funded right now. My great fear is that Sheldon Silver will be a "hero" for having the MTA study the whole Second Avenue subway for $700 million, rather than study the upper part and dig a few holes. I understand that not even the full LIRR to GCT connection is funded in this plan, although most if it is. Better to get the money now before someone else does.
Gee, we see that the same, too! If this keeps up I'll have to borrow some meds from Heypaul!
I'm very much in favor of pushing the TA 100% to build the piece of 2nd Avenue they offering RIGHT NOW! I think it's the one best hope to see something on 2nd Avenue actually run in my lifetime.
(No secret LIRR tunnel to 21st street)
I've asked about this, and its there. (Incredibly) the MTA has been thinking ahead and building the LIRR connection on the Queens side at the same time as the subway connection, so they won't have to restage the job again. I had been concerned that, in typical fashion, one year after 63rd St opened they'd have to shut it down to work underneath.
They're only doing the part under the subway. So the LIRR tunnel is under Northern Blvd, across a couple of lots from the Sunnyside Yard to the south. The MTA would have to start the LIRR to GCT project by building that piece of the tunnel, along with the temporary platforms and switches on the Queens side, before starting the Manhattan side.
It can be done. It's certainly what the BMT would have done, rather than wait for everything to be finished. The LIRR would have more capacity the moment 63rd St opened.
BTW -- that's why the "stubway" needs to be done at the same time as the LIRR to GCT. They'll have the ground open at the interchange between the 2nd Avenue and 63rd St lines. If they don't build the interchange then, they won't be able to do it later without screwing everything up. I'm told that's what the MTA wants to do.
That's why we should get a stubway at least to 72nd St.
To be honest I've been riding on the LIRR for off & on over 40 years and I don't remember any real nasty conductor.
(Nasty conductors -- haven't seen em)
Must have come out on the weekends, when I used to ride. As I recall, the LIRR doesn't clean the cars on the weekends either. Those were some miserable rides.
[re nasty LIRR conductors]
LIRR conductors sometimes come off as nasty when they're simply being businesslike. What I suspect to be the case is that some riders equate conductors with airline flight attendants, who are usually perky and friendly. In comparison to that sort of demeanor, a conductor's all-business attitude can come off as rude when that really isn't the case.
LIRR conductors sometimes come off as nasty when they're simply being businesslike. What I suspect to be the case is that some riders equate conductors with airline flight attendants, who are usually perky and friendly.
That's still no reason for the conductor to threaten me with his ticket punch when I asked if he'd freshen my drink and bring me some seasoned almonds.
"You have to ask yourself -- is there ANY way these railroads can collect fares for less money than they do with all those lucky/nasty conductors? "
To be honest I've been riding on the LIRR for off & on over 40 years and I don't remember any real nasty conductor. Most of them are very professional.
To be honest I've been riding on the LIRR for off & on over 40 years and I don't remember any real nasty conductor. Most of them are very professional.
Actually, that's pretty much my experience--but, if you think about it, people tend to ride the same train every day (with even rush hour trains spaced 20-30 minutes apart that's no big surprise). Someone pointed out that people even tend to the same car and same seats, if they can get them.
So conductors know that if they're nasty to someone, they're likely to see that same someone day after day after day. Can make for a pretty tense job situation.
I do recall, in the waning days of the Pennsy and PC nefore Amtrak, some of the long distance conductors (and a lot of the other RR personnel who met the public) could be pretty bad. I once asked a conductor "Why aren't some of the personnel more pleasant. Don't they want to keep the passenger trains (and their jobs) going?"
His answer: "The passenger personnel are mostly seniority men. The passenger trains will probably go under anyway, and I'll have my pick of the best freight runs."
(See the same people every day)
So maybe that explains my observations: I only rode the LIRR on weekends, back before we had a car. Maybe they're nicer and more professional during the week.
I think it's time I wrote my State Senator about this. Maybe if a few of the others here did the same it might have some effect.
Mr t__:^)
[It may seem churlish to demand tit for tat. I suspect that in exchange for tit now, New York City is unlikely to get tat later. Again, the idea is that city residents deserve NOTHING, like the dog.]
That's not so bad. Who wants tat, I'd rather take the ... oh, never mind.
Seriously, though, this whole LIRR-vs.-Second Avenue debate boils down to one of the City's and metropolitan area's most critical problems, namely the almost complete absence of regional thinking. City residents and suburban residents seem incapable of even the most basic sorts of cooperation that everyone takes for granted in most parts of the country. Something is completely amiss when the City will offer a corporation millions in "incentives" if the corporation threatens to relocate two miles to Jersey City. People have got to start thinking in regional terms and stop this childish competition.
[That's not so bad. Who wants tat, I'd rather take the ... oh, never mind.
Seriously, though, this whole LIRR-vs.-Second Avenue debate boils down to one of the City's and metropolitan area's most critical problems, namely the almost complete absence of regional thinking. City residents and suburban residents seem incapable of even the most basic sorts of cooperation that everyone takes for granted in most parts of the country. Something is completely amiss when the City will offer a corporation millions in "incentives" if the corporation threatens to relocate two miles to Jersey City. People have got to start thinking in regional terms and stop this childish competition.]
Amen to that--we're just shooting ourselves in the hooves. It's time for people to start saying "us us us" instead of "me me me."
Just for once, I'd like to meet a politician who says "hey, let's sit down and do what's fair" rather than fighting over scraps. I mean, just how much income do those muncipally subsidized stadiums bring into a City anyway? Enough to pay for themselves? I didn't think so.
[The fable of the dog in the manger goes something like this:
A dog and an ox are isolated in a manger by a snowstorm. The ox has plenty of hay to eat but the dog has nothing. The dog says, "well I can't eat hay, but I can prevent the ox from having it." So the dog bites and snaps to keep the ox from getting at the hay and both animals starve.]
To make this really like New York politics, the farmer (aka Uncle Sam) would wait until both animals are dead, and then use the hay (aka federal money) to feed other animals in the Sunbelt.
[To make this really like New York politics, the farmer (aka Uncle Sam) would wait until both animals are dead, and then use the hay (aka federal money) to feed other animals in the Sunbelt.]
Except that New York would offer twice as much feed as the Sunbelt to any starving animal that cared to move here, and offer to take the feed away from any middle class animals that cared to move here to pay for it.
Number 1 is the most reasonable.
However, number 3 is not totally out of the question. Not to knock the suburbs, but it should be remembered that Long Islanders use LIRR & NYCT primarily Mon-Fri during and during rush hours and rarely on weekends (with the exception of Shea Stadium & MSG events). Building new or extended lines for the subway should have presidence over other projects since city dwellers use mass transit 24-7 (work as well as leisure transportation). You will not find a large amount of city residents using LIRR or MetroNorth on a regular basis.
It might sound a bit bias toward the cities, but it is within the city limits that the vast majority of subway riders reside.
Doug aka BMTman
What a can of worms! The enternal city/suburb fight. What I don't see anyone discussing is who benefits, and how many. How many passengers will likely use either project? It makes sense for city taxpayers to pay for city transit, until you realize how few people actually work right at GCT and all those suburbanites hop on the subway.
On the other hand, it doesn't help the city to have employers move out to the suburbs where their employees live.
Too bad we have to depend on politicians to manage our lives!
(Never trust anyone who actually wants to run for office)
Bill
[What a can of worms! The enternal city/suburb fight. What I don't see anyone discussing is who benefits, and how many. How many passengers will likely use either project? It makes sense for city taxpayers to pay for city transit, until you realize how few people actually work right at GCT and all those suburbanites hop on the subway.
On the other hand, it doesn't help the city to have employers move out to the suburbs where their employees live.]
It seems to me that the City does have two advantages to offer suburbanites--its cultural richness, and lower commute times. But if the City wants to attract those suburbanites, it will have to offer school vouchers, improved transportation, and other services that will make it more competitive with the suburbs. Otherwise, for the City to survive, it has to make transportation from the suburbs easy, because local businesses need that highly skilled labor pool.
The same Newsday article finds that Queens folks don't think the Second Avenue subway is very important.
"The monthlong survey of 759 citywide completed in November found that 27 percent of riders in Queens want the N train extended to LaGuardia from its current destination of Ditmars Avenue in Astoria. Another 17 percent say they favor a one-seat ride from midtown to Kennedy Airport.
"Only 18 percent in Queens favored a Second Avenue subway that would stretch from the Bronx to Brooklyn. Another 7 percent said they would support a shorter Manhattan-only version of the plan."
The whole article boils down to: people support what they think they'll use, could care less about what they won't.
What a surprise.
(People support what they could use.)
If only people paid for what they used, then they would have a more realistic view of whether or not to support it, and wouldn't have to worry about being taken by someone else. Throwing all this money in the MTA/Vampire state pot and fighting over it just leads to discord, and a total lack of emphasis on getting what you pay for.
The more the money is separated, the better off we would all be. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middlemen in Albany. The only people who would be worse off are the middlemen.
And how exactly do you propose to distinguish "yours" from "ours" when you're dealing not only with the reality of free movement across municipal and state boundaries but with capital improvements that are DESIGNED to move people across boundaries? Commuter rail IS used by some city residents, and the subways are clearly used by suburbanites who come to the city (on commuter rail) to work. One of the rationales for federal and state funding of local transportation is that people from the rest of the state and nation use those "local" transportation facilities and it would be unfair to have the portion of costs not covered by the farebox fall entirely upon the local residents through local taxes. Unless you forbid suburban residents to use city transit and regional transit systems refuse city residents as passengers, there IS no "yours" and "ours" when it comes to transit.
More puzzling is how commuter rail and regional buses would be handled if you were granted your wish to "cut out" the MTA and state "middlemen." Of course, the City of New York or a City authority could operate city transit, but would each city, town, and village, regardless of its relative population and tax base, be responsible for maintaining and operating the portion of LIRR or Metro-North that ran through it? Some sort of regional agency, above the municipal and even county level, is needed to operate regional transportation systems (even if it were just an "alliance" or "association" of municipalities pooling their resources to operate regional transit). And once you're talking super-municipal, that's either the state or some authority created by the state, with the authority to impose and collect taxes or at least **compel** member municipalities and counties to pony up their share of funding.
In theory the TA, LIRR and Metro North ARE fiscally independent, but certain funding sources move among them. That's why the city does a little better at the MTA than, say, the Port Authority.
Let's just say we haven't done so well on the state tax dollar portion lately, and what we have gotten is the discounted fares Paul referred to. The Transit Authority receives ZERO New York State capital funding, just operating funding. I could almost accept the reverse. I'd rather have a higher fare, and a better system.
(For its part, the city has also drastically cut its funding for transit.)
One thing is for sure: I wouldn't could on any improvement which is not fully funded and built in THIS capital plan. By the end of it, the MTA will be so deep in debt that there may not be another one for some time. I'm not keen to have the entire 2nd Avenue subway "studied." I'd be content if the entire "stubway," the entire LIRR connection, and the N to LaGuardia were funded now, and built in the next recession.
But that's not what we'll get.
[More puzzling is how commuter rail and regional buses would be handled if you were granted your wish to "cut out" the MTA and state "middlemen." Of course, the City of New York or a City authority could operate city transit, but would each city, town, and village, regardless of its relative population and tax base, be responsible for maintaining and operating the portion of LIRR or Metro-North that ran through it?]
Something of that sort already occurs with respect to the commuter lines. Many if not most station parking lots are owned by the municipalites in which they are located, rather than by the MTA. It should come as no surprise that access to each such lot is almost always restricted to municipality residents. People who live in municipalities without stations, or in unincorporated areas, are [deleted] out of luck.
Paul, John, Larry & Peter ... another thing I like about this site is thoughtful debates like this ... thanks guys for sharing with the rest of us.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks, Mr t__:^).
Except for the occasional obvious troll, even (maybe especially)provocative posts add to the discussion and help all of us form our ideas and add to our knowledge.
It seems to me that, in the last half-year at least, discussions here and even in nyc.transit are getting more knowledgeable and focused as people express their points of view and history and politics are examined and chewed over.
Does anyone else think so?
I'm happy to exchange views on this site, and am always learning something new. For example, after some of your posts, I looked it up and in 1997 the state didn't provide any capital money for the LIRR either. So I guess that's equally fair, or unfair.
I enjoy the considered give-and-take that we have on this board. My wife, on the other hand, wishes I didn't find it so interesting!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I enjoy the considered give-and-take that we have on this board. My wife, on the other hand, wishes I didn't find it so interesting!
My wife says I spend too much time on the Internet altogether, whether I'm working, posting on SubTalk, reading the news, surfing, playing chess, or whatever. So what if I'm online 12-16 hours a day!
NYC TRANSIT
[It seems to me that, in the last half-year at least, discussions here and even in nyc.transit are getting more knowledgeable and focused as people express their points of view and history and politics are
examined and chewed over.]
I agree completely as far as SubTalk is concerned, and sort of, in the case of nyc.transit.
[And how exactly do you propose to distinguish "yours" from "ours" when you're dealing not only with the reality of free movement across municipal and state boundaries but with capital improvements that are DESIGNED to move people across boundaries? Commuter rail IS used by some city residents, and the subways are clearly used by suburbanites who come to the city (on commuter rail) to work. One of the rationales for federal and state funding of local transportation is that people from the rest of the state and nation use those "local" transportation facilities and it would be unfair to have the portion of costs not covered by the farebox fall entirely upon the local residents through local taxes. Unless you forbid suburban residents to use city transit and regional transit systems refuse city residents as passengers, there IS no "yours" and "ours" when it comes to transit.]
Seems to me the simple solution is to have people pay for what they use, rather than offer a heavily subsidized and ultimately uneconomical service. That would inevitably result in some reallocation of costs, and a concommitant reallocation of property values, with property closer to the City center gaining value and property in less dense areas losing it, but the net result would be the most efficient allocation of resources.
That raises some other problems, such as parity between automobile transit, in which the roads are built and maintained by the government, with mass transit. Since the highway subsidies aren't about to go away, have the mass transit ROW built, maintained, and policed out of the same pool.
Seems to me the simple solution is to have people pay for what they use, rather than offer a heavily subsidized and ultimately uneconomical service. That would inevitably result in some reallocation of costs, and a concommitant reallocation of property values, with property closer to the City center gaining value and property in less dense areas losing it, but the net result would be the most efficient allocation of resources.
Fare zoning is a concept that is totally alien to New York City. It will never be accepted by the people, and hopefully will NEVER be implemented. How would you like to have your cable bill metered. The more you watch TV, the higher your cable bill will be. How would you like to pay by the hour for Internet access like it was a few years ago? Don't give the TA any "bright" ideas. You and alot of other people will be sorry. This is not Washington, DC or London.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Fare zoning is a concept that is totally alien to New York City. It will never be accepted by the people, and hopefully will NEVER be implemented. How would you like to have your cable bill metered. The more you watch TV, the higher your cable bill will be. How would you like to pay by the hour for Internet access like it was a few years ago? Don't give the TA any "bright" ideas. You and alot of other people will be sorry. This is not Washington, DC or London.]
Well, I won't, because I live in Manhattan--LOL.
But frankly I don't see a problem with it. It works fine for cabs. And the only way to make efficient use of a resource is to let people know what they're paying for it.
[Fare zoning is a concept that is totally alien to New York City. It will never be accepted by the people, and hopefully will NEVER be implemented. How would you like to have your cable bill metered. The more you watch TV, the higher your cable bill will be. How would you like to pay by the hour for Internet access like it was a few years ago? Don't give the TA any "bright" ideas. You and alot of other people will be sorry. This is not Washington, DC or London.]
Well, I won't, because I live in Manhattan--LOL.
But frankly I don't see a problem with it. It works fine for cabs. And the only way to make efficient use of a resource is to let people know what they're paying for it.
If you feel that way, quit using the subway and start using cabs for everything. Living in Manhattan, I'm sure you can afford it. You think that zoned fares are so great because you have a short trip in Manhattan. With zoned fares, you probably think that you could roll back the fare to 50¢ for yourself, while people in the outer portions of Queens and Brooklyn would be paying $3. That's a very selfish attitude. You care about nobody but yourself. Remember, what goes around comes around. Hey, let me tell you something. I live 1300 miles from NY. It wouldn't affect me in the least, but I care about my fellow man. I care if they all of a sudden have to pay double or triple to get around town. I hope your cable company in Manhattan does start charging you by the hour. It would give you a taste of what zoned fares are like. You certainly would be singing a different tune if you lived in Coney Island, or out in Little Neck. I've been reading some of the wierdest things on this BB lately - closing rapid transit lines and replacing them with buses and now zoned fares. Some of you guys must be smoking those funny little cigarettes!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Due to the number of eligible voters in Manhattan vesus those in the outer boroughs, there is no way a zoned system will be put in directly by any politician. Only if they could come up with some "Blue Ribbon Panel" similar to the one Congress created to deal with base closings -- where the panel's decisions could not be challenged by the politicians -- would it have any possibility of becoming reality.
Moral -- Beware of Blue Ribbon Panels.
We have zoned fares. The subway is one zone, and the commuter rail system is several. It doesn't cost the system more to move people longer distances, unless you can open up yards further in, and that costs money.
If we are going to vary the fare, it should be by time of day, not the station you get on, with higher peak hour fares. And that one is actually feasible, since it would work without an exit swipe.
Moreover, the way the city is evolving, the poor are living further out, not closer in -- the reverse of 50 years ago -- so zoned fares are unfair to the poor. But the working poor are more likely to have jobs that start or end in off peak hours, so peak hour pricing is not as unfair.
[If we are going to vary the fare, it should be by time of day, not the station you get on, with higher peak hour fares. And that one is actually feasible, since it would work without an exit swipe.]
True, to a point - what about trips that begin in one time period (off-peak or peak), but end in another? You'd see a lot of those because of the lengthy trips common in the subway and bus system. Let's say that evening peak runs from 4 to 7. John enters the subway at 3:55 and rides for an hour. Most of his trip will have been during the peak period, yet he'll pay an off-peak fare. Mary enters at 6:55 and also rides for an hour. She'll pay peak fare for a largely off-peak ride. Obviously, this isn't an end-of-the-world type situation, it already happens on the commuter lines. But it's something to be considered.
(Peak hour pricing -- when is peak hour?)
I would have peak hour vary according to the time of day one enters the station, and have it vary in each station according to the time a train leaving that station would be scheduled to cross 34th Street or 5th Avenue.
Therefore, boarding a train at 7:00 in Manhattan might be considered "off peak", since most riders would not have gotten there yet, but would be considered "on-peak" at Brighton Beach because you would arrive in Manhattan at a time when the trains were full. Boarding a train at Brighton Beach at 9:15 might also be considered "off-peak," because by the time you got to Manhattan the trains would be empty, but 9:15 in Manhattan is on-peak.
At all stations beyond the Hub, 125th Street, Queensboro and Downtown Brooklyn, there is no "on-peak" in the afternoon -- since the capacity into Manhattan at that time is enormous, and largely empty.
[If you feel that way, quit using the subway and start using cabs for everything. Living in Manhattan, I'm sure you can afford it. You think that zoned fares are so great because you have a short trip in Manhattan. With zoned fares, you probably think that you could roll back the fare to 50¢ for yourself, while people in the outer portions of Queens and Brooklyn would be paying $3. That's a very selfish attitude. You care about nobody but yourself. Remember, what goes around comes around. Hey, let me tell you something. I live 1300 miles from NY. It wouldn't affect me in the least, but I care about my fellow man. I care if they all of a sudden have to pay double or triple to get around town. I hope your cable company in Manhattan does start charging you by the hour. It would give you a taste of what zoned fares are like. You certainly would be singing a different tune if you lived in Coney Island, or out in Little Neck. I've been reading some of the wierdest things on this BB lately - closing rapid transit lines and replacing them with buses and now zoned fares.]
No comment.
You know,its always the few [those innovative thinkers with there new wave ideas]that always start new trends.FIRST fare zones, next fare by the mile![with the 50 cent surcharge for night service].WHAT will these great minds come up with next? OH,I got one ! $3.50 rental space on station platforms[3 sqare ft personal space]PLUS zoned fares per mile! Hows that for innovation?
You know,its always the few [those innovative thinkers with there new wave ideas]that always start new trends.FIRST fare zones, next fare by the mile![with the 50 cent surcharge for night service].WHAT will these great minds come up with next? OH,I got one ! $3.50 rental space on station platforms[3 sqare ft personal space]PLUS zoned fares per mile! Hows that for innovation?
Yes, and I don't know how many times I read on this BB that the TA monitors it and gets ideas. Some of these SubTalkers don't seem to realize this. New York City has one of the highest cost of living in the country, outside of parts of Claifornia. I already checked out 1 bedroom apartments in Queens. They average $800-$1000 per month. Comparable apartments in the Philadelphia area average $550 per month. In the Detroit area, a comparable apartment goes for $450-$500 per month. People in NYC pay high rents, high taxes, high tolls, a high subway and bus fare. You don't need zoned fares. Its just an underhanded rotten way of raising the fare and giving you the shaft. I don't know how anyone could promote such madness, even if they wind up benefiting by it. Where is their sense of community, of cosmopolitanism?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Boston's MBTA has redesigned its Web site.
But their subway map still doesn't show the Old Colony commuter rail line that goes through Braintree! (sigh)
"Graffitti returning slowly"?!?!? HELLO!!!
In case no one has noticed it never left. Just because they give it a cutesy pie name like "scratchiti" so they can say that their rolling stock is Graffitti free doesn't change the fact that it is still graffitti and the trains still look like shit because of it!
Peace,
Andee
Gents, Ladies
Operation of the last crew worked trains (motor(wo)man + conductor)
is now down to just 4 (four) trains during the Morning commute
and four trains during the evening commute.The system is fast being cleared of surplus 1959/1962 type tube stock to breakers yards and
storage lots.
Although no official date has been set Crew operation is scheduled to end in late January/Very Early February and no railfan tours have yet
been announced. More when it is known.......
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Operation of the last crew worked trains (motor(wo)man + conductor)
is now down to just 4 (four) trains during the Morning commute
and four trains during the evening commute.The system is fast being cleared of surplus 1959/1962 type tube stock to breakers yards and
storage lots.
Although no official date has been set Crew operation is scheduled to end in late January/Very Early February and no railfan tours have yet
been announced. More when it is known.......
Do I understand correctly that 2-person 'Crew' operation is being replaced with 1-person ATO?
Actually the only remaining two-person operation is that on the Northern line, and that only during peak periods when the 59/62 tube stock still sees some service (4 trains total). All the other lines converted to OPTO some time ago.
Don't forget the snazzy new uniforms that the London Underground workers will be wearing. Sportcoats and ties, no less.
Hello,Its my first time posting on this board.Has anyone here ever rode the #1 line after midnight.It is the most plesurable ride i have ever had.For the past 2 years there have been nothing but delays and i love to see all the rats when they discharge all passengers at 137st.The smell of urine is a delight to inhale and there are so many plaincloths police that i never see any.I find it hard to believ that with all this money the M.T.A. has i am still dealing with this.20-30 minute delays every night.If you do the math i am sitting in delays for 3 days a year.Wow did i right all of that.I must really be pissed off.
Over the last couple of days, I've had occasion to ride up and down Brooklyn's 4th Avenue line at rush hour, as far down as 59th Street, on both the local and the express. Given the overall ridership boom, I was surprised to find the cars one-third empty at the height of rush hour. It is quite a contrast with the Brighton, which is PACKED, and the A/C/F and IRT, which are heavily used.
This sets up a dillema for the MTA. The number of trains per hour at rush hour is already low on the West End, 4th Avenue, and Sea Beach lines, so you don't want to cut it more. But thanks to our favorite cracking bridge and due to car shortages, you can't run more trains on the Brighton without cutting service on the 4th Avenue. For example, you could put the M back on the Brighton, but that would leave just 7 trains per hour at rush hour on the West End.
Perhaps if they do get the additional cars, they can use an F express to pull riders off the Brighton.
B trains, however, are packed at rush hour. N, R and M trains are comfortably full. My experience with the Fourth Avenue trains is that they don't go anywhere I want to go. others seem to agree with me since at Pacific Street there is a mass exodus to the IRT lines. After that station, the only thing to look forward to is the screeching crawl through those twisting tunnels. What I would love to see would be a 4th Avenue local-6th Avenue train.
(B trains packed, others comfortably full)
That wasn't my experience. Perhaps it was just an unusually low ridership day, but the B was far from packed, and there were just a few standees on the other lines.
At DeKalb, more people got off and packed onto the already packed Brighton.
Isn't the R train also called the 4th Avenue local?
[Isn't the R train also called the 4th Avenue local?]
Yes.
Thanks Pete. After reading that other message I was getting a little confused. I have to keep on top of things since I'm 3,000 miles away.
If that is the case, then maybe they should run the B as a 4th Avenue Express with the N during rush hour only, and leave the rest of 4th Avenue local to the M and R.
As for the Brighton, it seems strange that the local goes farther than the express. It seems more normal, as in Queens Blvd, or the A and C lines, that for a terminus outside the city limits, the local should terminate before the express. So that would mean that the D would terminate at Brighton Beach, and the Q would terminate at Coney Island.
They used to do it like that, but then you would have to cross the D local over the Q express tracks to get from the Coney Island-bound side back to the Manhattan-bound side. This way, the Q can terminate at Brighton Beach and use the crossover there to change directions, while the D continues to CI and crosses over there without interfering with the Q.
They used to have the same problem at Kings Highway on the F when the rush hour expresses ran to CI and some of the locals terminated there. No Brooklyn express service at all on the F solved that problem.
(Terminate local closer than express)
True, but running both trains so far out costs the TA some cars, which are mostly empty. In a less defeatist era, when public works could be built quickly for a reasonable cost, one might have proposed to ramp the local tracks down south of Kings Highway, to install a grade separate crossover. That way, the express could cover the outermost eight stops (bypassing Newkirk and Church) while the local covered the innermost seven stops before the lines merged.
That's the way the IND was built. You could have F locals and expresses without the crossover problem, as long as the locals turned at Church.
[ They used to do it like that ... ]
Only very briefly in 1967-68. Both before and after that, the Brighton line expresses terminated at Brighton Beach and the locals ran through to Coney Island. The only exceptions to this were the "sunny summer weekend" Franklin Ave. trains which ran express to Coney Island, and the Bankers Specials, which starting in the late 1950s ran via the local tracks from Coney Island to Kings Highway, then express the rest of the way (and reverse in the evening).
-- Ed Sachs
Why not run both express and local all the way to Stillwell?
NYC TRANSIT
Too much traffic going into/out of Stillwell Ave.
so reduce the time that Brighton trains are in the terminal to keep the flow moving. We're just talking about the 2 Brighton tracks, nothing else. All the other lines go through to Stillwell. Why not the Brighton Express? Having the local go to Stillwell, while the Express terminates at Brighton Beach is not exactly serving the riding public very well. It forces people to take a local a few stations and switch for an express. That is like running the G to 179th St. and the F to Continental Ave.
NYC TRANSIT
I do think it would be better for the express trains to go all the way to Stillwell Ave. However, the way it's designed, it's really not possible. The only way I could think of this happening is some sort of flying junction constructed between Brighton Beach and Seepshead Bay, allowing locals and express to switch tracks without crossing at grade. But is it really necessary? What's the big deal with x-ferring at Sheepshead Bay between express & local?
What's the big deal with x-ferring at Sheepshead Bay between express & local?
The wait, if you just miss the express. BTW, why Sheepshead Bay? Wouldn't it be easier if there was a Q on the NB track sitting there at Brighton Beach?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
True, until you realize that the train on the southbound track was the next train scheduled to leave and your left sitting there, watching it leave. At Sheepshead Bay, you're guaranteed that the next express will be on the proper track.
As stated before you can reduce time at Stillwell on the D/Q, by having a Operator and conductor standing by to board the trains as they come in to the Station. Give maybe 2 minutes to clear the train, the new crew leaves the station. You will not really need any switching problem at Brighton Beach. Remember as the trains go East from West 8th, the Express can go on to the Express Track and the Local to the Local Track. so nothing would be lost. I have seen turn around time at Stillwell on the F at less then 90 seconds. Why can t it be done on the Brighton.
You need 2 pockets for the Q at Brighton, you need 2 pockets for the D at Stillwell. Your proposal is for "in & out" at Stillwell doesn't work! Trains need layover time. If a train comes in late, it will most likely leave late as well since you are giving it virtually no layover time! With your proposal with the D on one track and the Q on the other, the dispatcher can't go "in & out" if a there is a b/o train or if it needs special attention by the car inspector for example. Now you have back to back D's or Q's with an cancelled train, and a probable backup waiting to get into the terminal. Also, the cars need to stay at their terminals a while so they can be swept & mopped. Finally, there would be congestion due to layups & putins. It has been done this way for a long, long, time. I'm sure the schedulemakers have considered this. In order to have efficient operations, all lines need 2 track terminals. The lines that don't (B at 145 & Bedford Park for example) perform poorly since there is short layover time. A 5 minute + late arrival = a late departing train. Anytime you see done what you see done on the F: it happens on everyline with a late arrival: late arrival, hopefully leave on schedule.
The trouble with the Brighton line can't really be fixed with improved Culver Service and can't be fixed with improved D/Q train movements. The problem is obvious once you look at the subway map (even though not to scale): The area east of the Brighton (below, say Ave. H, towards Canarsie) has no nearby subway service, as does the area west (towards MacDonald Ave.) The bulk of Brighton ridership has to be coming from that area (the distance between the D/Q and F is only about 15 short blocks, and even the F south of Church Ave. has nearby lines - B, N, as well as the D/Q which is why F ridership south of Church is probably not high).
You can see from the map that the two IRT lines also border that unserved area, which is one reason why they also have high ridership. The only way to really solve the problem is for the IRT Nostrand line to be extended, and the IRT Utica Ave. line built, as proposed for a bond issue in the 1950's, as I recollect (was it for $500 million of 1950's dollars?). The bond issue passed (it also called for improved BMT service) and the only thing I recollect happening was the BMT DeKalb Ave. track reconstruction on both sides of the station. The IRT improvements were never made (where did the rest of the money go?)
I'm sure new housing and more people living in the area, since then, added yet more riders from that underserved area to the D/Q and IRT lines. Those unbuilt 1950's improvements would have dramatically reduced or eliminated D/Q overcrowding, and improved transit access in that unserved area. With the Franklin Ave. junction also rebuilt, to better handle train movements there, the problem would be have been satisfactorily solved, I think.
Considering the people who would have gained even only by an improved Franklin Ave. junction, it's a shame that money was spent on the rebuilding of the Franklin Ave. shuttle. To those say it was needed, I ask: what's the ridership? Bus service would suffice (it only handles two-car trains anyway). IRT/BMT transfers could be made at Atlantic Ave. Regarding IND/BMT transfers, a corridor connection in downtown Brooklyn, where lines cross each other, would have been much cheaper, I think (and even if there were none built, subway lines in lower Manhattan are close to each other so access to buildings would only be a short walk away from any of them, and there are transfer points already in mid-town and upper Manhattan.
What's really needed are the improvements that should have been built back in the 1950's. The best way to resolve the problem? Pressure the politicians to pay attention to this need, as was done re: the Franklin shuttle. There are many more voters in the area that would benefit from these improvements.
Mike Rothenberg
Considering the people who would have gained even only by an improved Franklin Ave. junction, it's a shame that money was spent on the rebuilding of the Franklin Ave. shuttle. To those say it was needed, I ask: what's the ridership? Bus service would suffice (it only handles two-car trains anyway).
Anytime you talk about replacing rapid transit service with bus service, you're giving the TA the inroads to cut further or totally eliminate service. To say that it is unwise is a gross understatement. So many people on this forum seem to be advocating closing rapid transit lines with bus replacement. That is a huge step backwards. There are cities that provide only bus service that wish they had a rapid transit system. Here, we have one, and so many people on this forum are bus-happy.
BIG MISTAKE!
If you bus-happy people don't like rapid transit, go to a city where there is only bus service. You will change your tune real fast. I was born and raised in New York City. I live in the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale area. I depend on my car 100%. Bus service is the absoulte worst. It is near impossible to get around without a car here. during the day, off rush hour, buses run every hour. Routes are sparse and don't cover much area. Be thankful for your transit system and don't complain about a 20 minute wait when you miss a train.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Rogers Avenue Interlocking serves a lot more people than the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. The money would be better spent there. It would also cost a lot less money to build a more convenient, moving walkway between the Atlantic Avenue complex and Lafayette Street. The Shuttle should have been allowed to rot in it's pre-reconstructory position. Some people here even cry for the destruction of some canopies and stairways, so why waste money replacing them on an otherwise useless line?
Also, abandoning also costs money. It would make more sense to do a brief patch-up of the shuttle so it's in no risk of collapsing anf then letting it be.
The Shuttle should have been allowed to rot in it's pre-reconstructory position. Some people here even cry for the destruction of some canopies and stairways, so why waste money replacing them on an otherwise useless line?
I've heard this from other SubTalkers - that the TA received alot of community pressure to keep the Shuttle. Hey, I don't know about you, but I'm glad they kept it. I think NYC has lost enough of its rapid transit to politics. Everybody should try to preserve whatever is left, no matter how insignificant a line may seem. Once its gone, its gone for good and can't be brought back. With the Manny B problems, don't be surprised if the Franklin Shuttle becomes a very important link, down the road.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Getting back to the lack of subway service to East Flatbush, Marine Park, Flatlands, etc., obviously that is not something we are likely to see unless a LOT of things change and a LOT of other things happen first. However....
The current plan is to hook up to the IRT. But the IRT is pretty crowded as it is, and doesn't seem to have room for more trains. With better signals and a better turn around, however, the 14th St-Eastern Line does have room for more trains.
Maybe if the Utica Ave line is ever built, it should be extended up through the ghost connection to the A at Fulton, with a connection to the 3/4 at Eastern Parkway, up Broadway and Bushwick, and into the 14th St -- Eastern line in the vicinity of Bushwick Terminal (Montrose Ave). That way, you get more trains on the inner part of the L, and you might get some Midtown destined passengers off the IRT/BMT/IND thorugh Downtown.
Jamming more people onto the already crowded L line isn't gonna work. What about building a subway under Flatlands ave from Kings Plaza north to the Rockaway Blvd. terminal on the L?
The soil under flatlands ave is too wet and soft
So was the soil under the English Channel, but the Chunnel was built. I don't see why it cannot be done.
Not only does Flatlands Avenue not go anywhere near Kings Plaza, it's Rockaway PARKWAY.
The Chunnel was bored through chalklike material, which is relatively firm.
Most of south eastern Brooklyn (usually any place south of Kings Highway) is composed of swampy marshlands that were landfilled 50-60 years ago. The soil would be unsuitable for subway tunneling. An 'el' structure would be the only alternative, and to be honest, the homeowners in the areas the line would be running (down Flatlands Ave., I presume) would not want the noise and lowering of property values that an elevated structure would likely bring.
BTW, Flatlands Ave. begins at Flatbush Ave. near Kings Highway -- almost 2 miles north of Kings Plaza.
Doug aka BMTman
BTW, Flatlands Ave. begins at Flatbush Ave. near Kings Highway -- almost 2 miles north of Kings Plaza.
It starts at East 34th Street about 2 blocks from Kings Highway; Ave N makes a 45 degree turn to the left and becomes Flatlands Ave. I used to live at Flatlands Ave & East 35th St.
--Mark
OOOPs! Thanks for the refinement there, Mark.
Doug aka BMTman
Cut and cover will work.
There'd have to be some serious fortifying of the cut to make it withstand the muck of the geology over there (landfill over swamps).
I would hazard a guess that any stations that were built along a Flatlands subway route would have seepage problems.
Doug aka BMTman
Many current subway lines also have seepage problems. What was that whole Lenox Line reconstruction all about?
I'm glad the shuttle still exists. But too much money was spent on it. And it would be of much use should the Manny Bridge close completely, becuase of the single track and short trains. If the money was going to get spent, the shuttle should have been 2 tracks it's entire route and the platforms built MUCH longer. At least then the expenditure could be explained as an investment in case the bridge collapses and the x-fer at Fulton St. is needed....badly.
I'm glad the shuttle still exists. But too much money was spent on it. And it would be of much use should the Manny Bridge close completely, becuase of the single track and short trains. If the money was going to get spent, the shuttle should have been 2 tracks it's entire route and the platforms built MUCH longer. At least then the expenditure could be explained as an investment in case the bridge collapses and the x-fer at Fulton St. is needed....badly.
If the Manny B is ever deemed unusable for trains altogether, what do you want to bet you will quickly see 2 tracks and lengthened platforms on the Shuttle. Practicality would then dictate thru Franklin-Brighton service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There was once a proposal, in 1940, where the original BMT Brighton Line along Franklin Ave would have been extended to Lafayette Avenue to form a connection with the IND’s Crosstown Line.
--Mark
Yes, a spectacular connection between two worthless trains that don't go into Manhattan. Gotta wonder what the IND planners were smoking when they came up with that one.
THANK YOU, BMTLines!
And apparently Mr. Rothenberg does not realize that the New Franklin Avenue Shuttle was actually IMPROVED with the rebuilding because there is now a convenient transfer to the IRT Franklin Ave. station via the walkway at Botanic Garden platform. The New Franklin Ave. Shuttle ties together all three original "divisions" BMT, IRT, and IND. I think it was worth rebuilding. My only disappointment with the line is that not much of the original structure (north of Eastern Parkway) was kept.
Again, thanks for speaking for so many of us here, BMTLines!
Doug aka BMTman
The only mistake was making it a single track. If the equipment
goes out of service you're out of luck.
THANK YOU, BMTLines!
And apparently Mr. Rothenberg does not realize that the New Franklin Avenue Shuttle was actually IMPROVED with the rebuilding because there is now a convenient transfer to the IRT Franklin Ave. station via the walkway at Botanic Garden platform. The New Franklin Ave. Shuttle ties together all three original "divisions" BMT, IRT, and IND. I think it was worth rebuilding. My only disappointment with the line is that not much of the original structure (north of Eastern Parkway) was kept.
Again, thanks for speaking for so many of us here, BMTLines!
Doug aka BMTman
You're quite welcome Doug aka BMTman. I may have left the city but the city hasn't left me. I may live 1300 miles away, but I still consider myself a New Yorker. I am a hard-core railfan and a staunch advocate of mass transit. It broils me everytime I read somebody's post about wanting to close a rapid transit line and replace it with buses. hasn't anyone learned from the Myrtle Ave. and Third Ave. Els? I'll bet alot of people along the Myrtle Ave. El praised the TA for demolishing the "antiquated" structure and getting rid of the "antiquated rattletraps" (the Q's). After all, a nice modern bus with A/C! In the seventies, most buses ran with the windows open. The A/C didn't work. Typically, the buses were full of garbage and roach-infested. I'll bet it didn't take long for those people who praised the end of El service to look back in retrospect, sorry, wishing they had their El back. It really stinks when you had a train line and its gone. Now you have to take a bus to the subway. Like I said, abandoning rapid transit lines is a BIG MISTAKE! Its stupid, idiotic, asinine, dumb, dumb, dumb! Dumb-dee-dumb-dumb! Maybe some people who post here are too young to look back on the abandonment of Third and Myrtle and see how "great" bus replacement of rapid transit is. Remember, once its gone, its gone! All this talk about a Second Ave. Subway? As Ralph Kramden used to say - Har-dee Har-Harr! Har-dee Har-Harr! Once its gone, its gone.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Any advantage the new shuttle brings is negated by the moronic way the rehab was done. The single track and short stations means it would be useless as a conduit for Brighton line passangers to transfer to other trains should the bridge collapse/rust/get blown up/etc. It should have either been done right, or closed permanently. The makeshift layout of today's shuttle was the worst of both worlds.
I agree. As I posted earlier I did not appreciate the rebuilding that was done north of Eastern Parkway (where the line becomes elevated). Just before Park Place the Shuttle becomes single-tracked which was a stupid cost-cutting measure. Remember that the MTA wasn't interested in saving the line originally, so they of course weren't 100% behind doing it RIGHT.
At least the line is there to provide somewhat of an alternative when the Manny B. goes out of commission.
Doug aka BMTman
At least the line is there to provide somewhat of an alternative when the Manny B. goes out of commission.
If the Manny B goes out of commission, I believe the TA would be compelled to very speedily double-track the line and lengthen the stations. Unfortunately, right now, what is there is a single-track NYC version of Philadelphia's Norristown Line.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Unfortunatly, the 150' trains couldn't handle the crush ofpeople that would need this line should the bridge get knocked out. That's really the only reason you could justify spending $70 million on this insignificant little line.
Is it just me or do I notice some cynicism in your postings?
Yup. A totally new, beautiful Franlin Shuttle which almost nobody rides, and which would be all but worthless should the Manhattan Bridge collapse. Meanwhile, the city has still not constructed ANY part of the badly needed Second Ave. line. You can't help but be cynical ...
Why do they even terminate the B at 145th? Isn't 168th a natural terminal for the CPW local? I'm sure the C line isn't taking ALL the caacity up there ...
who has the lowest traffic into stillwell B D F N
Actually, up until a year and a half ago, I was commutiing To the Helmsley bldg. in Manhattan. Starting at 17th St. I would basically have three options:
I could get on any local and get off at Pacific St and Get the B to Rockefeller center. The R would nicely full, the M would have a few open seats. I could always take the R sraight to Union Square, with a seat guaranteed after Pacific St. Id change at Union Square for the 4 or 5 one stap to 42. In all honesty, that was the about the same time as the next option, but guaranteed a seat.
On the other hand, I could change at Pacific from the M or R to the 4 or 5. There was practically no headway, never a wait. BUT THE TRAINS WERE OBSCENELY PACKED. With the 4 or 5 flying in Manhattan. Same time as above.
Or change at Pacific or Dekalkb for the D, B, or Q and get off at Rockerfeler Plaza. All 3 very packed, but with a ride over the Manhattan Bridge. Longest of the three.
Which one would you take?
People prefer the Brighton line because it is much faster than the N or B to Coney Island. Perhaps there should be an F express, or a Sea Beach express.
Then again I've seen it crowded on the BMT 4th avenue line, perhaps there are alot of people sick and staying home (there's a bad virus going around).
When I was on the subways it seemed less crowded at rush hour this week. Even Penn wasn't too bad.
That's a myth. The B is the fastest way to get from Atlantic/Pacific to Coney Island. All the time saved by a Brighton express is lost when you have to get off and wait for a local at Sheepshead Bay.
I hate to admit it, but the B is the fastest way into the City from Coney Island, but only by 4 minutes. Now if they ran the Brighton Exp to Coney Island that would be quicker. Use 1 Stillwell platform for the local, 1 for the express. switch at Ocean Parkway.
Where were you riding? South of Dekalb the N and R are packed during the rush. The M never seems to be quite full at any time. r riders generally transfer to the N at 59th if they want to get to Pacific,and they transfer at either 36th, Pacific or Dekalb for B/D/Q trains. Only those needing acces directly to lower Manhattan use the N or R past Dekalb. If your a Sea Beach rider and you want Union Sq, 34th St/Herald Sq or Times SQ, you're almost forced to transfer to other lines in Brooklyn, even though the N might take you directly to these stations. If the @#$%! bridge was ever to resume 4 track service, it would decrease overcrowding on all the IRT lines coming in from Brooklyn, not to mention the crowding on the B and D.
Maybe it's time that Nassau St service was cut back to Broad Street at all times. This line has very limited appeal to riders and it's capacity could be better served by more N and R trains.
Better yet -- Cut back the M to Broad Street and restore T service to Broadway.... Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Maybe it's time that Nassau St service was cut back to Broad Street at all times. This line has very limited appeal to riders and it's capacity could be better served by more N and R trains."
Thanks ChrisR.
N Broadway Express
Two recent acts of total stupidity have renewed my faith in the future - in that I have not seen it all yet.
Incident #1: Yesterday at about 2:15 PM I was at the 205th St station on my beloved D line. A female cleaner approached her supervisor and told him that she could not clean the car to which she was assigned. She then pointed into the car. I boarded with the supervisor and observed a gentleman with his trousers down (not mearly open), urinating into his coffee cup. This was done in full view of the 6 or so people who were in that car. I ordered the gentleman off the train and with the assistance of a NYPD trainee, had the gentleman forcably ejected from the system. His final words to the officer were that he wanted me charged with racism.....
Incident #2: I was returning from the dentist at about 11:25 this AM. I was driving along Union Blvd. in West Islip which parallels the LIRR Montauk Branch. about a block east of the footbridge that spans the tracks, I saw a woman struggling to cross the tracks with her child in a stroller. The wheels were continually becoming the lodged in the ballast. I also saw the headlight of an approaching train about a mile away from the east. I pulled over to assist her but she dragged the stroller over the east-bound track and into the clear before I could get out of the car. Had a cop been around, I wonder if she could have been charged with child endangerment........
The first one sounds like a typical day on the D train to me although stuff like that doesn't usually happen at 205th.
People do stupid things like that everywhere. The difference -- in New York, when you call them on it, they don't exactly apologise.
The other day at the 7th Ave stop on the F, the woman in front of me entering the turnstile had her monthly pass run out. So she took out her replacement and went through the (highwheel) turnstile, after DROPPING THE OLD ONE ON THE GROUND. "Dropping that there wasn't very nice" I said. She starts berating me and the TA -- "Why isn't there a wastebasket there" she said. She became even more infuriated when I pointed out that hers was the only one on the floor.
I said to the other people there "got to let the SOBs know someone is watching them." Next time, she'll look around to make sure no one is looking, THEN drop the card on the floor.
I am not condoning action #1. I do remember a time when there were safe, working public conveniences in every subway and elevated station. I believe the management that removed these facilities deserves at least an honorable mention, if a stupidity award is given in this category.
205th Street has a working, albiet not modern, facility on the mezzanine. The person is a disfunctional, anti-social miscreant. Had it been a member of my family and not an employee, he might have not have made out so well.
Again, let me say that I do not condone or approve this person's action.
However, my point was one of predictable availability of public conveniences. One in ten or twenty stations is not reasonable. Working public conveniences in every station is a civilizing influence.
Why can the TA not publish a list of open facilities? At least this way one can find their way there and use the facilities. Anyone who is caught relieving themselves at a dark corner of a station without public facilities should not be punished by the TA, THEY should be the ones SUING THE TA! Although this is a different situation than the one mentioned.
Until about 3 weeks ago there were Men's and Women's bathrooms at the Broadway/East New York junction on the street level by the A/C line connections. Due to some renovations at the station complex they have been closed (no indications when they will be reopened/rebuilt).
Doug aka BMTman
[Until about 3 weeks ago there were Men's and Women's bathrooms at the Broadway/East New York junction on the street level by
the A/C line connections. Due to some renovations at the station complex they have been closed (no indications when they will be
reopened/rebuilt). ]
Want to start a pool as to when these bathrooms are returned to service? Might I suggest a date tied to the completion of the Manhattan Brige repairs? :-)
Probably the next Millennium!
Naw, I don't think these bathrooms will be ready in a year.
What might they be renovating there at Broadway-East NY? Not a very attractive station at all. Perhaps they'll do something about that ugly shade of blue wall tile they have there - make it match Liberty/Van Siclen/Shepherd. They would only have to do the center part over, the edges are the right (almost) color. It would brighten up a dreary place. New platform surface needed too. Make the lighting like that at Utica too. OH - Don't forget to rehab the escalators.
Wayne
Maybe they could put new "facilities" where the old Canarsie cross under was. They have the room now!!!
More likely they'll use whatever leftover room to try and install elevators since the big Bway/East New York complex has NO handicapped access facilities and sorely needs one.
Doug aka BMTman
Agreed. Finding facilities in the subway system is NOT easy. There SHOULD be more of them - there's one catch though. How do you keep vagrants (I don't want to refer to them as bums) and homeless people from taking up residence inside them, as I have seen on some occasions. You'd have to post a matron or guard at each one, something the cost-conscious NYCT probably wouldn't agree to.
Wayne
At least he wasn't pissing on the floor of the car....
-Hank :)
Although I'm remaining neutral and not making any comment pro or con I just want to let the readers know that the LIRR in W.Islip is not electrified, there is no third rail.
Picking up the idea of the lack of facilities, remember there would be pay toilets in the city by now if Rudy didn't have a four year process to pick a franchisee than kill it at the end.
The other day, I decide to walk through Prospect Park to the IRT on the way into work. Suddenly, the morning coffee decided it wanted to come out, and work seemed a long way away. What to do? I briefly considered going behind a tree, even though that can get you a trip to Rikers Island these days, but I looked and saw that with no leaves and the park full of dog walkers and joggers there was no way that could work.
Fortunately, as a result of the fireworks last weekend, there were still a few Port-O-Johns standing at Grand Army Plaza.
If the pay toilet kiosks had been approved, there would probably have been one in that vicinity -- permanently.
I heard it was also hung up because the city had to go through something like 50 agencies to get each one approved.
...Or pissing on the third rail.
On more than one occasion I've observed skells standing between cars on the L here in Chicago and taking a leak off to the side while the train is roaring along the tracks.
Somehow by the grace of God they manage to avoid hitting the third rail with their urine stream, or falling down between the cars when the train makes a sudden movement.
Actually, there was a case a few years ago when some guy was staggering home from a party, climbed over a fence on the way, and decided to heed nature's call on the third rail of the Skokie Swift line. His next-of-kin sued the CTA because the "High Voltage - Keep out" signs on the fence weren't bilingual. Of course, they collected.
Lawyers and third rails... Difficult not to see the creative potential in that combo after hearing about a story like that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
"Actually, there was a case a few years ago when some guy was staggering home from a party, climbed over a fence on the way, and decided to heed nature's call on the third rail of the Skokie Swift line. His next-of-kin sued the CTA because the 'High Voltage -
Keep out' signs on the fence weren't bilingual. Of course, they collected."
Close, very close. It was the Ravenswood (Brown) line where it runs at ground level in an alley. (The Yellow line has no grade crossings on its third-rail portion, only on the segment of the line with catenary.) Yes, the man was drunk as a lord coming home late at night from a party, and he entered onto the line to relieve himself -- IIRC, he was found with his zipper open and burn marks on the end of his exposed, um, organ. But he didn't hop the fence, he entered onto the line where it crosses a street and is completely open to passersby.
So the widow *did* win her suit because the warning signs were solely in English. (Have you seen CTA's replacement warning signs with the pictogram of a man leaping backward as lightning flashes out of the third rail?) But she *also* won because CTA did nothing to stop people from going onto the line where it crosses streets. It was a drunk man this time, but it could be a little kid the next time. CTA argued that gates across the right of way, open for trains but otherwise closed, were too expensive. However, they have them on the two grade crossings of the Evanston (Purple) line in Wilmette. I guess that, at least to CTA, a kid's (or drunk man's) life is worth more in tony Wilmette than in immigrant Albany Park (or blue-collar Cicero and Berwyn: the Blue line, Cermak Branch, is the only other portion of the CTA system with at-grade third rail).
Maybe the guy's widow still should have lost (the jury DID find that the man was partially responsible for his own death). But the case is simply not as cut-and-dried as it first seems. A brief summary and explanation of the case (unfortunately, I can't link to the court decision itself, since Illinois Supreme Court cases online don't go back as far as 1992) is at:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/death/peeing_on_third_rail.html
After reading that newsgroup url you posted I take it the third rail was unprotected, that it looked just like the 2 running rails with no wood covering. If that's the case I think the CTA should have been held liable since it was a grade crossing. But not for the language part.
You are correct in that the third rail is unprotected, as it is throughout the entire CTA system. However, the end of the third rail is a good 6-8 feet away from the sidewalk, with about 5 feet of the so-called "cattle boards" between the sidewalk and the third rail, along with large signs warning people to stay off the tracks. It's not impossible for a pedestrian to get near the third rail, but the cattle boards make it very difficult.
Regardless, there is no way to get around the fact that the guy's death is a direct result of his own stupidity. It's no different than if he had gotten behind the wheel of a car while drunk and smashed into a tree at 60 MPH. The only difference is that the CTA makes a much more convenient target for a lawsuit.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Does it look just like a running rail?
Not at all. It's raised by a considerable distance and located off to the side. Very similar to the third rail on the NYC subway system, minus the protective board on top.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I must say, I love that url!!!
Question about Incident #1, what happened to the train or car after the incident?
Nothing happened to the car. The person urinated in a cup - not on the floor. The train was cleaned and left on schedule.
Nothing happened to the car. The person urinated in a cup - not on the floor. The train was cleaned and left on schedule.
Ok, so I guess it goes without saying that he was holding the cup in his hand, while using his other hand for, um, shooting straight. Good thing the train wasn't moving at the time, lest he loose balance and fall over while discharging. Now that's a mess I wouldn't want to clean up.
When I first read the story I somehow assumed that the cup was on the floor and he was taking a leak into it... I was about to give the guy high marks for accuracy if he was able to pull a stunt like that and not get any splatter on the floor. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Well, at least he was considerate enough to not piss on the floor or seats.
[Incident #1: Yesterday at about 2:15 PM I was at the 205th St station on my beloved D line. A female cleaner approached her supervisor and told him that she could not clean the car to which she was assigned. She then pointed into the car. I boarded with the supervisor and observed a gentleman with his trousers down (not mearly open), urinating into his coffee cup. This was done in full view of the 6 or so people who were in that car. I ordered the gentleman off the train and with the assistance of a NYPD trainee, had the gentleman forcably ejected from the system. His final words to the officer were that he wanted me charged with racism.....]
Charged with racism. What a laugh. The skell should thank his lucky stars that he was merely ejected from the system and not charged with indecent exposure. In addition to whatever criminal penalties would be imposed, I believe a conviction for that offense may require registration as a sex offender.
Incident #2: I was returning from the dentist at about 11:25 this AM. [I was driving along Union Blvd. in West Islip which parallels the LIRR Montauk Branch. about a block east of the footbridge that
spans the tracks, I saw a woman struggling to cross the tracks with her child in a stroller. The wheels were continually becoming the lodged in the ballast. I also saw the headlight of an approaching train about a mile away from the east. I pulled over to assist her but she dragged the stroller over the east-bound track and into the clear before I could get out of the car. Had a cop been around, I
wonder if she could have been charged with child endangerment........]
Just think, if the woman and the child had been hit by the train (which of course could not possibly have stopped in time), their estate would have won a multi-million $$ judgment against the LIRR.
BTW: The train was not a scheduled LIRR consist. It was a NY&A freight, two GP-38s around a boxcar and a tank car.
Going to the central branch I would presume. Boning Bros.
get's cars from a facing point switch off a siding and
then a second customer gets a car from a trailing point.
Best way to do it is wth two engines.
Unless this was the Montauk branch. Was it a Tuesday? Then
it's the RS30 going to Bridgehampton with a tank car of
LPG. The box car was the legally required spacer between
HazMat and occupied engines. Sandwiched between the geeps
so the return trip can be done without having the engine
running in reverse and not needing to go all the way to MY
to wye theengines. Saves a lot of time for a crew that
almost always times out because of the long distances at
only 45 MPH.
#1: Perhaps the low-life was just getting a urine sample ready to deliver to his supervisor to quench his thirst ;-)
#2: Why did the woman with a stroller cross the railroad? Because she was a complete idiot.
Hey Steve,was the supervisor my buddy MS-1 Riggy? I bet he wishes he didn't pick out of East NY.
MS-I Riggy was not the supervisor on duty. The regulas Supervisor was. Riggy was there on the weekends but with the impending promotion of his predecessor, Riggy is moving up with better RDOs. Bet he's glad he left ENY.
(Incident #1: Yesterday at about 2:15 PM I was at the 205th St station on my beloved D line. A female cleaner approached her supervisor and told him that she could not clean the car to which she was assigned. She then pointed into the car. I boarded with the supervisor and observed a gentleman with his trousers down (not mearly open), urinating into his coffee cup. This was done in full view of the 6 or so people who were in that car. I ordered the gentleman off the train and with the assistance of a NYPD trainee, had the gentleman forcably ejected from the system. His final words to the officer were that he wanted me charged with racism.....)
This must have been the same slob that I saw urinating on the seats while standing in the first car of a downtown "D" train at Bedford Park this morning on my way to work at 0330. Also in full view of all on the car.
Incredible,
Andee
Well, about 5 years ago on an E train at W4th, a "skell" got on the train, dropped his pants, and used one of the seats as a toilet. And he did #2, not #1. With no hole in the seat, you can imagine what happened. Sorry to gross you all out.
On the light rail line I work on in Stockholm, the same thing happened this past Saturday (New Year's Day). Plus the guy pissed in the doorwell (the steps where the door is).
I still remember, from my first months in Stockholm, the shock of standing on a street corner downtown at about six p.m. on a Friday, and seeing a man standing across the street with his fly open, peeing into the gutter. Facing the street.
One of the reasons they quit running all-night service on weekends on the subway here, in 1997, was that too many men (generally drunk) were climbing down onto the tracks to do #1, and getting hit by trains.
-- Tim
I saw at least 6 people pissing in the streets of London over the past week, and I'm not including all of the people that I saw doing their business on New Year's. Even women too! It brought a whole new understanding to the derivation of the British term, "pissed".
All this gross stuff makes me wonder how much bacteria and viruses are on subway trains. After my railfanning twice this week I came down with a nasty stomach virus that was so bad I had to pay a visit to the emergency room.
The 7X train I took had a bum that smelled like vomit. After my recent bout with the stomach virus (I'm still recovering) it'll make me think twice about looking out the front window if a smelly bum or sick person is sitting near there.
I wonder how much viruses and bacteria are in the trains. I remember hearing something about how much germs get stuck in the ventilation systems. And ventilation is terrible in the Redbirds.
The FLU is rampant these days. While moving up in a #7 train Saturday I entered a car where some poor person had just lost their lunch. I got out of there quick.
Wayne
not on the number # 7 !!!!!!! thats my favorite train !!!!!!
It can (and usually does) happen anywhere, unfortunately. I am sure they got the sawdust out when they got to Times Square.
Wayne
I thought Marta was your favorite line.
Think you meant that one for Mr. Willie, Sarge. Anyway, for the record, my home away from home isn't MARTA (see Mr. Train Control on that one) - it's WMATA - Washington DC.
Wayne
Oh no, not again. Deja vu all over again, eh?
Well, sort of. The #7 train on Saturday wasn't that crowded, and the problem car still had a few dozen people still in it (oblivious to the mess). Stuff like that kind of unnerves me. I get away from it as fast as I can. Back in '73, trapped in the grip of humanity aboard the careening R-6-2 #1277, I had absolutely nowhere to go. Fortunately (for me, at least) I was near the head end of the car, the accident happened near the rear.
Wayne
While I've never gotten sick as a direct result from railfanning, you bring up a good point.
There have been several posts speculating on where the R-16's were first put into service. They made their debut on the BMT Jamaica Line.
In the fall of 1954, several trains of R-10's went into service on the BMT Jamaica Line to familiarize BMT crews with their workings. In January of 1955 the first train of R-16's went into service on the same line. The trains arrived on a regular basis, but always made up in the same 10 number series, i.e. a new train would have cars numbered 6421,6425,6420,6424,6427,6429,6426 & 6428. While within the same ten number series, none of the trains were ever in perfect numerical order. The 6400's were delivered first, and upon completion the 6300's started to arrive. It seemed that the first car delivered was 6400 and the last car delivered was 6399. There must have been 50 or 60 cars delivered before they started to mix the cars together and we might see a train with cars numbered 6407,6435,6449,6424,6400,6413,6417 & 6428.
In the early weeks it seemed that the R-16's did not run at night, but before long Jamaica service was being provided by trains of Standards, R-10's and R-16's. As delivery progressed, the Standards slowly disappeared, but they never disappeared completely.
I lived 80 feet from the el and worked in the bank on the corner of Fulton and Crescent. I had a co-worker who was even more of a transit fan than I was. If I missed a new train of R-16's, he didn't, and would tell me about it much to the chagrin of our head teller.
Interesting facts about the R-16
1) They were delivered with IND signage, but were rapidly changed.
2) Publicity pictures of car 6400 with given to the news media, showing the car with IND signage. I still have one of these 8 x 10's in my scrapbook.
3) I rode in 6407 the day after I first saw it in the first train, and if I was not riding in a brand new car, I sure was fooled.
4) The first 20 R-16's were delivered without standee poles, but were retrofitted later.
5) All of the R-10's on the BMT were numbered in the 3300 series. They continued to serve, even after the R-16 order was complete.
6) I have never been able to understand why the 6400's were all delivered before the 6300's.
As delivery progressed, the Standards slowly disappeared, but they never disappeared completely.
I first rode the Jamaica Line early in 1957--prob. February. In my memory Jamaica was nothing but R16s, with the rare exception of extreme weather, especially snow, when I might get a Standard or two.
I occasionally saw R16s on Canarsie, rarely on the Broadway Short Line.
Paul....If I recall prior to Chrystie St., the Broadway-Brooklyn Line (aka Broadway Short Line) was exclusively serviced by R-16's..running from Canal St. to Atlantic Ave., with some trains continuing on to Rockaway Pky. and Crescent St. The line ran rush-hours only. We're talking the early-to-mid-60's.
Carl M.
I think it may have been right here in SubTalk, but someone stated the reason the 6400's were delivered before the 6300's was that the 6300's were Westinghouse cars and the 6400's were GE, and there was a strike at Westinghouse which delayed production.
The same strike that ALMOST delayed the opening of the Rockaway service, right?
The same strike that ALMOST delayed the opening of the Rockaway service, right?
That's right. Also part of the reason, I think, that the R-16s weren't put into use on IND lines, even though they came equipped that way. R-16s were supposed to ply the then-new Rockaway Division, but did so only on opening day because of the Westinghouse strike. Even the R-10s couldn't run there as a result - service started with the R-1/9s with speed restrictions.
Some of the electrical equipment was borrowed from the Dyre Ave line.
--Mark
One wonders if the performance record of the R16 would have not been as dismal as it was had they been put onto a more favored IND line, and not the bottom of the barrel (BMT Eastern Division) ...
I doubt that-I had an uncle that used to say," A piece of s--- is a piece of s---, no matter where you do it".....
But were they a "piece of sh_t"? Perhaps their years of neglect turned them into sh_t.
In Ed Davis' book,THEY MOVED THE MILLIONS; he says (and he was a motorman for many years), that even when new they had to pull them off the Broadway el when it snowed, and run the old stand-by standards in their place....But yet, the R-17s, which are just scaled down 16s, ran fine for years..go figure....
PLEASE! Make a distinction between poorly running GE cars and the better run Westinghouse ones. The GE's came and gave the WE cars a bad name. They never were that bad as the GE's hence their final days as work motors. If they were as bad then they wouldn't have been used.
The
me
Folks--
In case you folks haven't see this, C service will be out for a whole month. The details are under .
Does anyone ever remember of a long-term outage of a whole line? We're not talking about lines that went away and came back, or lines that were renamed. I'm thinking of a long-term service outage over an ENTIRE line. (So Manhattan Bridge outages don't count.)
Kind regards,
Michael
So what train will operate as the 8th Ave Local and the Fulton St. Local? Could it be that the E will take over through Brooklyn... (I don't think so)
Frank D
This probably has to due with the closing of WTC Station. My guess is that the B runs up CPW all times except nights, shuttle to Queensbridge.
Why is the World Trade Center station being ciosed,and is the 'C'line being discontinued for a month?
The WTC stub is being closed so the crossover switch can be completely replaced. The C line is being sacrificed because the E needs another southern terminal, and it's stealing Euclid Ave.
Thank you. As always you have pearls of wisdom
Frank--
Your dream is coming true... check the advisory.
(http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm)
The E will be extended to Euclid Avenue all times except nights. And the B will run to 168th Street on weekends.
(All right, time for the Brighton Line fans to start dreaming... will the Q replace the B to 21st Street evenings and weekends? The advisory doesn't say so. But don't be the farm on it. If anything happens, we're likely to get the same pattern we got for the 63rd Street line work [the shuttle will run from 21st to 57th/7th, and 57th/6th will be closed].)
Michael
Mike,
Almost my dream. I always wanted the E train running to Brooklyn to Euclid, but as the 8th Ave Express and Fulton St Express all times. Then have the A run 8th Ave Express all times, and Fulton St Express Weekdays. Well I'll take this for now..
Frank D
Your name is Queens Blvd. Express. Let me guess, you are a F Train. Hey QBE, are a steel dust breathing dragon roaming under Queens Blvd.?
Thats funny... no dragons....
E and the F have been my favorite lines since my short tenure on this planet, but know enough about both lines.
Frank D
Where would the E go at night time then?
3TM
The TA www site says nothing about that. It either runs to Euclid with the A local as well or there is a shuttle from Jamacia to 71 Ave with transfers to the F there.
I though I heard that the A was going to be running Express in Brookly all times, then I guess that the E can run local to Euclid all times..
Frank D
No, the E will go to Brooklyn only during the days & hours the C currently goes there.
Probably Houston-Second Ave., with the A alone serving Spring Street, Canal and Chambers-WTC
Don't forget that there is an unused layup track between the Canal St. and Chambers St. stations, and the E could use that at nights, so they might terminate at Canal St.
Why not do that at all times? It would leave the other lines out of it.
Sounds logical... except for a few things.
How many trains can the layup track handle? Probably one, no more than two. The first question is what do you do with trains between rush hours. The second question is how do you make moves quickly enough so that the A and C don't get caught up in delays. In some dayparts, you'd have little or no layover time.
It would be ridiculous.
There is another solution, but I don't know how time-efficient this one would be. Send the E along the F tracks from West Fourth Street to Second Avenue, where they could turn.
Thoughts on that?
Michael
The various towers would have a hard time identifying the trains......a very slow move into Second Ave. since a call on must be taken......lots of E passengers ride to Spring, Canal & WTC.
The big "problem" with the E to Euclid is that its a service improvement for Brooklyn, since more Es run than Cs. If it were not for the need to save a few cars -- and run a few more trains to 23rd and Spring in Manhattan -- the E 8th Avenue express to Euclid and C local to WTC makes more sense. Queens riders save a couple of stops downtown, Brooklyn riders save a couple of stops uptown, and you don't need to do that merge at Canal Street.
Brooklyn riders could get used to this.
Now that the Fulton St. line runs express every day, the reason for switching the C and E in 1976 no longer exists. Fulton St would be better served by the E train.
It couldn't handle the traffic coming off the E line, and would unnaceptably back up A and C trains
What are the exact specifics? Will the A run local
north of 145th? Is the B adequate enough to handle the rush hour load of CPW local riders? When will this plan take effect?
My question is, how with they divide up the train yard assignments? Will the B get some of its extra cars from the C's inventory at 207th St., and will the E have some cars stored at Pitkin yard instead of all at Jamaica?
My guess is that the entire fleet of C train cars will be parcelled out between the E and B lines as they are needed. So I'd expect to see R32's on the B. Maybe even a few R38's on the E.
The B will be increased. 3 extra trains out of Concourse each day. Hence, it would mean that 2-4 extra trains from the south to balance. The E train will neeed to be suplimented out of Pitkin Yard. However, there will be no transfer of equipment. Cars will remain in the fleet of the yards to which they are currently assigned.
So if the B is getting their extra trains out of Concourse and Coney Island, will the C trains out of 207th be used on the A line and some of the A/Cs at Pitkin be assigned to the E?
My guess is that the R32's from The C line will be configured for use on the E line, but remain assigned to the Pitkin Yard. The B will probably get a few extra R68's from the N line. This is the only way I can see that this could work without transferring cars from one yard to another.
That link is NYCT SERVICE NOTICES.
My understanding is this General Order is to replace the interlocking just north of World Trade Center, so that terminal will be out-of-service for the month. Yes, E trains will go to Euclid!
When is the last time that the E went to Brooklyn? I can remember back in the late 1960's when the E was the express on the Fulton line and went to Rockaway Park. I'm not sure if it went to Far Rockaway.
IIRC, January 1976. E rush hour service went from 179/Hillside to Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway. Ever since then, E south terminal has been WTC, 24/7.
BTW, that's why the lower level at 42/8 was closed for good - no longer needed for E trains to run south on the 8th Ave. Exp.
Can someone clear up:
(1) Does the B suspend its Concourse rush hour service, with the D local at all times, or is the B split between 168th and Bedford Park?
(2) Will the E run to Euclid on weekends?
Question 1: The A train will stop at 155th and 163rd Sts via crossovers at 145th and 168th Sts. Two additional stops won't put a gap in service on the A. B Trains continue to run on CPW to 145th Sts and then to Bedford Pk Blvd in the rush hours. There are no changes here, other than an increase in B service.
Question 2: E trains will run to Euclid even on the weekends. C trains ran into Brooklyn on the weekends, so the most logical thing to do is to replace the C with the E, even on the weekend.
As a side note, it's unclear where the E will terminate during the night hours, but my guess is the Chambers St spur. With little or no traffic during the night hours, turning trains around on the spur should not be a problem.
-Stef
As a user of the Rockaway Avenue station, I think it's a really stupid idea to cancel the C line.
Why does the TA have to make everything so confusing for passengers? Wouldn't it be more simple just to terminate the E at Second Avenue rather than introduce a unfamiliar line to dozens of stations and hundreds of passengers? No one expects the E train to go to Brooklyn.
Better to confuse city residents than have the suburbanites inconvienenced. LOL
That is true, but it did at one time.... LOL
Frank D
As it's been explained before, terminating trains at Second Ave would back up the F line into Brooklyn unnacceptably. That interlocking can't handle rush hour E traffic.
Besides, C riders will benefit from having 10 car E trains running in Brooklyn. More seats or everyone.
As it's been explained before, terminating trains at Second Ave would back up the F line into Brooklyn unnacceptably. That interlocking can't handle rush hour E traffic.
Besides, C riders will benefit from having 10 car E trains running in Brooklyn. More seats for everyone.
What confusion? Read the signs, if they're accurate. The reason they're doing this is probably because they need to serve the WTC. Of course, you've got the problem of how badly the service will be screwed up when the E goes all the way around like that.
- Hank
Perhaps. But the E will replace the C, so you're not at a total loss.
-Stef
(1) The TA does not have enough cars to extend the E to Euclid outright while leaving everything else the same; and (2) I see an actual increase in Fulton St. local service while the C is suspended.
When will all this begin?
Joe C
January 28, Friday at 10PM until Monday Morning, February 28 at 5AM.
-Stef
What is the latest update on the delivery of the R142A's to Yonkers or NYCT? Also, what is going on with deliveries of the R142's?
YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL IN ENTERING TUNNEL ON THE 155TH STREET SHUTTLE.
LETS GO TO THE 106TH STREET STATION ON THE IND FULTON STREET LINE. IT DOES EXIST.
Can you confirm that?
It's the abandoned station near Pitkin Yard.
Can something be considered abandoned if it was never bandoned?
I was told it didn't exist.
There is no 106th St. station on the Fulton St. line. The closest you get to that is the 104th/Oxford el stop. These rumors of unused stations east of Euclid Ave. have popped up now and again, but none are true.
I'm intrigued. How does one get down there?
--Mark
Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig has ordered John Rocker to undergo psychological testing after his recent remarks about New York City. Comments, Anyone
Hopefully, the psychiatrist he orders him to see has his office somewhere around Main Street on the Flushing line.
A waste of money!!! There is nothing there to examine
Reminds me of an old news bulletin, modernized for this topic ....
" ... x-rays were taken of [John Rocker's] head after the incident. The x-rays showed nothing".
--Mark
[Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig has ordered John Rocker to undergo psychological testing after his recent remarks about New York City. Comments, Anyone]
Selig is an idiot himself (but that's nothing that hasn't been known for a long time). Psychological testing is ridiculous in this situation. What in the world is it supposed to show - that Rocker wasn't mentally responsible for his comments? That's not psychology, it's psychobabble ... assuming there IS a difference, of course. Selig should either (a) accept Rocker's apology and let the matter drop, or (b) impose some sort of punishment. Ordering psychological testing is just a way of weaseling out of decision-making.
CNN has posted an article on the subject: http://cnnsi.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/01/06/rocker_tests_ap/index.html
[Selig should either (a) accept Rocker's apology and let the matter drop]
I think WE should let the matter drop. I live in Atlanta and I personally think he is a complete idiot, everyone else on Subtalk seems to think so, too. I don't see how some people here still want to drag this on.
I don't think anyone should let the matter drop. Rocker should be held accountable for his actions and words. If you or I said anything like that, it would be like the tree that fell in the forest that nobody heard when it fell. John Rocker is using his position as a Major League Baseball Player on the team that won the National League Championship to make his platform of haterd and bigotry known to the masses. He is a sick puppy that craves attention in a very sick and warped way. He is like a serial killer that keeps killing because he wants the police to catch him. Why? For attention. Don't you see what a rise he gets when 50,000 fans boo him all at once. He laps it up. This sicko should be banned from Baseball. The name John Rocker is not a househiold word for the same reason that Mark Mcgwire is. John Rocker is a household word because he is highly controversial. Rocker is a detriment to Baseball.
NYC TRANSIT
I didn't mean that Rocker shouldn't go unpunished or that the matter should be dropped from public debate, I meant it should be dropped from Subtalk. We're here to talk about subways, not baseball
I didn't start the thread. I just respond to it. The Rocker thread was the #1 thread for a while. Then it died down. When the posts were there, I responded to them. When they weren't there, I didn't look to revive it, but as long as somebody else did, I jumped in there. That idiot made some very strong anti-New York statements. Certainly, you can understand the anti-Rocker sentiment in New York. Once everyone gets their 2¢ in and beats the dead horse for a little while longer, it will die down.
NYC TRANSIT
What happened to your BMT Standard image?? I miss it. Please bring it back!!!!!!
What happened to your BMT Standard image?? I miss it. Please bring it back!!!!!!
Its back, by popular demand!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This is a very stupid response to the stupid comments that Rocker made. As offensive as Rocker's comments were, he is entitled to make them. The baseball owners and executives should make it clear that they disagree strongly with Rocker's comments, and let it go at that. After all, Rocker was hired for his athletic ability, not his intelligence. This practice of labeling attitudes we don't like as being the products of so-called "mental illness" is a very unfortunate development. It indicates that people in the U.S. do not fully understand or appreciate what the freedoms guaranteed to Americans really mean.
Here is my honest opinion:
He made some comments. He made them in PUBLIC. THEREIN lies the problem.
Every one of us have opinions about other people, places, etc. Not all of our opinions are what those other people WANT to hear. Keep them private, and nobody has a problem.
Unfortunately, Rocker didn't. But I don't think it is worthy of psychological testing/therapy. If it was, we should ALL be undergoing testing or therapy.
I agree with the previous posts that a man is entitled to his opinion. It's called "freedom of speech" from a little know document called the United States CONSTITUTION. Of course, Rocker should have kept these opinions to himself in these "Political Correct" times.
But here's baseball's problem (or rather Clueless Bud's problem). After Marge Schott's diarhea of the mouth and Al Campanis' stupid comment on Nightline how can they let this go un-ignored. You can't have a double standard...one for players and one for executives...
Besides they would have to clothe Rocker in a bullet proof vest and a battle helmet and more padding than a hockey goalie when he goes to Shea or any other city that has a large minority population....Of course any protest or boycott by Sharpton and his ilk probably scares
Selig and they are now in a bunker mentality.
Best thing would be to have him sent to a west coast team to shut him up. NY Rangers did it to Don Murdock in the late 60's early 70's when he was caught doing drugs in NYC ( I think heroin but I'm not sure).
Some of you may remember back before the introduction of door chimes to rapid transit (anyone know the date of the first one?). It was awful. Every day thousands of riders were crushed to an agonizing death in the jaws of subway doors. After all, how would anyone know that after dwelling in the station for a certain amount of time and the conductor seeing that nobody was in the way, how would you know that you shouldn't suddenly bolt for the door only to get caught!
And of course there were no announcements as to what station you were in, so everyone was lost and that was the root cause of homelessness.
Children constantly plunged to their death when they climbed out the open windows as the trains careened out of control at 90 mph due to lack of GT signals and speedometers. (Although this pales compared to the loss of life that occurred from open vestibles.)
Then there was the all to frequent horror of innocent people getting fried because there was nothing to stop them from licking spilled ice cream off the third rail.
Thank heavens those days are behind us. Of course nobody here would remember this because there were no survivors.
Bill
Stay tuned for tomorrow's expose on why no school children survived the sixties because the schools were full of asbestos and their parents were all dead from radon.
You forgot to mention the thousands of people who died each summer on the subway system due to heat stroke, because there were no air conditioned cars.
And what about those tall people who were injured by the overhead fans :-)
Oh yea. Often was the time you'd be waiting to get on a Low V or an R-1/9, the doors would open and someone's damn head would come rolling out of the train. Not to mention how slippery the floors were from all that blood, though it blended it better with the red padded seats than with the wicker...
Speaking of those wicker seats, how many times were you stabbed in the "derierre" by a broken wicker?!
Hey, I'm 6'8" and I always bang my head on the Washington Metro NOW. Those fans are killers.
Hahahahahahaha!!!!
This is bring back too many memories.
My memory of those wicker seats was that after a long ride, you got up and your buttcheeks felt like waffles!!
Yeah, but those red cushion seats were great!!!
Yeah, but those red cushion seats were great!!!
Not in summer, when you had to peel yourself off them.
Yeah, but those red cushion seats were great!!!
Not in summer, when you had to peel yourself off them.
You peel yourself off of fiberglass in the summer also. BTW, the Miami Metrorail has cloth seats. The last time I rode it was in 1992. I don't know if anything changed, but in 1992, there was no graffiti, no scratchiti and no ripped seats.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'll take any padded seats, even wicker, over the hard stuff.
NYC TRANSIT
You forgot to mention the thousands of people who died each summer on the subway system due to heat stroke, because there were no air conditioned cars.
Why don't you guys knock it off with all this exaggeration and all this nonsense. Thousands and millions dying in the subway? If any people in foreign countries who don't know any better read this nonsense, they would believe it and they would be horrified at the thought of coming to New York and riding the subway.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I may be biased on the issue of nonsense, but I feel
a little nonsense doesn't hurt. It's nice to see
that we can goof around a little bit and maybe take
things to extremes. If you're really concerned that
it will keep tourists away, well maybe if they don't
have a sense of humor, they should go to another
city.
I guess I'm making this point, partly because some
of our comrades over on the BusTalk side of the
fence could have used a few laughs yesterday.
Things got particularly ugly there again. Some
times we get so caught up in our knowledge and
passion about trains and buses that we may forget
that we should be having some fun.
C'mon Paul. Now you are getting me curious. How can a bulletin board about buses get ugly??? I mean buses ain't exactly religion or politics!!! What are the arguments about?? Exiting via the back door or the Front door?? What's more scenic, the Q12 or the N6? Should we go back to making change? I might just sneak over there to see for myself!!!
Trust me. Anyone who might take these posts that seriously won't be coming here, because they're still hiding in their bunker waiting for the delayed effects of Y2K to destroy civilization as we know it.
You mean its safe to come out now??
01/07/2000
You know, all those dummies who bought gasoline generators,canned food,bottled water and maybe old Civil Defense helmuts can contact those other dummies and unload all that Y2K stockpiles and recoup their losses.
Bill Newkirk
I always told people I would get all of that emergency stuff on February 1, 2000. I'm sure that there would be SUPER CLEARANCES and I didn't expect any Y2K crap.
And really, generators? Why would anyone need to keep their refrigerator running after the end of civilization?
Civilization, as we knew it was already destroyed. We all went to Cyber-Heaven.
NYC TRANSIT
You know you forgot the millions of passengers who were permanently blinded by steel dust when they opened the storm door windows on R22 cars at 100 MPH. Today there are now passengers who are bored to death from watching a station sign go by from the side window of an R68.
*reminds me of atlanta !!! the door chimes or loud "BEEP" and still people would get caught!!
even at the FIVE POINTS station!!!! thats waht happens when you have one operator opening and
closing the doors like chicago too !! i saw this nightmare in atalnta !!!!
I thought heypaul was the comedian in here!
Kevin---I have no problem with other comedians on
SubTalk. In fact my ultimate goal is to see SubTalk
become like Car Talk on the radio. Mostly laughs,
and a few questions about subway cars.
Reminds me of a "spot" for the 11:00 news I heard on New York's Channel 7 many years ago ...
"Man killed by Long Island Express Commuter. Details at 11".
(They forgot to say the word "train"!)
--Mark
Can anyone out there make any kind of sense out of the signals used on the Metro-North Commuter Railroad? I could figure out the old NY Central System signals, but the ones that are in use now are a mystery. I know that cab signals are in use to cut down on costs, but just out of curiosity, what are the indications for the ones that are in place now? Is the current trend going to be to an all cab signaled system? Will there be such a trend in the NY Subways? How about it, guys?
As I mentioned in a prior post, the NYCTA is not capable of responsibly handling millions of dollars. The TA will never go with a system proven for decades, nor will they ever lead the way in modern technology. Over a decade of AC traction before the TA tried it out. Three decades of cab signalling and the TA is still in the 19th century using cans and string for communication. I can't explain Metro-North as I studied NORAC only.
New York City Transit will invest $135 million for Communications Based Train Control and WILL make it work. That's as clear as paying taxes.
[New York City Transit will invest $135 million for Communications Based Train Control and WILL make it work]
How will they know if it works? Have they set operational criteria for a pass/fail judgement? Is this criteria sufficiently more stringent than than past performance so that any improvement can be attributed to the new technology?
Metro North has eliminated all wayside automatic block signals
and relies solely on cab signal indication. At the exits of
interlockings they now have a three-color-light signal with
Red/Green/Red bulbs. This can display Red-Red (stop), flashing
green (proceed on cab signal) and an absurd Manual Block
indication which is Red-Red interflashed with the center green.
This last one is used for manual control when cab signals are
inoperative. The standard NYCentral/NORAC color light signals
are still used at interlockings.
It functions as "clear to next interlocking" which means it's flashing when there are no trains in the entire distance to the next interlocking. If it comes on steady a train with functioning cab signals may proceed normal. A train with malfunctioning cab signals may not leave until it flashes indicating a clear track. The train must approach the next interlocking prepared to stop.
Thta's why PC physical charecteristics training is so importanant.
Metro North uses signals at interlockings that are "reduced instruction set" asspects. Matter of fact the SIRT is getting this system but with out the "reduced instruction set", they will stick with the B&O aspects currently used but they will only have signals at interlockings and full cab signals and automatic speed control. The orginal plan was to use communications based signaling, but NYCT didn't want to wait until a competitive system was devloped (they opted to develop the competitive system on the Canarsie Line). SIRT went with the tried and true Metro North System.
Probably part of the reason to install new signals on the SIRT was that there are no trip stops (like the rest of the subway) so there was no enforcement of the signals. Of couurse I never heard of any accidents due to lack of signal enforcement on the SIRT (Hank??) and there has been accidents on the rest of the subway.
Nope. No acidents due to passing signals. There are only 3 in recent memory, 2 derailments (a work train crossing over at Great Kills, and a derailment on the throat of St. George) and a train that had a brake failure and rammed the concrete stop at Tottenville.
-Hank
You know why right? Certification and federally mandated standards. Real engineers don't risk their licenses and management with the fed watching them doesn't play games. Big difference here huh?
Not to diminish your very valid point, Erik, but he didn't say
no red signal violations, just no accidents caused by them.
On a railroad that runs fairly relaxed headways, has long signal
blocks and has pretty good visibility all around, the chances of
hitting the next train are slim
They used to have a local train depart after an express from St. George with only 3 minutes apart. I think that is as close trains get at any time except for the put ins in the morning rush but that cross over move is with dispatcher approval.
SIR uses a 'call on' button at Great Kills and Huguenot, at least until recently. When they had only the trailing-point spring switches, they would pull the train clear of the points, change ends, and the engineer would push a button before proceeding through the crossover. They have just installed a new electrified spur at Great Kills, but the switches are all still hand throw. They were supposed to finish 'modernizing the track, signals, and switches' in 1995, but as of yet, there has been no action on the signals. All the crossovers were replaced, but most are still hand-throw, with a few spring switches. Eventually, it is believed that there would be bi-directional signals, and an increase in service from every 1/2 hour to every 20 minutes between 10A and 3:30P, and a corresponding increase in rush hour service.
-Hank
On most but I don't know for sure about SIRT railroads only home signals actually require a stop and stay. They are almost aways stop-and-proceed signals. After the stop the engineer goes at restricted speed.
On the LIRR we had three automatics called grade sigals on the Montauk West of Jamaica. These sigals could be passed at restricted speed without stopping if your train met certain requirements.
If you were going up the grade with over a certain amount of cars or the tonnage exceeded a specific capacity of the engines(they escape me at the moment) then a stop wasn't required. Made life easy for train crews. Otherwise the train wouldn't have been able to get started again on the hill after stopping for the signal.
Yeah, that's standard NORAC..a G plate makes an red automatic
mean restricting for freight trains....then depending on the
RR, for pax trains, sometimes the automatic is absolute by default
and is permissive if a white light is displayed beneath it or
(old LIRR/Pennsy rules, don't know if this still holds) there is
a milepost number plate on the signal. Some R.R. use an "A" fixed
plate sign to make an automatic absolute, otherwise it is permissive
(stop and proceed) by default.
SIR is not currently covered by FRA regs, as they are an embargoed line and no longer a common carrier.
All of the current signals, when red, are read as 'stop and proceed' When encountered during single-track operation, this requires a radio call, and engineers are told to proceed to the end of the single-track section 'in accordance with rule 509-A'
-Hank
All of the current signals, when red, are read as 'stop and proceed'
This includes interlocking signals as well, or only automatics?
No such thing. The only real 'interlocking' on the line is at St. George, where the 2 mains split into the 10 terminal tracks. This is unsignaled and totally controlled from tower B. the only other automatic switches on the line ar at the Tottenville end, where the 2 mains split into 2 platform tracks and 3 storage tracks. All other switches are hand-throw or trailing-point spring switches.
-Hank
Steve (or any other R-68 sighters out there),
Has anyone seen 2579 in service very recently, or are 2576, 2577 and 2578 still being held up because of 2579?
Thanks!
Nick (aka Knight Of The Golden Rose)
2579 is part of the last 4-car R-68 link. It is currently being inspected and fine tuned for service. Look for it next week some time.
Wow, they fixed that in a hurry! Good work, guys!
Wayne
The number plates on 2755 look like someone was having fun by applying
BMT standard 2755 plates to it. Can that be?
Joe C
That car was crushed on the side at CIYD during acceptance testing by a work train. Improper flagging was the cause. That car, I was told, left TA property to be repaired. It actually is the "newest" R68 in terms of service time. Unfortunately, matching number boards were not reproduced. I can assure you they are not the boards from BMT Standard 2755.
I that last time I saw 2755 the car numbers appeared to be decals.
Wayne
They are, and they are peeling.
(the other) Wayne
We used to use them on the rotted out number boards or totally missing ones on the R-21/22 cars in the IRT.
I had at one time used a set for my address where I live. The landlord was a retired motorman and got hoot out of it. The wife didn't though. Maybe someone noticed it? 3028 under the El in Astoria?
Well for the first time, a southern (IND-BMT) shop has broken the 200,000 mile MDBF barrier. The numbers are not final but when the dust settles, Concourse Shop will have an MDBF for December of over 203,000 miles. Best of all it was done with the much malignedR-68
Congratuations, Steve.
But I'll bet it did take a looonnnng time for those cars to chug their way the 200,000 mark.
Rim Shot
Seriously Steve, congratuations. It's nice to here from a TA employee who is proud of the work he does !
Mr t__:^)
How was this figure calculated?
MDBF is the milage accumulated by the fleet for the month of December (greater than 1.6 million miles) divided by delays charged to Car Equipment for the month (8).
Is the fleet mileage in car-miles?
You can look at this way. For example, Concourse Yard has 200 R-68s. Each R-68 car traveled 8,000 miles last December. Therefore,
Fleet mileage= 200 cars * 8,000 miles/car = 1,600,000 miles
If there were 8 failures during December,
MDBF= 1,600,000 miles/8 failures = 200,000 miles/failure
Chaohwa
Thank you, that certainly cleared up the calculation.
This is certainly a vast improvement from the dark days when that figure was less than 20,000 miles. However, I'm troubled by one seeming paradox. I would have thought that if the distance between failures improved by an order of magnitude, then the percentage of trains that was available for service should also increase. However, this figure has remained at 85% throughout.
I can think of several explanations seeming contradiction. However, I would appreciate hearing from someone with first hand knowledge.
Not necessarilly so for two reasons. First, the greatest single reason for the increase in the fleet's performance is maintenance. If you maintain it before it breaks down, it will likely not break down. This is borne out by the fact that the vast majority of the failures on the Concourse fleet are component failures and not due to wear and mis-adjustment. The second reason is that with 4-car links, if one car goes out of service, so do its 3 mates. This will normally keep your spare factor lower and your 'cars unavailable for service' higher. My spare factor is 13% with the 4 car units.
In 1980, MDBF was 6,000 miles!
--Mark
LOL. I heard that some R16's in 1980 had MDBF's in the hundreds of miles.
There were also some R-10s which had a MBDF in the hundreds.
From what I gather the R68's were not delivered until the late 1980's. And they were run as single units. Wasn't the MDBF around 60,000 miles?
Please correct me, if my memory is hazy.
For the late 1980s, I'd say a MDBF of 60K sounds right.
--Mark
In 1994, when I moved to the Concourse yard, the R-68 MDBF was around 30,000 miles.
Thanks. Is it also possible to find out the average number of miles travelled by each car? I know Mr. Chen posted a figure of 8000 miles. Is this a realistic figure or was it used to conveniently demonstrate the MDBF computation? Also is there a great deal of variability for this figure (mean distance travelled) between the years and between cars of differing types?
Cars of the same fleet may have huge variations in the distance traveled in a year. Factors such as long term repairs and repeat failures contribute to the inequities. Therefore, it stands to reason that different shops with different lines and different serviceneeds all contribute to non-uniform milage for different car fleets too.
One problem that I have with the MDBF metric whose calculation was described by Mr. Chen is that it is too easy to misapply. It is the figure for a single car. However, NYCT does not run single cars. They run multiple car units.
It is fairly easy to approximate MDBF for a multiple car unit, if the Mean Distance Travelled by the individual cars is much smaller than their MDBF. The relation ship is:
MDBF(n) = MDBF(1)/n
where MBDF(n) is the MDBF for an n car unit and MDBF(1) is the MDBF for a single car.
I found a post that David Pirmann made to the nyc.transit group in Oct 1997. It shows various fleet MDBF figures between 1994 and 1997. It confirms your figure of 30,000 (May 94) and my recollection of 60,000 (Jun 97). The 12 month Jul 97 figures show figures of 80,000 and 94,000 for the R68 and R38 respectively. Question: which would have been the more reliable 600 foot train on average - one composed R68's or one composed of R38's? The answer is that an 8 car train of R68's would have a MDBF of 10,000 whereas 10 car train of R38's would have a MDBF of 9,400. The choice would be the R68's even though the their individual car MDBF figure is greater than the R38's.
A similar problem comes in with the use of link bars and how they are used. They are really a 4 car unit and should be treated as such. This means that the 200,000 MDBF figure should be restated as 50,000. This does not make any difference for the calculation of a train's MDBF. It is 25,000 whether it is calculated as 25000/2 or 200000/8.
The lower figure is however a much more realistic measure of rail car availability. Indeed, a comparison with the 1997 single unit figures shows that MDBF has decreased from 80,000 to 50,000! Such a decrease is more consistent with the continued car shortage than a 250% increase of in the single unit figure.
As Disraeli said: "there are lies, damn lies and statistics." Moreover, it is fairly easy to deceive oneself unintentionally. There are several other statistics that are required to give a true picture of the car fleet's maintenance. The single MDBF statistic is not sufficient and can be misleading.
Well said, Stephen - I've been trying to make sense of this and hadn't been able to, just had a nagging feeling that somewhere, somehow there was some funky math going on that made things look better than they were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You are making things too complicated, even for the nit-picker sociaty. MDBF is based on fleet miles. If 10 cars run 100 miles, that's 1,000 car/miles. This is a universally accepted way to calculate MDBF. If I understand what you are saying, a married pair, a 4-car unit and a 5-car unit traveling that same 100 miles would accrue just 100 miles. This makes absolutely no sense as it gives no legitimate basis for comparison. In Tokyo, they use solid 10 car consists. Would you compare them mile for mile with a pair of R-32s? I think that you need to keep in mind that MDBF is mearly a ratio and a means of comparison. Your way would defeat the comparison. However, if you don't like the way MDBF is calculated, feel free to keep your own statistics....
A failure for a system is a failure for any of its components. What is the MDBF for a system?
If you take a system that is composed if 10 identical units - each with a MDBF of 200,000 miles then the MDBF for the system is 20,000 miles.
This allows you to compare similar systems (trains) each composed of identical units (cars) but different in number and type. Thus, you can calculate the MDBF for a 10 car train of R32's, and 8 car train of R68's and a dedicated 10 car train on the Ginza Line.
Link bars and component sharing between cars have been used as a means for increasing individual car MDBF. This has eliminated coupler failures and fewer parts usually mean fewer failures. If there were no penalty for such a stategy, then you would abandon MU operation and go back to a locomotive and coaches.
There is a penalty. The penalty is that when a failure does occur it takes out 2, 4, 5 or 10 cars - depending how many are linked together. This means that there will be fewer cars available than if the failure took out only a single car. Can you calculate how much greater the MDBF figures for a 2, 4 or 5 car units must be over single units to insure the same availability? Of course, you use the same methodology. A 4-car unit must have at least 4 times the MDBF as a single unit for equivalent availability performance.
Using the 1997 MDBF figure of 80,000 for the single unit R68's this means that you will need to improve to a MDBF to at least 320,000 miles before you will start to see any increase in availability. It also means that the new R142's had better have a MDBF of at least 2.5 times greater than the redbirds they are replacing.
There are two important factors that influence availability: mean time to failure (MTTF) and mean time to replacement/repair (MTTR). MTTF is simply the MDBF divided by the average number of miles travelled per car. The most important thing is that the MTTR be less than the MTTF, otherwise more cars will be lost than are being returned to service. This is another potential reason for car shortages. It is hoped that the onboard computer systems will significantly shorten the R142's MTTR.
You are absolutely correct. It's the transit industry around the world that's incorrect.
You are absolutely correct. It's the transit industry around the world that's incorrect.
Transit industry statistics is to statistics as military justice is to justice?
Is there any possibility that the new trains will, after the bugs are out, bring down the number of required spares?
Failures in service are bad, but once MDBF gets high enough, you begin to run into diminishing returns. The question then becomes, can you keep the same MDBF with fewer spares through faster maintenance or off peak maintenance.
At $22 million per train, hopefully divided over 30+ years, plus interest, every extra train you need for a given level of service adds significantly to costs. Conversely, if you figure the money is fixed and the service vary, cutting the number of spares is a way to increase service, as long as MDBF does not rise.
I don't foresee any remarkable decrease in spare factors. Right now, the redbirds are single cars or married pairs. The R-142s will be 3, 4 or 5 car units. Based on that fact alone, more spares will be required even if the new cars more reliable than those that they replace.
(Share of spares may increase)
Maybe the reducing the spare factor needs to be a goal. It certainly affects cost/extent of service. High MDBF is just half the story.
Reminds me of the old Fisher Body plant my Grandmother worked at in Tarrytown. The goals was to produce as many cars as possible. So you ended up with a huge parking lot full of screwed up cars, with dozens of mechanics trying to fix them (many of which had come back from angry customers), but that didn't count against productivity.
Same thing here. Everyone knows about MDBF. Not many think about the cost of having enough trains to have some out of service at rush hour.
The alternative is to do the bulk of the maintenance during the non-commission hours. However, conventional wisdom ses it otherwise. The current path for scheduled maintenance is:
AM tour - inspect the car and make minor repairs.
PM tour - make moderate repairs.
Midnight tour - Finish repairs & heavy cleaning of cars.
AM tour - ready for service.
Therefore, the conventional thought is 24 hours minimum for a scheduled inspection. (There are variations in every shop) If we were to start after the PM rush, it would still take 24 hours to turn the car around. Since the 3 functions tend to interfere with each other, combining functions to speed the process is not practical. That leaves the other option - double the manpower and cut the time to make repairs and perform 'level one cleaning'.
Another consideration is seniority. If inspections were done 7PM - 3 AM, you would end up with your least experienced car inspectors doing the most critical maintenance function - the inspection. I don't necessarilly think this is bad but I'm in the minority here.
Another consideration is if the railroad goes into the crapper during the PM rush hour, you may lose your inspections to 'the needs of service'. They may be needed for just one more trip and return 3 hours later.
So you can either pay with adequate spares or you can pay with additional manpower and still may not get what you want. Anyone have any thoughts?
OK so we know CED is well run and well staffed. Look what has been done with the R-68.
Now. CAN SOMEONE TAKE THAT SAME ATTITUDE AND BRING IT TO RTO!
The D line has very good management. They have had 100% AM throughputs for ten consecutive weeks. Of course, some credit goes to the equipment but the real credit goes to the Line Supt. (PM) and his staff (PS, RC, & PC). PM and I worked together on the E line way back when and we have always worked well together. Sounds like you need to come north for a bit.
We have a great PM Deputy Supt. on the No.6 Line. He seems like the only one who pays attention the Model board at Grand Central and knows why the trains run late. Everyone else just don't get it.
Hard to fault the way the trains are run. Aside from some unpleasantness in early December, they pretty much arrive. I remember the bad old days.
Which leads me the spate of articles on how bad the LIRR is some months back. The Times included without comparison several excuses as to why the LIRR works less well (and covers a lower share of its operating costs) than MetroNorth. The cars are almost 30 years old. Its a complicated system where there are lots of routes that converge on Jamaica and then diverge. Etc. Etc.
I couldn't help comparing that with the subway, with cars pushing 40 years old betting 70,000 MDBF and dozens of trains converging, diverging, and converging with other trains.
So what is the difference here -- management quality or labor unions. And if the unions don't want to give credit to the management, but say that the LIRR labor situation is what they would prefer, is that what riders could expect if the TWU had its way?
Does seem like our T/O friend needs some "New Directions" to drive his train to
Mr t__:^)
Well I can't comment there because I haven't worked the D since January of 1998. The E I can comment on.
Although it's well run, my gripes aren't with the low level management who run the day to day things. It's with the senior management that sets policy and writes timetables and work programs.
Dealing with the PC of a poorly designed terminal for the amount of trains run, the PM dispatcher and Supt. do very well. Working with these people is both easy and rewarding.
Working the line is a pleasure as I like the E and the R-32.
The work programs are another story.
Squeezing into a ten hour day four trips is mind numbing. What's wrong with three in eight? I'll tell you why: if you have four crews doing three trips each, for twelve trips. Add another trip to have four each. Now three crews does the work of four. Saves money. Sure you pay each crew an additonal two hours. But that's six man hours instead of eight. Cost effective, productivity.
BLOOD MONEY. This runs people into the ground and will eventually cause an accident. To save two hours. I can see the need for economy but sometimes it goes too far.
We don't help ourselves when these are the first jobs to go in the pick.
It seems that something good happens wherever Steve goes. R-46s had good performace when Steve was in Jamaica Yard. Now R-68s.
BTW, are some Concourse R-68s going to suppliment B line during February when C line is shut down?
Chaohwa
Well yeah, but they will always be hippos, no matter how reliable they are. LOL
Seriously this is a testemant to how much value preventative maintenance is to a subway car. If this keeps up, we migh be cursing the hippos for another 40 years.
Way to go!
Now if only the people who ride the D line would appreciate it.
They could start by CLEANING UP AFTER THEMSELVES! The cars sure do get dirty!
--Mark
It figures that the car with the highest MDBF also has the lowest MPH!
Those are the Batch I R68s (the Jeumont-Schneider cars), correct.
Congratulations on your remarkable achievement. Can you make some of your magic rub off elsewhere?
Wayne
Thank you Wayne. The magic is training, hard work and attention to detail. There are 3 other managers here who share that philosophy.
I just returned home from celebrating the millennium at Walt Disney
World in Florida, and while there, I took several rides on their
monorail system that connects Magic Kingdom with EPCOT. I've noticed
that their, and other (enclosed) monorail trains very much resemble
subway/elevated trains. Since monorails are very common at many theme
parks, and are also found at airports, zoos, and certain attractions,
would they be classified as amusement rides, or transit vehicles/
systems?
Ahh! A new and interesting RELATED topic for a change.
Having visited Las Vegas not long ago I posted something similar.
I have not been to DisneyWorld, but from what I have heard and seen about the monorail system, it is a rapid transit system, but technically not related to a municipal NYC subway-type system. Specifically because the Disney Monorail runs within the confines of the park, it is more like a shuttle service serving Disney's own needs, without addressing the commuting possiblities of those who live and work OUTSIDE of the DisneyWorld "universe".
The City of Las Vegas proposed an interesting Monorail question to two major casinos: the city realizes that their limited bus service to the new Vegas Strip is inadequate. They want the assistance of MGM Grand and Bally's (the co-owners of the current Monorail that runs between the two hotels) to build an extension of the line that would terminate in the downtown area of Vegas. The hotels don't seem interested, even though in the long-term they would benefit by getting 'day rollers' (the afterwork crowd and downtown residents) to patronize their establishments along with the regular assortment of tourists.
Have you heard anything about Disney being approached by the City of Orlando to expand the Monorail into a municipal transit system? I doubt it, since Disney is a very self-serving company that is not traditionally into involving itself with outside interests.
Doug aka BMTman
Have you heard anything about Disney being approached by the City of Orlando to expand the Monorail into a municipal transit system? I doubt it, since Disney is a very self-serving company that is not traditionally into involving itself with outside interests.
Doubtful that this would ever be feasible. As you allude to, Disney is one of the most greedy, self-serving corporations the world has ever seen. If the idea doesn't benefit their bottom line, forget about it. (I put Disney into the same category of predator corporations as Wal-Mart, and not a dime of my money will ever go toward their coffers if I can avoid it.)
Also, downtown Orlando is a considerable distance away from Disney World (seemed like at least 10 miles or so the one time I was there), and downtown Orlando wouldn't be worth connecting to anyway. What they call "downtown" in Orlando is little more than a small collection of dull office buildings and parking garages. All the sophistication and character of a suburban office park, minus the manicured lawns.
If Disney wanted to connect their monorails to anything outside its own little fascist empire, then a connection to the Orlando Airport would make the most sense. (Actually, the airport itself even has a nifty little people mover system that connects the main terminal with the gate concourses.)
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
While I was in Florida, I picked up a map of the Orlando area, and it
shows a proposed light rail line that would extend from just north of
downtown, through the International Drive corridor, to at least Sea
World, with possible future extensions to the Disney World resorts.
Because of all the attractions in the Orlando area, I feel that a
good mass transit system is definitely needed, whether it is in the
form of light rail, heavy rail (subway), or monorail.
I haven't been to Disney in years but their Monorail could not operate publicly if you ask me. There are no emergancy catwalks on the system anywhere (this is when I was there 10 years or so ago). I beleive that would be a requirement for Public Transit.
There are no emergency catwalks on the system anywhere (this is when I was there 10 years or so ago).
I was there last September. This is still true.
--Mark
the joke is on us here in LOST ANGELES come ( los angele rail system MR WILLIE s joke , )
here and ride the so called ''light rail' ha!! ha!! ha!!
TRY IT YOU WONT LIKE IT !!!! but what do i know?? i like rail fan windows !!!!!
I would not consider placing Light Rail on the same scale as heavy rail or commuter rail (or even monorails). As far as I know, Light Rail is one car operation; its capacity is the same as that of a bus. In some places, like Philadelphia's subway surface lines, it works well. That is because it takes 5 different lines and puts them into one tunnel. But if only one or two branches will exist to this so called Orlando or Lost Angeles line, then LRT is a joke. The only real transit for such a line would be heavy rail, or some kind of modified commuter rail, if the planners are too cheap to grade seperate it.
Light rail is not just one-car operation - take a look at Baltimore, St. Louis, or San Diego, among others. They are multi-car trains of light rail vehicles. Light rail simply refers to the type of car construction and its intended operation, which can be mixed-use or even entirely in the streets, and typically low/no platform, as opposed to heavy rail transit, which is normally 100% private right-of-way and, in the modern era, normally high-platform. Heavy rail could operate on the same tracks as freight; light rail would not ordinarily be permitted to do so at the same time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse