Does Kawasaki have a web site? I don't know a whole lot about the comp., and I'd like to learn. How long have they been in the transit industry?
The name of the company is "Kawasaki Heavy Industries Limited" not "Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc.". The web site is
http:\\www.khi.co.jp\
Having worked for them in the past, I can tell you. They
have an excellent quality control program. They used to
produce some of the finast rolling stock in America. Far
superior to Bombardier.
But they got cheap. In order to keep costs down, KHI never
actually employed it's work force. They were all temp
workers for manpower groups. When TWU tried to organize
the labor, KHI retaliated and cancelled their contracts
with the various manpower agents and hired new ones. This
has happened twice to date and because of this they have incurred tremendous cost overuns and labor difficulty. All of their orders are way behind schedule, and The Long Island Rail Road has already stated they will not order their new MU's from KHI.
That leaves the LIRR with the choice of either Bombardier or AdTranz. Some choice! The Rock or the Hard Place. Nobody else seems to be in the business except maybe Breda Ferroviare Construzzione SpA of Italy.
Wayne
Never worked for Breda, but I worked with guys who did. No one had anything nice to say. I did work for ABB Traction, which is now AdTranz. They are pretty good. The FL9 is a damn fine engine. THEY have some maintainence issues, yes. But don't judge the entire company for that. Arrow III and ALP-44, two outstanding orders I was proud to have worked on. Judge on that as well.
I can't deny that Bombardier turnned out a fine fleet of R62A's. But now their problems at the upstate plant with the local labor raise questions. Companies do change. They try and cut corners, save money. I've read some posts about where AdTranz was cited for turning out less-than-stellar equipment - people keep griping about the Philadelphia M-4s. There seem to be a lot of variables. You're right - you have to go on a case-by-case basis.
Wayne
The LIRR already went with Bombardier. THe story made Railnews in the July issue, I believe.
-Hank
For those of you with a computer equipped with a sound board, and able to play MP3 files:
http://EL-List.Railfan.net/archives/mu.mp3
That's a few minute long file of a lacawanna MU train approaching, stopping, making cool compressor / air sounds, then pulling out. Noisy motors. I found headphones, or your parent's stereo system =) worked best for this file.
The compressor is somewhat modern type. Takes a few seconds to get up to speed!! Also note the MG, and contactor oises.
BTW - are those AMUE brakes?
Actually, if you go to www.stevek.com, I have, on a page with some New York Days pictures, a quicktime movie (with sound) of Branford's Hi-V Lo-V train passing the camera at trackside. The noises are there, and all.
The NYCT web site reports normal service back on J,M,Z as of 5 am today, Wed, Sept. 1.
Someone in the field confirm?
So much for NY1's "exclusive."
At Bway/East NY this morning there was not the overcrowding on the A train that has been the norm for the past four months, so I would assume that things are "back to normal".
BTW, I wonder if Todd are any of the SubTalkers did a "grand re-opening-first-over-the-bridge" inaugural run? Let us know.
Doug aka BMTman
It must be up an running because I've heard nothing but 8 car J trains rumble by my house here in Queens since 6AM.
Not that I'm aware of, Doug. Being in the middle of the week, it was out of the question for me! But I'll be in NYC this weekend, and perhaps I'll take a quick ride over Willy between my reports on the :08s!
Will the weekend Fulton St. service pattern remain the same?
I didn't see anything about rescinding A express service in the advisories.
Weekend A express service on Fulton St. is a permanent service change unaffected by the re-opening of the Willy B.
Will the expanded L service be continued now that the J/Z can resume normal service?
I should ask the station manager on my return trip tomorrow. I would suspect that the expanded 2-5 minute leaway between trains will dissappear once things get going full-steam over the Willy B.
Doug aka BMTman
Since that was my normal route, I went back to that way today. It's pretty nice, and the bridge itself was a smooth ride, kind of like welded rail. It was just slower than I thought(I thought that with all new structure and signals, it would be faster), especially with the grade timers on the Manhattan bound descent. THe curve over Roebling is not only slightly gentler, but there is a little more space between the tracks (couldn't tell from the ground.)--enough to have yellow fibreglass walkway. So as I've been saying, the barrier to 75 foot cars at thatt point should be over.
They are still dismantling the bridge to the special exit at Essex, so all Queens bound trains have to use the middle track.
All the extra shuttle buses are still sitting in the SW corner of the plaza. And CNG LF Flyer 803 was sitting next to them! (no depot sticker) I wonder what this is for. 3000's are still running on other FP routes, and I saw one slant 40 still on the M
The discussion of the "next-to-last grade crossing" (on the Norton's Point L line, 1919) got me to wondering whether there are people around who have first hand memories of elevated trains on that line. Someone now is his/her 80's might have such a memory.
So my question here is: "What is your oldest memory that you can put a date on of transit?"
For example, I have clear memories of certain features of the Flatbush Avenue trolley. The trolley was discontinued 3/5/51, so I can say my earliest memories of transit as no later than March 1951.
What's yours? I wonder who on this board has the oldest datable memory?
I have memories of riding the Jamaica Ave. el to 168th St to go shopping for clothes as I started kindergarden in 1977. Since the line closed on 9/9, I must assume this was August 77.
I also have an even older memory of riding an R7-R9 car on that line, but I cannot date it. I was very young and all I remember was seeing an exposed fan on the ceiling.
My father actually remembers Lexington Ave. el service on the Jamaica Ave. line!
I was born in 1953 and I can remember the trackless trolley buses in Brooklyn as a small pre-school child. It had a trolley pole on the roof to get its electricity but had rubber tires and I assume a steering wheel. I always wondered if I was just imagining it until I saw a picture of one in 1960 in the book "New York Transit Memories" by Harold Smith. I knew the author was right about the year because there's a Volkswagon bus next to it and they came out in 1959 or '60. I remember riding on BMT standards on the Sea Beach with my grandmother, and also watching the Sea Beach trains from the 20th Av overpass before they cemented in the holes.I remember my dad taking me & my brother to the Polo Grounds to see the Mets (before Shea) taking the "E" from Jamaica where he parked (drove from LI) to 7Av and then the "D" to the Polo Grounds (the stop before Yankee Sta) I remember grade crossings on 106/107 in Hicksville.I cannot remember what I ate for lunch yesterday!!!
I enjoyed riding the Lo-V's and the R-1's when I started riding transit. Does anyone remember riding the Hi-V's and Forney Steam Dummy trains. How about the Composites or Gibbs Hi-V's?
I first encountered the term "subway" in Richard Scary's (sp) Best Word Book Ever. If you'ever seen this book, you know what I mean. Lots of pictures with words for individual parts or items. Later on, I saw a staircase descending from the street in Mishawaka, IN and asked my father if that was a subway entrance. My father said no, there are no subways in Mishawaka or South Band, but that Chicago had a couple of lines and that New York had many.
Fast forward to July 21, 1965. That's when my subway baptism occurred. The rest is history. R-10s on the A. R-27/30s and R-32s on the Southern Division. BMT standards on the Canarsie.
The more I think about it, my oldest memory of transit predates my subway initiation by two years. I remember seeing PCCs and trolley buses in Toronto in 1963.
The more I think about it, my oldest memory of transit predates my subway initiation by two years. I remember seeing PCCs and trolley buses in Toronto in 1963.
Here we go again, even further back in time. Buses in South Bend in 1960 or 1961.
The year was 1955, I was only 4 years old and was with my parents on our way home from the dentist. (on Eastern Pkwy in Bklyn.), we were on the New Lots Ave. bound upper platform (I can still see the penny gum machines) of the Nostrand Ave station. We saw two unusually BRIGHT headlights at the famous "X over switch. My father, who was a constuction flagman, said something that to this day I recall, "it must be one of the new trains".
Vague memories of electric buses on Flushing Avenue, near Carlton Avenue. This had to be 1959 when I was just 3 years old because my family moved from that area in early 1960.
I remember riding on a trolley on Coney Island Avenue; I was quite young, but since I don't know when that service was eliminated, I can't say how long ago that occurred. I can also vaguely recall Culver line trains on the 4th Avenue line.
Coney Island Avenue quit in 1955. Culver-Nassau (truncated to Ditmas Ave.) lasted until 1957, I believe.
9/1/99
As stated in an earlier posting "Do you remember",Low'v's at about 6 or 7 years of age was my first memory. After that,trolleybuses making the turn at Flatbush Ave and Empire Blvd. I was fascinated at the overhead wirework and occasional sparking. I was equally impressed by the quiet ride and humming sound I heard. Ah yes! Good old Brooklyn!!
Bill Newkirk
I certainly can't go that far back, but I remember riding the 15 trolley during a particularly hot summer day(I'm pretty sure it was 1989).
It was a PCC, which I always liked getting on but found kind of spooky since they weren't as bright inside as the LRV's are.
For the earliest specific date, I remember riding what I think was R1 eqpt on June 5, 1960. It was my birthday and my parents drove in from Huntington to 179th Street to take the subway in to the Museum of Natural History and Chinatown. I think we road the F train as my Dad seemed to prefer the F over the E. Back then, the F ran express from 179 inbound and the E only ran express after Continental Ave.
I think we changed for the E at Lex and the A at 42nd street.
Other dates - I remember riding the Monorail first day the New York World's Fair opened in 1963.
My first ride on a BMT Standard came in the Sumnmer of '66 shortly before they were retired. I rode the Canarsie line end to end as part of a plan to cover all the BMT lines in one day.
Also rode the Q cars on the Myrtle same day. I was in awe of those dinosaurs.
Ahhh --the good old days!!
The last BMT standards were retired in August of 1969. I rode them regularly on the Canarsie line from 1967 until then.
It's funny how many people prefer the F over the E. I know I do.
I have an early memory of riding a Chicago & West Towns trolley car to Brookfield Zoo in the western suburbs of Chicago. This is reasonably datable; the line was discontinued on April 4, 1948, when I was 14 months old.
(Also memories of the 1948-49 Chicago Railroad Fair, by the way.)
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Riding Lo-V's and World's Fair Steinways on the 3rd Avenue EL in the Bronx in the 1960's. Riding the AB Standards on the Canarsie Line in 1968 and 1969. Riding the Q cars on the Myrtle Avenue El in 1968 and 1970. Riding the R1 through R9 on the IND in the 1960's and early 1970's. Riding the Lo-V's on an ERA Fan Trip in Sept of 1971. Riding the D Types on a fan trip in 1972.
I wish I could haven ridden the 3rd Avenue EL in Manhattan and over the Brooklyn Bridge from Park Row to Sands Street to Adams Street and Bridge Street stations. What a joy it must of been for those who did.
Born in 1937, I probably rode the Broadway-7th Avenue express to and from Marble Hill before this memory item, around age 5: riding the front car of a Second Avenue El train and having the tracks curve onto 23rd Street to continue south over First Avenue. I suspect that the train had crossed the Queensborough Bridge, as the route from 129th Street was closed earlier, maybe due to the imminent construction of the Second Avenue Subway! One lesson from this: A Second Avenue subway ought bend east to better serve the Lower East Side on the way to South Ferry.
I remember riding the Lo-V's on the Jerome Ave. line. One time I got on the first car (with my parents) and noticed the front where the motorman was was an "open platform". I wanted to ride up there and watch but was told it was not allowed.
Was the Flatbush Avenue trolley number 41? What were the terminii?
My oldest memory: Riding the R-46s on the F line from Coney Island, often to Jay Street just as a joy ride. I remember the Stillwell Station, with the ramps and the dark vast mezzanine (which was even more vast if you're that small) I remember the seats, and the chimes, (or I just think I do, because it's still there) but not the blue stripe. I also remember R-32s on the Brighton Beach El and some graffiti (the two are unrelated). Let's not forget the Brighton M and the double letter trains! I also CLEARLY remember riding on the south side of the Manh. bridge. I didn't know it then, but it's obvious.
The date, circa 1986-7. Fare: 90 cents to $1.00.
Was the Flatbush Avenue trolley number 41? What were the terminii?
Flatbush was 41. The terminii at the end were close to the same as today. A loop on the west side of Flatbush Avenue between T and U (the signs said Avenue U, but there was essentially nothing there at the time--a rural crossroads) and a branch also went to 71st and Island Avenue.
At the north end, in my memory, it went to Parkes Cadman Plaza, near the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge. It had a kind of loop there, too, I seem to recall.
The neatest feature of the line for me was that it ran on a sort of reservation along the east side of Grand Army Plaza (both directions).
After the 1940 reroutes, the Flatbush Avenue trolley used Livingston Street and went around the block near Borough Hall--all the streetcar routes had been removed from Fulton Street. Even the DeKalb Avenue trolley turned at Albee Square instead of running into Fulton and routes like Putnam and Third Avenue were bus-tified.
Flatbush Avenue never had trolleys with route numbers (only the PCCs carried numbers, if memory serves) and I'm not certain that '41' was the original route number for the trolleys. It was the bus route number, but the BQT had duplicate numbers for trolleys and buses--an '8' on a bus was 18th Avenue but was Church or Church-Gravesend (McDonald) on a trolley.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The trolleys did have route numbers, though the pre-PCCs did not carry them.
For, as you alluded to, Church was 8 (and Gravesend-Church was 13) although these were both changed to 35 post-BMT. But, AFAIK, no pre-PCC equipment carried these numbers.
This (the 2 numbers for the Church Ave. Line) raises an interesting trivia: how many Brooklyn trolley lines closed on the last day, 10/31/56? Most would say two: 35-Church and 50-MacDonald. But both branches of Church closed that day: what was 8-Church and 13-Gravesend-Church. So did three close that day?
My records show Flatbush was 41 both bus and trolley, but the 8000s that ran on the line didn't carry the number.
Paul Matus is right about pre-unification BQT streetcar route numbers, as I mentioned; it would be nice to see a complete list of them--I can't remember when I last saw one. It's strange that the BRT/BMT/BQT never developed any kind of roof-mounted route number signs like San Francisco or Cleveland, for example.
You could make the case that three lines closed on Halloween of 1956 and even I wouldn't argue about it. It depends on how you count, but I think officially 35-Church was a single line--were operators simply assigned to "Church" or to "39th" or "McDonald"?
Flatbush ran 6000s to the end, not 8000s. The 8000s were double-ended and Flatbush ran single-ended cars. I always thought it an interesting coincidence (or deliberate choice) that the heavy Triplexes on the subway and the heavy streetcars, all delivered arond the same time, were both numbered in the 6000s.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I seem to recall, way back when, a trolley motorman on Church telling me that his job involved alternating trips to 16th and 1st Avenues. Some runs also ended at Church & MacDonald but those may only have been depot run-offs.
For some reason I had though Church was 6000s and Flatbush 8000s, but maybe I was thinking of 8000s on Ocean, a line I have only vague memories of. Also, curiously, I have no distinct memory of anything but PCCs on Church, even though I lived half a block away and was almost 11 whenthe line quit.
BTW, the 6000 series buses were also big impressive heavyweights. They were the big air suspension Macks out of Ulmer Park which went into service at the same time the last trolleys went. They operated, for example, on B1-Manhattan Beach, B3-Avenue U, B6-Bay Parkway/Avenue J and B8-18th Foster. Also all over Staten Island. Me and a friend of mine nicknamed them "Triplex" buses for their heaviness and number series. They were a lot of fun to ride.
Cleveland never had roof mounted route numbers. The large numbers on the 4000 series Witts and the Articulated 5000's were the run (or in some system's term: block) numbers. Took some getting used to, especially if you came from a system that had route numbers. Cleveland used route names, like Toronto until recently. Route numbers didn't come into use until the CTS TT and bus era.
Thanks for the Cleveland correction. Peter Witt and his people were far ahead of their time with the large signs--I guess I never thought the numbers were anything other than route numbers. Some new buses have large signs that are reminiscent of the Cleveland cars in pictures I've seen.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
This is going to date me, I really can't tell which came first.
Riding in my uncle's car and seeing the Queensborough Bridge Trolley.
Riding Gate Cars on IRT Rt 9 Dyre Av Local
Riding MUDC's on 3 Av El from 149 St to 42 St right after Hurricane Hazel (1954?)
Riding the NYC West Shore from Weehawken to Fort Montgomery in 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The first extended trip on the subway came on July 27, 1963 - Flatbush Avenue (actually, Newkirk), all the way up to Dyre Avenue via the 7th Avenue line. I was eight (almost nine) at the time.
I do remember riding on PCC Trolleys in Washington DC as a four-to-five-year old. My Grandmother lived one block from the #42 Trolley and we used it to get to "F" Street downtown.
I also remember riding on the IRT from Newkirk to Borough Hall as a very young child. Also, a ride or two on the Nassau Loop from Court to Chambers, changing there for the Jamaica #15, again, as maybe a six-year-old.
My first SOLO with permission on the subway came on January 28, 1969, at the age 14. I went from Atlantic Avenue to Church Avenue on the IRT. On April 10, 1966 (Easter Sunday), I had an unintended solo on the Broadway BMT - I became separated from my parents and Grandmother at 49th Street. A policeman came along, I told him where Grandmother lived, and we took a "QB" train out of there (it was an R32). The policeman stayed on the train with me. At De Kalb Avenue, I saw my Father on the platform and we got off. The policeman assured him that all was well. Dad was very grateful and very relieved. We then got on the "RR" by mistake and had to go down to 9th Street to cross over and come back to De Kalb, walking through the 4th Avenue station in the process.
Wayne
Since Wayne-Mr.SlantR40 brought up his first SOLO I'll mention mine. (I mentioned my oldest memories earlier in the thread.) My Grandmother lived near the Newkirk IRT station (coincidence, Wayne?) and whenever I stayed there we took public transit. I always begged her to let me ride by myself and one day when I was about 10 or 11 ('63,'64) she let me stay on the one station to Flatbush and back after she got off. I felt like a real adult!! Later that same year I took the bus to Hempstead, (I lived in East Meadow about 4 mi away, still do) walked one stop to Country Life Press and took the train back to Hempstead.(an MU) The conductor laughed when I tried to pay and let me ride for free.
First solo ride was from Lexington Avenue on the RR, all the way out to Beechhurst on the Q15.
I was 9, it was 1967. My mom worked in midtown, I went in with her in the morning. We had lunch and then she put me on the train at Lexington Avenue, I changed at QBP to the 7 Express, rode to Main Street, and then got right on the bus.
Life was never the same since!!!
July 27, 1963:
Grandma lived at 2015 Dorchester Road, at the corner of East 21st Street. We had our pick of subway stations - Cortelyou Road north and west, Newkirk Avenue south and west, Newkirk IRT south and east. IIRC Dad and I walked over from Dorchester to Newkirk IRT because he wanted to check up on two former residences - 2511 Newkirk Avenue (my first home) and 518 East 28th Street (Mom's childhood home). Then we took our ride. We changed for the BMT on the way back from the Bronx at Times Square and took the "QB" (an R27) back to Beverly Road.
Wayne
Hmmm. January 28 is my sister's birthday. She turned 10 in 1969. I remember April 10, 1966 as well - we saw The Singing Nun (with Ricardo Montalban playing a priest) in South Bend. One year and one week later, we moved to New Jersey.
Anyway, my first solo ride was in March of 1968 on a JJ from Elderts Lane to 168th St. and back. We went to a recital concert at Franklin K. Lane HS (Karl B's alma mater) given by a Lithuanian family which was supposed to be the next Von Trapp Family Singers, and I talked my folks into letting me go for a ride by myself. I missed the first half of the program and got back during intermission, and started dropping hints that I'd like to take another ride, but my mother said no more today. Afterwards, she thought the first half of the program was better than the second half. The recital didn't receive very good reviews, and that family was never heard from again.
Yeaaaay!!!!My Alma Mater!! Isn't it awful, I can't even remember the school song, if there was one. I guess since it was 45 plus years ago I can be excused. Funny thing though, I remember the school song from junior high.
Seriously Steve, If you had been 20 years earlier, you would have seen a dozen or more open platform gate cars laid up for the weekend on the center track at 111th St. Too Bad!!
Well, as a matter of fact, I did see a train of BMT standards laid up at either 111th or 160th Sts which were signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn local. While I also remember seeing Q cars on Myrtle Ave. (not on that same day), I never rode on them.
Our high school in Jersey had both a fight song (Panthers March On) whose words I never knew and an alma mater (Hail, Pequannock) whose words I still remember today. Cheshire High in Connecticut was another story. We used the old NFL theme called Confidence as our fight song, but had no alma mater. At UConn, it was UConn Husky with very redundant lyrics and Old Connecticut, respectively.
My first solo ride was Wednesday, August 21, 1996 on the A, C, or E train to West Fourth Street then transfer to a 6 Ave express to Rockefeller Center. My first solo transit ride of any kind was on Monday, May 2, 1994 on the B5 (R.I.P) bus between New York Avenue and West 7/8 Streets (N line station). The first transit in another city that I rode was the D.C. Metro in 1991 or the Disney Monorail in June 1989 (If you consider Disney to be transit). The first FRA regulated railroad that I rode on was the PATH in 1997 and the first REAL railroad I rode on was the LIRR in January of 1999 (I can look up the exact date, but I wont bother). The latter two were both solo. The first time I rode a FRA RR accompanied (make it stop!) was the SIR in the Winter of 1997/8 (it was cold, I believe 1998 though). That's enough for my railbiography.
first memory of transit is pay a .19 two zone to go "downtown newark" from irvington. a one zone was .14. went to penn station to watch the big trains go by, to bad i didn't know they going.
I forgot international transit! I've only ridden on the Caracas Metro from Capitolio to I station I don't remember (I would need to check a map). And the only transit bus (farebox) I've ridden outside of NYC or Nassau County was the AMA/MBA bus in San Juan, PR. Now then there's the RTSs on the free Disney system in March 1996 (during Spring break). As for LR, the first time was Wednesday, June 30 1999 on the Boston Green Line.
Well, it's far from being my oldest memory of transit, but since we're getting onto the subject of international transit I rode streetcars and the subway in Toronto in the early '60s, Montreal in 1967, and the entire Barcelona Metro as it existed in 1972-73, including being on the first revenue train to operate on what was then known as Linea IV.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first taste of international transit came on May 28, 1967 at Expo 67 on the now-defunct Expo Express. Purists may say this doesn't count, since it was limited to the fair itself and was free. The following day, I rode on the Metro to the fair. I commented at the time how closely spaced the stations were along the Green line, which at that time terminated at Atwater. While I've been on the entire original Montreal Metro system, I have not ridden on it since any of its extensions have been opened.
The first streetcar I ever rode on in my life was in Rome in July of 1977. Other international systems I've been on include London's tube (1978); Paris Metro (1978); Amsterdam #13 tram (1978); a trolley bus in Vilnius, Lithuanina in 1992, and a bus in Kaunas, Lithuanina in 1997.
I cant put a date on it, but my first subway/rapid transit ride probably came in about 1966. My aunt lived in Jackson Heights at 75th st so my first ride was either a R-1/9 on the E or the #7 worlds fair cars. When we would come into the PABT, our mom would ask my sister and I which way we would want to go out to my aunts, and going out we almost always chose the el....especially if was dark..( Can anyone out there remember all the signs there used to be around Court House Sq up to Rawson? I remember the Breyers, the Silvercup..but cant remember any of the others..) I DO remember the howling of the R units, and fast it seemed to a 7 year old from the sticks...
"..( Can anyone out there remember all the signs there used to be around Court House Sq up to Rawson? I remember the Breyers, the Silvercup..but cant remember any of the others..)"
I can remember the Swingline Stapler and the Wrigley Gum signs. Always liked the Swingline brand, until they moved out of Long Island City to....Mexico. Hell with `em, now.
Did MoMA move into the old Swingline place, or was that a different factory? They were outta here before I moved into the area, but I still have a few staplers with the old LIC address stamped on them.
MOMA moved into Swingline, but not the one that just about abuts the 7 line. They're in another old Swingline building on 33rd Street, half a block south of Queens Boulevard.
There were a bunch of great old huge signs in Long Island City. The one that always jumped out at me was the Pan Am sign in Queensborough Plaza. The signs are all gone, but most of the buildings they were on are still there.
I remember Swingline....especially riding in on the LIRR thru Sunnyside.
My oldest memories of transit:
R-10's on the HH,CC & F
R-16's on the J & LL
R-12,14,15,17,21 & 22's on the IRT (1,2,3,5 lines)
R-27's on the Grand St. Shuttle. (Homeless Exp.)
R-30's on the C
GM Fishbowls
Lines like: K,GG,LL,CC,HH,RR,QB & SS
The R to Astoria
The N to 71/Continental
The J to Queens Blvd.
The M on the Brighton Line
K Cars in Rush hour only service to 33rd St.
Philadelphia PCC's
Culver Shuttle demolition.
Dean Street
The "New" Bullseye token
I can go on. But, This is all I can think of right now. Who can guess how old I am?
I'll guess 26.
Not that old.
I think you gave us the answer a while back in another thread about retirement, I think the number is 21?
>>> Who can guess how old I am? <<<
21 going on 70, 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, here are some of mine:
PCCs all over Toronto.
R-1/9s on the IND everywhere
R-10s on the A.
R-16s on the 15 (what's that?:))
R-27/30s and R-32s exclusively on the BMT Southern Division
BMT standards on the Canarsie
R-38s on the E and F.
Slant R-40s on the E and F.
Sometimes that this board can really back memories - and this morning would be one of those times.
My Grandmother passed away about 6 months after I was born. My Grandfather, who had retired early to care for her, now needed something to fill his days - so his Grandson was it.
We spent many days riding surface transit and the SIRT - not to go anywhere, but just to be together, talk, and look at what was going on. I remember many, many days riding on the back of the R103 and R113, turning out of Tottenville on the then old buses (it was Staten Island, we did have the junk - but they just weren't junk to me).
Each of our trips ended at either the Sedutto's ice cream on New Dorp Lane or the Dunkin Donuts on Hylan Blvd.
I remember one day in particular on the SIRT. Pop had my brother and I. The conductor came around to collect fares. He told Pop that he was too old to pay, my brother was to young to pay, but that I was just right (about 7 years old!).
Paul, thank you for bringing up this topic. It's not too often that I can spend some time reflecting.
9/11/99
Another oldest memory of transit has just surfaced! When I was six years old,my family moved from our apartment at 1420 Eastern Parkway (between Howard and Pitkin Ave's) to our new digs at Ocean and Newkirk Avenue. It was July of 1957 and just 6 years of age I decided to take a walk in a strange neighborhood not familiar to me. I managed to slip away during the move of furniture and boxes and all of a sudden,my parents realized I was missing and called the Police to search for me. I was found alright,at Ditmas Avenue between East 16th St. and Marlborough Road. If you know the area well,Yep,I was peering though the open fence watching the AB's and D-types ply the rails in the open cut in BMT Brighton Line. I guess those bull and pinion sounds were calling me! I guess so,in my early infancy years my family's apartment was on Skillman Street between Park and Myrtle Avenue. Those same bull and pinion sounds of the open platform "el" cars must have been my first taste of old rapid transit. Later on,I was introduced to Lionel "O" gauge trains. TRAINS AGAIN!. Riding the subways today,I don't hear those bull and pinion anymore...SIGH! Progress I guess!
P.S. Living at Ocean and NEWKIRK Avenues gave birth to Newkirk Images
in May of 1992. See the inside cover of the 1996 Subway Calendar for furthur proof.
Bill NEWKIRK
Hey Bill,
Sounds just like me in regards to missing those bull and pinion gear sounds. While I still have an affection for the subway and always will, something was lost beginning in 1965 (demise of the D-types ), continued through 1969 (gone were the ABs and Qs), and disappeared completely in 1977 with the last of the R9s, thus bringing to a finale those beautiful sounds in REVENUE service.
It's great whenever fan trips run, but you just couldn't beat the constant starts and stops with those sounds. (fan trips make fewer stops and starts, thus less variety of those sounds)
Oh Well! "Gimme Dem Old Time Subway Cars, They're Good Enough For Me"
Mike H
Although I'm not sure I know what the bull & pinion gears are, I really miss the sounds of all those cars. (Although I'm not sure I ever rode the "D" Triplex, I was young-I definitely remember seeing them laid up on the Brighton over the Belt Pkway by Sheepshead Bay) The few times I went to the transit museum on Court St, the R9 in the State Museum and the stationary cars at Branford I thought something was missing. It was the sounds!!! At least the trolleys at Branford sound a little like pre-war subways, when the compressors go on it is music to the ears. I miss the grrr... sound, the hissing of the doors on the R1-9's, and the compressors when they were idling. Even the diesels of the 50's & 60's sounded different then now, a rising cresendo!! The oldest cars out there now that were at least once electric were are the MU's but with the motors removed they have no sound. (And why did they remove the reversible seats and replace them with M1 type seats!!!) The funny thing, when I was railfanning as a teen in the 60's taking R1-9's all over, standards on the Canarsie Line & the Culver, "Q"s on the Myrtle, and Low-V's on the 3rd Av El (usually all in one day!!) I thought they would all be around forever!!! Even today when I think of the subway I think of the R1-9's. (Remember the Saverin Coffee commercial)
P.S. Since I never took the Canarsie Line as a kid I thought the Standards were gone for 3 yrs when I spotted one on the "LL" wile changing from the "A" to the Jamaica El at Bway Junct. and went right to it!!! Same story with the Low-V's- I thought they were long gone in the late 60's and I lamented the fact I never rode one till one day I was travelling with my parents on the Bronx River Pkway and spotted one above Gun Hill Rd!!! I was a regular on both afterwards. Thats why when I enter a station I still subconsciously expect one of the old ones to enter. Hell, I'd even welcome an R10 now and I hated them then!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
Hey Sarge. So not only are you into Abbott &
Costello but the sounds of the R1/9's sing to your
heart. Back in the 60's or 70's, I can't place
things in my life exactly ( I'm not even sure where
I am now ), I took a portable tape recorder, one
of those that are the size of a book, and
recorded sounds on the CC and the L with the
R1/9's. I was always loved the sound of the
compressors chugging, the sound of the air being
released when the motorman was braking, the sound of
them roaring and banging away. I can listen to
those tapes now, and just get a very contented
feeling. Sometimes, not often, I'll put the tape in
my walkman when I'm riding the new equipment to make
riding seem more like riding. I try to keep the sound down, because I think another passenger hearing me listen to loud train sounds might freak someone out. I also have a tape
of the Broad Street line in Philly, if you really
like roaring. Anyway, why I mention it-- I'd be
happy to make copies of the tapes and send them to
anyone who wants. They can just send me a blank
tape back. They're not professionally done, but I'd
be happy to share them with anyone who would enjoy
the old sounds. I hope it's okay to give my e-mail
address? pkronenberg@webtv.net And
Sarge,thanks for your web-site, it got me started
again with Bud and Lou and Floogle Street and Who's
on First? Paul
Listening to tapes of the old equipment while riding the new reminds me of someone I saw at a bike rally. In the tape deck of his Honda Goldwing he had a tape of a Harley with straight pipes. While sitting at the curb wth the engine off he was throttling to the tape, must have had it memorized.
By the Way, seeing your name I must say I also miss the sounds of the Mack Buses. As a kid I rode on them on the Hempstead Bus Company from E.Meadow to Hempstead where I changed for an old GM on the Bee Line to 179St Jamaica to get an R1-9!! Sometimes had to pass up 1 or 2 fishbowls!!!
Hey Sarge ( is it okay to call you Sarge ?) . By
the way, let's test your comedy roots. There was a
TV comedy about a Sargeant not police. Four
questions: 1) What was his name in the series 2) Who
was the actor who played him The first 2 questions
were easy. 3) What was the name of the character
in the series who played a short heavy member of the
Sarge's outfit 4) Who was the actor who played
this character. Now to Transit issues. You
mentioned the Macks. Are you just assigned to this
precinct- Subtalk? Next door in Bus Talk over the
last two weeks there has been a trip down Mack Bus
memory lane. I've introduced a few novel posts on
that issue. Most notable to me has to retrofit the
new Orion 6000's series with Mack C-49 6000 shells
to make the bus more aesthetically pleasing. That
one didn't go over too big. Then we've been
considering What's the name of the bus that goes to
Floogle Street? And another big issue has been my
suggestion to rename Ulmer Park Depot to Howard
Brothers Depot in honor of you know who. That one
didn't go over too big either. I'm currently asking
people if they find the middle Accordion Section on
an Articulated Bus to be the most fun to ride. You
seem to hang out on the Electric Side here. Join us over on the Diesel side. We'll meet you half way, we can talk about the new Hybrid Diesel Electric bus. Besides we can always use another guy with a good sense of humor. Come on Sarge. Paul
By the way, let's test your comedy roots. There was a
TV comedy about a Sargeant not police. Four
questions: 1) What was his name in the series 2) Who
was the actor who played him The first 2 questions
were easy. 3) What was the name of the character
in the series who played a short heavy member of the
Sarge's outfit 4) Who was the actor who played
this character.
Can I take a stab at your TV show questions?
IF NOT, STOP READING NOW.
1) Sergeant (Ernest G.) Bilko
2) Phil Silvers
3) Private Doberman
4) Maurice Gosfield
Bonus Answer (since you didn't ask).
I've seen the program referred to as The Phil Silvers Show or The Sergeant Bilko Show, but I seem to recall the original name was "You'll Never Get Rich."
All right. It would take another Paul to know. A minor fine point. Private Doberman's first name was Dwayne. I think the show was originally You'll Never Get Rich" then in reruns I think it went with the other two names. I miss Bilko and his fast talking conniving. So to keep this a transit related post, should they name the maintenance shop of one of the depots the Phil Silvers Maintenance Shop or the Sargeant Ernie Bilko Motor Pool? Perhaps we could do this at Howard Brothers Depot.
Side question - Was Bilko shot in the old Biograph studio in the Bronx, the way Car 54 Where Are You? was, or was it shot in Los Angeles. Bilko had a lot of New York actors, though it didn't need the NYC exteriors. Car 54 had a lot of local exteriors, including some of the Bronx el and the old buses.
I used the same route as "Sarge" while commuting to & from Hofstra University in Hempstead. But by the time I was doing it, the Bee Line had a small number of "Old Looks" and mostly Fishbowls. And Hempstead was using Flexibles.
But the R1/9s were still busy at rush hour and I always looked forward to my rides on them.
>As a kid I rode on them on the
>Hempstead Bus Company from E.Meadow to Hempstead where I changed for >an old GM on the Bee Line to 179St
>Jamaica to get an R1-9!! Sometimes had to pass up 1 or 2 fishbowls!!!
(should be on BusTalk but the thread's here).
I'm an old veteran of the N-2 Meacham Avenue-to-Jamaica rush hour run, as well as countless rides on N-6 Fish Bowls. Bee Line had but ONE Flxible (#669), I believe it was on the Freeport N-4 run. Now and then we'd get an "old look" on the N-6. Only one got painted in MSBA livery - that was #619. Hideous! They painted the whole body dark blue except for a small section with orange/white.
WayneWayne
9/14/99
Wayne,
I have a slide of #619 sitting in the yard of Alert Coach Lines (not there anymore) in Amityville. They also had #616 and #617 which was run on the S-21 in the early 80's.
Bill Newkirk
Let me tell you - I will take you up on a tape recording in a heartbeat! Those R-1/9s and their moans, groans, grunts, and other associated sounds were music to my ears and very near and dear to my heart. If the door sounds can also be heard, all the better!
The bull gear is on the motor armature shaft, while the pinion gear is on the wheel axle. On a subway car truck, they are in constant mesh. On prewar equipment, spur-cut gears were used. Their teeth are cut straight across the edge of the gear, and while this method is less costly, these gears are noisy. Most automobiles with manual transmissions have spur-cut reverse gears, which is why you hear a loud hum when backing up.
Postwar cars beginning with the R-10s have helical-cut bull and pinion gears, whose teeth are cut diagonally across the gear edge. While this method is more costly, it results in much quieter gear operation.
Hey Steve. I posted that offer on Saturday to make copies of the R1/9 sounds. I was in the city that afternoon, and picked up two 8 packs of TDK 60 minute tapes so I could make copies for anyone who wanted them. I still have 2 unopened 8 packs. E-mail me your address and I'll be delighted to send you or anyone some real sound. pkronenberg@webtv.net
I thought I'd put in a plug for Paul's R-1/9 tape recording. Paul was kind enough to send me a copy - man, does it ever bring back memories! You get it all: throbbing compressors, the AMUE "tchhh-hssss" lap-release brake sounds, door locks releasing, doors opening and closing, the load sensing valve, and the bull and pinion gears groaning away. Not to mention handbrake handles banging around.
If you remember the R-1/9s and their marvelous sounds, here's a chance to go back in time, close your eyes, and relive a ride on those venerable cars. Don't miss it!
What a long handle!!!
Paul went through a lot of handles before settling on heypaul.
Hey Bill - I lived for a brief time at Dora Court, which, of course, is 2511 NEWKIRK Avenue. I learned some of my letters on the Flatbush IRT, my Mom pointing out the mosaic plaques and reading them off to me. "S" is the first letter I could say clearly. According to my Mom, I announced this letter, pointing at the "SEARS" sign on the roof of the store building at Bedford and Beverly Road. She loves to recount this story to me every time I visit them in Virginia.
We moved to Elmont, LI in 1956 - Mom and Dad lived there until 1983.
Wayne
I lived overlooking the Brighton Line Church Ave. station (I could see the express tracks from my 6th floor window), then a couple of blocks away until I was 19.
We had almost everything we wanted right in Flatbush. Major shopping on Church Ave. with Macy's, lots of movie theaters, even a vaudeville theater, but it closed when I was 3 or 4.
But the mention of Sears reminded me of what a great store it was (at the time people still called it Sears Roebuck). I looked forward to getting stuff at that store the way modern kids anticipate a shiny new mega-mall.
That reminds me of how they talk up things like "The Mall of America" (Minnesota?) which has major amusements like a roller coaster inside. Who needed a mega-mall when you had the BMT? A fast ride took you to the Atlantic Ocean (the ultimate wave pool), all the rides you could want, any kind of shopping you want, fabulous museums for every taste (most of them free admission) and much more.
Reminds you why we built cities in the first place.
My parents bought me my first electric train set at that Sears Roebuck....it was made by Marx, had 8 curved tracks and 2 straight tracks.
I remember ther Hi-V cars on the IRT westside. I recall they had windows next to the door and when the doors opened you would see what looked like a coiled telephone cord in that window (actually the door pocket)
The Standards and triplexes were on the BMT, Borough Hall Brooklyn ahd wooden escalators--one wide and one narrow. I also recalle how bright Times Square BMT was when they installed fluorescent lighting around 1960. 34 BMT was next! I recall the excitement of riding the NEW goldfish bowls with the passenger operated rear doors. I recall being on a smoke filled standard between the Manhattan bridge and Myrtle Flatbush-a hot box, hot car and even in the late 1950ss/early 1960s the windows did not budge!!We finally got to Myrtle and boarded another train. I recall the local stations south of 34 had diferent style diffuser covers over the lights than the express and local stations north of 34. Of course now the diffusers are gone!
I also recall how ancient I thought the Lo-V cars were and now they are my favorite.
How do you know you are getting older? Answer: When the new cars are museum cars!!The Lo-V replacements are now museum cars!!
(I'll stop here..I could go on and on and...)
Going on the platform with my mother (around 9:15AM) at the Sheepshead Bay station and being surprised that a late express (which only ran at rush hour then) pulled in. And the train was a Type D Triplex and the window in the front was low enough for me to look out of.
I loved looking out the window and I remember looking up and seeing the overhang from the roof of the train. That must have been about 1964.
I also remember the Type D express trains passing the local stations on the outer tracks on the Brighton Line during a six month construction project around 1964. We waited for a local at Cortelyou Rd. and had a Type D express pass the station on the local track.
What's with this trend of resurrecting ancient threads recently?
Hey, I did not have computer access back then, so it is new to me. Maybe that is why these old threads come back.
I was going to answer the first post in the thread, but then I noticed I already did, 3 1/2 years ago, under another handle!
Electric trolley buses on Flushing Avenue in 1959.
Does this win the prize for oldest revival of a thread?
Three years, six months, eight days.
If it was a Triplex "D" type, then it was one hell of a memory. It would have been even better had it been a #4BMT Sea Beach one. That was my all time train. I just loved to see that big #4 come roaring into 42nd Street and Times Square when I was a kid. It meant I could leave that crappy 4th Avenue Local and ride a real train, an express.
In the early fifties, as a child of 5 or 6, I remember riding the old wooden cars on the el that ran along Liberty Ave. in Brooklyn. The station at Crescent St. had a pot bellied stove though I think by that time it was on longer in use.
After my family moved to Long Island in 1954, I would go to the LIRR station in Babylon. The crossing next to the station was protected by gates the were cranked down by hand. The gateman stayed in a shed next to the tracks that also had a small coal stove - this one was still in use.
The absolute earliest memory I have of riding an electric transit line was on the Rockaway Beach line. My older brother told me to get off at a station before our home stop at Beach 98th Street. I remember stepping out the train and standing on the platform. I guess my mother pulled me back into the train before it left. This must have been in 1959 or so. I would have been four or five years old. Maybe that's why I like bridges and trains: my first traveling memories involved open window third rail trains going to and from Rockaway over the trestle!
Also, I remember riding that long escalator at East New York from the IND to the Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction station, on our way to Jamaica. Again, around 1959 or 1960.
Well, I know this thread is a few years old, but I wasn't around here (at least posting) back then, so here we go:
My first subway riding memory was around 1977 or so. (I rode earlier than that, but was really too young to remember). Anyway, my neighbor had her grandson visiting, who was my age. She decided to take me and him to Radio City Music Hall for a movie and show. I have no idea what the movie was, but sure do remember the subway ride! It involved the M train over the Williamsburg Bridge, and she must've been a closet railfan, because she brought us right to the "railfan" window. I remember so clearly looking down, and seeing the water below the tracks. At Essex, we transfered to the F at Delancy to Radio City.
On the way back we entered the system at the 49th Street/Broadway Station. (again very clear memory - I remember the orange tiles). We took that to Union Square for the L, and then went up to Myrtle-Wyckoff. This is where things got strange, and why I think she must've been a closet railfan. At the north end of Wyckoff station (before all the storage rooms, etc) there was a huge wooden walkway at track level that went to the tower, and also covered the entire area there where the "express" track is supposed to be north of the station (much more than now). We actually walked to the north end of the platform, and walked down to track level and onto that wooden decking over the express trackway at track level! At that time, it was a large wood area, and you could see right to Myrtle-Broadway from that "decking over the express track" to watch to see if a train was coming. I remember standing down there and walking around with her, and watching for the train so clearly.
Well, I was hooked....it was the making of a railfan.
My oldest memory has to be the early Hoboken Festivals. My dad and I would come to them every year. I'd say th earliest one I can probably remember would be 1985 or so. We would usually park in Dover and take the train in. Then we'd walk around the terminal looking at all the displays. Then we'd do one or more of the following things:
1) Take a ride on PATH
2) Take the free tour of hoboken aboard a NJT articulated bus
3) Take a boat ride (used to be Circle Line boats back in the day)
During one of the Hoboken Festivals we rode the "Farewell to the Edison Cars" trip. Here is a photo of me on that trip.
Take Pride,
Brian
Good picture Doobie. Since you are waving a flag I take it you weren't a Democrat in those days. Anyway, those early railfan memories are priceless. My anniversary is coming on April 19, and it will be the 56th since the day I first rode the best line of all.
"My anniversary is coming on April 19, and it will be the 56th since the day I first rode the best line of all."
Happy Anniversary in advance...for it's 56 years since you meant the old #1 BMT Brighton line you first rode on. lol
Actually I rode the Brighton first in 1945 when my dad took me to a ball game at Ebbets Field. He wanted to get me interested in baseball but in '45 and '46 I found it rather boring. It was the next year that I really caught on and became a fanatical fan. I also rode the Brighton to see my aunt and uncle who lived off of Newkirk Avenue from l946 to 1949 when they bought a house in Levittown. So you see I rode your train long before I rode mine. Until April 19, 1947, we always took the elevated West End to see both sides of my grandparents. UNTIL APRIL 19, 1947.
It is always a pleasure to share your childhood memories with your fellow Subtalkers. I hope you remember these stores at Newkirk Plaza (the mall)
Befrore your fetish for the #4 BMT line (a.k.a. Sea-Beach line), you mentioned your aunt and uncle buying a house off Newkirk Ave in Brooklyn. Well to rekindle some memory to you but they probably went to the hardware store by the train station (on the corner of Newkirk Ave, first store in the mall.) If memory serves you right about the hardware store, and the floral shop (Linderman Florist, outside the station control house), they are both still there. The hardware store dates back to 1908 and the florist a few years later (1912, could be off a few years.) Right now, the mall itself is undergoing a major rehab, which they cut off (temporarily???) the open cut view of the express trains roaring into Newkirk Ave station.
When we meet up in the summer for fun in Coney Island, I will remind you of the stores at Newkirk Plaza and the original BRT plaque on the east side of the control house, sadly marred by an asshole spray painting his "tag" on the entire plaque. That is why I consider the Brighton Line so chock full of rich history, and the best line in the world.
Well we got some interesting sight seeing in store, don't we? Looking forward to it.
Of course, you saw nothing except BMT standards on the West End then, right?
Then as the song goes, just one look - that's all it took, and you were hooked on the Triplexes. Just as I was hooked on the R-10s.
"Since you are waving a flag I take it you weren't a Democrat in those days."
And what the hell is that supposed to mean?
Remember Congressmen Bonior and McDermott? Remember Martin Sheen and Barbara Streisand? Remember Jane Fonda? Now you should be able to figure it out.
Fred...
I am not going to argue politics with you any more after this post, because I am in the vast, vast majority here at Subtalk who would appreciate it if you left the right wing bullshit at home. There are plenty of other forums, such as freerepublic.com, where you can vent.
How dare you accuse the Democratic party as being unpatriotic, while the Republican party is the all-American flag wavers. I am happy to be living in the country, and I am about as appreciative of the Bill of Rights as they come, but I am extremely anti-war and I do not support George Dubya Bush. Does that make me unAmerican if I don't wave the American flag everytime i hear plans to kill innocent people for Bush's perverse self gratification? It is our duty as a democratic society to question EVERYTHING our leaders do, not to line up like sheep behind them. I commend all of the above-mentioned people for speaking their minds and expressing their concerns about the way their beloved country is headed.
That's it on my end, I would hope you don't drag politics through the board in the future.
Did you hear me say the Democratic Party was unpatriotic? Did that appear in my post? It did not. I made a few points and let you draw your own conclusions just like Bill O'Reilly likes to do. You did it. If the shoe fits, you wear it.
BTW, I didn't hear you or your ilk complain one whit when Clinton bombed the hell out of Serbia, including the Chinese Embassy where three people were killed. I suppose that was justified. Speaking of bullshit.
Fred, cut the politics... this is SubTalk, not PoliticalFlame.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Did you hear me say the Democratic Party was unpatriotic?"
You must not remember saying this: "Since you are waving a flag I take it you weren't a Democrat in those days."
So you take a perfectly good thread, and hijack it for your political vendettas?
It's one thing when the discussion veers towards politics, it's quite another when you force it there.
December 26th or 27th 1990. Took the Long Island railroad to New York City to Rockefeller Center. Took the 6th ave subway (I think) took possibly R-68's or R-46's.
February 2000. Took the NYCT bus with my grandparent and brother from 42nd street to the USS Intrepid Museum don't remember the bus line I took.
September 10 2001 the day before the 9/11. Took the N19 bus to the Sunrise Mall and back.
My oldest datable transit memory is of riding the Chicago L. I might not have remembered the date, but I remember that movie posters for Alien were all over the subway tunnels, which would have made it...1979? I know I rode it realier than that, but that's the earliest ride I can date.
Mark
I grew up with a 12th story view of the layup tracks between Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach. Even though I'm a young pup (39), I remember Southbound trains originating from Brighton Beach. This mean there's a good chance that this was the NX (1967). I can remember R1-9 types parked mid-day and nights on the lay-up tracks.
My first memories of transit were from Queens Blvd. in Sunnyside. I could look out my apartment window (on 43rd St) and see the endless parade of BMT Q cars and IRT World's Fair trains going by. I rode both as a little guy and can still remmember details about them. As I've previously stated in other posts, the Queensboro Plaza station, with both levels going, was an awesome sight! I transferred to BMT Standards if I was going to visit my mother's family in Brooklyn or stayed on the IRT to Grand Central or Times Sq. if I was going to transfer to the Lexington-Jerome or Broadway-7th Ave lines to visit my Dad's family in the Bronx.
If we were just going into Manhattan, we would usually take the double-decker bus that ran from Jackson Heights over the Queensboro Bridge and down 5th Avenue, when the latter was a two-way street. I also remember taking the open-top 5th Avenue bus up Riverside Dr.
Those were great, exciting days for a young boy who was in love with urban rapid transit.
P.S. The above memories were circa 1943-1947, and they are surprisingly vivid. Of course, I can't remember the names of people I met yesterday, but that's the aging process.
I have memories of riding the Jerome Avenue el in the Bronx in the 1960s. My memories of riding R1-9's on the Queens Blvd IND in the early '70s are much more vivid.
My earliest memory...
I remember riding the brand spankin' new orange Kawasaki Broad Street Subway cars, and the brand new Subway-Surface Trolleys around the same time. I also remember riding in some Almond Joys on the El when I went to visit my grandfather in Frankford, and I remember being in some in the dead of summer when they felt like an oven. Most weren't that bad, but a few were. This would've been around 1980 or 1981.
Well, fairly datable, anyway: Riding a Chicago & West Towns trolley car through the Cook County forest preserves, with branches brushing against the car, en route to Brookfield Zoo. The line was abandoned when I was 14 months old, so that pins it down to somewhere between 2/47 and 4/48, and probably closer to the end of that range. I remember the trolley ride vividly, but not what must have preceded it, a ride on the North Side and Douglas Park "L" lines to connect with the West Towns. All I remember of the zoo was the scrounging chipmunks on the grounds.
Not really transit, but I also remember the 1948-49 Chicago Railroad Fair.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Well, fairly datable, anyway: Riding a Chicago & West Towns trolley car through the Cook County forest preserves, with branches brushing against the car, en route to Brookfield Zoo. The line was abandoned when I was 14 months old, so that pins it down to somewhere between 2/47 and 4/48, and probably closer to the end of that range.
Wait - you can remember something that took place when you were 14 months old (or less)? I don't think that's possible for anyone.
The nation's oldest subway system began 102 years ago today, on September 1st, 1897. Back thethe system was a lot smaller, for today there are four subway lines (some parts are streetcars), several commuter rail lines, Ferries, and the mattapan extension which features PCC Trolleys.
Also, more of the Type 8's, the tenth-generation green line trolley's which are low-floor cars, continue to have more service on the D (Riverside-Lechmere) line. So far five or 6 cars are in service, and several cars are in acceptance testing too. Over the next year or two, 100 of these cars will go into service on all four green line routes. They will replace the Boeing-Vertol light rail cars, which are 22 years old. These cars have been brought up to perfection too, they are running at good speeds both as a streetcar and subway, and the automated announcements have been re-vamped as well. If any subtalkers make it out to Boston, I encourage you to take a ride on these cars! -Nick
Nick, are you saying the Boston Trolley/subway sustem is 102 years old or the Green Line in particular? Much of the Green line out to Riverside is former B&A trackage that wasn't taken over by the MBTA until the early 1960's.
I think Nick is referring to the subway portion which opened 102 years ago. After all, Boston was the first city in the US to have a subway, even if it was for streetcars.
Nick is absolutely correct! It's the "Tremont Street Subway" that's the oldest portion, from Park Street to Boylston. Here's the CBS News Report I did two years ago on the 100th anniversary.
I had a bad link in the previous message. Here's the CBS News Report.
Thanks for claryfying that, Todd. My aplogies for not mentioning which section is the oldest...but the Park St.-Boylston section is the green line, so I always associate the green line being 102 years old, evewn though many parts of it aren't quite that old. -Nick
I saw a Type 8 in the Riverside Yard when I was in Boston in June. I only got the Boeings/Kiniki-Sharyo cars.
The Green line was my favorite subway route there.
There were Type 8s operating on the Boston College Green Line branch the week of 16 August as the second unit in two-car trains with (I assume) a Kinko as the other unit. I think I saw one or two two-car trains of Type 8s, but since I was driving, I couldn't keep looking as much as I would have liked.
Boston is generally credited with the first North American subway, but there's always the question of whether streetcars operating underground should properly be called "subway" service. Some of the line was converted to rapid transit trains and then restored to trolley service.
Among "firsts," New York's 1868 pneumatic subway always seems to get left out, and hardly anyone celebrated the 100th anniversary of rapid transit in New York in 1968 to mark the opening of the 9th Avenue El. The City and TA act as if there was nothing in New York prior to the IRT in 1904.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There were Type 8s operating on the Boston College Green Line branch the week of 16 August as the second unit in two-car
trains with (I assume) a Kinko as the other unit.
This may or may not be the case. Right now, only one type 7 kinko car (#3682) has been modified with the type 8, and yes, it does run with the type 8 sometimes. Also, the type 8 runs as a single car, or 2 type 8s run together. From what I understand, there have been some problems with modifying the type 7s, but don't have many details on that. All I know is that so far only one more type 7 car (#3622) is being modified to work with the type 8. -Nick
It was the case. I can't swear how many mixed pairs I saw, but I did see at least one, maybe two, mixed sets and some Type-8 pairs. If there's only one Kinko modified to run with the new cars, then there could only have been one and I stand corrected in thinking I had seen two while dodging rubber-tired vehicles in North America's worst city for driving. I didn't see any Kinko pairs, though.
In all the weekend riding on the Saturday and Sunday previous, we didn't see any Type-8s in operation. Are they restricted to weekday use?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
That's correct... there is only one Type-7 currently modified to MU with the Type-8s. (By the way, the Type-7s are made by Kinki, not Kinko.) And they currently only run on weekdays. The latest I've heard is that five Type-8s have been accepted and are in service, and five more are in acceptance testing at Riverside.
The latest I've heard is that five Type-8s have been accepted and
are in service, and five more are in acceptance testing at Riverside.
As long as the New England Transportation website has correct information (which I'm pretty sure they do), this is correct. Also, the 2 prototype cars (3800, 3801) are being brought up to a standard type 8 at both the Littleton, MA and Italy plants that Breda operates. -Nick
My first "trolley" experience was on the Boston Green Line, I remember it and the date vividly: Wednesday, June 30, 1999.
Amtrak and Bombardier held a news conference to annouce that the Acela trains will not be phased in until Spring of 2000, as opposed to within the next few months, as was previously stated.
Jacques Lapare, the North American head of Bombardier Inc., which is building the train with Paris-based Alstom, said that the delay was due to "excessive wheel wear." He added that "This delay is unfortunate but not unusual when new technology, although proven, is being introduced in a new environment."
To blunt the letdown, Warrington announced that Amtrak is on schedule with other improvements linked to the Acela system, specifically, plans to electrify a stretch of track between Washington and Boston to allow existing trains to run slightly faster in the interim.
(source: Associated Press)
Maybe it should be called "decela" instead?
Of course, the word "Amtrak" is often heard in the same sentance as "late"
I also heard that they've got a nasty truck hunting problem - which brings up a few interesting questions:
1)What is the wheelbase on the trucks? I understand the French have had lots of luck by loengthening the wheelbase a few feet.
2)Is there any kind of truck damper? I was under the impression that the TGV has, but doesn't really need them.
3) Why isn't the acela articulated? Wouldn't this be safer and save weight?
4) Does the acela have body mounted traction motors?
5) Will they operate with only the rear pan up, or both up (likely to be a disaster)
6) Anyone want to speculate on how reliable the tilt system will be? I have heard they are sensitive to track variations.
7) Are they going to reduce the obnoxiously long dwell times at Penn, etc?
8) Does anyone here actually believe the "in about 3 hours" NY -> boston schedule?
I believe the three hour number, unless the boaters manage to keep the bridges up in eastern CT so much the trains end up waiting on the track. Boston to New York isn't any farther than Washington to NY, and they manage three hours on that one. Electrification alone should cut the time way down, although AMTRAK may not have enough electric rolling stock without the new trains.
BTW, I believe that AMTRAK should operate the tracks and let competing private companies run trains. On routes like the Northeast Corridor, I believe such companies could make money while competition would drive them to improve service and attract customers.
Explain this...
I was at Marcy on a J Train at around 3. Not far away was a M Train. It got held up on the approach to the bridge. So I thought that there were just alot of trains. When my train go up to the approach, 2 signals weren't even functioning. They were stuck on red. My train had to key them both. Oh yeah, there were still buses on the Manhattan side of the bridge.
I found out that Marcy Avenue is closed late nights. The buses are for service from Essex - Hewes. But still what's with the messed up signals.
On the MTA web site, it says the B39 will still run for free across the bridge and Marcy Avenue was closed (I'm not sure as to why). The B39 has always run there but NOT for free until the WillyB was closed.
Why did the R44s and R46s get new numbers when all the many other cars that were rebuilt kept their old numbers?
9/1/99
I guess it is because the T.A. wanted 4 digit numbers on all passenger
cars,so these cars (44's,46's) would have to give up their 3 digit numbers. I don't think the T.A. would go for placing a zero in front of the 3 digit number and giving these cars a "Boston" look !!
Bill Newkirk
It could be that they wanted four digits for all cars because of the way the information is stored in their computers. Perhaps the three-digit car numbers saved themselves as "333_(blank)" rather than "0333". Four-digit numbers with a significant digit (1 through 9) in the leftmost position won't have this problem.
Wayne
I had heard it was to free up the 100 series for the next generation of cars. If it's not the 142's, it might be the 143's. They did go back to 3 digits for buses after trying 5 digits for a while.
The answer to this was pure laziness. Instead of getting the cars together in order and then placing the link bars between them, they took what ever cars were coupled together, link barred them, and renumbered them. Since there was no way to do the renumbering in the same block of numbers, they started the 5000 series for this. Then they had to update all the maintenance records.
The ERA NY Division recently published the re-numbering list.
Won't be the 142's - there aren't enough free numbers between 100 and 1299 to fit both the primary and option orders - I hear they're going to start these with #6301 and use up the R16, R17, MS, R21 and R22 numbers. As for the R143s, that's anybody's guess, you may have it called right about #100. I'm hedging my bet and guessing they'll start with #8100.
Wayne
What is the latest with these cars? Have any arrived in NY yet and is there a date for when they start to carry passengers?
Your answers is here...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/carsrtyp.htm
You have to scroll a little farther down.
I'm looking for NYC subway maps, for the Time Square area. Not the color/cartoon type map thats available all over, but actual architectural/engineering quality.Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks
Anthony
You won't find them on the web. Try the Archives of the Transit Museum or the NYC city planning office or whatever they call it. You'll probably need to do some legwork to find them.
-Dave
I hate to tell you this, b ut the Archives are a terrible place to start. They have no detailed maps.
Pete Dougherty, who turns up in Subtalk sometimes, has a detailed subway track book, if that's the kind of thing you're looking for. It might be in Amazon or BN.
It can be ordered directly from him - see the information elsewhere on this website (or a link directly from this site).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was out on the subway today and covered the Franklin Shuttle Bus as well as the Rockaway Line and the Willy B. Here's some of what I saw.
Franklin Av Line: From Park Place north the line will be single tracked using the former southbound track O-1. The steelwork for the northbound track has been removed from the overpasses. Franklin Av Terminal has a rather nice looking gree overpass. It seems that when the line re-opens it will be necessary to go down into the IND subway station and then go up into the Franklin Av El station.
Rockaway Line: GO in effect , A runs 207-Lefferts 9A-3P. A shuttle runs Rockaway Blvd-Far Rockaway single tracking between Howard Beach and Broad Channel via northbound F-4 track. Shuttle relay on middle K3/4 track at 80 Street.
Willy be is indeed reopenned and looks very nice. Temporary center platform still in place at Marcy Av. Northbound trains still using center track J 3/4 at Essex Street.
Best part of trip was a ride on 7750-7751 on IRT #5 Lexington Av Thru-Exp. Not only is 7750 the Redbird Patriarch but he the oldest operating rapid transit cars in the country in regular service. He looks remarkable good for his age (40).
Least exciting: A ride on the R-68's on the D from Atlantic to Prospect Park. I thought we were doing pretty well at 10 mph until we were overtaking by an escaped turtle from the Prospect Park Zoo.
Larry,Redbird R33
We've already covered this. The only entrance to the Shuttle station or the eastbound IND station would be via a NEW SURFACE LEVEL MEZZANINE. There will also be a part time entry directly to the IND westbound. Nobody will have to go down then up or vice versa.
Yes and I bet his wife #7751 looks pretty good for her age as well. They've been getting the Bondo Squad out for some of these 'Birds where the rust isn't too far advanced, starting with the R33s.
BTW - how many times did the turtle pass you up??? :o>
Waybe
I assume only once, unless the turtle decided to stop and rest.
Wayne: I rode the following consist today on a souhtbound Rt J from Eastern Parkway to Broad Street. R-40M4530-1,4548-9,4524-5 and last but not least R-40M 4460 mated to R-42 4665. I checked and double checked the car numbers. Even though R-40M's and R-42's run in the same train I don't think I've ever seen the two types married.
I did see an eight car train of R-40's on the M but all other J trains were straight R-42's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, and if you don't quite recall the circumstances behind this second marriage, the first marriages for both came to an end with a resounding crash at 6:12AM on June 5, 1995, high above the ground on the Williamsburg Bridge as #4461, her motorman asleep at the controls and doomed to die, slammed into the rear of #4664 at 25MPH, telescoping him a distance of 17 feet and utterly destroying his frame and undercarriage as well as his entire "A" end. #4461's straight nose was smashed back 7 feet or so, but the frame somehow escaped serious harm. What a photo on the front of the Newsday of June 6, 1995, beneath the stark caption "Point Of Impact"!
Right now, #4461 is under the care of the Coney Island Body Doctors, who have grafted the slanted nose of #4260 onto her "A" end, turning the R40M into a Slant R40 and a "she" into a "he". It's nowhere near finished, I hear. The original #4260's carcass lies devoid of its "A" end on one of the CI yard tracks, visible from the passing "N"; the gash in his side is quite apparent where he slammed into the curtain wall near 9th Avenue on August 15, 1994. #4664 is probably lying about out there as well. There's a grisly picture of his shattered face on Page 106 of Stan Fischler's "The Subway".
Once the blind end of #4665 was pounded back into shape (I got to see them up close at Eastern Parkway; you can see where the Body Docs fixed her dent with a neat patch), she was mated to R40M #4460. I don't know if there were any additional modifications made to either unit.
Wayne
On R46s there is a humming sound during braking. I assume its the electromagnetic resistance caused by the dynamic brakes and traction motors.
What kind of braking does the LIRR, MNCRR and NJT use? Dynamic? Regenative?
When the handle of a NYCTA train car is placed in full service does the air brakes also come on or does the air brake stay off until the car reaches a certain speed?
Humming? More like a whine I'd say. It's the sound of torque
being transmitted through the gearboxes during dynamic braking,
like a car moving at high speed in reverse gear.
No regen braking in the current fleets.
When the handle is placed in full service, do the air brakes come
on? Boy, that's a complicated question. Generally, as long
as the dynamics are putting out the requested braking effort,
the lockout magnet valve forestalls air pressure from being
admitted to the brake cylinders. The inshot valve allows a
tiny bit of pressure to bring the shoes up against the wheels
and get them ready for dynamic fade-out. Most of the current
NYCTS fleet has been modified to remove the inshot feature.
On older, now retired SMEE equipment, a supplemental air feature
allowed up to 20 psi of inshot air to the cylinders at full service.
To anyone from Boston or knowledgable:
This weekend, I'm going to Boston for a 2-day, 1-night stay (Sat - Sun). I was there as a teenager, but don't remember much about the transit system.
2 things:
What shouldn't I miss, transit-wise? I mean, is there something about the T you're proud of?
Is it easy to use the T from the airport to downtown (School Street)?
Thanks in advance.
Peter F from NYC.
Not an answer to the question but another question: I own a number of books about NY subways, Els, trolleys, etc. Has anyone seen similar books about the Boston transit system?
There is one that I know of called "The Boston Transit Album". It was published about 10-15 years ago and had lots of pictures from the early years of subway operation in beantown.
I believe it was published by a Boston-area rail-preservation society (I'll look at my book collection tonight and give the pertinent details tomorrow).
Doug aka BMTman
Boston books are few and far between. There is one coming out soon on Boston in the 1940s. Some of the older ones are still available at Seashore or via the BSRA.
There's a few that I know of:
"Change at Park St. Under" - Brian Cudahy (same guy who wrote Under the Sidewalks of NY, but I have never seen a copy-- I have all of these other ones)
"Boston's Main Line El: The Formative Years 1879-1908" - George Chiasson, Jr. (an ERA publication about the original Orange line, now demolished. It's 80 pages and was published in 1987)
"Tremont St. Subway: A Century of Public Service" by Bradley H Clarke and O.R. Cummings (a history of the first subway. Includes photos, track maps, and text. Even has some photos of when the subway tunnel had rapid transit trains in it.)
"From Boston to the Berkshires: A pictorial review of electric transportation in Massachusettes" - Stephen P. Carlson and Thomas W. Harding. (Mostly black & white photos of various trolley systems that once existed in Mass.)
"Trolleys Under the Hub" - Frank Cheney and Anothony M Sammarco (more b&w photographs but concentrating solely on Boston. Better quality photos than the above book)
HTH,
dave
All Good ones and available through Seashore's Store except for the first which is out of print.
There was a copy of Change At Park Street Underat the Fall Trolley Extravaganza last week in mediocre condition for $60. At that price I decided to pass. Both bibliofind and ABE (Advanced Book Exchange) have a listing (from the same shop) for a copy at $50 - at that price I'll still pass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there's ONE THING not to miss on the Boston T, it's the Mattapan-Ashmont shuttle. From a public standpoint, it's part of the Red Line, but it's operated by the Green Line Light Rail Division. It's one of the few remaining PCC operations in the world. And the good news is that the cars are being rebuilt, and will not be retired soon as we're seeing in Newark!
And yes, it's easy to get to downtown from the Airport. Just take the free Airport Shuttle Bus (#22 or #33) to the station; hop on the Blue Line inbound, and change for the Orange Line at State Street (if necessary to reach your destination).
Thanks for that, I'll be in Boston myself in mid October.
The first rebuilt car is now at Mattapan in traction orange and cream livery with silver roof and red/black trim. An updated version of a 1940s Boston El scheme.
The best rides on the T are the Blue Line and the Red Line plus the outside parts of the Green Line B & C. I also recommend Mattapan-Ashmont for its scenery as well as the equipment.
Personally, I like the tour of the Orange Line to the North. It provides some nice views of the harbor and the city and the Boston Garden/North Station Commuter Railroad Complex.
Don't forget to say hello to Charley if you run into him.
Since the T has no all-night service (and hasen't since shortly after the Kingston Trio's hit), so Charley gets put off when the car/train reaches the end of service.
Sorry, Charley.
Since closing of the Williamsburg Bridge to subway traffic back in May, I have become very accustomed to the variety of subway cars as well as car changes on the A, C, E, J, M, N and Q. Then wham, just overnight (Tuesday night to be exact) everything "seems" to be back the way it was before the bridge closing. From what I was able to observe on Wednesday morning, I saw absolutely nothing on the "Q" except R40 slants. The "A" happens to run by my house (well, the Far Rockaway "A" anyway) so I was able to observe it throughout the day. From what I witnessed, there was not one R32 to be found on that line. I find this to be quite boring.
I was only able to observe the "A" and the "Q". Has anyone seen anything different than what I described above concerning the "A" and "Q"? Are things back to normal on the other lines I mentioned above? What is your opinion on things being back to normal?
I liked seeing the R42 not being a prisoner of the Eastern Division. I will also miss the R46's on the E.
32's on the N this AM.
There were plenty of R32s on the N before the WillyB closed. They are on the C, E, and N lines.
I saw a R-32 set of A trains (207 St-bound) at 34 Street Penn Station last night @ around 7:30 PM.
That was probably a R32 belonging to Pitkin yard.Jamaica R32s that were in Pitkin are back in Jamaica.
While riding across the Willy B yesterday afternoon, I stood near the front of the first car and listened to the T/O talking with another T/A employee through her open cab door. Neither of them had been across the bridge since it had reopened. On climbing out of the tunnel, the train encountered a little yellow sign (same color and dimensions as a GT or ST sign). It said, "Blind Stop." Neither of them knew what it meant. There were several more of them as we went across the bridge. DOES ANYONE BUT THE SIGN PAINTER KNOW WHAT IT MEANS? Is this something new? Why here? Where else? Does the T/A plan to clue in its operating personnel?
BTW: Very smooth ride. Problem signals on the Westbound track had people standing next to them waiving trains through.
[ the bridge. DOES ANYONE BUT THE SIGN PAINTER KNOW WHAT IT MEANS? Is
this something new? Why here? Where else? Does the T/A plan to clue in
its operating personnel? ]
It means that there is a stop arm there, but no signal. In this case, the blind stops are all about 5 feet before the signals. My guess is that this is to provide either some redundancy, or perhaps these are controlled remotely, and are there to prevent key-by or something.
Anyone know _why_ they're there?
BLIND STOP are used with the wheel detectors and a microprocesser to enforce SPEED limits.
Can be conditional on switch reverse moves, where speed is enforced.
I have the control lines for the new signals on the bridge done by F & V Electric and Union Switch & Signal. There are blind stops on that contract for the wheel detector. I will explain it use on Subtalk tomorrow.
BTW, the wheel detector system is used on bridge for moves into the middle (only) at Essex Street Station from J2 track.
Am I the only person in Manhatten who everwants to go to Mineola after 6:39 a.m. but before 8:15? Does LIRR "management" know they don't have a single Eastbound train through Mineola for over an hour and a half? If not, why not? If so, who is responsible and how do I find out where he/she lives?
[Am I the only person in Manhatten who everwants to go to Mineola after 6:39 a.m. but before 8:15? Does LIRR "management" know they don't have a single Eastbound train through Mineola for over an hour and a half? If not, why not? If so, who is responsible and how do I find out where he/she lives?]
Thank the fact that the line through Mineola has only two tracks. Both of them are used for westbound service most of the time during a.m. rush, thereby limiting reverse-commute service.
There's a train that gets into Garden City (on the Hempstead branch) at 7:40 AM (leaves Penn at 6:55 AM). Depending on where you were headed from Mineola station, Garden City is not too far away.
On a side note, I'd have thought that there wouldn't be that same service gap eastbound on the Hempstead branch (90 minutes between eastbound trains) during the morning rush, since they don't use both tracks westbound, and the single track section probably isn't more than a mile long. I was surprised to see such a long gap in service.
Walk over on 7th Street from Hilton to Franklin Avenue in GC to get the N15 bus to Mineola. Goes right to the station, maybe a 7-minute ride. On a nice day, it's a nine-block walk from GC to Old Country and Mineola Blvd.
Wayne
I wonder if the third track that is currently under construction between Mineola and Merillon Ave. might allow an extra eastbound train during that period of the AM rush?
[ I wonder if the third track that is currently under construction
between Mineola and Merillon Ave. might allow an extra eastbound train
during that period of the AM rush? ]
I thought about that too. It could be, in effect, a passing siding for Eastbound traffic on 2 track. With the current situation, in order to get one eastbound in, you have to reverse the direction of traffic pretty much from Divide to Queens. I'd guess that run is about 15 minutes. To get another westbound on it again, you have to change directions again. Each time you change direction, you effectively can't have anything enter the block for 15 mins. So, to stick in one eastbound means that you have to stop westbound traffic for 30 minutes. Hmm, this still may not be clear. An example. Westbound traffic on 2 track. Last train leaves hicksville at 7:30AM. It gets to Queens at 7:45. Eastbound leaves Queens interlocking at 7:45. Gets to Hicksville at 8AM. Now, 30 mins later, the next eastbound can leave. Of course, I left no lee-way at either tower, and the 15 minutes is an estimate (don't have a TT in front of me). if it's 20 minutes, there's a 40 minute penalty.
Anyways, using the mineola siding, you can sneak things in there, with much less penalty. The penalty in that case, is basically 2 times the longest trip time, whether that is queens -> nassau, or nassau to divide. I won't give an example here, but it would end up working just like the above, except that the eastbound can hide in the siding to let a westbound pass.
Now, whether they'll do this, or instead just use it to turn around O.B. trains, I dunno. I figure they'll opt for the latter, since the former would amount to an increase in service, and most would agree that the latter is a decrease.
Although this is just a guess, I'm pretty sure the
new track is just for Oyster Bay trains.(or maybe to
layover trains) I don't think the railroad will go
through all that bother just for the reverse
commuters. Going back to 2 direction tracks at rush
hour would make more sense. After all, there isn't
too many trains on the wrong side to begin with.
About 4 or 5. At least during the PM rush. By the
way, looking at my timetable during that period (AM
rush) a train arrives at Mineola at 6:39 then 8:15.
That really isn't that bad anyway (1hr 36 min)
considering its reverse commuters. During the PM its
5:38 and 6:44 (1 hr 6min)
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If more of you hicks from the sticks would stay where you belonged, we reverse commuters wouldn't be treated as second class citizens. "Considering it's reverse commuters," indeed. We also have to get where we're going, when we have to get there. The nerve of some people.
As for taking the train to Hempstead, it's faster to take the F train to Hillside Avenue and the Long Island Bus to Hempstead.
I didn't mean any offense to anyone on my posting. I should have said "considering the lighter ridership". I have worked 4x12's for as long as I can remember so I am sort of a reverse commuter myself. Sorry if you took offense.
Well, here's another one for you. I take the 5:00 PM from Port Washington to the Broadway stop every day (I work in Port Washington). Frequently, abt 3-4 times a month, that train is cancelled because the eastbound train hasn't made it into Port (the PW line is single tracked from Great Neck to Port Washington, a blunder that hasn't been addressed since 1898, when the Great Neck-PW leg opened).
Anyway, when the 5:00 is cancelled, the next train, the 5:23 express, usually becomes a local and stops at each station, and I can get off at Broadway. But sometimes, inexplicably, the dispatcher decides to keep the 5:23 as an express despite the fact that the previous local has been cancelled. Gotta get out at Broadway? Sorry, pal. As it is, Broadway has no service between abt 5:20 and 6:30 PM-- a 70-minute stretch -- but on the days when the LIRR plays games, it has no service for about two hours.
Additionally, in the mornings, there are no eastbound station stops at Broadway between abt 6:30 and 8:18. Way too much time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[ Additionally, in the mornings, there are no eastbound station stops at
Broadway between abt 6:30 and 8:18. Way too much time. ]
I think that's not very unreasonable for Broadway, compared to other places. Mineola could use better reverse-direction service, though.
On the other hand, The oyster bay doesn't have any eastbound service between about 1:30AM and 8:30AM (Roslyn Arrival time). It makes it all but impossible to commute in that direction, because there's no way in any earlier.
On those days Kevin, if the train stops at either Little Neck, Douglaston,or Bayside (Bell Blvd) its only a short walk to Northern where you can take a bus W/B.
>>>>On those days Kevin, if the train stops at either Little Neck, Douglaston,or Bayside (Bell Blvd) its only a short walk to Northern where you can
take a bus W/B. <<<
Yes...I do that at Bayside or Great Neck...but it's an extra $1.50 I shouldn't have to pay.
Can you take the bus all the way? I don't know about LIBus service so much.
LIBus is pretty much a joke service; they assume everyone drives, which is true, so it's a bare bones operations with the lines I take shutting down at 8; some of 'em even shut down at 5:30 on weekends.
[LIBus is pretty much a joke service; they assume everyone drives, which is true, so it's a bare bones operations with the lines I take shutting down at 8; some of 'em even shut down at 5:30 on weekends.]
Suffolk Transit is even worse, with no service at all on Sundays and major holidays.
I guess you could take the N23 from Port Washington to Northern Blvd and change for the N20 to the Broadway Station. But bring a copy of "War & Peace" or the "Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" plus a newspaper. When you finish one of those books at the Nassau/Queens border you can read the paper the rest of the way!!!!By the way, getting back to the original thread about Mineola, someone mentioned getting off the Hempstead Line @ Garden CITY. I'M sure you can find a bus North to Mineola. In any event if you take the train to Hempstead the N22 goes to Mineola from the terminal across the street. Not a long ride either. All you need is a pamphlet to read!!
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This morning I rode MBTA commuter rail train #806 (origin Providence) inbound from Mansfield to Boston/South Station. It's express from Mansfield to Back Bay (peak direction, rush hour trains continue to use the Main Line during construction). I had a great view standing at the railfan window of the control cab car. The consist was seven Kawasaki bi-levels, one MBB car (it's the one with restroom) and a GP40MC pushing.
Max speed was 86 (yes, eighty-six!) miles per hour going through Sharon Station, and again along the Southwest Corridor from Readville to Ruggles. [I find that speed amazing, given on my 'home' route, the Lowell Branch on the north side, MAS is just 65.]
There's full wire up over both tracks from Mansfield to Readville Junction, then just hardware in the air inbound to South Station. There's a lot of work to be done... possibly also contributing to the many-months delay in Acela service announced by AMTRAK yesterday.
They are wired on one track almost down to New Haven, and I've heard that the power is ON in Rhode Island!!!
A MAS of 86 is pretty cool - but the 90+ that MN does peak through larchmont is even more fun. I didn't believe it at first - then the engineer poped the door to the cab open - "come here for a second" I did "See? 90" Cool. I've clocked a few expresses at 95 or so. I wish I had the $$$ to take the Metroliner to DC, if only to experience it before it goes away!
Yeahbut... the 86 on my train this morning was on a diesel-pushed consist, not MU electric!
That's still not too shabby. Even the R-10s couldn't go that fast.
how about 105 in metroliner mu bewteen phily and newark? only a $4.00 surcharge!!!
On the first revenue Metroliner South(RR west) from New York, we hit 124 (Jan 1969) Gnarly!
Do I hear 150? Going once, going twice....
how about 170 mph in a moony 201 at 5500 feet over long island sound
Sold!!!
Taking a trip to Boston and Marblehead in October. One of my favorite towns, and I'm there every other year, just about. I usually stay in Brookline, so I'm familiar with the Green Line pretty much.
Anything really notable from an architectural/historical viewpoint that I should see on the red, blue or orange? To me, the Red is the most 'subwayish' of the bunch, but the Green, being the oldest and really an underground/surface trolley, is the most interesting.
Marblehead BTW has an abandoned trackway now used as a bike/footpath. At one time, there must have been a train stop there. Anyone know?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, my favorite line is the Green particularly the Riverside branch.
I always try and visit Boston in the fall while taking advantage of the beautiful change of the foliage as I drive up through Conneticut(but when in Boston the car gets put in long-term parking, and I take mass transit to get around town).
The finishing touch on my New England trip is the annual drive north on to visit the quaint, but eerie town of Salem. I have never been there in time for their famous Halloween festival, but heard it even rivals the Greenwich Village parade! (Many Boston area hotels are booked as far in advance as August for the Salem Halloween celebration).
Doug aka BMTman
>>>The finishing touch on my New England trip is the annual drive north on to visit the quaint, but eerie town of Salem. I have never been there in time for their famous Halloween festival, but heard it even rivals the Greenwich Village parade! (Many Boston area hotels are booked as far in advance as August for the Salem Halloween celebration). <<<<
I booked a room in Salem in May, got up there, and the deluge began. After an hour trying to walk around, and knowing the forecast for the duration of my stay wasn't much better, I said !@# this and went back to Flushing. Learned my lesson--visit in the fall!
When I am in Marblehead, I may take a bus over and visit Salem for a couple of hours again.
Take the Red Line to Ashmont, then board a PCC car for the wonderful Ashmpont-Mattapan high speed trolley. Maybe a 12 minute ride, but private r.o.w, quaint station stops, and unique terminal stations at both ends. Once the Newark PCCs depart, these will be the only PCCs left on the east coast.
Return to central Boston and take the Blue Line to the end of the line (Suffolk Downs). Another unique line - a conventional high platform MU subway, but the cars switch from 3d rail to overhead once the tracks emerge from tunnels and travel on the surface. The surface r.o.w. is the abandoned route of the old Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn RR, which quit around 1941.
The Orange Line is really a new route that replaced its older, predecessor elevated routes in the 1970's and 1980's, with the exception of the central Boston tunnel under Washington Street which dates from 1908. The route from Back Bay to Forest Hills is unusual because it parallels the Amtrak northeast corridor.
I agree with Andy that the Blue line is a must for railfans. There are transverse cabs, but windows so the railfan can watch the tracks and the operator. It is also quite a pretty ride.
Take the train all the way to Wonderland. The last few stations on the line (after Orient Heights I think) have all been recently redone and are looking very nice. Some nice ceramic tile work at Beachmont.
The red line is rather boring for the most part, but do take it up to Harvard. You get a nice ride accross the Charles River and the underground bus / trolleybus loop at Harvard station is interesting. It is also a very interesting area to walk around. As mentioned earlier the Mattapan - Ashmont trolley is a railfan must.
The Orange line is not very interesting from a railfan perspective. But when I was there in late July, they were putting up wire over the commuter rail tracks which parallel the orange line tracks south of downtown.
And do go to Salem. It is a pretty town. And I noticed that in one part of town there were streetcar rails popping through the street.
So it looks like the Red Line to Mattapan-Ashmont and the blue line north to Wonderland are the ones to see. Does the red line hit any tough neighborhoods in its southern stretch?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Digressing a bit ... I was looking at the MBTA web site today and they have information on each station on the line. Some (bot not all) of the station descriptions have photographs, a couple of scrolls down so you don't see them when the page first comes up; a lot of them are exterior shots but some are of the equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Red line is pretty safe in the southern area. My last trip to Boston I stayed at a hotel, I forget what town exactly, but the closest stations were Quincy Adams and Quincy Center (that's "quinzy" for you out of towners). Very safe.
Check out our Boston pages for some line-by-line guides and pictures.
-Dave
You get kind of jealous when you read about all the construction they're doing in Boston. Moving the Central Artery and green line underground.
We'll be debating the 2nd Avenue subway for five years and then we'll get a half a!@#d solution. They're still not sure we'll have a new Penn Station yet, either.
Just do it...
Elect Tip O'Neil and you can have anything you need. Oops he retired.
He also died.
Oh, well
You are right but Tips tap is still flowing $$$ to Boston
My advice about the red line, stear clear of like the ashmont line. it goes through some rough places if you are a tourist. like if you down blue hill ave, well that's meaningless if you aren't from here, you hit mattapan square. it's where the light rail starts. And ashmont isn't a great place for tourists either. If i were a tourist, i wouldn't want to be there. the braintree line is harmless after jfk/umass.
In march, i was with my father and we were driving from a party on ave. U and we had to get to near court street. my father's friend told us to go down ocean parkway. We went down ocean ave because we saw ocean and figured we were right. My dad is the biggest greenhorn anyway. so we were driving along and ended up in the middle of flatbush. it's kinda the same thing. except we were in a car as opposed to a subway.
Thanx,
Matt
I'm planning on driving to the Quincy Adams station (looks from the map like it has good freeway access) and taking the red line in to town. Any information on the parking situation there? Web site indicates there will be a charge, but does the garage fill up at a particular time or can one just show up, pay, and park whenever?
Thanks in advance for any help...
I'm not sure if it fills up on weekday mornings, but I've never had a problem during the evening or on a weekend. The fare is $2.50 to park. By the way, Braintree, a few exits further south on Route 3, has a large garage as well.
The southern garages and parking lots next to the Red Line Stations do fill up fairly early on weekdays, especially the largest and southernmost one in Braintree. It receives cars from the South Shore and Cape Cod. The North Quincy and Wollaston ones may be better but after 8 AM it is often dicey.
Weekends...no problems.
By the way, a new hotel has opened in the past couple of months within walking distance of the JFK/UMass Red Line stop, the first above-ground station on the Red Line. There is a low price Suisse Chalet motel that is farther away , but they do provide shuttle service to JFK/UMass.
I still think the best hotel in Boston for transit fans is the one adjacent to Riverside yard in Newton with rooms overlooking the station and complex, as well as being directly off I-95 at the Grove St. (Newton) exit.
The JFK exhibit neasr UMASS is definitely something you must see while visiting Boston.
Also, if you are a serious brewery-tour aficianado, I highly recommend the Samuel Adams Brewery Tour. I forget the stop, but you can get there by taking the Orange line southboud (I recall it is a stop or two away from Roxbury -- a neighborhood associated with high crime stats -- but I had no trouble going there during the daytime.
Maybe Todd can give better details on stations, etc.?
Doug aka BMTman
I noticed another post about the Transit Musuem's Archives, I am planning a trip back to NY for the Thanksgiving holiday and was wondering what the policies are? And what type of info is in the archives? I am mainly intersted in streetcar and elevated info for modeling purposes
Thanks
If the Transit Museum follows through with their current plans the Museum, including the archives, will be closed for renovation at that time. Although no definate dates have been announced, as far as I know, it will be closed for approximately six months beginning in mid-October.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's the link to the official AMTRAK press release. Note they allege that electric service will begin in the NYC-Boston corridor in January, reducing travel time on those trains to less than four hours.
Too bad. I only go between DC and NY so my trip is only susposed to be 18 minutes shorter. Does anyone know if the Expresses between DC and NY stop in Philly?
What I would like to know is where did the people who designed this train go to school? Based on what I've read in the papers they didn't use any common sense. Who ok'd the final plans?
From what I have read, truck hunting problems are very common on this type of equipment, being operated at high speed. They often need to work this type of bug out. Read about the introduction of any train, or for that matter any large engineering project (Windows 95...) and you will find that many of them encounter a lot of snags as they are being introduced.
I'm frustrated by this too, but put it in perspective. Amtrak tried for a rather aggressive schedule, and their suppliers could not meet it. One could say that Amtrak should have anticipated the problems and padded the schedule. But deadlines motivate people, and if amtrak had scheduled the acela to come on board in March '00, perhaps we would be reading about these problems in December.
At least they are trying to get it right before they bring it out for revenue service. Also, keep in mind that Amtrak is getting penalty payments since their suppliers did not hold the schedule. Don't know if they will cover lost revenue, though.
The real question is whether they will get this problem fixed quickly (probably) and whether other problems will then crop up (???). And will they have real service going by late 2000, as the schedule calls for?
Those who refuse to learn from history...Metroliner history rears its ugly head. The Pennsy jacked up the speed of the Afternoon Congresional in Oct 67 in lieu of the delayed liners. much as ATK has announced the Acela Regional 2 a day meedium speed trains for January.
Currently Metro North FL9 2013 is at the North White Plains NY paint shop being repainted into the full New York Central ligtning stripe scheme. The second unit to appear in lightning stripes will be 2012, not 2007. Both units will operate on a shuttle passenger train during the Peekskill NY 100th anniversary celebration on October 2 & 3. The shuttle train will operate to Yonkers and return. When they are out of the paint shop or a schedule becomes available I'll post it......Mark
Will these 2 FL-9's stay in the NYC lightning stripe scheme after the celebration?
Just got finished looking at the Manhattan Bridge thread. Why don't they run the N thru the Montague tunnel AND express up Broadway? When both sides of the bridge were closed middays in fall 1995, the N ran local up 4th av., and I transferred at DeKalb to a Q going thru Montague and then to Queensbridge via B'way express. MTA should do this for the N...what do you think, or why not?
It has to do with the distance between trains after 57th street. If the N is express you basically end up with the same situation as most of the buses, where there are trains in close succession followed by long delays where no trains arrive at all.
[ It has to do with the distance between trains after 57th street. If
the N is express you basically end up with the same situation as most
of the buses, where there are trains in close succession followed by
long delays where no trains arrive at all. ]
Of course, the latter is the situation that currently exists. That's why they're the never and rarely.
(gee, I'm in a bitter mood this evening..).
Actually it is possible but is challenging for the motormen to carry out. The trains would have a maiximum speed (which would probably be very low) and if they went at that speed the whole way up Broadway, they could come at the right frequencies along 60th Street. But if a train goes just a little too fast or a little too slow, it messes everything up.
The N would have to merge with the R before 57th St. It increases the possibility of delays which would make any time savings moot. The Q, on the other hand, would be a logical choice because it can be turned at 57th St. or continue via 63rd St., which is tied to the express tracks.
You want even spacing of N & R trains at stations all the way from Pacific St. St. Brooklyn to Lexington Ave. Manhattan where they share the same trackage. On paper, this happens with both running local. If you have the N running express from Canal St. to 57 St., the N would have a 5 minute reduction in running time vs. the R. This means is after they come together again at 57/7, you would have both services back-to-back, followed by a gap in service. Same goes for Brooklyn bound: they would be evenly spaced at 57/7, but with the reduced running time for the N, they would be back-to-back at Canal St., followed a gap in service.
Unfortunatley, even running them local all the way leads to gaps in service. Whenever I use the NR in Manhattan going downtown I usually have to wait 7-8 minutes for a packed N train, with a nearly empty R train right behind it.
If memory serves the Sea Beach Man the Broadway Express (Sea Beach in Brooklyn) was an express train. Why they made it into a local escapes me. When I was in New York last month, the West End ran on the Sea Beach express tracks from Coney Island to 36th Street. Why couldn't the Sea Beach do that? It does run express and skips 53rd and 45th Street stops, so I would think it's possible. The Manhattan Bridge work on the south side has taken an inordinate amount of time. Someone should get on the ball and fix that problem because this has gone on for over nine years. I'd like to see my favorite train run express again as it did when I was a kid. Damn! There I go on that nostalgic kick again. But, then again, I have very nice
memories about the Sea Beach---aka Broadway Express that isn't.
You're not the only one who thinks what the TA has done to the Fourth Avenue service is atrocious. But you're talking about a Brooklyn line, and a one-time pride-of-the-system BMT line, and that gives two strikes. Throw in the Manhattan Bridge and you've got a third. Both Fourth Avenue and Broadway have had their night service cut 75% by the TA.
Normal Sea Beach service until the TA started its 'improvements' got you from 59th Street in Brooklyn to 57th Street in Manhattan in 7 stops (6 during the morning rush hour, when they skipped 36th also).
Now it's 26 stops. And they have the gall to say the service is better. Even in midnight hours, you could frequently catch a local you might have missed without having to wait another 20 minutes for the next one. There's also the physical convenience of not having toslide back and forth an additional 19 times with all those extra stops--most riders couldn't care less that it may take only 15 minutes longer or 25 minutes or whatever--they don't like the constant stopping and starting and sliding.
If I were still living in the City, I think I'd try to run for mayor on the platform of taking back our subways and making them a service, not a numbers-crunchers' game.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well said Big Ed. The fact that neither of us live in the city saves us extra frustration. I have to tell you, though, that while I visited New York I was really ticked off to see what they've done to the Sea Beach. The TA has to be made up of a bunch of morons.
I'm just a silly Broadway Local.
N Broadway Local
9/5/99
Yes Broadway BMT service is bad enough,but I just thought of something.The Times Square station complex is now being renovated. Without express service they can run all serice on a given express track and redo all the tile work on the local platform just like they did at 34th St and 14th St. Try doing that with extra service such as B's,D's and Q's running express because they closed the northside Manhattan bridge tracks.I guess there is a method to their madness!!
Bill Newkirked
If the N still terminated at 57th St. the way it used to, it could certainly switch over south of Prince St. and have a nice express run up Broadway. Since it now continues to Astoria via the 60th St. tunnel, and since those tunnel tracks are tied to the Broadway local tracks, as is the Montague St. tunnel, and since the Manhattan Bridge south side tracks are closed, well, you get the picture.
I have nice memories of the N as well, in particular standing at Union Square and waiting for a train of R-32s marked "N-57th Street" to glide in on the express track. When we got home on one particular Saturday in 1967, which would have been the first or second time we transferred from the Canarsie to the Broadway line, I imitated that N train all evening long.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Now I'm convinced I have a blood brother on this website. Since I'm a little older my memories go back further. The Sea Beach (Broadway Express) used to go from there to Coney Island. When I was a kid a bunch of us would each other from behind and we would immitate different subway trains as we went into cellars, underground courtyards and the like. I would wear a #4 on my polo shirt, which was what the Sea Beach was in the late 1940's and early 50's and I couldn't wait to be up front as ten or twelve of us would play this fun game. I wonder why kids today don't have the fun we did.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Now I'm convinced I have a blood brother on this website. Since I'm a little older my memories go back further. The Sea Beach (Broadway Express) used to go from there to Coney Island. When I was a kid a bunch of us would hold each other from behind and we would immitate different subway trains as we went into cellars, underground courtyards and the like. I would wear a #4 on my polo shirt, which was what the Sea Beach was in the late 1940's and early 50's and I couldn't wait to be up front as ten or twelve of us would play this fun game. I wonder why kids today don't have the fun we did.
In my opinion, having the old system of each system having its own way of naming its lines was to confusing, even when they were separate. For instance, there might be 2 X trains, one on the IRT, one on BMT. You never know which one he's talking about. This system is fine, numbers are A Division, A-H is B Division I, and J-Z is B Division II.
The gap in service I was talking about would be caused by even spacing at the beginning, N going express to reduce running time vs. the R, so when they come together again, the N would be right behind the R. The gap you are talking about is not scheduled. The schedules provide for even spacing. You are talking on time performance for the N which is dismal. Remember the TA runs a paper railroad! Based on your senario, in that case that particular N should go express (battery run or skip) in order for it to make up some time. In all likelihood, there is another N behind that empty R which can pick up those passengers desiring the N at the local stops.
Sorry Bill but your idea will never fly and you know why? Because it makes some sense. I couldn't believe the lapses in time and passenger service when I was in New York last month. Some R trains in Brooklyn were empty while the N (my personal favorite) was packed to the gills. Why's that? Doesn't anyone have any sway over the TA? They must have some people on it that have a modicum of intellegence.
The people I really feel for are those of us online who live in NYC and have to deal with all that nonsense. Maybe the best deal for the TA would be for all of us to "get a rope".
Thanks everyone for info and opinions! Another question: when the 63rd St. tunnel is connected to the Queens Blvd. line how will B'way local and express service be impacted?
Again, thanks.
Apparantly, not much at the beginning. The E/F will likely remain as they are in Queens, the N will still go to Astoria and the R will go to Continental just as they do now, while the Q will replace the G as the local in Queens and then run via 63rd St. to Brighton Beach.
When (and if) they get the Manhattan Bridge reopened, then there may be some changes in both Broadway and Sixth Ave. service.
That doesn't make much sense - the Q would be express in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and local in Queens, and the F would be local in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and express in Queens, with both trains running on either the same or paralell lines the whole way! Isn't there some way to rationalize the system, so that you don't have the trains switching roles?
subfan
Your asking for rationality out of the MTA?
When they built the 63rd St. tunnel, the idea was to tie it into the LIRR and run a super-express to either Forest Hills or Jamaica. When that fell through and they were stuck with the tunnel to nowhere, they came up with the idea of tying it into the existing Queens Blvd. line. The only problem is the track layout allows only Sixth Ave. local trains through 53rd, while local or expresses can go through 63rd. At the other end, the new tracks will connect with both the local and express, but moving the F to local service would cause unnecessary switching delays at Queens Plaza, unless both the F and Q are run through 63rd St., and the 53rd St. tunnel is left to be served only by the E train.
Do that and the Q could run express in Queens and Manhattan and the F could run local in both boroughs, but you would screw the G riders even more than planned, since they could only use the E for the Court Square transfer, while QP would be served by just the E and R lines.
I don't know - would switching problems at QP really be that bad, since the G wouldn't stop there any more? The R would be the only train that would be "cut off" by an F switching to the local tracks, so any delay shouldn't be that bad. Also, by running the F local, G riders wanting to continue via the Queens Blvd. local would only have to make one switcc once, not twice.
Hey Subfan---your frustration sounds very familiar to me because I have the same feeling. The Q and the F switching between local and express expresses perfectly why the TA has to be run by a pack of morons. There is still no due date for the completion of the Manhattan Bridge work and the Sea Beach (Broadway Express) is not an express in the locality where it's called the Broadway Express, namely Manhattan. By the way, I spent 25 minutes last month waiting for the N train in Brooklyn while five R trains came whizzing by. What's the story on that? I'll bet the TA doesn't have a clue why this happened nor to they seem to give a damn. Whose idea was it to
create this monster in the first place?
Just got finished looking at the Manhattan Bridge thread. Why don't they run the N thru the Montague tunnel AND express up Broadway? When both sides of the bridge were closed middays in fall 1995, the N ran local up 4th av., and I transferred at DeKalb to a Q going thru Montague and then to Queensbridge via B'way express. MTA should do this for the N...what do you think, or why not?
(P.S.: If this gets posted twice I sincerely apologize.)
Apology accepted.
The other day, I had the opportunity to go east early, and I happened to end up taking 660 from Penn to Jamaica. I thought, hmm, I think this is the Bilevel train, but it turned out to be served by a MU train.
The bilevels met us in Jamaica. People asked the crew what happened to them, but the crew didn't seem to know. I'm guessing it's the typical 3rd rail power collection problems..
Anyways, what I did notice, though was the condition of the C1 coaches. Firstly, they were a toaster oven. Hot as heck in there. Almost as hot as the set of Metra Bilevels I boarded at IRM, when they had been sitting out in the sun all day, with no power, when it was about 100F outside. (okay, not _that_ hot!).
Besides that, they were filthy. I don't mean filthy like the MU cars, but positively nauseating. The stairways had so much dirt on them caked up that you couldn't even recognize the material underneath.
Is that what awaits us with the C3's, once the smell of new vinyl wears off?
I remember what the C-1s were like from their maiden voyage (during hurricane Bob no less!) and what the C-3s are like now is what the C-1s were like then. Quiet, clean, smooth riding. Not that the C-1s aren't quieter than what they replaced but they are certainly noisier now than they had been many years ago.
As for cleanliness, I've already seen some C-3s that are absolutely disgusting. Not from trash left behind by lazy commuters but the floors were just downright muddy from rainstorms - two weeks earlier. At least the C-3s can be put through the car washers to keep the outsides clean. Everytime they did that with the C-1s they were out of service for a few days until they dried out!
Occasionally (OK, maybe more like REGULARLY) MUs are used to bring passengers to Jamaica where the C-1s are waiting. The unnofficial word I've gotten from Morris Park employees is that when the engines need to spend time in Morris Park they often won't make it back to Penn in time for their regular trip without delaying other peak eastbound service.
Funny thing about the prototypes. They still need maintenance (oh boy do they!) but they must be able to run their scheduled routes since there is no other suitable equipment to take their place (hopefully this is to change in another 2 weeks or so). I've seen them deadheading from one end of the line to the other all the time overnight just for maintenance. Hopefully this too may stop with the recent opening of the new Port Jeff yard & maintenance facility.
The Arrow and Comet coaches have controls like elevators?
Turn the handle to the left to go back and right to go foward.
There is only one brake handle for air and dynamic?
I used to remember if I am correct that there used to be two holes under the speed controller. What are those holes for? I always though
they were key holes.
Where is the deadman on these cars?
I know on NJT Arrows they do have as you have said elevator type controls....left for forward and right for reverse....As for the Comets (mainly CometIV) they possese the throttle which the operator pulls back for forward and probably a switch (I haven't noticed it) for reverse. On the Arrows the brake is on the right and the TO pulls it towards himself (it hinges horizontally and moves in a counter-clockwise motion)I belive the dynamic and air brake are both operated by this handle..on the Comet it's placed next to the throttle on it right, it's moved forward to apply them and like the Arrows i belive both the dynamic and air brakes are both operated by this handle. As for the key holes I beleive they are use to complete the circut in what ever cab is being used as the head end. I know there is 2 and at the head end it's placed in the right hole. This is all from my observations and i could be wrong but I belive I'm right. hope this helps
AJ
Arrows are different from the coaches. The controller has
the four positions from center:
Coast
Minimum power
Medium power
Full Power.
Since it's AC traction, the power can be held in first
point. They kept the three point control so they could
stil be MU'd with the older Arrow II's
Center is off, and is also the deadmans position if the
brakes are released, and you don't have your foot on the
deadman's pedal. Moving the controller to the right gives
foward power and to the left reverse.
The plug holes are for control, without it the cab signals
and radio, etc. won't work. Not to mention the motors.
The second plug hole is for overloads, but only for DC
cars. The Arrow III's re-used he old controllers, even
though they are AC, so the reset on them does nothing.
The plug looks a little like the R-9 electric brake plug, and hangs from a chain connected to the controller handle.
The brakes are combined electro pnumatic/dynamic.
operation of the valve is a lot like the subway, except in
that it's a standard RR type brake pipe reduction system.
It's even the same handle as ours. When I was a car inspector there, I used my old TA brake handles to be different. The rubber was blue or black. NJT gave out ones with red rubber.
For emergencies, the N2a coupler has an adapter to MCB (knuckles) and there is a hose with a glad hand for the brake pipe. Any diesel can pull an MU train in a pinch. ALP-44 for that matter.
The Comet's are different. They have a throttle with 8 points and are meant to MU control standard locomtives. Idle at the window, puling toward you increases power. There is an "ignition key" of sorts. It also controls Fwd/Rev, as well as cab signal, radio, etc.
The braking is remarkably similar to the pre war transit equipment. A direct release brake pipe reduction system. The Comet has the same type valve as the diesel, and consequently the same handle. It operates as a non self lapping valve. Bleed a little BP pressure. Lap. Vent a little more, lap. Electric holding, and relase to graduate off to a stop.
Hope this answers yor question.
I might add, the controller is almost identical to the older PRR MP-54s MUs, the LIRR MP-54s, and the Septa equipment. Minor diffs is that the LIRR ones were modified at some point to use a handle for cutting the controller in, out, and resetting it. Also, the MP-54 will dump the brakes if the handle is let go, no matter what, and there is no over ride pedal. The interesting thing is, the MP-54s were Westinghouse or Brown Boveri, and the Arrows were equipped origionally with GE (but are now ABB). The handles for each are diferent, but interchangeable (the older ones fit in the newer ones, and hopefully vise versa).
It's not a particularly common controller type, I'm only aware of ex PRR equipment and a few BMT cars that use it.
[It's not a particularly common controller type, I'm only aware of ex PRR equipment and a few BMT cars that use it.]
The Reading Company MU cars used the same type of "elevator" control handle that the PRR MP54's used. The location of the controller was to the left side of the engineman and the brake handle mounted to the right of the controller stand.
On the old RDG MU's, holding down the controller handle was not necessary if the engineman had his foot on the dealman petal. The holes, as mentioned before, were for setting/resetting the control. There were two holes located directly down from where the control handle fit in. When the controller was slipped into the controller, there was a wing-nut that you turned to hold the controller handle in place.
Of course, when the Budd Silverliner and GE Silverliner equipment came along, the same same control was used.
I have a set of tools, controller and air-brake handle, along with the control plug, in my collection. I was fortunate enough to be a friend with a Reading Company engineer, who before he passed away, made to me a gift of one of the sets he had in his possession. He kept the set that had been his fathers and passed on to me the set that had been his.
I know that the RDG required each engineer to pay a deposit on a set of tools when they were "loaned" to the man. As I recall, it was a quite hefty sum in those days, for some reason $100 sticks out in my mind. I guess there weren't many "lost" sets floating around because of this.
Jim K.
Chicago
It's not a particularly common controller type, I'm only aware of ex PRR equipment and a few
BMT cars that use it.
I know of at least one other oddball use of that flop-over
controller: an order of 4 cars for the Fort Wayne and Wabash
Interurban. #504 is in the collection of the Illinois Ry Museum.
The Discovery channel just did a story on the subway contruction project and mentioned a man named Moses Eps,or (Epps)or ?
They said that he lit a candle while sitting next to dynamite and caused the biggest explosion in NYC history..it happened where Grand Central is now.
I can not find anything on the Net about Him?
Any help?
Correct spelling?
Thanks, Mary Kulp
kulphunt1@cs.com
In the A&E show "Empire Beneath the Streets", there is a 15 second segment about the gentleman. They refer to the event as City Hall to Grand Central in 15 seconds. There is also a bit about him in the special TV Show, "River of Steel". In both, they show a semi-humerous video clip about him.
If you could get the book "The Subway" by Stan Fischler it tells the story on pgs 47-48. Five people at the nearby Murray Hill Hotel were killed, 180 injured. Epps escaped with minor bruises and the IRT tunnel wasn't badly damaged. He had left the tunnel for a break after lighting the candle. It happened on 1/27/02.
I asked a question about Comet controls on NJ transit. I forgot to mention something. When I was riding back from Suffern, NY a few years
ago, I watch the T/O operate the train. This is what he did,
First, he applied the brakes
Second, he lag
Third he released the brakes completely before the stop.
The air guage fell to 0 psi.
The brakes held and slowed the train to a complete stop.
Someone said that the brakes were electric hold. Can someone explain the braking proceedure for NJT trains?
Does anyone know exactly how the R110As got into Flushing for testing? I know that the Queensboro Crossover to the N was used, but how else did it get there?
Queensboro is the only crossover from Division B to Division A line. Also we did talk about this post couple week ago.
Peace Out
Meaney
> Queensboro is the only crossover from Division B to Division A line.
No it isn't. Read the faq. http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/interconn.html. Queensboro is however the only connetion between the #7 and ANY other line, of any division, AND it's the only interconnection not in a yard.
> Also we did talk about this post couple week ago.
This much is true. You should be able to find the discussion of this within the last 2 weeks posts.
-Dave
I really apologize, but could someone direct me to the exact posts?
I'm confused - where is there a connection between the 2/5 and the IND where the N line will eventually be reached?
CLick on "Search MEssages" on the main index page, scroll down to "List only messages containing Any of these keywords" and type R110A in the box.
As for how it got there, here's a possible scenario:
1. Depart 239th St. yard south on the 2/5
2. Pass thru 125th St., change ends, depart wrong-rail north onto southbound #4 and cross over bet. 125th and Grand Councourse.
4. Head north to Concourse/Jerome Yard, pass thru it and depart southbound on the Concourse IND.
5. Cross over and change ends south of 47th/50th Rockefeller Center. and proceed to Lexington Ave on the 63rd St line
6. Change ends and cross over to south of 57th St. on the Broadway line
7. Change ends and cross over and you're in the 60th St. tunnel to Queensborough Plaza.
There's other ways. Look at the track maps and the FAQ to find them for yourself.
Thanks for one possible combination.
I'll look for others.
I saw just now on UPN 9 News a report saying that the new DE30AC engines (number 417 profiled here) and the C3 bilevel equipment cab cars are distracting neighbors living near the tracks because their whistles are more highly pitched than the old 50's era trains. The report was made in Sayville.
Have any of you heard the new whistle from the outside? What do you think?
There was a very long thread about this topic in the NY Railfan forum in railroad.net. The webmaster deleted the whole thread because the original poster put as his EMail address ThomasPrendergast@lirr.org. The whistles seem much louder and the computer can only do it at one decible level, not like the diesels that can progressively go from soft to loud. Try standing under the underpass at Mineola when the engineer blows it, even at very slow speeds.
[ Have any of you heard the new whistle from the outside? What do you
think? ]
I think everyone, passengers, nearby residents, _AND_ train crews agree that their way too damned loud. I haven't found one person who didn't yet.
According to a LIRR spokesperson, they are investigating the 'problem'. Here's what has been reported so far. The DE30AC and the GP38 have almost identical horns. The difference is on the GP-38, the horn valve is purely mechanical, making the regulation of the air volume possible. On the DE30AC, the horn button activates a solenoid valve, electrically. That solenoid valve is either fully open or fully closed. Therefore, on te GEEP38, the horn volume could be regulated to some extent while on the DE30s, this is not possible. Incidently, the fereral standard is 96db for the horn,, if my memory is correct. Both the Geeps and the DE30s exceed that level.
Isnt the idea of a train horn/whistle to warn that a train is approaching? if people object to the sound of trains passing their propertty why did they purchase in the first place? sounds illogical to me...
9/4/99
Although this comment may not wash with those living close to the ROW or yard, but wasn't the railroad there first before the was built??
Bill Newkirk
this is true the railroads have been around longer than present land owners, so if they purchased the homes or property nearby a railroad ROW and a train is blowing its horn its to warn of an approaching train. So I don't understand all the whining about the noise... would a softer sounding horn do the job? i'm not sure the person walking to close the tracks would hear it in time...
The older diesels can moderate their whistles, so if a train is going very slowly the whistle is very low. However the new bi-levels can't. If you get off a train and walk down the platform towards a crossing the train will start moving very slowly, the engineer will press the whistle and it will scare you half to death!!! I heard it under the Mineola Blvd overpass and it was deafening. I could imagine what its like waiting at a station like New Hyde Park with crossings on both sides.
That's the exact reason for all the complaining - the horns are simply unesecarrily loud.
I ask of anyone who diasagrees - what is a 69db horn going to do that an 85, or even 90 db WON'T?
All I know is motorists who collide with trains and survive say to the newspeople, "I didn't hear the horn. The lights weren't flashing and the gates didn't work". I think some people need a horn that could wake the dead because they play their car stereo full blast.
Usually only the first part of that sentence is true. They don't hear the horn because they are either on their cell phone, playing the steo too loud, or just ignore it. I have yet to hear about a single grade crossing accident where the crossings devices failed. Usually, it's the failure of the motorist.
-Hank
Unfortunately, many LIRR crossings have gates, lights and bells that constantly activate when there is no train approaching, especially after a thunderstorm. After a while, people got tired of the equipment crying "Wolf" and just drove right on through. I tried to report this occurrence at the Covert Avenue crossing on the Hempstead branch and was given a runaround between the LIRR, LILCO, NYSDOT and the Village of New Hyde Park, which takes up the northwest corner of the crossing. This situation continued for at least another week.
One day at the Park Avenue crossing in Huntington, the gates went up and the lights stopped flashing. Immediately, a diesel charged past.
Two cars came within a hair's breadth of being struck.
The moral of the story is to keep ones' ears open for train horns, because the crossing equipment cannot always be relied on. So maybe it IS a good thing the horns are so loud.
In this situation, if the RR and the local authorities drag their feet, I'd see whose attention I could grab at the FRA. They should be interested in failing equipment.
Exactly. The LIRR actually does work at keeping its protection working properly. The problem is that it is an old design that depends on track integrity to function properly. Soil/ground conditions on Long Island do not lend themselves to low maintenance roads and the LIRR is constantly faced with cracked welds, rails, or joiners which could uncover a problem ONLY when a physical train was passing through.
I'm not making excuses but rather pointing out that persistence is needed. While it may not be our direct responsibility to point out the LIRRs problems to itself, it would be negligence on our part if we chose to ignore this. There are constant problems with crossing gates on the LIRR and staying on their case over this one certainly wouldn't hurt.
Then, there are the pranksters (typically junior high or high school students) that just learn how to cause a gate to drop and just HAVE to do it for themselves. Not too smart. . .
Its actually very easy. Just close the circuit between the 2 rails of the same track. If you put a pipe across or eventhe 2 clamps of booster cables the gates should go down.
Reminds me of an incident in Morehead City, NC a few years back. A couple of enterprising kids used jumper cables to bridge the track and bring down the gates at one of the crossings in town to improve business at their lemonade stand. The RR was spending a small fortune trying to figure out what was wrong with the gates until a visiting railfan, down photographing the NC Ports FM units, spotted the kids one day and called the police.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All I know is motorists who collide with trains and urvive say to the newspeople, "I didn't hear the horn. The lights weren't flashing and the gates didn't work". I think some people need a horn that could wake the dead because they play their car stereo full blast.
I suspect the only fault in train-car incidents is to be found between the car driver's seat and the steering wheel.
You can lead a moron to knowledge but you can't make them think.
That is what we in the tech support field refer to as a 'PEBCAK'
-Hank :)
Be heard 100' furhter away, and thus 5 seconds sooner. (My numbers are not real, but you get the point)
-Hank
That's the exact reason for all the complaining - the horns are simply unesecarrily loud.
I ask of anyone who diasagrees - what is a 96db horn going to do that an 85, or even 90 db WON'T?
CORRECTION ON LAST SENTENCE.
"Wasn't the railroad there first before the HOUSE was built ??
Bill Newkirk
I heard it when a train was passing a trail used as a short cut by teens and it was deafenuing but i agree that louder horns do save live they just make the locals deaf and hey they chose to libve there
They chose to live there before these new trains!!!
The whistles on the old trains were loud enough to save lives. And if they wanted these trains to be this loud to save lives, how come its not nearly so loud in the cab on the other end when the train's going the other way & the locomotive is in the rear pushing??
Dear Sir Or Madam,
I wanted to say I love the riding the subway in manhattan
and quickly getting to my destination.
I can't believe how crowded the subway is.
I was wondering how many miles an hour the train went.
I think the MTA is one of the finest transportation systems
in the world. The people who run it do an excellent job!!
I look forward to hearing from you!!
raffy@optoline.net
The trains are set to go only 40 MPH but it can be affected by a grade.
Actually they really max out at 45 MPH! But I've seen some get up to 54 MPH without a grade!
Trevor
Do you think that this is a letter to a person? I wouldn't expect this from someone whose domain is OPTO line. Which one? I liked the old Franklin Avenue shuttle, or the Dyre Avenue line.
Fastest I've seen is 40-45 on the 2 between 42nd and 72nd Streets. The fastest I've been on anywhere was 75MPH (for a split second) on the Washingotn Metro's Red Line to Glenmont between Shady Grove and Rockville.
The fastest speed I've ever seen anywhere was 85 on a BART train in Oakland.
I was on a Blue line train in Chicago which got up to 65 in the median of the Kennedy Expressway.
Several #4 trains I've been on indicated 50 in the Joralemon St. tunnel.
New York's trains used to go faster in the olden days than they do now. When the R-10s ruled the roost on the A line, nothing could top them. They would roar along CPW at around a steady 50, although it seemed as though they were doing 60. Between Howard Beach and Broad Channel, I'll bet they actually got up to 60.
The A (Broad Channel/Howard) achieves speeds around 65 miles an hour. On than that, most lines travel at top speeds of 50 miles an hour.
I once saw the speed gauge of an R46 train on the R train reach 55 MPH going through the 60th St. tunnel.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no way that R44 equipment hits 65MPH under any circumstances. Not these days.
I hear the A to the Rockaways hits about 45 with a good wind behind it.
Back in the good old days, the motorman on an R10 A train told me he was doing about 55MPH when we were on the "Flats" about a mile before heading into Rockaway. But that's a thing of the past these days.
OTOH - I have heard of trains hitting 55 or 60 in 60 street tunnel.
Come on subtalkers - tell me if I'm wrong.
Absolutley not. I was on an R46 R train speeding towards Lexington Ave. in which the speedometer in the conductors cab reached 55MPH. Those slant R40's really JET between W4th St. and 34St.
even with an R68 if you do the grade timers correctly both north and southbound you could hit 55 mph...
The problem is, the R-68s have trouble climbing up tunnel grades without field shunting. It's like trying to climb a hill in fifth gear.
With all this talk about speeds in the 60th St. tunnel, one can only speculate on how the R-10s would have done. With their speed capability, I'll bet they could have hit 65-70.
What about the R38's, they never reached 55 miles an hour b/t board and howard?
N Broadway Line
Just wanted to let you guys know that we are powered up and running in Red Hook. The # 3 (built in 1897)has been on several test runs this week, on private right of way, and has been given a "tune up". We using commercial AC input power, no generator. Its not open to the public just yet, as were stringing wire down to the temporary end of track, but you may catch us running at the right hour. Dave was emailed a recent photo.
I added the picture to the Brooklyn Trolley Museum photo page, and here it is:
-Dave
MY QUESTION IS !!! ?????
is there anyone out there who has photographed any.....
MEXICO CITY SUBWAY CARS ???
the system was built in 1968 also i would like to know if
mexico city mexico has RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!
thank you very much for this excellent website!!!!
the reason i asked this question is because i never saw
ONE PICTURE of mexico cities subway system.. thank you.
salaam allah salamallah@yahoo,com.
9/3/99
I have a question on some subway signage and need help from anybody out there.Explain the meaning of these signs:
1)Car marker,usually (10) with black background,white number,with two diagonal yellow stripes.
2)Yellow sign in tunnel with letters "WD" and numbers underneath.
Your explanations are most welcome.
Bill Newkirk
WD is easy, there is a Wheel Detector that montiors train speed. I'm sure the WD was in a place where speed is restricted and there are Grade Timers (GT) as well.
And the car stop markers with yellow stripes indicate a train may only depart that station on a green aspect of the leaving signal. Yellow means hold in the station.
Someone asked questions about the use of blind train stops on the Williamsburg Bridge. There are two blind stop added to the Williamsburg Bridge for reverse running only. They are back to back with the normal direction signals to slow trains down by GT on the down sides of the bridge. They are J1-87 back to back with signal J1-88 and J2-136 back to back with signal J1-135. Blind stops are NOT used in a wheel detector application on the Williamsburg Bridge.
I wanted to know if any of our fellow SubTalkers knows if the MTA/NYCT owns one or more of those islands (actually, they're more like atolls) in Jamacia Bay where the Rockaway Line runs through.
There is one fairly large one just south of Broad Channel that leads to the swing bridge.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, AFAIK, under the Public Authorities Law which created the TA, I would be inclined to say The City of New York owns those islands--they were created by dredge and fill when the Rockaway subway line was built.
I don't think the principle of riparian rights (wherein soil deposited by a river or such on your land becomes yours) applies here, since the islands were created artificially.
But I assume since the bottom of the bay was probably city land, so are the islands.
Thanks, Paul. But I should have phrased the question better. For instance who holds jurisdiction over those atolls? With little else on them besides the dual tracks of the A Line and overrun with marshland foliage, I would assume that the upkeep (?) and such would either be that of the NYCT or perhaps even the US Department of the Interior (since Jamacia Bay rests within the greater confines of Gateway National Park).
Any thoughts/answers?
Doug aka BMTman
Not to hawk on this, but an "atoll" is an island formed by a volcano, something these islands do not have.
Now back to your regular programming ...
Actually, an atoll is an island or series of islands arranged in a ring shape so as to contain an "internal" body of water, known as the lagoon.
But I guess the relevance of this to transit is what an old Crusader Rabbit cartoon once mentioned, "Nothing Atoll". Oh yes, the cartoon also involved a castaway singer known as Robinson Caruso.
NO! An atoll is neither of those things. It's an island created by coral reefs that pierce the surface, usually they consist of "real" islands because you would need shallow water for coral reefs to form and go above water.
Atoll is what you pay to get into or out of New York City ;-)
You only pay atoll to enter NYC - the theory being when the cost of living here finally gets to you, you can leave without paying more.
My dictionary says that the coral reefs have to form a near ring that creates a lagoon to be called an atoll. What, therefore, is a lagoon?
Lagoon - n. 1.- a shallow lake or pond, especially one connected to a larger body of water.
2.- an area of shallow salt water separated from the sea by sand dunes.
3.- the area of water surrounded by an atoll, or circular coral reef.
Which brings up the point that the so-called "bays" on the south shore of Long Island (like Great South Bay) are actually lagoons (yes, really).
Do we have an ugly fish-like guy in Great South Lagoon? Yup! Carries off a few clammers every year.
Hey, maybe that island in Jamacia Bay is called 'Gilligan'? ;-)
As dumb as Gilligan was, he'd still be trapped on that island, even though there is a train that would take you off it right there. LOL
I'm just taking a semi-educated guess, Doug ...
Designation as National Park/Seashore/Whatever does not generally affect private ownership unless there is some strong need for condemnation, so I see no reason why the land isn't still city and the upkeep TA.
It could be a little scary, though, if Interior does have jurisdiction. Can you imagine the notice: "Rockaway Line Service Suspended During Seagull Mating Season" ;-)
Doug: The TA built two islands as part of the Rockaway Line reconstruction. By far the larger of these is called "The Embankment" and runs from the North Channel Bridge south. The smaller one that you refer to is called "Sand Island." I think Paul is right that these islands would be City property but it might be a moot point since much of that area comes under the National Parks Service now as part of the Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just a random thought; the Dept. of the Interior may own all of the island EXCEPT for the ROW. The city, state, and federal gov't swap land when a project requires it. Forinstance, a road on SI that was recently widened required the DOT to swap unused land with the Parks Dept, so the DOT could expand the road on the former Parks land, and Parks got DOT land that is not necessary for a ROW right now.
-Hank
Good point, Hank. Thanks.
This weekend, tomorrow I'll walk over to Canarsie Pier and ask the Ranger on duty if he is familiar with what jurisdication Gateway has on the various islands and (to avoid an onslaught of definitions) let's say, large landfilled marshes in Jamaica Bay.
Doug aka BMTman
By the way, on the subject of the R110A, are these cars equipped with dual trip cocks on all sides of the car? Otherwise, it would not be possible to transverse the B Division unless you stick an R33 single up at the front. I do know that they aren't compatible, so we won't see that kind of lashup.
-Stef
They're compatible now?
No, no. They aren't. It just something I was thinking about because no one ever bothered to put trip cocks on the both sides of the R62s, or previous generations of cars for that matter (except for the R33 single). The R110A has to have it on both sides in order to transverse the B Division. My question is what do you do with an IRT train that can't transverse the B Division (assuming that R33 singles aren't available)? A set of mainline R33s doesn't have any kind of protection from potential disasters on the B Division.
If for argument sake, the R62s were to go to Flushing tomorrow, they may as well be modified with dual trip cocks. Why didn't anyone think of this before hand? The R33 singles aren't always going to be around, so in the future this could be a potential problem for movement between the A and B divisions.
-Stef
Couple a work train to it or any other B Division train to it.
They put a transition car in front like on a work train with the engine at one end only.
Though last weekend a light engine came wrong rail through Kings Highway tripped the "NO KEY BY" on the Manhattan Express going towards Coney Island. Heck it just slowed down, then continued its slow crawl though the station.
Work crews love Kings Hwy on the Brighton, the Garbage train always stops for a while here (I love the smell early Sunday Morinings waiting for the D). There is a 24hr Dunkin Dounuts and bathrooms (Employees Only, I never see it unlocked)!!!
[ If for argument sake, the R62s were to go to Flushing tomorrow, they
may as well be modified with dual trip cocks. Why didn't anyone think
of this before hand? The R33 singles aren't always going to be around,
so in the future this could be a potential problem for movement
between the A and B divisions. ]
I dunno if nobody thought of this, but perhaps nobody though it needed to be done in advance. It seems to me that adding off-side tripcocks is a relatively minor retrofit -- something that would take about an hour or so per car in labor, plus parts (tubing, brackets, tripcocks).
Also, since the 62's are getting linked up, you'd only have to modify the end cars, and not all the intermediate cars. That alone means that only 1/5 the work need be done for the retrofit. Doing it in advance, just in case you might want to move the cars over would mean that you'd have ended up fitting all the cars, when not all of them needed it, with unnecessary equipment, subject to failure, etc.
They might also bring in a mixed bag of 5 car sets and single cars, so that they can run 11 car trains. In that case, they might end up just fitting the single cars with dual tripcocks, and using them to protect B division movements, just like the 33S's do now. They certainly should have enough equipment to do that once the 142s start arriving.
Thanks for the explanation. It's just my gut feeling that the cars should have come prepared with those dual trip cocks straight from the factory. I don't think that the modification should be necessary, but since no one thought of it, it has to be done.
Did you say mixed bag? You really have a good idea! 5 car sets and singles are a great combination, that's if somebody in the Division of Car Equipment doesn't decide to convert every last R62A that's out there into the ABBBA configuration.
-Stef
It was advertised to the public in 1904 that the subway could take you "15 Minutes from "City Hall to Harlem". I wonder if that is still true today. Also, there were songs written about the subway then.
Speaking of 1904....October 27th is approaching, which will mark 95 years of NYC subway service. Over the summer it was mentioned that the old lo-v train that ran on the shuttle for the 90th ann. will have a repeat performance this time around, but there were also concerns that this may not happen due to worries of vandalism. Any new info, or will we just have to wait and see? -Nick
At least if they do run the Lo-Vs on the shuttle this time, I will be there.
I'm not so sure if you could still get to Harlem from City Hall in 15 minutes, what with the way trains have been slowed down and all. But with only five express stops to 125th St., you might come close.
One such song was, I believe, "Down on the Subway".
Black armbands to mark the end of 95 years of overnight express service above 42nd Street would be an appropriate compliment to the TA's vision of New York transit. (No one has told me that there was a time when there wasn't all-night express service, even during the Depression. Am I wrong? If so, I'd appreciate seeing an authoritative source.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed; Best information I have drawing from both ERA and the Cunningham History of the system is that all night express service did not begin until May 10,1946. When it did #1 Broadway-7 Av Exp ran between 242 St and Flatbush or New Lots and #4 Lexington Av Exp ran between Woodlawn and Atlantic.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If that's the case, then black armbands observing the end of 53 years of all-night expresses on the West Side would be appropriate.
Isn't the D now the only night express (till next year, most likely)? There's something really strange when the newest and most unnecessary express tracks in midtown Manhattan are the only ones in use.
It's a real shame that the people in the City allow the TA to do whatever it damned well feels like doing. Isn't it obvious that the 75% Broadway (BMT) night service cut is the model for everything? It should be mandatory for every MTA manager and every politician in the City to have to use public transportation (and pay for it) after 10:00 p.m. and all day Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays no matter what the reason for the travel, and then maybe we'd see some changes for the better.
Even if it didn't succeed, people in Chicago at least bitched about the end of A/B express service. And people in San Francisco did succeed this year--they got their pro-people mayor to force Muni not to reduce F-line service in April--those people care about their transit. New Yorkers don't seem to.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
It wasn't the A train that got 24 hour express service first?
--Mark
Mark: Your right with the July 1 date. What we were speaking of was all night express service on the IRT Mains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Found it (Cunningham/Dehart History of the NY Subway, Part III):
July 1st, 1933 ... The "A" train went to 24 hour express service; at night it stopped at 155th St and 163rd St.
--Mark
Was that the time the CC provided exclusive service on the Concourse line?
Yes. The Concourse Line was served by C rush hour expresses between 205th At and Jay Street, and CC locals (didn't operate in rush hours) between 205th St and Chambers St / Hudson Terminal.
On December 15th, 1940, D express service ran between 205th St and Chambers St / Hudson Terminal at all times. CC locals ran rush hours only between Bedford Park Blvd and Chambers St.
--Mark
I wanted to look through my files before posting on the subject...
Anyway, it appears to me that the Broadway Express had 24-hour express service at least from 1924.
No wonder I'm such a subway nut. My birthday is October 27. Fortunately, I was not born in 1904 but 1940. Transpose those last two letters. Wierd isn't it? Well by now you know I'm a little wierd when it comes to the NY subway.
No, not weird. You share the same passion for the subway as do the rest of us Subtalkers.
Steve B 8thAVEXP: Thanks for the nod of support. Perhaps that is why I enjoy communicating so much with you guys on the subway website. I certainly feel there are rabid enthusiasts for the NYC Subway system, but I can't help feeling some of us on-line get a little over emotional about it----like me. But it's still great to be on line with all the guys.
Doubtful for the same reason there's no Lo-V fantrip. Electrical problems, asbestos and no resources to work on them.
--Mark
I took the 1/9 & 2/3 from Harlem to 34th for a dozen years ans 15 minutes is about right.
Mr t__:^)
As many of you may not be aware, Pittsburgh's Port Authority Transit will be removing its few remaining PCC's assigned currently to its 47D Drake line this upcoming Labor Day Weekend. The last scheduled revenue service runs should be this Saturday, September 4, 1999, and will be replaced by a new 35A Short Hills route equipped with new minivan-type bus units the following day.
It was said that the Drake line was averaging about 40-50 riders per day, and the 4000-series PCC's in use were becoming quite troublesome towards the end. By the way, the four remaining original vintage-1700 series PCC's (#1713, #1737, #1745, #1765) were reportedly withdrawn from service sometime after the summer of 1993, and I was very lucky to ride one of them, #1737, on that tiny line in that particular year before it was put into dead storage.
However, there will be a farewell fantrip with the Pittsburgh PCC's to be held by some private railfan group on Sunday, September 5 with the use of two chartered units to cover most of the entire system as possible. I do not have any further details of this trip, so I am hoping to hear from any the SubTalk posters to relay any information of this excursion's outcome (or even the last cars in actual revenue service) after this weekend.
Thanks in advance for any replies on this subject.
-William
I have heard the fan trip is sold out but that is not confimed.
If anyone rode today let us all know how the ride was and share pictures if you have them
Thanks
Joe
My memory had been pretty poor lately, but I still don't think I've ever asked this here before---does anyone know when the bright headlights in evidence on subway cars today became commonplace on subway rolling stock?
How did they install them, e.g., on the BMT standards, were they just bolted on?
Headlights came in during the early to mid-60's, as I recall.
On the Standards, they were bolted beneath the anticlimbers. I seem to recall the Q-types had them below the roof line.
Some equipment, such as the Triplexes, never had them.
The R-21s or R-22s were the first cars to come from the factory with headlights.
Of the R-1/9s, none of the R-1s ever had headlights; the R-4s were divided. The R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s did receive headlights.
R-22s, delivered in 1957 were the first to be delivered with headlights. As for the R-4s, cars 467 - 899 did get headlights installed in 1962.
(Source of the data is "Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawing Manual" 1998 edition)
Thanks for the clarification. I knew that not all of the R-4s received headlights. Most of the prewar A and D trains I rode on, and there weren't many, did not have headlights. Now THAT was a thrill!
One thing: in Under the Sidewalks of New York, there is a photo of presumably Concourse Yard circa 1972 which features CC trains of R-4s. There is an 800-series car, 810 or 811, which does not have headlights.
I downloaded NYCT's Kings Highway 2000 program. A nice program indeed. It's a good opportunity for someone to understand the mechanics of operating the subway system. Excellent! I've played Tower Operator and turned D trains around and sent them back in the opposite direction. The relay logic is rather complicated (what do those numbers mean on the signal charts?), so I'll leave it to someone like Mr. Train Control to figure it out.
Bernie Greenberg's subway simulator is quite good in giving someone a basic undertsanding of how to keep them trains running. The best thing that his program has and what the Kings Highway program lacks is the cab feature (you know, the Train Operator's view). As a train operator, I'd like to get an idea of what I'm looking at and which way I'm heading!!!!
-Stef
And Kings Hwy lacks the tower, they knocked it down (boo hooo)!!! And put up that box on stilts.
But it is a great game!!
Now only if I can write a layout for Signal Computer Consultants Train Dispatcher.....
I believe it. Movement on the Brighton Line from Stillwell Av to Prospect Park is controlled by Coney Island Master Tower.
Master Towers are the way to go, I guess.
-Stef
Train Dispatchor 2 Is a great game. Write now me and my son are designing the IRT Division. Since I have most of the IRT up and running the only one we didn't design yet is Westchester tower North of Elder Ave and the No.7 Line. I have to split the master towers because Track Builder game only allows 10 Stations per territory. My game have not been donated yet. As so as I complete the whole IRT it will be donated to the plublic.
Here are my following similation Towers.
Bronx
240 STREET- 242 Street to 168 Street.
Moshalu- Woodlawn to 170 Street
239 Street- 241 Street to Pelham Parkway
E 180 Street- Freeman St to pelham PKWAY WPR and to Dyre
WSQ South- Witlock to 3 Ave
Mott Ave- No.4 170 to 138 Street
No.2,5 Simpson ST to 149 St and 138 Street
All full yards are included
Manhattan
137 Street-168 to 103 Street
Lenox Tower- 148 Street to 110 Street
Times Square split as N +S
North 103 Street to 34 Street
South 28 Street to Courtland
Grand Central N + S
North 125 Street to 51 Street
South Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge including City Hall loop. Note once the No.6 Goes around the loop it doesn't stop at the stations.
Thats the same problem for my Bowling Green Territory.
It covers the No.1 Courtland St to South Ferry
No.2,3 from Park Place to Hoyt Street and No.4,5 from Fulton to South of HOYT.
Brooklyn.
ALL on the IRT Division.
In about a month I will try to donate this to the Train Dispatcher 2 Libery
Hey Dave, Where did you get Train Dispatcher 2 game?? from the store? Let me know where you get it. Thank You
Peace Out
Meaney
Go to www.signalcc.com you can download a semo game. There will also be a order form and then after you order what you want you will get a code where you will download the full game. Check the website for details.
Train Dispatcher homepage: www.signalcc.com
Thank You Dave
Peace Out
Meaney
They have many track districts available, including LIRR, Metro-North, old New Haven, NJ Transit, etc. that might be of interest to those of you in the NYC area. Plus there are track districts from all over the world as well.
If anyone have Train Dispatcher 2 and the LIRR track district, let me know if you'd like a set of LIRR train icons that I drew up for it. I'd be happy to send them along as soon as I get the requests (and no charge of course...)
Sounds great Dave, I've had Train Dispatcher since Commodore 64 days (ver1). Not many people to transit with it, but I do enjoy LIRRJAM and the NEC Trenton.
I look foward to seeing your creation!!
I will hopefully get them up my next mouth. I what to make sure there good enouth.
Where did you get the program from?
Frank
Hi Frank,
In order for you to download this program, you will need hyperteminal that comes with Windows 95/98 to dial the NYC Transit BBS site. The number is (212) 492-8069. Follow the instructions provided by the BBS site to download.
Download the program and tell the SubTalk Community what you think.
Enjoy!
-Stef
You can get it from this site now...
ftp://www.nycsubway.org/pub/subway/software/khwy2000.zip
-Dave
Sorry, I didn't know. I went straight to NYCT's BBS board to download as soon as one of the SubTalk posters mentioned it.
-Stef
Thanks for mentioning my name. Yes, I do have it all figured out. First you need to read the Control Lines. The Control Lines defined which track circuits must be unoccupied for the signal to clear to yellow. The Manipulation Chart is a little more complicated. The X next to a signal indicated all routes that exit at that signal. The Forces and Locks column indicated which switches are operated by the defined route and then locked. The switches involved in these columns is always outside the route or approach signal area. I could go on and on explaining but maybe you should read the help section. What is Flashing Chart or Table. It defines the panel lights that will flash when a switch is locked due to overlap locking and a entrance pushbutton is depressed on the panel which conflicts with the switch that is locked. The signal locking that switch will also flash.
I could go into the relay nomenclature. V is involved with train stops, NVP normal stop repeater (train stop in the tripping position), RVP reverse stop repeater (train stop in the clear position) and many other relays. NWP and NWC indicates normal switch repeater relay and normal switch correspondence relay respectively.
COOL STUFF!!!
Nobody does it better than you to figure this stuff out - Thanks.
-Stef
I recently look over the pictures added to the Chicago transit section and had a question
One picture (Chi67) is identified as Division Station and there is no above ground Divison Station on the Cta or in Chicago for that matter.
There is a Red Line Subway station at Clark/Division and on the Blue Line to Ohare at Division/Milwaukee which is also a subway station. There are 3 station on the Blue Line to Ohare that this station could be, Damen, Western, and California. I could see how you could easily confuse one of these as Division, but no elevated station exsists at Division street.
Those are the only three stations that it could be, because that equipment only runs on the Blue, Red, and Purple Lines. Red and Purple between Howard and the Loop are Elevated, but have four tracks, this picture only has two. The Red is then at ground level and the Purple turns back around on the Loop.
I believe Eric Haas posted this picture. Eric, am I correct??? If you got confused, just tell me what line this picture is from and I can indentify it.
BJ
I just looked at the picture, and it's Damen/North on the Blue Line. The train coming into the station in the picture is a Blue Line train headed for O'Hare, so, as you say, there are only three possible stations on the Blue Line, Damen/North, Western, and California. The buildings in the background make me nearly certain that it is Damen/North.
Incidentally, while there is no Division "L" stop now -- as you say, Clark/Division (Red) and Division/Ashland (Blue) are subway stations -- there were decades ago. On what is now the Brown and Purple Lines south of Sedgwick station but north of Chicago/Franklin L station, there were stops at Schiller, Division, and Oak Streets. (Anyone know when these stations were closed?) The rumor is that they were eliminated because this portion of the line passes the infamous Cabrini-Green housing project and the only people getting on the trains there were groups of thugs who robbed passengers and then got off before the train reached the Loop. Does anyone know if this is true?
I would tend to think that Schiller and Oak would have been cut regardless of the quality of the neighborhood because in the late 1940s and early 1950s, CTA was dropping stations that weren't on main streets, such as Buena and Grace on either side of Sheridan Road station and Grand for its proximity to Merchandise Mart. In my opinion, these moves were service improvements and not cuts because they allowed trains to go faster by stopping only at the busy streets every half-mile (four blocks). These minor stations had low traffic and existed only because Chicago Rapid Transit was competing with Chicago Surface Lines for the same passengers. Once CTA was formed, a rational policy could be followed whereby buses carried people shorter distances while trains carried people faster over longer distances. All this, of course, doesn't explain why Division station was closed despite the fact that Division Street is a major thoroughfare.
Thanks, I'll correct the picture caption for that one..
-Dave
An excellent site to find out about these old L stations is Chicago-l.org. It is usually updated weekly, but hasn't been update since July 23 because the site owner is having problems with his service provider. Though, you can still e-mail and get an excellent responce. I e-mail the site once in a while and ( Graham Garfield is the name of the man who runs the site I believe) get excellent answers to my L questions.
From what I have heard, Cabrini is suppost to come down within the next 5 to 10 years and it will be very valuable land. The CTA is considering then putting an L station at Orleans and another intersecting street, maybe Division. I'm also not sure about between Sedgwick and Armitage, the Orleans stop would be between Chicago and Sedgwick.
I'm not quite sure about this, but Graham could inform you better then I can, just drop him an e-mail.
BJ
PS: Have you visited the Chicago/State Red Line station lately, just wondering how the work is going and what has been completed so far.
[All this, of course, doesn't explain why Division station was closed despite the fact that Division Street is a major thoroughfare.]
In 1949, as John explains, the Northside 'L' had many stations closed. What you need to keep in mind is that the CTA was also in "subway" mode at that time. The State-Division-Clybourn subways was only six years old. CTA policy at the time was to move as many riders as possible to the new route, thus, the North & Halsted and Division & Orleans stations were closed even though these two stations would logically fit into the "every four blocks" rule for subway spacing. North & Halsted was only a 1/2 block from the "new" North & Clybourn subway station. If you ride the 'L' today you can clearly see where the station was located just north of the "S" curve right over Halsted. This station was an "express" station and had island platforms so trains on all tracks could stop there. Today, the station would be welcomed back, I'm sure, by the many residents of the gentrified area of the Clybourn corrider and to the east. For those younger than 40, it is hard to believe that neighborhood was run down and not the best; however, who would have thought that $300,000 townhomes would be built within sight of Cabrini? The Division 'L' station suffered the same fate as North & Halsted, as it was located in close proximinty, four blocks, from the Clark/Division stop on the subway. Remember also, that streetcar service in the form of Lincoln-Wells & Lincoln-Larrabee was still available to the area.
There has been talk, I understand, that the Mart (CTA Headquarters) has gotten a brainstorm to plan a new station at Division/Orleans. This station would probably be added when the rebuilding of the Northside 'L' commences (when or if ever). The station would probably draw some ridership with the new construction going on in the area. One thing to remember is that many of the people moving into that area are owners of automobiles and may not avail themselves to the CTA service. Not everyone thinks of the CTA as an alternative to driving. The group of people who would be riders are being driven out of Cabrini-Green.
Jim K.
Chicago
This discussion of Division Street stations on Chicago's rapid transit system would not be complete without mention of the Division Street station on the original Metropolitan West Side 'L', served by Logan Square and Humboldt Park trains. This service lasted until 1951, when the Milwaukee Avenue subway opened, providing direct service to the Loop, in contrast to the roundabout route on the 'L'.
Does anyone know where I may view or copy the architechtural plans for the Franklin St Station refurbishment??
Don't you mean, Franklin Ave.?
Doug aka BMTman
He may mean Franklin Street (west side IRT). Some local business (as part of a zoning deal, I think) paid for a very fancy re-doing in the early 90's, complete with a street level kiosk on the uptown side.
Yes, Westside IRT.
What's the deal with the new track configuration at Essex St? The Queens bound local track is no longer connected to the bridge track. Is this permanent? What's the new exit-looking thing next to the tower? It looks inaccesable from where it is.
The track arrangement is as always. During the constrution, the old token booth next to the tower was re-opened and a temporary bridge placed across the track. This to faciltate access for the passengers transfering to the shuttlebus.
I believe there will be a G.O. tomorrow to completely restore the original function.
The new RTO pick for the combined IND/BMT went into effect
last Sunday. I decided to pick off the road and chose a
flagging slot.
Being that I've never done this before a few weeks ago,
it's the first time in a long while that I can honestly
say I'm excited about work. Also the first time in many
years that I feel like a rookie. There's so much to learn.
And as usual the TA doesn't train us very well. But
that's another subject.
Today we were on the Wille B. I stood over by the signals
that Dave was just mentioning: J1-87. The blind trips are
there, with signs and all. They were always there, just
now there's a sign telling you. The work is far from done.
But it's mostly house keeping.
The assignment was to babysit some engineers from Capitol
Project Management. They needed to inspect an area where
some steel gusseting sat rather high. It was feared that a
passing contact shoe sitting a little low would strike the
natrually grounded steel and cause an explosion and fire.
They had thought of this before hand, and the area does
have an insulated strip covering it. But Third rail
supervision isn't happy with it, so tonight(now actually)
a contractor, M-Track inc. will take care of it. The TA
will supply the materiel: $10,000 worth of fiberglass
board, and pay the contractor for the labor.
So much for the $3.5 Million bonus!
You guys know me. I don't give the TA any slack. But in
all fairness, they did a good job here. Quality
workmanship as far as I could see. The track was well
assembled. All the appropriate hardware in place: baskets
under the rail joints, all spikes and Pandrol clips, etc.
They even bonded the guard rail. Now I only walked about
half the bridge, so I can't say for the whole bridge. But
bar none, the TA does have the finest track. Our signals
may be antiquated, and our rolling stock, the laughing
stock. But of all the railroads I have worked on, or
ridden, no one beats our track.
LIRR: spiked wooden ties, some concrete. But only
recently. Alignment problems everywhere. Look at Queens
Interlocking.
MNCRR: Ever ride out of Grand Central?
Amtrak? 125 on the corridor, yes. But no guard rails, and
they still have ancient spiked and bolted rail on a lot of
one and four between NY and Trenton.
Now ours aint perfect. We still lag in new technology. We
don't use moveable frogs any where. Our hand throw
switches are rigid instead of the snap type, which can be
trailed through regardless of setting. The yards are
horrendous in some locations. 207th Yard still has it's
1932 track! And why no concrete ties on the Brighton or
out at the Rockaways?!
We still have very few alignment problems, and all our
curves and El structure has guard rail. Most every where
on the main lines is done with clips and continuous welded
rail. Derailments are almost unheard of.
The Willie B is done exactly to these standards. Brand new
quality fiberglass walk way(expensive) makes me feel safe.
I never liked waliking on the old wooden ones.
The rest of the bridge is done with the same attention to
detail. The steel work appears to have been done well. No
sloppy welds. The painting and signage, carpentry, all
deserves a hearty; WELL DONE!
Glad to see good work is possible in a public contract. But the real test is time.
Alignment problems at the Queens interlocking? Hell, ever look at the track at Mineola? The tracks through the station feature rotted ties, mud pumping up between ties in other places, no ballast, ties in mid air....
Or at least did as of a few weeks ago. I saw they were in fact working up by NHP - the number of ties maked with spray paint was amazing - I presume these all need to be replaced?
As for MN - yeah, evrrything leading out of GCT is pretty shitty, though the concrete everwhere else is nice. The platform tracks there are bad in lots of places too. BTW - I've heard the New Haven line has the worst interlockings of their entie system - anyone else know if this is true? Otherwise, the New Haven line's track, like a lot of Metro-North, makes the LIRR look bad.
Talk about bad tracks on the LIRR, from the platforms at Jamaica station you can see some cross-ties that are completely rotted through!
Well, I've started to put together a section about Amsterdam transit. You can check it out here. I haven't had a chance to put in photo captions or write the descriptions of the individual lines but I figured after the recent drama, you all might be interested in what goes on over there. I scanned 100 pictures so far with another carousel and a half of slides to wade thru (told you I take a lot of pictures.) Enjoy!
-Dave
And to think I didn't take a single streetcar photo when I was in Amsterdam. No excuses; I had a 35mm SLR and Kodachrome 64. The #13 line went right by our hotel; I'll have to dig out my trip diary and find the name of it.
I've done some more work to the glossary I wrote up, making it easier to read and navigate. David also has a copy in the FAQ section here, based on mine.
To check it out
home.att.net/~alabianca
As I was browsing through the messages here, a work train came by way of the 2/5 at Jackson Av heading south. Diesel 50 was on the point, pulling four flats, and not one, but two rider cars, RD326 and RD327. The rider cars are converted R12/14s. How often do you see a pair of rider cars travelling together, especially if their consecutive in numbering???? Gosh, it would have made a great snapshot.
This diesel seemed to carry on without too much difficulty.
If there had been hoppers on the train carrying ballast, then we would have seen a pair of diesels instead of one single diesel. As the Transportation Professional pointed out to me sometime ago (Hi Erik), the diesels aren't very powerful. These GE's are not as powerful as their counterparts on a railroad like CSX, but they're suitable for operations in the subway.
-Stef
Out of curiosity, could someone tell me the EXACT GE Model No. Of diesel No.50, foom that, I could calculate the tractive effort and determine its top speed. I own a 23 ton GE switcher and am very fascinated by small Erie products. this number would read like B-B 100/100 4GE747 or similar for an 8-wheel 50-ton unit with 4 GE 747 traction motors, this unit would be capable of producing 25,000 Lbs T.E. at a top speed of 30 mph
I wish I knew, but the only I can say about this unit is that it should only have 200 Horsepower in it's engine. Compare that to an electric steeple cab like GE-ALCO unit #5 at the NY Transit Museum, #5 has good tractive effort (pulling power). This loco has 800 Horsepower. This steeple cab will have no trouble pulling a fully loaded A train of 8 cars (at 75'). Then again, #5 was truly a freight locomotive pulling freight on the South Brooklyn Railroad. It wasn't until later years, that it actually operated as a TA locomotive.
-Stef
#50 - 53 are classified as R-37s. I'll give you the data listed in "Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawing" Book.
Diesel engine = Cummins NT380
4 traction motors = 5GE763A2
Turbocharger = T590
Gear ratio = 14.7:1
Total weight = 90,000 Lbs
Cost $79,515 in 1968
No info as to total HP speed or braking performance
On the side, the builders plate lists HP @ 335. Harry used to work Misc. I rode with him many a night. More than two or three cars they have a hard time on steep hills. The electric locomotives are actually stronger.
RD326 was formerly car #5831
RD327 was formerly car #5875
Steve, Do you know what these others were?
IR/OR715, 720, 721, 722, 723
(IR719 = 7444, and OR719 = 7337; are there more OR/IR pairs?)
RD323, 333,335, 337, 339, 343, 356, 359, 361 (These are the only ones I've ever seen; I'm sure there are there more)
RD336 is out there - she is a R15. Saw her last September working on the "B" line center track. She looks ok for her age.
Wayne
Dave, we must be on the same wavelength because I just sent you a tabe for X-referencing cars 1R711 - 1R723, 0R714 - 0R723, and RD317 - RD361 with their original car numbers. Perhaps you can post it as several people have asked me for this info.
Steve,
I just posted it. The page is at
Revenue & Rider Cars
-Dave
Great! I'll mark them all as work motors.
Question regarding RD317-320: are those Lo-Vs? If so, are they still on the property?
Wayne
I sent mail to Steve about that. I am pretty sure they are R44's, not Low-V's, based on some prior discussion here on SubTalk (plus the fact that TMNY's Low-v 5600 was said to be the last Low-v to leave the property other than the 5 museum cars. When I get his confirmation I'll update the list.
AFIK, excepting the WF Lo V @ CI and the four car set, there are no other Lo V's in the system. The 5600 at TMNY, was the last one to leave, following BERA's.
The cars on that list (were) are definitely Low-V's (I found a picture of one of them in RD service) but they must have left the property by now. So the question arises, how many other cars on that list are gone?
-Dave
You can cross off 0R711. R12/14s haven't worked the revenue collector in years.
As for the rider cars, the only car that should have gone to scrap at this point is R22 7338 (that is RD354).
Remember the accident in 1989 involving R62A #2256 at 103rd St? It collided with one of the revenue collectors. If someone knows exactly which Revenue Collector got smacked from behind, please post so note could be made on this list (R716 pair?).
-Stef
Speaking of work cars, what made the TA decide to scrap the wreck/derailment cars E/44 and E/45 R-12 series in the early '90s? Is the TA saving money by bringing wreck tools to a derailment site in a truck instead of the dolly purpose they provided?
I honestly don't know what happened. The only thing I can say was that at some point in time the TA got tired of R12/14 work motors and disposed of them. Bring derailment tools in a truck? Sounds like they wanted to save money. What's happening now with the revenue collectors? Someone had the idea to deliver the goods in an armored truck to some of the token booths at various stations. I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue collectors were eliminated outright. They might be old, but the revenue collectors got some mechanical upgrading along the way, eh? Then why should be disposed of? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!
By the way, I've never seen an R15 work motor. Why is that?
-Stef
[ By the way, I've never seen an R15 work motor. Why is that? ]
I saw a R-15 work car (dunno if it was a motor or just a rider) just about a week or so ago -- I think the friday after the Willy-B opened, on the J line. Can't miss those porthole windows on the doors.
I was actually thinking in the terms of whether or not there were motorized R15s in work service. There are, however, a few rider cars (for operation with diesels) out there.
-Stef
[ I was actually thinking in the terms of whether or not there were
motorized R15s in work service. There are, however, a few rider cars
(for operation with diesels) out there. ]
Have the current R-15 rider cars been de-motored, or is is just that they're never used for traction power.
All rider cars are demotored as far as I'm concerned. These cars cannot run under their own power. For that, what would be the point of having diesels, other than running in territory where power isn't available? These cars (The R Types that is) are heavy. Components were stripped to lighten the weight of the former passenger cars and make it all the more easier for the diesels to get around with their work trains.
-Stef
In the pic of 7459, there what appears to be a Slant R40, behind it. Under the picture, it says that it was at Corona Yard. Is there a Slant @ Corona?
3TM
Fulton St. Transfer to the A,C,J,M,Z,4, and 5 on the upper level. This is a 148 bound 3. The next station is Park Place-WTC. Transfer available to the A,C,E on the upper level. M9, M10, M22 on the upper level. Connection to the PATH train service. Stand clear.......
Caption is probably wrong. Must be Coney Island. But since Jason's not around much anymore, someone else will have to provide a positive ID.
-Dave
There are some subway connections that I wish NYCT had but they don't. However, if you have a daily/weekly/monthly pass, you can do it. Here is my list:
Junius St.(3) & Livonia Avenue (L)
Atlantic/Pacific (2,3,4,5,B,D,M,N,Q,R) & Lafayette (A,C) & Fulton (G)
Court Sq (G) & 45 Rd (7)
Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) & Queensboro Plaza (N,7)
Broadway (G) & Lorimer St (J)
Bowery (J) & Grand (B,D,Q)
Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A,C,G) and Hoyt (2,3)
Botanic Garden (S) & Franklin Ave (2,3,4,5) (Maybe after construction)
Bway Lafayette (B,D,F,Q) and UPTOWN Bleeker (6)
Any others???
Broadway-Lafayette to Prince Street on the Broadway BMT. The north end of the Prince Street platforms are probably within a few feet of the middle level of Broadway-Lafayette. It will never be built because the mezzanines on the west side of Broadway at Broadway-Lafayette are crew/technical areas that would probably be expensive to relocate and because it is redundent with Herald Square, Dekalb, and Jay-Lawrence (coming to a capital plan soon).
I think this is one of the closest non-transfers of non-parallel lines (as opposed to stations like 50 & Broadway and 49th & 7th or Astor and 8th).
Other possibilities, some of which are redundent with exisiting transfers, would be:
the two Rector Street stations (BMT & IRT)
WTC and Cortlandt Street (BMT)
the two Cortlandt Street stations (BMT & IRT)
Whitehall Street and Bowling Green
Broad Street and Wall Street (Lex IRT) (They are connected outside fare control. )
Broadway-Nassau-Fulton and Cortlandt Street (BMT) (though WTC is just as close!)
How 'bout a transfer from Bway/Laffayette to the Northbound Lexington Av line (Bleeker St). There already is a southbound transfer.
my transit buff page (Now-Vote for Hillary or Rudy)
Junius (3) and Livonia (L) is a natural point for a transfer.
However, if there were to be a transfer from Hoyt-Schermeerhorn (A/C/G) with Hoyt (2/3) then the Atlantic Ave./Lafayette would make things redundant. I would certainly prefer the transfer point at Hoyt since Atlantic is already a congested transfer hob during the rush hour periods.
Yes, when the Franklin Schuttle reopens there one of the improvements is going to be the transfer between IRT (2,3,4,5) and the shuttle via a walkway from the Botanic Garden station to the IRT Franklin Ave. station (westend of New Lots/Flatbush bound trains).
Doug aka BMTman
Aren't the Junius and Livonia stations on opposite sides of the Bay Ridge Row?? There is a pedestrian crossing over there which if I remember my days in the 73Pct was a favorite spot for muggers.
Yeah, which is probably why the NYCT has never installed a transfer point there. Why encourage criminal activity? (Well, they could have a cop or two stationed there during peak hours).
The New Lots Line (3) crosses over both the Bay Ridge ROW and the Canarsie Line (L) -- which runs parallel to the Bay Ridge -- at Livonia.
Doug aka BMTman
As I recall there was a transfer at that point for a very short time in the mid-1980s...discontinued for safety and crime reasons.
They must have used a block ticket. There is no evidence of such a transfer now.......
3TM
Chambers St. Transfer available to the 1 and 9 service across the platform making local stops to Franklin, Canal, Houston, and Christopher St. On the opposite platform, transfer is available to the 1 and 9 to South Ferry. On the upper level, transfer to the M22. This is a 3 making express stops to 96-Bway. The next express stop will be 14St. Transfer available to the F,L,1 and 9 service. Step in, Step on, Step off, Step out, Stand clear of the closing doors.
Is it possible to transfer from to/from the Shuttle if you are on the Manhattan-bound 2,3,4,5 platforms, or is there some other way to transfer from Manhattan-bound platform to New Lots/Flatbush bound platform without paying another fare?
Nick
When the shuttle reopens the transfer will be for both ways between Franklin IRT and Botanic Garden Shuttle. This transfer will be in the mezzanine of both stations.
--Junius St.(3) & Livonia Avenue (L)
I see no problem in creating a transfer there, but, is as someone pointed out, not a too savoury area to be at...
But, it provides open up new ways of getting to where you want to go. (JFK to Canarsie via B15, #3 and L in about 1/3 of time than Airport Shuttle Bus, A and L or Canarsie to Coney Island via #3, "S" Franklin (after sometime in October) and the D.
--Atlantic/Pacific (2,3,4,5,B,D,M,N,Q,R) & Lafayette (A,C) & Fulton (G)
--Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A,C,G) and Hoyt (2,3)
One or the other but not both, one makes the other redundant, but if the transfer was created @ Atlantic-Lafayette-Fulton, that would make a whopping 13 subway lines stopping at that hub, even more than Times Square (at 11 subway lines)
--Court Sq (G) & 45 Rd (7)
--Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) & Queensboro Plaza (N,7)
These two are probably redundant because of 74th/Broadway.
Botanic Garden (S) & Franklin Ave (2,3,4,5) (Maybe after construction)
--Bway Lafayette (B,D,F,Q) and UPTOWN Bleeker (6)
Was there a crossunder that may have been sealed off between Uptown and Downtown at Bleecker? How easy is it to create one?
--Broadway (G) & Lorimer St (J, M)
--Bowery (J, M) & Grand (B,D,Q)
Two of the most benefical ones to make...see nothing wrong with either one.
There has never been a crossunder at Bleecker. I don't know that ANY of the original IRT (Contract I) local stations had them, as originally built. Broadway-Lafayette on the BDFQ is very close to the south end of the southbound Bleecker platform so it wasn't difficult to make the connection, but an underpass between the northbound and southbound sides of Bleecker would have to connect the north end of the southbound platform and the south end of the northbound platform, due to the offset platforms at Bleecker - not an easy connection and probably not justifiable, given the traffic patterns. Anyone using a calendar-based Metrocard, however, can make the connection without extra cost simply by going up one flight to the street rather than down one flight to a passageway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The plan for Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker nortbound is to extend the northbound Bleecker platform southward to the East end of Broadwy-Lafayette and run stairs and escalators form the unused upper mezzanine at Bway-Laf. (the one that would go to the never opened, slabbed over entrance on the east side of Lafayette by the Puck Building) either directly to the two plaforms or to the lower mezzanine for a corridor connection to the in-sevice lower mezzanine above the middle of Bway-Laf. Since the ramps from the east lower mezzanine to the middle one were removed in the rehab, I suspect the plan is the former, to go directly down to the platform.
If we only had the station plans from the TA. They show all the unused corridors, mezzanines, ramps, stairs, and entrances.
[The plan for Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker nortbound is to extend the northbound Bleecker platform southward to the East end of Broadwy-Lafayette and run stairs and escalators form the unused upper mezzanine at Bway-Laf. (the one that would go to the never opened, slabbed over entrance on the east side of Lafayette by the Puck Building) either directly to the two plaforms or to the lower mezzanine for a corridor connection to the in-sevice lower mezzanine above the middle of Bway-Laf.]
I'm rather surprised that the MTA would consider building a transfer, given the increased usage of (and official policy in favor of) the unlimited-use MetroCards.
I have heard that it is absolutely in a capital plan, as is Jay-Lawrence. When (and whether) it will be done is another question. 72nd & Broadway has been in the "next" capital plan for a decade.
I believe the Bleeker connection would be valuable to BMT southern riders -- if the A and B tracks ever open again after closing. Transfering at street level means going up and down a couple of extra sets of stairs and crossing at a light. You could lose 5-8 minutes. The lower mezzanine could run right under the Lex if the northbound station was run further south.
It's hard to get to East Midtown from Brooklyn, and lots of people work there. There is capacity on the #6 northbound AM and southbound PM to take them there.
If the Manhattan Bridge goes down, the most important changes will be Jay -- DeKalb or -- if you are really ready to squeeze in for a horrid stop -- Jay -- Lawrence. That's probably the plan -- turn half the trains at DeKalb, run the other half through Montinue, start as many additional trains as you can express on the F direct from Church to Jay, and have people walk. Lose 25 gain 12 plus a walk? Sounds fair. It's only Brooklyn, after all.
I was at Junius AND Livonia back on July 21. There's an old mezzanine at the east end of Junius which could be reopened - it's less than 100 feet from the pedestrian overpass. The neighborhood's better than it used to be, but I still wouldn't want to go there at night.
Wayne
Not to be argumentative, but I didn't say the MTA should make these transfers free, but they are de facto free transfers if you have an all-day or weekly or monthly pass.
9/4/99
Picture yourself looking out the front window of a West End train leaving Ninth Avenue heading north to Manhattan. As your train descends down before you move left there are ramps that lead to 38th Street yard. Further down there are another set of ramps with no tracks on them. I heard years ago that those second set of ramps were for the 5th Ave/Culver service. Then things got cleared up when I was told those ramps were never used and 5th Ave/Culver trains used the first set of ramps (38th St yard leads) to eventually enter the 5th Ave el. My question is were those second set of ramps ever used and if not what was their propose use ??
Bill Newkirk
Those ramps you see w/o tracks are the former connections to the Fifth Ave. elevated lines that merged there many millenia ago.
9th Ave. is interesting because it is also the point where the SBK (what remains of it) stops running on it's private ROW and enters the subway system.
You might want to join some of your fellow SubTalkers on Saturday, September 18, at 39th Street and 3rd Ave. for a tour of the waterfront railroad area by Bush Terminal. The SBK trackage is a part of the tour. For more details check 'Upcoming Events' at the main page.
Doug aka BMTman
On Friday September 3, as i was traveling my neighborhood, i noticed at the #4 IRT and the B and D Train yards, they now have signs on them at the front gates. #4 train yard sign says, ''Jerome Ave Yard, Home of the #4 Train. Entrance at Paul Ave.'' This sign is at Van Cortland Ave and Jerome Ave.
D Train sign at Jerome Ave and 204th Street says, ''Concourse Yard, home of the D train.'' did not mention the B train.
If any of the good people of SubTalk live near a train yard, does your train yard have a sign on it?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Home of the #4 and B and D train yards.
I don't live near one but I went to the US Open and I know that the Corona Yard has a sign.
Peace Out
-Clayton
Corona is the "home of the #7 train".
Who puts those signs up anyway? The TA? The workers there?
Theres a sign on the street at 240 Yard that gives the street address and sez Ex. 240 Yard 5911 Broadway home of the No.1/9 Lines.
The "B"s are visitors to Concourse line - I believe their home base is Coney Island Yard. Some "B"s may lay up either on the center track in the Concourse Yard proper between shifts but their home, as is with the rest of the R68As, is CI.
Wayne
I believe that's correct, Wayne. BTW, when I return to work next week, I'll check the Canarsie yard for any signage and report my findings.
Doug aka BMTman
If you get off the Jackie Robinson (Interborough) Pkway at Bushwick as soon as you hit Bushwick there is a sign "Welcome to the East NY Yard, Home of the JZL trains"
I have seen this sign as well. It look pretty old.......
3TM
Hoyt/Bridge St-Fulton Mall. The next station is Borough Hall. Transfer is available to the M,N,R,4,and 5 trains. Stand clear......
I know that service was discontinued on the old West Hempstead-Mineola branch of the LIRR sometime in the 1940's. Does anyone know why the branch was discontinued and pulled up--it sure would be nice to be able to take a one seat ride today from Valley Stream to Mineola, or even to Oyster Bay!
Anyone here familiar enough with LIRR history to tell me why the line was pulled up?
It's a shame it was discontinued. According to an article in Newsday several months back, the Hempstead to Mineola run of LI Bus along with another North South run have replaced the Hempstead to Jamica run as the most widely used route. The Hempstead-Jamaica run was the perenial champ for 30 years. Shows how lifestyle patterns have changed. Too bad there are no major North-South Rail lines on LI and that if you want to go N?S you have to sling-shot to Jamaica
The section of track between Mineola and Garden City stayed in existence well into the 1960s. The six-way cross junction just north of Country Life Press was probably removed in the 1940s, scaled back to just turnouts. That would have made it impossible to go in a straight line from Mineola to West Hempstead. The stretch between West Hempstead and Country Life Press lay abandoned for a long time, and around 1960 or 1961, was finally dug up. I remember seeing crossing gates at Franklin Avenue and at Hempstead Turnpike, and, once, seeing a train cross Hempstead Turnpike near S.Klein's, this was back around 1959 or 1960.
Wayne
The ROW is still very much there, however. It's defined well enough to even view it from Terraserver. I was under the impression that it weas used for turning electrics at one time, but I've never heard of that - that's also why the Oyster Bay line has that short stretch of rail. BTW - the Mitchel field shuttle tracks are still there (but no third rail after the first 100 feet or so), they break off right past the graden city stop, as the tracks curve into country life press (by far the oddest station name on the LIRR). Last holdout for the MP-41 (the unknown MP-41). Alsao where some RDCs appeared back in the late 50's.
It's obvious how the ROW went to the Main Line. Ironically, part of it is now a parking lot for the AAA offices over there.
9/4/99
Wasn't Country Life Press a local newspaper ??
Bill Newkirk
No, It was a subsidiary of Doubleday Books. Doubleday had a large book factory adjacent to the CLP station. In fact, it was to service the employees at the factory that the station was built in 1911.
I thought Country Life Press was named after a dry cleaner!
Mike H
County Life Press has got to be my all time favorite railroad station name.
Sorry for the typo. Left off the "R".
It sure is distinctive. And pronuonceable, unlike about 1/2 of the stations on Septa :)
Does anyone know why the LIRR canned the service in the first place???
<<...as the tracks curve into country life press (by far the oddest station name on the LIRR). >>
And one of the odder stations as well. CLP is the only single track station on what is for all but probably a half-mile stretch a two track line. The ROW at the station is clearly wide enough for two tracks. Does anyone know whether it was a two track station back when you had to "Change at Country Life Press" for the train to Mitchell Field?
The ROW at Country Life Press station itself may be wide enough to support two tracks, but north of the station, where it crosses Chestnut Street it isn't, and going around the curve it isn't either. There's a building and a parking lot right in the elbow of the curve.
South of the station there's a one-track bridge over Meadow Street and the ROW is narrow there too.
I do believe the shuttles to Clinton left from the north end of the station. An old photo I have from a clipping kind of supports this - it dates from the 1940s and shows a two-car train, either an early MP-54 or an MP-41. It's one of Ron Ziel's pictures.
Wayne
It's an MP-41 - they ended their lifes on that line
Anyone know ANYTHING about those cars?
If I'm not mistaken, the MP41 was one of the first electric MU cars the Pennsy had. If its the car I'm thinking of, it was designed by Gibbs, and is essentially a Pennsy P-41 steam coach modified to contain motors and control package equipment. The same cars were used alot around suburban Philly, and on the West Jersey & Seashore.
That confirms what a now-retired LIRR motorman told me recently - that he remembered having to take a train from Valley Stream to Country Life Press, then reversing direction to get to Hempstead around 1958 or so.
I have some pictures of the old ROW from Mineola to West Hempstead at my LIRR History website, http://www.lirrhistory.com/minwhemp.html
Last I saw, the power lines that defined the ROW are still in existence, at least between West Hempstead and Country Life Press. These were unusual in that they were side-by-side poles with "X" braces between them. Not so sure about the Mineola-Garden City stretch - some portions may have been built on. I'll have to go back there and check it out.
Wayne
I remember the crossing at Hempstead Tnpk by Kleins & White Castle, but no gates.
While channel surfing last night, I watched the last 30 minutes of the movie (it was on HBO+ at 10 PM). There is a subway scene which is supposed to be Columbus Circle on the IRT. The window signs said
DYRE AVE, Brooklyn Bridge and EXP-Local, so we know that's wrong. Anybody konw anything ????
I haven't seen the movie; however, it's possible the train may be incorrectly marked. Movies with subway footage are notorious for incorrect train markings, with The Warriors topping them all in that department.
Steve,moving onto the Warriors (please forgive me). I have not yet figured out where the scene, where the guy skates down a ramp following our hero, was filmed. I have seached Union Square but no ramps there. Any ideas
Simon
Swindon UK
Sorry guys, I forgot to post this info the other day:
The Boston Rapid Transit Album by Bradley H. Clarke
Published in 1981 by the Boston Street Railway Association; PO Box 102 Cambridge, Massachusetts 02238-0102
The book is truly an albumn, since most photos are single shots that take up an entire page. Near the beginning are listings of the various lines and their histories as well as a Boston Transit Time-line of important events since the start of subway service.
I have had the book for a number of years, so I wouldn't know if the book is even still in print.
BTW, the cover features a color pic of Orange Line cars heading to the old Washington Street Elevated station just prior to it's demolition.
Good hunting!
Doug aka BMTman
About a week ago, someone commented that they hadn't
seen such an agreement of opinion of people
concerning Red Caboose. I wonder how people feel
about the MTA's Transit Transit show that appears
on Channel 25 on Saturdays at 3:30 PM , and at other
times on Cablevision. I find it too staged and too
goody two shoes ( is that an expression? ) It's too
upbeat, not depressing enough for my tastes. It might be better if the hosts could get into fights with each other, or just silently glare at each other when they're on an outing together. Anyway
what do you think?
9/4/99
Maybe your request can be fulfilled having Transit Transit produced in partnership with Jerry Springer and the World Wrestling Federation!
I'm surprised TRANSIT TRANSIT isn't situated in WALLA WALLA Washington! The good thing out here if you miss one episode one week or forget to set the VCR,you'll catch the same episode next week. For those out here in Nassau county it's on Channel 80 Wednesday nights at 8:00PM (Cablevision of Woodbury)
Bill Newkirk
What do I think?
I think Paul you have issues.
Enough said.
It is on Cablevison of NYC at 6pm Thursdays, a bad time for me. But when I do catch it, I do for the track side shots. Sometimes I turn off the sound!!!
It is a MTA PR snowJOB...
Wish they would show more operational stuff.
The bus competition was intresting but they didn't go into WHAT had to be done just that the did it.
Those of you who have read my postings know I do not wave the TA flag! I agree that the show is a syrupy love fest. They show the place like it is hunky-dory in the TA all the time. But I have seen a lot of good informative stuff. I think it is a Public Relations tool and nothing else. My question is this: what are the ratings and how much does it cost to produce this program? How much does it cost per viewer?
Since it is shown on Public Access Cable and is the only show I watch like anything close to regular on Public Access (I try to catch the Public Board of Ed meetings) it is hard to say about rating. Also that the same show is repeated the whole month does cut down costs.
This answers none of your questions, but visit their website...
Transit Transit
--Mike
I have seen this transit trabsit show, and i agree with paul C-49 Mack Bus. It is sometimes goody two shoes. This show should show the good and the bad in the NYC transit system, trains and buses.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Home of the #4 and B and D train Yards.
Vinny Voltage? Kind of reminds me of those question-and-answer features during football and hockey games which were hosted by, respectively, Tackles the dog and Peter Puck.
I've caught Transit Transit and the one put out by TrainLand/World.
Don't go out of my way to see each edition, but both have enough stuff that it keeps my interest.
Mr t__:^)
Since the TA is producing the show, are they really going to produce something that makes themselves look bad??????
The show would probably be better if it included panel discussions with "critics" such as the Straphangers, etc. Remember the joke about about optimists and pessimists -- Optimists think this is the best of all possible worlds, and Pessimists know it is? The show presents the optimistic side of this, the MTA Board the pessimist side.
When the mock up of the new IND equipment was on display up in Harlem, they had a crew there and the guy interviewd me. Don't know if it even go on the air, though I guess if I can make on TV, anything's possible.... :)
I also remember seeing the R-110 A (the IRT one). nobody could answer my questions about the various trucks they had near it (they sure didn't look like TA ones)
Yesterday, was i was on a CI bound N train, a F train was on the manhattan bound express track, going really fast. I couldnt see what any of the train numbers were or what the signs said, but does anybody know why the F train would be there?
laterz
blackdevl
Probably doing accelleration tests.
Hey Mike and Blackdevl: Couldn't the TA let the Sea Beach run acceleration tests on its tracks instead of importing the F train for such ridiculous experimentation. I still haven't heard a decent reason for the Sea Beach not being an Express train, especially since she shares tracks up to 59th street with the ponderous and boring R train. Maybe someone can clue me in.
I assume they were testing the R-46, which the N doesn't use. Why should they have to change the signs on the train? The N does run express from 59th to Pacific in Brooklyn. Since it still has to merge with the R, it eludes me why it can't run express in Manhattan. I guess since in Brooklyn no matter what they do the N and R would have to merge, while in Manhattan, no express service means no merging/diverging. It's also more likely that with 3 trains in the tunnel, the forcibly pathetic service levels would make it impossible to use a local station. But the tail ends of the N and the R in Brooklyn have to live with this garbage.
You probably have more passengers in Manhattan than you do between Pacific st and 59st.
Don't tell me the R-46s are being souped up.
Sorry to open up a new can of worms here, but....
It seems that certain stations are more unsavory and bad than others at certain times....
In my opinion, just about any station that lies in an industrial area can simply spook me out...I place a vote for a number of the #6 staions between 3 Av-138 St and Hunts Point Av, exclusive of those two.
Any other stations that could fit in the category (I know 75th Ave. (F) may be one of the candidates)?????
I might place a vote for some of the stations from Lafayette Ave. to Rockaway Ave. on the Fulton IND...remember the "Money Train" flaming?
Sorry again for opening yet another can of worms here....
Nick
9/4/99
Not to worry about opening up a can of worms. We should all be on the lookout and inform each other for our safety including those who carry and expose camera equipment.
Bill Newkirk
Hey Bill,
Yeah be on the lookout, or better yet, take along a railfan off-duty cop as chaperone!
Mike H
I would vote for the Fulton St station on the G, or most of any of the stations along the IND crosstown line for that matter. While attending Brooklyn Tech HS, I worked in the school's Dean's Office. Over those 4 years I remember seeing a lot of students coming in and reporting robberies and attempted robberies in and around that station(Fulton St station is on the same block as Bklyn Tech). The robberies usually took place in the late afternoon hours from 4:00-5:30 by kids from surrounding High Schools (mostly the delinquents from Sara J Hale HS which is being closed down by Rudy Crew). Two students last year, while on their way to the subway, were slashed across the face with a razor blade- leaving permanent scars.
The station started to improve during my senior because it was patrolled by 2-3 police officers in the mornings and afternoons, but nothing much has been done about making the streets around the station safer. Now instead of preying on students in the station, the thugs now prey on them in the streets.
David L.
Brooklyn Technical H.S.
Bio-Chemistry Major - Class of '99
yeah, i would also add DeKalb Ave for the D,M,N,R,Q and probably Lafayette Ave on the C. That whole neighborhood is crap. Theres always people getting mugged over there. Did you hear about rhe store owner who beat up some kids because he thought they were stealing from them?
laterz
blackdevl
145 Street on the 1/9 seems to be a haven for illegal/dangerous/shady activities.
4th Avenue and 9th Street has to be the worst in our part of Brooklyn -- all those passageways and blind turns. Several rapes there over the years.
Columbus Circle seems to be the spot where I've see the most private parts exposed for excretory purposes. I try to avoid it.
I've been silent on this topic so far.
I have been to all kinds of lovely stations in all parts of the City and never have had a problem. Took pictures in every station of the Fulton IND - no problem - did not get off at Franklin, Rockaway, Van Siclen, or Shepherd but got off at all the others. Took pictures, got off at every stop between 110th-Lenox and East 180th Street - no problem. Got off at and took pictures at every stop on the Crosstown between Hoyt and Court Square - no problem. Got off and took pictures at every single station on the "L", including the more scenic ones (like A.A., Sutter, Livonia and New Lots) - no problem.
Neighborhoods in many places are improving and crime is certainly down. This is not to paint a totally rosy picture - there are for sure drug locations and places where robbers frequent. Walk the footbridge between Junius and Livonia? Not a problem, at 3:45PM.
I do try and not go alone on my adventures, but when I do, I keep both eyes wide open and stay away from remote areas of stations etc.
The one problem? October 31, 1997 at 59th Street-Lexington Avenue. Fortunately, I had Uncle Charlie and Sgt. Pepper with me; the thug took off once Uncle Charlie showed his face.
Wayne
I also have had no problems in the stations or on the trains.
Sometimes you can't avoid being at certain stations at certain times.
I've felt uneasy alot of times- Aqueduct-N Conduit at 1am, 155 st on the C at 5am, Classon Avenue at 9pm. Sometimes it's good to take advantage of the off hour waiting areas and go with your gut.
How true. My feelings are that almost any neighborhood in the city is okay to venture in during daytime, but nighttime is another story. And of course desolate/poorly lit areas in any section of the city -- yes, even the burbs -- could be a potential crime location.
Enjoy riding and exploring the system, just use common sense when you do and you'll be fine.
Doug aka BMTman
While some stations obviously are more dangerous than others, it's important not to forget that crimes can occur anywhere and at any times (although the overall crime rate is very low, of course). The most notorious crime in recent years, the Kendra Webdale murder, occurred during the day in a station in a safe area on one of the safest lines (23rd Street on the N/R).
"While some stations obviously are more dangerous than others, it's important not to forget that crimes can occur anywhere and at any times (although the overall crime rate is very low, of course)."
Indeed. Here in Chicago a few days ago, a German tourist was slashed in an attack by a madman (it wasn't a holdup or such, the nut just walked up to the man and cut him) right in the Dearborn Street subway in the heart of the Loop and at the height of rush hour. Security caught the attacker immediately. To the rare credit of the local media, while the story got a lot of ink and airtime, it wasn't (mis)portrayed as a typical occurrence.
(Got your attention, eh?)
Today's mission was to get an altitude reading at Smith/9th Street for Peggy's database and the station-by-station write-up.
From work, I went to the Rock Center IND station, intent on catching an F. But lo-and-behold, there's a Slant R-40 F waiting for me! The express run from 34th to West 4th was as wonderful as ever, with a max speed of 47 mph, and total motion time of two minutes, eighteen seconds.
Over to the F for the ride to Smith/9th. The measurement? The station is eighty feet above street level, plus or minus ten feet.
{CORRECTED LAST POST FOR TYPE-O ... IT"S BEEN A LONG DAY!}
(Got your attention, eh?)
Today's mission was to get an altitude reading at Smith/9th Street for Peggy's database and the station-by-station write-up.
From work, I went to the Rock Center IND station, intent on catching an B. But lo-and-behold, there's a Slant R-40 F waiting for me! The express run from 34th to West 4th was as wonderful as ever, with a max speed of 47 mph, and total motion time of two minutes, eighteen seconds.
Over to the F for the ride to Smith/9th. The measurement? The station is eighty feet above street level, plus or minus ten feet.
Boy, the old fingers (and eyes!) are not working today. You all knew what I meant:
I was intent on catching the
F
But found a Slant-40
B.
whew. I'm glad the weather is coming out better today...
Yes there is one or two consist of Slant R40 B which only come out on the weekends.
I though for a minute that the R46 had gone somewhere and left the Queens IND open for reinvasion by the Slants. I remember when the Slants RULED the Queens IND, 1968 thru 1977.
Wayne
BTW, saw a slant running on the M yesterday.
They're still there? I thought with the Willy B reopening they'd have gone back to the "L". Some Slants have been plying the "M" since Willy B closed and no doubt they haven't gotten around to swapping them back.
Wayne
At this point, I don't see why they just don't send a slant over there when they need a train.
Good point - on the weekends, most of them are laid up and I don't think they're using the full fleet for the "Q" on the weekdays either.
Have they finished doing their preventive maintenance on them?
Wayne
I meant the E.N.Y cars.They should even run one on the J if they have to especially on weekends since the Z doesn't run.(They don't have Z signs in them).There were two instances where the M had R42 equipment running to Marcy ave. It was one train each instance with Myrtle ave signs.
How tough would it be to add "Z" to the curtain roll? Most of the front-end "Z" signs I've seen look like sideways "N"s painted brown. Only a few cars on the "Z" that I've seen actually have "Z"s that are the proper shape and size.
Wayne
Got a Slant on the 16:02 Stillwell Nancy Saturday. And many thanks to the TO who showed of the cab to my 6yr old Nephew who then "DROVE" the train while standing at the storm door.
The T/O explanied the Brake Handle and gauges to him, not that I was looking over their shoulders and slobering like some Subway Buff >G<.
Today we got 32's each way, my poor Nephew justs sees out the storm door (nothing like a slant) and the chain blocks some of his view.
I had the same headache on the Jamaica El as a child when they ran mixes of R16s and R27/30s. I was just too short to see out of the R16's round porthole storm window, but I was tall enough to see out of the R27/30's square one. I liked the R27/30's better - they screeched louder than the R16s and I got a big kick out of hearing the train screech, especially at Crescent and Cypress Hills, Alabama too. That sound is still music to my ears. A pox on those water-sprayers! Last really good one was back on August 14th, on a southbound "A" train of R38s between Chambers Street-H&M and Broadway-Nassau. A few passengers held their ears, but I drank it all in with a smile.
Wayne
Right now, my son is only tall enough to see out the front of the Slants, PATH trains and the LIRR's M-1s. As for the last named, you can never be sure when the front car of any LIRR train will be open to passengers, or if the crew will shoo you away and stand next to the engineer's cab chatting away with the engineer while blocking the front window. Too bad- the front window on the weekend Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon express was always my favorite.
Hopefully, the Redbirds will still be in service in a year when the lad will be tall enough for their windows. I imagine the 32s, 38s and 42s will be around for at least another decade or so. Unfortunately, the front windows of everything from the R-62 on forward have been obliterated by the cab.
Alot of them have "Z" pasted over V or K. You can tell that there is an orange or blue circle underneath.
So THAT's why the "Z" looks darker than the "J" or "M"! Thanks for the information.
Wayne
Same thing when the B made its debut in 1967. The R-32s assigned to that line had Bs pasted over their BB signs. This was just before the R-32s, R-38s, and R-16s were fitted with those multicolored route roller curtains.
After an eary meeting at Euston Station Rob Morel and myself moved onto Edgware via the Northern Line and bottles of Snapple. No 59's there so a swift return. Passed a Unit on the way back so we stopped off at Colindaleto wait for the returning 59. As the unit pulled in we took the opportunity of setting about it with the cameras before boarding to admire the poor internal condition. After several stops the train was halted by a need for a crew change only the relief guard had (as we overheard) not finished his breakfast so the train was held. While taking photos and basking in the hot sunny weather we were invited by the driver of a 95 stock train to join him in the cab.
After much deliberation (.3 milleseconds) we seized the opportunity
and enjoyed a stunning cab ride all the way to Warren Street via the maze of Camden Town.
The Central Line beckoned so via Tottenham Court Road we sped off to do the Hainault Loop and returning to central London for Lunch at The Subway Sandwich Bar. It took a twelve inch "sub" to move us onto the Piccadilly for a trip to Heathrow Airport and take hopefully travel on some un-modified 73 stock. Much to our supprise there were several of these units still around although our "express" run to Acton Town was in the modified version. A stop was made st Terminal 4
for refreshment before moving on to Terminals 1,2 3, for a ride back to town on the Heathrow Express. The station entrance is vast hole in the Ground leading down to two platforms in one of which stood our gleaming four car unit. At just over a dollar a minute or 66 pence per mile the trip is expensive. It is also one of the smoothest and comfortable rides around in super high tec units. Our return to
town was celebrated by more Snapple and to maintain the theme - Muffins.
All in all a great day and one that should be repeated
with hopefully a few more "subway friends".
Simon
Swindon UK
A ride in the cab!?! Smashing! If that had happened here in NYC, I would have thought I'd have died and gone to heaven. Alas, the best we can hope for here is one of the RF windows. The Redbirds show no sign of departing, despite the pending R142/R142A orders. And the remaining "B" division RF window units (R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42) are still plentiful.
You DID get my mail, no?
Wayne
I was supposed to be with them on that trip! :-( Wish I could have joined you guys...
Wayne, I got a cab ride in London on the Metropolitan line Chesham branch once, and in NYC, once in the R68's on the D along the Brighton line.
-Dave
If there was one spot in London in which I would kill for a cab ride, it would have to be along the original 1863 segment. I still kick myself for not having checked it out back in 1978.
If you want some pictures I should be able to mail them to you. You could always have another trip over and meet up with Rob and myself. You would be most welcome.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks for your kind invitation. I will definitely keep it in mind. If you have any photos of that Hammersmith section between Baker St. and Paddington, I would certainly be interested.
Steve, give me a few weeks and I will sort something out.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thank you so much. I'm curious as to how much of the original construction is still in place (iron girders, masonry, etc.) on the 1863 segment.
Message for Steve.....I have good personal contacts with the operating management of London Underground and if you care to leave a message at smith@sra.gov.uk I may be able (no promises) to arrange a Circle line cab ride. -
Do unto others ec - once had a cab ride CI to 179th St jamaica c/o MTA !
That would be SUPER!! Maybe the next time I go to Lithuania, I can fly through London and plan a longer stopover.
From the official Bulletin:
They go on sale 9/13/1999 at 7am. The stations (I have grouped by street name to save space)
96...1,2,3,9
86...1,9,B,C,4,5,6
79...1,9
72...1,2,3,9
81...B,C
77...6
50...1,9,C,E
47/50...B,D,F,Q
23...1,9
18...1,9
14...1,2,3,9,A,C,E,F
6 AV.L
Houston...1,9
Franklin ST..1,9
WTC/Chambers...1,2,3,9,A,C,E
Welcome back!
This is not mentioned in the station by station lists or in the FAQ.
Did you all know that there used to be a direct passenger car drop-off at the Union Turnpike stop on the queens blvd ind?
The Interborough Parkway (now Jackie Robinson) dives underneath queens blvd. and bisects the station mezzanine. The two inner lanes are the parkway and the two outerlanes are union turnpike. There were very sharp and quick turn-off's from the outerlanes. Cars would stop and drop off passengers directly into the station mezzanine.
This whole setup was removed a few years ago because it was unsafe to have cars stopping and starting in a very small space.
When I would return home from LGA, I passed that exit of the station many times. Is that exit open. I doubt it since there is no traffic there. Plus there is old sign with the E,F,G,R signs on them.
3TM
This Boro Hall/Court St/Joralemon St. Transfer available to the M,N,and R trains on the lower level. The 4 and 5 trains at the rear of the platform. On the street level, transfer is available to the B25, B26, B37, B38, B41, B45, B51, B52, and B65 buses. This is a manhattan bound 3 making local stops to Chambers. The next station will Clark St. Step in, step on, step off, step out, stand clear of the closing doors.........
There used to be a bus stop at that level as well as room for dropping off passengers by car. When going down the staircase from street level on Union Tpke., one walks past that area. They put a fence up so the vehicles cannot stop there any longer.
1. When was the last run of the R-16s? I assume they were replaced by the R-46 order. Why were these cars replaced at a relatively early age?
2. Why were the last R-30s retired in 1993, four years after the R-68s came in? Did the NYCTA have an excess of cars?
Thanks for the help.
No, it was the R-16's that were finally replaced by the R-68's. Then, wanting an entirely air conditioned fleet, they decided to get rid of the R-30's. This was no excess of cars, as no they were stretching out the remainder of the cars with service cuts.
There were R-16's running in passenger service (6398 among them) well into 1986. It wasn't until mid 87 that they were withdrawn from trash hauling duty as well. 6398 was a part of that last train. Amazingly enough, she was coupled to none other than 6397. Jim has all those #rs if anyone's interested.
I rode on an M train of R-16s in October of 1986, so that's a valid statement. They did seem a bit strange with their slanted door pockets. IIRC, the last R-16s were withdrawn in 1988 or so. There was an article in the Times in December of 1986 which chronicled the painful demise of 6321.
Interestingly, my sister has a interior photo of an R-16 which was taken by a photographer friend of hers. She had no idea that it was an R-16 until I told her; the slanted door pocket gave it away.
What happened to 6321?
6321 died a slow and painful death over a period of approximately one year. It suffered from a variety of maladies including blown motor/generator fuses, malfunctioning doors, weak acceleration, and finally dead motors due to deteriorated wiring. In one instance, the M train it was included in was dead and dark: seven of the eight cars had problems and the train never made it out of Fresh Pond Yard.
Once it was found to have deteriorated wiring, that was the last straw. 6321 was finally put out of its misery. The article made an interesting comment about the R-16s in general: they were the second oldest cars in the fleet and were "nothing to write home about and haven't been for some time". It also gave some MDBF intervals; at the top of the lemon list was an R-10 averaging - get this - 484 miles between breakdowns. Ouch! 6321 was at something like 1400-1600 miles. Over its 31-year life, it racked up 894,000 miles.
Now while some here have bragged about high MDBFs in Jamaica Barn, what are some of the problem cars around today, NOT including cars to be retired. 6398 has exceptional car body wiring, not including the retrofit door operator which you could tell was done by the TA with the lack of tie wraps and heat shrink tape. The junction boxes weatherproof seals kept the box so new, you can clearly see the colorcodes and wire numbers on the sleeves. Sounds like 6321 was the victim of ENY shoddy maintainance and too many modifications, Group box, MC and junction box conduits are easy to access and passing new wires should not be a problem. Remember car 9000 in the mid 1980's as it burned up with switch box fires after it was rebuilt many times. It wasn't until it got the SCM that the problem went away but I'd bet good money that contact tip inspection and simple preventative measures during inspection were not being taken seriously during the era that 6321 had to endure. If the EMS program was around in the '70s and '80s, it is possible that the R-27s that were painted red might have ran around a little longer than the three weeks that they did with that paint scheme.
I remember that some of the R-16s were on the EE and GG around 1969-70. Weren't they on both trains in the Queens Blvd. collision of May, 1970? The RR at that time was mostly R-27s/R-30s.
I do remember that Times article of 1986.
The two trains involved in the May 20, 1970 collision just west of Roosevelt Avenue were both "GG" trains. One was on the local track, the other was on the express track. The train on the local track was out of service, and was an R40M wearing post-brake test numbers. The lead car was #4501. It was being driven from the third unit with TA personnel to act as eyes from the first car. The train on the express track, in revenue service, and full of passengers, was an R16. The fifth car of this train, #6304, was hit by the lead car of the other train as it switched back to the local track. The R40M had gone past the red signal without realizing it, at less than 4MPH.
Car #6304 was pushed out of the consist and impacted the edge of the concrete curtain wall just to the left side of the storm door, shearing about forty feet off the side of the car. Two passengers were killed. R40M #4501 was badly damaged but salvaged using body parts from Slant R40 #4200 and a replacement of her bonnet, sign window, anticlimber and some interior parts. She remains in service to this day. R16 #6304 was beyond all hope of repair.
Wayne
And 6304 was heard to say, "Whew! At least it wasn't a BMT standard." Of course, the standard would have walked away with a few scrapes and bruises and been back in service the next day. There was a similar incident on the Mets in 1970 in which Jerry Koosman was struck in the mouth while running in the outfield by a line drive off the bat of another pitcher, Gary Gentry. Koosman had to have his jaws wired shut as a result, but kept his sense of humor by saying, "At least it wasn't a line drive from Donn Clendenon." True story.
Yesh, Donn Clendenon could smoke 'em out of Shea. Remember that key home run he hit in the World Series. It was a Moon Shot. Tommie Agee and Cleon Jones could hit 'em a country mile as well. Agee was particulary adept at knocking them into that little porch down the left field line.
Anyway, some of the Daily News and NY Times post-mortem photos of R16 #6304 show her at Jamaica-Yard, completely disemboweled down her left side, guts and wires hanging down from the ceiling, blower fans drooping where the ceiling support was ripped away, seats gone, doors gone, straps hanging at crazy angles, stanchions lying on the floor, linoleum tiles ripped up, etc. It is a miracle and an act of Divine Providence that no more than two were killed considering how the transverse seating areas were impacted.
A BMT Standard surely would have done worse damage. However, had anybody been sitting opposite #4501's cab, they would have been seriously injured if not killed, as the whole corner of the car caved in back to the #8 door.
You DO remember the fate that befell #6494, don't you?
Wayne
Clink hit three homers in the '69 series and was the MVP. You're probably referring to the one he hit in Game 5 after Cleon Jones was hit by a pitch on his shoe. I got home from school just in time to catch the ninth inning and saw Jones put away Davey Johnson's fly ball for the last out, and was late for a drum lesson because I had to watch the Shea field get all torn up.
IIRC, 6494 got into a fracas with a BMT standard and ended up with one end bashed in. Probably taunted the standard with "I've got bulkhead signs and you don't, nyah-nyah". To which the standard replied, "And you got that crappy GE stuff, ppbbbbb." "Oh yeah?" "Yeah."
BAMMMMM!!!!
Hold on. I'm confused. You and Wayne state that 6494 got hit by a BMT Standard, but Larry, Redbird R33 has a different story to tell. According to Redbird from a post several months back, 6494's life came to an end when the the car hit the bumping block on on one of the Nassau St turnback tracks south of Broad St. Who's telling the right story here?
The car that did get hit by a BMT Standard was R27 8217. AB Standard 2761 got the better of the R27 in their classic fight at Stillwell Av back in 1961. 8217 got crunched up one end and received 6494's good end, while the unused remainder of 6494 went to scrap.
Any Ideas???
Stef
Apparently 6398 was involved in some sort of fracas here. The evidence: A deep gouge in the car body near the roof line, a bent stirrup on the #2 end and a dent in the anti-climber on the #1 end.
Something happened in her carrer. I can't find out though. Does any one know?
Larry may be right. It's easy to assume that any car which got bashed in back then got into it with a BMT standard. The Triplexes minded their own business, except the two which duked it out at Stillwell Ave. in 1955.
Must have been one hell of a cataclysm!
And now for the world's heavyweight championship bout!
BMT Standard vs. Triplex
Steve B - did you hear that? King Kong vs. Godzilla - the Fight of the Century! In the red corner, weighing in at 270 tons, from Brooklyn New York, #6019-ABC and #6112-ABC, and in the blue corner, also from Brooklyn, New York, weighing in at 294 tons, #2390, 2391, and 2392. Gentlemen, start your motors!.
Wayne
More like Joe Frazier vs Muhammad Ali.
Nothing like a good old-fashioned subway demolition derby. How well did those cars do in reverse?
Stef: R-16 6494 was wrecked when it hit the bumper at Broad Street on Sept 26,1957. The damaged portion of the car was scrapped in Feb 1958.(This is from NYD Bulletin of Mar 61).
R-27 8217 collided with AB 2761 on July 24,1961 in the Coney Island Yard. At first they thought to send 8217 back to St Louis for rebuilding but in Feb 1962 it was decided to repair 8217 using the undamaged portion of 6494 which had not been scrapped.(NYD Bulletins Aug 61 and Feb 62).
Hope this clears up any confusion.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Speaking of collisions, anyone know why 3381 has an R-27 end welded to the number 2 end
Thanks. I'll amend my records to show this corrected info. Sometimes it's hard to keep all of this straight!
Wayne
Thank You for clearing that up!!!!
-Stef
I told you Larry was right. Still, I'll bet the other R-16s were saying, "Don't tell me you ran into a BMT standard!"
I've heard people refer to R16 #6321 before. Can anybody give me the gist of what happened to this poor subway car? Does it have some particularly nasty record that would even put the regular R16's to shame?
Back in 1984 my sister used to ride the J into Manhattan to her job. At this time about halk the line was R16. One week, every single morning she'd get an R16, and all 5 days she never made it past Eastern Pkwy because of some kind of malfunction. She finally gave up and let every single R16 J train pass, hoping for an R2730 or 42. In 1985 that got a bit hard, since the R27-30's disappeared for the most part. She'd always leave an hour early just to be sure she'd get to work on time.
Now that's pathetic.
I have that very NY Times article from December of 1986 entitled, "Requiem for a Subway Car, Age 31". By the time 6321 breathed its last, it had become "one of the biggest, if not the biggest, lemons in the car fleet". It got to the point where it was breaking down every couple of days, and even then it was being used as little as possible.
In 1988 ALL the R-16's were sitting in scrap lines. There
were around 12 in CIY, two at Canarsie, two at 36th and
the one at P.S. 248.
6389 was one of the ones at 36th and now is restored. 6339
and 6305 sit in front of CIOH awaiting their turn. They
are the other cars from Canarsie and 36th.
6421 was also locker car, but the desire to save a GE R-16
wasn't there. That car sat in CIY until 1995. Most of the
usable parts from it were saved for spares for the other
R-16's. (thank you Erik and Harold)
By summertime, 1988, the 12 scrap R-16's from the trash
train were taken away for scrap. But not before we had
stripped them. 6398 was moved over to 103 Tk in X yard.
Did it look odd next to all those R-46's. Man do I miss
that P wire.
But all in all, 1988 had no movement of R-16's except for
scrap moves.
The failure rate on those cars was terrible. No argument
there. But who's fault was that? It's a miracle they ran
at all! Open a controller, and look at the original 1955
hoses! Look at the contactors, burnt, pitted. And try and
wonder that any took power at all!
Of all those cars in CIY during 1987/88, NONE had 100%
working equipment. Even 6398 had it's faults. The motor
generator was blown. (the story of how we changed that in
the yard is amazing) 6397 had a bad compressor. 6335 was
ok, but had doors that wouldn't open. ALL had major rust.
Most had either big flats or thin wheels. It was a serious
triage just figuring which car we would select for
preservation. And it hurt to see those cars we stripped
take their final journey.
So if some of you guys have bad memories of the R-16,
don't blame a well designed car. Blame the TA for allowing
them to deteriorate to that level. Few other cars saw the
shift from one barn to another as often as they did. From
as many as three seperate shops. There would be periods as
long as 12-14 months between inspections. Parts shortages,
were yard masters would shuffle bad order cars into the
middle of a train, until they could be repaired. Only they
wouldn't be. So eventually a bad car woud resurface at a
operating position, to be removed from service YET AGAIN!
Amazingly enough, this still happens today occassionaly.
So leave the R-16 alone.
The car that you refer to is not 6389, but rather 6387 that was preserved and is currently at the Transit Museum. With the exception of a rust hole that was left unattended, I'd say that this R16 looks pretty good.
-Stef
Hi, everyone.
I am collecting New York Metrocards and have some for exchange. Even I have for exchange few from 1995.
9/4/99
For all of those you who remember,a train of R-16's was indefintely
laid up on the center tracks of the Jamaica line between Crescent St and Cypress Hills for MONTHS !! This is a section of the "el" that when going towards Jamaica takes a sharp left when leaving Crescent St,goes a few blocks and takes a sharp right into the "newer" extended
Jamaica line to 168th St. Those R-16's,possibly problematic G.E. cars were there for some time. The time frame was late 1970's or early 1980's. Anybody out there have any explanation for this ??
Bill Newkirk
When I lived near that el in the 1940's and 1950's that siding only had switches on the Fulton St end, and the siding was never ever used, the track was really rusty. It's hard to believe that R-16's were in long term storage on that poor old track. I actually lived right alongside that section of the el from 1942-1957 and the center track was just never used. I guess you realize that section was of the original el that was built before the turn of the century.
After the R-46's got their teething pains over with, the GE R-16's became extras. There were around 80 or so left in runnng condition. They were stored for long periods in odd places, that to keep them out of the way.
Yards and sidings, relay tracks, you name it. The old Nassau loop tracks. Outside Court St. Sea Beach 3 and 4. Some of the Westinghouse cars were laid over as well. 6398 spent a considerable amout of time in mothballs. The evidence is visible in several ways as Harry and I have been restoring the car.
Most of those R16's must have been used when the R27-30's were being overhauled and painted red. During 1985, the J line was almost entirely R16.
No way. Even if all 100 Westinghouse (6300's) were availiable, the J needs about 160 cars for full service (20 trains).
As I live by the J line, I remember quite well. Perhaps during rush-hours there were more cars of other types. But when I rode it, it was like every 3rd train was R16. Much more than in the previous few years, leading me to believe they were temporarily replacing the R2730's.
Lots were stored in Fresh Pond Yard as well on the higher numbered tracks. Eventually they were lugged off to Linden Yard to be scrapped. I became a motorman in 1981. When they got resurrected, I never saw a GE car on the road, but I did a yard move at ENYD with 6422 or 23 in the lead as a horse,
If the GEs were so unreliable, then why did the GE R-17s last until 1989?
I believe they used a different switch groiup than the R-16s
It had to do with maintainence. The R-17's had one barn. Generally, the 16 had to get swapped around from ENY to CI to Jamaica, and back. In those days that was a virtual death sentence for a car with a tricky propulsion system as the R-16 GE.
The 17 stayed put at E 180 or 239. So for the most they had better, more frequent inspections.
If ENY shop owns a car, and it's running on the GG, or the EE, you bet it's gonna get overlooked at Jamaica. I have the maintainence logs for 6398. In the late 60's and into the 70's, there are whole YEARS without inspections!
For those Metrocard collectors, I think there are two types of MILLENNIAL JOURNEYS 11th Centry "Crossing the channel to normady" (a real UGLY card) out there.
I have one with a VISA logo on it and one without. What gives?
9/4/99
I have noticed that the one with the VISA logo are chiefly available from most MVM's and the one without I purchased at the transit Museum gift shop. Why the two ?? Beats me!!
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, I just got hold of the VISA version. I haven't seen any others.
I do have four new MCs that just came on the scene.
2 are American Express ads -- one with John McEnroe; the other has two guys on a motorcycle.
Another is a Citibank ad encouraging students to apply for Mastercard.
Lastly is the very nice BLAZE card. It is a clever subway related ad for a youth-oriented ('hiphop'?) magazine. Each letter of BLAZE is spelled out with the use of the official NYCT Line indicator logos.
Doug aka BMTman
The non-Visa/non-Amex Millenial Journeys cards are available at the Transit Museum shops and stores/newstands/check cashing places. The Visa version of the first card is in MVMs now.
There are two other Amex US Open cards. One is Althea Gibson (Member since 83). I hear that one is Venus Williams (Member since 99) (For those infamiliar, see http://www.altheagibson.com/gallery.html). The only one I have been able find at Willets Point is the two guys on the motorcycle. I don't recognize them.
Where is BLAZE available? I found one about to months ago.
Also, can someone tell me how you post graphics (like the route logos) and links within messages? Thanks.
Marc, the BLAZE card I found discarded at a swipe-reader at the Jay Street station. Ditto for my AMEX cards.
I looked closely at the US Open card with the guys on the motorcycle. It is some kind of a 'gag' shot: I believe McEnroe is in the driver's seat, with (I'm guessing here) Sampras on the rear?
BTW, does anyone know if there are any other Student VISA MCs besides the "Lisa Parks" one?
Our resident MetroCard collector/expert, Thurston, should be able to help out with answers to some of our queries when he gets back from vacation.
Doug aka BMTman
Just picked up my first metrocard with an add, "Dial 101-6868" for 7.9 cents a minute. Picture of a women on it (don't know if she is famous). Welcome NYCTA ala Washington Metro.
According to the NY Times City Section Article on promotional Metrocards, it is the Jansen Brothers, Luke and Murphy. They are the goofballs that have been known to wear football jerseys and carry on on the court. One plays both left and right handed. They add some color to tennis, but they are not that good. I think they usually don't make it past the quarter finals in doubles.
The article is pretty inetersting and talks about how the cards are used for to target certain markets.
It also says that the Amex cards were all along the 7 Line. I tried a number of stations on three occasions in the past 10 days and only found the Jansen Brothers card sold at Willets Point. I found the McEnroe card on a reader at W4 and a station agent at Union Square gave me a spare Althea Gibson.
My CitiBank cards are Lisa Parks, too.
But, I know from Thurston's post that there are three Continental cards again. Subway-Buff posted the stations, starting 9/13.
Marc, et, al,
Re Am Exp '83, i.e. Althea Gibson ... don't have an extra right now, but will keep you in mind.
Also the 4 R: 83; 78=John McEnroe; 97=Janson bro & 99=Venus Williams,
since I'm in College Point, near Main Street I may get a few more Am Express cards.
Re: Continental ... 7 have been prev. issued (4/98, 4/99, 5/99 & 6/99) I suspect the three comming out "Mid-Sept" will be unique.
Also three more are planned for "Mid-Oct"
Re: CitiBank ... the email a friend got from the "Prod Devel" group indicated only one card.
Re: "PT-1", i.e. 101-6868 ... was supose to be four cards, but eye have only seen the one with the woman in the blue shirt.
Re: Millennial Journeys ... A friend copied the promo from the TA site. Indicates that the next, 13th, should have a photo of a horse. Series goes thru 20th, i.e. ten cards.
Eye still need 11th & 12th with VISA logo & have a few w/out to trade
BTW, out-of-towners ... would love to trade some NYC cards for yours.
And have a few sets of the four Yankee MCs waiting for you !
Mr t__:^)
Mr t__:^)
Just a news bulletin...
Wednesday Sept. 1st, Oslo #3 pulled out of the car barn and ran the length of the electrified waterfront tracks of the Brooklyn Historic Railway in Red Hook Brooklyn. Now that our permanent power source has been installed, PCC's 3321 and 3299 have been moved to the current end of the line to allow #3 to stretch it's legs. A pic showing #3 on the line is shown in this website's Brooklyn (new) section.
Monday, 3321 is to go through more diagnostics and system checks in preparation for her to run before the end of the month.
Looking for volunteers to help finish interior painting on '21 and '99, and to help out in general.
Jan
Okay, notice for weekday, all CI bound trains run local park to hwy. Fine with me.
They were replacing the CI bound express track with jointed track sections. Why not weilded rail I do not know. But other day the wielders were out there.
Are they replacing the track joint with wields?
If so what happen to the MOW Wielded Rail Train?
Is this cheaper, lay joint and then wield?
What about inspection of the wields?
I could be wrong about what the wielders where doing.
Today with the collection of MOW gangs taking breaks at the Hwy we had a MOW train with two flatcars (one with crain) moving rails through the station and laying them out. The station is built on an overpass some of the portion of the tracks is not on a ballasted track bed so assume they will replace the rails the old fashion way with the track gang and sweat.
Just before dark Saturday nite I took a ride with my son over the WillyB on a J train. The track work is flawless. But........some of the signals were installed sideways because of clearance problems, but I wish they wouldn't have the signal number sideways as well!......I can see a motorman being blinded by the headlights of automobiles at night. Anybody working on the tracks at night is at risk.......A golden opportunity to replace the switches entering Essex St. This wasn't done. You still have a bumpy ride as the train goes over the switch entering the station.......A motorman reads his signals and signs on the right side. That is why it is called the "right of way". He doesn't need to know about a blind tripper as he is going in the proper direction of traffic, he needs to know about it when he is going "wrong rail". Not all blind tripper signs are installed from what I saw going against traffic. All you need is a small sign on the protection board........Finally, just as the train goes underground, it is on the same level with motor traffic. I did not see any barricades. All you need is a spin-out, that vehicle can easily mount the edge and wind up on the tracks. I hope it doesn't hit the third rail. I hope it doesn't kill a motorman in his cab if a train is coming at the same instant. How do you explain that to Control Center?.........I may be wrong in some of my observations, as I would have to ride over and/or operate over the bridge several times in order to get a clearer mental picture of the set-up.
Bill, I for one find these kinds of observations very interesting, thanks for the report !
Mr t__:^)
Has anybody heard about the beginning of the capital project at 72-Bway? How will the widening of the platforms affect the subway service?
3TM
This is Clark St-Brooklyn Heights. This is the last station stop in Brooklyn. Transfer available to the B25 on the upper level via an elevator. This is an 148 bound 3 making local stops to Chambers. The next station is Wall Street. Step in and stand clear of the closing doors........
I just came back from the U.S. Open....Great event but everything in there is a little too expensive for me...just give me the last row and i'm happy...Anyway I took the Path from Hoboken to 33rd St.
Question 1: What exactly is the Path doing at 14th street station...I mean what if any new improvements are going to be put in place.
Then I caucht the 1 from Penn to 42nd St. and tranfered to the 7 express(God I'm going to miss those Red bird when they get replaced). On the way back I took the 7 to Jackson Heights and tranfered to the R (the firts time taking the R from Queens) to 34th St./Herald Sqr. and got on the Path back to Jersey.
Question 2: While i was in Hoboken I noticed partially covered tracks on the road following the hudson and also a looping track at the Hoboken terminal. Can anyone tell me anything about these tracks and if there is any info on trolley service in Hoboken.
Question 3: I also noticed a group of NJT Diesls idleing with their engines running, Now I know it better for a diesl or for that matter any combustion engine to run constantly but these trains weren't going anywhere for the rest of the night (it was 12:30am when I was in Hoboken). Do they ever shut them down (other than maintenance for obvious reasons)?
the tracks in the street may be leftover from many years ago when pubic service ran trolleys into hoboken. they where enbeded in the coblestones along the station where the bus stop is now. the new hudson light rail is going there too but i don't know when work will start.
most railroads kept their engines running 24/7 njt is no different
Well, the Light Rail is going to Hoboken, yes, but the station will be on the Jersey City side (south side of Hoboken Terminal). It will not come down along Observer Hwy to the bus terminal area of Hoboken Terminal. Construction has already started on the bridgework required to get the light rail tracks into Hoboken.
-Dave
where is going to cross over rt 1 and 9 by the tunnel?
No, it will cross "over" the tunnel just east of the toll plaza/portal. They are building a bridge from the Newport Mall area, thru the parking lot of the Foodmart International, and into hoboken on the south side of the NJT tracks.
-Dave
Just looked at the Service Notices on the MTA website. It is official. Beginning 10-3-99, The 6 will go to Brooklyn Bridge late night and the 2 will run local in Manhattan........
3TM
This is Wall St, first station in Manhattan. The next station is Fulton St/Bway-Nassau/South St Seaport. Transfer available to the A,C,J,M,Z,4,and 5 trains on the upper level. Stand clear.............
This been offical since August. Currently the IRT Train Operators and Conductor are picking there new work programs. The work Programs start 10/3/99 which there will be added service on lots of IRT Routes. The No.6 will run every 4 Minute from 177 St Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge during Middays.
I will be pick my new assignment tuesday at 11AM.
I'm comeing home to Pelham I hate Broadway!
You should pick a switching job.
I may be able to but I want to make the money since I can pick a 3 tripper from Pelham to Brooklyn Bridge for 9HRS and change. I'm not sure if I can pick a switching job. I can pick a job at Van Courtandt witch has WAA the full 8 HRS. I think thats the gap crew job. Its 6AM to 2PM.
Speaking of Pelham what happened there two days back. I heard 9501 had an explosion at Union Square and control center had ordered the power off. Trouble was they had ordered the power off south of Broome Street while the firemen almost electrocuted themselves while they were told it was off at 14 Street. Do some snooping around and confirm that those in top management can be as incompetent as those who open doors on the wrong side. In the future if power should be turned off, MAKE SURE it is! Go to the alarm box and turn all the tracks off in an emergency. Don't trust anyone with your life.
Isn't that the truth. Don't trust nobody is right.
As for the Explosion I don't know what happened. Maybe tomorrow when I go to Pelham to pick I'll find out. But that would be the 3th Exposion under an R 36 this summer.
1. Was the 8:02AM Pelham at Castle Hill Ave. Train was turned back to Westchester Yard at Parkchester. This happened around July.
2. The day of the big flood a Main Street bound No.7 had a Exposion at 111 Street.
Then there was that R-68 on the D. I've heard of fireworks, but this is ridiculous.
In the B division, the file numbers went into the 1900s exceeding the 65% quota.The switching jobs were closed out at that point when the union grieved the different pay scales. The union supposedly won something but I don't know what.
Welcome back Dave (from a daily #6 rider)
Thank You Hopefully it will be final Tuesday Morning
Its Offical I'm back on the No.6 Line out of Pelham Tuesday throu Saturday. But I'll be working the No.5 Line for the Holidays.
Maybe we'll catch you on the 6 next month.
Yes My first day back of the good old Pelham Line will be Oct.5
I'm glad I got off that No.1 Line.
Its good to be back at a terminal that Appricates my service.
Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) and I are tentatively planning to do some picture taking on the Pelham line on Oct. 27th. Maybe we'll catch a ride on your train, especially if the Redbirds will still be out in full force.
< This is Wall St, first station in Manhattan. The next station is Fulton St/Bway-Nassau/South St Seaport. Transfer available to the A,C,J,M,Z,4,and 5 trains on the upper level. Stand clear...>
You perhaps have one of those weird GO jobs? The first station in Manhattan is Bowling Green.
Sorry, I forgot you're working on the 3. You were talking about the Lex, so I just assumed... Mea culpa.
There's a GO in effect overnights for another few weeks, which has the E running on 6th Avenue from W. 4th Street to 5th Avenue.
This morning I took the 4:56 a.m. departure from WTC, which was affected by the GO. I assume the routing from Chambers to W. 4th (lower level) is that which was used by the old JFK Express? This is also an excellent opportunity to ride on the 6th Ave. uptown local track with a railfan window.
The move mentioned above is one of the few on the system that has a "yellow bottom" (meaning diverging move) even though the physical route is straight ahead. The normal route, taking the turnout, has a "green bottom." There are a few others I know -- for example on the Canarsie Line inbound at East New York. Can you add to the list?
I think on the IRT Lenox line where the #2/#5 turns out to the Bronx is considered the "Main" and the straight-ahead to 145th Street is the "diverging".
Wayne
IIRC, the wye just after leaving Alabama Ave. on a Manhattan-bound J train falls under the same category. That's the lead to ENY Yard. I haven't been on a train headed in that direction in a long, LONG time, so I'm not 100% sure.
With all this talk of trips to London and trips to New York
I thought it may be helpful to outline the approximate costs
associated with a budget trip to London.
A flight from New York to London return can be bought for
$330.00 dollars inc tax if you shop around arnd are not fussy
about which airline you use. Before you come I think you can
pre-purchase in the US an LT Travelcard which will provide transport from Heathrow Airport to your London Hotel and a ride on the
Piccadilly express. The travelcard will provide tranport on all Underground, buses, surface trains, and docklands in London.
Hotels are cheap by NY standards. But if you use a chain
like Travel inn the rates are around $64.00 for a double room
in the suburbs and $88.00 in central London. Check it out on
www.travelinn.co.uk The hotel in Ilford in particular is right
opposite Redbridge Underground station on the Central Line and
takes 40 mins to the city. You will find everything here expensive
so here are a few tips to save money. Skip the breakfast, most hotels
and all travelinns have free tea and coffee making facilities in the roomn buy some supermarket muffins, doughnuts, or danish and hey presto - breakfast.
Lunch on a weekday is great if you like pizza. Pizza hut have a buffet as much as you can eat pizza, pasta and salad for $8.00. Pig out here.
In the suburbs food is a lot cheaper, a fish and chip supper
(no newspaper these days) is around $6.00. Buy drinks in supermarkets they are half the price than those bought off the street. Supermarket
sandwiches will provide a reasonable lunch.
Assuming a four night stay you could do a trip for one person for as little as (including around $50.00 a day for food etc) $800.00
For two people add the cost of the flight and some more spending money.
You will need insurance and I have no idea what that costs your side.
Anyway if any of you do come you will be most welcome.
Simon
Swindon UK
Actually, if you're willing to go on short notice, you can get airfare to London for far, far less. Try $115 round-trip! Many airlines have e-mail lists with weekly dirt-cheap specials. US Airways has E-Savers, American Airlines has Net SAAvers, and United has E-Fares. I'm sure other airlines have similar lists.
The drawback, of course, is the short notice - usually no more than two weeks - the travel times are very restrictive. But if you have some free weekends coming up, you can't beat the fare.
I would need $60 or some odd dollars for a passport >G
Wow, those fares are cheap. Couple them to a cheap hotel and you are on your way.
Simon
Swindon UK
In the illustrated roster this car is described as ex 927. Is it in fact an R6-3 then?
I just returned from a business trip to Oakland, California.
I probably should have asked before I went, but I'll ask now in preparation for any futrue trips to Oakland. I did get over to SF and rode the California St Cable Rwy and the Market St PCC. I see that that the Embarcadero Line is being reconstructed. On my next trip, I will utilize BART. So, what else can I look for on my next trip. I do not believe that I will have any time to see anything during the day unless my reason for being there (in Oakland) is extended over a week.
There is a light rail system in San Jose, not much to see, but its growing rapidly. There is a narrow gauge steam railroad in the Santa Cruz mountians, its a tourest operation, but alot of fun to ride, during the summers they run standard gauge trains down to Santa Cruz, on a line that runs in the middle of some city streets. Also the new commuter rail service over the Altamont pass is on my list of things to do in the Bay Area...
Thanks,
It was something to see the train coming down the middle of the street at Jack London Sq. AMTRAK, CALTRANS? Union Pacific freights. It was definitely a busy set of tracks.
Is the bus ramp to/from the bay bridge, The Key Sysyem ramp paved over for the busses?
Yes the old ROW is now the Bus loop. The JL Square line you saw is now the only trackage(the previous WP tracks on 3rd St have been removed. The tracks now in use are onetime SP now part of greater UP hosting ATK, and ATK California--San Joaquins and Capitols. Its actually quite busy. As to other sights, you should sample BART, SF MUNI Metro, and time permitting go to Sacremento--Light Rail line AND Cal State RR Museum.
Take K or M lines to the end of the line at Balboa Park, new and old car barns there. J line back to downtown. If you're short on time you can take BART one way, don't miss the J line the other way.
I also visited the Bay area with my wife on vacation last week. Saw the restored PCCs traveling along Market and Powell, rode the cable cars on the Powell line to the Wharf, and spotted the Bredas on the N-Judah line on our way to SFO. Nice transportation system, although I didn't see any BART trains (did see some ROWs in Alameda County).
One question, though. What was the thinking behind not using a standard railroad gauge for BART? Was it to lock in one sole vendor (at the time, Rohr) to provide rolling stock for the system? Or was it another politically motivated reason?
It may have had something to do with better riding stability at high speeds. Since BART trains run as fast as 85 mph, having wide gauge track helps smooth out the ride.
Stability was supposedly the key issue in developing the wider track guage. However, there are PLENTY of standard-guage operations on which the trains run at much higher speeds, so that tosses the original BART stability issue out the window.
BTW, BART's maximum speed has always been 80 miles an hour, not 85. Trains would creep up to 83 at times but the computer would catch them and bring them back down in a couple seconds. In the past few years, however, doing over 72 miles an hour is a rare thing at BART. The excuse for this was "overwinding" of traction motors. I've done a lot of riding of BART this past year and it's been my experience that the trains are barely getting over 65 miles an hour actual speed, though the maximum speed indicator on the train operators console will say "80". Methinks the trains are just getting old!
Maybe the speedometers need to be recalibrated.
I'd love to see New York's trains get up to 65 (again). I know, ain't gonna happen.
No, BART's speedometers don't need recalibration. The trains simply are NOT getting up to the speeds that they used to. The train operators even mention this.
What BART needs is a LOT of new trains. They got 80 "C2" cars a few years ago, but they are still running MOST of their original 1972 stock.
The trains can still do 80, they just slowed them dwon to save on wear and tear. The command speed in the tube for example is 80 mph, but trains usually go 65. One day I was on a train that got delayed about 10 minutes, since it was the first train of the day through the tube there was on one in our way and we got up to 77 mph.
I'd like to see NYC subways hit 40 mph consistently between stations. These days, 25 mph or less is more like it. No way the trains can beat cars traveling on the highway, except for (sometimes) those traveling to Manhattan in rush hour conditions. But they ought to at least be able to keep up with cars on the streets they run under, with stations taking the place of lights.
I think the time has come to make a choice: either go with GT signals or no field shunting, but not both. Having both makes things redundant. On a nice, straight stretch of express track, let 'er rip!
The way things are going, rapid transit in New York isn't so rapid anymore.
Gee, that sounds like a certain fleet of cars in New York. They're the reverse of Maxwell Smart's handle.
Sorry about that, Steve.
Speaking of handles from that show, I wonder if anybody else noticed that the handle of Maxwell Smart's partner is the reverse of his girlfriend's handle.
Agent 99 was his girlfriend; it just took Max about three seasons to notice her.
Here's an off-topic stumper: what was 99's real name? Barbara Feldon doesn't count; that's who played her.
Exactly! Agent 99 was his partner. What's 99 written backwards? As for the second one, I've ALWAYS wanted to know that.
Her real name on the show was Sue Hilton.
When she told Max, he replied, "I like 99 better."
From what I understand, BART reduced speeds because it significantly reduced maintnace issues, this was a few years ago.
I remember when the system opened in the early seventies, with already obsolete computers controlling it, we all wished that there was a controller and a broake handle up in the cab, as we sat idly for long periods.
Were you looking at the speedometer, (green i think) or the speed-limit indicator (orange, and smaller) ? Recently I've never seen a train running over 72. Years ago there was a bad segment on the LED display, and we all thought we were going _92_ until cooler heads prevailed.
The speedometer is the larger one, of course -- and yes, I was looking at that. When BART trains were new, they were allowed to do 80 maximum, but you could watch the speed occasionally creep a couple miles past but it would immediately slow down.
And, yes, I haven't seen anything more than 72 tops lately. As others have pointed out, BART cut the top speeds down about 10% to
cut down on wear and tear. If you do the mathematics, the 10% reduction in speed isn't going to matter that much timewise, unless that top speed was done for very long, sustained stretches -- a ten mile stretch at 80mph isn't going to be that much faster than at 72mph, especially when you figure in the acceleration to top speed and deceleration from top speed. (I think the longest distance between BART stations IS around 10 miles, on the new Dublin-Pleasanton line. Anyone know?)
It may have had something to do with better riding stability at high speeds. Since BART trains run as fast as 85 mph, having wide gauge track helps smooth out the ride.
The story I heard on usenet (misc.transport.urban-transport) was that BART was designed around broad guage to provide stability in the face of strong winds.
As Steve Hoskins said, broad guage isn't needed for stability at speed. I invite anyone who doubts that fact to look at the 300km/h standard guage TGVs.
Stability in strong winds?
Hell, the ONLY place BART ever got up to 80 miles an hour was IN TUNNELS!!
A lot of elevated and grade level line between Oaklnd and Fremont has a command speed of 80 mph.
Stability in strong winds?
Hell, the ONLY place BART ever got up to 80 miles an hour was IN TUNNELS!!
Since when did the decisions of any transit authority make sense? :-)
With the weather holding up, I decided to bike out this morning to the Rockaways via Cross Bay Boulevard. And I deliberately stopped by the Gateway National Park's Jamaica Bay ranger station at Broad Channel to ask about the jurisdiction of the islands, where the A train runs through.
The ranger on duty told me that the islands are indeed part of Gateway Recreation Area (run by the US Dept. of the Interior much like Yellowstone Natn'l Park). Apparently, only the fenced in area of the right-of-way belongs jointly to the city/MTA. He also claimed -- and I have yet to hear this anywhere else -- that the ROW is due to be widdened for future REINSTALLMENT of Rockaway LIRR service!? (Is this an option of the planned JFK Express service?).
Doug aka BMTman
[The ranger on duty told me that the islands are indeed part of Gateway Recreation Area (run by the US Dept. of the Interior much like Yellowstone Natn'l Park). Apparently, only the fenced in area of the right-of-way belongs jointly to the city/MTA. He also claimed -- and I have yet to hear this anywhere else -- that the ROW is due to be widdened for future REINSTALLMENT of Rockaway LIRR service!? (Is this an option of the planned JFK Express service?).]
That's certainly news to me. In fact, I find it downright imcomprehensible *why* the LIRR would want to resume service to the Rockaways. The area's certainly far less popular as a vacation spot as had been the case when the LIRR last ran there. Nor is there enough of a population base to support commuter service. I'd say that the ranger's spent a little too much time in the wilderness :-)
Unless he really meant service along the Ozone-Rockaway line south until Howard Beach? That's the only thing I can think of other than the ranger has been hanging out too long on the nature trails :-)
"IF" this is true, it is pretty much a combination of politics and real estate. The city pretty much considers Rockaway prime beachfront property. For years they have been planning to get market rate housing - meaning $275,000 - $500,000 houses or condos; or rentals starting at maybe $1,700 per month.
Now, anybody with this type of money will not invest in Rockaway, not only because of the decay in some of the areas, but also because of its lack of adequate, quick transportation to and from Mid-town and Wall Street.
Granted, you could get to Wall Street, from Far Rockaway in less than an hour on the "A", provided there are no extensive delays, unfortunately, the "A" train carries a stigma of being a dangerous subway line. I don't agree with that, but never the less, that is the opinion of a lot of people.
As far as Mid-town is concerned, it could take anywhere from 1 hour and 15 minutes to 1 hour and 45 minutes and that is unacceptable.
I have old schedules of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch and I noticed a trip from Penn Sta. to Rockaway Park was only 35 minutes.
So, as far as I can see, the only way to truly accomplish what the City wants is to revive the LIRR Rockaway Beach Line, or at least run a subway line along the POW (if communities of Woodhaven, Richmond Hill, and Glendale will allow it).
This is the only reason I can imagine the LIRR resuming service to Rockaway Beach.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, since this Park Ranger didn't seem like he was just "shooting the breeze". He was telling me the information as if it was something he got from another source.
As our fellow SubTalker Paul has noted, there is no listing of any work to be done on the Rockaway Line regarding the LIRR (at least for the next 10 years). I would guess that this Ranger only heard a rumor through the community -- or elsewhere -- about resurrecting LIRR service. I do believe, however, that IF the Arverne (sp?) area is redeveloped into "upscale" developments -- surely there would be an interest AND serious proposals for doing just that.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I think what we're discussing here actually argues for the line having been rebuilt as an LIRR service way back when. IOW, a premium fare service for a small population. After all, remember that most of the Rockaways are a barrier beach--two or three blocks wide.
But (1) at the time the LIRR was privately owned and (2) the demographic doesn't support a premium fare service.
I think the problem with current subway service is not so much a perception that the "A" line is unsafe, as that it is such a long haul. You have to take the "A" all the way downtown Manhattan, then thread through downtown Brooklyn, then almost to the end of the Liberty Avenue line before you finally get onto the Rockaway Line for a long haul across Jamaica Bay.
Let's face it. It's the transit equivalent of the taxi driver who takes the "scenic route" to JFK.
Since one of the original plans (hook up to the Queens Boulevard Line) is unlikely (too much construction, too much NIMBY, not enough trunk capacity) maybe we could revive a combination of an intermediate plan and a BRT operation from the 'teens (the century's teens, not my teens):
Reopen the old Rockaway r-o-w only as far as Jamaica Ave for a connection to the Jamaica Line. Put in the Jamaica Line third track and finally straighten out that walking speed mess at Crescent Street. Run express on Jamaica Ave. and Broadway, then run uptown through Chrystie. Then, for good measure, run 70-75 mph across Jamaica Bay.
More direct. Faster. Uses available capacity. Good for other sections of Brooklyn and Queens, too.
Hey, my pipe dreams are no worse than anybody elses. Are they?
I have a different idea. Before 1968, the city owned the TBTA. In 1968, it received 66 percent of the TBTA surplus. Today, it gets 50 percent -- less in some years, although that is "impossible." One way to make that more fair is to increase commuter rail service in the city.
My scenario is that LIRR trains go direct from Far Rockaway to Penn/GCT over a reopened Rockaway ROW, with stops further on in Queens, and the NIMBYs be dammned. You build a new station at Liberty, where (if you transfer to the subway) you owe no additional fare. Then the conductors collect a second fare from through riders -- who would have a Metrocard of a different color. The LIRR and TA would split the fares for subway riders -- LIRR gets them inbound, the TA gets them outbound. The Rockway Park link could be converted to light rail, and descend and run at street level to Belle Harbor and Neposit.
With good timing, those living in those neighborhoods could be in Midtown in less than an hour. The TA would save the cost of a subsidy-draining service. Service on a schedule makes more sense than an attempt a frequent service in such a lightly populated area.
Remember how many Howard Beach riders rode the JFK express, which saved little time but avoided all the stops on the subway? How about all those express buses from the outer areas of the city, which run non-stop but save little of no time? There is a market for premium fare service for long trips, and the MTA should serve it. The poor of the Rockaways are more likely to work locally, or not at all, and don't use the subway either. The transfer option would provide a service to those who do.
Three points:
First, Triborough was never "owned" by the City. It was a self-contained state chartered entity. If it was "owned" by anyone, it was owned by the bondholders. Its mayor was Robert Moses. This is not Moses-bashing. It's just a fact.
The city desperately wanted TBTA surpluses for transit. More importantly, it wanted to increase those surpluses by raising tolls, which it could not do without state support and some heavy dealing with the bondholders. Remember, TBTA money was not supposed to go to the City, or the State, or the TA or LIRR or MNRR, it was supposed to go to facilities for motorists and to pay off bondholders.
Second point.
I have no argument with your ideas for commuter service within the City. But the LIRR, at least, has a continuing crisis of capacity. This is bad for the City not only because there is insufficient local service, but because a person who can't take the railroad is going to drive, increasing highway congestion, eating tax dollars (in highway construction) and increasing pollution in the region.
Right now, the LIRR is literally in competition with the NYS DOT (not the City) for the ability to provide transportation to the entire eastern quadrant of the commuting region.
Third point.
City-suburban infighting over transit benefits none of us. If the bulk of motorists increases and they get over their apathy over continual TBTA toll increases and the transfer of that money to rails (City or Suburban) we're all in trouble.
Look, no one in the city is against improving transit in the suburbs. As a practical (and fiscal) matter, its the other way around. Given the way the state operates, I think its about time city "representatives" said "US TOO" on education and transportation matters. In the past, the "US TOO" has been more money for the hospitals and social service organizations -- far in excess what of what is required to provide health care and social services.
The City didn't object when NJ just changed the PATH deal to allow vastly more airport surpluses to be diverted to PATH. A few years later, the Port Authority announced it could no longer afford to build a transit connection to LaGuardia, because it had kept the PATH fare and tolls below MTA levels. Is THAT regional thinking?
Look, no one in the city is against improving transit in the suburbs. As a practical (and fiscal) matter, its the other way around.
Nonsense! The Straphanger's Campaign, Ruth Messinger, Carol Greitzer (when she was a member of the MTA board) and every other NYC politician lines up for suburb bashing.
Given the way the state operates, I think its about time city "representatives" said "US TOO" on education and transportation matters. In the past, the "US TOO" has been more money for the hospitals and social service organizations -- far in excess what of what is required to provide health care and social services.
Then it's an argument of city priorities vs. other city priorities. But the suburbs make a much more appetizing "enemy." What do you suppose would happen if some city politician said "Uh ... if we could transfer a quarter of city Medicaid spending to transit construction, we could fully fund the Second Avenue subway proposal in a single year."
[Then it's an argument of city priorities vs. other city priorities. But the suburbs make a much more appetizing "enemy." What do you suppose would happen if some city politician said "Uh ... if we could transfer a quarter of city Medicaid spending to transit construction, we could fully fund the Second Avenue subway proposal in a single year."]
If that actually happened (watch out for the flying pigs), not only would there be a Second Avenue line, but the city's per capita Medicaid spending probably would still be far above the national average.
I'm still trying to figure out how NYC manages to spend more on Medicaid than does the entire state of California.
[I'm still trying to figure out how NYC manages to spend more on Medicaid
than does the entire state of California.]
Well, there is obviously somebody who's bank account that is getting full on the backs of the tax payers.
Doug aka BMTman
If the money were actually going to real health care you could guess every single poor person in the City would be living to the age of 120 in perfect health.
And NOBODY in the city would pay for medical services, it would all be free.
I wonder if I should ask by boss if I could borrow a few big posterboards I have prepared for the 2nd Avenue Subway hearing?
They show 1) city vs. U.S. local government revenue and spending as a share of personal income by broad category, with Medicaid and Social Services (not to mention taxes) high and education, transportation, and parks low.
2) Shows one place the money goes -- health and social services employment in the city rising up in a straight line. Of course, they only added 15,000 jobs last year. "Please Governor Pataki Please." This is the Democratic patronage machine.
3) Shows the other place the money goes -- local government earnings as a share of total earnings in the city, upstate, NY suburbs, NJ, and the U.S. The suburbs and upstate are WAY up there. This is Repulican patronage machine. All state taxpayers are paying for the upstate flab, but the suburbs are paying for themselves (hence Nassau's future bankrupcy).
Couldn't identify it as City Planning work without getting in DEEP trouble, and probably wouldn't get to talk until 4 a.m. Still, its worth considering.
Larry, might I recommend you show up at that meeting in a bullet-proof vest ;-)
Sounds like you might be ruffling lots of feathers (mostly from overstuffed Turkeys, I might add).
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Regarding "premium fare" service from the Rockaways ... in a sense, that already exists (LIRR from Far Rockaway). If Arverne and adjacent areas do get redeveloped on a larger scale than is now the case, it might well be that more people will be using this service. Even with the required backtracking it might be faster than the slow A train through Brooklyn. It could be that demand would exist for increased A service *to* Far Rockaway in the morning (and from F.R. in the evening) to take advantage of the LIRR service.
The Far Rockaway A is a long way from the more prosperous parts of the Rockways, and its roundabout route makes for a slow ride. It it were faster, I'd say just re-connect the two lines and run the LIRR to Rockaway Park, with a transfer to the A right on the peninsula. But that would take too long.
When the LIRR Jamaica Bay trestle burned, they continued service to Rockaway Park by Valley Stream. Not only is it a long way around, I don't think city riders will want to pay the $6.25 peak fare where they now pay $1.50, or purchase a $135.00 monthly pass which takes them only to a handful of stations in the City where they now have a MetroCard for $63.00 which takes them all over the City.
True, Paul.
Ya know what I think? If the city were to sell the Rockaways to Nassau County (if they should desire to acquire it) -- and the "no man's land areas" were re-developed -- then we would certainly see LIRR service to Rockaway Park restored.
But of course that is HIGHLY unlikely.
PS The Rockaways are high-way there -- they get their power from LIPA anyhow, heh,heh :-0
Doug aka BMTman
Oh, goody!
Just what the Rockaways need. The Nassau County Republican Organization, famed for Honest Government.
How do you spell "Out of the frying pan..." ;-)
[Oh, goody!
Just what the Rockaways need. The Nassau County Republican Organization, famed for Honest Government.]
The Rockaways might be able to teach Nassau a "lesson." Look at it this way - while it's not a pleasant thing to say, there certainly are quite a few ex-cons living in the Rockaways. And it's likely that the top brass in the Nassau County government will be finding themselves behind bars soon (at least we all *hope* it'll be true). So maybe their newest constituents can instruct them in coping with prison life!
(Nassau Republicans on their way to jail). Isn't the head of the Democratic Party ALREADY in jail? You don't have any good choices here in the Vampire State.
[(Nassau Republicans on their way to jail). Isn't the head of the Democratic Party ALREADY in jail? You don't have any good choices here in the Vampire State.]
I'll go WAY out on a limb and say that Nassau County should somehow become part of NYC once again. Crazy idea? Well, maybe, and I suspect it's got a snowball's chance of ever happening. But it would be a potential win-win situation for both sides. People in Nassau pay stupefyingly high property taxes, and I can't see what they get in return - other than a bloated, incompetent, kleptomanic county government, that is. Oh yes, Nassau has "good schools." Or does it? My guess is that if you make reasonable allowances for neighborhood incomes and educational levels, city schools do just as well. In other words, there are many low-performing schools in the city because there are many poor neighborhoods inhabited by single-parent families with low expectations when it comes to education. And there are many high-performing schools in Nassau because precisely the opposite is the case. Point is, it shouldn't matter whether a particular neighborhood is part of the city or Nassau County, when it comes to school quality.
Peter that's basically true about the school situation. Case in point -- schools in the city that are in "good neighborhoods" (or stable neighborhoods) tend to have schools with high-productivity that are comparable to many suburban schools. So on that point City-schools vs. Suburban schools fairly on an even scale.
Doug aka BMTman
I can't speak for Nassau, but the thing we have in Suffolk in exchange for our sky-high property taxes is some real semblance of community control. This is because the bureaucrats are ultimately answerable to local taxpayers, not to politicians from a different neighborhood or even a different borough.
If some school is failing, the local bureaucrats don't have anyone to pass the buck to, and don't they know it.
Also if parents have a real complaint with the curriculum, the decision isn't made by some ivory tower dude trying to balance the pressures of a million diverse parents and dozens of political groups.
I'm not painting this as some kind of paradise. We did, after all, have the Roosevelt school district taken over by the State. I'm just saying that the local control makes it harder for the aparatchiks to hide.
The gap in school quality is over-rated, but money does buy something. Would a summer school program in Nassau lose track of 10,000 students or so? Nassau has three people doing a job, one of whom works. NYC has one -- who does not work. The schools are also newer. The NYC schools only educate the children of parents who complain, work the system, and raise hell.
However, if the NYC schools were reorganized, and spending rose to the national average, they could be pretty good. But that is not in the interest of anyone that counts.
Add in the city income taxes, and you'll find that city taxes are about the same at the same level of income. Given the huge social service burden Nassau does NOT have, charging that much in taxes is quite a trick. But you don't save money in NYC.
And it's likely that the top brass in the Nassau County Government will be finding themselves behind bars soon (at least we all *hope* it'll be true). So maybe their newest constituents can instruct them in coping with prison life!
While politicians in general, and Republicans in particular, tend to 'do the crimes,' so to speak, they almost never 'do' anywhere near enough time.
Just ask Nixon, Liddy, Reagan, or Ollie North....
Whoa! Politicians, unfortunately, seem to have lost sight of the fact that "public service" means "serving the public" rather than "being served BY the public". But I'll venture to say that neither party has a monopoly on crooked politicians. Just ask the four members of the Asbury Park (NJ) school board currently in jail or under indictment, or the mayor of Camden.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoa! Politicians, unfortunately, seem to have lost sight of the fact that "public service" means "serving the public" rather than "being served BY the public".
I think this is true of leaders in both the public and private sectors. In business, "customer service" now means "customers serve us." The bottom line is that we the public get royally screwed over while our leadership escapes legal punishment like teflon escapes dirt.
But I'll venture to say that neither party has a monopoly on crooked politicians.
True. It's just that the crimes of the right wing seem to be far more severe than those committed by the center-right (aka Democrats). Undermining a nation's fundamental principles a la Nixon, North, and (hack, spit) Exon is orders of magnitude more dangerous than the run-of-the-mill political lying, cheating and stealing committed by the likes of Clinton and various local Democrats politicians.
Well put. Time's are ripe for a much needed "third party".
Doug aka BMTman
YOU MEAN JESSE VENTURA !!
Or I could be talking about Al "Granpa" Lewis of the Green Party, here in New York.
YOU MEAN JESSE VENTURA !!
Bill Newkirk
"third party"
Say, this has transit relevance!
Hylan railed against the BMT and IRT. "Not a dime's worth of difference," I can hear him say.
So we got the IND which eventually took over the BMT and IRT. Which led to the NYCTA, which led to the MTA...
Are we all happy?
Well, down home there's another effort at starting a third party - the Southern party, dedicated to peacefully extricating us from the situation we've been in since the late unpleasantness of 1861-65.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I guess the south really hates all the subsidies they get, year in, year out, from the north and midwest, via the US Treasury.
And, of course, the south would be much better off if Eisenhower and Kennedy and Johnson and maybe even Nixon had not forced them to join the twentieth century in the civil rights era...
Subsidies? Get real! The south receives the lowest share of education and health care dollars from the federal government of any part of the country. They get significantly lower agricultural subsidies than the Midwest, tobacco notwithstanding (over 50% of that flows to one state, North Carolina, and that number has been decreasing significantly in recent years). They get a comparable amount of highway dollars and a lower amount of mass transit dollars. Looks to me like it's the other way around.
As for the civil rights issues, yes, the south needed a kick in the tail 50 years ago. But where, in the '60s, were the biggest race riots? Detroit, New York, LA - not the south. And the civil rights issues that the south did have were the product of a vocal minority, not of the majority.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting thing about the South during the '60s. A little known fact is that President Kennedy made alot of concessions to the South to end segregation and join the rest of America: most of NASA's organizational activities were setup in southern states for that reason. Ever notice that? (Texas, Alabama, Florida)
I found this little detail in a VERY GOOD book called: 'Angle of Attack -- Harrison Storms and the Race to the Moon' (There is also ALOT of info on Grumman and their building of the LEM). Check it out.
Doug aka BMTman
(Times are ripe).
I wrote Tom Golisano and told him as much. All you'd have to do is knock enough Democrats out in the state Assembly, and Republicans in the state Senate, so that the lead party does not have a majority. Then, you demand reforms in exchange for political support. Hell, we could probably recruit candidates right off this page. Haven't heard back, though. I guess he just likes running for Governor every four years.
The thing about the Nassau Republicans is that they are the direct descendents (in some cases biological) of the Brooklyn Democrats who sucked this borough dry and left it in ruins. I'm hoping term limits will kill off their remnants in Brooklyn and Queens (ie. Donald Manes, Meade Esposito) once and for all. After they finish off Nassau, which part of the state will they move onto next? Suffolk?
You're almost talking about a European / Israeli form of coalition government. It might be OK for the first two years or so, but it would soon degenerate into a "wag the dog" situation (classic, not the movie) where politicians vie for the support of some single-issue group opposed by 90% of the populace to put together a coalition every bit as corrupt as the machine politics we had before, but instead of pandering to their own party's core constituency, they now have to pander to the fringe group, which has been given the power to bring down the government by leaving.
I'm sure we can all think of any number of committed single-issue groups who can't get their legislation through, but have sufficient numbers to be part of a coalition.
My quixotic favorite is to allow an explicit "no" vote for significant offices. If "no" gets more votes than any of the candidates, all the candidates except the human who got the most votes can't run again until the next general election.
For example, the Democrats put up Huey, the Republicans Dewey and the Conservatives Louie.
"No" gets 40%, Huey gets 30%, Dewey gets 25% and Louie 5%
Huey gets to stay in the race, but the Republicans and Conservatives have to see if Donald and Daisy are interested in running. Maybe, just maybe, the parties whose candidates were dumped will have to think harder about who they're putting up.
My favorite idea to deal with the problem of multi-party coelitions is to dump the idea of geographic representation. If party A gets 20% of the popular vote, they get 20% of the seats, period. Getting rid of districts means that nearly everyone is represented in the legislature, even if they voted for a non-governing party. The broad base of support required to earn enough seats to govern would greatly weaken the ability of one-issue parties to bring down sitting governments.
Where the 2 lines were once connected by Mott Av is now a big Waldbaums Shopping Center. So I guess connecting them is out of the question.
The shopping center was mostly vacant and decrepit, with a no name supermarket just hanging on, the last time I was out there for a field survey. But lots of people parked and rided in the lot -- thinking that at least some activity would reduce the chance of their car being robbed. The official park and ride lots were empty.
Has it been re-constructed, or are you just remembering a time in the past?
I was there about 5 years ago, unless I'm thinking of a different shopping center. They never should have tore down that connection in the first place. That would have been a great LIRR/subway connecting point instead of the Bay Ridge Line & the "L"!!
A Waldbaum's could stop an important rail connection?
And let's not forget that Walbaum's parent, the A&P Company, is pretty much selling off the Walbaum's chain to smaller "ethnic" supermarkets.
Doug aka BMTman
[And let's not forget that Walbaum's parent, the A&P Company, is pretty much selling off the Walbaum's chain to smaller "ethnic" supermarkets.]
There are some large new Waldbaum's on Long Island, so I would think their policy applies only in the city. In any event, the last time I made the LIRR-A connection at Far Rockaway, that plaza seemed pretty much abandoned. It shouldn't present much obstacle to a rebuilt track connection (if anything of the sort actually were planned, which surely isn't the case).
Perhaps - I'm not entirely sure what their strategic plans are. I've not been in a Waldbaum's so I can't speak from experience, but from their ads I get the impression they are a lower-line supermarket, whereas the A&P flagship stores are high-line stores. I do some shopping in a new A&P about two miles from our New Jersey house - they have excellent fresh fruit and vegetables and a few unique items that I like - but I can't afford to do my major grocery shopping there. They closed the only two Waldbaum stores in this area about a year ago; one was replaced by an A&P, the other was in a seriously declining shopping center and remains vacant.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The shopping center has value, in that there is almost no place in NYC where you can build a new supermarket under our zoning laws -- thanks to our City Council which voted to help monopolists keep control of the food supply in poor neighborhoods. Someone might try to rebuild the center. If the MTA wants an easement, it should buy it.
As a matter of fact, there are plenty of people in Far Rockaway/Arverne willing to pay for premium fare service to Manhattan during rush hours. Currently, Far Rockaway has an express bus, QM17, operated by the Green Bus Lines. Unfortunately, they only operate two trips in the AM and PM rush in peak direction only. As of late, these buses are becoming quite crowded and they will have add more trips. But that is basically a bus subject.
I feel that more people would utilize the Far Rockaway LIRR train if the station wasn't located in a very desolate area, where there is no stores, people or other transportation connections except a bus (Q113) that runs in one direction only and that is to Far Rockaway.
If this line was extended the five blocks to Mott Avenue, without having to demolish the shopping center, I know more people will utilize it.
I think the Waldbaum's name survives on Long Island for its name recognition with the many ex-New Yorkers who live there.
It had a resonence in the communities of Brooklyn and Queens, especially with the Jewish community, at least as long as Julia Waldbaum was still alive. For example, it carried an appetizing section when most supermarkets didn't.
In recent years (before or after AP took over? I dunno) it has been a management mess. I do all the supermarket shopping in my family and go to different supermarkets for different sales, etc.
Waldbaum's always seems to have the least helpful staff, the longest lines, expensive deli. The newer one in Lindenhurst is the only one in the area that charges you ransom to get a shopping cart.
Some years ago they ran an ad campaign which said in essence "our lines are longer but our prices are lower." That went over as well as running the A train local during rush hour.
That's the other reason Walbaum's got replaced in the city by other supermarkets like C-Town or Compare -- the low-prices they claimed only applied to actual sales items. There regular prices weren't much cheaper than any other supermarket chain.
There are two Walbaum's still in Brooklyn that I know of: one that's here in Canarsie (frequented by the older Jewish population) and another in the Georgetown Mall. Although these neighorhoods today have a large Caribbean population, they appreciate a good Deli-selection and that is why those Walbaum's are financialy better off and have been saved.
Key Food is big here in NYC, but not on the Island. Much like King Kullen is Long Island related and not found in the five boroughs (unless there is one in Queens I am not aware of?).
Paul, you might find it interesting that the suburban-based Edward's chain recently opened a supermarket in Brooklyn. It is in the location of the old Flatbush Ave. Macy's spot by Tilden Ave. across from Sears. The city even made some street changes whereby E. 21st now runs down from Tilden to alleviate traffic congestion from Edwards (E. 21st used to Deadend behind the old Loewman's (sp?) and Loew's Kings Theatre). I think that street was Duryea Place?
Doug aka BMTman
There is a Waldbaums in Starrett City as well. Not too far from Pathmark.......
3TM
34ST. Transfer to the M4, M16, M34, and the Q32. Connection to the Amtrak, LIRR, and NJT. The next station will be 42-Times SQ/PABT. Transfer available to the A,C,E,N,R,1,7,9 trains. M6, M7, M10, M16, M27, M42, M104 on the upper level. Connection to the PABT. Stand Clear of the closing doors...........
How much sun has that ranger been getting?
It's possible that on some official map somewhere there is a provision for LIRR joint use--the connection between the LIRR and TA wasn't severed immediately.
But with JEK service on the old Rockaway Branch considered an almost dead letter, I can't see anyone wanting to reestablish an extra cost railroad service to such a small population as exists on the Rockaways.
I know that the LIRR makes no mention of anything concerning the Rockaway Line in its 20-year plan.
>>I know that the LIRR makes no mention of anything concerning the Rockaway Line in its 20-year
plan. <<<
Anything interesting in that 20 year plan besides the GCT connection?
Actually, GCT isn't in the plan. That's a separate item with connected issues including providing feeder service for JFK and more local stops in the City.
Highlights of the plan include:
Third track Queens to Hicksville
Double track Farmingdale to Ronkonkoma
Electrification to Yaphank (Main Line) and Speonk (Montauk Line)
Double track and electrify Central Branch, Bethpage to Babylon
Nothing really earth-shaking. Just better operation on some existing lines.
I wish they'd double track Great Neck to Port Washington. So many trains are cancelled because of that single track...
They'd never get the good folks of Plandome to agree to that! Plus, isn't the Manhasset station ROW too narrow to accept double track?
Wayne
Yeah, I know. What's done is done with the PW branch, but when the GN-PW leg was built in 1898 I don't think they anticipated a heavy demand. But as it is there are too may cancellations--even a light rain throws off the whole schedule.
What are the LIRR's single track sections? In Nassau, there's the entire West Hempstead branch, the Hempstead between Garden City and Hempstead, the PW from Great Neck to PW and the Long Beach branch over the bridge between Island Park and Long Beach. I'm not as familiar with the lines in Suffolk. I'm not sure where things narrow down east of Huntington, Farmingdale and Patchogue...
Chuck
From memory.
Port Jefferson from east of Huntington. Trains can pass at least at Stony Brook.
Main Line from Republic to Ronkonkoma. There is a long passing siding at new Deer Park station. I'm not sure, there may also another siding around C.I. and/or Brentwood.
When the Main Line was electrified, the LIRR was given the choice: "you can have double track or can have electric. You choose." This is the kind of choice highway builders don't have to make: "You can have a two-lane grade separated highway OR you can have a six lane highway with traffic lights." Yeah, right.
Montauk from west of Patchogue to Montauk.
This is an important issue, because single track lines have no (or almost no) reverse rush hour service. Likewise, both tracks from Hicksville to Jamaica are mostly direction of heavy traffic only.
[Main Line from Republic to Ronkonkoma. There is a long passing siding at new Deer Park station. I'm not sure, there may also another siding around C.I. and/or Brentwood.
When the Main Line was electrified, the LIRR was given the choice: "you can have double track or can have electric. You choose." This is the kind of choice highway builders don't have to make: "You can have a two-lane grade separated highway OR you can have a six lane highway with traffic lights." Yeah, right.]
You're correct about the long siding east of Deer Park. In addition to Deer Park, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma are two-track stations. Come to think of it, I would say that a substantial portion of the Main Line between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma is in fact double-tracked. Surely it wouldn't cost a fortune to double-track the remaining segments?
It's single track through Wyandanch to just west of Deer Park.
This includes the Pinelawn and former Republic stations.
The Bethpage-to-Babylon Main Line spur is also single track.
Oyster Bay line through former Mill Neck station is single track.
Wayne
In Nassau you also have the line that goes from Farmingdale to Babylon (Only partially in Nassau)
Right, I think it's called the Central Branch.
Is the Oyster Bay line double tracked all the way? I think someone once told me it is single track beyond Glen Cove or so, but can't recall.
Apologies to the many SubTalk regulars who are O.B. line regulars. I forgot completely about that line when I was counting. Guess I'm no different than LIRR management.
Chuck
Although I'm not positive, I'm pretty sure the Oyster Bay Line has 2 tracks all the way through. I know for a fact it is double tracked to Glen Head! You might have confused it with the Port Wash. line which is partly single tracked.
[ Although I'm not positive, I'm pretty sure the Oyster Bay Line has 2
tracks all the way through. I know for a fact it is double tracked to
Glen Head! You might have confused it with the Port Wash. line which
is partly single tracked. ]
It's single track from Locust tower to Oyster bay, save for a short siding west of Oyster Bay station.
It was at one time single track from Glen Cove to Oyster Bay, but the second track was added in that section long ago (before 1900, perhaps).
Here are the sections of Single track that I know of:
Atlantic City line from the Delaire Bridge to Atlantic City (The station ahs more than one track), Port Jervis line North fo Suffern NY (and that used to be two tracks!) and Raritan Valley Line from Raritan to High Bridge.
The Dinky (Princeton Junction to Princeton, also know as the PJ&B- Princeton Junction and Back) is also one track.
MAY I ADD THE BOONTON LINE TO THE LIST
the gladstone branch is single track. there passing siding so two way traffic can be run
The Boonton Line is single track, but only from just west of Great Notch to Denville. Also a short stretch from the Hackensack River bridge to where the Boonton joins the Main Line.
The Pascack Valley Line is also single track.
It runs only southbound in the AM, and only northbound in the PM.
Technically, north of Suffern,the track belongs to NS (ALMOST said Conrail!), but is dispatched out of Hoboken by NJT north to Port...The descision to single track it however,was solely Conrails...
Ah yes! The line is *operated* by NJT,*for* Metro North and *uses* tracks now owned by NS. There is tons of conjecture that double track might be restored- we'll see!
Nice scenery there:went through there on 614- three times, one a nightmare trip of only 30 minutes in Port Jervis due to mech problems with 614 left on the side at campbell Hall.
The big problem right now being, of course, NS wants to increase their traffic to compete with CSX over on the West Shore, but MN wants to be able to increase service if the need arises....(I heard that since the local stops in Jersey have been eliminated, ridership from Orange Co is up about 10% in the last year)
I'm sure someone already added this, but the Oyster Bay is single track from Locust interlocking to Oyster Bay. Near the station, IIRC, there's a short passing siding (so a train can leave the station while another waits to enter), and then after the station, there is a small holding yard with about 4 tracks.
This is in Nassau County.
Not with the NEW High Level Platforms at Oyster Bay. The passing siding was left intact but if an inservice train took it, it would not stop at the high level platforms. Where the old station is (no crew house) the yard now is 3 or four tracks. The bypass track at the High Level platforms ends just before the first grade corssing (I think).
I've been held at OB waiting for the East Bound, what normaly happens is they will annouce the train your on in the station (High Level Platform) is out of service. Get everyone off, move it back to the old station and let the Eastbound arrive. LIRR may or may not state the arriving train is the one that would return. Sometimes it too yards and we wait for the orginal train to come back out and sometimes you just get on the arriving train.
The last one, is that the line which crosses Wellwood Av in Lindenhurst just south of 109 and the S.S. Pway?
Yes.
This line doesn't have any stations (any more). I believe the issue there is the ability to operate electric trains from east of Babylon onto the new 3-track main line.
It would be useful if they reopened the station that existed long ago at Wellwood near 109, but then they'd have to operate some kind of regular service.
[ It would be useful if they reopened the station that existed long ago
at Wellwood near 109, but then they'd have to operate some kind of
regular service. ]
(1) The LIRR doesn't open stations, they close them.
(2) Why would they have to provide regular service? There's plenty of stations out there already with very limited service -- LIC, HP Ave, greenport stations, etc. Surely a station on the central branch could be given service as often as LIC or HP Ave, if the trains currently using the branch would just stop there.
(Nothing earth shattering -- just better operation of some existing lines). I have no problem with the added tracks and electrification out there, but we could use some improvements in like that in the city. Mostly connections, as discussed before. Is the DeKalb to Rutgers connection in the TA plan? I don't think so.
Which city lines are single track? Which city lines need to be electrified? Which city lines don't have reverse rush hour service?
9/5/99
On an excursion into the city today I rode the #2 to Eastern Parkway station and Franklin Avenue stations in Brooklyn. One of these stations is supposed to have a transfer to the (S) Franklin Shuttle.
I didn't see anything even that would give a clue to a free transfer,not even new signs covered up awaiting the reopening of the line. I read in a post in SubTalk that the shuttle reopens Oct.3rd.
Any explanations out there !
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I posted the Oct. 3rd opening info. However, since that is a Sunday, I would assume that the idea is that the service will commence sometime that week or thereabouts. Again, my friend mentioned that Oct. 3 was the projected date for trains to start operating on the Franklin Shuttle -- but not necessarily in revenue service -- indicating "trial runs" of equipment over the infrastructure.
But I would hazard a guess that the line will officially open for passenger service around the middle of October, if no problems arise.
Perhaps the construction on the connection at Eastern Parkway is behind schedule, since it definitely was one of the much anticipated improvements the line was going to receive. Service could be instituted on the line while work continues on the connecting tunnel -- this would not be something new.
Doug aka BMTman
Its there all right. Signs arent up yet. Transfer will be reached via stairs at the west end of the IRT platform. These stairs have always been there waiting for the transfer to be built. In recent years they were boxed in by a tile wall (just recently removed) and they led to the District 32 transit police office (since moved to Carroll St adjacent to the shuttle ROW). The stairs are now hidden by plywood barracades. I was just in all this area on Friday. It looks pretty amazing, particularly compared to what it once looked like.
So where was the Transit Poloice Station in refernce to all of this???
3TM
Park Place-WTC. Transfer available to on the upper level to the A,C,E:8Av Express and local. M9,M10, and M22 on the street. Connection to the PATH service. The next station will be Chambers. Transfer available to the 1 and 9 service. M22 on the upper level. Stand Clear.......
So they built a new transfer using portions of a pre-existing structure so that they could avoid making the complex accessible?
-Hank
9/5/99
I did some riding today and rode those 9500 series R-36's on the (6).
I've seen slides over the years in the original paint as well as in fox red/black/silver on either Bway #1 or #6. I was wondering why these series of cars are on the mainline since when new they furnished all service to the World's Fair. Could the Flushing line be of surplus and they get sent over to mainline where demand for service is greater. Or did I just answer my own question! Anybody know something ??
Bill Newkirk
SEPTA's M-4 subway car is one of the best ones for subway buffs that I know of. Instead of the tiny window on the front and back doors, there is a huge window on the door and a large window to the left of the door, with three seats behind that window. PATCO has that also, except the windows aren't as large. Which other subway cars have a window like that?
You are sometimes in for a treat on the Wash/DC Metro. Depending on the position of the door to the T/O cab, you are sometimes able to see out of a large picture window on the front of the train.
The door for the T/O has two positions. It can either shut off the cab, or it can close to shut off the entire width of the train. In the former position, the passengers have access to a few seats that are adjacent to the cab and in front of the window. In the later position, those seats are part of the full-width cab.
I think that the door is in the "railfan window" position on the tail end of the train, and in the full-width position on the front, where the the T/O is.
Correct me if I am wrong--it is only a guess on my part based on limited experience.
Brandon Bostian
SEPTA's B-IV cars on the Broad Street Line have the same feature, but AFAIK the T/O end the cab door is at full width.
Peace,
Big D
Since the Broad Street line is OPTO the full-width cab must be in place in the operator's position. However, you can get a slightly murky view thru the smoked glass from the front seat.
This is one area in which the old cars were better. In those, there was a third window on the opposite side which could be used for railfan viewing, but it was high and required one to either stand, 'sit' on one's knees, or stand on the seat. I always preferred the door spot with the window open and, on the South Broad cars, the vent in the lower section of the door open also.
In reference to the first post on this subject, I don't know the exact sizes, but I wouldn't say that the M-4's front window is 'much larger' than that on the PATCO car. The PATCO car is wider (by over a foot) and the end door is much narrower. If I were a bettor, I would say that PATCO's is bigger in size, but your point is taken - both are great for railfans.
Bob your right the PATCO windows are larger for the railfan seats than that of the M-4s.
When the operator uses it for a cab they have the full front of the train The glass is dark bewteen the passenger and operators comparment but you can see through a bit but it is not easy When outside it is easier to see out the front through the dark windows.
When they are not used for cabs the door sections off the drivers area and opens up to the storm door and a passenger seat to the left of the cab.
The operators don't always leave the door open. It will be closed even when it is the end of the train taking away valuable seats and standing room at rush hour.
It as about the best viewing window you could possibly have on any subway car. You can sit in any of the (3) double seats opposite the operator's cab and get a great front view, the front seat being the best. Sometimes if you start at 69th st. or Frankford, if it's not quite time to leave, the operator will let you look inside the cab. The array of indicators and switches are awesome! Also, sometimes another SEPTA worker will open a service panel in back of the cab, full of indicator lights and write something in his/her report.
Long live fun riding the M4's!
Chuck Greene
Nah, the Almond Joys were more fun - an *openable* railfan window!!! litterally a *blast* The 2 person railfan seat on patco is nice too. Kinda like a slow motion roller coaster at times :)
That's what I miss most about the Almond Joys. During the winter, people would yell at you for opening the window, but I'd do it anyway. It was the only thing that would really wake me up in the morning.
I also miss the sound of the Almond Joys. You can still hear the ca-chunk-ca-chunks an M-4 makes on the elevated but it's muffled by the soundproofing. It was a real experience. I'd take an Almond Joy over an M-4 any day.
That window - aaaaaaaah, you opened it, and you felt like you were
IN the tunnel when the horn blew.
Which other subway cars have a window like that?
Chicago, up to (but not including) the 3200 series cars. Before OPTO, you could sit at the very front and have the same view as the train operator. Now, you have to sit (or stand) one seat length behind the operator's position, because the operator uses that area to open/close the doors opposite of the cab.
--Mark
Anyone out there know how many cars will comprise the Franklin Shuttle trains? How many cars to be allotted for the service? How many trains will operate at any given time? How long are the platforms and what is the maximum train length?
Mike H
What I heard was after the all R-68's are made into units, The last nine cars of the fleet (2916-2924) will remain as single units for Franklin Shuttle service. Train length will be two cars. Platforms are supposed to be only 160' in length. I think that is a mistake. Platforms should be 600' so there is an option for running Brighton line trains to Franklin Ave. (GO's,etc.) Does anyone have more info?
you've got it right, but the platforms are 170' long, not 160'.
David
What I heard was after the all R-68's are made into units, The last nine cars of the fleet (2916-2924) will remain as single units for Franklin Shuttle service. Train length will be two cars. Platforms are supposed to be only 160' in length. I think that is a mistake. Platforms should be 600' so there is an option for running Brighton line trains to Franklin Ave. (GO's,etc.) Does anyone have more info?
Even when there is a GO and no service beyond the Park, they run 8 32's and turn them over the local track through Prospect Park onto the Shuttle Tracks and back out on the CI bound local track.
This is what they did the last time there was no service past Prospect Park due to a GO, they ran Shuttle buses to Paciffic Street entrance. You exit Prospect Park though the never used back door (left of token booth) out to the buses.
I asked to stay on while they turned the train but was told no. I don't know why they didn't use a full 10 car train, maybe because of switch clearance and this was before the rebuild of the shuttle line.
You mean wasting money on quadrupling the length of the platforms just to support a completely useless train reroute that would probably never happen anyway?
Well. Isn't there free transfers at Botanic Garden and Franklin Ave??? If for some reason the trains can't run beyond Prospect Park, they can be re-routed to make transfers to other lines. If a GO is in affect, Two cars on the shuttle would never handle all those people. Especially those going to the Franklin Avenue IRT.
[...] completely useless train reroute [...]
What is your confidence level that we will someday have four usuable tracks on the Manhattan Bridge vs. zero usable tracks?
"An ounce of prevention" ... and all that.
If they really wanted a bridge reroute, they should have extended the open cut portion and hooked it into the Fulton Local. On the other hand, for the same money they could probably have hooked the H tracks directly into the Cranberry Tunnel.
9/6/99
This latest quiz can be found on the (B) or (M) West end train leaving 36th St going southbound to Ninth Ave. Unfortunatly the T.A.
erected some storage building there so refer to your memory or old photos.
When ramping up to daylight and just before entering the old brick lined tunnel. There are two tunnel pockets in the wall on your far right. One pocket suggests room for a 2 track tunnel and one pocket suggests room for a one track tunnel. I was told years ago that one of those pockets,either the one or two track pocket was for a bypass tunnel for the South Brooklyn Railway. The tunnels were never constructed and although graffittied the pockets today remain. The $1.50 Metrocard question is what was the intention for those pockets.
Was my answer for one being used for the SBK right ??
Bill Newkirk
Actually, I thought those pockets were used at one point, because just west of Ninth Ave right at the entrance for the CI-bound track there is a trackless tunnel entrance which is pointed toward the interlocking at Ninth Avenue. Anyone know for sure if anything was built?
Last Saturday, I was riding an R68A B Train on the Manhattan Bridge and I saw 8 car Slant R40s on the D Train. Does anybody know about this?
Just a guess but maybe there was lack of equipment so they used the Q train slants for that train?.
Peace Out
-Clayton
Wouldn't be an 8-car train of 60-footers; more than likely ten cars.
It also wouldn't surprise me if they put up a slant on the "D" if they were short some equipment; most of the slants are resting on the weekend.
Wayne
If that was in fact a D train of slant R-40s, I would have loved to have taken it up CPW. The slants could really strut their stuff on that stretch!
i saw it too,on saturday going to coney island. wasnt sure if it was D or B. anyone know,let me know.
I can verify there was a B (as in Bravo) train of Slant 40's running on Saturday; I rode it from 34th Street to West 4th Street (2 min, 18 seconds :-).
On weekends the B line borrows R40 Slants from the Q line. They go in service at Coney Island.
Are you sure sure the destination signs had the D on it? I saw it too when I was walking to Brighton Beach. I was half a block away and i could have sworn it was a Q with 10 cars.
Just reading over the DEIS executive summary for the East River Transit Alternatives Study.
Guess what. Canal Street is modified so that express trains run down to Whitehall and turn around, or go through the Motingue St tunnel. The Manhattan Bridge is hooked up to local service.
The goal is to get Upper East Side residents to Lower Manhattan faster without changing trains. The price is getting Brooklyn riders to Midtown SLOWER no matter WHAT train they take. Of course, the proposal does not include the full Second Avenue subway, which would allow Brooklyn services to run direct to East Midtown.
The MTA knows there is not one single politician in Brooklyn who cares about this, is intellegent enough to read the executive summary (20 pages), and is motivated enough to show up at a hearing. ARRGH!
This makes sense only if you plan on abandoning the bridge, and want to save time for Brooklyn residents in the Montiguetunnel. But in that case, there is still not enough capacity, especially if you don't build the DeKalb to Rutgers connection.
What not just eliminate subway service in Brooklyn and use the rails to move out gargage!
Just to add a little counter argument in the MTA's favor, based on grabbing the schedules the best I can before the MTA grabs them back and comparing with other lines:
The Montigue tunnel addeds 6 minutes to the trip vs. the bridge.
Express from Chambers to 42nd on the IRT saves 5 minutes vs. local.
Therefore, the switch, combined with more trains through the tunnel, only loses one minute to Midtown, with Downtown available also. That's an alternative view.
Even intelligent schemes don't get adopted for decades, if ever.
I wouldn't worry too much about the hair-brained ones.
Use the bridge to move garbage. Hmmmm. Thats a GREAT idea. The NYCTA could use grants destined for the Dept of Sanitation to build an under river tube to Statan Island and save hundreds of thousands in service contracts with Waste Management Services. They could run the IRT and BMT pickups directly to Fresh Kills to unload. Heck, they could bypass NY Cross Harbor and South Brooklyn by shipping the redbirds directly to Sarnelli Bros through the new tubes.
I don't know... the Canal St. Manhattan Bridge Station is looking better every day. There is new tile on the side opposite the walkway and I've seen workers down there every day. Unless you're saying that trains would still cross the bridge and then go local on Broadway...
Mike
You know what? They shouldn't even think about changing the trains on the 6th Avenue Line. They can add some other routes to the Broadway Line. You have to see the Q Trains during rush hour. The trains are packed end to end. Now if you move it to Broadway what would happen to the passengers. Most of them ride to Kings Highway. They have to transfer to get home faster. Anyway It'll be easier for Broadway to adapt to new lines than for 6th Avenue to lose a line.
It would be easier for Broadway to adapt to a new line. 6th Avenue is
very overcrowded. There is too much service on 6th Avenue with the B,
D and Q all express.
It would be easier for Broadway to adapt to a new line. 6th Avenue is
very overcrowded. There is too much service on 6th Avenue with the B,
D and Q all express.
DOesn't maka a difference to me. I never take the Broadway BMT anyway. I have taken it from COurt to 8th during PM Rush. I got an N which had about 1/2 the seats taken in each car. It didn't take long either. If the MTA finds that running the N through the tunnel isn't slower and doesn't turn people away, they should keep it in the tunnel and NOT finish the bridge (since they never will).
Well, that would seem to explain the seeming unsalvageable condition of the former Canal Street 'express' BMT level.
If they work hard enough at it, they CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. To wit: 3rd Avenue-149th Street (although I totally disagree with the architectural treatemnt), and 36th Street-4th Avenue in Brooklyn, among others. The main concern I have regarding Canal-Broadway station (as I call it) is the precarious condition of parts of the ceiling, which are forming stalactites and turning to powder due to persistent leaks, which may or may not have been plugged. If they are thorough in their work, then this problem will be properly addressed and remedied.
Wayne
And if they do the job "business as usual" ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems that the recent TA station jobs are unlikely to last as long as the orignials, or as long as the bonds issued to pay for them. Its consistent with overall city policy -- finance a 10 year repair with a 30 year bond, and then move to North Carolina. But I digress...
How about the original point. Will Brooklyn be better off or worse off if the BMT Broadway Express tracks are hooked into the Montigue Tunnel, and the local tracks head east over the Manhattan Bridge? It certainly will be worse off if they short-turn some express trains at Whitehall or City Hall, and the crawl from Pacific to Canal Street is awful.
On the other hand, if the express trains were to skip Canal (you'd have to transfer at DeKalb/Pacific or at Union Square) the straight shot up Broadway express and avoiding the bridge might avoid counter-balance the trip through Downtown. You could continue to run two services on Broadway via tunnel, and they would be full rather than empty.
It makes sense that the tunnels should be hooked up to express tracks, since they are more viable in the long run. Perhaps they should do the same flip/flop on 6th Avenue. After connecting the DeKalb tracks to the Rutgers tunnel, the tunnel trains could be moved to the express tracks. After installing a switch somewhere on the Willie B connection, the trains via bridge could become locals. At least if Brooklyn ends up with three tunnels and no bridge, the tunnels would be better connected, and there would be express runs on the other side.
Just reading over the DEIS executive summary for the East River Transit Alternatives Study.
Is this document available on the web somewhere?
--Mark
Check out the official MTA website. The summary is available in Adobe Acrobat. It also says where the three volume monstrosity is located. Anyone (but a lawyer for an Upper East Side NIMBY planning to disrupt the project by suing) willing to read that one?
Guess what. Canal Street is modified so that express trains run down to Whitehall and turn around, or go through the Motingue St tunnel. The Manhattan Bridge is hooked up to local service.
The goal is to get Upper East Side residents to Lower Manhattan faster without changing trains. The price is getting Brooklyn riders to Midtown SLOWER no matter WHAT train they take. Of course, the proposal does not include the full Second Avenue subway, which would allow Brooklyn services to run direct to East Midtown.
I take it that this plan is part of the first phase of 2nd Av (above 63rd). That's the only way it would give upper east side a one seat ride.
i don't see why that would be necessary. They could always switch one of the expresses to the tunnel (they plan to do this with the N if the bridge is fully open, since Astoria is so fixed to lower Manh. service. It would only run over the bridge peak direction from Brooklyn. That way, both Bklyn and Queens would get the services most beneficial to them)
If they want to recongigure the area, they should hook the exp. up to both the bridge, and the tracks to City Hall (locals would be moved out, and branch of exp moved into their place. Then, perhaps, the lower level City hall tracks could be extended and rejoin the lcal tracks between there and Cortlandt, if possible.
It would be tough to do much of anything with the lower level City Hall station, since it's boxed in to both the south and west by the IND `A' train tunnel, and can't go straight down Broadway, since the IRT has that closed off.
They could still use the station as a terminal stop for express trains from the Upper East Side or Queens via 63rd St., but that would have to go along with that local/express swap Larry was talking about, because they're not going to fix up the junction bewtween Canal and Prince streets just to have the express trains go down to City Hall.
I went to investigate the condition of the rebuilt line since I was at the Caribbean Day Parade at Eastern Parkway.
I walked over to St. John's Place and saw the the street bridge had not been completed (this is the job of DOT not the NYCT), but shouldn't prevent trains from running through the cut.
I then went over to Sterling Place and took a shot of the switch where the single track leading to Park Place and the double-tracks running south to Botanic Gardens converge. I also crossed to the southside of the street to take a picture of the single track running to Park Place station.
Everything looks ready for passenger service!
Doug aka BMTman
Will the R142's be around for my next Subway tour on 6th November 1999 and if so is it possible to go and look at them being tested.
Simon
Swindon UK
Based on Bombardier's quality control reputation (ask Amtrak right about now), its doubtful. If you're lucky, the first set may be delivered for testing by then up on the Dyer Ave. line.
Based on Bombardier's quality control reputation (ask Amtrak right about now), its doubtful.
True, Bombardier's reputation hasn't been that good lately, but don't forget...the Kawasaki R142's could arrive before them....but I'm not saying that their reputation is any better!
I don't know why the R142
s are having such problems....Boston's red line 01800 series runs beutifully...and they are hi-tech, and built by Bombardier. -Nick
After seeing the Kawasaki-built R62's put up the best MDBF of any subway car to date, and the way the Kawasaki-built R68A's outperform the Bombardier R68's, it's a small wonder why the MTA didn't just give the entire R142 contract to Kawasaki.
9/7/99
Chris,I believe the R-68's and R-68-1's were Westinghouse Amrail products,not Bombardier !
Bill Newkirk
Yes. They were built by ANF-Westinghouse (AMRAIL), with some cars showing subcontractor/sub-builders as JEUMONT-SCHNEIDER and ALSTHOM (which as we all know, now is AdTRANZ). I'm not sure just what the split is - the higher numbered units seem to be the Alsthom ones.
Wayne
the 5000 series cars the R68A are KAWASAKI Products
while the R68 2000 series are the AMRAIL Consortium
Yes they are. My mistake. I thought they had built the R68's. Has Bobardier built any other MTA subway car??
As far as I know, Bombardier has only built the R142 and R110B. Like I mentioned earlier, they built Boston's red line 01800 series, which are similar to the R143/R110B, and run very well. But Kawasaki built the R-62's, in addition to the R110A and R142. -Nick
The R-62A was built by Bombardier. That's a large set of cars, bigger than any other fleet.
[ As far as I know, Bombardier has only built the R142 and R110B. Like I
mentioned earlier, they built Boston's red line 01800 series, which
are similar to the R143/R110B, and run very well. But Kawasaki built
the R-62's, in addition to the R110A and R142. ]
Bombardier built the R62A's, which are all the stainless cars on the IRT, except for the R62's on the #4 (and the 110A). A significant number of cars.
If I remember correctly, that order has turned out OK.. Not as well as the Kawasaki R62's, but still a good experience.
After the R-44 and R-46 debacles, the MTA simplified its technical requirements for the R-62/62A, which contributed to their reliability. The R-142s are going to be more of a roll of the high-tech dice, so we'll have to see if those trains are going to be plug and play on the IRT or if they'll need major tinkering.
Fear not, Simon. The twilight of the Redbirds is certainly a long one. I don't see the R142s entering service until next summer at the very earliest, so Redbirds should be around for some time to come.
Wayne
After spending the summer back home in the Big Apple, riding the subway on a regular basis like I did while in high school, I can truly say that I'm very disappointed with the way the MTA does things. Just when I thought the MTA might actually be changing its ways for the better, they go out and prove me wrong.
I heard in April on SubTalk that we might see the first set of R142s on about May 21. Over three months have passed since that date and not once did I see this set of cars that are supposed to bring the 2, 5, and 7 lines into the modern era, not even in the yard! I checked the subway car pictures here on Subtalk to see if maybe the cars did come. And wouldn't you know it, but all I saw were the same three pictures of the R142 mockup, no actual cars themselves!
First they said the new cars were coming in 1995, then 1997, then 1999. Now I'm hearing 2000! So my home subway line, the good, I mean bad, old #2 line is going to be forced to operate with those ugly, noisy, rusty, smelly, ancient Redbeasts where there seem to be two cars (never in the same pair) that have broken A/C in every consist.
Has the MTA not punished #2 train riders enough? Why was the #2 never considered for getting the nice R62s/62As in 1983 and 1984. It seemed to be one of the biggest targets for grafitti. Why didn't we get the 62s? We didn't get florescent platform lights until 1997 and Pelham Parkway still doesn't have them. The Bronx section is still using ancient jointed rail, as opposed to modern welded rail. And it is so slow! Why can't it at least be express in the Bronx during rush hours?
And now no new subway cars until next century! Does the word "jinxed" ring a bell to anyone other than me? The curse of the 2 train is still on! It's never going to end.
Don't count on seeing new subway cars on the 2, 5, and 7 lines. Their delivery date will be the 12th of Never. They're not coming. And don't place blame solely on Bombardier and Kawasaki. The MTA and New York State are the real culprits here! They screwed this up! But then again, the MTA and New York State screw up everything they do. Forget about the R142s and R143s. They're never going into service.
OK, the cars have been built and are in Plattsburgh, New York for final testing before delivery. Even if the cars were delivered in May, they would still be in testing and NOT IN SERVICE! The 5 runs express in the Bronx. The MTA HAS NEVER promised any subway cars for service in 1995 or 1997. The R-142s will be in service in the Summer of Fall of 2000 (or even Spring). Which means that, unless you live in the "Romans had a concept of zero" dimension, that's still the Twentieth Century.
Finally! Someone who understands that the new millenium starts on Jan 1st, 2001, not Jan 1st., 2000. Most people who I tell that to laugh at me.
It's even better than that, ChrisR. A "new millennium" begins every second (or less!). A "millennium" is a collection of a thousand years.
What we have on January 1, 2000 is the "odometer change." That's all.
(Millenium in just a collection of 1,000 years, and could start and end at any point).
All the more reason that the millenium is whenever most people say it is, just like a meter is a meter because that's what most people think, and the word "go" means "go" because that's what most people think. Anyway, scholars now place Jesus' birth in a different year. So much for A.D.
Personally, I'm more interested in the turn of the century, since I have data for 1900. No one else is interested, though.
You say the cars have been built. Does that mean they are all done and are being tested on tracks in Plattsburgh right now? How long will it take to test them on subway tracks after delivery before they are accepted?
I know the Romans didn't have a zero. But that's not going to stop the hotels, Disneyworld and Times Square from having their new millenium celebrations THIS December 31. But if the R142s continue to have so much trouble, then it may very well be next century, that is 2001, before they finally enter service.
Depends on whether or not someone accidentally runs them off the end of the track again. Whoops!
Rim shot!!
lets see the cars are being manufactured by skill-less NON UNION LABOR number#1 people who possibly wouldn't know what a subway or rail car is( I was going to say wouldn't know their *ss from their elbow) well hey didn't they already operate the train in reverse on a test track and derail it too? poor shoddy workmanship caused delays and the new procurement process to eliminate delivery of poor quality rolling stock not to mention TA engineers going back and changing designs/specs every few seconds really hasn't helped much..
as far as the #2 the DUECE seeing any new trains soon I wouldn't hold my breath. Why the R62a's never stayed on the line i'll never know...
Here's what I'd like to know: Would it still be possible to make more subway cars similar to the R62/62A? I know that the R127/134 garbage train units are very similar in overall shape to the 62s. Is there also some kind of off-the-shelf car on the market that might fit into the IRT tunnels?
[ Here's what I'd like to know: Would it still be possible to make more
subway cars similar to the R62/62A? ]
You can still build identical cars to the R62's. You could even call them R62B's, if you wanted.
[ I know that the R127/134 garbage
train units are very similar in overall shape to the 62s. ]
They are also pretty much mechanically identical as well, except for the lack of A/C (and I would imagine, P/A systems, and possibly door controls might be different).
The R62's have worked out very well, but the propulsion advances in the R142's are worth abandoning the SMEE system for. They can be made significantly more efficient, between A/C propulsion, and regenerative braking, to make a serious impact on energy use. The propulsion stuff they're using _should_ be well understood by now -- it's modern, but definately not cutting edge.
I think getting 5 car sets is overdoing it, though. I think that married pairs are the best compromise between eliminating redundant equipment, and providing operation flexibility.
(not to mention that it's real expensive and difficult to preserve 5 car sets in museums!).
since the R62(A) and R68(A) were built the ADA arrived and new cars must meet ADA specs such as wheelchair space, wider doors, etc.
Why TA spent all the money using buying R127/134 for work motors is insane when using other equipment such as R17 or R21/22 could have been more cost efficient in terms of labor versus the cost of the new rolling stock for non revenue stock...
QUESTION;;
is there anyone like me who is taking pictures of the
LOS ANGELES RED GREEN BLUE rail lines here in
LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA !!!! the metro rail systems if so
please contact me at salaamallah@yahoo.com
P O BOX 6301 altadena california 91001
also how about the san diego red trolley ?????
thank you salaam allah
When I was in LA and San Diego a few years ago I took pictures of the LA Metro Blue Line and the San Diego Trolley. I plan to visit those 2 cities again in the future and take more pictures of the mentioned Subway and Rail systems. I like all of these systems.
I've had a question about the LA rail transit system ever since it opened: are people using it in significant numbers? I mean, one can read the ridership statistics from the LACMTA website or from the Federal Transit Administration, but do the train cars LOOK full? On weekends or only on weekdays? At night and other off-peak hours? Does the Green Line (which doesn't go downtown) look significantly less busy than the Red or Blue Lines?
The main reason I ask is that, in many things but especially for public transit, perception becomes reality. If people see mostly-empty trains, few will ride, out of safety concerns as well as "it must not be any good if hardly anybody is riding". But if passersby see filled (but not necessarily overcrowded) trains, they will be more likely to ride. If nothing else, it makes it a little easier to defend financing transit from the general treasury when non-transit-riders can at least see that the trains are well-used. Near-empty buses and trains tend to get motorists to start clucking about "government wasting our tax dollars" and such.
I believe the system is underutilized. I stations look fantastic especially at Hollywood and Vine.
How are your doing John?
"How are you doing, John?"
As a friend of mine is fond of saying whenever he's asked how he is, "Could be better, could be worse." An all-purpose answer that fits whether things are going well or badly, since even when things are bad, they could be worse, and even if everything is going fine, things could even be better. :^)
Seriously, not bad. Even though I work in the Loop, I went downtown on the subway (Blue Line) for Labor Day. The trains (and buses from what I could see) were very busy, although that may be a function of running on a Sunday schedule even though Labor Day is a big "go downtown and walk down Michigan Avenue or along Navy Pier" holiday. And boy, were people doing just that! I can understand not running a weekday schedule on a holiday, but some holidays, like Labor Day, are more suited to a Saturday schedule than a Sunday one. The subway trains are still only about 10 minutes apart, at least on the Blue Line, so it's not **too** bad, but every seat on the trains was taken.
When I was in LA and San Diego a few years ago I took pictures of the LA Metro Blue Line and the San Diego Trolley. I plan to visit those 2 cities again in the future and take more pictures of the mentioned Subway and Rail systems. I like all of these systems.
I've had a question about the LA rail transit system ever since it opened: are people using it in significant numbers? I mean, one can read the ridership statistics from the LACMTA website or from the Federal Transit Administration, but do the train cars LOOK full? On weekends or only on weekdays? At night and other off-peak hours? Does the Green Line (which doesn't go downtown) look significantly less busy than the Red or Blue Lines?
The main reason I ask is that, in many things but especially for public transit, perception becomes reality. If people see mostly-empty trains, few will ride, out of safety concerns as well as "it must not be any good if hardly anybody is riding". But if passersby see filled (but not necessarily overcrowded) trains, they will be more likely to ride. If nothing else, it makes it a little easier to defend financing transit from the general treasury when non-transit-riders can at least see that the trains are well-used. Near-empty buses and trains tend to get motorists to start clucking about "government wasting our tax dollars" and such.
I believe the system is underutilized. I stations look fantastic especially at Hollywood and Vine.
How are your doing John?
"How are you doing, John?"
As a friend of mine is fond of saying whenever he's asked how he is, "Could be better, could be worse." An all-purpose answer that fits whether things are going well or badly, since even when things are bad, they could be worse, and even if everything is going fine, things could even be better. :^)
Seriously, not bad. Even though I work in the Loop, I went downtown on the subway (Blue Line) for Labor Day. The trains (and buses from what I could see) were very busy, although that may be a function of running on a Sunday schedule even though Labor Day is a big "go downtown and walk down Michigan Avenue or along Navy Pier" holiday. And boy, were people doing just that! I can understand not running a weekday schedule on a holiday, but some holidays, like Labor Day, are more suited to a Saturday schedule than a Sunday one. The subway trains are still only about 10 minutes apart, at least on the Blue Line, so it's not **too** bad, but every seat on the trains was taken.
I was once looking down into Sunnyside Yards from the sidewalk overpass, and I saw a GG1 raising its pans and way before it touched the wires, a flaming arc shot down. It really was awesome, seeing that flaming arc empowering the G. 1st-- Anybody ever see that? 2nd -- Assuming that this was real, did anyone ever capture that on a photo, slide , or movie?
I used to watch the New Haven Locos and MUs reach for the wire north of 238th St in the Bronx. Normally, there was only minor arching. I never saw it on a rainy or snowy day. There were plenty of fireworks from the 3rd Ave El when it still had the uncovered third rail. Even on the NYC Harlem division, with its underruning third rail, it was not uncommon to have a fire started by an arching locomotive on a dry day.
Somewhere in a book I read - I think it was one of Don Ball's, but I'm not sure - there was a photograph of E-44 4444 arcing (the number is probably the only reason I remember the shot). Whether or not the pan was being raised at that time or if there was some sort of problem I don't recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Watch the "DC motor test" at New haven before departure. Not one pan dropping and arcing but *four* one on every other car! Scares the ^*&% out of you the first time!! High voltage, ice storms, and nightime also make for some dramatic scenes on Metro-North. I remember once at Mineola watching an LIRR train run express through the station, at speed, durring an icy rainy storm one morning. Not only did you SEE the arcing (and it WAS arcing!!!) you heard it!!! *bang bangbang bang!*
Most, if not all of the older motors will arc when the pan drops - I'm not sure on the AEM-7 or ALP-44 - Erik?
All weekend the nothbound local track (D2) has been out of service from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt Ave. A trailing point switch leading from the new 63 St. connection has been installed. Last Memorial Day weekend, a turnout from the south express D3 track was installed. 2 down, 2 to go!
Yep, those two might be done, however when I look down from track D3 lately, I see no trackage leading down towards the tunnel! When will that occur?
Tracks will be installed when the connection is finished-8 to 12 months.
I have been one of the flagmen protecting the workers there. It's amazing watching them weld third rail segments. They build an oven around the rail, and pour gnpowder into it. Then they light it up. What a fire!
Those guys work real fast. On friday night they began pulling up the temporary ballasted track, and by Sat afternoon they had the switch in. On sat night they poured the new concrete. That is surely a sight to watch.
Last night they finished up the detail work like third rail protectiion board.
It will probably take another three day weekend before they install the switches for 4 and 1.
I walked down the ramps. They are laying skelotonized track about 1000 feet from the bumping block past 21 St.
The tunnel is still not fully lined at the point where the excavation is that can be seen from the Astoria line.
Best estimate by the workers (probably more reliable than the TA's) is the line will be ready to open in fall of next year.
It's amazing watching them weld third rail segments. They build an oven around the rail, and pour gnpowder into it. Then they light it up. What a fire!
Gunpowder? A thermite-derivative, surely.
Gunpowder probably wouldn't burn hot enough to weld rail.
Fall 2000 opening? It will surely be needed as a bypass to the E & F route from Queens Plaza to Fifth Ave. Lots of work is needed in this area. And it can be done when the 63rd St. extension opens. The switches at Fifth Ave. are pounded by trains 24/7. These switches will need to be replaced. Major station renovation at Lex./53 is sorely needed. Improvements to the 53rd St. tube are needed in the area of drainage and emergency tunnel lighting. There is also a water problem on D4 track from Fifth Ave. to Lex. The scope of work needed in this area would be virtually impossible to do without the ability to reroute trains via 63rd St. at least nights and weekends. They can do one direction at a time.
Yes, I've seen the condition of the ceilings over the trackways at Lexington-53rd. Atrocious. Hideous. Leaks everywhere. This station needs major renovation SOON or it'll become another Chambers Street.
Wayne
Bill, your comments are right on target.
For those of you who are members of the NY Division of the ERA, read your September newsletter carefully. In Dave Erlitz' column on "forecasted projects" you'll see a preliminary plan to do work just as Bill suggests, and mentions that the 63rd Street connection could be used as a diversion. But as Dave caveats, these are tentative plans and subject to change. But it's interesting reading and thought-provoking! (Another one that caught my eye was a plan to do work at Chambers St., and route the E to Euclid Ave. Hey Steve! Where will you get those extra cars from? (OOPS! It's not Steve's problem anymore :))
How could the Cranberry St. tunnel handle the A, C AND E service? Especially during rush hour. A better idea might be re-routing the E to 2nd Ave.
Beats me! You might email Dave Erlitz, the author of the article (maybe he'll even join our SubTalk forum!). The referenced article was in the September issue of the NY Division of the ERA. Membership/subscription information is available from:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era
How about Metropolitan? I guess that's no good, because it would have to have 8 cars. But then for the C on the other hand, it wouldn't be a problem. But then that's more routes out of place.
Well, if the Sixth Ave. line can handle B/D/Q service between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center on one track, Cranberry can probably take A/C/E , though the MTA might cut a trip of Cs or Es overall to ease the crowding.
The A and E run every 4-5 minutes during rush hours. The only way B, D and Q trains can all squeeze on the Manhattan Bridge is because they have cut service on each line. Maximum headway is what, 6 minutes per train? Unacceptable for the E, and probably for the A. And we all know how SLOW Manhattan Bridge service gets at 8:30 Am.
Why not just terminate the C at WTC and run the E to Euclid Avenue through the Cranberry Street Tunnel at all times? This way the E could also run express down 8th Avenue. Why make what is just a simple route switch into a huge construction project?
According to what I read, the terminal tracks will be out-of-service 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. So nothing can terminate at WTC.
I don't think Fulton St. local capacity warrants running the E to Euclid. I would do it anyway, because it provides Fulton St. local passengers with express service in Manhattan and would eliminate an annoying crossover at Canal St. But would the reduction of service at Spring and 23rd be justified, with only the C serving those stops?
I work at 23rd and 8th. I have a large Asian ridership asking for the E train. It is rough overnight when I have to tell them the E is on the F line uptown till October(due to a G.O.) I can not repeat the thoughts I get and actions from the passengers with no E train!
Just tell 'em to take the A/C down to W4th St. No big deal.
It is a big deal when the comprehension of the English language is nil!
If they can't understand English, then they're on their own. Immigrants should be able to speak English, but that's getting way off topic.
[ I work at 23rd and 8th. I have a large Asian ridership asking for the
E train. It is rough overnight when I have to tell them the E is on
the F line uptown till October(due to a G.O.) I can not repeat the
thoughts I get and actions from the passengers with no E train! ]
Well, that situation is worse than if the C and E switched routes from 53/8 southward. In that case, people wanting to get to Queens on the E from 23rd St would just take the C local to 34th (or 42nd, where it's across the platform), and change there. Less convenient, but not as bad as having to walk to 6th Ave, backtrack to W4th, or whatever other reasonable means to get to 6th Ave/Queens Blvd trains.
maybe the G.O. notice should be posted in Asain?
Good idea; But Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Phillipino, Vietnamese,...
I think you get the point!
O.K. How about switching the E after it leaves W Fourth St. to the F tracks to B'Way/Lafayette, run it through the Rutgers St. tunnel and then switch back to the A/C line at Jay St.-Borough Hall. That would leave three trains on one track only between Jay and Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and if there are still too many trains for that, some of the E trains could continue to Smith-9th and be turned there.
This would create a bottleneck north of Jay St. Not a good idea.
thats the best idea posted for this reroute
It would be time consuming because the E train would have to stop at Bway Lafayette to punch his ID because Essex St. Tower controls Second Ave. interlocking. Also, a "call on" must be taken (stop at homeball and activate lever to drive the stop arm down) upon entering Second Ave. relay tracks. Meanwhile the E will certainly delay the F behind it because this move is made at less than 10 MPH and the F has to wait at Bway-Lafayette for the E to clear the switch. The E & F can run together from 71 Continental to Fifth Ave with 2 trains every 5 minutes because the trains move at maximum speed. With the above slow movement from W4 to Second Ave., the railroad will be backed up to 34 St. at least, on both Sixth & Eighth Aves. I am formulating MY service plan in my head and I will discuss it as soon as I have it completely formulated!
Pray tell what mischief might they be planning at Chambers Street-WTC (the "E" platform)? Installing the station name captions they FORGOT to put up during the original rehab? Plastering more eyes onto the wall? Anyway, they might be better off sending the "E" via the Broadway line to Whitehall Street, which is closer to the WTC than is 2nd Avenue. They might be able to squeeze three services through the Cranberry Tube if they orchestrate it carefully, leaving little or no margin for delays, etc. Once clear of the two-track bottleneck, they should have no trouble out to Euclid.
Wayne
Perhaps another solution would be to send the C to Second Ave and the E to Euclid.
But what needs to be done at WTC that would require major re-routing? Hasn't that station been renovated already?
They're redoing the switches.
Although on paper the headway through Cranberry is every 4 or so minutes, Whenever I take the C, t is much longer (except for the PM rush around 5, Brooklyn bound. Then and only then do I see one train behind the other.) So in practice, they could fit the E. Still, this would be a perfect time to test ridership through the outer Chrystie St. tracks to the Eastern Div. Why keep going by what didn't work 25 years ago?
[ So in practice, they could fit the E. Still, this
would be a perfect time to test ridership through the outer Chrystie St. tracks to the Eastern Div. Why keep going by what didn't work 25
years ago? ]
Ahh, the perfect time to make the "E" into the Jamaica to Jamaica via Bridge and Tunnel!
If they did that, they would have to shorten the E to 8 cars because of the short platforms in the Eastern Division, and they're not going to do that with any Queens Blvd.-Manhattan service.
I doubt the Cranberry St tunnel could handle traffic from the A, C and E service during rush hours without service cuts on some lines.
Why not use the Rutgers tunnel during rush hours? It should have ample capacity. Both ends link up at W. 4th and Jay Sts.
Too complicated for a temporary re-routing. You gotta keep it simple or people get stupid. You should have seen the sheer panic on peoples faces on a B train I was on when it was announced it was running to Coney Island via the Sea Beach express. The conductor explained FOUR times what was happening and what you had to do to get to statons along the West End line, yet there still were people standing half way in the train confused beyond belief.
> was running to Coney Island via the Sea Beach express......
> had to do to get to statons along the West End line,
I bet this is because many people don't know what Sea Beach and West End mean any more...
-Dave
The problem is: half the people in New York don't understand English, and the other half don't listen!
Another idea is to send the E to Church Av., giving the F a chance to go Express, and the local riders would have more than just the G, and still have the one seat ride to Manhattan.
I doubt that would happen due to the obvious logistical nightmare of trying to shoehorn 3 routes thru the Cranberry tube.
Also WTC is a major destination point for IND patrons connecting to/from the PATH trains. Closing down the WTC terminal would force soemone heading in from the PATH trains to either sue the 1/9 or N?R stops nearby or try to make their way thru a m aze of hallways to the A line platform @ Chambers Street. Either way, all 3 of those stations would get dangerously overcowded during rush hours. All in all, closing the WTC plats would not be an option.
I think that if E service is revised in the future, it would run from Jamaica Ctr via Queens Blvd Express and then via 8th Ave Express
and Fulton Local to Euclid Ave. Personally I feel that such a revision should include service all the way to Lefferts Blvd, replacing the A. As part of this chnage the C would run as a strict 8th Ave local service(which should consist of 10-car trains) between WTC and 168th Street. Such services would likely operate daily from 6A-12M, during overnite hours, the E would operate via 8th Ave local to WTC.
As far thas the E is concerned, I can see that happening around the time of the opening of the last leg of the 63rd street tube. By doing that my guess is that the E line's base could be shifted from Jamaica to Pitkin Yard which would allow room for whatver line will be serving Queens via 63rd Street. The C would of course be based out of Washington Hts Yard.
If the Manhattn Bridge closes fully, the East River Crossings study included an idea to make the E the Express to the Rockaways, and the A local on Fulton (still exp. in Manh.) to Euclid. (C to WTC, of course). This was to give additional service for the new Frankin transfer. But with 2 car trains, squeezing into a single track for half of the shuttle (max. 7 min headways), how many people would even be able to get to the beefed up Fulton Service? That was such a stupid move, and will spoil the sight of the rebuilt Shuttle. (I hope they at least left room for reexpansion)
Replacing the diamond crossover at WTC may be the reason. Why not the E to Second Ave.? The E picks up lots of passengers destined for Jamaica at WTC. All they would have to do is use the main-line platform. With the A/C there, both services terminate uptown. With the A/E there, one goes all the way uptown, and one goes to midtown, then Queens. I wouldn't send the E to Whitehall because the E shuttles loads of people from Lex., Fifth, and Seventh Ave's. down to Penn Station.
I have also heard about work to be done at WTC. My guess, if the E went to Euclid temporarily, it would take the place of the C in Brooklyn. Perhaps the C could discharge at W4 and relay at Second Ave. for n/b service back uptown. This could negate the need for lots of extra cars.
Anther possibility is the C being terminated at Canal St. and the recently replaced middle track north of Chambers St. being used to relay them.
There is another G.O. on the E next week- 9/14 to 9/24/1999 from 12:01am to 5:00 AM-- The E will run via the R from Whitehall to Queens-- in BOTH directions. This ends at 5am Friday Mornings-no work Friday Night/Saturday Morning until Midnight Monday Night/Tuesday Morning. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop on that one [No Weekend E all weekend!]
that means.. I tell them no E to Queens (until Midnight) and then No E in either direction--that means twenty minutes between trains-- only one choice!(I already tell them to walk to Sixth Ave rather than wait forty minutes-- wait for downtown to West 4th and wait 20 minutes for the E on the F, and that wont work next week!!)
I don't schedule the trains, but I'd schedule the A nd E to be ten minutes apart South of 42 to Canal so there is 10 minutes between trains. Same for CPW with the A and D rather than wait 20 minuets then two trains within 2-3 minutes!
To our dispatcher types-- would that work or would there be problems such as has been posted with the N/R
That is the biggest problem working those late PM and midnite jobs no matter what your function is in the TA. Fortunately, my working hours on the E no longer make it necessary for me to deal with that stuff.
Certainly they should try to get even 10-minute intervals between trains when there are two services running on a track at night, but I doubt it is always possible.
Hopefully this will be done with the 1 and 2 on the west side IRT and the 4 and 6 on the east side IRT when they go to the "two locals/no express" configuration next month. For the downtown trains, it means counting on there being no delays in the Bronx, so that trains arrive at 125th St./Lexington Ave. or 96th St./Broadway on schedule. For uptown trains, the locals not coming from Brooklyn can be held a few minutes to even things up before returning uptown if there are delays in trains from Brooklyn.
Of course, they should try to interleave the trains evely even during the day, but it isn't always possible, especially on the B division where trains merge, separate, and merge with other trains. On the A division (IRT), it should be just barely possible, but again only if there are no delays on any of the feeder lines. For example, if the 2 from 241st and the 5 from Dyre are timed to interleave evenly at 180th St., then that timing also determines what the departure times of the 4 from Woodlawn would be, to interleave with the 5 at 149th, and what the departure times of the 3 from Lenox Terminal should be, to interleave with the 2. Any delays anywhere will throw everything off. And if you want to have the 2 and the 4 meet up at Nevins St., well, too bad, all the times have already been determined. The timing there will be whatever it happens to be, unless trains are deliberately delayed somewhere en route to force this meeting.
I am wondering to what extent this kind of interleaving succeeds, and even to what extent it is even attempted in the current schedules. Certainly they should try to do this to the extent that it is possible.
As I was returning from today's Parade, I biked along Van Sinderen. I saw something interesting underneath the Canarsie L structure. There were two boxcars on a siding approximately beneath the Livonia station. I couldn't get a very good look since there is a double fence between the street and the ROW, but I was able to notice a relatively new looking concrete freight-loading platform for the box cars. I would have to assume that there is some client in that area of the NY&A.
Doug aka BMTman
Ain't new. Company reccieves paper board rolls for boxes. Gets cars two or three times a week.
Unlike Key Food a little ways down. They get cars once a month.
Hey, Transit Pro -- thanks for the info. I wasn't even sure that Key Food or any of the other distributors at Brooklyn Terminal Market still received deliveries by rail freight. Thought it was all tractor-trailer shipments.
Incidentally, I took a shot of the boxcars by Livonia from the walkway over the Bay Ridge (IRT #3 crosswalk). I'll send along a GIF when I get 'em developed. I also snapped a shot of the last remaining cantanery tower (by Junius St. in the Linden Shop part of the ROW) in that area. Doesn't that go back to the days of Pennsylvania RR ownership of the LIRR?
Doug aka BMTman
The wye track cat towers are still up at Fresh pond. The Bay Ridge was owned by the New Haven I believe, which explains the cat and not third rail on Long Island
Do you guys know there is also an existing PASSENGER station too? its at the mouth of the east ny tunnel, it even has an elevator that went up to the LIRR station above.
Huh? There is/was an elevator from the Bay Ridge platform at Atlantic Ave. to the East New York platform of the Flatbush branch? This is news to me.
I see no sign of it at the ENY station. I've got to investigate that one of these days.
Doug aka BMTman
Not surprised that you cant see it on the upper current LIRR station, since passenger service on this part of the Bay Ridge branch stopped about 1922. Maybe check the upper level for what appears to be a closed off utility closet or storage room, or for a really old concrete patch in the floor.
Why is it better to keep a internal combustion engine running instead of shutting them down? I would assume in cold weather they would have a hard time warming up? The LIRR keep their locos running 24/7.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing this?
you don't need anti-freeze for one. the big diesels run better when a constant temperature and no dead batterys
The class one's long ago recognized the benifits of shutting down. If a newer engine like a GP60-2 is left idling for more than 4 hours, it will shut itself down. A big savings is fuel. In the long term, it saves on bearings, piston rings, etc.
LIRR as a commuter operation funded wih outside revenues, cares more about immeadiate availability. The engines are left running becuse for the most part they don't sit for long. NY&A does shut it's engines down.
Then again, no one at LIRR really cares about stuff like that.
Large diesel engines such as are on locomotives can be seriously damaged by use of anti-freeze. I recently was told of an Alco S-2 that will have to be scrapped because the power assembly seals were destroyed by anti-freeze, the anti-freeze got into the base and mixed with the lube oil, the resultant mess will probably cost a good buck to get rid of. Diesels use a rust inhibiting water treatment only. To shut down a diesel engine in freezing weather is stupidity with a six-figure price tag. However, there are two devices available that allow you to safely shut down in cold weather. The LTEP (Locomotive Temperature Engine Protection) system is a small liquid cooled diesel engine which drives a water pump (in effect it runs the locomotive's cooling system. and the Kim Hotstart is an electrical heating system which circulates hot water through the cooling system
The enging blocks of the Prime movers on RR engines are usually assembled from pieces, whereas in a car they are are machined from one piece of metal. Thus, there are a lot more seals which can leak between the coolant and the lubricant. This, plus the fact that RR engines are run many many more total hours than a car engine, explain the unreliability of the seals that isolate the coolant from the lubricant.
The newest freight engines may be designed for antifreeze. (?) I think they are also designed to be shut down, and keep warm. Many, if not most, RR engines have an automatic device which dumps the coolant if it gets too close to freezing. Obviously, this device is removed if antifreeze is being used!!
Automotive engine blocks aren't machined, they're cast. After being cast, critical areas are machined.
The new GM H engines are designed for antifreeze, though i don't know if there are any in service yet.
The FL9AC engines I used to work on have an electrical heating system. It keeps the engine water hot when it's prime mover is shut down in third rail mode.
All locomotives have a drain valve for the water that opens below 40 degrees. In the winter when we would re-start an engine that had been worked on, it had to be held shut with a broom stick. Otherwise the hose would fill the radiators and then drain to the ground.
One would have to assume the DM-30 has something similar to what an FL9A has.
New Engines are desined to be shut down even in Cold and below freezeing weather but most older engines CAN NOT be shut down in Cold and more importantly Below Freezing wx for the reason stated. It is cheaper to keep them running overnight even if you crew is dead on the law.
Plus you get that much more time out of the road crew if you don't have a hostler or yard crew starting the engine.
This was all confirmed by my Enginer friend from SlamTrak (drives one of the Silvers VA to FLA).
We were wandering about the City today by car, showing a friend from North Carolina some of the sights, and drove under the #7 from Shea all the way back to about 50th. At about 12:30 or so, around 80th(?), we noted the passage of an outbound train on the express tracks, followed a few minutes later by a second train on the express tracks. Were there special runs because of the US Open and the Mets game or were these empty ferry moves? (Obviously, since we were under the el, we couldn't tell if they were carrying passengers or even what kind of equipment they were. It's possible they were work trains, although they sounded the same and took about the same amount of time to pass as outbound trains on the local track.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if the TA will do what it did in 86 and 88, when it ran extra express specials during Met home playoff games ...
The MTA implemented a new service on the 7 Line, The express now runs All day long! Inbound to Manhattan untill about 12 or 1pm, the Outbound to Queens untill rush hours is over (About 9pm)!
Trevor Logan
Even on weekends/holidays?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, but not on weekends or holidays. I've yet to get an express home from Shea, despite attending 10 games so far this season.
-Hank
I'd like to give all of you my personal opinion.
This might break the hearts of all loyal redbird fans, but I think it's time for the newer cars to come in. I believe the MTA should install some of their new R142s on the Flushing line. If not, then at least move some of the R68s that are now used on the 1, 3, 4, 6 and 9 over to the 7. The R36s and R33s are getting very old; they're almost 40 years old now!!
What are your opinions? I'm not asking IF they are coming over, but rather, SHOULD the new cars come to the 7 line?
The R-68's are B division cars. Used on the D,B and N lines. The cars you mentioned are A division R-62 cars. Used on the 1,3,4 and 6 lines. The R-68's cannot fit on the Flushing line.
I think he's mistaken the R62 with the R68. I think the MTA is planning to put them on the Flushing line anyway when the R142 order is completely delivered.
I may be wrong but I heard the R-62's can't run on the Flushung line because the guardlights get damaged when the train enters the tunnel.
Originally, yes, that was a problem. By now, it's been solved.
-Hank
As a regular passenger on the #7 Flushing Line. We need the new R142 not handme downs from the main line. The Flushing line is the pride of the IRT and the US Government has named it "An historical line". We have Shea, US Open, Hall of Science and other sites in Queens that vistors to Queens are starting to discover. The MTA should gradually replace the "Redbirds" with the R142, perhaps run a couple of test trains during rush hours to see if they can handle the line. I pray and hope the MTA doesn't shaft the Flushing riders with used merchandize.
Personally, I'd be a little wary of new subway cars being put on my line, considering the teething problems the R44,46 and 68's had. The R62 is the most reliable subway car in the entire system. Flushing would be lucky to get them.
The Flushing line, since it has no backup, is in some ways the least breakdown tolerant line in the system. At least there are express and local tracks along Queens Boulevard. So, indeed, it is not the place for new trains, which, although full of "new train smell," will have those teething problems.
Depends on what `new' is. The Flushing line has never gotten hand-me-downs from the main line since it opened. First the Steinways, followed by the R-12/14/15s followed by the R-36WFs -- all brand new when they showed up on the line.
Of course, all those trains were built on already-proven platforms and with equipment that for the most part had worked elsewhere. The R-142s are the first IRT trains since the Low Vs to have any radical changes, so there may be a few more bugs in them that in the past.
I'm all for the R142's. They mean a lot of overtime for us in car equiptment. The 7 line dispatchers are going to have to be very creative to keep to their 90 second headways.
Which is why the R142 wont be on the Flushing line when they start service. The 7 is too heavily used to be served by brand-new, potentially troublesome subway cars. I don't think a single subway car class has had an uneventfull inauguration into service since the R38.
Oh, I wouldn't say the R-38 inauguration was uneventful. They were pressed into service as soon as they were ready to go, given the alarming R-1/9 failure rate in August of 1966. Jamaica Yard had to go so far as to borrow 32 R-16s for GG service, and a group of BMT standards about to be scrapped were spared.
The R142's will seat only 34 passengers per car whereas the existing cars seat 10 more per car. That's 110 less seats per train with no increase in usable standing room. So, to h-ll with the new cars. I prefer to give my feet a rest.
Now, maybe they could save the "straps" from the R36's and place them on the R62's before the transfer. Those standee bars were a real pain on the R12, R14 and R15's for the 15 years they ran on the Flushing Line.
NO!!! I hope they stuff those straps into the R-33 singles and then MAIM THEM and destroy them (the cars included). As for Redbirds, about 100 or so of them should get a nice GOH that improves the interior and restores the exterior.
They've already shafted the the Flushing line, as well as White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue. The #7's historic designation means nothing to the MTA. Forget about the R142s ever going into service - it's never going to happen (which is why my name will be just Kwygebo from now on). You'll be lucky if the 7 gets R62As. But I don't think even that is going to happen. The MTA is one poorly operated transit authority. I'm surprised that the MetroCard is as successful as it is. But that's about it.
Let's ignore the troll instead.
When you say the MTA is poorly operated, compared to who?
You mean R-62?
Sorry folks, that's what I meant. Jose screws up again, like what I said about an LIRR DE15 before....
The heck with the 7! They'll never see a R-142 and we all know it. Be happy with the hand downs that you will receive.
those are R62 cars not R68s R68s are for the BMT and IND lines
9/29/99
Seeing an R-68 on the Flushing Line is almost like an express line at Home Depot.
Bill Newkirk
So, my parents returned today from a week's vacation thru New England, where they visited the Shoreline Museum without me. sniff!
Anyhow, their tour guide was someone who travels there every weekend from Long Island. I know that's someone here, because the story is too familiar.
So, who was it? Fess up!
-Hank :)
Ask your Parents if they saw any damaged cars from the collision a few months ago.
There was no collision as far as I know, please dont make false acusations!!!!!
I think He is talking about tha accident at Warehouse point.
This gentleman does not have his facts straight. We've gone over this already.
-Stef
I must make a correction, they went to Seashore in Kennebunkport, ME. The story's the same.
-Hank
Going to work today I got off the Robinson (Interborough) Pkway at Bushwick Av and when I entered Bushwick I noticed a NEW structure atop the "L" platforms at Bway Junction. I was too far to see it close up. It looked like it was still under construction and either a new tower or a new crossover. Anyone know what it is???
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try this color quiz!!
It's a new cross-over. I don't know if it's replacing the underpass currently used to access the Manhattan-bound L, or whether it's simply supplementing it.
I talked to a station attendant some weeks ago about the structure (which started to go up as long ago as the same time the Willy B. went out of service -- May). He said that it is a new cross-over to replace the under-the-tracks walkway currently in use. It was built for two reasons (1) it will hold larger amounts of traffic (wider) and (2) it will deter the crime problem that has been associated with the underpass (muggings having been reported in the underpass as passengers round the bend in the stairwell).
Doug aka BMTman
The one the muggers love is the crossunder down near the south end of the platform! Back on Sept.14,1997 I ventured down there and found a couple of miscreants who immediately gave me a look which made my hair on the back of my neck stand up. Out of reflex, or whatever, I said "Boo!". The older one (maybe 15) broke into a grin and he and his little friend went back up the stairs. I'm not sure if they were really up to no good or what. I made a bee line for the southbound platform stairs and crossed under at the main crossunder. Never had a problem there, although that blind corner DOES give me the creeps. Wouldn't want to be there at night.
Wayne
Went to Wyoming, county, on Friday afternoon (Aug. 29th) for my yearly Summer AAA baseball game with three friends, but it didn't look too promising, i.e. rain forcast for Fri. and Sat. AND I thought "what else is there to do in Scranton, Penn ?" That night saw the Poor Red Sox from Pawtucket, RI play the Philly's from Scranton for #1 and 2 in their division. The stadium was packet and except for a skunk delay it was an enjoyable game, yes a skunk entered the outfield.
That night we stayed in the Del. Lackawanna & Western RxR station. It's a 6 story Radison hotel that has retained much of it's original appearance ... except for the rooms themselves.
The next day, while waiting for our second baseball game, we went to Steamtown. It's in downtown Scranton. We rode #2317 the 26 miles round trip to Moscow ... yes, I was a bit confused at first too. This place is "Steatown National Historic Site", vs. "Steamtown USA" in Bellows Falls, VT. Both have lots of steam engines.
We did Cooper's for lunch ... it's a fancy sea food place, then saw Scranton play the Montreal AAA team from Ottawa.
Sunday we did the local SUBWAY (this is the on topic part). Well kind of ... there's a mine tour that includes a 1,800 foot cable car ride down to a tour of the tracks, tunnels & elect. mules that pulled the coal cars throughout this mine until the 1960s.
It was a splendid mini vacation, which even my non-rail buff friends enjoyed.
P.S. Steamtown is about to open a trolley section of their museum. Planned is a 22 mile ride to a distination other then Moscow.
Mr t__:^)
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Didnt steamtown in vermont have some problem and the equipment taken over by the parks service and moved to scranton? I thought the vermont steamtown was closed.
That was my understanding, also. As I recall from a few years back when we took the Green Mountain Railroad, a tourist line from Bellows Falls, we passed the sight of what had been Steamtown, and there was not a whole lot there. Besides, there is no other listing in the Tourist Railroad Guide for any type of Steamtown in Vermont.
Sorry about that ... I'm not a big steam fan so hadn't been keeping up with that change. I had an old brochure from the VT outfit that I looked for when I got back home as the name rang a bell with me. Too bad I never made it up there as I understand it was a big operation.
The Scranton version has three working steam engines, plus the shop tour showed that they had two more stripped down, one was theirs, one is a revenue job (actually one of the three was also in for "Inspection"). They have a good number of other engines "stuffed & mounted" on the property, one is a Big Boy. Their small steamer, think it was a 0-6-0 was doing yard work. Don't know if the moves had a real purpose or the crews were just having fun, but it was nice to see it working as it must have done for many years back & forth in the yard. Also saw this little guy come in for the night and get moved on the turn table to it's track in the round house.
Mr t__:^)
I think the issue is less complicated than it sounds. Didn't Steamtown simply move from Vermont to Pennsylvania?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Not exactly. The Steamtown Foundation moved most of the exhibits, and did a bit of culling and swapping, to Scranton from Bellows Falls back in the early '80s as part of an incentive package from the local government. The National Park Service took it over around 1986/1987 and made additional, significant changes in the collection over the next few years. They also put in place a master plan for interpreting the Lackawanna complex that is still being implemented. While they share the Steamtown name with the late Nelson Blount's complex in Bellows Falls, little more than a few locomotives and pieces of rolling stock remain from Nelson's dream. The Park Service's vision is different than Nelson's was - whether it is better, worse, or simply different is a matter of much debate and I don't want to start that here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Apparently, there's been some problem on the RR with the new Bilevel equipment. There is a "General Notice" in effect, that has crews following the same procedure that would be in effect if the door interlocks were bypassed. Specifically, crews need to key their doors open, and signal "All clear" to the conductor, and key the doors back closed before proceeding.
This morning, #507 was running about 13 minutes late, and when Nassau asked if anything was wrong, they simply said "no problems, Long Island #507 is complying with General Notice 619". Apparently that caused the 15 minute delay or so. Strangely enough, though, my train, 509, followed behind it by only 15 minutes, and didnt' seem to be delayed by this same problem (although they had to do the same thing).
Anyone know what prompted this? Was there a dragging incident, or just someone detecting a defect in the door interlock system.
I'm not sure, but I've heard in a few other forums that crews are instructing passengers to *stay away* from the the doors enroute, becaue there have been incidents of the doors self opening. I don't know if it can be believed, though I'm sure if it's true the local media will pick it up sooner or later and have a field day...
What does the door interlock do?
[ What does the door interlock do? ]
Door interlocks prevent the train from taking power unless the doors are closed. Similar in principle on LIRR MU's, the LIRR bilevels, and NYCT subway cars.
GN619 is still in effect, and causing all station stops to take an additional minute or so, as crews key themselves off and back on. The conductor also has to give a different buzzer signal to the Engineer before proceeding, long, short, short, long. Instead of just two longs. I suppose this is a confirmation that they've followed the door cut-out procedure.
As I was travelling along the Cross-Bronx Expwy, passing well under the grand concourse, I was wondering: Is the IND subway above or below the expressway. The "structure" above the expressway must be tall enough to contain the subway. On the same note, if the subway were below the expressway, it would be very deep below the street level.
If it's above the expressway, why did they keep it enclosed, as opposed to letting some fresh air and light in?
I think the Cross Bronx Expressway was built after the IND subway opened, so the construction of the expressway wouldn't have altered the structure of the IND subway. I also think that you're right - the subway is over the expressway - but I am not certain.
--Mark
[I think the Cross Bronx Expressway was built after the IND subway opened, so the construction of the expressway wouldn't have altered the structure of the IND subway. I also think that you're right - the subway is over the expressway - but I am not certain.]
The subway is over the expressway. You're also right about the relative construction dates - the subway predates the expressway by at least 15 years.
That's an interesting location. I grew up in the area. The subway is under the Concourse, but the Councourse passes above 174th Street. If you're on 174th Street you can see the protusion of the Concourse line. To enter the station: There is the conventional entrance on the Concourse in which you walk down stairs, but if you're entering from 174th street you must walk up a short flight of stairs and after paying you fare you again walk upstairs to the platform. Remember the Cross Bronx is below 174th Street - so if the subway was under the Cross Bronx it would be very deep.
Wayne
If you look fast, or are stuck in traffic on the Cross Bornx, you can see the bottom of the subway structure when you cross the Concourse. Unlike most of the bridges, this one has a boxy look to it.
You certainly don't have to look fast on the Cross Bronx-You can probably look at that bridge for about a half hour!!!
Can somebody out there tell me if I can buy a subway token at the Howard Beach subway station (near JFK) close to midnight on a week night?
Probably. There will at least be an open token booth at one enterance.
To find out, look at the globe at the station enterance. If it is red, the booth mey not be open all times.
If I know I am going to be riding at late hours in advance, I'll purchase tokens in advance. This saves me from having to go into my pocket, fiddle with change, alerting potential muggers that I have some loot.
Doug aka BMTman
You can buy a token at any subway station at any time of day except for Aqueduct Racetrack, where you can neither buy them nor use them, whether the station is open or not. And all the stations that the 5 stops alone at north of 180 Street in the Bronx which do not sell tokens nightly, but they are sold during the day and are accepted at all times. Why do you need a token anyway? They're USELESS.
There are two entrances to the Howard Beach station. One from the Airport and one from the neighborhood. Even though the two entrances are physically close together, because of the configuration of the airport perimeter and some marshland, you can't easily go from one to the other. (you'd probably have to drive a few miles to go from one entrance to the other without entering the system.)
I believe that both entrances are staffed 24/7. The entrance from the neighborhood definitely is. I have seen the token booth at the airport entrance open as late as 11PM on a Sunday night (with that entrance responsible for most of the traffic during that time), so I suspect that it too is open 24/7.
Chuck
I came through Howard Beach from the airport side at 2:30 AM late last year - I was using a MetroCard but the booth was open. There were about 15-20 of us who came off the airport shuttle bus at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can always buy a MetroCard ONLINE with free USPS 1st Class mail delivery or you can pay for UPS 2nd Day or Fedex Overnight.
I'll give you four more options:
1. U can probally get a MetroCard at a newstand at the airport
2. Buy MC on-line at WWW.metorcard.citysearch.com
3. Call Queens Surface (718-445-3100) for a $30 value card (plug plug)
4. If you just have to have a token e-mail me off line & I'll sell you new and old ones (you pay the postage).
Mr t__:^)
Do any of the newsstands at LGA's United wing sell MCs?
If Todd Glickman or another frequent flyer is reading your post they'll direct you right to a spot to buy a MC at La Guardia.
Mr t__:^)
I know that the Hudson News Stand in the USAirways terminal at LGA has Metrocards (though I don't know if there are Fun Passes there... I order mine by mail!).
Thanks Todd, I thought it was at US Air, but didn't want to miss-speak
Mr t__:^)
I heard something on WINS News this morning about a city cop who somehow got on a train at Canal Street, then suffered some kind of "blackout". He awakes to find himself in a subway tunnel (location not given). He radios for help, but no backup arrives -- so to get attention supposedly fires 15 rounds into the tunnel damaging signaling equipment, etc.
I heard most lower Manhattan trains had delays do to this truly BIZARRE occurance.
Has anyone heard further details about this?
Doug aka BMTman
There's an Associated Press story thqat just ran on this. It said he last remembered being with some co-workers at Canal St. (doesn't say which line) and the next thing he remembers is waking up in the subway tunnel with his ankle broken in two places then shoots out the signal light to attract a rescuer.
I'm guessing this had to happen on the BMT at Canal Street, since any other line there is busy enough that an unconcious cop wouldn't survive long lying in the tunnel.
According to what I heard, the incident took place on the IRT near Houston Street. The off-duty cop was on the catwalk when he came to (so why didn't any train operators see him? Inquiring minds want to know.)
I'd say there's a lot more to this story that what's been given already.
Apparently, a T/O spotted him after he came up on a signal that was (shot) out. I'm at a loss to understand how he got there in the first place, why he felt the need to empty his gun all over the tunnel - what I read on NY1's site was that he was trying to get help?
I kept reading the story, but, something doesn't really add up here.
I know the man was in distress, but emptying your gun into a train signal is just plain crazy. Who knows how many riccochets could have actually killed someone.
And this "waking up on the subway tracks without knowing how I got here" story just doesn't jive. Wasn't there a story a couple of years back about an unused storage shed near Canal St that was being used by hookers turning tricks? Makes you wonder ...
Maybe the signal had a hammer in its hands.......
Hats off to Lou from Middletown. That was really funny, in a painful sort of way.
We don't know that he discharged his guns all over the tunnel. He claims he shot out a signal to get attention.
Who knows where (or in whom) the other dozen or so bullets are.
We shall hear much more of this, I think.
This entire episode sounds like a great murder mystery -- if it turns out to be something interesting. It could be something lousy and mundane, however -- cop gets drunk with friends, argument, falls or is pushed off the platform, fires a bunch of shots, sobers up and concocts story. This story is no stranger than the cop who has a violent argument and shoots his son.
Sounds like they need to raise recruiting standards a little at the NYPD. Unfortunately, I understand they are having trouble filling out bodies, lousy job that it is.
Well, we can guess that this cop was doing something he shouldn't have been doing -- hence his suspension WITHOUT pay. Usually, if there was nothing suspicious about his story he'd been suspended with pay.
I just wonder what the heck this guy was smoking -- Emptying TWO guns into a subway signal....
The Daily News said the found himself on the tracks with a broken ankle (two places, went to surgery Tue nite). Crawled to the catwalk, use his shirt to cover a singal but no T/O stopped. He then fired his clip into a signal disableing it and a T/O stopped. The whole line was shut down for 4 or so hours.
He was off duty out with coworkers and does not know how he ended up on the tracks.
IF he covered a signal with his shirt, why wasn't it reported?
One gun, a 9mm. 15 rounds would be normal.
One of the stories made reference to "both guns."
On Army .45s, SOP was to not fill the cartridges full to avoid jamming. I don't know what NYPD practice was.
I imagine the "second gun" they refer to was his "throw away" to be used when he kills an un armed civilian.
It happened on the West Side IRT. At Canal Street. He emptied his gun to get attention......
3TM
42St-Times Sq/PABT. Transfer available to the A,C,E,N,R,S,1,7,9. The M6, M7, M10, M16, M27, M42, and M104 upper level. Connection to the PABT. This is a 148 Bound 3 making express stops to 96. The next express stop will be 72. Step in, step on, step off, step out, stand clear of the closing doors please.........
The officer was suspended without pay, he fired 21 rounds, 15 from his duty 9mm and 6 from a "backup" .38. Service was halted for 4 hours. Short follow story in today's Daily News. The union is trying to get him reinstated or at least suspension with pay.
Theres something the cops not telling us. Like how did he end up in the tunnel. How far was he in the tunnel and how was his ankle broken?
What caused him to blackout and for how long?
If he was sleepwalking why didn't anyone see him?
Is Steve son-in-law a cop? What does he think of this?
Has anyone ever been in the tunnel under those apartment buildings in the Bronx where the Polo Ground Shuttle (155th Street Shuttle) ran until 1958? There must be a way to enter the tunnel and photograph it. Who owns the tunnel? Maybe the City of New York or the Apartment building owner? Maybe they can be approached to get access?
Sounds like an excellent Subtalk Fan Trip.
ANY IDEAS.
The tunnel and station belong to the TA, atleast they did 15 years ago. The entrance through the apartment building was closed back in the 50's. The best way to get inside, is go around the station end, and scale the rock outcroppings next to the bronze door that says "IRT". This takes you up to the island platform. But once you get there, you'll find people living in it- atleast we did! As I recall, it has 2 tracks, but the sigs were ripped out.
I believe the door you speak of is at street level and says IRT with the letters vertically. There were two tracks there and I'm not surprised to hear the signals were removed.
Are the tracks still there?
I do recall seeing the tracks inside the tunnel. The rails outside the tunnel were gone, but the ties were still there, and some 3rd rail insulators. Keep in mind, this tunnel only dates from 1917. Yes, the IRT door is at, right in back of Yankee stadium. I imagine that an enterprising rail historian may have the correct key...
This door I assume was for the Jerome-Anderson Avenues Station? Think about this, Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson Avenues Stations where extremely close together.
Yes, they were close, but they were seperated by a very large rock cliff, which presents a real barrier to people wanting to transfer to the putnam division of the NYC, which is what the station on the riverfront side (Sedgewick Av) was mostly for. People going to the "Bronx" or Yankee stadium would use Jerome Anderson. The tunnel is only about 1,200 feet long.
Recently I went and took some pictures of the steelwork that is left from it, and I tried to find the tunnel. But I could not find any good
way to get close to the tunnel or even to get a good angle to take some pictures.
Mr. Pirmann, I will dig out some photographs I took in the 1980's of the shuttle I could see at the time. You could post them.
Mr. Pirmann, how about a Subtalk Fan Trip to the abandoned tunnel of the 155th Street Shuttle under those apartment building? This mystery has eluded rail fans for decades to see the remains of the shuttle.
Sounds great to me if someone can manage to gain access. You want to coordinate it or are you asking for someone to do it?
I'm not in the northeast and my contacts are limited. Maybe someone else can take my suggestion and implement it.
9/7/99
If a trip is planned,how about during the winter? With foilage at a minimum and of course the most important reason is not encountering "tunnel dwellers" who may cause us problems. Yes,safety in numbers so
the more the merrier. If it's cold,nobody would want to call that tunnel home,only in the warm weather.
Bill Newkirk
Friend of Mike H.
I'd come back to do this, and I no longer, alas, reside in the city of NY. I'd spend five hours on a bus for the privilege of going there. Someone pick a date.
Could we do this on a Sunday?
I prefer Sundays myself.
How about Sunday Oct 17, I hear that Metro North maybe
having an open house on the 16. That would give us out-of-towners
two reasons to make it to NY that weekend.
How bout the Sunday of Columbus Day weekend? Or the Sunday after Thanksgiving? (or Vets Day?)??? May be we could also cover some of the territory that some of us have (has?) has missed; ie. the IRT Brooklyn lines past Utica..etc etc..
[ How bout the Sunday of Columbus Day weekend? Or the Sunday after
Thanksgiving? (or Vets Day?)??? ]
The sat and sun of Columbus day weekend will be "Autumn in New York" at the Shoreline Trolley Musuem. Some people won't be able to make the Polo Grounds shuttle venture, because they'll be up in Branford with the veterans that ran there!
Although, if y'all promise to come up to the Museum on Saturday, Sunday would be OK for the trip :)
Pardon my ignorance but just where are we talking about ?
Is it on the IND above the 145th split ?
I don't see any thing in Peter Dougherty's track plan book that would give me a clue that anything else was their.
Mr t__:^)
Nope - this is the last part of the 9th Ave EL that became the Polo Grounds Shuttle, running between 155th St / 8th Ave, Manhattan and 167th St / Jerome Ave, the Bronx until (if memory is right) 1958. There's a section of the line that ran underground and has part of the defunct Sedgwick Ave station in it. The tunnel is there but it has been "sealed off".
And that leads to a question. The portions of the 2nd Ave Line that were built are "sealed off" but are inspected every 2 weeks or so. Since this portion of the Polo Grounds shuttle runs under an apartment building, and the tunnel wasn't filled in (just sealed at the ends), is this area also inspected periodically?
I'd agree that a trip should be made in late fall when all the vegetation has gone to sleep for the winter.
--Mark
Question!!!
You can see the turnoff to nowhere from the el on River Av north of Steinbrenner Yankee Stadium and almost every transit history book has a picture of the Polo Grounds station where the shuttle ended. Both sides were els. So where was the tunnel? In the Middle?? And since the 2 stadiums were very close to each other over the bridge the shuttle couldn't have been very long. Right? When I was a 'lil kid my dad took us to a Mets game at the Polo Grounds (b4 Shea) and I remember we parked in a Yankee Sta lot and walked across the bridge. I guess the 2 parks shared parking facilities.
You can see the turnoff to nowhere from the el on River Av north of Yankee Stadium and almost every transit history book has a picture of the Polo Grounds station where the shuttle ended. Both sides were els.
So where was the tunnel? In the Middle??
Yes. Think of it as the opposite of what you currently see at 125th St / Broadway on the #1 line. The line was elevated, but because of the ridge roughly between Sedgwick and Andersen Avenues, the line went from El to tunnel. The tunnel portal nearest the Harlem River starts from the Major Deegan Expressway, and is under the expressway I believe. I'm not 100% certain where the other portal is. There's a set of apartment buildings right over the tracks at that point.
And since the 2 stadiums were very close to each other over the
bridge the shuttle couldn't have been very long. Right?
Right. The section from 155th St / 8th Ave to the connection with the Jerome Ave line couldn't be more than 3/4 of a mile. The tunnel section itself is about 1,200 feet.
--Mark
There are also some buildings along Jerome Ave. (a tire shop is the closest, I think) just below where the tunnel portal is, leading to the odd situation of a tunnel entrance being on a building's roof.
As for the line running under the Deegan: I just don't believe it. The Deegan is not on the ridge, but in the "valley" below it, right along the Harlem River. Since everyone agrees the river was crossed by bridge, not tunnel, the Deegan must also have been crossed by bridge (overpass). There is no room vertically for a line to run under the Deegan and over the Harlem River.
the portal at the Deegan side is located right near a pedestrian overpass of the Deegan. The line did cross the river on a swing bridge, dating back to the late 1880's, this was removed around 1955 or so. There's a picture of it in Arcara's book.
9/12/99
With all the talk of arranging a date for a walking tour of this tunnel,let's all bear in mind the following. The summer is over and before the winter comes there are lots of weekend activities such as fan trips,trolley meets and what have you. If we agree on a date,let's make sure there isn't a fantrip on the same day. After all there is a LIRR fantrip,the repainted FL-9 Peekskill runs and Harmon Shop open house to name a few. So let's check our calendars,set a date and get together for some exploring and picture taking.
Bill Newkirk
Dan; I've been there and the portals are under the Deegan. Consider that the NY & Northern trackage had to rise to a higher elevation in order to pass over the tracks of the NYC & HRRR. The NY & Northern built the bridge over the river in order to connect with the Ninth Av trains at 155 St. The el did not start using the Putnam Bridge until many years later. When they did the el was at grade level with the NY & Northern(by then Putnam Division) but above the Hudson Line tracks. The el tracks were still lower than the streetgrade through and passengers has to walk upstairs to exit. The Deegan was arelative newcomer to the area and since it couldn't go under it had to pass over the el tracks. Its easy to see this today as the Deegan is on the top most level,then the abandoned Putnam ROW a level below then the MNRR Hudson Line tracks at river level.
Larry,RedbirdR33
OK, I guess you know what you are talking about, it just seems hard to picture. The bridge must have been very close to the water, and must have had to open even for fairly small boats.
9/12/99
As per my earlier post on setting a date for a walking tour of the Polo grounds shuttle. Looking at my calendar:
Sept.18 & 19 Trans rail expo - CNJ terminal Liberty St Pk
Sept.25 LIRR/ERA Farewell to push pull diesel trip
Oct.2 Hudson-Bergen Grand Opening (reported,
not yet confirmed)
Oct.2 & 3 New York days at Shoreline Museum (Branford)
Oct.2 & 3 Repainted FL-9 runs to Peekskill
? ? ? ? ? Metro North Harmon shop open house
This is what I mean about too many events and not enough weekends. Can anybody add any activities I didn't touch base on. The weekend that there is nothing going on,that's when we have the walking tour.
Fare enough!
Bill Newkirk
Autumn in NY at Shore Line is 9-10 October, according to their website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lets do it!!!!!
Its surprising that considering the historical signifigance of the 9 Avenue area on the West End Line there is so little in print about it.
The West End trains use the 38 Street Tunnel to reach the 4 Avenue Line. This tunnel predates the subway connection and was built to allow trains to reach the Brooklyn waterfront .
The additional tunnel bellmouths south of the tunnel probably dates to the time of the Dual Contracts. There is a picture of the west end of the tunnel in Paul Matus's Rapid Transit Booklet No 3.The tunnel itself has two tracks, next is a one track bellmouth and then a two track bellmouth. I would speculate that the one track bellmouth was a provision for running all three tracks of the combined Culver and West End Lines to the junction with the 4 Avenue Subway,which of course did not occur. The two track bellmouths were probably intended to be a new two track tunnel for the SBK which also was not built.
Larry
I was told that the "bellmouths' were actually only late victorian era architectural details to take up otherwise blank wall space.
You guys should check out the partially built tunnel to Staten Island.
The entrance is right on shore parkway- but watch that 115 ft drop to the station.
Bob, could you offer some better directions?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NO NO NO NO,
The tunnel to Staten Island can be seen just leaving Whitehall St./South Ferry. There are two pockets you can see just as the train picks up speed on the downhill!!!
(LOL, I just had to meantion it for the 1,124,132 time)
I thought the start of tunnel pockets for a proposed Staten Island RR connection was in Bay Ridge and can be seen from the Belt Parkway near the Verrazano Bridge?
Please confirm, thanks.
Doug aka BMTman
The tunnel pockets in Manhattan were for a second tunnel to allow capacity for more Nassau loop service. The tunnel to S.I. was started (and filled in) in Owl's Head Park, where the Belt Parkway meets the waterfront for the first time.
You'll notice that where 4th Avenue crosses the Bay Ridge freight line, the walls of the 'R' tunnel open up to expose the outside very briefly. It's my understanding that was a projected connection from the 4th Avenue line to the tunnel to Staten Island.
No, that's the overpass over the Bay Ridge ROW. The connection to S.I. is in tunnel pockets somewhere near the Sea Beach split.
Wrong!!!!!!!!! There is connection to SI tunnel at that overpass.....
Q: Brigthton Express
Yes, the Q train also runs under Second Avenue in Manhattan for 60 blocks.
Where does the Q train run under Second Avenue? Brian
You should turn on your sarcasm detector. I said that no connection was ever planned on the R where it passes over the Bay Ridge Line. Q said there was, so I pointed out how she (trains are women) shouldn't be trusted.
Funny.....Real Funny DOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Q
You lose, so you resort to insults. Very credible. Remind me not to respond to your crap until you decide to grow up.
Hey, cut the flames out!
Whatever!!! Just go and take your sarcasm and critical viewpoints to another post like you always do........ Get out of my hair!!!!!!!!!
Q: Dont want any ANNOYING MVM's at my stations........
9/14/99
C'mon guys! Let's chill the heat or we'll resolve this with third rail protection boards at 10 paces !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey Q train, tone down the language please. Posting here is a privelage that can always be taken away.
Ill tone down the language but that guy need to cut his sarcastic reply to every post. It may be nice once in a while but every post this gut responded to always seems to be sarcastic and/or rude. He need to cool out as well.......
Q: Keeping my cool
The Brooklyn shaft is not filled in, although the SI side was. In Bklyn, its capped off by a 10' x 14' concrete slab located within the belt parkway perimeter near 68th st. There is a very large article in one of the local papers, ca 1964, with many construction photos, including pictures of the tunneling machine and 33' diameter cast steel liner rings being hoisted down that shaft. I have a complete set of plans, that shaft goes down about 115', and there is supposed to be a 4 track, 2 level station at the bottom. The approach lead was supposed to, or maybe does, run under senator street back to 4th Av. The tunnel was to be 4 tracks, two for electric freight, and 2 for the subway.
Even with growing up in Bay Ridge, I don't ever remember seeing a plan for the SI tunnel. Thanks much for the information.
It seems to confirm that the extra track space over the LIRR is located properly for a curve into Senator Street, either flying or at grade. The choice of Senator Street, though, seems odd--it's narrow, but then so is 69th Street (either 65th or 75th would have to have been used if they wanted to stay with wider streets). And in Manhattan, 53rd and other narrow streets have had tunnels.
What's the source of the plans and are copies available?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The plans and alot of newpaper articles can be had at the New York Public Library on 42nd St. Its listed in the card catalog as the "Narrows Tunnel" under the category of "Tunnels". There is a series of hardbound bid package plan books put out by the NYC Board Of Estimate.
The approach under Senator street was going to be tunnelled, not cut and cover. I read that land rights underground were taken away from under buildings along the route to accomodate the tubes. I think the approved route number was 121 or 123.
Its interesting to note that this tunnel was supported by the NYC Administration, was going to be paid for 60% by the Baltimore & Ohio RR, work was started in earnest, and it was killed by lawsuits and objections raised by the PORT AUTHORITY, because, as they admitted at the time, they wanted a total monopoly on all Trans- Hudson freight traffic from New York harbor through Westchester, something they have until this day, except for the handful of cars that find their
way through Cross Harbor.
Ummm, the NYC Board of Estimate was abolished by the Supreme Court in 1989.
On a standard subway track trippers will stop a train attempting to pass a red signal. I have ridden trains wrong railing and as such have a question:
when a train in revenue service (carrying passengers) Wrong rails- what keeps the train from being tripped? What am I missing here! It has to be simple!
When a train wrong rails, if there is signal protection, it's just like proceeding normally. There are signal stop arms( what you call
track trippers).Wrong railing with no signal protection the trainoperator has to operate the train at restricted speed( 10 miles an hour)
Wrong railing with no signal protection, the train operator has to keep the train at restricted speed and make sure the reverse stop arms go down so that the train does not get tripped.
Won't the stop arms of the opposite-direction signals be on the wrong side of the train and therefore have no effect?
They have an effect. Just because opposite direction signal stop arms are on the wrong side, doesn't mean they won't work for a train that's wrong railing. All road trains have trip cocks on both sides.
Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system.
subfan
[ Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work
trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B
divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its
second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a
train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system. ]
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
All trains have trip arms on both sides (except, a single unit from a married pair set might not, but it wouldn't be going anywhere on it's own), _BUT_ they don't have them on both sides at the front of the head car. Basically, there's a tripcock on the opposite side as soon as you get to an operating position in the opposite direction (i.e. the rear of the head car for single unit cars, or the rear of the second car for married pairs). In many cases, that's too far back for safety, hence the requirement to have a car with tripcocks on the correct side for operation.
But, all trains do have tripcocks on both sides, which is important to keep in mind as they will trip on any obstruction (either a stop arm or debris) in their path.
That's what I was trying to say; sorry if I wasn't clear.
subfan
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of American, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the British do.
As Mr. Webmaster, I have to ask why you posted that three times. :-)
-Dave
I made some spelling errors myself. I'm sure you have sometime in the past. SORRY!!!
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the
trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both
sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
The arm goes down before the train gets there, but not necessarily
LONG before. On many signals, a cut section is used. The retaining
circuit is a short track circuit a few car lengths beyond the
signal, then there is an IJ and a cut section, then the rest of the
block. When approaching that from the wrong direction, the arm
will only be driven clear when the short retaining circuit section
is occupied.
That's for automatics. For home balls, the logic is different.
The arm can never be driven clear by the occupancy of a track
circuit. If the signal is clear to begin with, the retaining
circuit prevents the arm from coming up under the train, but if
the signal is at stop, occupying the track circuit will not clear
the arm. That's why you can't key by a home ball (well, that and
the fact that the stop arm is located right at the IJ instead of
10 feet beyond it). Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because
home balls are supposed to protect against super-bad stuff like
running through switches or having a head-on collision with opposing
traffic.
Many interlocking plants are not fully signaled for bidirectional
flow. Marker signals are used to protect the limits of movement.
These are wrong-rail signals, usually dwarf, that are always at STOP.
Their stop arms behave like automatic signals and drive clear well
in advance of a train approaching from the normal direction.
[ Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because ]
You say you "can't" just charge and go. Other than rule, though, does anything stop you from tripping your way past the signal? (for others: tripping past means charging, going a carlength or so until you trip again, repeat).
also watch for NO KEY By signals!
When a train wrong rails, if there is signal protection, it's just like proceeding normally. There are signal stop arms( what you call
track trippers).Wrong railing with no signal protection the trainoperator has to operate the train at restricted speed( 10 miles an hour)
Wrong railing with no signal protection, the train operator has to keep the train at restricted speed and make sure the reverse stop arms go down so that the train does not get tripped.
Won't the stop arms of the opposite-direction signals be on the wrong side of the train and therefore have no effect?
They have an effect. Just because opposite direction signal stop arms are on the wrong side, doesn't mean they won't work for a train that's wrong railing. All road trains have trip cocks on both sides.
Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system.
subfan
[ Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work
trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B
divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its
second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a
train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system. ]
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
All trains have trip arms on both sides (except, a single unit from a married pair set might not, but it wouldn't be going anywhere on it's own), _BUT_ they don't have them on both sides at the front of the head car. Basically, there's a tripcock on the opposite side as soon as you get to an operating position in the opposite direction (i.e. the rear of the head car for single unit cars, or the rear of the second car for married pairs). In many cases, that's too far back for safety, hence the requirement to have a car with tripcocks on the correct side for operation.
But, all trains do have tripcocks on both sides, which is important to keep in mind as they will trip on any obstruction (either a stop arm or debris) in their path.
That's what I was trying to say; sorry if I wasn't clear.
subfan
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of American, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the British do.
As Mr. Webmaster, I have to ask why you posted that three times. :-)
-Dave
I made some spelling errors myself. I'm sure you have sometime in the past. SORRY!!!
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the
trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both
sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
The arm goes down before the train gets there, but not necessarily
LONG before. On many signals, a cut section is used. The retaining
circuit is a short track circuit a few car lengths beyond the
signal, then there is an IJ and a cut section, then the rest of the
block. When approaching that from the wrong direction, the arm
will only be driven clear when the short retaining circuit section
is occupied.
That's for automatics. For home balls, the logic is different.
The arm can never be driven clear by the occupancy of a track
circuit. If the signal is clear to begin with, the retaining
circuit prevents the arm from coming up under the train, but if
the signal is at stop, occupying the track circuit will not clear
the arm. That's why you can't key by a home ball (well, that and
the fact that the stop arm is located right at the IJ instead of
10 feet beyond it). Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because
home balls are supposed to protect against super-bad stuff like
running through switches or having a head-on collision with opposing
traffic.
Many interlocking plants are not fully signaled for bidirectional
flow. Marker signals are used to protect the limits of movement.
These are wrong-rail signals, usually dwarf, that are always at STOP.
Their stop arms behave like automatic signals and drive clear well
in advance of a train approaching from the normal direction.
[ Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because ]
You say you "can't" just charge and go. Other than rule, though, does anything stop you from tripping your way past the signal? (for others: tripping past means charging, going a carlength or so until you trip again, repeat).
also watch for NO KEY By signals!
This is really Mr. Train Control's area. An occoupied
block holds the relay dropped. Contacts open. The signal
will go to red. However as it's still occupied, the stop
arm will remain down, so as not to trip the train still in
that block. When the block is clear, the signal will clear
as the relay picks up again. What makes the stop arm go up
and stay, is the the relay logic from the next block. An occupied block has a red with the arm down. The preceding block red with the arm raised, and before that a yellow.
For example: on an un occupied track, take a piece of
metal. Bridge over an insulated rail joint with it. The
signal will go to danger, red. The stop arm remains
retained.
Now if I were to change ends on a train. The block
occupied would already have the arm immeadiately
behind(now in front) down. As I went wrong rail, or as we
say against the current of traffic, the next block I enter
will be from the un-protected end. The stop arm will be
far ahead at the other end of the block. As soon as the
wheels cross the IJ, the stop arm will go down. It's the
same for when we key a signal, going the right way. So by
the time you get to the stop arm, it will have been down a
while already. The operting rules require the train be
operated at restricted speed for the obvious reasons.
That answer you? I hope I got it all right Dave?
But it gets more complicated than that. In the simplest of automatic
signal installations, the retaining track circuit is the entire
block ahead of the trip arm, as Erik described. So, when making
a movement against the normal flow of traffic in automatic territory
that is not set up for bi (hhh) traffic flow, the stop arm one signal
ahead of you is going down as you enter the block, and you have
nothing to worry about in terms of tripping.
However, in many locations, there are cut sections in use. A
short track circuit extends a few car lengths beyond the trip
arm and that acts as the retaining circuit. If you watch a train
pass a signal, see how far beyond the signal it gets before the
stop arm goes up behind it. In these cases, you must get much
closer to the trip before it will go down.
I see you where waiting for me to answer this one. I read Jeff H.'s respond and he is right. When there is not direction control for full headway feature for both directions of travel, example is the middle track on the Flushing Line, Concourse Line and other lines the reverse moves are permitted by reversing traffic levers at the two adjacent towers. Often the amount of reverse direction signals are limited to grade time signals only. In this case, the train stops are driven clear ahead of the train by the track circuit in the advance of the opposite direction signal. In other words, when the track circuit drops before the opposite direction train stop is approached then the train stop will drive clear with it's retaining circuit. In direction traffic control areas, the opposing train stops are driven clear by the traffic relay.
Today while waiting for a uptown A at 125th, I seen a R32 on the D lines!
Boy, talk about Deja Vu All Over Again - the "D" was where the R32 made their home from late 1967 to well into the 1970s. I wonder if it was a redeployed "N" train. Maybe Steve knows if there are any up at Concourse. Was this train in revenue service? Sure it wasn't an "A" train? There have been known to be some R32s on the "A" line.
Wayne
R32s were on the "D" up until the end of 1988 when the two "D" services (courtesy of the Manhattan Bridge construction) merged into one service and all service was provided by R68s and R68As.
OH No, this was a D, the digital sign said D and those horrible mylar signs on the side had that wonderful Orange D-6th Avenue Concourse Express sign!
Trevor
You mean you were actually able to tell that it was a "D" and not an "O" or a "Q" or something? I saw a "Q" of R32s back when they were still gadding about there and I swear it said "O". The yellow pixel dots were extremely dim on #3918 that day, and the glass was abstolutely philthy, heavily encrusted with munge and grime. "C" and "G" are especially difficult to decipher on the R32 bulkhead signs. I know my routes well enough to know that "C" and "G" only meet at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, but to the uninitiated, this can be a puzzlement.
Wayne
Yeap, I seen it good and clear, the only thing that pissed me off that I couldn't grasp my camera quick enough to get the pic!!!!!
Trevor
I'll bet those side route signs said something like, "D-Concourse/6th Ave./Brighton".
Oh and speaking of the R-32s, today marks 35 years since their inaugural press run to Grand Central terminal. I remember that day in 1964, but only because it ws my first day of school in second grade. The Beatles were big, and Mary Poppins had just come out.
Has it really been 35 years?
Heck, I'm a bit shoked that its been 22 years since I rode a J train to 168 St. in Jamaica. Since I'm 27 that seems like an eon.
Chris - I sympathise. But an eon is really more like the first memory I have of a D train made up of R1 cars.
It was more than a decade away from retirement and that was in 1960. I was only 5 at the time.
When the R32s were put on the D (late 60's), a few elderly R1-R9 cars were still in service on that line. I saw them at Rush hour and admired how well they kept pace with the R32s on the express track.
Flash to the present - the R1s are gone over 20 years and the R32s will be up for replacement in (my guess) less than 5 years.
Pretty likely I'll outlive those R32s.
When you've actually outlived a well built subway car, you know you're getting older.
At this point, I've outlived everything built prior to my birth in 1955 (year of my birth) and a few more including the R16, R17, R21,R22,R27 and R30 fleets. These were all built the year of my birth or more recently and yet are all gone now.
Geez! I feel old.
Actually, the R32 fleet isn't scheduled for retirement anytime soon. I guess they'll remain in service until the start coming apart at the seams. They very well could see 50 years of service (in 2014).
[ Actually, the R32 fleet isn't scheduled for retirement anytime soon. I
guess they'll remain in service until the start coming apart at the
seams. They very well could see 50 years of service (in 2014). ]
Then what will go when the R143's come? There's what -- 212 of them on the way?
The 32's are the oldest fleet in the system. Although they have been reliable, is there a good reason to keep them over any of the newer cars? (no R68 comments here :) ).
They're not drastically better than the R40/40M/42's.
According to the NY Div. ERA Bulletin this month (the same that listed all the proposed G.O.'s for next year, as mentioned in another thread), this new shipment of cars will not be enough to replace the 1574 cars from R-32 to 42, so they want to buy 660 new cars and overhaul again 665 R-32, 40m and 42, to extend them another 12-15 years.
What I wonder is why no R-38. I thought they were in good shape, and that the 40m/42 would be the next to go along with the slant 40's.
[ overhaul again 665 R-32, 40m and 42, to extend them another 12-15
years. What I wonder is why no R-38. I thought they were in good shape, and
that the 40m/42 would be the next to go along with the slant 40's. ]
I don't ride on 38's too much, but skipping the slants in favor of the 40M/42's certainly makes sense to me. Just from what one can see from a passenger's perspective, it seems like the 40M and 42 are in better shape than the 40 slants. I guess they got a more thorough overhaul last time.
Now, to see about getting a 40 slant for Branford...
The R38's are not in that list to be overhauled because of a "structural deficiency." I have not heard specifically what it is, but they are safe cars for now, but can't last 50 years! I can tell you they leak badly when it rains and when they are washed. Check their roofs. Some have " black lines" making them look like zebras! Some roofs are all silver.
I noticed 4122-23 had some roof work done recently.It's all silver.
Nothing will be retired when the R143's start running. There is a car shortage as it is, plus more cars will be needed for the new 63rd. St. service when it opens.
I think the performance of the R32 IS drastically better than the R42, not sure about the R40.
Nothing will be retired when the R143's start running. There is a car shortage as it is, plus more cars will be needed for the new 63rd. St. service when it opens.
I think the performance of the R32 IS drastically better than the R42, not sure about the R40.
NOTHING is schedule to go when the R143s arrive. These are to be a supplement for the "B" division fleet, not a replacement.
Wayne
They will need more trains when the 63rd Sreet Extension opens.
When the 63rd st connection opens Will the Q now operate to say 179st or Jamaica center? Why will so many new subway cars be needed? isn't the Queens blvd corridor already bursting at the seams, and would it be able to accomodate the increased service?
If the Q is extended to 179 or Jamaica ctr or even Continental Avenue I see maybe the need for 40-60 new cars but the R143 will probably be going to the L line with the new signals be installed(Communication Based Train Control)...
Here we go again! No service plan has been set! With so many ideas being expressed on this thread, most people will be unhappy over whatever the service plan turns out to be! The express tracks ARE at capacity but the local tracks are not. There will be even more capacity for trains from Manhattan with the G trains no longer operating there. Yes, the R143's are scheduled for the L line. This will allow excess Eastern Division cars be shifted elsewhere. Maybe not to the Queens corridor, but the ERA reported a couple of years ago they will go to the N line, with their 75 footers reassigned.
The R32 are extremely well built and rugged cars, surely capable of giving 50 years of service, considering the substantial GOH given them in 1989. They ride better than the R40M/R42s. The R38 is on almost equal footing with the R32 as far as ride is concerned. The Slant R40 aren't quite as good as the R32s or R38s, but better than the R42. The seats on the R40 need replacing - they're awful.
Wayne
The R40 Slants are going bye bye. I dont't think they will last another 2 years. The R32's have held up very well. They are getting another overhaul. The flat seats on the slants are the worst. You slide all over the place. I'll take an R32 over the other eqipment.
9/9/99
Re:those uncomfortable seats on the R-40's,if the T.A. scraps them,chiropractors will lose business !!
Bill Newkirk
The R40 slants will definatley stay in service longer than the more mechanically troublesome R42. I'd say another decade at least, which is when the MTA will probably put in another order for new subway cars.
"The Slant R40 aren't quite as good as the R32s or R38s"
And this from Mr. Slant-40! A bit of a wandering eye, eh?
subfan
Don't get me wrong - the Slant R40 is NOT as smooth a ride as the R38 or the Phase II R32. I just happen to be quite fond of the overall appearance of the Slants. I like the interior of the R38s better too.
The Slant R40 has a "harder" feel to it than either of the above.
Plus those seats - well, I don't sit in 'em; I'm always up front looking out.
Wayne
The Slant R40 has the best railfan window.
The best railfan window of course was on the standards 'cause they opened and the wind was like being on a motorcycle.
Don't forget - the R-21s and R-22s had drop sash windows on their storm doors as well.
I agree that the slant R-40s have the best railfan window. On top of that, they're nice and quick.
Well, there are exactly TWO R21/R22 style windows still out there, both on R26 cars: #7773 and #7821, if you're lucky to catch one as the lead motor. They're usually on the #5 line, occasionally on the #2. They're out of E180th Street yard.
Wayne
Maybe we'll see one of them next month.
Yes, and we'll both probably be scratching our heads wondering what it REALLY says!
BTW STEVE - B: OCTOBER 27 1999 - Approved as a vacation day. I just found out I had 21 V-days piled up. So I took Nine of them.
Also: November 8 too, Simon Billis is on his way across the pond again. This is going to be a fine fall of Subway riding.
Wayne
9/10/99
Steve, the unique slant 40 storm door window was a godsend for the children. The R-15,16,17 porthole was a study in frustration. Count how many times in the summer they were open. And how the hell could you open them?? The R-1-9's were nice and wide,ideal for three across.
Bill Newkirk
But the R1-9's had some sort of metal mesh inside the glass.
The R-10's had this too, and I even saw it in a couple R-36's!
I believe the R-1s (and maybe the R-4s as well) had a single pane of glass in their storm doors, and no chicken wire. The R-6 series, R-7 series and R-9 all had the chicken wire, along with the split window pane. Ditto for the R10s. The D-Type Triplexes also have the chicken wire in the side door window panels. They have a single-leaf side door. I think the last cars to have the single-leaf doors were the Steinway WF Lo-V's of 1938. BTW is anyone attending to the lone survivor of this fleet, languishing in CI Yard along with R10 #3184? The salt air is tough on carbon steel.
Wayne
This chicken wire glass discussion reminds me of an incident I had on a D train I was operating in the mid '80's before the R32's underwent GOH. This was my put in out of Concourse Yard one morning. The block car (which would be my operating car toward Brighton Beach) was 3656. The storm door glass window looked strange to me and it took me a while to realize it had the chicken in between 2 panes of glass. I thought nothing of it until....I was on the express track leaving Prospect Park. When I passed under the overpass at Parkside Ave., I heard a crash. I would bring the train into Church Ave, station and investigate. Before I could, someone knocked on the cab door and told me a lady got hit in the face by flying glass. When I got into the station, I observed the young lady had little nicks all over her face. Fortunately, she told me she did not feel any glass go into her eyes. The glass blew out and was in pieces all over the floor. This was not shatterproof glass and it had no reason being in that storm door. It must have been forced in to fit. I alerted Command Center, signaled for police, one responded (at that time the cops knew what the whistle/horn code was! LOL) and fortunately one was there and took her away. I isolated the car, and when we got to Brighton Beach the RCI and well respected Motor Instructor Sambuccini got on. They both blew their gaskets! The train was ordered shopped to CIYD (another AM interval not operated!) for investigation and we all kept a piece of glass in our lockers as evidence. We figured we would hear from her again sometime when she sued the TA! We all wrote our G2
's and that was it. As it turned out, I never heard another word ever again about the incident.
T.S.S. YOU MEAN!!!!
He's a motor instrutor.
oops. motor instructor
I thought the title was T.S.S.
It is. He goes by the old title. Brian
I had the pleasure of meeting this gentleman in the late 60's when I first started exploring the system. IMHO,his knowledge and enthusiasm for the job made him one of the few who can legitimately claim the title of Motor Instructor.
I'm still grateful to him for sharing that knowledge with a snot nosed kid who liked trains but knew little about them (me).
Sam was the best motor instructor knowledge wise and the best there will ever be. He puts the overwelming majority of todays TSS's to shame. In those days, the trainmasters let their subordinates do their jobs, not looking over their shoulders constantly such as they do today.
Of course, today no more trainmasters, they are called superintendents.
Is this guy still around?
No, at that time they were known as Motor Instructors. They supervised motormen and conductors only. Because those were the jobs they knew well because they did them previously. They did not tell dipatchers, assistant dispatchers or towermen how to do their jobs such as they do today. At that time "T.S.S." was known as Times Square Stores.
Well, you're right about the R-1s and R-4s having a single large pane of glass in their storm doors, but IIRC, most of them did have chicken wire. I could be wrong, though. I'm almost positive #100 at the Transit Museum has chicken wire embedded in its storm door windows.
It's possible that replacement windows didn't have chicken wire. I rode on some R-10s which had it, and on others which didn't.
Those certainly were big windows on the R-1/9s. They extended down quite a bit, although not as much as the slant R-40 railfan windows.
This technically wasn't a railfan window but remember when the LIRR had no locomotive in the rear and you could stand in the rear out in the open?
9/10/99
Jeff,I agree with you about the BMT Standard drop sash window. What about the D-types bigger window. I do rememberwind rushing by,smell of creosote from track ties on warm summer days and let's not forget when the motorman would blow the whistle to warn track crews. Now that's an ear blasting experience !!
Bill Newkirk
You're right, those flat seats are the main reason I HATE the R40. R42 type seats would be a major improvement.
The R40 (slant and modified) seatbottoms and R42 seatbottoms are interchangable. Look closely at the ENY cars. Sometimes you will find "the wrong" seatbottom.
The last time I rode out to 168th St. was on a QJ, 30 years ago.
Actually, I just realized that yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the closing of the outer three stations of the J line. Boy, I wish I had a time machine so I could go back to that time and show what the el closing would do to that neighborhood.
Actually, I just realized that yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the closing of the outer three stations of the J line. Boy, I
wish I had a time machine so I could go back to that time and show what the el closing would do to that neighborhood.]
Closing the end of the J wouldn't have been so bad for the neighborhood *if* the Archer Avenue line had been ready to take its place. But closing it years before Archer Avenue opened was downright boneheaded.
IIRC, a few major retailers pressured the TA to close the outer end of that line prematurely. After that happened, those retailers went out of business. Guess we know who got the last laugh there, don't we?
When it was closed down did those retailers sing the Christmas song, "Noel, Noel"??
{{{ BASH!!! }}} Double Rim Shot!
Wayne
More like "No Customers, No Customers" ...
Maybe it was "Thanks for the Memories." Or "Easy Come, Easy Go."
On the same topic, there is a photo in the 1956 Americana Annual under New York City of a woman holding a placard which says "Happy No El", with the remaining support columns of the dismantled 3rd Ave. el visible. Supposedly, the photo was taken in November of 1955.
There are people that sell photographs from that era on the J line. Some are members of the Electric Railroaders Association, if you're interested.
Yep, I remember it well. The D, along with the AA and B lines, received R-32s when the Chrystie St. connection opened. They demonstrated their jackrabbit quickness on the CPW stretch. I remember watching one of those trains whiz past 81st St., and those R-32s sure made it look easy. I also remember the way they would glide into a station, compared to the way the R-1/9s would lumber in with their associated AMUE snarls and hisses.
No, there's nothing weird about R-32s on the D. In fact, I'd welcome such a thing. I'll leave it at that.
The D was supposed to get them back this year, along with 42's, (because of the cupling of the 68's), but I don't know what happened with this.
I have another weird one: yesterday I waited for a C train. The train was made up of R32 cars--The front sign showed J !! (Sorry--did not get car number)
Sounds like somebody was funning there! Or perhaps they left their good glasses home, and took a perfunctory look at the sign, deciding it looked enough like "C". Those signs can display any letter A thru Z (including I, O etc.) as well as 0 through 9. Control's via a dial somewhere in the cab I believe.
Wayne
I have seen this control panel from a crack in the door and whent he T/O had the door open. It is a keypad (like the bus destination key pads).
The Newark City Subway re-opened this morning. A friend who is an operator there says that they are using the pantographs. I am going there on Friday afternoon. I'll post my findings. The line is still closed on weekends.......Mark W.
It was free on Tuesday.
They are now using the pantographs, although the trolley poles are still mounted (they were not removed).
The trolley poles will NOT be removed. NJT has advised me that they will use the trolley poles to move disabled cars. They will not be able to switch over on the fly.
And if they sell some of the fleet off, I'm sure whom ever buys it would want or might need the poles.
They are now using the pantographs, although the trolley poles are still mounted (they were not removed).
The trolley poles will NOT be removed. NJT has advised me that they will use the trolley poles to move disabled cars. They will not be able to switch over on the fly.
And if they sell some of the fleet off, I'm sure whom ever buys it would want or might need the poles.
What is the physical difference between "trolley wire" and wire that needs a pantograph to make contact - that is, between the old and new wire on the Newark City Subway?
9/9/99
One major reason , correct me if I'm wrong , is that catenary wire must be tight so sliding pantograph won't cause wire to rise. Trolley poles don't have the same tension as pantographs.
Bill Newkirk
[ One major reason , correct me if I'm wrong , is that catenary wire
must be tight so sliding pantograph won't cause wire to rise. Trolley
poles don't have the same tension as pantographs. ]
I think that's true (don't know for sure), but there are other obvious differences as well:
(1) clearance -- there needs to be no obstructions within X distance from the centerline of the track other than the wire.
(2) Turnouts -- while you don't need the same type of frogs, you need to be somewhat more careful about clearances, so the pans don't catch the wires from the diverging route (?)
But pantograph catenary also has lots of neat things that you can do that you can't do with a trolley wire -- because you don't need a continuous wire to follow. I.e. section breaks can have physical separation of wire, instead of having to use insulators (you have overlapping segments of wire, one comes down lower, and the pan stays on the lowest one).
I'm pretty sure that it is possible to construct an overhead system compatible with both pantograph and trolley pole operation. I would imagine that at least one museum operation does this. Certainly it has got to be simpler than having dual-guage track! (That's very messy!).
Catenary zig-zags, trolley wire typically runs straight. For the catenary, this is the way of evening out the wear on the pans (rather than having the wire wear a groove, which could eventually catch and cause problems). Trolley wire has frogs and may have operating switches in the wire as well (not often, but it has been done), catenary doesn't require this.
I'm not 100% familiar with catenary operation, but I've not seen section breaks as described above; rather, I've seen a dead section of catenary at the same level as the regular catenary. Depending on the RR amd the length of the train being operated, this section may be quite long - there's a stretch on the NJCL that must be at least 1000'.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I'm pretty sure that it is possible to construct an overhead system compatible with both pantograph and trolley pole operation. I would imagine that at least one museum operation does this. Certainly it has got to be simpler than having dual-guage track! (That's very messy!)."
I believe that both Western Ry Museum and Orange Empire both run pans and poles on the same system. However, in Cleveland, the CTS Rapid (Pans) shared track and wire with the Shaker Rapid (PCC's and poles)on the line east of the Terminal Tower to East 55th Street. This existed from 1955 to the 1980's, when the RTA replaced the PCC's with new LRV's - using pans.
In regards to dual-guage track, see Orange Empire: L.A. Streetcars and Pacific Electric Interurbans share the same R/OW - Just like once upon a time in L.A
9/7/99
I was just reading the NY Division ERA Sept. bulletin tonight when I read on page #7 a list of all stations with MVM's and when they entered service. At the bottom starting on 8?26/99 was all 5 station on the #5 Dyre Ave line except E.180th St. Now this line has an interesting history of closing down token booths after hours and collecting fares on board the train. The old days they used a bus farebox attached to a pole! NOW,along comes Metrocard. With the new high wheel turnstiles now Metrocard compliant,on board fare collection is now defunct. But wait a minute! All these stations have one MVM each and with the token booth now closed down and riders now buying single ride Netrocards,etc. , won't this be an invitation for vandalism ? I can imagine those monitor glasses being scratched ot smashed with a sledgehammer. Are these areas being monitored by CCTV ?
I haven't been on this line in over a year so maybe somebody knows something ?
Bill Newkirk
Since I run the MVM website Can you send me the data in the article?
I am sad to report that the glass screen on the new MVM at the Pelham Parkway station (Dyre line) is already scratched. Also, space is very tight here. One person standing at the machine blocks 2 of the 4 doors to the station. 2 people each at the MVM and token booth would totally block easy access to the station. I won't even mention the 2 pay phone also squeezed in.
The lack of space is the reason MVMs will NOT be at all stations. The J line stations from Alabama Ave to the S Curve all have a narrow island platform and a mezzanine at platform level with only TWO turnstiles at most and three at some- and the wheels plus access gate take up the entire width of the mezzanine. The booth is along the Geographic North weall running geographic East and West and it is a small booth! that barely fits! I doubt we'll see MVMs on that section.
To our critics: we are not going away! ATMs did not replace human tellers at the bank- the human lines are still as long as they were before ATMS. Not all customers use MetroCards- many senior citizens still buy 20-50 tokens at one time. I can not print the comments some have made when they tried a MetroCard ( Dave would censor the message [rightfully!]as obscene or inappropriate.)
Oh yes- the MVMs do have an alarm in them if someone tries to break in. I have heard the alarm, going off at training school when the instructor opened the machine and did not do something in sequence.(I do not know what so please do not ask)
**disclaimer: opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT.
[Not all customers use MetroCards many senior citizens still buy 20-50 tokens at one time.]
At this Depot many of them still get a free ride when they buy a subway ride, i.e. I get a lot of "tickets" (the long white piece of paper). I also still get "blocks", the long pink ones ... still don't understand why the TA has switched to some kind of single ride ticket when the subway goes down & folks have to take a bus ... hum there is a "Single Ride Ticket" that comes out of the MVM, why don't they use it for a block ???? Good for one ride, has to be used in 2 hours, hum
Mr t__:^)
Block tickets are to be issued when there is an UNPLANNED disruption of train service at your location in BOTH directions. The pink stripe ticket is for Senior Citizens showing a medicare card, Reduced fare MetroCard, NY STate office of aging ID when they pay a full fare for a free return trip. The green stripe is for customers with a disability-here again we need medicare card or Reduced Fare MetroCard as ID. A G.O.ticket looks like a traditional bus transfer-colors change every three months-One color used by subway and another by bus. They are issued for PLANNED disruptions ie: no 6 train from Hunts Point to Parkchester.
Block tickets have to be called in to the field office when open and a supervisor has to come to the booth and reseal the tickets. They asre good for the day of the disruption and two subsequent days only. If issued on 9/1 then they are good for 9/1,9/2, and 9/3 at any bus line or subway station. The disabled/senior citizen are good for three months plus the day of issue . The tickets are good on NYCT, MaBSTOA and the private lines such as Queens Surface.
If there is a dispute the customer should pay the fare and report the facts to Jay Street.
I hope this clears up the issue!
Hey Jeff i see the MVM at Pelham Parkway station but what is wrong which those idiot scratched the MVM. I don't understand why they putting MVM on Station? Because i don't trust MVM & MTA is trying to get rid of Station Agents for saving $$$$$$ & could be more troblem in the future.
Peace Out
Meaney
By the way People who work at MTA Headquarter are freaking greedy for $$$$$$$$$.
Peace Out
Meaney
I've said this before. MVMs are not to eliminate station agents, they are to augment them. Perhaps in the future we'll have a D.C. Metro style operation at many stations (those that will have MVMs).
Eugenius is right- we will not go away. AT MVM training they told us that our job will change but we WILL continue to sell tokens and cards. SOme of us may be out of the booth rendering assistance, inspecting stations,etc but the MAIN station agent will still be in the booth.
Look at ATMs--banks still have human tellers and the humans have lines!we will not go away--stop dreaming! we'll be here-even in your nightmares:-)
9/9/99
Just so there is no misunderstanding on my original post,the PAST practice on Dyre was close token booths after hours and collect fares on board trains. Now with MVM's I was curious if this practice would change. It seems by the response on SubTalk,it will !
Bill Newkirk
Dyre is a special case. That wont change. What will change is our duties at stations where a booth *is* open 24 hours.
weren't MVM's just to be installed in HIGH volume stations?
Like it works anyway. When I was at Grand Central shortly after north access opened there, I was at the main mezzanine where there are 6 MVMs in addition to one full serve booth and one "mini serve" ($6/15 cards only). There was a HUGE line at the booth. That, in itself is not only not surprising, but expected. But, HARDLY A SINGLE MVM was being utilized! There were only 1-2 people using them at once. I can't understand how people are so fearful of the new technology that they would waste time waiting in line to buy stuff from the agent. What kind of incentive are we going to offer to MVM users? Before the transfers, nary a single person would use the machine. Then it exploded to almost half and I'm sure that anybody who rides around more than once in a while switched to the card when the free rides came along. I always thought they should have had Metrocard only turnstiles back in 1994 like the E-Z Pass only lanes if they wanted to get more customers on it right away.
It was the same way with the TVMs (Token Vending Machines). They'd stand there with nobody using them, while the token booth line was 15 people long.
David
[Like it works anyway. When I was at Grand Central shortly after north access opened there, I was at the main mezzanine where there are 6 MVMs in addition to one full serve booth and one "mini serve" ($6/15 cards only). There was a HUGE line at the booth. That, in itself is not only not surprising, but expected. But, HARDLY A SINGLE MVM was being utilized! There were only 1-2 people using them at once. I can't understand how people are so fearful of the new technology that they would waste time waiting in line to buy stuff from the agent.]
now will someone explain the logic of a MVM on the Dyre stations at night with the current turnstile arrangement. is anyone paying their fare or even using the MVMs during the hours that an Sta Agent or police officer is not present? will High Entry/Exit turnstiles be installed to reduce fare evasion? will agent operated gates be controlled remotely to allow riders with carriages or other parcels entry/exit from the system.
another question if there is a block in service while an agent is not on duty how do these riders get reimbursed(block ticket) will MVMs dispense something?
9/10/99
GOOD POINTS !!
Bill Newkirk
There are no "high wheel" turnstiles at any of the Dyre Ave. line stations. Just regular Metrocard turnstiles. Yes, they close the token booths at night and the MVMs are there as a substitute. On-board fare collection ended several years ago, a month or two before "Metrocard Gold" was introduced. For the last couple of years there were token machines in these stations, they have now been replaced with the MVMs. I don't think there are any closed circuit cameras - if there are, they are well hidden. The stations are patrolled by police who come and go throughout the night. I believe either one or two squad cars are assigned to cover the 5 stations.
personally I can't wait till those machines get busted up by people thinking they'll hit a jack pot... hell they're already being vandalized with scratchitti hey wait till someone throws a chain around one and ties the other to a truck and yanks the damn thing from the floor! of course this'll be done before closed circuit cameras get installed..
ahh yess the stupidity of it all...
What's so "stupid" about having fare vending machines that you "can't wait till those machines get busted up,"? Chicago put them in, and now the station agents can (indeed have to) get out of their booths and assist the passengers, which makes me feel a little more comfortable waiting for my train (not that I was ever UNcomfortable). "Customer assistant" is their new title, but it is also an apt description of their new job. And millions of dollars that were lost to errors and downright embezzlement (by a handful of station agents) is now being accurately accounted for by the Transit Card machines.
Other than the fact that they are "newfangled" and "inauthentic" because they didn't exist when the system opened during the Teddy Roosevelt presidency or when someone first rode the subway when they were ten years old, what is the visceral hatred SOME (by no means all) people on this board have for Metrocard Vending Machines?!? Tokens and turnstiles didn't exist when the system opened in 1904 either. Time marches on, and all of that.
I am a Station Agent. Many of the people who buy tokens are senior citizens, immigrants, the technophobes, people with disabilities.
The token was introduced when the fare went to 15 cents. The IRT went to turnstiles because it was being cheated by IRT employees!
I see a problem if the token disappears: with tokens, if all turnstiles are out of order we use a black box near the turnstiles or even hand collect(with a cop nearby!) What can be done with MetroCard--we have no battery operated readers! No Laptops! we'd have to let them ride free or close down and then we'd need tons of cops to keep them from jumping anyway!
There is no excuse for people not to use Metrocards, except for infrequent riding old and crippled (gasp! I hope the PC police don't get wind of this!) patrons who could not be bother to go through all the crap of ordering a reduced fare MC (if they don't need one, they shouldn't). There is nothing more difficult to the immigrant or the technophobe to sliding a card as opposed to dropping a token. The machines could be a different story and perhaps I can't relate because I have no idea what it's like not to understand pressing buttons that have stuff written on them telling you what to do... In four languages! Tokens can be used for single rides, unlike those idiotic cards that bear that name, they don't expire in two hours. I also use the token periodically because I can't be expected to adequately produce $1.50 in change until the U.S. Mint gets it's act together and lowers production of the $1 bill in favor of the new Sacagawea coin. I use this for the express bus where I get a discount for my student card, which stupidly, does not hold money for that very purpose. What about the half-fare students and their suffering to always pay $.75 in coins for the bus? Since I've gotten into card refill reform, there is no reason that unlimited ride cards can't be renewed, or placed on a pay per ride card, or become a pay per ride card on expiration, or even hold two sets of unlimited rides.
As for the lack or MC reading capability, what would you do nowadays? Personally, I would REFUSE to be forced to pay an additional $1.50 and use a token. Do it like on the bus, free rides. If the fare collection fails, that's not the riders' fault.
now ? we ask for the tokens!
Oh the first MVM has been attackesd--Bowling Green IRT-- a guy with a crowbar tried to break in. I do not know what shape the machine is in at this time
Also there is a reliabilty problem--the technophobes and techno-challenged bend the cards and wonder why they dont work! I have watched many people bend the card and scream at me when the thing does not work and it is too bent for me to even attempt to dip the card in my computer! WHen I tell them send it to Jay Street I get unrepeatables! or they start kicking the booth or body slamming the booth (the booth does not get harmed!) until they tire and leave- again cussing up a storm!
Also the Straphanger's campaign refused to let the token die!
I don't trust MVM beacause what happen if i don't get my metrocard back?? or MVM take my money & i get nothing on my metrocard. It could be more problem if MTA buy more MVMs & more complaint about the MVMs.
Peace Out
Meaney
Really STOOPID(purposefully mispelled) shouldn't use metrocard nor the vending machines AND then they have the nerve to have a titty attack on the Agent at the booth its beyond comprehension(check the spelling pleeze)
A crowbar, huh? He at least could have used a BOWLING ball in his misguided attempt to get his hands on some GREEN!
LEAVE THE JOKES TO THE PROFESSIONALS PLEASE !!
Bill Newkirked
Now what if somebody was transferring to or from a bus? I can't wait for the old Tokenosaurus to become extinct, how does the Straphangers (another item I hope becomes extinct) Cam-pain intend to implement their kooky system of differnt fares for different lines with the Tokenosaurus?
Now, when will the MTA have Smart Cards (is it a proper or common noun?)? Will it be called MetroCard Platinum or something?
9/12/99
MVM Express,
On the MVM machine,located above the money slots there appears to be a chrome convex disc. Is this camera behind a two way mirror to thwart vandals and customers being robbed,similar to ATM machines ??
Bill Newkirk
Maybe it's a cover for a smart card reader port. Since the MVMs must be very expensive, maybe they're preparing for some equipment upgrade. The MC Platinum (that's what I call the smart cards they'll have) ports on the turnstiles can go where the token slot is.
The MetroCards in the machines are ZERO VALUE until actually issued. I haver seen NJT's TVMs open (from a distance) (with two armed transit police officers standing guard!)- The money vault is in a locked vault inside the locked machine and what NJT (and PATH) does is pull out the vault and replace it with another vault.
Even *assuming* the culprit actually got the machine open, he'd still be faced with the alarm going off, the computer screen in the booth would alert the station agent. and find the locked vault!
The bottom of the computer screen in the booth gives the station agents messages such as "Turnstile 001 door open), Token Jam, Shutter Jam, etc. The computer also gives a loud beep at the same time.
I have worked one station with MVMs -59th IND and the computer was constantly beeping messages and the techinician was woking ont he machien the entire shift! Unless the machines has improved, I still think they wont work-- too cumbersome. Remember the first generation of ATMs- they gave out packages of money--two tens and a five! you could get up to four packages- and the rotating message window an oh yes- no ATM networks- your financial institution ONLY! (or another instituion paying the first to use their machines)
The "SmartCard" is alive and well in Washington DC & Chicago.
BTW, it's the same company that make our turnstile/farebox.
Mr t__:^)
Oh, what's going to happen if you're out side the booth when this guy/gail starts ....
I'm not sure how the crime is in Chicago subways but here in New York City its a totally different matter don't trust what the news tells yoou about how low the crime has gotten on the surface or underground.
When the TA announced the WillyB reconstruction project last spring, one thing I remembered them saying was "higher speeds will be possible." I say: NOT!! I have seen in writing at Jamaica Center J line dispatchers office in a notice to the train operators that wheel detection equipment has been installed on the bridge tracks with a twist: if a train is going faster than the posted speed, the train will not trip, but an alarm will sound in Essex St. tower. It is the job of the dispatcher (or tower operator in his absence) to notify Control Center that a train is "speeding". Quite frankly, it is all redundant. Upgrade you need all the power you can muster to climb the grade and downgrade you have the grade timers to restrict the speed. I am trying to understand the thinking behind this, but I can't. Overkill? If it says 15 MPH, then the train operator will go 10 in order to protect himself if the timing mechanism is calibrated wrong. If there is a malfunction, surely the train operator will be guilty of speeding till proven innocent by an electrical malfunction/investigation. But then again, I'm just an hourly employee..........
I will be taking our great subway system from the Port Authority bus terminal at 42nd St. to 70 Pine St., Manhattan in a few days, after the rush hour in mid morning. I wonder if anyone can suggest the fastest way to get there. Your assistance shall be much appreciated..
Downtown A train to Broadway-Nassau, transfer to J train to Broad Street.
Thanks to Wayne and Brian on your directions to 70 Pine St. from the Port Authority bus terminal....It's interesting that you both suggest taking the A to Broadway-Nassau, but one recommends the J to Broad St. while the other the #2 or #3 to Wall St. That's what I love about New Yorkers... you could have two expert opinions and BOTH can be correct...
thanks again...JK
Take the Downtown "A" train from 42nd Street-8th Avenue station to Broadway-Nassau Street station. Get off there and transfer to the #2 or #3 train, following the red signs. It's a little bit of a walk through the passageway. Then take the first Brooklyn-bound train ONE STOP to Wall Street. Pine Street is one block north of Wall. #70 Pine is down towards the East River, near Water Street, about a block and a half or two blocks at most.
Wayne
While riding the B1 bus, I passed PS 248 (Training center) I was shocked to see the ENTIRE front of an R68 sitting on a flatbed truck! It was real. Not a mock up. It was complete. (Even signed up for JFK express) I guess it was a training simulator? I wonder where it's going? From what I saw (It was dark) It looked like it was about ten feet long (Up to first door set). Right next to it was the entire front of a R-62. It was also complete and signed up #7. Does anyone know the story behind them?
Hold on a minute. Did our friends at Coney Island dispose of R16 #6452? If they haven't, I wonder what will ultimately happen to it?
A strange car indeed. How many other R16s do you know were painted in Redbird Red?
The R62 and 68 ends that you saw had to be just that - mockups. I say that because I don't know of any R62 or 68 that was retired and put on the chopping block for the purpose of "mock up" operation at the school. Very interesting. I wonder if they're small enough to be put in the school???
-Stef
I found out more info:
They were built by Kawasaki as simulators. They are To scale. They are Real. If an R-68 had a wreck, They probably could use that front as a replacement. They were in the school. Now they are "Moving"? them. Does anybody know where they are going?
[ I found out more info:
They were built by Kawasaki as simulators. They are To scale. They are
Real. If an R-68 had a wreck, They probably could use that front as a
replacement. They were in the school. Now they are "Moving"? them.
Does anybody know where they are going? ]
They may be going to Livingston St. to join the other two simulators. Last time I was there, they told me they were getting more, and the improvements planned in the next generation. The ones I saw a couple of months ago were cute, but had some glaring faults. (I.e. they were based on laserdisc, and signal aspects always changed at the same point. This made timers ineffective, because regardless of what speed you went, they cleared in front of you.
Where At Livingston Street?
At the T/A headquarters. They're on the first floor -- just to the right of the main entrance, is another entrance directly to the Training center. My company is doing some business with the training dept -- with that contact, I got to play with their simulators. I even invited a fellow Sub-Talker at the time.
I dunno when/if they're going to use it for actual training, though.
more than likely for training and for evaluating operation. However one important aspect i feel is missing in the simulators MOTION in some form or another. operating a train isn't just by sight you have to feel how the train is reacting to your actions..
Some R-16s were painted red in the late 60s before the silver-and-blue scheme took over. I know this wasn't the Redbird red shade, but that's as close as they got.
Are there Two RTS buses #3222 & #3248 at PS 24 MTA Training????
Peace Out
Meaney
Exactly!!!! Long live the Redbirds!!!!
-Stef
I'll drink to that!
Will a superliner fit into penn station or would it become a convertable by the time it got there? also what about domes will they fit into penn station?
They will not fit into Penn Station.
Superliners are not used on the Northeast Corridor mainly because the cars won't clear the catanary wires. Even if the catanery system wasn't there, the Superliners probably still won't clear 30th St. Station (Philadelphia), Penn Station, or the Hudson/East River tunnels.
Also, you also have to consider the tunnels near Baltimore Penn Station. That is also one of the reasons why Superliners are not seen between New York and Washington, D.C.
Chaohwa
The Superliners won't fit because they are too high for the tunnels on the NEC. The ceiling will be too low.
Could they/are they used as far east as Washington?
Actually, I've heard they *will* fit into penn, but it's an awfully tight squeeze!!! From what I've heard, they've *tested* them into penn, but they don't run into penn, but it's realy close to the catenary. I believe they do run into Washington, because the lines in that station are higher.
What's the height of a superliner anyway? And what's the max height Amtrak's pantographs can reach?
They have not been tested into Penn - they will not clear the Hudson River tunnels (the top corners would touch the curved sides), nor is the catenary high enough on the NEC. I also understand that there would be a clearance problem in Baltimore.
They couldn't run into Washington until recently, when the tunnels exiting the station to the south were deepened to accomodate them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they run to Union Station in DC regularly.
In fact, didnt Amtrak try to run thru Superliner coaches on the Capitol Limited/Southwest Chief??
Amtrak does run Superliners on Capitol Limited and Cardinal, where they both start from Washington, D.C.
My question was wether they tried to run 'thru' sevice to LA on the Capitol, like I said I SEEM to remember it from someplace....(or maybe I was just thinking of when both the Pennsy and NYC tried doing similar nonsense, and found out allit did was screw them up even more!!)
1 Yes the Capitol Ltd & Cardinal are both Superliner equipped.
2. Yes the tunnels from Union Station south to access the bridge to Virginia had to be modified
3. There was a published picture in Railpace of an ATK special under wires east of Harrisburg bound for 30th St. Phila.
Regarding superliners under wires -
They sit under wires at Union station in DC, in addition to the trip they took into Phila. from Harrisburg. But the wires on the platforms they use in DC (the low level ones on the east side of the station) and on the Main Line are high level wires. Generally, the wires in the big stations like 30th St and Penn are low level. I do not think the superliners can fit under the low level caternary.
When the superliner train came to Phila, it platformed on track 0 (or maybe it was track 1), which, in addition to having a low platform, I think has no wires. But I am not sure...
I doubt there are any high level wires in Penn Station.
Does there exist anywhere a definitive list of all the different stickers and markings used on the sides of cars in the fleet?
Lennox trains have a Blue bar, with a orange diamond, and a green dot. I suppose the blue bar is just for Lennox Shop, but what's the orange diamond and green dot about?
On the B division, R68's have a dot to identify the transverse cab end of the cars.
Is there already a list somewhere to help decipher all these markings (dots, diamonds, stripes, etc) throughout the system? If not, can we make one?
I think those markings have something to do with routine maintenance information.
For instance, a green marking probably means the car checked out of the yard "okay". Yellow, means the car may need some kind of work within some pre-determined time frame; red markings would mean the car needs servicing sooner than other cars (just guessing here).
Doug aka BMTman
Right. I think that they have different meanings for different divisions, (or even different shops). I think it would be nice for us to have a comprehensive list, though. I'm not sure if anyone here has a comprehensive list, though, but together, we may have the info.
I don't know what all the different shaped and colored markings mean, but when I see the sign of the Pentagram on a car, it's a warning that you're likely to find werewolves in the car when there is a full moon.
The last cars to wear the mark of the Pentagram were R-7 #1415, R-6-1s #1233, #1277 and #1300, R-6-3 #937, Slant R40s #4418-4419 and #4328-4329, R44s #126, 147, 203 and 188, (#5410, #5311, #5357 and #5350 respectively) and R16s #6409 and #6428. This according to my Queens IND Graffitti Master list, a list I kept for a time from 1973 to 1975. This mark was never seen outside of the Queens IND.
#1415 was pretty impressive - had a wizard (complete with beard, moon & stars hat & cloak, wand etc.) and an erupting volcano. Covered almost the entire side.
Wayne
Yeah, I think that one was featured in that book on Subway Graffiti Art.
Doug aka BMTman
Peter Doughertys Book "Tracks Of The New York City Subway" In The Yard Maps Section Each Yard Description Mentions A Color Band Under Each Number Plate. Each Color Band Represents The Yard Or Yards That A Car Is Stored Or Repaired. Some Colorbands Represent Yards At Both Ends Of A Route; Example #3 Line IRT 148th Yard Manhattan & IRT Livonia Yard In The City Of Brooklyn.
September 8th, 1999
The IRT Redbirds are approaching the end of their careers. Will
the NYCTA keep a few cars for Nostalgia trains tours? Will they add a
few to the Museum collection after 2001? They have kept a few R-10s
from 1989, when they were serving out their last days on the A and C
lines. I saw a few R-30s in the Coney Island a few weeks ago, when I
took the F to Coney Island in Brooklyn. Will they make all these cars
into Nostalgia trains in the future?
James S. Li
I wouldn't be too surprised if a few redbirds were saved. Yes there are a few R30s, but not everyone of them is preserved for the Museum. Those cars are there for work service. There are no R10s left with the exception of two (3184 and 3189). 3184 is at Coney Island, while 3189 is being used as a school car for crews at Pitkin Yard.
-Stef
I would suspect that as the Redbirds are retired that
- the Electric Railroaders Association will have a "Farewell to the Redbirds" series of fantrips.
- some will go to work service displacing older equipment already in work service
- a select few will be retained as museum cars
- others will be offered to museums, but it would be up to the museums to handle the shipping and handling, and since this is very costly, many will not be picked up
- railfans like us will try to get pictures of them in the scrap line and artifacts in which to preserve their memory.
--Mark
September 8th, 1999
In the early 1960s,when the R-27s and R-30s arrived to the
BMT and introduced the letter routes, which lines received the new
cars first? Did any of the Eastern Lines receive the R-27s and R-30s
in the early 1960s? I looked at the roll signs, and found out that
there were markers for the Jamaica (J,JJ), Broadway-Brooklyn (KK),
14th Street-Canarsie (L,LL) and Myrtle Avenue (M) Lines.
In 1967, when the Chrystie Street Connection opened, what were
the markers for the roll signs on the IND and BMT cars? I heard some
of the 1967-1968 lines were unlisted like NX, RJ ,etc. Does anyone
have a lost of the roll signs for IND and BMT trains AFTER 1967?
James Li
The initial line to get R27s was the Brighton Local (QT and QB). Then the Fourth Avenue Local (RR).
As more were delivered, R27s began to be used on lare nights on most BMT Southern Division lines.
In the early days, none were used on the Eastern Division, which used R16s on 15-Jamaica and occasionally on the other lines. Standards were used most every where else on the Eastern lines, including some moved from the Southern Division to replace the Multis on the 10-Myrtle-Chambers.
Paul, I thought the Eastern Division got them first. I always associated the R-27/30 with the J Line. Might be due to the fact that when I became a traction fan I was a teenager in the early 70's. At that time, there was almost nothing but R-27/30s on almost all the BMT Divisions (before we got the R-44 cars, of course).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I'm talking from 1960 when the R-27s first started coming in and they did go to the Southern Division. At that time I covered the system fairly closely.
Similarly, the R32s were BMT Southern Division, initially displacing the Triplexes on the Brighton Express (Q).
The R-16s and BMT Standards ruled the Eastern Division through most of the '60s.
I was drafted just before Chrystie Street. I think my Uncle Sam thought I'd be happier someplace other than NYC to watch my beloved BMT being snipped to pieces. You know, you've heard stories of people join the Foreign Legion "to forget." Well, the foreign legion joined me, so to speak ;-)
So from September 1967 I never again followed the system with quite the detail as I had earlier. I suspect it was after than that R27s began to show up in other areas (than the Southern Division) big time.
Paul: I got the shock of my life when I traveled to New York for the first time in 20 years back in 1974. When I waited for the Sea Beach at 42nd Street it took four or five trains whizzing by me to understand that 1. The triplexes were a thing of the past, and 2. my beloved Sea Beach was now the N train instead of the 4 train. Boy did that bug me. It still does. 4 was my favorite number when I was a kid. Duke Snider wore that for Brooklyn and the Sea Beach wore that as a train. And I wore that number all over my clothes. You can bet what changes I would make if I had the power to do something about it, don't you?
Prior to Chrystie St the only time you would see an R-27 on the Eastern Division was one or two M-Nassau St Express (Brighton) or TT West End Local laying up midday at East New York Yard. They deadheaded between there and Chambers Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s were intially assigned to the Southern Division and stayed there until the Chrystie St. connection opened. After that, some R-27/30s went to the Eastern Division; others went to the IND. The R-32s invaded IND territory for the first time, but still served the Southern Division on the B and D lines.
As for signage, the R-27s and R-30s originally kept the old Southern Division titles as well as the new "Broadway" designations in conjunction with their new letter markings. I can vaguely remember seeing "RR-Broadway/4th Ave. Local" and "QB-B'way-Brighton Local via Bridge" side signs in 1967. After the Chrystie St. connection opened, these cars received new curtains which had only a "Broadway" subscript on Southern Division routes. The only Eastern Division markings I ever saw were J/Nassau St; JJ/Nassau St.; and QJ with no subscript. The RJ and NX signs also had no subscript.
The R-32s featured signs with "Broadway" as the only subscript except the TT, which had "West End". IND signs kept the same 8th Ave. and 6th Ave. subscripts as did the R-1/9s and R-10s. Interestingly enough, the R-32s and R-38s were delivered with BB signs, but no B signs. B signs were pasted over the BB markings on R-32s; I'm not sure if this was done on the R-38s. One difference I noticed was the bulkhead D sign on the R-32s featured a rounded D, compared to the angular, squared-off D on the R-1/9s. Of course, with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, each route was color-coded, and beginning with the R-40s, the route signs reflected this. In an modest attempt to standardize markings in conjunction with this new color code, multicolored route roller curtains were installed in the front destination slot on the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s. The R-16s also received multicolored side route curtains. For some reason, the R-27s and R-30s were skipped over, although a few of them apparently did receive these new curtains.
R-1/9s which remained on the IND kept their old roller curtains until they were retired. Those which wound up on the Eastern Division received new bulkhead route curtains with just the letter markings (KK, LL, M, QJ) and no subscripts. Front destination signs were not used; very often the original IND curtain was simply cranked all the way to the end of the roll leaving the dirty white canvas showing. Side sign boxes were fitted with new Eastern Division route and destination curtains. I have a side route curtain which includes the MM marking; perhaps the bulkhead curtains also had it.
Yes the bulkhead signs on at least some of the Eastern Div. R-7, R-7A and R-9 did carry the "MM" - saw an "M" shuttle with this on one end once (December 27, 1969, in the snow - I fiddled with the side signs and soon they all said "MM").
Wayne
You really liked to play with those signs, didn't you? I did it once, on a BMT standard, but my mother almost had a heart attack over it.
I know that the "Nassau St. Loop" pre-1967 referred to trains operating to Manhattan through the Montague St. tunnel and back to Brooklyn on the Manhattan Bridge (or vice versa) - from the Southern Division back to the Southern Division.
Question: Did any trains then do what the present rush-hour M train does and the 1967 QJ train did - operate through the tunnel, up Nassau St. and over the Williamsburgh Bridge, joining the Eastern and Southern Divisions together? If not, what were the usual terminals along the Nassau St. line for trains coming from the tunnel and from the Williamsburgh Bridge?
Prior to Chrystie Street this is a simplied routing of services operating on Nassau St:
Eastern Division via Willy B
#10 Myrtle-Chambers Metropolitan-Chambers St Rush Hours
#14 Broadway-Brooklyn Local 168,111,Crescent,Rockaway Pkwy,Atlantic, Eastern Pkwy - Canal St Rush hours
#15 Jamaica Local/Express 168 Street-Broad St All Times,Exp in Bkyln rush hours in direction of traffic.
Southern Division
#1 Brighton-Nassau (or M-Nassau St Express) am rush lv Brighton Beach via tunnel to Chambers (exp Kings Hwy to Prospect Pk) deadhead via Manny B south side to Dekalb then as Brighton Exp to Brighton Beach.
pm rush deadhead from Brighton Bch via Manny B south side to Chambers then to Coney Island via tunnel (exp Prospect Pk to Kings Hwy)
#2 4 Avenue -Nassau via tunnel(might have carried RR signs as these where early am put ins from layup. Chambers-95 St via tunnel
#2 4 Avenue-Nassau Loop service via bridge and tunnel
am rush lv 95 St to Broad via Manny B south side (exp 59 to Pacific and bypass Dekalb)then continue with passengers to 9 Av via West End Local. Carried M-Nassau St Exp signs to Manhattan and TT West End Local signs back to Brooklyn.
pm rush lv 9 Av via West End Local (TT) to Broad via tunnel then continue to Dekalb via Manny B south side then all local stops to 95 St. Carried TT signs to Court St then changed to S-Special although front sign carried M-Nassau St.
#3 West End - Nassau (TT West End Local) Chambers-Bay Parkway(Coney Island midday,rush put-ins/pull outs to 9 Avenue M-F 6a-6p. Reversed north of Chambers.
One or two of the Brighton-Nassau Expresses laid up at East New York Yard midday deadheading between there and Chambers St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Those were the good old days!!!
Around 1962 or 1963, one of the evening rush Brighton-Nassau specials ran an 8 car train of R27s, and was signed "Q-Broadway-Brighton Exp", with terminals "Chambers St" and "Coney Island". I'm not sure where this one layed up during the day, and never saw R27s on the run in the AM, just standards at that time. All of the other runs were 6-car trains of standards.
-- Ed Sachs
Dan: I had to dig real deep for this one but to further answer your question there was a very limited amount of through service from the Eastern Division to the Southern Division prior to Chrystie Street. From at least 1949 to November 1954 two morning rush #10 Myrtle-Chambers Expresses upon arriving at Chambers St were converted to #3 West End Locals and continued on to 62 Street with passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry...Were they running Multis on the Myrtle-Chambers at that time (1949-54)?
Carl M.
#10 Myrtle-Chambers used AB's until 6/20/55 when a train of R-16s went into service and by Nov almost all service was by R-16's. The B types came back in Sep 1956 when 50 R-16's were sent to the IND. Starting on Nov 15,1956 after the Fulton Street El closed the Multis were used here up until Sept 5.1961. Then the AB's came back with the occassional R-16.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, I seem to recall that the Eastern Division got a load of 'em. The Jamaica Line (JJ) and later (?) the Brighton Line received a host of them (probably to retire the Standards which were the mainstay of the Brighton for many years).
Doug aka BMTman
how many people passed the test given july 17,1999?
how many provisionals passed out of how many?
I have heard that 85% of the provisionals failed the exam and I have also heard of several conductors that are still on probation were called for their motors physical.
What??? Where did you hear this??
All of the provisionals I know (60 some odd of the 142 that I am aware of) and I am one of them passed, some not as well as others, but they passed. Several who took the test have since gone back to their former titles.
The test was not as half as hard as the last one, and if any provisionals failed it was because the just didn't read the bulletins.
Later,
Chris
several people have been called for train op but only 60% are showing for thier exams. I'm still trying to find out the total number on the list
I took my physical on Thur. and was able to enter Mon. class but turned it down because I have 3 months left on my probation and would be considered a new hire if I went. Hopefully I will be called after the first of the year.
Who told you that. You would be hired as a provisional instead until your list number became certified.
Ms. Evans at the crew office stated that since I didn't have a year in title I would have no position to go back to.
Have your name reinstated to the #9501 list immediately so you can get put back on the list so you can get called later..
I sent my G-2 in Fri. night.
I don't see how anyone could've failed that test
Youre right test was easy and 98% of information covered on test was made available. may should have passed if they studied. BIG IF!!!
I called the Union in order to get an answer to your question and according to them......Out of the 2600 some odd people who applied for the test, only 800, or so, passed. (That is a quote.) Specifically referring to the number of provisionals who passed, they don't have a definite number as of yet.
I personally would be very surprised if the failure rate were to be high.
I understand the statistics for provisionals are rather low. The reason why is only mine as a union steward and NOT that of the union's One factor is that now the employee can be judged before their list number is certified. In other words, they can be judged as a T/O before they even take the exam, therefore the TA can get rid of the T/O using section 61 (one in three) of the civil service code because they weren't hired permanantly to begin with. Thus the incident where 97 provisional TSSs were demoted to T/O (Even though that exceeded the one in three rule, only three bothered to fight (the ones who are now Superintendants.
Saw police cars blocking one of the entrances to the #6 station yesterday evening (about 5:30PM). Anyone know what was going on?
Nick
The City was spraying Pelham Bay Park and the Orchard Beach area with pesticide. Gotta get those mosquitos before they get us.
I guess along with those ever loving metrocards MTA should be selling OFF insect repellant too! Ouch...
Remember the Shell No-Pest Strip Insecticide?
I saw the Jerome and White Plains (2/5) el yesterday while on the Cross Bronx...
My guesses are --
#4 -- Mt Eden Avenue
#2/5 -- E Tremont Avenue station (?)
Nick
Right you are. The north end of the Mt. Eden Ave. station extends over the Cross Bronx. The East Tremont Ave. station is a couple of blocks north of the Cross Bronx and doesn't actually extend over it, but it is certainly the closest station on the 2/5 line.
Also, the 177th/Parkchester station of the '6' is flush over the Cross Bronx, or rather Hugh Grant Circle, which the Expressway tunnels under. Most weekdays, you can see trains laying up on either local (outside) track while stuck in traffic.
The Belt is also good for trainspotting, as it passes under the 'F', 'D/Q' and 'A'. With typical weekend traffic, you're sure to see something.
I alway see a Q racing towards or out of BB when passing on the Belt. Love the shot of the CI complex as well......
3TM
72St. Transfer available to the 1 and 9 across the platform making local stops to 79 and 86. On the upper level, M5, M7, M11, M57, M72, and the M104. 96St-Bway will be the next express stop. Step in and stand clearrrrr............
Right. I wonder, in a few years, will people seriously think that Hugh Grant Circle is named for the actor? Probably.
Don't forget the trainyard in Coney Island!!!! The Belt goes right over it.
Don't forget the Mt Eden station on the #4 line running up Jerome Aveune goes right over the Cross Bronx Expressway.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
It's also worth mentioning that when you dive under the Concourse when you're stuck in typical X-Bx traffic, you are going under the B/D Station at 174/175th Sts. This station is probably the most unique station on the entire subway system - with stairways up to the Concourse and down to Walton Ave. and 175th St. It's the answer to the trivia question - "Name the NYC subway station where the customer walks upstairs into an underground platform?" I must confess that I know this because my wife spent her childhood at Walton and 174th St., right next door.
As I recall, several of the stations along the Concourse line had entries from below. This is because the Concourse runs on a high ridge, and many of the crosstown streets tunnel beneath it; the subway is actually above these tunnels. 167th and 170th Streets come to mind. There were stairways up from the tunnels to the stations, mainly to serve passengers transferring from crosstown bus/trolley lines. I even recall separate trolley (later bus) islands in the middle of the 167th St. tunnel.
Are any of these entrances still open?
I also remember the 167th St. Cafeteria, between the Concourse and Jerome Ave. Ate there numerous times in the 50's and 60's.
-- Ed Sachs
All stations from 167 to Bedford Park have a South exit to the Concourse underpass. In addition Kingsbridge has an entire lower mezzanine from which you exit up to the concourse or straight out to the underpass. There are also two closed ramps which come up on the South side of the udnerpass- these are long closed.
How 'bout the Jerome Cafeteria opp. Yankee Stadium? Ate breakfast there many times when I was a vendor during my teens. Once met Bobby Murcer sitting alone eating breakfast!!!
Also, how about Dubrow's at the Kings Hway Brighton Station. Too bad all the cafeterias closed. Much healthier than heart attack causing fast food places. At least you got real vegetables. Now kids think french fries is a vegetable!!
Dubrows ... yes, I remember it well!
--Mark
Never ate at the Jerome Cafeteria.
Ate at Dubrow's. Also, on the Brighton line, do you remember Cookie's (at Ave. U and Ave. M)?
-- Ed Sachs
Yes I do.
I also remember Cookie's in Hempstead, same owner as the one in Bklyn.
How 'bout the Jerome Cafeteria opp. Yankee Stadium? Ate breakfast there many times when I was a vendor during my teens. Once met Bobby Murcer sitting alone eating breakfast!!!
Also, how about Dubrow's at the Kings Hway Brighton Station. Too bad all the cafeterias (and automats) closed. Much healthier than heart attack causing fast food places. At least you got real vegetables. Now kids think french fries is a vegetable!!
Did you get Bobby's autograph?
Nope, never was into autographs!!
Three more spots for train-spotting when you're driving:
In Astoria, the N train crosses the Grand Central Parkway at the Triboro Bridge entrance;
In Woodside, the #7 passes over the BQ Expway near 69th-Fisk Ave. Station
In the East Bronx, the #6 crosses the Hutchinson River Parkway about a mile north of the Bruckner Interchange.
The BQE rubs shoulders with the 'F' and 'G' on the Smith-9th viaduct. There's no crossing, but you can easily see trains from the Queens-bound lanes.
The Grand Central goes under the leads for the Jamaica yard, where you can see 'E's and 'R's in movement outside, albeit not in passenger service. I used to love passing this same yard on the Van Wyck in the early-to-mid 70s when there was a big, interesting mix of equipment on the Queens IND. You could see R-4s sleeping right next to R-46s, along with R-16s, 38s, Slants, Mod-40s and 44s.
Saw a redbird group headed by an R29 very close to Westchester Square, head car was #8665 (I think, I can positively ID it as #866x).
What kinds of redbirds does the #6 use other than R36s and a few R29s (probably sent over from E 180 in exchange for the R62As running on Dyre Shuttle)?
Nick
The No.6 Line has lots of Redbirds. We have R29'S,R 33'S, and R 36's
I know this is off-topic, but I have to comment about 9/9/99(tomorrow's Y9K bug:)). MSN actually has a story on it! It's as phony as Y2K.
It's being described as a Y2K preview already. Guess what? Planes won't fall out of the sky and buildings explode because of a date change!
It's gotten ridiculous IMHO.
(Did anything happen on 7/7/77 or 8/8/88?)
Oh no not another STEVE ! I'm still having trouble with all the "Js" from Chicago :-(
[ Oh no not another STEVE ! I'm still having trouble with all the "Js"
from Chicago :-( ]
I second that. This new steve needs to change his name.
Having a relatively common name is quite annoying. At this point, I've gotten into the habit of ignoring people in my office who yell "Steve" across the room, because half of the time it isn't for me.
To summarize, there are several regular Steve's here:
SteveK (Me): Some of you may have met me at Branford.
Steve: of Councourse Barn (nee Jamaica)
Steve B: don't say anything bad about a R10 or the A train in front of him. Also likes talking about rims and stuff.
Other Steves that I don't know too much about: "Subway Steve" (just posted), "Steve L", name rings a bell, but I'm not sure. Anyways, all-in-all, too many steve's!
to avoid any confusion Ill change mine to JTC356. There goes another Steve
[ to avoid any confusion Ill change mine to JTC356. There goes another
Steve ]
I was kidding in my previous post, Steve.. Please don't feel like I am asking anyone to change their identity! (To be honest, I haven't gotten confused by all this, but I think others may have).
BTW: Isn't Concourse Yard Steve's initial K also?. Now, that would be confusing! Of course, he has a Harley, I think, and I have a Honda :)
No wait, Concorse Steve has a Honda too.
*I'm* the one with the Harley!!. Of course, I'm a Phil not a Steve. I don't know what I'll do if another Phil pops up here.......
My Initial is K. but I don't own a Harley - just 3 Honda's (4 if you count my car). I would rather not be linked to my work location because since 1994 I've been in the Concourse 3 times and Jamaica twice. It'll be just my luck, I'll end up being "239th St. Steve." For now, I claim seniority for using just plain Steve. If there is any other Steve that contests my claim, we'll work it out privately.
You're (IND) Steve to me ... that blankty blank Supt Steve to others, but we love you just the as well as plain old Steve !
Mr t__:^)
Yes, I remember you as being the original Steve also. I've always used my full name, but I think I may have become a SubTalker before Wayne Whitemore, but I could be wrong.
Wayne
[to avoid any confusion Ill change mine to JTC356. There goes another Steve]
Me too ... I was just kidding ... please don't feel the need to change on my account. I just happen to have a not so common name, but there's more to my story since my first initial is "R" for Robert,
talk about common names :-(
Mr t
We'll just have to start calling you Dave
At BSM we had, at one time, six people named David. Yell "DAVE!" and up to six different voices replied. It was confusing for a while, until some of the Dave's went off to other pursuits.
Don't forget about me because my real name is David & i used my name on the subtalk than i change to Meaney because there is too many David onSubtalk & u don't know who you are.
Peace Out
Meaney
Gee, I thought I knew who I was...
I'm keeping my present handle. Granted, nothing will ever compare to the R-10s, but that's just my opinion. Just because I loved the R-10s doesn't mean everyone else did. Put it this way: my father thinks Lawrence Welk is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I can't stand the guy. He should have been arrested for impersonating a bandleader.
We had three Steves when I worked in our company's repair shop. It was pretty interesting. I have a Lithuanian middle name, and had it not been for the priest who baptized me, my first and middle names would have been switched. In retrospect, he did me a huge favor.
As for the rim shots, that originated with Milton Berle. Whenever he would tell a joke, his orchestra drummer would play a short roll and end it with a stinger on the hi-hat. We have a talk radio station in Denver whose hosts play a canned rim shot if they say something funny.
Funny but I actually miss the R10's. (and their IRT lookalikes) I hated them then because they weren't R1-9's!! I also hated the slants for that reason but now I pray for one when I'm with my 3yr old son. Thats the only subway train which I don't have to carry him to look out the front window!!! (He finally made the LIRR window on his tippy toes) And at 46 I'm not as strong as I used to be!!!
[ Thats the only subway train which I don't have to carry him to look
out the front window!!! (He finally made the LIRR window on his tippy ]
If you ask nicely, and you don't have a grumpy engineer, there's definately easy ways for your son to see out the window of a C3 cab car. I don't remember how high the storm window is, but there's a seat across from the engineer. Often the cab doors are flipped all the way open, which makes it like a open corner cab.
Next to William A. Padron, I'm probably the biggest R-10 fan around. As for fondness for cars, the R-1/9s and R-10s are dead even in my book. I loved both of those car classes, especially since the conductor worked the doors from the outside on them.
As for having too many Steves, I have yet to see a posting from any John Smith on Subtalk.
That always looked scary how the conductors worked the doors on the R1-10 cars. (Also some IRT cars had the same controls) I always wondered why a conductor would pick a route with those cars as opposed to other cars such as the standard where the door control was in the console between the center doors.
my transit buff page
That's a good point. I wondered about that myself. One slip on those step plates, and you'd be cut in half.
The R-12s and R-14s also had trigger boxes, but after they were transferred to the main lines, they never ran in solid trains again except for the ones which were used on the 3rd Ave. el. They were never found in the middle of a train; i. e., they were never located at a conductor's station on the mainlines.
Hmm, now there's an idea!!
No, I'm not new.
Up until last week, I was Broadway El Steve. I just changed my handle since I found "Broadway El" Steve exclusionist:)
If it's really too confusing I'll change it.
Since I've met about a dozen of you a picture comes to my mind when I see your post, so when you change your handle the picture gets cloudy.
It's like painting a Red Bird ORANGE ... oh perish the thought.
P.S. I had some fun with this, I hope all you Steve's did too !
Mr t__:^)
(For the record...)
I'll admit it: I'm a Steve too (a Steve L, to be exact). But when I first started reading Subtalk back in January, I decided there were just 2 too many. (At the time, I only saw Steve and Steve B. posting frequently.)
So on the rare occasions that I've posted something, I've always used "Henry".
There's good reason for the 'story.' 9999 was the computer code for "end of program" or "no data" in the good-old-days. That's why 7/7/77 or 8/8/88 weren't worries.
That being said, I agree that there's a lot less to worry about than the media will imply. Sure, a few pencil points will break tomorrow. But we'll still have to Stand-Clear-Of-The-Clozin-Dawz as always.
There will a few anecdotes tomorrow when all is said and done; some coincidences (problems that would have occured no matter what the date).
Yeah, there could have been problems with 9999 -- but nobody uses computer punch cards or ticker-tape anymore. We are long out of the "computer dark ages". Thank goodness for progress!
Doug aka BMTman
True, there will not be many problems tomorrow. Because even most computers that abbreviate the date abbreviate it 09/09/99...only the few that go 9/9/99 are the ones that will have problems. However, don't be mistaken that it's a Y2k preview....for many computers still abbreviate the date, which will be effected by Y2k. On January first, you don't want your computer reading 1/1/00 or 01/01/00.....you want it to say January 1st, 2000....for that is how the bug is fixed. But those who don't fix the bug will effect those who do, especially other countires. The real problems will occur when each time zone one-by-one hits the new year.
Now, I realize this topic is somewhat off topic, so if we continue to discuss it, you may as well ask questions like how NYC and the subways/buses/Metro North/LIRR will be effected....to keep within the guidelines of the forum. -Nick
You might think it's a joke or nothing to worry about but I know at least one large bank (whose name sounds like Chase Manhattan) is going to be on full Y2K alert mode tomorrow.
Some organizations are going into full panic mode over this, including my employer. I've spent way too much time doing Y2K paperwork in order to ensure that, in the off chance that something doesn't work on 01/01/2000, the people ultimately responsible are rewarded and those who had nothing to do with it get the blame. As the project manager for a complex, multi-system software/hardware platform, I will be in the office from one hour before Y2K at the international date line until five hours past Y2K at the same point - 30 hours straight, even though the chance of a problem in our system is essentially nil, and the chance of a problem that will affect anyone else in the world IS absolute zero. It's a pure publicity stunt for my employer, to be able to tell its customers that it is doing everything to ensure that their service will not be affected by Y2K, it's being done at the expense of my family, and I won't be getting paid one extra nickel for it either. But that's life.
There are many doomsayers out there who prey on people's fears. Those who are still forecasting doom because of Y2K don't know what they are talking about. The infrastructure of America, or of the world, will not suddenly cease operating on January 1, 2000. The absolute worst that could happen is that someone won't be billed for a unit of electricity or a phone call, or the bill may be delayed a couple of days. But the electricity will keep flowing and the phones will keep working (although the phone networks may get temporarily overloaded if everyone tries to make a call right after midnight "just to make sure"). Life will go on, just as it has before.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[There are many doomsayers out there who prey on people's fears. Those who are still forecasting doom because of Y2K don't know what they are talking about. The infrastructure of America, or of the world, will not suddenly cease operating on January 1, 2000.]
When I was 12 years old or thereabouts, I read in this book _Criswell Predicts_ (by Criswell, a crackpot psychic who had enjoyed a burst of popularity) that the world would end on August 18, 1999. Even though I knew it was almost certainly nonsense, I must confess that there indeed was a slight modicum of doubt in my impressionable adolescent mind. Needless to say, 8/18/99 passed uneventfully, just as 1/1/2000 surely will.
By the way - Criswell himself didn't have to put up with any criticism when the world didn't end as he predicted. Ever since 1984, he has been, as the French would say, eating dandelions by the root.
I'm kind of glad it didn't. It would've ruined my birthday.
-Hank :)
Ohh Drat there goes my Continental Miles!!!
I heard that plenty of companies are taking this very seriously. I'm an IT professional and I've spend lots of time on Y2K tasks.
Wayne
Pardon a possible dumb question, but I've seen this ad on the LIRR lately for IT employers. I assume IT stands for Information Technology. Is that correct?
Welcome to the jungle! Try straightening out a native-grown medical billing system where every move is determined by the difference between dates. We rewrote the julian date conversion algorithm, redid all of our files to carry eight digits for the date, fixed God knows how many screens and report programs, what a mess! Good thing we flagged all the accounts on file that had a birthdate of 18xx back in 1997.
Wayne
What could possibly happen that could really warrant
this much fuss?
Personally, I don't think much more of it than some New
Year's inconvenience for some people.
But your computer will shut down, your bank account will
automatically close, nuclear missiles all across the
planet will launch themselves and life as we know it will
cease becuase of a date change?(That's my last word on the
subject).
[What could possibly happen that could really warrant
this much fuss?]
I do think that some people are paranoid, but others do not take the Y2K issue serious enough. I realize that many people don't have a good understanding of this problem. I explained several times that pretty much every service that we use/enjoy involves computers in some way. Many of these systems are perform based on the time and or date - therefore it is necessary for the systems to ready. In the perfect world the original designers would've been less short-sighted.
BTW - Yes, IT does stand for Information Technology.
If you're in this field - there's big $$$ to be made on Y2K projects, especially for programmers/mainframe people.
Wayne
IAT6108S World Abended. Press CNTL-ALT-DEL to reboot ....
("Abended", for non-Information Technology people, is an "abbreviation" of "abnormally terminated").
--Mark
[Press CNTL-ALT-DEL to reboot ....]
Also know as the "three finger salute" to us DOSers, i.e. before Windows 98 when the PC use to freeze up a lot ... use to, ha ha.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, I try to remain true to my DOS roots. My mentor was a DOS head as some people say.
I recently started using Explorer regularly.
Wayne
I know someone who is an accountant at a large firm here in Memphis. They have software that prints out tax returns so that they don't have to fill them out.
Well, 9/9/99 gets printed as "VARIOUS" on the returns, so there is definately somewhat of an issue. Their solution? They are having a company-wide golf tournament tomorrow. :-)
Brandon
"Now, I realize this topic is somewhat off topic, so if we continue to discuss it, you may as well ask questions like how NYC and the subways/buses/Metro North/LIRR will be effected....to keep within the guidelines of the forum."
Here in Chicago, Metra not only has a Y2K disclosure statement on its website at:
http://www.metrarail.com/y2k-statement.html
it also devoted the cover page of the Aug./Sept. "On the (Bi)Level" to how Y2K will -- or more precisely will not -- affect Metra operations. The newsletter in question is also on the Web, at:
http://www.metrarail.com/Bilevel/otbl0899.html
As an aside, there was recently a top-level Chicago conference on Y2K, the highlights of which were broadcast on WGN Radio, at which spoke Mayor Daley and representatives of the Banking Association, Commonwealth Edison (electric power), Ameritech (telephones), and several other utilities and service companies potentially vulnerable to Y2K. I don't recall if there was anyone in attendance from the CTA. The speakers were generally optimistic that important and/or safety-related systems like electric power, telephones, water and sewer, air traffic control, automatic elevators, bank computers, etc. would NOT fail in the U.S. but that there could be failures of just such vital systems in some foreign countries as well as computer failure and data loss in some smaller to mid-sized companies.
Actually, the VMS operating system *still* has provisions in it for punch cards ($deck, and a few others). It also can do *linemode* editing, in case you have a geniune Teletype.
Anyway, this Y2k stuff won't affect me much - the school's system is a Vax (long since Y2K compliant), and I have a Macintosh (Nah nah!!), so I just have to worry about power comming in.
Related stuff:
Does anyone know what computers the MetroCard(tm) system runs on?
Also, don't Westinghouse E Cam controllers keep track of time in order to log glitches, etc? For that matter - where does one get parts for anything Westinghouse? Last time I checked, Westinghouse didn't exist anymore....
Hi Phil. WABCO should exist as we do have a number at TMNY to get the Johnstown PCC brake cylinders resleeved. Interestingly, Bendex sold out and it's new owner went bankrupt shortly afterwards. I heard from CED that some existing Westinghouse cars may get the ECAMS to replace the OEM. My guess is that since Westcode and Westinghouse service parts arrive on a regular basis to yards such as Pitkin, that we have to look a little harder.
Johnstown PCC brake cylinders resleeved????? AFAIK, ALL the Johnstown PCC's were all-electric, and don't have brake cylinders - All-electrics have BRAKE ACTUATORS, which only came in two flavors, GE or Westinghouse.
BTW, it's 0134 here, and already 9/9/99, and nothing funny has happened in the hour and thirty-four minutes since midnight.
The previous owners of 358 had modified the car with a diesel engine and air brakes.
O.K., 358 is not a PCC, it's one of the dozen standard double-end cars that almost every eastern museum got one of. Wasn't 358 formerly at Stone Mountain? I believe a picture of it, decked out in a "good 'ol days" paint scheme made it into Trains Magazine in the late 1960's.
Yes, 358 is at Kingston - see the pictures at this site, including a shot of 358 in Stone Mountain livery.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was at Stone Mountain three months ago and rode on the train. There was no mention of any converted streetcars ever running there.
It's been a while - according to Kingston's web page it ended service there in the early '80s (they acquired it in 1991). I don't recall if it was there when I visited Stone Mountain in 1970.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WABCO Is VERY much alive. It is now a subsidiary of Motive Power Industries (The old Morrison Knudsen rail operations)., they have a real nice online parts catalog (I went through $75.00 worth of ink jet cartridges printing it out) and it was worth every penny.
[Does anyone know what computers the MetroCard(tm) system runs on? ]
I think they're IBM. The report software is DB2, and depots/stations are PCs with OS2. Now that's part of the security system because so few folks still use OS2.
Would you believe the system was designed on a PC then ported to mainfrane ?
Mr t__:^)
You'd be surprised how many bank ATMs are powered with OS/2 ....
--Mark
The terminal inside the booth is a Z86 running DOS Protected Mode. The main computer in the station is a 486. No windows here!
Thank goodness we went live with OS390 two weeks ago.
Being the youngest person here to ever operate on a VMS system (I will continue doing so today) I've seen all the weird gadgets and stuff associated with the system. For that matter, 8/1/99 was when my company FINALLY got rid of all all its WYSE terminals and Texas Instruments thermal TTYs. Our changeover to a Y2K compliant system (STILL VMS) is 10/1/99, or thereabouts. Right in the middle of their busiest season. They replaced the TTYs and WYSE sets with IBM 300GLs, running a proprietary DOS-based terminal program under Windows98, which is causing all sorts of problems with the computer illiterates in the company (about 80% of those in the field) who say 'Hey the program didn't start fast enough for me, I'l click it again'. They then call the help desk.
Oh, and they don't expect any 9/9/99 stuff at all, because the dates coded in the system are 09/09/99.
-Hank
I keep fearing the day my school dumps VMS for an "industry standard solution" (read: wintel) Our current uptime, on a system running DNS, web serving, and 6000+ email accounts (among other things), is in the order of 80+ days, with reboots/upgrades over the semester breaks. I doubt a clone running NT is going to touch that.
[Yeah, there could have been problems with 9999 -- but nobody uses computer punch cards or ticker-tape anymore. We are long out of the "computer dark ages". Thank goodness for progress!]
Doug O-L-D friend, you're dating youself ! I have fond memories of putting that tape in the teletype machine ... or how about the fun when you dropped the deck of cards. Certainly more fun then a loop in your code.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston -- I'm not that O-L-D! I just remember the computer punch cards from my high school days. Those things were huge and made a racket when they were in use. You don't have to go back too far to remember those dinosaurs! ;-)
Yeah, I remember dropping a deck or too of those cards.
Doug aka BMTman
Uh oh ... I remember when cards were the only way, and I had to drive to another building if I wanted the cards read onto tape ... and when our paychecks were printed on a punch card so my employer could balance the corporate checkbook faster ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the date is stored properly, as I believe most are, it would be internally represented as: 090999, which is NOT 999999. Put slashes and zero-suppression on 090999 and you have 9/09/99 or 9/ 9/99.
I haven't seen code like that used since back in the late 1970s when we were using punch cards. It used to mean "end of batch" for us, not "end of run".
Wayne
I was wondering if anyone knows when the next fantrip will be?
I know the last couple of fantrips where in September.
If anyone knows more please keep me posted.
SORRY! There will be no trip for this year at least. I went on the 8/26/1999 Canarise/14th St Line tour with the Transit Museum and asked them this question. Here is their answer:
NO. The cars need electrical work and they have asbestos. Nobody wants to work on them.
Mark Feinman contacted the private firm that sponsored the previous trips and he also confirms no trip.
I feel like I am missing an old friend! maybe next year ( I hope!)
As an attemped fix, I am going on the lIRR fan trip instead.
I guess this means they won't be running on the 42nd St. shuttle on October 27. Unless, of course, they made everyone hold their breath during each run.
Where have I heard this before? The next question is who is doesn't want to work on them? The Museum People or TA personnel in general? I can only see nothing but bad things happening to these cars if they are left to detiorate to a hapless condition. If that is the case, then preserving the cars could have been a waste of time. The BU's may never move again under their own power because of the asbestos issue. At least they're inside the NY Transit Museum and are protected. The Lo-Vs, the D-Types, and others are not protected, as they are exposed to the elements of Coney Island Yard.
Asbestos has been around for years and is not confined to just a Lo-V or a BU. As I recall, all R Types have it in some way. Nobody was complaining about asbestos when the BUs ran in 1980. Why complain now? I hate politics in the worst way.
I have to tell you but my worst fear is having someone in the TA office call up and tell the Superintendent at Coney Island to get rid of those Museum Cars as they serve no purpose other than taking up track space. Remember the purge of Museum Equipment back in the 1980s??? Absolutely anything is possible.
Right now I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I would certainly hope that there would be a substitute available for ailing Lo-Vs and D-Types. SMEE cars anyone? It might be the perfect time to have a SMEE car fan trip since a number of our beloved Redbirds are heading up to the big train yard in heaven.
-Stef
Have the Museum "assume ownership" of the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St (ex-Culver) and park the museum cars currently in CI yard there. The lower level can hold up to 30 60-foot cars on its three tracks. The ends of the station can be fenced off in a similar fashion to that of the Transit Museum at Court Street. Open one of the entrances to the lower level and charge an admission fee to both see the cars and the lower level station, to make even a little bit of money back that could be used to offset part of the costs of ownership. Also, moves to CI yard for servicing are very easy using the center track of the West End Line. This scenario frees up track space in CI Yard so people int he "TA office" have no reason to complain.
--Mark
Just got my calendar. There will be a tour 11/13 of Grand Central subways with Joe Cunningham and 12/12 of "Subway Unification" with a tour guide with initials A.S. (This person is known to us!)
Also in December-time TBA ,is Joe Raskin's lecture of Routes not Built.(yes- I did persuade him to give us a piece for the site!)
(There will be some more activities but I listed those of interest to SUb Talkers.)
While the museum is closed atcivities will be held at the satellite facillity at Grand Central.
tour with the Transit Museum and asked them this question. Here is their answer:
NO. The cars need electrical work and they have asbestos. Nobody wants to work on them.
Mark Feinman contacted the private firm that sponsored the previous trips and he also confirm
Depends on to whom you talk. I've been under those 4 Lo-Vs
to help the TA mechanics diagnose some control group problems.
There are some problems, but nothing that is beyond serviceability.
The asb****s issue is more of a political one than anything else.
There are areas in the electrical system which are insulated with
the funky white stuff. On the Lo-Vs, it is in good condition
and certainly poses no threat to anyone sitting up in the car or
in the station. To work on the wiring in these areas merely requires
some simple precautions. The Transit Museum had a professional
consultant come down and evaluate the conditions on their cars and
the recommendation was to leave it in place, paint it with glyptal
and not worry about it.
The union that represents the car maintainers (is that TWU 100 or
some other union?) did not want its people to have to work on
the cars and that is a legitimate gripe since these are privately
owned vehicles.
The union that represents the car maintainers (is that TWU 100 or
some other union?) did not want its people to have to work on
the cars and that is a legitimate gripe since these are privately
owned vehicles.
This would be a legitimate grievance if the cars' maintenance was in the jurisdiction of a different union.
As a union issue, I would think the maintainers would demand that they maintain any equipment that runs in their jurisdiction, rather than have the work performed by non-union personnel.
Sounds like "not my job, man," to me.
Asbestos isn't dangerous. There were two varieties used, AFAIK, a long fiber and a short fiber type, only one is dangerous and int's the less used of the two. Compounds exist not only to cover it up, but to actually convert it into a non dangerous form, yet retain the flame resistance it needs. On top of that, pretty much the only people who got cancer from it were those who worked in asbestos factories for dozens of years. FWIW, fiberglass is a suspected cause of lung cancer too - got your 12" of it in the attic?
There's more of it floating around from car brake linings than anything else anyway - yet it was only recently that non asbestos linnings became standard, and that stuff isn't treated like toxic waste anyway.
As for the unions - why not like union members *volunteer* to work on the cars? I'm sure a few would - and it's good PR too.
But in any case, I think the asbestos issue is just a cover for some bigger issue with running these cars, and I suspect that issue is political more than technical.
The most depressing and disgusting thing I saw when I was in New York occurred while I was waiting for the 3 train to take me to Brooklyn. At the end of the platform on a quiet afternoon I heard some shuffling. Seconds later I saw a big ugly rat scurry past. I mean he was big and ugly and he acted as if I wasn't around. I hope this doesn't sound stupid but after asking and getting confirmation that there are a lot of rats in the NY subway system, my question is has the TA, the mayor or anyone else in charge ever thought about eradicating this problem? I'd like to hear from you on this because I lost my appetite when I saw that disgusting thing.
Thats nothing. Go to 370 Jay Street and check out the overbloated vermin on the 13th Floor. Most even have dress codes of suits and ties. As far as the subway tunnel versions, they are fed by the filthy disgusting persons who throw their lunch and debris onto the roadway. Although the TA has a policy to place rodenticide in infested areas, the rodents will always come down from the parks and streets as long as they know they will have promotional opportunities in NYCT.
Well, having had some experience with New York rats (we're talking the four legged kind, inter alia) I would say: Try not to worry about it too much. Just pretend its a squirrel, which the "brown rat" rattus rattus closely resembles, having a really bad tail day!
I'm not joking--most local rats will do exactly what that one did--scurry past and completely ignore you.
And yes, they do try to eradicate rats on the system--through poison. This is something that needs to be used sparingly, because throwing poison around carelessly can have unintended consequences.
Rats, like seagulls and cochroaches, tend (at least in the urban environment) to be markers of human presence. They exist in proportion to the amount of uneaten food left lying around.
One unusual feature of rats is the lack of size disparity among fully grown ones. Nearly all adult rats weight about one pound. The reports we've all heard about "rats the size of puppies" stem from a human tendency to exaggerate the size of rats seen in inappropriate locations, including subway stations.
Pete, I'm not kidding. The one I saw was reallly big. I couldn't believe my eyes. I thought as you did until I saw that disgusting creature.
Maybe that's why that cop emptied his 9mm in the tunnel the other day -- SUPER-RAT attack!
Doug aka BMTman
Pass that along to the cop's attorney.
It's more plausible than anything I've heard so far.
Then I've seen very very fluffy one pound rats!
There must be a mutation occurring in the subway because I've seen track rabbits of the size that Sea Beach Man has seen, and they looked like they weighed more than one pound to me ("rattus giganticus").
--Mark
Check out the rats at Chambers St. Huge, I tell you, almost cat-sized.
I am sure there are also IV Rattus Norvegicus out there as well as the common brown variety. These are grey, and can get to be as big as small cats, up to 8 pounds. I saw one of these critters sitting pretty on the top of the third-rail cover at East Broadway last year. An "F" train came and went. Did he care? Not a whit. He was still there after the "F" pulled out.
Wayne
Don't bother escaping to Hartford to avoid the wildlife!!!!
Walking around campus with friend one night, something comes running around by us, and I tought I steeped on it cause I felt a squishy thing under my foot and heard a weird squweak. Didn't get a good look at it, but i though at first it was a loose kitten. Aw man, I hurt a poor little kitty? So we go looking in the bushes. Bam!!! Thing comes running out at full tilt, it's a freaking rat!!! Runs up a gutter drain pipe....
Another time, I'm walking to class. I'm heading down the stairs, and on the other side is a cute little black and white.....skunk. We just passed each other, nothing happend. Little guy was just causally walking around campus on the sidewalk.
Another time, I'm walking home from class at night, and I see one. now, understand that I'm wearing black/gray/white (snow) camo pants, *big* black boots, and a black and white T-shirt (Corrosion of Conformity!!). scared the little guy into a corner and into a ball. I guess he thought I was a huge skunk out to kill him.
I've also had birds and squirrles outside my window working to forward their species.
I was in Penn once when I saw mice (not rats) crawling around the LIRR tracks there. A neighbor near me has a few peacocks. Ever see one of THOSE things FLY? And there are goats up the street too.... All this in suburban Nassau county!
As for rats in the subway? Yeah, they're getting bigger again, though they're still not as big as they were in the 80's...
Wildlife is alive and well in New York City; once while waiting for the '5' at Gun Hill, I distinctly saw the remains of a raccoon that must have wandered into the open cut and succumbed at the hands of a Redbird. Yes, a raccoon in the Bronx; no mistaking that tail. Many exposed lines run in areas that still have parkland and/or garbage dumps. I hate to think what might venture onto the outdoor 'L' tracks.
That's nothing: while biking along the Belt Parkway by Pennsylvania Ave. I was startled by a loud gwaking coming from the foliage. There before me was a huge bird, which I thought was a turkey. After regaining my composure I realized it was a pheasant -- a bird common to the marshlands of the southshore of all of Long Island.
And Canarsie Park is also home to many white-tailed rabbits (seen them too, usually in the spring).
Doug aka BMTman
Before I got promoted and sent to Bed/Stuy I worked in the 111Pct. We had loads of radio runs for racoons in Little Neck & Douglaston (especially by Alley Pond Pk)
Coney Island had a sizable rabbit population when the Dutch settled in the area. That's how it got its name (Konijn Eiland (sp)).
You mean there was a confrontation between rat and F train and the F train came through unscathed? Wow!
Some of those rats think they're as tough as BMT standards. And you know something? They probably are.
Wasn't it a rat in the switch frog that derailed that BMT Standard (#2208) in the Montague Street tunnel way back when? By the way, the BMT Standard took out a big chunk of curtain wall and a few girders, but was otherwise unscathed.
Wayne
What about the rat? I know, I know: duh!!!
I'm not surprised the tunnel sustained more damage than the standard. The only thing that could possibly hurt a BMT standard would have been a Triplex - and even then, it would have been a close fight.
Speaking of the Montague St. tunnel, what's the track arrangement at the Nassau St. turnoff, specifically on the Brooklyn-bound side? I've ridden through that tunnel almost every time I've been to the city in the recent years, but I'm drawing a blank.
[I am sure there are also IV Rattus Norvegicus out there as well as the common brown variety. These are grey, and can get to be as big as small cats, up to 8 pounds.]
No, no, no - it's an urban legend. Regardless of sub-species, rats do not much exceed one pound.
I get the high end of normal Norway rat as 600 grams, about a pound and a third. The "ship rat" kind about half that.
Now I'm sure they can get heavier. My beagle dog has exceeded her normal weight range, but this has not resulted in a beagle the size of a Rottweiler. After a certain point, it becomes a wider beagle, not a bigger beagle.
You can't fool genetics.
[I get the high end of normal Norway rat as 600 grams, about a pound and a third. The "ship rat" kind about half that.
Now I'm sure they can get heavier. My beagle dog has exceeded her normal weight range, but this has not resulted in a beagle the size of a Rottweiler. After a certain point, it becomes a wider beagle, not a bigger beagle.]
Rats have an extremely high metabolic rate that probably prevents them from getting too overweight. Because they normally spend much of their time eating, it would be difficult for them to overeat. AFAIK, experiments with lab rats in which they do become overweight use special high-calorie foods rather than excessive amounts of their normal foods.
I would imagine that rats living in the subway have a somewhat irregular food source and hence are unlikely to exceed normal caloric requirements.
I once saw a rat snuffling around in a display window of one of the popular bakery chains--I won't mention which one, but it was in an underground location viewable by transit users (this was also about 10 years ago).
If anyone (anyrat?) was positioned to be 10 pounds+, this guy was, but he looked normal size to be.
I think exagerations of rat sizes may come from unfamilarity with the animal. Maybe people are mentally comparing them to mice.
When I lived near Prospect Park, I used to see seagulls wheeling around the Parade Grounds whenever a storm was coming--they didn't seem all that big to me. But the first time I saw one standing on the lower roof of an R1 at Coney Island, I was amazed how big it looked. If you had asked me, I would have said "it was as big as a turkey!"
"You Can't fool Genetics" -- Oh Yeah, between all of the yummy chemical wastes and biohazardous matter those things are exposed to, I'll bet their DNA resembles a double helix that has been twisted into a corkscrew. Add to that natural selection which would favor the larger rats, and you can understand how these rats can get so huge.
In Syracuse, one time I saw a raccoon dead on the Interstate (690) IT WAS AS BIG AS A GERMAN SHEPHERD, SO HELP ME
9/9/99
TECHNICALLY,THEY'RE FARE EVADERS !!
Bill Newkirk
TECHNICALLY, [RATS ARE] FARE EVADERS !!
Not so. If the rats are not able to reach the readers to swipe their MetroCards, and the MTA desn't provide a reasonable accomodation (such as having an aide swipe for them) they must ride free.
Besides, they don't ride the trains. (I hope)
Hey, Jeff, the cockroaches ride, so why not the rats.
Might I suggest that the MTA invest in miniature MCs with matching sized swipe-readers and turnstiles. ;-)
That should boost revenues through the roof!
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, they have been known to. I was on a 3 shuttle about 9 AM one Sunday morning (just to ride it) and encountered one of the little beasties snacking on someone's leftover fragment of an Egg McMuffin. Needless to say I headed for the other end of the car in a hurry and boarded the next car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No they're not! they are less than 112 cm tall. Unless the ratio of rat:human in the subway is more than 4:1, then they're all qualified to ride free.
No joke, I saw one once when I worked at the World Trade Center that was huge. I was on one of the sub-level loading docks late one day on a weekend. I saw what I thought was a cat walking along the wall of the loading area. I start to make cat attracting noises (you now pusss pusss noises) when I saw the thing step away from the wall and into the light. It was about 12 inches long with an equally long tail and maybe 6 inches high. Dark grey or light brown. Looked right at me and gave me a look. I took off running for the freight elevator. When it came I told the operator about it and he casually replied "Oh that was just a warf rat, we get a bunch of em down here, especially at night. Eat all the garbage and chew through boxes and stuff. Don't mess with em, they will come after you." I took his word for it.
Now if you want to see a whole bunch of regular TA rats, you have to goto 179th St station on the F line around 2 am on garbage pick up day. There is a garbage room at the North end of the Southbound platform (crews know this place well as it is at the foot of the crew stairs). When the garbage room is opened for pickup, the garbage collectors leave it for a while and then bang on the sides to empty the room of rats. At least 2 dozen rats will come running from inside of the room.
Later,
Chris
First of all, I want to thank you guys for your imput about the rat problem that I eluded to when I saw that creature in the subway last month. However, as you might have noticed, my grammar was less than accurate. What it should have been titled was: "They're Big and they're ugly." I'm happy no one corrected me on that but I was a little ashamed of myself for such blatant misuse of the language. I can tel you guys one thing. I was not putting up some smoke when I described that rat I saw. It was very big and very long.
Leaving garbage bags on the platform at such stations like 23st 6 ave on the F line only makes the problem worse.
Seconds later I saw a big ugly rat scurry past. I mean he was big and ugly and he acted as if I wasn't around.
Compared to some of the things in the NY subway, mere rats are downright benign. It's not trying to steal your wallet, smash your head in, or give you the latest third world disease, for example.
There's really no reason to wipe out rodentia of the NY subway unless they pose a health hazard.
Don't these vermin have rabies? I see these creatures at Bedford Park Blvd on the D line, and they are big, ugly and mean.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
No, the only creatures in any numbers with rabies in this area (but not NYC or LI) were raccoons, but those have pretty much cycled themselves out.
And the only reason for the rabies scare in raccoons was because some rocket-scientist hunters is WV, having hunted out most of the local population, imported some specimens from FL, where rabies is an ongoing problem. From WV, the disease slowly spread through the northeast.
Occasionally, a bat shows up with rabies, but this is exceedingly rare. AFAIK there has been no significant rabies in area rodents since WWII or before.
Bubonic plague is carried by rats.
To be more exact, bubonic plague is carried by fleas which live on rats.
The black death in Europe was a human variety which was transmitted by fleas who used ratty transit to get from place to place.
Plenty of (o)possums on Staten Island, a lot of them traffic casualties.
Didn't you know? Rats are the official mascot of the NYC subway system... :-)
subfan
Subfan: That's the funniest thing I've heard this week. I'm still laughing but if you've seen them you've got to admit they are hideous and scary.
They are kind of ugly, but scary? Not really, unless you aren't expecting them.
subfan (all lowercase)
Since I moved out of NYC two years ago - I had sort of forgotten about the rats. The last time I was in town I was railfanning and saw a hefty rodent scurring along. I wish something could be done to control the rat population on the system. Hopefully, those passengers that are habitual litterbugs will wise up one day.
Wayne
my question is has the TA, the mayor or anyone else in charge ever thought about eradicating this problem?
Yes, they all have, but until New Yawkers stop littering, the rats will continue to feast.
They actually serve another purpose - they have become unofficial watchdogs of the system, keeping unauthorized humans off the tracks ;)
--Mark
well lets see the more important way to eliminate the rat population in the subways is for the human slobs who EAT in the subway and then disgard what remains on the platforms or on subway car seats and floors, he the subway riders literally feed them thats why its so hard to rid the place of them.
Eating by subway riders should be BANNED would be a way to reduce not eliminate the rodent population.
Anthony: I think it's a great idea. You know it wouldn't take much in the way of willpower to forego putting something in your mouth from the period of 15 minutes to an hour, but at the same time there is going to have to be a concerted effort from the powers that be to put into effect a rat abating program, I know there was not the garbage or the rat problem when I moved out of New York 45 years ago.
There have been rats in the system (and in the City--and in the 'burbs too, for that matter) for as long as I can remember.
I recall the Daily News giving out free packets of Warfarin in Brooklyn around 1960.
If you're at all interested in the adaptation of different species to their surroundings, I observe that rats in the single family house areas I'm familiar with tend to live more as they would in the wild--actually building nests and burrows outdoors, preferably (for both them and us) in undeveloped land or lightly used parkland.
Their numbers seem way less than in many city areas--they don't get as much residential stuff and they have to compete with other critters for the other goodies--muskrats, birds and the no-nonsense raccoons and 'possums for park leavings, and cats and raccoons for the that suburban commercial cornucopia--the Dempster Dumpster.
There has been some discussion here regarding the existence of a subway station at 76 St and Pitkin Av so last week when I was in that neck of the woods I did some reconnoitering. I took the A train to Grant Av Station and got onboard the Shoe Leather Express. There is a noticible hump on Pitkin Av that extends east to Elderts Lane. The hump at Grant is explained by the yard leads from Pitkin Yard to Grant Avenue which pass over the four main tracks (A tks) of the Fulton Street Subway. I would venture a guess judging from the terrain that these tracks or at least the trackways extend about one block further east to Elderts Lane where Pitkin Av takes a noticible dip. East of this point there are no signs of any construction or ventilation shafts or gradings in the sidewalk. At 76 Street and Pitkin Av there is no provision for any stairways and if they were to be built it would be necessary to take over portions of homeowners property to do so. Since all these homes seem post war (WWII) I would think that some sort of provision would have been made in the property line when these houses were built. There is a ventilation shaft in the middle of Conduit Blvd between Grant Av and Sheridan Av but this is explained by the aforementioned yard leads. Also it seems that the Pitkin Yard has suffered the ignominy or having a parking lot consructed over at least part of the yard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
New Pictures come to the Subway Section of TransiTALK check it out!
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
Trevor
Today I dropped a co-worker off at E.NY LIRR and looked up at the Atlantic Av station. There were large wooden boards along the whole Canarsie bound platform, extending the whole length of the platform. Anyone knows what it is and what they're doing? I assume it has something to do with the closing of one of the 2 parallel els that the "L" uses.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try this color quiz
I think they are removing the asbestos-laden roofing material, similar to the way they did it at Brighton Beach and Ocean Pkwy. The MTA got into a LOT of trouble for the haphazard way they removed these materials from other BMT stations along the M line a few years back.
Frowm what I hear, the Sneideker Ave part of the Canarsie el is slated to be demolished. I don't know if the present 4 track segment will be retained. It should, so it can be used as a terminal if need be.
Why would there be any need to use it as a terminal? The ENY yard is right there, so there should never be any problems with train storage.
subfan
The yard may be there, but you still need a place to turn equipment back in case of construction or some emergency service disruption.
As far as I know, when all is said and done, Atlantic Av will go from 6 tracks to 2. That doesn't leave much space for any kind of facility to turn back equipment. Whatever the case maybe, a crossover should be built for any necessary turning of equipment as is to accomodate moves going to and from ENY Yard.
-Stef
Atlantic Ave is used as a terminal during construction projects on the Canarsie line when a one-track shuttle is needed. Keeping the option of having a 4 track station would be a smart idea.
If they ever have the old n shortline again.
Jeff, what you see there is replacement of the southbound track. It must be kept in mind that the Canarsie Atlantic Ave. station is one of the oldest in-use el structures (it's almost a century old!). I believe the same situation will be done to the current southbound track, K1, once P1 is completed (while the demolition of the eastern-most platforms commences).
Regarding the LIRR East NY station: I think it would be advantageous -- but of course too expansive -- to have an elevator/stairway that would physically connect the Canarsie line to the LIRR. Currently, to go from either station you have to wind down the maze of staircases from the "L" to reach the street (desolate even in the daytime) which then must be crossed to enter the LIRR station. If the MTA made a connection between the two I think more passengers would be inclined to use the Eas NY station and thusly the Canarsie Atlantic Ave. station in return.
Doug aka BMTman
I work near the Gates Av station (still can't find a remnant of the Lex) on the "J" and live on L.I. Although I usually drive (or motorcycle) to work, when I do take the train I take the LIRR to ENY and walk to Bway Junc since I'm on the North side of the LIRR. Coming back, when I get off the J at Bway Junc I only take the "L" to Atlantic if I see one waiting there or entering the station. Gives me great running exercize!!
P.S. I hate the crossover tunnel at ENY even with an off duty!!! (but at least I see the "Trains to Rockaways" tiles spoke about in an earlier thread)
Atlantic Avenue (L) was rebuilt under the dual contracts and the current version you see dates from approximately 1916-1917. The original station structure is gone.
Wayne
Doesn't the Sneideker Ave. portion (the platform that now is used by the Manhattan bound L and has the outside track removed) date to the opening date of the Canarsie el in 1906?
At least part of it apparently goes back even further, to Kings County Elevated days (original Fulton Street Line).
The structure is such an amalgam of parts, that even TA engineers are not supposed to be sure what members of made of what material (cast iron vs. steel) or the exact dating of certain on the components.
It was improved in the Dual Contract era.
K'Siva V'Chasima Tova! A happy and healthy new year to you all!
And to you!!
Is it Rosh Hashanah already?? Happy and healthy New Year to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Rosh Hashanah begins Friday night at sundown. I'll be at Monmouth Reform Temple in Tinton Falls, NJ, singing L'ma'ancha and all the rest. Cantor's got me singing bass this year since we got a very good new tenor - it's worse than learning it for the first time since I keep trying to sing the tenor line out of habit. But it makes for a well-balanced sound that hopefully the congregation will appreciate.
L'shanah tovah!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
May all of my friends have a happy and sweet New Year.
L'shana tova techatevu v'techatemu, l'alter, l'chaim tovim, uL'shalom.
subfan
May you be inscribed in the Book of Life for another year.
--Mark
Well I once again survived the drive from Boston to LI... very heavy rain all along the way. Even called in an accident on the Merritt Parkway to the "WCBS Traffic Center."
So this evening is 5760? I wonder if we'll have Y5.760K problems?
The very same to you, my friend . We all think of this wish at each time every year. The good lord holds our destiny in his hands. Maybe that's how we all got to be "subway -nuts"
Chuck Greene
A happy and prosperous 5760 from a Presbyterian! (Hey, not everybody's got a Y2K problem!)
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Even though this site is not run by the MTA it could at least have some links to the MTA complaint department. This site is high on search engine results. I found it via "NYC subway complaints".
Suggestion: Add some useful links for MTA feedback and contacts.
They don't HAVE a complaint dept that is interested in hearing complaints. Nor is it on the internet. For that matter, there are no email addresses at all on the MTA's web site. You waana complain, you'll have to write snail mail.
-Hank
SMY, It might be something to put in your letter, i.e. many in the TA have email access, so why not put one on their Web site ?
BWT, Their MC Prod. Devel. answers e-mail.
Also many of the "privates" have web sites (but no e-mail addresses either), my company doesn't YET have a Web site, but does have a e-mail address "info@qsbus.com". This AM the individual who reads the e-mail was dealing with a phone customer complaint when I went by.
Mr t__:^)
For that matter, there are no email addresses at all on the MTA's web site. You waana complain, you'll have to write snail mail.
But there's a good reason for this. All snail mail complaints are specially filed as they are received.
They tried using this same method for e-mail complaints, but it got too expensive to keep throwing those hard drives in the trash.
"They don't HAVE a complaint dept that is interested in hearing complaints"
Hank, I have to humbly dis-agree with you here. Back in 1994 or 1995, a Brooklyn gentleman complained about door chimes being too loud on R-46 & R-68 cars. His complaint was fowarded to the Assistant Cheif Mechanical Officer. He passed the complaint to me. I was dispatched with a db meter and told to get data. I prepared a marvelous 'study' on the subject. I submitted it to the ACMO and thought that should be the end of it. However, this person still persists, 5 years later. From what I was told, 'they' were trying to satisfy this person who was writing letters every few months. Is short, they jump through hoops or should I say, they make us jump through hoops to answer these complaints.
As long as those door chimes are in tune, I wouldn't complain. Even then, I would just deal with it.
If you have a Complaint you can mail it to Transit Headquarters which you will be lucky to get an answer or you can call Costomer services.
I think the reason why there aren't any links has been pretty well covered (there's nothing to link to). But there's also the fact that I do not want to have this site become a front-end for that of the MTA, nor do I want to spend my time handling things that they should handle themselves. This includes things like timetables, fare information, handicapped accessibility, how to get somewhere, and general use of the subway/bus system inquiries (and believe me I get a ton of these despite disclaimers that we aren't the TA).
I do, however, index some pages from the Official MTA site in nycsubway.org's internal search engine, but when these are found in response to a query they are clearly maked as offsite links.
Besides, I could spend forever providing links to all sorts of points at the Official MTA site so people who come here could find things easier but do you think the MTA webmaster would return the courtesy by linking to us under any circumstances? I am pretty sure he's been told not to!
-Dave
OK try this one. http://home.earthlink.net/~straphangers/statesubs99.html
It is the straphanger's association. I believe strongly in writing complaints to destinations over the TA, such as the EEOC or OSHA then let the crap trickle down through the ranks where ever possible. This site also has the superintendant's numbers which don't help in winning grievances but sure are a lot of fun. Unfortunately they are now staffed with answering machine some of the time so good luck with your bad luck.
I dunno if this is the first day, or if I just hadn't been paying attention earlier in the week, but the R33 Singles are back on the flushing line. Took 9316 southbound from HP Ave this morning.
I guess now that's its September the TA is putting these air-conditionless cars back in service.
They weren't there last week, they are there now, third car from the Flushing end (easy only one with the windows open >G<).
I think that they are only supposed to be there when school is in.
WHAT???? School has nothing to do with those cars being in or out of service. They are usually taken out of service during the summer so the TA can brag that they have a 100% fleet of air conditoned cars. Really though, They get HOT. They are a group of 40 single unit, Un-air conditioned cars built in 1964 to make up the eleventh car on Flushing (Worlds Fair) trains. 39 are still in everyday service (9307-9345) And one has been in the museum (9306) since 1976.
I heard that the MTA thought that enough people stop riding the subway when school ends that that's when they schedule the removal of those cars (which should have been scrapped in the 80s!!!). I don't think that a full carload per train stops riding though.
9/9/99
Since Labor day is considered the end of summer,maybe the T.A. uses this date to reintroduce the freonless wonders back after a short hibernation. By the way,since SEPTA's "Almond Joy" cars are not running (as per past posts),the R-33's give those avante garde railfans a rush hearing those roaring axiflow fans and open storm track noise.
Bill Newkirk
While I'm as nostalgic as the next railfan about the subway system of the past, open storm doors and roarng fans in oppressively hot subway tunnels is something I'd rather not re-live.
LOL
AMEN!!! The R-33 should have had all their propulsion equipment removed and become trailers to fit the A/C, or they should have suffered their HORRIBLE DEATH back in the 80s. Except for the museum car. Single cars are great for the museum and work service and all.
Last evening, on the way home, I saw a #3 train with a westchester yard (I think) R62A. It was from a different number series, and had a yellow stripe as opposed to the blue stripe with the orange diamond. It was car #1917, and when I saw it it was third from the north on a S/B train.
I thought that things were mostly tight only on the B division..
That is because not long ago Westchester gave a number of R62As (#1901 to #1925 (?), excluding #1909 [Wrecked in '96]), and that control of GCT "S" was transferred over to Livonia, probably because the #6 is linking its R62As into five car sets. Does anyone have the exact number of R62As sent over into Livonia from Pelham (I think 24, because I did see a #1922 running on the 6 with a yellow stripe as late as Sep '98)???
They only gave up Cars 1901 to 1915. 1916 to 1925 where always on the No.3 Line.
[ They only gave up Cars 1901 to 1915. 1916 to 1925 where always on the
No.3 Line. ]
Then why do they have yellow stripes?
Ok I'll double check but I know I seen 1921 in a blue strip.
It's entirely possible they haven't gotten round to changing them yet.
Wayne
Hi folks, The correct amount of 1900s were from pelhams R62A roster was this: 1651-1919. 1900-1919 were on the 6 line. for 4 years. 1920 and up stayed on the 3 line. 1916-1919 went back to the 3 last year. and 1901-1915 went back in july. Excluding 1900 and 1909.
I talked to an engineer about this GN619 some more, and here's what I found out:
1) Basically, it means they need to operate as if they were in Door Bypass mode. The notice tells them that crews are to _PHYSICALLY_ check each door on the consist (this implies _both sides_!), before leaving each station.
That would certainly explain why 507 was so late on Tuesday morning -- the crews were walking to each door and physically checking that they were fully closed and locked.
I don't think that anyone got dragged to prompt this, but that there were a couple of incidents where trains left the station with a door open.
Also, on my train this morning (509 as usual), there was a door that was spontaneously opening enroute! then, it failed in the opposite way, where although it was closed, it wouldn't clear the door line, so they crew needed to actually go into door bypass mode (after disabling that door).
Last night, half of the door light panels on the outside of the cars were not functioning. (i.e. no indication of open, closed or closing state whatsoever -- dark panels).
What a bunch of junk. And the conductor this morning went over to the computer, to try and figure out what was wrong with the door, and all it could do was spit out some nonsense numerical error code.
Sounds like these trains are running Windows to me.
You know, with all the problems of this new fleet - the LIRR had better solve them *fast*. If anything, these cars sound like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
BTW - Vapor is apparently proud of the door systems on these new cars, enough to brag about it on their web site.
I'm at a loss to understand WHAT is so complex about a door system that a computer is eeded in the first place...
[ You know, with all the problems of this new fleet - the LIRR had
better solve them *fast*. If anything, these cars sound like a lawsuit
waiting to happen. ]
Who would be sueing who? If it was against the LIRR, the only plaintiff that makes sense is a class action by LIRR riders. If that were viable, it would have happened long before this mess.
LIRR could sue Kawasaki, as I assume they're the principal contractor. But that would really only cover actual defects -- the overall design silliness is probably due to LIRR specifications.
[ BTW - Vapor is apparently proud of the door systems on these new cars,
enough to brag about it on their web site. ]
I didn't see any brag -- their opening page shows a R110B, but no other NYC area cars. The LIRR bilevels are listed in "Recent Projects", but it didn't seem like bragging. Anyways, from the way it's listed there, it seems like they are just using vapor's "off the shelf" Electric overhead linear overhead/ sliding pocket door operator.
[ I'm at a loss to understand WHAT is so complex about a door system
that a computer is eeded in the first place... ]
That's the key question -- I would suppose that the Vapor product isn't the problem here. It has "electronic sensors and controls", but no computers. My guess is the main computer on each car is controlling the doorsets, etc.
I think the _idea_ is to have an integrated diagnostic system, where you can go to see what's going on with all systems on the car, from HVAC to lighting to information (PA/displays) to doors to braking and suspension, etc. In practice, these systems always seem to add so much additional and needless complexity that they cause more problems than they solve. In addition, the additional complexity makes it impossible for crews to fix or even understand what the problems are. Let's face it -- if you can't fix a problem by tearing off a piece of an advertisement and sticking it somewhere, it's not gonna be fixed by the crews.
I'm thinking more of this scenario:
Packed train. People standing in the doorway and everything. Doors open. Someone falls out. Gets killed / or looses a limb. That's a few million dollars right there, and probbly pretty easy too cause there's no reason this equipment should be in serivce with these problems.
oh no, my nightmare has come true.
i was sitting on a N train (no specific model, just had a LCD for the side signs) when suddenly the train stopped. I looked up and the LCD had the blue screen of death. The conductor had to reboot the train and i watched as it booted up and it ran the train control program. Then the train started up normally. This is really scary, a train that runs Windows.
Hmm. Sounds distinctly like a trip on LIRR 605 or 660 during the early runs with the FL9ACs. Cars go dark, air shuts off, and we just coast along. . . Conversation between Engineer and Mechanic goes something like "Lost speed again and we're back at idle. Let's try a reboot". A minute or so later engines spin up, lights come on, air comes on, and we start accelerating again.
Come to think of it this was a daily experience. Maybe the crew just didn't like how their session of "Doom" was going. . .
Anyone got a REALLY BIG "Intel Inside' sticker? About 100 of them should cover the new fleet :)
This seems to be very strange, but since I don't ride the #3 often, I haven't seen #1978 (my birth year) yet, but if I see it, I will try to get into that car....
Has anyone ever thought of boarding a car # corresponding to their birth year?
Nick
When the R-46s were first delivered, I used to try to find car 515, my birthdate.
--Mark
[ When the R-46s were first delivered, I used to try to find car 515, my
birthdate. ]
Wow, then you're 1484 years old!
Rim shot!!
Which line could I expect to find #1956 on this fall?
...and I don't look a day over 678, either!! :)
--Mark
Never even crossed my mind. Don't think there are cars with numbers that low anyway!!!
Yes, I did when they were new. When the R-62A's were delivered they pretty much went to the #1 line first then to their current assignments - so the #1 always had the newest R-62A's. I immediately searched for #1965 (my birth year) and with the R-62's I also looked for #1546 which was the number the building that I lived in at the time. It took me a long time to see bus #1546 (1981 GMC RTS - I believe it was at Jamaica depot originally???) because that was a NYCTA bus and I lived in MABSTOA territory.
Wayne
I rode an R-32 whose number is my phone extension, this morning. Does that count?
David
I once operated my Birth Year car 1942. I also operated my son's birth year car 1982 and the most important car of them all car 2000. Unfortanitly car 2000 was my 3th south motor heading to New Lots Ave. I worked on the No.3 Line when I was a rookie. They alway had me work the No.3and No.4 Lines for some reason as a Extra person.
I have seen #1954, the R62A that carries my birth year, several times but have never ridden on it. It always seems to be pulling into Chambers Street when my camera is either out of reach or when I get up to it, it pulls away. Maybe she's shy.
One time I saw the following in one consist: #1954 (my birth year), #1922 (my mother's birth year), #1914 (my father's birth year) and #1972 (the year I graduated from high school). This was while #1901 thru #1920 were still on the #3 (as they currently are). I thought that to be quite a coincidence.
#1942 has some of the loudest wheels I have ever heard on ANY subway car, and #1992's door chime has its tones reversed.
The only ones I have never seen (in the "years-of-our-lives" series) are #1932 and #1936.
Wayne
I haven't heard any reversed door chimes. Strange pitches, yes, but not reversed.
You're lucky! Not only have I never seen 1982 (my birth year), I have never seen 1944, 1951 or 2000 (same order as for you). Will car #2000 be waiting at Times Square to pick up those who hang out there this year? I think they should use a "New Year" car every year. This year, all the cars in the special train should be in the 2000 series and should have temporary LCD displays to show that they are Y2K compliant.
I guess nobody really cares, but I reversed my parents' birth year. My father is the older one.
If my Grandma Edna was still alive (she died in 1995), her car would be over on the #6 line - #1898.
Wayne
How ironic. 1932 and 1936 just happen to be my dad and mom's birth years, respectively. Your grandmother lived to be 97? God bless her. I'd sign a contract for that right now.
Oh, for those of you hoping for a #1909...Too bad you are out of luck...She's probably dead anyway.
By the way 1909 was the first year that our (disliked) Lincoln Head cent/penny came into the world.
Nick C
I hate how coins would have Liberty and Indian Heads, and now they just replaced them with faces just like the bills. BORING. Only the Quarter should maintain the Washington head (and I guess we should keep Jefferson too) because I hope the $1 bill ends circulation.
I am interested in getting a job with revenue dept as collecting agent.
who do I call ? who do I see ? where do I write?
you help will be appriciated Thanks.
Okay normally I don,t belive what what i hear but rather see it. but this is an exception. A frien of mine said she was waiting at 96th st. on west side one late night when a train on th opposite platform rooled in, stopped and then left she described the train as silver with a blue interior . iknow thatis not a 62,62a or a 110a so what is it could it be? some one please help me out on this .
Some of the 110's have blue plastic seats, as well as yellow, red and green.
As far as I know theres no R 142 on the Road. Your friend however may have seen the Track Geometry car which is silver and blue on the outside. Most likely it was heading to 207 Street Yard. Also it is commen to see a TG car on the IRT.
There are no green seats on the R-110a only on the R-110b.
i was riding a brooklyn bound B train earlier this week from w 4thst to 36st in brooklyn when the conductor announced that this B train will make express stops after 9thave (meaning 62nd st was the next stop after 9thave) is this new a b bklyn express?? he also announced there was a b right behind his making all local stops to stilwell and sure enough while i was waiting for my R connection the B pulled into 36st .. it just seemed kind of odd..
Sounds like there was a delay on the B line and they sent it express to make up some lost time. The B was running on the Sea Beach express tracks all this week. I finally got to ride one. I found it funny that it took the same amount of time from Pacific St. on a B SeaBeach exp than it takes a normal N going local.
no, they do this alot for the N where sometimes they will send the 1st N train making 4 stops on the Sea Beach Line (8th Ave, New Utrect, Kings Highway, Stilwell Ave), the 2nd either making NO stops to CI or ALL stops to CI. They have dones this a few times. I was wondering why 8th ave is considered a express stop. does anybody know this?
laterz
blackdevl
I remember working the N one day. My train arrived at Stillwell 10 minutes late. The following train was right behind. The dispatcher gave me a skip: Kings Highway, New Utrect and 59. Then regular.
i also remember on this trip that while travelling over the manhattan bridge the conductor came into my car and opened the windows since the a/c failed.. is this a common problem on these r-68 cars??? i think they are usually dependable...theyre usually like an ice box..
Here's alist of the R-16 replacement roll signs from 1969. First the route then the route color;
SS Shuttle -green
S Special - White
TT West End Local - dark blue
RR Broadway Local - green
RR via Nassau Street - Green
QJ via Nassau Street - black
QB Broadway via Bridge - Red
N Broadway Express - yellow/buff
MM Sixth Av Local - green
M Express via Nassau St - light blue
LL Fourteenth Street Line - black
KK Sixth Av Local - dark blue
JJ Nassau St Local orange
HH Rockaway Local - red
GG Bklyn Queens Local - green
F Express via Sixth Av - violet
EE Broadway Local - orange
E Express via Eighth Av - light blue
D Sixth Av Express - orange
CC Eighth Av Local - green
B via Sixth Avenue - black
AA Eighth Av Local - violet
A Eighth Av Express - dark blue
Say this much for the subway after Chrystie Street, it may have been mixed up but it sure was colorful.
Note that the MM never ran as such. A few trains did run in the late am rush from 57/6 to Metropolitan (Myrtle) but they carried KK signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I loved those colorful signs. Sure made for a more interesting looking map. Why did they stop using those colors? Too confusing?
Much. Every line had it's own color back then (the dark ages)
Now, the lines are grouped into colors by where they run in Manhattan, so all the trunk lines have a single color.
-Hank
Chris; They stopped using different colors for each line when they issued the Diamond Jubilee Edition of the Subway Map in June of 1979.
At that time all lines were colored coded by the Manhattan mainline of operation, with one or two exceptions. This is the system they have today were say all 6 Av trains are orange, all Lexington dark green etc.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have a copy of said route sign. If anyone has a scanner or any other method, I would be happy to send it to them so it could be posted.
I would love to buy that roll sign from you!
E-mail me and let me know your thoughts. It won't come cheap as I have never seen one of these anywhere else.
Thanks,
Charles
We have many of those. I'm interested in the original numbered signs. Very near impossible to get. We have a reproduction of the end signs to compliment the original we have preserved in the archives at TMNY. But we only the end route. All the other signs we have installed currently are B/W from R-32's. They look OK in the destination slot. But we really need BMT numbers for the sides.
There is a BMT number curtain which has been scanned on Joe Korman's website. It has all subway route markings, but none of the el routes.
Fred; aka Mr Sea Beach,while researching an answer to another question I came accross the following item that might be of interest.
On June 14,1934 the experimental five section articulated "Green Hornet" was tested on the express tracks of the Sea Beach Line. It reached a top speed of 54 mph westbound and 60 mph eastbound. In those days "rapid transit" meant something. The R-68's should be ashamed to operate over the same line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird R33: Larry--if you can you must tell me more about this. Believe it or not I was a Green Hornet fan when I was a kid. I used to see Saturday serials at the movies in the late 40's and early 50's, and I loved the Green Hornet. That a Green Hornet is tied up with my favorite train is really neat. If you have any other info on it, tidbit me a little at a time as so not to take up too much space. How long did the GH run and why did it come to an end? Very fascinating.
The Green Hornet's fate was sealed because it was made largely of aluminum. It was discovered and patriotically dismantled for the war effort during WWII.
At just about the same time the Green Hornet was delivered from Pullman, Budd's entry, popularly called the Zephyr, was delivered.
The Zephyr was Budd's entry to show off the advantages of stainless steel construction.
Despite a flirtation with stainless (the R11) the City turned its back on this useful construction material until the R32, due to its slavish insistence on using The Absolute Low Bidder.
Paul: Thanks. Was the Green Hornet really a deep green and why was it called by that name? Are there any pictures available and if they are can they be found in any large library besides those in NY?
Well, it was before my time and I've never seen a color picture, but I udnerstand it was quite green.
It was nick-named for the radio show--I don't know how careful the BMT was or was not to avoid using the name "officially."
You can see a picture on this site.
You can find many fine pictures of the "Hornet" in James C. Greller's "Subway Cars of the BMT," which Barnes & Noble (www.bn.com) claims to have in stock at the discounted price of $27 and change (plus shipping).
Unless he has changed his views in recent years, I think it would be fair to say that Jimmy Greller shares my view that the effect on progressive transit of the NYC takeover of the BMT in 1940 bore certain similarities to the effect on civilization of the sacking of Rome by the Visigoth Alaric in 410, and his book reflects this view with an excellent and admiring illustrated history of BMT subway car design.
Fred: Here's a short history of the "Green Hornet" rather freely adopted from an article by Bernie Linder in the NYD Bulletin of Apr 95.
The BMT sought to develope lightweight metal trains that could operate both in the subway and on the el structures. The Pullman Company (not yet Pullman-Standard) built the "Green Hornet" aka"The Blimp". Edward G Budd Company of Philadelphia built the "Zephyr." The Clark Equiptment Company built the "Bluebird."
The"Green Hornet" came first arriving at the 38 Street Dock in Brooklyn at 10 PM on May 14,1934 and was towed by loco #6 to Coney Island Yard on May 16,1934. It was 170 feet long and had five sections numbered 7000-8000-9000-8001-7001 and was renumbered 7003A-B-C-B1-A1 in 1937. It had two Westinghouse 70 HP motors on each of the six trucks.
The exterior was in two shades of green with aluminum color roof and underframe. The interior was painted blue with brown leather seats and the ceiling had a cream tint.
The train was exhibited at Coney Island shops on May 24,1934 and at Park Row June 19 and 20,1934.
It entered regular service on the Fulton Street El on July 23,1934 and ran there until unification on June 12,1940 after which it was transfered to the Franklin Av Shuttle.It failed in service on February 6,1941 and was sidelined at Coney Island obstensibly to await couplers to enable it to operate with the Multis. With the War on this was not to be. A war department inspector noticed it there and the unit was removed from the 36 Street Yard on Aug 30 and 31 and Sep 1,1943. It was scrapped in September 1943 and the aluminum was used in airplane construction.
I have seen color photos of both the Zephyr and the Bluebird but not one of the "Green Hornet."
Larry,RedbirdR33
A war department inspector noticed [the Green Hornet] there and the unit was removed from the 36 Street Yard on Aug 30 and 31 and Sep 1,1943. It was scrapped in September 1943 and the aluminum was used in airplane construction.
Amazing to think how far World War II reached into ordinary life that an almost brand-new train could be snapped up by a roving government agent "for the war effort."
Of course, I was born after the war but I still have memories of how fascinated by parents were years later that they could just walk into a grocery store and buy all the butter they wanted.
I recall reading that the government needed rubber so they asked for people to turn in old tires. Overnight tires dissappeared from vacant lots and junkyards. Gasoline rationing also gave new life to many ner do well streetcar and rail lines as well as the excursion boat trade.Meatless Mondays and other privations however were nothing compared to what the boys were going through in the foxholes on Guadacanal.
Its always hard to hear of a classic subway unit being sent to the scrap heap but the Green Hornet went off to do her part to defend her country as did nearly 12 million courageous men and women. A goodly number of whom never did come home.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There's a picture (black & White) of a Green Hornet on pg 65 of "The Subway" by Stan Fischler.
9/11/99
My question on the Green Hornet is has anybody seen a color photograph of this unique trainset ?
Bill Newkirk
I hate to say it, but the term "rapid transit" in New York has almost become an oxymoron.
WILL THE MTA BUILD THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY?
if everyone who rode the Lexington Avenue subway would open their mouths write to their representatives to express their feelings on the subject possibly something will get done. The little bit of apathy shown at MTA meetings by the public won't do squat ..
It isn't just the Lex riders who would benefit from a full system. How about Queens Line to East Midtown and Lower Manhattan riders, who now must transfer or go all the way to 8th Avenue before heading Downtown? Or Brooklyn riders who have to swing all the way across Houston or 14th Steet, before heading north, then back east again?
WILL THE MTA BUILD THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY?
9/9/99
Probably when R-68's grow trolley poles !
Bill Newkirk
I just got used to an R17 with a trolley pole, Imagine a R68 at Shoreline... Don't thing the 75footer would make that curve without moving a tree or too...
Brought a great picture to mind....>G<
Ok. I wonder who'd want to bring one of those things up? Having a 67' footer (you know the AB Standard) wasn't exactly easy in getting around parts of Branford. Can you imaging the havoc an R68 would play on Shoreline's Rails??? It sounds like we'll need to ease out the curves at Branford to accomodate an R68 (or any other 75 footer for that matter).
-Stef
Yeah, I was just hanging out on the roof of my favorite redbird on Monday as a matter of fact, chopping off the silver paint. She looks naked without silver paint on the roof. I never imagined sitting next to a trolley pole. The trolley pole is not heavy and I certainly got a thrill holding it in my hand. Now if there had been 600 volts going through it, I'd be fried pork! Isn't that a scary thought?
-Stef
Has the Standard ridden the route at Branford? When I was there (recently) it was just sitting in the back by the buses with no trolley pole on it. I didn't think it was being used yet. Will it be used during the fall in NY weekend??
Not as far as I know,I have never seen it with a pole, you might want to ask Jeff H the same question, I am not as active lately,( stationed in Florida)
It's ironic that the Standard doesn't have a trolley pole yet. BMT Standards were (as far as I can recall) the only NYC subway cars that ever used trolley poles in service, though not 2775.
Are the 5 Standards listed in the nycsubway.org roster the only known cars left? No yard offices, diners, etc.?
I note there's no example of a 2500 series (last ACF with the unusual vents) or a 2800 (only unrebuilt Pressed Steel Standards).
The three I saw on the Coney Isl Tour recently still a lot of work before they go anywhere on their own power.
Mr t__:^)
An R-68 at the Shore Line Trolley Museum? Ugh. I don't think so.
However, for what it is worth, in terms of long-term collections
planning, we have identified the R-62 as a car we'd likely want
to acquire in several decades.
As for AB 2775: It came in the mid-1980s after languishing for
many years in New York. It never had trolley poles, although
some of the 2300s did when they were being tested. In fact, as
far as we can tell, it was never operated as a single car, although
it was delivered to do so (evidence such as double-ended controls
and a replacement tail-light bulb on the "blind" end which was
stamped NYM, and blanked-off wiring for non-MUDC door controls)
The car made, as far as I know, only one trip down the Branford
mainline, on the day of its delivery. The oddball MCM group
under the car was always troublesome, and I believe several
pieces of wood were necessary to coax the car to take power.
The little single-truck Montreal Shunter was used as the Tower
of Power, believe it or not.
2775 will not be used in the Autumn in New York event this year,
although if visitors wish to view the interior of the car, we
will have tour guides available to show it. Ditto for the SI car.
Well Jeff, let me say this: I can recall no time where the AB has ridden the entire line. My mentor, Jeff H., had a bit to say about the AB. It actually operated under it's own power, from the time it was delivered to Branford (about 1980). The car, which had no pole to take power, was wired to a work car which supplied 600 volts to get it to roll. It hasn't rolled much since then. It's chances of rolling under it's own power is slim at this point since the car's traction motors were flooded back in 1992. I don't know if and when the AB will get it's mechanical repairs.
So the answer to your question is the car won't be rolling for Autumn in NY event.
-Stef
2775 does have a fresh coat of paint on it, although I saw some perforation in a few spots back in July of 1995.
Well, the car needs some cosmetic work again since the side of the car body is cracking. Time to get out the bondo again!!!!
The car won't be truly protected from the elements until she's gets a spot on the inside of a barn.
-Stef
[ I just got used to an R17 with a trolley pole, Imagine a R68 at
Shoreline... Don't thing the 75footer would make that curve without
moving a tree or too... ]
Hey, if the TA retires cares based solely on MDBF, the 68's can be the first to go..
I think they'd go down the line OK (I think that's the curve you're talking about), but I think that the only barn that they could get into (without involving jacks and/or cranes) would be the Quonset barn, #1 (the middle track, which is usually empty, and the first part of the barn tours.).
I can see the tours now: This car was built in 1989 for the NYC subway system, by a group of French railcar manufacturing concerns. They ran for only 15 years, because they were so unreliable. During their tenure, they earned the nicknames "Dumb Blond", and "Les ****cans" among new yorkers.
hehe..
Not to mention slowpokes, hippos, beached whales, etc.
When pigs fly!
Its time to show up, boys. Everyone wants this thing. My presence is subject to wife and children, but I'll try to be there this Wednesday. Never, ever to people who are in FAVOR of something show up at a public hearing. Why not a first time? I say do the orignial deal, LIRR to GCT, and a full length Second Ave with connections to Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens.
Larry, Could you please repeat the time & place for the Wed. hearing ?
I'll E-mail from the office tomarrow (kid's first day of school today), but it starts Wednesday @ 6 p.m. with the list of commentors closed at 8 p.m. I believe it is up at MTA headquarters.
The public hearing starts at 6:00 p.m., with the speaking list closed at 8:00 p.m., at 347 Madison Avenue, 6th Floor (MTA Headquarters).
Thanks for the f/u Larry.
Mr t__:^)
I thought about showing up with presentation boards showing NYC's low level of transportation spending and high taxes, combined with the high spending on the two winners. But I found out that printing graphs at a reasonable size costs $90 a pop. I'll ask my wife if I can go, and my boss if I can use the presentation boards I produced for the office, but I doubt he'll let me use them to express my own opinion.
9/9/99
A motorman (oops! I mean train operator) friend of mine told me there is one train of R-40 slants on the D. He says because of a car shortage one train is borrowed off the Q , runs Saturday and Sunday and early Monday returns to the Q. Is the car shortage cause by the
R-68 unitizing program ?
Bill Newkirk
P.S. A railfan riding a slant 40 (D) sits down at Concurse-205th St looking like Johnny Weismuller and exits at Coney Island/Stillwell looking like the hunchback of Notre Dame !! Unique seats !!
And a TRUE railfan only knows one place in a Slant R40 and that is at the front window. No need to sit down with THAT picture window.
Wayne
When they 1rst came out in the late 60's the only real place to be on them was between cars with that long walkway with the railing but then they started locking the doors. Their railfan window is great for toddlers. The best railfan window of course was on the standards 'cause they opened and the wind was like being on a motorcycle
I have lived 50+ years in Sheepshead Bay on the
Brighton Line. I rode the standards regularly, but
it's funny that I don't remember them so much as
front window heaven. As a front window rider, I
remember more the IRT's 7000 series cars as coming
close to blowing my head off my shoulders. But
while I'm writing this, I also remember riding
between Prospect Park and Seventh Avenue on the
Brighton Line many times with the window down, and
having to watch out for the dripping water not far
out of Prospect Park. It's funny I don't associate
that memory with the Standards. I really liked the
Triplexes, but at that moment I'm not sure if they
had windows that dropped on the storm door.
I really liked the Triplexes, but at that moment I'm not sure if they had windows that dropped on the storm door.
They do. Rode many a Nostalgia Train of Triplexes with the front window open, the steel dust and deafening whistle notwithstanding.
--Mark
Thanks for the post, Mark. I was just going through the Triplex pictures on this website, trying to see if the windows dropped. Like you say they do. Now it seems more likely that I was fresh airing it on the good old Brighton Express, which if I remember had red and green marker lights. The Standards on the Brighton were local, and they never got up enough speed to clog my ears, except maybe between the Park and 7th Ave. If you weren't expecting the motorman to blow the whistle and you had your head out the window, I think I can remember banging on the door as I instinctively pull my head back. Nothing like breathing in a little steel dust, you wouldn't need to take any iron supplements. I think that there was a doctor in Brooklyn who recommended that his anemic patients ride the front car with window down to build up their blood. Again thanks.
I'll second that.
Perhaps on the weekends there is one more put in from Stillwell than on weekdays (hence the need to borrow one trainset) and less put ins from the Concourse. The schedule make up can be quirky at times!
Possible scenarios:
They might be assigned #s somewhere in the 3000s
(My guess is either 3010 to 3221 or thereabouts, them old R10 numbers)
They can also take over the #s taken by pre-GOH R44s and R46s (that is, we might see three-digit car numbers once again)
A third, but quite unlikely scenario is that they get assigned numbers taken by the old R11/34s and R27s (8011 to 8222)
All three scenarios assume that none of the Redbirds would have retired by the time the R143 contract is being constructed.
My bet is for scenario #1 (old R10 numbers)
Any other possible scenarios???
Nick C.
I'd go with the old R10 numbers. The numbers from 8010 on will probably be used by the new IRT R142's.
The IRT R142s will use numbers from 6301 to 7760 or so, which had been determined a while ago.
So there exists a very small chance that 8011 and up could be used by the new Div B R143s.
Nick C.
I'd still bet on them using the old r10 numbers.
As posted earlier, the R142s will wear former R16, R17, MS, R21 and R22 numbers. That's the largest contiguous block of retired numbers.
If they're going to 8000s with the R143, they may start with a fresh series (i.e. 8100), or continue the tradition started with the R27s - start them with 8020.
Wayne
[They can also take over the #s taken by pre-GOH R44s and R46s (that is, we might see three-digit car numbers once again)]
This is what I heard they renumbered those cars for in the first place.
OK, the "L" is going to get the R143s....but there is an entry that the "M" line will also get R143s in their line when they come.
The "M" getting the R143s is according to JoeKorNer's page....
Here is what I think might happen...
#1 Slant R40s will likely to go to Jamaica, that is, if they last this long. Very likely R40s making a comeback will be seeing their last hurrah on the E, F, G, Q and R lines...but be forewarned that the N might also receive some amount of R42s. Note: quite interesting to see R40s and R46s running on the same line.
P.S. Has the G or R ever seen an R40 or R42 in service on either line???
#2 Some R42s may go to Jamaica, otherwise the J, M, Z will have the majority of the R42s...unless they decide to give some number of the R42s to the (heaven forbid) N line.
Other scenarios are certainly possible.
Nick C.
My bet is the R40 slants and R40M's will go to Coney Island to supplement whatever new train serves 63rd St. and the Eastern division will be exclusively R143 and R42.
According to a Bulletin from a couple of years ago, the N would get R-42's.
In response to the {P.S.} the "G" saw R40Ms when first delivered, the #4500-series cars, which then had brake test numbers (CBxx, ASxx).
The "RR" had R42s when first delivered. They got the 4550-4599 cars first (these were subsequently transferred to the "N"), then they got #4808-4849, which remained there for some time.
Wayne
The R-42s were spread around when they arrived so that as many routes as possible would have at least a few air conditioned trains.
Of course, R-42s 4572 and 4573 were immortalized in The French Connection with their N signs.
I rode on a couple of N trains of R-42s in July of 1971. Those suckers could MOVE!!
They still can, when liberated from the curve plagued eastern division BMT lines.
What are brake test numbers? I have sen pictures with such number plates, but never knew what they meant.
These numbers were seen on R36 Mainline cars (mostly on the #1) and also the R40Ms, before they received their permanent numbers in 1970. They were two letters and two numbers: ASxx, CBxx etc. I believe they did this to distinguish them from other equipment which was not undergoing brake tests. I distinctly remember riding on AS19 back on November 4, 1969, then in service on the "EE".
I show the following IND Brake Test numbers in my collection:
(grouped by the line where I first saw them)
EE's
AS10, AS11
CB22, CB23 (4520-4521)
CB20, CB21 (4518-4519)
CB32, CB33 (4530-4531)
CB34, CB35 (4532-4533)
AS20, AS21
AS24, AS25
GG's
AS22, AS23
AS16, AS17
AS18, AS19
CB24, CB25 (4522-4523)
Wayne
I know this is not about the NYC Subway but in the NY Post Friday Sept. 10, page 30, is a article about Restaurateur Matthew Kenney is finally opening his new restaurant Metrazur in Grand Central Terminal by Mid-November. The restaurant will be across from Mike Jordan's steakhouse.
Let's not drool, but your most excellent thoughts on this article most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
9/10/99
Does anybody out there know when the LIRR Port Jeff line was electrified from Mineola to Hicksville and Hicksville to Huntington ?
Bill Newkirk
I think it was in the early 70's. I remember it well, I just don't remember the dates!!
I bet Ron Ziel would know the answer to that if someone knows how to contact him. As an alternative try calling the LIRR in Jamaica or checking the new website lirrhistory.com
[ I bet Ron Ziel would know the answer to that if someone knows how to
contact him. As an alternative try calling the LIRR in Jamaica or
checking the new website lirrhistory.com ]
Ron Ziel is listed in the white pages. I called him once, because I'm looking to see how I can find two of his books, the ones on the Electric and Diesel eras (Both out of print, only the Steam-centric ones are actually available). Anyways, he called me back from his bed in the hospital(!) (he had some circulatory problem in a leg). He attends many of the RR bazarrs in the area, selling his books and whatnot.
Last I was there, The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina had several copies of one of Ron's LIRR books - don't remember which one, but I think it may have been the diesel book. You might try giving them a call at (919) 833-1123. They've got a tremendous collection of out-of-print books thanks to an overzealous employee who worked there for a number of years and ordered half a dozen copies of everything!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The LIRR electrification to Huntington opened in October 1970. Remember it well!
October 1970 is the date the M1s first travelled east of Nassau Tower on the Main Line. I remember it well!
Is that the tower in Mineola?
[Is Nassau Tower the tower in Mineola?]
Yes.
9/11/99
Hey Pete! Wasn't Nassau tower originally named "Fair" tower for the Mineola Fair ?
Bill Newkirk
Sure is! right where the Oyster Bay line breaks off with the main. Wasn't Landia closed around that time? (though you can still get scheduling info on it :) i seem to recall seeing pictures somewhere of an ERA fantrip for the double deckers around that time that went through there.
Hey Andy - do you know if the LIRR has any technical info on the MP-54s, as I'm *still* looking for info on them!!! Thanks :)
[ Hey Andy - do you know if the LIRR has any technical info on the
MP-54s, as I'm *still* looking for info on them!!! Thanks :) ]
Phillip,
Why don't you call the PR people and ask? While you're at it, you might want to ask them if they could give you some of their inventory of NP door control hardware -- The stuff on the current push-pull cars seems like it is the same as I saw on the MP54. Surely they aren't using it anymore. I was going to actually see if I could get it for the cars, but maybe it'd be easier for you, since you are more of a representative of where the car actually is (I could pick it up if you made arrangements).
I called the LIRR once. The person I got wasn't aware that there WERE electrics before the M-1s!!!!
If anyone knows a good set of pointers - I'm willing to try. Erik suggested just going to morris park myself, but I'm stuck up here in Hartford for the next few months :(
[ If anyone knows a good set of pointers - I'm willing to try. Erik
suggested just going to morris park myself, but I'm stuck up here in
Hartford for the next few months :( ]
Maybe I'll give that a try for you. It's be interesting to visit there anyways, and this would give me an excuse to walk in and say something other than "duh, just looking" :)
Heh - hold on a day or two though - I've managed to get as far as car Engineering - I'm waiting for a call back (believe it or not, the LIRR is pretty good at calling you back if you leave a message!)
Maybe they'll go looking if a couple dozen people show up at various times requesting it? >:)
[ Heh - hold on a day or two though - I've managed to get as far as car
Engineering - I'm waiting for a call back (believe it or not, the LIRR
is pretty good at calling you back if you leave a message!) ]
I've found that the "staff" of the Public relations dept will definately follow good office practices, and not lost your message and make sure to follow up on it. Of course, they won't work very hard to track something down -- the easiest answer they can get, they'll return -- usually that's "no". If you talk to higher-ups, they seem to be able to make more things happen, but you'll have to nidge them yourself. I think the guy I spoke to last time I wanted something was Bill Butvick.
Anyways, record what you do, so you'll have names and times of calls for later, and if you (or someone else) goes down there, they'll have names to rattle off.
It's a shame that the LIRR doesn't give a shirt about preservation. The RR has had a very interesting and unusual history, but most of it is all gone. No more MP-42's or any of the early electric stuff no MP-72's, save the trailers that are around (luckily, I think that both Loco 35 group and RMLI will get two push-pull coaches each, but I think that the remaining P72's were all originally trailers. I haven't seen any cars which had any indication of a former life at the head of a train.
For some,unknown reason, the LIRR seems to have forgotten they existed before 1970.
Heres a good one folks: Mr Peabody (and Boy Sherman..) has offered you the use of his WABAC Machine, letting you go back to anytime in NYC history. What time do you go to and why.. the only limitations are those of the SubTalk board. Also, you can only go for three days...
I would probably go back to some time in the early fall of 1939....
A) get to go to the 1939 Worlds Fair ( on the IND Worlds Fair line!) for one day
B) Would be able to ride almost the entire subway/el network at its pre-unification peak (except for the Sixth Ave el..oh well...) Just think...Standards...Triplexs on the Brighton...MultiSections on the Canarise-14th st line...The Q units just after their re-building...open gate cars all over the place...TROLLEYS all over the place...the IRT Worlds Fair cars are brand new...the Green Hornet is running...the Zephyr is running...geez...maybe FOUR days....maybe a quick trip down the Pennsy main to watch GG-1s and MP-54s zipping by..."black cars" on the H&M 33rd st trains....K-4s carding out of Exchange Place....hmmmmm...maybe a WEEK..........
Where can I pitch in on WABAC machine development? ;)
But - How could you possibly forget the Lacawanna's 3kv system, and THE NEW HAVEN LINE!!!! Nevermind NY Central electric ops. Oh, and Sunnyside to catch the DD-1, and B-1, and oddballs that were around then.
OOPS! Theres just so much to remember what was around at that time.....
Besides being able to ride the Standards and Triplexes again, I'd love to be able to use one of the vending machines (IND division) to buy a SkyBar......
Hey McNits: Here's one for you. I miss those Dentyne and Chiclets gum machines attached the posts in the subways. The gum for some reason always tasted sweeter from those machines. (my imagination for sure). I actually looked for those and found none. They are long gone but I remember them while waiting for the Sea Beach at 42nd or 34th Street when I transferred from the 4th Ave Local to my favorite train.
Sea Beach Man: you jogged my memory a lot when you mentioned the Chiclets/Dentyne gum machines on the subway posts---there was something slightly unusual that I can't recall exactly. Was the coin slot on an angle or something---( I think the price was less than a nickel); and wasn't it like a mini-pack---one or two pieces? Boy, you'ver really brought me back!
You got two Chiclets in a little box for a penny. I don't know about the Dentyne because I never bought it. The best ones were the peanut machines where you got a small handfull of loose peanuts for a penny, and they were good peanuts.
And the Hershey's mini-bar machines. William Ronan had them taken out around 1971 because he saw some wrappers thrown on the ground and didn't want trash in his subway. This happened just about the same time the MTA began ignoring the graffiti problem on the trains (they were already avoiding preventive maintenance, which helped make the 70s and early 80s the dark ages for the system)
Karl B: You know you are right. I just told McNits that I thought it was two cents for the Chiclets, but now I remeber it was a penny. But I think you are wrong about the peanuts or I just got a bad pack. Once when were waiting for the Brighton Express to take us to Prospect Park Station for a Dodger game at Ebbets Field, my Dad tried to get us in the mood by buying some peanuts from one of those machines. They tasted rotten and I never bought them again down there. One boy's heaven is another boy's poison. I wonder if I just got a rotten bag.
Have a good one.
The peanuts I was referring to were loose. They were redskin peanuts that were small and oval shaped. You put your penny in, held your hand under the chute, and slid the lever from right to left. About two dozen peanuts would fall into the palm of your hand. Most of the time I used the machines on the Eastern Parkway-Broadway Junction el station, but I saw the machines at other stations as well. The time period was late 1940's and early 1950's. This may be too long ago for most sub-talkers.
You must have been a Brooklyn Dodger fan, do you remember Eddie Miksis?
Miksis scored the winning run when Cookie Lavagetto broke up Floyd Bevens' bid for a no-hitter in the 1947 World Series, IIRC.
BTW, I'm sure you heard Pee Wee Reese died recently.
Steve B- 8AVEXP: Only a real baseball fan would know that Miksis scored the winning run in the 4th game of the l947 Series. Who did Lavagetto pich hit for? See of you know it. Riding tbe Brighton Express to Prospect Park Station enroute to a ball game---Heaven.
Lavagetto pinch hit for Eddie Stanky. I have a record of the Miracle Mets which features a few clips from past games in New York, and Red Barber's call of that moment was one of them.
Taking the 7 out to Shea did it for me.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Bingo. You're a baseball fan. Now get out and go to some games. Larry Walker, you've got to like him. The Rockies need all kinds of pitching, that;s their problem.
IMHO, the Rockies need a whole new team, not just a pitching staff. They've been underachievers. I suppose it might be a tad easier to get tickets now, since they're not selling out every game the way they were when Coors Field first opened.
I'm glad to hear that someone else remembers the name Miksis. Can you believe he was my favorite player. I have no explanation as to why I chose to follow the career of a utility infielder. I was shattered when #34 was one of the eight players involved in the trade with the Cubs in '51.
I did hear about Pee Wee. His passing received a lot of news coverage in this area even though we live in Oriole country.
Did you know that Miksis finished his career with the Orioles, I think it was 1958 or 59.
Karl B: Was I ever a Brooklyn Dodgers Fan. Eddie Miksis was a slug, couldn't hit a lick and was traded to the Cubs in June, 1951 for Wayne Terwilliger as part of an 8-man trade that brought Andy Pafko to Brooklyn. The machine I was talking about was located at Times Square where we changed trains. It was a package, but maybe I would have been better served it I got them the way you did. I never liked peanuts after that.
A lot of people were upset when Miksis, Hermanski, Edwards and Hatten went to the Cubs. Others were thrilled that Pafko was coming to the Dodgers. It was as if Pafko would make the Dodgers into a championship team. The funny thing was that in a year and a half Pafko moved on to the Braves. Miksis got a lot more playing time in Chicago than he ever did in Brooklyn.
I'll bet there is a law now that loose peanuts can't be sold to the public. One penny would probably buy one peanut today. I still remember them tasting very good.
Karl B. When we got Pafko in June of '51, going to Ebbets Field was a pleasure, and even though Pafko didn't do that well for us, we increased our lead to 13-and a half games by August 11 of that year. I mean were cleaning everyone's clock. We had beaten the Giants 12 of 15 games up to August 13, then the roof fell in. The Giants won 37 of 44 to force a playoff, and we just stopped hitting. I mean just stopped hitting. It just happened that way. What a miserable experience that was, and going to Ebbets Field at the end of that year was not an enjoyable. The Brighton seemed slower, too.
I only ever got to three games at Ebbets field, and they were all before the big trade. I had to rely on the descriptions of Red Barber and Connie Desmond over the radio. We finally got TV in '52. Remember, only one camera, and that was behind home plate.
Karl: Why not more than three? Did you live too far away, or were you too young--or were you a Giants fan?
Fred,
I was definately a Dodger fan, but most of all I was an Eddie Miksis fan. The Giants were the enemy. Age had a lot to do with it. I was too young to go by myself, then in 1949 I got a paper route delivering the Long Island Press after school. The next summer I got a second job working in the neighborhood candy store. There never seemed to be enough time. After Miksis was traded in 1951 it just didn't seem to be that important anymore.
Karl: You must have been a fanatic Eddie Miksis fan not to care about the Dodgers after he was traded. I always believed he was a scrub and could't hit a lick. However, I had a strong feeling for Marvin Rackley who had a pretty good 1948 but faded fast thereafter. My two favorites in 1946 and 1947 when I was a six and seven year little fanatic were Dixie Walker and Eddie Stanky. Both were traded and gone by 1948 and I was bummed out. My father told me not to worry. There were some new guys on the block who would make me forget about them. Guys by the name of Hodges, Campanella, Snider, Erskine, not to mention Reese, Robinson and Furillo. He was right. They became a great team and the most beloved baseball club in history.
I live in Oriole country now and my wife is a loyal fan. She is even getting me interested to an extent. History is repeating itself however in that my favorite player now is Jeff Reboulet. I think the main reason I go to games is to ride the Metro into Baltimore.
IIRC, Dixie Walker was traded because he didn't want to play alongside Jackie Robinson. Stanky was sold to the Braves after Durocher sided with him during a contract dispute with Branch Rickey. Durocher said that was the beginning of the end of his Dodger tenure.
BTW, Fred, did you have any idea when you left New York that the Dodgers would win the World Series the following year?
Steve B-8AVEXP: Believe it or not, I told my father that when we leave New York, "You watch, the Dodgers will finally go all the way." I did know it, I felt it, and I regretted not being there when it happened. To make matters worse, when October 4, 1955 dawned, I knew that Johnny Podres was going to win because he had always pitched well against the Yankees in Spring Training. My father, however, would not let me stay home from school and watch the game. Between Snack Period (10 minutes) and lunch (35 minutes) I listened to the game. Toward the end of fourth period I was in English class when I saw a guy I know pass by. I yelled out the window and asked what happened. He told me the Dodgers just won. I went nuts and shook up the whole class. Since they knew how much it meant to me, they shared my joy and even the teacher smiled. As much as I support the Mets, I will never love another sports team like I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers. The Bums, Coney Island and the Sea Beach were my childhood passions.
When the Mets made it to the World Series in 1969, our school principal let it be known that we weren't allowed to bring radios and that they would keep us informed as to game scores. Only one announcement was made, during Game 4. I saw the ninth inning of Game 5, and still remember Curt Gowdy proclaiming, "..and the Mets are the world champions!" when Cleon Jones put away Davey Johnson's fly ball.
Has it really been 30 years?
An interesting parallel occurred in my life: we moved from New Jersey to Connecticut after my sophomore year in high school, and that fall, my old high school football team went undefeated.
Steve: And how did your new school do? And how many different places have you lived? You're in Colorado now, right? Maybe the Beach Boys had you in mind when they recorded "Round, Round, I Get Around". The Mets play the Braves six times in the next two weeks and I'll be glued to my TV set. Woe to anyone who disturbs me.
Well, Cheshire High won three straight state football titles earlier this decade; their former coach is now an assistant at Notre Dame. The coach at Syracuse, Paul Pasqualoni, is a Cheshire grad. I graduated with a brother of his, or however they might be related.
As for where I've lived, here's a brief summary:
Born in South Bend, Indiana. Notre Dame fan for life.
Moved to New Jersey at age 10. Became lifelong subway buff and Met fan.
Moved to Connecticut at age 16. Finished high school and college.
Came out to Colorado 19 years ago on Sept. 16. Been here ever since.
I wish you had posted that eight months ago. I told the S-gauge rapid-transit model builder that he would be hearing from someone from either Indiana, New Jersey or Colorado. By the way, I'm sure you are a member, Are you coming to the big train show in York in mid-October?
I am a TCA member, yes. Unfortunately, I will not be going to York. Someday maybe.
Have you ever been to one of those shows?
We have a few TCA-sponsored meets in Denver during the year, and I try to attend them when I can. No, I haven't made it out to York yet. I should point out that I joined TCA only two years ago after putting it off for, oh, about 13-14 years.
I'm not trying to drum up business for it, it's just that it's supposed to be the largest train show in the world. I know that I have never seen a bigger show anywhere. I think that they have eight buildings full of tableholders now.
Yes, the York meet is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest. You're probably right about all those buildings.
But they don't have much other than LionSmell and other stuff that runs on track with the third rail in the wrong place!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm in agreement that most of it is, but the percentage seems to be going down. It seems to me that there is more and more HO at each meet.
Still no good for me - I'm in N.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right, there is very little N. It's there, but not much. Maybe you could attend just for the sociability. Along with the wheeler-dealers, there are also some really nice people who attend the meet.
I've seen live catenary in N but not third rail. "N Scale" magazine had a good article about doing catenary a while back. If anyone's interested email me and I'll look up the issue..
-Dave
There's actually a series - five or six issues worth - on its construction. East Penn's is trolley wire, and of course there's NCat. One of the NCat guys has actually constructed 12 feet of module using live third rail just to prove it can be done, but the tolerances are so critical that even the relatively slight changes temperature and humidity in the extremely well climate-controlled exhibition room played havoc with it, as did anyone walking heavily enough to vibrate the modules. And the only way he was able to solve the problem of crossing from one module to the next was to alternate the third rail from one side of the track to the other - that way he had no joints to worry about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm into American Flyer S gauge all the way. Mostly Gilbert, with some Lionel Flyer thrown in.
If you're into truly miniscule operations, there's always Z scale.
I've got some of that too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But they don't have much other than LionSmell and other stuff that runs on track with the third rail in the wrong place!
[stupid question] Are there any model systems with the third rail in the right place? I've seen live catenery in G scale, but I've never seen live third rail at any scale below prototype.
Yes, there are, although the third rail wasn't quite what you would think! Back in the early days of scale railroading (as opposed to tinplate) many modelers ran with outside third rail for power pickup, primarily on 1:48 scale (true O) but also on HO. This avoided the need for insulated axles and also permitted the modification of tinplate equipment to scale flange depth for running on scale rail. It gave a "different" look to the layout, although I can't say that it was significantly more prototypical; ever see a Pennsy M1a with third rail shoes?
And, by the way, the East Penn Traction Club, of which I am a member, runs from the wire in G, O, HO, and N scales.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you ever get to York, look me up, and we can hash out the finer points of the R-10's.
It's a deal.
Steve: What no New York? As for Notre Dame, as long as Davie is the coach I want nothing to do with them. I had him pegged as a loser the first time I saw his picture. I waS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I have a visceral dislike for that man.
I respect your opinion. My feeling is that Davie is better than Gerry Faust, who was a total wuss. Maybe not much better, but better. My father remembers Joe Kuharich and his "you win some, you lose some" attitude. At Notre Dame, it's been "win or else".
It would be nice if winning football games were as easy as restoring field shunting on a subway car - to keep this on topic.
Then I won't ask what your reaction is whenever they play Russ Hodges' call of Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world". I feel the same way whenever they replay Anthony Davis running back the second half kickoff for a touchdown in the 1974 USC-Notre Dame game. It's sickening.
Bob Murphy's call of the game-ending double play which clinched the Eastern Division title for the Mets in 1969 is a much more pleasant recollection.
Steve B-8AVEXP: I'm a big Mets fan now, and they just cleaned up on the Dodgers. You ought to hear all the barfing and moaning by the Dodger fans out here. I think it's funny as hell.
The Mets just took two out of three from the Rockies here in Denver. The big news here is that Jim Leyland is leaving at the end of the season, saying he's burned out. I think if Leo Durocher (what did you think of him, BTW) were to take over the Rockies, he'd say to Jerry McMorris, "Back up the truck."
I saw the Mets a few times at Mile High Stadium, Mets garb and all, but have not been to Coors Field yet. The strike of five years ago left a bad taste in my mouth.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Come on Steve. Baseball is back in full force. You are missing out and if you're a Mets fan like you say, you have got to see that infield of theirs. It could be the best in history. Sea Beach man is not giving up on colleague who gave me my website nickmame.
Well, IIRC, I dubbed you Mr. Sea Beach, but that's OK. Same difference. I will say that if I happen to be in New York when the Mets are in town, and this has happened on a couple of occasions, I'll hop on a 7 out to Shea and buy a ticket. At least I know I'm in friendly territory at Shea. Looing back to when I did go to Mile High, I didn't get too much grief from anyone. Once, when the Mets were staging a rally, I stood up and cheered, then someone asked, "Who are you rooting for?" I pointed to the NY on my cap.
Don't get me wrong - I will NEVER root against the Mets!
Steve B-8AVEXP: Can you please tell me what IIRC stands for. I'm stumped. But as far as the Mets go, good show. I went to Shea for four games while I was in New York last August and had a blast. The fans were great, the food good, and the games better. Make sure you get to see the Mets either at Coors or when you go East. Take care.
I hope Steve doesn't mind me jumping in here even though I was a fanatical Miksis fan.
IIRC If I recall correctly
Karl B: You never finished your note telling me what IIRC stands for. You finished in mid-sentence. Come on, I'm dieing to know.
You're kidding, aren't you....
IIRC stands for "If I recall correctly"
Karl B: Sorry I wasn't kidding. I'm still new to some of the subway website lingo-----but I learn fast. Chao
It's general internet lingo, not just subway website lingo. Don't be surprised if you see it elsewhere. Or IMHO (In my Humble Opinion), BTW (By The Way) or NIMBY (Not In My Backyard) there are others, but I can't recall any now.
Eugenius: I'm writing them down now.
NIMBY is not an internet term. It has been used a long time before the internet. Other internet terms are LOL-laughing out loudLMAO-laughing my a$$ off OMG-oh my goshROFLMAO-rolling on the floor laughing my a$$ off BTW,I was stumped by IIRC but was afraid to ask!!
Yeah, those are the ones I forgot (how could I have forgotten LOL?!?). Of course, I never heard of OMG.
"IIRC if I recall correctly"
"You never finished your note telling me what IIRC stands for. You finished in mid-sentence."
Why does this remind me of the immortal exchange "Who's on first?" "That's right." Etcetera. :^)
If you liked "Who's On First" you'll love these:
wav#1
wav#2
wav#3
"I'll bet there is a law now that loose peanuts can't be sold to the public."
I'll take that bet. While I can't be sure about New York, here in Illinois I've seen several gumball-type machines, with all the appropriate tax stickers, that dispense a fairly large handful of loose peanuts. Not on the CTA, mind you, but in the bank of machines selling gumballs and plastic crap near the exits of many supermarkets.
"One penny would probably buy one peanut today."
That's true. 20-25 peanuts for a quarter.
I left New York more than forty years ago, but it is my understanding that the vending machines that were mounted on the support posts right on the platforms are long gone. I guess if they were still there they would probably be 25 or 50 cents instead of a penny.
My memory has faded with time as to what those peanuts looked like, but years ago I was never able to find a commercially packaged peanut that seemed to be the same. It's ridiculous to think that the only place that type of peanut could be purchased was in a subway vending machine.
9/16/99
Karl B.
Ever see the movie "Somebody up there likes me"? This movie profiling the life and times of Rocky Graziano had a couple of scenes shot in the BMT Chambers St. station. In one scene Paul Newman (Rocky) and Sal Mineo are talking and there is a peanut vending machine attached to a column as you described. Funny,the station sign (Chambers) was covered and for the sake of the movie was 14th St! Another great scene is a train of B-types entering the station (probably the middle tracks) and when stopping they enter car #2354. Find this movie,the subway scenes are worth the price. (b&w 1955)
Bill Newkirk
Bill and Karl: I saw that movie two weeks ago while on vacation. I saw the peanut machine, and the gum machine that Paul (Rocky) jimmied for some loose change. My question is what that B train the West End, the Brighton local or the 4th ave local. I know it wasn't the Sea Beach because when I moved from NY in 1954 the only Sea Beach trains were the D-type triplexes.
B-types is another term for the BMT standards, along with ABs. Specifically, B units were 3-car motorized units permanently coupled together. There were other designations as well: A units were single cars; BX units were 3-car sets with a motorless trailer in the middle.
The Triplexes also ran on the Brighton. They ended their careers (prematurely, IMHO) on the West End in 1965.
Steve: Did they end for my Sea Beach the same year. I think I saw a picture on a Triplex Sea Beach dated May 2, 1964 at 8th Ave. Is that around the time the SB stopped carrying the #4 designation? Let me know.
Can't say for sure. The arrival of the R-32s signaled the beginning of the end for the Triplexes. The first R-32s were assigned to the Q/Brighton Express. My guess is that the Sea Beach was next. At any rate, the Triplexes spent their final days on the West End.
As I've said in earlier threads, it was one thing to put the R-16s out of their misery, as they were in sad shape towards the end of their careers. Retiring the Triplexes when they were still in great shape was a huge mistake, IMHO. Sending them to slaughter is the way I like to put it. They would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance.
Bill Newkirk, (once again)
Thanks for the hint about "Somebody Up There Likes Me". I have never seen the movie. I am an old movie fan and will make it a point to see it. In addition to the peanut vending machine I'm sure I'll enjoy seeing 2354 as well. My wife will probably never let me forget I wanted to see a movie because of a vending machine.
Karl B
9/16/99
Karl,
Rent or buy the movie (considering it out on tape),you'll be rewinding that VCR to check out those subway scenes studying Chambers and the Standards. Yes!,those old incandescent station lights are lit.
Bill Mangahas
Depends on where you are. When I'm back home in North Carolina I can get a handful of peanuts or loose candy a lot of places. Come to think of it, the Super Foodtown in Ocean Township, NJ (where I shop on a very occasional basis - they have the best selection and prices right before Pesach but otherwise there's no real reason to go there) also has machines where you can get a handful of Mike & Ike or other candies. And there are machines in Seaview Square Mall (Ocean Twp.) too. But they're a quarter now!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Even in my local supermarket I can scoop out the quantity of peanuts still in the shell to purchase the amount I want. It was those fascinating little redskin peanuts in the vending machines that I have been unable to find. I tried a similar nut sold by Planters in cans some years ago but the taste was not the same, at least if I can rely on my memory.
McNits: The coin slot was at an angle and that was to keep us from putting certain type of slugs in the machine. Sometimes those slugs worked. The price was a penny for a piece of Dentine Gum, and, here I am not certain, two cents for a pack of chiclets. I always had to have gum in the subway. Wierd as it might seem, it tasted better down there. What's even stranger is that there were no such gum machines that I can remember when the train exited the tunnels. All the machines were underground. Keep 'em rolling.
9/14/99
Remember those 5 cent Hershey candy bar machines? They were painted red held 3 candy bar varities and were column mounted. Those machines ate up nickels and jammed a lot. Perhaps you may remember those sode and ice cream vending machines too/
Bill Newkirk
Bill: Bingo! Yes those machines. However, it was those ice cream machines that always seem to jam, not the candy bar ones. I used to get the red covered wrapper Hershey with nuts. And that machine jammed for you? Wierd. I can remember those ice cream machines not always working and my Mom telling me to wait until we got off the train so we could find a Bungalow Bar or a Topsy Turvy Truck and she'd buy me one. Those trucks came only from April to September, so in between I was out of luck.
Sea Beach Man: Ice Cream!!! I remember, when I was in my under tens,
taking the 4th Ave local to "downtown" Brooklyn each year shopping for school clothes ( E.J.Korvettes, Mays, etc.). Money was tight for us then, but mom always found a way to get me that soft ice cream with strawberry or chocolate topping in a fluted glass at the cafeteria in McCrory's Department Store lower level (I think there was an entrance directly from the store's lower level to the IRT Nevins St station). And she always got me a frank or two from one of those corner food stands along with drink in one of those conical, upside-down dunce cap cups in the plastic holders. I looked forward to that so much. It's funny the the things you take for granted today were sometimes considered a treat. Thanks for the memory.
Hey McNits: This goes two ways. If you have any of those kind of memories, by all means let me know. I believe I was in McCrory's a couple of times just before the start of school--between 1948-1950 For some reason they carried dress shirts for kids that had those spread collars I loved to wear. Funny how you read someone else's experience and boom, you remember more of your own. What a website this is.
1948 was a great year! It was the year I graduated from knickers to long pants. I think I was the last kid in Brooklyn who wore them.
Are Bungalow Bar trucks still making the rounds or are they history too?
I would like to ride the Aqueduct Special, either IND or LIRR (depending on the year) as long as I can bring a copy of the next day's paper with the accurate results and as long as money can be transported back to the present!!!!
I would like to ride the Aqueduct Special, either
IND or LIRR (depending on the year) as long as I can
bring a copy of the next day's paper with the
accurate results and as long as money can be
transported back to the present!!!!
Hey - even better - as long as those '39 dollars grow into '99 dollars!!!
I'll take the same as Jeff but make my timeframe about 1910-1911, and Ill get to the track using the Mineola!!!!
For the other 2 days , Ill take one in NY City before the NY Railways system went toes up and ride streetcars and El's all day and night.
The other Ill spend in Chicago riding the North Shore line and eat my meals in the dining car and relax with a cigar out on the Obervation Car platform. I can hear the motors humming now
One question can we bring film? lol I would need a lot of Kodachrome hehehe
Sounds great as long as the machine doesn't fog up film like those new airport X-ray machines :-)
What I would do is return to NYC transit at its peak--with all els, trolleys and subways in place...I suppose that would be the mid-1930s. I'd add in the additions made since then like the Rockaway IND and the Roosevelt (Welfare) Island subway stop.
BUT: I would have them with modernized equipment, ie. air conditioning, bing-bong doors, etc. What a trip that would be! I'd keep the old structures the way they were, though. The pot bellied stoves would still be there on the 3rd Avenue el for example.
Would look forward to riding Brooklyn's 5th-3rd Avenue el on an R-68...
I wouldn't say NY peaked in the 1930s. That was the Depression, after all. But the general idea is right. You want to show up before the rail/transit network outside the city is dismantled, even if it means a few key city pieces (like the 6th Avenue) have yet to be built. You'd also want electricity, indoor plumbing, and an abscense of horses crapping all over.
I'd like to live on the Grand Concourse when the buildings were new, and Yankee Stadium was just a few years old. In the 1920s, assuming I would be well off (living like most people did before WWII is a nightmare not a fantasy), I'd be one of the few with a car as well, for use on pleasure drives to the country. The movie palaces would be built, and the economy would be booming. I could take the IRT, or an El, or ride a New York Central Train all the way north on the Putnam or Harlem lines. Now that's living.
Larry: Include Coney Island when it was a real great place, throw in Ebbets Field and Prospect, add the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach, and add a pinch of early suburban Long Island, and I'll drink to that. (lemonade). Nice show.
Larry: Include Coney Island when it was a real great place, throw in Ebbets Field and Prospect Park add the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach, and add a pinch of early suburban Long Island, and I'll drink to that. (lemonade). Nice show.
Yes, that was a good time. I was born too late -- or perhaps too soon. Because objectively, the world is a lot better place than it was in the 1970s when I was growing up. Ten years ago, would anyone have suggested being transported into the future to experience great transport and communication technology? Nope -- it was all nostalgia for the old trains and radio shows.
There are two advantages of growing up in the 1970s.
1) You don't look back wistfully at your past, and
2) No matter how fat or bald you are, you look better than you did in your teens.
Regarding "golden eras" ... It's impression from most of what I've read that the early and middle 1950s indeed were a golden era for NYC as a whole. The city was clean, growing and prosperous, the unquestioned national leader in matter both economic and cultural. Crime was extremely low by today's standards and there surely wasn't all the racial and ethnic hatred that boils over nowadays. The city was full of media outlets that addressed just about anyone's opinions and interests, not like today with the _Times'_ effective monopoly. Politics were much more (small "d") democratic than they are now, when the Upper West Siders run the show.
BUT - this same period wasn't so terrific for the subways. System expansion had essentially stopped, except for the takeover of the LIRR's Rockaway route, and ridership numbers had peaked a number of years earlier. And don't forget the never-remedied destruction of the Third Avenue El. Even more seriously, it appears that the "deferred maintenance" policy that proved so disastrous in later years had gotten its start in the mid-1950s.
The 50s may have been a golden era, but from most accounts (read Caro's The Power Broker) the LIRR was in miserable shape in the 50s, with filthy, broken down trains in which you broiled in summer and froze in winter.
As for the lack of racial and ethnic hatred that boils over nowadays, I know what you mean, but I'm sure you're happy about the civil rights reforms that came around in the 60s; I am.
[The 50s may have been a golden era, but from most accounts (read Caro's The Power Broker) the LIRR was in miserable shape in the 50s, with filthy, broken down trains in which you broiled in summer and froze in winter.]
I guess its was in the 1950s that the LIRR became largely a commuter operation, with its business mostly concentrated in rush hour. It's pretty much a given that it's impossible to run at a profit under those circumstances.
Not that the conditions of LIRR trains today are anything to write home about :-)
[As for the lack of racial and ethnic hatred that boils over nowadays, I know what you mean, but I'm sure you're happy about the civil rights reforms that came around in the 60s; I am.]
Oh, definitely. It just seems like there's too much racial rabble-rousing today.
I can't agree that the 1950s were a "golden era" in New York.
Yes, some things were better than today--especially the crime rate was less than even the current post-80's drop.
But it was part of a long general decline of the City. Under Mayor Robert Wagner there was an accleration of the long neglect of infrastructure, sacrificed to increasing social service spending and labor peace.
Apartment buildings were eating up single-family housing and slums were spreading. This was the era when street sweepers were eliminated and a decline in civic pride led to crumbling and filthy streets. When "West Side Story" hit the theater in 1957, it was a romanticized look at the gang problem that worried many.
There was no respect for the public works of the past which were allowed to crumble to oblivion. Bauhaus-inspired modernism created the sterile office structures we see today.
The best part of the '50s was that it took a long time to destroy the past, so there was much to see before it disappeared, but it was disappearing.
The decline of the subways (lack of expansion, deferred maintenance) that you allude to, Peter, were a symptom of what was going on throughout the City.
If I wanted to look through rose-colored glasses at an era, I would choose the '30s. It was a time of amazing physical and cultural vitality in NYC. But then there was that pesky "Great Depression."
[If I wanted to look through rose-colored glasses at an era, I would choose the '30s. It was a time of amazing physical and cultural vitality in NYC. But then there was that pesky "Great Depression."]
Even then, I suppose, things weren't perfect for the subways. Some system expansion was still going on, but the Second System failed to materialize (due in large part to the Depression), some els were lost, and the IRT and BMT were breathing their last as private companies.
My high school and college years all took place during the 70s. More than anything else during that decade, the graffiti epidemic sticks out the most. It was truly repulsive and depressing.
If I could go back in time, there are three scenarios:
1. Back to 1956-57, the time when I was born, when the Giants and Dodgers were still in town and Julie's in Manhattan was selling American Flyer trains like hotcakes. That time period was A. C. Gilbert's golden era. I'd ride the R-1/9s and R-10s all day, with a trip on a Brighton or Sea Beach Express of Triplexes at the top of my list.
2. Back to October of 1936. My mother discovered a few tidbits from my grandfather's visit to the U. S. that year; he was in New York for a week or so in early October before sailing back to Europe. On Oct. 6, he took what is now the Circle Line around Manhattan and shot almost an entire roll of film. There are some good photos of the various bridges as well as the New York Aquarium (Castle Clinton in Battery Park today), but none of Yankee Stadium or the Polo Grounds. Anyway, it would be a kick to bump into him - as long as he didn't have a premonition that he was seeing his grandson-to-be.
3. Chicago in the mid-50s. 4000-series trains in the State St. and Dearborn subways; Green Hornets on the Broadway-State and Clark-Wenworth streetcar routes. I still lament the fact that I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago.
<<
Would look forward to riding Brooklyn's 5th-3rd Avenue el on an R-68... >>
I'd prefer a slant 40 down the Fulton El and then across te Brooklyn Bridge, followed by a Redbird trip up the Second Ave. El and back across the Queensboro to Flushing.
And hope the structures would hold up....
Yeah, really. One word comes to mind with an R-68 on the 5th Ave. el:
TIMMMM_BERRRRRR!!!!!
Nah!!! The old equipment is what makes it a real fantasy!!!
I'll take it any of three ways -- old or new equipment on torn-down lines and old equipment on current lines (Like BMT Standards in the 63rd St. tunnel -- I'd like to hear what the acoustics would be with those pinon gears)
I'd like to see the MS running on an express run like the Queens Boulevard "F" or the 8th Avenue line (either CPW or Fulton). That's one bird I've never spotted. Come to think of it, maybe my fantasy could resurrect a fleet of Bluebs for Ye Olde Canarsie Line, in their classic Clark colors. I can just see one of them at Sutter in my mind's eye.
Wayne
That would be the ultimate express run: a train of multis screamimg along CPW or Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. The R-10s wouldn't stand a chance; the multis would blow them away off the line.
Were the multis really THAT fast?? A couple of books say that they could run the entire weekend Canarsie service with SIX trains of MS units (!!).
Their balancing speed was something like 58 mph, and their acceleration and braking rates were so swift that they had "HOLD ON!" signs. I can only imagine how fast they used to go through the 14th St. tunnel.
Wasn't the TA working on a 2nd Avenue WABACK Machine before the budget crunch in the 1970s?
Sorry people, if it was me, I would set it for WA-WA-WA back and ride my horse up Bloomingdale Road which was roughly between what is now Madison and Park Aves. Cross the Kissing Bridge over the stream that ran through upper Manhattan and cross over to the West Side of the island and "Broadway" on the trail that was roughly between what is now 93rd and 94th Streets.
If it has to have a train in it I would like to spend a couple of days hanging out in the old Hudson Rail Terminal which, I believe, was on the Hudson shore South East of what is now the World Trade Center.
Do you mean the Jersey Central Terminal(Reading/B&O) on Liberty Street at the Hudson River? It was due west of the WTC and connected by ferry to the rail terminal in Jersey City.
Or, do you mean Hudson Terminal where the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad ran?
Just three days? Hmmm... Three continguous days?
I guess I would aim for June 21-22-23, 1915.
Last operation of the Sea Beach to 3rd/65th, then ride the Sea Beach with Standards on opening day over the Manhattan Bridge. West End and Culver still on the surface. Ride the Brighton with all elevated cars, the old r-o-w to Church Avenue, lotsa pictures of old Prospect Park, then the current r-o-w past Sheepshead Bay, down the ramp, then on the surface to Culver Depot. Maybe a stop at Luna Park and a trip with L cars to Norton's Point.
Gotta hit all the other L lines and see all the pre-Dual Contract stuff. After a few spins around the loop at Sands Street, it's on to Park Row. Now I'm going to do every inch of the (pre-third tracking) Manhattan els, 2-3-6-9.
In my slack time, all those Brooklyn trolleys. Do I have time for a round trip from Penn to Manhattan Beach?
As soon as I get back, I'm going to have to sleep around the clock, but not before I rush my film to my photo finisher.
Then I have to get to work pleading for another go-round. After all, I didn't get to see the els in steam days...
OK, I'm setting the dials on the WABC machine to 1967 - Summer time.
The R40s are brand new, looking like space age technology and running on the E and the F. Some are even air conditioned.
R1-R9 cars sit at Jamaica yard alongside R40s, R27s (R27s on the RR) and R38s with their as delivered thin blue stripe - also on the F.
You can catch an R32 on most Southern division BMT trains and they still have their classic blue doors and green backlit destination signs.
But the dionsaurs (in the form of Q cars) still groan away on the Myrtle ave el.
Standards work the Canarsie line day and night - some approaching 50 years in service.
The IRT has beautifully painted R33 and R36s - Worlds Fair cars are looking as good as the R10s on the A train.
The third avenue El in the Bronx is using the 1939 version of IRT "World's Fair" cars - at this time - the oldest IRT cars in the system.
And the Railroads are in their prime too. The Long Island is hauling 14 6 axle heavyweights to Montauk behind a pair of Alco C420s on the Cannonball. RS3s are snarling away and belching smoke at the grades on the Port Jeff and Oyster Bay. Electric Doubledeckers are on the Hempstead branch. Greenport has thru service to Hunterspoint on several trains a day - one with Parlor Car service.
In New Jersey, the Erie (formerly the DL&W) is still running those ancient electric MUs with cane seats and paddle fans.
Speaking of the Erie, it's the last year of thru passenger service - Jersey City to Chicago. Head out on that train - a pair of RS3s. You might wonder whether those RS3s stay on - thru to Chicago.
The New York Central still wears lightning stripes and the ACMUs are their "New" fleet. P motors still haul trains south of croton to GCT.
RS3s handle Harlem line traffic from White Plains to Chatham.
Aging RDCs handle the off hours Poughkeepsie - Croton and Dover Plains shuttle.
Speaking of Poughkeepsie, freights run daily over the Poughkeepsie bridge which connects with the Maybrook on one side and leads to Brewster and Danbury on the other. Ramshackle New Haven diesels haul tonnage through very rural surroundings with very tired equipment.
The FL9s on the New Haven are all in New Haven livery and haul everything from Boston - New York Long distance to commuter to freight traffic. There are 60 of them working at this time all over lines that go as far North as Pittsfield, MA. One train connects for through service to Montreal.
At this time in 1967, who could have thought that the LIRR would some day be without Alco power, thru service to Greenport, 6 axle coaches?
Who would have thought that electric MUs would be replaced by M1 and M2 equipment and that service to Chatham would be dropped?
P motors and all things good that were long distance got replaced by Amtrak. It wasn't expected.
It never ocurred to me that the R1 fleet, the Standards, Q cars, IRT 39 Worlds Fair cars - that all these would be retired or close to retirement within just five years.
It was a time of change and I want to go back - just once - to see it again.
Better set that machine to Summer 1968. In Summer 1967, the R-40s weren't in yet. IIRC, the first R-40s came in around Election Day 1967 to help sell the $600 million bond issue (which passed -- aren't you riding the Second Avenue Subway?), and promptly went back to St. Louis Car to be finished. A similar thing happened in 1971 with R-44s.
David
[The R40s are brand new, looking like space age technology and running on the E and the F. Some are even air conditioned.]
Yeah, 1967 was a good year. My love affair with the subway blossomed and took off that year. It's something I wouldn't mind revisiting.
Penn Station was gone by then, and the old Met was demolished. The Mets sank back to the NL cellar that year, although a fellow named Tom Seaver was Rookie of the Year. Mickey Mantle was playing first base for the Yankees in an attempt to save his knees.
The R-38s were the new kid on the subway block that summer, and the Chrystie St. connection was a few months away from creating total chaos on the IND and BMT for a few days anyway. The R-1/9s still had backlit side destination signs as they whined along the IND while the R-10s were roaring along CPW on the A in their teal and white livery. Meanwhile, the R-16s were still sporting BMT number markings on their route curtains, as they hadn't embarked yet on their gypsy-like meanderings from yard to yard.
Steve B--8AVEXP: Since you're by blood brother after giving me the title "Sea Beach Man", I would be loathe to criticize you after bragging what a great year 1967 was. Since I met my lovely wife of 29 years that year it was a great year for me on that score alone. But believe me, if you were in your early or mid 20's at that time there were a lot of things that were not so good about that year. The cities were on fire because of numerous riots, the college campuses were in ferment over things ranging from inequities in society to the war in Vietnam. People were losing faith in their government for the first time. It was a rough time. AND---that was the year that #4 disappeared from the Sea Beach for good (except for a day or two in 1970). The Sea Beach became the N, and although that letter is one of my favorite numbers, a large measure of my childhood was gone forever.
And it was the "Summer of Love" in San Francisco, CA.
Dad and I got a ride through Chrystie Street and the new Grand Street station on Sunday, November 26, 1967. The "D"s were R32s, all spiffy and shining bright. Song of the day: "Love Me Two Times" by The Doors.
Wayne
Sea Beach Man: I also recall the year 1967 fondly, (I was 17 for most of that year) although ('79-met future wife, '80-engaged, '81- marraige, '82 -85 sons, '91-daughter) have since outdistanced the former. I graduated from Bishop Ford High School that year, and was an incoming matriculated freshman at Brooklyn College, so I discovered the eccentricities of the Brooklyn IRT that year. Open enrollment at CUNY was still several years away, but I recall numerous demonstrations on campus. Besides all that, I remember noticing that adults spoke to me like my opinion really mattered, that they recognized I wasn't just a kid anymore...I really felt like I the world was mine for the taking......a great feeling.
McNits: Sounds to me like the 80's was when you really picked up and laid them down. A new wife, sons and daughters. Sounds to me like you are a real family man. I'm ten years older. I turned 27 late that year, though I lied to my future wife who was still 19 and wouldn't turn 20 until January of '68. My friends told me I was robbing the cradle, but I didn't want to lose her. When I told her the truth a year later, it was too late. I had corrupted her. You are right about being treated as if you mattered. I no longer took any crap from older adults and became a teacher in Feb. of '68. I also became one of the more militant teachers at the school. Today's new teachers are so namby-pamby, they do what they're told and never question authority. They would make good Nazis always following orders. I'm sure glad I came of age in the 60's I never worried about questioning some crap that some higher up tried to foist on me.
Thanks for the memory. Have a good one and keep in touch.
I'm an ex-teacher myself. Or, more accurately, I subbed for seven years before coming to a fork in the road and taking it, as Yogi Berra once said. Some schools were OK; others were zoos. Believe me, I have never looked back since leaving the education field and don't miss it one bit.
Wayne MrSlantR40--That must have been some day for you. You're right about the "Summer of Love in San Francisco" The town was really jumping and the feeling went 200 miles to Paso Robles where I was doing by two weeks of Army duty with the National Guard that summer. Later in September I met my wife at a dance at Cal State University, Long Beach, and that December we went to a Doors concert at the school where they sang "Love Me Two Times" and others. I have always loved their "Crystal Ship". Thanks for jogging my memory.
I was 10 going on 11 in 1967, so I'm looking back from that perspective. You're right, though - there was a lot of unrest and turbulence.
Just out of curiosity: Does anyone out there have stories about the first day(s) with Chrystie St? Have heard it was quite the adventure the first few days.....
I remember reading a newspaper article (which I didn't keep, unfortunately) in which a motorman punched a wrong button at DeKalb. In the words of the article, "instead of going under the East River by (Montague St.) tunnel, 1,000 astonished riders found themselves crossing the Manhattan Bridge". The article didn't say if the train wound up on Houston St. (north side) or Broadway (south side).
There were other similar incidents. Supposedly, some trains wound up in Kew Gardens instead of the Bronx. To sum it up, the first few days after it opened were chaotic.
"I remember reading a newspaper article (which I didn't keep, unfortunately) in which a motorman punched a wrong
button at DeKalb. In the words of the article, "instead of going under the East River by (Montague St.) tunnel, 1,000
astonished riders found themselves crossing the Manhattan Bridge"."
He must have hit the wrong button before DeKalb - after the late 50's - early 60's northward extension of the DeKalb platforms, there was no way for a train on the "tunnel" track at DeKalb to get on to the "bridge" track.
subfan
You're right - I stand corrected. Pacific St, perhaps?
I guess if there was a WAFORWARD machine, we could set it forward a few years to see what the 2nd ave line looks like, but I doubt it'd be able to go forward enough....
Since this is fantasy...
come 1/1/2000 we'll be back in 1900 and we'll see them build the IRT contract 1 and be able to ride the old steam els. I dont think the machine is Y2K compliant--It seems to be a 1950s or 1960s machine!
Now, sicne it is a time machine we could return to a minute before we left so we would have never left and then go to another time and so on! (common Sci-Fi Them,e which was made popular in Robert A. Heinlein's story : By His Bootstraps-- the hero travels in time and meets a character who has him meet a third character. Our hero discovers that he is the second character and then discovers that he is also the third character-- classic sc-fi Paradox!)better stop here before I drift so far off topic that Big Brother vaporizes this post :-)
Souns like Back to the Future Part II if you ask me.
It does, but Heinlein was FIRST, While there, I'd also tell the builders of the Manhattan Bridge to put the tracks in the center!
I dont have the exact date, but I think By His Bootstraops was written in the late 1940s or early 1950s.I'm sure the library might have a collection with this story.
Just remembered! Also (if I'm starting out in NYC at first); coming up HERE (Middletown), on the old O&W walking thru my town as it was..[actually not all that different!], and then taking the Erie down to JERSEY CITY. (For those who don't know:Middletown used to be a happin' little railroad town, with the Erie Main running thru, and being the headquarters town of the old New York,Ontario & Western (O&W). The O&W was the first Class One railroad to go totally out of business back in 1957...which tells you a lot about THIS town :>)
I believe I'd ask Mr. Sherman to set the Wayback Machine for 1879 or so, and ride all of the Coney Island steam dummy lines.
However, if I were granted license to step just a bit outside the framework of SubTalk, I would opt to be landed in New York circa 1898. I would then hie me hence to the Weehawken Ferry, and board the New York, Ontario & Western's through Wagner buffet sleeper to Chicago via NYO&W - Rome, Watertown, & Ogdensburg - Wabash.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Aren't we going to take a ride over to GCT to greet the Twentieth Century Limited and then head down to the CNJ ferry so we can ride the Blue Comet to Atlantic City?
make my reservation of the broadway to chicago and on to california on the deluxe
I'll leave you at Jersey City, as I take the B&O Royal Blue to Baltimore. Where Brill Semi-Convertibles of 1906 vintage still share tracks with newer siblings, Shiny Peter Witts speed down Falls Road and haul office workers home in comfort, and new PCC cars enchant the public and operators alike. Two and Three car trains of Semi's, jammed to the gills, haul steelworkers and shipwrights to Sparrows Point, home of the largest tidewater steel plant in America. And 90% of the workers arrive by streetcar.
Three Days??? Hell, I'd want to stay a year!!
[I'll leave you at Jersey City, as I take the B&O Royal Blue to Baltimore. Where Brill Semi-Convertibles of 1906 vintage still share tracks with newer siblings, Shiny Peter Witts speed down Falls Road and haul office workers home in comfort, and new PCC cars enchant the public and operators alike. Two and Three car trains of Semi's, jammed to the gills, haul steelworkers and shipwrights to Sparrows Point, home of the largest tidewater steel plant in America. And 90% of the workers arrive by streetcar.]
Is Sparrows Point still in operation? Last time I drove over the Key Bridge, maybe a couple years ago, it looked mostly deserted except for some shipyard operation.
It's still in operation, but a shadow of its former state. Employment is down to about 8700, from over 27,000 in the 1960's. Several of the hot strip mills are gone, but the 68" (the largest) is still in operation, but only 8 hours per day, 5 day week. When I worked there in the late 60's, we ran 21 turns a week - that's 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Both the 56" and the 42" mills were 21 turns, too.
We all made damn good money - $265 a week CLEAR! I was a salried clerk, so I wore a white hat!!
Remember, good guys wear white hats!
1938, so I could stand with my great-uncle when he took the picture of steam on and under (ferry) the Poughkeepsie Bridge that hangs in my living room, then down to the GCT and the subway to the real Penn Station for a ride on the Broadway behind a GG-1, changing at Harrisburg for an M1 over the mountain and across Ohio and Indiana to Chicago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like I'll be using our Express bus & TA subways to get to/from a meeting at South Ferry this comming Thursday. There still is a chance that I may end up riding in a company car, but I hope not.
You may recall that I got the same bus driver both ways last time.
Will need to ensure that I arrive on time because it's going to be a big meeting with a lot of suits. So, can anyone tell me how frequent the N/R is South from 34th Street. I assume it's not more then a few minutes around 9:30 AM vs. almost one after the other on IND & IRT lines.
Mr t__:^)
[Looks like I'll be using our Express bus & TA subways to get to/from a meeting at South Ferry this comming Thursday. There still is a chance that I may end up riding in a company car, but I hope not. You may recall that I got the same bus driver both ways last time.
Will need to ensure that I arrive on time because it's going to be a big meeting with a lot of suits. So, can anyone tell me how frequent the N/R is South from 34th Street. I assume it's not more then a few minutes around 9:30 AM vs. almost one after the other on IND & IRT lines.]
Lengthy and inexplicable gaps between trains seem to be a hallmark of the N/R. You should allow for a wait of at least ten minutes, just to be on the safe side - even 15 minutes if the suits can't be kept waiting.
Thanks Peter, Guess I'll take the reliable old Red Birds on 4/5/6 after a short trip on IND. Maybe I'll take the N/R for the return.
Mr t__:^)
Sorry, I'm going to be gone for a few weeks while my monitor gets replaced.
I was just wondering if any of the posters from this board that live in or have visited Chicago have rode the South Shore Line. It is the Electric train that runs from Randolph Street Station in the Loop to South Bend Airport in South Bend Indiana. It is Chicago's longest commeter rail line 88 miles and 2 & 1/2 hours for a one-way trip.
Anway if anyone has ridden it, I would appreciate any tips or neat things to see. I have never ridden it before despite living in Chicago for 17 years since my birth, however on the other hand if you have any Metra or CTA Questions, I could proabaly answer them.
It should be pretty cool since it uses shared track with Metra Electric between Randolph Street/Downtown Chicago and 115th Street Chicago. It also runs down the middle of the street in Michigan City but also has many streches where it reaches the full 79 m.p.h. allowable with crossings.
I will be embarking on the Journey next Saturday the 18 of September.
BJ
I last rode the South Shore about four years ago, and would say that the highlight is the area from Michigan City east: street running in Michigan City; a still very interurbanish single-track rural line between there and the west edge of South Bend, and even some side-of-the-road running on the new stretch into Michiana Airport.
--
Alan Follett
On the other hand pay attention to vestiges of catenary over freight trackage @ Kensington lower level, Burnham Miller etc. They once used lovely electric 'motors' for freight service including 2 Little Joe's. A look @ the CERA Bulletin or some other reputable history might be in order before the reconoitering trip. In any event have fun! Ifirst rode the line when 11 and have loved it ever since (40 +).
Just finished reading a nice article in an 1982 edition of Trains about the Electroliners that used to ply that line.
(picked it up for a dollar in Moscow, PA)
Mr t__:^)
The Electrolinerswere on the North Shore, not the South Shore. Are you referring to the older electric equipment (don't remember what they called it and I'm on a business trip so I can't check my library) that did run on the South Shore, or do you have the wrong RR?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Eye should have waited until I brought in the article. I'll do that tommorow. It was interurban service under wire in the 40s & 50s.
Mr t__:^)
Well, they both had it, so you're on the right track! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Found my Oct. 1982 issue of Trains.
The feature article is about the NORTH Shore Line "Electroliners" that ran between 1941 and 1963 under wire for Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee Railroad. They were two sets of articulated streamlined interurbans and resembled the Zephyrs in their outward appearnce.
Mr t__:^)
Bingo! I rode the Electroliners several times as a child when they were still in service on the North Shore, as well as after they came to Philadelphia on the Red Arrow (and were known as Liberty Liners. What an experience!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thurston -
I know of the article you are speaking. There was a two section article on the famed CNS&M "Electroliners". It was either SEP/OCT or OCT/NOV 1982 issues of "Trains" Magazine. The article was written by the Electroliner and CNS&M historian, John D. Horachek. John was a young CNS&M brakeman/conductor in the roads last years. He was able to rescue hundreds of North Shore items from the Highwood Shops before they were destroyed.
There has been a story circulating for years that John is writing a book on the two famous trains. Knowing John's writings, I'm sure it would be a very good book.
BTW, John Horachek writes articles pertaining to his work experiences on the North Shore in "First & Fastest" published quaterly by the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society. Their address is PO Box 346, Chicago, IL 60690-0346.
Anyone who is a fan, or wants to know more about Midwest interurbans, Chicago streetcar operations, or the Chicago 'L' may be interested in a sample copy. Yearly subscriptions are $20 for four issues.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, Thanks for the additional detail !
In case you missed my reply on another thread it was Oct/Nov '82, and author was John Horachek.
Mr t__:^)
I was born in South Bend and remember the South Shore all too well. In my day, the Big Orange cars terminated downtown at LaSalle Ave. and Michigan St. with a storage yard east of the St. Joseph River. My aunt was a regular commuter on it for three years, and my mother would take it to Chicago on occasion. I remember waiting for her return train and seeing its bright headlight come into view as it crawled through the streets of South Bend.
I rode on it once, on a round trip to Chicago on April 1 and 2, 1967, two weeks before we left for New Jersey. Two big differences now are the elevated station in Gary right next to the Toll Road, and the stretch which ducks beneath the Toll Road just to the east of the Wilbur Shaw/Knute Rockne service areas which is now double-tracked.
The East Chicago bypass, where the tracks parallel the Toll Road, is very intriguing. I remember racing an eastbound Big Orange train in August of 1979. The last Big Orange cars were retired four years later.
I rode it once around 1980 for the USC-Notre Dame football game at
South Bend. It was an 8 car chartered train filled with football fans. I remember some of the USC alumni were buying the conductor's
hats for $100 apiece!
By the way, one set of Electroliners live at the Illinois Railway
Museum in Union. I don't know if the other set survived.
The other set survives in Rockhill Furnace, Pennsylvania, in rather decrepit condition (although slated for restoration, I understand), in the Libertyliner livery they wore while running on the Philadelphia and Western's Norristown Line (now SEPTA).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Notre Dame and Southern Cal (I purposely use that moniker because of my intense dislike for USC) play in Los Angeles during even-number years, so you must be referring to 1979 or 1981. Charles White won the Heisman in '79 with Marcus Allen blocking for him, while Allen won it in '81. Do you remember who was coaching Notre Dame? Dan Devine was there in 1979; by 1981, it was Gerry Faust (what a wuss!)
At one time, the South Shore connected with another interurban line that went west to Mishwaka, etc.
A total of 23 new pictures were added today at TransiTALK in the NYC Bus, NYC Subway, & NJ Transit sections of the page, CHECK IT OUT!
http://geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
Trevor Logan
I don't know. I just saw this here.
Do you like it?
No.
Let me qualify that.
1) Yes, the current Penn station is a dump. It needs to be replaced
2) The propesed design has many faults.
3) It's too far west to be useful - you'll have to walk for your LIRR/NJT/subway connections. Bad Thing (tm)
4) It's AFIK, Amtrak only. Amtrak is getting cut loose in 2002. IMHO, it's not worth wasting money on a new station for them until they can prove that they'll be around for a few years.
5) Why, oh WHY, do we feel this pressing need to recreate" the old Penn station. It's gone (almost). We screwed up bigtime. The PRR got the last laugh. Lets demolish the current SG/Offic building/dump combo and start over with a new design.
6) It doesn't address the train area, which is, IMHO one of the most lacking and ugly parts of Penn (and GCT too).
7) It's going to tear up ANOTHER historic building. This would be akin to us demolishing the Empire State Buyilding, and then chopping up the Chrysler building to look like it because we felt stupid about chopping up the Empire State Building.
8) It doesn't address any of the short commings of the current Penn station.
9) It still leaves the current Penn station here.
I'd love to see a new Penn Station, but this propsal just isn't it - and guts another historic building in the process.
I think someone will take over the Northeast Corridor if Amtrak is dismantled, but I agree, we should see how the situation develops before spending money on a new station. Unless they're hiding something from us, I don't think anyone in the Federal Government has a clue about what to do if Amtrak doesn't meet the target in 2002.
To rebuild on the original site would require purchasing the existing buildings and would be very expensive. The has been some talk by Guiliani of building a new Garden next to the Javitis Center, but the existing Garden would be replaced by an office building or hotel.
Until Madison Square Garbage is demolished, I will not be a Knicks or Rangers fan until that monstrosity is thrown to the ash heap of history along with the graves of the absent-minded architects who designed it. Until then, my railroading needs will be addressed at Jamaica or Newark.
They should just rebuild the original Penn Sta. where it was (or at least the western end of it), if they move MSG. Then, it the Post Office is converted already, you could just have a double RR sta., and LIRR would have the classic atation look back too.
I think we can discuss the plan on its own merits w/o worrying much about the preservation argument. All the public spaces of the GPO (which is to say, the Eighth Avenue steps and the mail foyer, and, I trust, the goofy Postal Museum) will be preserved and continue to function as the city's 24-hour post office; mail operations will have to be reorganized in the interior, but the USPS is watching to make sure it will suit their needs. Many of the functions the GPO was built for are now handled at the Morgan building further down Ninth Avenue, so there really is some room in the building for Amtrak.
The original, landmarked structure is the part on Eighth Avenue, extending about a third of the way down the block. The only visible changes to it will be the station entrances in the corners beside the steps, which are currently empty pits below sidewalk level. Concourses will be opened in the interior court, which is not now open to the public (and also empty, of course). The big glass structure and taxi entrances will be in the space between the McKim, Mead and White building and the 1935 addition. So I see the project not as gutting a landmark, but as giving new usefulness to a big (if handsome) white elephant.
Whether it's worthwhile on its own merits is a tougher question. I'm not too concerned about moving a block west; the platforms aren't moving, so it shouldn't be that much harder to get to the IRT. As long as ticket machines and track info is available in the NJT section, habitual riders will probably come and go from Seventh Avenue without using the new building. And Ninth Avenue is often easier for cabs than Seventh. But I do see it as a cosmetic project. Sure, Penn's a dump, but it's not broken, and there are probably more worthwhile things to do than start fixing it. Nevertheless, Amtrak is getting the money from Congress (assuming it does) for this purpose only, so they might as well do it. I'd rather have the new station than an F-22.
Looks better than that cathedral of illiteracy, madison square garden.
Marx was wrong about a lot of things, including "Religion is the opium of the people" He was wrong Sports is the opium of the people. Too bad they tore down the real Penn Station for that monstrosity
I AGREE, When Penn Station is scheduled to be demolished I will VOLUNTEER to tear that piece of Garbage, Madison Square Garbage, to pieces.
I hope that when you guys and gals tear down what you call Madison Square Garbage, you will find my younger brother a new job. My brother works there as a carpnter in Union 608 and changes the Garden from hockey to basketball to the circus to wrestling, you catch my drift. He has a wife and a daughter and two sons to support.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
He'll just be transferred to the new one next to Javits Ctr. That's the only case in which the current MSG would be demolished.
I've always wondered how that's done. Anyway, there will still be a Madison Square Garden (hopefully a homage to the 1911 Stanford White construction w/ rooftop restaurant). It will probably be above the open air rail yards that the NJT passes through.
"Sports is the opium of the people. Too bad they tore down the real Penn Station for that monstrosity "
Not only did they tear down Penn Station, but the rubble was dumped in the Jersey Meadows to build......MEADOWLANDS!!!!
Sports is truly the opiate of the people. And the Dealers own the teams and bleed the cities/states to build the palaces.
Don't get me started.
Oh,yes. To this day, I refuse to get off in the basement of a sports complex.
If you want to see more of this proposal, you can view a three dimensional model of it at the Museum of Modern Art.
Other than 8981-9152 on the R33, who has a list of mismatched pairs for the Redbirds (R26,R28,R29,R33,R36) and for the R44, R46, R62 and R68 types....
BTW, I know there is at least one mismatched set on the R62...1431-1432-1433-1434-1438.
I show the following:
R33 #9212 with #9115.
R33 #9130 with #9225.
R36 #9348 with #9411 (this is temporary until fire damage to #9349 and anticlimber damage to #9410 is repaired)
R46 #5614-5615 along with #6204-6205.
R44 #5316-5317-5405-5418. (#5319 fire damaged)
R44 #5302-5303-5262-5263.
R44 #5246-5247-5337-5336.
R44 #5260-5261-5277-5276.
R40M/R42 #4460 with #4665 (the Willy B Survivors)
R40 #4426 with #4429.
R40 #4258 with #4261.
R44 information is courtesy of Steve Kreisler.
Wayne
Wayne: Thanks for the info. I'm old friends with 9115-9212 having ridden her many times over the last 30 years.Curiously I see 9130-9225 much less often.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I seen R33 #9225-9130 this past tuesday at Freeman St & i should have take pictures.
Peace Out
Meaney
I forgot to mention two other mismatched pairs (outside the R32 series):
R44 #5404-5403-5479-5478
R42 #4684 with #4727.
Wayne
I show the following:
R33 #9212 with #9115.
R33 #9130 with #9225.
R36 #9348 with #9411 (this is temporary until fire damage to #9349 and anticlimber damage to #9410 is repaired)
R46 #5614-5615 along with #6204-6205.
R46 #5616-5617 along with #6202-6203 (omitted from first post)
R44 #5316-5317-5405-5418. (#5319 fire damaged)
R44 #5302-5303-5262-5263.
R44 #5246-5247-5337-5336.
R44 #5260-5261-5277-5276.
R40M/R42 #4460 with #4665 (the Willy B Survivors)
R40 #4426 with #4429.
R40 #4258 with #4261.
R44 information is courtesy of Steve Kreisler.
Wayne
When I will be ready to run on my new tracks? I want to find a real home. I been shiftng back and forth. From Coney Island to Brighton Beach. From Astoria to 57-7. From 57-7 to 57-6. I want to find a real home. From 2Av to Queensbridge back to 57-6. From 57-6 back to Queensbridge. WHEN OH WHEN ILL BE READY TO RUN TO MY NEW HOME?????
Q: 21St/Queensbridge---Brighton Beach, Bklyn via Express
I was wondering how many of you know the opening
scene in Woody Allen"s Stardust Memories made in 1980. It is not one of his well known films, and some people took it to be an attack on his fans. I'm not going to describe the actual opening scene other than to say that he's sitting in one of the old Erie Lackawana electrics looking at the other people in his car, and then looking out the window and seeing people in another train. Did it strike anybody else out there?
paul C-49 Mack Bus wrote:
> I was wondering how many of you know the
> opening scene in Woody Allen's Stardust Memories
> made in 1980. It is not one of his well known films,
> and some people took it to be an attack on his fans.
I saw it on opening day. And, yes, I'd say there was good reason to have seen it as an attack on his fans. (Which is not to say that Woody has not made some great films since; but that recurring line something like "I loved your early films. The funny ones." represented a conscious break with his earlier madcap stuff, together with a calculated slap at those who had not kept pace with Woody's personal and cinematic growth, or deterioration, however one wishes to look at it.
> I'm not going to describe the actual opening scene
> other than to say that he's sitting in one of the
> old Erie Lackawana electrics looking at the other
> people in his car, and then looking out the window
> and seeing people in another train. Did it strike
> anybody else out there?
I must admit that, although I'm usually pretty aware of rail detail in films, I didn't remember that it was EL. I recall some sort of heavyweight coach, which at that time could have been EL or maybe still Jersey Central.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
It's Woody Allen's personal life that has deteriorated, and it bothers me, because he's such a symbol of the city, and he went from a symbol of smart and a little strange to kinky and a lot strange. Of course, the ultimate New York guy is Marv Albert, but lets not bite off more than we can chew.
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll stick with close, but no cigar. By now, most of you have heard about Mr. Bill and Hillary buying a house in Chappaqua. That town will never be the same again. My brother-in-law's parents have or had a summer home there. My sister got married there.
Monica will probably be spotted at the train station.
OK, since I am allowed one "major" activity during the weekend so I don't do work the whole weekend, I was wondering if I could have a list of the trains that would possibly running Double-Deckers, time and line please. Thanks a lot lot!!!
Peace Out
-Clayton
With the exception of a few trains over Labor Day weekend, I've seen nothing but DDs on the Montauk Line for a couple of months--noth Scoots and long distance.
Also the last time I looked, both Port Jeff shuttles (one to Huntington, the other to Hicksville) have been DDs.
No guarantees, but this is what I've seen.
I'd try Montauk, since there are more of these, and if one somehow isn't a DD, the next should be.
Click for:
Weekend schedule eastbound
Weekend schedule westbound
I might have missed the strand on the flooding that happened recently. From the Bronx, it was VERY hard to get to the City. The entire city was a mess. The 1,2,3,4,5,6,9 were all out of service in city and were running extremly slow on the elevated Bronx sections. How does one of the largest cities in the world get thrown into chaos when 2 inches of rain drops. From the newspaper information, the cities sewage and drainage network is ment to handle 2 inches of rain I think in about 8 hours. Yes, the rain did pour, but there must be alternatives to transportation when events occur like that. You should have seen the fights at bus stops to get on buses and all the unhappy passengers trying to get to work or trying to get home. It is very serious, but u have to laugh it off.
So, my questions, what plans (if any) are taken for flooding situations such as this one? Is it just Bus service that is beefed up?
Next question- Late nights, i know many trains are transported to different yards and areas for storage for the morning rush, but why were #1's,9's,4's, and 6's rolling by on the #2 line? Off course they were out of service, but what were they doing so far from their lines in the first place? Does it have to do with changing car assignments?
Also, their are work trains that passes by most every night (sometimes more then once), one consistes of two redbirds pulling it looks life flat platforms to carry (waste?) Another work train consisted of an R-62 look-a-like only with 1 door on each side followed by flatbeds and another R62 look-a-like. What are the work trains used for? Is it just for transporting workers and materials?
Thx
Thomas
I hopped a plane just as the rain started, and didn't hear about the mess until I got back to town. They turned around my brother-in-laws Metro-North train at Mount Vernon, and he never made it to work. It seems that the big storm hit the Bronx and lower Westchester, not Brooklyn (the borough with no weather).
Speaking of Out of Service, today Amtrak was delayed for over three hours in the Wilmington, Delaware area due to flooding. I was tracking the progress of our recent houseguest returning home to North Carolina on the Carolinian today - she boarded at Metropark on time (6:38 AM), was 12 minutes late into Trenton, and 3 hours 16 minutes late into Philadephia. Arrival in Rocky Mount was at 6:01 PM, 3 hours 22 minutes behind. (This from the Amtrak web site.) She loved the trip north but somehow I think her opinion will have changed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm - I wonder what happened to Amtrak.
One does not often hear about flooding on old PRR lines. They are so overbuilt, that they usually ride it out very comfortably above the floodwaters. Unlike, say, drawbridges, the ROW itself does not suffer so much from the years of low/non maintainance...
An update: our friend called last night (while we were at services) and left a long message, which my wife didn't mention until this morning. Apparently they did make it into Philadelphia, contrary to what the Amtrak web site indicated, and were held there. The passengers were told it was because of problems with downed power lines near Wilmington. Eventually, they moved out of the station under electric power, a diesel was attached for a few miles to tow, and then at another station (Wilmington? I don't know) returned to electric power until they got to DC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are several Amtrak trains notorious for being late. There is the Three Rivers (to Pittsburgh). Many days 2-3 and more hours late. I think the rivers must be the Nile, The Danube and the Yangtzee :-) (YES- I do know the real rivers!)
The Silver Meteor/ Silver Star to Florida is also often 2-3 or more hours late. One day last week, the tv monitor at Newark Penn said that the Crescent (New Orleans/Birmingham/Atlanta) was 8 hours late!
I al also noticing that several Metro Liner trains are also starting to be 15-20-30 minutes late on an increasing frequency.
aren't delays on any mode inevitable? Why are trains considered to be held to a different standard versus air travel? IF someone is delayed for say 6 hours either on the plane or at the airport i've never heard anyone say "I'll never fly again!"
Excellent thought!!!
Actually, there are a few of us who hope we never have to get on an airplane again - but since that's the only alternative to not seeing my grandson, I'm sure I'll fly again soon! Most people seem to take air travel disruption as part of the routine, but the trains are reliable enough that a major disruption is the exception, not the norm. And, in this case, the trip north last week was our friend's first journey on a train in almost forty years. We just talked to her a few minutes ago and, as it turns out, she wasn't particularly bothered by the delay - apparently she had already found someone to talk to, so she was "in her element", as it were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Larry --
Interesting that you had the same experience that I did. I was on a 7AM flight out of LGA that morning, and although I noticed that the roads were beginning to flood the trip to the airport was otherwise uneventful and my flight left right on time. Of course, the delays that plagued LGA all day eventually caused all flights back from Chicago to be cancelled and I had to spend the night.
One thing that I did notice from the chatter on the news and here at SubTalk is that everyone's favorite whipping boy -- the LIRR -- seemed to hold up much better than many other area agencies.
Chuck
9/12/99
Long Island itself didn't belted with rain as bad as points west.
Bill Newkirk
<>
sounds like the "Trash trains?"
1/9 trains on the 2 line go to 239th yard car wash
#6 trains laying up to 239 yard with 239 yard subway cars
#4 sometimes send its trains to 239 yard car wash also when Concourse yard car wash is closed.
long time waiting for the new subway cars. where are they going..what lines and when..if ever are they supposed to be year. heard september of 99 and nothing here yet. please let me know. as a rider on the Q, i dont like the bench seats on the r-40 and wish for the r-46 or r-68 on that line. but if we geetting the news cars,tell me(hopefully befreo the 63rd street tunnel is complete)
Nobody likes the seats. They're the best trains because of the front window. Tall people - short people we all can see out
The new r-143's are comming, but you won't ride thwm on the Q, because they're already assigned to the L. You surely won't ride the R-142's in the Q because they are assigned to the IRT lines 2 and 5.
Not even I like the seats on the Slant R40s. They're the most uncomfortable since the fiberglas benches on the R-7 and R-9 Eastern Division clunkers. The A/C and the RF window make up for it, though.
Wayne
Oh, come on now. Those old timers had a charm all their own with those marvelous sounds. (You've got to check out heypaul's tape - it puts you right on the train.)
Your reference reminds me of an article which appeared in the Daily News in early 1970. Some TA bigwig was out and about on the IND Queens line giving it a once-over. When he saw some token vending machines which dispensed the old 20-cent tokens, he wanted to get rid of them right then and there. The fare had just gone up to 30 cents. Next, he paused in front of an E train of R-6s and referred to it as a clinker. The he made a comment about poor maintenance when a train pulled in, supposedly of R-27s, and only one door leaf opened.
The MTA brass hadn't figured out back then that if you don't maintain the cars, then they're all going to be clinkers and all will have door panels that don't open. The MTA spent far more money trying to paint every car in the system their blue-and-white logo colors in the early 70s (not to mention the blue and white BMT station tiles from Hell) than they ever did on preventive maintenance.
The same can be said about automobiles as well. My R-32 of a Jeep is now at 373,000 miles and counting.
I wish I had kept some of those newspaper articles about the subway back then.
My iMac has lost its cookies and we are trying this message to see if they can be restored by posting a message.
That will reset your name and email address. To fix your message display parameters just click the Change Message Display link on the main subtalk page.
-Dave
I still have the problem. Everything was fine with Netscape 3.1. I was told that I should not use 3.1 with an iMac. When I went to Netscape 4.0.5 I lost the name cookie but retained the Email address portion. The iMac has spent four days in the shop and was upgraded to Netscape Communicator 4.6. Old Netscape preferences and the old Magic Cookies were trashed. My attempt to reset things with my posting last night failed. I am back to what I call half a cookie. I have the Email address portion set, but no name. All other problems including frequent disconnects and lock-ups seem to have been corrected, I think. I am at a loss as to what else to try.
My last try and I won't bother you guys again. I am posting this on Internet Explorer which is also available in an iMac. I have a feeling that the same problem exists here.
Has everyone set Netscape / Internet Exploder to accept cookies in their preferences? :) I've not had this problem on my G3 400, though when I moved over to it I did have to reset all my prefs (And to make all the PC people here Patterson green with envy - that's the only snag I had going from a 7600/132 to a G3 :)
Other than that, I'd try reinstalling the web browser - there should be no reason why an iMac should have these problems, as netscape doesn't really care what Mac your running on (the MacOS seperates the hardware from the software very well, unlike a certain other system...)
The current Macs seem to have that habit - although it only seems to be the one for SubTalk, at least on my G3. If you find a solution let me know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Really? Using what browser? My G3 using Netscape 4.6 has never had that problem.
It's a version of Netscape, approximately 4.5, I think, mildly customized by the @Home folks and furnished with my cable modem service. They call it Netscape@Home 1.6.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Using an iMac is your first mistake. If you must use a Mac (Personally, I prefer PCs) get yourself a G3, and load it with memory. It'll beat the pants off a PII-400.
-Hank :)
I'll disagree - although I have a G3 it's only because I need the larger monitor for my aging eyes. You can load an iMac with the same amount of memory that I have in my G3 (128 Mb) and the current iMac has a 333 MHz processor (my G3 has a 350). And you don't have to worry about Bill Gates' nonsense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm glad I have WebTV. Don't understand any of this 'puter talk!!!
Web TV is good but carries a negitive stigma around here.
I've been using WebTV and another PC alternately since July. At the end of the month we'll finally have a PC at home and we'll lose the very limited WebTV.
WebTV's bad for a few reasons:
A. Slow, Slow, Slow and SLOW! It takes, literally, about 7-11 minutes for SubTalk to load completely as opposed to 2 on a slow day with the PC I'm using right now.
B. You can't download ANYTHING!
C. Any kind of long typing isn't worth the effort with the constant scrolling(from the bottom)if you lose your place or hit the space bar by accident. I made 80% of my webpage over WebTV. Oy!
D. Picture quality doens't seem as sharp.
It's good if all you're using it for is doing goofyness on the net. But if you really want to down and dirty with anything, WebTV is not for you.
(Besides, TV's were made for watchin', not for surfin'!)
What do you expect? WebTV is owned by the Billy boy Gates!
I actually never used subtalk until a month or so ago, because every time I tried, it was unbearably slow.
Once I tried using lynx, it is _so_ much faster in practice, and much easier to navigate. keep my fingers on the keyboard, arrow keys to choose a post, hit enter, read post, left arrow to go back, etc. For those of you who can use lynx or a text-mode browser, I heartily recommend it..
Subtalk actually loads faster with webTV than with my PC. It depends where you are.
I have WebTv and I never have had any problems with SubTalk. It usually loads right away. I have it set for 2 days messages (the default), when I had it set for more (such as eons) it took much longer to load.
Oh I did that too. 2 days is fine if you're a regualar poster. The "eons" option takes up to 4 minutes to load even at the best of times.
That's because there's several thousand messages for it to index and thread. If you set your options to Chronological rather than any form of Threaded it should run even faster. Plus you get all the unread ones bubbled to the top, so you start at the bottom of the ones you haven't read and work up.
I don't like the iMac for sevedral reasons. First and formost, it's limited expandability. It's not a machine that you can grow with. I think that we have now reached an apex with home PCs. I don't see most users neededing anything more powerful than a PII-400, which is now entry-level. With the iMac, you can't get a bigger HDD, you can't add much in the way of internal componants. You're limited to USB attachments. If the monitor burns out, you're screwed. (In fact, this is a problem with any 'All-in-One' system) If the computer burns out, you can't re-use the monitor.
-Hank
Mac advertises it that way - G3 and G4 models too - but my G3 actually has two serial ports on the back that aren't mentioned anywhere in the literature. I haven't looked at an iMac or a G4 to know about them. And USB is the wave of the future, so Mac is simply on the leading edge (again!) in that regard. There are USB hard drives out there too - not as fast as an interal one using the current technology but faster than the internal drives of only three or four years ago. I also have a Toshiba Tecra 8000 (notebook [laptop]) running Windows NT from the office and it too has a USB connection. For someone who wants to take up the minimum amount of space and can live with a 15" monitor the iMac is really an excellent choice; indeed, if they made one with a 17" tube I'd probably have bought that instead of my tower, just so as not to take up all that space under the desk. And it costs one heck of a lot less!
But, to stay at least slightly related to the spirit of this board, the photos on this site DO look better on the bigger monitor :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill Gates' nonsense is nothing compared to Bill Clinton's nonsense. Not even close, and never mind the cigar.
Tried to post this earlier, thought I did, but it never appeared.
I took my wife and 3 yr old son by car to the park and marina next to the Oyster Bay station today. Little did she know but it was for railfanning, to check out the small yard of diesels and bi-levels & check out the unused turntable!! Well I broke down in the parking lot, wouldn't start. (Electrical, turned over, no spark, probably distributor) Well a tow truck showed, he refused to take more than 2 passengers. I put them in the truck and decided to take the train. Caught the 8:19PM diesel (Thank G-d, the bi-levels too modern for the line.) As it was aready night I couldn't see a damn thing out the window. A shame, I'm gonna have ta come back in daylight. Train went very slow, I felt like a character on Pettycoat Junction!! Lots of crossings with whistles blowing. I never realized how close together Glen St and Glen Cove were. (Also Sea Cliff) Felt like I was on the 7Av Exp from Chambers to Park PL!!! They have to be the closest apart stations on the whole LIRR. (Closer than Jamaica & the 'ol Union Hall Street!!
I changed at Mineola for the main line to Hicksville where I could catch a bus home to East Meadow. What a difference betw. the 2 trainrides. The electric on the main line was extra speedy. Unfortunately the train was about 10 min late & I missed the last bus to E.M. by about 3 min so I ended taking a cab!!!
This was the 1rst time on the line since a 2nd Grade fieldtrip by train to Oyster Bay in '59 or '60.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
my COLOR QUIZ,
What a shame. At least with an old style distributor, you had a chance at a successful start out of the parking lot where as those Kawasaki techs would still be scratching their heads if it were the DEC30.
From what I understand, the shortest distance between LIRR stations is on the Long Beach branch between Centre Avenue and Oceanside. I believe those two stations are not much more than a mile apart -- with the East Rockaway station sandwiched in between.
From what my father tells me, in the earlier days of the LIRR there were actually 4 stations along this stretch -- Oceanside (at its current location), Atlantic Avenue (just south of the current East Rock), East Rock (just north of the current East Rock) and Centre Avenue (just north of the current station) -- I believe the four were merged into three sometime in the late 40's.
Having grown up on the OB branch of the LIRR, I was used to close together stations.
But then when I started riding the MBTA Commuter Rail, I found this situation was unique to the LIRR. On the Lowell Branch that I use every day to go to work, stations "Wedgemere" and "Winchester Center" are just a half mile apart. The diesel-drawn push-pull train doesn't even get up to 20 mph between stations. I think the only reason that both survive is that parking is limited (and maxed out) at each. Removing one station would remove half of the available parking.
[re two close-together MBTA stations kept open for parking reasons]
Metro North found a solution to a similar problem on the Hudson line. There were two nearby stations (Montrose and one who's name escapes me) with very limited parking. So Metro North built a new station, Cortlandt, roughly between the two, which then were closed. Cortlandt was designed with ample parking, though whether it's still sufficient is another matter.
From what I've seen, the parking at Cortlandt has been more than sufficient. I used to frequently take Amtrak from NYC to Albany and noticed that the parking lot had numerous spaces available.
9/11/99
I believe those two closed stations were Montrose and Crugers
Bill Newkirk
Inwood and Far Rockaway are very close; so are Broadway and Murray Hill (they skip stop 'em weekdays)
Others are Floral Park and Bellerose; Garden City and Country Life Press, the former Republic and current Pinelawn.
Wayne
[Others are Floral Park and Bellerose; Garden City and Country Life Press, the former Republic and current Pinelawn.]
I had the railfan window on the 5:41 express to Ronkonkoma last Friday, and out of curiosity I checked the running times between some of the bypassed stations. Merillon Avenue to Mineola was less than a minute, while Carle Place to Westbury was about 65 seconds.
Although all those mentioned are very close especially Garden City to Coun. Life Press, Unless I fell asleep and didn't realize it, Glen Cove & Glen Street seemed the closest I've ever seen!!! Almost like Chambers & Park Pl on the IRT 7Av exp!!!
>>>I fell asleep and didn't realize it, Glen Cove &
Glen Street seemed the closest I've ever seen!!! <<<
There was a plan by the MTA to close Glen Street, but it was thwarted; today, the old station building is being renovated. Mill Neck, on the same OB Branch, was not so lucky.
The Sea Cliff and Glen street stations are litteraly next to each other to. When I was a kid, I'd watch a train go into Sea Cliff, then head down the hill and over to Glen Street on my mountain bike, and watch it come out of Glen Street. I don't know WHY thos station are that close to each other. I gave up trying to figure oit out long ago.
My original posting that started this thread on Friday was about See Cliff/Glen St/& Glen Cove
Laurelton and Rosedale are very close together.
Massapequa and Massapequa Park stations are very close together; you can easily see one from the other. Platforms and parking lots at both are extremely crowded mornings. Not only that, the Massapequa Park lot is only available to village residents, so this increases the pressure at Massapequa.
I don't remember off the top of my head all the names, but the stations on NJT's Morris & Essex line through the Oranges seem very close together.