greetings all,
i rented money train yesterday and i watched. it was really good. but it made me wonder about something. What happens to a train that had run someone over. i would imagine it could be evidence or something like that. and what about the T/O? Does the TA (jeez, all them T's) do anything for them? not happy subjects but subjects just the same.
Thanx,
Matt
When there is a 12-9, a man under incident, both the train and crew are removed from service. The train is moved to its' home inspection yard for inspection. There's a formalized checklist that must be filled out, signed and dated. Legally,that form attests to the condition of the train immediately after the incident. (It would be impractical to hold the entire consist out of service untill all law suits are settled.) As for the crew, they are taken for Incident testing that includes screening for drugs and/or alcohol. After that the crew is entitled to medical leave due to stress.
I'm planning to visit the city on a weekday soon to get photos of the Redbirds in action. Can someone advise me as to when the Redbirds operate on the No. 4 train? Do I have any chance of finding a few trains out during the midday hours?
Thanks!
- Jim (RailBus)
You do have a good chance of getting a Redbird on the No.4 Line during Middays and Rush Hours. But you may have to wait for one. Your chances are 1 Redbird out of 6 Silvers.
Pelham Bay Dave SR
Thanks for the info, Dave. I know about the waiting - I was out on the No. 6 line one Saturday last month, and there were only two Redbird trains out that day. But I caught one of them coming around the big curve at Whitlock Ave, so I'm not complaining!
- Jim (RailBus)
There are more Redbirds on the #6 than the #4. The #6 has 124 R29 Redbirds, plus 80 R36 Redbirds for a total of 204. The #4 only has 84 R33 Redbirds.
The #2 and #5 have great photo locations up and down both lines - and they are just about ALL Redbird.
Wayne
It's the same thing on the A. I've had to let as many as three or four trains of R-44s go by before getting a train of R-38s.
Does anybody have a NYC Subway Map from Spring or Fall 1985? Please post on SubTalk
Are you looking for a copy or just some information from it?
Larry,RedbirdR33
I am looking for a copy.
Why, pray tell did you choose the worst car to ever travel the system as your handle?
Slow, under powered and gaudy looking, they have a well deserved nickname amongst crews: ****can! There are some guys who won't pick certain lines to avoid them!
At the very most, I could say the brakes are decent. Everything else sucks. At least with the R-16 it was only the G.E. propelled cars. The Westinghouse cars were OK. But all the ****cans stink. (no pun intended)
Please, relax the language. Lets try to be a little more professional around here. I am going to take the liberty to make your post a little more p.c.
How dare you defame Westinghouse Amrails fine workmanship. Didn't 2755 look rather sharp after it's delivery? How about that 25** car on the Concourse last month with the roasted marshmellows on board? I knew it was the WEB TV folks out there! I have made plenty of soap on those cars and my family was ever so happy when I worked there. With my contract and rulebook in hand I should dedicate myself as R-68 #2, except as #2, I would have to get rid of the full width cab and #1 is obviously taken. Oh well. I only hope that the replacements for the R32 and up cars are as great as those French and Japanese cars with their grace and speed to boot. Some of us have pensions to worry about, you know.
Thank Mr. 68 for providing service to my line. No offense R46.
N Broadway Local
I am not a fan of the R68 at all. They are not as attractive as the R68A's, now those are really nice cars! But to be honest as long as the subway car is funtioning and has has A.C in the summer and heating in the winter, it's an ok car to me!
Peace
DaShawn
I have revised Spring 1985. Copyright 1979. Why?
The design which incorporated single colors for the various trunk lines made its debut in 1979.
I have revised 1978, copyright 1972.
Just curious: is that the edition with the note about Jamaica service being cut back to 121st St? I remember seeing such a map in the fall of 1985.
I am writing this E-mail in reference to the experimental R-110A's
that are sidelined indefinitly up in the Bronx. Since they are out of service,what is there future. Do they go back to Kawasaki ? Or are they so oddball that they can never run again without a heavy input of money. I doubt if the T.A. will strip them for parts since they
aren't compatible with anything out there. My suggestion or anybody's of course involves big bucks. Since they are so oddball,why not rebuilt them as non-high technology cars,(R-62/62A's) and let them spend the rest of their lives on the Grand Central Shuttle ?? I know they are 5 car units but to balance out the numbers,an extra car body could be fabricated so all three tracks have similar equipment. The 62's could be freed up and return to mainline.
What other alternative is there besides letting them lay up for years ?,scrapping them. Let's not forget the Gas Turbine cars used on the LIRR and Metro North. They were oddbal,but could be rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder as a straight electric and place amongst the ranks to replaced other wrecked M-1's. Not so, they were scrapped. The carbodies were okay unless I am unaware any revelations. So come on subtalkers!! What are your suggestions? And while we are compiling suggestions,then we gotta come up with some new ones for the R-110B's.
Let's no forget,one unit (3-cars) are out so parts from them can keep the others going. How about this! Dedicated equipment for the New and improved Franklin Avenue Shuttle !!
Bill Newkirk
The use of the B division cars for the Franklin Avenue shuttle makes sense - so bleepin' much sense that we can be sure the TA will never do it. As for the A division cars, perhaps they can go back to Kawasaki and be rebuilt as mechanically identical units to the R-142s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe the 110A's will end up like the R 11's.
Alas, they have tentatively put ten R68s aside for the new Franklin Shuttle service, to run in pairs. The platforms for the Franklin Shuttle will only be long enough to hold two R68s. Why? Who knows!
Wayne
Close but I think I'd opt to remove one non-cab car from each unit, for parts. Then assign the two four-car units to the Grand Central Shuttle.
/*What other alternative is there besides letting them lay up for years
?,scrapping them. Let's not forget the Gas Turbine cars
used on the LIRR and Metro North. They were oddbal,but could be
rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder as a straight electric and
place amongst the ranks to replaced other wrecked M-1's. Not so, they were scrapped. The carbodies were okay unless I am
unaware any revelations. */
The Turbine test cars for the LIRR didn't use standard M-1 bodies - the first was a rebuilt train car body. The second was a faily modified M-1 body - with low platfor capeability, and a large door on the side for the engine compartment...
I have a question can these go on the 7 line.If yes put it on the 7 line.
Yes they can but why the #7 line? One bastardized train will not be an asset for any line.
In addition, the R-110A is a 10-car set with no spare cars, but the #7 has 11-car trains (except in summer).
David
Today i add 11 more subway pictures on my page and more to come. Also i will add more bus pictures tomorrow. Check out my Subway Page.
Peace Out
Meaney
I just add more pictures on Division "A" Cars page and check out my Subway's Page.
Peace Out
Meaney
Great stuff - Good job all around!
Chuck Greene
Cool pics.
Your Flushing Line sots came out better than mine(For some reason, every Flushing line shot I take comes out
obstructed. Guess it's my luck).
Nice photos!
A couple of small observations: car 3875 is actually an R-32; the R-38s are numbered 3950-4149.
#1575 remains an R-7 from a mechanical and electrical standpoint, and could not m. u. with the R-10s. Cosmetically, it looks like an R-10. Call it an identity crisis.
Thank Steve B and i will change it. Just sign up my dreambook on Bus & Subway Page. Enjoy it!!!!
Peace Out
Meaney
David,
Nice site! You may want to note that the R68 cars in the 5000 series are, in fact, R68-A's.
I rode the Broad St. Subway today and marvelled at the OPTO operation. The operator has to jump up out of his seat to open the right side doors, and completely move to the left side of the cab and
open the left hand doors on center island platforms. KUDOS to the SEPTA operators for such hard work! After closing the doors, on either side, notch the controller up and off we go!
Chuck Greene
Hello Chuck -
At least in SEPTA land the "Operator" jumps up to get the job done and speed along the service.
Here in Chicago, members of ATU 308 are still bitter about the OPTO thing and "quite a few" are reluctant to provide a "rapid" transit service while performing door duty.
While I can sympathize with the union, I can NOT understand why they take their frustration and anger out on the traveling public - who pay the fares and are the reason for the existance of jobs on the CTA. They, the union, just don't get it!
Union and management problems should be between union and management, not taken out on the rider. What the traveling public (note I didn't use the word customer) wants and what they pay for is - safe, convenient and reliable service.
Chuck, hope and your family are doing well in the heat. Relief is on the way, as the weather "broke" here yesterday afternoon. It is actually pleasant here in Chi-town today and it is the first time in three weeks I've shut the A/C off and opened the windows.
Jim K.
Chicago
Over how long a time span was OPTO introduced in Chicago? Are all trains OPTO? Do all OPTO trains have full width cabs? Did any conductors get laid off because of OPTO? If not, what kinds of jobs did they get?
Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. (Anyone want to answer the same questions for Phila., I'd like that, too)
Chicago's first OPTO began on April 2, 1961. This was an off-peak service on the Evanston shuttle, using cars 25-28 and 39-50, on which the operator's cab had been modified to permit on-board fare collection from boarding passenger on the single-car trains. This ended by 1985, when Evanston trains began using two-car sets even off-peak.
Meanwhile, the Skokie Swift, inaugurated on April 20, 1964, had OPTO from the beginning, using high-speed cars 1-4, later also 23-26 and 29-30, and, by September 1964 the four articulated sets.
OPTO first appeared on multi-car trains with the inauguration of the Orange Line on October 31, 1993. This was followed by:
Brown Line (Ravenswood), February 6, 1995.
Green Line (Lake-Englewood/East. 63rd), June 22, 1997
Purple Line (Evanston, on its second go-round for OPTO, June 22, 1997
Blue Line (O'Hare-Forest Park/Douglas) and Red Line (Howard-Dan Ryan), November 9, 1997
At that point, the system was theoretically all-OPTO. However, a second person (not called a conductor; I forget CTA's terminology) rides the Blue and Red Line trains through the subway section to check that the doors are clear.
Alan Follett
So that means the T/O still operates the doors in the subway section, correct?
The T/O only operates the doors on trains in the subway when he/she is operating without a train attendant or whatever they offically being called.
Jim K.
Chicago
The official title of the subway conductors are called platform men. Why? I don't know.
BTW. Who are taking out their fustrations out on the public. Please give me examples. If any thing the majority of my co-workers have seemed to embrace one man operation.Especially those spoiled crybabys on the Ravenswood/Brown line.
So it reverts back to two-man operation in the subway as was done in the past.
Disclaimer: This is a factual reply only. I do NOT offer an opinion one way or the other on the subject of OPTO in Chicago!
On the Red Line, or Howard-Dan Ryan, the "conductor" boards the train at Fullerton southbound and operates the doors from North/Clybourn to Roosevelt Rd. They leave the train at Cermak(22nd)/Chinatown and wait for the next northbound train where the routine is reversed. The operator is in charge of opening/closing the doors between Howard and Fullerton and again from Cermak(22nd)/Chinatown to 95th. The "conductor" works the doors in the subway portion of the route. This is officially in effect when the number of cars in the train exceeds four (4).
On the Blue Line, or 54th/Cermak - Forest Park - O'Hare, the "conductor" boards the train at Division soubound and operates the doors from Chicago/Milwaukee to LaSalle. They leave the train at Clinton and wait for the next northbound where the routine is reversed. The operator is in charge of opening/closing the doors between 54th/Cermak, on the Douglas, and Forest Park, on the Congress to Clinton. He/she again picks up the responsibility at Division through to O'Hare. The "conductor" works the doors again in the subway portion of the route. The same car requirements as above rule.
Jim K.
Chicago
I get the picture. Thanks a lot!
Hi Jim:
Thanks for asking about us and we are supposed to get some cooler
weather tomorrow , but no rain in sight. We have a real drought
type emergency here.
Chuck Greene
Even though the Ridge spur line in dingy and underutilized even un rebuilt it is alot better then the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. Its also alot faster too!
Both the Franklin Shuttle and the Ridge Avenue spur are ancient anachronisms that should be closed and funds spent elsewhere on more needed rail service.
I do feel as though the Ridge Ave spur shoud close. Hey on a 16 min headway the cars do get full though.
I will be visting Phila. this week. The last time I was over there I was given a Education on there dangers that happened on OPTO trains.
A Motorman who was a Shop steward gave me a education how easy it is to get dragged. He closed down the train. Then He told me to pull the doors back. I was Able to get between the doors with the Indication light on. Well they might have modifyed those trains since my last visit. That was in 1991 and I was told the had a drag twice a mouth.
I witnessed a near drag at Pattison. The doors close and the train was about to move and someone was about to jump in between the cars but there was a SEPTA Policemen who got him off the chains in time.
Well I'll find out to see how there OPTO is now.
PEL BAY Dave Sr
That dragging stuff is scary. I do hope they have modified the operation somewhat.
Chuck Greene
I take it you were in the "railfan" seat(I say it that way because the seat is next to a barred, tinted glass window, behind the cab, behind the front of the car).
Yep, that conductor's always getting up and down. Must be tiring.
It's a shame you couldn't ride an express. On the Girard-North Philadelphia stretch(expresses slow down going through, but for some reason they don't stop) the train can get some good speed. The fastest
I've been on was at 64 mph between Olney and Erie.
Those trains can fly when they want to!
Thanks Steve:
While in local service, the trains are pretty slow, seemed to be a lot of yellow and red signals. I sure would like to ride an express some day! Thanks for your comments and thoughts.
Chuck Greene
You should also try the Ridge spur. While it's not as used, safe or even lit as the mainline, it's still fun to look at and ride(even with the abandoned Spring Garden station-the station entrance still exists and is constantly broken into).
Think of it as an underground Franklin Shuttle. Before renovation. Yikes!:)
Thanks , I have ridden the Ridge spur. It is kind of lonely and scary.
Chuck Greene
I gathered some information about the trains running and I did some subway-spotting myself for the three days I was in NYC (I came back to Boston just about two hours ago)
My findings:
The N had four different car types running on its tracks....the R32, the R40 Slant, the R68 (French) and the R68A (Japanese)...must be some record, four different distinct types on one single line! Anyone spot any R42s on the N?
I actually saw an R29 redbird on the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge station. Alas, all the 4 trains I've seen are the R62 type.
I will probably shout bloody murder on how they configured my home neighborhood line, the M was configured in R40 Slants of 4 cars! The M I am talking about is the Marcy to Metropolitan Ave one.
The Nassau S Shuttle, is also configured as 4 car units, but in R40Ms! OK, that is kinda reasonable, as it only has service to like half a dozen stations.
The Grand Central S is running on 4 car units from Livonia! The numbers were: 1930-1927-1942-1946. I remember they used to run 3-car units from Track 1. The 4 car unit came into Track 3.
OK, so here are my observations on what trains are currently running on now:
R29: 6 and R33: 2 (no R26, R28 or R36 redbirds seen).
R32: C, E and N (Note: I saw one mismatched pair on the C, the 3767-3650 mismatched pair.)
R38: A and C only.
R40 Slants: B, L, M, N and Q. (I actually saw a 6-car consist of the Q on the Coney Island yard. Does any other line other than the G run 6-car trains?)
R40M: Nassau S Shuttle only.
R42: L only.
R44: A only.
R46: F and R only.
R62: 4 only.
R62A: 1, 3 and Grand Central S only.
R68: (French) B (unconfirmed), D and N.
R68A: (Japanese) B and N only.
Well that is my observations for now. I only took statistics for the trains I actually saw in action for the 3 day period.
Nick C.
What did you see on the G line? When I was there I noticed R44/46's(I can't tell those damn things apart no matter how hard I try).
Sorry did not get to ride the G while I was there.
The numbers are one way to tell the R44s and R46s apart.
R44 numbers are from 5202 to 5479.
R46 numbers are from 5482 to 6258, with the numbers from 6208 to 6258 being even-only.
All R-44s are assigned to the A. All R-46s come from Jamaica Yard and are assigned to the E, F, G, and R lines.
On R-44s, the area where the blue band used to be is painted silver.
On R-46s, that same area is unpainted stainless steel.
R44s are manufactured by St. Louis, R-46 are manufactured by Pullman. R-44 have a gray stripe on the side, R-46 are smooth stainless steel. R-44 have glass panels beside the doors, R-46 do not. R-44s run on the A and Rockaway S (H). R-46 run on the F, G, R and sometimes E.
I have seen the NYCT-overhauled R42s on the N, mostly unit numbers in the high 4800s and all of the 4900s. There were a few stray R40Ms mixed in as well. Most of these can be found during mid-day and rush hour service.
If you keep a sharp eye out on the weekend, you MIGHT just run into a Slant R40 on the B.
The R26-R28 Redbirds live on the 5 and the R36 live on the 7, with 80 of them (ML and WF) assigned to the 6.
Wayne
I just came back from a 3-day NYC fantrip as well...In response to some of your observations, I didn't see any R42's on the N..I saw the R32, 68, and 40 all on consecutive trains(missed the 32 and 68 while at 4th Ave, rode the Slant 40). The Q did have some R42's running, but I didn't get a chance to ride one.
There is at least ONE Redbird train running on the 4. We saw it at least once....
I saw an oddity(I think)..there was trackwork on the Far Rockaway extension on the A so there were shuttles running. My friend and I got off at Broad Channel coming back when we saw an R32 set heading the other way and waited for it...I believe the last two cars were R38's
Oops, left a few things out.
Some of the R68's are still running as single units, as there are still obviously a lot of "mismatched" pairs out there.
This is very prevalent on the D, and pretty much exclusive to the D. All R68s on the N are already linked into 4 car sets in something like 2900-2901-2903-2902, so that the number divisible by 4 is the lowest car in the 4 car set. Only about (my observation) 10 to 15 percent of the R68s on the D are linked into 4 car units.
I also did take a small number of pics during subway spotting, even a couple of them of the decaying Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue station...very sad indeed. I hope the TA invests a good amount of money to rehab Stillwell Ave. I even took pics of about half a dozen cars (all of different types).
Nick C.
The 6 car consist of R40 slants with Q signs is does not mean they go down the road as 6 car trains. Cars are cut, and added by the yard motormen. Either those 6 cars were waiting for 4 others, or were waiting to go into the barn themselves for repairs/inspection........There are curently 98 R40M cars availiable for service. They are operated on the Nassau shuttle, the Bay Pkwy portion of the M, the N and the Q........R42 cars also run on the J/Z in the "eastern division" (4550 to 4863), as well as the Bay Pkwy portion of the M, N & Q (4864 to 4949). There are 12 R42 eastern division cars out of service for CBTC signal testing These cars are based in CIYD.......you will also find R32 cars on the A, as well as R32/38 mixed consist trains on the A/C......R46 cars also run on the E regularly. Once the WillyB reopens, they will be on the E rarely.......The # 1,2,4,5,6, & 7 lines are running 10 cars The 3 runs 9 cars, and the 7 should go back to 11 cars after Labor Day. The A, B, D, E, F, N, Q, & R run 600 foot trains of 10-60' cars or 8 75' cars, with the D not having seen a 60' car and Q not seeing a 75' car in quite some time. The C, L, and Bay Pkwy M run 8-60' cars; the J/Z currently runs 6-60 foot cars; and the G runs 6-75" cars Monday early AM thru Friday PM, with 4-75' cars Friday PM to Monday early AM to facilitate Sat/Sun OPTO operation. The GC shuttle runs 2-3 car trains and 1-4 car train, the Rockaway shuttle runs 4-75' cars for OPTO except on weekend beach weather days when 8-75' are ran; and the Franklin Shuttle when reopened will run 2-75' cars per train.
Well this week maybe Thursday I will be going down to Phila. I will
be rideing the Broad Street Line to see whats new. Also I
will go ride the Market Street Frankford Line. I know I will be seeing the New M4'S.
Here are some Questions.
Is there any chance of seeing the Amound Joy m3 cars?
Are there any PCC'S running on any of there trolly Lines?
Also are you allowed to take Photos of there trains in the
subway or Elevated?
Thanks for your time
Pelham Bay Dave Sr
1. 1-5% chance of seeing the Almond Joy's except for in the yards.
2. 0% chance of seeing PCC's anywhere except the Elmwood yard at the end of the 36 trolley
3.I've been questioned but never stopped from taking pictures as long as it's not in the conductor's face(they DO get irate at times).
You can still see the Almond Joys out for the Money collection train. I see it pass through Margeret Orthodox eastbound every weeknite at 7:35 PM
Hey John, what happened to the Budd Man?
BTW, how did your video you took with the carmera on the floor of the Budd train looking into the next car during the ERA fantrip?
Jim K.
Chicago
It trned out great. Me and someone else are working on a video for the MFSE and that will be in it. Sorry I cant say who else until the video gets finished. Problem is Im working all the time so I work on it on my free time. It will take a while.
That train seems to pass through 15th street around 8:30-ish, although the time can vary by a good amount. They often use the crossover there to back onto the eastbound track to let a passenger train pass, so there's plenty of opportunity for photos as the train pulls into the station, out, then in again.
They have armed guards collecting money and/or tokens in the front, and trash guys in the back filling a car full of trash. It's one of the really interesting features of the line.
I've taken some pictures , especially the interior of the M-4 while
it was waiting to leave 69th st. I was the first one on the front car
so there was nobody there to complain. I also shot a photo out of the
front window railfan seat . Some people gave me some funny looks but who cares? Also took a picture of the entire train at Frankford
terminal-nobody said anything to me!
Honestly, you will just have to try and see what happens. The Broad St. line is still running the "orange" 1984 model B-IV's. They still
run well and the A/C is good and cold! Just got done riding both Subway lines today. On Sundays at Fern rock you stay on while the train loops around the yards. You get to see some old stuff parked there on your trip around. Stay on the train or hop the next one free to center city!
Have fun on your visit!
Chuck Greene
I also shot a photo out of the front window railfan seat . Some people gave me some funny looks but who cares?
You want funny looks? Try it with a camcorder!
--Mark
Hi Mark:
I'll bet you get some looks with all the photos and camcorder shots you take! We have to do these things because we love transit so much! Are you going to be at the Model Trolley show on Aug. 28th at King of Prussia? I'll be there and we swap stories. I might even
buy another tape from you if you have a good one!
Chuck Greene
Unfortunately, no, I won't be at the August 28th show, much as I'd like to. Usually Joel schedules the show in September, so I planned my vacation at the end of August. For some reason (I presume price or availability), Joel masde his show earlier, so I'll be on vacation (Cape May, NJ) while the show is in progress.
And ALL my tapes are good ones :)
--Mark
First off.....For the last five times I've been to Philly. I've been harassed for taking photos. The last time a SEPTA official made us get off the train at 13th st.(My last ride in an Almond joy :( Except for the ERA trip) To be safe go to 1234 Market st. on the main floor near the SEPTA store there is an information booth. Tell the person what you want to do, Where, and when. They will notify all concerned. If she Doesn't know who to call tell her to call Mr Whittaker from public relations.
Secondly......Except for the Trash/Revenue collection train, All of the Almond Joys are out of service :(
Mark
I saw the money train last night entering 56th St. It was nice to see the Almond Joys out and about. Most of the windows have been painted over and the rear door of the last car is missing. It looks in sorry shape.
In my spare time, I like to tinker with drawing track maps of what might have been on the NYC subway. Today, I came up with a slightly improved version of today's Rogers Avenue Junction(or the Franklin/Nostrand junction on the Eastern Pkwy. IRT).
I had a few ideas and sketches before I came up with this:
Keep the four track, one level at Franklin Avenue, put scissors switches on both sides at the east end of the station allowing trains from 7th Avenue and Lexington Avenue to mix.
Then the express tracks dive(the rush hour 5 is on the express and the 2 switches) and then turn onto Nostrand Avenue leaving two tracks on the mainine.
As for the mainline, after a reasonable distance, the Utica bound track splits(while the Manhattan bound tracks merge on the lower level), keeping the present formation until after Utica. There I would keep pretty much the same formation.
This way, you don't have that unnecessary single-track for the eastbound locals bottlenecking the whole line.
Of all the things about the subway that irk me, none does it like this junction.
Would've been nice if they did it my way:):):)
There is an abondoned stair case on the Times Square Shuttle platfrom near the turnstiles. The stairs go down and are completely dark. The whole thing has a fence around it up to the ceiling. Anybody know where is goes?
Eric
It's a storage area, it used to be an overpass to the other side. On the other side the stair has been removed. Apparently, it's easier to have that drawbridge that doesn't force people to go up and down through an overpass.
I meant underpass
The stairway was originally used as an underpass between the two the side platforms as at that time the Contract I Times Square Station was a local stop. The floor of the passageway is level with the floor of the BMT Broadway Subway and passes between the two express tracks.
The north stairway that you saw is closed at the bottom and the passageway was used for storage at least into the 1960's. The south stairway was boarded over but can be seen from below from the passageway. The underpass was probably closed to passengers sometime after shuttle operation began in 1918.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is another abandoned passage in Times Square station. Walk down from the shuttle area to the N/R train (ignoring the signs that tell you to take another route until 2003). There is a mid-level mezzanine halfway between the shuttle level and the N/R level. Turn around, and to the left of the stairs is a door with a hole in the window that you can look through, into a passageway that, for some reason, is lit. You can clearly see signs that indicate "To Coney Island". Who knows what line that led to, and why the passageway is closed? Looks like it has been closed for years, judging from the nasty stench.
[There is another abandoned passage in Times Square station. Walk down from the shuttle area to the N/R train (ignoring the signs that tell you to take another route until 2003). There is a mid-level
mezzanine halfway between the shuttle level and the N/R level. Turn around, and to the left of the stairs is a door with a hole in the window that you can look through, into a passageway that, for
some reason, is lit. You can clearly see signs that indicate "To Coney Island". Who knows what line that led to, and why the passageway is closed? Looks like it has been closed for years, judging from
the nasty stench.]
You're seeing the remnants of a separate fare-controlled entrance for the BMT, dating back before unification in 1940.
Are there detailed maps of the Times Square station available anywhere? Last summer I spend some time wandering around, and it's more complex than I had imagined. I'm sure there's some interesting history that I'm unaware of. For instance, why are there two ways to get from the N/R to the 1/2/3/9 (one, following the crowds, to the shuttle area and then off to the left; the other, now closed for construction, through a maze of narrow passageways immediately to the left of the ramps)? And what about all the different ways to get down to the 7 train and to the A/C/E passageway? I'm afraid the rehab will eliminate much of the complexity.
From the shuttle platform, walk towards the 1/2/3/9 platforms but turn left down a hallway just before them (I think signage there points towards the A/C/E). About halfway down, embedded in the wall on the left, is this...um...thing. What is it and why is it there?
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com [g]
I'll have to check these out.
There's already a "Canarsie" sign exposed in the Times Square Complex; now THAT'S pretty inexplicable.
Since the Canarsie line is/was a BMT line, it was a means of directing passengers wishing to get to Canarsie - by BMT, of course. There used to be pillar signs at Union Square which said, "To 14th St. subway", along with a nice, long arrow pointing in the proper direction. There is a very brief scene in The Warriors which features one of these signs.
Oh, yes, yes, if you could add a Times Square (subway) section on your web page, I'd be thrilled -- I'm afraid it's all going to be lost very soon. Is the Canarsie sign on your page? (I only just recently discovered it and I haven't yet had a chance to get through it all, although I certainly will one of these days.)
As for this "thing," I think it's some sort of artwork. It's a tiny sculpture, somewhat resembling a face, embedded in the wall. It's covered with a glass panel and even lit from inside, IIRC. It looks like it was put there in the early 70's and untouched since. But what's it doing there, in that passageway, which I can't imagine has ever seen terribly great passenger volumes?
I'll be in the system on Saturday (on a Transit Museum outing) and I'll see if I can get over to Times Square after the day's festivities are at an end.
Speaking of which, are there any other endangered stations in the system? I'm thinking of stations like Fulton Street with all its mazelike ramps, stairways, and passageways; the massive yet decrepit Chambers Street on the J/M/Z; Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street; etc. And are the rumors true that the Manhattan-bound L will soon be abandoning its private track at Atlantic Avenue? I've only been out there once and I found it really cool -- probably the only place in the system where the separation between the tracks for the two directions of a single line can be counted in blocks rather than feet (I hope someone can prove me wrong here).
I do know that part of the Atlantic Avenue complex is to be torn down. But I don't know the details or timetable.
Probably between 2000-2001. They want to make the Canarsie L line a straight run instead of the round-about way it has to go from Sutter to Atlantic Ave. station due to the old Fulton el structure as it goes toward Pitkin Ave.
Also, the re-aligning of the Canarsie route will aide in the NYCT's plans for CBTC operation that they will installed first on the L line, and later perhaps on other areas of the system.
Doug aka BMTman
Currently, the outermost southbound track has been removed. There is a blue plywood wall up along the southbound platform and the Canarsie bound trains are using the next innermost track, formerly the "JJ"/"KK" layup track. Plans call for the removal of the entire structure over Snediker Avenue, including the easternmost track and trackway. My concern is a) how will this affect the period mezzanine and fare-control area and b) will they retain the original platform furnishings on whatever platform remains.
Wayne
It is the Brooklyn bound Platform right now. Later it will be the Manhattan bound platform.........
3TM
Nice sign over the uptown 47th-50th St tower now that this tower is Automatic non rush hour. I believe from memory the sign reads:
"This Tower is Now Automatic, What You Punch Is What You Get".
Nice and too the point for the points (pardon the pun/get my drift). It's over the door, big large lettering black on white sign.
Also included down by eye level are those handy dandy lineup signs for the various routes.
Now if they could come up with a to the point sign for the Conductor like "Open Other Side Idiot, Or Your Fired".....
I was tempted, a few months ago while waiting for a Q train as numerous B's, D's, and F's came through, to take control and punch the Q button as a train pulled in. Would that work? If the operator hit a different (correct) button afterwords, which punch would take effect? I could just imagine the reaction as the train pulled into 57th Street and no one knew why.
All the T/O has to do is press cancel and then punch his route. That did happen to me. I came Into 149 Street-Grand Concause and the punch light was lit for 7 Ave with the Line up. I was a No.5 so ofcause I canceled it and hit Lex and I did get the currect route.
What about the button at Rockaway Boulevard on the A? You have to ring once for Lefferts, and ring twice for Rockaway. So if I saw a Lefferts train coming, I would just push the button, then the operator would push the button and off to the Rockaways we go!
I did that once five years ago. I didn't work. I punched it once when the train was comming, motorman punched it again and it still didn't go to Far Rockaway.
Well there is a Punch like that at Bronx Park East. It sez Throu EXP ring 3 times.
And twice on the pipe means you ain't gonna show... Rim shot!
If you remember Tony Orlando & Dawn, you know what that means.
Not likely. Any Motorman worth his handles would check the switch points and the home signal first. If it's set for Lefferts, then he'd call the Liberty Junction tower. I beleive Green over yellow is the diverging route to the Rockaways. This even though straight rail goes down the ramp to the Rock. The original lineup is to Lefferts, so that makes it's switch off to the right the main route, bottom Green.
Also, most Train Operators let Liberty Junction tower know their call letters upon leaving 88st-Boyd Ave in order to get a line up quicker.
Some tower operators who work Liberty Junction will tell the train operator to punch anyway (if they call from 88-Boyd). In fact alot of towers where you must punch (even though the machine is NOT on automatic), you are requested to punch even if you call ahead.
I guess they want to make sure you come to a complete stop in the station.The use of the punch insures that.
Then they'll line you up.
This has been going on for many nites/weekends. Track replacement of continious weilded rail to jointed track sections on the Coney Is. express track has reached Kings Highway. Track has been replaced from just south of Newkirk (just as the grade rises and Ave H) to where the overpass of Kings Hwy begins.
Work Trains were in Kings Hwy all weekend, great site to see waiting for the D. Too bad I forgot my camera (was working all weekend). Neighbors aren't happy with all the toot tooting of the MOW engines as they move back and forth but I LOVED IT!!
why arent the new rails welded?
On the Astoria line, there are only 2 express stops: Hoyt Avenue & Ditmars Avenue (not counting QbP). I believe that of the other 4, 30th Ave., 36th Ave., 39th Ave., and Broadway, the MTA should make Broadway an express stop due to the large volume of people who use that station vs. the other 3. Practically nobody gets on at 36th & 39th Avenues, and 30th Avenue would be too close to the others.
Is it feasable to make Broadway into an express stop, especially now that the W train is coming?
Your taking about money.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
You would have to widen the structure to have the outside tracks go outward. You would have to condemn many buildings and businesses. The money could better be used elsewhere. How much time savings would be generated for passengers getting off at Broadway, Astoria Blvd & Ditmars Blvd. with express operation? Local stop passengers would be moaning about having to let the express go by. P.S. Is Broadway your station?
YES, Broadway is my station, but that is not why I am advocating making it an express stop. Actually, I think it would be rather easy to reconfigure the station, without widening the structure. It would be necessary to move the platforms and tracks around, though, and I'm sure it would be costly.
Does anyone have or has access to information regarding the original rollsign listings for the Brooklyn PCCs when newly delivered?
Carl M.
A lot of people get off at 30th Avenue too. Should the MTA make that an express station too, Adam?
Be real,
N Broadway Local
Astoria Blvd Station (Express Station)
No, 30th Avenue should NOT be made into an express stop b/c it is too close to Hoyt Avenue. Actually, the only 2 express stops on the Astoria line should be Broadway and Ditmars in my opinion.
OK----There's only 6 stations on the Astoria line excluding Queensboro Plaza. There should be no express service at all on this line. It makes no sense!!!!! The platforms at each station on this line collect way too many people in the morning.
Everytime an express train skips a local stop on this line, the local stops get too crowded and when a local train finally comes, there's not enough room to allow everyone waiting to get on the damn train by the time it hits Broadway from Ditmars Blvd.
I believe in having no express trains and way more local trains to alleviate the crowds.
GO CASEY JONES!!!!! I NOMINATE YOU FOR MTA PREZ!!!!
Had this line been extended past LGA, as was envisioned in the Second System plans, the need for express service would have been justified. As it stands now, any time savings would be insignificant.
There's express service on the Astoria Line?
Not that I know of. At one time, the B use to make express over me during the peak period (thank god they don't do it anymore - THEY DELAY ME). Fortunately, that side of the bridge is fix now.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
Let me get this straight. The "N" is known as the Sea Beach only in Brooklyn? It is called the Astoria Line in Queens, and the Broadway Express in Manhattan? That is what I have gleaned from all the reports I've read on this net. Is that right? If not what is the "N" Train called in the other boroughs besides Brooklyn. They certainly don't call it the Sea Beach in Queens, do they?
[Let me get this straight. The "N" is known as the Sea Beach only in Brooklyn? It is called the Astoria Line in Queens, and the Broadway Express in Manhattan?]
Correct, except that it's now the Broadway Local in Manhattan.
Pete: Broadway Local? Yuk! I'm not riding the Sea Beach until it gets into Brooklyn. Broadway Local? Who thought that crop us?
I meant: Who thought that crap up? Better concentrate on what I type.
The N is currently running local along Broadway in Manhattan because of the Manhattan Bridge situation. If and when the south side tracks reopen, it may or may not return to the express tracks.
To me, the N will always be the Broadway Express because that's the way I remember it from the good old days. In fact, the original side route signs on the R-32s said just that. The R-27s originally had N-Broadway/Sea Beach Express. If you get an N train of R-32s today, you'll see N-Astoria/B'wy/Sea Beach on the side route signs, with no reference to local or express operation.
On maps, the N is listed simply as Broadway Local.
On aboard! This is a northbound N to Astoria. Please stand clear the closing doors.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
Pete: Broadway Local? Yuk! I'm not riding the Sea Beach until it gets into Brooklyn. Broadway Local? Who thought that crap up?
They changed it when they had to shut down the southwest side of the Manhattan Bridge. Sometime in the next millenium, the N/Broadway Exp. is supposed to return.
Until Canal St, you coud have a Broadway express right now(via switches at the station).
I hope I'm not dead by the time that happens. Sea Beach and Express are supposed to by synonomous. A local? Triple Yuk!!!
I know this sounds like high treason, but the BMT standards did have a Sea Beach Local sign on their route roller curtains. They did not, however, have a 4th Ave. Express sign.
I agree with your observation, though, just as the R-10s will forever be synonimous with the A train.
The R-10s have been off the A for a while, and there are now people who don't remember them on that line, so they wont be forever synonymous. As for the N, hopefully it will be express in the future and will regain it's synonymity. I think that the Manhattan Bridge needs to suffer a tragedy a la Tacoma-Narrows for it to be replaced, it seems to be the only way. Maybe we can have some terrorist blow it up.
The R-10s spent the bulk of their careers on the A line (29 years to be exact), and for most of that time, served that line exclusively. It's easy for me to say they will forever be synonimous with the A because I remember them when they ruled the roost over there and rode on many, many A trains of those cars. The WF R-36s have the same distinction, having served the 7 exclusively since 1964. OK, OK, some WF units have made their way to the mainlines over the years, including now.
I will always be a local. Please see Q.
Not if both sides of the bridge are open. You think it's fun running three trains through the tunnel?
That's OK by me. I really can't blame you, since the N has been stuck on the local tracks in Manhattan for the past decade. I vivdly remember when the N used the bridge and ran express up Broadway, and the R-32s proudly displayed "N-Broadway Express" signs. It made for a nice, quick dash from Union Square to 34th St.
When did the N train use the Queensboro Bridge as part of it's route? How did it get underground when it got to Manhattan? Are there remnants of track on the bridge still?
CJ
The N train NEVER used the Queensborough Bridge as part of it's route, nor did any BMT line. Until 1942, Second Avenue Elevated trains used the bridge. Since the line was elevated, there were no tunnels to get to.
Yes everyone, I'm a Broadway Local. Just like my neighbor the #1.
You would basically have to put the tracks where the local platforms are and the platforms where the track are. Step 2 wouldn't be very hard, outside of punching new stairs through, but Step 1 would require a lot of shoring up of the ironwork beneath the current platforms, since trains tend to weigh a wee bit more than most people.
Let's see. Got the 4 at Bowling Green. Wrong-railed from Bowling Green to Brooklyn Bridge, where the train was turned for brooklyn. Across the platform transfer to a 6 or 4 which ran around the loop, and local uptown. the express track at 14st was roped off, and STILL, there were people looking for a train. Platform conductrors at Brooklyn Bridge, making announcements, service notices, etc., did not stop several people from standing in line, one after the other, asking a uniformed motorman which train went to Brooklyn.
At 14st, I went for the N/R. This time, all trains were on the express, and the local roped off. Spotted no signs on the platform, but there was the one couple holding a service notice, reading it on the platform, and taking it with them onto the train.
From Times Square, I took the 1/9 home. Again despite many signs, and the conductor making announcements of where to transfer to get to the bypassed stations (and announcing the bypassed stations!) people looked like sheep.
I only have one question; at Wall St, the uptown platform was blocked off, but the token booth open. The booth was closed on the Brooklyn-bound side, where all trains were running. Why didn't they move the agent to the open side, and block off the entrance to the uptown platform?
-Hank
On Saturday, the two sections of the 4 connected at the uptown platform at Brooklyn Bridge. Downtown 4 and 6 ran around the loop and let everyone off on the uptown local track. 4 to/from Brooklyn turned at the uptown express track. Downtown platform at BB was closed off to passengers.
On my way back downtown Saturday night, the conductor on the downtown 6 announced at Canal St that "this train will not open its doors at Brooklyn Bridge"-- he went on to explain that it would go through the station, around the City Hall loop, and stop at the uptown side, where connections could be made for the Brooklyn-bound 4. But many passengers, hearing only that it wouldn't stop at Brooklyn Bridge, got off at Canal.
At Brooklyn Bridge, numerous confused passengers kept trying to get on the Brooklyn-bound 4 on the express track, thinking it was heading uptown. This despite nearly continuous announcements on both the train and on the platform.
Hmmm. You said the G. O. operation allowed the passengers to ride around CityHall loop? If Rudy finds out about that, he won't be too happy! lol
Maybe Rudy was out of town.
That sounds like a bizarre G. O. What was going on?
Well, there were construction workers on the downtown platform at Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday, with construction-looking-like debris and/or equipment. I didn't get a good look, I was moving to the car ahead of mine, where the lights weren't working, to get a better view of City Hall station. :-)
This is the second time I've been around the City Hall loop-- the first time was during a similar G.O. several months ago.
When will this GO repeat?
Hello friends: Could someone please give me or tell me where could I get the radio frequencies of the NYC Transit. Thanks!
Rook102, you can the NYCT frequencies from the book called Police Call and Beyond. You can pick this up at any Radio Shack store. Radio Shack updates this book every year. i get this book every year. The country is divided into 9 sections by the above book. You need Book 1 which is the Northeast section of the United States.
Enjoy.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The "Monitor America" directory which is sold by Scanner Master of Albany, Ny is a mucn more comprehensive guide for scanner enthusiasts. It is much more complete in its coverage of non-public safety radio and includes extensive listings of transit, air traffic control, news media, sports venues and other radio users. They also have a dedicated NY/NY Metro Edition which includes extensive NYC Police/Fire/EMS information and explanations.
This info is also available online:
http://www.panix.com/clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
ALL FREQUENCIES are IN mHz, many may be difficult to receive.
470.3875 Community Repeater -- Emergencies, Maintenance, Power
161.0250 Coney Island Yard
160.8750 Coney Island Yard BMT IND
160.3950 Coney Island Yard Tower A
160.8950 Coney Island Yard Tower B
161.1900 Div A IRT Subway Operations
158.8800 Div A IRT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
161.5050 Div B1 BMT Subway Operations
158.7750 Div B1 train-to-dispatcher
158.7750 Div B1 BMT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
158.8050 Div B1 BMT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
161.5650 Div B2 IND Subway Operations
161.1900 Division A dispatcher-to-train (former IRT division)
158.8800 Division A train-to-dispatcher
161.5050 Division B1 dispatcher-to-train (former BMT division)
161.5650 Division B2 dispatcher-to-train (former IND division)
158.8050 Division B2 train-to-dispatcher
470.4875 Maintanence of Way
160.8450 S. Brooklyn Railroad[?]
161.5650 S. Brooklyn Railroad[?]
156.1050 Signals/Maintanence of Way
160.8450 Yard IND BMT IRT
160.8450 yard IND BMT IRT
Spotted what was likly a bi-level car shell on a wharf at Port Elizabeth this morning on my way to work. It was sheathed in plastic, but the shape was pretty distinct.
-Hank
There appears to be a homeless Cat (or kitten) at the Fulton Street downtown J/M/Z. It startled me because it jumped from Track level to the platform. Apparently, the station cleaning crew set out food and water for it. It seems very wary of people but is a very nice looking cat.
Oh, and they're running a 4 car trains of R40m on the S.
That explains where the R40M's have disappeared to, since they aren't running anywhere on the J shuttle (only R42's).
During a rare driving excursion on the FDR drive yesterday, I saw what appeared to be a bridge for rail traffic ( with overhead lines
for power) which somewhat paralleled the Triboro bridge. This span was, I think, of concrete and the girders were red. It looked like it connected the Bronx and maybe Queens. Sorry for needing to ask, but can anyone tell me what I saw?
It might be the Hell's Gate railway bridge.
It was the Hell Gate Bridge, which carries Amtrak service on the NE Corridor between NYC and Boston.
It also carries the occasional freight train.
That was the Bridge Over Troubled Waters.
-Hank :)
...And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls...
Oops, wrong song. Right artists.
That is none other than Hell Gate Bridge. And if I may say, it's one helluva bridge - much better-designed than the Manhattan Bridge and incredibly strong.
I read somewhere in this thread (but can't find it again) about the relationship between the State of CT & M-N. The impression was left that it's a MTA/NY State RxR.
Well I just happen to be reading an article in one of the "trades" that says "Connecticut owns the RxR from the state line to NH ... and 344 EMUs (M2/Cosmopolitans) ... and locomotives (for New Canaan, Danbury & Waterbury lines) ..."
Question: Does NJ own the equip. on the Port Jervis & Spring Valley lines there ?
That would mean NY State owns the equip. on Hudson & Harlem lines ?
Mr t__:^)
No, and yes. MNCR provides equipment to NJT to provide ther service to NY. Until recently, NJT used this equipment as part of its pool, but now may only use it on the lines serving NY. Often, NJT equipment will make the trip as well, and NJT gets payyments from the MTA to make the service. The same system works in reverse for ConnDOT.
MNCR owns the Hudson, Harlem, and lower New Haven (south of the CT line) outright. (Ok, the state owns them) ConnDOT owns the CT portion of the line from the CT border to New Haven, and the branches.
-Hank
CT, being the pro mass transit state it is :( , hasn't upgraded that catenary like NY did, and also is limp on the funiding issue - A conductor I talked with yesterday (heading up to pick my bike up from the dealer) told me that the New haven line hasd a major equipment crunch - partly because CT won't cough up the cash for new stuff - as a result, I was in a train of M-4s that were 6 hot out of 9. Well, they ARE M-4s, which, IMHO are the worst of the three NH types...
One of the funny things as far as the MN equipment on the PJ/Pascack lines is that MN made a great show of sending some Bombardier coaches over from the Hudson line, and instead of leaving the Hudson line names on the sides, they redid them with PJ/Pascack oriented names on the side..(i.e. there are now MN cars named Middletown, Port Jervis, spring Valley, etc.etc...)so now it is quite possible to ride on a MN car named Middletown...then ride on a PATH car named Middletown...(just wondering...how did they get them from the east side of the river to the west..car float??...or did they run them down the Amtrak west side connector, thru the Pennsy tubes then double back over the Waterfront Connector??)
About a year ago I saw some MN coaches in the Penn Station tunnel yard. Perhaps they had come down the west side connection and were headed for Hoboken?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That sounds just about right mouse......
From what I observed all Port Jervis & Spring Valley lines out of Hoboken are powered by locos painted in MN colors, but about while 95% of the cars use on these lines are MN cars. Every now and then you get a NJT car in the mix. So in short on the Port Jervis & Spring Valley lines are all MN equpiment (with a few NJT equipment, i.e. cars out for maintenace, etc.) and are maintained by NJT (I'm 90% sure but I might be wrong).
Thurston: That was me. CDOT does own approx half of the M2-4-6 series and about 10 Fl-9's. They also own about 20 or so of the Shoreliner coaches.These are all intermixed with the MTA owned cars of the same type. The only cars which stay exclusively on the Harlem and Hudson Lines are the ACMU's,M-1 and M-3's.
The MTA owns about 30 coaches and six locomotives that are assigned to the Port Jervis Line service and are suppossed to be used there in-so-far-as is possible.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The only cars which stay exclusively on the Harlem and Hudson Lines are the ACMU's,M-1 and M-3's.]
M-1 ? I thought only the LIRR had M-1 & MN H&H lines had M-3 because there was a slight difference ?
P.S. Doesn't the MN-H&H have some FL-9s. There was a post about one or more of them being parked in Penn Sta, but I couldn't see them last time I went exploring on the West tracks (1 thru 10) of Penn.
[They also own about 20 or so of the Shoreliner coaches.]
These are used with GP-40s on the NH to New London service ?
P.S. So Larry that was you, I knew it was a reliable source.
Mr t__:^)
CDOT owns somethng like a dozen FL9s and MNCR until recently had a few more than that. Some of the MNCR FL9s have been put up for sale or scrap in the last month or so - now that the Genesis units have been somewhat debugged. Hey - it only took about 4 years to debug them.
And speaking of debugging - I wonder how long it will take to debug the DE30s?
As for the M1(s) on MNCR - they roam freely over the Hudson and Harlem lines. As far as I know, there are no restrictions as to where they go so long as it's under running third rail.
FWIW - MNCR is still running their 1100 series MUs in addition to their M1s and M3s. These are electric MUs built around 1963 for New York Central and are very similar to the Worlds Fair cars that were built for the LIRR at the same time.
As you know, the LIRR demotored their MUs around 1970 and converted them to diesel haul coaches. But these MNCR MUs remain powered and run on some of the short Rush hour trips.
Thanks Dave for the additional detail ! Before long I'll need a file cabinet just for all the stuff I print off this site.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: Thank you. I should have said that MN operates M-1a and M-3a EMU's. The MTA purchased the original M-1's (770 cars) from 1968 through 1972 for use on the LIRR. They purchased an additional 178 cars from 1971 to 1973 for use on the Penn Central Harlem & Hudson Lines.
There were some diffences particularly the placement of the third rail shoes and the interior seat color,also the LIRR M-1's had rollsigns, the PC M-1a's did not.
The MTA purchased an additional 174 cars in 1985 to 86 and called these the M-3's. Likewise there was an additional 142 cars for use on what was by then MN,called the M-3a's. MN only uses the "a" when refencing these cars with the LIRR otherwise they are justy called M-1 or M-3.
As regards the Shoreliner order the original puchase for CDOT was for 20 coaches that were delivered in 1985. An additional order was placed in 1991 for 10 coaches for MN service and 10 more for the Shoreline East service. The cars for Shoreline East service have a slightly different paint scheme and are numbered in the 1600 series.
As a rule the two CDOT fleets are not intermixed except that on the Waterbury Branch it is not uncommon to see a consist (1 loco,2 coaches) of 'Shoreline East' equiptment if the regular shuttle is in the shop. I also believe that there were a few occasions when MN/CDot FL-9's were used on the Shoreline East.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Thanks for the detail. I also enjoy seeing the diesels in NH paint jobs, brings me back to the days of my youth when the NH use to run from NH thru Middletown and on to Willimantic via the "Air Line" route (a couple of freight cars only).
Mr t__:^)
MN has a total of 33 FL-9's and 7 Fl-9 AC's. LIRR had three FL-9 AC's.
The'AC's are the ones rebuilt by ABB Traction and have much greater horsepower (3100 vs 1800) and greater fuel capacity (1400 vs1200gals).
Of the 33 FL-9's 10 are painted in NHRR colors and owned by CDOT but are generally assigned only to MN trains,not Shoreline East. Of the 23 MN owned FL-9's six have already been sidelined at Croton North, being displaced by the new Genesis P-32's. They are in the old east yard together with nine of the ten MN SPV's and two ex Lackawanna MU's.
The 7 rebuilt FL-9 AC's should be around for sometime to come.
MN generally uses the locomotives on the runs into non-electrified territory but lately has been using some to cover runs entirely within the electrified zone. This is due to the purchase of the delivery of an 50 additional Shoreliner IV coaches. In the electrified zone they are used on runs making limited stops.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Which are the larger commuter rail networks in the US?
Does a commuter railroad have to be one like the traditional LIRR or Metra that serves the suburbs? I consider the Washington Metro to be a type of commuter railroad even though it's a city subway.
That's a tough question, since there's not a simple test of what's a commuter rail system.
Some people talk about a servie that operates mainly or only in the peak commuting hours, but many of the largest commuter rail systems operate off-peak and weekend service on most or all of their lines, though less frequently than the off-peak service of rapid transit or light rail. Others count systems that have a lot of suburban trackage and are dominated by suburb-center city work-related commutes, but this includes systems that many don't consider commuter rail, such as BART and Washington Metrorail (both rapid transit) and Baltimore's Light Rail line.
I would think that two of the major defining factors of commuter rail is that it carries passengers on existing railroad tracks that are still used for freight and/or Amtrak service and that it uses the same motive power as the freight/Amtrak service (that is, it doesn't use electric trains powered from overhead wires while the freight trains on the same trackage use diesel engines.
This rule seems to work well in most cases, because it excludes operations that laid and operate their own trackage on their own ROW or in/under/over streets (rapid transit and most light rail), operations that use abandoned freight lines (one of Dallas' DART light rail's new extensions and the D-Riverside light rail in Boston), and operations that share the tracks with freights but aren't powered the same way (Baltimore light rail). But then it also appears to exclude the Metra Electric line (which operates along Illinois Central ROW but is electrified while the IC freights and Amtrak passenger trains on the same line are diesel) and the South Shore line (again, electrified passenger trains but diesel freights).
I think all the freight in the NY area is diesel, though there isn't a lot of it, while most of the commuter rail service is electric.
I think the characteristics of commuter rail is a long ride, mile-wise, high speeds, high prices, few stops in urban neighborhoods, and the expectation of a seat for all. In contrast urban rail features many stops in urban neighborhoods, slow speeds (even for "rapid"), standees and low fares. The DC metro starts in the suburbs but stops closer in, so it is a subway.
Another characteristic is that commuter rail takes over former inter-city routes, and inter-city stations, dating from a time when what are now suburbs were small towns on the rail line.
[I think all the freight in the NY area is diesel, though there isn't a lot of it, while most of the commuter rail service is electric.]
All NYC-area freight service is diesel today. I recall reading that the Pennsylvania RR experimented with electric-powered freight trains operating through Penn Station many years ago. There also may have been some electric-powered freights operating along the Bay Ridge line in Brooklyn, until the line was de-electrified about 35 years ago.
By the way, saying that there isn't a lot of freight in the NYC area isn't correct. There is a huge amount of freight activity in New Jersey, and there's quite a bit in Rockland and Orange counties.
So, is the port washington line R/T then?
It's short (only a few miles - I'm sure there are longersubway lines than it) Has slow speeds, short distances between stations. Stops in urban areas (Main Street, Murry Hill, Broadway, Woodside)
It's not really commuter rail, and it's not really rapid transit.
The equipment sure looks like a glorified subway.
What is it then?
actually isnt what differentiates "commuter rail' from 'rapid transit' is that commuter rail is under the jurisdiction of the FRA (Federal Railway Administration) and has to follow their regs as opposed to rapid tranist which is not...(excepting, of course PATH which is FRA regulated cause it runs over the Amtrak ROW...)
The distinction is as follows IMHO, commuter rail is standard guage, connected to, and possibly previously part of the national rail system. operates by timetable and train order/block signal systems. The signal system usually DOES NOT include trip arms. Power may be diesel or electric, but clearances are AAR standard. 'Mass Transit' on the other hand is generally self contained and the trackage does not maintain AAR specs. All that said there are the odd exceptions which "prove the rule" CTA 's Red/Purple lines north of Wilson Ave are on former mainline trackage and included freight service in interchange with the former owner--Milwaukee Road. CTA was not to my knowledge subject to FRA.
Illinois Central Electric service--now Metra- makes many stops within Chicago, although far fewer than when the system went electric in 1926. The tickets are electronically collected, the platforms are high level, and there is limited owl service. In prior years the South Chicago branch which is at grade level in street medians most of its length hosted a way freight. So maybe the distinctions are really blurred all over. That's why we all are interested in some aspect or another isn't it?
The difference between inter & intra city rail lines, i.e. Rapid Transit vs. Commuter has been bluring in recent years as more and more small/medium size towns are putting back rail service, and larger cities are addiing new service e.g.
- VRE (92): Washington D.C. to Fredericksburg
- ACE (98): San Fran to Silicon Valley
- Tri-Rail (89): Almost to Miami
- Shoreline: NH to New London
- Coasters: San Diego
- MAX: Seattle, a light rail
It would seem that a large part of this group is interested in subways, light rail and all of the above, with a fair amount that are NOT interested in Amtrak, i.e. long haul passenger.
Mr t__:^)
MAX is Portland mostly prow outside of downtown
ACE runs STOCKTON to San Jose(but most alight @ Santa Clara station which connects to San Jose LRV line.
With exception of Max all you have named are diesel powered trains "hosted" on mainline RR's thus being 'commuter' rail. Though here too what is the difference between using ATK or Septa say from 30th st to Trenton? dollars and minutes Also note, in PRR days they sold monthly commute tickets for Philly NY riders both 44 ride punch and flash/"all you can eat" So what is a commuting trip?
David, Thanks for the corrections ! You're right MAX is a new light rail line running on O/H wire vs. diesel.
My only point was that a number of new companies have been formed in recent years (1990s) providing service where none had existed for years ... can we say "Rail-substitution" ... only if none of our BusTalk friends aren't listing.
BTW, the "May/June" issue of Mass Transit had a 20 page article about many of these new RxRs ... I counted a couple of dozen systems, which also incl. SEPTA, MBTA, LIRR, M-N and other big guys. The first two pages were on VRE & ACE so I should have got them right, sorry about that.
Mr t__:^)
There is a nice piece on ACE in the recent Rail News.
We certainly are in a pleasant renaissance of rail service for local travel. Who would have imagined thirty years ago? And indeed the distinctions between 'classes' of service have been blurred. For instance, what is PATCO
? I would call it a mass transit(subway)line. However the outer section is an old mainline route rebuilt with third rail. So what is it? Some years back the people @ The New Electric Railway Journal tried to ordain a new set of terms. Metro Rail for mainline RR commute services, Heavy Rail for what I call mass transit(your average subway/el/l), Light Rail (the expensive name for expensive reintroduction of trolley cars.
But how many of those services are using Amtrak equipment and crews? (like the MBTA rail service..) Not to mention the 'Amtrak' services which are basically funded and the schedules mandated by various state govts? (such as Amtraks Empire Service or the Vermonter, or the new service that the state of Oklahoma is sponsering btwn OK City and Dallas???)
Is the present day Connecticut Transit the same one that was known as the Connecticut Company or was there an intermediate company which ran the buses in the 1960's.Thanks in advance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ive been studying ConnCo lately, but unfortunately Ive been studying the wrong diection for your question but I know ConnCo had buses up until the late 50's (Ive got old bus transfers) Branford has an older model ConnCo busand 2 newer models I believe, but I cant say for sure
Steve; Thanks. I made my first trip to Branford in 1965 when I was 15 by taking the NHRR "Murray Hill" from GCT to New Haven and then getting two buses to East Haven. I am trying to find out what company or agency was running the buses at that time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Conn Co. was sold by the NHRR to E. Clayton Gengress (I think that is how you spell his name). He was some big mucky muck in the Security Insurance Co. of CT. He operated Conn Co. until some time in the mid 70's. When the state took over he would not sell the name Connecticut Co. A new company was formed operating charter coaches and school buses under the Conn Co name. I remember seeing the charter coaches on I-95 when I was driving coaches for Connecticut Limousine Service. They were using Eagles and the colors were blue & white. I think the charter coach division has stopped operating, but the company is still operating the school buses. They were based somewhere in the northern part of the state near Hartford.
Goerge: Thanks you very much. That's what I was looking for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode the #7 City Subway today and the PCC's are sporting both trolley poles and pantographs though they are only using the poles. I understand the system will be shut down completely for two weeks in August to replace the wire.
At Orange Avenue Station outbound cars stop at a temporary platform east of Orange Av. The former outbound track at this location as well as the station platform will be removed. Outbound cars now use the alignment of the former inbound track at this location while inbound cars use a new alignment to the south of the former inbound track.
At Franklin Av about half the station has been removed and work is underway to re-extend the line over the former ROW that used to be used for turnbacks until the PCC's arrived.
This was about 12 noon and there were six cars in service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS There is a small English/Spanish Brochure entitled "Newark City Subway,On Track for Tomorrow" available on the cars.
The subway will be shutting down between August 21 and September 6.
When it reopens, I think tickets will be required to ride the subway, and fares will no longer be collected on board.
This is according to the brochure, but it only says "Beginning in late 1999, etc." and doesn't specifically say after Sep 6.
How will the transition to high platforms occur? will the PCCs have bridges installed like on commuter rail? When will the combined Branch Brook Park station open?
The New Jersey Transit LRVs (like some early 20th-century Boston cars, they look like 'two-rooms-and-a-bath') aren't high platform, are they? The center section, as I recall, is definitely low-floor for better ADA compliance. I haven't looked at one in a few months, but don't remember high platform construction on the cars or the stations.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
- Did you get to ride in the back seat with the window open as several of us SubTalkers did recently ?
- Did you buy a two-trip ticket & put it in your pocket after the first use ?
- Were you impressed with the condition the PCCs are in ? The crank for the side window still works and everything !
Thanks again to Sid of NJ for suggesting our "Field Trip", I'm glad I went TWICE.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: This time I did not ride the rear seat. I was to busy looking out the front at the line. I do remember that rear seat especially in the days before the line was rebuilt. It was better than any roller coaster.
The cars of course are impecably maintained even to the fabric on the seats. That's what make riding this line such a great trip.
Actually I bought five separate tickets because I wanted to ride as many cars as possible and I jumped on and off a few times (at the stations,of course) for pictures.I'm going to make it a trip to return soon because nothing beats those PCC's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How much longer do you think we will still see those PCC cars in service? I'm breaking a sweat right now at the thought of these perfectly functioning cars getting scrapped (and a few sent to San Francisco). I keep getting conflicting reports of when the cars will retire. Heck, I even heard a (wonderful) rumor that several PCC cars will remain in the fleet!
Cheers,
MIKE
I don't think the PCCs can be replaced until the new shop in Bloomfield is completed. I just saw it today; they're still putting up the steel frame. I would guess there is another six to nine months to go.
What alignment will the line take to Bloomfield? What new stations? Will the line be upgraded to high platforms or will the LRVs have low platform boarding.
The extension curves west from the existing right-of-way and crosses Franklin Avenue at grade. Then it will use a ramp up to the West Orange branch (ex-Erie Railroad) and follows that line heading southwest. (Both the grade crossing and ramp are under construction now.) The new shops are on an large plot about a half mile from the old terminal. There will be a new passenger station at Grove Street, just off Bloomfield Avenue, right next to the shops. There may also be an intermediate station at Belmont Avenue, although the town of Belleville had been opposing that idea.
The new LRVs will be have a partial low-floor design, so the existing platforms can remain. They and the cars for the Hudson-Bergen LRT are being built as one order.
There was a railway magazine article about a year or so ago about the Newark subway line and the PCCs. One of the comments made was the axles were starting to go on those cars, plus there has been some body rot similar to what is happening to the Redbirds. According to a quoted source in the article, "they've been patched and pasted with Bondo."
There was a most excelent article in the April '99 ed of Railpace. Shows many of the cars, incl. work cars and data on their history. It prepaired me very well for my two trips down the line.
Mr t__:^)
I just picked up (from eBay[plug]) a 1961 Official Railway Guide, and there are many delights inside, such as: The SIRT STILL showing freight service on the North shore and South Beach Branches....The South Brooklyn still in existance, with Transit Authority honchos as the 'corporate board'..and of course the LIRR using Dashing Dan as its symbol, not to mention showing all timetables...Now, heres my question: The NY Central pages dont show the current (1961) tables for the Hudson or Harlem lines, explainng that they "provide frequent commuter service on these lines" available on a seperate folder...Just how does the schedule today compare with the schedules in 'the good old days'?? (besides there now being thru Poughkeepsie-GCT service..) and the ridership??...just curious as always...
I have in my possession suburban timetables for both the Hudson and Harlem lines of the NYC - circa 1965. The suburban service today offers more trains - especially north of the "electrified" zones of the day, North White Plains and Croton-Harmon. There was however, if I'm remembering correctly, hourly owl service overnight.
I'll have to look for them in my NYC timetable box.
Jim K.
I have in my possession suburban timetables for both the Hudson and Harlem lines of the NYC - circa 1965. The suburban service today offers more trains - especially north of the "electrified" zones of the day, North White Plains and Croton-Harmon. There was however, if I'm remembering correctly, hourly owl service overnight.
I'll have to look for them in my NYC timetable box.
Jim K.
Chicago
Lou: As regards the Hudson Line serice almost all there was only one through train to NY in the rush hour. All others going north of Peekskill required a change at Croton. However this was supplemented by long haul trains to Albany and Buffalo which made stops in the commuter zone. There was a limited amout of through service to Peekskill. This was done by having a pair of RDC's tag on to an EMU train when in the electric sub-division.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is from a Hudson Division Timetable dated 10/25/64
Here in Sydney, Australia, we have a couple of 'Subway' cafes. The walls are lined with parts of subway maps.
The one closest to me has maps of parts of the BMT, after the Willy Bridge opened (1909 ?), and pre Nassau St; the IRT to 242nd St, plus plans of City Hall and Brooklyn Bridge Station; and also come IND lines.
No doubt these exist in NY and the man here said the murals came from 'Head Office'!?
Has anyone a bit of background on these please?
If it's the same Subway sandwich shop chain that's all around the United States, the wall design would be the standard subway map reproduction from about 1947, with the photos of the now-closed City Hall station.
I do believe that's the Subway chain he's talking about. I was in Rockhampton, Queensland,Australia 2 years ago and they had a Subway restaraunt there as well.
A recent message on this topic listed an auction to be held on 31st July. Has anybody some news on what happened at the sale, please?
The History Channel had a show on tonight about New York City bridges built before 1940 which briefly touched on the problem of the Manhattan Bridge's subway tracks, going through the explanation about the "twisting" of the bridge when trains pass across.
The last 15 minutes spent more time dealing with the overall rehab on the Williamsburgh, as well as talking about what would happen if a suspension bridge failed. However, for those hoping for a quick return to full time serivce on the Broadway express, the closing lines
about what's ahead for the three bridges wasn't hopeful.
"The Williamsburgh will have a new subway track..
"The Brooklyn a new deck...
"The Manhattan, new paint."
Since they talked to city bridge officals during the show, and they said the Willie B would be fixed in the near future, it didn't sound like anyone involved with the repairs was ready to promise the Manhattan would be anywhere near ready anytime soon, though I'm sure the new coat of paint will make it look nice and shiny for a while.
The only thing was I hoped they would have talked a little about the Hells Gate. I know it's only a rail bridge but I would like to know a little more of it history.
Check out www.nycroads.com, then under Crossings of Metro NYC, there is a fairly extensive piece about the Hells Gate Bridge.
What about the Queensboro Bridge? They mentioned that its cantilevered construction was chosen specifically to accomodate trains. Now there are none running on it. It also went to some lengths to disparage the bridge. Also, I have been on some railfan tours on which the consensus seemed to be that the 59th Street Bridge is "a nightmare."
In my opinion, it is one of the more interesting, I dare say beautiful bridges, in New York. After all, all of the suspension bridges are a bit redundant. To each his own, I guess.
According to Under the Sidewalks of NY, the BMT wanted to run subway trains over the Queensborough, but the city was afraid it couldn't take the weight, and made them build the 60th St tunnel instead. No such luck for Brooklyn. The irony is, the Queensborough is probably much better able to carry trains than the Willie B and Manhattan -- especially if the trains were in the middle.
The Second Ave. el trains were in the upper middle when they ran over the Queensborough. Of course, now, if they ever wanted in the distant future to route a Second Ave. subway train back over the bridge, the only space available would be the outer roadways, and we know what running trains on the outside section of a bridge can do.
[ Re: possibly putting trains back on the Queensborough Bridge ]
I'm not sure the problem with the Manhattan Bridge is that the trains run on the outside of the bridge so much as that the load has been historically unbalanced--that is, the north side tracks have always been more heavily used than the south.
The current situation must be even worse, with heavy service on the north side and NO service on the south side.
The Ben Franklin Bridge (PA-NJ) has carried trains for sixty years or more on tracks outboard of the roadways. The difference is that eastbound trains use one side and westbounds the other. Presumably any trains on the Queensborough would do the same.
Well, at last I found out why the LIRR keeps the DE30ACs idling when they are not running. A funny thing, if the loco shuts down, you can't flush the toilets on the bi-levels. Found that out today as my train coasted to a stop along the central branch when our loco balked and quit. Suggestion, it the loco quits on your train, be the first one into the lavatory - in case it's gonna be a long time until they get the loco restarted.
Haven't been in the lavatory of the new bi-levels yet, but if past experience is an indicator, you take your senses and possibly your life in your hands using any LIRR rolling stock lavatory!
The washrooms on the BiLevels are actually leaps and bounds above those on the other cars. Firstly, they're _huge_ -- ADA complaiancy, you know, but you could have 4 people stand in there comfortably. They have a sink with running water, a nice vanity (mirror, etc), a hand dryer, soap, etc.
Currently, they're even pretty clean.
My guess is that in 2 years from now, 75% of the sinks will be broken (or they'll never fill up the water tanks), the toilets will go a month or so between emptying the tank, and the rooms will be cleaned about once every two weeks.
Wait, doesn't running the locos all the time put lots of strain on the engine and shortens the life of the machine?
[ Wait, doesn't running the locos all the time put lots of strain on the
engine and shortens the life of the machine? ]
LIRR maintenance will probably shorten the life of the machine more.
Actually, that's not really fair. The "classic diesels", the GP38's and MP15's have actually been kept running pretty reliably for a long time. This leads me to believe that they probably have a decent Diesel Loco Maintenance program.
On the other hand, they don't seem to have a concern for the customer, and their MU maintenance leaves something to be desired.
The recent times article mentioned the dismal MDBF for the M1/M3 fleet. I wonder what the MDBF is for the GP38-2 fleet, and how that compares to the industry.
EMD locomotives will run forever as long as you keep lube oil and cooling water in them!!
Just like Detroit Diesel engines in buses.
And the thing about EMD or Detroit engines, if something breaks, you fix the part, start it up again, and it's ready for service. If it's a Cummins engine, you just throw away the engine and put a whole new one in.
Diesel locomotive prime movers are designed to idle for long periods of time. Many railroads never shut the engine down once it gets cold out.
This is all due to design of the engine. Far more problems can occur when an engine has been shut down than when left idling. Freeze ups and other moisture related problems can occur from shut downs.
If a diesel engine is left running (as long as it has coolant in it, and lube oil) it is better for the engine, as it will not expand/contract with the cooling from shutdown and heating from restarting.
If we were able to leave our car engines running all the time, they'd last longer too -- no wear from expansion or contraction.
Considering the way the LIRR maintains the restrooms in their MU's and the diesel coaches, I think that your comments are not so farfetched.
That's because when the loco isn't running, there's no HEP. Not only won't the toilets flush, but you won't have A/C or heat. Perhaps in the summer it makes sense to keep them running just to keep the cars cool.
The MNCRR shuts the locos down in winter and summer. When they open the cars an hour later its still cool inside.
That's what the stadnby power pugs at the terminals that the LIRRR installed are for. Of course, it seems they're not being used, and likely won't ever be, but why should that stop the LIRR from spending money on installing them?
Do any of you guys know where I can find good, color photogrphs of the Marcy Avenue el platform from around the mid to late 1960's? One of my "hobbies" is oil painting and I've decided to make that my next subject as soon as I'm finished with the painting I'm currently working on. Detailed photos of the platforms are especially appreciated. Thanks, Salvatore.
There is a photo in the car section of R-16 6486 at Marcy Ave. circa 1964. It's the last car of a #10 train.
I was watching TV this morning and saw a piece about a mini-series about an earthquake in NYC.
One clip showed a subway car(it looked like a car from the Bloor-Danforth line to me) being jostled in the tunnels.
It brought to mind the question, is any portion of the subway prepared in the event of something like that happening.
I'm pretty sure when the subway of Los Angeles was built, they built it to withstand those constant earthquakes(but I personally think they still have no business building one out there!).
I imagine that the oly portions might be the newly constructed like the Archer Avenue of 63rd St. lines.
Am I right or wrong?
I don't know if any specific planning for earthquakes has gone into ANY construction in New York. The risk of a major earthquake, such as hits California from time to time, is miniscule on the east coast.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually I think I remember reading recently that all new buildings (I don't know the start date of this) are required to follow some seismic activity related building code.
Mike
Subways in both Los Angeles and San Francisco were designed to withstand earthquakes up to 8.0 on the Richter scale. In the Loma Prieta Quake in 1989, BART suffered no damage in its tunnels. In contrast, the Bay Bridge failed, and BART carried record numbers of people from the East Bay while the bridge was being repaired.
Personally, I feel safer underground in a tunnel completely surrounded by earth than above gound in a free-standing structure. In a quake, the tunnel moves with the surrounding earth, while the free-standing structure may collapse.
Broadway El Steve: Why do you think Los Angeles has "no business" building a subway? I much prefer my 8-minute ride to work on the Red Line over a 45-minute ordeal on an overcrowded MTA bus, as would any sane person. In a city as large as Los Angeles, buses alone are totally inadequate for the job.
As this Rail Historian said in another thread, the subway is build like a elephant. This elephant can withstand ANY earthquake on any scale. It's built to last forever. However, there will never to earthquake in New York City.
There was a quake -- not a big one, but a quake -- in New York back in 1888, the same year the great blizzard hit that sparked the demand to build the IRT. Obviously, the snow stopping mass transit was considered a bigger concern than any shaking that would destroy the tunnels.
Never say never.
There actually is a fault line running under Central Park.
With all of the unprepared structures, from tunnels to bridges to skyscrapers(which would be even more dangerous since there are so many in New York), and unprepared people, a quake like Northridge which only damaged L.A., would crush New York(not meaning to downplay what has happened on the west coast).
We had a long thread about this during the early days of SubTalk. There is a fault in the NYC area; earthquakes are not uncommon. The probablity of The Big One happening is remote, but not impossible. I'll try to find the scientific reference again if I can.
Well, that didn't take long :0) Here's a N.Y. State Earthquake Page
During family get-togethers, my mother likes to tell the tale of how she slept through an earthquake here in the early 80's. When she awoke to find cabinet doors ajar and pictures fallen off the stand, she thought she had a break-in, only to see the news later that day and find out it was an earthquake.
It's just as hard to wake her up now:)
Todd, thanks for the link. I had the big quake in the northeast occurring in 1888 in another post, but apparently it was four years earlier.
Also, I think the Manhattan fault line crosses the island from 14th Street on the East River to 125th on the Hudson (If I remember a 30-year-old Daily News story right)
I said that half in jest.
Just meaning that the last place one would think to put something in the earth is a place where the earth is constantly moving.
While I do agree that in a city like L.A. buses alone aren't going to do much, they can't unless there's more buses and more people willing to lose their cars and ride them.(I don't now if this is still accurate, but as of the '90 census, there were more people in the L.A. area then in Greater New York)
I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I don't have high hopes for the future of rail transit in L.A.
But, as has happened before, I could be proven wrong:)
In my personal opinion the subways or acutally all rail service in or out of Manhattan faces a greater threat from a Hurricane than and earthquake. The main problem with a hurricane is that it brings massive flooding. Now if even a catagory 1 storm (hurricanes run from cat. 1-5, 5 being the strongest) would cause major flooding of the tunnels. I've been thru 4 hurricanes and I feel with New York City on the east coast basically right next to the ocean a hurricane produces a far greater threat than a eartquake. I'm not sayng earthquake should be taken lightly, I'm just playing the percentages.
To whom it may concern,
Just so there's no confusion on this matter:
The 1990 census recorded 19,549,649 people in the New York City metropolitan area and 14,531,529 people in the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The "1994 updates" which the census bureau provides showed 19,796,430 people in the NYC area and 15,302,275 people in the LA area. The NYC area's growth rate was 1.3 percent and the LA area's growth rate was 5.3 percent.
However, it is in terms of the actual cities (i.e., political entities) that the differences are more apparent. The 1990 census recorded 7,322,564 New Yorkers and only 3,485,557 Angelenos. The 1994 updates were 7,333,253 New Yorkers and only 3,448,613 Angelenos. In other words, the City of New York gained population while the City of Los Angeles lost some.
This data was from the Census Bureau.
"Greater Metropolitan Los Angeles" also takes in about double the area that the New York Metro area encompasses, about 60 miles to the east and west.
["Greater Metropolitan Los Angeles" also takes in about double the area that the New York Metro area encompasses, about 60 miles to the east and west.]
Dunno, the NYC Metro area also covers a huge geographical area. North-South, it extends from Beach Haven Heights, New Jersey (southernmost part of Ocean County) to Tivoli, New York (northermost part of Dutchess County). East-West, it goes from Port Jervis to Montauk.
I don't believe that the Los Angeles Metro area's geographical extent could be any larger.
As per the 1998 State and Metro Area Data Book (census bureau), the area of the LA CMSA is 33,966 square miles, compared with 10,165 square miles for the NY CMSA. The NY CMSA extends from New Haven to Trenton, and from Montauk to Pike County P.A. But the Riverside/San Bernadino section of the LA CMSA has 27,000 square miles of desert all by itself.
LA is more spread out even in inner areas. The NY PMSA, including NYC, Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam has 1,147 square miles for 8.6 million people. Los Angeles County has 4060 square miles for 9.1 million people.
No wonder the subway won't pay out there.
[As per the 1998 State and Metro Area Data Book (census bureau), the area of the LA CMSA is 33,966 square miles, compared with 10,165 square miles for the NY CMSA. The NY CMSA extends from New Haven to Trenton, and from Montauk to Pike County P.A. But the Riverside/San Bernadino section of the LA CMSA has 27,000 square miles of desert all by itself.]
If you exclude the sparesly populated desert area of San Bernadino County, then it seems as if the Los Angeles CMSA would be about 7,000 square miles - a big area, to be sure, but smaller than the New York CMSA.
Isn't the 60 miles to the west of LA pretty much taken up by about 55 miles of water?
Yeah, if I recall correctly, population DESENITY-WISE the New York area would win hands down.
To the east and west of LA proper are less densely populated areas like Glendate to the east and Thousand Oaks (in Orange County) to the west.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug aka BMT Man: Don't forget Arcadia, population 45,000. That's my city and a great place to teach and live. New York is much more concentrated while Los Angeles is so spread out it would take billions to rail all the cities with a unified rapid transit system. However, I think it would be worth the effort. The traffic around here is unbelievable----unbelievably bad and choked. Some of our freeways serve as parking lots during peak periods of the day. Come to think of it sometimes other than peak periods of the day.
Going out from Santa Moncia Blvd., yes, but most of Los Angeles proper is to the north and east of that area.
Take a look at a map of the area and see where the coast line curves west and goes about 100 miles before going back north yet. Cities all the way out to Santa Barbara are now "commuter suburbs," with people driving east on U.S. 101 to their jobs.
Dense enough population for big traffic jams and (maybe) extended light rail, but definitely not enough for a subway.
The political structures of NYC and LA are so different that any comparison other than (maybe) metropolitan area would be inappropriate.
Any other comparison is highly manipulable. For example, if you compare the population of LA COUNTY with NY COUNTY, LA would blow NY away.
Sir,
You are correct in pointing out the differences at the "county" level. However, what must be remembered is that the City of Los Angeles and the City of New York are, in fact, comparable entities to each other in that each elects a City Council and a Mayor, each has a common police force, each has city-wide zoning ordinances, et cetera. Although I believe you are also correct in saying the best comparisons are on an area-wide vs. area-wide basis, keep in mind that the political "age" of the NYC area (settled by the English and part of the U.S. while L.A. was still ruled by colonial Spain) means that there are few large "unincorporated county" areas, as there are all over the western states.
NYC is made up of five New York State counties because of the "quirk" of the 1898 consolidation where NYC grew by a combination "merger/annexation" as opposed to "annexation" alone. (Keep in mind that The Bronx is actually New York State's newest county, having been formed around the turn of the century.) Los Angeles grew by the more traditional western U.S. model where territory was continually annexed.
The other posts have struck only half the "nail on the head", so to speak. Density alone is not the only pre-requisite for rail rapid transit to prosper - trip origins and destinations must be somewhat concentrated as well. The two go somewhat hand-in-hand, but the single key variable is the land development pattern. If everything looks like the San Fernando Valley, then rail certainly will have a hard time of it.
However, we must not fall into the "L.A. is a car city" trap. There are certain corridors in the L.A. area (Wilshire, for example) which have densities that would justify rail. And East L.A. could certainly have used rail, but now it won't get built thanks to the boondoggle that is the LAMTA. Suffice to say that although buses will always be able to "do more" in a city like L.A., there are several areas that could have/will benefit from the rail mode in the western metropolis. (And L.A. was really "built" by the Red Cars; it has only relatively recently been substantially "rebuilt" by the freeways.)
Finally, also remember that in terms of urban studies, the fact that the U.S.A.'s largest city is twice as large as its second largest means New York is what urbanists call a "primate city". Believe it or not, this is seen as a sign of a Third World economy. I always had to remind some of the foreign students I went to school with that, as you stated in your post, the true comparison is metro area vs. metro area.
I think that concept was debunked. Most of the Third World countries with one large city were too small to support more than one city. Larger Third World countries (ie. India, China, Brazil) had more than one large city. The primate city theorists then claimed that each was an imperialist primate city in its own region, but what does that mean.
As a rule, if I learned it in grad school, I've decided its bunk.
For an excellent commentary on the history of rapid transit in the LA area, see "Who framed Rodger Rabbit?"
[For example, if you compare the population of LA COUNTY with NY COUNTY, LA would blow NY away.]
It's an interesting coincidence that the populations of Los Angeles County and New York City are quite close.
ahhh..its all gonna fall into the Pacific after the Pacific after the first of the year anyway..so what does it matter?.......gotcha!
Ah, if California fell into the sea, just think who we'd be losing.
Tom Leykis.
That would be bad.
Mexicans?
Tom who?
Reading the discussions of whether Hillary/Rudy/Chuck etc. ride the subway/have ridden the subway/could even be pictured riding the subway, I have more a relevant question: how much of the management of MTA/NYCT/CTA/WMATA etc. use the product.
This isn't just to show loyalty to the "product" or that they're suffering with the rest of us. You can bet the managers of McDonald's eat burgers and Egg McMuffins. Any good business is intimitely familiar with the product.
Historically, my lowest marks go to the New York City Transit Authority, c.1960. The TA provided an indoor, guarded, parking garage (between the 1st floor and subway level) for execs. But I don't give them bottom marks for that. I award that honor for inaugurating the least known and most exclusive express service on the system for those execs. 1960 (give or take) was when the TA inaugurated an express elevator from the garage level to the offices on the 13th floor. No other stops. So the bigwigs not only wouldn't have to ride the subway, they wouldn't even have to take a chance on sharing an elevator with some stiff who did ride the subway.
This was so embarassing that after some months they added a stop on the Subway Concourse level in case some exec wanted to actually look at the big train set that was rumored to exist in 370 Jay's basement.
Top marks go to the BMT c.1930. The BMT also provided parking for its execs. However, the parking was in Coney Island Yard. From there they had their choice of lines to get to the office.
Who out there knows what the situation on the various systems is today?
For my part, I know that at least some of the management staff of the LIRR use the road. This may be less out of commitment to "the product" than the fact that the Jamaica headquarters are (a) super convenient to the locales where most of the "suits" live and (b) driving to Jamaica is a pain in the butt.
[For my part, I know that at least some of the management staff of the LIRR use the road. This may be less out of commitment to "the product" than the fact that the Jamaica headquarters are (a) super convenient to the locales where most of the "suits" live and (b) driving to Jamaica is a pain in the butt.]
But not the Top (Rotten) Banana.
For that matter, how many politicians use any part of the transit system?
Politicians have the excuse that "they'd be recognized, it could cause a security problem." Hillary uses this excuse to use Air Force Jets instead of commercial flights in the event some fellow passenger in First Class, maddened on caviar and champagne, assaults her because he didn't like the cover design of "It Takes a Village."
But agency officials have no excuse at all.
Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis took the Boston MBTA Green Line to work/from almost every day when he was in office. He had an aide or state cop with him, but he made a point to talk to his consistuents on the trolley whenever possible.
Maybe if he had won his quest for the White House, he would have used the MetroRail to go to meetings at the Pentagon?
Maybe if he had won his quest for the White House, [Dukakis] would have used the MetroRail to go to meetings at the Pentagon?
For sure he shouldn't have taken a tank :-)
I can understand security concerns for national scale politicians (even Ms. Clinton), but what about the local politicians?
Anyone ever seen Rick Lazio on the LIRR? Or Jerry Nadler on the 1 train? These are the folks who make the decisions on transit spending or the lack thereof, yet the only time I've seen my local politicians near the subway is when they're pressing flesh before Election Day.
Why should they use mass transit when people like the mayor can be clocked at high rates of speed driven by paid city employees? What is even worse is the MTA's own top guns being driven to board meetings when they own passes that allowed them to ride for free on any MTA bus or train line, including the railroads. I can only say that ex president David L. Gunn rode the F and A trains to work on a daily basis to Jay St station. I don't think anybody that high up today notices that the R-32 signs are kind of small.
Gunn was also the one in charge when the MTA finally realized the system was totally falling apart and began the train and station repairs in the mid-1980s. We're not yet back to the Bill Ronan era, but padlocking the Jay St. parking garage wouldn't be a bad idea.
yes they're certainly far too small!
Steve, can they put a brighter lamp inside them?
Wayne
Yeah, like the LED backed dots used in new bus signs! They are much more visible.
[These are the folks who make the decisions on transit spending or the lack thereof, yet the only time I've seen my local politicians near the subway is when they're pressing flesh before Election Day.]
Oh yes, on of the things I enjoy most about the campaigning during the election cycle is when I must trying to avoid the dim-wits waiting at the top of the stairs at Belmont/Sheffield Station on the 'L' to shake my hand.
The point you make is correct about them NOT being anywhere near the subway, 'L' or bus; however, we allow them to get away with it. Even though they do not go near public transit, if we the riders, oh about 10% of us, sat down and took 20 minutes to write them a letter on a routine basis complaining about the service, damn straight they would start listening. The problem is that only one or two of us take the time – and look like the typical complainer to the politician. If 10%, or even 5%, of the riders hit their elected representative’s office with "what is wrong" on public transit, some action may be taken.
What we forget is that in our system of politics, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, an interest group has more clout than a few individuals
Jim K.
Chicago
This EMPLOYEE is actually looking forward to making a trip from College Point to South Ferry by mass transit next week. I'll start with one of our coaches, but will need to bring my MC because the TA won't let those "private" guys ride for free.
IMHO I agree that mngt employees should use the product, if not daily why not choose it over company/private car. The only down side for my meeting is that I'll be away from the office a little longer this way. For the guys comming from 130 Livingston Plaza it's a no brainer. But the other attendees will probally come by company car, that's their loss.
BTW, I've been to a couple of meetings in the Presidents' conference room on the 13th floor of 370 Jay Street, the express now stops at the lobby level too. It's a big room but otherwise just a room, i.e. didn't see any champague glasses, hot tubes, etc. Just a lot of subway maps on the wall with pins in them.
Mr t__:^)
Just a lot of subway maps on the wall with pins in them.
Ooooooo, that's scary.
When they stick one of those pins in the subway map, do you suppose the T/O whose train is in that station says "ouch"?
I wonder if one of those maps has pins by the Manhattan Bridge. It could use some UNDERpinning.
Rim shot!
I saw a notice yesterday that Motive Power, Inc. will be merging with WABCO next month (that's when the shareholder votes are to take place). Motive Power's primary work involves diesel loco repair and rebulding. In fact, they were just awarded a contract by the Boston MBTA to refurbish 25 of its commuter rail diesel locos.
I hope that doesn't mean no more mass transit calendars :-(
While riding on the SIR yesterday, I re-discovered something I had originally noticed years ago---the signals remain unlit and are not illuminated until a train enters the block, which is different from what I have observed in the subways over the years. Also, in the signal face (which is round) two green lights are placed at the 3 & 9 o'clock positions, the red at 12 and 6 o'clock, with the yellow at 1:30 and 7:30 o'clock. Where else is this type of configuration used?
The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad used color-position approach-lit signals. Since the SIR was originally a property of the B&O, that's why the signal systems differ. There is also a white lamp at the top, indicating that if the signal is red, it's a stop and proceed signal. There is an additional aspect (10 and 4) but I've never seen it.
-Hank
amtrack is gone over to color position signals now.
check out this site http://raildata.railfan.net is has the rules for the sir signals plus more info on railroad in the nj area.
Has the MTA published and distributed the new 1999 New York City Subway Guide?
This is the correct name, right?
Thanks
This question has come up several times in the past few months. I think the answer is no.
Mr t__:^)
The last one was 1998 !!!
Which would logically mean that the one following would be 1999.
The MTA has not issued a New York City Subway Guide since 1997.
As of 1998 the MTA has issued "The Map" containing the Subway Map on one side and the Commuter Rail guide on the other. (unless you mean something else).
Our friend Allan mentioned a "Lisa Lou American Glamorana" MC that a couple of collectors here need some help finding where to buy them. Can the Subway-Buff or any other friend/collector help us on this one?
BTW, The Mets Int'l set of six wasn't made avail. today at the City Search, Web site, as promised.
Repeat of a tip for City Search, make a friend so you can buy four Fun Passes to make the min $15 & not get stuck with them all yourself. My "friend" is buying the new "Rails" MC today (I already have the Stations and Wheels cards in the series ... it's more fun then buying them all at once ?!)
Mr t__:^)
The "Lisa Lou American Glamorana" $4 Fun Pass is only available at the
Transit Museum Store at GCT. This is to coincide with an exhibition of her work in the Vanderbilt Hall.
Wow ... I guess that is a small issue, i.e. will be a high priced collectors item in a few years. I had better RUN up there & get 1.
Many thanks Allan, Mr t__:^)
1. When did the Manhattan Els become electrified?
2. Where exactly were the BRT shops on the other side of the Brooklyn Bridge? How close were they to City Hall?
You have asked the Rail Historian a couple of neat questions:
The Second Avenue was electified in 1902. Experimental test on the 34th Street Shuttle were conducted around 1900.
The storage yard existed to the east of the Sands Street Terminal which dead end tracks at Tilliary Street. No shop on the Park Row side of the Brooklyn Bridge.
What about the 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave Els?
--Mark
The Rail Historian says the first to be electrified was the 2nd Avenue EL in 1902. I answered the question.
The question was, When did the Manhattan Els become electrified? , not which was the first to become electrified.
You identified the 2nd Ave El. What about the others? When did they become electrified?
--Mark
After some hard searching, I found my copy of "Under the Sidewalks of New York"(actually it's borrowed).
Inside was a timeline that stated the Manhattan els became electrified in 1903.
As for the BRT shops, there WAS one at Park Row, and there was a photo to boot. It looked like an indoor facility, so I don't know how large it was, but it did exist.
Before 1898, the BRT (or predecessor) shop WAS near City Hall.
The Rail Historian has seen the show on the History Channel on New York City Bridges. Robert Moses kicked many people out of their homes without compensation. At least Moses worked for 9 city agencies and collected money from only one. He definitely was not money hungury like the politicials. The Cross Bronx Expressway killed him. Moses did not drive and did not have a driver's license. This is truely ironic.
What do you think his ten commandments were?
1) No rapid transit.
2) The middle class rules.
3) Automobiles are supreme.
4) Build plenty of bridges and parkways.
5) Life is a Beach like Jones Beach.
6) If you get in my way you will be evicted.
7) Bigger is better.
8) Roebling is my hero.
9) The rich shall have no mansions
10) Collect the toll.
Since he left, New York has some new commandments.
1) Not in my neighborhood.
2) We're moving out anyway, so run up the debt, and don't build.
3) I've got mine; more jobs just help newcomers.
4) We insiders deserve our parking spaces.
5) Mass transit is great -- for other people. Lets keep it just the way it is.
6) If you can't do something you should be able to do, you just haven't paid off enough people.
7) The way to make money in real estate is to break the law; legalize later.
8) It was great to be affluent in New York in the 1920s. Lets try to go backward in time.
9) Do you have a condo in Florida yet? What surburb do your kids live in?
10) It should be free -- if you can't afford to maintain it for nothing, let if fall apart, since we'll be gone anyway.
It's an oft-repeated story, about how Robert Moses destroyed stable Bronx neighborhoods - thereby setting in motion the entire borough's decline - in order to build the Cross Bronx Expressway. But the real moral of the story is that repetition does not make something true. Moses-bashers (and they are legion) conveniently ignore the fact that most of the affected neighborhoods were already in a gradual decline well before the bulldozers came along. This is particularly true of East Tremont, the nieghborhood most frequently cited as a victim of the roadbuilders. New York was not immune to the growth of suburbanization after World War Two, and consequently saw an outflow of the middle class - and an influx of the poor - in places like East Tremont.
Another thing to consider is that the Cross Bronx is much narrower than what one would expect for an interstate highway. Whole neighborhoods were not destroyed by its construction. At worst, the Expressway cut a narrow swath through the surrounding areas, in most cases only a few buildings wide. Stable neighborhoods could have withstood the disruption. Neighborhoods already in decline could not.
Peter, I usually agree with and enjoy your posts.
The excerpt below is one of yours regarding Robert Moses and the impact of building interstate highways through neighborhoods. Can you substantiate your statement? Can you offer some examples of established neighborhoods that had an interstate run through their center and survive in a healthy way?
I'm referring to your quote below regarding the effect of the Cross Bronx Expwy and it's impact on surrounding neighborhoods like E. Tremont-
"Whole neighborhoods were not destroyed by its construction. At worst, the Expressway cut a narrow swath through the
surrounding areas, in most cases only a few buildings wide. Stable neighborhoods could have withstood the disruption.
Neighborhoods already in decline could not."
Operative phrase -- control group.
The South Bronx had a highway built through it and declined.
Windsor Terrace had the Prospect Expressway built through it and did not decline.
Brooklyn Heights had the BQE built through it and turned around.
Bushwick, Bed Stuy, East New York did not have highways built through them and declined.
North Philly did not have a highway built through it and declined.
Etc. Etc.
Caro's finesse of this issue (read the book) is based on the assertion that "white flight," while occuring all around East Tremont, had not hit at the moment construction occurred, but occured elsewhere. He bases this on a survey of elderly Jews who remained in the area by a Jewish charity. Thus, he claims, that East Tremont was exceptional and would have remained a middle-income while neighborhood without the expressway.
That is a weak argument indeed. Often, the elderly do not move until they are a small minority. But their children were not staying, and the people moving in were poor, before the expressway.
It is not incorrect to say highways (and elevated trains) have impacts, but the Caro book exaggerated the damage they do. The belief in his argument has probably done more damage to the city than the highways. What has gotten built since that book came out? Someone should write a book about Caro, called "The Affluent NIMBY Apologist."
Well,
While not technically a interstate highway(just US Route 1) the Roosevelt Expwy(which becomes Roosevelt Blvd. east of Broad St. was built through the Logan section of Philly, and it has actually worsened. Though I wasn't around when it was built, my understanding was that it was a nicer area to live.
In Philadelphia the areas that have highways going through them(Kensington[or the Badlands south of Girard] has I-95, Grays Ferry and west-South Philly have I-76).
I-676 cuts through just north of Center City, but is in the area with museums, libraries and high-priced apartments.
Let's compare the subway extensions while RM was in power to the number built since he was kicked out circa 1968 before we jump to any conclusions. What have we gotten since then? Archer Ave?
The 63rd St tunnel to nowhere.
[The excerpt below is one of yours regarding Robert Moses and the impact of building interstate highways through neighborhoods. Can you substantiate your statement? Can you offer some examples of established neighborhoods that had an interstate run through their center and survive in a healthy way?]
My hometown of Waterbury, Connecticut is an excellent example. In the early 1960s, Interstate 84 was built right through the center of the city in an east-west direction. At about the same time, state Route 8 (a four-lane, limited access highway) went all the way through the city in a north-south direction, meeting I-84 in a huge elevated interchange just SW of downtown. While I'm not old enough to remember things before the highways, I had heard many times about the massive disruptions that resulted. I would guess that the percentage Waterbury's properties that were condemned for the highways was far greater than the percentage of the Bronx's properties that were lost for the Expressway.
And yet, nothing too traumatic happened. The stable neighborhoods by and large remained that way, and the neighborhoods that had been deteriorating continued to deteriorate. While it's true that Waterbury is by and large a worse place than it was before the highways came, that is largely due to the loss of the city's industrial base in the 1970s, and the more or less contemporaneous influx of the poor and welfare-dependent.
One thing to keep in mind is that Waterbury never had a population density anywhere near as high as the Bronx's. It could be possible that highway construction has more deleterious effects in a high-density area, but I don't know for sure. As far as I'm concerned, Waterbury shows that highway construction is not as destructive to neighborhoods as sometimes feared.
My dad had to deal with Robert Moses at times, and he said he was an arrogant jerk. He also said LaGuardia had some of the same qualities (they both sound like a certain mayor currently in office, dosn't they?) -- they know what they want, and they know it's right, and that's the way it's going to be.
In New York, having a powerful personality at the top is sometimes the only way things are going to get done. I think Caro's book divides Moses' career into the relatively "Good Bob" -- the Moses prior to his lost 1934 election for Governor -- and "Bad Bob" -- who had gained enough control through TBTA and other agencies to get what he wanted, and that didn't include anything underground, be it the subway or vehicular tunnels.
Not all highways cause neighborhoods to delcline, especially if they are near an already desireable location (try the Sutton Place apartments above the FDR Drive). But since most people would prefer not to live next to an Interstate if they can help it, putting a highway in a marginal neighborhood increases its unattractivness to those in the middle class who can afford to move away.
What about Bushwick, it declined considerably, yet no highway was ever built through it. I doubt people moved out because they were afraid of the Bushwick Expressway (I-78, unbuilt).
Robert Moses=Death Knell for public transportation!
If RM was solely responsible for the death of Public Transport, why did other cities' transport also die?
For those who didn't know, the Rail Historian says the original Contract One subway of the IRT opened to the VIP on October 27, 1904 at 2:34pm. Opened to the general public at 7:00pm that evening.
what was the motorman's name?
Well....the mayor at the time, McClellan, was supposed to run the train for 500 ft, then turn the train over to a regular motorman...HOWEVER, being a NYC mayor (not to mention the son of a Civil War general...), he decided to run the train all the way up to about 103 st or so. (imagine that happening today??)
This is all documented at Day One on the IRT.
Oh, I know it's all in Day One, Uptown Downtown, Under the Sidewalks
and countless other places. Sorry, I forgot to include the
ASCIIgraphic for a rhetorical question in my original quip.
I think my point was to note that Rail Historian is, in the third
person no less, passing off FAQs as if it were obscure information.
I'll bet even money that Gibbs 3352 ran on that day, if it was on the property.
Someone suggested that since the LIRR was not appropriate to all the verbiage concerning those two protagonists, the title should be changed. Sea Beach Man agrees and we can now call it Rudy vs Hillary or Hillary vs Rudy if you're a mind to. There is a lot of interest in this potential race and I've already said that when I come to New York this Friday, it will be the last time I do if hilarious Hillary wins that seat. As a native New Yorker, I know your state is a great one, and I would believe that you wouldn't let some ambitious carpetbagger who has never shown any interest in the state come in and purport to represent you. I know that if she tried that in my California, we'd make short work of her in a hurry. While riding on the magnificent NYC subway the next 10 days or so, I will try to bury my consternation over the possibility of having that lady getting close to the Presidency which anyone with a brain knows that's her intent. A few more replies to this and then let's see if we can talk of something more pleasant like the subway. Chao
If Hillary does run, and if Rudy wins by a nose, we'll all have this to say about her: Close, but no cigar.
RIM SHOT!!!
Steve B-8AVEXP: Beautiful. That's what that ragdoll deserves--A cigar.
Can you imagine any woman worth her salt that would stay with a guy who is such a cheating moral degenerate? Anyway, please tell me what train is the 8AVEXP. I'm not sure but I will ride it when I get to New York this weekend. By the way, are you a New Yorker?
Many women stay with cheating men (or vice versa) for many reasons. I don't think that is any indicator of the first ladies character or moral values. Personally, I do not care about the President & Monica or Hilly and Vince (except that Vince 'committed suicide'). What concerns me is the state in which my family and I live and what will become of it if Hilly becomes a senator.
In my opinion, the two smallest books in the world are "Hillary Clinton and Ethics" and "We Can Do Without Mass Transit" by Hillary Clinton. The transit systems of NYState lost a friend when Al D'Amato was not re-elected in favor of "Subway cars have 7 wheels- Chuckie". With Chuckie and Hilly tag teaming the MTA, by the year 2006, The 6th 7th and 8th Avenue subway tunnels will be converted to Subterranian housing developments called Whitewater-East, Phase I, Phase II and Phase III. And about people getting to work, Hilly will say, "Let-em walk. If it's good enough for the Arkansas hilbillies, it's good enough for these bumpkins too."
(Hillary and getting to work).
More like if we stop hassling people about getting off welfare, they won't need a subway to get to work. And if deteriorating mass transit causes all the businesses to leave, traffic will decline, and the environment will improve.
Larry: Hassling people to get off welfare is what is needed to get the indolent to contribute their fair share to society. For those who really need some help because of physical problems I know Americans have good hearts and would now allow people to really need it to suffer.
I suspect Larry's tongue was in his cheek on this one, Sea Beach Man. From his previous postings, I seriously doubt that he thinks an economic downturn in NYC would be good for the environment and therefore desirable.
[I suspect Larry's tongue was in his cheek on this one, Sea Beach Man. From his previous postings, I seriously doubt that he thinks an economic downturn in NYC would be good for the environment and therefore desirable.]
I also believe that Larry was trying to make the point - which he's done before, and which few politicians seem to grasp - that getting more people off welfare and into the job market will be good for transit ridership. Some if not many of them will be using subways and buses to get to their new jobs. In contrast, people who are on welfare generally aren't heavy transit users; even if they have the money to ride, they've no place to go.
John and Pete and Larry: I embarrassingly stand corrected.
Steve: Then it up to you New Yorkers to make certain that she doesn't get into the Senate, and make certain that Chuckie doesn't make it a second time when his turn comes up again.
I intend to do my part. After 32 years as a registered Democrat (I did not always vote along party lines), I am now a Republican party member looking foward to the upcoming campaign. I have also been sponsored to become a member of a local Republican Club.
Joined the other SOBs, eh? After 20 years as an independent, I joined the Independence Fusion Party. Not willing to join the party that hates and tries to screw my city, or the party that sells it out.
Join the Dems, your joining Hillary. Join the GOP, you get Jesse Helms and the machine that wrecked Nassau County. Hey, ho, the leeches must go.
Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.
Larry, I hear ya, and a BIG AMEN to your post!
Doug aka BMTman
There are so many people here who presume automatically that someone who is Republican, a suburban resident, or both hates the cities and screws them every chance they get. I'm getting a bit sick of it, and I really don't think anything is ever that simple.
There are lots of suburbanites, and lots of Republicans, who work in the center cities and use public transit every weekday. Admittedly, they use mainly commuter trains and possibly a bus or subway to get to their office, but its transit nonetheless. Nobody is making them do it, and most of them have cars. Yes, there are lots of suburban residents who never go into the city out of misinformed fear, and proudly proclaim how many years it's been since their last time downtown. But if you ride the commuter or L trains on the weekend, at least here in Chicago, they are filled with suburbanites, including families with children, coming into downtown for a day of shopping, museums, or whatever. Why do you think that many empty nesters are now moving back into the city from the suburbs? They lived in the city when they were DINKs and they liked it. They only left when they had kids, because a city residence with the space to raise children is much more expensive than such a residence in newer developments.
There are plenty of Republicans in state assemblies who vote in favor of transit funding bills, if for no other reason than because they have constituents who use the trains. The main reason that many Republicans at the national level (that is, in Congress) don't favor transit is more because they are from non-metropolitan constituencies than that they are Republican. I'd like to know the voting record of rural Democrats on transit bills -- I suspect it isn't that different from rural Republicans. When a Republican, Michael Flanagan, was elected from my urban/suburban congressional district, he pushed hard among his fellow Republicans for yes votes on transit bills.
There's nothing *inherent* in the GOP platform or philosophy that is anti-urban. It seems to me that Republicans disfavor older Eastern cities because they have a reputation as bastions of machine politics and a hyper-liberalism that is a mix of the worst elements of New Dealism and political correctness. One has to admit that New York City has in the past deserved that reputation at least in part. Is it fair NOW in light of Guiliani's reelection as mayor and his policies? No, but I think the reputation of NYC in the GOP is changing for the better because of Guiliani and others.
I'm a Republican, and though I am for the time being living in the suburbs, I am very proud of Chicago. I use public transit to go to work downtown every day, and I also go downtown many weekends -- by transit -- for relaxation. Moreover, whenever the occassion is appropriate, I try to convince friends and acquaintances who are Republicans or Reagan Democrats of the need for public transit and adequate funding therefor, and to dissuade them of any misperceptions they have about transit and the people who use it.
And don't even get me started on how Jesse Helms is NOT NOT NOT the representative of the GOP and how I'm sick of him being dragged out as the typical, average Republican.
[There's nothing *inherent* in the GOP platform or philosophy that is anti-urban. It seems to me that Republicans disfavor older Eastern cities because they have a reputation as bastions of machine politics and a hyper-liberalism that is a mix of the worst elements of New Dealism and political correctness. One has to admit that New York City has in the past deserved that reputation at least in part. Is it fair NOW in light of Guiliani's reelection as mayor and his policies? No, but I think the reputation of NYC in the GOP is changing for the better because of Guiliani and others.]
NYC still has some of that hyper-liberal taint, even in the Giuliani era, because of the influence of the _New York Times_. It's the most influential newspaper in the United States, possibly the world, and has for all intents and purposes a monopoly within the city itself (both the _Post_ and the _Daily News_ are sports/entertainment publications with relative little real "news"). When Congressmen and other movers and shakers elsewhere in the country think of NYC political attitudes, likely as not they think of the _Times_.
It's possible that the _Times_ has grown somewhat more moderate in recent years. Even so, to a considerable extent it still embodies the Upper West Side, p.c., limousine liberal point of view. Not well-thought-out liberalism, a political philosophy that many people on the opposite end of the spectrum can at least respect, but mindless, knee-jerl liberalism. It also tends to have a condescending attitude toward almost everywhere outside Manhattan. As I've said before, the _Times_ seems to think that people living in the most sophisticated suburbs are little more than hillbillies. I can well imagine that this sort of attitude engenders a great deal of contempt toward NYC in other places. As I noted above, many people think that all NYC residents subscribe to the _Times'_ worldview. That's not the case by any means (*someone* voted for Giuliani), but perceptions can be more important than reality.
The New York Times is liberal???? Since when? Newsday is a liberal paper -- without question.
The Post and The Daily News are just dressed up Enquirers so they don't really count in the mix.
The Times is usually right-of-center on most issues although they do often back left-of-center candidates.
Doug aka BMTman
The Times tries to be moderate in recnet years on its editorial page, but when push comes to shove it's like a smoker trying to avoid lighting up just one more cigarette. It goes right to edge, then pulls back into familiar, comfortable territory.
Newsday, on the other hand, maintains the editorial stance of the preverbial liberal who hasn't been mugged yet.
I've long wondered why Newsday has been so extremely liberal.
I thought I had the answer when they brought out their New York edition, since it fulfilled the rather obvious suspicion that they really had their eye on trying to be a major New York City newspaper.
An interesting juxtaposition was 1991 (I think) when the MTA threatened to cut owl service on both the subway and LIRR. The NY edition complained rightly that NY was a 24-hour city and any suggestion of cutting service was outrageous. The LI edition, OTOH, thought that cutting the LIRR service was something that just had to be borne.
Now the NYC edition is history, but the Newsday editorial policy (the most liberal in the region, AFAIK) still soldiers on.
Paul, too bad the New York Newsday edition folded. I liked it since it was at least good jouralism. And it also had the always enjoyable Jim Dwyer doing the "Subway" column (remember that). NY Newsday was a viable alternative to the sensationalist Post and DN "rags". The Times, for good or ill, has always been pretty much in a class all by itself.
BTW, speaking of papers, Paul, I have a copy of a recent Brooklyn Daily Eagle that I could put in the mail if you'd like. I recall in an earlier post that you were curious about the "new Eagle". Let me know.
Doug aka BMTman
I would like to see that "Brooklyn Eagle," Doug. If you don't still have my address, email me and I'll send it again.
I still feel the loss of the old Eagle. Although it was a tabloid in its last few years, it was still a full-fledged and interesting paper, very analagous to Newsday.
One little detail of the old Eagle sticks in my mind. At the time of its demise, the seven NYC papers (except the News and Mirror) were a nickel, as was the Eagle.
But the Eagle was a nickel on Sunday. Complete with color comics. Like the cheap bleachers ticket to see baseball at Ebbets Field, that kind of bargain is long since history.
[I've long wondered why Newsday has been so extremely liberal.
I thought I had the answer when they brought out their New York edition, since it fulfilled the rather obvious suspicion that they really had their eye on trying to be a major New York City newspaper.
Now the NYC edition is history, but the Newsday editorial policy (the most liberal in the region, AFAIK) still soldiers on.]
Ownership, possibly? Times Mirror, whose flagship paper is the Los Angeles Times, owns Newsday. I don't know enough about the LAT to say anything about its political stance, but Times Mirror also owns the liberal Hartford Courant.
Good point John. It shows that political affiliation really doesn't matter much in general local terms -- but when it comes to national geographic areas -- that's where the difference really lies. Inner city folks and suburbanites really have more in common than they think -- now if only they could get together and stop finger-pointing at each other -- places like New York, and North Eastern states overall would really kick some major national butt!
People need to be reminded every now and then about the choice between hanging together or hanging separately.
Well John, I guess we are in danger of seeing hell freeze over because I agree with you.
Barry Goldwater was the worst thing that happened to the GOP. After he carried the South in 1964, all those Dixi-crats joined up and ruined the Republican Party.
The 8AVEXP is my all time favorite route, the A train, or the Washington Heights-8th Ave. Express. BTW, I saw a car with a California license plate the other day, and it has seven characters. So 4SEABCH would would fit nicely. As I've said before, I've had my personalized plates for 8 1/2 years, and so far only one person has figured out what they mean.
To answer your other question, I am a native Hoosier from South Bend and lifelong Notre Dame subway alumnus. We moved to New Jersey in 1967, when I was 10, and it was then and there that my love affair with the subway blossomed. When I was 16, we moved to Connecticut, where I remained until completing my degree from UConn (we are the champions!) in 1980. I've been a Colorado resident since September of that year. Many people at work think I'm from New York, since I talk about it a great deal, plus the fact that my speech has a certain Jersey flavor to it, with a lingering Indiana twang thrown in.
I'll bet you remember streetcars in L. A., seeing as how they lingered until 1963. Had I grown up there, I probably would have remembered them, since I do recall events from that time period.
P. S. What did you think of Hillary's remarks the other day about Mr. Bill's indiscretion with Ms. Lewinsky? Sounds like a front to me.
Steve B 8AVEXP: I don't thinkk much of anything Hillary says. She's a dirtbag, period---just like her husband. But I like the idea you are a Notre Dame man. I'm a big fan of the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. I went to Notre Dame last summer as part of my trip from Gettysburg to Cleveland (The Indians are my favorite AL team), to Notre Dame, to Chicago and attend some games at Wrigley. I hop Bob Davie gets off his time and beats SC this year. Losing to those guys really frosts me. I'll be in New York and Cooperstown from tomorrow to Aug, 19, and since this is the last day of summer school and the fact that my daughter will not let me use her computer than I'm paying for this is my last blurb until September 9. Chao.
My grandfather taught at Notre Dame from 1949 to 1963, so there are family ties there. I remember when the Hesburgh Library was being built in the early 60s. Go east on Edison Rd. from the campus for about two miles or so, and you'll be in my old neighborhood.
Ara Parseghian wishes he had the same success against USC that Lou Holtz had. I dislike that school intensely.
We have a couple of photos of what appears to be the 6th Ave. el which my grandfather took in 1936 while visiting the U. S. Not to mention numerous other photos of New York, including an elevated train pulling into a station.
I forgot another one that is used infrequently, or better yet rarely.....Hunters-Point on the Flushing line.
The Rail Historial knows someone who decorated their house in "Contract One IRT". He has globe lights on the entance. Ticket Chopper by the front door. Brass goose neck lights in his dining room. Ceiling lights from the IRT. Third Rail and insulators for staircase railings. Standing seem red metal roof. House is painted dark green. Stained glass from the 3rd Avenue EL. Power to house from a MG set. Master control of lighting from an interlocking machine.
Great place to visit.
Rail Historian,
You wouldn't happen to be Bob Dole would you?:)
Perhaps we'll find Beaver plaques in the den and cartouches in the bathroom as well!
Reminds me of my first apartment - I painted the living room yellow and brown to match Nostrand Avenue IND; the bedroom two-tone blue to match Broadway-Lafayette (the old tile) and the kitchen two-tone green to match Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Wayne
Wayne--youre weird!..but seriously.....did anyone notice??
Not really! What I did was paint most of the walls the lighter center color and did the trim, mouldings and a stripe 18" from the floor in the border color. It didn't look bad at all, especially the living room area. Rosemary (my wife) liked the two-tone blue. We've been painting bedrooms the same light blue (minus the border) ever since.
Wayne
Any TA or MTA plaques on the wall to complete the effect?
Nope - no plaques, just some ordinary pictures. As I mentioned, I only copied the colors. The colors in those stations are complementary, and are quite pleasing. It's too bad they redid Broadway-Lafayette with that dark blue during the rehab - the light blue was much nicer. I was trying to figure out what to paint the bathroom - Rosemary wanted pink. (it had white tile halfway up) - there are no IND stations in the red family that use pink. And copying the Tuscan red of Utica Avenue would have been WAY too dark!
So I stuck with pink, and didn't do a border.
Wayne
Are there any artifacts pertaining to the slant R-40s?
None there either, Steve. I guess I'm going to have to wait another five or ten years before I can gather some of those up. I am NOT looking forward to that day - the Farewell To the R40 fan trip - and when it comes, I will be wearing a black armband.
Wayne
I'm looking forward to the day I can put my IND sign box in a recessed wall opening and wire up the destination signs for illumination. I'm also toying with the idea of putting my bulkhead signs in an opening near the ceiling with a sliding door underneath and perhaps marker lights on either side.
My sign box is currently set for an Aqueduct Special for the first time, and my bulkhead signs are now back to A/Wash. Hts 207th St.
There is a building at the canarsie pier park that resembles a trolley station is the the old ternial(it is where the b-42 makes its loop) if it is not then where was the terminal
My memories of Canarsie Pier Park are about 50 years old. I have a recollection that the trolley terminal( and I've used the wooden structure with the curved wooden platform several times) was just about under the Belt Parkway roadway.
Yes, the curved platform and shelter is used today as a bus stop
The building at Canarsie Pier was built earlier this DECADE and is, and has always been a restaurant.
I thought there was just a "snack bar" at the pier and not the Abbraccimento Restaurant until only recently.
(I live about 1/2 mile from the pier)
Doug aka BMTman
As far as I know, the trolley terminal was in the right of way between E 95th and E 96th Sts, between Skidmore Av and St Jude Pl (formerly part of Rockaway Av [not Pkwy]). Most of the actual right of way is still empty land.
The B-42 bus turns around at Canarsie Veterans Circle, which was presumably built at the same time as the Belt Pkwy (late 30's or early 40's). There are 100-year old photos of buildings and amusement parks running southeast from the corner of Schenck St (formerly Schenck Av - no relation to the one in East New York) and Canarsie Rd (also formerly part of Rockaway Av). These buildings and parks extended across the area now occupied by the Belt Pkwy.
How did this Rockaway Avenue connect to Rockaway Avenue in ENY? Or did it not?
There was a Rockaway Avenue in Canarsie that was completely separate from the Rockaway Avenue in Brownsville and East New York. The Rockaway Avenue in Canarsie was renamed St. Jude Place in the 1960s to avoid the confusion.
However...
There is still a Schenck Avenue in Canarsie and another one in East New York. (I haven't been to that part of Canarsie in a few years, so it's entirely possible that the DOT is calling it Schenck Street or Schenk Avenue, or changed the spelling somehow to make a differentiation.
Rarely in New York do two streets carry the same name in the same borough. (In the 19th Century, streets were named North Moore and Great Jones so there would be no duplication).
Boston, however, makes no such effort and as a result, you have five or six Washington Streets alone there.
Whenever a municipality absorbs another, there is an additional problem of name duplication.
The Franklin Avenue streetcar line had the unique quality of running on two completely different Franklin Aves. It ran on the current Franklin Avenue, then Malbone Street (Empire Blvd.) and Ocean Avenue, then Franklin Avenue of Flatbush. The latter was renamed Parkside Avenue.
Long Island is full of entirely different streets with the same name. There are at least two Old Country Roads, Commack Roads, Nicolls Roads. Often each is a major road, though unconnected.
Many major highways change name as they run through various villages and hamlets, reflecting original names. Montauk Highway is Main Street as it passes through Babylon. People use Main to for street addresses, but might say Montauk to describe a driving route. But the real old timers call it Merrick Road, remembering when it was the major route to Jamaica and the City.
No wonder they came up with numbered highways.
Here's a trivia (with transit relevance). Hamburg Avenue was a major trolley route in Brooklyn. It is now a bus under a different name. What did Hamburg Avenue change to, and why?
I'll make a guess---the name change had something to do with anti-German sentiment during either WWI or WWII---but I have no guess as to what it was changed to---maybe something with a patriotic flavor.
You're halfway there. World War I because of anti-German sentiment.
This was the same war where people were calling sauerkraut "victory cabbage." I don't know if it is as directly connected to the war, but at about that time "German Toast" began to be called "French Toast."
Look at an old Fannie Farmer or other old cookbook. Same recipe.
[This was the same war where people were calling sauerkraut "victory cabbage." I don't know if it is as directly connected to the war, but at about that time "German Toast" began to be called "French Toast."]
World War I presented quite a dilemma for the town of Berlin in Connecticut. Its name obviously was no longer politically correct (ah, the wonderful days before that odious term became part of the language ...), but a full name change would have been too much trouble. As a compromise, the spelling of the name stayed the same, but almost everyone began pronouncing it to rhyme with "Merlin." This pronunciation caught on and remains in use today.
I heard that the original Culver railway (the one that the el replaced in 1919) had a Washington Avenue stop in Parkville. I consulted a 1916 street guide I happened to have lying around (don't ask) and sure enough, there was a Washington Avenue listed in Parkville, Brooklyn. It disappeared decades ago.
I believe Hamburg Avenue was in Bushwick-Ridgewood and changed its name to either Central or Western during WWI. There was a prejudice against German names at the time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
IIRC - they changed the name from "Hamburg Avenue" to:
Wayne
Good work Wayne.....
I remember as a kid, my dad showing me the raised letters for "Hamburg" under the newer painted "Wilson" on the metal "Knickerbocker Ave" station signs on the Myrtle Ave El.
Does anyone know if these signs still exist? I understand that the western exit (Wilson Ave +/-) is long gone.
Wilson Avenue = President Woodrow Wilson---very clever!!!
True, Kevin. But only one of the Washington Streets in Boston separates Winter and Summer!
Maybe they were trying to say that Washington was A Man For All Seasons.
The ROW for the Rockaway Parkway trolley did indeed run between E 95 and E 96sts, in fact, right behind my grandparents home @ 1515 E 95st
-Hank
An interesting bit of trivia about the original steam-powered Canarsie Line was that there was a station along the route between E. 95th and E. 96th called 'Holmes Station'. This was named after an African-American family that owned a number of residences along the route at around Skidmore Ave. I have heard that to this day members of the Holmes family still reside in the area.
Doug aka BMTman
Re the Holmes family in Canarsie:
There is a surviving dirt road called Holmes Lane in Canarsie. Check my webpage for a look at it as well as views of several other old Canarsie lanes:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/Canarsie%20lanes/canarsie.html
Does anyone have any information on the Lexington Av El (Such as when it was discontinued & taken down.) I see it on maps in books on subways but no reference to it. I work in the 81st Pct a block away from Ralph & Bway where the maps show it terminated (onto the J tracks). I cannot find ANY remnants of it either at that intersection or on Lexington Av.(Although the Brownstone are more set back on Lex than on other streets.) I do remember the Myrtle (I rode on it on its last day of operation) and there are many remnants to it left but the Lexington El must have been discontinued much earlier.
The Lex was abandoned in 1950.
You should be able to see evidence of its existence in the steelwork underneath the Broadway L at Lexington. It was visible last time I recall and there hasn't been major resconstruction that I know of that would have obliterated it.
In effect the part of the J Line from Alabama Avenue to just before Cypress Hills station is a reinforced but ultimately original still extant part of the original Lexington Avenue L.
The "Last Lex" was operated on Oct 13th 1950 at 9PM. The el structure was demolished in early 1951
Karl B
Thanks all!!!
The Lex was Brooklyn's first EL, it opened on May 13, 1885. The Fulton El opened in 1886. Both were steam powered, using Forney type engines, and wood railroad style coaches just like the ones on the Manhattan El's.
Hey Jeff,
Just to let you know, where the 79 stands now there was a station on the Lex El (Tompkins & Lex). When I tell anyone that there was an El that ran on Lex that stopped right at that corner they think I'm nuts.(alright, they may be true anyhow!)
P.S. If you rode the Myrtle Line you could seen a remnant of the Lex at Myrtle and Grand, (a turnout structure was still standing right up till the razing of the Myrtle Ave line.
Thanks Mike, When I turn out at the 81 (as a Sgt) we usually park on Lex between Bway & Patchen for coffee. When I tell the guys there was an El there I get the same reaction you get about the station on Tomkins!!! They think I'm nuts. (Although some of the guys saw the map on the wall at Subway hero shop so they believe me!! ) I cannot find any remnant of the el at all. Although someone earlier said there is one on the "J" el at Lex I don't think its there anymore. Lex does have more commercial bldgs than surrounding streets.
By the way, I still have a wicker seat from the Myrtle that I "borrowed" (I wasn't a cop then, just a teenage subway buff) on the last day of its existance. People were taking everything off the trains, including the REAL straps!!! I carried that seat home with me on the Jamaica El to Sutphin, the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hempstead Bus Comp Bus (long b-4 MSBA) to my home in East Meadow!!!! (At least I got a seat!!!) I also too alot of pix of the last run that day but my parents must have thrown them out long ago 'cause I could never find them.
Perhaps you should have "taken" a sign or something from the Supthin Blvd station, seeing how it's now just a memory.
LOL
Jeff, It's too bad that you were not around when the Lex was still in service. You could have seen the most fascinating station on the subway system. This was at the junction of the Lex and Myrtle. It was a three side-platform station. The Lex had a platform to stop at for trains bound for Bridge-Jay St. The end of this platform connected to the end of the Grand Ave platform on Myrtle. There was an overhead walkway from one Grand Ave platform to the other. There was no platform at all for Lex trains bound for Eastern Parkway so these trains had one less station stop. There was a switch tower above the tracks on Myrtle to contol the switches. This was a fascinating station and an ideal picture taking spot. I just wish that I had had a camera in those days. I could have gotten some great pictures.
Karl B
Could someone tell me what subway to take to basically get to and
from rockefeller center to 38 & 7th St.
Thanks so much!
Well, Rockefeller Center is at 49th Street between 5th and 6th Avenues. From 38th Street and 7th Avenue (which is what I'm assuming you mean), your best bet is to walk.
If you're dead set against walking the entire distance, I'd walk east on 38th to 6th Avenue, then north to the entrance to the 42nd street station (I think there's an entrance at 40th street and 6th). You can then take any uptown train (B, D, F or Q) one stop to the Rockefeller Center station.
But walk. You'll save money and time. And the weather is better than it has been in weeks.
Chuck
Keep in mind that in some cities streets are more widely spaced than in New York. The poster may not be aware of how short a distance this is.
Running north-south, 20 blocks is a mile. East-west blocks vary somewhat but one block east-west is generally the length of 2-4 north-south blocks.
So 38th to 49th is about half a mile. Seventh to Sixth is under a quarter mile. So the total walk is under 1 1/4 miles each way. Now, unless you have an unlimited MetroCard or you have a free transfer waiting from a bus ride you took within the past two hours, that subway ride will cost you $1.50 (or ~$1.36 with the 10% bonus), and you'll only be riding on the train 8 blocks (i.e., under a mile) -- the rest you'll have to walk. Add in the extra walking you'll be doing up and down stairs and the train saves you about half a mile. Is $3 per mile a good price? You'll have to decide yourself, but at that rate the A train from 207th Street to Far Rockaway (the longest single ride in the system, IINM) would cost about $100. (The run over Jamaica Bay is almost worth that much, but not quite.)
The bus will work also what routes are the best?
From 38th and 7th, walk east to 6th (note that Broadway is between 6th and 7th here, so that's actually two blocks) and hop on the M5, M6, or M7 (i.e., anything that stops for you). To return, walk west to 7th and take the M6 or M7 down to 38th (note that it'll drop you off on Broadway, not 7th), or keep walking west another (short) block to Broadway and take the M10 to 38th (the M10 will drop you off on 7th). (I've heard rumors that the M10 is now split into two routes, but I'm six states away and the MTA web page doesn't seem to mention this. Apparently either section of the former M10 will do for you, but I don't know what numbers they use. If you board any bus other than the M27 and M104, you should be fine.)
But you'll be spending the same $1.50 on the bus as you'd spend on the subway, and there's a good chance you'll hit horrendous traffic (i.e., walking will likely be faster). As before, it's probably not worth it unless you have an unlimited card or you have a free transfer waiting from a recent ride on the subway or on another bus.
1. Any 6th Avenue train(B,D,F or Q) to 42nd St, walk down four blocks and over to 7th
2. Walk over to Seventh and get the 1 or 9 at 50th Street and take that to 42nd Street and walk down four blocks.
3. M6 or M7 buses.
I was on a coney island bound N train today and they stopped us at 36th st because of a scheduling problem. Then they havd a B train, a M train which w as a R train and a local N train stop on the local track. Then they ran my train express to stillwell and the other one local. Does anybody know why?
laterz
blackdevl
There could have been a delay somewhere on the Sea Beach line.
Maybe I'll get lucky this fall and catch a nonstop express.
You knew I would get my antenna up when I heard the Sea Beach mentioned. Is the Sea Beach still an express? It was always supposed to be. The 4th Avenue Local was the local and the Sea Beach was the express. What gives? I plan to ride the Sea Beach many times when I come to New York tomorrow, but I sure as hell hope it's not a local. Hello out there. Anyone got some info on "my" train?
It's express in Brooklyn on weekdays. that's it. Go to the MTA Website if you want to find out about your favorite trains, when they run, where, how, whatever.
Hello Folks,
Just thought I'd let you know that as I was passing on the Bruckner Expwy, today, 8/3, I spotted a piece of LIRR equipment at Oak Point Freight Yard in the Bronx. What was it you ask? An LIRR Power Pack, I say!!! It was an FA unit numbered 613. It was by itself. I wonder where that old unit was heading off to? Any thoughts?
It sounds like the disposition of Locomotives has begun. Speaking of which, whatever happened to Locomotive #3100?
-Stef
[ It was an FA unit numbered 613. ]
Aww, that's terrible.. I've been behind (or in front of) that unit many times. Anyone remember the unit # that had the collision recently in Glen Cove (a day or two after the slamtrack "City of New Orleans" affair?). I think it was 613, but I'm not sure. It was a FA power pack, I know, and I know it wasn't noticably damaged -- more than I can say for the truck it hit.
I wonder how one of these Kawasaki cab cars would have fared?
How would the Kawasaki's have fared in an accident? Good question! I hope they're not made of junk or we'd all be in trouble....
-Stef
[ How would the Kawasaki's have fared in an accident? Good question! I
hope they're not made of junk or we'd all be in trouble.... ]
Well, they _will_ be in an accident, I can say with relative certainty. We'll see how they perform when it happens. I know they must meet FRA standards for safety, but still don't know what they'll look like after an accident.
Metrolink, in southern California, had an accident involving one of their cab cars (#608) a month after they began service. The train hit a large municipal dump truck at an unprotected crossing. The cab car did sustain moderate damage, however, the collision posts as required by FRA, did what they were intended to do, and prevented any part of the interior from crumpling.
The engineer did have the smarts to bail out after he dumped the air, and run to the lower level of the Bombardier car! The cab window, though made of safety glass, could have caused some injury when it shattered in that collision.
Amtrak has also had a few similar instances with their former Metroliner cab cars in use on the San Diegans, and they basically fared well -- no crushed cabs, dead crewpersons.
If you look back to October, 1967 -- LIRR's RDC cars were in a collision with a dump truck in Holtsville. Apparently, RDC's didn't have the strong collision posts as today's equipment, as the entire front end of the RDC-1 (#3101) was crushed, and the engineer died in the collision.
[Metrolink, in southern California, had an accident involving one of
their cab cars (#608) a month after they began service. The train hit a large municipal dump truck at an unprotected crossing. The cab car did sustain moderate damage, however, the collision posts as required by FRA, did what they were intended to do, and prevented any part of the interior from crumpling. Amtrak has also had a few similar instances with their former Metroliner cab cars in use on the San Diegans, and they basically fared well -- no crushed cabs, dead crewpersons.]
Something similar happened on Metro North three or four years ago. A Bombardier single-level cab car struck a flatbed truck carrying a crane, which had high-centered at a little-used grade crossing. As with the Metrolink incident you describe, the cab car remained physically intact despite sustaining some damage to its front end (although it partially derailed). According to the NTSB report, there was a total of $500,000 in property damages. The report didn't break down this figure, so I don't know how much it cost to repair the Bombardier car - some of the damages were attributable to the crane and the flatbed trailer, both of which were destroyed.
That was #607.
My favorite old loco is #621 - an absolutely filthy and ancient machine, but still hale, hearty and active, as far as I know. I'm going to miss those old engines, but NOT those godawful coaches!
Can't they do anything about the new-vinyl stink that the new bilevels give off? It's enough to gag a goat!
Wayne
There was recently posted in alt.binaries.pictures.rail a photo of LIRR 611 in Oak Point Yard, and it appeared to be stripped of useable parts (not that there were many....air horns, some grilles) and the thing was covered in fresh-looking grafitti!
The 604 wound up, a few years ago, at the Portola Railroad Museum in northern California where it was slated to be repainted to (gasp!) Union Pacific colors. I don't know whether it has been done or not, it's only 650 miles from where I live.
That's good to know. I guess some FA's are going to get some much needed rest. Put them to use in a Museum somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong but these locomotives no longer have prime movers, eh? I guess they'll be static displays if they can't move under their own power, or in the case that we have now, the power packs would continue to be just that - a powerpack.
-Stef
Hello again!
I am putting in a request for information regarding NYCT GE Locomotives.
The question pertains to assignments, which I am presently trying to find answers, so our respected web site host can reflect on the site.
Questions pertain to: GE Electrics - Two Electrics were sent to the LIRR several years ago to work on those lines. Numbered 400 and 401, they could usually be spotted at Sunnyside. Anyone know whether they were sold to LIRR or were they borrowed by the LIRR? I would also like to know which units they were (I believe it's OEL06 and 07, but Dave informed me he spotted OEL07 at Corona recently). Are there still GE electrics over there?
Locomotive assignments on the SIRT: I would like to know what's happening on SIRT. Two GE diesels made it out there. Those units are 57 and 58, I believe? Can anyone confirm that? I'd also like info on the Alco unit(s) in operation on the SIRT so this too may be added to the locomotive page.
Finally I haven't seen Loco 64 in a while. Sources say that 64 was out on the Metro North Line performing swichting duties over at GCT. Did that unit come back?
Your help would greatly be appreciated.
Stef
Of the two electrics sent to Amtrak for tunnel catenery work, only one is servicable. Both are leased to them long term. One is sitting at the LIRR Morris Park back shop.
They were modified to meet FRA standards and have the steps cut in, rather than ladders, and the cab seats were changed from stools to captains chairs. Cab Signal equipment was added and a RR radio installed.I do believe PATH had one too for a while.
Thanks Mr. TP!
So the units belong to LIRR, then? The units are LIRR, but are being used for work on the NEC in the vicinity of Sunnyside.
Question: What are the numbers of the two units now? What are their former NYCT designations?
-Stef
Don't remember the numbers. Sorry. Also Amtrak leases them and LIRR stores them. I believe the designation is GE SL-35E
I went to Union Station, Washington, D.C., and bought the August issue of Railpace Magazine.
The bottom half of the front cover is a photo of an R44 A train crossing Jamaica Bay, but it does not show the headline. I have to turn to the third page that the headline is actually "Subways Aboveground." I am surprised that there is an article about NYC Subways in this issue!
Joe Greenstein writes the article and take the photos. They are all good! I like it very much.
Chaohwa
Four former LIRR GP38-2's have been repainted in a Hunter Green and white livery for the NY&A. I saw a picture of one of them at the Fresh Pond Yard; #268. All four are leased by the NY&A.
270 is another.
Does anyone have information about the abandoned Jerome-Anderson station near Yankee Stadium? When I was a teenager growing up in NYC in the mid-1950s (I'm now in Kansas City) I traveled the subways on Saturdays for adventure. Suppose I wouldn't recommend it today, but I had no problem then. The station was an abandoned El stop - a shuttle once part of the 9th Avenue El (I believe) - that became a subway through a rock outcropping. Back then, I walked around a chain-link fence across the entrance, went up to the platform, and there were two gangs who had made it their home. I thought I was in real trouble, but they showed me around! Like I said, a different time. Is the station still there? Any stories or info. about the line?
Don,
I have been asking questions about the former Polo Grounds shuttle, (as the line to 155 St Manhattan was known) so far not much.
Just to clarify for you; the line branched off the Jerome Line and the first stop was Jerome-Anderson Ave. After this stop the line became a quasi-subway through a hill then exited for a stop at Sedgwick ave, then over the Harlem River to the Polo Grounds at 155 street.
The line closed in 1958 when the Giants left, and from what I understand it stood until 1961 or 1962, when it was demolished. How much is still intact (including what is left in the tunnel) I don't know and have been asking anyone with info for help.
I have a little extra info about the line, but not much about what remains.
Mike H
What is needed to start a MP-32 LIRR loco? What do you have to do?
It's not like a car right? Can't just push a button or flip a switch?
There's more than one switch, actually a few that have to be flipped in a certain sequence, on any locomotive. Depending on the model, the switches are located in various places.
From what I remember having ridden in some loco cabs, there is a fuel pump switch on the control panel, then on the rear wall is the "isolation" switch. Maybe someone with railroad experience can enlighten us all.
I remember on SD45's, after all the cab switches were set properly, the crewman starting the engine had to do it from inside a hood on the rear right side of the unit. That's the only one I ever saw being started up....it was on the Southern Pacific
Hello folks I have to comment about the now abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THIS LINE? Its been dead for some 37 years now. Does this line have ANY FUTURE OR NOT? Hello MTA wake up if your not going to use it then get rid of it. COMPLETELY!!!!This is an eyesore. I personally think they should continue the A line all the way down to where it reaches Queens blvd. Crossing over the LIRR Main line. Any ideas? Whats this ficticious stuff about a Light Rail Thing? Let me know.
I think that line might see some form of use in the future when/if the JFK/LaGuardia shuttle ever gets built.
BTW, stranger things have happenned.
Doug aka BMTman
Tom, May I suggest you do a search of this site by keyword, as there has been a lot of discussion here about the JFK Express and history of Far Rockaway line from LIRR main at "Whitepot Junction". There are some obstructions on the line now & a lot of NIMBYs who like the trees in their back yards. You'll also learn that recently this ROW was seriously considered when the approval process was going on for the Van Wyke Expressway planned route.
You'll also see that many here agree with you that this ROW makes a lot of since .... but then politations don't necessarily do things that make since.
Mr t__:^)
The line is in a kind of limbo.
On the one hand, no one has really wanted to face down the NIMBYs along the right of way if they have any choice.
OTOH, the line is so well sited that the regional planners don't want to give up on it either.
Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath.
There are continuing attempts to grab the ROW, egged on by NIMBY neighbors. One little break and its over. BTW there is construction up against the LIRR ROW, I belive to the east of McDonald. The community in that area is not very tolerant of regulations and the property rights of others. I wonder if they are building in the ROW, shrinking it to a size that would not allow two tracks?
Hey, I've figured out how to save the line from the NIMBYs! Build or buy a "Thomas the Tank Engine" replica (after paying the due license fee, of course) and run it up and down the line, advertising the living bejeezus out of it in the neighborhood. Any parent that pushed for removing the line would have to face ongoing tantrums from their kids, crying "Where's Thomas? You killed Thomas!" (^:
A suggestion most humorous (but just a tad serious) from:
John B. Bredin, Esq.
jbredin@planning.org
There is an interesting thread of postings on this subject at Railroad.net in their NYS railfan section. The url of this thread if you want to see it is http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg0717162323996.html?14
Another 2¢ worth from me re: the LIRR Rockaway Branch. I have never heard one peep in the press or on the radio from the residents of Forest Hills Gardens, whose beautiful apartments back RIGHT UP AGAINST the LIRR ROW about the railroad next door. LIRR trains are for the most part, relatively quiet. The Rockaway Branch should receive the best roadbed possible, with concrete ties. AND as a bonus - re-open the five stations and provide some local service as well. Perhaps a new Rego Park stop west of the old one with some access to Queens Mall. A new Brooklyn Manor stop with a connection to the "J" line. A new Parkville stop all dressed up like the new Forest Hills stop. Restoration of Woodhaven and Ozone Park stations. Of course, there should be express airport service as well. Run out the express from Penn or GCT and let the local follow it a few minutes later, like they do on the Babylon line. The locals would also terminate at JFK.
Wayne
You're talking a lot of sense, Wayne. I've lived most of my life within earshot of rail lines--currently about 350 feet from diesels and electrics pounding by on an elevated line at up to 80 mph.
Honestly, the nearby highway bugs me more--and not because I'm a railfan--noise is noise.
But the people along the Rockaway r-o-w just know that the government wants to put something in their community which they don't feel is going to benefit them, and might have a negative impact.
If I were them, I would worry about the construction noise, debris, obstruction, more than the actual trains.
If the government would grease them with some money and some goodies, that might win them over.
Yes, the sounds of all those chippers going at once could certainly raise a devil of a racket. Not to mention pile-drivers, graders, tunnel-boring machines (for that little stretch near Union Turnpike), cement-mixers, &c &c.
Ultimately, everyone will benefit if this line is re-opened. I figure it would take an express 25 minutes to get to JFK from GCT, probably 30 or so from Penn (provided there are no delays). And ONE seat. Perhaps they can get some special M-7 cars with extra-wide luggage racks or compartments just for the Airport service.
AND while we're at it: let's hook it back up to the Atlantic Avenue branch and re-open Woodhaven station. All you need there is a switch.
Wayne
Since the LIRR still own the ROW, anybody who builds on the ROW should be charged with tresspasing and their construction from the ROW cleared.
Which reminds me -- is that freggin' giant spider still hanging from the signal tower on the old LIRR Rock ROW?
Doug aka BMTman
[ Which reminds me -- is that freggin' giant spider still hanging from
the signal tower on the old LIRR Rock ROW? ]
Yup :) Just saw it today.
For a look at the spider, and other scenes from the Rockaway Branch, see this page in Forgotten NY:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
[Since the LIRR still own the ROW, anybody who builds on the ROW should be charged with tresspasing and their construction from the ROW cleared.]
Actually, I believe the city now owns the ROW.
I'm not sure if it applies here, but there is a legal theory of "adverse possession" which means that if you openly use someone else's property (such as by building on it) unchallenged for a certain period of time (15 years?), the property becomes yours.
So it might be worthwhile for the City or whoever to periodically tour the right of way, and have any encroaching uses ended.
[I'm not sure if it applies here, but there is a legal theory of "adverse possession" which means that if you openly use someone else's property (such as by building on it) unchallenged for a certain period
of time (15 years?), the property becomes yours.]
At least in some states, government-owned property cannot be taken by adverse possession no matter how long it's used by someone else. As the old Rockaway line is city-owned, it should be safe from adverse possessors.
The City could reaquire it anyway by eminent domain.
A. The City cannot be adversely possessed against under NY law. I researched the question some years ago.
B. They should still clear out the squatters periodically so that no one can go to the politicians with an argument that it would be unfair for the City to enforce its rights after all the time that they have been there.
C. Eminent Domain just gives the City the right to pay again for whatever piece it has to buy back, if it has disposed of part of the right of way.
D. Has anyone checked to see if the City has leased, sold, or granted an easement on any part of the ROW. I walked most of the right of way a few months ago and found two notable obstacles that I can recall: a huge apartment house has its parking lot in the ROW south of the junction with the Montauk Branch; and a school bus operator stores its buses on the ROW south of Jamaica Avenue. Hard to believe that either of them just went ahead without getting permission. Which reminds me:
E. Adverse possession has to be adverse. If property is used or occupied with permission, title never passes to the user or occupant.
Call out the TBMs, folks; you'll have to dig halfway to China to get around (UNDER) that apartment building. Plus - there are 100,000+ trees in the way, many of them quite mature (what a pile a mulch and logs THEY'LL make!). The school bus yard? They can probably be compensated (buy 'em out).
The Rockaway LIRR branch is THE ONLY WAY to JFK. Let us reclaime it for the publick goode.
Wayne
TBMs? Tunnel Boring Machines? Or am I guessing wrong?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd prefer some TEMs or Tunnel Exciting Machines! I just feel so sorry for all those tunnels that have to endure all that boredom.
OK, now is that getting old or what?
Being that the "Train To The Plane" was a total flop, I don't see any LIRR train going to JFK to be a big success. (Or the ridiculous light rail over the Van Wyck idea either) People going to the airport to catch a flight that costs hundreds of dollars with loads of luggage are going to take cabs or have someone drive them. Employees of the airport will have much more direct routes than taking the train to Jamaica and connecting to a JFK route.
I'd much rather see the LIRR reopen the Central Branch!!! (the ROW is still pretty much there) This way there there would be service to the NC Med Center, NC Jail, Eisenhower Park, Nassau Comm College, LI Children's Museum, The Source, All the stores and restaurants on Merrick Av, (like Fridays & Symms) and finally train service to East Meadow & Levittown!!! The only thing that would be lost would be the firehouse at Clinton Av (It would revert back to a Station!!)
By the way, back to the Rockaway Branch-Does everybody know that at ENY Station the sign still says, "trains to Long Island and The Rockaways"?
The train to the plane was a total flop because:
1) too many stops/too long a travel time
2) delayed JFK trains stuck behind late running A trains
3) JFK only connected to bus and did not go direct to terminals
On the monorail - I totally agree with you.
As for a direct link from Penn Station to JFK - that would bring alot more riders than you think. All of the disadvantages listed above are eliminated - so long as the train makes stops at all the major terminals.
Advantages gained include:
1) less than 30 minute travel time to JFK from midtown (even during rush hour)
2) likelihood that you will only need english to communicate with travel personnel
3) relatively cleaner and more spacious ride than back of a Ford Crown Victoria
4) lower fare (the LIRR won't try to charge $30 to JFK.)
[I'd much rather see the LIRR reopen the Central Branch!!! (the ROW is still pretty much there) This way there there would be service to the NC Med Center, NC Jail, Eisenhower Park, Nassau Comm College, LI Children's Museum, The Source, All the stores and restaurants on Merrick Av, (like Fridays & Symms) and finally train service to East
Meadow & Levittown!!! The only thing that would be lost would be the firehouse at Clinton Av (It would revert back to a Station!!)]
Train service in that area certainly would come in handy. Levittown and East Meadow surely have many commuters, who now have to fight for parking at Hicksville or along the Babylon line. But it's hard to imagine rebuilding a train line across the middle of Eisenhower Park. It would have to run underground through the park, which obviously would increase its cost big time.
[ By the way, back to the Rockaway Branch-Does everybody know that at
ENY Station the sign still says, "trains to Long Island and The
Rockaways"? ]
I think I remember seeing that. It's still technically true, you can still get to Far Rock by going in that direction.. You can't really get to the same intermediate stations, though, like Ozone Park, etc.
Jeff, This is lible to start the whole conversation all over again on this issue, but there seems to be quite a few new commers on-board, so what the ha...
I too will have to disagree about the branch at Whitepot Junction then down the old ROW to JFK. I see Manhattanites, folks from NJ & CT plus many others ... but it looks like the Port Auth is going another way, i.e. via Van Wyke, so it may never happen.
The Van Wyke m-a-y draw some employees of JFK, but I have to feel that the route was picked for political reasons rather then it being the best one.
Mr t__:^)
No need for TBMs. The ROW is under the parking lot, not under the building. It's only covered by a few inches of black-top.
One commnet - the City of New York owns this right of way. LIRR does not. When the City purchased the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch in 1952, the property included the now abandoned r.o.w. from Whitepot Jct. southward. The original intent was to run subways from the Rockaways to midtown via the old r.o.w. and the Queens Blvd. line, where provision for an interlocking was provided east (north) of the 63d Drive Station. This link, of course, has never been built, since the only connection ever made for Rockaway trains is at Rockaway Blvd. in Ozone Park. BTW, the original plan was for both services (via Fulton St. and via Queens Blvd.) as well as a transfer to the Jamaica Ave. El at the old Brooklyn Manor Station.
Didn't any of you guys (and gals) get a look at tonight's 'Nightline'? It dealt with the horrible deaths of 500+ in the Bombay head-on train collision that occurred over the weekend.
I saw the THEIR VERSION of rush hour and am happy to say: "we are nowhere near that maddness in Bombay". They showed a standard commuting day where a train made to hold 1,700 swells to 7,000(!!) when mobs end up hanging off the sides (like some school kids used to do years ago -- 'subway surfing'). And there were even as much riding inside as there were on the ROOF of the train! What insanity!
Anybody else see the program?
Doug aka BMTman
They aren't?
Humm, sounds like certain branches of the LIRR at rush hour. Wouldn't you say?
I did see a prior show on rail systems in India, where I saw people packed on the train. We have a demographer from India at City Planning, and here is his rebuttal.
Bombay trains are actually far more comfortable than the subway, he says. The people hanging off the train in 3rd class are poor people who earn less than a dollar a day on average. In NYC, they couldn't afford the subway. Anyone who could afford the subway travels first or second class, in upholsetered seats with plenty of leg room and service.
Bottom line -- when in the Third World, always travel first class. Their first class is the equivalent of our working class.
"The people hanging off the train in 3rd class are poor people who earn less than a dollar a day on average. In NYC, they couldn't afford the subway. Anyone who could afford the subway travels first or second class, in upholsetered seats with plenty of leg room and service."
The Nightline program seemed to confound the Bombay commuter service with intercity trains. The accident which prompted the Nightline segment involved intercity trains far from any principal city, but the movie they had to illustrate the program was primarily about the Bombay commuter system.
I'm pretty sure that you're right about 1st and 2nd class being relatively comfortable (seats, bunks for long-distance trips, proper toilets, even air conditioning) and that many poor people ride the roof. However, I'm also pretty sure that there are damned uncomfortable but dirt cheap 3rd class accomodations **inside** the train, while those on the roof aren't 3rd class passengers, or even legal passengers at all, since they haven't got tickets and didn't pay any fare. I doubt the conductor climbs up on the roof to check tickets! But all that is on INTERCITY trains.
The film of the Bombay COMMUTER trains (5 million passengers daily, in a city of 14 million, and a train arriving at the downtown terminal at rush hour every two minutes!) showed people on the roof AND crush-load standing-room-only crowds **inside** the trains as well. I doubt there are classes on Indian commuter trains, any more than there are classes on commuter trains in the US or Europe. Whether one sits in a seat, stands inside the train, or rides the roof seemed from the movie to be decided much more by who gets on the train first than by class, either socioeconomic class or ticket class. Just like the subways here, although it hasn't gotten as bad as riding the roof. (^:
In other words, people ride on the roof on Indian intercity trains because they can't afford the fare, while people ride the roofs of the commuter trains because they wasn't any room left inside the train when they got on. And no amount of money is going to buy comfortable accomodations on an Indian commuter train at rush hour. (^:
(Only inter-city has classes of service)
My co-worker says that commuter trains also have higher class accomodations, with guaranteed seating, and separate cars for women.
A disaster like that was just bound to happen. After all, most of India's best RR people are now working for the NYCT.....
...and our best car inspectors are working in Bombay...
Ouch! OUCH!! No rim shot!
These days, I can close my eyes and swear that I am working in Bombay....
Not as bad as being in the Coney Island main shop and finding yourself in "Little Odessa"
Can you guys spell Xenophobia?
Anyone know what type of signal system is used in India. From newspaper reports it sounds like a manual block or something like that. Just curious.
From what it sounds like, they probably have some barefooted guy in cut-offs with a red or green flag in his hand who stands out in 100 degree heat all day waving them at oncoming trains. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
The accident happened at 2AM - the dead of night. Supposedly some towerman/signalman wrong-railed the Brahmaputtra Express into the path of the other train. He then fled - this is what they do in the rest of the world when there's a train wreck.
As for the Bombay commuter rail segment - it's almost comical watching those hundreds of people hanging on the outside of the coaches. They have no clue that it's dangerous to do so. I guess they figure safeth in numbers. The interior crush loads can get almost as bad in NYC. I was on an "A" train back in April 1998 (it was an R38, #4031) which got SO CROWDED at Nostrand Avenue that I feared I would be injured in the crush (I wasn't) and when we arrived at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the doors opened on the LEFT side, the Marx Brothers stateroom scene replayed itself - people (including myself!) began falling out of the open doors. It wasn't funny!
Wayne
At least nobody got sick, right? I remember getting a lot of dirty looks on a crowded rush hour D train back in June of 1978. All because I was lugging the IND bulkhead destination mechanism I had just picked up at Cityana Gallery.
Speaking of crush loading, have you ever seen any of those classic photos of Connecticut Co. open bench trolleys packed to the gills with football fans headed to Yale Bowl?
Yesh, I haves one of them in my old Trolley Car Treasury book - page 192 - showing Connecticut Open Car #840 en route to Yale-Bowl with what looks like 150 people on board, many hanging on to the outside. I bet she's still running around Warehouse Point. There's also an ace picture of PCC #1001 on page 183 signed up with a B68 sign. Doesn't some museum have that one too?
As for that most unpleasant (but mercifully short) trip on one of my favorite lines (the "A") - no, nobody became ill, thank goodness, at least not while I was aboard. But I had to twist and turn and squirm to keep my balance. At Nostrand, the train, already quite crowded, was boarded by a very LARGE number of passengers, a number of them quite large in stature, and none showing an iota of mercy. I chalked it up as typical rush-hour behaviour. My only concern was to get out at Hoyt to continue my photo shoot.
Wayne
PCC 1001 reposes at Shore Line, as a matter of fact, and it runs.
GOD BLESS! She's 63 years young! Is #840 still up and running? What about my old favorite - the open car #34? I was a youngster (1962) and we went up to Branford and rode up and down the line on her. What a joy!
Wayne
Yes I saw that! HOLY COW! That is one of the worst train wrecks I have EVER seen! Those coaches (especially the blue ones) fell apart like tissue paper. One train was travelling at 60 MPH. What kind of coaches are those anyway - they look like 1950s-vintage British trains.
Wayne
If those were ACMUs or Commet coaches, would they fall apart like that?
According to a documentary I saw, India uses pre 1900 British trains. Labor is so cheap, and new stuff so expensive relative to income, that it cheaper to have huge crews maintaining old steam trains than to replace them with diesel or electric. They repaint the metal so often it last forever, and fabricate new parts as needed.
Which makes me think -- I wonder if India would be interested in the Redbirds? Are the compatible with any of the the subway/commuter rail lines? Even for non-electric lines, the traction motors could be removed to save weight and they could be hooked up to a steam train.
From what I have seen on the Internet, Bombay and Calcutta do have subway systems, but believe it or not, the equipment is VERY modern (for India....) in both those systems.
It's the "heavy rail" (i.e. railroads) that have the ancient stuff made from tin foil. Maybe they should send the LIRR P72 push-pull fleet over there to help them "modernize".....
Saw a picture in Newsday today- they were hoisting what was left of one of the engines out of the pile. Didn't look like a steam engine- rather looked like a diesel (or what was left of it). It was smashed to smithereens. As for the Pre-1900 coaches - that is probably true of the brown coaches but the blue ones (they fell apart worse than most of the brown ones) looked to be somewhat newer. Anyway, even the decrepit MP-75s would be an improvement over what they have. Unfortunately, the MP-75s are spoken for. I wonder if any IC or Shore Line 1926 Pressed Steel or Pullman-Standard coaches are still floating around - perhaps India could use some of them. Betcha THEY wouldn't have fallen apart like that.
Wayne
> Unfortunately, the MP-75s are spoken for. I wonder if
> any IC or Shore Line 1926 Pressed Steel or Pullman-Standard
> coaches are still floating around - perhaps India could use
> some of them. Betcha THEY wouldn't have fallen apart like
> that.
If anything, India would be better off to spend this hypothetical money on replacing their manual signals with any kind of interlocking. Avoiding collisions will save far more lives than designing passenger cars that can survive a head-on impact at 60-120mph.
We do not, after all, design aircraft to withstand mid-air collisions--we design the air traffic control system to prevent them.
CH.
Of course I was being facetious! All signs point to human error in this tragic accident. You are absolutely correct in stating that the signal system needs to be modernized and some sort of fail-safes should be implemented.
Wayne
I just felt the point needed to be stated. All too many people in the US railroad community take the car approach to safety (survive what you hit) rather than the airline approach (don't hit anything). This line of thought is, IMO, one very large reason why high-speed (read: useful) passenger rail service is non-existant on the continent. But I digress...
In other words, this is a bit of a sore point for me.
CH.
I think you meant to say South Shore instead of Shore Line. Of course, if two of those had collided, you'd have had a Triplex-like collision. I don't think too many people would get a bang out of that.
Many of the old South Shore cars wound up in trolley museums; in fact, only a handful were scrapped. As to how many are operable is another story. Since they were wired for 1500 VDC operation, some modifications would be necessary for 600-volt operation. East Troy restored one coach as a dining car and painted it red; it is run frequently on their museum grounds.
They weren't BMT standards, that's for sure. Or IC Pullmans, or Big Orange South Shore cars, or Triplexes....
If they were R-1/9's, then there would not have been so many killed
Hey--
I'm making a film about how the subway has affected gentrification and white flight in New York City neighborhoods. Does anybody out there have any suggestions on where I can find information on this topic? Books, articles, websites, documentaries, people?
Thanks,
-subgirl
divisioniii@hotmail.com
I don't know if the subways aided in 'white flight', but certainly gentrification -- or yuppification.
A start might be with the book 722 Miles. The author's name escapes me at the moment, but it has a section or two that discusses the way ethnic groups were able to venture forth from the teeming areas of the Lower East Side, and Harlem to the outer boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens via the subways.
Hope that helps you out.
Doug aka BMTman
722 miles is by Clifton Hood. A must-read for all urban theorists and subfans alike.
The CUNY Institute for Transit Research @ John Jay College offers a course in "Transportation Systems & Urban Development". I took the course in 1995 and found it packed with the sort of information you are looing for. Perhaps you could contact the professor who teaches the course and he can refer you to the current text. If you need further information you can E-mail me and I'll happily point you in the right direction.
I'm only posting this message so I can change my name, I always forget otherwise. While we're at it, what was the first RR in New York City at the time? Today's NYC? The NYC region?
I'm an idiot, I forgot to do what I wanted in the original post!
I'm not sure, but in Manhattan I would guess the NY and Harlem River (later NYC, PC, CR,MNRR). On Long Island the LIRR, still the LIRR. In nearby NJ, the Camden & Amboy, later PRR, PC, CR. now I guess still PC, which still exists to jointly operate what's left of the line for CSX/NSC.
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd try to track this down and, if I'm correct, see which of these was the very first in the region. I'll guess Camden & Amboy.
The New York and Harlem Railroad began service as a horse car line from Prince Street to Union Square on November 26,1832. This is the company that to this day still holds title to the Harlem Line and Grand Central Terminal which are leased to the MTA.
The Camden and Amboy started in December 1832 between South Amboy and Bordentown NJ.
I should mention that the first trains on the NY & Harlem were double-headed,that is to say they were pulled by two horses.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How come trains always seem to come into stations on a yellow even if the other signals furthur down the platform are green?
Not likely that you'd see a yellow entering a station and then
a green midway down the platform, but it is common to have a green
leaving the station and yellows on all the signals within the station
and the one entering it. The rationale depends on whom you talk
to. One way of looking at it is that yellow is an Approach
indication, saying be prepared to stop, and the station stop
you're about to make is the stop. Personally, I think that's silly
but that's the way the IND was signalled, and during re-signalling
of other divisions that same principle was copied.
I noticed that when trains leave south ferry misters come on to wet down the tracks. I imagine the very sharp curve at the station generates a lot of heat. Is that why they are there?
Nope. The water acts as a cheap and simple lubricant to cut down on the wheel noise. This has a few side effects.
Good-The water will keep stray sparks from igniting garbage on the tracks
Bad-it raises the humidity level in th station substantialy.
-Hank
Riding the trains during the midnight hours, I decided to observe
conductors' procedures when entering a station. As you know,
midnights is the stomping ground of the low of seniority, so this
is a good place see how rookie conductors work.
Much to my surprise, with almost no exceptions, conductors did
not stick their head out before opening the doors. They all did
point as required by bulletin orders, but most did not actually
make eye contact with the board they were pointing at! The pointing
just became another one of the motions in the routine, like turning
the Vapor key, as if pointing were somehow necessary to make the
doors function.
Conductors were generally either staring into the PA panel, talking
to passengers who were outside the cab, or otherwise not looking
at the board or the platform area.
I doubt this is just a run of conductors with attention deficit
disorder. It seems as if in training, conductors are not being
taught to stick their head out and observe the platform conditions
before opening the doors. Perhaps someone like Erik who has
recently been through the conductor training course can comment.
As someone pointed out, we didn't have these problems with triggers
and caps!
In London, guards always open their own door before the train comes to a halt. If there is a wall, or an empty void, then this is immediately apparent. Does this/could this procedure take place in NYC?
[ In London, guards always open their own door before the train comes to
a halt. If there is a wall, or an empty void, then this is immediately
apparent. Does this/could this procedure take place in NYC? ]
Not on the subways, as there isn't a door in the cab area where the conductors are.
It is the practice on the now retiring LIRR diesel fleet, though. The conductor turns a key on the platform which opens the door at that position, and activates the buttons which will (usually :) ) open the doors trainline in front and behind him/her.
The new diesel coaches have door controls in a small open "compartment", kind of like a cab, but without any door, seat, or operating controls. This will probably make it harder for conductors who are "vertically challenged" to properly see the train in the platform.
Note that the LIRR doesn't have "indication boards" like the subways does, and I've seen trains where the doors open when not fully on the platform, but I haven't seen any "wrong-side" incidents.
taught to stick their head out and observe the platform conditions
before opening the doors.>
The only time my head goes out the window is when I'm closing the doors and observing the platform as the train leaves. In most stations I can see the board while standing in the cab, so the only thing that goes out the window is my hand. Since I can still count on one hand the people who have taken swings at my head, I see no reason to give them any more of a chance than I already do.
The rules require that you observe the platform for 3 car lengths. If your head is not out the window, you are not performing your job properly. Of course, as I mentioned previously, there are numerous conductors who can't observe the platform without standing on a milk box. Step ladders would be dangerous so either mandate shoes with lifts or enforce a height requirement for safety.
This may sound like a really stupid question, so please forgive me. Regarding the rule of pointing to the board, does that mean physically point to the board the way a tourist would point to, say, the Empire State Building from the Statue of Liberty?
I still find it difficult, if not impossible, to understand how a conductor could open up on the wrong side. It's just common sense.
I wouldn't be surprised if more of those "Do not open up - Wrong side!" signs used at 59th St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn start appearing at other stations.
The Rail Historian believes that any Conductor of train who has opened the doors on the wrong side MUST BE FIRED IMMEDIATELY. The Union must not support him or her. This is 100% neglegence on the part of the Conductor who is totally in charge of the train. Of course this all assumes no equipment problem.
Dump a few people on the track and you have big trouble.
You can say that again.
[ egarding the rule of pointing to the board, does that mean physically
point to the board the way a tourist would point to, say, the Empire
State Building from the Statue of Liberty? ]
Yup. And in the case of opening on the wrong side or otherwise, it means pointing at a tunnel wall or out into space, and then opening up.
Maybe they should just get rid of the trainline doors, and have them manually operated, like on the (shortly to be retired) 2900 series LIRR coaches.
Of all the LIRR fleet, those had the most reliable doors.
(They are manually operated, and there's little to break!).
In Phila. the new M-4 Market cars are opened by the motorman (or women
from his/her seated position in the cab. The operator then watches TV screns which show both sides of the train. The cute thing is that yellow signs have been posted at the front end of each station platform saying "right doors " or "left" doors. Now why do you think
they had to do that?
Chuck Greene
To stop the operator from opening the wrong side of the train!
I know that. I was just using a little joke. It really helps out in case the operator gets distracted or forgets.
Chuck Greene
But that requires they read english!!
NYC Boards are just that, BOARD THERE, OPEN. Board NOT THERE, Don't Open!
No reading or knowing your right from your left required.
That's about as funny as putting "open other end" on the bottoms of Coke bottles.
[That's about as funny as putting "open other end" on the bottoms of Coke bottles.]
This Rail Historian will drink to that thought.
Conductors must POINT to the indication board before opening the doors. Supervisors observe from the platorm if they do it too. The number of times doors have opened on the wrong side has dramaticly increased this year (up to 7 or 8?? I know there was 6 a month ago).
They have even installed a "voting machine" so the T/O can vote on which side the doors open on a few trains as a test.
And you should just read the howls of outrage from the conductors in the previous thread about the "voting machine." It seems some of them think that their prerogatives are more important than passenger safety.
Passenger safety wasn't an issue untill a SMALL percentage
of UNDERTRAINED and IMPROPERLY SCREENED for employment
Conductors began opening on the wrong side. Money is the
chief issue with the Transit Authority, and safety is only
as important as it relates to saving money and preventing
bad publicity. As a non employee I wouldn't expect you or
any one else who hasn't experienced the Authority's utter
contempt for their employees to understand.
Although my preogitive as to being vehemently against this
or any other device that takes away the conductor's
responsibilty or authority is based on an instinct of self
preservation, it's also based on reality.
Training and operations come from the operating budget.
Improvements to the system come from the capitol budget.
The operating budget is the only one they really care
about because it's funding is limited. The capitol budget
has new and greater funding (basically) each year. So the
constraints on use of those funds is more relaxed.
There is frequently excess money in the capitol budgets
for many reasons. If that money remains unspent they will
either have to return it or the the following year they
will have that amount deducted from the grants they
reccieve. So they spend frivilously.
It's this duality of funding that drives some of the
innane experiments with technology at the TA.
So if they can save cash (operating budget) on training
idiots as conductors by spending a fourtune of capitol
improvement dollars on some tom foolery device, then
they're happy. It makes them look like they are doing
something, and it didn't cost them anything, Technically.
And I don't wan't to hear anything about how those funds
are meticulously accounted for. That's Bull. We all know
any good accountant can creatively fudge the numbers. ALL
government agencies do it. TA is no exception.
Satan runs the TA.
speaking as a former Conductor myself it really has noting to do with training it is more the result of the person themself not paying attention to the job/duties. Inattention in any job title can be unsafe for oneself or others involved.
Did I not also mention that the new hires are not properly screened before employment?
Last week I explained how it's not always innatention. Proper training on the layout of the line would help.
But the only thing that will raise the level of professionalism and consequently lower these types of incidents is more training and better screening of applicants. The current civil service system must go. People have to know how serious their job is. We need to hire adults with a satisfactory work history, and who have a comitment to the job. Not people who veiw it as a stepping stone to motorman or whatever.
What level of preemployment screening are we talking about here? what moron couldn't see that a platform does not exist and still open train doors? the title and job of Conductor used to mean something. The training provided in school car isn't what it should be for the title of Conductor or for that fact any other title. Break in for C/R is one day for most lines and on some its split between two shorter lines for an 8 hour day. Lets see something, an individual from an open comptetive list for Conductor is still held to the same standards as a promotion to C/R which is under collective bargaining and civil service rules. Disciplining a rule violation is up to the severity of the infraction (warning,reprimand,suspension,dismissal) not in this order. Opening the doors without a platform is a dangerous pratice which should warrant dismissal.
If an applicant were using Conductor as a STEPPING STONE for another title wouldn't they be more mindful of their job performance?
The stepping stone attitude was in reference to the fact that in the previous contracts we gave up:
Work Trains
Revenue Collection Trains
Refuse Collection Trains
Some of our platform jobs to Station Agents
Some of our Construction Flagging work
The Shop Bugging Jobs
Put ins
Lay ups
OPTO
ALL, because our fellow conductors didn't care enough, or get involved enough to fight for their own jobs. Why? Because they viewed it as a stepping stone to another job.
Now as for what prerequisites i'd have? Foremost is a SERIOUS background check. Has the applicant been fired before? What types of jobs has he/she held? A customer service background would be helpful. Education? The types of things employers in the rest of the world ask for.
As I wrote last week in response to Steve's post "is pointing enough?" he current civil service system tests some basic knowledge, but NOT inteligence. You could memorize all the facts and figures you want. Stil doesn't mean your'e smart. Too many people confuse inteligence and knowledgability. I could go on. Just read the response I posted to Steve's.
Yes and I remember the good old days when at East NY, the crew for shop moves included two motorman and a conductor to trolley. Boy, I wish we still had the RTO trolley person. The C/R also threw the hand switches in the yard. If you guys demand the trolley jobs back for RTO, I think DCE Management would support it.
Handswitchmen(conductors) still throw the switches in East New York Yard and Canarsie Yard as well. In 38th Street Yard there is one hand switchman at the head of the yard and the work train motormen handle the rest.
There is another factor in training which bears attention. Quality, as well as quantity made a big difference in the way "old school motormen" were churned out. In the old days, the Motorman Instructors in school car had 20 to 30 years on the job with 10 to 15 average as a motorman. They knew not only their stuff, but didn't hide their mistakes as well. I'd sit in class with half the time listening about an old timer's error because it was part of the curriculum. The TSS of today includes some who just got the job with the two year T/O requirement. They swear by a book instead of reality. One had a derailment as a T/O and they gave him the promo anyway. At the least a TSS should KNOW his car equipment! Some of the new ones don't. I heard today that out of the 1500 T/Os who took the TSS last month, only 500 passed. Did Eric mention that Satan runs the TA? I think he's right.
Maybe it's time for an exorcism....
Who says that the new 'hires' are not properly screened? I'll have you to know that of the 2 or 3 dozen Road Car Inspectors hired in April, and put through 8 weeks of rigorous training, ONLY eleven were just fired because it was found that once they got out into the field, they mysteriously lost the ability to communicate in english.
I think I am beginning to agree with you. Livingston Plaza has been over-run by morons. BTW - How doyou say "Beam Me UP, Scotty" in Russian?
When I worked in Coney Island Maint. there were a lot of Russian Immigrants working there. I'd presume because of the proximity to Brighton Beach.
One had actually worked on M.U. cars in the Soviet Union. He (purportedly) had tutored his comrades on the technology. Subsequently they took the civil service exam and were hired as Car Inspectors. One had been a hair dresser and another was a school teacher. One was eventually promoted to MS II. He had a fondness for calling the hispanics in the shop "maticonski"
How do you open up the doors on the wrong side? Unless it is a sick joke or you're just stupid, how can you not see what side to open up on?
My feelings exactly. It's enough to make you say, DUHHH!!!!
Seems like alot of scatter brains who aren't paying attention to their duties as Conductor are making it harder on the ones who do their jobs consiecniously(check the spelling please). Stop reading the paper or paperback, chatting with the foxy babe or dude and do your JOB! personally making the announcement as the train was entering the station makes more sense so as you're making the announcement your see LIGHT from the platform and hey then you open he doors!.
Even new C/R's who are too wet behind the ears are making these stupid mistakes, Look up look out the window if the train stops is the train stopped in a station? if you see tunnel or bright sunshine and not PEOPLE and C/R board your not in the proper position...
I couldn't agree with you more.
A number of factors contribute to this cause. 1) The TA does not properly train and supervise new conductors today as in the past, actually the people teaching them have hardly any experiecne themselves, 2) A lot of these clowns just don't pay attention, (like they're too busy staring at some woman's behind and not what they should be looking at), 3) The TA hires anybody and everybody these days all in the good old name of politics. I may sound like a radical, but I've been a conductor now for almost 13 years and all these people do is make my job harder. I have enough to
contend with - I don't need some supervisor telling me about the same old nonsense day in and day out just because of a bunch of morons that don't know what they are doing. I'm cutting myself short here because I could go on for hours about this - I hope I made my point.
Actully there are a Lot of High Seniority Conductors that work Midnights so they don't have to worry about lots of people. The Low Seniorty T/O and C/R work the PM Tour. Like 3PM TO Midnight because everyone aviods the PM Rush Hours if the can.
Aren't the conductors just plain scared to keep their heads out of the window for extended periods of time because of all the nice people who spit, throw garbage and punch them as the train is traveling at high speeds through the station?
I remember as a boy that the conductors position had a step to help them get up higher to see a little better.
Yes that is the main reason why some Conductors are affiad to stick there heads out the window and I really don't blame them. There people like you said who trow objects at the Conductors head. On A Division a Conductor is injured at least once a mouth or more. I always look out for my conductor. If I see a strange person with an object I will slow my train down and Inform my conductor. You just know when somethings up. When I was new and it was my 2nd year as a Motorman. My Conductor was getting spit at and closed the window but hurt his hand so ofcause he pulled the cord and told me he was hurt. So I ran back there and Discharged the train. I was fuming over that incident. I acted so fast . So anyway I went into 137 Street Middle where there was a Motor Instructor. The Conductor wanted to go to that Hospital around 215 Street. So we held up the Road and it was full speed to 215 Street where the Motor Instructor and Conductor got off and I took the train to 240 Yard.
You've got a valid point, there. I would be a bit aprehensive about sticking my head out of a subway window at some stations. The conductors do get a lot of abuse. Forget being spit on, kids throw rock at the conductors' heads and some people even fire gun shots at certain conductors.
Seems to me one solution is to just grab the offending kids as the train goes by. Once the train is at full speed they could just be thrown into the tunnel.
True. The lowest seniority people work late PM's. You are pounding the road all evening and then get jammed up in General Order Diversions on your last trip. Just when it's time to go home! There are lots of people who would rather work midnites than the PM shift. Customers act more civilized in the AM rush because they're sleepy, The midnite personell will take them to work toward the end of their shift. On the PM, the passengers act like animals.
That's not true! Just look at me. I understand there are still lots of those lousy early p.m. jobs left.
Was the Nostrand Ave. station on the A,C lines once called Bedford-Nostrand @ one time? I believe there is a closed exit at Bedford and Fulton............... Anybody clarify this...........
3TM
Despite the IND taste for giving double names to some stations (Kingston-Throop, for example), old IND maps don't show Bedford attached to the Nostrand Avenue name.
The Fulton L also had a Nostrand Ave. station.
Bedford-Nostrand is the stop on the G you may be thinking of.
I never thought Sea Beach Man would be looking forward to riding another train as much as the Sea Beach, but I'm looking forward to riding the #7 train out to Shea Stadium to watch my Mets play. You New Yorkers have the best of both worlds. Get on the #7 or #4 trains and go out and watch two great baseball teams whenever you want, and the Mets have become an outstanding team. Meanwhile out here in California we have the dregs in the Angels and Dodgers, both of whom are mired in last place. There is no escape because they are always on TV stinking up the place. I'd like to start my own cable company so I could get WWOR and watch the Mets anytime I want. It was great to wake up this morning and see the Mets in first place all by themselves. How about a Mets-Yankees World Series. Believe me, more than New York would be jumping and jiving.
[ I'd like to start my own cable company so I could get
WWOR and watch the Mets anytime I want. ]
Unfortunately, Fred, the local broadcast arrangements for NY baseball have been changed since you've been here!
FOX bought the right to all of the Yankees games that used to be on WPIX. Shortly thereafter, WPIX bought the Mets games that were on WWOR. Now, WWOR has no baseball.
Steve K: I see that Ruppert Murdock has put his greasy, grimy, and filthy hands on NY TV as well. I hope they televise enough Mets games so you can see a good team in action. Rup always has the Dodgers on out here and it makes me want to throw up. Strange, though, because the Dodgers followed by out to California three and a half years after I left NY. However, while I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers, and belong to their fan club, I have no feeling except hostility to the LA Dodgers.
Actually,Fred, if you want to see the Mets, all you got to do is buy a DSS satellite dish and subscribe to the MLB Extra Innings package. This will pick up all the Mets games on Fox Sports NY (about 1/2 to 6/10 of the schedule) plus anytime the Mets are on somebody elses Sportschannel..(not to mention WGN and TBS...) Now, to put this back on topic (sort of...), I absolutely cant stand anytime the Mets are on either FOX or NBC, they show the #7 and some dope announcer keeps either hummng or mentions somethinf to the effect of: "take the 'A' train to to see the Mets...or some other drivel....
Slightly off topic, but the 7 train did make the news today because of a billboard in Sunnyside that supposedly has an anti-immigrant message. The story referred to the number of immigrants taking the 7 and its designation as a National Historic Route by Hillary last month.
Thanks for the info Lou. If you know how much they cost let me know. When I get back from New York, I'll look into it. Sounds like a great idea; too bad I didn't think of it. That's what I like about this web site. There are plenty of helpful people. I fly to NY tomorrow and one of my friends who used to play baseball for me and is now a major league asst. scouting director got me tickets for the whole four game series starting this Friday against the hated Dodgers.
I'm planning to enjoy myself and the Mets winning.
I've got tickets for Friday night against the Dodgers. I have every intention of standing and applauding when they announce Todd Hundley.
-Hank
Hey, that's great Hammering Hank. You root for Todd and I'll scream for Mike Piazza, who will probably win the NL MVP Award this year. I wish Hundley the best and hope his arm comes back. He's not the reason the Dodgers suck.
Well, I'm a Mets fan all the way, but I really think the way they treated Hundley last year was horrible. I mean, here's a guy, who, when the team traded for a replacement, turned around and said 'I'll try to play left field if you promise not to trade me' Having met him once, I can say he's a really nice guy (unlike Ordonez, who, as good a feilder as he is, is too arrogant), and I truly believe he got a raw deal from the Mets (Hundley, that is)
-Hank
It seems that after Hundley had elbow surgery, he became "damaged goods".
Speaking of the Dodgers, look who's managing them. Only the most successful manager in Met history, next to Gil Hodges.
Hey fred..Im going on Sunday! Wanna meet somewhere?? As far as the DSSh is concerned..check out eBay.com...they are always having incredibly cheap Dutch auctions of DSS dishes...sometimes you can pick one up for as little as $30!!!! I SWEAR!!!
One more thing Lou. I'm glad I haven't heard those morons singing take the "A" train. It shows they are idiots when it comes to knowing the New York Subway. If you don't know anything about the New York subway then you don't know much at all
You would have been able to "take the A train" to see the Mets at the Polo Grounds in 1962 and 1963. Well, most of the way, anyway. The D train would get you there the rest of the way.
Fox do the same thing with the Yankees.... They always show passengers getting off the 4 train.........
Steve K: I see that Ruppert Murdock has put his greasy, grimy, and filthy hands on NY TV as well. I hope they televise enough Mets games so you can see a good team in action. Rup always has the Dodgers on out here and it makes me want to throw up. Strange, though, because the Dodgers followed me out to California three and a half years after I left NY. However, while I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers, and belong to their fan club, I have no feeling except hostility to the LA Dodgers.
Few weeks ago, I took the F train to Coney Island and noticed
there were R-27s and R-30s painted redbird style in the yard. I am
qwondering will these cars soon become a "Nostalgia Train" in the 21st Century? Could they use these cars to take tours of the IND and BMT
network?
When the first group of Subway Cars built in married-pairs
arrived to the IND and BMT lines in the 1960s, which lines did they
operate on? Which letter markings were on the original roll signs in
the 1960s?
James S. Li
Joe Korner has scanned in a route roll sign from an R27 on his page
(see http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rollsigns/index.html).
The R-27s ushered in BMT letter markings. Along with letters, they included the old Southern Division titles along with the new route designations, which for most Southern Division routes was "Broadway". AFAIK, they first appeared on the Brighton line in daily service. Later, when more cars had arrived on the property, they provided all weekend service on the Southern Division. This included the QB, N, RR, T (Saturdays), and TT (nights and Sundays). With their arrival, all of the BMT oddball units, SIRT cars, and unrebuilt BMT standards were retired.
Yes, the R27s first appeared on the Brighton Local (QT/QB) starting in October or November of 1960, and ran only on that line until it was fully equipped with the new cars about 6 months later. (Except for a few days during a snowstorm that winter when the new cars were temporarily transferred to the RR line, which was totally underground. I guess the problems that R16s had with snow made the TA skittish about their new R27s.)
The next line to receive the new cars was the 4th Ave. local (RR). On weekdays, the R27/R30s generally only appeared on these two lines. As SteveB said, on weekends, they were on all lines in the southern division by mid-1962, and did so until the R32s started arriving in 1964.
-- Ed Sachs
Didn't the Triplexes stay on the Brighton until the R-32s arrived? I will say this much: there is a photo in New York Transit Memories of a Triplex train signed up as a West End #3 on the Astoria branch which is dated July 5, 1963. That would predate the R-32s by more than a year.
Yes, the triplexes were on the line until the R32s arrived. But they didn't run on weekends after the r27s came.
I'll be in Oak Brook, IL tomorrow for a meeting which ends at about 11AM. With the rest of the day free, I thought I'd look into combining two of my favorite pastimes -- riding the rails and watching some baseball.
Can anyone point me in the right direction? I need to go from Oak Brook to Wrigley Field, and then from Wrigley to O'Hare after the game.
Thanks in advance,
Chuck
1) Wrigley Field to O'Hare is easy: paying $1.50 fare, catch any southbound ("To 95th Street") Red Line train from Addison to the SECOND stop in the Washington station. (The first is called Washington & Lake; if you get off there in error, simply wait for the next southbound train and take it to the next stop.) Go DOWN the stairs marked "Blue Line" in the middle of the platform (NOT the stairs UP to the mezzanine) and go through the transfer tunnel to the Washington station on the Blue Line. There, catch any train northwest-bound ("To O'Hare") to the end of the line, O'Hare station.
2) Oakbrook to Wrigley Field is a bit harder to give directions for, since Oakbrook itself has no Metra service, and I don't know what part of Oakbrook you will be in. Metra's UP-West Line goes through the suburbs just north of Oakbrook (Elmhurst and Lombard) and takes one into Northwestern Station, Madison and Canal Streets. Metra's BNSF Line runs through the suburbs due south of Oakbrook (Hinsdale, Clarendon Hills, Westmont) and ends at Union Station, Adams and Canal Streets. Any station you'd board on either line in the named suburbs would be Zone D, which to downtown (Zone A, of course) is $3.15 for a one way ticket. If the station you board at has a ticket agent on duty (not likely), buying the ticket from the agent avoids a $1 fee for paying fares on the train when a ticket agent is available. If there is no agent on duty, there is NO extra fee for buying the ticket on the train. Consult the Metra website at www.metrarail.com for timetables, which are available online for all Metra routes.
Once you get to either Union or Northwestern Station on Metra, catch a 14, 20, 56, or 157 CTA bus eastbound on Washington (the street north of Madison) or a 1, 129, 130, or 151 CTA bus eastbound on Jackson (the street south of Adams) to State Street. Ask for a transfer (and pay $1.80 for the fare and transfer) when you get ON the bus. Once you get to State Street, go down into the Red Line subway and use the transfer to get through the turnstile. Take any northbound ("To Howard") train to Addison, and the ballpark is one block west of the station: you cannot miss it!
From Oak Brook -- There is also Pace bus route #322 which goes from the Oak Brook Mall to the 54/Cermak terminal of the Douglas branch of the Blue line via 22nd St/Cermak Rd.
-- Ed Sachs
[From Oak Brook -- There is also Pace bus route #322 which goes from the Oak Brook Mall to the 54/Cermak terminal of the Douglas branch of the Blue line via 22nd St/Cermak Rd.]
Yes, but the Douglas or 54th/Cermak service runs only on weekdays.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, John and Ed --
Thanks for the info. Now all I need is for my client to cooperate and keep things short and I'll have a great afternoon.
Thanks,
Chuck
One additional thought--the Blue Line/Douglas/54th-Cermak is even slower than the NYC subways--long stretches are limited to 25 mph and some sections are posted with a 6 mph speed limit. A nice ride but very slow. That's a reason it's been on the list of reconstructions even acknowledged by the Illinois Legislature and Governor (whether it gets rebuilt is another question, though).
I just rode it two weeks ago--the ride is fun, but not if you're in a hurry. Unless you have no connections to make anywhere, I wouldn't depend on it.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
What yard does the 42nd St. shuttle operate out of and how do the trains arrive and leave?
The cars are serviced at Livonia Yard at the south end of the 3 line. The cars on Track 1 & 3 come in from the downtown Lex local, while Track 4 comes from the uptown Bway local
Thank you Alex.
Just received a summary of the FFY 2000 - 2004 Transportation Improvement Summary. The following is a short list of Transit improvements proposed for Federal Fundingin FY 2000-2004. The complete document, along with its companion of other NY area transportation projects can be found at www.nymtc.org as a downloadable file under Transportation Improvement Program.
PURCHASE/REBUILD RAPID TRANSIT CARS:
325 NEW A DIVISION CARS 487.500 - 2000-01
680 NEW B DIVISION CARS 1320.000 - 01-02
390 NEW B DIVISION CARS 780.000 - 02-03
REPLACE GAP FILLERS:
Times Sq 3.00 01-02
Union Sq 20.600 99-00
ESCALTOR REPLACEMENT:
8 at Bowling Green
16 at Herald Sq
STATION RECONSTRUCTION:
Lexington Ave (E/F)
Times Sq - phase 2
West 4th St
STATION ACCESSABILITY (ADA):
Pelham Pkway/ WP Road
74th St/Roosevelt Ave Complex
Jay St
96/ Bway
Chambers St/7th Ave
DeKalb Ave
Queens Plz
Myrtle/Wyckoff
Fordham Rd/Jerome
Times Sq
West 4
Columbus Circle complex
Flushing Ave/Jamaica
Prospect Park/ Brighton
179 th St
Junction Blvd
STATION REHABILITATION:
Myrtle Ave/Canarsie
Pelham Pkway/WP Rd
42/8
8th St/Bway
Delancey/Essex complex
Chambers St/ Nassau loop
Prince St
74/ Roosevelt complex
Gun Hill rd /WP Rd
Jay St
City Hall/ Bway
14/ 6 complex
77/Lex
96/Bway
Chambers/ 7 Ave
DeKalb
86/Lex
149/ Grand Concourse complex
14/ Bway
Queens Plz
5th Ave/ Flushing
E. 180
Wyckoff/Myrtle
23/ Bway
116/Lex
Jerome Ave line from 138 to Woodlawn
Gates Ave
Hewes St
Brook St
President St
Ave M
Neck Rd
Flushing Ave
Ave U/ Brighton
NEW PASSENGER TRANSFER:
Bway-Lafayette - Bleeker
Jay St - Lawrence
ELEVATED STRUCTURE REHABILITATION:
Nassau line Reconfiguration
Sheepshead bay - West 8St / Brighton
E. 180 -241 St
Atlantic Ave interlocking
Culver viaduct
Stillwell Terminal viaduct
SIGNALS:
Solid-state interlocking (pilot) - Nassau/ Crosstown
Communications-based signal system - Flushing
Interesting list. Does it say if the station rehab and accessability projects listed according to priority or in no particular order?
Could there be a way to build an transfer between the #3 and L at Livonia Av?
Finally someone that is on my team here, THANK YOU. I have been asking for this for a long time..........
3TM
It seems to make sense to me. I don't know if the issue is one of usage, but it seems that anywhere else in the system where a transfer can be made within two blocks, it exists except here.
Look at the Nassau/Fulton comlex. Though the area is heavily travelled, connections exist along Fulton from Broadway to William Street. Thats about two blocks across.
The only thing between the two lines is a stretch of railway(according to my Hagstrom NYC Atlas-I assume the Linden wye track).
What about the LIRR Bay Ridge Line, it's there too!
The railraod tracks are there as well, but as mentioned earlier, there is an unused mezzanine at the Junius end of the station. It can be easily converted to a passenger transfer. It seems that this transfer would make sense. Case in point: the fire at Sutter a couple of weeks ago. This force L trains to run between Rock Pky and Livonia. From there, passengers needed a block ticket to walk to the 3. This transfer would be something like the Franklin transfer in which the main purpose of that transfer is the GO's on the Brighton and vice versa.....BTW, the railroad is open cut so it is really not a factor..........
3TM
This former mezzanine building, still suspended beneath the elevated structure, is less than fifty feet from the pedestrian ovepass that leads to the Sutter Avenue BMT station. It should be a no-brainer to reactivate this and connect it to the Canarsie line.
Wayne
You mean Livonia station right???????
3TM
YES. SORRY got my stations mixed up. And to think I was just there a couple of weeks ago! Shame on me! :~o
Wayne
You are forgiven, we all make simple mistakes. As long as we have people backing us up....
3TM
Or is it because we are all perceived as being simple ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
3 7th Avenue Express,
L riders respond
How many people do you estimate will use the connection; Julius and Livonia Avenues (3/L)? And the total costs involve?
3 7th Avenue Express,
L riders respond
How many people do you estimate will use the connection; Julius and Livonia Avenues (3/L)? And the total costs involve?
N Broadway Local
Im sure that many people will use the transfer. I remember talking to someone who lived around the New Lots Station. He said that he takes the B6 bus to Rock Pkwy to pick up the L. Im sure he is passing Livonia Av to his destination. Im also sure that he is not doing this alone. Many people will use this transfer...... Remember that Kevin Costner movie..... "If you build it they would come.........."
With the unlimited Metrocard, I already use this to go from Ridgewood to Grand Army Plaza or Flatbush. It took a half hour to get to the Plaza. Otherwise, Ridgewood is not a well connected area. The buses to downtown, or the B6 to the L are pretty long trips, and then there is going all the way through Manhattan. the 3 to the L even seems to be quicker than the L to the A/C to the Franklin Shuttle.
Probably about $200,000-400,000 give or take a few shekels. They need to punch two holes in the platform, install two stairways, renovate and rehabilitate the old mezzanine, build a short pedestrian walkway, and install some fencing etc. There may be some other items in addition to the above.
Wayne
I just don't see the MTA spending all that money for a connection b/t the 3/L. They will be better off moving the station east a couple of blocks, then, what you are proposing wayne? Besides, how many people are expected to use the connection? Remember, the 3 is a local into Manhattan compare to the A; and will require people to transfer three times (L to 3, then 4) just to achieve a time savings. And the 3 doesn't run as often as the A.
Put the 4 out there, and you have some competition!
What would you acheive moving the station a couple of blocks? There is still no transfer. I think that this transfer would improve service on both lines..... I could think of a couple of reasons. BTW, the only way I see the 4 going to New Lots at all times is if they build connection for the Utica Ave line and send the 3 down
to KP.....
4TM
"What would you acheive moving the station a couple of blocks?"
First, #4 line, it will eliminate the inconvenience of having to walk two blocks to make the transfer, which greatly affects people's traveling patterns. I know my aunt rather transfer to trains on the same platform then trains located at distance connections. Even though it might mean a longer trip.
And, the cost of making the transfer possible must be justified. There is no way the MTA is going to pump thousand of dollars just so a few people could use the connection. It just makes since, #4 line.
N Broadway Local
>but it seems that anywhere else in the system where a transfer can be made within two blocks, it
exists except here. <
Actually I can think of another place where there are two stations within 2 blocks that aren't connected... 8st on the N/R and AStor Pl. on the 6... but that's probably because the next (Northbound) stop on both lines is Union Sq. and there is a transfer there...
Mike
Also, Broadway-Nassau on the IND and Prince Street on the BMT, which are less than a block from each other.
I thought it was Bway-Lafayette and Prince St.......
Oops! You're absolutely right.
Here's one for the books: Lafayette Ave. on the A/C and Fulton St. on the G. They're practically side-by-side, yet there is no transfer - most likely because there is an across-the-platform connection at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
What about City Hall on the N/R and Park Place on the 2/3? They're practically across the street from each other.
If City Hall were connected to Park Place on its west side and to Brooklyn Bridge (4/5/6) on its east side, I think it would become a very useful transfer complex, connecting six (!) stations (Chambers J/M/Z, Brooklyn Bridge, City Hall, Park Place, Chambers A/C, WTC C/E), albeit with a bit of walking.
Would it get used? I think so. The N/R connects with the 6 at Canal but requires a transfer to the 4/5 one stop later to go any further south -- now it would connect directly to the 4/5/6. The nearest connections between the N/R and the 2/3 are in Brooklyn and at Times Square. When the J terminates at Chambers, transfers to the 2/3 and A/C have required an annoying one-stop ride on the 4/5 to Fulton -- now it would be a direct transfer.
Wait a second -- there's a problem with this plan: City Hall lower level is in the way. If it could be eliminated, a passageway could be run from Park Place two levels below ground (one level above the 2/3) to the lower level of City Hall; it would continue across City Hall Park and up one flight to the Brooklyn Bridge mezzanine.
Some interesting things I see there:
SIGNALS:
Solid-state interlocking (pilot) - Nassau/ Crosstown
Communications-based signal system - Flushing
I thought the C-B signaling was supposed to go on the Canarsie Line, not Flushing..
And anyone know about this interlocking project? For the Nassau loop, or the "G" line?
seriously is this for real? it seems so overboard. no to say that it wouldnt be great to have this work done but is it feasible? with reagrd to the stations mentioned, does this mean for sure that they will be done? what are the deciding factors, besides money?
BETWEEN PLANNING PERMITS SEQRA AND OTHER ROADBLOCKS WE'LL BE LUCKY IF 1/2 OF THIS LIST COMES TO FRUITION BY 2010
These are PROPOSALS only to try and get money under the Federal TEA-21 program. Anything more at this time would be sheer guesswork.
Interesting List. For "fans" of subways running over the East River Bridges, there are two interesting improvements recommended in the East River Crossing study. The Jay St -- Lawrence transfer means that when the Manhattan Bridge fails, after passengers on 50 trains squeeze onto 25 trains at DeKalb, some of them can get off and transfer to the F at Lawrence. Sheer hell for one stop.
The Bleeker St transfer means that all 6th Ave riders can go up the #6 to East Midtown, a worthwhile improvement.
The rest seems like rebuild-as-is, unless the Nassau Line elevated? rehabilitation means eliminating the curve and running the J/Z straight down Jamaica Ave. But that's OK. With the procedural hell the FEDs put you through, all their money should be used to rebuild-as-is. City and state money should be used for improvements.
I hadn't noticed a problem with the W. 4th St station. Surely there are stronger candidates for reconstruction than it.
It also looks like the B division will get replacement cars, at least for the R30.
Nassau line realignment probably has to do with the Chambers-Canal section. I heard the reason the Queens bound platform at Canal wasn't rebuilt was that both sides will use only the Manhattan bound platform.
If that's the case, I don't know why Nassau was included under "elevated"
I always liked the idea of a transfer at Jay/Lawrence. In case of emergency, transfer options from the Manhattan-bound 'F' are very limited (4th Avenue to 'M/N/R' down a very long, winding staircase); from the Manhattan-bound 'A/C', they're practically non-existent! Other than the Franklin shuttle, once it re-opens (and you would still have to go out out your way and transfer again), if there's a problem before Jay Street, you're stuck! If the problem's after Jay Street, everyone is forced to squeeze onto the already-overcrowded 'F'. Many people wishing to go from one part of Brooklyn served by the 'A/C' to another part served by other lines often have to go all the way to Broadway-Nassau for connections. A new transfer at Jay/Lawrence would open up many new options.
Also much needed is to tie Queensboro and Queens Plazas together. This would open another connection between the '7' and 'E/F/G/R', and make it easier for people coming from Astoria on the 'N' to get to other parts of Queens without having to go under the river twice. Not to mention the convenience when the Manhattan-bound '7' throws everyone off at the Plaza due to construction or equipment trouble, forcing everyone onto the 'N'.
On a personal note, I take the '7' daily from Flushing to Vernon-Jackson, and when the above described disruption takes place, I'm forced to walk a good mile from the Plaza to my office. This is not a pleasant undertaking in the wintertime. It would be nice to be able to switch over to the 'E/F' to 23-Ely or 'G' to Van Alst (at least till the 'G' is permanently cut back). Whenever I ask the Queensboro Plaza booth person for a block transfer, they won't give me one. "Take the 'N' into Manhattan" is invariably the response. No one seems to be able to accept the fact that not everyone in Queens works in Manhattan, and that many people DO work in extreme riverfront Long Island City.
Just venting-
I don't think that having a transfer at Queensboro Plaza with the E,F,G,R Queens Plaza is a good idea.If you go outside the station Queens Plaza you should see the station are far apart.They look close at the subway map but they are really far apart.Also if you would make a transfer you would have to be in the front of the trains at Queens Plaza.
"Also much needed is to tie Queensboro and Queens Plazas together. This would open another connection between the '7'
and 'E/F/G/R', and make it easier for people coming from Astoria on the 'N' to get to other parts of Queens without
having to go under the river twice. Not to mention the convenience when the Manhattan-bound '7' throws everyone off at
the Plaza due to construction or equipment trouble, forcing everyone onto the 'N'."
No one won't benefit from this connection but G train Riders from the N in Astoria. Other than that, it's a waste of money.
A better idea would be a Connection between the E/F/G and the number 7 at Court Square. Any comments on how much a connection like that will cost?
Ditto for that one. Especially if the G is to terminate at Court Sq in the near futre......
3TM
Ditto for that one. Especially if the G is to terminate at Court Sq in the near future......
3TM
why not a connection from Queensboro Plaza(7) to Queens Plaza(E/F/G/R) ?
As I said before it is too far seperated.But in the subway map it is close.
As usual division A is getting less new cars. Division B is in much better shape, the BMT and IND trains ride great and are a hell of alot more comfortable than the IRT ones.
When is the IRT ever going to replace those rickety redbirds? They are on so many lines, and the 7 has the luxury of having all redbirds. Redbirds were nice for their time but it's almost the year 2000 here, I think I could do without poor A/C, lousy bench seating, and the very rough ride the redbirds give.
And the flickering of lights, which is downright annoying.
Also, the station for the 7 at GCT needs improvement badly, as the narrow platform can barely hold rush hour crowds.
I think the plan is to replace all the redbirds up front. The cars for the B division may or may not get ordered; the order for the A division is a done deal. After the R142s come in, the entire A division fleet will be post-1980. Aside from a small number of R68s, the entire B division fleet will be pre-1975. I expect the B division to AVERAGE 40 years old at some point before a large number of new trains starts to come it. Better keep the maintenance up.
This Rail Historian wants you to know that a silver engraved master controller handle was given to John B. McClennan, the Mayor of the City of New York, from August Belment for operating the first IRT subway train out of City Hall station on October 27,1904 at 2:34pm.
This Rail Historian has seen this controller handle at the New York Historical Society in 1979. Anyone have a photograph of it?
What were the car numbers of the first train?
Have a photo in a book where you can see the controller handle
The first car in the inaugural train was 3340 or 3341, either the August Belmont or John Mcdonald. Mayor GEORGE McClellan had to enter from the rear vestibule in order to get inside the motorman's cab. He had so much fun running that train, he didn't give up the controls until they got to 103rd St.
Went out to lunch today, and went down to Canal St to look for some miscellaneous electrical equipment. Took the B'way line down and back.
First, the Defect Report. R46 #6200 has a broken speedometer. Reads 0 at all times (or at least for my 3 station trip)
Secondly, I coincedentally ended up on the same car on the way back Northbound. Trivia question (for the group) -- how long was I at lunch?
1 hour, 50 min. give or take 10 min.
Thanks for the info. 6200 is one of many cars with a defective sensor cable which is currently a 'No Stock' item. (R-32s have Doplar Radar speedometers and do not have the same problem). The cables were purchased on a priority basis from the manufacturer in Racine, Wi. and several units were shipped last week. Car #6200 will be returned to perfect health on its' next inspection.
as to your question I assume that 6200 was on the R line going south. based on the running time from Canal St. to 95th St, lay-over time and the trip back, I'd say you were at lunch WAY TOO LONG :)
unless you are the boss.
No stock? Reminds me of the last coversation I had with my former supervisor at TA -- Materiel. When I was there, the motto was "what you want when you want it." We managed to do the TA's first inventory, and break the culture of "hide stuff off the books and hoard it" except in Track and Structures, where they've hidden away enough stuff to last 100 years. Like squirrels, they lose some of the stuff they bury.
Anyway, in the recession I was told the new motto was "would the world come to an end if we don't buy it." I don't know how they avoided deferred maintenance with no stock.
Have they progressed to "just in time" delivery yet? Some organizations don't seem to have the culture to handle it, but for those that can it is both cost effective and works very well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SMS was supposed to make JIT possible in the TA. However, because of the intangibles and long lead times for many subway car parts, JIT just doesn't work.
Transit purchasing is bizzare. There are so few rail systems out there, and so few rail system builders, that you are basically dealing monopoly to monopoly. Buses are a little better, but not much -- we were pretty much dealing with GM, and they were BAAAD. No wonder they are only worth eight times earnings.
[However, because of the intangibles and long lead times for many
subway car parts, JIT just doesn't work.]
One major drawback of just-in-time delivery is that even brief shipment delays can be quite disruptive. A strike, bad weather, or other things can lead to shortages in very short order. JIT has many advantages over traditional inventory methods, of course, and in some cases they will outweigh this drawback. But it really isn't possible to conclude that JIT is superior in all circumstances.
The Rail Historian says that Fiorello LaGuardia operated the first train from Union Tpke-Kew Gardens to 169th Street on April 24, 1937. His dress was a typical motormans's stripped uniform with cap.
[ The Rail Historian says that Fiorello LaGuardia operated the first
train from Union Tpke-Kew Gardens to 169th Street on April 24, 1937.
His dress was a typical motormans's stripped uniform with cap. ]
You forgot that those uniforms were outlawed by Guiliani. He has a thing against strippers.
The Rail Historian meant striped and not stripped. Rudy couldn't operated train to safe his life however, I'll bet you that Ed Koch could.
Was Koch a railroad fan? Saw him in a newspaper article a few years ago riding in the front of a J train crossing the WIlliamburg.
As mayor, Ed Kock realized the value of the subay system to the life line of the city but he was no friend of the system. When Ruth (open baby-stroller) Messenger fought the TA over some safety vs femenist issues, Koh straddled the fence. Even when he represented the 19th CD (I believe) he gave transit little support. However, as with most revisionist democrats, he'd likely tell a different story today. Especially since he could take credit for the coincidental turn-around in the system.
I just found that I mis-spelled His Honor's name not once but twice. Both mis-spellings were totally unintentional.
Steve, I know it was unintentional, but "Doplar" is also misspelled. The correct spelling is "Doppler," the frequency shift phenomenon discovered by the Austrian physicist Christian Johann Doppler (1803–53) in 1842.
I'll bet he had no idea his discovery would be used to measure tornadic winds as well as calculate the speed of Hippo-68s!
And that's transit and weather together...
I thought the first one was pretty humorous, although that does not in any way imply a negative opinion of him.
Stripped was even better in the previous post.
Hey, Rudy running a slant 40 on CPW would probably be one of the fastest things going -- full throttle and on the horn all the way and none of those damn R-44s better get in the way or else...
Believe me, I wouldn't mind seeing a few slant R-40s on the A again. When they were there in the late 70s, it seemed as if they could actually outrun the R-10s, which was no easy task.
You couldn't count on 0both hands, the number of NY Pols. who have operated NYC Subway trains. However, if you are a true 'rail historian' then you can should have no problem with these 3 simple questions.
1) Who was the first NY Mayor to operate a NYC Subway train?
2) Who was the first NY Mayor to actually was a salaried motorman first? Why was he fired?
3) Which mayor was the first to operate a train on the SIRR?
Bonus Question; Why do you make all your posts in the 3rd person?
Ill give it a shot
#1 Mayor McClellan in 1904 opening of Contract One Line
#2 Mayor "Iron Mike" Hylan enginner on Steam Elevated lines of the BRT. Fired due to reckless operation, 1915 I think
#3 No idea
Steve L
The questions were for the 'historian' but as long as you opened the door:
1) is absolutely correct.
2) Reckless operation - he tried to run down his supervisor with his train. He later had the IND built specifically to run the BTR out of business. That's why so many IND/BMT lines are built seemingly in competition.
3) John V Lindsay when the first R-44s were delivered to the SIRR
Bonus Question: Only he knows
Reckless operation - he tried to run down his supervisor with his train
I've interpreted the reason Hylan was fired (from Cudahy, Fischler, ERA bulletins) that it wasn't intentional - legend says he was either not paying attention or reading one of his law books while operating the train. He was studying to take the bar exam while employed as a BRT motorman.
--Mark
In the A & E special "Empire Beneath the Streets", it was said that it was a deliberate act. I suppose that it may be urban folklore but lately I am beginning to appreciate the feeling.
[ Hylan intentionally tried to run down a supervisor ]
Sometimes you need to use simple common sense when evaluating a story. There is no indication that Hylan was embittered towardthe BRT before his firing, so would havethe desire to run anyone down. Second, he was close to his law degree at the time of the incident. Conviction for what could at least be considered manslaughter would have ended his law career before it got off the ground.
The most colorful story is that he was studing his law books at the same time he was operating his locomotive. I doubt this, although Hylan himself implied that maybe he was thinking a little too much about his upcoming exams instead of the railroad.
Actually Hylan's brief mention of the incident is (IMHO) worse than some others, when you think about it. He implied that the supervisor was an old fellow, and not too quick--i.e., it was somehow the supervisor's fault.
The reason I found this unflattering to Hylan is that it sounds like he's saying that he didn't slack his speed because he expected the supervisor to move faster--this is like saying "I hit the old lady at the intersection because I though she could move faster." That's practically reckless endangerment.
1) McClellan for the first IRT train. And as is well known, it was not a ceremonial photo-op, he ran it for quite some distance, to the considerable discomfort of IRT officials.
2) John Hylan, mayor 1918-1925. I have to quibble with "motorman," he was a locomotive engineer for the BRT. He was fired because he almost hit a company official, allegedly because he wasn't paying attention to his work.
3) I should know this but don't. I'll take a wild guess at Lindsay.
This Rail Historian suggests that New York City Transit place the G Trailer into revenue service on the Flushing Line between Willets Points to Queensboro Plaza Stations. It would run in a consist of the BU cars. Think of the heads that it will turn to look at it.
Why would you want to chance something hasppening to the oldest piece of remaning elevated equipment? I rode G numerous times at Branford with #1227, and thought that even then.
Yes, it would make quite a display, marker lights chopped off
by low tunnel clearances, and gapped out across the plant
at Willets Point.
Heads might turn to look at it but that's only because they're upset it didn't stop to pick them up. Having been on numerous trips with the D-Types & Low-V's, the "why isn't the train letting us on" reaction is more common than "wow, look at that old train". Of course, the wags shouting out the window that we've been riding around for 40 years doesn't help the image :-)
Is the MTA selling baseball cards here? Why the hell do they have to individually wrap each Metrocard? It's a waste of plastic and provides more litter to our city(especially in the subways!!!!!) Hey MTA-----Use the $$$$ to pkg these cards and use it more wisely.
Keep the wrapping. How do I know that the unwrapped card that I'm buying at a newsstand hasn't been used?
Don't buy it at a newsstand then. Don't be lazy, if you're gonna be riding the subway, buy your Metrocard there. If you're riding the bus, buy it at a subway station as well............
What if you live on Staten Island? What if you have a disability that
prevents you from entering a subway station?
The $4 day pass only comes from sources outside the system. Keep the wrappers. It's a guaruntee when you buy the card off-system. Also, what of bus customers who never see the inside of a subway station, or Steten Island, where there is but one place to purchase or refill a MetroCard, St. George?
-Hank
Yeah, that's a good idea. Make the system much less convenient to use (for some people) and eliminate the Fun Pass (which is only sold outside of subway stations) for the sake of -- well -- nothing whatsoever.
The Fun Pass should be sold in subway stations. That's a very stupid idea for the MTA to sell it outside of subway stations. I'm sure causes chaos for many tourists and for BrooklynBob cause BrooklynBob has a hard time looking for a Funpass when I have visitors from out of town to get one for.
Do away with the wrappers. It causes too much litter from stupid people who don't know what a garbage can is.
And if you're handicapped----then have someone purchase a MetroCard for you at a subway station if the MTA is smart enough to do away with the outside Metrocard vending.
PS----how do those newsstand people make their $$$ from selling MetroCards? Doesn't the MTA lose $$$$ by doing this?
I don't think they'd look at it as a loss. The stores pay a discount rate for the cards, and the MTA pockets the cas immediately. It's already earning intrest, in that case, until it is spent ('the float') The store owner sells it at face value, and makes himself a small profit.
It makes the card more convienient for the users, who would otherwise need to stand on long lines to buy a card at a booth; it draws customers into the store, where they may get to the counter, buy their card, and see a Slim Jim. "OOOOooo, SLIM JIM and buy one. Thus, the store owner has made his intended sale, and the all-important 'impulse buy'
-Hank
The wrappers are definitely needed when Metrocards are sold away from subway stations. Otherwise there would be no way to tell if the card really had the value on it that it was supposed to. They could make the wrappers easier to open, though.
For cards sold in subway stations, there is a reader at the booth to verify the balance. However, since all the cards look alike, the clerk could easily get confused if the pre-encoded cards weren't identified by wrappers. So I guess the wrappers are needed even there.
I finally bought a "fun pass" the other day, at a check-cashing store. The store was near a bus stop and had a "Fun Pass Sold Here" sign in the window. There are a lot of these stores around these days, many near subway stations.
As has been talked around here, many folks can't get to a subway station for physical or travel habits, so Newstands and on-line means are important to them (e.g. CitySearch). Express bus customers for many years have valued their ability to call up the "private" operator and order tickets (now $30 or $120 MCs ... plug plug).
I too think wrappers are important as they provide peace of mind for the customer and prevent the "seller" from getting sticky fingers. The harder you make it for staff to steal the more less likely they will.
The value MetroCards that I gave my Farebox repair staff say "For Test Only - No Free Access". They're also a "white" color. I've said to them that I don't worry about miss-use of the card because if I ever get a call from the police that you got caught trying to use it, I'ld reply "good lock 'em up & throw the key away". Station Agents used to be more liberal about letting me walk up to a booth to re-fill the cards, but now they won't do it even if you're a TA employee (I used to walk up in uniform & hand them a business card, now I buy new cards from the encoding shop ... we have an account their).
Mr t__:^)
Here we go again...
Someone here reported a time back that our famous(or infamous) New Tech Train was out of service in the Bronx. I spotted the train going southbound passing throug Jackson Av on the 2/5, destination unknown. I wonder what the mechanics are going to do this time to this poor thing???
Also, anybody notice anything peculiar yesterday? Mainline R36s were running on the 5 for one trip, I'd guess to cover a gap in service. This is the advantage to having your window next to the el... You can see what's going on. I have seen numerous odd sights over the years.
-Stef
What is the difference between machancial control engines and electronic control engines? Besides
computers how do the machancial controls work? Belts and pulleys?
Steve could fill you in better on this - but, the mechanical ones not only have camshaft driven contactors on them (Hey - how about a pic of these on subtalk? I've only once seen one (MN open house), and I'm sure many people would love to see one too Maybe a cutaway engineering diagram too? :)
They also have a "motor" to drive the camshaft, and the control logic - which could be realys, or a computer, or circuit boards. The "motor" is either an electric, or a pneumatic - air operated. GE's PC, PCM, and maybe others, and lots of Westinghouse stuff uses an air engine. The MCM, SCM, and CCM use electric motors. The motor drives the camshaft either directly, or via a gear reduction - I doubt belts were ever used here.
There is also something called "Unit Switch" control - Instead of a camshaft, the contactors are driven by air. Sometimes (PRR MP-54s), there is an air driven "sequence drum", but others handle all the switch logic by "interlocks" on each contactor. Such control was used in the pre war R-series cars, and on the old LIRR MUs.
Unit Switch, and any air operated camshaft controller, or course, won't go without a supply of air! With Unit Switch, loss of air will cause the contactors to simply drop out - I'm not sure if the camshaft types will get stuck with the power on or not...
[ There is also something called "Unit Switch" control - Instead of a
camshaft, the contactors are driven by air. Sometimes (PRR MP-54s),
there is an air driven "sequence drum", but others handle all the
switch logic by "interlocks" on each contactor. Such control was used
in the pre war R-series cars, and on the old LIRR MUs. ]
The Pre-war R series cars (R1-R9) used PC control, and not unit switch groups.
Unit switch groups were used on BRT gate cars, though. I'm not sure if they all used the same thing, but most of them used AB "turret" groups, where the contactors are oriented in a circle.
The R cars at seashore have Unit Switch on them - I know because they' have Westinghouse equipment - and I believe they weren't doing camshafts at that point in time. It certainly wasn't PC control, since that's a GE thing. Some cars might have had PC on them - I'm pretty certain a numbver of series were split between Westinghouse and GE (as was the GG-1, but not the PRR MUsk, which were all Westinghouse)
Actually, Steve, most of the R1-9 orders were
split between GE and Westinghouse. The latter are type ABF
unit switch control. Branford's R-9 is GE PC-15, but the
two at Seashore are WH. Some ABs and Ds also had similar gear.
There was one small group of IRT cars with WH unit switch, the
rest were all GE Type M or PC-10.
BU cars had either the original Westinghouse notching-head
Sprague-style control, turrets, or 251-I-3 inline unit
switch groups. The latter were used on the 1400s and therefore
on the Qs.
Unit Switch, and any air operated camshaft controller, or course, won't go without a supply of air!
With Unit Switch, loss of air will cause the contactors to simply drop out - I'm not sure if the
camshaft types will get stuck with the power on or not
Loss of air on a PC control would cause the drum to stick in
whatever position it was in, but the line switch would dropaway
and cut off power.
The details are too complex to explain here, but both control systems are explained in depth on Piers Connor's excellent web page.
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/
CH.
First off, let me commend Bill Palter on the shots his dad took of the el. They were excellent and they really told the story about a once great elevated line.
Next, I want to mention something that I saw, in one of Bill's pictures that I decided to check out. Does anyone know out here that there is a remnant of the 3rd Av El locted on 161 St at 3rd Av? Do you know what it is? The Manhattan Railway's Substation #8 is still here and it has been 26 years since the el was demolished! I have no idea what the building is being used for, if any. The Manhattan Railway name still adorns this once great building. This a building that should receive landmark status if it hasn't already. After all, it is what remains of the el, other than the abandoned trackway at Gun Hill Rd, the lower level.
I wouldn't mind putting a Museum in this building, paying hommage to a once great el. The substation can tell the story of how rapid transit helped to develop the Bronx as well as other parts of NYC.
The el - was it a nuisance or a necessity?
Any thoughts?
-Stef
I think it could have been spared. It certainly could carry more passengers than today's BX-55 bus. IIRC, the MTA had planned to buy all new, lighter subway cars for both this line and the Myrtle Ave el. That certainly would have spruced up that line. If you take a look at the "new" Franklin Ave. Shuttle you can only wonder what the #8 line could be today had some money been sunk into improving and upgrading it.
Unfortunately, the Third Ave. el died during the height of the "We're really gonna build the Second Ave. line this time" period of optimism. If the line could have held out for two more years, the city would have hit its financial crisis when the Second Ave. line died, and the el might have gotten a reprieve.
Stef,
Did you know that when the el in the Bronx was shut down, the part from 161 to Gun Hill rd. was torn down, but the part from 149 to 161 stodd till about 1978? The reason: the TA needed that substation for power for the 2/5 lines! Check it out that why it stood so long, and is the same reason that the "old" Myrtle El is still standing from Bushwick to Lewis, although that substaion at Lewis is no longer used. Don' worry, there are nocurrent plans to tear down that el.(too short a strecth and no one complains)
As an added tidbit, check out the towere that still stands at Jamaica and 165 st. The Jamaica el at that locqtion was torn down over 20 years ago, but the tower still stands!
Mike H
Does any know if the entrance stairways remain for the 138th St Station. They were massive concrete entrances that were probably built when the structure was double-decked. Thos entrances were on the PROW portion of the original suburban line.
Ok... Let's see here. First off, thanks for the info. You're telling me stuff that I haven't heard of before. I have a few thoughts on my mind. I didn't know that the el substation was being used for that purpose, so this leads me to believe that the 2/5 substation at St Ann's Av (at Westchester) was built as a replacement for Substation 8. So what were they doing? They had the powerlines along the sides of the structure? It doesn't even meet the West Farms El structure at any location, not unless the lines went into the ground. Gee, I wonder if the 3rd Rail was still electrified here!?! They still had signals up, right? That's great, the el became a historical landmark (not!) as no trains passed on it. For me, it's an eerie sight seeing an el that doesn't rumble with the noise of Forneys, Qs, Lo-Vs, and others that ran over the years.
As for the Myrtle Av El, I thought the reason for keeping that section of el up was for the purpose of operating the tower from this location. The tower doesn't operate anymore, so why keep the structure up? I like the els, but if nothing's running on it, then why bother to keep it up? It's unnecessary. Speaking of the BMT Eastern Division, I'll be checking into what's left of the Jamaica Av El at 165th St. Did you say the tower is still standing? That's odd.
As a transit advocate, I would have said leave the el, because there wasn't anything wrong with it. Anyone who rides the Bx55 will notice that the buses are packed most of the time which makes me think that the patronage warrants the return of some kind of rapid transit along 3rd Av. I believe, but I can't recall that the el was supposed to be tied into the Second Av Subway, which was one of the city's many plans from back in the 1930s. The structure could have been rebuilt only if the city was willing to spend money on it. At least in part, the Dual Contracts structure could have remained and tied into the subway in the Fordham Road area. After all, the Broadway Bklyn El on Fulton St still stands after so many years, going from steam to bonafide R42s. An 1885 Brooklyn Elevated RR structure still stands, but no one had tolerance for an 1886 Suburban Elevated structure.
Gosh, I wish my mom and dad could have showed me to the 3rd Av El, even if there wasn't anything actually on it (Talk about being a 70's baby!).
-Stef
Stef,
It's true, the Jamaica tower stands; just look up at the southeast corner of 165 and Jamaica; that's it!
Yea, it's true for the Myrtle el. if you can recall; the old substation used to have cables running to the el, which I guess also ran into the Bway el.If all they neede was the tower, they could have left only the structure above the Bway el.
Glad to help, hope someone can help me with info on the Polo Grounds shuttle remnants.
MIke H
I don't know too much about what's left of the Polo Grounds Shuttle, but Joe Brennan has a guide about abandoned or unused subway/el routes as is their stations, and some commuter rail stuff. There's a link to Brennan's page somwhere on this site.
What about the Polo Grounds shuttle? Well the structure which connects into the Lex Av Subway still exists from ironically a SUBSTATION at 162th St and River Av. A set of stairs which leads down from the 155th St Bridge was said to be a part of the 9th Av El. Question: Was the 155th St Bridge apart of what the 9th Av El used to get to the Bronx? The bridge wasn't always open to vehicular traffic was it? The only other thing that I might want to mention is that remains of the 9th Av El supposedly exist between two buildings I believe it's supposed to be a tunnel?
-Stef
The 9 Avenue El used the "Putnam Bridge" to cross the Harlem River. This bridge was built by the New York City and Northern Railroad and opened on May 1,1881 and lasted until january 6,1916. The bridge was then leased to the IRT for 999 years. IRT service lasted from january 6,1918 until june 15,1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for that info, Larry. What I was wondering is if that's the same bridge still in existence at the present time being used by vehicular traffic. Brennan's guide to abandoned and disused stations seems to point to a set of stairways, that lead from the 155th St Bridge down to street level, and are said to have been a part of the el. Any thoughts?
-Stef
The city was very pessimistic about the future of the Bronx in the 1970s. There was even talk of "closing off" certain areas and removing the remaining residents so that all services could be shut down. (I believe the official term was "planned shrinkage.") Ridership from the Bronx was dropping, and there was no expectation that it would ever come back.
This is foolish thinking on the part of the city. Because of their mistakes, urbanites like myself had to suffer the indignity of being in an area now classified as a ghetto.
It's hard to imagine that the South Bronx had so much so many years ago, and then went downward. What gives?
One thing's for certain: slowly but surely, the South Bronx is being revitalized.
-Stef
I was living in the Bronx myself during that period; I remember riding the 3rd Avenue el on its last day. The city and state governments were paralyzed when facing urban problems. Even the Federal government, during the Nixon-Ford-Carter years, was in disarray with the aftermath of Vietnam, Watergate, and the oil embargoes. I don't think politics has really recovered from that time.
The MTA itself fell into a defeatist attitude along with the rest of the city government.
What killed the 3rd Avenue el was the elimation of its route in Manhattan. Why couldn't the city understand that before it demolition that route? And, couldn't this route have been spared for a second Avenue subway connection?
I don't think so. The G doesn't go into Manhattan and still runs. The Franklin Ave Shuttle hasn't gone to Manhattain since 1920 and it was recently rebuilt. The only thing that killed the the 3rd Ave. el was a city who didn't care about mass transit.
Wouldn't the Bronx be better off today had the line been completely rebuilt and renovated similar to what was done to the the Franklin Ave. shuttle?
"Wouldn't the Bronx be better off today had the line been completely rebuilt and renovated similar to what was done to the
the Franklin Ave. shuttle?"
Your asking the wrong person, Chris.
Can anyone tell me how the neighborhood being service by the el looked from the time it was built until the time it was demolished? And did it look like a ghost town as it does today?
3rd Ave was basically a commercial street and it declined when el service terminated. Just like Myrtle Ave. in '69 and Jamaica Ave. in '77
I think that was the idea. Connect the 2nd Av Subway to the outer portion of the 3rd Av El and voila, you have another hostile takeover of a once glorious el route. Recall that the Fulton St El's outer end was tied into the IND subway at 80th Street in Queens. What do I mean by hostile? The IND took control of former BMT routes, built under them in some cases, and knocked down the IRT Manhattan Elevated System (6th Av El is a perfect example). Competition was the key... Put the BMT and IRT out the door and let the IND reap the benefits.
But anyway, as I was saying, if the 3rd Av El had been tied into the Second Av Subway, that means the el would have been converted to IND specs as that had been the plan for the subway. Yeah, Gun Hill would have been IND on the lower level, IRT on the upper. Wouldn't that have been strange? Then again, you have to wonder if the other IRT lines such as Jerome Av and Pelham Lines would have been converted to IND specs. Just a thought!
-Stef
I doubt the 3rd Ave el. was strong enough to handle 600 ft subway trains. In fact, it had problems with ordinary R12 cars, as speed limits were imposed on particularly weakly supported areas, I think. Any rebuild to meet these standards would have been rendered as a waste of money, and a subway would have been proposed to replace it.
Anything's possible - remember that Bway Bklyn El had to be rebuilt to accomodate the AB Standards which were large for their time. Rebuilding of the 3rd Av El didn't have to be out of the question. The portion above Fordham Rd certainly could have been retained (Dual Contracts Portion).
-Stef
Did the third avenue el come first (1,2,3,4,5,6,B,C,D)? If so, did it use IRT standard cars or IND/BMT standard cars? If IND/BMT standard cars were used, why the switch?
Thank you for your responses.
This Rail Historian has the following facts. The 3rd Avenue EL used IRT cars like, gate car, the Composites, MUDC's, Lo-V's, Worlds Fair Steinways, R12 and some others. It was opened in Suburban line of the 3rd Avenue EL in Manhatten I believe in 1886. Its original terminal was Bronx Park. The line closed on April 28, 1973 and yours truly roe the line on the last day and Lo-V's the following day on a ERA sponsored fan trip.
So, they was a third Avenue el before a 2, 4, 5, and 6?
Every line in the Bronx currently in function was opened in the 20th Century. The Third Avenue El was not.
Part of it was. I think the part below Tremont Ave was 19th century costruction. However, the part that was above Bedford Park Blvd was built at the same time as the White Plains Rd. line.
The part above what was the Fordham Road/190th Street station was built in the late 1910s and opened in 1920. I rode that line twice and did notice the differences in the station architecture, i.e. the differences between, say, Claremont Parkway and 210th Street-Williamsbridge. The 3rd Avenue Contract III stations had the same platform sheds and lights found on the Jamaica and Liberty Avenue Els.
Wayne
What did El stations look like before their MTA windscreen uglification? When will the TA have a el station renaissance like they did with the subway?
The IRT el stations built in the 1917-1920 period had windscreens made of wooden panels with windows in the top half. I think these had six panes of glass per panel. I'm fairly sure these windows couldn't be opened. During the mid-1960s the original walls were replaced with the present metal windscreens.
The older 3rd Avenue stations (below Fordham Road) generally didn't have windscreens. The portion of the stations beneath the canopies had four or five foot fences but were otherwise left open. The TA (and later the MTA) didn't make the kinds of renovations made to newer el stations. During the period from 1955 to 1973 the line was generally neglected.
You are a very well informed rail historian. Mind telling me the name of the signal maintainer who cut the signal bonds after the last train passed the Clairemont Station. Bet you don't know the engine number of the work train involved in the rail scrap removal. Please tell me the current owner of the pot belly stove that was at Bedford Park. I want to be a well informed rail historian such as yourself. By the way one of the cars in the last R-12 train also worked the last train of the Bowling Green Shuttle. What was it Mr Rail Historian?
Actually, Histerical, you've inadvertently (?) brought up a good point: when is trivia too obscure to be honest?
I know some people who have very obscure but accurate details that probably noone could answer. For example, I know Arthur Lonto used to keep a notebook detailing every ride he ever took, even just to go into the City for a shopping trip. He noted his route, car numbers, any other pertinent details.
So he could well ask "was the northbound D train on time at 34th-6th on November 12, 1954. If it was not. how late or early was it, and what was the number of the lead car?"
I have a number of pieces of information I would be surprised if more than one or two other people know, such as: "What first event occured on the Brighton Beach Line on August 26, 1878."
An educated guess would be that the Brighton was extended from Willink (Prospect Park) to Bedford Station (Atlantic Avenue).
But it would be wrong.
I could use the technique often used on "Jeopardy" of giving a big hint by asking "What unfortunate first event occured ..."
On that date, the Brighton suffered its first fatality.
My point is that if you have an interesting fact, it's not really fair to ask it as a question unless a fairly knowledgeable person could at least have a shot at guessing it.
Just my thought...
Paul: Since the Brighton Line openned for service on July 2,1878 and was extended to Bedford Station on August 19 of that year I would venture to say it had something to do with hauling the Brighton Beach Hotel about 200 yards inland. (The sea came into the lobby of the hotel at high tide.)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: If you mean what was the cause of the fatality, it was carelessness. The circumstances of the accident were probably as old as railroading and still happens today.
The unfortunate soul crossed the two-track right-of-way immediately after the passage of a train. He was struck and killed by a train heading in the opposite direction. His name was Michael Shaughnessey, a section hand (employee).
The Hotel Brighton was hauled back ten years later, in 1888, after the shoreline was cut back by the Blizzard of '88.
Yeah, those were IRT type cars (actually they were smaller as the IRT cars were 51' long while Manhattan El cars were anywhere from 44' to 48'. The el was up and running years before the subway. To be exact, 1878 was the opening of the el from South Ferry to the old Grand Central Depot.
-Stef
Stef,
Did you know that when the el in the Bronx was shut down, the part from 161 to Gun Hill rd. was torn down, but the part from 149 to 161 stood till about 1978? The reason: the TA needed that substation for power for the 2/5 lines! Check it out, that's why it stood so long, and is the same reason that the "old" Myrtle El is still standing from Bushwick to Lewis, although that substaion at Lewis is no longer used. Don' worry, there are no current plans to tear down that el.(too short a stretch, and no one complains)
As an added tidbit, check out the tower that still stands at Jamaica and 165 st. The Jamaica el at that location was torn down over 20 years ago, but the tower still stands!
Mike H
Speaking of 3rd Ave, I remember watching the 1981 movie "Fort Apache-The Bronx" a few years back on TV. Anyway there was a scene in the first part of the movie when Paul Newman and Ken Wahl were chasing a purse snatcher down 3rd Avenue. In the background, I noticed in that scene that although the El had been gone for almost 5-6 years, the city still hadn't gotten around to replacing the low-clearance streetlamps left over from when the el was still in place overhead. At about 10-15' in height they looked awfully strange when situated next to regular height ( approx. 20-25') traffic signal masts at an intersection.
The same thing happened on Jamaica Ave after the 121-Queens Blvd leg of the Jamaica El was dismantled in the late 80s. Pretty strange.
I will like to see a new elevated structure on 3rd Avenue of 21 century standards. However, one question: How much community opposition is expected compare to favoriting this new line. As you are not aware of, third avenue pretty much consist of warehouses.
This new el will terminate at Fordam Road/Grand Concourse or 138th Street 3rd Avenue (duplicating the older route - except connecting the B/D at Concourse). Connections with the B/D at Grand Concourse, 2/5 at 149th Street/3rd Avenue and 6 at 138th Street/3rd Avenue will be accomplished.
At a later date, I propose the D extended to White Plains Road (connecting 2/5 lines), and the building of the 2nd Avenue subway which the 3rd Avenue el will be connected to.
Moreover, use of the old "NY/Boston Railroad/Amtrak rail tracks to Co-op City and Dyre Avenue; replacing the 5. Please walk over the triborough bridge to see the layout.
6 to Co-op City is also proposed in my plans.
I would rather have a Third Avenue Subway there, subways are much better than els.
Even 21 century El like the ones in Washington DC (Metro).
Yes, even those. There not 21st century els. NOTHING is 21st century, at least not for another 17 months.
I don't see why they couldn't bring it back. I think the community was expecting a replacement subway, that never came so the passengers are flocking to the BX55 articulated buses.
What did you have in mind for an elevated stucture? The box girder type (as Wayne Mr. Slant R40 describes it) seems to be the traditional way of putting up els. They're cheaper than building the subways. Should it matter if the TA builds an el or a subway? What's better? Building els in the outer boroughs are ok, but the city won't let you build one in Manhattan.
You said 3rd Av consisted of warehouses... During what time was that? I've been on 3rd Av numerous times and see large amounts of housing.
-Stef
A concrete viaduct down the middle of 3rd Ave might be possible, but NIMBY would kill it, as it will all other above-ground rail projects.
Chris,
"A concrete viaduct down the middle of 3rd Ave might be possible, but NIMBY would kill it, as it will all other
above-ground rail projects."
3rd Avenue is not as residential as Grand Concourse and Jerome Avenue. It is still possible to build a new el line. However, not until they start building the 2nd Avenue Subway first (which it would connect to it). Remember, elimation of the Manhattan route was responsible for it demise.
There will never be a political situation friendly to a new el construction, as the Port Authority's Air Train problems with NIMBY'ism has proven.
And it wasn't the elimination of service to Manhattan that killed the 3rd Ave. el in The Bronx. It survived for 18 years after that. It was the MTA's desire to cut costs and the community's pressure to remove the "unsuightly" el and replace it with a subway.
"The box girder type (as Wayne Mr. Slant R40 describes it) seems to
be the traditional way of putting up els."
Nineteen Century Structures? NO! They should replace all of those box girder type structures (as you describe it) with new elevated technology (similar to Washington D.C. Metro).
"Should it matter if the TA builds an el
or a subway? What's better?"
Yes it should, Stef. Elevator lines are great and inexpensive and suggest the MTA to build one on 3rd Avenue. It should connect the Metro North and D and Fordham Road.
In my 2Av plans, I do have a 3Av ELEVATED line connecting to the 2 Av line via the J and Z lines..................
3TM
J, M, Z? They can't run BMT trains in the Bronx. Only the IND and IRT are allow in the Bronx.
Uh, what are you talking about? Let's be careful how we phrase things so as not to be spreading any misinformation here.
The BMT never built any lines to the Bronx that's true but that has nothing to do with possible future routes that might get built/created.
Look at the "D" train, that's certainly part BMT. Who knows maybe someday (not likely but for example) there will be a Concourse/Central Park West/6th Ave/Chrystie St./Broadway El route.
First of all, It is just a fantasy line that I MADE UP so this is not true. Second of all, what type of law is there that says that BMT cannot enter the Bronx? There might not be no BMT lines in the Bronx but anything is possible. BMT means Brooklyn-Manhattan Division but the J,M,N,R, and Z goes to Queens right???????
3TM
What kind of law is there that says that the BMT means anything at all? In addition, the Q is BMT and goes to Queens and the B, D and F run over BMT trackage and then go to the Bronx or Queens (BRONX)
Well that is my point. BMT does not mean anything anymore. It is now part of the B division. BTW, that is what BMT stand for....... THERE IS NO LAW STATING THAT. IT IS JUST AN ABBREVIATION..............
3TM
Except for the charter of the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation, which has no binding anymore as that corporation was dissolved in 1942.
Then, what's with the BMT signs?
These were the names of the old divisions of the pre TA.
IRT: Interborough Rapid Transit
BMT: Brooklyn-Manhattan Transportation(?)
IND: Independent Lines(?)
3TM
IRT: Interborough Rapid Transit Company
BMT: Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation
IND: Independent City-owned Rapid Transit Railroad (This is what I heard, and it rhymes too!)
... and they're still used, even by NYC Transit, which tried to eradicate these terms from memory.
At the front or rear of every underground subway platform is a red sign indicating to emergency personnel where you are, what the track numbers are, the direction of train travel, where the next emergency exits are and what DIVISION of the transit system you're in. The divisions are listed as IRT, BMT and IND.
--Mark
Here are my ideas for Second Avenue Subway Stations, each design would come from a unique period in Station Design History, with some embellishment.
South Street - Ferry Terminal
This station boasts an extra wide island platform, with provisions for southward extension to Staten Island. It's name is designed to prevent confusion with the BMT and IRT stations. The station is designed with a rib vault like a Gothic cathedral, hanging from the points are chandeliers that don't attempt to emulate their rich crystal cousins, but are designed to take in the "feel" of the subway. The station should borrow design elements from City Hall, while not attempting to make copies. City Hall should never be copied! Due to the great expense of this station's amenities, including the replica of Beach's fountain (see FAQ), anyone attempting to vandalize or deface this station in anyway will be sentenced to life. Those who carry through with the defacing will be sentenced to death.
Wall-Fulton Streets
Designed to look like an IND Station, it brings the IND to two streets that were never namesakes to the IND. Because the line will lack express tracks (too expensive, not much time savings, too many inconviencied, express already on Lex, etc.) the color will be that of the line on the map.
Worth Street - Chatham Square
The name is deliberately designed to pay to homage to a fallen post on the first IRT. The "logo" of the station will be a large junction of elevated trains running cars that look like Low-Vs. It will suggest to the passenger that the station is older, for when there were many els there, adding to the station's "feel."
Grand Street
Although it may seem cheap, the station's premise would merely involve moving the current walls back, unmodifying them, and placing the Second Avenue Tracks there.
Houston Street
BMT Station design, BMT needs a Houston Street Station.
14 Street
Bare black walls, it's obscene, but it's a part of some subway station's identity. It pays homage to the street's old reconstruction project.
23 Street
IRT 1918 design, less ornate than it's predecessors, but we can make up for it with nice tile.
34 Street
(I'm running out of subway ideas)
The station is built to look like an automotive tunnel, like it's neighbor. It will have a long walkway to Toity Toid and Toid.
42 Street - United Nations
The station has, mounted on it's walls, ironwork meant to replicate the els. Covering over part of the platform blocking the view of the high ceiling, which changes from night to day, is a canopy, and the walls are painted, to amalgamate some of the best views ever experienced from an el.
Queensborough Bridge
This station, because of it's proximity to the Lexington Avenue staion, it will have a modern design, like Lexington.
72 Street
There is no platform at 72 street, just build four tracks and park trains on the outside for boarding. Seriously, the station is supposed to look the Transit Museum, on steroids.
86 Street
A very civic station, fit for a mayor, like one would ever ride a subway, but anyway.
96 Street
Built with Bricks, this station is supposed to look like 49th Street, we have to include them all, don't we?
116 Street
Maybe it would be more fitting elsewhere, but we have to dispose of our trash somehow. This station would be designed like the BMT of the 70s, hopefully it will at that time be the last one. It will be covered with Grafitti contributed by those who didn't want to risk death at South Street, and the homeless would live here.
115 Street
I feel bad with the people who have to be stuck with the station above, so they get a 115th Station as grand as all the others until 116 can be renovated and it's shell with the BMT tile will be used to build a Fresh Kills station.
125 Street
Let's have a contest for this one!
If you have any comments, or an idea for where to put the design of the 116 station, designed to ridicule the people who designed the 70s BMT tile and Penn Station (hey! kill two birds with one stone!) as the fools they really are and cause them to spin around painfully in their graves while their bodies burn in hell for all eternity. Of course, I don't think the architect who designed Penn Septic Tank is dead yet, he's only 40 :)
VERY SORRY for all the horrid imagery that possibly marred this post, David Pirmann is welcome to remove that if necessary.
/* If you have any comments, or an idea for where to put the design of the 116 station, designed to ridicule the people who
designed the 70s BMT tile and Penn Station (hey! kill two birds with one stone!) as the fools they really are and cause them
to spin around painfully in their graves while their bodies burn in hell for all eternity. Of course, I don't think the architect
who designed Penn Septic Tank is dead yet, he's only 40 :) */
Personally - I'd like to see Penn Station leveled, and started from scratch. I mean, completely leveled. The current attempt to create a "modern" old penn station from the post office is a joke. What I'd do:
1) Totally level MSG, penn, etc. Yes, I know, doing this without screwing up LIRR, NJT, or Amtrak would be a feat in itself!
2) Even more of a feat - realign the platforms in there. Track 17 in particular isn't a very good one - Make all the platforms as straight and long as possible.
3) Build a new station on top of this. I'd love to see an Art Deco design (WPA murals and all - I LOVE that stuff:), with HIGH ceilings, big, open spaces, BRIGHT lighting, and all on one level.
4) The platform level would have a real ceiling, to cover all those ugly conduits and ducts. Lighting would, again, be ample. Venting would be ample too, to cool of the platform level a bit (not AC though)
5) On top of the new station, would be a new MSG, styled to go with the station.
6) There would be plenty of staircases, and elecators to each platform. By each one would be a totally electonic, possibly color, poster sized display that would list the train, time it leaves, stops, etc. When not in use, it could show advertising, service notices, etc.
7) Departure monitors, etc, would be High Definition projection displays, with widescreen, running ads, service notices, "did you know..." tidbits, etc.
8) The look would be consistant between the LIRR and NJT / Amtrak sections.
9) And of course, the prerequisite shops/stores, including the billion Hudson News stands there now...
As part of the Westside plans, the mayor included a new MSG next to the stadium. Right there, I wondered why noone got the idea of rebuilding Penn Station where it originally was.
That's what I want, a new MSG over the rail yards and a replica of the old Penn Station, modified slightly to suit modern needs. In thew front of the terminal, a sculpture would be erected that shows the people involved with demolishing the original, crawling on an ash heap while an army of justice stands above, with a gun, ready to give them the ultimate reward of the ultimate act of vandalism.
You know, I'm not a Knicks or Rangers fan anymore because of where they play. Not having anything to do with HOW they play.
I was thinking, why couldn't the Second Avenue line be built as light rail. I don't know if it would be any cheaper than heavy rail subway, but I'm thinking that at large stations, such as Wall St and 42nd Street areas(W/ Grand Central) you could have multiple island platforms(like on Bosotn's Green Line at Park St. or Government Center).
Then in the Bronx and Brooklyn, it can run on ROW or light rail el/subway to various places. I'd think a line to Flatlands and Coney Island using the light rail in Brooklyn. It may be easier with light rail.
What do you think?
[I was thinking, why couldn't the Second Avenue line be built as light rail. I don't know if it would be any cheaper than heavy rail subway, but I'm thinking that at large stations, such as Wall St and 42nd Street areas(W/ Grand Central) you could have multiple island platforms(like on Bosotn's Green Line at Park St. or Government Center).]
Without full grade separation, a light rail line would be stuck at intersections just like motor vehicles and would offer little if any time advantage over buses. I believe that the light rail line in Baltimore suffers from this drawback. Elevating a Second Avenue light rail line would solve the intersection problem - but the costs would be far higher, and you can just imagine how the big cheeses on the Upper East Side would react to seeing an elevated line running outside their co-ops.
[ Elevating a Second Avenue light
rail line would solve the intersection problem - but the costs would
be far higher, and you can just imagine how the big cheeses on the
Upper East Side would react to seeing an elevated line running outside
their co-ops. ]
Hmm, this sounds familiar.. An elevated rapid transit line along 2nd avenue. Why didn't they think of that, umm, about 100 years ago?
You are right. If they could not afford to replace the "L"s with subways they should not have been removed. Was there an l on 2nd? I have seen people discuss the 3rd ave l
Light rail with dedicated lanes workes better than buses but if you cannot clear cross street traffic from the intersection between singal cycles then it will not work well
Where light rail works best is in segregated right of way. Median running such as Torornto Harbor Front and New Orleans St. Charles lines work ok if cross traffic is not great, and signals can handle the conflicts. The speed is far better than bus but no where near rappid transit
There were els on 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenues. The 6th and 8th Avenue IND lines were built to do away with the els on 6th and 9th. The other two would've been knocked out by the 2nd Avenue subway.
Wasn't there an elevate line along second avenue that traveled to the Bronx? Why did they take it down? Did it reduce over crowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway?
[Wasn't there an elevate line along second avenue that traveled to the Bronx? Why did they take it down? Did it reduce over crowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway?]
The El was removed just before World War Two, under the expectation that the Second Avenue subway would be coming along soon. Its removal also was intended as a way to make Second Avenue more esthetically pleasing. These reasons were behind the removal of the Third Avenue El in the early 1950s.
Second and Third Avenues indeed are much nicer than they'd be if an El were clattering overhead. Unfortunately, the other half of the justification for removal - construction of the Second Avenue subway - never came to pass. You'll see the results any rush hour on the Lexington Avenue line.
IF the brakes on trains are operated by air, if there is a air leak in
the brake pipe cause the train to loose its brakes totally?
Why shouldn't the brakes use air to hold back the brakes?
Also can anyone explain regenative braking? What is a resistor grill?
Regenerative braking uses the electric motors as generators in the braking cycle. They resistance caused by the generator slows the train and adds power to grid In dymamic braking the same thing happens except the power genrated is run to the resistors and creates heat.
What is a resistor grill
When power is applied to the motors you cannot go from full off to full on. Resisters are added to the motor circuit to soft start them if you will. As speed increases more resistors are removed from the circuit until full power is flowing to the motors.
The resisters build heat and need to be cooled They are arranged in rows and with their cooling fins and look like a radiator, kind of. In dynamic braking the resistors are used to control acceleration and deceleration of the car.
Also can anyone explain regenative braking?
Currently all NYCT trains use dynamic braking whereby the traction motors are converted into generators. The resistance on the motors slows the train while the electricity generated is convertewd to heat in resistor banks under the train. Regenerative braking works on the same principle but the generated electricity is put back into the 3rd rail and used by other trains.
What is a resistor grill?
Resistor GRIDS are banks of resistors mounted under the car. They are divided into two groups, propulsion and braking. During accelleration all propulsion grids are in series with the traction motors. As the train picks up speed, resistance is taken out in steps until it is all out of the circuit. In braking, the other grids are switched in or out depending on the amount of braking requested.
As for you first question, NYCT trains do not use just one air for the brake system. Main reservoir air is used for filling the braks cylinders. Straight air is used for controlling the brake cylinder air.Brake pipe is used for charging the entire system. As long as the Brake pipe air is within the normal operating range (90-110 PSI on all but R-44) the Brake Cylinder air will be proportional to the straight air. If Straight air is max, (80 PSI) then Brake Cylinder pressure will be at max. If Straight air is at 0, then brake cylinder air will be at zero too. If brake pipe goes to zero (BIE) then the straight air will no longer control the brake cylinder air which will go to max.
[ Resistor GRIDS are banks of resistors mounted under the car. They are
divided into two groups, propulsion and braking. During accelleration
]
Are there two distinct sets of grids on all SMEE cars? Or did any of them ever use some grids for both traction control and dynamic resistance?
On every form of SMEE controls I can think of (viz. PCM, MCM,
SCM, CAM, ECAM) there are physically separate resistors and
contactors/cam switches for motoring and braking. Graphics
don't work too well in Subtalk, so this is hard to explain.
The main circuit is a figure-8. Starting from the line switch,
you have one bank of accelerating resistance, with the contactors
to bypass it, the #1 and #3 motors in permanent series (SMEE
cars use 300 volt motors), a branch which is isolated until
the braking contactor closes, in that branch the dynamic braking
resistance with its bypass contactors, then on the bottom the
other set of motors and accelerating resistance, all forming an "8"
In principle, you could use the same grids for motoring and
braking, but you'd need a lot of contactors to switch the circuit
around to create the figure-8 loop necessary to cause dynamic
braking. One example of a design where (at least some of) the
resistance is used for both purposes is the PCC controls (both
GE and WH).
Is there any advantage to dynamic braking over regenerative braking? It seems to me that regerative would save a large part of the cost, monetary and otherwise, of powering the system. Why use dynamic instead?
Because you can't do regen with obsolete (but functional)
rheostatic control of DC motors. You need some sort of
solid state power electronics. The new cars with A/C traction
will regen.
[IF the brakes on trains are operated by air, if there is a air leak in the brake pipe cause the train to loose its brakes totally?
Why shouldn't the brakes use air to hold back the brakes?]
That is exactly what they do. While I couldn't quite follow Steve's detailed description about pressures in different pipes following each other, I do understand the basic principle that the air pressure keeps the brakes FROM being applied, so that if pressure is lost, the brakes are applied automatically (a "fail-safe" situation). That is why, when a train goes into an emergency stop, or when it comes to the end of its run, the air is "dumped" and the system must be "recharged" with air in order for the brakes to be released and the train to move again.
Right guys? I am surprised none of the other answers addressed themselves to this basic question that was asked.
[ I do understand the basic principle that the air pressure keeps
the brakes FROM being applied, so that if pressure is lost, the brakes
are applied automatically (a "fail-safe" situation). That is why, when
a train goes into an emergency stop, or when it comes to the end of
its run, the air is "dumped" and the system must be "recharged" with
air in order for the brakes to be released and the train to move
again.]
The basic principle you describe does take effect on subway cars, for emergency braking only, though. The "brake pipe" on subway cars is always at full pressure. Emergency vents this to the atmosphere (and there are several systems to make sure that once this starts, it happens fast). That's what "dump" means, dumping the brake pipe.
At first, one might think, though, that the brakes work with springs or something, and are held off by air. That's not the case, though. Basically, there is a reservoir of air which is maintained by the brake pipe, and the brake pipe keeps this air in the reservoir. When the brake pipe pressure drops, this air is sent to the cylinder.
This basic principle began with the first automatic air brake systems a long time ago. Someone posted this link earlier: http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/ which has some good explanations of how air brakes work. SMEE (all current) subway cars use a more complicated mechanism for service braking, though. The article on E-P braking though, is close to how the AMUE/AMRE systems on the pre-war cars worked, though.
The new LIRR cars I believe have brakes have air held back by air.
There is a gush of air before the application. Brake on certain buses use air to hold the brakes back. Are the NYCTA and MCI like that? Or do they operate like train brakes?
The LIRR M-1s and M-3s have P-Wire braking. When you've passed Air Brake 101, P-Wire will be covered in the following semester.
Hey - don't the M-2s have Westcode though? I DO know they have braking notches, which is kinda weird...
[ The new LIRR cars I believe have brakes have air held back by air.
There is a gush of air before the application. Brake on certain buses
use air to hold the brakes back. Are the NYCTA and MCI like that? Or
do they operate like train brakes? ]
I think that all the LIRR diesel fleets have standard AAR frieght braking systems. I'm not sure, though. I am sure that it's a reduction system. The new equipment might have an electric brake, and might consequently have partial release, but I'm not sure.
Thanks for the attempt at clarification. I'll take a look at that site and see if I understand it any better.
The next time you are sweltering in a subway station, think dynamic brakes' grids and air conditioners' exhaust. Two reasons why stations today are much hotter than they were in the "good old days."
And that's transit and (sort of) weather together.
[ The next time you are sweltering in a subway station, think dynamic
brakes' grids and air conditioners' exhaust. Two reasons why stations
today are much hotter than they were in the "good old days." ]
Air conditioning certainly _is_ an issue, but theoretically, dynamic braking shouldn't be that much of an issue for the following reason:
Both dynamic braking _and_ tread brakes stop a train by turning the momentum of the train into heat.
If that's the case, then the only difference is where that heat goes. It all is going to be down there somewhere, but the two systems might vary in how much is dumped in stations, as opposed to the tunnels, etc.
My local LIRR branch, the Port Washington, bears traces of freight runs on the line in the past.
There is an abandoned freight house at Bayside, recently spared from demolition, and there may be another at Broadway: a small house on the eastbound track has a locked door that used to open on Station Road.
Anyone know the last time freight was regularly carried on this line, when the freight houses were last used, and what happened to the freight when it reached Port Washington (or was Bayside the freight terminus?)
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
I live in Bayside myself. Did they ever figure out what they are going to do with that house, so that the local businesses don't lobby again to destroy it.
From my days as an Engineer at NY&A Rwy I had asked the same question. One of my instructors was a 32 year Long Island Rail Road veteran. He told me he could not remember there being freight on the Pt Wash in his time. so figure it's been gone since the mid 60's.
Can anyone tell me where they offer a two year degree within NYS for transportation?
Back in the '60s a group of us Pan Am'ers got the ear of the Evening Dean at Queensboro Community College. He set up class rooms in Pan Am's Cargo Bldg. for us at night. A few years later we got Bernard Baruch (sp ?) to offer 4 year classes. Then the city had a financial problem in the '70s. I graduated in '76.
Why did Queensboro do this ... they added a "Transportation" speciality to their catalog. Give them a call it may still be their.
Mr t__:^)
I was browsing through the website and I came upon the section that describes the Coney Island yard.
It states that it can overhaul almost all the subway cars in the fleet including the Staten Island Rapid Transit.
This made me wonder - does this mean that a tunnel does exist that links Brooklyn with Staten Island? How else would the cars be taken from one place to another, unless car floats are used.
If such a tunnel does exist, why couldn't it be expanded to provide subway service to that borough? I understand that Robert Moses years ago had a hand in not letting that happen, but what about the present day?
[It states that it (Coney Island Yard) can overhaul almost all the subway cars in the fleet including the Staten Island Rapid Transit.
This made me wonder - does this mean that a tunnel does exist that links Brooklyn with Staten Island? How else would the cars be taken from one place to another, unless car floats are used.]
No, there's no such tunnel. Plans for one have been bandied about for decades, and there was even some exploratory digging many years ago, but nothing was built and probably never will be built.
Almost all SIRT car maintenance can be handled at the Clifton Shops. On the very rare occasion that a car needs work at Coney Island, it's transported by flatbed truck (probably a costly undertaking).
Ah, they complain about everything:)
According to a book I read on the history of the subways the 4rth Av line in Bklyn was originally meant to go through a tunnel to Staten Island and thats why it went as far as it did.
The Coney Island Shops -- if I recall the what the tour guide had said correctly -- is FRA approved, which means they are one of the few rapid transit rail facilities that has capabilites to handle overhaul work on standard American railroad equipment. This means that in rare capacity they can do work on flat cars, hoppers, box cars, etc., should some local freight lines (say NYCH or NY&A) have some such emergency that would require the NYCT to come to their rescue.
How large is CI yard(in acres?).
In May local SubTalkers Doug, Sid of NJ, & I made that tour. Also we met Subtalkers from London & Philly. One of the hand-outs says:
75 acres, 25 of it under roofs ... opened 1926, incl. 3 yards with a capacity to hold 1,800 cars.
Mr t__:^)
Technically, the Wheel and Axle shop is AAR certified. I don't know if the pneumatic shop is similarly certified.
Is it me, or have subway cars gotten smaller?
When I think of the difference in space between the Almond Joys and the M-4's, I see that the M-4's have considerably less headroom and seating?.
The M-4's are equipped with A/C and wheelchair areas unlike the Almond Joys, but wold those(especially the A/C) really decrease the amount of room inside the car that much?
Today, when people aren't getting smaller and personal space is such an issue, do the people who build railcars consider this?
What's the difference between an "A" car, like and R-62a or R-68a and a regular R-62/68?
Different manufacturers?
Yes, and usually some mechanical equipment differences (GE versus Westinghouse electricals, for instance)
-Hank
When you see an "A" like that it usually means an add-on to an existing contract which for some accounting reason is not designated as a separate R number. They may or may not have the same components or builder. The R-32A's(3350-3649) and the R-32's(3650-3949) were both built by Budd and were identical except that the last 150 R-32's (3800-3949) had baffle type fans and back lighted advertisements.
The R-7A's built by Pullman-Standard and ACF were identical to the R-7's built by the same two companies.
On the other hand the R-62's were built by Kawasaki while the R-62A's were built by Bombardier and are virtually identical except for some roll sign differences.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One notable variation on this theme was the R40/R40A/R40M contracts: The R40A denoted the slants with A/C, R40 did not have A/C and R40M had the R42 ends. I'm not sure if they used these designations in the official contract language, however they seem to have become widely used to designate these cars.
Wayne
What's a "baffle" fan and what were those rollsign differences?
Jaman: "Baffle type fan"is my own designation. The original fans blew the air directly down onto you. The last 150 R-32's had a somewhat modified version of this that directed the air up and around.
The roll sign differences between the R-62 and R-62'a were minor,one had a reading in a single line ie Woodlawn-Jerome Av while the other had a two line version Woodlawn
Jerome Av
For the life of me I can't remember which was which. I was on the IRT last week but I usally ride the Redbirds and avoid the Silver Bullets.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The correct term for that type of fan diffuser is: Peripheral Discharge Air Diffuser. These were found on the above-mentioned R32s PLUS ALL of the R38s and all of the Non-A/C Slant R40s. These fans blew air out through little holes at the edges of the fan housing rather than through the fins (known as "Annular Concentric Vanes") of the standard Axiflo fans. As a result, they sucked in a large amount of steel dust, soot and grime, and deposited this on the car ceiling and inside the light fixtures, dimming them considerably.
Westinghouse was the manufacturer of these fans.
"This Information courtesy of Passenger Car Data 1947-1968"
Wayne
So thats why the ceiling was so dirty on those cars.The back lighted advertisements also were not as bright as the regular lamp arrangement.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember the Slant R40s in their pre-GOH days on the "F", "E" and even on the "A". It was a world of difference between the interior lighting on the Non-A/C and A/C R40s. The Non-A/C R40s had a major problem with dirt/grime/munge around the fans. The A/C ones, with their neat little vents down the car center, never had this problem.
As a result, the interior lighting functioned better and the car was brighter.
For some odd reason, a LOT of the non-A/C R40s had cars where lights were half out - out on one whole side, or dark on one end on one side, or even every other fixture out one one side. The A/C R40s didn't have this little glitch.
Wayne
I heard some report this morning that the one-time subway gunman has lost his pet(?!) squirrel and his put out a $1,000 reward for it's return.
Seems the animal jumped off his shoulder and hasn't been seen since.
Maybe someone should direct Bernie to search every city park where they flourish like our cherished pigeons.
Doug aka BMTman
Opps! Sorry about the typo in the heading!
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, at least squirrels don't crap on your car (or my good suit!!!!!)
-Hank
The Rail Historian believes that Squirrels do produce waste products that you call "crap". Bernie did no go to the bathroom on a subway car. Bernie should become a rail fan.
[ Hey, at least squirrels don't crap on your car (or my good suit!!!!!) ]
I don't know about doug's car or your suit, but squirrels must crap somewhere.. It probably just isn't as adhesive or immediately visible as aviary waste..
The obligatory on-topic question: Which is more caustic to car rooves, and does it matter if it's a steel car roof, or stretched canvas?
Aviary droppings are worse because they contain uric acid. Squirrels do not produce uric acid, unless they have gout. They produce urea, and discharge it in a liquid, separately like YOU (and me).
Ok, ok, ok...the joke is over. When did this become the Biology message board, anyway?
Hey, a question was asked, I answered it.
Maybe not on my car or on your suit, but on my pillow. Seriously. Three times in two days. Squirrels are truly evil.
Uhm, sleep indoors, or zip up the tent.
-Hank :)
(If I had a laptop.....)
The squirrel had the good sense to get outta there when the getting was good.
Gee...and to think I had always thought he had lost it a long,long time ago...
To be totally honest, unless it's because of years of
strain and torsion, I've never fully understood the
problem with the Manhattan
Bridge. It seems to do nothing but aggrivate riders,
consume lots of money and take up untold posts on this
board.
Why was the bridge considered the best way between those
areas of Brooklyn and Manhattan instead of a tunnel?
I'm sure the engineers, and whoever was representing NYC
transit interests at the time would have forsaw that at
some point in the future, major work would have to be done
because of years of strain on the bridge.
Though the only real problems it has transitwise is the
elimination of various express services, it seems to be a
real hassle for a lot of people from transportation
officials to people who don't even use the bridge (I'm
sure they'd rather see their taxes go to something more
dire). It also seems to be taking a lot more time than it
should.
While I don't propose doing away with the transit
structure in lieu of a tunnel(like I could if I wanted to)
does anyone agree that's it's almost more trouble than
it's worth?
An East River crossing, in addition to the Montague St. tunnel, is a "must" for the southern Brooklyn BMT/IND trains. The B, D, and Q trains carry enough passengers between Brooklyn and Manhattan so that it's an extreme disappointment to see that the MTA isn't willing to "bite the bullet" and work to build a tunnel replacement for the bridge tracks they use. And, of course, the N already is diverted from the bridge. Too bad politics plays such an important role. Can anyone justify, on an actual need basis, spending tens of millions of dollars on the Franklin Ave. renovation, which few people use, while this pressing bridge alternative need by many, many more riders is ignored?
Larry Littlefield has commented extensively on the need to realistically address the bridge problem. Too bad the politicians seem to be so involved with the access to Manhattan from Nassau and places further east.
Mike Rothenberg
transit fans have a new site to check out
http://hometown.aol.com/gyalzsuga/myhomepage/index.html
I've checked a couple of times and get the message "Document contains no data".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully this will work.click
here
It works, thanks for the link. Mr t__:^)
It seems that the brakes on most of the cars on the #2 line seem to be noisier than before. I also noticed that some of the #3 cars also had some brake noise problems. Does this mean there is a lack of maintenance on the wheels and brakes lately?
i was riding a brooklyn bound r train today and every time the train stopped the brakes squealed very loudly usually quiter on those r-46 cars...
The screeching of the brakes is indicative of a problem in the dynamic brake system of the car that is screeching. Under normal circumstances a subway car will slow to 5 -7 MPH before the air brake will apply. This is because as long as the dynamic brake current is being generated, a portion of it is used to energixe a valve called the 'Lockout magnet Valve' which locks out the air brake. As the dunamic fades when the train slows,the lockout opens and air flows into the brake cylinder for the final stop.
When you hear screeching, it usually means that the lockout circuit is not functioning, probably because there is no dynamic brake. However, the air brake is equivalent to the dynamic brake so the train will brake normally except for the annoying squeel.
The increase in the screeching brakes is a product of two causes. First, the hot weather plays havoc with the controllers, which are more prone to failure in the heat. Second is that maintenance efforts at virtually all shops have been diverted to maintaining the A/C systems. The problems of the R-46s and R-32s at Jamaica Shop have not gone un-noticed and we are pulling trains out of service as service needs permit, to make the necessary repairs.
We have an early example of this at Seashore, our Nagasaki trolley care #134. The controller is a "cyneston" type single handle (like the R-44/46). With the handle pointing at you (6 o'clock), you are in power off/coast. Power is applied in series and then parallel moving through successive notches (through resistance points) clockwise. But moving counterclockwise from power off are points of dynamic braking.
To slow, you take the first point of dynamic braking until it fades, then go to the next, and the next, and the next. When you run out of points (I think there are four or five) at about 5 mph, you must use the handbrake (there is no air) to stop (with appropriate squeals).
[ However,
the air brake is equivalent to the dynamic brake so the train will
brake normally except for the annoying squeel. ]
Can the air tread brakes really give the same amount of braking force as the dynamics at speed? I thought that the dynamics were capable of more effort until you got down to 10 or 15 MPH or so.
Maybe that was the case with cast-iron shoes, and the composite shoes more balanced static/kinetic friction profile allows them to provide more effort at high speed while not locking at lower speeds..
If you have enough normal force on the brake shoes, then tread
brakes can deliver plenty of braking effort. All a matter of
how much brake cylinder pressure, the area of the piston, and
the mechanical leverage of the brake rigging. Of course, high
speed high rate braking means lots of heat and all the attendant
wheel defects.
I would have thought that the technology existed today to make and maintain a friction-type brake for rail cars that doesn't squeel. Automobile brakes don't squeel unless they need maintenance. Are rail cars too heavy to stop silently? Is it the design of the brakes? Or are they just not maintained?
Maybe its the heat produced or its metal against metal.
I'll bet you guys could do a job on that subject title.
I have an undated New York City Transit System map in my collection. It is copyright by George J. Nostrand (W/O a date), and apparently sold by Pioneer Office Supply Co of 258 Broadway, New York.
The last stop on the IND is Rockaway Ave and it is identified as the A Line. In fact all IND lines seem to be identified by letter such as A, C, E, F, and GG. There seems to be service across the Brooklyn Bridge but no station at Park Row. There may be no station at Park Row because it looks as if the printer whited out the 2nd Ave El just before printing.
I'm guessing this map is from somewhere around 1940.
Can anyone tie it in any closer?
Karl B
Must be 1942. That's the year the IND opened to B'way-ENY and also the year that the whole Second Avenue El closed, must be why it was just whited out. The IND extension may have opened later that year.
BTW, I don't think that it's appropriate to ask for dating help on this board. There are many other boards for that.
Thanks JAMAN! 1942 is the year I will go with. You gave me just the dating help that I needed.
Karl B
Karl: When I first saw the title of this thread I thought you were looking for a girl friend.
Maybe I can help a little.
The IND terminated at Rockaway Av from 4/9/36 to 12/30/46. The IRT 2 Aveune El from Queens to Chatham Square was closed on 6/12/42 although the 3 Avenue El continued to run.
BMT service over the Brooklyn Bridge was discontinued on 3/5/44.
So I would have to date your map somewhere between March of 1944 and December 1946.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Whoops!! I guess I'd better reconsider that 1942 date then. Thanks Larry! I was going to send you a note about this map, but I don't think that my E-mails are getting through to you.
BTW My wife says that I am not allowed to have a girlfriend!
Karl B
Larry RedbirdR33, Think about this a minute. Considering the dates that you listed, I looked at the map again. It definately shows service across the Brooklyn Bridge and the Sands St station is shown. The only problem is that the Park Row station is missing. I am thinking that the Park Row station accidentally got deleted when they deleted the 2nd Ave Line. Would that not date this map between 6/12/42 and 3/5/44?
Karl B
Karl: It may be as you say but the Brooklyn Bridge Line crossed what would properly be both branches of the 3 Avenue El. The 2 Avenue El ended at Chatham Square even though the trains ran over the 3 Av south of that point. If it was a printers mistake then it could have been between the dates you mentioned.
I did receive your last e-mail so my post is working. Thank you for the info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
...of course, there is the possiblity that for two years they just let the trains fly down the Brooklyn Bridge and off the end of the track with no station there (heck, they were gonna scrap the el cars anyway, why not have some fun to take everybody's mind off WWII)
On the down side, this would have been far more dangerous to LaGuardia and the other people inside City Hall than Rudy thinks the closed underground IRT station is.
Don't forget, those El cars were used for still another 15 years after Brooklyn Bridge service ended. I think someone at this site said that they were used on the Myrtle Ave line until 1959.
Karl B
After studying this map some more it dawned on me that the Third Ave El is gone south of Chatham Square, except for the tie-in over to Chambers Street. According to this map there is no El south of Chatham Square. I guess that whoever had the job to delete the 2nd Ave El just took out everything right down to South Ferry and the Park Row station at the end of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I suppose this still dates the map circa 1943 but I wonder how many other errors are in it.
Karl B
If there's no el south of Chatham Sq, then the map dates back to 1950, when South Ferry was closed. City Hall was abandoned in 1953, leaving only Chatham Sq to be the Southern Terminus for this el.
-Stef
Stef, The map shows service across the Brooklyn Bridge, but no Park Row station in Manhattan. The Sands St station in Brooklyn is shown. The IND terminates at Rockaway Ave in Brooklyn. As I said to Steve, I think that whoever was making the corrections to update this map really did not know very much about transit. Did the Lexington Ave Line ever operate all the way to 168th St in Jamaica? In my time it terminated at 111th St. This map would indicate that it went all the way to 168th.
Karl B
Karl: Without going into great detail I would say that the Lexington Av El ran to 168 Street from the time the line was opened in 1918 up until 1923 when it was cut back to Eastern Parkway with rush hour extension to 111 Street. This service pattern lasted until October 13,1950 when the Lex was closed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, That's about what I figured. In other words the mapmaker had not updated this particular line since 1923, yet he was all fired up to get the 1942 demise of the 2nd Ave El off the map and deleted station names and stations on other lines in the process.
Karl B
From what I read, it did at some point. In 1920, the Lex did indeed proceed to 168th St. It was only 3 years later that the folks in the new found BMT decided to cut the Lex back to Eastern Parkway. That should have been the case until the el was closed in 1950. Perhaps what went to 111th St was the Broadway Brooklyn Local which had multiple terminals. The line was also referred to as the #14.
-Stef
Stef, I lived on that line from 1942-1957. From personal experience I know that during rush-hours the Lex was extended from Eastern Parkway to 111th St and service was by open platform gate cars until Oct 13th, 1950. There was 24/7 service from NY to 168th St using Standards or "steels" as we called them then. I never saw a gate car beyond 111th St, unless it was on a work train.
Karl B
I see. Well, thanks!
Hey, you know I was at the front of 1349 over at Branford, flagging the car into the shop as the 1907 Hi-Voltage Car was pushing from behind? What an odd item! The cars were connected by a tow bar and not coupler to coupler as those two would have lost their couplers going around the loop. The loop is a bit tight for the Rapid Transit Cars. 1349 really needs the work! Unfortunately, she's not functional right now. The motors aren't even mounted on the trucks. I hope Jeff H. and my friends in the shop can find a way to make 1349 roll again. The gates on one end have been dismantled. She'd be great for an excursion in the summer, running alongside our BRT Convertible Streetcar, 4573.
-Stef
Stef, Thanks for the news on #1349. A friend tells me that the gates are off of one end because they are going to attempt to construct a new end platform. I understand that one side is painted green with no number and the other side is painted brown and numbered. Gosh, I wish I could get up there to see it and touch it. I hope you can keep me updated on the progress made.
Karl B
Karl...are you a member? There is a picture of 1349
in the August issue of the Shore Line Trolley Museum's
newsletter.
Jeff, No I'm not a member, in fact I have never even had the opportunity to visit. I figure that by auto I must be about 9 or 10 hours away from Branford so I guess there is not too much chance of me getting there. When I left NY in 1957, I went southwest. Considering my interests, I should have gone north or northeast and I would have wound up a lot closer. I used to have a number of different memberships and subscriptions but retirement has meant giving most of them up. I do still have my membership in O&WRHS. I'll bet you won't be able to figure that one out.
Karl B
I'll see you and raise you! I know what it is, and I suspect Jeff does too, but we'll find out. Where did you end up, Karl? From the general direction you gave it sounds like you could be anywhere from West-By-God_Virginia to Kentucky, Tennesee, or North Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse,
Did you ever hear of Gettysburg? There was a very big battle here 136 years ago. It's in south-central Pennsylvania, a stones-throw from the Maryland state line. My wife just reminded me that I still have my membership in THS too. Can you do anything with that one?
Karl B
P.S.- What the devil is llRC? That one really stumps me.
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
As to Gettysburg, yes, I'm rather familiar with that place. I had family on both sides there during the War of Northern Aggression (now that you know where my sympathies lie!).
You got me on THS!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, I have been reading that all this time as LLRC. If I had read it correctly the first time I saw it, I just might have figured it out. I guess I didn't just get old, I got stupid too!
I may originally be from Brooklyn, but I dearly love North Carolina. If I couldn't be here, it would be my next choice.
There was a tragic historical event on Apr,14-15th,1912 which was the reason THS was created. Got it now?
To get back on topic, Do you know the number and condition of the other 1300 at Branford?
Karl B
OK, the Titanic. No, I don't know the status of the other 1300 - I haven't visited there since 1993, even though I've been "temporarily" working in New Jersey since January of 1996 (North Carolina being what I have called my "permanent" residence since 1981). I'm sure one of the Branford members can answer that question, though.
I can't remember the last time I was in Gettysburg - all I can say for sure is that it was before I was married, and I've been Zayda for the last 2 1/2 years!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, you got be straightened out on IIRC, and then you come up with Zayda!! You've got me again! What's Zayda?
Do you remember when Cheerios were called Cheerioats, and it was the Lone Ranger's breakfast cereal? I'll bet you don't even remember who Brace Beemer was!!
Karl B
Zayda is Yiddish for Grandpa - although my Jewish ancestry is Sephardic (and therefore my great-grandmother's vernacular would have been Ladino rather than Yiddish) I come from an interfaith background with little immediate cultural heritage, and besides, Zayda is quite easy for a young tongue to master. My grandson Alex was 2 in March and he is expecting a brother around the beginning of October. I don't remember Cheerios being called Cheerioats, but I do associate them with the Lone Ranger. And Brace Beemer doesn't ring a bell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess you have seen that LarryRedbirdR33 knew who Brace Beemer was. I was going to tell you that he was to radio what Clayton Moore was to TV. He forgot to tell us who Fred Foy was though.
I found out that the other 1300 at Branford is the 1362. I found the information right at this site. I am still wondering about its condition.
Tomorrow we stay on topic, Right!
Karl B
Yes, 1362 is the other 1300 series BU. It differs from 1349
in some minor detail, being of another car builder. I would
have to honestly describe the condition as fair, which if you've
ever collected coins you know really means "not too pleasant".
The car is outdoor storage, although it has a long-term protective
tarp on it. I inspected it last year and the tarp is keeping
it stabilized.
Karl, retired membership in BERA is only $15/year! Think it over.
Right ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Karl: Brace Beemer was the original Lone Ranger on radio. He was replaced by Earle Grasser but returned after Grasser was killed in a car accident. HI-Yo Silver Away''
Larry,RedbirdR33
I visited Gettysburg in May of 1972. My high school band from New Jersey performed at the high school there as part of an exchange concert with the Gettysburg band. They visited us in March of that year and spent a day in NYC. We toured the battleground there. That trip also marked the last time I was on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
August 9 played host to a few milestones, to get back on topic. I rode on the IRT for the first time, to the Bronx Zoo, on this date in 1967, and visited Shore Line for the first time in 1980.
Wow! I haven't been on in two days and what an incredible thread this is? I have multiple posts going up since I haven't been on in so long.
Karl,
I'll do my best to keep you updated. The only other 1300 series car at Branford is 1362, condition unknown. Jeff will have a better idea of how that car is. I don't expect it to be functional. At present time, 1362 is sitting under a tarp outside the barns on what we call the Runaround Track with another classic el car, BRT Instruction Car 999. I really do hope that each of the el cars get some Tender Loving Care as 1227 can't do all the chores on the Branford Museum Line. Every car has a problem and is in some kind of condition. They have to be handled, but the question is when and how long will the restoration work take. And of course, who has the $?
Being understaffed is also an unfortunate disadvantage.
-Stef
This Rail Historian has seen car 1349 at BERA in 1988 and in 1973. It a wonderful BU Gate. I have many photographs of it at BERA in New York City.
The car looks okay. I wish it was in better shape.
-Stef
This Rail Historian has seen car 1349 at BERA in 1988 and in 1973. It's a wonderful BU Gate. I have many photographs of it at BERA and in New York City.
[So I would have to date your map somewhere between March of 1944 and December 1946.]
As a historical note, a date near the end of that period - December 23, 1946 - set a record, which still stands, for the most people carried on the subway in a 24-hour period. IIRC, it was something over eight million!
That record included a fellow by the name of Brian Cudahy. I'm willing to bet that Marx Brothers scene which Wayne has alluded to a few times repeated itself quite a bit that day.
One thought: are there any IND 6th Ave. routes (BB, D, F) on that map? The 6th Ave. line opened on December 15, 1940.
Steve, I am afraid that this is just not a very accurate map. I guess the maker did not keep up with what was actually going on in transit. What I would call the 6th Ave line shows only the letters C & F. The C apparently went to 205th St in the Bronx, and the F to 169th St in Jamaica. The letters BB or D are not shown at all.
Karl B
There was a C service, in addition to the CC back then, but it operated via 8th Ave. Same thing with the E. The B, D, and F markings were set aside for 6th Ave. services and were implemented when that line opened. You may have a pre-1940 map. Does the map even show the 6th Ave. line?
I sent a copy of the map to LarryRedbirdR33 just today. I saw so many things that confused me that I'm not sure when it was from. I've been gone so long that there are stations and lines that I have forgotten or just don't remember. I suspect that there were some corrections that were missed starting in 1923. I trust that Larry will post his comments after he has a chance to look it over. I still think that 1942 is a pretty close date.
Karl B
The Rail Historian knows that someone on Subtalk must have entered the tunnel under the apartment building between Sedgewick Avenue and Anderson-Jerome Avenue Stations on the Polo Ground. People live in this apartment building and there must be access.
What happened to that knowledgeable individual called Mr. Train Control? I enjoyed reading his messages on train control subjects. He really knows his stuff well.
Sometimes another city does something better than New York and I discovered just such a thing in Chicago two weeks ago, which no doubt will provide New York's TA with an outstanding model to copy.
At O'Hare, there is a machine where one can buy a one-day visitor's pass. The machine does not give change, however, so one must deposit five dollars.
Next to the pass machine is a change machine, which will give change for a $10 bill, for example. One inserts the $10 bill and gets ten Susan B. Anthony dollars.
The machine for the day pass, which is right next to the change machine, does not take the SBAs which just came out of the CTA's change machine, only paper money.
If a CTA employee with five singles (willing to exchange the SBAs for folding money at par) had not been there, I would have had to walk all over the terminal to get change for the day pass. I would imagine someone with a roll of dollar bills could make a good profit all day long by charging 7 or 8 SBAs for 5 dollar bills.
Since CTA and the NYTA are similar-thinking agencies, can we expect matching machines like Chicago's to appear in New York?
Just wondering.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Sorry for hitting the wrong button--I didn't mean this to be a response to the inquiry about Mr. Train Control's whereabouts but simply a new post.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
You've got to be kidding. Let's hope New York goes one step further and installs machines which will accept dollar coins, as well as paper currency.
Not kidding--it happened just as I recounted it.
It was the juxtaposition of the two CTA machines that really got to me.
I also had problems a few years back with ticket machines for the San Diego trolley, which had signs that they couldn't accept various kinds of currency (new bills, for example, but they were working on it).
What's terribly frustrating about much of this is the insistence on cash or equivalent fares only or particular kinds of currency--drivers/operators/motorpeople don't give change so it might happen that a farebox won't take the currency you have, even though it's legal tender--and they don't want pennies.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I can't speak for Chicago, but NYC bus fareboxes do accept pennies, despite the claim (displayed prominently on the farebox itself) that they don't. (Or, at least, they did, pre-MetroCard -- I suppose the newest fareboxes may have changed this.)
He decided to stop posting because it would be the "Politically Correct" thing to do. I hope that the current Penn Station is demolished and it's debris dumped in the Meadowlands under which the "PC Police" should all be buried. Just combining two things.
*I* can answer this but I suspect the idea behind your post was not to have me answer it. Right?
-Dave
$(LOGDIR)/access_log :)
Oh, why, oh WHY does that look like a VMS command?
because it has a slash in it...but it's UNIX
This Rail Historian wants someone to start a Rail Fan Hall of Fame. This will be like the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. It will have displayed memorabilia from famous rail fans including famous photographs and artifacts. The ERA will be represented. Don Harold should the greatest living rail fan in the Hall of Fame. The first rail fan like Herman Hinke should be recognized. Ed Watson and Bernard Linder should be kept in high esteem. David Pirmann the famous webmaster could be recognized for his contributions to the World Wide Web.
The Rail Fan Hall of Fame would at the New York Transit Museum.
This just reminds me. Sylvia's diner in 270 Broadway (at Chambers) is sort of a "Miss Subways" hall of fame, sporting various pictures.
My mistake, that's Ellen's. I got my diners-with-women's-names mixed up.
Don't forget Ellen's Stardust Diner at 1650 Broadway (46th St). That's the one with the outside made up to look like a Redbird.
Sylvia's? That's uptown - 126th & Malcolm X Bvld (#2/#3). Best fried chicken I have EVER eaten, period.
Wayne
I'll nominate someone, while he was more of a traction photographer,he recorded a great deal of the Third Ave Railway System. The man was Frank Schlegel
The Rail Historian wants to thanks Mr. David Pirmann for this great website. Everyone using Subtalk and Bustalk needs to thank him.
Here Here.
However, let's not do it at the initial suggestion of an infantile mentality. (Not you, Larry)
Agreed. This isn't necessary. Lets keep things on topic.
That's true. Everyone give Dave a hand!
The Rail Historian wants to recognize Harry Newjint as the famous subway conductor who made interesting station announcements and became a celebrity. He retired a few years ago. Here is one of his messages direct from the "1" train.
"59th Street Columbus Circle is offers John Jay College, Arts Student League, American Bible Society and perhaps all you need is change to A and E trains. Incidently, you are no way obliged to do any of the above things"
Harry needs to be recognized in the RAIL FAN HALL OF FAME.
Yes, definitely a conductor worth remembering. (Although if he offered a transfer to the E at Columbus Circle, perhaps he should take another look at the map.) He also included subway-related details that other conductors don't bother with, like announcing on a SB 1 that "transfers to the downtown express are on the house" -- correctly implying that transfers to the uptown express cost an extra fare.
Didn't he also begin his farewell mini-speech to Zubin Mehta (at 66th-Lincoln Center, of course) with "from one conductor to another"?
The Forgotten NY webmaster has to be something of a nitpicker here and mention that he spelled his name "Nugent."
Visit his site at
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just tryin' to get in the swing of it....
Gee, at first I thought you were writing about me. Ya know, if I made announcements like that I would be afraid to leave my cab!
Yes Harry was a good man. I know him personaly. I remember one day at Times Square someone was holding the doors. He said over the PA. Holding subway train doors can be kind of a drag. I would ride his train from Times Square to 242 Street every morning. One thing witch I never said when I did mention Harry on this site. That is he was consintly being harassed about his annoutsments. But he stud his ground intil the last day. He said the reason for his annoutsments is because he wanted to be Diffrent for the rest. Im just sorry I missed his Big Retirement Party. I was swiched of to the No.6 Line then.
He must have been a Buckinghams fan. They recorded a tune back in the 60s called Kind of a Drag.
That conductor I heard on the A once was good as well. Nice, deep voice, plainly audible. "Good afternoon, passengers, you've just boarded a Lefferts Blvd.-bound A express. The next stop will be 42nd St. No smoking on the train, no smoking on the train."
This Rail Historian finds Harry Nugent to be the greatest in making station annoucements. For example: We are entering the 66th Street station which is located two octives below Lincoln Center and two blocks from the Lillian Beaumont Theatre. Times Square 42nd Street is next where there is a broken heart for every light on Broadway or is it a broken light for every heart on Broadway? However, it breaks my heart that you willleave has us here. You can change for 2,3 express trains, N and R trains, #7 Flushing and the Shuttle. No one easy step here, up one track and down the other. This is the Uptown Number 1 and you're the one we want to ride with us today.
The Rail Historian wants all to have good evening.
I don't know how the rest of you feel but The Rail Historian is starting to get a bit on the annoying side with his posting in the 3rd party and posting things that I think most of us already know about on Transit history.
I am sure you mean well, but TRH, how about coming here in the first person as yourself for a change. The rest of us have no problem being ourselves, how come you do (or do you)?
The Universal Critic agrees.
And the Children must play.
People are too easily annoyed. Unless I'm faced with a credible threat of violence, I just ignore what I don't like. Others put up with me, so who is to say what is worth being posted?
This Rail Historian has been trying to share some facts. Just because you know them is reason why others don't know. I don't appreciate your remarks and I have every right to use Subtalk like you others do. I never called you annoying or others the same. Let's get along. Many others on Subtalk use code names.
I think this "Good Evening" message is a satire posted by someone to make fun of the "Rail Historian"'s style. Some of his posts may seem almost that ridiculous, but not quite.
Dave P., can you determine whether or not the "Good Evening" message came from the same domain as the other "Rail Historian" posts?
They seek him here
They seek him there
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere
Is he is Heaven
Is he in Hell
That damned elusive Rail Historian
The Universal Critic apologies to the Scarlet Pimpernel for the plagiarism.
Boy, do I feel unlettered---I thought you were apologizing to the Kinks---I recognize similar lines from a 1966 release by that musical group.
The Universal Critic does not recall the popular culture reference to which you allude.
The Universal Critic would be grateful if you would supply the name of this "Kinks" song so that the Univeral Critic may be able to make light conversation at cocktail parties and similar social engagements attended by those of a certain generation.
Sorry, Universal Critic---I didn't see your response until just now---the Kinks song to which I was referring was entitled "Dedicated Follower of Fashion", a tongue-in-cheek poke at the Carnaby Street fashion craze of the mid-60's. It was released not long after the transit stike of 1966.
It sounds as if Ray Davies snitched a few of the lines from "The Scarlet Pimpernel" for his 1966 hit "Dedicated Follower Of Fashion", a copy of which sits in slot #38 of Box 1-2 up on my wall unit shelf.
Reprise 0471. Good song!
Wayne
I was on a train this morning, and it dumped about halfway into the station. The T/O buzzed the conductor not to open (I forget if it was one long or three short), and he didn't.
But, nobody called control (I have a radio), and no one got out to observe track conditions. I didn't see if we had ran a signal or not, but there was no train ahead of us, so at most it could have been a timer.
The T/O just charged back up and pulled in..
Several Questions:
1) When a car gets tripped, does someone need to manually reset the tripcock?
2) What are the rules for calling in a BIE and walking the train?
I guess a possibility is that he dropped the button, or just went too far with the controller. In that case, I can see the above actions making sense, since he knew the cause of the BIE, and walking the track wouldn't have helped anything.
It's really starting to get frustrating. All of the following happened on one 4 car train today.
DE30AC - lost power approaching Mineola - fortunately, it restarted.
Car #4090 had no AC & annoying feedback in the PA
Cars 4003 and 5023 had doors that would not function
Train lost indication several times.
At one time I thought that the failures were simply 'infant mortality' type stuff. Now I'm starting to think that the critics are correct about the garbage KHI is supplying. Knowing the ex-TA people working for KHI, I don't expect things to get better any time soon.
What do you mean by "lost indication"? if it's cab signals - they always cut out at impedance bonds - watch next time and you'll notice they drop to 0 for a few secs at every one, ands at lots of switches in harold too.
As far as I'm concerned - the new stuff is just an expensive failure,. Why the LIRR *NEEDED* to get double deckers and a whole new locomotive, when the there was single level stuff and the Genesis, is beyond me.
Seriously - there's no need for a double decker on the Oyster Bay - 2 cars are always closed on the train.
And this evening's rush hour on the LIRR featured 45-minute delays for Ronkonkoma, Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Hempstead trains due to "police activity" at Floral Park. Whatever happened, it couldn't have been much; when my train made its (delayed) way through Floral Park, I checked to see what was going on and had what you might call a Blair Witch experience ... in other words, I saw nothing.
According to CBS-TV news, there was an armed person at the Mineola train station and the Nassau County Police were 'looking' for him.
There is also a story in Newsday saying that it was the Mineola station. Sorry that I'm not net-proficient enough to provide a direct link, but you can get to it by going to www.newsday.com, clicking on Library and then searching the latest one day for "LIRR".
Chuck
[ What do you mean by "lost indication"? if it's cab signals - they ]
I think he meant "Door light", in LIRR parlance. A circuit that will prevent the train from taking power with doors open. The new bilevels add a second layer of protection, that they will not allow the doors to open if the train is going beyond a certain speed, or does not have brake applied.
[ Seriously - there's no need for a double decker on the Oyster Bay - 2
cars are always closed on the train. ]
Off-peak, that's the case. During peak, they've been using 4 open cars, and they need it. The most popular trains on the O/B #507 and #562, which used to be pulled by double-headed MP-15's (but now is push-pull like the rest of them), has 6 pullman coaches. My guess is that those two trains will be the ones on the O/B to get direct Penn Sta service, while the rest of the line will end up terminating at Mineola, using the new siding almost completed there.
Are you a regular Oyster Bay Passenger? Is anyone else here? Maybe we can say hello sometime.
Yup, I'm an OBer as you know Steve K, at least when I visit Roslyn -- the old home town. Actually, Albertson was closest to my house; I could walk there in seven minutes :-)
I use the OB whne i go to the city approxonce a month and i was htinking that the trains with the doulbe head mp15s would be the direct ones can you or anyone else confirm that. I that siding part of all this upgraded for tyhe new fleet
[ I use the OB whne i go to the city approxonce a month and i was
htinking that the trains with the doulbe head mp15s would be the
direct ones can you or anyone else confirm that. I that siding part of
all this upgraded for tyhe new fleet ]
I don't think anyone knows how schedules will change once the DM30's and that siding come into use. Crews don't seem to know. I'm guessing that mgmt is keeping quiet on it, because they know they won't be able to please everyone!
The siding (mineola->merrilon) was done really more as part of the Herricks Road grade crossing elimination project, than out of anything having to do with the bilevels and new platforms. When they built the bridge over Herricks Rd, it allowed them to shift the alignment of the two mainline tracks north, and install this third track on the south. This has been another project that they've been keeping quiet -- Not that it's any kind of secret anymore, but noone really knew why they had the tracks so far north during the herricks rd project, and I think that was mainly to avoid community opposition from people living next to the ROW. By time they figured out they were getting a third track, it was too late to do anything.
And, a tree fell across the Port Jeff tracks (not sure where) and a nut was waving a gun at Mineola.
"There's a holdup in The Bronx, Brooklyn's broken out in fights, there's a traffic jam in Harlem that's backed up to Jackson Heights...Tom Prendergast, where are you"
www.forgotten-ny.com
The tree fell in the vicinity of Smithtown.
[ DE30AC - lost power approaching Mineola - fortunately, it restarted.
Car #4090 had no AC & annoying feedback in the PA
Cars 4003 and 5023 had doors that would not function
Train lost indication several times. ]
I've seen all of these problems before. The indication and door problems are related -- the crews disable the doors when they're not properly giving indication.
The feedback from the PA, as I'm told, is due in part to a modification of the ventilation system in the front (A end) of the cars, near the conductors' position. Apparently, the area with seats just behind the crew booth(s) was not getting enough A/C, so they added some duct work to take some air going to the crew area, and bring it back to those seats. Doing so provided an open ductway from right next to the P/A speaker, to right above the comms panel. This provides an enhanced audio path back to the mic, and the feedback.
At least, that was the story I got from a conductor. I guess the system was marginal before re: feedback, and this put it over the top. I remember when they first came around, the PA mics were very insensitive, and the crew's announcements were a lot lower in volume than the computer announcements, enough that the computer was hurting my ears a bit, and I could hardly hear the crew.
On that topic, the whole computerized announcement system is really a mess, but sometimes it is amusing. I was on #570 (9:00PM Jamaica -> Oyster Bay) last night. For some reason it came in on track 5 instead of 8. (As an aside, I heard tha Jamaica stationmaster tell the crew on my train, 180, which connects, that the O.B would be on 5, and ask that they announce it to the passengers, but the crew didn't say anything. Really bad attitude, if you ask me, because the damned P.A. button is right next to the transmitter button -- how much effort would it take to make the announcement?).
Anyways, I get on the bilevels on track 5, and it says (and reads) "This is the train to Oyster Bay. This station is "Penn Station", The next station is "Long Island City". Of course, this was amusing not only because it was wrong (we were at Jamaica, next stop Mineola), and not only because no train makes Penn then LIC, but because it isn't even possible without a reverse move! (Penn -> Harold Area -> Hunterspoint -> LIC, or Penn -> Jamaica -> Lower Montauk -> LIC). So I asked the Conductor which way we were going, via Hunterspoint or Lower Montauk. He told me Lower Montauk, and that we would not be stopping at Haberman :)
A Penny (Bridge) for your thoughts, Steve!
HUMBUG! Bombardier is serving up garbage! AdTranz is serving up garbage! Now Kawasaki (whom I haven't heard any complaints about up until now) is serving up garbage!
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???
Maybe we should deep-six all of this newfangled stuff and go back to basics and build us some MP-54s or IC PrS coaches or BMT Standards or R10s or more R26s or something else that's going to last for 40+ years! I'm sure the blueprints are out there. But in all seriousness - there seems to be WAY TOO MANY problems with new equipment! Who's checking this stuff out anyway?
Wayne
[Maybe we should deep-six all of this newfangled stuff and go back to basics and build us some MP-54s or IC PrS coaches or BMT Standards or R10s or more R26s or something else that's going to last for 40+ years!]
I've stated in these pages before that transit should be fast, safe, convenient and functional. Gold plating, which started after the public purse became available, has never enhanced the transit vehicles that are in service today. Speak of the PRR/LIRR MP54 or the Bethlehem Shipbuilding RDG MU's from the 1930's. These cars lasted almost fifty years or more. How long did the Boeing Vertol junk last? How long will the M-1's last? The Jersey Arrows are gone! Most of the equipment today is built of stainless steel - which in therory should last forever. The old steel equipment didn't have that going for it but still lasted a long, long time.
San Diego had the right idea - build it cheap and simple, make it attactive to the rider, and the people will use it.
The M-4 cars of SEPTA are beautiful today. What will they be like in five years?
Jim K.
Chicago
Good question, but...
What if the problem isn't the technology, but the WORKMANSHIP? A new car built to D-type standards (mixed equipment? ) won't be worth very much if the components are poorly made and fit together.
David
[Maybe we should deep-six all of this newfangled stuff and go back to basics and build us some MP-54s or IC PrS coaches or BMT Standards or R10s or more R26s or something else that's going to last for 40+ years! I'm sure the blueprints are out there. But in all seriousness - there seems to be WAY TOO MANY problems with new equipment! Who's checking this stuff out anyway? ]
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???
Good Question. There is no simple answer. I can tell you that a large part of it is engineering. Cars like the C-3 are typically subject to change orders and field modifications due to improper or incomplete engineering. Additionally, Kawasaki has hired 3 former NYCT employees to grease the skids when things go wrong with production. These jobs are often payback for past favors but the fact is that these ex-employees are collecting MTA pensions while working for a company doing business (to the tune of Billions of $$$s) with the MTA. Conflicts and the potential for corruption abound.
As much as I'd LOVE to see MP-54's again (ok, maybe make that *will* see - My first encounter with 4137 will always be remembbered, even if nothing comes of it), the design would never be built today, though I'm sure with some minor changes, it could be. Among the problems with the PRR versions:
1) NO fuses, at all, in either the 11kv, or traction, circuits. A trtansformer failure, severe overload, or other fault that would draw high current would trip the PL relay - which would PREVENT the engineer from lowering the pantograph on the affected car - but automatically lower it AFTER power was removed. An overload in the traction circuits would hopefully trip the overload realy first - which is a simple reset. But it could operate the PL relay also - which would lower the pan.
2) Re application of power above 30 mph is a no no.
3) There are only 5 steps from start to full power - probbably rather jerky acceleration.
4) Completely non ADA compliant, and rather unsafe to pass between cars.
5) After sitting in the cab of 4137 (identical body), I get the impression they weren't very comfortable.
6) Slow.
On the positive side:
1) So simple, there's nothing to break.
2) Cooler pantograph than those but-ugly Favielys
3) Windows open.
4) Looks like a train, not an overgrown R-46.
5) Cooler whistle.
As for all the other equipment - I'm sure they share more or less the same flaws / advantages. Mind you, that list isn't major - all could be easily solved. Switch to a stainless body, add A/C and you have something that could last forever. I like the idea myself - today's equipment is too complicated - as evidenced by the spectacular failure of the LIRR M-1, M-3, and new diesel fleet. I'm sure the M-7 will be the same.
BTW - anyone know if they're going to dump the inboard bearing trucks for something that actually rides well, on the M-7?
The new stuff always has teething problems. But hey my dad once had to go back to Jamaica from Mieola because of a fuel leak
Probably Cher. Lahdy-dahdy-dee, lahdy-dahdy-dah.... Rim shot!!! Nice bass lick on that song, too.
Seriously, I agree. Older technology may be considered obsolete by some, but at least it worked. Someone forgot about KISS along the way - Keep It Simple, Stupid. New R-10s - that would be something.
The R-10s weren't simple, they were innovative and packed some new features
For their time - yes they were complex machines. But by today's standards, and compared to such techological marvels as the R110A and R110B, they are fairly simple. SMEE RULES!
Wayne
R10 - the first cars with flourescent lights.
Untrue! The R-7A was the first car with flourescent lights! Even if it was only #1575.
OK, you got me on a technicality! :o) What I meant was the R10 was the first fleet of cars to have flourescent light. You can count the R12 and R14 in with them if you wish to be absolutely correct, since they all arrived roughly the same time.
Wayne
One slight difference between the R-10s and their IRT cousins was the door engines. The R-10s had air-operated doors with the familiar "ttdddkk-ksssss" lock and air release sounds while the R-12s and R-14s had electric door engines. Oddly enough, I was under the false impression that because of their pneumatic doors, the R-10s weren't compatible with any other cars when in fact they were. Maybe it was because I always saw them only in solid trains. Taking that theory one step further, I was under another false impression that the R-12s and R-14s were modified in order to m. u. with other cars when in fact they weren't.
The R-10s began delivery in 1948 through 1949. The R-12s were delivered in 1948 but the R-14s did not arrive until late 49.
They were state-of-the-art for their time, that's for sure. Four motors per car, SMEE braking, fast compressors, the fastest doors in New York, speed to burn... The immortal R-10s were tailor-made for the A line.
Steve wants to know what significant and related events took place on the following dates.
1) October 30, 1954
2) December 1, 1955
A true rail historian will have no problem with that question.
(Steve also wants to know why you want to annoy so many people.)
"Steve wants to know what significant and related events took place on the following dates.
1) October 30, 1954
2) December 1, 1955
A true rail historian will have no problem with that question.
(Steve also wants to know why you want to annoy so many people.)"
This Rail Historian wants you know that describing New York City Subway events is the reason for Subtalk and is not annoying. I never insulted you or any other person. But you believe you have the right to insult me. If you don't like my call and you don't like the call of many others on Subtalk.
I don't have the answers to your quiz above at this time. I will look it up however the 1955 date is probably the closing of the 3rd Avenue EL in Manhatten from south of 149th Street to Chatham Squire. The 1954 date might be date the IND was connected to the Culver Line.
Your answer to #1 is correct.
The connection from the 60th St. tunnel to the IND Queens line opened on December 1, 1955. It marked the first time that IND and BMT equipment shared common trackage. (The R-1s which ran tests on the Sea Beach in 1931 don't count.)
What happened on March 5, 1944?
On March 5, 1944, the Universal Critic's former mother-in-law danced the hoochie-koochie at a disreputable establish underneath the New York and Brooklyn Bridge, which by that time had become known simply as the Brooklyn Bridge.
Now it seems to me something less significant also happened ... Oh, yes, those noisy elevated trains ceased running on the bridge above. Mother-in-law liked that, though. The rumble of those infernal things always threw her timing off.
This Rail Historian says to Steve, it its called 11th Street Cut. The tower in the bowels of the tunnel is a GRS original true NX panel.
Any message from the Rail Historian is from Rail Historian and not a third party. Have a good afternoon Steve on the 8th Avenue Express.
steve wrote that because to put it simple you're a DORK. there is no need to start off your posts by speaking of yourself by refering to that illustrious name of yours. steve also pointed out that you dont have your facts straight so why don't you do us all a favor and shut up, or at least change your name. latas
[ steve wrote that because to put it simple you're a DORK. there is no need to start off your posts by speaking of yourself by refering to that illustrious name of yours. ... so why don't you do us all a favor and shut up, or at least change your name. latas ]
I think that kind of attitude is unecessary. No one should be out to shut other people up around here, at least IMHO. (Which everyone is welcome to disgree with.)
I think perhaps Chirpy, myself, and possibly others, are most annoyed by "The Rail Historian" referring to himself in the third person.
I think that perhaps he doesn't realize how that sort of thing sounds in writing. I'm sure if I were to talk to Rail Historian in person, there would be a tone of voice that would make it come accross as I assume it is intended - in good humor.
But we are not speaking face-to-face, and I think speaking of yourself in the third person in writing comes off as pretenious and condescending, which no one appreciates. It's actually very rude, IMHO.
I'm forced to agree that it really doesn't sound friendly and it does sound conscedending.. Also the fact that you bring up facts randomly for no discernible discussion purpose. But I'm positive that this can be worked out.
Rich and Chirpy,
I wasn't going to respond to you post however, you guys are forcing me to. I have been a Rail Historian for over 30 years. Anyone can memorize dates of events on the New York City subway and this doesn't define a Rail Historian. I don't call others on Subtalk nasty names like DORK. Furthermore, I have the liberty to use any code or call name I want. Look at these people called, SubwayBuff, Slant R40, BMT Man, A Non A Mouse and many others. I'm no different. My real name is not known because you guys are very much strangers to me. In fact, it appears that both of you are new to Subtalk. What are your last names? See you guys don't want other strangers to know.
The postings for the Rail Historian appears to be 3rd person however, I write for myself without a ghost writer. I don't criticize anyone writing styles on Subtalk. You and others don't like mine. Read the posting of the "Universal Critic".
Guess what, I do make typos errors on Subtalk.
I bring up topics like Goetz and Serpico sometimes to tease and discover what others have to say. This is subway related. Did you know that Frank Serpico rode the subway a lot and rode it with Ramsey Clark to testify against Police corruption. This created the Napp Commission against police corruption. This is subway related subject.
I will continue to use the Rail Historian handle inspite of your comments. Pardon this quote that sums up my feelings said by the late Frank Sinatra, "I will not dignify that crap". However, I do apologize for using but it explains my feelings.
< Did you know that Frank Serpico rode the subway a lot and rode it with Ramsey Clark to testify against Police corruption. >
I'm no expert on Framk Serpico, but I'm a little more familair with Ramsey Clark.
Would it be a fair question as to whether their teaming up on "police corruption" reflected more an honest character or more a simple hatred of police.
Post-Serpico, we went so far down the road of guarding against police corruption that we wouldn't even allow beat cops to make arrests of low level drug dealers. At the height of this policy the murder rate in New York approximated 2,200.
We need to have honest police, but we mustn't lose sight of the reason we have police in the first place.
[ Furthermore, I have the liberty to use any code or call name I want. Look at these people called, SubwayBuff, Slant R40, BMT Man, A Non A Mouse and many others. ]
I had no complaint about your call name / handle. I think you're right and your argument is valid.
[ In fact, it appears that both of you are new to Subtalk. What are your last names? See you guys don't want other strangers to know. ]
I haven't been here as long as many, that is certainly true, but I've been around for at least 6 months I'd say. Maybe more - I'm not certain.
I go by Rich because it's short and casual. My full name is Rich Brome. I'm 21, live in Philadelphia, attend Drexel University, and work for ACE-INA (insurance) and WebLinc (Internet), both doing web application development. I'm perfectly happy to tell you who I am. I have nothing to hide, and I trust everyone here not use that information against me or judge me negatively because of it.
[ The postings for the Rail Historian appears to be 3rd person however, I write for myself without a ghost writer. ]
That's exactly what I find fault with. If you were relaying messages, for someone without Internet access for example, then 3rd person would be fine. But you're not, and given that, I find it pretentious and condescending, a sentiment that appears to be shared by many SubTalkers.
[ I don't criticize anyone writing styles on Subtalk. ]
That's because you don't find them to be rude and obnoxious, as I do yours.
[ You and others don't like mine. Read the posting of the "Universal Critic". ]
If I'm not mistaken, Universal Critic was mocking you.
While I'd like to stay out of this exchange, I'll add my 2 cents with an observation that rings true almost every time. An 'expert' in any field is one who is recognized and given this title by his/her colleagues, not him/herself. If you want to deal with a true 'expert' in any field, avoid those who give themselves this title. In almost every case, when the title is self-imposed, the 'expert' surely is not.
By the way, the Knapp Commission is how it's spelled. Are you saying Serpico testified to Clark on subway trains? Given the trains that ran in that period, that could have been an awfully iffy affair for anyone wanting to keep conversations private and still be heard in noisy subway cars.
Can we drop this subject, please? TRH obviously thinks his style is cute or funny. Some of us obviously beg to differ. Maybe he likes to sound like Julius Caesar in his travelogue (sp?) about France. Maybe there is some other explanation why he is so wedded to a style that offends so many of us. Whatever the reason, the solution is simple: if he insists on exercising his right to write in the third person, we can exercise our right to stop reading his posts. Let's cut out the bitching and name calling and move on.
[if he insists on exercising his right to write in the third person, we can exercise our right to stop reading his posts. Let's cut out the bitching and name calling and move on.]
I'm getting into this thread at the end because (as I've said before) just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it, i.e. I haven't been reading the other posts.
There are some here that love a good debate ... that's fine for serious issues that directly relate to transit. So when guys like Larry post something I almost always read it.
I'm a rail buff but by no means an expert, so some times the nit pickers attach my posts, but most times I get a thoughtful correction or additional input which I appreciate because it's educational and that's what this site has done for me EDUCATE.
My last point relates to the Rail Historian saying that he doesn't know any of us personally. Well neither did I a year or so ago.
Now I've made at least two dozen SubTalk friends who I've met at various events face to face. To a man/woman I'ld be happy to have them over to the house for dinner !
So if you don't ENJOY this site or only get pleasure throwing rocks, then maybe you should sign off ?
Mr t__:^) ... smilie so you'll take this in a positive way.
Actually, I don't believe that I insulted you, either intentionally or otherwise. I did ask why you felt the need to refer to yourself in the 3rd person as I find it pretintious. I also asked why in the face of so many people expressing similar annoyance, you persist in doing so.
On the other hand, you do purport to be a rail historian. In the post that I first responded to, you mentioned that a former mayor once operated a subway train. I did not dispute that but did point out that this was by no means unique in NY history. Again, not to offend but to add to the discussion. You have set yourself up for criticism by purporting to be a rail historian when it seems that you have little more than some rudimentary information.
BTW - to answer my own question. Both dates marked the opening of connections between the BMT and IND:
October 30, 1954 was the date that the connection between Church and Ditmas Avenues on the then 'D' line.
December 1, 1995 marked the opening of the 11th St. cut linking the BMT & IND between the 60th St. tunnel and the Queens Blvd. lines.
For the sake of completeness I should have also added November 26, 1967, the date that the Christie Street onnection opened.
You accidentally wrote 1995!!! What about the 1956 connection between the until then BMT Liberty Avenue El and the IND Pitkin Avenue Subway via the brand new Grant Avenue station and the subsequent Rockaway connection. BTW, why did the original 1956-58 service to Far Rock run out to Beach 25 and not all the way to Mott?
The 1955 60th Street tunnel connection (11th St. cut) was qualitatively different from either the Culver or Fulton connections in that it was the first example of actual interdivisional running.
The Culver and Fulton connections completely severed pieces of the BMT and grafted them to the IND. It always puzzled me why a switch was not maintained at Ditmas Avenue between BMT and IND for emergency use--the steelwork was installed but never used.
Jaman: You have touched upon an interesting point. The original LIRR Far Rockaway Terminal was just to the east of the present day IND Far Rockaway Terminal. The stationhouse and tracks were on the surface at first but during the grade crossing elimination in 1941 the tracks were actually on an ascending ramp (going from east to west) to rise to the elevated level. When the TA took over operation they actually cut out a steel section of the elevated ramp and built a new terminal where the present day IND station now stands. While this was going on it was necessary for subway trains to terminate at Beach 25 St. The TA started serving Wavecrest on 6/28/56 but was not extended to Far Rockaway until 1/16/58.
There is a picture on p59 of "Change Trains at Ozone Park" that shows an LIRR trains on the el structure and a subway train on another el structure separated by about 50 feet of open space where there had once been a continuous line.
To say that this was a ludicrious situation would be an understatement. I don't know what municipal jealousies led to the decision but it would have far more sense to have a joint station served by both lines.
The LIRR moved their terminal to the present sight on February 21,1958 and while it is not too far away it is not a convient transfer point or a safe one at night.
I don't know the truth of this next statement but maybe some of the crew familiar with legal matters will. I heard that there was a law that prohibited the NYC BOT from operating outside NYC limits and that is why this was done.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[On the TA operating outside NYC limits and the two Far Rockaway Stations ]
I don't see why the LIRR and TA Far Rockaway stations were physically separated, but since I believe they're both inside the City, I don't believe any law concerning TA operations outside the City would apply.
I was told decades ago by (IIRC) Martin Schachne, the knowledgable railfan and long-time TA employee, that the TA was forbidden to operate outside the City limits, but I've never located legal papers explicitly stating this.
The TA was set up as a state agency specifically to insulate the subway system and the fare from the perennial political arguments and local battles that existed at least from the days of "Red Mike" Hylan.
However, since its mandate was to acquire the properties of the New York City Board of Transporation, its fate and operations were still tied intimately to the City. For example, the City Board of Estimate had to be notified and pass on certain things that the NYCTA might want to do. Also, if any TA property became surplus, it was to pass to the City.
So it can be reasonably surmised that this close association between the TA and the City required that a strict line be drawn on where the TA could operate.
Another thought that occurs to me is that the State did not want the TA to compete with the various companies that provided service outside the City, or between the City and the Suburbs. This included the LIRR (owned by the PRR), New York Central, and a myriad of bus operators.
The mention of the bus operators leads me to another fact that I believe is probably unknown to most people (professional or railfan) these days:
I was also told that the State wanted the City to divest itself of its surface lines, which in 1953 consisted primarily of the former trolley and bus lines of the BMT that were acquired at Unification. IOW, all the bus lines would now be run by private companies and the TA would run the subways only.
The purpose of this divesiture was to reintroduce some competition in New York City transit and prevent the TA from becoming the completely insular bureaucracy many believe it became.
Not only was this not done, but with the sudden City takeover of New York City Omnibus, Fifth Avenue Coach, and Surface Transit in Manhattan and the Bronx, the opposite was accomplished.
This I can trace to law:
The authority, as soon as practicable and not later than July first, nineteen hundred fifty-five, shall prepare a plan for the sale and transfer of omnibus facilities under its jurisdiction to private ownership. -- Public Authorities Law, Title 15, Section 1806, paragraph 1 (Chapter 200, Laws of 1953)
Now whatever do you suppose happened to that law?
Does that mean it's illegal for NYCT buses to run to Green Acres, which is in Nassau County, as they currently do? I guess not.
Wayne
Would it also be illegal for the X17(?) and X31 to run via the NJ Turnpike to Manhattan? When a TA bus terminates at the Bronx/Westchester border, does it make sure that not a single wheel of that bus enters Westchester?
I've heard the TA got some kind of special dispensation to run to Green Acres, since it is just over the border in Nassau County and is a very popular shopping destination for folks in S.E. Queens.
I mean, what would they do otherwise, walk from the border?
Remember that Nassau buses are now run by an MTA agency, LI Bus. If it were still a private operator, they might have demanded that the private operator be allowed to run the buses to the Mall.
As I said in my post, I haven't found the legal cite for TA not operating outside NYC.
It's been a while since I read any of the law on the TA; but, as I recall, the TA is a NYC agency -- not a state agency, like the MTA. More to the point, a likely place to find something saying that it cannot operate outside the City would be in whatever statute or corporate charter specifies the TAs powers. It would not surprise me to learn that there is no such express prohibition, merely a statement granting it the power to do X, Y, and Z "within the City of New York." If so, doing X, Y, or Z outside the City of New York would be what lawyers call "ultra vires." In plain English, beyond its powers.
The NYCTA is a unit of the MTA. The MTA is an umbrella agency that encompasses the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (MTA Bridges and Tunnels, TBTA); Metro-Suburban Bus Authority (MTA Long Island Bus, MSBA); Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority (MTA Staten Island Railway, SIR, SIRT, and SIRTOA); Long Island Railroad (MTA Long Island Railroad, LIRR); Metro-North Commuter Railroad (MTA Metro-North Railroad, MNCR); Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority, (MaBSTOA); New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA) Which have now been split into 2 seperate entities, MTA New York City Bus (MaBSTOA and the surface operations of the TA) and MTA New York City Subway. ALl the MTA names are paper only, as they are still officially tha agencies and authorities.
-Hank
As you point out, each of these entities retain its separate existence. When I researched the laws covering the TA some years ago, they provided that the TA was a city agency. As we all know, the MTA is a state agency. The stautes also made the TA a subsidiary of the MTA. Thus, when you get hit by a bus, last time I checked, you follow a procedure similar to the procedure for suing the city rather than suing in the Court of Claims. Of course, it has been a number of years since I looked all this up. Maybe it's been changed. Certainly, the MTA's PR conceals the legalities, which are not matters of general interest.
While the state exercises control over the TA (the Governor's apointees control the MTA board), for historic reasons the TA is considered a city agency. This has several consequences, most bad for the city.
1) Government data counts TA (and CUNY) workers as "local government" employees, while it count's LIRR, MetroNorth and NJT (and Rugters and SUNY) employees as "state government" employees. That's one reason conservatives can cite that data to claim that NYC has big government, and the rest of the state does not (the opposite is actually true).
2) TA workers are required to live in the city.
3) The state requires the City to contribute local tax dollars to the TA (and MetroNorth and the LIRR). Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and the rest contribute nothing to the commuter railroads -- the state contributes for them, using money collected, in part, in the city. However, I believe the suburban counties contribute to their bus services.
Just a few more of the cazillion little ripoffs the morons of NYC get screwed by.
< Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and the rest contribute nothing to the commuter railroads -- the state contributes for them, using money collected, in part, in the city. However, I believe the suburban counties contribute to their bus services. >
That's ridiculous! The localities like Nassau and Suffolk contribute heavily to the MTA, plus we have the same MTA taxes (like utility and sales tax increments) as the City, but get much less for it.
A City resident's MTA taxes buy a near universal subway and bus system by which you can reach virtually every corner of the City on a reasonable schedules for a low fare.
My MTA taxes effectively buy me a high-priced LIRR ride which takes me to the City. Period. Almost any place else I need to go, I drive or stay home.
Larry, if you're going to relentlessly suburb bash, at least avoid such obvious errors.
Yes, in addition to City of New York payments to the MTA, there is a regional MTA tax that City AND suburban residents and businesses have to pay. One could argue that since more city residents take advantage of mass transit, the suburban share of regional tax is spread among fewer riders, allowing a higher subsidy per rider.
Just so you don't think I'm an anti-suburb zealot, I used exactly that argument at City Planning when we were scrutinizing the MTA and Port Authority budgets. Otherwise, the Mayor would probably be yelling about the MTA as much as he is the Port Authority.
BTW, when you look at all the cars City Residents don't own, compared with the national average, its' clear that mass transit allows a substantial reduction in the cost of living. In the NY suburbs, however, auto ownership is at the national average despite the millions riding the LIRR, MetroNorth, NJT and express buses. When you have than much money, I guess, why not have one car per driver?
< When you [subrubanites] have than much money, I guess, why not have one car per driver?
How much money do you think suburbanites actually have? What do you think the comparative income of working people in Nassau, Suffolk, Manhattan is, for example?
(What do you think the comparative income of people working in Manhattan, Nassau, and Suffolk is?). Ah, but Manhattan is not New York City -- except in funding formulas. Manhattan has the highest per capita income in the country. Income in the rest of the city, added together, is slightly below the national average; income in the suburbs, added together, is substantially higher.
[ OK. Compare the entire City (including the Bronx, one of the poorest counties in income in the state) to Nassau or Suffolk ]
How much higher is "substantially" higher.
I'd have to be in the office for hard #s, but off the top of my head I believe per capita income is $24,000 in the U.S., $22,000 in the outer boroughs, $35,000 in the suburbs --- and $69,000 (#1 county in the U.S.) in Manhattan. You can go to the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis website for actual 1997 figures. They have a table of the counties with the 100 highest per capita incomes in the U.S. Most of NY's suburban counties make the list (but not the outer boroughs or Hudson County NJ).
[3) The state requires the City to contribute local tax dollars to the TA (and MetroNorth and the LIRR). Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and the rest contribute nothing to the commuter railroads -- the state contributes for them, using money collected, in part, in the city.
However, I believe the suburban counties contribute to their bus services. ]
Dear Larry, I think Paul & I have caught you this time. Are you doing this just to see if we're paying attention, or did we realy get 'ya ?
Do you remember the recent NewsDay article about Nassau County Exec. Tom Golotta needing to loan money from the MTA to pay for his portion of the cost of the new dual-mode/double decker LIRR train sets ?
And yes Nassau County does provide a major portion of the money for the LI Bus Co (that's why they exhibit some indepandance regarding things the TA thinks that they follow their lead on automatically).
Mr t__:^)
Let me nit pick just a little: The NYC subway/bus system no longer has any AUTHORITY, in their name that is. Officially they're NYCT.
Mr t__:^)
I'll have to nitpick back at ya, Thurston.
It's still NYCTA. NYCT is a "friendly" name, without legal significance. The TA still has to contract as "New York City Transit Authority."
The correspondence I (our company) receives from 130 Livingston Plaza says "New York City Transit" period ... I'm looking at one that is over a year old, includes the stylized MTA logo and Larry Reuter's name on it as the Pres. Looks pritty official to me.
Mr t__:^)
The MTA calls names such as New York City Transit, Station Island Railway, etc. "popular" names. In business we would call these names "DBAs"--"Doing Business As." It's like the trucks say "FedEx" but you're dealing with the Federal Express Company.
From The MTA Website:
New York City Transit (NYCT)
Staten Island Railway (SIR)
Long Island Rail Road (LIRR)
Metro-North Railroad (MNR)
Bridges and Tunnels (B&T)
In 1993 the MTA board approved a new service identity program for the MTA family of agencies. It uses the above popular names to make clear to our customers that the various MTA affiliates and subsidiaries constitute an integrated regional transportation network. However, for all procurement documents and official transactions, the agencies retain their legal names: New York City Transit Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, the Long Island Rail Road Company, Metro-North Commuter Railroad Company and Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority.
The emphasis is mine.
Actually, Federal Express Corp. did in fact change its legal name to FedEx® a few years ago.
The Seashore Trolley Museum is also a dba; our legal name is the New England Electric Railway Historical Society, Inc.
Hmmm....
FedEx's web site copyrights still say:
© 1995-1999. Federal Express Corporation.
Does the right hand not know what the left is doing?
That wouldn't be unusual!
Other dba's are interesting. Look at the license info on sidewalk food vendors in midtown. You might see something like, "Mustapha al-Farouk Mid-east Provisions" dba "Bernie's Kosher Hot Dog Stand"
Joe's Alcohol, d/b/a Joe's Tavern and Restaurant.
That's basically it.
-Hank
What is interesting here is that apparently NYC started going this way, i.e. in the 30's the La Guardia admin. created four bus zones in Queens for "private" companies to replace the trolley lines, incl. BRT/Brooklyn City RR.
Triboro, Green, Jamnaica and Queens Surface (Queens & Steinway) remain today. But North Shore Bus & Fifth Ave Coach routes went to NYCT when they folded. Someone also posted here that the city had the opportunity to take over what is now MaBSTOA but they declined.
Mr t__:^)
We can argue FACO's (Fifth Ave Coach) thinking when it faced down the City over fare and labor issues, but FACO did not fold, per se, it was seized.
Paul, I didn't know that, thanks for the additional detail !
I just bought a book that enlighted me about Brooklyn City RR vs. BRT.
Apparently BCRR and Brooklyn Queens & Suburban RxR continued to operate trolley lines in Queens for some time after BRT became BMT and went it's own way.
Question: These names seem to run togather and are all so similar,
who was Brooklyn & Queens Transit Co, i.e. the owner of PCC 1001. I thought they became part of BRT, but now I'm getting more confused as I start reading this book by Vincent F. Seyfried (50's vintage).
Mr t__:^)
What was the book? If it's Seyfried book on BRT trolley lines in Queens County, it's bound to be good.
When the BRT went bankrupt after the Malbone St. wreck, it revived some of the companies which had been absorbed into the BRT. Most prominent of these was the Brooklyn City RR, which resumed operating (and purchasing) trolleys and trolley lines on its own account. This was more than a paper breakup--people had to pay two fares where lines of one company met lines of another where both lines had previously been BRT.
This continued even after the BRT became the BMT in 1923. Five years later, in 1928, all (AFAIK) the former BRT, BCRR, etc. trolleys were operated by the B&QT, which became the BMT's trolley operator.
I know it's more than a little confusing and I've never explored all the little permutations, but though everything ended up under the BMT banner (the 1936 PCC brochure said "BMT Lines Presents Modern Streetcars"--not B&QT), the BMT itself never technically operated anything. The rapid transit part of the BMT was operated by the New York Rapid Transit Corporation. The trolleys were B&QT.
Earlier, under the BRT, the subways were operated by the New York Municipal Railway Corp., the elevateds by the New York Consolidated RR, or not much earlier by other operating companies, such as the Brooklyn Heights Railroad, etc.
Interestingly, the BMT name long survived long after the BMT. Brooklyn bus transfers said "BMT Bus Division" on at least some routes into the '60s.
[What was the book? If it's Seyfried book on BRT trolley lines in Queens County, it's bound to be good.]
That's the one. A SubTalker said Shoreline @ Branford might have a couple copies of the re-issue 50's publ. left. I found one, but don't know if it was their last copy.
P.S. Paul, thanks for the addl. insite on BRT/BCRR/B-Q&S vs. B&QT.
Mr t__:^)
Steve wants to know what significant and related subway events took place on the following dates.
1) October 30, 1954
2) December 1, 1955
A true rail historian will have no problem with that question.
(Steve also wants to know why you want to annoy so many people.)
If you mean annoy people via his/her talking in the third person, I think it kind of *kitschy*.
It irritated the hell outta me with Bob "It's takes a lot of courage to talk about impotence" Dole.
If s/he provided a name at least but still wanted to use the third person as a handle like I do or Wayne-Mr. Slant40, I don't think that's so bad.
You are not speaking in the 3rd person. Of course the person posting as the Rail Historian might not be either. He may just be relaying messages for the real Rail Historian. As for 'annoying', we all have our own levels of tollerance, I suppose.
You mean you can't figure out who Rail Historian is?
I think it's pretty obvious, but I'm not going to blow
anyone's cover if that's how they want to play it.
I dunno steve, but after reading a few of his posted, I understand where you're comming from. Geeze, even *I* am not that annoying :)
Today I saw a news report about a bridge in West Philly.
The problem is that the bridge is falling apart(sound
familiar?).
Why are SEPTA and Amtrak involved? The bridge carries
unused trolley tracks(along 40th Street) over Amtrak's
Keystone line and SEPTA's R5 Downingtown line(really it's
all Amtrak property).
Residents of the area(which is near Girard Avenue-former
home of the 15 trolley) want the bridge fixed because of
holes big enough for one to put a foot through. They're
worried that if something isn't done, a tragedy could
occur.
The city says it'l fix the bridge, but SEPTA needs to take
rsponsibility because of the tracks. SEPTA says Amtrak
should take care of the bridge(though I can't imagine
why).
The city's approach, we'll patch it up and begin the real repairs in 2 years. This has Manny B written all over it(not because there are tracks involved:))
This is one of those classic bureaucratic nightmares. Here are the facts:
The trolley tracks on 40th Street are part of the connection between Girard Ave and the subway-surface system. They get used by special moves and pull-ins and pull-outs when the Holiday Trolley is operating. Otherwise, they are little used.
The bridge was built by the Penna RR. The Pennsy's Main Line to Harrisburg crosses under the street here. Way back when the RR's wanted to grade separate for safety (and cities were encouraging the RR's to get out of their streets), the RR's had lots of money and built many bridges like this one. The city and RR would then enter into agreements on bridge ownership, maintenance, etc. It was often easiest for the RR to build, own and maintain the bridge.
Now travel 40 years into the future. The RR's are bankrupt. They still own these bridges. They defer maintenance since, if the bridge falls apart, usually the effect on RR operations will be minimal (unless the bridge falls on the tracks, in which case the RR clears off the wreckage and has one fewer bridge to worry about). The RR goes to the local Public Utility Commission and asks that the responsibility for these bridges be placed on the local government. The government, not much better off financially, doesn't want the bridges either. Now you have the classic "orphan bridge". Phila is loaded with them.
When Conrail and Amtrak came along, the first thing they did was to deny old agreements which placed such bridges on their maintenance lists. They were usually successful in doing this as the feds were trying to make these RR's financially viable and the removal of roadway bridge responsibility, where costs were high and there was next to no chance of revenue, helped greatly here. The new RR's believed (and often were right) that, if they ignored these bridges, the local populance, which would assume that the city owned the bridge, would pressure the city to fix it. Politicians would fight for this also to win votes.
Not a pretty story, is it?
Quick question.
Are the Penna RR tracks the ones now owned by Amtrak, or are they the trolley tracks? In other words, did the Penna RR run tracks accoss the bridge they built/owned/maintained, or did the RR build the bridge across the mainline for the city to use?
I believe they are the current Amtrak lines to Harrisburg. The trolley tracks on the bridge belong to SEPTA.
The 40th Street bridge is at the west end of the extremity of Zoo junction. Tracks which connected directly between the Main Line and the Northeast Corridor toward New York split/join here (depending on which way you're going). This was used by many passenger trains between NYC and Chicago which bypassed 30th Street Station. It is little used today, mainly by Amtrak maintenance and deadhead moves.
I believe PRR built the bridge as part of its program to grade separate the busier lines. Phila itself mandated much of this separation, which is noticable to this day in the small number of grade crossings of busy lines. The trolley tracks on the bridge are SEPTA's.
Thanks; I appreciate the clarification. It is indeed an interesting subject. :-)
Brandon
While researching an answer to Karl's question I came accross some information about the IRT in World War II that some might find interesting. It is from the Cunningham/DeHart History of the IRT.
"Most out of service el cars were scrapped for metal for the war effort.90 were sold to Oakland CA to transport Navy Yard workers. In early 1943 the last two Manhattan steam locomotives were scrapped on February 9.(#137 and 297)The 2 Avenue El closed from Queensboro Plaza to Chatham Square on 6/12/42. 200 people rode the last train that left South Ferry at 941PM.The el yielded 29,400 tons of scrap steel.
On February 26,1944 a practicing Naval battery's anti-aircraft fire struck the 59 Street Powerhouse.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Speaking of the war effort, is it true that most of the old New York Railways streetcar trackage in Manhattan was ripped out for that purpose? All of those streetcar lines ended operation in 1936.
Steve: I really couldn't say but they did send the Green Hornet off too war and she never came back.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm told that the MTA cubicle jockeys just made the elevator operator at 181st take down all the pictures that were plastered in the elevator, mostly of pets like dogs and cats.
The elevator operator is something of a local legend and had decorated the elevator and cleaned it himself. The MTA, in a relentless push for standardization (note how quickly old signs have disappeared of late) made him take down all the pics.
Hey, you try going up and down for 8 hours in a windowless elevator with nothing to look at but occasionally sour faces. I'd go crazy. They even let convicts decorate their prison cells, but not MTA elevator operators.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's at 190 Street-Overlook Terrace on the IND. They were put back. According to the newspaper clipping now posted there, some old geezers didn't like the pictures there and asked the MTA to take them down. It was written in a local paper (it also got into the Times) and they were very critical those idiots that wanted the pictures down.
Glad to see sanity prevails.
Right. We've got two decorated elevators up here in Washington Heights. First there was the 181 St. guy who's done up his car in jazz legends theme with some appropriate holiday accents as required. Then came the 190 St. guy who chose the local pet theme.
I've been riding buses lately, but I'll try to take a recon mission to see what each is up to.
--Mike
That's a little much. What in the world attracted to the TA to pick on this guy anyway. Did someone complain?
Read my response to his message for the info, I was there last June
Ah, the all-important "geezer" factor.
Hey, I wasn't insulting old people, if this people were in their 20s or 40s or teens I would have used a different word but it would have been no more or less insulting. I didn't want to insult others.
I didn't take any insult. I thought it was funny.
I'm working on geezerdom, myself. Pretty soon I'll be telling stories about how gas was 29 cents a gallon, they washed your windshield, gve you free dishes, and said "thank you" too.
I'll call young people "sonny" and "young whippersnapper." You'll see.
OK, sonny? ;-)
Free dishes at gas stations? Last summer I got a free glass at a Sunoco station. Wasn't 29 cents a gallon, though.
Free dishes at gas stations, free towels in your box of laundry detergent (real nice ones in Oxydol or Dash, too), Captain Marvel decoder rings in your Cracker Jack, and S&H green stamps (or Triple-S blue, Plaid, or Gold Bond) with everything everywhere. And Mister Ed the Talking Horse on TV (right after The Lone Ranger). The good old days!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But A/C hadn't been invented yet -- except in movie theaters.
Sure it had - it just wasn't very common. My parents installed central air in our house in the late '50s so that Mother wouldn't have to have her pianos tuned every month during the summer (she performed for many years and when she wasn't travelling to a concert or performing she was rehearsing, and she couldn't stand a piano that was even slightly out of tune - still can't). For them, it was a business decision as much as one of personal comfort, but they put it in as soon as my father was sure it would be reliable enough to justify the investment. I spent my summers with my grandparents on the farm, however, so I didn't ever really benefit from it myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Were you also the only kid in town with a color TV?
No, my parents did not get one until 1973. We didn't watch much - still don't. They still have that set, plus the original round-screen black-and-white they bought in 1954. I'll confess to having more modern units - a 20" in our bedroom and a new 27" set in the living room in our New Jersey house and a 20" set in our North Carolina house. But they mainly see use for the news, the History Channel, train/trolley videos, and the occasional Braves game.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the good old days. R-10s on the A, among other things, just to stay on topic. I remember the glasses and steak knives and other giveaway items at gas stations. There was a Tulsa station on Rt. 23 in Jersey which sold regular at 29.9 cents per gallon in 1967. Got a rubber ball once in a box of Tide and took to show-and-tell in kindergarten. Dennis the Menace was also on Sundays. Hi, Mr. Wilson!
FEI, I am the person a.k.a. 'Intentionally Left Blank'
-Hank
I figured as much when your name suddenly disappeared from the list:)
It's still there, it depends on where I'm posting from. I don't want to leave a cookie with my name on it on a shared computer.
-Hank
I was looking through the Illustrated Subway Car Roster here at www.nycsubway.org and came across a couple interesting shots. Both were of R40 4200 in Coney Island Yard. One was taken (according to the caption date) in 5/71 and the front end is wrecked massively. The other shot (I took) in 8/79, there's 4200 again with massive front end collision damage.
Yet the damge in the two photos, eight years apart, looks different.
Was 4200 in TWO major wrecks? Sheesh....
They removed some of #4200's stainless steel skin to graft onto the busted nose and "A" end of R40M #4501, who blackened her left eye, ruined her nice new sign and broke her bonnet while pushing R16 #6304 into a curtain wall on May 20, 1970 just outside of Roosevelt Avenue.
Wayne
In the NY Post Friday August 6, page 4, The TA has promoted the head of a scandal-scarred unit - who investigators charge was asleep at the switch while employees skipped out of work early - as a powerful new Vice President. Chief Electrical Officer Gerald Provenzano will be the new VP overseeing the new Department of Telecommunications and Information which includes operating the public-address system serving riders. The promotion takes place on Wednesday September 1.
After reading the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Im sure a nice salary raise comes with the new position. Why should we be surprised. Its the same story.... Promote incompetance and the problem in that dept. goes away.
Last week I might have disagreed but I still can not believe what I heard yesterday. I was one of 18 people who recently interviewed for a job. The promotion would have meant 10% but it was not really where I wanted to be, but I interviewed anyway.
I didn't get the job! Neither did any of the other 17 who interviewed. The job went to one of the 3 interviewers. Does this sound like a conflict of interest to anyone else?
[ I didn't get the job! Neither did any of the other 17 who interviewed.
The job went to one of the 3 interviewers. Does this sound like a
conflict of interest to anyone else? ]
What conflict? Seriously, though, It's one thing to give out promotions based on who you know, favors, etc.
It's another to waste a dozen and a half people's time and energy for a promotion they can't possibly get.
Yes I agree, but they have to go through the motions of the interview. Then they can say we really didnt find anyone with just the "right qualifications" we were looking for. Its a great excuse to use.
This getting off-topic, but symphony orchestras used to do that, too. A retiring musician would hand-pick a student to succeed him, but auditions would be held anyway, with everyone on the inside knowing the outcome already.
Then you could say, I've heard of going through the movements, but this is ridiculous.
But as a public agency, I thought civil service rules were supposed to apply here to prevent forms or favortism/nepotism. At least, that's what the good government people said back in the 1930s when the patronage system was pushed aside in favor of the civil service form of government.
And, of course, I also believe in the tooth fairy...
Management is NOT civil service.
Still off-topic, but..
You don't see that sort of thing anymore nowadays. Orchestra auditions are handled pretty fairly; closed auditions are a thing of the past. One thing is certain: it's more competitive than it's ever been. Vic Firth of the Boston Symphony says that when he auditioned in 1952, he was selected from 12 candidates. Today, you'd have several hundred people show up.
Why are you surprised? You work for them. You should know the nature of those cynical, machiavelian, megolomaniacal, egotistical, ingrates by now.
Like I said, Satan runs the TA.
Maybe this guy was promoted to the level of incompetence to begin with. Or perhaps he had the right connections...
Steve B, I'll bet he probably had both things going for him...I am going to finish the discussion on this topic and look for others..Thanks for the feedback..
Im sure a nice salary raise comes with the new position. Why should we be surprised. Its the same story.... Promote incompetance and the problem in that dept. goes away.
I have an article for you in today's Brooklyn Daily Eagle about Bernard Nadrich a 33 year employee with the original Nathan's. His wife also worked for Nathan's at their corporate offices on Long Island (where?).
They are Flatbushites retiring down to Port St. Lucie Florida.
Next time we get together I'll bring a copy of two with me.
Doug aka BMTman
David
Thank you for the updated pictures on the 3 line. I was going to ask if anybody venture out there recently to take pictures. The pictures on the line by line version was old. I also notice that in one pictures, you got a part of my block. :):) I have pics that I have taken in front of my house and from inside of my house. These pics consist of 3 and L crossing each other at the same time... I even got a pic of a R62a 5 train heading to Utica to begin it evening rush hour run......... If you would like to post them along with yours just email me at the above address........ Once again thanks.
3 Train: 7 Ave. Express and Eastern Pkwy/Livonia Av Local
3TM
Hey, does anyone know why there is no transfer in East New York between the 3 train and the L train? I heard it was because someone stole the staircase connecting the two. Is vthere any truth to that?
As far as I know, there is no truth to that. I do not think there was ever a free passenger transfer between the 3 and L.........
As far as I know there was NEVER any free transfer between the two lines. Part of that may have been due to the small amount of riders who needed to make transfers to/from the L or the 3. Since the L goes into Manhattan (along 14th St.) alot of L train riders see no point in transfering to the #3 particularly if their destination is the city; ditto for New Lots riders.
And don't forget, all this talk of transfering at Livonia Ave. is only due to the Willy B. closure and the extra loads it is causing on the Canarsie line.
Doug aka BMTman
If you had your saya nd had one wish, what improvements would you like to see or additions made to the R-32 fleet... Remember, the Genie has granted you only one wish......
Easy. Reverse the F/S modifications!
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
Given a choice between restoring the good old route and destination signs on the bulkheads and bringing back those trademark blue doors, I would go with the former.
Of course my wish would be to reverse the field shunt mods, but since I know that can't be done due to current TA policy (and it would make the cars incompatible with others in the fleet; they'd get too close to their leaders and too far from their followers), I'll go with:
Easy to Read
Route & Destination
Signs!
Observation: So far, everyone pretty much has indicated that, with the exception of A/C, we all want them to go back to the way they were before GOH!
My alternate wish, in lieu of field shunting, however, would be some nice, comfy padded seats.
Well, I enjoy the air-conditioning units they recieved after GOH. Otherwise, I agree. I liked those blue doors.
Who needs padded seats? The seats on the R-32 (and R-38, R-42, and Redbirds) are by far the most comfortable in the system.
Padded seats would be a wonderful addition, I sometimes pay $1.50 to take the express bus just to get them. R-42 seats are pretty uncomfortable, they're lower than the others. The most comfortable modern seats are the ones on the R-44-68 cars. The worst are on either the 110A or the 40.
Put them back on the Manhattan Bridge/Bway Express
I think that (this is all one request) the ribbing should be removed on the sides, except for a section in the middle, The small sectioned windows should be replaced with larger european style "picture" windows, the side signs should be changed to be much wider and about 1/3 as tall, the permanently-coupled end should get a narrower storm door opening, with a notch for the handle, and most importantly, the whole front should be replaced with a sleek, elegant wedge design, with a _really big_ end sign route designation.
Then they'd be almost perfect.
In other words, you'd like to see them reincarnated as slant R-40s.
2 things:
Bring back those bluish-teal-aqua seats. The dark grey ones are kinda bland.
Get rid of those tiny digital route indicaters. Bring bacl the old manual, hand cranked ones. There were infinatly more readable.
I'd like to see a 800 car "addition" to the R-32 fleet :)
Hmmm, and which cars would you like to see those 800 replace?
THE R-68s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I LIKE the R-68's!!!
They suck, the R-68A is much better. Just like the R-46 is better that the R-44.
The worst car in the entire subway is:
R-33 Single
I hope they're all put into one corner of the yard one night and mysteriously catch fire.
The only thing wrong with the R68 is that the operators don't like their sluggish performance. No reason to scrap hundreds of cars that are only 12 years old.
Your "handle is under construction". What does that mean? Why don't you call yourself The Rail Historian like me? Just trying to help.
It means I haven't decided on a name yet.
With all due respect, let me put it this way: if the R-68s were faster, with field shunting restored, and turned around so that the half cab faced outward thereby offering a nice railfan view, I just might be swayed.
Maybe I should have said the R-44s instead. The R-46s are OK.
Heh, but what would we call "Le S@&tcan" then? :)
AND THE R44s!!!
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
YES YES YES (aside from going FORWARD to legible signage, FS, and A/C) another many hundred would be super. And to answer the other--not replace Augment. More servicable cars more trains in service. Besides, given the record so far just cloning them would be money better spent.
Too bad Budd is no longer in business.
If they were, maybe they could've overhauled the Almond Joys and we'd still have them.
Why does the average railfan so resistant to change?
I had my brain deactivated when I posted the above message ignore it and read this instead:
Why IS the average railfan so resistant to change?
I don't know what other people would say, but new usually means "not as good".
Not necessarily subway cars, but anything.
When the M-4's first arrived in Philadelphia, they always had brake, door or sign problems. The Almond Joys were still running then and even though you'd find cars with doors that won't open, at least they never overshot platforms.
Today's technology is a great thing. But when you compare it to what was modern 40 years ago, you see that with today's innovations there's always more stuff that can go wrong and it'll usually hold you up longer because it takes loger to fix.
But those M-4 problems have been fixed, right? If nobody ever tries to innovate, the world will go nowhere. Glitches on startup are just the small price to pay for progress. With better offsite testing, they wouldn't be as common.
I admit, I've only had one or two problems in riding them
in about four months. They've been worked and hopefully by the time the Almond Joys are really gone, we'll
have a quality feet of railcars ready to move the masses-for another 40 years.
Because we treasure that which pleases us, and we hate to lose it. To wit, the 1990 loss of perfectly good R10s was an absolutely VILE act. Ditto for the D-Types in 1964 and Multi-Sectionals in 1961. The R30s should have received a better overhaul than they did. I would prefer to see the R38s and R40s live on well into their dotage (as long as they are maintained properly) than to see them go off to scrap while still usable. Some of us do warm up to the new (witness the large number of R46 fans out there), but for many of us it is slow progress. I still haven't become fond of the R68s. The R68As - I like them ONLY if they have black floors. And losing the railfan window is a very sore blow to many of us. The R142 will have to be a very special car to sell me on it. Give me a Redbird any day, the older and mungier the better.
Wayne
What makes the pending demise of the Redbirds bad is if you go by the listings of reliability of service and maintenance, the all-Redbird No. 7 line is always at or near the top. But due to rusting (probably exaserbated by the repeated anti-graffiti washes since the late 70s) and in part to the lack of AC on the R-33 singles, those trains will be only a memory in a few years. And some of the early reports on the R-142's wiring problems haven't been encouraging.
Hey, I wasn't happy when the Giants got rid of Phil Simms after the 1993 season because they decided his cost outweighed his usefulness. Hopefully, the R-142s won't be to the MTA what the recent run of QBs has been to the Giants.
The anti graffiti wash didn't last for too long. The problem was the disposal of the acid into the sewer system. That is why the CIYD car wash is vastly over-engineered. Graffiti is removed by hand the old fashioned way: with elbow grease, even on the exterior.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Wrong answer - about the carwash that is. Every NYCT carwash facility that I know about has a neutralizer system to treat the run-off before it goes where-ever. No untreated wash water is pumped into the NYC sewer system.
I stand corrected on the graffiti wash, but my general point was the TA for years just let the R-1/9s get dirty, to the point the "City of New York' logo disappeared. But they could get away with it, because dirt wasn't as offensive and annyoing as the spray paint, which blotted out windows, signs, etc.
Had the first R series cars, the High Vs, Low Vs, triplexes and standards been subjected to the constant washing the current cars have undergone in the past 20 years, they're lifespans probably would have been shortened also by rust the way the Redbirds have.
Good lord I hope not. I would hate to see the R142's become the "Dave Brown" cars of the MTA. Slow, and never seems to know where it has to go ...
Then again, Dan Reeves was Mr. Conservative. He was like that in Denver, too.
Let's hope the R-142s won't be clones of the R-44s.
Here, here. I would have loved to have seen the R-10s retained, and put back on the A where they belonged, but they would have needed some serious wheel turning or attention to whatever it was that was causing some of them to be so painfully loud.
While IMHO it was a mortal sin to have retired the Triplexes so prematurely, I read the Multis were having problems by the time they left the scene. Sometimes they just plain didn't want to stop!
Putting the R-16s out of their misery is one thing. Scrapping equipment which is still running fine is another.
Because they don't make 'em like they used to.
--Mark
Improvements to the R-32 fleet? Increase its size. Bump out the R-44, R-46, and R-68(A).
Keep the R-46. Bump the other two.
I won't ask for things that really should be fleet-wide, like
increasing the brake rates and making all the ECR relays have a
little accident.....so
Marker Lights!
I agree with Jeff. But:
PUT A GODDAMNED CAB SEAT ON THE #2 END!!!!!
YOU try and do 4 trips on the E standing all day!!
How about something that could ACTUALLY happen...AC propulsion/regenerative braking!
David
Bigger flipdot signs with LED's (red-orange-amber-yellow-green), plus blacklight in the flourescent tube position for blue (8th Av.). This would be offcentered to the left, and on the right would be a digital destination sign, so it would be just like the original sign positions, but digital. The side signs would use the new type LCD used on Peter Pan, NJT (yellow) or Grand Central Terminal boards (white). The letters on these resemble the original rllsigns.
I am posting this without reading the long list of subsequent posts, so I can get my 2¢ in.
PLEASE, PLEASE do something, ANYTHING about those miserable bulkhead signs, which are utterly worthless, as I have mentioned before.
Also: Wish #2: Put in the backlit signs and curly bars like the R32GE and the R38.
Wish #3: The new floors should be black or dark grey linoleum, with a pearlescent pattern, like R68A #5057 and #5059.
I will now return to read the subsequent posts.
Wayne
If the side signs are going to be backlit once again, use green lights as was the case when the R-32s were new. I can still see "57th St." or "Coney Island" illuminated in green.
From a guy who operates the cars every day, I can't give just one! The flip dots just gotta go! Can a sign box ala R40, 42 et al.,. be put to the left of the storm door? If not a small sign box where the "dots" are now, controlled by the same dial type in the cab?....... Digital side signs.......BLUE PAINT: exterior blue door panels and storm doors will make the cars look great. Blue passenger seats too! But I'm sure MTA won't go for that!........An extra vent for air conditioning in the cab. Cabs too hot in summer with cab door closed.......WABCO to replace NYAB, but keep the phase II Master Controller...... New air conditioning systems where needed. The same cars are failing over & over & over (3411, 3812, I can go on!)........R32's assigned to whichever line I work!!!
Keep them off the F!!
You must be an R-46 fan. Hey, nothing wrong with that.
I know that I didn't put it in the original post but I was asking about R-32 Phase I cars so the WABCO replacing NYAB is not an issue. The Phase II master controller (Westinghouse) has been a problem and will likely go.
FIX the dead motors and do something about the conductors sash windows.They tend to get stuck or fall apart. Give the T/O's a break, get some air in thier cabs.
Considering relatively good reliability and flexibility - these cars may show up on a wide variety of lines.
A major weakness in this is that their signage stinks! So bring back the bulkhead signs as best possible option and get rid of digital signage.
If we can't do that - then at the very least, get the digital signage in bright white or light blue - any color other than yellow.
The R-110A digital ends signs are pretty good. They change color for their line.
The damn front signs you can't see
--Mark
WANTED: Any updates on this project; this includes train start up dates and related stuff. Thanks.
It seems like the new pick, and therefor train service is going to start on Aug 29. If not that weekend at the very latest by Labor Day, since we have to repick jobs on the new schedule.
8/29? Yipeee! No more treks out to Jamaica to ride that massive mugger mover called the E train in the morning. Kudos to the construction company who was able to finish the project so quickly. Perhaps they should take over the Manhattan Bridge repairs. Maybe we'll have 4 track operation by Christmas (LOL)
Me thinks it's not that the construction will be finished early, but that they built a lot of time into the construction schedule to allow for delays. So many projects in this city go over their posted schedule, they figure, 'Hey, if will tell them it'll take 10% longer than our worst-case, we'll finish early, and the people will rejoice!'
And I'm sure the fact that we have had VERY little rainfall since the start of the project helps.
-Hank
August 29th?
Pardon the language but, DAMN!
Does this beat any TA construction projects times?
Sure, they did it fast. Incentives will do that. I think all these incentives plans are a _great_ thing for transit projects -- that means roads and bridges as well as mass transit.
Every time a project like this goes well, the possibility of a major improvement (i.e. 2nd ave) inches closer to being possible. If the economy cools off, though, forget about it.
Does this also mean a certain weekend express train will cease to exist(or so I've heard)?
I've been told that blue>C service will continue to operate
in Brooklyn on the weekends, thus assuring that
A weekend express service should continue.
How did you get the A blue like that? I would like to know please post on Subtalk. Thank you..........
It's HTML, you can read an HTML FAQ. You do it by: <FONT COLOR=blue> then follow with the text you want blueified, then finish with </FONT> you can replace blue with any color you wish. When typing into Subtalk, please use GOLD for the Broadway trains, Yellow is illegible with a white background. Whenever using HTML, please use the Preview button before posting to make sure it comes out right.
wow it works
From the previous experience with the 63st tunnel line, they may not actually finish it when the pick starts. I think the bridge will open shortly after Labor Day, however.
-Hank
Bridge opening after Labor Day!!!!!!!! What about the FS?
If that's the case, then I think it's time for a "Welcome Back to the Willy B" fantrip!
Bob,
My thoughts exactly! I hope I can be in town for the great day. Our friend Bill From Maspeth promised to let us know when he finds out the exact schedule.
That may be a problem. I never expected it to reopen before Labor Day! But one of the J line conductors found out from a dispatcher in the "Crew Office" that the new pick goes in on 8/29 with the bridge reopening before the AM rush Monday 8/30. Also, one of the motormen found out the same information from "the pick man" at Parsons/Archer. A pick has to commence this Monday to pick Labor Day. That holiday assignment was already picked by everybody for this current bridge closed pick, and when we started picking for the pick with the bridge reopened, NYCT never thought the bridge would be ready BEFORE Labor Day! I will be on vacation for 2 weeks and out of town as of Sun 8/15. I will return to work when the new pick starts. So unfortunately, I will not be able to examine the transitional schedule for the bridge reopening. I would imagine the first passenger train will roll sometime during the midnite hours of Monday 8/30. So it would be difficult for any of us to be on it since that would be a work day. Now if it were to reopen Sat. nite/Sun. morning, then a fan trip may be feasible. Hopefully, some other SubTalker will be able to get the information as to the time the first train is scheduled to cross.
Later this month, I have to go from DC to midtown NYC, so I've decided to forgo my usual USAirways Shuttle ride and take the Metroliner. For the past week, I've been trying to use reservations.amtrak.com, the Web-based schedule & reservation site for AMTRAK. When you click on the link from the AMTRAK home page, it just sits there. And Sits There. AND SITS THERE. Any time of the day, for days on end.
So today I went down to Boston South Station to pick up my ticket. The agent told me that AMTRAK is upgrading their system to be Y2K compliant, and thus it's unavailable.
Hey AMTRAK -- how about putting up a simple message instead of having an unusable link? You tout AMTRAK's new customer service, and this would be a great start!
I tried it after reading this post. If you're talking about the link at the top of their homepage, I was able to get through without delay.
But I've found ,Amtrak's web site to be flakey too. Their phone sechdule / pricing system is pretty bad too.
BTW - Todd - I'm CERTAIN of it this time - you *can* get LIRR schedules at south station. Saw them behind the info desk counter all the way over by the wall where that sculpture made out of train couplers is...
I'm CERTAIN of it this time - you *can* get LIRR schedules at south station
A friend of mine mentioned to me several months ago that he saw LIRR schedules there. Is it possible to get Metro-North or NJT schedules too??
The agent told me that AMTRAK is upgrading their system to be Y2K compliant, and thus it's unavailable.
huh? I've been using the site on and off over the last 2 weeks and haven't had any problems (although the tickets I bought have yet to arrive in the mail, so maybe I shouldn't be saying anything yet...). Even better, the web site finally lets me enter my NARP number to get the 10% NARP discount, and it's also finally possible to check fares (but not buy tickets) without registering for a login.
Could be a case of someone using y2k as a catch-all excuse for all computer problems, whether y2k-related or not.
David, what's a NARP?
The agent told me that the 10% AAA discount is not available on Metroliners :($
Todd,
NARP stands for National Association of Railroad Passengers.
Also, the 10% AAA discount is available on weekend Metroliners only. Weekday Metroliners are not applied.
Chaohwa
Lately, to me the 7 train has gotta be the worst subway line in the system. They use these old, rickety trains.
But that is just the beginning. I waited till 8pm to take it east. Got on, as usual the train was stuffed. Then people behind me boarding pushed me in, even though I could not really get much more into the train. I almost got shoved to the floor.
Riders on the 7 are very rude. They often push their way into the train. It's bad enough the A/C sucks. It's bad enough there is nothing to hold onto. Then you got these riders who just don't care. They will trample you just to get into the damn train.
Funny thing is, I've been on the crowded Lexington avenue line at the rush (4,5,6). I've also been on the E/F, N, B and Q trains as well as 1 and 9. Nothing tops the 7 as the worst train. And now it's short, 10 cars instead of 11.
Personally I like BMT/IND cars much better than IRT. I think the A/C is better, and the wider design allows for more room for standees.
IRT lines are antiquated, in my opinion with their narrower design. Also trains on IND and BMT have a smoother ride.
Sorry, but I'm not a fan of redbirds.
My favorite trains are the anything R-40 and after, basically most of the silver colored trains. Though the R-68 have an IRT design, I dont like IRT design as much.
Like the stations on the E, like Sutphin, Van Wick, and Jamaica center. Nice flourescent tunnel lighting too.
I know a lot of people may not agree, but I think trains of the BMT and IND divisions are so much nicer than IRT. Sorry but that's how I feel!
Also for you LIRR complainers, I've been coming across quite a few hot cars in the subway also! Whenever the car appears empty, it's a good bet it's a hot one.
During the time the IRT was built, people were much smaller than they are today. As time went on, other subway systems(some in NYC and elsewhere) made rolling stock bigger to allow more people and for passenger room and comfort. At the time, the IRT was probably fine for the people using it.
But through the years, you'll notice how Division B(BMT/IND) has been getting more attention(station renovations, line extensions, new rolling stock) than Division A(IRT).
That's my take.
People were't THAT much smaller in the early part of this century. The truth is, the tunnels were purposely made smaller to discourage either freight use, or a takeover by the NY Central, depending on which story you would like to believe. And even at 11 cars, an IRT train is still shorter than a 10-car BMT train by 50' or so.
-Hank
[During the time the IRT was built, people were much smaller than they are today. As time went on, other subway systems(some in NYC and elsewhere) made rolling stock bigger to allow more people and for passenger room and comfort. At the time, the IRT was probably fine for the people using it.]
Actually, New Yorkers in 1904 (or 1954, for that matter) probably were on average larger than New Yorkers today, due to the recent influx of generally small-statured Asian and Latin American immigrants.
Part of the problem is in the nature of the line. You could put R-62s, R-142s or whatever on there, and the Flushing line would still be crowded.
As for the AC, the retrofits aren't as efficiant as the more built-in models the BMT and IND have, but as an earlier thread noted, the 7 spends about two-thirds of its trip above ground, where the sun helps make the AC less efficant.
On the positive side, thanks to the R-44 and R-68, the subway cars in the A and B divisions have taken on the attributes of NFL running backs -- you've got your small, quick scatback trains on the IRT lines, and your big slow lumbering fullbacks on the BMT and IND express runs. (The R-32s, 38s and R-40s being the Terrell Davis compromise between speed and size).
As for new construction, most of it is either currently on the IND (63rd St.) or proposed for IND extensions (The southeast Queens and Second Ave. lines), though if Rudy has his way, the 7 extension to Javits Center/Steinbrenner Stadium will be the next major project. Outside of extending the 7 east in Queens, the other IRT lines really don't have anyplace to expand, except for south central Brooklyn on the Nostrand Ave. line.
While it would still be crowded, the ride would no doubt be easier in a BMT/IND type car (div B) than a narrower IRT (div A) one.
And it's not just the crowds but the people. The 7 has some very rude riders. I've found that the 7 is the rudest train.
The 7 line just has a rude personality.
The cars that replace the redbirds on the 7 line should have tinted windows to block the sun out.
About extending the 7 to the Javits and Steinbrenner, have funds been identified for the projects yet? Or is that still in the Albany and Washington lobbying stages?
Still in the Guliani wish list phase. No money as of yet has been authorized for any new subway line past the 63rd St. connector.
Nothing to hold onto on the 7? The redbirds are as close as riders can get to being true straphangers -- I find those flippy dangling things much easier to hold onto than the horizontal bars on the newer cars, although flying through Columbus Circle on a 2 while holding on is always a bit of a challenge.
Do the R-44's, R-46's and R-68's really have more room to stand than Redbirds? Those seats take up an awful lot of space, and nobody likes being stuck in a window seat next to a stranger since it's a pain to get out.
How do the R-68's have an IRT design??
The new Archer Avenue Extension stations are nice but are pretty boring. Give me Chambers Street any day over them.
Those straphangers are the stupidest pieces of crap ever forced onto the American public. When the train rocks back and forth or goes through a curve, you might as well let go, what use are they? Let's not forget that no matter how much space there is, if there are, say, 10 straphangers, 10 people will stand. No more. I commend the MTA for doing such a good job overhauling all the BMT/IND cars (except for the R-32/38 signs) but did a crappy job doing the Redbirds. Since they would last 15-20 years after their rebuilds to their doom, they should have done a better job, like decluttering the ceilings, removing the thick poles that support the A/C units and of course those measures will make the A/C better. And of course, NO MORE STRAPHANGERS. A nice addition would be cutting the dividers between the windows and making picture windows (unnecessary on WF cars, for obvious reasons).
Those 'thick poles' actually HOLD UP the blower and evaporator. The coolant lines run through the poles to the compressor and heat exchanger under the car.
-Hank
(Did I just re-arrange the A/C system?)
thats all good but they're a pain to sit next to.
So sit elsewhere.
-Hank
The R-32 and R-38 had the A/C retrofit yet they avoid the annoying fat poles.
Look where the A/C units were put on those cars. They're placed (and supported) mostly on the car ends, between the last set of doors and the car end, not middle of the ceilings between the end and center side doors. The BMT-IND cars are longer, which equals more space for the equipment to be spread out. They also had a different configuration before they were overhauled.
-Hank
Trouble is, those straps on the redbirds are all being used!!! It's so damn crowded on the 7 people are holding onto anything, train doors, windows, the vent, even eachother.
While the newer BMT/IND rolling stock does not have straps, it does in my opnion give a smoother ride, so it's easier to stand. But on the redbirds, you have to hang on for dear life.
Why the hell did they shorten the 7 train anyway? Since it's been 10 cars instead of 11 the crowding is practically intolerable.
Because the 11th car is a piece of s*** and doesn't have air conditioning. This is the worst car in my opinion. When the R-142s arrive they ABSOLUTELY MUST be scrapped.
My "friend" went to the TA Museum at Grand Central last night ... I have some bad news & some good news:
- He got the LAST Lisa Lou - Am. Glamorana MC ... must have been a realy small run of cards. Personally the LAST is the imporant part, as he, Allan & a few others have them :-(
- He was able to get two sets of the first 4 of 6 Mets/Topps "Int'l Week" set: 8/6 = Hispanic; 8/7 = Irish; 8/8 = Jewish; 8/9 Asian. They are quite attractive.
- He also said three other collectors were in line behind him. Looks like a lot of New Yorkers are joining the fun ... I wonder what else they collect ? My article in a June token newsletter brought just a few inquiries, so it may not be them.
- Millenium MetroCard ... anybody know anything about this one, i.e. when did/is it comming out, and where sold ?
- New collector repeat of a "mounting" suggestion (wasn't my idea, thanks need to go to Mark): Staples has a "Business Card Holder" that's just the right size for you to display 8 MCs at a time in a three ring binder. It's heavy duty plastic so it will tollerate a lot of showing off of your stuff. They come three to a pack at about $4.
Mr t__:^)
As you may know, I do not work for the TA. I'm not even old enough to vote:)
However, I do have a question about "The Pick".
From the name and the posts I've read, I pretty much figured out what it was. So what's the whole process anyway and how often does it occur?
I'm sure there's some kind of seniority deal going on with who get's the "Best pick"(i.e.-the rookies get stuck with the B and D(so they get stuck with the R-68's) and the veterans get the good lines(Flushing El or my favorite, the Broadway/Nassau line).
(I feel weird writing this yet-another-request, since I ask more than I contribute around here, but I think it would be a great idea)
How about a month-in-the-life section of TO's and conductors on this
site? From pick to walk-around (to handles) or (to buttons) to
the dead-head ride home?
On that topic, what's a typical day in the life of a TO like?
(I read Marion Swerdlow's book, so I've a better idea about
conductors - no offense meant! ;)
Be glad to put it up. Anyone want to write it?
Dave, here it is. I probably left something out, but someone will correct me.
Pick Procedure for RTO (Conductors and Train Operators)
General Picks for jobs, days off, pay location and holidays are picked by seniority and held twice a year.
A notice with the Call Sheets goes out 5 days before the start of the pick. Notice shows starting date of pick (ie when picking starts, not implementation date) and holiday dates. Call sheets show day and time employee picks. It also shows employee's file number (seniority), name, pass number, Division and title.
After checking the Call Sheets for date and time, you go to one of the pick locations to look at available jobs. You are expected to have your selections ready at your pick time.
The A Division is divided into two sections - Broadway (1,2, 3 & 7) and East (4, 5, 6 & S).
The B Division is divided into three sections - South (B, D, N, Q & FS), Queens (E, F, G & R) and North (A, C, J, L and M).
When you first come out to the road, you are thrown to a division (maybe you'll get a choice, but don't count on it) as an Extra Extra List. This means you have no Pick job and are at the mercy of the Crew Office for starting times and locations as well as days off. Once you can pick a job, you may transfer divisions if you want. Since so many of you like Redbirds, e'll use the A division for the example. Assuming you are high enough on the list you have your choice of sections as well as tour - Midnight (start time between 2200 and 0400), AM (start times between 0400 and 1200) and PM (start time between 1200 and 2200). Now, you look at the jobs in that particular area - B'way Midnight - that you want to work. If your file number is really high, you can pick a straight job, ie the same job every night Mon thru Fri. If not, you may end up with Mon/ Tue as Days off, work the samejob Wed thru Fri and pick a Sat and Sun job. Of course, when you're fairly new, you work an RDO Relief job - your jobs during the week are picked from the leftovers that occur from people who pick off M/T or Th/F plus a weekend job. You also have the option of picking the Extra List for either section or picking Vacation Relief in the division.
Keep in mind: XXL - you can start anywhere in the division at any time during the tour you are working. XL - You can start anywhere in the section at any time during your tour. Vaction Relief - every two weeks, a list of people going on vaction in the division is issued. You bid on jobs, which are awarded in order of seniority. If there are more VR people than open jobs, some of them will become Extra for that time. This is a great way to spend summers, since high seniority people go on vacation then and you get their jobs, ie S/S off and holidays off.
In my own case, I came out of School Car into A Division in Feb '98, worked XXL for Feb. New Pick in March '98, still XXL (during the Lenox Rehab summer). Oct '98 picked Vac. Relief in A Division (my other choice was PMs on the 6 - I don't like PMs and the 6; together it was more than I wanted to deal with). I spent this pick going between Midnights and AMs, with different days off every week. Of course, I got off Thanksgiving and Christmas, so it wasn't all bad. The current pick started in May '99. I transferred to the B Division because I could get starting locations closer to home ( SI). My Pick job was an RDO Relief in the South, AMs all on the N - Sun at Stillwell, M & T same job at City Hall, W & Th off, F & S at Coney Island Yard. For the upcoming Pick, I'll be on the B on Sun, M at City Hall, T& W off, Th &F same job at C.I. Y. , Sat also at C.I.Y.
The No.6 and PM'S don't really mix. In and out all Night and No Lunch. If its a early Pm Job don't forget your Lay Up.
how long will it be before you get to pick your hours?
what is the policy on time off, can you take it with no pay?
I do pick my hours; unfortunately I pick from what's left over. In general, I work early AMs: Sun @ 0913, M/T @ 0439, F @ 0628, Sat @ 0818. Next Pick: Sun @ 0856, M 2 0543, Th/F @ 0603, Sat @ 0748. Hopefully, though, this will be the last time I pick for a while - I'm hoping to be called for Train Operator before the end of the pick. That will put me at the bottom of the list again, but give me a raise.
There's an old saying: the only guy to pick is the #1 man. Everybody else (including the #2 man) has to choose from whatever is left over!
Heck, I'd work the Franklin Ave Shuttle at night if I could get a MTA job. Of course, I'd have to be packing some major firepower, like an AK-47.
I was surprised to learn that of America's 10 largest cities, one doesn't have a public transit system.
Detroit, MI.
Now that it's almost out of the top ten(if not already-I heard they were counting the homeless just to keep the populaion over the one million mark), do you think having a system would have been helpful in at least slowing down the city's record decrease in population?
[I was surprised to learn that of America's 10 largest cities, one doesn't have a public transit system.
Detroit, MI.
Now that it's almost out of the top ten(if not already-I heard they were counting the homeless just to keep the populaion over the one million mark), do you think having a system would have been helpful in at least slowing down the city's record decrease in population?]
Detroit did have some sort of downtown people-mover system. I'm not sure exactly what it was, possibly some type of elevated light rail, but I believe it's now out of service. I do know that Detroit's suburban commuter rail shut down about ten years ago.
Whether effective tranist would have stemmed Detroit's population decline is a matter of speculation. My suspicion is that the 1967 riots and the loss of much of the city's industrial base were bigger factors.
Detroit's suburbs are thriving today, but their population density probably isn't high enough to support an extensive transit system, particularly one that's rail-based. And it goes without saying that the auto culture is very strong in the area.
The Detroit peoplemover has been out of service on several occasions, the most recent being when a building being imploded collapsed the wrong way and heavily damaged one section. Two portions have resumed service but it is expected to be November before full service is restored.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I was surprised to learn that of America's 10 largest cities, one doesn't have a public transit system: Detroit, MI."
Not really.
According to 1996 figures from the U.S. Census Bureau, the top ten metro areas in population are, in order, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Houston. To be more specific, the metropolitan populations for the areas ranked eigth, ninth, and tenth, as estimated for July 1996, are:
Detroit 5,284,171 (up slightly from 5,187,171 in the 1990 Census)
Dallas/Fort Worth 4,574,561
Houston 4,253,428
Of the top ten cities, only Detroit and Houston have no *rail* transit, with the arguable exception of the People Mover loop in downtown Detroit. If you look at the top 20 metro areas as of 1996 by adding to the above list Atlanta, Miami, Seattle/Tacoma, Cleveland, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Denver/Boulder, they all either have rail transit or are building it, except for Phoenix.
However, Detroit, Houston, and Phoenix are not "transitless" since they have bus transit. In Detroit, city service is provided by the Detroit Department of Transportation while suburban buses are operated by an authority called SMART (a rather contrived acronym for Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation).
Source of all Census statistics above: http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro-city/ma96-08.txt
When I said "among the 10 largest cities", I really meant
the core city itself, not the suburban areas(though those
are becoming blurred in some areas).
I used to be able to name the 50 largest cities in
order(this moreover goes to show my lack of a social
life).
As of the '90 census, Detoit was 7th at 1,027,974(with San
Diego between it and the top 5).
As far as the transit issue, I do recall seeing a map of
the downtown area and seeing a people mover. In fact, at
www.photostogo.com, there is a photo of a train
in front of the Renaissance Hotel(It takes a while to load, but you can find it under "subway").
The reason I don't really count the people mover as rail transit, though technically I suppose it is, and despite the fact that I have ridden it, is that it has a very limited route and is not used for commuting but only for circulation within the downtown area. I don't really count a city that has only buses and a downtown peoplemover as a "rail transit city," but others may disagree.
And comparing core cities alone isn't a fair measure in, for example, Boston, where the city of Boston faces a large separate municipality (Cambridge) just across the river from downtown. Cambridge and many communities bordering Boston proper are urban, rather than suburban, in population density, land uses, transit availability, etc. but are legally suburbs because they are separare municipalities from the core city. If only the core cities were compared, London would be small indeed, because the City of London itself is only about a square mile and mainly consists of offices, banks, etc. (^:
Didn't 'SMART' originally mean 'Southeast Michigan Area Regional Transit' or something very similar rather than that really contrived 'Suburban Mobility Authority' John Bredin cites?
And are the heritage trolleys in front of the Joe Louis Convention Center still operating? I drove through Detroit a week or so ago but didn't have time to stop (those streetcars in Toronto were calling my name and saying 'Ride me, ride me,' but alas the eastern end of Queen Street was all torn up for rail and overhead replacement and I couldn't bring myself to ride a replacement bus).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Could Somebody tell howe late the"Q" is going to run when the new schedule is implemented I know is got a span increase. also if there were any other changes in eithjer division please tell me.
On the A Division the preposed Pick sheets for the service for this fall are.
No.2 Line -Local from 96 Street to Chambers Late Nights only
- 6 Minute Headway during Middays
No.6 Line -Local to Brooklyn Bridge all Night
- Every 4 Minutes out of Pelham Bay and every 2 Minute out of Parkchester during Middays.
When the sheets come out for the A Division I will let you know. The Following Information was given to me by the Dispatchor at 241 Street and Train Crews on the Pelham Line
Dave, I don't think those midday times on the 6 are right. With all the wheel detectors at Parkchester, there is no way they could ever get a local out of there every 2 minutes.
So, the 2 is going to run local in Manhattan late at night, eh? Hopefully this won't cause delays where it has to switch tracks.
Since the No.2 Line will mainly run local Between Midnignt and 5AM there should be no delays. The Perpose of the No.2 running local is to have a 10 Minute Headway between 96 Street and Chambers Street.
[ So, the 2 is going to run local in Manhattan late at night, eh?
Hopefully this won't cause delays where it has to switch tracks. ]
I would think that during late nights, there wouldn't be any delays due to any kind of crossover moves, because there isn't much conflicting traffic.
Isn't the WEst Side IRT express service just going to miss its 95th birthday in October (or was there ever a time prior to the current "improvement" that there was not West Side express service overnight)?
Next step--any other night, weekend, or non-rush hour express service goes.
Next step after that--1:00 a.m to 5:00 a.m.--no rail service, just parallel buses.
Next step after that--no service, steel or rubber-tired wheels between those hours.
It would continue the TA's continuing policy of service cuts that are labeled as "improvements." And tough for the poor slobs who might live in mid to upper Bronx or the outlying sections of Brooklyn who might want to get home a few minutes sooner without their butts sliding back and forth a dozen extra times.
Broadway is a good example--four services each operating every 20 minutes overnight has been reduced 75% to one local-only every 20 minutes.
Give the subways back to the politicians who are answerable to the people who own the system and we'll have 24-hour service all over the city again the way the system was intended and built to operate.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Even one better is that one who misses a local desiring to go to 242 St is still waiting 20 minutes for a train to 242 St because the number 2 he gets on behind the local will not make a future connection. But the bean counters at Jay St can proudly proclaim that there is 10 minute midnight service. What if the northbound local, which is now held at Chamber St instead of South Ferry makes a connection with the train out of Brooklyn? You are waiting 18 minutes for a train on a two minute headway? Either way the TA increased your service. HAHAHAHAHA! Maybe we should hire those who work in Bombay to run Jay Street.
With the advent of the #2 going local overnight, this creates a 10 minute headway in the city. This will make life difficult for the collectors (money trains) and the #2 regular work(garbage train. They will be hard pressed to make fast moves. The collector might not be too bad because the motorman changes ends in the train with only two cars. The regular work has threee flat bed cars with garbage dumpsters on them. When he changes ends he has to walk the roadbed when in a spur. They will have to double end this train (2 motormen) if they want to do the work quickly.
In the Eastern Division of the BMT and now on the Queens IND, the garbage is being hauled up into the street and onto a TA garbage truck. And the TA saves $$$ because it is all done with just 2 men. They are also using trucks and not the revenue collector in places to service the booths with change, tokens & MetroCards.
They were doing that the last time I worked over there in '96. Alot of times this is done when there are G.O.s. I would like to know what the plans are for the collectors and pickups in the IRT.
This Rail Historian is concerned that the Universal Critic is using my sytle of writing threads on Subtalk. Everyone wants to get into the act.
Oh, dear.
The Universal Critic is distressed to hear that our brother, the Rail Historian, believes that the Universal Critic's method of written expression is not natural, perhaps not even an homage, but a pose.
To quote our esteemed predecessor, Oscar Wilde, "But isn't it an attractive pose?"
Let's keep on the subject and not poetry. Sometimes you sound like th Joker of Batman fame.
Poetry? The Joker? Cesar Romero did more laughing than anything else, and after a while it got on your nerves. So did Frank Gorshin and Burgess Meredith. Huahh, huahh. Holy (fill in your own term)!
Maybe you both could just cut it out. No wonder people are getting annoyed. Rail Historian, I already saw your "goodbye" posting. When will you be back with another handle? Which style will you choose next time?
You two are the prime example why I think we need password control on this board. I had let the idea slide a little but don't worry, it will be here. You guys might want to decide which handle you want to use permanently while you still can.
Maybe I should post a correlation between all the different multiple handle posters on here. Or maybe I should just show the IP address and hostname information in every post so people can figure it out by themselves. I'm all for privacy but this multiple handle business is getting out of hand.
-Dave
I vote for both.
-Hank
Well I did go to Phila on Thursday. I started My trip from 30 Street. I got on the Market Street Line with the New M4's. It was nice and Air Conditioned. Also the trains were fast and smooth. Also I was suprised to be alble to stand at the front Window or sit at the front side Window. I can't believe that those Computor Annoutsment tell you that doors are opening and the doors are closing. I got of at 11th Street to go to the Musuem Store. Then I rode Up to Frankford Terminal. I asked the T/O if it was a 2 man operation. He told me no. Those trains are OPTO on the Market Franford Line. Also the T/O does not look out the window to observe the platform. This is what he told me. When he gets in the stations on his side he hits the DOORS Right Button. When Its the off side he hits doors left Button. Now he has 2 TV Monitors in his single cab. It shows the inside of all the 6 cars and a view of the Platform. Also the doors are Super sensitive. If anything get stuck in the doors as the train moves it will stop and the computer will tell the T/O what car and Door Panel. There have been No Drags since the start of OPTO on the Market Street Line. I rode the line during the Rush Hour no Problems. They are also just now working out the Bugs on the new trains. One Problem they do have is kids who pull on the doors and people who lean on the doors. Those two thing cause the Indication to go out causing the train to stop. It was a educational trip.
I am now convinced OPTO can work.
The doors, the doors.
I've had many a ride on the M-4's interrupted by announcements of "Please stop playing with the doors" or something to that effect. Sometimes they have to close two or three times before the train moves because of obstructions in the doorways.
And I wonder if SEPTA gets complaints about those announcements:)
You must have seen the test train with interior cameras. I believe there is only one MFL train that has those. Most trains do not have cameras inside the cars, and therefore only one tv monitor inside the cab, for the 3 platform cameras at each station.
There is also a similar train with interior cameras on the BSS.
I seen the TV Screens on all 7 Trains I observed.
Yes, all M-4s have TV monitors in the cab for the platform cameras. But most trains I have seen (and I ride every day,) do not have cameras _inside_ the cars, nor the second TV monitor in the cab to monitor them. That's what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Ok I see what you mean. Well that was my one day in Phila.
Its time for me to get back to running my No.1 Train
PELHAM BAY Dave is running the 1 train? hmm...
"Doors are opening,Frankford train making all stops,Doors are closing." Ok now repeat that 24 times. Do you think it's annoying??? I sure do!
It was easy to tell when the doors were opening and closing on the M-3's (Almond Joys). All you would hear was the irreplaceable sound of air operated door engines when they opened, And the Conductor's whistle when they were closing. Well...I guess that's the price for technology! I better not complain about those announcements, Who knows what the R-142 & R-143's have in store for us???
As for those leaning on or holding the doors...."Please stand clear of doors"
Mark
P.S.
"B train to 69th Street, B stops only"
This is the Brooklyn-bound 2
The next stop will be Park Place
Please stand clear of the closing doors
BEEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP
The next stop will be Park Place
This is Park Place, transfer is available to the A, C, E and 3 trains.
(and so on until...)
This is the 2 bound for Flatbush Avenue
The next stop will be Borough Hall
(and on...)
The next and last stop will be Flatbush Avenue
This is Flatbush Avenue, this is the last stop, please leave the train
Thank you for riding with the New York City Transit Authority
(every 10 minutes)
Ladies and Gentlemen, the time is now 3:30
(on the way back)
This is the 2 bound for Manhattan with continuing service to the Bronx
The next stop will be Newkirk Avenue
etc..
Then just: This is the Manhattan bound 2
You all should get the point by now.
It could be worse. I.e., it could be like the Atlanta Int'l Airport train between the terminals.
When the train is a station, huge red lights start to flash with an aural warning, "The doors are about to close. Please stand back and wait for the next train. Thank you. The doors are closing." And the doors close.
Inside the train, "Please sit down or hold on to a handrail. Beware, teh train is about to accelerate. The next stop is terminal 3, Northwest, KLM, United, Continental [I'm making the airlines up; don't hold me to them.] We are about to stop at terminal 3. Please hold on, the train is about to deccelerate. The train is stopping. Welcome to terminal 3. Please stand clear of the opening doors."
"The train is about to leave . . . "
Now THAT gets annoying by the time you get to the main terminal.
-Brandon Bostian
But (except for fans like us) who rides it more than from point A to point B while changing planes or getting baggage? For them it's probably not too bad.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Eh, I rode to the main terminal from the Northwest terminal when I went to Altanta. Even as an avid train fan, the announcements were highly annoying by the time I disembarked. :-)
I'd still ride it again, though. Bigger grin.
-Brandon
I hate The M4 Cars. Who here agrees. The only ting good about them is the AC. But alot of times that ont even work. Bring back the Almond Joys. Some guy wrote that in in the NorthEast Times here in Philly. He called them lemons because thats what they are.
We'll have the same crap here in New York in 2002 when the R-142s take over completely. We'll have people continue to call them lemons and we'll have people called ST. LOUIS MAN and AMERICAN CAR AND FOUNDRY MAN posting how they want the Redbirds to stop being garbage cars and come back into service.
It's not technology... it's the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). That is why the line and station are displayed and stated on the MFSE at every darn stop. Of course, people with both good hearing and vision are driven crazy by the constant talking by the machine and the constant sign changing all around them. I sure wish I knew what people did before these signs and statements were invented. I think that the most incredible thing is that the doors close while the statement "Doors closing" is heard. So by the time you hear the "clo..." it has already slammed in your face. I kind of wish they had used a voice with a Philadephia accent, then it might sound better. Also when they tell you which lines it connects with, they should say whether soft pretzels are available at street level :-).
They have done the same thing with the Jubilee Extension in London. And there they have gone one better, the return of walls with slots where the doors belong, and the doors open when the train doors attach to them, like elevator doors, Airport subways, and the Lexington Avenue South Ferry station (sorta, without the extra doors) from the beginning of the century.
The eletronic signs don't bother me. They're out of the way, yet prominent enough that you can always see one if you've been conversing, dozing, etc, and want to know what station is next. I see the signs as being timely, useful information, presented in just the right manner.
The voice anouncements are a tad annoying, but I don't mind them too much. I do like the fact that of you're commuting from 69th to Center City, you can shut your eyes and just listen, and not miss your stop. Great on Monday mornings. I think the voice is about as pleasant as it could be, but I can see how having one at all might be annoying for some.
The "Doors Opening" and "Doors Closing" are very obnoxious. If they really are required by ADA, then the ADA is insulting the intelligence of the disabled by assuming that they can't quickly fiugure out what a tone means.
I agree. Why does one need to have a voice announcement for doors opening and closing? On a recent visit to Toronto, I was very impressed with the T1's, which give a simple tone when the doors are about to close (along with the flashing lights) and this says it all. For all the high-tech gizmos, etc, the T1's rely on simple conductor announcements for stations, and this is fine for me.
It's interesting to compare this to SEPTA's 400 Ikarus buses, which have the announcements also. After a couple of years in service, most of the voices have been quieted to some degree, if not altogether stifled. Do most riders miss this? Most enjoy the quieter ride. I related a story here a while back about being stuck in expressway traffic on an Ikarus which kept making the "welcome to route 27..." announcement over and over again. It seems this is tied to the stopping and dwelling of the vehicle, and with the stop and go traffic, well, we got announcements out the proverbial wazoo.
In our attempts to improve things, sometimes we get carried away...
You might be right about maybe a Philly accent would have been better than the woman's voice. I heard they really labored over which voice to use and the gal who does the announcements is supposed to
be really cute. She rode the line when it first opened and all the guys really liked her.
Come on everybody, the M-4's aren't that bad. The A/c is good and the ride is smoother. They could use chimes for the doors, though. I also love the front "railfan" seats. You can actually see well from the first three rows !
Chuck Greene
Chuck I have to go along with your comments on the M-4 cars. They are pretty nice. Nice ride, railfan seat, and lets not forget the important A/C. Really did appreciate that A/C during the July 4th holiday. I wonder how "Consumer Reports" would rate our M-r cars?
This Rail Historian has an interesting thought. If the honest New York City Police Officer Frank Serpico had to deal with Bernard Goetz. Goetz would be thrown in jail forever with Officer Serpico arresting him. What are your thoughts?
The Universal Critic believes that his esteemed brother, The Rail Historian, is engaging in a non-sequitar.
This Rail Historian says you could keep the subject of rapid transit subject and not the Batman Joker language.
This Rail Historian has an interesting thought. If the honest New York City Police Officer Frank Serpico had to deal with Bernard Goetz. Goetz would be thrown in jail forever with Officer Serpico arresting him. What are your thoughts?
The Universal Critic believes that his esteemed brother, The Rail Historian, is engaging in a non-sequitar.
This Rail Historian says you could keep the subject of rapid transit subject and not the Batman Joker language.
??????
I'm not sure what any of this exchange has to do with rapid transit, except that Goetz shot people on the subway.
Why would Serpico particularly interest himself with Bernhard Goetz? And he [Serpico] certainly couldn't throw anyone in jail for life unless he was both judge and jury.
Although I guess I could imagine that Serpico is a person so full of himself that he'd like to do that.
Please, please, please let's stop this. It's starting to get less than civil.
You guys want to cut it out please?
Maybe I should just ban you guys and be done with it. Neither of you are contributing much to the board and I think everyone is just getting tired of this.
In my book Bernie Goetz is still a wacko -- only thing was he had good aim. What if his aim wasn't that good -- chances are he could have done some serious harm to innocent subway riders. Think about it.
BTW, Frank Serpico is/was a descent human being who HAPPENNED to be a cop. Sure he 'ratted' on his fellow officers, but that in itself took alot of balls to do back in those days. I salute him!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Bernhard Goetz, like his attackers, was a product of the social breakdown of the 70's.
We may forget that at the time of the incident, roving bands of kids harassed and sometimes mugged or even murdered passengers. Remember the Iowa(?) tourist who was knifed to death defending his mother at 53rd-7th?
Goetz drew the attention of his attackers because in the words of one "he looked soft." Many New Yorkers (including members of the Goetz jury) knew what it meant to be guilty of the crime of "lookig soft" when a bunch of acting-out kids entered a subway car.
In my memory of the 50s and early 60s, almost any adult could challenge a kid who was getting a little out of hand on public transport and the kid would stop. By the time Goetz came around all adults felt they could do was keep their noses in their newspapers and hope the kids would find someone else to harass.
So of course Goetz is/was a wacko. At the time only a wacko was going to challenge those kids. But he did what a lot of other "soft" people secretly wished they could do.
Paul, I agree with your post.
BTW, I with not be posting to Goetz and Serpico thread anymore since it seems to get the anyst of a one such "Rail Historian".
Chat again later.
Doug aka BMTman
I see Bernie Goetz is going to have more than his fair share of 'his turn in the barrel'on Subtalk. Back when (???) Berine Goetz was faced with a perceived threat. He had two choices, fight or flight. While most of us would likely opt for flight, Bernie Goetz chose to fight. Regardless of how you see the merits of the case, that was the bottom line. So what happens? His actions make us all a little uncomfortable. Not because we want Darryl Caby and his Band of Merry Men running among us but because we are uncomfortable with the fact that faced with the same set of circumstances, we (NY society) might turn tail and run (or worse yet, give into the extortive demands and pray we are not hurt). We don't like looking at ourselves that carefully in the mirror so we make Bernie the bad guy to justify our own lack of courage as a society.
As for the second part of your statement, why would you expect Bernie to spend the rest of is life in jail. Convicted murderers do minimal time. He killed nobody. In fact he was only convicted of carrying an unlicensed weapon. Finally - what is the link with Serpico? I don't see the relationship.
I have picture showing Harry Houdini escaping from a strait jacket with the Battery Place Station of the 6th/9th Avenue EL in the background.
Holw about Harry Houdini escaping from the E or F train in Queens during rush hour?
This sunday, i will be adding more bus & subway pictures on my page. I will have MCI page, RTS Storage Yard from Carltion Ave & work trains from Williamburge Bridge.
Peace Out
Meaney
WHAT'S THE URL?
www.angelfire.com/ct/nyctmtasubway/index.html
The pictures are pretty good.
It appears that the Rail Historian is not welcome by the Subtalk Community. Maybe sometime in future this Rail Historian will have something to say.
well at least u got the message. chirpy says bye
(I just posted this in the other thread, sorry for the duplication.)
To everyone:
I hate to see someone get turned off and leave SubTalk. We may all be coming from different places, but with a just a little effort to be tolerant, I think the rewards of more minds contributing are well worth it. That's just my take on things.
To Rail Historian:
The only problem I have is that you always refer to yourself in the third person. I'm sure if we were to speak in person, it would be accompanied by a tone of voice that would make it come across in good humor, as I assume it is intended.
However, we are not face-to-face here on SubTalk, and in writing, referring to yourself in the third person comes across as pretentious and condescending, which no one appreciates. If you were to start referring to yourself as "I", "me", or "myself", I know it would be a lot easier for me to take you seriously. That might just be me, though...
Are the tracks that extend pass Jamaica Center Parsons on the E being used.Where do they end because I see it curve east and the speed limit is 10mph.Is this going to be an extension for the E in the near future?
This was supposed to extend along the LIRR to Rochdale Village and beyond. The tracks only go as far as Liberty Ave
Right now the tracks extend approximately 1/2 mile beyond the end of the Parsons/Archer station. The line was originally envisioned to go south-east to Rosedale. Currently, the 2 tracks are used only for storage.
What about the J and Z? Does it follow the same pattern?
No, their tunnels were set to go straight. They should have extended it to Merrick Blvd for the bus terminal
So, they won't never be a track connect b/t the J/Z and E lines?
Highly unlikely.
One 8 car train can fit on each track beyond the station on tracks J1 and J2.
I found a classified ad for a "Request for Information" for the subject system placed by NYC Transit in a transit magazine. I've scanned it, and can be viewed HERE (Note - this is a 277K file.) Comments?!?!?
Technology over training - I guess the TA is really trying to eliminate the need for intelligence among the operating employees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Read the ad closely. Twice they used the word preform when they meant PERFORM. There is no intelligence in mgmt, why would they want it in Operations?
My older son is spending his summer vacation as an intern at a rural newspaper in North Carolina. He tells me that the newspaper business is dumbing down just as fast as the rest of society - running spell check has replaced real copy editing, and if spell check doesn't catch it, it must be right.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In defense of the newspaper, some advertisements are delivered to the paper with a "DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING!" attitude. So, the newspaper may have had no choice but to run the ad with the errors. Advertisers are very picky about their ads--and from the way the TA has been described around here, I could see them getting upset over unauthorized changes to fix an error.
Brandon Bostian,
Journalist. :-)
Also a possibility, that's for sure. In that case, my comments about the newspaper staff would apply to the TA's advertising staff. Either way, it demonstrates a lamentable loss of basic writing skills, wherever the problem may be. That's one thing I like about The Franklin Times(the local biweekly in Louisburg, NC where my son is interning this summer) - they haven't lost sight of what real newspapering is all about. He will learn far more about being a good newspaperman in a couple of summers interning there than he will in four years of college - not to disparage the education he's getting, but most journalism programs focus on "how to grab headlines and sell papers (or airtime)" rather than on how to report the news and tell the story of life in a community. He's got ink in his blood. To keep this somewhat on topic, he's currently researching a "community history" of the eleven-mile SAL branch (abandoned in the late 1980's) from Franklinton to Louisburg, NC. It may not print until fall, but who knows.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Like using a calculator to add 2+2.
Honestly, it sounds like the beginnings of automation. What's left to do after you have platforms that tell the train that it's OK to open the doors?
-Hank
Interesting idea! Replace the conductor with sensors that also stop the train correctly. Can you say NPTO? After all, if the silly thing can stop the train in the station, it should be able to do it on the road. Apparently, T/Os are as endangered as Conductors.
Does anyone rember the fully automated test train the T.A. tried on the Times Square shuttle back in the 60's. They were R22's
I belive. (It was lost in an accidental fire....) How about A.T.O. on the 44's and 46"s ? The T.A. has been trying automated trains for a long time. I just hope the union, doesn't sell out.
The prime purpose of a union is to collect dues and pay salaries to its officers and staff. No more T/Os, etc., no more members. No more members, no more dues. They'll fight.
That's a good point you have. The union should be telling the membership to start putting something aside each pay check,just in case the T.A. forces us to strike. It's a good idea to be prepared.
Yeah, good idea. Save money to use when your union says strike, when you're already going to lose twice as much pay for every day you're out. Cut your own discretionary income, impact your lifestyle, because the union that, by state law, you are forced to use for representation decides to make incredibly unreasonable demands on the establishment.
-Hank
Lets face it Local 100 is in MTA's pocket
In another age it would be a called a COMPANY UNION!
Who will be blamed when the TA replaces the conductors on the trains with this new system that I'm sure will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to design, manufacture, implement, install and trouble shoot (i.e. make work, and work it must because so much money will be invested).
What is at stake here?
Huge sums of money invested in a systems that docks the train diverted from much needed renewal of infastructure.
Potential to loss hundreds or thousands of jobs.
Less security for the riders.
And why, because a few employees either can not or will not perform their jobs properly and the TA can't seem to make them do it right or fire them.
A conductor that CAN NOT perform the task of opening the doors of his/her train on the proper or station platform side, should be out-of-service and fired! No excuses.
Jim K.
Chicago
I could probably design a $5 per door set solution (What is that? $40/car?) using an infrared obstruction detection circuit I know. (Mount it about a half inch below the doors--a platform would trip the detector and allow the doors to open.)
But I am sure they can find a more expensive way to do it. :-)
If the Pentagon could spend $9,000 for a 13-cent Allen wrench, anything is possible.
Look, this is really nothing more than a linear version of the controls in the elevators in any building less than 40 years old. I mean, which of you has ever ridden one where the operator stopped the car not quite at the floor and opened the door. And as to the current TA, I can only note that my own experience of wrong side open was on a midday IRT train @President St. sometime in 67-69. I wasn't due to get off, but I saw the doors pop and closse in a hurry. Apparently no one was injured. BTW we here with BART have essentially automated everything, and it mostly works, but it took years to work out the bugs. SF MUNI on the other hand implemented a new ATCS last August with results which made the East Coast papers. Unfortunately they seem to have paid to be beta-testers for software "not yet ready for prime time."
The 4:06 departure of the "Cannonball" left Hunterspoint Ave. with 2 DE30-AC's and TEN Bi-levels. The lead loco was 418. I did not get the car #'s. The last four cars were marked "PARLOR" with magnetic signs on the car sides. People will probably complain about this "PARLOR" service. The reason is after going into one of these I discovered that these people are paying $17.00 extra for nothing!!!! The seats are the same!!! I guess this is a hint from the R.R. that parlor service will soon disappear. A flyer was on each seat with the following printed:
WELCOME ABOARD....
INTRODUCING OUR BI-LEVEL CANNONBALL SERVICE
STARTING TODAY, WE'RE INAUGURATING BI-LEVEL CANNONBALL SERVICE TO THE EAST END, FEATURING THE NEWEST EQUIPMENT IN OUR FLEET. FROM THE MOMENT YOU STEP ONBOARD, YOU'LL NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE.
* LUGGAGE MAY BE EASILY STORED BENEATH THE NEW CANTILEVERED SEATS, AS WELL AS IN TWO LUGGAGE ALCOVES AT THE REAR. AS A COURTESY TO YOUR FELLOW PASSENGERS, PLEASE DO NOT PLACE LUGGAGE ON SEATS.
* THE TRAIN'S DESTINATION IS ELECTRONICALLY POSTED ON THE EXTERIOR OF EACH CAR, AND REPEATED IN AUDIO ANNOUNCEMENTS. BLINKING LIGHTS AND CHIMES ALERT YOU WHENEVER A DOOR OPENS OR CLOSES, AND ELECTRONIC SIGNS IDENTIFY UPCOMING STATIONS.
* SPACIOUS, WELL-LIGHTED RESTROOMS ARE IN THE FRONT OF EVERY OTHER CAR, AND INCLUDE HAND DRYERS, MIRRORS AND OTHER AMENITIES.
* PUBLIC TELEPHONE SERVICE IS AVAILABLE IN THE FRONT VESTIBULE OF EVERY CAR. CREDIT AND PHONE CARDS ACCEPTED.
* PARLOR SERVICE CARS ARE LOCATED AT THE REAR OF THE TRAIN.
* IN ORDER TO ELIMINATE THE NEED TO WALK THROUGH THE CARS IN ORDER TO EXIT, WE WILL NOW STOP TWICE AT EACH STATION, THEREBY ALLOWING ALL CANNONBALL CUSTOMERS TO DISEMBARK DIRECTLY FROM THEIR CAR TO THE PLATFORM.
THANK YOU FOR RIDING THE CANNONBALL. WE'RE SURE YOU'LL FIND YOUR TRIP RELAXING AND ENJOYABLE.
LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD
Many thanks, Mark.
I've been wonering if the advent of the bi-levels meant the end of Parlor Service. I had heard that some of the bi-levels haev extra luggage space, and I guess these are used as parlors.
I'm not sure the $17.50 is "for nothing" though.
I've never ridden a parlor but I have peeked in them. I've also been suffered the pain of being a garden variety commuter on the coaches of east-end trains on Friday nights.
The crowding is incredible. Every seat taken and then some (with 3 and 2 seating). But the worst is the luggage. Everybody takes mountains of luggage, pets in carriers, you name it. All stuffed into one big < sarcasm > happy < /sarcasm > train!
The parlors have ample room for luggage and more breathing room. So if the bilevel parlors duplicate that, plus drinkies at your seat, it might not be so bad!
[I'm not sure the $17.50 is "for nothing" though.
I've never ridden a parlor but I have peeked in them. I've also been suffered the pain of being a garden variety commuter on the coaches of east-end trains on Friday nights.]
I have ridden in the parlor cars - until about a year ago, they were sometimes used on the Greenport Shuttle. All I have to say is that the seats are strange. You sit at an awkward angle, something that I was able to tolerate on the five-minute trip to Medford but wouldn't be fun on a Hamptons run.
[ I have ridden in the parlor cars - until about a year ago, they were
sometimes used on the Greenport Shuttle. All I have to say is that the
seats are strange. You sit at an awkward angle, something that I was
able to tolerate on the five-minute trip to Medford but wouldn't be
fun on a Hamptons run. ]
Awkward angle? Maybe you should have moved the seat? On most of the Parlor cars I've seen, the seats were not in any way attached to the floor, so you could position them any way you'd like. If you were talking about seat-back angle or something, I thought they were comfortable, but everyone's different.
[Awkward angle? Maybe you should have moved the seat? On most of the Parlor cars I've seen, the seats were not in any way attached to the floor, so you could position them any way you'd like. If you were talking about seat-back angle or something, I thought they were comfortable, but everyone's different.]
It was the seat-back angle. You're sort of halfway between slouching and sitting up straight. I've not noticed anything quite like that anywhere else.
[ It was the seat-back angle. You're sort of halfway between slouching
and sitting up straight. I've not noticed anything quite like that
anywhere else. ]
I always slouch anyways -- that's probably why I thought they were comfortable :)
Filthy, but comfortable...
Sorry guys. There was one mistake in my post. The Cannonball did not run with 10 Bi-levels. It ran with 11......Mark
[ Cannonball had nine bilevels ]
Which brings up another point--just one locomotive? Do those new beats have so much power they can pull that much weight and still make the schedules without help.
Just a week or so ago I saw a coventional Sunday nighter blasting through Babylon with 3 locomotives, 9 coaches and 5 parlors.
I think if you checked back, the original post specifies (2) DE30AC locos. One interesting note, in Sunday's Newsday there was an editorial covering the use of the C-3s on the Cannonball. The writer complained about a lack of luggage space as well as room for bicycles. he suggested retrofitting some of the older coaches to serve as strictly baggage cars on weekend east-end trains. A valid point to say the least but perhaps the LIRR should opt to modifying a pair of C-1s for that duty rather than scrapping them. At least the look would be similar.
The Cannonball had 11 Bi-levels with a DE30-AC on each end. Whoever says that there was anything else is wrong. I was at Hunterspoint Ave. and saw and photographed it leaving. the loco on the lead was 418
So DE30-ACs are able to MU with each other even though they're at opposite ends of the train? Did the train also have a control car at the west end behind the loco?
This raises another question. On the LIRR all equipment always faces the same direction. How was the DE30-AC at the west end pointed? If the cab faced west, I wonder how they turned it.
On any push-pull equipment, whether it be LIRR's bi-level fleet, NJT's, fleet, SEPTA's, or even Amtrak's Amfleet (40000 series), you can use either an engine or a cab car as the trailing end of the train, the lead locomotive won't know the difference. The wiring through the train is basically just your ordinary diesel m.u. wiring setup.
As for the west end unit on the Cannon Ball facing west, maybe the LIRR planned for this move, and turned it at Morris Park before dispatching it to the yard to start out with the train consist. There IS also a "wye" out at Montauk yard, so turning the unit wouldn't have been that difficult.
[As for the west end unit on the Cannon Ball facing west, maybe the LIRR planned for this move, and turned it at Morris Park before dispatching it to the yard to start out with the train consist. There
IS also a "wye" out at Montauk yard, so turning the unit wouldn't have been that difficult.]
There are small control cabs on the "wrong" ends of the new locomotives. I peeked through the window of one of these at Ronkonkoma, and a notice readable from the outside said that there was a maximum speed of 15 mph when a locomotive was being controlled in this manner, with no MU-ing permitted.
There's also a wye at or near the Speonk station.
The bi-levels have thru MU cables on all cars, as they use push-pull operation usually using a cab control car on the east end, the loco on the west. (at least that's how I've seen it on the Port Jefferson line)
-Hank
If you want to get down to it Hank, the usual LIRR practice is having the cab control car facing west and the locomotive facing east. Only on rare occasions have I seen the loco on the west end providing propulsion. That only happens when the train is bracketed by Dash 2's.
The only diesel line I've ever ridden is the Port Jefferson, and like I said, they had the loco on the west end when I rode it.
-Hank
All of the Bi-levels were coaches there was no cab cars in the consist. Just one note...While it did NOT run with the Cannonball drumhead on Friday, I'm told it will next week? I can't figure how they will find room for it on the DE30.....Mark
Maybe they will fabricate a holder that hangs in the coupler of the
trailing engine -- like the freight roads do with a FRED.
[ his raises another question. On the LIRR all equipment always faces
the same direction. How was the DE30-AC at the west end pointed? If the cab faced west, I wonder how they turned it. ]
There are many places the LIRR can turn equipment, from the Montauk Cutoff (goes from West Main line to East bound Lower Montauk just east of HP Ave), to the Belmost spur, to the diesel shops, to a wye at Montauk, etc. (What other wye's or loops does the LIRR have?). The Oyster Bay turntable is no longer operational :)
Anyways, all the equipment doesn't always face the same way, even for "regular" moves -- i.e. push-pull trains with a GP38 or MP15 at each end will usually have each loco pointing away from the consist, etc.
The coaches, though, generally stay in the same direction, which is facing west (A end towards New York). I've gotten onto the old push pull cars, and it's a strange sight when it's backwards. Everyone looks around and kinda says "hmm, what's different here". The main noticable difference is that the three-seat benches are normally on the north side, and the two-seat benches on the south.
[ [ Cannonball had nine bilevels ]
Which brings up another point--just one locomotive? Do those new beats
have so much power they can pull that much weight and still make the
schedules without help. ]
I think they're using 2 locos for the Cannonball. Theoretically, they should be able to get away with less, as the locos are 3000HP each, as compared to 1500 for the MP15 or 1800 for the GP38s. And, I think they use one GP38 to pull 8 cars all the time on Port Jeff and Montauk trains..
But the new Bilevels are probably a lot heavier than the Pullmans, and there is probably alot of power going to HEP.
The HEP is supplied from a separate engine, which is behind the prime mover inside the DE30's. So there would still be, theoretically, 3000 horsepower available for traction.
BTW, the GP38-2's were 2000 horsepower, not 1800.
Metrolink in southern California (as well as Amtrak) has the same setup on tgheir F59 and F59PHI locos. They all had 12V-149 Detroit Diesels when built but it is my understanding that Metrolink changed their units to a Cummins powerplant to turn the HEP generator.
[ BTW, the GP38-2's were 2000 horsepower, not 1800. ]
Thanks -- I dunno where I got that # from, but they do indeed have a 2000HP 645E 16cyl prime mover..
[The HEP is supplied from a separate engine, which is behind the prime
mover inside the DE30's. So there would still be, theoretically, 3000
horsepower available for traction. ]
Hmm, now I was pretty sure that the 3000HP 12-710 prime mover ran just one main generator, although there were separate inverters for both traction and HEP.
[ Metrolink in southern California (as well as Amtrak) has the same
setup on tgheir F59 and F59PHI locos ]
If you look at EMD's web pages at http://www.gmemd.com/locomotives/pass/f59phi/ and http://www.gmemd.com/locomotives/pass/de30ac/ , you'll see that they do mention the separate HEP engine for the F59, but do not mention it for the DE/DM 30. Seems to me that if they did do that, the darned things would be quieter in the station, since the prime mover would be able to truly idle, instead of needing a fast idle for HEP.
[ Cannonball had nine bilevels ]
Which brings up another point--just one locomotive? Do those new beats have so much power they can pull that much weight and still make the schedules without help.
Just a week or so ago I saw a coventional Sunday nighter blasting through Babylon with 3 locomotives, 9 coaches and 5 parlors.
We all know that the J/M/Z is one of the oldest routes in the city. Since that is the case, passengers are afflicted with slow speeds that are not associated with the other lines (A,C 2,3,4,5 lines). What can be done to alleviate this obstacle?
Well, I proposed a total rehab of the whole line from 121st Jamaica Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue. For instance, the MTA should demolish the whole route replacing it with 21 century standards. As a result, higher speeds will be achieved (55/65 miles hr). It should be built as a 4 track line inoppose to three track as it currently is. Passengers over using the A/E lines will no longer have to because of this improvement.
Express Stops from Essex Street:
Essex Street
Myrtle Avenue
Bway Junction (Exp uses Jamaica Ave. while the local use Fulton St.) (Connection b/t the overcrowded A line)
Woodhaven Blvd (Connection b/t new line from Roosevelt Avenue)
Sutphin Blvd (Connection b/t the over crowded E line to Midtown)
Jamaica Center
Other proposals:
J/Z (K) extended to Queens Village; using the LIRR trackway.
E extended to John F. Kennedy Airport via Guy R. Brewer Blvd.
F extended to Little Neck Parkway via Hillside Avenue.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The T.A has slowed down all the lines by way of modifying the propulsion system and placing more grade time signals into service
(wheel detectors also). There is no way they will tear down existing structures for the purpose of speeding things up.
Replacement is a stupid idea, except between Cypress Hills and Eastern Parkway. Now if you do replace, better to do it as a subway.
To expensive. Besides, I'm an advocate for elevated lines.
You and me both.......... Just make the J and Z turn on Jamaica Av after Eastern Pkwy........
Where did you get 2nd Avenue Local from Q express? You suppose to be running express via the Queens Blvd line. I'm only in my 20's and I don't expect to see 2nd Avenue service by the time I croak.
Same as the N Bway Express/4Av Express............
The Q will never run express along the Queens Blvd line. The Q is designed to run along Second Ave. and down Broadway if and when the 2nd Ave. line gets built.
[The Q will never run express along the Queens Blvd line. The Q is designed to run along Second Ave. and down Broadway if and when the 2nd Ave. line gets built. ]
Whose design is that? I think the plans are for the Q to run to Queens Blvd., probably as a local. If there are "long-term" plans that say otherwise, I'd like to know where they come from.
I had the impression that the train planned to run on upper 2nd Ave. and then west on 63rd St. would likely be the "Y" train, but I can't really put my finger on why. Anyway, none of us are likely ever to see such a train.
The 63rd st. line was designed to have Broadway trains (the Q or another line) serve 2nd Ave and 6th Ave. trains going to Queens. There is another platform behind the wall at Lexington Ave where the tracks from Broadway come from.
No Broadway Q line will ever run to Queens. If the Manhattan Bridge closes the 6th Ave tracks when the connection opens in 2 years a new line will probably be instituted running along Queens Blvd and 6th Ave (I think the letter V has been set aside for this line). If the 6th Ave tracks remain open it will probably be the Q, operating along 6th Ave. But no definate decision has been made.
If both sides of the bridge are open, or even just the south side, the Q will operate over Broadway, not 6th.
I know that. But it won't go to Queens. It will end at 57 street, until the 2nd Ave. line gets built.
Like I said before, why not extend it to Lex-63 when the connector is open?
3TM
P.S. Chris, how about C train Chris? :):):):)
Nahhh. Choosing a lightly used local train wouldn't "express" my desire for the MTA subway system properly.
How about Culver Chris? Canal Street Chris? Concourse Chris?
3TM
Too long, I like shorter names.
> Too long, I like shorter names.
Well the one you picked hopefully isn't meant to confuse anyone - we already have a well known "subway-buff" contributing to SubTalk. Maybe out of respect you should choose something else.
-Dave
Just when I thought I had one ...
Oh, well :)
What's wrong with just using your name? Lots of other people do it...
-Hank
[ What's wrong with just using your name? Lots of other people do it... ]
I've tried using my name, but it never seems to operate the brake valve as well as a handle...
(duck).
QUACK!
-Hank
Rim Shot!!!!
(duck)
Why a duck?
[ (duck)
Why a duck? ]
Good point. I guess ducks don't work as well as handles either.
Makes me wish I had saved some of those posts from nyc.transit last month when this came up...
-Hank :)
Yeah, real names, like Intentionally left blank. (Yes, yes, I know who you are.)
I foyu know who I am, then you know why I do it...
I'd use my real name to post from work, if I weren't using a shared computer. I use my real name from home, and I sign my messages from here all the same. No hiding for me!
-Hank :)
Chris? It's so....so....boring
Subway Nut
(is anyone else using THIS name??)
lol
No, but people may not take you seriously.
-Hank :)
PS Hank isn't boring?
Hmmmm, I guess it's back to Chris
Not that I know of, but it describes all of us... ;o)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I remember correctly those handles were only in
some of the old IND trains, not all. Am I right?
Anyone remember?? Also I remember on those trains
the conductor had to climb onto 2 ledges (1 from
each car) between cars to open & close the doors!!
I saw conductors open/close doors on the R10 that way. Very scary.
This is getting off the original topic, but since you brought it up:
Those were the external door controls, also known as trigger boxes. I used to get a big kick out of watching the conductor do his thing up there. Actually, until the R-15s came along, all remote door controls were externally mounted except on the BMT standards. The Triplexes had both external and internal door controls, but the internal controls could be used only if a Triplex was running by itself and not in a train.
If I remember correctly those handles were only in
some of the old IND trains, not all. Am I right?
Anyone remember?? Also I remember on those trains
the conductor had to climb onto 2 ledges (1 from
each car) between cars to open & close the doors!!
I saw conductors open/close doors on the R10 that way. Very scary.
This is getting off the original topic, but since you brought it up:
Those were the external door controls, also known as trigger boxes. I used to get a big kick out of watching the conductor do his thing up there. Actually, until the R-15s came along, all remote door controls were externally mounted except on the BMT standards. The Triplexes had both external and internal door controls, but the internal controls could be used only if a Triplex was running by itself and not in a train.
Here's an idea,
The Q could have still ran on Broadway as an express via
the Canal St. switches I always mention. It could still go
to Queensbridge, but would have to terminate at Whitehall
St. during rush hours since there are already three trains
through the Montague tunnel(N,R and M).
Then during middays(or weekends, I don't know how busy the
Brighton line is during the weekend) run the Q through the
tunnel and it can access the Brighton line via the direct
switches at DeKalb.
Now would this propose a problem for the West End line?
Does it need the M at rush hours? If not, that can go as
the Brighton express when the Q can't.
If the West End express is needed that much, you could use one of the unused designations(the rush hour W for West End?) and turn it back at 36th St(though it would be tricky) or you could even get away with it at DeKalb(via the unused south side bridge tracks, but it may not need to go that far).
This way, Broadway gets an express, the Brighton line keeps it's express and gets one on the weekends, though it changes northern destination on time of day, and the West End line could keep it's rush hour express.
Looks good on paper, as is said, but it probably wouldn't work.
Just change the current 6th Av. Q to "V", and then run the Q down Broadway to Whitehall, or maybe put in double crossover coming into the Canal St. exp. tracks, making that a terminal until the bridge opens.
One of the reasons I proposed putting the Q back on Broadway was to eliminate having three expresses on the same track.
Unless the B or D became a local.
That would still cause problems on Chrystie
The Y would probable be for the 2nd Av line below 63rd. When the 2na Av line above 63rd opens, it will be an extension of Broadway service.
If the bridge is like now, they might use the W, and cut it off arond 34th (like they did for the shuttle). Or they might send the W to Astoria, and then be justified in having the N go express. Instead of merging back into the local (the reason it doesn't go express now), it would continue to the new line. If the bridge is fully open or fully closed, then between the N and Q, one would go to Astoria, and the other to 2nd Av. If the Bway side of the bridge is open only, it would be both of the Brighton trains, Q, and D(most likely renemed "W")
You expect to see it post-mortem? Anyway, I believe that it's not right to make predictions that far into the future. It's safe to say that the Second Avenue line won't be done in thirty years, because even if all-of-a-sudden tomorrow, the required legislative bodies approve the line, it would take that long to get it done. Do you think that the line will be approved within the next five years even? After that, political climates can change. Who's to say that some scientific innovation won't make you immortal?
I went to Washington's Union Station for lunch. I saw E60 602 hauling
a bunch of mailcars and coaches on Track 17. I thought it was the Mailtrain #13. When I check a computer screen for train crews, it said #13 was on Track 27. But the train on Track 17 showed "DHD."
I asked a crew member about the meaning of DHD, but he did not know it. Then I went to Great Train Store to ask the same question. A clerk nicely told me that DHD stands for "deadhead train."
A deadhead train occurs when a station is short of coaches or railcars. It provide extra equipment to that station to fill up the need. It is not on the Amtrak schedule.
This is the first time I hear about the deadhead train.
Chaohwa
Deadhead trains have been around since the dawn of RR passenger service. As the clerk indicated to you, they are used to move empty passenger equipment from one location to another. In the steam days, this was common practice on runs from New York to Florida, where seasonal traffic was primarily in one direction; the Atlantic Coast Line joint service trains from New York to Florida, for example, had long trains in multiple sections southbound but only one train northbound on each schedule during the early portion of the winter travel season. The remaining equipment would be returned northbound on deadhead trains. Amtrak, as far as I know, only follows this practice where it owns the tracks; otherwise, it just keeps the full consist and either keeps some of the cars closed or doesn't pack the coaches and sleepers full on the more lightly travelled run. This is done because they don't own the tracks, and also because of the limited amount of motive power they have available.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The same term is used in the airline industry. When a crew (pilots or flight attendants) are in one city, but travel to another to meet their assigned flight, they are "deadheading" or known as a "deadhead crew."
Crews are grateful for the opportunity to fly that way. But one should avoid calling them 'grateful deadheads.' :-)
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where does the term 'deadhead' come from anyway? I'm sure Garcia has nothing to do with this.
Deadheads are almost always present on MNCRR's off peak trains...If you have an employee id, it is a perfect place to take a nice dark quiet nap.....
I think they are called dead heads because they always run in the front, or right behind the locomotive, atleast thats how MN does it.
Speaking of deadheading, wasn't it common practice for Banker's Specials to do so over the Manhattan Bridge back in the pre-Chrystie St. days? What about Culver and West End Short Line trains?
Since I've been concerning myself with the other lines, I completely overlooked the need to improve the N Broadway Local which I represent.
Clearly, if the N line is to compete with the other lines, it must be schedule to come more often. If that means cutting back the M and R lines, so be it. The N line is so overused, one wonders why the service is so shabby.
These are my suggestions:
During Rush Hours, the N should be schedule to run every 3/4 minutes. On the other hand, the R which is under utilized should be schedule for 7 minutes. While the M should run every 10 minutes.
When standing at the 59th Avenue station, two N's should arrive at that station before a R train (a ratio 2/1). Not its current arraignment - back to back.
Can the N be a broadway express. Maybe when the Bridge is reopen. (However, I hope the Q doesn't effect our running time). Until then, the local running time isn't that bad in Manhattan.
I also propose a decrease in the running time on the #7 (7's run 5/1 of N trains). It is one of the reasons the N is so crowded when it enters the 59th Street/Lexington Avenue station.
Note: The reasons passengers prefer the N over the 7 after Queensboro Plz, that is, the next station is the connection with the fast 4/5. The 7 just can't compete with N, 4, 5 to time square.
Possible connection to LaGuardia Airport only if its is coupled with one of the 6th Avenue lines from 41st Avenue. Until then, I don't suggest it - too crowded.
Comments from N riders only.
What kind of handle you have calling yourself N Broadway Local? People have criticized me for the name The Rail Historian. I will respect yours however, I'm sure you are not a N train running Local on the Broadway BMT!!! Trains can't write on Subtalk unless your train has a microprocessor connected the Internet.
Rail Historian,
I am indeed a subway train. why? You don't like the N train (me), Historian?
New York City Transit
Going Your Way
No you mean
New York City Transit
Going out of your way
Some questions:
1.- Where is 59th Ave?
2.- The only place the N is overused is between Ditmars and Lexington Ave. Why do want to increase service to a ridiculous level for the good of only 8 stations?
3.- A decrease in service on the 7? That line is standing room only for about 18 hours of the day. How can you justify this idea?
4. - < The reasons passengers prefer the N over the 7 after Queensboro Plz, that is, the next station is the connection with the fast 4/5. The 7 just can't compete with N, 4, 5 to time square> The 4 and 5 go to Times Square? Did I miss something about the service change? Travel time from Queensborough Plz to Times Sq is about the same on either line and the 7 makes for a more convenient transfer.
5.- What means ?
Alex L., an N line Conductor
Number 5 above should have read -- 5.- What means < coupled with one of the 6th Avenue lines from 41st Avenue.>?
I hate R and #7 riders, they always complaining. How much do you want?!
People choose the N, because it goes to more important places than the R, 7, 4/5/6 put together.
Give a little
N Broadway Local
Like Where!!!!!!!
4: Yankee Stadium, Fordham University
5: Bronx Zoo, Brooklyn College, Co-Op City
6: Lenox Hill Hospital, Pelham Bay Park, City Island via Bx29
7: Shea Stadium, US Open, Worlds Fair, Hall of Scince
N: Coney Island
What is your point?????????
Alex,
All you have is hate for the average N rider who have to suffer from delays and crowded trains. Give a little #7, R, M riders. We want to get home comfortably too.
And, by the way, you mentioned the 7 as being fast as the N. How can that be Alex? The next stop on the N is 59th Street/Lexington Avenue - connections with the 4, 5, and 6.
Not only the connections between the N and the 4/5/6 are close, the #7 is extremely slow from Queens Plaza to Grand Central. That is why everyone (stupid #7 riders) jumps on the N at Queens Plaza. As some of you know, the N is already crowded to compacity. This connection just makes it worse.
Another thing, Alex! You are absolutely wrong about the N not being crowded further than 59th Street. Because of its connection with westside lines (1, 2, 3, A, B, C, D, E, Q), 4/5/6 riders transfer to the N/R (R isn't as bad) lines. As a result, the N is crowded all the way to Union Square 14th Street station.
N Broadway Local
Okay, let's go to the timetables....Let's take an arbitrary time say 0800 on a weekday morning (I'll do am, not pm, this post would go on forever and it probably will anyway)....Here are the headways....
#7 Manhattan Bound at Queensboro Plaza...2 1/2 minutes
N Manhattan Bound at Queensboro Plaza...6 minutes
R Manhattan Bound at Queens Plaza.......6 minutes
Having worked the Irt and B Divisions(BMT & IND)as a conductor, motorman, dispatcher and now motor instructor, I have first hand knowledge. Let's take a look at some of your suggestions...
1-The R underutilized? Please take a walk downstairs from Queensboro Plaza to the Queens Plaza station and you will see every R train is just as crowded as every N train from Astoria and every #7 from Main Street. The whole idea of the 63rd St tunnel is to increase service on the Queens Boulevard Corridor. Every train has a swinging load.
2-2 N's for every R at 59th St? The timetable does not bear this out, it is closer to a 1 to 1 ratio. Having worked both the N & R as a conductor, 59th St Lex is a rough station. R trains believe it or not have heavier loads. The N train in Astoria services what 6 staions?, while the R services about a dozen.
3-N as Broadway express? Personally I would love to see a return of the Broadway Express but it doesn't make alot of sense right now. By the time the N and R arrive at 14th Street, they generally have seats available. Most people who want to get to the Wall Street and City Hall area from these 2 lines make the transfer at 59th Street for the Lexington IRT. Plus instead of making one merge at the cut south of Queensboro Plaza, now they would merge once again just south of Prince Street. The ideal is to move as few switches as possible. Crossing a switch takes more time than running the train on straight iron. And believe me, you don't save a lot of time going express as opposed to local from 57th Street to Canal Street.
4-Decrease the headway of the #7's? Obviously you have not ridden a #7 in a while. Every train has a swinging load. Let's not make matters worse.
5-Most passengers do not transfer from the 7 to the N at Queensboro Plaza so they can get to the Lexington IRT. The difference from Queensboro Plaza to 59th & Lex and Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central is about 5 minutes. Stand at the Grand Central #7 platform and count how many people get off the Times Square bound train and go upstairs to the IRT (not the street or Metro North). Most people only want to change trains once, not twice. Lexington IRT bound riders generally stay on their N or #7 until they have to transfer at Lex.
(Actually I wish that fellow from Operations and planning was looking in, he could probably give you hard numbers on these things such as turnstile counts and checkers and the various riding studies they do.
I don't want to ramble on, but guess what, none of us like the trains with a crush load, but Queens is rough. If they could realisticly increase headway and running times the TA would. One other thing I didn't touch on is car availability. I dare you to find an extra 10 car train (good cars, not Bad Order being held by the barn) to give you some extra service.
With an open Manhattan Bridge, the express connection WOULD be Straight Iron and would actually simplify things between DeKalb and Pacific. No part of your post even bothered to mention the needs of Brooklyn riders and how much they would save (if going to Midtown) bypassing downtown (Brooklyn AND Manhattan) and going express via the bridge.
Since the D and the N/Q both go to 34th Street, which one will arrive first? That, of course, when the Manhattan Bridge opens.
From Dekalb Avenue: Since the D and the N/Q both go to 34th Street, which one will arrive first? That, of course, when the Manhattan Bridge opens.
Let's look at it from a stop-per-stop perspective:
DN
DeKalb AvenueDeKalb Avenue
Grand StreetCanal Street
Broadway-Lafayette14 Street
West 4 Street34 Street
34 StreetAlready been there
In addition, the N route is more direct.
When I actually see the Broadway side of the Manhattan Bridge open, we will discuss that. For now though running the N express down Broadway doesn't save much time and operationally creates less confusion. As for Brooklyn riders N trains run on an 6 minute headway coming out of the Sea Beach and then have to merge with the B at Pacific, and then the M has to merge with the R at 36th St as well. Mind you the West End gets two services (and this is a political clout subject) during the rush hours. It is not feasable to run either of these services express on the West End because there are work trains and the collector and the garbage train still on the way home and they meander along 3/4 track.
If you ask me the best solution is speeding the trains up once again and letting us become rapid trainsit once again.
(By the way, I would love to see the N run over the Bridge and express up Broadway again.)
Willy B is used all the time and of course it stands for the Williamsburg Bridge. Did you know that a gorilla in a zoo is called Willy B? He is also famous. I think we need a list of Subtalk abbreviations like BTW and others. Sometimes it is difficult to understand the postings.
The abbreviation for By The Way and others are standard internet shorthand and don't need to be repeated here.
I meant that there's no reason to list them here. Not that there's no reason to USE them here.
Is your handle a pun on Eugenius Outerbridge, the person for whom Outerbridge Crossing was named?
I've heard this name before, I didn't invent it and it did a appear to be a pun of the name. If the inventor of this name feels that I shouldn't use it then i won't
Well, Mr. Outerbridge has long since passed on, so I don't think anyone would object.
And I don't anyone could trademark "Eugenius" ;-)
Sure, you could; but I don't think you can copyright it.
You're right, you could trademark "Eugenius," but under what category?
"Eugenius, quality web postings since 1999?" ;-)
I've made web postings since 1996 (I don't think I made postings in 1995) but not under Eugenius!
Maybe, but not here; SubTalk opened on 2/27/1997. :-)
-Dave
So that's why it's not Outerbridge Bridge:)
No, that's why it's not the Outer Bridge, which is how the press usually get it.
-Hank
Yes, certain abbreviations are standard on the Internet, but what about subway-specific terms and abbreviations? The FAQ here is fantastic, but I've always thought SubTalk could use a glossary of some sort.
There are certain abbreviations, like OPTO, CBTC, MVM, BART, MUNI, BSS, etc. that I have learned since being here, but it took me while to figure them all out. I couldn't really participate in a lot of discussions at first because I didn't know what everything meant.
For people new to the board, it would be great help if they could just look up a term or abbreviation when they didn't know what it meant.
I know what Dave will say to this - that suggestions come easily but volunteers do not. I'd be happy to work on one myself, but I'd need help - I have yet to learn what SMEE stands for, for example. It is used all the time, but I've never seen anyone spell it out. I would have asked, but this board has a history of heavy criticism of people who ask 'stupid questions'...
Which is a good reason to make a Glossary. Feedback on that idea? Dave: what do you think?
I think GOH means "General Over Haul"
But what does "GO" mean like a "GO weekend"?
It takes a while to learn the lingo. I've been reading SubTalk since early last year but only started posting regularly a few months ago. In my reading(and other internet reasearch) I found out what I needed to know.
I'd be happy to contribute what I know to the "SubTalk Glossary of Acronyms".
"GO"weekend stands for General Order.This is a diversion from the normal operations of a particular line. It includes the work being done, dates and times involved, tracks out of service,diversions, supplement schedules in effect(diversion from regular schedule for the particular day)
Thank you. Another mystery solved.
Broadway El Steve; Don't feel bad. A few weeks ago I had to ask Steve what an RDO was. It turns out it means "Regular Day Off."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can answer these (even though you know them but others don't)
OPTO: One Person Train Operation
CBTC: Communications Based Train Control
MVM: Metrocard Vending Machine
BART: Bay Area Rapid Transit (subway in San Francisco)
MUNI: It's not an acronym, it's short for municipal and it's the agency that runs trolleys and busses in San Francisco.
BSS: Broad Street Subway (In Philadelphia)
GO: General Order (subway reroutes, etc.)
SMEE: I don't know either, but it's the system used by the R10-R42 and R62-R68A cars. They can all run in one train.
MUNI: It's not an acronym, it's short for municipal and it's the agency that runs trolleys and busses in San Francisco.
It's the commonly used abbreviation for the San Francisco Municipal Railway.
-Hank
Sorry, I didn't know the official name
No need to apologize, I wasn't sure myself if it was Railway or not.
-Hank
SMEE is the braking system used on all postwar cars from the R-10s thru R-42s and revived on the R-62s and R-68s. While I don't know exactly what it stands for, it features self-lapping brakes and is easier to master than the AMUE braking system.
How do subway personel pronounce the car numbers? Would 2438 be "two four three eight," or "twenty-four thirty-eight"?
I was just curious. Thanks,
Brandon
I've always heard them pronounced only as two number sets: "sixty-twenty-three" (6023), "seven-twenty-two" (722), "ten-oh-one" (1001).
I don't how people handle oddities like Boston where rapid transit cars started with zero--i.e., 0622--"oh-six-twenty-two"?
Or five digit number like on Amtrak: 10123. I'd say "ten-one-twenty-three" but I don't know if that's how it's done.
FWIW, that's the way printing proofreaders usually say numbers for clarity and ease of reading.
In Boston, the leading "0" is pronounced "oh." So 01000 (a Seashore car!) is "oh-one-thousand."
In Baltimore, we tend to pronounce car numbers as follows:
417 = four seventeen
264 = two sixty four
1164 = eleven sixty four
4533 = forty five thirty three
6119 = sixty one nineteen
7407 = seventy four oh seven
1096 = ten ninety six
5019 = fifty nineteen
i dont know about you guys but when there is a zero in the car number i would think it better to say all the numbers out
ex. 6019
would be six-oh-one-nine
but 1408
would be fourteen-oh-eight
Any body know what kind of work car and what they use for?
Peace Out
Meaney
SIR has one, I'm not sure what it's called, but the purpose of it is to align the track. A carriage with light beams shoots at reflectors on the vehicle itself, which then lifts and moves the track.
-Hank
Hank has the answer above. Hey, I missed your URL. Can you post it again so I can check out your train pictures?
Did you get a picture of Gel Applicator car #8885 up at 180th Street yard yet?
Wayne
I have a another picture of Gel Applicator Car #8885 and will put it on soon.
Peace Out
Meaney
It's a track tamper. It lines and guages the track.
Stef: I started to respond to your question about the bridge decided to vist Brennan's web site ,couldn't find Brennan then couldn't locate your query. Guess I was lost in cyberspace.
The bridge that you refer to is the "Macombs Dam Bridge" built in 1895. At one time it was also known as the "Central Bridge."
My mother told me that whenever the Yankees would play the Giants the teams would simply walk from one stadium to the other. Those were simpler times. Today they would have to use a fleet of buses and an army of police.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for that tidbit. I wasn't sure if there was one bridge or two bridges in the vicinity of 155th St. Couldn't find Joe Brennan's page? Check the transfer station here on our enchanted webmaster's site!
-Stef
As you all are aware,there is a long overdue rebuilding of City Hall park near Park Row,Manhattan taking place. There has been great effort to restore the park as original. Now this brings up the one and only entrance for the closed City Hall loop station. Does anybody out there know if there are plans to include a IRT kiosk to keep the park restoration original?
Plans called for the restoration of the City Hall station below. But as a security risk,the planned restoration was shelved. Something about some detained suspected terrorist in a nearby prison. If anything,erect a kiosk and prevent access to the station till thing blows over. When the park restoration is finished,it will be even a bigger expense to restore the kiosk. Sub-talkers! what is your position on this?
Bill, I'd love to see the kiosk restored, but given Hizzoner's concerns I doubt it will be. After all, then someone might know there's a City Hall station and want to visit it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What bugs me is the rebuild includes the sidewalks and entries to the City Hall BMT station. Considering the station is an island platform, and the booth is on the platform, why didn't they take the time to make the station accessible?
Instead, it'll wait until tha TA gets around to rehabbing the station, and if they happen to do it in the next 5 years, the city has done what it does best: Waste Money.
-Hank
ever since they removed the R68 from the "Q" to the "B",we have nothing but R38,R40 and R42. Will they ever send R44 or R46 to the Q, or are they waiting till the TA gets new cars. please let me know.
NO. the Q is a part time line therfore gets the older trains. as the trains get older they'll get bumped down to the Q. so you'll see an r46 on the Q in maybe 2006...
ps i did rode an r46 D train a few years ago. so there still maybe hope.
I remember during high school, there was a R46 D train(Coney Island bound) in passenger service at Ave. H.......
3TM
That was when they started with the cracked Rockwell trucks and they were used rush hours only on most 600' foot lines and the CC.
You're complaining about losing R68s and gaining R40s??? You should be rejoicing! Of course, I am partial to those lovable Slant R40s...
Wayne
Some people want the Redbirds gone in place of the R-142s because they're old, this is the first post wanting to get rid of the R-40s/42s for the same reason.
To be honest, I had the same feeling back in the mid-1970s about the R-7s/9s on the LL, but that was due in part to the MTA not maintaining anything back then so they broke down all the time. The other part was that gawdawful paint scheme they put on the 7s/9s when they went to the Eastern Division.
Well, at least they didn't paint EVERY R-7 and R-9 in that color scheme, just some of them. Dirt and grime seemed to stick to the R-7 and R-9 like glue, and soon after they were painted, they were filthy again and looked even worse than before. One modification made to the R-7/R-9 that really hurt was when they removed the wicker seats from cars 1500-1802. They DID leave them on the 1400 series cars. The fiberglas bench seats were truly uncomfortable. Ditto for the R10 and R16s.
As for car preferences, well, to each their own. The Slant R40 is definitely NOT everybody's cup of tea. My friend Ward who has accompanied me on several day trips can't stand them either - he says they look preposterous. I say fine! This world doesn't work without differences in opinion. Anyway, the R68 and R68A are very attractive trains, that is true, but they are somewhat slow. And as partial as I am to R40s, for mostly sentimental reasons, I must admit their seats are as bad as those on the old R-7s and R-9s. Anyway, I hardly ever sit down on an R40; I'm usually up at the RF window in the front.
Wayne
FWIW - I'm a major fan of R40s and their ancient relatives - the R1-R9s.
My recollection - the R40s have a more stable ride - the R1-9s bounced a bit more - but only to a point where you could sense speed a little better.
As for seating the R40s could never compete - the R1-9s had cane or wicker and padded seats and were better heated in Winter. I remember freezing my feet on R40s during the Winter and wishing for an R9.
Ah, yesh, you had to have experienced all of the above on the "E" and "F" lines way back when they both ruled there. I remember many an utterly miserable ride on a Slant R40 "F" train - winter, spring, summer and fall. Heat on in the summer. No heat in the winter. Lights half out. Lights dimmed by soot from the blowers. But the look of them was what got me. And once they got their Sumitomo GOHs, these ugly ducklings actually became somewhat beautiful.
As for the R-6s and R-7s, they were capable of breathtaking express speed, but they were supremely uncomfortable, even more so than the R40s, due to their many glitches and minor problems - no fans, some fans, heat in the summer (here we go again!) etc.. One of the strangest sights I remember seeing was in #1167. Half the fans were on, half were off, and the lights would go on and off on alternate sides of the car. This beast was on the "F" line back in 1973-74.
If you wanted maximum "bounce for the ounce", then the R10 was your train. Nothing bounced around like an R10 going full tilt.
Wayne
All things considered - the clear superior in appearence would be the R40. I think I liked them best as first delivered - deep blue doors - that classic slant.
But for nostalgia - I still prefer R1/9s.
It's been pointed out many times that the R1/9s were not well maintained. So I have all the more respect for the 40 or so years of service they provided without GOH.
As long as we're talking about sentimental favorites...
The R-1/9s fell victim to the new-cars-are-on-the-way attitude; consequently, they were sadly neglected in their later years. Riding in them was sheer joy, what with all the glorious sounds they gave off. Moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses, throbbings, and the most beautiful sound of all - the bull and pinion gears singing away at speed. What can I say - the aural aspect of subway trains reaches my ears first before the visual particulars. Oh, and if the first car was an R-1 or R-4 with no headlights, it was even more fun with the tunnel lights providing the only illumination.
You all know how I feel about the champions of the A line, the R-10s. Personally, I didn't think they rocked and swayed as much as some people do. A lot has been said about their noise level, but it wasn't that bad in those days. Nothing will ever top an express dash up CPW on an A train of those speedsters, although the slant R-40s came mighty close. I did notice one thing: the sound of the door locks as the air escaped was the same pitch as their compressors, A flat.
As for R-68s on the Q, with all due respect, I feel that line is better off without them. The slant R-40s are quicker and make good use of that advantage on the Brighton line. I did get lucky once or twice with the R-68s when they were there and got trains with the half cab facing out. Too bad they don't do that anymore. Come to think of it, the R-68s did run faster before that ill-fated modification was done to eliminate field shunting.
[If you wanted maximum "bounce for the ounce", then the R10 was your train. Nothing bounced around like an R10 going full tilt.]
Also, if you wanted to go temporarily deaf, the R10 was your train.
I say, keep the Redbirds until they die of cancer. I had a dream about them last night, and that I greeted them the way I would talk to my 10-month-old nephew: hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds. That's what I did last fall, and that's what I'll do come October during my Ride the Redbirds excursions.
Let me know when you'll be in town! I'll schedule a day trip and maybe we can get a ride on that #7 or maybe an R38 on the "A" or (if it's a weekday) maybe a Slant R40 on the "Q". The hot dogs at Nathan's are waiting...
Wayne
What's the likelyhood of catching a better train at Far Rockaway on a weekday? My use of Better Train should be obvious (If you don't get it, it means R-38). I'm going to that line over again because I used to ride the R-44 there. I'll also be taking the LIRR.
I'm flying into LGA at about 2 PM on Monday, Oct. 25, and will be in the city until Friday morning. One day will be spent in Jersey with my sister and her kids, most likely Tuesday or Thursday. Wednesday the 27th would probably be our best bet, especially if there is anything planned for the 95th anniversary of Day One (Lo-Vs on the 42nd St. shuttle, perhaps?). I'm setting that day aside for some serious subway riding, particularly Redbirds; however, anything goes. Hopefully, the Q and its slant R-40s will be running express on the Brighton again. Why on earth was the express track reworked AGAIN?!? Was there a problem with the welded rail?
Thanks for the offer! I wonder if we'll talk more about music than subways.
Nothing is wrong with the new welded rail. They are currently replacing the older, worn out parts of the express tracks.
Thanks for the clarification. Weren't the express tracks completely redone not too long ago? I rode on a Q in October of 1997, and the express run from Prospect Park to Church Ave. was smoooooooth. The rest of the way? Well......
OK, October 27th it is! I will either take a sick day or a personal day. My boss knows I do field trips periodically, I'll just tell him I have another one. I took one July 21st, spending the day knocking around the Bronx IRT (and riding its wealth of Redbirds) with Dave and Mark. I've been known to start these trips EARLY, often leaving on the 6:32 or 6:43 train from Babylon, so I'll be in town for the day.
Five rolls of film to boot.
How's about a morning #6 Express run from E177th-Parkchester to 3rd Avenue at the RF window of an R29, R36ML or R36WF? The afternoon could be a perfect time to grab a "Q". And we MUST run the 7th Avenue from Chambers to 96th aboard an R33 #2.
Wayne
You picked a good day for a field trip. July 21, that is. A red-letter date in my life if there ever was one. I think you know what I'm referring to.
Anyway, we can work out the details privately. BTW, I always include a West Side IRT express jaunt whenever I'm in the city, along with the obligatory CPW joyride on an A train. I was also planning to take a 5 up to Dyre Ave after seeing how fast it can go up Lexington Ave. I will have my camera with me as well.
And if they do end up running the Lo-Vs on the shuttle, I will be there!!
And I despise those R40's. The R68 is a vastly superior car, from a passenger's standpoint. Yeah, they're sluggish, but I'll take them over R40's any day.
Definitely the chairs are better! R-68 seating is second only to R-44 seating in comfort.
So, might you say that newer cars(R-44,46,62,68) reflect the desire to get you there in comfort instead of get you there with speed?
From what I read, it seems that cars like the R-38's, R-40's or WF cars were fast but not so comfy. Now you've got your R-68's. Slow as the dickens, but with comfy seats.
Which do you think is more important?
Speed, speed, and more speed. This whole business of no field shunting has taken the rapid out of rapid transit, IMHO.
I feel people want both. Speed and comfort. To prove the point here in Philly our M-4 cars are fast and comfortable. Another example is the PATCO High Speed line. As I said before it is a shame but the powers that be in the NYCTA just don't beleive in having fast subway trains anymore. I have quite a few of Marks subway videos and you can see cars on city streets that are going faster then the El trains above. And were talking city traffic.
I stand on subway trains almost without exception at the railfan window unless I'm exhausted, so comfort hasn't been much of an issue. I have my own feelings about the MTA's philosophy regarding speed which I'll keep to myself.
For me it's comfort, I'm never in such a rush that I would want to sacrifice comfort for speed.
Wait a minute. Do people really find R-68 seats more comfortable than R-38 seats? (Not R-40 seats -- those are truly evil.) The older seats fit the shape of my back much better, and I'm not forced to adapt to somebody else's body size. (And they're not painted colors that give me a headache.)
I prefer spppppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeedddddddddddddddd over comfort!
A Express To Far Rockaway is one of my favorites.
N Broadway Local
if its an R68 you want then ride the D. If the Q line is operating R-32-40m-42 then ride the D its only a local train and the time saved is only 5-7 minutes. 9 times out of 10 these two trains are back to back after Prospect Park right up to Rockerfeller Ctr.
I assume you have R32's on the Q, not R-38's.
The Q is a part time line, it gets the cast offs.
Also they won't get R 46's because they are all handled by Jamaica Barn. Maybe if the Q goes through 63rd Street and out to Continental will they receive the R 46s.
I recollect that some of the southern Brooklyn BMT el lines (West End and Culver, even in the 1950's (maybe earlier?) had railings with "walkways" along their outside tracks. They were built presumably for workmen to use, when a train went by. If I am correct, I recollect from photos of the really old els in Brooklyn and Manhattan that there were no such safety features, and the outer track was at the edge of the elevated structure.
How did did repair and maintenance people safely work on those els without any such walkways with railings? When were they required (and existing els upgraded)?
I also recollect that the BMT Brighton line, from West 8th St. double-deck structure to past Brighton Beach, had no walkways and railigs in the 1950's. The only extensions beyond the track edges on that line were at signals, where there were short sections of walkways with railings. The curve and descent of Brighton trains from the upper level towards Ocean Parkway were interesting, as was the curve from Brighton Beach towards Sheepshead Bay. It was also strange to be standing on Coney Island Ave. and see a Brighton local approaching Brighton Beach and go through the curve on a tilt towards the street with no railing! Even more interesting was seeing a train switch from the express to the local track just about over the CIA ("aiming" towards the street below, and then continue on that unprotected curve into BB station).
When were they finally added to the Brighton el? Why so much after they existed on the West End and Culver? I'd imagine with safety considerations, tey would have been added to all el's long before the 1950's.
Mike Rothenberg
Does the MTA actually update their web site? There was no notice today posted either on the web or at the stations that the Southbound C was skipping stations between Utica Avenue and Broadway-East New York due to track work (the information came via an announcement from the conductor AT Utica Avenue). Also, the schedule information, on the MTA web site, for the C trnin does not reflect the fact that there IS weekend service in Brooklyn. What's up?
Referring to note about lack of notice.
Check out the MTA schedules on http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/ and see the mess of most of the C line schedules.
Can someone in town call the line manager and post his response on Sub-talk?
Some other schedules are also in a bit of a mess. The 'F' was only posted on-line last week for the first time since April, and in two sections!
A: The Map hasn't been updated since at least January
B: According to them, the B makes no longer goes to 168th St, but doesn't stop in Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn
C: They have the D line stations and schedules for either the F or Q(I can't recall which)
D: THEY STILL HAVEN'T FIXED THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE!!:):):):)
They haven't updated the bus schedules and they haven't updated the changes with line managers.
But the data for the C-train was wrong.
The work shown was only on the A-train and then it said it was going to be at night only.
When the Williamsburg bridge reopens, will all of the R40m and R42 return to ENY yard or reamin put?
They are supposed to return.
Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then I wont get a chance to see them on the Q line......... I had a chance this summer too
Maybe the R-42/32 mix will wind up on the M. That I'd like to see. I also wonder when the clearance testing for the new trackage will begin. Looking forward to see them test 75 ft. equipment on the rebuilt curve.
That train will probably be taken apart and all the cars assigned back to their original lines. I would assume all R40m/R42's would be put back onto the J/M/L/Z lines.
FWIW, I think all R42's should be assigned to the E line and the L line should be completely R32 (until the R143 can take over). The R42 has slightly wider doors, easing loitering time in each station, and has an easily recognizable front-end route sign that can be seen a lot farther away than the little LED sign on the R32. The L line never runs with another line, so this problem wouldn't be a factor on the Canarsie line (all trains have to be L's, so who cares if you can't see that little sign). The E, OTOH runs on tracks with other lines (F, C).
I would agree with that it is running along 8Av with the C. Unless the F receives R32's again..........
It would be kind of neat to see the L with R32 cars.....
L: 14St-Canarsie
Do they have side signs on the R32's for the eastern division lines??
3TM
Yes, they have all the lines.
Yes, all IND/BMT cars are equipped with signs for all routes, A thru Z.
The doors on the 42's would have to be rebuilt. They are not used to the types of crowds on the main lines. With all the diverted passengers on the L line they are breaking down all the time.
Will the rest of the El be able to handle the 75ft cars???
The rest of the new bridge? As for the narrow straight span, I hear rumors that the cars rock sideways more, but I don't know about that. The rumor that they were wider was just disproved.
Then there's the curves. Crescent is the one that is completely forbidding. Myrtle looks about just as tight, and a bicentennial fantrip (with the bicentennial R-46's) was said to go to Metropolitan, but maybe they wouldn't go there with regular passengers.
I hope they take this time out to TEST them, instead of relying on rumors.
I would love to see them do what they do on the 5. Have a few new cars on the line for OPTO service. If they can clear the Myrtle curve, then they could also now run all the way to Bay Pkwy (6 car train)in rush hours (use pool of uncoupled cars Franklin shuttle will use). Nights and Weekends, 2 car OPTO shuttles. (I would rather have weekend service up 6th or 8th Av., but I hear nothing of any plan to do that)
Believe it or not, the R-68's have all the routes and destinations for the eastern div. (except for the replacement signs).
I thought there was a problem with the 75ft cars having problems in the Nassau tunnels??????
3TM
Another rumor. (tunnel lights) I saw an R-46 set in Chambers St. middle for a movie filming a couple of years ago.
What is the best and quickest way to go to Staten Island without taking the ferry?
I would probably be taking the F train from Jamaica. I know I could take the F, transfer to a B at Herald then get off at 36st, transfer to an R then take it down to 86th/4th ave in Bay Ridge. Then I could take a bus over to Staten Island.
I'm using a fun pass. Is that 86th station for the R in a bad area? Is Bay Ridge a safe area?
I usually don't go to Brooklyn that's why I'm asking.
I don't want to take the ferry because it's slow and crowded, and there's no A/C on there.
If you don't mind the long ride through the Montague St. tunnel, you can change for the R at Queens Plaza or 34th St. and just take it to 86th St. from there. There's no problem with the area.
There may not be any man-made A/C on the SI ferry but the breeze on the upper deck is just as good if not better. I like that ride almost as much as a Slant-R40 downhill with no GTs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Take the F to Queens Plaza, transfer to the R. Take the R to Whitehall and take the ferry. This will take less time than your suggested route as well as leaving you with easier access to SI buses, since they almost all go the ferry terminal. Your routing is only faster if you need to be near the bridge. As for A/C, go stand outside - there's always a strong breeze heading to SI.
It might be easier for you to take the F to 4th Ave, then transfer to the R train to 86th Street. It may not be the fastest way, but you would have to change trains only once. I have been down to Bay Ridge, it's a nice neighborhood.
I don't know if you've made the trip yet but, 86 th St. area is fine,
and the breeze and view from the ferry is finer (23 minutes long, not including boarding time).
Why do you need A/C on the Ferry??
As soon as you pull out from the slip, the ship generated wind alone is enough to cool off. I looked foward to my 20 min ferry trip. The hot heat/humidity would drop off once we got underway.
do what you want but i will just say that bay ridge is one of the nicest places in brooklyn
I THINK this has been discussed before, but...Why, exactly did the BMT,IRT (as private cos..)and the city ( as operator of the IND) never put headlights on their trains?? Why did it take until the 1950s until somebody at the TA realized that the subway mostly operates underground and in the dark, and that the trains might actually need headlights?? The H&M had headlights of some kind at the get-go, and most other underground rapid transit did too..... Did they think the tiny marker lights were sufficient, or was it a matter of money?? (not that he headlights make THAT much of a difference...)
They never though they were needed, and I agree.
Having stood at the front of probably thousands of trains without the headlights, visibility with just the tunnel lights was quite good without them. From the dark motorman's cab, it was probably even better.
Anyone authorized to be on the tracks had colored lanterns, more visible without headlights than with them.
Plus you didn't have the distraction and dark vision spoiling problems of oncoming trains' headlights blinding you.
I would rather ask why the decisions to install headlights was made.
I completely disagree. One of the first thing you learn in track Safety Training is that you can hear only one train at a time. Without headlights, you may never know the second one is coming. Besides, without headlights, the safety vest just don't work.
But the system operated safely for six decades without them.
You could drive around in car without working tail lights, and not get rear ended. Is it safe? no. Same thing here - yes, maybe the system DID operate without many incidents. BUT if the addition of headlights makes the system *safer* than it is worthwhile - you can't have too much safety.
For most of my experience in Boston, even though the trains have headlights, they are used on a limited basis and those that do use themm turn them out before entering a station. I haven't ridden the lines in two years but I think that is still the case.
What has always perplexed me was the fact that NYC train operators have no choice in the turning on or off of headlights. Except for a car I saw in the Transit Museum I forgot which one it was, there is a switch that says white and red light.
I know the LIRR have seperate switches on the M class cars for headlights and marker reds.
Eventhough the headlights are controlled by the reverser, the headlights can be turned off. The #22 circuit breaker feeds the headlights, tail lights and speed indicator. The train operators were actually ordered by supervision to drop the #22 circuit breaker during the day about a month ago during the power crisis on the J and M on the structure. They also had to operate in series speed.
I can't see why the headlights would have done much to conserve energy, aren't they low voltage(37 1/2volts)?. Operating in Series I could see using much less energy. I don't see car body lights turned off once a train is out of the tunnel done too often which could have saved plenty of power..
The headlights don't amount to much power. That's what happens
when non-technical people hand down technical decisions.
Plus people forget to turn the switch back on and you wind up with
trains in tunnels with no tail lights.
I remember seeing a Queens-bound E train of probably R-6s heading past the southbound platform at 42nd St. with the headlights of the last car still on. Oops!
As for being blinded by an oncoming train, while it could happen where there is a temporary absence of a crash wall between tracks, it would most likely occur on the original Contract One portions of the IRT, where there is no crash wall between the express tracks.
Once in a while on the Canarsie, the motorman would shut off the headlights just after leaving 6th Ave. on an 8th Ave-bound train. This happened only on trains of R-7/9s, not R-42s or BMT standards.
This is one of my pet peeves. Everytime we make something foolproof so T/Os and C/Rs canot make mistakes, when it fails, Car Equipment gets charged. Same with the new 'voting' system. If a bone-head T/O gets teamed up with a equally intelligent C/R and they both vote on the wrong side, guess who will get charged for the mistake?
I was just wondering if anyone knew what the final design of the R-142 looks like. There are two different designs on Bombardier's website. This is the first one, which I saw a while ago on the site:
This is the second one, which I only noticed more recently. It looks almost identical to the 110A:
Does anyone know which is the final design?
I look on the Bombadier site a couple of days ago and saw the bottom one myself. I want to know what the Kawasaki R142 look like. Is there a Kawasaki site where there a model of the R142?
What is the URL to the Bombadier website?
Thanks,
Brandon
Their name followed by .com
Click Here
I hope it's the first. Haven't we learned the hard way that a tiny electronic route display doesn't cut it? The first has a nice, big 5. (Also, the red and black front of the second looks kind of silly, IMO.)
I hope it is the first one as well. But the second resembles the R110A, so who knows??????
3TM
Did the NYCTA/MTA ever order prototype cars for new technologies like the R-110 A/B for other cars?
The R11 was a prototype for the new technology of using stainless steel cars. But that car was intended to be ordered in large numbers if/when the 2nd Ave. line opened. There also was a converted R9 used to test new technologies in an electronic PA system and flourescent lights built in the early 1940's (car 1575?)
I believe that was the R7A that was rebuilt to be the R10 Prototype.
-Hank
I believe that either in the late 70's or very early 80's the TA had a test train running on the Times Square Shuttle I vaguely remember hearing something about it when I was a kid
Early '60s - there was an automated train running on track 4(?). It burned in April(?) 1964. The cars, I believe, were modified R-22s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're curious about the automated shuttle, read: IRT Grand Central/Times Square Shuttle.
-Dave
Yes, my mistake. Never having rode the r1-9 cars makes tham all the same to me.
Well, that's forgiveable, since the R-1/9s did look very much alike, except for some minor cosmetic differences. 1575 looked like an R-10 after it was rebuilt, but mechanicaly it remained an R-7A and stuck out like a sore thumb when running in a train of sister prewar units.
All they have to do is use flip-dot's WITH the LED's. Then, you'd have maximum visibility underground (glowing LED, more clear than the rollsigns), and outside (flipdots, but bigger than on the R-32/38, of course). Just look at the new buses.
The electronic route display in front of the R-110A is a lot better than the R-32/8 crap. It's bright, big and even has the color of it's line. I hope it's the second one, or the first one with a digital sign.
It also looks like the IRT is going to lose it's railfan windows.
If the window on the door to the operator's cab isn't covered, it doesn't matter.
We know, we know. If there were an extra window into the cab, say to the left of the cab door, that would be acceptable.
A couple of weeks ago, a bus driver posted a message that he spotted a mixed train of R-32/R-42 cars at the Kings Highway station. On Thursday the 5th, I, too saw this train at about 6:30 pm. (Brighton bound) It's been somewhat elusive, since I take this line everyday, but I guess this oddball mixed consist is still around.........
Also, this mix was listed in this month's ERA Bulletin, (but on the N line) so it must really be true.
There is a mix train of 6 R32's and 4 R40M's running on the N line. I saw it on the Manhattan-bound express track at 59th St. last thursday morning at approx. 7:15 AM
What were the numbers of those cars?
Nick C
As of 8/9/99 10amish it was southbound on the N at Queensboro Plaza.
How much horsepower is a LIRR loco. Only the one with the front mount
engine has a prime mover right? The other only has a HEP.
The GP38-2's produce 2000 hp, the MP15AC's make 1,500 hp, the new DE30AC's and DM30AC's make 3000 hp. The Alco FA's and the EMD F7 power cars produce HEP for the coaches using a Penske engine/generator set. The original prime movers and traction motors have been removed. So if a train is bracketed by a Dash 2 and a MP15AC, the loco on the east end has the prime mover and the one on the west end has the HEP. On those occasions where the Dash 2 has to make a runaround because the speed control on the power pack is not working, both loco's are on the point.
Horsepower is ironic in that Watt invented it.
For everyone who wanted to ride it, the B is running express on the N line for the next three weekends from Fri night to early Mon morning.
36th St -- 59th St -- Coney Island
Oooooooohhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooo!
N Broadway Local
The BX lives!!! And no, not a 3-car set of BMT standards with a motorless trailer sandwiched in the middle, either.
They are two lines I hate the worse: The R (very slow - breakdowns) and the B (always gets priority at the Pacific Street Station.
N Broadway Local
8/9/99 9:05P
I saw one of those paste up notices about this and I could swear it included Kings Highway. Does this mean 36th st,59th st,Kings Highway,Coney Island?? I saw the notice at 34th St & 6th Ave.
Excluding yard spurs, are there any locations in the current system, other than the junction at the Myrtle and Broadway Lines, that main line switching require crossing of an active track to get to another line?
I know the old Manhattan Els were filled with such crossings and that the Lexington Avenue El track crossed both the Broadway Brooklyn Line (near Gates Avenue Station) and the Myrtle Ave El (near Grand Avenue), which was the last such junction abandoned?
I know and this probably doesn't count that on the Lenox Line, the 2 has to cross over in order to go to the Bronx
And the 5 has to cross the New Lots local tracks to get to and from the Flatbush line.
-Hank
Who designed that? A huge bottleneck, IMO. The 2, 3, and 5 all have to share a short section of track.
Trust me, It is no picnic during rush hours. Especially during the evening rush hours when the 3 and 5 come in simultaneously at Franklin. There is 1 out of 10 chance the 3 will go before the 5 at that crossing.......
3TM
Is the problem with all the crowding on the Lexington Avenue line one of unused capacity or simply too many people using the line?
I think it is the second one. When the 5 is not running, there is usually a crowd at Franklin waiting for the 4. I also think that the signal and track maintainers feel that it would be better to send the 5 first because a 2 is more than likely to be right behind the 3 and this would not cause delays along the Nostrand Ave. line.....
3TM
If you're talking about the portion which actually runs beneath Lexington Ave., the reason for all the crowding is because the 2nd Ave. line hasn't been built yet.
Actually the 2 line cross to go to Brooklyn not to the Bronx.
3TM
Although you were just asking about subway or el lines the LIRR Has something like Myrtle/Bway at Mineola where the Oyster Bay trains have to cross over opposite direction tracks on their spur.(which by the way is right on a RR crossing) W/B mainline trains often are held just east of the spur for the Oyster Bay train to switch over.
[Crossovers on the LIRR]
Also at Hicksville, Bethpage and Babylon. And at Valley Stream, Probably at other junctions I haven't thought of.
In fact, except for Jamaica and Winfield flyovers are probably the exception on the LIRR.
[ In fact, except for Jamaica and Winfield flyovers are probably the
exception on the LIRR. ]
The PW flies over the mainline east of Harold. That would be a pretty messy situation without the separation..
I was thinking Port Wash when I said Winfield. I guess I should've said Harold.
[ I was thinking Port Wash when I said Winfield. I guess I should've
said Harold. ]
Well, winfield has a flyover also, from the main line to the (now abandoned) Rock Beach branch. Does anyone know the status of the short tunnel portion, where Westbound Rock Beach trains used to go under the mainline? Riding down the mainline, you can see the ramps going down there, but does anyone know if the tunnel itself is sealed? Is it also filled? or is it still open? I'd imagine that if it was open, it would be filled with makeshift housing. I saw some of that under some of the overpasses on the Lower montauk on Friday..
I would say the Rockaway Branch junction is White Pot. Winfield is where the Port Wash leaves the Main. Actually, I don't think there are any switches there any more, the separation taking place nearer Harold.
What about at Divide Twr? AM rush and all the trains running wrong rail have some nice cross overs MainLine/PortJeff?
They have a flyover at Hillside (where the Babylon line goes off) and a flyunder where the Far Rockaway/Long Beach lines leave Jamaica.
Wayne
That's right, I almost forgot about the Far Rockaway branch that crosses over the Long Beach/Babylon tracks just east of Valley Stream station.
Doug aka BMTman
Plus the West Hempstead trains which stop at Valley Stream effectively cross two mains to get to the West Hempstead branch--going east they cross:
Long Beach Westbound
Babylon Eastbound
Babylon Westbound
in that order. If Long Beach trains use the Montauk (vs. Atlantic) line into Jamaica, they have a similar situation west of Valley Stream.
[ Although you were just asking about subway or el lines the LIRR Has
something like Myrtle/Bway at Mineola where the Oyster Bay trains have
to cross over opposite direction tracks on their spur.(which by the ]
The LIRR has this in many places. Also just as notable is Queens Interlocking, which controls the crossover of all eastbound traffic and westbound Hempstead branch trains. (i.e. west of the interlocking, it is 4 mainline tracks, east of the interlocking, it is 2 mainline tracks on the north, and 2 hempstead tracks on the south.
I think the original poster means what they call going "against the current", in which a (for example) westbound train branch train crosses the eastbound track to continue off to the left. The Franklin Avenue IRT doesn't meet this requirement.
The Loop in Chicago is full of these at every merger and split (Lake, State St. South, State St. North). I do not believe there are any in NYC, other than the Myrtle crossing off Broadway. Also, in Philadelphia, the northbound Chestnut Hill West line goes across the southbound main track.
Carl Rabbin is right in his description of 'grade crossing.' But in addition to Broadway/Myrtle, there's a grade crossing north of 135th Street on Lenox Avenue; Bronx trains coming into Manhattan cross the northbound 148th-Lenox Terminal track and vice versa.
Those are the only two live grade crossings on the New York system.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Another good example of an 'against the current' grade crossing would be the Brown Line/Red Line split just North of Belmont in Chicago (Clark Jct.).
At Clark Jct., a northbound Ravenswood 'L' train crosses over from track #4 (northbound outside track) to track #3 (northbound inside track) then accoss track #2 (southbound inside track) and track #1 (southbound outisde track) to gain entrance to the Ravenswood branch. This is all at grade.
It is an interesting junction, in that the cross-over from track #4 to track #3 (equipped w
At Clark Jct., a northbound Ravenswood 'L' train crosses over from track #4 (northbound outside track) to track #3 (northbound inside track) then accoss track #2 (southbound inside track) and track #1 (southbound outisde track) to gain entrance to the Ravenswood branch. This is all at grade.
It is an interesting junction, in that the cross-over from track #4 to track #3 (equipped with turnouts) takes the train onto track #3 for a short distance, then the crossing of track #2 and track #1 is a cross-over without a turnout (i.e. the trains can't switch to track #2 or track #1).
This grade crossing is a major bottleneck during the evening rush hour, as trains on tracks 1, 2 & 3, must be held in order to "line-up" a northbound Ravenswood move.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thank you, that is what I meant. Although it is also now more apparent the value of the IND design when one considers all the problems that even the "same way crossings" produce.
Does anyone know the New York City List of now removed Grade Crossings on the ELs
I assume you mean the train has to cross in front of opposing traffic--not simply switching between tracks in the same direction of traffic.
I seem to recall there was such a situation at 149th and Lex for #5 trains going from Lex to White Plains Road. Is that still there?
I don't ever recall a "crossing at grade" at 149th for the #5 to get to/from the Lexington Line. Everything there is grade separated.
Must be talking about the 2 grade crossing between 135 and 145Sts.......
3TM
I don't know if this couts, but the Blue line (light rail) in Los Angles crosses a Railroad spur at grade. I don't know how much the spur is used, but obviously enough to justify maintaining the dimonds.
There is a cross-over just north of President Street station on the Flatbush Line where the #2 and #5 trains must pass over the New Lots Line's #3 and #4 tracks.
Doug aka BMTman
The 2 doesn't have to cross anything. And the 4 doesn't need to be crossed. Of course, when the 4 runs with the 3 on the same track, the 5 isn't running so it's not a problem.
There were three grade crossings in Coney Island that lasted beyond the Lexington Avenue closing. East of West Eighth Street station on the lower level, Brighton locals and Culver trains had a grade crossing. That was eliminated as part of the recapture project that put IND Concourse service on the Culver.
And the West End and Sea Beach joined with a grade crossing north of the old two-track bridge across Coney Island Creek and another between the bridge and the Stillwell Avenue station (the four tracks on the ramp up to the station had incoming trains on the two west tracks and outgoing trains on the two eastmost tracks). Some years after the Creek was filled in, the crossing became four track and is now really two parallel two-track lines with connections. West Ends stay on the two west tracks and the Sea Beach stays on the two east tracks.
In the original configuration, a West End, for example, would leave track H (8), cross over to one of the two downramp tracks, go across the bridge, and then cross the southbound Sea Beach track to go to the West End structure. Sea Beaches would come up the ramp on either of the west tracks and cross to tracks A or B (1 or 2). Threading through all the switches was a lot of fun to watch.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The creek wasn't filled in. It's still a bridge, just four tracks and cannot open for navigation. It doesn't matter since anything small enough to navigate the creek would probably dissolve in it.
As long as the creek doesn't catch on fire....
Only in Cleveland....
-Hank
Go BROWNS!!!!!!!!!!!
3TM
The creek wasn't filled in.
Actually, it WAS filled in, but not at this point. Coney Island Creek used to run all the way to Sheepshead Bay; the portion between Shore Road in Sheepshead Bay and Shell Road was filled in many years ago.
anything small enough to navigate the creek would probably dissolve in it.
Now THAT'S a colorful and accurate description!
--Mark
the body of water between Shell Road and Shore Boulevard WAS filled in, but I think that at that time the whole thing was called the C.I. Channel, not Creek.
I heard that the R142/R142As have a capability to create 4, 5(normal) or 6 car units in the format of ABBA, ABBBA and ABBBBA.
If that is true, maybe one can expect to see them on the #7 soon, and operate 11 cars year round.
Nick C
They will be mats as delivered, as I understand it. There will be several other configurations other than the standard 5-car sets. I've posted the groups several times, and they are also on-line at www.bombardier.ca
-Hank
I think that there are supposed to be two 9 car sets(3train) and two 11 car sets(7train). I think that there are supposed to one 6 car set.....
3TM
We all know that the R30 did not have any A/C, but did they have type of heating system or was the window closed during the winter months?
3TM
All cars have heat, usually provided by large resistors under the seats. Som cars have overhead heat as well.
-Hank
We'll treat the R27, R30 and R30A as a single entity here:
Heating was manufactured by Midland-Ross, and located under the seats and in the plenum. Under-seat heating wattage ranged from 3340 watts to 3570 watts; plenum heaters H1 was 1140 watts, H2 & H3 were 570 watts.
Ventilation was six Westinghouse 23" axiflo blowers. R30 #8550 was equipped with six Vapor Corp. dual flow ventilating test fans.
As for the windows, most cars had their windows closed in the winter; I would assume this was the crew's job to check.
Above technical information courtesy of Passenger Car Data 1947-1968
Wayne
Are they going to be delivered in singles (similar to R62/R62A/R68/R68A), married pairs (like the R42s) or sets of 4 (R44/R46)....
BTW, 212 doesn't seem right, assuming that many of them are going to be used on the "L" and "M", both of which use 8-car trains...Joe listed on his web site claiming 216 on one page and 212 on another. Unless, if the "L" uses 10-car trains.....
My bet is that they will be numbered in the 3000s, something like 3011 to 3222 (or 3226, if 216 cars) or something on the thereabouts.
Is there a web site to look at the R-143 prototypes?
Nick C
Hey Nick, here is the site of R143 look like.
Peace Out
Meaney
That's a mockup. I'd expect the cars will come in married pair (2-car)configurations, as that will allow maximum flexability on the lines they run on. The eastern division of the BMT uses (maximum) 8-car trains, the rest of the IND-BMT system uses (maximum) 10-car trains. But they certainly may arrive in a combination of 4-car and 2-car sets. I don't think we'll see orders for single cars again anytime soon. The R62/68s were order as singles because the horrid maintainence that was performed when they were ordered assured the TA of maximum availability. With the maintainance problems disappearing over time, and car reliability increrasing dramatically, the cars are being linked together semi-permanantly.
-Hank
the 143's are to be 4 car sets.
Has anyone seen the R-110B lately?
Also, any sighting of #3006 and his mates, or is the group #3004-#3005-#3006 totally lost?
Nick C
I've been in town about 7 times this yer and I only saw them once at the end of February on an uptown A at 42nd Street.
Here's one. Why do some stations have signs reading "R-110B" hanging over the side of the ceiling?
[ Here's one. Why do some stations have signs reading "R-110B" hanging
over the side of the ceiling? ]
I think you're referring to the conductor's indication boards. I think that there are special ones for the R110B's, because since they are a different length (67'), the conductors end up in a different location. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but for 75' cars, the conductor ends up at about 300' (75*4), for the 60' cars, he ends up at 5*60=300'. For the 110B, he ends up at about 268' (67 * 4).
[ Here's one. Why do some stations have signs reading "R-110B" hanging
over the side of the ceiling? ]
I think you're referring to the conductor's indication boards. I think that there are special ones for the R110B's, because since they are a different length (67'), the conductors end up in a different location.,
Ah, the BMT's revenge (heh, heh, heh).
When the R27's came in, special car stop markers were installed for R-types. i.e., [8/R] in addition to the round or baseball diamond shaped BMT markers.
I don't recall whether they had these on the Eastern Division earlier for the R16's or whether they used the BMT markers.
There is a photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York of both types of markers, supposedly at Canal St. on the Nassau St. line. I'm sure the 6/R markers were added when the R-16s arrived at least, or even when those thirty R-10s were sent over.
< I'm sure the 6/R markers were added when the R-16s arrived at least, or even when those thirty R-10s were sent over. >
I don't know about the Eastern Division. I remember when the R-16s were the only post-war cars on the BMT, but have no relocation of "R" markers c.1957. Doesn't mena they weren't there--just don't recall.
But I distinctly remember them being added on the Southern Division around 1960.
Amazingly enough, there is a Conductor assigned to the R-110B for Tuesday, 8/10 at 0800. I don'y know why, but I would suggest that anyone interested look for it on the road tomorrow.
I was at Euclid on the A.M. today. No 110B, but plenty of R.T.O. Superintendents!
Anyone seen #1909 on either the #3 or GCT "S" recently? Saw a four car set, all with early 1900-numbers on them nine days ago.
Nick C
1909 is sitting on the scrap line at 207th St Yard right now. The car has a nice gash in her side following her derailment on Hunts Point Av on 11/24/96. The cause was a defective switch. 1716 (coupled to 1909) sustained some minor damage as well, but returned rather quickly.
1909's future is uncertain. Anyone here know if that car's going to be repaired and put back on the road?
-Stef
Oh, those R62s and R62A too - so very vulnerable to side-impact injury. Back after the HP incident occurred, I saw a very brief snippet of news footage, showing 1909 leaning against the curtain wall at about a 30-degree angle. No damage was visible - it had to be on the side away from the camera. Anyway - Stef would know this - the point of impact - was it through a window, door, or between? We all remember the awful damage done to #1437, 1439 and 1440 back in '91. #1440 didn't shear in half but it came damn close to it. The one wall was almost touching the other and the floor rose up to fold back the seats on one side. And #1439 looks like it took a very bad hit towards the #2 end judging by its bowed roof in the photo in the IRT Lexington section.
Wayne
Well, I didn't see the footage nor have I seen the car, but I thought that the car had a gash in an area below a window. What about it, Wayne?
A friend of mine has photos of the cars on the scrap line at 207th St. Let me do the research and I'll figure out what's going on with 1909. If the damage is severe, then I guess we won't see 1909 join her companions on the 3 anytime soon, nor will their be a linking of cars 1906-1910.
Question: If an R40 can be brought back from the brink of death, (4461/4260), why can't an R62 be repaired in such a manner? Perhaps parts of the wrecks from Union Sq could be used to repair 1909.
Just a thought.
Stef
The footage I saw was VERY brief; not more than five seconds, taken from what I presumed to be the end of the south end of the station, looking down the express track. I could not make out the unit number. It wasn't until it was posted here on SubTalk that I learned of it.
Anyway, it is more than likely a case of frame damage that has #1909 on her death bed. Any side or lateral impact will cause that (unless, of course, you're a BMT Standard, then it's the pillars or the curtain wall that will suffer). Now, #4461 and #4260 - the original #4260 has a very deep gash right ahead of the third door from the "A" end, cab (starboard) side. His nose was unscathed, but the curtain wall penetrated the side of the frame. #4461 suffered massive crush damage to the soft body parts for a distance of seven feet, six inches. Her anticlimber was damaged BUT this device absorbed the blow and distributed the shock evenly through the frame, which was not compromised. It is probably for this reason that the decision to salvage was made. #4664, the other car involved in the Williamsburg Bridge crash, was telescoped seventeen feet. The impact bowed and spread the frame outward, rendering it a total loss. A similar fate befell #8884. The body was not penetrated but suffered a fairly significant dent from roof to floor, and, again, the frame was bent.
They tried to move him but he was bent in such a way that it was determined he would hit platforms and walls if towed. Result: Scrapped on the spot and his widow is now a Yellowbird gel applicator car.
Subway necrology - what a fun science!
Wayne
You said it right! 8885 was moved out of 180th St Yard not too long ago. Anyone know where it headed to?
-Stef
Good question regarding 8885. Had to be after July 21, for she was sunning herself in 180th Street Yard that day. She doesn't run in the summertime; Gel isn't needed unless there's ice. If anyone sees her, please post.
Wayne
They sure don't build cars like the BMT standards anymore. They were indestructible. There is a detailed section in Subway Cars of the BMT about the carbody design of the standards.
Of course, the only thing that could hurt a Triplex was another Triplex...
I was surprised to find that in Chicago, the Washington, Monroe and Jackson subway stations are really just one long platfrom. The train just makes three seperate stops along the platfrom. Anybody know the history or rational of this rather unusual arangment? Is it used anywhere else?
The central business district (Loop) in Chicago is quite compact and rapid transit stops in this area are close together. The State Street and Dearborn Street subways both have continuous platforms downtown. It is quite user-friendly, since there are station entrances in every block on State and Dearborn, which eases pedestrian congestion. The State subway traditionally had offset loading berths for northbound and southbound trains, easing crowding on island platforms limited in width by street width. In short, it's a very functional design.
There is a precedent for this in Chicago. On the Loop elevated, platforms on adjoining stations were lengthened for longer trains and multiple loading berths many years ago. Randolph & Wells was joined with Madison & Wells and LaSalle & Van Buren was joined with Dearborn & Van Buren plus State & Van Buren. In the sixties, with fewer trains on the "L", the CTA shortened platforms and these connections were broken.
I know of no other city that did this. When the State Street subway was opened in 1943, the city boasted that Chicago had the longest subway platform in the world.
Did the fire on this car seriously impact linking up the French R-68s?
Last time when I was in NYC, there were some cars that were linked, but others were not, primarily on the D and N lines.
Where is #2579 sitting now? And has anyone seen #2576, #2577 or #2578 recently, or are those 3 all out of service because of #2579?
So much for linking 4 cars into a set....when one goes down, the other 3 are SOL. Remember 5282-5283-5285-5284???? Sounds like 5283, 5285 and 5284 are all SOL for now, unless if the Franklin Shuttle has the capability to use R44s and if the R44s can be used in pairs instead of 4-car units. Everyone can say goodbye to #5282, as that is very likely a goner sitting up at 207th.
What happened to 5282? I think someone mentioned it was in a derailement or something of that nature?
3TM
R44 #5282 (ex. #140) met his fate as the Eighth car of a southbound "A" train at 10:21PM on July 3, 1997 north of 135th Street Station when a switch closed as he rolled over it. This hurled him sideways into the curtain-wall and sheared off his "A" end at an angle, the point of impact being roughly twenty feet in from the end. He dragged with him his wife #5283 (ex. #129) and the resulting fire damaged her as well. #5282 was scrapped right on the spot; the wrecking crew worked round the clock to clear and repair the tracks.
I think they probably salvaged some odds and ends from #5282 - one TV news clip (Channel 4 I think) from 7-04-97 showed seats, doors, partitions etc. stacked neatly against the tunnel wall.
Wayne
The linking will be done, likely the last to be done. There appeared to be no structural damage to the car. My best estimate is that it may take up to two years to re-wire 2579.
As to #5282, it met an untimely end when it went down A3 and A5 tracks simultaneously at 135th Street and met a concrete encased steel column sideways. It took 20 hours but the car was cut up into small pieces and loaded onto several flatcars. July 3-4 1997
Has anyone seen #5402 very recently, or is it still "inactive"? Why was it inactive...is it because it is looking for an odd # mate? Well, I think I am going to get shouted for this, but can't you make a linking with 5283-5285-5284 with 5402, and thus create 5402-5283-5285-5284 as a mismatched pairing and put those back in service without having to depend on 5282. Personally, if 5283, 5284 and 5285 (as well as 5402) are scrapped, it would be a total waste (similar to what they did to 5486-5487-5489-5488)....
Anyway, they could reinstate old #176 and possibly other R-44s that were not overhauled, unless all ten of those cars have gone to the scrap heap.
How easy is it to convert R44s into R46s????? Or is it not possible? Because the "unique" A-B on the "G" 6206-6207 is very strange if I have a chance to take a look at it. If 2 R44s (one odd, one even) were converted (assuming it is possible to do so), then the hostler on #6207 can be uninstalled, and the odd # would become #6209 and the even be #6260, which #6208 will become linked to #6209 and thus link with 6206-6207 to become 6206-6207-6209-6208 and new 6260 will link to 6210....unless if the TA wants to keep them in order, which can mean unlinking and relinking 12 more pairs of cars, where the last pair will become 6258-6260 and the A-A pairs will have different mates.
Well, that having said, I will assume that 5486 to 5489 are probably scrapped, as well as 5282 and possibly maybe 5285, 5284, 5283, 5319 and 5402.....unless the TA does take interest in saving those five R-44s which are currently O/S.
Just some thoughts.
Nick C
You can't 'convert' an R44 to an R46 (or vice-versa) Why would you want to?
You COULD make their electrical systems compatible, and thus make the pinouts on the couplers the same so they could work together, but they'd still be R44s and R46s.
-Hank
[ You COULD make their electrical systems compatible, and thus make the
pinouts on the couplers the same so they could work together, but
they'd still be R44s and R46s. ]
I think that they also currently use different pressures in their air systems, so you'd probably have to modify/adjust that also to have them run together..
Dont the R44's make a noise like air is being release or something like that? I do not think the R46 makes this type of noise...
3TM
[ Dont the R44's make a noise like air is being release or something
like that? I do not think the R46 makes this type of noise... ]
I'm sure there are those on subtalk who can identify not only the particular model of car, but also in cases the actual road # by the sounds of the brakes being released. Some people here even go so far as to make those sounds themselves when coming to a stop while walking in a hallway :)
I'm not quite that expert in the sounds, but I can assure you that all subway cars on the NYCT system, from the early composites to today's cars make hissing sounds as the air is released from the brake system.
I always liked the "whooo-ooooo-oooooooo" sound as those cars start up from a dead stop. It ascends in pitch fairly rapidly; from the platform, you can hear it for a couple of seconds while on such a train, you can still hear it increase in pitch several seconds later in the tunnel. It can't compare to the moaning and groaning of the R-1/9s, but it's a pretty cool sound just the same.
The R-7/9 sound was great when they spent their final days on the LL, coming into Union Square from Sixth Ave. High-pitched moan, then a break, then another high pitched sound as the air started rushing from the tunnel into the station (in contrast the R-40Ms/R-42s were all wind and no sound coming into Union Square)
Anyone have any idea what the new R-142s/143s are going to sound like? My guess is the vacuum-cleaner type noise the DC Metro trains make when they come into a station.
[ Anyone have any idea what the new R-142s/143s are going to sound like?
My guess is the vacuum-cleaner type noise the DC Metro trains make
when they come into a station. ]
I'd guess they'd be pretty quiet coming into stations, and the motors may sound very different now. Often AC motors have a distinctive high-pitch whine. The LIRR DE30AC's exemplify this when accelerating out of a station.
It was the spur-cut bull and pinion gears on the prewar equipment which gave them the distinctive musical whine at speed. I loved it! All postwar cars have helical-cut bull and pinion gears which are much quieter. We'll have to wait and see just how the R-142s and R-143s will sound.
The R-44 has no feed valve so brake pipe air runs 120-135 PSI. The R-46 has a feed valve and must be regulated at 110 PSI. For this reason alone, the brake systems would not be compatible. And no, you just could not add feed valves to the R-44s.
Also the braking systems are different.
I will assume that 5486 to 5489 are probably scrapped,
You know what they say about people who assume. In this case, let it suffice to say that no R-46s have been scrapped since 954-1041 were scrapped in 1990. There are no plans to scrap any R-46s. Barring a major incident, it is likely that 752 R-46s will be overhauled in 2002-2003.
how come 954-1041 were scrapped? That's about 100 cars gone......
3TM
I think he meant 954 & 1041 although we don't have any notes for these guys in the scrap list.. Stef/Wayne, what's up here?
-Dave
OOOps that was 1054 and 941, Dave. I thought I sent you pictures. Those are the 2 poor souls that hit the wall at 179th St in 1986 or so. If I didn't send the pictures let me know,some are quite stunning.
Yes, according to Master Numbers Book #6 (the last one with the pre-GOH R44 and R46 numbers), the correct unit numbers are #1054 and #941. I show the date of that incident as June 4, 1987. Please advise if this is wrong. The impact was such that the blind end of #941 (the second car) was smashed in and the floor buckled. I saw these in Jamaica-Yard about 1988 or so; spotted them from the Van Wyck; pulled over and walked through the reeds and up to the fence to take a gander. #1054 had a tarpaulin draped over his mangled nose, which had been partially removed. Steve's superb photo in the R46 section shows this gory damage au naturel.
For any R44 aficionados wondering what they've got stashed in Non-revenue storage: R44 motors 120, 132, 176, 248, 288; trailers 109 and 385. ALSO: trailers 215 (wrecked), 227 (fire) and 315 (fire) are also O.O.S.
Wayne
Is there a reason why these particular cars were not overhauled (no funding, did't feel like it, used for beer runs?)
Speaking of 120, the number one truck has a general steel casting but no coil springs. It does have inflatable leafs instead with the truck number 7767. If this is a bonified Rockwell truck from an R-46 why does it have the GSI logo? Why is it under an R-44?
There were, as part of the R-44 contract, 12 oddball cars. The last 12 cars were built with R-44 bodies but had R-46 prototype equipment. They has GE propulsion and westcode brakes. In addition, they also had airbag suspension on standard trucks instead of the Rockwell Disaster trucks. There werethe last 12 NYCT R-44s built and ultimately went to the SIRR.
I am curious to know how difficult is it to change the R-44 to use R-46 guts and have them both m.u. with each other?
Got me but I wouldn't attempt it. Lately it's been a struggle to get R-46s to MU with other R-46s
I've noticed that recently! I'm afraid to look at the next MDBF! You recently lots of attention has been given to air conditioning concerns lately. Realistically
, the guys in the barn can only do so much.
You are somewhat correct. July MDBF has not yet been finalized as all milage has not yet been posted but the R-46 fleet will be up about 15% from July 1998 but down from June 1999 by about the same amount. However since we live or die by the 12 month moving average, we're moving in the right direction.
Ooooooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooo. Just when I was going to say it appears the R-46s have had all the bugs worked out of them.
They're still good cars, IMHO.
They are great cars and as I have said, just two engineering issues away from being great cars. My boss and I were discussing that issue yesterday and he has said that he intends to use that line with his boss. In fact, these same engineering issues were raised in a memo in 1991, by me. TA engineering has two speeds neither of them is very fast.
They are great cars and as I have said, just two engineering issues away from being greater cars. My boss and I were discussing that issue yesterday and he has said that he intends to use that line with his boss. In fact, these same engineering issues were raised in a memo in 1991, by me. TA engineering has two speeds neither of them is very fast.
1054 and 941 have a picture, yes (it's actually of 1054). I wasn't sure if that's what you meant or there were 2 other cars we didn't have on the list.
-Dave
As many of you know I became a member of Shoreline @ Branford this past Fall. I've been a "customer" who has thoughly enjoyed the services provided & wanted to start paying them back.
Sat. about 8 AM I put the top down on my convertable and headed North. At the end of #6 I did a easy off/easy on & picked up Stef, we arrived about 10. After a brief conversation with JJ about my history project & a stop at the store to pick up a book that a fellow SubTalker had suggested, it was time for work.
I spent about 6 hours with a butane torch & puddy knife scrapping paint off the roof of R-17 #6688 (yes Stef, Lou & I were on the roof). At one point there was four of us working on her: Stef, Lou, Joe & I. Jeff arrived & later made the comment that it looked like somekind of SubTalk reunion. I got off early, at 4:30, because mine was the first bottle to run out.
P.S. Small World category: Jeff was going to a Jazz concert the next day in Moodus, CT. I told him it was just a couple of miles away from my moms' house, as the crow flyes (sorry a little hick talk).
Also intersting, I later learned that my Uncle was going too. So, Jeff I hope you enjoyed the event, after the AM shower, at the SunRise !
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for coming up. I hope you'll be returning. I'd like to recruit other SubTalkers to the worthy cause of preservation.
-Stef
Back in March 1999 I saw Septa 2739 on an empty lot on 4th Ave Brooklyn, just north of Union Place.
Does anybody know if it is still there? If so why is it there? According to a website roster (linked from this site) an individual named Eric Richmond purchased 5 of the old cars? Who is he and can he tell us where the other 4 cars are? Thanx
I can offer that SEPTA PCC #2709 is at the Seashore Trolley Museum, and is part of the operating fleet.
I hear on my scanner DeKalb giving directions for the N to accept a lower green at Ball 354 (I believe this is the home signal for the dirverging route from the N Broadway line to the Nassau (M) line). Is there some new procedure in place? My notes show that signal to always have been lower green for the N & R.
I don't know of a 354 ball in the vicinity. There is 154X home signal located at the southern tip of the Manhattan Bridge. If there was an N train there he was told to make the stop at Dekalb with that bottom green.
There is a home signal 354 on the Manhattan bound M,N,R which governs the diverging route to Broad Street. Procedure is lower green to Whitehall, lower yellow to Broad Street. I asked my question to a motorman on a N this morning. I was told that for two days in a row there had been instances of a train accepting the lineup to Broad Street (lower yellow) when the correct lineup was to Whitehall (lower green). This was caused by new personnel not yet familiar with the routings. DeKalb has been requesting that the motorman confirms he is expecting a bottom green to prevent further mistakes until everyone is familiar with the routings. RT
Gee, wouldn't PROPER TRAINING have prevented this? On the Railroads we were given training on the physical charicteristics of the line. Then we had to pass a test before we were allowed to operate trains. But since this COSTS money the Transit Authority isn't interested. Dollars before professionalism.
Satan runs the TA.
How would proper training have prevented this? If an N train punched at Court Street and saw the wrong lineup displayed at the cut to Broad st why would they take it?. Tie the damn railroad up till the proper line is given unless Control Ctr orders you to take the wrong line up....
Correct! Right! I agree! 100% YOU have the right atitude. Do you attend your union meetings?
8-10 new MVMs have been activated on the Lexington Ave Mezzanine at Grand Central, as of last Friday, at least.
-Hank
What's an "MVM?"
MVM = MertoCard Vending Machine, comming to a station near you soon.
Mr t__:^)
You don't read the Willy B thread do you? I posted a whole list of abbreviations there, MVM (Metrocard Vending Machine) is one of them.
Next up, MRM: Metrocard refillingmachine, also coming soon, according to this month's ERA Bulletin
Why would a separate machine be needed for a function already fulfilled by the existing machines? To make it harder to buy cards and encourage refilling I assume?
The current machines don't refill.
Yes, they do. The function is called 'add value'. The 'refilling' machines can be smaller units, as they do not have to offer the multiple options that the full-service machine does. It can make do with a bill/coin acceptor and a small screen. I'd assume, basically, you'd dip the card, the screen would give you a current value. You drop in your cash, and hit a 'finished' button, your card is updated and spit back out at you.
-Hank
GCT has been (or will be if you read this within a few minutes of posting) to my MVMs list at: Roosevelt Avenue and the MVM. Visit the page, corrections and updates welcome! I want to keep the list up to date.
I saw them at Grand St on Saturday.
Grand and Chrystie?
FNO: I will not make any additions to the list unless I investigate the station first. I will investigate the current stations (except for 179, Rockefeller, Columbus, Bowling and 68/Lex) on Thursday or Friday.
Grand and Chrystie?
Yup. There were the usual posters on the platform pointing the way to the machines, with signs advertising free Metrocard holders to people who use the machine. Of course, no one was there to hand them out when I went through the station, but I had gotten a free holder from Bowling Green several weeks ago anyway.
Nice list....I wonder,however, what the priority has been as far as where the MVMs have been located...i.e. when for example Times Square-42nd St or World Trade Center for example-locations that seem to me to be obvious spots where day trippers, commuters etc tend to start their trips....
I've e-mailed a friend in Cubic NYC incl. a couple of examples of the posts here just to see how he reacts to our interest. No reply yet, but then I didn't ask for one. Last time I spoke to him he was impressed that we knew where they were going in.
Mr t__:^)
Re: MRM, My friend at Cubic says that "Hank has it almost right".
He says they'll take only credit or debit cards. They are about the same size & will be installed "... next year ..." at sites near the MVM machines. They will re-charge value & time based MCs.
Mr t__:^)
They are going in to the World Trade Center E station, they have the connections there. Times Square may have been passed by because of the renovation and they'll have to finish a significant 24 hour portion of one of it's entries before installation.
A question for one of our LIRR friends or someone who has ridden the Cannonball:
How many LIRR crew are on board?
For example, would there be, say, five trainmen for 10 bilevels (1 conductor and 4 ass't conductors, so that there's one for every other car)? And are there two qualified engineers? (What if there's only one, and he has to take a 'comfort break'?)
>What if there's only one, and he has to take a 'comfort break'?
There's an interesting (well, maybe not...) question.
Does the DE-30 have a toilet? I know the F-40s Amtrak uses have them. Ever wonder what's inside the nose of one? Don't believe me? Check out http://gelwood.el.wny.org/manual/f40-manual.html
Anyway - E units had them, I guess F and others had them too - But, what DO they do? I'm assuming they can't switch operators while the train is in motion. It's quite a distance between stations...
How about this? Use a funnel attached to the control panel. Then attach a hose to the outside of the train.
That's illegal.
-Hank
And what would the ladies do? Yes, there are a few (very few) women engineers :-)
Out west where Amtrak uses F40's, cab cars, and even newer F59's, the engineers don't even THINK of using that smelly pit down in the nose of the engine. It's akin to what the passengers have to endure on the LIRR.
Most engineers I know out here just get on the radio and tell the conductor "Hey Joe, I gotta come back and drain the main reservoir" and they go back to the first car of the train at the next staion stop!!
Metrolink doesn't even have toilets on their locos; it was their intention all along that the engineers would hop back to the first car if something necessary came up en route.
Speaking of draining - did the Amfleet toilets ever drain directly to the ground? I know some cars have a sticker telling you NOT to flush in the station - oddly enough, the explaination is that "workers are performing safety inspections under cars" One would think the most people would be *encouraged* to flush by that...
They did, but many states passed laws banning (for environmental reasons) dump toilets, and now all cars are supposed to have retention toilets.
-Hank
Why go through all that trouble....bring a Big Gulp cup from 7-Eleven, and when it is filled, just toss the contents out the window....
< A question for one of our LIRR friends or someone who has ridden the Cannonball:
How many LIRR crew are on board? >
AFAIK, no LIRR train ever has two engineers as regular crew.
I don't have the current Cannonball, but I have recent crewing figures.
The Friday Cannonball (Train #2710) actually has one of the smaller crews for a major train. It carries one engineer, one conductor, one brakeman, and one collector. It really doesn't need more, because with the first stop after Jamaica being Westhampton, there's plenty of time to sell and collect tickets.
As far as the public is concerned, the crew translates to the engineer and three conductors, or if your prefer, one conductor and two assistant conductors.
THe thing I noticed on Friday was that there were at least 10 parlor car "Ushers" on the Cannonball. This might only have been on that day with the introduction of Bi-level Cannonball service....Mark
Car service personnel (ushers? bar tenders?) are not part of the crew (in the timetable or FRA sense).
I'm not sure they're in the same union as conductors.
I just rode in the the DE30ac.
To clarify some points:
Nope, No bathroom.
The interior is loud as hell because of this pressurized interior. It sounds like keeping a hairdryer on FOREVER.
The Inside is all computers. One of the screens the engineer doesn't even bother to use because it distracts him from looking as the road.
I've got video of the interior. It looks impressive, but it's all useless. And that is a dierect quote from the engineer.
lastly, It is 3000 HP, BUT... ONLY 2000 of traction and the extra 1000 is for hotel power. Otherwise, it's a GP38-2 in a carbody, just NEWER looking.
MJC
2000 hp goes to the traction motors and the rest is for the HVAC? It figures. HEP will always sap some hp from the prime mover. Reminds me of NJT's U34CH from a couple of years ago.
Hmmmm...they DON'T have a separate engine for HEP? Strange.
Everyone was touting that as an F59 in a longer, lower carbody.
The F59 has a separate engine for HEP. I seem to remember seeing
cutaway drawings of the DE30's, and there WAS a separate engine,
maybe I'm mistaken.
[ Everyone was touting that as an F59 in a longer, lower carbody.
The F59 has a separate engine for HEP. I seem to remember seeing
cutaway drawings of the DE30's, and there WAS a separate engine,
maybe I'm mistaken. ]
I think I posted this before, but looking over the information on EMD's website seems to confirm that the F59 does have separate HEP, and the D[EM]30AC's don't.
When I bought my Saturn, they made a big deal out of the cupholders. Will the R142-R143 have cupholders in the train operator's cap?
I ask because of an incident at Grand Army Plaza this morning. The train operator announced a hold due to "red signals," then left the cab and sprinted to a trash can on the platform to dispose of his 2/3 drunk tea. He then got back in the cab and we proceeded. A cupholders could have saved 30 seconds.
And, if there was a holder the cup could be used for something else on the second half of the run, saving even more time. I for one couldn't function without my morning coffee, and place to put in on the way out
The new M-4s in Philly have cup holders in the cabs...
And the seats look like they adjust at least as many ways as the driver's seat in a Lincoln Continental!
The M-1's (LIRR) have those seats too. There's like 5 knobs on them. If you've ever seen (or sat), in the MP-54's seats, you'd know why, it's a reaction to how minamal those cars were in seating up front:
1) The seat isn't hight adjustable. It *does* adjust side to side (kinda), though.
2) It's tiny
3) no backrest, though it has footrests
4) It's (marginally) padded
5) They probbly stood anyway, because you can't see much of anything out them sitting. Those cars, esp the older ones, had real small windows. The MP-75s had somewhat larger windows, as did the Zips. They're still too small, and pretty high up - short people probbly had a lot of fun driving these things.
6) It's a pain to fold up / unfold it
I can imagine, after dealing with that all those years, engineers probbly lobbied the LIRR hard for better seating - note how newer MUs tend to be that way. What I hate is that it has no storage space for the prerequiste bag they carry around - at least the M-2s they can (almost) stuff their stuff all in the cab.
Anyway, I found the seat in the subway R-4 (or was it 6?) at Seashore to be much more comfy - I actualy prefered it to standing - is there any rules as to operation? must the T/O be sitting, or can they stand to operate?
In 1990, I attempted to have cup holders, coat hooks and sun visors in the cabs of the R-46. Coat hooks were approved but cost about $27 each. The sun visor wouldn't pass system safety standards even though they were the same that are used on busses. Coffee Cup holders were rejected because it's a violation of rules to be eating or drinking in the cab.
Coat hooks that cost $27? You perhaps use the same guys that supply the Pentagon with the $500 hammers?
Maybe that figures in Instalation costs? Those .50 centy coat hooks don't exactly stick themself to the wall....
No food or drink in the cab, eh?
Here's the philosophy: the union won't let you fire the 10 percent who are slobs or bums (since they are the only people who show up at union meetings), so you treat the entire workforce like children. Great for morale. No wonder the TA has labor problems despite high pay. Its that insane, common sense be damned, union-civil service rule oriented labor relations style that drives postal workers to kill. Someone spilled coffee on the console once? Ban it.
Question: are airline pilots allowed to have a cup of coffee in the cockpit? If the answer is no, then the TA is not out of line. If the answer is yes, then....
Ever see the movie "Fate Is The Hunter"? Best reason I ever saw for not allowing coffee in the cockpit of a plane or the cab of a train......
By the way, coffee in a personal auto don't work too well, especially if you hold it between your thighs.
"Coffee doesn't work too well in a cockpit of plane, train, auto"
It seems to be a must in the workplace. Without it, the output of the Department of City Planning would fall substantially.
Many airline captains that I've flown with have a rule-of-thumb: If their cup of coffe begins to slosh around so much that a "reasonably full" cup begins to spill, then it's time to turn on the seatbelt sign.
I'll keep that in mind when I fly to Florida in a few weeks ....
--mark
sure why not have cup holders in new equipment how about leather seating surfaces too? piped in musak carpeting head and neck rest also
give me a break some train cabs are so filthy its not fit for a person to enter
Well, if the coffee helps you stay attentive to the job, but you have no place to safely put the cup, I think cup holders make perfect sense. Just my humble opinion.
As I said, the new M-4s in Philly have them. I know a cup of coffee helps get me going in the morning, and I feel a bit better riding to work in the morning knowing that the TO had his cup, and he's not going to spill it.
Lousy work surroundings are a characteristic of public employment. Why this is I don't know. A cupholder, a better seat, etc. in the cab would probably improve morale. The problem is that some TOs are slobs, but treating them all like children doesn't help. The quality of the cab should be maintained, and managment/union should make it a priority to keep it that way.
A couple of tubes of Duro(TM) Contact Cement should solve that problem. Or you could get some Krazy Glue for $1.00 a tube anywhere in the system :o)
Wayne
What is your favorite line and subway car?Mine is the F and the R46.
Favorite line:
IRT: 7
BMT: L
IND: A
Favorite Car: R62a with the railfan window
3TM
That's a toughy, but here goes:
1) The BMT Brighton Line
2) R-40 slants (second runner up: R-38)
Doug aka BMTman
"A" train to Rockaway
1 train north of Dyckman Street
any elevated
BRT 1200 series cars with steps and traps!!!!
Deck Roof Hi-V's come in a very close 2nd
Hey,
A man after my own heart. Favorite line: Brighton (with the West End a close second). Favorite car: A tie! BMT ABs & D-types (they go together like peanut butter and jelly; can't have one without the other)
Mike H
From the "it is not there anymore" category - 3rd Av El (Bronx section) and the Lo-V's.
From the retired section: R-22's on any IRT line, The R1/9s on the A and D lines.
From the current selection: Haven' made up my mind yet.
IRT #5 and the R-33 (No surprise there)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Favorite Line: Brighton Line
Favorite Service: Brighton-Franklin Express
Favorite Equipment: Triplex D-Type
Favorite spot in Favorite Equipment: the front window, wide open, even in pouring rain.
2nd Favorite Equipment: BMT Standard
Favorite spot in 2nd Favorite Equipment: the front window, wide open, even in pouring rain.
3rd Favorite Equipment: 1300 series BU
Favorite spot in 3rd Favorite Equipment: sitting next to the car side, with the window sash removed in the summer.
2nd Favorite spot in 3rd Favorite Equipment: standing on the open platform on Sunday watching the conductor operate the gates, especially if he let me open them every now and then, especially if he let me crank the handle on the farebox when people deposited money.
I remember those fareboxes too. That's a long time ago!
Hey Paul,
You read my mind with the ABs and D-types. Was born in 1956, so the gates were gone by my time, but how lucky was I to see those ABs and Ds running.(OK, 3rd is the R/9s)
Mike H
How I wish I could have ridden on the Triplexes. If only we had waited until rush hour back in July of 1965...
How I wish I could have ridden on the Triplexes. If only we had waited until rush hour back in July of 1965...
But can't we hope the Nostalgia train will run again?
Yes, we can only hope the good Body Doctors down at CI Shoppe will see to them soon, as rust and old age are setting in. I hear one has a partially fallen ceiling! This Will Not Do! I rode them last October 18th, and it was a wonderful trip. Steve B will be pleased to know that they sounded almost exactly like R1/R4/R6/R7/R9 cars, complete with groaning Bull gears (which made it to a resounding F# above middle C between 36th and Pacific) and little air noises like "k-chaaaaahhh" and "pfsht" and "tchhhhhhh".
Wayne
Of course, the BMT standards moaned and groaned the way the R-1/9s did as well. It's a safe bet the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs did so as well.
The only Lo-V I can remember the sound of were the 1938 WF Steinway Lo-V, on my May 24,1969 trip up the Third Avenue El. They had a groan, but it seemed to be a shallower sound than the deep-throated bullfrog sounds of the R1-thru-R9 cars. Perhaps because we were outdoors it sounded different. I was too young to remember the regular Lo-Vs sounds. I remember riding ON them but not what they sounded like, as I was a very young child. I got a kick out of the fans - Mom said I called them Wa-wa's. The fans in the R-6s and R-7s on the "E" and "F" (and the R-7s and R-9s on the "QJ", "KK", "LL" and "M" Shuttle) were less interesting. Walking through the Lo-V trailer at the Museum brings back some very distant memories of riding from Newkirk Avenue to Borough Hall on my Mom's lap, with her pointing out the letters in the mosaics to teach me alphabets.
Wayne
You can hear moaning and groaning in The Incident; however, they used a meticulously-built studio mockup of #5674 and the sounds were undoubtedly piped or dubbed in. Nighthawks is another story; what you hear is the real McCoy. You can even see the conductor peering out from between the two cars he was stationed at in the scene where Rutger Hauer is holding the elderly woman hostage at knifepoint. I've never been able to determine any car numbers in Nighthawks, even going frame by frame, although I'll bet Seashore's 800 and 1440 were probably there.
I can only hope that I will be in the city if and when such a fantrip will be held. Timing is everything.
Line: #7, what else?
Car: R-15 or R-11 I *love* those round windows on the doors
You know the R16's had round windows in their storm doors too.:-)
He's talking about the four round porthole windows in the side doors. They were truly unique. BTW- RD336 is STILL out there, she's all R15, even in her Yellowbird paint scheme.
Wayne
When was the R15 retired? I remember in 1986 and early 87 there were cars running on the IRT #3 line which looked like R15's and R17's. They disappeared around March of 87 about the same time as the R16 was put out of it misery and the R62 began taking over the #3. Which cars was I riding on? I do know that IRT cars which had square windows that could be opened were r21/22's.
I believe the R16 was on the J line or the BMT division.... I check the roster.........
3TM
R16 appeared in a wide number of places. Initially, they were on the #15 line (now the "J") and occasionally on the #14 (the old "JJ"/"KK"). Then they showed up in 1968 or 1969 on the "RR". Soon after they migrated to the "EE" and "GG", working out of Jamaica-Yard.
They stayed there for several years, actually appearing briefly on the "N" when it took over for the "EE". They appeared as fill-ins on the "E" and "F" when the Rockwell truck problems cropped up. From there, they went to the Eastern Division. They worked the "LL" and "M" for a while. Then they mercifully faded off into the sunset, at the ripe old age of 32 years service.
Wayne
It was strange to see the R-16s sporting orange JJ signs during their final days. Not to mention the light blue M signs.
And, speaking of round door windows, I know I saw some R-10s with those door windows; in fact, once a southbound A train pulled into 14th St., and every car in the consist had those door windows! The problem is, no one can confirm this, not even Mr. R-10 himself. I wish I had written down the car numbers, looking back now.
There was one R10 with a round end storm door glass window, but side door panels? I think not. Were you dreaming about R10's again? lol!
This was no dream, let me assure you, even though I've had some doozies. This was on the 8th Ave. line at 14th St. sometime in the late 60s (I almost never rode on the IRT back then). I was on the uptown platform, waiting for an A train, when a southbound A train roared into the station. The cars were definitely R-10s, wearing the teal and white scheme of that time period. Every single car in that train had two round windows on each door. It was the only time I ever saw such a train, although I had occasionally seen such a car in other A trains.
Not only that, but I cannot recall ever seeing the conductor work the doors on the BMT standards from one of the button consoles between the center doors, and I rode on those cars for two years on the Canarsie line every Saturday. Unless I never rode in the second or fifth cars of any train... Or perhaps I was trying to blot the standards out of my mind, since I didn't care for them back then.
Put it this way: Leo Durocher said he had no recollection of Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world", even though he was coaching at third base. His mind went blank right about the time the ball landed in the stands.
The door controls on the BMT Standards were
definitely on the center door. The other thing I
remember which was great for a little kid (thats
when I rode them) was there was a window on the
motorman's cab door (like the LIRR used to have
before they painted it over) to watch them drive.
It was at perfect eye level for a young
child!!
The SARGE-my homepage
Oh, I remember the button consoles very well. Chances are we most likely sat in the third or fourth car while heading to Brooklyn; I always rode in the first car going back to Manhattan. One funny thing: once when we got off at Lorimer St., I could have sworn I saw the conductor sitting in the motorman's cab in the fourth car. My mind must be playing tricks on me.
Although I'm going by memory only (and thats the first to go) and I'm no expert, are you sure you're not thinking of the IRT cars that were like the R10?? I seem to remember IRT cars with the same type fans and the high (over the window) destination signs as the R10 that had round door windows. They also had the same type of door controls between cars that the R1-9 & the R10 had.
The R10 and R12 were similiar cars, with similar fans and signs. The only difference besides their dimensions (60' to 51') was that the R10 had foward facing window seats and the R12 had all their seats agaist the wall. At least that's all I could tell when I saw them at the TA Museum. There might be mechanical differences.
BTW, is the R110A the only IRT car which had these type of foward facing window seats?
The only ones since the original High-Vs without the center door. When the IRT put the middle door in, I believe the forward facing seats in those cars were taken out.
The R10 had air operated doors. If meemory serves me correctly, the R12/14 had "electric" doors.
You are correct. The R-10s were the last cars to have air-operated doors.
Yep, the R-12s and R-14s were scaled-down versions of the R-10s and were stylistically similar. They had square windows on their doors and external trigger box door controls in addition to the small roofline roll signs. The R-15s had two round windows on their doors and round porthole windows on their storm doors, plus their door controls were in the cabs - a first.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of R11's or R15's. They both had round side door windows with the same type of over the window destination signs as the R10.
I knew that the R16 ended its days on the J/M and L lines, with the last ones being taken out of service in the early months of 1987 off the M line. But what about the R15 or R17? One of them also disappeared around the same time ...
Chris: The last R-14's and R-15's were taken out of passenger service on December 10,1984. They spent their last days on the #1 Broadway-7Av Local.
The last R-12's ran in passenger serivce sometime in September 1981.
The last R-17's ran in pasenger service on February 29,1988 on the #5 Lexington Av Exp/Thru-Exp. These were painted in the "Redbird" scheme and had cars 6620-6614-6550-6681-6579-6618-6624-6623-6619-6626.
Thanks for the info. I thought the "redbird" R17's only operated on the Times Sq shuttle. I can't remember seeing an R17 on a main line after March 1987.
Chris: They did operate on the 42 Street Shuttle until October 2,1987.After that they ran in #5 service until February 29,1988. I rode my last R-17 on a southbound #5 Express on February 18,1988. It was 6579.
For the records here's the 16 R-17's painted in red;6550,6579,6588,6594,6614,6616,6619,6620,6623,6624,6626,6627,6665,6681,6688,and 6699.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ok... My favorite topic. Anyone ever knew what became of those Redbird R17s? A number of them wound up in work service, while others sat in dead storage, and one Redbird R17 survived to be worked on by me, and others at a certain Museum somewhere in CT.
What Redbirds went to work service? Let see... 6550, 6579, 6614, 6616, and 6626. 6665 and 6699 sat at 180th St before being carted off to scrap late in 1994, as is 6623, which remained at 239th St Yard. This was an interesting time. Late 1994 saw a departure of multiple cars from 180th St and particularly 239th St Yard. Between a regular set of GOH Redbirds sometime late at night, 6623 came down the line with two R15s, 5981 and 6235. An odd sight indeed. They were not powered.
I've had someone tell me that the cars on the fantrip back in 87 were running down the middle track on the 2/5 line side by side with some GOH cars on the local, and he said that it was amazing - To think that pre-GOH cars could be as fast (if not faster) as the GOH cars makes me think that the cars had plenty of life left in them, even though they were months from an inevitable retirement.
Keep this in mind - that R17 that still survives in Redbird Paint probably can outrun other Redbirds still running in service since that car didn't get any modifications that the GOH fleet got particularly after the fatal Williamsburg Bridge Wreck involving an R40M and an R42.
Anyone here know if there are still any Redbird R17s (or ones converted for work service) on the TA property?
-Stef
I remember photographing 6699 & 6665 at 1st Ave. in Brooklyn (South Brooklyn yard) in early 1996. they were what I believe to be the last pre R-26 "Redbirds" to leave the property. With minimal work they would have been operational. They had NO visable defects other than broken windows. After a week down there you couldn't tell that they were painted red. They looked like something right out of service in the early 80's. They were plastered with graffiti!! They were finally taken away for scrap along with some other cars (R-12,15,21,22,30) after sitting there for almost a year (You could imagine what they looked like after the vandals finished with them) Anyhow 1st Ave. is now a graveyard for retired buses. The only railcars in there are the three "Q" cars dating from 1900-5?. Nobody wants them. The rumor is that they were sold with a bunch of R-30's last year for scrap. The scrapper left them there. (I guess it's not worth scrapping. They are mostly wood)
Mark,
I hate to say it, but 6665 and 6699 would have made a great parts source for 6688. Now they're gone and our search for parts might have become more difficult.
If anyone knows of an R17 on the scrap line, please post.
As I was saying, I believe what you tell me. A whole string of cars, including those in work service were carted off to scrap, particularly since the R127/134s arrived on the property. Many work horses had no other place to go, so off they went to scrap!
The Q's are an item of interest. Naporano I guess, doesn't want them because they're made of wood. What do they want then? Cars of metal? I see a bad thing happening in the SBK yard, if the Q's aren't disposed of soon. Someone who gets in there might decide to have a bonfire on those cars.
There's been talk of renovation of the Q Car at Kingston. It would be a mistake for those kind folks to modify that Q car any other way than it already is. Why don't they purchase one of the Qs on the scrap line?
-Stef
Well even if you pay for the shipping we would not be happy to accept. Harold and I went through those cars some years ago and we came to the conclusion that between TA modifications to make them pump cars and the level of deterioration, they could not be saved. They are beyond hope.
That's unfortunate.
-Stef
As far as your part supply for the R-17, keep your eyes out on the cars currently used for the signal dolly. Word is the R-33 single car might replace them when they are yanked from service. One is already being stripped from its brake and A-1 parts to keep the others going. The side door panels are original, unless you insist on replacing the damaged door with the R-36 one. Don't worry though, 6398 has enough cosmetic and operational parts to carry us well into the 21 century. Even side doors. We could use some more volunteers though.
Well that's good to know. Yes, we all know that 6398 has parts that will keep it going into the 21st Century. I've already heard about 6398 being stacked with parts from bottom to top from Erik. Maybe we should have taken a cue from you when the R17 was purchased. By the way, the R36 Door is NOT, NOT going onto the car ok. I thought that would happen and its NOT, unless the R17 door is beyond repair.
My colleague is trying to get into contact with 207th St Shop so we can fetch parts from cars going to scrap.
By the way, I don't make the rules for how this project is going to proceed. That's in the hands of someone else. I'm only doing what I'm told and that's that. I've only been trying to put in a good word for this car. Everyone needs volunteers and that's also a fact of life unfortunately.
-Stef
Furthermore, my own personal goal is to try and replace or fix as many worn parts as I can, provided that no real expertise is needed. For that, I'll leave the major mechanical work in the hands of men like Jeff H. It doesn't mean that I can't learn how to do things, as Jeff and others have proven to be real teachers to me. It's up to me, the volunteer, to make sure that places like Branford, Kingston, and Seashore keep running and take their places in history as the Museums that fought to save the past. The public has a right to enjoy history as I do. Contributions count to keep the Museums going.
I appreciate history and don't expect everyone else to appreciate it the same way as I do. I love TRAINS, TRAINS, and more TRAINS. There's no doubt about it. On the flip side, some members of the public doesn't share my love for trains, but it's great if I can try and present some history to them. Transit helped to contrbute to the growth of NYC, and without it, it would not have been possible for us to get around the city. What I try to do is to promote the past in that, it helped to shape the present, and possibly the future.
I get great satisfaction out of what I've been doing, regardless of how big a project it maybe.
-Stef
Aren't the R-16 side doors interchangeable with R-17 doors? They certainly have identical windows with no weatherstripping on the inside, just the outside. If they are, maybe you could swing a deal with TMNY.
Ok... We'll see. I don't think that certain folks were too happy over the fact that the R16 was rejected from Branford. I don't know how or if they can help. Anyway as one gentleman has said, there's an R22 on the scrap line at 207th St Yard. It's quite similar to Branford's R17. It could make a good parts source. My thinking was that if parts for Branford's Car could be attained, why not from an R17? The problem is there are no R17s around that we could make use of. There is one car, 6895, that's on the property, but I found out recently that it's going to be restored.
-Stef
Cosmetically the only difference between an R-17 and an R-21/22 is the storm door window and the dropdown emergency side windows, requiring the red glass located over it on the R-17 cars. The side doors are exactly alike as well as their windows,PSS switches and door operators. As far as the group switch box, you may have to pick from the GE R-16 at the training school in Brooklyn, when they decide to get rid of it. Hopefully you got to the scrap line at 239 Street before they cleaned house. BTW sorry if we didn't leave any of the vacuum tube PA amps because we have no intention of COMCO-TO-GO
:-)
TA bell? Cani-San? Temp? Tuffak? OT on the QT? What are we talking about here?
Thanks for that info, but unfortunately 239th St Yard was already picked clean. There's not a single old car destined for scrap here.
What were they? Hmmm... 5704, 5981, 5992, 6235, 6623, 7187, 7226 and several others were kicked out the door. Several at 180th St got booted as well. 35802 still sits at Concourse with Westchester Yard's 5851. It was an interesting site, seeing cars getting transferred down to the scrap line. I don't know about the R16 car at PS 248, but if it works, perhaps Mike can save it and make it into another Museum Car.
My colleague is taking care of everything.
-Stef
Good luck if anyone attempts to set them on fire, if they have as much asbestos as the Composites did. Those puppies had to be drenched with gasoline before they would catch on fire during scrapping.
My thoughts exactly!
-Stef
Actually, I heard that before the TA could release them to scrap,
they had to call in the master-abaters to remove all the funny
white stuff.
Rim shot!!!
What replaced the R-12 when they were taken out? Or were they surplus by then (like the R-30 in 1993, HA!)? What about the R-21/22?
Although there were several car shifts and at one time about 200 cars were laid up out of service what happenned in effect was that there was no replacement for the R-12,14,and 15's. 1150 R-62 and 62A's replaced 1100 R-17,21 and 22's. The IRT is still down about 350 cars(same number as the R-12,14 and 15's) from the peak total of the 1960's. That is one reason the trains are so overcrowded.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't think the TA needs as many cars today as they did in the 1960's because there is no longer a Third Ave shuttle or South Ferry shuttle in service. However, I dont think both of these lines used up 350 cars between them. LOL.
Question about the #4 line: Has this line always run on an all-day rush hour schedule (every 5 minutes), or is this a fairly new service pattern. I have subway maps showing that both the #4 and 5 used to terminate at Atlantic Ave during the mid-day hours, and today's present schedule would make that seem a it too much service for the Atlantic Ave. station to handle. Even today as the #4 terminates at Atlantic for some mysterious reason, service can get backed up all the way to Borough Hall.
Chris: Up until Nov 69 the 3 Avenue El required 11 five car trains for peak service plus some spares,as this was the old cars they did not impact on the mainline service requirements. When the R-12's were assigned they cut the requirement to 8 or 9 four car trains and dedicated about 50 R-12 to the service and about 4 more R-14's later on. The Bowling Green Shuttle only required 2 two car trains all four of which were R-12's.
Both #4 and #5 expresses terminated at Atlantic Av midday until Sept 6,1987 when #4 headway was increased to an average five minute headway so #5's were cutback to Bowling Green.
I came across another thing that might be of interest since we were speaking about it the other day. The last R-16's were ordered out of passenger service on June 26,1987.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What line was that R16 operating on? I never saw one after April 1st.
That sounds pretty emphatic, concerning the R-16s.
Those four R-12s on the Bowling Green shuttle, 5703-5706, were modified so that only their center doors would open at South Ferry. One question: since that shuttle was a back-and-forth operation on a single track, I presume that only one 2-car train was used at a time. If so, where was the other train laid up?
If what you said earlier is true about the IRT being 350 cars short, that's all the more reason to keep some of the Redbirds around.
The Bowling Green Shuttle did use only one two car train at a time,but there were a total of four cars to cover the service. The out of service cars were laid up in the yard,either 241 St or East 180 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Chris: As of Janauary 7,1987 there were still 48 R-16's assigned to the combined M/R Nassau-4 Av services. This did not stop them from making an ocassional vist to the B and the Broadway R.
On May 22 at least one train was still in service on the M.
The cars were finally ordered out of service on June 26,1987. This does not means that they actually ran on that day or up until that day just that after that time they could no longer be used in service.
The situation with the R-16's is unusual because there is no info on when the last run was actually made. Most times we know the run and car numbers.I rode my last R-16's on April 15,1987,one train on the M and another on the R-Nassau St. I kind of liked the old girls and think they deserved a better sendoff.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I know for a fact that R16's ran on the B and Broadway R as late as March 1987, because I rode them.
BTW, did the TA have any sort of farewell trip for the venerable R10 like they did for the R30? I can understand the R16's uneventful retirement, as they elicited no love from most people. But talking in this newsgroup, I've noticed a lot of people who worship the R10 in almost god-like fashion. LOL
As a matter of fact, there was a farewell fantrip for the immortal R-10s on October 29, 1989. There was a post last week which outlined the route of that fantrip, compliments of Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron.
You had to experience the R-10s during their glory days on the A line. They were second to none in terms of sheer speed, and nothing will ever take their place.
Oh I remember their speed. I can remember riding them on the C line as they rocketed from High St. to Broadway Nassau. Unfortunatly, they made enough noise to be mistaken for rockets. My main beef with the R10 was that the incredible noise made riding them with a Walkman next to impossible. Absolutly impossible during the summer when the storm doors were latched open. Perhaps this is a pet peeve that didn't exist before people started using walkmans on the trains.
However, I did like their green color. I wish the IRT R26-36's had been painted that color green and not red. Greenbirds? LOL
Chris: About ten R-33's and an R-17 and an R-21 or 22 were painted in the "Pullman Green" paint scheme at the same time the R-10's were. I agree with you that the R-10's looked pretty classy with the green but somehow it didn't look so good on the IRT cars.
Larry,RedbirdR-33
My favorite R-10 scheme was the teal and white combination, in particular the one which featured a narrow teal band at the belt rail with a wider teal band along the bottom.
As I've said before, the R-10s weren't terribly loud during their glory days on the A, even when roaring up CPW at an exhilirating 50+ mph. At least I never had to hold my ears.
Chris: I should mention that info for the previous post came from both my own records and the Bulletin of the New York Division of the ERA.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All the more reason to break out the Bondo and keep a few hundred of the Redbirds rolling!
Wayne
Especially since the ridership is up since the 1970s, even if the number of lines in service has declined.
Yeah, but those cars sucked big time. I've yet to see anyone on here who has any affection for the R16.
Actually I know of two of them (R16s) being restored. So some people must like them.
One is at Branford and the other is at the Trolley museum of New York (Kingston.)
I think the R16 as originally delivered (with padded seats) and green backlit signage was a reasonably attractive car. But they were plagued with cold weather problems and were poorly maintained.
No, Branford (Shore Line) has an R17.
Check the Museum Roster
-Dave
R-16 6387 is at the Transit Museum sporting an olive drab paint job. From what has been written, the WH R-16s weren't so bad. The GE ones were lemons. I stand corrected if I had this reversed.
Favorite line(thats a hard one):I guess the
"A" to Rockaway.
2nd:The "B" West
End
Honorable Mention: The "4" when it comes out
of the tunnel at Yankee Station
If LIRR
counts-The Old Long Island City branch (I thought
they closed it when they closed the stations last
year but I was wrong-I rode on it the other day and
as an express its even
better!!!)
Favorite Car: The old
IND trains (R1-7 I think)
2nd:BMT Standards
Honorable mention:
The old LIRR Double Deckers
align=right>JEFF ROSEN
Which scheduled trains take that old express run. The website says nothing. I'm going to check out some subway stations to update my MVM list then go on some sort of commuter rail tour on Thursday. I'll report it all here (if anybody cares).
# 1 Favorite Subway Car - R 15 in the 6200 series--loved the porthole windows on doors. Also these had the a/c units unlike the 5900's that had fans. Also loved the caned coverings on the benches. They put impressions in the skin and the soul of a youngster.
# 2 - Favorite Subway Car - R 33 / R-36 Flushing Line Worlds Fair Colors. Thought they were cool, especially the cars named after the states. Also loved the wide panoramic side windows. Too bad the TA had the bad taste to paint them red. Lost some uniqueness when that was done.
Favorite Subway Line - #7 (What else). My gateway from Sunnyside to the world.
Favorite spot. #4 Southbound as it leaves 161st street and flies into the southbound tunnel.
Favorite Station - 42nd St - Eighth Avenue, lower level---feel sorry for an orphan
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the only air-conditioned R-15 was 6239, coincidentally the one that ended up in the Transit Museum. The equipment was retrofitted into the car ca. 1955 and was removed some time before the car went into the Museum. If you'll notice next time you're there, the car has fans.
David
[# 1 Favorite Subway Car - R 15 in the 6200 series--loved the porthole windows on doors. Also these had the a/c units unlike the 5900's that had fans. Also loved the caned coverings on the benches. They put impressions in the skin and the soul of a youngster.]
My favorite line is #6 and favorite subway cars is R42/44/46/62 & 110a.
Peace Out
Meaney
Actually when I was younger, I used to like the N. The reason this was the one line I did not know about it until I took it from CI. The next reason the R46 car with the blue stripe. Growing up on the IRT, the sound of the door closing really amazed me. I also loved the seating arrangement on the R46. I did not have kneel on the seat to look out the window as I did on the 4 train (the rust train I called them because the cars look like it was well rusted at that time). For nostalgia reasons, the N-Sea Beach is runner up in favorite line and the old R46 with blue stripe was my favorite cars..........
3TM
Eugenius D Train asked:["Which scheduled trains take
that old express run. The website says nothing. I'm
going to check out some subway stations to update my
MVM list then go on some sort of commuter rail tour
on Thursday. I'll report it all here (if anybody
cares)."]
On the bottom of every schedule there is a
box that's titled "L.I. City & Hunterspoint Ave
Service" 5 trains go to and leave from LIC each
weekday. Some go through Hunterspoint & Woodside on
the regular route. I don't know which ones take the
LIC route but I took the 5:33 to Oyster Bay last
week and it took the old LIC route. (Without the
stations such as Penny Bridge)
[ Which LIC LIRR trains take the Montauk Line ]
The ones which do not show a stop at Hunterspoint.
Other question: What are the ticket booth/TVM hours at LIC or Hunterspoint Avenue (if they have ticket windows or TVMs to begin with)?
There are no ticket booths there.(So you gotta pay on the train) At least not at
LIC. To get to the LIC station get off the "7" at
the 1rst stop in Queens (forgot the name but its the
stop after Grand Central) and walk about 4 blocks
south. If your going by car its the last exit on
the LIE just b-4 the Midtown Tunnel Toll Plaza. It
does not look like a station. It looks like a train
yard. You actually have to cross tracks to get to
your train. There are no platforms- the metal
platform on the train is lifted to reveal the stairs
(as in the old days b-4 the raised platforms) I
know the 5:33 to Oyster Bay takes the old LIC
branch. I don't know about the others. Its a great
ride to Jamaica!!! (reminded me of the Straussburg
RR without the Amish!!!)
The 1 station stop in Queens on the 7 is Vernon-Jackson. I think you meant the second station stop which is Hunterspoint Ave. There is a Hunterspoint Ave stop on the LIRR....
3TM
[ The 1 station stop in Queens on the 7 is Vernon-Jackson. I think you
meant the second station stop which is Hunterspoint Ave. There is a
Hunterspoint Ave stop on the LIRR.... ]
Actually, Mike, Jeff was probably referring to VJ on the 7, and the LIRR Long Island City station (or, as the sign says, "Long Island City Passenger Yard").
Jeff was also correct in that LIRR #562 leaves LIC at 5:33PM, and goes to Oyster Bay via the Lower montauk branch and Jamaica. Those of you who have never taken the trip, the LIC station is a train yard, and the ride on the Lower Montauk is fabulous, passing through queens and Forest Park. It's especially nice on a pleasant spring, summer or fall afternoon, while standing on the platform of a P72, behind the lead loco.
Recently, though, they have installed a small high-level platform (about 1 car length, and in a _really_ inconvenient location all the way south and east in the yard), to accomodate the new Bilevels, which don't have traps/steps.
LIRR #562 used to run doubleheaded MP15s, but now is running Push pull with a GP38 on the east, and a MP15 as power pack on the west.
Sometime last year, some subtalkers came out for the last run that 562 or any LIRR train would make with local stops along the line. We picked up and dropped off the usual half-dozen people along the way, and marked the official closing of all local stations along the Lower Montauk.
Somehow, making that run with with bilevels and a spaceship (DE30) seems very unnatural.
[Recently, though, they have installed a small high-level platform (about 1 car length, and in a _really_ inconvenient location all the way south and east in the yard), to accomodate the new Bilevels, which
don't have traps/steps.]
One good thing about the platform's location is that bilevel riders get to walk most of the way through the yard. Train yards are usually off-limits to everyone but railroad employees, so this is an unusual opportunity.
Steve, does the bi-level take the lower Montauk route or does it go to Hunterspoint and through the regular run to Jamaica?? I take the J.Robinson Pkway to work every day & I couldn't imagine seeing a bi-level on that overpass!!!!
[Steve, does the bi-level take the lower Montauk route or does it go to Hunterspoint and through the regular run to Jamaica?? I take the J.Robinson Pkway to work every day & I couldn't imagine seeing a bi-level on that overpass!!!!]
The bilevel that leaves Jamaica at 8:14 (it orginates in Patchogue at 6:53) uses the lower Montauk route to LIC.
[ Steve, does the bi-level take the lower Montauk route or does it go to
Hunterspoint and through the regular run to Jamaica?? ]
The Oyster bay trains that I know of that go via Lower Montauk to LIC (#507 Westbound AM, %62 Eastbound PM) are currently assigned "classic" equipment. I don't usually take that train, but the last time I took 507 in in the AM, it had bilevel equipment, and did go via Lower Montauk. It certainly did feel out of place.
Naturally, _all_ the old equipment is going to be replaced with D[e/m]30's and C3's, and I can only assume they'll continue the Lower Montauk routing for some trains, so you'll probably see them running over the Jackie R sometime soon.
Thanks. It is Vernon/Jackson. The Long Is City station is a different station than Hunterspoint.
I liked the R16 but only in so far as their appearance is concerned. They had a number of unique features, combining elements of the R10, R15, and future cars like R21, R27/30 etc. Performance-wise, they were dreadful, with electrical, heating, door problems &c. And they were as slow as molasses. I rode one on the "F" way back when and it struggled to reach what had to be a maximum speed of 35MPH. The local "N"s and "GG"s were dusting us as we laboured along beneath Queens Bvld.
Wayne
Can you imagine what the R-16s would be like without field shunting? The R-68s would outrun them, for Pete's sake. They'd never make it through a tunnel going uphill. Everybody out and push!
The conductors liked them. They were unique B division cars. They were the only ones with handles for door operation.
L.
And Slant R40s.
Second place: A with R38s.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
F line R46 with Rockwell Trucks which gave a comfortably smooth ride a shame those trucks were flawed..
R-36WF on the 7 with the original bluebird paint scheme (and if it's running World's Fair SuperExpress, even better)
The J/Z Broadway El(but I hate the Nassau subway, save for Chambers St.) and the R-42, with the 3 and R-62 a good second.
Favorite IRT line/service: #7-Flushing Express
Favorite BMT line/service: Brighton Line D/Q Express
Favorite IND line/service: A-8th Ave/Fulton Express to the Rockaways
All-time favorite New York subway car: R-10
Favorite current New York subway car: Worlds Fair R-36, R-32 (tie)
Honorable mention: Slant R-40
- Jim (RailBus)
Favorite IND line/service: Time Machine version circa 1966
R1 equipt on the D train to Coney on the Culver
Second Runner up for the Time Machine - circa 1966
R10 eqpt on the A from Euclid to Far Rockaway
Third Runner up for the Time Machine - circa 1968
Q cars on the Myrtle from Metro to B'way
Fourth Runner up - circa 1970 - Q on the Brighton
All-time favorite New York subway car: R 1/9s
Runner up: R32 as delivered
Second Runner up: BMT standards
Third Runner up; R40
Tie, R42 and R46. Fav. line: Q
My favorites are the A line Broad Channel run with the Pre refab slant R40's and a close second the R10's same run.
Favorite Car: R1, with cane seats.
Favorite Line: D on CPW, Brighton on an R1, with the handle clanking as the train rocked.
BTW, what was that handle for? I never knew.
That handle was manual brake. It wold lift and swing out to be cranked.
That handle was manual brake. It would lift and swing out to be cranked.
WOW, I forgot about that handle. I assume you mean that thing that looked like a pump up front next to the front door)
By the way, you mentioned the cane (I called it wicker or straw) seats. I still have on at home which I stole I mean borrowed as a souvenir from the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation in '69. People were taking everything including the real leather straps!!! I carried that seat home on the "J" , the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hemp Bus Comp bus to East Meadow (way b-4 MSBA)!!!! At least I had a seat in rush hour!
I got a leather strap RIGHT HERE from #1619C, October 3, 1969. My Dad has one of those little fans and my Mom has a couple of light bulbs, which don't work in any of her lamps.
Wayne
< I got a leather strap RIGHT HERE from #1619C, October 3, 1969. My Dad has one of those little fans and my Mom has a couple of light bulbs, which don't work in any of her lamps >
Hmmmmm...
I'm keeping track of this, and I estimate if we can locate only 2 or 3 more people, we can assemble our own elevated train from rescued parts!
We'll bring them all together near the Willink Entrance in Prospect Park under the first full moon of the new millennium, recite the magic words "William G. Gove" three times and...
Shouldn't be hard to build a carbody, since it's made of wood. Trucks and other heavy components - that's another one.
Wayne
Can I invite Robert Morganthau? :-)
Bippity-boppity-boo!!!
Do they have left-handed threads, or are they rated for high voltage? A step-up transformer would do the trick if it's the latter.
WOW, I forgot about that handle. I assume you mean that thing that looked like a pump up front next to the front door)
By the way, you mentioned the cane (I called it whicker or straw) seats. I still have on at home which I stole I mean borrowed as a souvenir from the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation in '69. People were taking everything including the real leather straps!!! I carried that seat home on the "J" , the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hemp Bus Comp bus to East Meadow (way b-4 MSBA)!!!! At least I had a seat in rush hour!
WOW, I forgot about that handle. I assume you mean that thing that looked like a pump up front next to the front door)
By the way, you mentioned the cane (I called it whicker or straw) seats. I still have on at home which I stole I mean borrowed as a souvenir from the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation in '69. People were taking everything including the real leather straps!!! I carried that seat home on the "J" , the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hemp Bus Comp bus to East Meadow (way b-4 MSBA)!!!! At least I had a seat in rush hour!
My favorite subway lines are the 5 and 6. My favorite cars are all Redbirds and R-62s because I associate them with my beloved IRT lines.
From Pelham Bay dave SR
Favorite cars: Low v
Faverite Div. IRT
Favorite Line: No.6 Pelham Express
Second Best. No.1 Bway/7 Ave Local
From Pelham Bay Dave JR
Favorite Cars: R 33'S Mainline
DIV: IRT
Faverite Line: No.5 Line
Second Best: No.6 Line
FAVORITE LINES:
-'5' Long elevated and embankment (Dyre) stretches; great express under Lex; REDBIRDS!
-'A' Ultimate express (59-125); dull weekend local Fulton stretches now express; the ride to Far Rockaway.
-'J/Z' When I'm in the mood for scenery rather than speed.
-'Q' Express inside and out; bridge; SLANTS!
FAVORITE CARS:
-After the fact, R-1/9s. Hated them when they were still running in the 70s, but I sure miss the sound, speed, and even smell, now.
-Aesthetically, R42s. As a kid, they were a 'glamour' train, showing up occasionally on lines dominated by R16s,27s and 32s. Don't forget, air conditioning and huge colored end marker signs were a novelty in 1969. They were pretty fast on the late, lamented 'N' express, too.
-Currently, Slants. The 68s have made them seem even faster than they are. They also keep my son quiet and in one place- the front!
My all-time favorite route to this day: the A.
Other favorites: D, Q, 2, 5, 7 (let's go Mets!).
Sentimental favorite: N when it ran express along Broadway.
Expresses in general, especially with fast cars.
Favorite cars: tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s. The former for their symphony of sounds and the latter for their sheer speed and long association with my favorite route.
Admittedly, I didn't care much for the BMT standards when they were still around, but I've come to appreciate them for what they were.
Out of the current fleet, my vote goes to the R-32s, although I liked them even better as delivered. Honorable mention goes to the R-38s, slant R-40s, and of course, the beloved Redbirds. Basically, any car shorter than 75 feet with a railfan window.
Favourite Lines:
- IND: IND Fulton St Line & Rockaway Extension.
- BMT: The Broadway (Brooklyn) / Jamaica El. It's the closest thing we have of the late, great BRT elevated network, and it runs through the amazing Broadway Junction complex. The second runner up for me used to be the West End Line, but with the R-68s there, it's not nearly as much fun. Now it's the Brighton Line, having grown up 3/4 of a block from the Brighton Beach terminal station.
- IRT: The Flushing Line.
Favourite subway car:
- Existing: The R-32. It's the Energizer bunny of the fleet.
- Retired: The R1/9s.
--Mark
I took a picture of that old "Canarsie" sign in Times Square station today, that has been visible lately due to the rennovation of the station. You can find it at http://www.lirrhistory.com/canarsie.html
I'll keep it available for a week or so.
Thanks for the posting. It's not at all what I expected.
Wow! That's a heck of a leak there - call the plumbers! I wonder why a sign to Canarsie would be in Times Square station when the Canarsie line is 28 blocks south.
Wayne
[I wonder why a sign to Canarsie would be in Times Square
station when the Canarsie line is 28 blocks south.]
It was for BMT riders in the pre-Unification days. The idea was for Canarsie-bound riders to take the BMT Broadway line to Union Square, then to connect to the Canarsie line (still the most logical routing, of course).
I would guess that Canarsie was a more important "destination" in those days than it is today.
Where in the station is the sign?
I'd like to see it.
As you pass the new escalators that they put in (as you head from the 7th Av line to the BMT, look upward you will see a slighty faded black paint on white background "Canarsie". I am sure there is more to that sign than we can see.
Those signs were at the entrances to all the BMT stations.
Today i just added pictures on R26/28/29/33/36 & R62. Check out my subway's page and more pictures to come.
Peace Out
Meaney
I just saw it. Nice shots of the 3 line.......
3TM
How come the 2 and 3 lines are not designated as the 7Av/Bway express?
They make 2 stops along 7Av and 2 stops along Bway. Then you got the express stop in the middle, 42St, where it is 7Av and Bway. Can anybody help me out here?
3TM
That's because the 1 is the 7 Avenue-Broadway, the 2 3 are 7 Avenue-Lenox.
The MTA labels lines based on there midtown/downtown patterns. For instance, the #1, 2 and 3 are designated as the 7th Avenue lines. While the N, Q and R are considered Broadway. Another example is the J, M, and Z, they are the Nassau Street Lines. B, D and F are the 6th Avenue Lines. And the A, C, E are the 8th Avenue Lines. So, there's no such thing as the #1 as being the Broadway local. Perhaps you mean it is a 7th Avenue Local.
I'm the Broadway Local
N Broadway Local
The 1 and 9 are known as the 7 Avenue-Broadway Locals. the 2 and 3 are known as the 7 Avenue Expresses.
That's really confusing to tourist. If the 1/9 is a Broadway line, why isn't it shaded yellow like the N (me), Q and R lines?
It's not. It's a Seventh Ave line. Remember, they coded them for the business district.
-Hank
This is what I wanted to hear. Thank you Intentionally left blank! (The number 1 is red because it is a seventh avenue line). Why can't anyone else see that?
N Broadway Local
YELLOW CODED ON WHITE LETTERING
This is what I wanted to hear. Thank you Intentionally left blank! (The number 1 is red because it is a seventh avenue line). Why can't anyone else see that?
N Broadway Local
YELLOW CODED ON BLACK LETTERING
Before the R-62a's ran on the 1, the route signs on the car sides always read "Broadway Local". Presumably because most of the line's run - from 42nd St. to 168th St. and again from 215th St. to 242nd St. - was on Broadway.
The signs on the 2 and 3 read "7 Av - Exp" (note the hyphen). In other words, they were expresses, and they ran on 7th Avenue, but not necessarily at the same time. In fact, as was pointed out, half the express run was on 7th Ave. and half on Broadway.
I think the signs on the redbirds still say "Broadway Local" for the 1. Or maybe it is "7 Av/Broadway Local". Anyone know for sure? The latter would be analogous to, say, "8 Av/Fulton Local" on the C.
On the 2, it just says 7 AV Express. There is no hyphen......
The old roll signs (the ones without the "bullets") had a hyphen.
The Q is orange, not yellow. Hopefully in the future it will be yellow again.
Actually, it depends on where you stand. At Times Square, the northbound local platform is signed 'Broadway Local'; the southbound local platform is signed '7th Ave Local'. Most stations south of Times Sqaure are signed eithere '7th Ave Local' or '7th Ave-B'way Local' Stations north of Times Square seem to have only 'B'way Local'
-Hank
It is because most of the route is on 7 Ave. It has always puzzled me too because it is the express for the B'way/7 Av Local. The 4, 5, and 6 aren't called the Lexington Avenue/Park Ave Line, and every street it goes under. The J, M, and Z should not be called the Nassau Street Line, there is only one stop under there (Fulton).
that is weird. Nassau streets exprees and local. It only skip one stop. A station that will not last very long. And as you mentioned it is not on Nassau Street either.........
The TA's idea was to give a unique name to each subway route (not necessarily line), and the name had to be a Manhattan designation (except for the G, which doesn't go to Manhattan). And in Manhattan the TA chose the street the train passes under at 42nd St. (which is also the station from which the IND started its color-coded station groups), except for the L, the 7 and the J/M trains, which don't cross 42nd St. They could have called the J/M the Broad St. express/local, I suppose, but Nassau St. is just as good. And the express/local designation doesn't refer to the service on the street of the train's designation, but to the fact that the train is always a local or is ever an express (the F and E used to simply be "express," but on the new light-diode signs, the description alternates between "Queens Express" to "8AV Local" or 6AV/Culver Local."
In that case, shouldnt the 4,5,6 should be called the Park Av Express and Local.....
The Metro North Runs on Park Avenue too. Should they call it the Park Avenue Express? No, because it only serve two stations. Besides, the 4, 5, 6 runs on Park Avenue South.
Actually, where the 4,5 and 6 cross 42nd -- if you were going to be completely accuate -- it would have to be called the Grand Hyatt express or local, since the line's at a diagonal to the street and going under the hotel at that spot. But that would really confuse everybody.
Well the have it as the Park Ave. South Local and Express.......
3TM
The Broad St station is at the intersection of Broad, Wall, and Nassau.
-Hank
I always wondered why they didn't call that station Wall St.
The names for the West Side IRT service go back long prior to the TA.
The use of 'Broadway' for '1,' 'Seventh Avenue' for '2,' and 'Lenox Avenue' for '3' were Board of Transportation designations from 1948 when the first R-cars for the IRT arrived.
Before IRT trains carried those numbers, expresses to 242nd Street were called "Broadway-7th Avenue Express" (or "Broadway Thru Express" for the rush hour specials) and locals to 137th were signed "Broadway-7th Avenue Local." Bronx expresses were called "7th Avenue Express." I think locals to Lenox Avenue--145th Street had 'Lenox Avenue Local' signs rather than '7th Avenue Local,' but on this last, my memory may be off.
It always amazed me to see how '242nd Street/Van Cortlandt Park/Broadway' (abbreviated a bit) could be painted in one line on the old metal destination signs.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The local service from South Ferry to 145/Lenox was the 7th Ave. Local. It is now the #3 route, which of course is an express South of 96/Broadway. In 1959, when the TA completed a major rehab of the entire West Side IRT, the 96th junction movements were simplified - all local service (#1) was routed up Broadway to 137 or 242; all express trains went to the Lenox Ave. branch and ultimately to 145th (#3) or 241/White Plains (#2). The old four route system, which required crossing trains at 96th Street, was eliminated.
So that is how they came up with the #1 express and the #3 local?
The elimination of the crossover service at 96th Street was an early example of TA duplicity--the junction was supposed to be rebuilt to replace the level crossovers with flyovers, something along the lines of DeKalb (though that simply moved the delays from the southbound side outside the station to the northbound side). But they did it on the cheap--simply avoid the problem by "improving" service by eliminating it. The northbound side could have been left as is, with just the southbound side rebuilt to allow local/express separation at the station (again, like southbound DeKalb, where the Brighton/4th Avenue shuffle now takes place south of the station instead of north).
But that rebuild went the way of Second Avenue.
I have never understood why so many New Yorkers so passively accept almost anything the TA does without objecting--one of the worst things about the authority system is that those agencies have no accountability to anyone except to those who appoint the board members to those lucrative positions. Even in Board of Transportation days, there was still accountability at the ballot box and under pre-unification operation, the State's Public Service Commission oversaw transit operations officially "in the public interest," which the MTA numbers crunchers don't pay attention to.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Andy - can you possibly help me? I'm trying to track down information on a former LIRR MP-54 car (4137, former 1137, now up at Seashore). Basically, I'm looking for wireing diagrams, etc, for it. I know it's Unit Switch, has Speed Control, and was rebuilt in the 1950's. I tried calling the LIRR, but the person I got was unaware these things existed. Todd says you'd know about this thing, or would be able to point me to a source.
Thanks!!
How come the 2 and 3 lines are not designated as the 7Av/Bway express?
They make 2 stops along 7Av and 2 stops along Bway. Then you got the express stop in the middle, 42St, where it is 7Av and Bway. Can anybody help me out here?
3TM
At 11:33, at 36th St. the 11:19 (R) 95th St. 6090 operating motor, reported a constant blow or air at the C/R's operating position. The strait air and brake pipe were good. I didn't get to pick up this train. Does anyone know what was the problem? I think the trouble car was 6092. Did it have anything to do with the coupler centering device?
Taking the advantage of NYC's great weather, I took an Amtrak train from New Carrollton to NYC this moring. My mission is Redbird hunting. I just came back home.
Today's weather is great! There were blue skies all day long. I went to the Flusing Line first. At Queensboro Plaza, I saw an interesting N train.
This N train consisted of 8 R32 cars and 2 R42 ones. Because I was on the #7 train, I only wrote down the first 6 car numbers.
Astoria Bound <---------->Coney Island Bound
3649-3648-4890-4891-3825-3824-R32-R32-R32-R32
I was sure the last four cars were R32s.
I went to the Flusing line and Jerome Line all morning. I was lucky I found 3 #4 Redbirds. I focused on #2/#5 Redbirds all afternoon. I went all the way up to 238 Street and Dyre Avenue.
I took two rolls of slide film today. Most of them are Redbirds. When the sky is blue, I love the scene of light shining on the Redbird cars.
Today was fantastic!
Chaohwa
Anyone out here help me with some advice and info. I was in the "Great Train store" in the Smith Haven Mall and saw a couple of tapes by "Sunday River Productions" for sale; one was for the New City els during the late 40s and 50s dealing mostly with the transition from gate to steel cars. The second dealt with the last of the NYC trolley lines in Bklyn and the 59th st. bridge line. They were what I consider pricey at $40 each. Anyone have any experience with these tapes so I know if they're worth it?
In addition, I'm actively looking for tapes of the BMT lines from the 1960s on back. Anything on the non-museum ABs, D-types, Q-types, C-types, multis, etc. Boy, it would also be great if they were in color, too!
Mike H
Any info much appreciated
Mike H.:
I have both "New York Elevateds" and "New York's Last Trolleys" videos produced by Sunday River Productions and have no hesitation in recommending both of them. Sunday River delivers a quality product; I have others of theirs on Chicago area interurbans. If you can find it, "New York Transit 1940s" produced by Interurban Videos is also quite good. It covers the Third Avenue Elevated and IRT subways and elevateds in the 1940s. Interurbans has been acquired by Pentrex in Glendale, California.
I can understand your apprehension - there's lots of mediocre product out there. One huge disappointment was "R-9s in the East; Independent Subway Cars on the BMT" by Rail Tapes.
<< One huge disappointment was "R-9s in the East; Independent Subway Cars on the BMT" by Rail Tapes. >>
You're not kidding!
And their videos.....talk about some REAL CRAP.
Other people have gone into the details. Don't waste your money on their videos.
What was disappointing about that particular tape?
Poorly focussed, very grainy, and the same type of shots over and over again.
New York's Last Trolleys, from Sunday River, is 45 minutes, all color. It covers line #35 (Church Avenue), #68 (Coney Avenue), and #50 (MacDonald Avenue). Much PCC action, including footage of #1001 being transported to Branford. It also covers the Queensborough Bridge Railway, including the underground terminal. I've seen this one at train shows for around $30.
New York Elevateds, also from Sunday River is one hour, almost all color. It is mostly early 1950s footage, with some later and some earlier shots. You name it, it's on here - gate cars, Myrtle Avenue, Polo Grounds, crossing gates, snow, SIRT. I've also seen this one priced around $30 at the train shows.
New York Transit 1940s from Interurban (now Pentrex) is just under 20 minutes and, as I recall, is mostly black and white (my younger son just commandeered the VCR so I can't check it out without aggravating Godzilla and Mothra). I haven't seen this one offered for a while but as I recall I paid about $15 for it ten years ago.
All of these tapes are excellent. If you can get to the Greenburg Show at the NJ Expo Center in Edison this weekend you can probably find reasonably priced copies of at least the first two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone out here help me with some advice and info. I was in the "Great Train store" in the Smith Haven Mall and saw a couple of tapes by "Sunday River Productions" for sale; one was for the New York City els during the late 40s and 50s, dealing mostly with the transition from gate to steel cars. The second dealt with the last of the NYC trolley lines in Bklyn and the 59th st. bridge line. They were what I consider pricey at $40 each. Anyone have any experience with these tapes so I know if they're worth it?
In addition, I'm actively looking for tapes of the BMT lines from the 1960s on back. Anything on the non-museum ABs, D-types, Q-types, C-types, multis, etc. Boy, it would also be great if they were in color, too!
Mike H
Any info much appreciated
Last night, I noticed workmen on the Manayunk Viaduct. As you know, this is the part of the route further down the line from the rush hour spur that is the Cynwyd R6.
Are they going to be using this viaduct soon?
No, SEPTA is merely doing the structural restoration to preserve the viaduct and to keep the chunks of concrete from falling (as they have in the past - you've seen the nets placed to catch it?). The one arch completed a couple of years ago, before the shutdown of work, across the Main St/Green Lane intersection is fantastic. When the remainder of the bridge looks like this, won't it be something? Of course, whether rail service will return is a significant question. R6 Ivy Ridge may come back (a longshot), but the more likely scenario is the planned Schuylkill Valley Metro. Stay tuned.
How close was that Ivy Ridge to the present Ivy Ridge on the Norristown R6?
Ivy Ridge on Norristown R6 is 38 steps (literally) from Ivy Ridge the original (Ivy Ridge R6). The original was built and opened in '81 to extend the ex-Pennsy Manayunk line to a new park and ride lot. The station is still intact. When the Ivy Ridge side of R6 quit, SEPTA feared a loss of riders as the Ivy Ridge parking lot had become quite popular (and still is - try and find a parking spot after 9 AM any weekday). To keep the riders, SEPTA built the stairway down to the Norristown side and the wooden platforms and christened it Ivy Ridge.
(I had to use that title:))
This is a short trivia quiz to test your knowledge of subway history.
Can you name the subway related event that happened on these dates?
1. July 25, 1953
2. November 26,1967
3. August 28, 1991
4. June 28,1956
5. November 12,1995
I can answer two of those:
11/26/67 - Chrystie Street Connection opened.
8/28/91 - Union Square wreck.
Question 1 - 7/25/53 - The fare goes up to $0.15.
Question 2 - 11/26/67 - Chrystie St Connection
Question 3 - 8/28/91 - Union Sq Wreck
Question 4 - 6/28/56 - Opening of the Rockaway Line
Question 5 - 11/12/95 - The fare goes up to $1.50.
I have a question of my own. What was the first R62 Kawasaki Car (give me a number) to arrive on NYCT property, what year and what month?
-Stef
P.S. Was I right?
I'm going to take a dumb guess,
#1667, May of 1985.
As for the quiz,
1. Tokens make their debut on the subway
2. The Chrystie St. cut opens, used by various K services
3. A southbound 4 derails north of 14th St-Union Square station.
4. The former LIRR Rockaway line opens as a new subway line to the Rockaways. Originally, an extra 25 cent fare was required for Rockaway travel beyond Broad Channel.
5. Base Fare rises to $1.50.
Sorry, nice try! It was actually earlier. Kawasaki R62 #1304 was the first to be delivered into the NYC Transit System, August 1983.
Anybody out here know when the first Kawasaki R62 set entered service on the 4 line?
-Stef
I just used a picture from this site.
Wrong, as usual:)
Here's another dating game item: 9/9/64.
Last Triplex?
No, the Triplexes were still running smoothly then; their premature phaseout began a month or so later. Good try!
BTW, my aunt's name is Eugenia. She says my grandfather named her after Eugene Onegin, the central character of Chaikovsky's most famous opera of the same name. He was a classical music buff.
9/9/64 - The inaugural run of the R32s with a set running to Grand Central Terminal by the NY Central Railroad.
Hey Steve, do you think the R142s will make their grand entrance by running down the Metro North Line? Wouldn't that be something!!!
What's next?
-Stef
Applause, applause. I remember that date, not because I was there, because I wasn't, but that was my first day of school in second grade.
I only hope the R-142s have some sort of railfan window. It would be nice if they were as fast as the R-32s were as delivered, but that's wishful thinking.
not peeking again!- just a guess, but the first R-32s arrive??/go in service??
I think Broadway El Steve made a mistake when he talked about the extra fare for Rockaway--it was a token (or double the regular fare), and since the fare was twenty cents when the Rockaway line opened, it was twenty cents extra. (NY hasn't ever had a 25 cent base fare--the TA fares were 15, 20, and then 30 cents.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ooops--I made a mistake, too. 8-)
The base fare was still 15 cents when Rockaway opened. Rockaway had the double fare (with a refund if you entered and exited between any of the stations from Broad Channel and on the peninsula.
Sorry about the chronological slip.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
For a moment there, I thought the questions would be addressed to Bachelor #1, Bachelor #2, or Bachelor #3.
Rim Shot!!
(AND I DIDNT PEEK!)
7/26/53- Transit Authority takes over..institutes 15 cent fare w/ tokens..
11/26/67- Chrystie St connection opens...confusion reigns...
6/28/56- connector opens to allow IND trains onto the Mcdonald Ave/Culver el..
11/12/95- first Metrocards go on sale(??)
The 1956 date was the connection from the Libery El to the IND. the Culver connection was opened 2 years earlier. The fare went up to $1.50 in 1995. The Metrocard went on sale in 1/1994
Can you name the subway related events that occured in Philadelphia on these dates?
1.March 4,1907
2.January 22,1995
3.June 1993
4.September19,1938
5.July 1,1999
Let me take a guess:
3/4/07 - Market Street subway/el begins service
1/22/95 - Bids opened for M4 cars
6/93 - 'Owl' service ends on Market-Frankford and Broad St lines, bus replacement service begins
9/19/38 - South Broad St extension opened
7/1/99 - Budds run their last miles (but is this accurate - there are still several trains available for service and, as I've been told, still used on occasion?)
Hey, Steve, if I get this right, do I get a crack at the three bachelorettes? Just don't tell my wife...
The answers are:
1. The Market St. subway opens for revenue passengers(trolleys at first)
2.SEPTA raises fares to the highest in the nation at $1.60
3.Trolley service ends n the 15, 56 and 23 trolley lines(I think I wrote thatquestion as 1993 when it was 1992)
4. BSS opens south of City Hall to Lombard-South
5. According to the SEPTA employee I asked, the last day the Almond Joys were to be running.
They are keeping 30 Almond joys for the fall schedule. That is subject to change though. The actully last run for passengers was 7-5-99 for the ERA fantrip.
Hmm, so what's happened to all the conductors from the M-3s? TO
training?
Steve, I think the last PCC's ran in regular service on 15, 23 and 56 on 9/10/92. That's the date etched in my mind. I took pix of 56 line in last August '92 so I'm fairly certain it wasn't June.
I've seen a photo in a book of a B-Division car with an orange 'V' front sign, and several recent posts on this board also mentioned seeing unused codes like 'W', '13" on signs. Does anyone know if the side route signs on the IRT Redbirds and the BMT/IND R-32/R-38 cars have readings for such unused letter/number codes (other than discontinued services like the 'H' nd 'K')?
Just curious.
- Jim (RailBus)
On the GC Shuttle there are upside "11"'s on the cars.
In recent months on the 1/9, I've seen designation numbers 11, 12 and 13 on out-of-service trains going up the center track above 96th, presumably to the yards. The colors were, if I remember correctly, the 11 was a kind of greyish light green (different from 4,5,6) and the 12 and 13 were violet/light purple (lighter than the 7).
You can find all the current bullets here.
BTW, clever handle:)
What's T for? We've seen all the others discussed. Is this a new West End service if the North side of the bridge closes?
This would be a restoration of the Broadway West-End. It's not on any signs, in that form, though. only the R-32/38 signs have T, but in a white bullet (along with P, U, X and Y). The yellow B, was what represented that route on these signs. No the R-44/46 electronic side signd have the T as various West End routes (via Bway, 6th Av or Nassau).
T was the pre-Chrystie St. marking for the Broadway-West End Express. It succeeded the old #3 route which the Triplexes carried when they ran on the West End late in their careers. The R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s came from the factory with these signs in place and, in fact, operated on that route. I remember seeing a few T trains of R-32s on Saturdays in the fall of 1967.
What about the N in a light brown that I have seen on a R40? Is this an anamoly?
Humble opinion that the "light brown" you saw for the "N" was actually a faded, dirty yellow.
I once saw a yellow diamond M on the left side of the last car of an R-42 N running northbound at 36 Street in Astoria. It was an upside-down W apparently.
There are some cars in which the roll sign was put in upside down. That is why you will have conflicting letters inside and out. When I was on the M, I practically had those car numbers memorized. I told the RCI's, and put it on the car defect sheet. Nothing was ever done to correct this.
You might have seen #4320 there - he has what appears to be an ORANGE "N" with a white letter.
Wayne
What about the yellow diamond-Q on the R-68? Before they were moved off the Q, every Q train (incorrectly) had a yellow diamond instead of an orange circle.
>What about the yellow diamond-Q on the R-68? Before they were moved >off the Q, every Q train
>(incorrectly) had a yellow diamond instead of an orange circle.
The Q, now a 6th Avenue line, used to be a Broadway express under the name QB. It's only designation was diamond, no circle. It ran up the now-unused express tracks on the Broadway line. Same route in Brooklyn, except went all the way to Coney Island. Don't remember when it changed from yellow to ornage, but it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things.
But the QB in the Red circle never had the diamond designation. In the way that the TA did things, curiously, it appeared on the same R42 roll signs as the Eastern Division lines.
According to TA convention, the diamond means a special rush-hour service. So why isn't the 9 in a diamond?
My theory is that the diamonds apply to express rush hour
routings(like the 6) or line
extensions(like the M).
The 9 and
Z are skip stop locals that run the whole length of
a trunk line and maybe don't count.
If memory serves correctly, the 9 when conceived, originally ran all day M-F from approx. 7AM to 7 PM. Only recently has it been cut back to rush hours only. Guess the TA doesn't want to spend the money to modify the signs.
The #9 started running on August 21,1989 from about 7am-7pm. On September 6,1994 this was changed to rush hours only.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think (someone else may have posted this) that the Diamond designation applies only to lines which have special rush hour service in addition to their regular service. The #9 and the "Z" are rush-hour ONLY, so they have no non-rush hour service, hence, the sign is a bullet. I HAVE seen diamonds for #9 and "Z" on the route guides on the back of the previous edition of the subway map.
Wayne
Z(K) or J/1 or 9 should use the middle track.
Z(K) or J should operate express: Essex Street, Myrtle Avenue, and Broadway East New York. Then, skip stop service until Crescent Street should be accomplish. Next(third track should be constructed), the express to Supthin Blvd.
As for the 1 or 9, it should operate as express: 96th Street to 157th Street (maybe 168th Street). Then, local until 191st Street. And last, express to 238th Street.
The QB was considered a part of the Eastern Division at that time because it ran on the Brighton Line in conjunction with the M. As we all know, at that time the QB was a rush hour only service. I don't think diamonds were used by the TA at that time. To Manhattan in the morning, return lite on the way back, except the first 2 intervals which went to Astoria, came back as a RR to 36 St., then came back lite to Stillwell. But on the PM, they did go in service to 57/7, then came back to Stillwell.. Except the last 2 which were RR Astoria layups on paper, but re-emerged as QB trains with RR crews aboard. After they would arrive at Stillwell, they would usually go lite over the West End, change ends at 36 St, and lay up at 59 St, "middle". On all the other QB intervals,there were no QB line crews, they were all M crews. Most AM jobs were overtime specials (all road specials and virtually all switching & platform specials have now been eliminated). A few jobs which started on the late AM at Stillwell (which I worked when I was a Vacation Relief Conductor many times), would do a trip to Metropolitan, come back to Stillwell, have lunch, go to Stillwell yard, to pick up your train, then do the QB trip. Let it be known, the QB was a very desirable line to work: many times you didn't do your trip because of car shortages. They would always drop a QB trip before a D or M interval. So we would sit around. In todays railroad, seldom is the TA unable to make full service.
Actually, there was a time in the 60's when the Q was in existence along with the QB and QT. The Q ran express from 57th to either Brighton or Coney. I don't remember which one.
The Q ran 57/7-Brighton Beach, the QB and QT ran Astoria-Coney Island.
The M (Brighton-Nassau) ran BB to Chambers in the am rush and Chambers to Coney Island in the pm rush.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Q and QT ran at the same time, Mon-Fri 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM or thereabouts. In the mid-60s, the Q ran local in Brooklyn during middays. The QB ran by itself during nights and weekends.
When the Chrystie St. connection opened, the QB went from being a late-night-and-weekend local to a rush hour, peak-direction-only express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn and was color coded red. When colors became identified with Manhattan trunk lines, the QB went from red to yellow to identify it as a Broadway route, and at the same time became a diamond marking which denoted it as a rush hour service. When double letter markings were dropped in the mid-80s, the QB became the Q, but it still remained yellow. When the Manhattan Bridge fiasco began, the Q began running all day in both directions on weekdays, but since most rolling stock had only diamond Q signs, it was still marked that way on trains, but appeared as a circle on maps. When the south side tracks were closed, the Q was rerouted up 6th Ave. and became orange - at least on maps initially.
The round orange Q seems to have made it to all car types, the latest being the R42s that seem to have made their new home there. The slants they displaced must be over on the "N".
Wayne
I believe the 11 is purple. The 12 is red. I think there is also a green 10. I have see a green 8 on the 6 line a year ago........
3TM
I have two questions about the LIRR Flatbush branch.
1. How much, if any, of the line along Atlantic Avenue is underground?
2. Are the tracks and platforms at Flatbush Terminal above or below ground?
[I have two questions about the LIRR Flatbush branch.
1. How much, if any, of the line along Atlantic Avenue is underground?
2. Are the tracks and platforms at Flatbush Terminal above or below ground?]
I would estimate that about two-thirds of the line is underground. It runs at ground level from Jamaica to the Morris Park diesel yard and at the East New York station. There is an elevated portion that begins a short distance west of the East New York station and runs to the Nostrand Avenue station.
Although the Atlantic Avenue terminal is below street level, the ground on the north side has been dug out to create a parking area for employees, exposing the terminal's north wall. This is most apparent from Tracks 1 and 2.
Actually, the East New York station is practically at street grade. Customers at that station exit and enter from street level -- there is no stairways necessary. The ticket booth (the rare times it is open) is located in a dingy underpass beneath the roadbed and runs between the two service roads of Atlantic Ave.
The LIRR Flatbush branch is forced to the surface due to the Bay Ridge Freight line which crosses beneath the East New York stop in a distinctly North-South direction (For further details see prior posts on the subject). Prior to 1914, the Flatbush and the Bay Ridge branches crossed each other at grade in a massive (and dangerous) intersection of rail lines that also included BRT streetcar routes.
The "trench" area at Atlantic Terminal that is currently used by emoployees and LIRR vehicles was used for filming some scenes of the Bruce Willis movie "Die Hard With A Venegence". And it also held more trackage going back over the years where at one time a meat-packing plant had freight deliveries from the LIRR.
Doug aka BMTman
There also seems to be a large abandoned brick building between the 2 Atlantic Ave spurs (Sneideker Ave. and Van Sinderend Ave.) on the L train. I noticed once it said Long Island Railroad on it. Anyone know what it is?
That's an abandoned LIRR power substation. It should say that on one of its sides. The brick looks to be in rather excellent shape. Too bad nothing has been done with the building. Maybe loft apartments for future yuppification?
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe, but I've heard those old substationsdhave mercury and PCB contamination. BTW - I think there's another over by the LIC station. You can see these WAY cool LIRR manhole covers (oops, personal chamber access cover :)there. I mean, they are WAY cool. Look turn of the century. BTW - I THINK I've found an old substation on the now (mostly) abandoned Mitchel field line - it's a bunch of large green elecxtrical lockers, all labeled Westinghouse, and WAY overgrown with plants, etc. Next to it is an old, substation looking brick building. Rigtht by where the army/navy complex over there begins. It's right on the tracks, so UI'm guessing that's what it is.
((I THINK I've found an old substation on the now (mostly) abandoned Mitchel field line - it's a
bunch of large green elecxtrical lockers, all labeled Westinghouse, and WAY overgrown with plants,
etc. Next to it is an old, substation looking brick building. Rigtht by where the army/navy complex
over there begins. It's right on the tracks, so UI'm guessing that's what it is. ))
Where is it located? I would like to take a drive down there.
I'll try to get a location this week (difficult - I have jury duty :( )
< Maybe loft apartments for future yuppification? >
I know, let's use it as an LIRR substation to restoe electrification to the Bay Ridge Line for through freights between New England, New York and the West!
Nah! Too crazy!
Forgot to mention in my other post: Flatbush Terminal is located below ground. It actually shares it's platform with the northbound service of the IRT #2 and #3 trains.
Most of the Flatbush branch could be considered subway since only a brief part of it is elevated -- between approx. Schenetedy Ave. to Nostrand Ave. (not a full mile). In old documents regarding the planned reconstruction of the line from surface ROW in 1906 to elevated, it was noted that the original proposal was for a total subway run of the LIRR Flatbush branch. However, that approach was found to be cost prohibitive due to the massive underground sewage system of the cross streets (like Bedford, Nostrand, Brooklyn and Kingston Aves.)
Doug aka BMTman
(Plan for a subway all the way was found to be cost prohibitive).
Penny wise and pound foolish. Brooklyn has virtually no major streets to accomodate truck traffic. Atlantic moves from Conduit to Schenectady, then grinds to a halt under the El. At City Planning, we'd like to see it put underground.
Actually the El part run from Ralph to Nostrand Ave.........
3TM
Do you have a reference for the LIRR 1906 plan?
Does anyone know what influenced subway stations to be placed at the streets where they are located?
Here is an example:
On the Lexington line, the reason a station would be located at 42nd and 14th Street is quite obvious. These streets have always seen a lot of activity since the beginning.
However, what influenced the local stations being placed at 23rd and 28th Streets? Why weren't they placed a block or two before or after that?
Thanks.
I am sure that local politics had a great deal to do with it.
Also what was above (or planned to be above) the potential station was
probably a big influence.
Example: NY Life's building is above the 28th St Station and Metropolitan Life's building is above the 23rd St Station.
Presumably, the only reason 18th Street on the '1' stayed open was due to Barney's being right there. Now that THAT's gone, there's no reason. I would imagine that if the TA were to propose closing ANY station, there would be a huge outcry. Even Dean Street had its fans.
You'll notice the IND lines have many stretches of more than ten blocks between stations. This was no doubt an attempt on the part of the City (which owned the IND outright) to increase trains' speed and efficiency.
The extreme northern Bronx stretch of the '5' has very long stretches between stations because that is the old Boston-Westchester Railroad right-of-way, and the original stations were retained. I suspect no one complained about having a long walk to the station because prior to 1941, there was no rapid transit service at all in the extreme northeast Bronx at all.
[Presumably, the only reason 18th Street on the '1' stayed open was due to Barney's being right there. Now that THAT's gone, there's no reason. I would imagine that if the TA were to propose closing ANY station, there would be a huge outcry. Even Dean Street had its fans.]
18th Street seems to have more ridership than one might imagine. Most mornings I take the 2 or 3 from Penn Station to 14th Street. Because I too had wondered about 18th's _raison d'etre_, I usually try to get a look at the station as my train passes. There often are at least 10 to 15 people on the downtown platform; uptown is usually a little less. These numbers aren't bad at all considering the frequency of 1/9 service during morning rush.
In general, the IRT/BMT stations are just too close -- what you gain in the walk you lose in the dwell time. They relied too much on express service to make up the speed, but on the BMT express service is mostly gone, and on the IRT the expresses are packed.
Unfortunately, there are 1 1/2 times too many stations, not twice a much. Just closing a station generally leaves them too far apart. You'd have to close two stations and open one between them. It might be worth doing on the #6 -- moving Bleeker St right over Houston, sticking out to the south for a two way transfer and closing Spring Street. Soho residents would have to walk to Houston or Canal, Village people to Astor or Houston. Only a couple of block difference. The 28th St stations on the #6 and the BMT Broadway line could be removed without replacement.
I'd think that a little logic.
First, you don't want to put subway stations a great ways apart or they'll be too inconvenient for people to use. They'd have to take a bus between home and the nearest station(something I dislike about both the Washington Metro and Boston T outisde of downtown).
Then they have to be convenient for what is there, like a major street. It's much more logical to have a subway station at 42nd and 7th than 38th and 7th. More foot traffic.
Mainly, they're placed where the people live and where the people go.
23rd Street is a wide-for-Manhattan crosstown street, similar to 14th, 34th, 42nd, etc., so it's a logical place to put a station. Not sure about 28th, but it makes a nice 5-block pattern: 18th (closed), 23rd, 28th, 33rd. :-)
The subways pretty much followed the el station pattern already established when the IRT was built, though the el station distances were in some cases even shorter.
El stations in some spots were only four block apart, while when the IRT was built, it was set up so that the average station distance was between a quarter and a third of a mile apart (five to eight blocks) in the downtown and midtown areas. 14th to 18th streets and Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall were the shortest disance between stations on the original line -- short enough to close those stations when the platforms were extended after WWII.
I think you meant to say Brooklyn Bridge to Worth St. City Hall is indeed very close to Brooklyn Bridge and wasn't heavily patronized. The main reason it was closed was because the cost of lengthening it to accommodate longer trains would have been prohibitive, and since it was so close to Brooklyn Bridge, it wasn't worth it. Worth St. was lengthened before it was closed, however.
Acutally, I forgot about Worth, but you're right, the same reasoning applies.
Four blocks is the absolute minimum the TA allows between stations, and those are usually limited to high-density business areas (Chambers-Park Place on the 2/3, Fulton-Wall on the 4/5). On the 1/9, 18th street apparently survived because the 14th St. station extends south to 12th St., instead of north to 15th and 16th sts., like it does at Union Square.
Also, it should be mentioned here, that when the IND was built they used a formula of "no more than 3 (stations) in (a) 20 (Block Stretch). I expect that this was due to complaints about the short distances on the IRT Like 14th, 18th, 23rd, 28th on 7th Ave., and 14th, 18th on the Lex.
The IND also introduced High Speed turns and the 59th to 125th Street Express run. All ideas to set them apart from the IRT.
Spent the weekend in London with the wife. Here are my observations
and comments. Landed at Heathrow Saturday AM. Took Piccadilly line
into town. Bought a 2 day pass for &6.70, great deal. You can ride
the new electric express train to Paddington for &10, 15 minute trip,
but they were handing out discount tickets for &5!!!
The ride in took 45 minutes. Stayed at Marriott Marble Arch, off of
Edgeware Rd. Changed from Piccadilly to District Line at Baron's Court, across platform transfer. District Line train only ran to
High St. Kensington because of signal problems, had to take bus to
Nottinghill Gate for Central Line train to Marble Arch then walked up
Edgeware Rd. in the rain.
As the weekend went on, we were inundated with problems. Flooding
forced the closure of both Paddington and Victoria Underground stations off and on over the weekend. The Circle line was closed for
repairs and other service was sporadic.
The "tube" lines were built for a city with about a quarter of the
capacity as London has now. There is no air-conditioning and everyone
must pass out their farecards through a controlled system. Imagine
having to read your Metrocards at Penn Station at 5PM!!!
The "railway" lines (District, Hammersmith & City, etc) are incredibley slow. The trains are dirty and filled with litter.
The day passes are a good deal, especially since you can use the busses. This is probably the best way to get around what is called
"Zone 1."
It is amazing how good the New York City subway system looks compared
to London Transport.
I was rummaging thru the MTA web site and found that they have a section in the Surplus Materials area for Memorabilia and Collectibles.
From the looks of things the TA has high hopes for this (I will be shocked if it works).
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/index.html
I saw only one Item in there so far. Anyone want to bid on 1000 NYC Transit Baseball Caps?
From
I love the T-shirts for each line, my favorite is the 8 Avenue-Fulton Express. A perfect gift for that person who is unfaithful to her husband.
[I love the T-shirts for each line, my favorite is the 8 Avenue-Fulton Express. A perfect gift for that person who is unfaithful to her husband.]
Huh? Are you saying your wife is unfaithful for taking the A instead of "Mr. D. Train"? Or maybe for going out to a club that plays Duke Ellington music? What is the connection exactly between the A-train T-shirt and unfaithfulness?
It would make a lot more sense if the A train didn't use a blue letter, but rather a "Scarlet Letter."
BTW, I'm not married.
I just found out that I will not be able to attend today's Fan Trip to the Rockaways and Long Beach. Sorry for the late notice.
I was at Bowling Green and had some time, so I decided to look for where the entrance was to the the old shuttle platform and was surprised to find the stairs open without even so much as a closed sign. Is this a recent development, or have they been open all this time?
They've been open all along. The escalator to that platform, however, has been cannibalized. The platform used to be for the South Ferry shuttle, which was dicontinued in the mid 70s.
-Hank
Really? I've been there a couple of times and never noticed that staircase. And a motorman started yelling at me for standing there and taking pictures.
Well I was suprised to see the R110A Running today ofcause Out of Service. I spotted it going Northbound at Rectors Street. It must have came down the Lexington Ave Line. Anyway as I was going Northbound I seen it at 242 St/Bway Terminal from 238 Street.Then It went in the Middle adjacent 238 Street. I don't know if it also went in 240 Yard but they looked like they were going to do a reverse move.
Perhaps someone is studying the feasibility of having the R142s on the Broadway Local. If that's the case, then for certain the R62As will be kicked of the 1.
-Stef
[ Perhaps someone is studying the feasibility of having the R142s on the
Broadway Local. If that's the case, then for certain the R62As will be
kicked of the 1. ]
What could be unfeasable about it? I could see some difficulties on some lines, i.e. the 3 with Lenox yard and 9 car trains, the 7 might be awkward to get to certain shops (and people might expect 11 cars), but what would be difficult about the 1?
Maybe they're worried that the new cars will fall off of the broadway viaduct :) (ouch).
Well the No.1 Broadway Line has 10 R62A cars from the No.6 Line. I had that train on my last trip. Operating Motor No.1865
One more thing I would like to add. Some of you may know this but Pelham is starting to lose its R62A'S. Lets take a look at the Number of cars that left already.
No.1 Line has 10 cars from Pelham.
No.3 Line has 13 Cars from Pelham 1901-1914 1909 Unknown
No.5 Line 20 cars from pelham
What Line will get them next?
Because #5 gets two R62As from #6, two R33s from the 239 Street Yard go to #6.
I believe some cars from other yards will go to Pelham.
Chaohwa
Hey Dave Sr. Don't forget the R62a #1915 because i took the picture two weeks ago & it on my subway's page. Damn that my favorite line and subway cars.
Peace Out
Meaney
Hey Dave Sr. Don't forget the R62a #1915 on #3 line & it on my subway's page. Damn that my favorite line and subway cars.
Peace Out
Meaney