Hi,
I have a few questions about what may have been old Sea Beach connections not used:
(1) Heading from 8th Ave. to 59th St., where the middle tracks merge with the two outer tracks that connect to the 4th Ave. line, a two-track wide ramp rises in the direction of 4th Ave. Did this connect to some el line in years past or go to some other location and was it in revenue service?
(2) Also in that area, on the Manhattan bound local track, I recollect seeing, in the concrete wall, what looked lie a closed up one-track tunnel entrance. I don't recollect that it still had a track connection to the Manhattan-bound Sea Beach track. Do I remember this correctly? If so, where did the track lead to and was it in some actual use? How did trains get back heading in the Coney Island direction?
Mike Rothenberg
The ramp tunnel in the direction of 4th Avenue enabled Sea Beach trains to reach a station next to the 65th Street terminal station of the 3rd Avenue L, and the shore.
The wall pocket was a freight siding. I've got the name of the company somewhere, but not handy. I think Larry,Redbird,R33 may have that info.
I think the freight siding lasted into the '50s. I don't know when the tunnel to the shore was sealed.
One thing I haven't seen is a map of the pre-subway BMT elevated lines (and, I guess, surface lines that were used for trains and not streetcars). Like Manhattan, and unlike the Bronx and Queens, Brooklyn did have extensive development organized around the el. The oldest BMT map I've seen shows the 4th Avenue Subway.
I had heard that the Sea Beach orignially went to the ferry terminal at 65th St. Did it ever get up on the 5th Avenue El? Did the 5th Avenue El also accomodate the West End and Culver Lines?
Interestingly, Brooklyn's 5th Avenue includes three huge "main streets," each with as much commercial floor area as a regional shopping mall -- in Park Slope, Sunset Park, and Bay Ridge. Parts of 3rd Avenue in Bay Ridge are also commercial. Meanwhile, 4th Avenue is primarily residential or mixed industrial/automotive. Only after I learned Brooklyn's transit history could understand why this was so.
< One thing I haven't seen is a map of the pre-subway BMT elevated lines (and, I guess, surface lines that were used for trains and not streetcars). Like Manhattan, and unlike the Bronx and Queens, Brooklyn did have extensive development organized around the el. The oldest BMT map I've seen shows the 4th Avenue Subway. >
Excellent and fun to look at is the ERA's Tracks of New York Number 2, which shows the BRT L system (including surface tracks)at 1910. Lots of detailed track drawings and pictures. AFAIK out of print for a long time, but I have seen it on eBay. Defnitely worth scraping the budget for.
< I had heard that the Sea Beach orignially went to the ferry terminal at 65th St. Did it ever get up on the 5th Avenue El? Did the 5th Avenue El also accomodate the West End and Culver Lines? >
Services changed over time. The Sea Beach and Culver each had ferry terminals--I believe the West End had access to the Culver's dock at 39th Street at one time. The Sea Beach had a terminal on the water, not the same location as the later 69th Street Ferry.
The West End had a surface terminal at 25th Street and 5th Avenue, originally to meet Brooklyn horsecars. Later the 5th Avenue L ended at 25th Street and you could switch to the West End there.
As to 5th Avenue L service on the surface lines--L service ran on Culver and West End and on the Sea Beach splitting from the West End at Bath Junction (62nd-Junction). When the junction was split, Sea Beach trolleys/buses/subway cars had a station at 3rd and 65th for a walking connection to the L.
Culver's main service was via the 5th Avenue L right up to Unification.
"The Tracks of New York Volume 2" which I mentioned in another reply in currently available on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=123276433
The current bid is $15.50. The auction has two days to go. It is a reserve auction, meaning that if the secret price the seller wants is not reached, he doesn't have to sell it.
On the wall of the dispatchers office at 95/4 is an excellent map of the BMT at it's hight. All the tracks along with SBK are there. It should answer all your questions. The thing is huge maybe 4 foot by three. Can't miss it. Just knock and ask the Dispatcher. Most are OK enough to say yes.
Anyone have any idea why an LIRR Double Decker would be sitting on a siding outside the Wilmington, Delaware Amtrak station? I saw it last week as I was coming back from Baltimore on the Metroliner.
[Anyone have any idea why an LIRR Double Decker would be sitting on a siding outside the Wilmington, Delaware Amtrak station?]
MARC has ordered the same type of cars. Could they be using one of the LIRR's for testing or training purposes?
I doubt it. The MARC bilevels have been sitting in Kawasaki's yard since December. I'm sure that MARC has taken delivery of some of the units by now. Are you sure that they has LIRR markings?
Hi,
Some weeks ago, someone posted a message about some Manhattan-bound peak period B trains running on the express track (presumably between Bay Parkway and 36th St.) leaving many passengers stranded. Could this be a test of possible peak direction express service, without telling riders? Has anything like this been done before?
I recollect someone posting information, some months ago, about the agenda of some Transit Agency meeting involving changes to service in the fall and I thought it noted an increae in B train frequency, to about every seven minutes. Maybe with M service also available on the West End during the peak period, the MTA might be thinking of running some B trains express in that part of its route?
Mike Rothenberg
Unlikely. The B is one of those routes where an express would leave too many passengers waiting on the local platforms with enough time to write to their representatives about the lousy service. Maybe the M should be the express. It runs less frequently and wouldn't be missed by as many people.
Just took a more careful look at the progress on the new Siding, Merrilon Ave to Mineola.
The bridge is in place, and track is currently being laid (Actual work happening as I passed, as in a crane laying rail on ties.).
There is track in place from the switch at Merrilon Ave to the bridge, and the sub-ballast seems to be in place all the way east from there to mineola.
I passed the site today and the new tracks now stretch from just east of Merillon Ave. station to just west of the new Herricks overpass. However, there is still a lot of fill than needs to be put in place on the east side of the overpass. It seems that they have been making very good progress over the last couple of weeks.
I know that, eventually, the LIRR intends to third track the Main Line from the Bellerose area to Hicksville. This is apparently the first stage of that project.
The NY Times Electronic Edition has an article today regarding the 7 Line being named an "historic trail." (The article's author refers to the 'red snake' of subways cars...)
There are photos ( within photos 45-90)of B type standards on a fantrip from 1977 at locations referred to as 160th St and 168th St. Where are these locations please?
While I have not seen the photos in a while, I would say that it is on the Jamaica Line (way before those stations were demolished for the creation of the Archer Avenue Connection).
That sounds right, especially if it's an elevated structure.
There are 42 (yes I said 42) new holders in a theme of "Great Subways of the World". They include Washington and MARTA. They are available singly at $1.50 each or a boxed set for $60 at Transit Musuem Stores in Brooklyn (the museum), Grand Central, Times Square Visitor Center
Actually there are going to be 46.
The first 8 are now available at the Museum store in GCT. The next 8 are due in a few days. There will be up to 8 issued each month for the next several months until all 46 are out.
Of course you can always wait until August for the box set @ $60.00 (that is a savings of $9.00 versus buying them separately).
I have a difficult time obtaining MC Holders, but acquire MetroCards rather easily, so anyone who wants to TRADE just let me know with an e-mail off line. How about 9 MC for 2 holders ?
Mr t__:^)
two trains stuck. Oil fire. two alarm fire. WCBS TV has as lead story.
This is serious with the J being out the A is the main backup- this leaves the L as the only backup- Translate: Transitlock. Maybe this will lead to more lines (doubt it).
What makes this ironic is that just last night/this AM stations issued a three page memo on Station Evacuation!
FDNY and Steve-- your comments
Update: 3 alarm fire, level two police mobilization. 25 injured-minor. Evacuees at Utica Ave and Nostrand Ave. A out from Rockaway Blvd to Nostrand. THIS IS MY COMMENT: I believe the J and L must also have problems since this station complex has one fare control--the IND mezzanine. While I have not heard any news. maybe the J and L are not stopping at this station. True- there is the old mezz at the Manhattan end of the J line but the street stairs have been removed. (If the station is smoke filled the booth and fare control may be closed and if closed the J and L have no place to dump their passengers. (The J and L can share passengers with each other).
I listened to my scanner to hear on the IND frequency what the control center had to say and found that service is suspeneded between Euclid and Utica Avs. Announcements were also made on the BMT frequency stating that block tickets are available for those affected by the fire.
Fire was started by burning debris. What could have set that fire off???
-Constantine
Is the BMT running ? I ask since they share the same fare control as the A line. In emergency situations we really mobilize!
Channel 2 says burning oil and debris- I understand debris but OIL DRUMS? on the subway?
Channel 7 says a customer said the train was burning--no info on car numbers
I understand block tickets but is the booth open? with the smoke? or are they issuing at other stations?What are they doing with te J and L people?
I have no clue, but block tickets are being issued at the various stations affected. J and L service is relatively unaffected. If anything, part of the station is closed off.
J and L people are being advised to find an alternate means of transportation.
-Constantine
Im about to check NY1. I called the transit hotline and they said the fire occurred at Rockaway..........
Service is resumed on the A/C lines (local tracks only) No car equipment was involved. The mayor, President reuter and Senior VP Joe Hofmann have left the scene.
I see where the Post is reporting the fire was arson, breaking out in two different locations including an electrical room. Any idea how accessible a room like that would be for non-TA employees or contract workers?
I just got home from this mess and the TA has once again succumbed to the Hall of Shame status they will inevitably brag about tomorrow. I set a new record for continuous time on an interval without an extra call letter or ABD. Four hours and thirty one minutes total from 207 Street to Far Rockaway. We took well over two hours to go from Jay Street to Utica BEFORE we got to the affected area. The whole trip not one block ticket was issued. One passenger had chest pains while another was fighting. Control was silent to the individual crews in need. If it wasn't for the heavy police presence south of Nostrand, we would have had a riot. All the time with an absolute block not one train was turned at Canal Street. Command Center was trying to put 10 pounds of balogney into a five pound sack. Even with the RTO supervision on the scene the A line was a total disaster area. When you have to sit behind a red signal for fourty minutes at a time, something is very wrong, absolute block or not. Shame on the TA.
There's not much that can be done when there's a fire. Unless a life in in imminent danger, FDNY won't go on the tracks or put water on the fire until they can verify that the power is off. Additionally, they won't hit the fire with water unless they know that what they're attacking isn't a chemical that may cause a problem when water is supplied.
From an operations standpoint, I doubt anyone involved knew everything that was going on, but the operations at that point will be governed first by the needs of the emergency crews, and everything else next.
-Hank
In the early 1970's I saw the SOAC cars, low and high density cars, on rubber tires in Downtown Rochester. These were just full scale prototypes and not the real thing. They were parked by Security Trust Bank on Elm Street off from Main Street.
I remember the pictures in the trade magazines and the actual SOAC cars. When they were in Chicago they could only run them on a portion of the Skokie Swift because they were too wide for the "L" platforms and too long for the curves. They had to build special wide platform extensions for them to test run them if I remeber correctrly.
Is there still a set of them out there? I think someone said they have them at one of the museums.
The SOAC cars now reside at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. To my knowledge, they aren't operational.
I wonder if those 75 foot beauties could be made to run again???
-Constantine
When I was there, I looked (not carefully) at them. They are in pretty good shape, and could probbly run again, I think Todd told me someone was working on it. I don't think it would take too much, though the windshields were in bad shape (due to a lousey design). I think one car is missing it's traction equipment, it also has outboard bering trucks. The meuseum has at least one spare truck on display - I got photos of it wich I'll post in the fall (once I find a scanner on campus )
The SOAC cars are being (slowly) restored by one of our "weekend" volunteers. His progress has been show, however, due to his personal time and money constraints. I'm sure he'd be interested in help - timewise and moneywise. If you want to get in touch with him, drop me an email and I'll forward it to him.
By the way, while they've not run under power at Seashore, I've towed them with our electric engine (#300). Just seeing them move was a thrill!
SOAC 2, the northerly of the two cars as they sit at STM, had its running gear stripped for truck and AC propulsion tests. The program was stopped, so SOAC 2 will never be more than a control trailer. I am not sure whether the braking equipment now on the car functions. I do know that the traction motors in the trucks are wooden replicas.
SOAC 1, on the other hand is complete, and can be made operational, though it will take some effort (the trucks are reversed for starters). If you want to ride an equivalent car - take the A train or the SIRT. The SOACs are really the last two R-44s built - with a different end. The big difference in the ride would be the GS-70 trucks - standard on the (T), Cleveland and Philly but unheard of in NYC.
The SOACs are really the last two R-44s built - with a different end.
I thought the SOACs were the first R-44 types built, and the R-44s (and R-46) were based on the SOAC.
--Mark
The bodies were built by St. Louis as an add on to the R-44 order. They were the last two cars built by St. Louis Car. The body design was pure NYCT, only the ends and interiors were different. The trucks and underbody equipment was where the State of the Art equipment was.
What brakes do the PCC use? The Newark PCCs?
It's not air brakes. There is a dash light "Shaft Brake". What's that?
You might feel like you will get the shaft if those brakes are energized. Only kidding. I believe they are the track brakes which can lift the car in the air while stopping on dime and making 9 cents change for you.
All-electric PCCs (like Newark) use spring-applied, electric-release
drum brakes which are mounted on the driveshafts, rather than
tread brakes which press against the wheels. They are fail-safe
in that in case of a broken wire or dead battery or other electrical
failure, the brakes will be applied by the spring. There is no air
on the car. I think the light was added to indicate that the
drum brakes are applied.
The cars also have dynamic braking and magnetic attraction track
brakes.
One factor in the spring applied brakes is that they only are for making the final stop and holding the car. The dynamic braking goes down to 1 mph, then the actuators release, applying the spring applied brakes. If a car has a bad motor and has to limp in, the dynamics don't function, and the shaft brakes wear out quickly. Boston has air brake PCC cars with tread brakes (converted from shaft brakes) on the Mattapan Line.
1 MPH on the dynamic? That seems very low, even for high-RPM
PCC motors.
Are the Mattapan cars electric or air pilot motors?
Not quite. The remaining PCC's on Mattapan are standard air-electric cars with tread brakes, the way they came from the Pullman plant. The brake shoes are same as used in Baltimore (same air-electrics) and BSM has the pattern, which is supplied when MBTA needs shoes. The "royalty" is several sets of new shoes, which serve very well keeping 7407 (the last standard Pullman built air car in the world) on the road.
The "T" is very happy with the arrangement, it was BSM who found the foundry and arranged for the patterns several years ago.
Ok, so now that I know the mystery of the PCC brakes, a few other
questions come to mind:
*) Treadle? Whazzat?
*) Magnetic attraction track brakes?
*) Sandboxes - how much do they hold, how often did they have to be
filled, and where was sand deployed?
*) Why not remove the old trolley poles? Are they planning on
returning service to 4th street in Philly or Coney Island? :D
A treadle door is one which opens automatically for
exit when a passenger steps into the stepwell, and then closes
behind him or her.
I won't repeat the magnetic track brake discussion because it
was recent. Check the subtalk archives in the last month for
the subject containing the keyword magnetic.
Sandboxes hold a bucket or two worth of sand, and were refilled
at the car houses before the cars went out for service at the
beginnning of each day.
I don't know specifically which poles you are talking about, but
in many cases some trolley poles were left standing after the wire
was taken down because they supported other utilities.
Your other questions were answered in a previous post. As far as 4th St trackage (what hasn't been paved over), the tracks which were once part of Route 50 in 4th and 5th Sts were to be preserved as a "Historic Trolley Loop" (not to be confused with SEPTA's most recent proposal for Chestnut/Arch Sts). The line actually ran the Blackpool "boat" car and a couple of other historic cars during the Bicentennial, when the 50 line had the ex-Kansas City PCC's in the red/white/blue scheme, each named after a state. After 50 was abandoned in the early 80's the track sat dormant in the hopes that the historic portion would return (basically between the Catharine St turnback and a new connection to be built at Spring Garden St or thru new turnouts to allow turnbacks on Girard Ave). This went by the wayside as funding became scarce.
The existing 11th/12th trackage gained new life as a tourist line when the Convention Center was completed in '93, thus the 4th/5th trackage could be expended and it was for the most part. There has been talk about bringing it back, but one block of 5th (Walnut to Chestnut) was completely rebuilt without track, thus it isn't just a remove the paving and re-expose the rail situation. Intersection work done as part of the rebuilding of Market St has also removed the rail in the 4th and 5th intersections. The only long stretches of exposed rail are in the 5th St underpass at the Ben Franklin Bridge and on 4th north of Vine. The rest is history.
Do you remember dashing Dan with his breif case running for a LIRR train? The logo said "The Route of the Dashing Commuter".
COOL LOGO!!!
As far as I can tell it still exists on ONE piece of in-service equipment over by Jamacia's diesel yard (near the Flatbush Line tracks). It is one of the older units that apparently is being kept in mint condition -- perhaps for fan trips??
I recall all the older commuter coaches (the black w/orange ends) used to have that neat logo over near the end doors. That was back in the early days of MTA control, so some of the unique character qualities of the LIRR were still evident.
Doug aka BMTman
"Dashing Dan" also appears on the two protect locomotives at Harold Tower. He once had a woman friend (Dashing Dottie, I think), but I've seen her only on a historical poster.
I THOUGHT I remembered a female commuter, but then I convinced myself that I was losing my mind (of course, that doesn't take much convincing any more)! At one time within the past year or two there was an LIRR historical exhibit in NYP near the main LIRR entrance on 34th(?) street with a picture of Dashing Dan and his companion, IIRC - not sure if it is still there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, she wasn't very popular :/
Periodically, the Dashing Dan logo appears on mainline stuff - I've seen at least one GP-38 with it. The two Harold protect locos have them too. I heard the MTA management went crazy when they found out about that repaint.
Frankly, I like that logo, I'd love to see the LIRR go back to it, but, I doubt they will, given that the MTA feels this burning need to remind us that the LIRR is part of the MTA. You'd have to be living under a rock for the last, oh, about 3 decades not to know that.
I believe the MP-54 at Warehouse Pt still has it, but #4137 doesn't.
Speaking of which, I think I once saw a color shot of LIRR MUs in PRR maroon with the LIRR keystone logo - anyone know if this actually existed?
To answer the question.....I don't think the LIRR "Keystone" logo was ever put on the tuscan red cars. At least I have never seen photos of such a situation. The only place I recall seeing pictures of it on the train equipment was on the "Sunrise Special" logo on a locomotive tender and it was basically the outline of the keystone done in gold.
As for the GP38-2 with the Dashing Dan logos -- I have a cab-ride video from Railroad Video Enterprises and in the audio you can hear the engineer cracking jokes about how he put the DD logos on a GP38-2 just to fool the local railfans!!!
Others have mentioned the "Dashing Dottie" logo -- it WAS on some train equipment, notably the handful of cars that had the pink "window shade" advertising below the windows for "Ladies Days on the LIRR". This was on some MP54 cars and at least one of the 2600-series MP72T cars as well.
There was a THIRD variant of the "Dashing Dan" as well -- actually, it was the second variant, with "Dottie" being the third. This other variant appeared on all the heavyweight parlor cars, and showed "Dashing Dan" in a loincloth with a handful of arrows and a bow; the script in this logo was "Route of the Weekend Chief".
That one (with the loincloth) I definately hadn't heard of - any pics?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are pictures of it in "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" by Ron Ziel and George Foster.
Thanks. That's one I don't have, but I have a friend nearby who does - guess it's time to borrow it!
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
[There was a THIRD variant of the "Dashing Dan" as well -- actually, it was the second variant, with "Dottie" being the third. This other variant appeared on all the heavyweight parlor cars, and showed "Dashing Dan" in a loincloth with a handful of arrows and a bow; the script in this logo was "Route of the Weekend Chief".]
Clearly can't use the bow-and-arrow motif anymore, due to P.C. concerns ... but the LIRR _could_ retain the loincloth, adding a club or spear, and convert D.D. into a barbarian. That would be quite suitable for describing the Penn Station evening struggle for seats on Ronkonkoma trains.
I though it was Dashing Dan and Dora.
For a picture of Dashing Dan, go to http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/dashdan.html
Hello,
I'd like to know if anyone knows which trains, or lines, are now using the LIRR's new DE30AC engines with bi-level equipment?
The Montauk Branch and the Oyster Bay Branch are currently using the new bi-level equipment. The DM30AC's are on LIRR property, but are being tested. But since the LIRR hasn't received the full order of bi-level cars, through service to Penn Station has not started yet.
The bilevels also are used on the Greenport shuttle. In fact, they've been in use for several months (and are beginning to get a little tattered, as you'd expect from the LIRR!)
Thanks. I've been looking for a chance to board one of these trains; do you think the LIRR would be able to tell me exactly which scheduled trains have the bi-level equipment on those branches, if I asked? Or does anyone else know?
I don't want a situation to occur where I'm hoping to board the bi-level cars, only to realize it's a (dirty) single level car train powered by a (noisy) MP15 or FL9 locomotive.
- Jose
If your train was pulled by a noisy FL9 , then your train would have to be a bilevel. Not the new bilevels but the prototypes.
I believe the prototype set is OOS, and for sale. It's not compatible with the new equipment.
-Hank
The ad I saw was in 'Progressive Railroading' or 'Railway Age'. It specified 8 cars currently in service and 2 cars stripped and in "as is" condition. No price was specified!
If you are going to, say Montauk, chances are if your schedule lists the train as "direct" w/o a transfer at Babylon then you can be pretty certain that will be one of the new double-deckers.
Doug aka BMTman
[I've been looking for a chance to board one of these trains; do you think the LIRR would be able to tell me exactly which scheduled trains have the bi-level equipment on those branches, if I asked? Or does anyone else know?]
There's a train to Long Island City that stops in Jamaica on Track One a little after 8:10 am (it originates in Patchogue at 6:53) that always uses the bi-levels.
Do you think a train such as one of the Friday express trains to Montauk would use a bi-level train?
Since it (the Cannonball) still uses Parlor cars, it uses the old rolling stock
Saw it rumbling past Our Lady of Grace church in West Babylon this evening, still made up of ancient coaches, with a red-striped parlour car bringing up the rear.
ONE (the second one) of the 1955 MP-75s looked like it had a fresh coat of paint, the others (including the parlour car) were abstitively filthy!
Wayne
Are any of the bilevels biult as palor cars
There's one bi-level train to Port Jefferson that leaves Penn Station at 4:44p.m. bracketed by two FL9's.
That happens to be the train comprised of the C-1 Prototype cars. It leaves Jamaica, track #4 at 5:12 PM when it runs.
Hi all,
I don't know if anyone out here knows, but on a miserable and muggy Monday, I observed that Amtrak Train 142, headed up north, stalled on the Bridge going into the Bronx. Some 220 passangers were left stranded on the Bridge. Listening to reports by way of the scanner, I heard that AEM7 #923 wasn't taking any traction power, but the HEP was still functional. At least the folks weren't without power in the coaches. Train 94 was dispatched to rescue the folks from that train. #94 stopped side by side with train 142 and passengers were transferred to the rescue train. E60 607 was dispatched to pull the disabled Train 142 back to Sunnyside.
Question: What caused the motor on the AEM7 to fail?
I certainly wouldn't want to be standed on the Hell Gate Bridge! The Hell Gate Bridge is hell if you have no place to go....
-Constantine
Things turned out less unforseen then originally thought. However, I did get to spend a week in Boston.
I did segments of every line:
Red Line from JFK/UMass near our hotel to Harvard. Nice long, stationless runs, but the cars(especially the Bombardier 01800s were kind of bumpy)
Blue Line from Government Center to Aquarium. The line smelled bad and the stations were dark. Though I like the dual-mode cars, it was my least favorite line.
Orange Line from Dowtown Crossing to North Station and Back Bay. I thought it was the best heavy rail line. The cars were nice looking but they look like the Blue Line stock. Are they both Hawker-Siddley cars?
Green Line from Boston University East to Park Street. My absolute favorite. I started getting a bit historic riding through the country's first subway line(as the family can attest). The Type 7's were great, but on the interior, they look like the Boeing Type 6's.
I also saw the Type 8 cars in the Riverside light rail yard. We took Greyhound from Philly to the P.A. and connected to another bus to Boston going and coming. On the return trip, the bus stopped at Riverside and peeking from behind a Type 7 car was the dark-faced Type 8.
Also, at JFK/UMass, there were two Coke machines with fronts that said " Celebrate America's First Subway". I thought that was nice.
The system is very nice, save for the Blue Line, if not a little dim:)
the part of the blue that is in the city is dark. but when it goes above ground, there is a nice shot along the water near Revere Beach. And the aquarium stop is under construction has been since the big dig started. The best thing about aquarium is the steep escalators.
Well, i hope u enjoyed what the t had to offer
Matt
I read that there is an abandoned station under Government Center on the Blue Line. What purpose did the station serve?
It's not entirely abandoned, just one end of it is. Check out the Boston Blue Line page for a picture. From the currently open part of the Govt Center station you can still see the signs "Scollay Under" on the walls in the closed-off part of the station.
-dave
Why was that end of the station closed?
Unneeded with four car trains. When the line expands to six cars that section will return.
The Coke machines were installed system-wide in 1997 as part of the subway centennial ceremonies. The show a sepia colored 1900s trolley, as well as the centennial logo. These machines sell the 20 oz.plastic bottles rather than Coke cans. When they are filled (which isn't always) it is a nice way to refresh.
There are a few below ground snack-bars sorts of things in the system. One can get basic food and drink at JFK/UMass, Downtown Crossing (Alewife side),Park Street (Green Line level, northbound side), Copley (both sides), Government Center (two levels) and Harvard.
Are there any other Boston stations with such amenities inside the turnstiles??
CTA has placed Pepsi machines, selling 20-oz. bottles, in most (all?) of the stations in the last year or so. Typically, there is more than one machine per station, with at least one inside the turnstiles (though rarely on the platform due to space considerations). This is really handy if you're getting on or off at a station without a concession stand or on nights/Sundays when many of the concession stands are closed.
When I rode the Blue Line downtown yesterday (Monday), every single soda machine I went past was empty! To be fair, its not typical for all the machines in a station to be sold out, and this was probably due to the Independence Day long holiday weekend and the unavailability of workers to fill the machines.
a couple of months ago I was in Boston and and I agree the green lines were the best joy rides!
However, Boston Trolley types as far as I know are type 5, PCC, LRV, Type 7 and now type 8. I don't think there was ever an operating type 6 but perhaps Boston experts could clear this up. I rode the Riverside D green line and I was surprised by the on board fare collection system. This may work for 40 foot buses but when you are running a large LRV loading is rather slow. They use Susan B. Anthony dollars in the change machines at the stations but loading still went slowly with about half the riders fumbling for change. Why don;t they go to fare cards like NYC?
Most people do have monthly passes which get slid through the fare box. The SBA change machines are for those folks who ride infrequently. As the Riverside line runs mostly through well-to-do suburbs in Newton and Brookline,MA there is the occasional housewife, teenager, or non-regular commuter who requires change made on site rather than issue cards. That improvement is still to come.
Glad to have you back.
I saw card scanners attached to the turnstiles at Aquarium station, are those for the monthly passes? However I found a used one-week tourist passport at Lechmere (had a good map inside). But that was for flashing to the operator. The fareboxes on the Green line cars didn't have card scanners like in New York. Can you explain how the passes are used and what the scanners on the turnstiles are for.
the scanners on the turnstiles are for the monthly passes. i figure it would be easier to just switch to cards like in DC. As for the green line boxes, most do have scanners for the passes. It's the same box as the ones on the buses and i know they take the monthly passes. The monthly passes are a good deal because u pay one price and can use it for anything as many times as you want in that month. Subways, boats, commuter rails, anything.
I hope i helped you a little
Matt
The Boston monthly pass readers are much less sophisticated than the Metrocard system. Monthly passes run for the calendar month, and there is no declining balance option. I'm not particularly fond of the way it works.
This occurs more often than you think. Every time I'm on the Riverside line I see at least one or two people get on without change. There is a slot in the side of the farebox into which they shove the dollar(s), but no change is available; if you're in an $0.85 zone, you waste $0.15.
On the other hand, Boston fares are among the lowest in the country, a rare thing in this part of the country.
On the other hand, Boston fares are among the lowest in the country, a rare thing in this part of the country.
This is very true, but now the M.B.T.A. is $800 million in the hole, and is proposing to raise its base fare to $1 by 2001, and to $1.25 by 2006. Yes, the new fares will still be low...but the system, especially the green line, needs a major updating if it wants to survive in the 21st century....the M.B.T.A. is going to need the money;and the federal government can only subsidize so much. -Nick
The fare system also requires another fare every time you change modes - no free transfer from bus to subway or bus to bus (that sells the monthly pass)!
Transit authorities love that - it's free money. The MTA in Baltimore used to get free $ a lot when the fare was less than $1.00. Even though the base is now $1.35 with no transfers and a Day Pass is $3.00, there's still a little free money. Lots of folks who ride only twice a day (and don't have a Weekly/Monthly pass) still stick $3.00 in the farebox and get a Day Pass, even though their total cash charge would be $2.70. result: 30 cents free money, every day.
Today going to work on my next to last day,( Ill be leaving NY on Monday) we stopped at Rockaway. A New Lots bound train pulled into the station. I noticed on the cars that there was yellow stickers. These cars were from Pelham. I remember two cars #'s: 1908 and 1914. I also remember that these cars were originally at Livonia. Welcome back home boys!!!!!!!!!!
Those cars i mis cause they were some of the few in wich one could see the tunnel on the 6 train. Now what's the deal with 6 trains in the yard next to the pelham parkway??
Today the sbway made news.
1. People are pushing for the 2Av subway. They realized that the 4,5,6 lines are canned sardines.........
2. The 7 train got some type of histoic award from the White House. This award was for the recognition of the dierse neighborhoods and immigrant people it takes to work every day. It was labeled as a historic landmark.....
I can see it now... Redbirds declared historic landmark and cant be replaced. Later on Car collapses (from rust), passengers hurt and city sued by feds for detsroying landmark?
(Tongue in cheek post--just kidding!)
Its seems everytime something happens out of the ordianry like a historic declaration, fire derailment, etc. it makes the news why is that so
Because the very definition of news is that which is out of the ordinary! If it's ordinary, it's not "news". That's why the news has to be taken with a grain of salt, so that one doesn't become pessimistic because most or all the news is bad.
Hi John Bredin, Esq. I often don't watch the news because it is the "freak hour" on TV. Killings, murder, guns and other things come up every night. It keeps you attorney's in business defending these bums. Now there is a movie that came out today on the "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz. Bad exploitation.
"It keeps you attorney's in business defending these bums."
And putting them behind bars. Most of my good friends from law school are Assistant State's Attorneys.
"Now there is a movie that came out today on the 'Son of Sam' David Berkowitz. Bad exploitation."
I think so too, but then I've never been a big Spike Lee fan, ever since I had to watch "Do The Right Thing" for a freshman lit course in college. On the other hand, Berkowitz himself is unhappy about the movie, so it can't be all bad. (^: Especially since, as far as I've heard, he isn't making a ha'penny off of it. (^; You know, public figure and all that, so his likeness can be used w/o compensating him. And to be fair to ole Spikey, he says that the movie isn't really **about** the Son of Sam murders as about one neighborhood's (over)reaction to the killings.
If I had a choice, I would designate the R-32s as historic landmarks. Not that the Redbirds would be far behind on my list.
Now who in the white house is such a railfan? :)
--Mark
Especially since Amtrak doesn't rent roomettes by the hour:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today the subway made news.
1. People are pushing for the 2Av subway. They realized
that the 4,5,6 lines are canned sardines.........
2. The 7 train got some type of histoic award from the
White House. This award was for the recognition of the
diverse neighborhoods and immigrant people it takes to work every day. It was labeled as a historic landmark.....
What is a prime mover? How about a inverter.
A "prime mover" is the diesel engine in a diesel-electric locomotive that turns the generator or alternator to generate electricity (or, in the case of a diesel-hydraulic engine, that runs the hydraulic pumps). An inverter is part of the electrical control system of a diesel-electric locomotive; for a better and more detailed explanation I'll defer to one of our electrically-minded posters.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not all locos have inverters, only AC traction types do. An Inverter basicaly turns DC back to AC, which is much harder than turning AC to DC.
Turning AC to DC is done with a rectifier, which can be either mechanical, or electronic. Most nowadays are electronic. AC traction locos us a diesel engine that turns an AC alternator. This AC is then fed into a rectifer, which converts it to DC. The DC is fed into the controls, and from the controls, is fed into an inverter (aka chopper) and from there is fed to the traction motors. That's basically it. Normal home current is 120vAC at 60Hz, ie, it changes polarity 60 times a second. That's a really simplified explanation.
Basically, AC looks like the two lines below:
+-+-+-+-+-+-
-+-+-+-+-+-+
And DC looks like this:
++++++++++++
------------
-Hank (positively shocked :)
On a former post PCC Brakes Jeff H. mentioned that PCCs have
magnetic attraction track brakes. What are they and how do they work?
These are large electromagnets that dangle directly over the rail between the wheels of each truck. I was hoping to find specific details in my reference collection, but no luck, so I can't tell you exactly how they operate. The essence of it, however, is that the magnets are turned on during the braking process and slow the car through magnetic force. They are only on at certain speeds; I was hoping to be able to tell you what that range was but either I don't have the info or (more likely) I just can't find that info - and I was looking, among other places, in the PCC technical spec published back in the '30s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I added the words "magnetic attraction" to make the term clearer.
It is in general just referred to as a "track brake".
The principle of operation is thus: A large steel bar is suspended
between the wheels of the truck (one on each side) such that
it is directly over the head of the rail. The bar is normally
held a few inches above the rail by springs.
On this bar ("shoe") is wound a big coil of wire.
When current is passed
through the coil, the bar becomes a powerful electromagnet.
The rail, being made of steel, is attracted to the magnetic
field. This causes the track brake shoe to be pulled down
until it contacts the rail head. Once the two pieces of steel
are touching, there is a tremendous amount of attractive force
between them....thousands of pounds.
The shoe sliding along the rail head creates friction which
slows the car down. It's like putting your feet down on
a bicycle. The braking effort is much less affected by moisture,
oil or leaves on the rail than a conventional tread or drum
brake which acts on the wheels. The reason is that in the latter
case, the contact between the rail and wheel must remain one
in static friction. When the braking force exerted by the tread
of the wheel against the rail exceeds the static friction limit,
the wheel slides, and since the coefficient of sliding friction
is always lower than static, this means less effective brakes
(and flat spots!)
In addition, the effective contact area in wheel braking is very
small..only a few square inches where the wheel tread touches the
rail. In contrast, the track brake gives you the width of the rail
times the length of the track brake shoe...several square feet
of contact area.
The downside of track brakes is they are very rough on your track
and your trucks. Any little discontinuity in the track, such as
a rail joint, is pounded on with a lot of force. The shoe has
little ramps on either end to help "steer" it over the bumps,
but they only do so much. In severe cases, the track brakes can
initiate a derailment.
On the PCC, the track brakes are only used for emergency braking.
The operator's brake pedal has a 3" service range travel in which
only the dynamic brakes (and then the air or drum brakes when the
dynamics fade) are active. Further depression of the pedal
activates the tread brakes linearly from minimum to maximum when
the pedal is down to the floor. Unlike, e.g., SMEE cars, in
that emergency position all 3 forms of braking (dynamic, air/drum
and track) are in play. The track brakes are also activated as
an emergency brake when the deadman pedal is released.
Boston's Green Line Boeing LRV trolleys (by the way they're not called 'Type 6s') and Kinki Type-7s have track brakes.
On the Boeings, the track brake is activated by a toggle switch on the console. It is used mainly for roll-back protection; when moving the T-handle from any braking position to any power position, there is a few second lag between brake release and power application. So the operator holds the track brake switch until he/she feels the car take power. There is a high-pitched tone warning issued while the switch is engaged (and a tell-tale light comes on too).
On the Type-7s, this procedure is not necessary, since the car holds about 10lbs of air even after the operator comes off the foot brake. This air is released when the power pedal is depressed, simultaneously with the car taking power. However there is a toggle switch on the console to manually engage the track brake if required. In addition, if the foot brake is depressed to the floor, the track brake engages much like a PCC (and a high-pitched tone plus the tell-tale light are activated).
On each model, depressing the mushroom button (also known as the Big Red Button or Panic Button) on the console throws the car into emergency and deploys the track brake. I've been on cars where this has happened, and the car stops damn fast! People go flying.
I assume the Type-8s operate similarly to the Type-7s, but I haven't been on them enough to know for sure. I do know that the Type-8s are all electric (no air).
The filler/contact bar on the track brake is usually made from a non ferous metal such a bronze, that is softer than the rail. The idea is to wear the brake insert and reduce rail wear. Also if the contact bar was magnetic itself it would make for a very rough stop.
As said above the track brake is for emergencies and for holding the car on a steep grade.
when did the TA start requiring uniforms? Looking at the old pics especially in the 60's many if not all of the motormen came to work in what ever they wanted to wear
I remember in the 1964-1967 years, there was a motorman on the Third Avenue "EL" in the Bronx who wore a three-piece suit!!
I would imagine that conductors have worn uniforms right from the start. At one time, they were in full view of the riding public at all times. It's different nowadays, with door controls being in the cab.
The First time in many years that Motormen began to wear uniforms was in 1987. That was a pinstriped out fit. But it didn't work well, it got dirty too easy. Then they began to wear the same uniform as conductors, except without the jacket or hat.
Last year the motormen got new uniforms similar to conductors again except the shirt is pinstriped.
Motormen about 10 years ago. That is because, although usually unseen by the public, a small minority came to work looking like homeless bums. In fact, one guy had a BIE (brakes in emergency) on the Brighton line, went to the roadbed to check the train, and the cops called for power off because of some derelect on the tracks!
I have talked to a moterman recently on the 5 Train Northbound to 241st in the Bronx and asked him why they don't run an express from 241 to E 180 st peak direction for rush hour. He said that they have a train the call the SUPER that occasionally runs this service, has anyone ever road it? Or seen this. I have ridden this train several times and have yet to see this.. Anyone know the scoop on that?
It would be feasible, the 2 and 5 both travel to E 241st.
Larcen
I do not know of any Scheduled Express service from E 180 to E 241. I have operated on the Super 4 Picks ago. Basicly you are called a No.5 Super if you go Express from E 180 TO 3 Ave and an Express in manhattan and Brooklyn. So if your go Express in the Bronx,Manhattan and Brooklyn you are considered a Super. So a Thru Express from 238 or Dyre to Flatbush,Utica, or New Lots are Super Express. If you are a Thru Express starting out of Bowling Green you are not a super. Also there in NO 5 service at E 241 Street. In the AM Rush Hour all No.5 train go in service at E 238 Street FROM 239 ST. Yard. During PM Rush Hour No.5 Trains make there last stop 238 Street and go right in 239 Street Yard. Unless your No.5 Train is needed for southbound No.2 service. Then the train goes into E 241 Street and the crew helps with sign changes. Also if a train does run Express from E 180 St to E 238 ST it is a reroute or Schedule Adjustment. But a real fun run for train crews are the runs you get out of E 180 St during the PM Rush Hour. Where you put in the train from E 180 Yard and run light to Bowling Green. It funny at the Express stops where people would get off the No.6 Train think you where going to stop. Then when they see you not in service they try to run back on the No.6 Train but the door would be close before they could turn to run back. Then when the train gets to Bowling Green you go in service Northbound going to E 238 Street.
ok I have done that and it is also quite annoying. But Before There was a 5 service to 241 st.Check the old maps
At one time there was a real super Express from E 180 to E 241 but rumer has it that a that TA and Liberty make a deal which killed the service. I do not no how true this is. At least thats what a old time Motor Instructor on the No.5 line told me. He is now retired.
Maybe if there are any Motorman who worked the No.5 Line before 1994 you may know who I am talking about.
Before they re-routed the No. 5 to Dyre Ave. around 1965, all No. 5 trains ran up the White Plains Rd. Branch and all No. 2 trains ran to E. 180 or Dyre. In those days, the No. 5 Thru Express trains used the express track as far north as Gun Hill Rd. The regular No. 5 and No. 2 trains made all stops in The Bronx.
When the change was made to send the No. 2 trains to White Plains Rd and No. 5 trains to Dyre Ave., the only No. 5 service on White Plains Rd branch north of E. 180 was the rush-hour Thru express trains. The Thru express trains at that time started make all stops north of E. 180 to avoid inconveniencing the patrons from the local stops between E. 180 and Gun Hill Rd. who used the Lexington Ave. service. Note that at that time, the No. 5 trains to Dyre Ave. made all stops in the Bronx - running the No. 5 Dyre trains express rush hours didn't start until sometime in the '70s.
-- Ed Sachs
Well looking at the track maps, it is difficult to run a smooth service for RUSH HR passengers up at E 241st with an express. At least at Gun Hill Rd, they could start the 5 running express, I mean you have the 5 from Dyre Ave and the 2 both running local, that can really clogg things up at E 180.
Larcen
Not unless they do a 5 local. @ runs both as well as 5 sometimes. Not now, but before they did
I used to ride the 5 Thru Express in the 1960's. If everything went well you could save 15 minutes over the local since you didn't have to stop at every station in the South Bronx. UNfortunately everything went well only about 50% of the time. IN the morning I would change from the Dyre Avenue local to the Thru Express at 180th St. This was a quick transfer since a thru express would be waiting for the local. Service was fast until 149th Street when the train had to get on to the Lex along with the Woodlawn #4 service. In the PM the service was fast until 180th street. There one could wait 10 to 15 minutes for the Dyre Avenue local. However in the summer it was still more comfortable to wait on the 180th Street el platform than to ride in a hot, crowded un-air conditioned car.
Yes but didn't they run to 241 street?? Check the 89, 95 maps.!:):)
help me with that please.... do they make them quit or change routes???
What do you mean? Does 1994 mean the year or does 1994 mean something else?
Until 1965, the #5 Thru Express ran express between 149th St.-3rd Ave. and Gun Hill Rd./White Plains Rd., making one stop at E. 180th St. Thru Expresses alternated with regular (local-in-the-Bronx) expresses during rush hours, both going to 241st St.
In 1965, the TA decided to swap the northern terminals of the #2 and #5 trains, with the non-Thru Express 5's now going to Dyre Ave. Original plans called for the Thru Expresses to continue running express to Gun Hill, then local to 241st St. But the people living around Pelham Parkway and Allerton Ave. complained loudly that they would now have no single-seat access to Lexington Ave. service, so the plans were revised to have Thru Expresses run local north of 180th St., and that is how they have run ever since.
BTW, the term "Thru Express" seems to date from the days of the Third Ave. El, when some rush-hour expresses would run "thru" to 241st St. instead of terminating at Gun Hill Rd. like most Third Ave. trains. When the Third Ave. El. in Manhattan was torn down in 1955, the "Thru Expresses" moved to Lexington Ave., but the name was retained, as was (until 1965) the service pattern of running express to Gun Hill Rd., then local to 241st St.
5 trains used to go up to 241st streert. Now they do exp. from 180 st to the downtown trun then do express from 125 st.
Yeah there was #5 service to 241 Street but it was a hassle. The #5 would come out of 239 Street Yard, dumb the train at 238 Street (middle track), then the driver would walk all 10 cars to the front, wait for a slot to open then bring the train to into 241 Street only to have it run southbound again. This is in addition to the #2's that do this in the A.M. It was a pain in the ass, now all they do is come out of the yard and pickup at 238 Street.
This is why the R-110A never started out at 241 Street in the A.M. or the P.M when it first started running the single round trip at 4:33 P.M out of 238 Street. (Actually it started at 241 Street for a short period of time in the A.M.)
i've been on it when they do local #5
Way back when, wasn't the rush hour #5 run to 241st street the "thru express?" I remember when I was young, seeing signs on the Lexington Line that said "Lexington Ave Thru Express." I was always under the impression that the 5 ran 241st-Utica/Flatbush during rush hours as the thru express, and from Dyre Ave to Bowling Green/Atlantic Ave, etc. other times.
Wrong and right Jeremy. Before ( 60's) they used to do the reun to utica. But now they don't and the thru express is the message i posted bout the super express. The thru express is all bronx and manhattan]
John
Folks,
Believe it or not I've lived in Philly for 41 years and I'm going to be going to NY City for the first time in my life. I'm going to be taking NJ transit to Penn Station. Is there a subway route that will take me directly to Yankee stadim from Penn Station?
You could take the A to 145 Street and then take the D (during pm rush, take B) to 161 Street-Yankee Stadium. The other option is to walk from Penn Station to 6th Avenue and take the D from there.
No.
Take the "A" or "C" from Penn Station to 59th St./Columbus Circle and transfer there for the "D". There's other ways but that's probably the easiest.
-Dave
And enjoy the non-stop run from Columbus Circle to 125th st. If the
"E" comes first at Penn Station, take that to Seventh Avenue for the
Uptown "D".
I'd stay on the A to 145th St. especially if a train of R-38s comes first. They have an electronic sign directly above the storm door and are faster overall.
From 34th street-Penn Station, take the Uptown #2 to 149th street Grand Concourse, transfer at 149th to the #4. Be sure you follow the signs that says #4 to Woodlawn. If you see the stadium from the 4 train, your going in the right direction.
The easiest way from Penn Station to Yankee Stadium is to: Exit Penn Station at 7th Avenue. Walk east one block. Enter the subway at 6th Avenue and take the D north to 161 Street.
Now that really is easy!!!
A one seat ride on the D from 6th Av 34th ST would be my choice!
On the nycsubway home page there is a past history of fan trips going back into the 1970's. They are fascinating in that the cars look new and the old number markings are in place----a bit of old nostalgia for
subway fanatics. Do those trips still exist and if they do, where and when. Please let me know. I have asked others but I'm still not certain whether they exist or not. They'd be a blast to ride on.
The Transit Museum and the Electric Railroader's Association New York Division coordinate fan trips several times a year. (This year there will probably only be one, the Low-V's in September/October.) They have a train of Bmt D-Types (3 units) which is in need of some work, a train of Low-V's (4 cars), and some R1/9 type cars are hanging around and maybe will see a trip some day.
When I hear of fan trips being run I'll post them on the Upcoming Events calendar.
-dave
Actually, ERA, not the New York Division, sponsored some of the subway fantrips you might be thinking of, but ERA hasn't done one since the R-30 trip in 1993. The Transit Museum has done several trips since, both on its own and with others (March of Dimes comes to mind). New York Division sponsored a very successful trip on Metro-North about a year ago, and we're going to run one on the LIRR on Saturday, September 26 using the soon-to-be-retired diesel equipment. For an application, e-mail era@juno.com; if you're a NYD member or subscriber, you'll get an application with the July mailing, which went out on the evening of June 30.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
[The Transit Museum and the Electric Railroader's Association New York Division coordinate fan trips several times a year. (This year there will probably only be one, the Low-V's in September/October.) They have a train of Bmt D-Types (3 units) which is in need of some work, a train of Low-V's (4 cars), and some R1/9 type cars are hanging around and maybe will see a trip some day.]
Sorry to keep doing this, but within the car roster (BMT -B- within photos 1-15) there is slide BMT-b/bmtb-bj.jpg which shows a train of standards approaching BWAY-ENY. There is a track in the picture which
runs below and to the left, and one which juts out from the cab of the lead car. Do these lead to the yard and the flyover (not neceassarily in that order)----and what are the abandoned trackways about---was that the one-time link to the Fulton-El?
Amtrak has issued press release about the arrival of the prototype Acela high speed train in Washington DC.
Nice article with lots of meat in it, thanks for the link Todd.
Too bad the trains won't due 165 MPH after the test :-(
Hello,
Channel 7 was reporting that something special was going to occur to the #7 line, however they never aired the report due to the breaking story of the subway fire yesterday. Does anyone know what this special thing is??
- Jose
It's been designated a historical landmark because of it's history and the route it follows, winding through several immigrant neighborhoods.
Does this mean it cannot be torn down? If it does, can they extend such protection to all the remaining el strctures in the city?
This means it's under US Federal protection right?
Don't know, the blurb I caught said the President made some historical sites year 2000 trails. Includes portions of the Mississippi river and the "underground railroad" from the civil war.
The 7 cars suck.. they are the old 6 redbird's. Seoncd the line is old and needs extensive repairs and if it's torn down, many people will suffer from it caus ethey use it like you cannot believe
The redbirds that suck on the 7 are originally the 1964 Worlds Fair cars, and while they MAY have at one time served on the 6 (as several cars currently do) they are the cars that replaced the World's Fair Lo-Vs on the Flushing line.
The line was recently fully rehabed (it took nearly 10 years) and some stations are still undergoing rehab (Woodside and Main St come to mind immediately). And the era of removing transit lines in NYC is long over, thank goodness.
-Hank
Actually, the WF R-36s bumped the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s to the mainlines. Don't know for sure if the World's Fair Lo-Vs had already been transferred to the mainlines by that time; it's quite possible they had been.
If the Flushing line were to be dismantled, a lot of Mets fans (myself included) would have to find another means of getting to Shea Stadium.
You mean there is such a think as a Mets fan (or a Yankees fan, for that matter)? :-)
Sorry, this Phillies/Braves phan just couldn't resist!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course there is such a thing as a Mets and Yanks "fan" THIS YEAR - they are winning! If things turn around for them, then we'll see what's up :)
Go Phils!
That's almost as bad as Bill Terry's famous 1934 question, "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" Ouch!
As a loyal UConn alum, I can still say, until next spring, with all due respect, "We are the champions!"
It have been given some type of historic award by the White House
see my post on subway making news..........
As one who has taken a keen interest in the changing system of assigning letters and numbers to trains, I came across something of a
puzzle when looking over the Illustrated Subway Roster. There is an
R-11 train numbered 8012 @ Kings Highway dated January 24, 1970. The oddity about it is that it not listed as a fan trip, but neverthless carried the #4 insignia instead of letter"N", which the Sea Beach has carried, I'm told, since 1967. Is there anyone out there who can ex-
plain why this is so? Is it really a fan trip? I find this picture fascinating because the Sea Beach was always my favorite train, and I still remember it from my childhood as the #4 train. In fact, my password to get logged into my computer is 4seabeach. Someone out there give my some info on this picture if you can.
I think the R-11 was retired before 1970, and that indeed what you saw must have been a fantrip. The R-11 was equipped with BMT numbers on it's route indicator.
But that's just an educated guess, I don't know for sure.
BTW, why were only 10 R-11's ordered and not more? They seemed to be very hi-tech for 1948.
The R-11 was an experimental train (the "Million Dollar Train"), one which gave hope that, coming on the heels of the R-10, the City would pick up the ball of the innovative BMT instead of the dull conservativism of the IRT.
Wasn't to be...
The R-11s were prototypes for the 2nd Ave. line. A 400-car order was in the works, but was never placed.
Those cars did keep their BMT number signs after number markings were dropped. It's quite possible they may been briefly assigned to the N line in 1970, in which case they would have sported #4 signs. They appeared on the B line in the fall of 1968, carrying #3 signs.
In January of 1970 2 R-11's in company with R-27/30's and/or R-32's were in use on both the B and the N so the #4 sign would have been used.
Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33: I have gotten a number of answers to that question. Thanks for your help. You guys are great and I'm elated that there are subway fanatics like me out there. I'm looking forward to riding the rails when I come to New York next month. If anyone out three sees some old warhorse looking out the train's front end window, it will probably be me. Maybe I'll see a few of you guys on one of the trains.
Fred aka Mr Sea Beach
Your recollection included a specific date which helped to verify the info that I had. One of the interesting things about the Sea Beach Line is that it is one of the few lines still in existence that has been operated by steam trains,trolley cars and heavy rapid transit. When do you plan on being in NY?
Larry,RedbirdR33
< one of the few lines still in existence that has been operated by steam trains,trolley cars and heavy rapid transit >
and buses.
No cable cars, AFAIK.
RedbirdR33: I fly in New York on August 6, and will stay in the city until I fly out August 19. I will spend three days in between in Cooperstown. I'm also a baseball nut, and though I live in Calfiornia I am a rabid Mets fan. I like title Mr. Sea Beach, I really do. A few
of you are calling me that now. I take it as a compliment. I have to say, however, that I'm amazed at how some of you have such a large store on info. I'm still a minor leaguer in that field, but I'm learning an awful lot very fast. I look forward to reading some more
blurbs from you and those other whizzes out there.
You realize, of course, that Nolan Ryan, whom the Mets never should have traded, IMHO, is slated to be inducted this year. I still kick myself for giving away his rookie card back in 1973. Oh well, at least I kept my 1968 Tom Seaver card.
Anyway, have you checked out Joe Korman's website yet? He scanned some old BMT roller curtains from which you can download specific signs. There's a Triplex curtain with plain old numerals, an R-11/R-16 number curtain which has a 4/Sea Beach sign, among others, and an original R-27 curtain with N/Broadway-Sea Beach.
How do I download Joe Korman's Website? Let me know Steve. If you think you goofed, let me tell you what happened to me in 1952. I always collected Bowman's Cards. They came out in 1948 and they were the best and most popular. In '52 Topps of Brooklyn came out with cards and one day I went in to the local candy store and tried to get Bowman's but they were out. Sam, the store owner, got me to try Topp's, and I bought three packs of six for $.15. "Damn", I said, not Brooklyn Dodgers, not one, but a bunch of Yankees who I hated. What was worse were Mickey Mantle Cards, one in each package. Do you know what I did? I ripped up three 1952 Topps Mantle cards and threw them in the trash can. I'll bet you don't feel too bad right about now.
The JoeKorNer
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_Mouse: Thanks! Now I have to get some expert to show me how to download it properly and I'm in business.
The way it works, you scroll down through the rollsign until you come to the specific sign you want to save, in your case 4/Sea Beach, then save it as a bitmap to Windows on your hard drive. That's what I've done, anyway. Then you can call it up as your wallpaper.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Back in 1973, none of us had any idea that Nolan Ryan would go on to have the career he did. In his defense, he wasn't happy in New York and wanted out. When the Mets traded him, Gil Hodges remarked that Ryan would be the righthander he'd miss the least.
BTW, Hodges wore #14, as you no doubt remember. 1 and 4, Brighton/Sea Beach; never mind the Broadway-Brooklyn local.
I had some time to kill before going to Yankee game yesterday so in
my ongoing quest to ride the entire NYC subway system I got the
following:
Left Franklin St on 1-9 at 17:15. Took 1 to 14th, changed to 2 to
96th. Got back on 1. It wasn't cabbed-across so I able to watch out
front all the way to 242nd St. Rode back to 168th, up the elevator to
A-C. The elevator is still signed A-B even though they swapped ter-
minals last year! Took A to 207th St. Got R-38 so was able to look
out front. Air conditioning was out so it was a bit hot. We were held
at Dyckman St. for 10 minutes, probably had something to do with
problem at Broadway-East New York.
Rode back to 145th, then transferred to D and rode up to Yankee
Stadium. Arrived at 19:15.
Now I have all the Bronx lines except 2 from 180th to 241st. Bad
planning since I have been to Dyre on the 5...
Aaron's post about riding the entire NYC Subway system got me thinking: Although I have ridden the subways since the mid 1950's, and have been a subway "Fan" for over 40 years, there are still some lines that I have never travelled on: IND Concourse and IRT Jerome north of Yankee Stadium; IRT from Utica to New Lots; the entire IRT Dyre Ave. line and the IRT White Plains Rd. line from Gun Hill Rd. to 241st St. How many of you fellow Subtalkers have ridden the entire system?
(On the other hand, I did ride the Culver Shuttle, The 3rd Ave. line in the Bronx, The Jamaica El from 121st St. to 168th St. and the Myrtle Ave. line from Broadway/Myrtle to Bridge/Jay Sts.)
I have never ridden the #4 past Yankee Stadium, the Dyre Ave line, the R line to 95th Street, the #3 from Utica to New Lots and finally, I never took the A to Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park, (only to Lefferts). I'm so ashamed.
I have ridden every line - the entire length. I have also worked at least one booth on every line except the Rockaway park Shuttle, either working the booth or a lunch relief at the booth.
I have also ridden every center track currently in the system and the J to L connection.
(And I did that BEFORE working for Transit. The booths came after I started working for Transit.)
I also rode the J to L connection in the early 1960's. At that time there was a Broadway/Brooklyn local service that ran from the stub end track at Canal/Nassau to Atlantic Ave. on what is now the L
I once accidentally rode that flyover, about 5 years ago. Some sort of weekend trackwork caused the L train to operate as a shuttle from Canarsie to Eastern Pkwy. I was transfering from an A to get a J, and when i saw a train out the window as i got off the escalator I ran top speed to try to get what i thought was a J train before it left. I just managed to get on before the doors closed. I never once checked the route sign. I'm sitting there, thanking god i didn't have to wait for the next train when I noticed something funny: I was at Atlantic Ave, not Alabama Ave. Needless to say i was pissed and a little embarassed, and I got off to wait for the next shuttle back to E.P.
G, L, Q ( the yellow service), but why did the yellow q go orange with the f train
Because the Broadway tracks were closed in 1988, so the Q was moved over to 6th Ave.
I'm more ashamed. I haven't been on so many parts I can write a whole list:
Manhattan:
8 Avenue Station on the L (I've ridden the line so many times from Canarsie to 6th, but never to 8th, pathetic).
155 on the B&D
A above 191-Overlook Terrace
Bronx:
Have ridden nothing except for the 1/9 from Manhattan to 242.
Queens:
Nothing but the E and Q lines and the J/Z at both Archer stations.
Brooklyn:
3 east/south of Sutter
J/Z east/north of Eastern Parkway
G north of whatever station the connection with the L is.
M east/north of Myrtle
R from 59 to 95.
A/C east/south of Broadway-ENY.
Now that I have bared my proverbial soul to the world and told all that I haven't been to so many parts of the subway. Having given it much thought (if you consider a few seconds much thought), I have decided to start visiting the missing parts. I have a few ideas, and I need to ask questions:
I hate to backtrack, so I'll want some alternate routes, OK:
What is the area in Far Rockaway like between the subway and the LIRR? or, for more fun, is there a bus between LIRR Long Beach and the Mott Avenue station. Does it have MC transfers? Does it take the MC Fun Pass?
Since I have to visit all but one Bronx subway line (the 1/9), I want to know if there are any direct connecting busses, MNR trains or walking that I could use to link the terminals.
That's it.
Walking between the two Far Rockaway terminals in broad daylight should be safe enough.
But to give you an idea of the area, LIRR personnel hate to take jobs out of Far Rockaway that start early. There are no inbound trains for the earliest jobs, so you have to drive and park in the area.
You want to use your oldest, crappiest car, because you're never sure what will still be there at the end of your run.
There is a bus from the LIRR Long Beach station to the Mott Ave. subway station. It's the Long Island Bus N33 line and it runs (generally) half-hourly on weekdays and hourly on weekends. It's a nice ride over the Atlantic Beach Bridge and takes about 35-40 minutes You can use your Metrocard and you'll get a free transfer to the subway -- your unlimited ride Metrocard is also OK on Long Island Bus.
In terms of easy transfers between the Bronx lines, it's a short walk between the D and the 4 most of the way. I've done the walk between the two Fordham Road stops during daylight and didn't have any concerns about my safety.
i did but have not been on the subway since 1970's. i should take a new look one of theses days.
In that case, you haven't been on the J/Z line from 121st St., or the E from Union Tpke., to Jamaica Center! Or the S from 57th/7th to Queensbridge.
Oops, I missed that one. I haven't been on the Queensbridge line either!
Honestly, I think we should organize something. Ride some subways, for the sake of riding subqways. Together, for fun as well as safety purposes. Not always safe to carry around expensive camera equipment in certain areas.
How about a monthly subway line tour?
I have been on each and every line, including those closed: Myrtle, 3rd Avenue, Culver Shuttle. The only stretches of track I have never been on are: the IND express from 7th Avenue to Church Avenue (did Jay St-7 Ave back in 1971), the flyover/connection between the "J" and "L" at Broadway Junction, the express tracks between 180th Street and 3rd Ave-149th St and the Hammels' Wye in the Rockaways. I rode the Pelham Express for the first time earlier this year.
Wayne
For all of you who have never ridden on the Dyre Ave. line: What are you waiting for? It is a beautiful part of history. Get up to The Bronx NOW!
I plan on doing just that this fall as part of my "Ride the Redbirds" theme. I might as well include a ride to 241st St. on the 2 and kill two (not Red) birds with one stone. It so happens that, except for taking 1 or 9 trains to South Ferry, I have never ridden on any IRT line to its terminus. The 42nd St. shuttle doesn't count.
I never did get to take the Culver shuttle, but did go out to 168th St. on the Jamaica line a few times. I also managed to experience an express run on a rerouted F all the way out to Church Ave a few years back.
I have yet to take the IRT to both the Lenox Ave terminal and New Lots terminal. Don't know when I'll get the chance. I've been through all the other stations in the sytem.
I had ridden almost all the lines expect Jamaica El from 121st to 168st and Culver line shuttle because they torn down before 80s and i start riding the subway when i was 13.
I'll make a shameful confession. I've never ridden the IRT in Brooklyn past Atlantic Avenue, the F in Queens, the A to Lefferts, the E/J/Z to Parsons-Archer (always got off at Sutphin), and - how's this for a biggie? - any trains at all in the Bronx except for the 1. Yep, I barely merit the term "railfan" (sob)!
Also, I've never ridden the SIRT south of Great Kills.
Don't feel bad. I never rode the SIRT until this past March. And I paid $15 to do it :) (NY Transit Museum tour).
--Mark
OK you can start by taking a tour of the stations you haven't been to in the "Line-by-line" section of NYC Subway Resources. Lots of nice pictures to look at.
Wayne
WHEW! Makes me feel real good as a non-resident/native,IVE actually been on some of those... my exclusions are:
1. Brooklyn IRT past Atlantic..
2. The R past 59th st-4th ave
3 The 6 past 125 st...
4 The 2 past Burke ave..(used to get off there for the late Burke soda fountain RIP
5. The L between 3rd ave (the late Palladium) and Bway Jct...
6. The A past 185th...
7. The Flushing past Willets Point..(never been to Main St..strange..)
8. The E connector to Archer or the IND Queens past Forest Hills...
Over all..not bad for a non-native.....
There are no lines currently in revenue service that I haven't ridden from one extreme to another - and several sections of trackage that aren't currently in revenue service either. I'd like to ride the remaining formerly-revenue trackage that I haven't yet, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only the Franklin Shuttle (although I only came to the city last year so any former lines I've never been on). I rode everything else in the past 6 months. I'll ride the shuttle when it opens back up.
Mike
I have never ridden what is now the R south of Bay Ridge Avenue.
Nor have I ever ridden the F east of Sutphin Blvd.
Other than that, at one time or another, I have hit the rest of the system.
A/C North of 190th Street, between Rockaway Blvd and Lefferts, between Broad Channel and Rockaway Park.
Concourse Line between BPB and 205th Street.
#4 north of 125th.
#2/5 (White Plains Road line) north of Pelham Parkway
Lenox Av. between 135th and 148th
M train between Wyckoff and Metropolitan.
L train between Eastern Parkway and Canarsie.
Line between Franklin and Flatbush.
Line between Utica and New Lots.
Other than that, I pretty much have it covered!
I'm proud to say I've been everywhere a train rider can go, includng some parts that no longer exist (Jamaica Ave. el to 168th and the Culver shuttle, once)
The Jamaica El between 121st and 168th, and the 3rd Ave EL in the Bronx, are the only "modern" segments that I regret never getting an opportunity to ride. While I was alive when the Myrtle Ave EL stopped running, I was too young to ride it by myself, and my parents (not being railfans) had no desire to take their 7 year old son to a part of Brooklyn they weren't familiar with.
I did ride the Culver Shuttle and the K train .....
--Mark
I've covered the length of every line in the system. By "line" I don't mean a lettered or numbered route, but rather every section of right-of-way that is in revenue service (not necessarily every individual track). I did this in a 30-hour marathon ride back in 1972. That included the Third Ave. El in Bronx, but not the Marcy Ave. el, which was already gone and which I never rode. It also included the "KK" connection between Essex St. and Broadway-Lafayette and "Hammel's Wye" between the Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway lines (on the late night "round robin" that ran at the time).
The one connection I didn't get to ride then was the northbound half of the South Ferry "inner loop". The Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle operated only on the southbound half, "wrong railing" back to Bowling Green. I finally got to ride the connection from South Ferry to the northbound track at Bowling Green during a reroute earlier this year. Although the train used the "outer loop" at South Ferry itself, it switched to the inner loop track before the two tracks diverged, so as I see it I did ride the missing section of right-of-way.
> That included the Third Ave. El in Bronx, but not the Marcy Ave. el, > which was already gone and which I never rode.
Er, that should read "but not the Myrtle Ave. el, which was already gone and which I never rode." Wrong Eastern-Division "M" Avenue.
And yes, I've been on the E and J extensions to Jamaica Center and the 63rd St. tunnel to Queensbridge (and its connections to both the 6th Ave. IND and the BMT at 7th Ave.) since.
Before I moved from New York in 1967, I had ridden every line that existed at that time except the Rockaway Park branch and the Lenox branch to 145 St. (148 St. didn't open until 1968). Trips back to NY in the lates 60s let me add the Rockaway Park, and Lenox lines (all the way to 148 St.), as well as the Chrystie St. connector and the 6th Ave branch to 57 St.
Some no longer existing trackage I've been on includes the Fulton St. El from Eastern Pkway to where the A train joins the El structure now at the Brooklyn-Queens border, the Myrtle Ave. El to Bridge-Jay, the 3rd Ave. El in the Bronx, and the tracks connecting the Culver (F) platform at Stillwell Ave. to the Brighton line via the lower level at W. 8th St.
On later trips to NY, I've been to Jamaica Center (out via the 'E' and back on the 'J', but I still haven't ridden the 63 St. line to Queens (I don't get to NYC very often any more).
-- Ed Sachs
Since I started railfanning solo at the end of 1956, I've been on every piece of existing line and probably every service and connection at least once.
But I'm curious as to what people missed, i.e., what piece of line or trackage or equipment could you have been on but never rode for one reason or another, and now its gone? Forever.
Whenever I got a good report card in grade school, my mom took me for a trolley ride. By the time this started, we were down to the last three in Brooklyn--Church Avenue, Coney Island Avenue and McDonald Avenue. Plus I also have decent memories of Flatbush Ave.
Between the good report cards and regular riding, I've got good solid memories in the old memory bank of W5 Depot, Bristol Street when there were still tracks going into Canarsie Depot, the 39th Street ferry terminal on a stormy day, riding around Grand Army Plaza on PROW (trolley AND bus) and much more.
But I never wanted to go north on McDonald Avenue from Church, it might have taken too much of my mother's patience to do that AND still do my favorite ride to Coney Island. So now I have no memory of 9th Avenue Depot, the ride next to Greenwood Cemetery or anything else on that line segment.
What regrets do you guys have?
The ferries from Manhattan to Hoboken and Jersey City.
The Jersey Central to Jersey City.
The H&M to Hudson Terminal (I may have ridden it, but I don't remember for sure).
Those portions of the Chicago elevated torn down before 1978.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not having the opportunity to ride on a train from Bridge-Jay St across the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row.
I missed the Myrtle Avenue el between Bridge St. and Broadway, although I had been riding by myself for about a year at that point. I can't remember why I didn't get around to it.
I also missed the Watertown line in Boston, although I was visiting there in 1968. My uncle wasn't into just riding around, so I didn't get to any of the surface lines that year. However, I did ride the Orange Line el through Charlestown.
But then we can look forward too. The Hudson-Bergen LRT gets closer to completion every week.
< But then we can look forward too. The Hudson-Bergen LRT gets closer to completion every week >
Quite so. I hate to sound like an older fogey than I am, but I'm still fascinated by the idea of new light rail lines, of expanding electric rail service and such.
Growing up in the '50s was dismal for a railfan. We used to argue which would be the last trolley line in the U.S. Most of us said one of the Pittsbugh lines--until 1958, I think was the year, Pittsburgh had 51 lines. Second choice was one of the Philadelphia subway-surface lines.
Unthinkable now, but even the SF Cable Cars were being seriously considered for abandonment.
Luckily, San Francisco's cable cars are now an historic landmark.
I never had a chance to ride on the Myrtle Ave. and 3rd Ave. els.
There are still several subway lines I've never been on, mostly in the Bronx, although I'm seriously considering taking a 5 train of Redbirds to Dyre Ave. this fall. The theme of my visit will be "Ride the Redbirds". In fact, my only foray into the Bronx on the IRT was on August 9, 1967 to the Bronx Zoo.
Equipment-wise, I never got to ride on any prewar IRT equipment of any kind, although in all fairness only the World's Fair and some Steinway Lo'Vs were still around by the time we moved to Jersey. And, as most regular Subtalkers know by now, I missed the last revenue runs by the Triplexes by one day. We were in the city on July 21 and 22, 1965 and rode on nothing except BMT Southern Division trains both days, but did not see any Triplex trains. They rode off to the slaughterhouse on July 23, (much too soon, in the opinion of many) the day we left for home. Having heard so many good things about them, how smooth, quiet, durable, and reliable they were, I really regret not having had a chance to ride them.
I also never got to ride on the 4000-series cars in Chicago, but vivdly remember seeing them on the Evanston Express.
Speaking of the Triplexes, I dug out my video of Class of '44 this past weekend, and reviewed the subway sequence. It's hard to tell if all three Triplexes were used. Numbers 6012 and 6095 are plainly visible, with 6095 being the last unit. The funny part is the fact that the train is empty during the run-by for the cameras. I would have to guess the station which the train pulls into is Sheepshead Bay, but I could be wrong.
BMT MS before their 1961 retirement/replacement by the R27/30s. It is a crying shame they didn't save at least ONE of them.
Wayne
My regrets: being out of the city and not having ridden the Culver Shuttle and Myrtle El to Jay Street Brooklyn before they passed into Old New York History. (I was out of the city from June 1966 till April 1994)
I really wish I could have operated R-46's as delivered. With Rockwell trucks and cab signalling and regulated speed. Take 'em out to the Rockaways, do 70 MPH, like they were meant to do!
Also I'd have loved to ride the old BMT El's. Lexington Av or Myrtle, with gate cars.
In Chicago I wish I could have operated the 4000's. But than again I was 13 years old when they retired.
I regret not operating the 4000's. But than again I was 13 years old when they retired.
I was 16 when the last ones were retired. I could always tell when a 4000-series train went by without even seeing it, because it sounded distinctly different from a train of 6000-series cars.
It's safe to say the multis could outrun every other piece of equipment on subway property, even (shudder) the R-10s and slant R-40s. I can only imagine a train of multis on the CPW express dash. Hold on to your seats!
Neglecting to ride the Jsmaica EL when I lived in NYC 66-70.
Obeying my Aunt/Grandfather and thus not riding the Stockyards or Kenwood L lines in Chgo.
Polo grounds shuttle with Hi-V's; 3rd ave. el - I was a couple of weeks from being five years old in May '55 when it came down. I do have other memories from those days as a small child so, if only my Dad had thought to take me on it. Rockaway Ave. to Lefferts on the Fulton St. el - if my Dad had known Brooklyn I would have gotten to ride "C" types, and of course to be eight years old in 1958 and not to have been taken on the the last gate cars on the Myrtle Ave. "el" for the same reason - the regrets...
And of course, if I didn't mind being as old as some of the very senior E.R.A. members, I could have ridden the IND out to the '39 Worlds Fair.
I've covered almost all of the system - a small amount of it before the Chrystie Street transition and virtually all of it after. SO, I remember taking the D to Coney island via Culver Line and the Culver shuttle, etc..
However, there is are two sections of line I haven't been on at all -
* the New Lots Line between Utica & New Lots.
* E/J/Z extensions from original lines to new Jamaica Center Terminal.
Other lines I'd like to have covered but never did -
* the abandoned SIRT lines
* Myrtle Ave El between B'way and Jay (I've been on B'way to Metro)
Center or Express track I'd like to have covered but never did:
* Jerome Ave
* Pelham between E. 177 & Parkchester
* Culver - all express sections
* West End - all express sections south and east of 4th ave
* Broadway line - north of 96th street
* Astoria (31 Street) from Queensborough Plz to Astoria)
You mean between E.177 and Pelham Bay Park
I regret not riding the 3rd Ave El. before it was torn down in 1973. I was only 7 years old when this occured. I lived approximately five blocks from the 3rd Avenue but my mother had no use for it. She would go straight to the Concorse line.
The funny thing about not ever riding on the el is that I have always rode "under" the el. My mother was always going to 149 St-3 Av but she would always take the bus (Bx2 or Bx41). Every once in a while, after shopping at "the Hub," my mother would stop at her friend's house on 3rd Ave and 169th St. But she just would not take the el, instead she would take the bus (Bx29-today known as the Bx15) which ran under the 3rd Ave. El. I also had an aunt who lived in the Baychester section of the Bronx. We would take the Bx41 to E. 233rd St. and transfer the the Bx9 (known as the Bx31 today). The Bx41 ran under the 3rd Ave El from just north of Fordham Rd. all the way to Gun Hill Road. So, eventhough I have never been on any platform of the 3rd Ave. save for Gun Hill Road, I have travelled under the rails of the 3rd Ave. on many an occasion.
I also miss riding on all of the Manhattan Elevated lines, as well as R1-9s when they were running on the "A" and "D" trains.
You must have a long memory if you can remember R-1/9s on the A and D, especially if you were 7 years old in 1973. By the early 70s, those old timers still on the IND were relegated to rush hour service. I remember those cars very well, but the last time I rode them on the A or D was in late 1969-early 1970. There were some R-4s which ran on the D through 1970 and possibly later; they finally wound up on the CC. Most of the R-1s were gone by then.
I'm old enough to remember when the entire IND was R1/9s and R10s, but I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the times I ever saw an R1/9 on the "A". The A was pretty much purely R10s in my memory.
Most of the (not too many) "A" trains that I spotted that were R-1/9 were actually R-6 and R-7 cars, with one train of R-4s. The predominance of R-6 and R-7 would tend to indicate that they came out of Pitkin Yard, where R-6 and R-7 "E"s and "HH"s laid up. They also used the R-6 and R-7 on the Aqueduct Special "S" as well. There were very few of these on the "A" - I have only spotted five consists. All of these were from 1969 thru 1971.
Wayne
That must have been the train of R-4s I kept getting on the A then, because the first car didn't have headlights. I, too, can count on one hand the number of times I rode on a prewar A train, and never did get to go up CPW on any of them. I did get one once from 59th St. southbound, and the way those bull and pinion gears were resonating in the tunnel was sheer delight. I don't remember for sure just how high they were singing by the time we roared past the uptown platform at 42nd St., but I know I didn't want to get off even though we had a bus to catch. My mother said she got on a prewar A train once, which in her words was "almost white". That must have been after they started washing the R-1/s and ended up stripping some of the paint off them. I did ride a few D trains of old timers up CPW.
As great as the R-10s were, I was always delighted whenever a prewar A train would pull in.
Basically, the IND was all R-1/9 and R-10 up until the Chrystie St. connection opened in November of 1967, except for the R-38s on the E and F. After the connection opened, the R-32s took over on the AA and D lines, and were also assigned to the B.
The only portion of the current system that I haven't yet been to is the IND Queens Blvd line between Van Wyck Blvd and the 179th Street terminal.
I'll take care of that later this summer.
--Mark
I've always thought that the Polo Grounds shuttle in the Bronx was very intriguing. I wasn't born when this service stopped running. One day I'd like to get over there and see what traces of it that still may remain.
--Mark
In my 47 years on this good Earth , the only lines that I have not been on is: Manhattan section of the 3rd Avenue El, and the Nassau St Loop (actually on that portion that made the loop a loop. I have been on the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge back when the N was doing that.
I did the Myrtle Avenue El 2 times and the Culver Shuttle 2 times.
Just as an interesting aside. When I worked in the Chase Manhattan buildings @ Metrotech in Brooklyn (from 1992 - 1996) I could swear I could still hear the Myrt rumble past the Myrtle Avenue entrances to the 2 buildings that Chase has there. (I still work for Chase (just hiot 25 years) but in downtown Manhattan.)
This thread seems to have become "Confessions of the Rail Fans"
The pieces I'm missing are:
The 6 above 125 Street
The 3's Lenox Terminal.
The Brooklyn IRT south and east of Grand Army Plaza
The A from Rockaway Blvd. to Lefferts (I did make it around Hammel's Wye once)
The Q between Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge
The L from East New York to Canarsie
The M from Myrtle to Metropolitan
The N from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria
and the R from 59/4 to 95th
My latest additions were the 2 and the 5 north of East 180 Street one Saturday afternoon during the Spring. Both are well worth the trip -- especially from the railfan window of a Redbird.
Chuck
Looks like I'm the only one who has been on every line in the system, although some lines like the 3 past Utica and above 135th and the 1 above 168th street I haven't ridden in at least 12 years.
Ditto for the Rockaway line to Rockaway Pk.
Hey... I've been on all currently operating lines...
Mike
Just to say it, I got that done before I finished my first semester of High School. But then, I didn't have the time to go to school...
-Hank
The last time I rode every line end to end was in 1990...berfore I left NYC for the military life> I do miss riding up and down the lines and hope soon to take my son on on e trip before the end of the summer when I'll be visiting our fine city for a few days.
I hope to make this my last reference to Nathans for awhile. Years ago, my friend (Canadian) tells me to try malted vinegar on my fries at Nathans instead on ketchup (catsup), cause that's what everyone in Canada does. I try it, and it's good! A few years later, my girlfriend at the time has her two cousins visiting from Toronto, and asks me to take them around one night. I'm thinking, boy, we'll go to Nates and they can have vinegar on their fries, perfect hospitality,
they'll feel like they're home.Our last stop was Nathans. So as the subway rumbles, across the street at Stilwell, the four of us are ordering at Nates. When my friend and I tell them about the vinegar and we start chowing down, they look at us like we're crazy and load up their fries with ketchup.
Quite frankly - you are crazy. Vinegar on Fries???!!!!! In NYC those are fighting words. Practically sacreligious!!!
If we weren't friends with Canada I would say "This means War"
But to be fair I will attempt that the next time I go to a Nathan's and if I don't throw up I will get back to you.
Have a good 4th everyone (in the USA that is)
Seems to be an affliction of several of my friends here in New Jersey. But then they look askance at the way I and other North Carolinians eat a hot dog - chili, onions, slaw.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Come to Kings Highway, for the first ever Glatt Kosher Nathans (no cheese fries please). It's at Kings Highway between Coney Island and Ocean Parkway. I haven't tried it yet, I bet prices are way higher than C.I.!!!
Kosher observers can't have dairy with potatoes either? Or are you assuming the person will be eating a hot dog or burger as well?
< Kosher observers can't have dairy with potatoes either? Or are you assuming the person will be eating a hot dog or burger as well? >
A kosher observer would have to know what kind of fat the fries are cooked in. Strictly vegetable oil? I would be surprised. McDonald's used to use tasty beef tallow.
People who aren't vegetarians would be surprised how many "vegetarian" items aren't. Like most gelatin desserts.
A very observant person who keeps Kosher wouldn't eat anything from Nathan's simply because non-Kosher items are served in the same place, and/or because dairy and meat are served together, even if he weren't personally ordering such a combination. Some observant Jews won't eat in a strictly Kosher restaurant on Monday if it was open on Shabbos.
This varies by culture and necessity. When I lived near Augusta, Georgia, I occasionally needed a New York Deli fix. There was a single Kosher restaurant at the fringe of downtown with very good food. They had both dairy and meat deli on the same menu, and served them together without batting an eyelash.
Nathan's probably uses vegetable oil for its fries. McDonald's came under a lot of criticism when it was revealed that they used beef tallow, partly because of the perceived health risks, mostly on "Eeeeeeeeeeeew, that's gross" grounds. I'd guess that other fast food operators have switched to vegetable oil as a way of avoiding something similar.
So yes, we can assume that Nathan's fries are Kosher :-)
No, we can't. For those who are strictly observant the manner in which the potatoes and oil have been stored, prepared, etc. can be significant. I don't keep strictly kosher, but if I did I would be concerned about what else might have been stored in the same place as the potatoes and oil, what else might EVER have been cooked in the same cooker, etc. I do attempt to keep the spirit of kashrut, however, which means (to me) that I won't mix meat and dairy products, nor will I eat pork or non-kosher fish, and also some additional items. I don't concern myself with whether or not the meat has been slaughtered in accordance with ancient tradition (a method considered less painful to the animal than other methods known at the time); in light of today's modern slaughtering methods, that to me is irrelevant. Nor do I worry about whether or not the restaurant was open on Shabbat; that is the restauranteur's decision and he/she must live with it, not me. Besides, what defines "work"? The Orthodox and I would disagree on that, but I respect their opinions and would hope that they would respect mine.
By the way (for those who try to keep the spirit of kashrut) - McDonalds' buns are dairy, so even a plain hamburger there violates the separation of meat and milk. They are the only major chain, as far as I know, that uses dairy (rather than pareve) buns.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Forget King Highway -- you want kosher Nathans (or Sbarros or Burger King) -- come to ISRAEL!
aliyaaahhh NOW THAT'S KOSHER. :~)
Ben-Zion, I'd love to! Our younger daughter, so far, is the only one to visit - last summer for two weeks - and she's ready to go back. I can't quite see us making a one-way trip, though, not with four children and one grandchild (plus another one on the way) here in the States, not to mention my job!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not? I have 4 kids, all in school, and am moving next week!
Shalom to you!!
Shalom! and best wishes. I admit to being a bit envious of those who have the courage to make that leap, just as our ancestors did when they left the shtetls of Europe, the ghettoes of the Mediterranean, or the Dutch and Portuguese colonies of South America (where mine came from) for New York and the New World. But our children and grandchild (soon to be plural) are here, and they need us too. It would not surprise me if our younger daughter eventually makes aliyah, but I cannot imagine our older daughter (married to a lapsed Catholic) or our older son (now in college, considering a career in the US military, all-but-engaged to the daughter of a Southern Baptist minister) even considering it, and our younger son - who knows?
Again, best wishes, and once you get established over there and get back on the internet, let us know how you are doing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But, are there subways in Israel?
No, but there are railroads.
There is a subway in Haifa, and another one under construction in Tel-Aviv
Thanks for the info,Jack
That's it! I'm going! (I dunno when, but I'm going :)
A subway in Haifa, one under construction in Tel-Aviv AND a Nathan's, too. It wouldn't be near one of the Haifa terminals or near the Tel-Aviv terminals, would it? :)
When's the next hot dog eating contest?
Gotta go get some international video :)
The Haifa subway, if I remember right, had some pretty steep grades, right? How long is it?
--Mark
--Mark
If anyone knows of a commercial video of the Haifa subway, please post it here!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Haifa subway platforms, as I hear it, are stairs with landings, the cars are designed to, while being on an incline, to align with the landings.
The Haifa Subway is a FUNICULAR SUBWAY think of what would result from a rendevous between a redbird and a Mt. Washington cog loco. the track is laid in a steep grade and the platforms are terraced Go to www.subways.net click on "Country List" then scroll to and click on Israel. I don't know if the cars have water tanks underneath them as a true cable funicular does and if not, wether rack adhesion is employed. But either way this is the most unusual subway ever built
I see that John just answered about Israel subways.
What I need to get a hold of is the Israel commuter system track map. The railroad has freight as well, and they are expanding it all the time.
I'd like to do a Bahn layout of it.
< [...] McDonalds' buns are dairy [...] >
That reminds me of a curve in the whole thing. Nothing seems less Kosher than a Corned Beef Sandwich with Mayonnaise. But it is Kosher, it just isn't done, maybe because mayonnaise seems dairy, but isn't.
Eggs are pareve (neither milk nor meat) and oil is pareve. So Mayonnaise is pareve (just look at a Hellmann's jar) and you can eat it with meat to your heart's content, even if you're Glatt. But I've asked a number of Jewish friends if you can eat mayonnaise with meat and they almost universally think not.
There is nothing like some creamy (from Mayonnaise) horseradish sauce with a big pot of boiled beef flanken.
How true! It wasn't until I got married that I learned it was OK - up until then it was always Kraft Salad Dressing on a sandwich. Now it's mayo with my turkey and tomato (but still brown mustard with my Corned Beast):-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
THAT'S IT I've gotta come down to NYC. Here in Syracuse we have Pickles Kosher Deli (Corned beef piled 1-1/2" deep on fresh rye from the Jewish bakery next door) I don't think the manna that Hashem provided the Israelites in the desert tasted much better. But the great variety of Kosher foods available in NYC would be a wonderful experience. YUMMY :~P
Most definately. With all due respect to New Jersey, where I currently live and work, I still love North Carolina, where I maintain a home and will someday retire. But having easy access to good Kosher food (Ratner's right by the Delancey/Essex station and the WillieB, lots of great delis, and also some here in Jersey) makes being up north more palatable:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Comparing New Jersey to North Carolina, I would think North Carolina would win out in every way. One thing that can be said about New Jersey is that you are geographically much closer to the New York subway.
Politicians -- I'll take Bill Bradley over Jesse Helms any day
You kidding? Jesse Helms has become a very strong supporter of Israel ever since his visit a few years ago!
I know what you mean, Bill Clinton's selling Israel down the river -- CHEAP
You got that right. When we moved to New Jersey in 1967, I used to look forward to Saturday and our next trip to New York so I could ride on the subway (I attended Saturday school in Brooklyn, later Richmond Hill). My folks wondered why I couldn't wait for Saturday to come around. To this day, I say I have a four-track mind - express, of course.
You have to try Ratner's on Delancey Street on the Lower East Side. I ate lunch there some years back with my boss (a lovely Jewish lady), and the folks from my department (we worked over the river in Williamsburgh). A Goy like me got a gustatory treat the likes of which have seldom been equalled.
Wayne
I Know what you mean.
Ah, Pickles! During the ten years I lived in the 'Cuse I spent many a happy lunch hour in DeWitt. Of course, most of those were at (the recently departed *sniff*) Perkins on Erie Boulevard East, but Pickles still holds a warm place in my heart. Oh, wait, that's heartburn. :-)
--Mike
PEPCID is FREEDOM
You take Perkins over Pickles ???
My understanding is that McDs hamburger happy meals are completely non-dairy, this info from a milk/dairy allergy web page, and a recent change. That would, of course mean the buns are also non-dairy.
None of this has anything to do with NYC Subways.
There was a Nathans hot eating contest yesterday. The winner cheated by eating a hot dog before the start of the contest. What is this world coming to? This guy was no "mench".
Nathans hot dogs has been two TV specials on the History Channel and PBS.
Let's salute the hot dog or frankfurter.
That story made the Rocky Mountain News. That guy who jumped the gun weighed 317 pounds! Yikes!!
I wonder if Babe Ruth ever entered that contest. He was known to put away a few dozen hot dogs at a sitting.
I now a guy who ate 1000 frankfurters in 15 minutes. He didn't have any condiments on his franks. After he ate the franks he rode the F train home.
Oh....my......God. That has to be a record of some sort. The real question is: was he able to hold them down? Better yet, how much does he weigh? I'm sitting down.
Wait a minute - that wasn't the same sweltering F train Wayne was on back in 1973, was it?
Thanks for the update. Not that I'm likely to eat at McDonald's anyway, but if they're the only place open and I'm starving it's nice to know I have a choice other than fish!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
None of this has anything to do with NYC Subways.
But it does.
Think back to 1915. What is the first thing most subway passengers saw getting off the Brighton, Culver, West End and Sea Beach Lines (and the Norton's Point Trolley)? Nathan's! The subway had a very deep and positive impact on making Nathan's an institution. You take a hot summer day, the proximity and smell of the beach, intertwine it with someone getting off the train after a commute being even somewhat hungry and you have an urge that's almost irresistable.
And speaking of, I think I'm going to have a few hot dogs right now.
--Mark
In Ocean City, Md., where I visit relatives once a year, "THE" place to go for french fries is Thrashers. They serve them with vinegar only and even have a big sign on the side of the store that says "No Ketchup". Although the fries are pretty good, I always walk down to the local Mc Donalds to get a few packets of ketchup. To me, putting vinegar on French Fries is like putting ketchup on a hot dog - a mortal sin!
I've tried vinegar on fries, and it's not bad at all. Though my favorite topping is spiced mayonnaise, as served at _Pommes Frites_ on Second Avenue in the East Village (the proverbial hole in the wall, but terrific fries).
The only place I would ever put malted vinegar is on battered fish.
As for Nathans, nothing caps off a nice ride on the "Q" (and the "D" to finish up) train better than a pair of nice Nathans' dogs and a large order of gooey, gloppy cheese fries, all washed down with an ice cold Diet Pepsi, which I buy ahead of time across the street.
Wayne
[ cheese fries ]
I guess one is stuck in the habits of one's childhood, but my memory of Nathan's was that you never destroyed the purity of your Nathan's experience. Almost noone ever even put ketchup on the fries, no less (shudder) cheese. If you wanted ketchup on your fries, you put your collar up to hide your face, and went over to where the hamburgers were to get it.
Putting any kind of topping on your fries was further discouraged by the wax paper bags the small fries were served in. Ketchup made a nice mess of the fries, the bag, and you.
Sauerkraut for the franks was not available. Anyone requesting sauerkraut was beaten and dumped on the Upper West Side.
Real men didn't even put ketchup on their clams, but that was a little too macho for me.
Wayne, when you come to London I will take you for real Fish and Chips. I have to tell you that they are not wrapped in newspaper anymore.
What could be better, fish and chips, Ealing Broadway Station (or Clapham Junction) large Wally, can of Coke. Well Nathans at Coney may take the crown.
Simon
Swindon UK
All this food talk is making me hungry!!
But guys, visit the 'subway' outlet on Londons Oxford Street, just three doors away from Tottenham Court Road tube station,not only does
it serve subway "subs" just like in NYC but the whole area both upstairs and downstairs is decorated with NYC Subway maps featuring
views of City Hall loop and general track diagrams lol lol !!
-----BUT, read on!
In NEW YORK I have visited a small "deli" called LONDON UNDERGROUND
that is situated on a street just near the Empire State building, (i think west 32nd or 33rd street??) and the menu includes sandwiches
called Piccadilly Circus, Green Park (salad!) etc etc.
Can any Subtalkers verify the address in NYC, as I can't remember!!
However they served nice Bagels and Muffins :^)
Regards
Rob :^)
update/correction to last post
I seem to remember deli is between Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue
around the EAST 28 to 32nd streets!,and called London Underground.
Rob :^)
Rob, I am going over in October and will check it out.
We have a "Subway" here in Swindon which I frequent. Some of the wall paper in mis-aligned making for some interesting journeys.
Simon
Swindon UK
You're thinking of the London Underground Gourmet Deli, 18 E. 33rd St. (right around the corner from the Empire State Building) and its phone number is 212-696-2500.
-Dave
i remember when young we always used to get some kind of soup with the little hexagonal crackers. Do they still serve that? I don't think they have it at any of the other outlets.
Let me preface by saying that my day started on the Ronkonkoma Branch around 4:15 AM. So if I sound a bit intollerant, please understand. This story is only slightly shorter than my commute tonight.
There I was, on the platform for track #7 waiting for the 4:17 to Ronkonkoma this afternoon. Trains were uniformly 12-15 minutes late due to the holiday loads. My train stopped just outside jamaica Station and Car Inspectors were checking it from the ground on both sides (not a particularly good sign). Well 30 minutes later, it rolls into 7 track, announcing itself with the odor of burnt wiring. Well, no one got off at Jamaica and I pushed my way on. We were packed so tightly that I became intimately acquainted (almost) with two nice ladies. Well we sat there for 10 mor minutes or so until they announced that our train was being replaced by the train on track #1.
Those who know Jamaica Station can imagine almost 2,500 happy campers running from 7 track to 1. Well since the last 4 cars were not open, loading was slow and we left jamaica about 50 minutes late. By this time, the 4:46 had come and gone an while it is usually about 30 minutes behind us, today it was 20 minutes ahead. Well, when we crossed from 2 track to 1 east of Bethpage, knew the fickled finger of railroad fate was about to tickle us again. At Farmingdale we had the satisfying experience of catching that train & passengers who laughed as they left us in Jamaica Station. Now it was our turn to laugh as they too had broken down (and without the benifit of having a replacement train). The feeling of satisfaction was short-lived when I (we) realized that we were going to share our train with all those displaced persons.
Naturally once they were all aboard, the doors had trouble to which the crew announced "if the doors don't close, we'll be here all night!" Well the finally did and we left, arriving at Wyandanch, Deer Park, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma roughly one hour fifteen minutes late and withe the 5:23 from Jamaica nipping at our wheels. All through-out, the LIRR kept us properly up-dated
NOT
When you say the 5:23 from Jamaica, do you mean the Ronkonkoma-bound train out of Hunterspoint that connects at Jamaica with the Long Beach train that leaves Penn at 5:23? I was on that train, and as we approached Ronkonkoma we stopped for a couple of minutes, with the conductor annoucing that a train ahead of us had to clear the station before we could enter (something that hardly ever happens with that train). Not to rub it in or anything, but my train was no more than 3/4 full when it left Jamaica, and practically deserted after Farmingdale.
No, I actually meant the 5:23 from Jamaica which is actually the 5:01 out of Flatbush. 1st stop is Wyandanch which makes it a very desirable train most nights. Actually, on the 4:17 from Jamaica I never get a seat until Bethpage but tonight because of the train swap and my fleet-footedness - I actually had a seat for the entire ordeal.
Sounds like typical LIRR stupidity. First, why the heck do they stop a loaded train right outside of Jamacia to inspect it? Like it's gonna explode or something if it moves another 1000 feet, after comming all the way from Penn? Second - hey, it comes in smelling like it's burning up - they should have pulled the car , instead of waiting 10 min to decide to. Third - what moron decided to put the replacement on track 1? Put it on 8 where the Oyster Bay trains hang out. Not like a few min to load up a replacement will invade that lines extermley frequent schedule. Last 4 cars closed? Again, what moron made THAT decision? And finally, 2 breakdowns a night on the same line? What's the MDBF on the M-1s anyway? I've heard it's pretty low, but I, didn't think they were THAT bad. How come the LIRR can't keep their stuff going? Oh yeah, I forgot - they're the largest commuter RR in the US :P
Steve - hey, at least you don't live on the Oyster Bay line, with its rusted diesels and train every 2 hrs nonsense!!
Oh yeah - lemme guess, the conductors said they were having either equipment problems, or signal problems? They always say that. I wish they'd actually tell us what's wrong too...
Thats why many people hate Lirr
My feeling is that things were handled poorly from the start. I knew that once they held the train outside the west end of the station for inspection, there was trouble. When I smelled the first car as it passed me, it was clear that the train was going nowhere. My hope was that they'd cut the head pair off and continue with the rear ten cars.
What really is sad is:
1. The way the LIRR supervision stood around with their thumbs up their (ooops)and would not or could not make a decision.
<2>2. We were not adequately informed via train or station PA. The fact that the follower (the 4:24 from Penn Station) came and went and we were never notified is inexcusable.
The LIRR supervision at the scene was paralyzed by indecision. I would hope that the NYCT never looks so inept.
I remember one Sunday afternoon I was on the LIRR MU's going to Jamaica. At Mineola, the train started having mechanical prblems. The train would inch forward, then backward, then stop. This nonsense went on for like 20 minutes and the train crew didn't exactly tell us what was going on. When the train finally got going, after tying up the main line, we still didn't get an explanation. Remind me to tell you about the time I wrote the LIRR a nasty letter demanding an apology for a incident at Ronkonkoma.
As a railfan, you probably know how old those MU's are. But age is not the issue. Fact is, the LIRR can't maintain their equipment properly. MNCR and NJT have better on time records because their equipment is either new or overhauled. The only MU modifications I've seen on the LIRR are new seats and new headlights to comply with FRA regulations. But we're getting new MU's built by Bombardier. Joy to the world. They decide NOW that new MU"s are needed? I could have told them that ten years ago!
I know the LIRR electric fleet is getting old, but lets face it: when you consider one train every hour or half hour off peak, the fact is the equipment doesn't get any where near the mileage the NYCT cars get. They spend more time laid up, on average, than on the road.
I remember one afternoon back in 1987 when me and some of my friends were waiting for the #5 train at Freeman Street to go home. A #2 train pulled in, dumped its load, then started to pull out. Then someone riding between the cars threw a lightbulb at me! All I remember was looking down and seeing all this glass on the ground. The lightbulb hit me in the chest, but I didn't feel anything. After that, whenever a train pulls out of a station, I turn my back to the train. Anything even remotely familiar never happened again.
Threw a lightbulb at you, eh?
Hmmm . . . Not quite sure what to make of that.
You say the train dumped its load, so obviously going out of service?
Well, hopefully the poor bastard got his ass booted.
When I said "the train dumped its load," I meant that a lot of people got off at the station that day.
oh, was that you?
(just kidding!)
You have a sick mind, don't you Mr Chris????
You probably were the one that did it, Mr Chris!! You're the only one to say something dumb like that. Go to the head of the class, you have been awarded the Avis We Try Harder award for trying to be an idiot, and succeeding!!!
That happened to me a couple of years ago @ Atlantic. Waiting for a 3, a 2 pulled out and somebody between cars threw seeds at me .........
Don't laugh!!! At 149 Street a cople of years ago I standing on the platform while a northbound #5 was leaving the station. As I leaned over to see if the #2 was behind it a face appeared from in between the cars and that person smacked the hell out of me and the train must have been doing about 10 - 15 mph at the time. I didn't really react to it because there were so many peaple on the platform, so I just stood there and tried to hold my tears back. AND NOBODY ASKED IF I WAS OK!!
That was the most embarrasing part of my life, but I'm thankful that it was just his hand and not a knife or some other sharp object.
And the scary thing is, it's like they know exactly where you are and when to strike.
Whenever something like this happens to me (okay, so I never had the person-from-in-between-car assault), but something similar and I get violently enraged, I just keep telling myself that one day they will come across the person who will terminate them.
I always hold myself back because,
1) They may be armed and I don't carry weapons.
2) If I seriously injure them, or worse, I could be in serious trouble.
3) I don't want to lower myself to their level.
That's why they close those doors between the trains.!@!!! :)
No it's not.
They lock the doors on the 75 foot cars for safety reasons because there's too much of an overhang on some curves.
The rest of the cars' storm doors are kept unlocked (most of the time -- I was recently on a Q train of R-40's that had locked storm doors).
Mr. Bentancourt, I was just sharing a subway experience, not looking for sympathy ya dumb %#@*!!
Does anyone have photographs of St. Ann's Interlocking and Bergen Avenue Connection to the Third Avenue El? Let me know by E-Mail.
That happened on my train once. It was an early Sunday Morning. Anyway as I was leaving 149 Street The Conductor observed I object throwen from train to Platform as we were leaving. Samething at 143 Street. MY conductor then informed me there was 6 Youths between the 8 and 9 car with glass bottles. So at Cypress my Conductor walked back there to Investigate and I called Control Center. They told we to proceed and signal for Police. So My Conductor almost got hit with a Bottle so she ran back to her position and proceeded to Brook Ave where there was one cop. She only arrested 2 of them so we continued and the rest of them got off at 125 Street.
I don't understand why the MTA has to run diesels underground. I'm sure that either EMD or GE could build a low profile electric locomotive to pull their work trains. When they pass through at night, the whole station reeks of diesel exhaust. Some diesels they are. I have never seen them MU'd to each other. Anyone know what company builds these locomotives or did the MTA acquire them from another agency?
GE built them-check the roster on this site.You need Diesels when the power is off. There are electrics too.
Diesel work trains are amazingly useful if the third rail is off!!! Plus, nobody has built that type of DC powered locomotive in the US since at least before the 1950's!
Why not tri-power engines: diesel, electric, or battery, like the NYC used years ago.
Not quite true. In 1983, the TA purchased 20 new locomotives from General Electric. Ten were designated as R-77 and numbered OL883 to OL992 and had the traditional diesel-electric propulsion packages. The other ten were designated as R-77E. These units, numbered OEL01 to OEL10, had only traction motors and a GE propulsion equipment powered by 3rd rail voltage. Both versions have 14.67:1 gear ratios.
That's a good point. Well, if they must run them underground, at least they don't smoke like a Alco 251 engine.
Think about it folks, if the NYWB was still running today, what kind of equipment do you think would've ran there?
I think in 1972, MTA would've purchased NYWB and bought M-2's for the White Plains line and abandon the Port Chester Line. By now, the line would have been called MTA Westchester Railway.
I envison the M-2's being Single Cars, instead of married pairs and having WH motors and equipment.
Also, the MTA would've kept two old Stillwell cars for work equipment (i.e. line cars or Fan trips ).
I know I have a wild imagination, but what do you think?
If the NYWB had somehow managed to survive as a railroad into the MTA era, I think the MTA would realize why its ridership had consistently been so low (lack of direct service to Manhattan) and do something about it - i.e. implement thru service from the former NYWB lines to Penn Station via the Hell Gate Bridge.
Does anyone know if such service was ever available even on a transfer basis? That is, if someone got on at one of the current Dyre Ave. line stations, or at a station between White Plains and Dyre Ave., was there any point on the line (such as Hunts Point perhaps) where s/he could change for a New Haven line train to Penn Station (rather than a subway)? My impression is that such a transfer was not available, that the Hell Gate route was only for long distance trains which made no stops in the Bronx, but I'm not certain.
Aside to Dave Pirman: when are you going to post the final article listed, but not yet present, in the NYWB section, and the pictures from the next-to-the-last artice?
> Aside to Dave Pirman: when are you going to post the final
> article listed, but not yet present, in the
> NYWB section, and the pictures from the next-to-the-last artice?
When time and priorities permit.
-Dave
Only interstate trains use/ed the Hell Gate route, and there never were any island platform stations, hence, no connection to Penn Station.
Now, possibly, there may be a need for interurban service between New Jersey, Penn Station, Long Island City and points (way) north of the Hell Gate Bridge.
There were New Haven (not NW&B) stations between Hunts Point Avenue and New Rochelle on what is now the Northeast Corridor route. I don't think these offered service over the Hell Gate Bridge, although both the New Haven and NW&B probably used Hunts Point Avenue.
The service terminated at 138th street Port Morris. The building is still standing and can be seen from the Willis Avenue bridge, the long red building. If you look closely you can still see the N.Y.W&B logo.
An educated guess would be that it would not be connected to the IRT, since the Public Authorities law prohibits the TA from operating outside the city limits.
Since operating a coherent service as part of MNRR would be difficult, I also guess it would not be part of MN. Also keeping it physically separate from MNRR would keep the FRA away.
So my guess is it would be a separately administered part of MTA, and would use R44-type equipment, like SIRT.
It would still be a fifth wheel without better midtown access. It would perhaps have created additional impetus for the 2nd Avenue Subway (here we go again) for which it could have trackage rights.
"An educated guess would be that it would not be connected to the IRT, since the Public Authorities law prohibits the TA from operating outside the city limits....It would still be a fifth wheel without better midtown access."
But while the TA could not have operated outside New York City, couldn't the NYW&B operated within NYC on TA lines? That is, they could have formed an agreement whereby the NYW&B was a separate part of MTA (as you state) or even a private enterprise, but its trains switched from private ROW to NYCTA trackage to enter the heart of Manhattan, pursuant to a contract between NYCTA and NYW&B. As long as NYCTA trains didn't pass outside city limits on NYW&B trackage, it would not be violating the law, IMHO.
This would be similar to the practice of the Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee ("North Shore") and the Chicago, Aurora, & Elgin (CA&E) interurbans, which operated on their own ROW up to within a few miles of the city limits but then actually entered Chicago and the Loop over the lines of Chicago Rapid Transit (CRT). Mind you, while North Shore, CA&E, and CRT were all legally separate entities, they were all owned by Sam Insull at the time these arrangements were made, and CRT was not forbidden to operate trains outside Chicago proper. However, the analogy still holds, since these arrangements continued after Insull lost control of his various traction interests and even after CRT became a part of Chicago Transit Authority.
So, what do you think?
< But while the TA could not have operated outside New York City, couldn't the NYW&B operated within NYC on TA lines? >
There was joint operation between BRT and LIRR at various times, but that way predated the Public Authorities Law under which the NYCTA was formed.
As recently as the '60s, it was seriously proposed that the LIRR be allowed to operate through the Nassau Street Loop as a cheap means of improving LIRR Brooklyn service and reducing crush crowding on the IRT lines at Atlantic Avenue. At the time I helped prepare a paper for opponents which argued, inter alia that such operation would violate the Dual Contracts, but that went nowhere.
That such LIRR operation was proposed suggests, however, that it was not thought to violate the Public Authorities Law, so presumably a joint TA-NYW&B operation wouldn't, either.
But a couple of other problems jump in. First, connecting such a long distance operation to the IRT would force the NYW&B to use equipment compatible with IRT dimensions. Second, I can't picture how it would work operationally. The LIRR trains in the Nassau Loop could reasonably be resticted to folks with LIRR tickets (in city or out) because the only NYCTA stops it would have made would have been Broad, Fulton, Chambers, so at most subway riders would have gone two stations.
An NYW&B/IRT operation would be operating on NYCTA trackage for many miles, presumably all the way from E180 to Brooklyn Bridge or South Ferry. Would IRT riders be permitted to use the NYW&B cars? If so, would this violate the Public Authorities Law? If IRT riders were banned, this would cause both operational and political headaches.
Plus NYW&B trains would cut IRT capacity. It would be much more acceptable if the NYW&B trains operated with TA trains on a brand-new subway from day one on say, a Second Avenue Subway.
Just my musings. This is an interesting if purely theoretical discussion.
[As recently as the '60s, it was seriously proposed that the LIRR be allowed to operate through the Nassau Street Loop as a cheap means of improving LIRR Brooklyn service and reducing crush crowding on the IRT lines at Atlantic Avenue.]
Interesting idea ... it certainly makes a lot more since then LIRR take over of IRT tunnel to Manhattan (LIRR trains too wide) or TA take over of LIRR Atlantic Ave line to Jamaica. AND it would give the LIRR some place to goto in Manhattan.
From a quick look at the track plans it would seem that LIRR would need to take over Montague tunnel & force M/N/R from Brooklyn to find other means to enter Manhattan. LIRR would then have exclusive use of Broad & Fulton Street and shared use of Chambers, Canal, Bowery & Delancey/Essex (well maybe they would turn at Bowery). J/M/Z then would arrive over Williamsburg & terminate at Chambers.
The question is: would LIRR be so concerned about free rides to two stations that they would need to partition off the other platforms & force folks to walk around or thru some sort of fare control as PATH does ? The second question is: could the LIRR turn trains as quickly as the TA does, i.e. not per schedule, but per arrivial time AND what would that do to the scheduled meets at Jamaica & elsewhere. There is no place to store the trains unless the TA/LIRR don't share, i.e. LIRR ends at Chambers & TA J/M/Z ends at Canal (or new station at Cannal then J/M/Z uses Manhattan bridge).
Well, just thinking out laud ... anyone else think there some value in this discarded plan ???
Mr t__:^)
The original plan wouldn't have displaced the BMT at all. It would have used the Nassau LOOP, i.e., one way via Manhattan H tracks, the other via Montague Street tunnel, using capacity opened up by the ending of Culver-Nassau service. LIRR and BMT would have run side-by-side.
This was before MTA ownership of the LIRR, and all Brooklyn service was with short cars, so there wouldn't have been any clearance problems either.
There wouldn't have been any problem of keeping LIRR passengers separate from BMT passengers. Any BMT passengers who got on the LIRR train would simply get off before LIRR territory, at which point the tickets would be collected.
It seems to me they weren't thinking too far in the future, because what would they have done when Chrystie Street opened? Maybe they could have kept the Nassau as a loop northbound only.
Maybe they could have run the LIRR over the Willie B and returned the trains to Jamaica via a new connection between the Myrtle Avenue line and the Montaulk line near Glendale Junction.
As for doing it today, I would rather see the abandoned portion of the Atlantic Avenue line reopened and a new tunnel placed under the river from the foot of Atlantic Avenue to lower Manhattan.
Three possible scenarios come to mind.
If converted at the time of abandonment, the Westchester might have been integrated into the IRT, a sort of extended Dyre Avenue operation. Yes, I know, there would have been legal problems in crossing the city line, but laws can always be changed.
If the Westchester had somehow held on to 1965 or so, this would have been a tempting application for an upgrade with Great Society funds into a sort of East Coast Skokie Swift -- perhaps a racetrack for DoT's State of the Art Cars.
In the even less likely event of survival into the 1990's, the possibility of light rail conversion, into something along Baltimorean lines, comes to mind.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Here's an interesting GO coming up next weekend and the two following:
Manhattan-bound N and 7 trains will bypass Queensborough Plaza station from 2200 Friday until 0500 Monday. A shuttle bus will connect from 39 Ave to Courthouse Square, operating in that direction ONLY. Hope all you people in Queens have fun!
That ok on the No.1/9 Line People are already complaining about bypassing 181 Street All Times intil Oct. of 1999.
we could always prolong the pain of rehabilitation by keeping s station open during recontruction, Right? 181st street the entire station and elevators look like something from a bad dream. 168th Street could definetly use some upgrading too.
What happens if you want to go the other way (from Ct. Hse. Sq. back to 39 Ave)? Also what's the deal with the stations that are ADA acessible in one direction only? According to "The Map" 50St/Av, N/R Cortlandt St are acessible Southbound only while Howard Beach, Atlantic Av [2/4] and Borough Hall [4/5] arre accesible Northbound only. What if a theoretical wheelchaired passenger lived or worked near one of these stations? I guess it's just the TA's token attempts at accesiblity in the subway system.
Mike
These accesibility situations are (except in 1 case) not TA dependent. 50 Street/8 Avenue and Cortlandt Street all are connected to building concourses on one side that is at platform level (the latter is the World Trade Center). Now HB I think has an entrance on only the airport side and there's a bridge linking them. Atlantic gets accessibility by being at LIRR level. And Borough Hall has only 1 4/5 platform linked to the accesible 2/3 platform (the other is opposite).
Howard Beach has entrances on both sides. The entrance on the outbound side requires stairs to enter or exit the fare control area, regardless of which direction you are travelling; the entrance on the airport side is a long ramp. Not that it does any good - the airport shuttle busses aren't accessible to wheelchair patrons.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Trains are only bypassing QBP Manhattan-bound. So if you want to go from Courthouse Square to 39th you would just transfer at QBP as you normally would.
If I were confined to a wheelchair, I wouldn't go near the subways. Even if I wanted to go between two stops which are fully accessible, what happens if my train gets re-routed?
Has anyone ever seen a wheelchair-bound passenger (panhandlers excluded)?
Yes, a couple of them, but never unaccompanied.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've seen one at Brooklyn Bridge, he didn't look like a panhandler.
I have seen one amazing guy (maybe you folks have seen him as well) back in the mid-1980s - he was a double-amputee who rode around on a dolly. I ran into him on the northbound "A" train just after boarding at Broadway-Nassau. This was an R38, pre-GOH. He came rolling through from one car to the next, much to the surprise of everyone in the car. He wasn't panhandling or anything, just rolling through the car. I never forgot that one.
Wayne
My wife and I met an a guy a couple of years ago at Roosevelt Ave waiting for the E who rode the subway in his wheelchair. We were thoroughly impressed.
He was a midget & had non-functional legs, but he had the strongest arms I've seen in my life. He lowered himself down the stairs using the railing with one arm while holding the folded wheelchair (which had a giant Puerto Rican flag attached to the back!) with the other, then unfolded it & pulled himself up into it when he got to the platform. When the train came he did a pop-a-wheelie over the gap between the platform & the train. He showed us pictures of him crossing the finish line in the NYC Marathon before he got off @ 53rd/Lex. When the train started & stopped he would let himself roll backwards/forwards a bit, so he wouldn't get jolted. It was like second nature to him.
No athlete can impress me after that...
Three cheers! He has obviously decided that he's not disabled, just differently abled - a wonderful attitude to have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I oppose wheelchairs on the subway despite the fact that I have a younger brother who uses one. Several years ago, I think at Pacific Street, a wheelchair bound high school student was getting off a south-bound train. As he did, his book-bag, which was wrapped around the back of the wheel chair, got caught in a closing door. Well, you can imagine the outcome when the train started to move and he was flung at 25-35 MPH into a construction barrier and killed.
Doesn't this same person also go from car to car and ask for money also???
The TA does have ways to go in the other direction. For instance 50th st SOuthbound(ADA) to 175 GW Bridge bus-- Take the C or E to 42nd Port Authority, use the ramp to cross over and then take the uptown A.
The secret: Take the ADA accessible direction to an island platform (or to another ADA station) and cross over.
Why do some brooklyn bound trains end at whitehall st instead of going to brooklyn?
A train that terminates at a point short of its usual destination is called a "flip". The R train operates from Forest Hills to Whitehall Street, then "flips" back uptown. Usually, this is done during peak times to ease owercrowding or to fill in for a train that is behind schedule.
I think this is also done because there is no yard at 95th St. and all R trains are usually stored in Jamaica. If the train ran through it would have to come all the way back before being taken out of service.
Those R trains that go out of service at Whitehall are then sent 'light' to Canal St, and stored at City Hall lower level until the afternoon. Since I work early AMs, my guess is that in the afternoon, they come out and either go back to Whitehall middle track and go in service to Queens or they just go into service at Canal to Queens. The latter is what my first trip does on Mon and Tue as the o519 N to Ditmars.
Politics and Money. Those are the two things driving the Whitehall short turns.
Even though the ridership is roughly equal between Bay Ridge and Forest Hills, the people in Queens get more service.
Politics: The Queens democratic machine has more clout. they write more letters. So they get more trains.
Money: T.A. has but only so many trains. To give that extra service, while using fewer crews, the trains are turned at Whitehall or Canal.
The people in Queens wait less time for a train, and the T.A. gets it at a savings. But Joe Shmoe at 86th Street gets screwed. Typical T.A.
Something similar goes on with the Astoria-Sea Beach. There's not that much riding in Brooklyn after the rush on the N. But Astoria's got heavy standing room only crowds untill well after midnight.
Short turning some N's at Whitehall would relieve some of those crowds. A 20 minute headway begins just after 11 P.M. That's unrealistic in Queens. But justified in Brooklyn. So to save money, screw the fare paying riders in Astoria? You bet, typical T.A.
To short turn would mean the N line would need more crews. And that ain't happening. The R gets away with it because they shut down after midnight, so the time "lost" so to speak from the 8 hour day of short turn crews is made up with make work assignments. This allows managment to cut other jobs.
Conductors are supposed to work on the platforms to assist in clearing out lay up trains at Continental. Motormen make lay ups to the yard or relay trains. These are plum jobs for guys who don't have the seniority to pick full time yard or platform tricks.
I've read and talked to many people on the situation on the LIRR and about 90% of them have told me horror stories about it's service. I just was wondering why is it that I hear the most complaints about the LIRR vs. Metro North and NJTransit? I mean, and don't get me wrong but aren't the LIRR and Metro North both operated by the MTA. So why the problems with service on the LIRR and not Metro North. Just to make it claer my experience has mainly been on NJTransit and Metro North (Harlem and New Haven lines).
Short answers:
The LIRR is a much more complex system than MNRR or even Jersey Transit. The LIRR is also the busiest commuter RR is the country by far. Neither MNRR nor NJT has to deal with the complexity of guaranteed connections and conflicting lines LIRR does. There's much more that can go wrong the LIRR and it frequently does.
I couldn't leave the subject without commenting that MNRR seems to be consistently better managed than the LIRR, all other issues notwithstanding.
The MTA is more like a holding company than anything else. It handles the big money picture and the politics. It has no day-to-day responsibilities for operation.
There's something else. Metro North and NJ Transit get at least some competition from commuter buses. PATH also competes with NJ Transit to a limited extent. It's not perfect competition, far from it, but in some places it does exist. On the other hand, the LIRR faces virtually no competition outside of Queens - Long Island has no commuter buses.
Well, LIRR has competition for the Hamptons, I haven't seem it lighting any fires under east end service.
You can't mention the LIRR without mentioning the unions. The TA has (mostly) one union, which gets the credit or blame for the system. The LIRR has many, who blame each other if things go wrong, and do not take responsibility. Plus, the LIRR unions have the right to strike, and do every contract, just for the joy of screwing people over. And, they get paid more.
Recently, there has been a lot of press about the low pay NYC teachers and police officers get compared with their suburban counterparts. The idea is that those working in the city do a better jor orhave a tougher job, and are not rewarded. There is something of a case there. Same thing on the trains. Both Metro North and NYCTA have higher productivity than the LIRR, or so I'm told. Sometimes I wonder if some of the money that the MTA could be using for transit-worker raises is being siphoned off due to poor performance on the LIRR.
"I couldn't leave the subject without commenting that MNRR seems to be consistently better managed than the LIRR, all other issues notwithstanding."
Odd that you should mention management. The president Tom Prendegast
was a TA Senior VP and the CMO, Hector Perez, was a former Senior manager at the TA Division of Car Equipment. Both are collecting their TA pensions so how motivated are they really?
Perhaps this makes the case for coming up through the ranks. I think those who do are more committed to the organization. Also, I think that the MTA, itself creates a problem. It insulates our political leaders from heat and fallout when the organization falls short in performance.
I would say it has less to do with the size of the LIRR relative to Metro North - I'd say that a lot of LIRR's problems come from the fact that they operate at capacity. With things so congested from Penn to Jamaica, things go pretty haywire if there are any minor problems during rush hour. Few other systems (aside from NYCTA!) have this sort of capacity constraint...
But that is clearly not the whole story!
Doesn't Metro North have problems due to three lines using four tracks from Grand Central to the Bronx. If not, what do they do different from the LIRR
Four tracks is fairly generous for three lines IMHO.
The LIRR has trains to/from up to eight eastern brances on those tracks, plus it adds diesel trains from Hunterspoint/L.I.C. at Harold, and dodges Amtrak passenger trains (which generally have priority) and NJT deadheads at the west end. One of the electric lines peels off even before Jamaica.
At Penn, LIRR has only 9 tracks it can normally use, a few of which it sometimes shares with Amtrak. GCT has so many tracks, it can store equipment on them off-hours, and no Amtrak or NJT to play off against.
Three western branches converge at Jamaica with many guaranteed connections, then the lines begin splitting off again, one of them immediately east of the station. MNRR only has end-to-end connections, AFAIK.
Scheduling crews is a nightmare, too. I believe MNRR personnel stay on their own lines on any given job, either Hudson, Harlem or New Haven. (MNRR people confirm/deny?). On LIRR a job may start at any of a number of locations (such as Penn, Brooklyn, Babylon, etc.) and must end at the same location, but in between the crews may be all over the system.
I agree that the LIRR has one of the most complex operations imaginable -- and when it runs right it is darn impressive to watch (just stand at Jamaica during a smooth rush hour some time). In terms of train delays, I do cut LIRR some slack for the reasons you mention.
On the other hand, some of the LIRR's other issues (particularly maintenance problems and filthy trains) are inexcusable.
Subtalkers may be interested to learn that the NORTHERN LINE(Bank Branch) between Moorgate and Kennington in Central London will close from today Saturday the 3rd of July, to allow tunnel and track work to take place and the removal of various speed restrictions. The affected section is scheduled to open on Monday 6th September and will offer improved journey times.
The CIRCLE LINE is also suspended until Monday 16th August due to tunnel strengthening work, the surplus trains being used on the Hammersmith & City line instead.
Extra surface transport is being laid on with buses running to enhanced schedules!.
Monday Mornings commute should be interesting to us all!!!
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Since the Circle line is shared all the way around with the other surface lines (Metropolitan, H&C, District), what does the Circle line suspension actually entail? (Besides the lack of actual circular service, that is.)
-dave
The tunnel between Kensington High Street and Gloucester Road is closed so no Circle Line. Good eh! No extra Edgware Road service or Circle line from Gloucester Road to Aldgate, just a Hamersmith and City service to Aldgate which seems to turn up whenever it wants too.
What with the Northern closed and constant signal failures it looks like it will be a hot and crowded summer.
Simon
Swindon UK
No complete circle line journey is now possible, the Northern flank
being covered by:
Hammersmith & City Line- Paddington to Liverpool Street
Metroploitan Line- Baker Street to Aldgate
The Southern Flank covered by:
District Line- Tower Hill to Gloucester Road
So the missing sections are the Eastern Flank , Aldgate to Tower Hill
(pure Circle Line only) which has NO SERVICE, transfer has to be made via Aldgate East (Hammersmith & City/District Line)
and the Western Flank, Gloucester Road to Paddington. As NO SERVICE
is operating from Gloucester Road to High Street Kensington (pure Circle Line only), transfer at Earls Court (District Line and Wimbledon-Edgware Road Line)
Circle Line C69/77 stock being used to enhance Hammersmith & City Line services (except allover wrap "yellow pages" advert set now being
repainted )
regards
Rob :^)
(For those of you who are here, you'll probably see this when you return. Sorry I have not run in to any SubTalkers yet. If you're looking for me, i'm one of the younger attendees, with real short hair and sunglasses. Tomorrow I'll wear a black and grey stripe shirt.)
For those of you who aren't here, consider yourselves partly lucky-- you do NOT want to know how hot it is here.
Today was the first day of fan trips and we covered the Suburban Trolley - Red Arrow lines out of 69th Street Terminal.
First up was the Rt. 100 - Norristown line, out and back. We had a two car train of the Norristown LRV-type cars and a full load of passengers. Departing shortly after 10:00 our first photo stop was Haverford, then express to Norristown with the intent of meeting one of the R6 suburban trains. On our way back we stopped for photo stops at Gulph Mills, Bryn Mawr, and a couple of others, returning to 69th St. by 12:15.
After a brief lunch stop we boarded our two car set of LRV cars for our tour of the Rt. 101 and Rt. 102 - Media & Sharon Hill Lines. Numerous photo stops along the way including street-running portions in Media along State Street and along Woodlawn Ave. near Clifton-Aldan (not to be missed if you are planning a visit).
On my own, so far I have ridden the Market-Frankford El end to end in the new M-4 cars (seemed very nice to me--comfortable, a/c worked, annoucements mildly annoying). I did not see any M-3 cars still in service although there are plenty in the two yards. The ride is nice and smooth on this ballasted(on the west end)-concrete(on the east end) elevated structure. SEPTA is renovating all of the stations on the Frankford end. The untouched ones are in terrible shape but then so are the neighborhoods the el passes through. You pass street after street of boarded up houses, empty lots, junkyards, etc. Pretty sad really.
I also rode the PATCO end to end. This was a complete surprise. I had never ridden New Jersey's other rapid-transit third-rail type commuter railroad and compared to its northern neighbor PATH, PATCO is a pleasure to ride. Large commuter-coach-style cars (interiors reminded me of the Jersey Arrow cars in a way), very very fast acceleration, smooth track, railfan window, and an amazing ride over the Ben Franklin Bridge. (If only the NY DOT could get the Manhattan Bridge to be so useful.) My only complaint is that the headways, even on a Friday afternoon prior to a holiday weekend (I rode between 3 and 5pm) the headways were excruciatingly long and it didn't make for welcoming photo stops).
Well enough for now. Tomorrow is a tour of the City Division trolley lines starting with the subway surface lines and some of the north Philly lines as well.
-Dave
As I have mentioned in previous posts, some filming of NYCTA subways is actually done in Los Angeles. A former Southern Pacific yard was leased by Sony Pictures, upon which they constructed a four-track fake subway. They also made some fake R-27/30 type cars, which were powered by automotive engines/chassis. The fake cars can easily be spotted in the movies -- they have a window on the left side of the ends that matches the motorman's window; they also have a passenger window at the left front/right rear corners resembling the motorman's side windows. Among these fake cars, 8408 is a commonly seen number. The fake cars have shown up in "Die Hard 3: With a Vengeance" and "Money Train" as well as some commercials (notably NexTel).
Today I went up to the location of the fake subway, in the former SP yard. Unfortunately, bulldozers have done their job and some new industrial buildings are being built on the site. No more fake subway. No more fake cars, supposedly they are in a rail scrap yard in Colton, California and I will check on them in the next few weeks.
What I DID find though, nowhere near any rail tracks, and couldn't get close (but will check a map to find out how to get closer and photograph them) were a pair of R-27/30's in a field, on the opposite side of the Los Angeles River from the L. A. Zoo. (I was on a freeway so I couldn't stop safely.) They appeared to be in the MTA blue/silver paint scheme, but were HEAVILY grafittied (looks to be L.A. grafitti....) except for the rooftops. It was a rather "lucky" find, as "something" caught my eye as being a familiar shape a few hundred feet off to the side of the freeway while negotiating a busy interchange.....
Question: could those R-27/30 cars you saw been "donated" by one of the now "famous" New York based graffiti artists? I thought I recall hearing some years ago about one or more of those graffiti guys who went straight, buying a car or two to showcase the "classic 70's style" of graffiti art.
Could that be the explaination for those MTA schemed cars you saw?
Doug aka BMTman
I have absolutely NO idea what that pair of R27/30 cars were doing in Glendale (California). As I mentioned, I could not get close enough to do any close inspection, just caught sight of them from across ten lanes of freeway plus a four-hundred foot wide river. I did drive around trying to find a way to get closer, but could not; I did check some USGS maps and found streets that would get in, but that's for another trip.
I stated in the original post that the cars were nowhere near rails; I was wrong. It is about one-quarter mile to the former SP, now Metrolink line through Glendale. There might have even been a siding to where the cars were in the 4-5 foot high weeds they appeared to be sitting in.
I'm gonna guess they were just leftovers from the movie filmings done in the past couple years. Amazing where stuff winds up when the studios discard it.
The R-30's used in all those movies mentioned are real, not fake. A friend of mine took actual photographs of those cars when Sony Pictures finished filming the movie Money Train. There were 8 R-30's & 2 R-22's (money cars) sent there. Some of the cars were scrapped while others were sold. I am still trying to find out where the sold cars ended up at.
Note: Orange Empire Trolley Museum saved some brake valves, H-2-C couplers, WH control groups and other parts from those cars. The H-2-C couplers can be used as source of parts for the Pacific Electric cars which have H-2-A couplers.
When I saw the cars two years ago, yes, there were some REAL ones, but there were also some fake ones and you could definitely tell the differences. The fake ones had the extra window on the ends (both a motorman's window AND a left side window) as well as an extra passenger window on each side. There were about 15 cars in all when I saw them sitting next to the L.A. River north of downtown. (The "Money Train" cars were not there at the time.)
I just checked this afternoon (July 4th) at the rail scrap yard out near West Colton SP (UP) yard, and there definitely are about half a dozen cars there but they are NOT in a position to bo photographed, unless one just wants to see the roofline.
The two cars I spotted in Glendale appear to be real ones, they are in a weed-grown area at what looks to be at the end of "Braxzil Street" if anyone cares to look it up on a map.
Hey, just a wild thought -- is it possible that the LA subway system could put those old NYCTA cars to use (if they get the servicing that they need?) This would only work if the dimensions of BMT/IND configure with that of the LA system.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
Not sure what the widths are here in Los Angeles, but the length of the LA cars is, I believe, 75-foot, so that wouldn't be a problem.
One problem that would develop is signalling -- everything is cab signal, nothing on the tunnel walls.
The other thing -- a very minor problem -- is that the train operators in LA are all on the LEFT side as it's all island platforms.
Speaking of the Money Train cars, I SWEAR I saw a glipse of one during a preview (I think it was for Mystery Men) Saturday at Sony Lincoln Square, when I went to see South Park.
-Hank
Hey, everybody. I just want to say that I am glad to finally find a message board associated with one of my main interests...subways (obviously). Anyway, I'm a soon to be high school junior in Hunterdon County, NJ. Also, I wanted to ask you guys a favor. I wanted to go on one of those subway tours sponsored by the NYC Transit Museum, but I found out that most of them are booked up for the summer. What I'm getting at is that I've been reading about how you all go on fan trips (the PATH one, most recently), and I was wondering if anybody could post or E-mail anything dealing with future tours or trips in the northeast. Well...that's it. Thanks again, and I hope I didn't clutter up this board too much by my babbling.
Welcome. Just monitor the messages and you will see.
Babbling?
Nonsense. Welcome to the best Subway Bulletin Board on the Net.
As you can see from the numerous postings that many of us are very opinionated (and some are rather longwinded) but it is always good to have a fresh "face" to bring things back into perspective.
Enjoy.
There's been some talk about a "Field Trip" on the SIRT. Maybe it won't happen & maybe it will.
Too bad you missed the Newark PCC/PATH "Field Trip" & NY Days in June at ShoreLine/Branford ... they were both great.
Mr t__:^)
Don't fret, MJ, I have been toying with the idea of a SBK/NYCRR/Bush Terminal area tour. Although it will be railfan oriented -- if it does become reality -- it will most likely be a walking tour.
I will keep all concerned posted on developments in regards to a tour of the Brooklyn Waterfront railways.
I agree with Thurston -- too bad you missed out on the PATH/NJ Transit tour of last Tuesday. It was fabulous!
Doug aka BMTman
A walking tour of the SBK/NYCHRR/Bush Terminal area sounds like a good idea, Doug. Perhaps you should include the 65th St.yards of the Bay Ridge branch? (Or is that too far away?)
Once the weather gets a bit cooler! I'd love to go, but definately notin this heat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, not to worry guys -- this is definitely do-able, but in cooler temps to be sure.
For Bob: actually we are talking about 38th/39th street area, so yes, 65th street is a bit of a walk. However, with good company and a descent pair of shoes, yes we could walk it. (The blocks are not long in that section of Brooklyn).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I would possibly be interested in a walking/driving tour of the Bush area.I actually mapped out the tracks/sidings a bit a couple of years ago.
I will be in the States between Jul 26- Aug 15. Not avalable Saturdays.
Ben-Zion
Ben-Zion, July and August are brutal months for any kind of outdooring touring. If we go by car, it might not work out since there is no way to truly gauge how many people are going to show for one of these things.
But, it is something I'll keep in mind. If indeed I were to get an advance "head-count" of persons definitely willing to take the tour, then of course the driving tour aspect could work.
I'll keep the SubTalk gang abreast of my plans.
Doug aka BMTman
Depending on the schedule, I'd be willing to drive up from Jersey - and I've got a Windstar (7 people including driver). I might bring either my wife or my son, but that would still leave five seats.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
count me in. maybe we use cb's to keep in touch
I haven't had one of those in fifteen years - how about cellphones?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I can get the day as an AVA, I'm in: and I also have a mini-van with room for 6 others. I just did something similiar, and probably a lot quicker, with another conductor last week after the T/O prep class. He had been asking about the LIRR tracks in the Sea Beach cut, so I showed him where they went. He really didn't want to believe they were the same tracks he passes over with his 3 train.
Have you considered becoming a member of the Transit Museum? Members get an week before the general public to make reservations.
Rode the A from Bway-ENY to 207. At first an R44 came into the station. Let it pass by. Too crowded. Then an R38 came 10 minutes later. Did not get a railfan until Nassau. The run from Chambers to 59 is Ok. Lot of time signals. From 59 to 125 was cool northbound. We got to 40 @ 103. From 125 to 145 there are the time signals again. From 145 to 207 was straight. Southbound, there was some type of cnstruion betwen and 181. From 125 to 59 was the best part of the ride. Green signals all the way down withe the exception of one yellow signal to slow us down. 4100 was really moving. Also from 59 to 42, we roared into the station. I actually caught people on the northbound side looking at the train in amazement as we barreled into the station. That female motorman knew how to work that R38......... to be continued...............
Has anyone else noticed that the A/B/C/D trip from 125 to 145 is faster on the local track (including the stop at 135) than it is on the express track?
I was in NYC last month and had the privledge to ride an E train of R-32's from WTC to Roosevelt Avenue. the female operator was awesome!! She knew how to make that train go to warp speed and my kids really enjoyed the railfan window.
Well, if you're on a D train of R-68s, that's not surprising, especially if you're going against a C train of R-32s or R-38s. With a B train of R-68s, it's like a turtle race.
I can think of several locations in which locals zoom right along while expresses crawl, no matter what equipment is involved.
From where I left off........ The trip into Brooklyn was good as well we zipped into High St. But in Brooklyn. We were beaten by a R32 appraoaching Nostrand. It also caught up to us at ENY. That was due to workers on the tracks fixing signals and repair work from that fire. Comments
1. Chambers St look good. Hopefully Park Place will complement it....
2. Can anybody explain the junction at W.4? Where the JFK express come up? How the A,D, and F trains use it for reroutes in Brooklyn and Manhattan?
3. How did the trains turn around at the lower level at 42 St?
4.What is the track configuration at 135/Homeball Alley? Does the A and D use the seperate express tracks or just the two middle ones?
That was my last railfan trip for the summer.:(:( I am now back in SC. I wont be back to NYC until Dec with a degree in my hands. I will continue to help out where possible and ask questions. To everybody in NYC, keep on railfanniing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll give it a shot.
At W. 4th St., the local tracks have interconnecting switches. South of the station, the 8th Ave. local tracks descend to the same level as the 6th Ave. local tracks, and it is here that the switches are located. This is where the JFK Express switched over. I understand this junction has been reworked somewhat; specifically, it is no longer possible to switch from the northbound 8th Ave. local track to the 6th Ave. track, but it is possible the other way around.
Rerouted A, B, and D trains must first be on their respective local track in order to be switched over. Southbound A trains, if they're rerouted through the Rutgers tunnel, are switched to the local track just before entering 59th St. This is the last crossover before Canal St. F trains are already on the local track, so they're all set.
Trains are not turned around at the 42nd St. lower level. It consists of one track and one platform, and is accessible only by southbound trains coming off the Queens line, namely, E trains. Rush hour E trains used it during the early 70s. Aqueduct Specials originated from the lower level, but more than likely they ran light from Jamaica Yard. Otherwise, they would have to wrong rail into that station from 34th St., or do a back-and-forth maneuver from 42nd St. Now that it's been permanently sealed off, the only useful purpose the lower level would have now would be for emergency use by E trains if they couldn't get into 42nd St for some reason.
At Homeball Alley, A and D trains approach the diverting routes on the same express track. A trains continue straight ahead, while D trains turn off to the left or to the right, depending on whether they're running express or local in the Bronx. I remember being on a rerouted D train once which skipped 135th St. while running on the storage track; i. e., the track directly adjacent to the northbound local track. The storage tracks actually merge before trains reach the diverting routes.
I stand corrected in advance for any mistakes or oversights.
I got a photo album from the Transit Museum yesterday with a map on the front showing B service on Central Park West at rush hours only (tha map ic cut off before the end of the line). The map also has the stations that can accept MetroCard highlited. Does anyone know when this service ran?
Probably during 1995, when the Manhattan Bridge was closed from 9:30 AM to 3:30 PM weekdays (April to November).
The Map that year had 2 sides, one with regular service, and one showing service with the bridge diversions. The regular service map showed B service as rush hour-only. B trains ran as a shuttle from Pacific-CI when the bridge was closed.
That sounds like a 1995 map.
The MetroCard was started in late 1994 and it was originally blue. It was nothing more than a card to store subway fares so you wouldn't have to carry tokens around. You could only use them in certain subway stations (highlited on the map), you couldn't use it on the buses and free transfers and unlimited ride stuff didn't exist. During 1995 and 96, as the MC became more and more popular, the turnstiles in subway stations were replaced by ones with farecard readers and the fareboxes on buses were replaced. I think Staten Island became the first borough to have MetroCard buses in 1996.
By this time in 1997, all subway stations and buses accepted MetroCard and a new gold MetroCard was put into use, the blue one was discontinued (although you could still use whatever was left on the blue one or transfer it to a gold one). The July 4th weekend, 1997 was also when the Staten Island Ferry fare was discontinued. Free bus-subway transfers were started at that time and unlimited rides were started last year.
That rush-hour B service ran during the 1995 Manhattan Bridge Rehabilitation program (like it really made much of a difference -- probably just a bunch of GO's to make it look like they were doing something important), and the map you were looking at was probably the double-sided 1995 map with the service changes listed on it -- one side was for Weekday Midday & Weekend and the other side was for Rush Hour, Weekday Evening, and Late Night.
I believe that the Metro Card was introduced in early 1994(January to be exact). And was at the time good for use at 69 stations, including the St. George terminal in Staten Island.
I think the introduction of Metrocard started initially at Whitehall & Wall Street in January 1994 being the first two stations online.
You are both right! The two test stations were Wall and Whitehall and the first rollout was at the 69 stations including St George.
This was before I worked for NYCT but I bought MetroCards from the start and I do remember that in 1994 or 1995 they had weekend $1 ride specials but noly with metroCard. I do not remember the test staions since I was out of the city until April 1994.
With it already so hot this 4th of July, and with temps in the 90s to 100 for the next couple of days, I wonder how hot those subway stations are going to get.
I may go into NYC on Tuesday, so I may find out how NYC subways are during a heat wave.
Any memories of riding the subway in a heat wave will be appreciated.
Stay cool!
VERY, VERY, VERY HOT....DID I MENTION IT WAS GOING TO BE VERY HOT? I hope you take a line that runs frequently...like the IRT (but even then there will be body heat if the train is crowded). If you are stuck waiting for a G or other train that odesn't run as often...especially in non rush-hours, bring the water bottle!! Thank goodness for air conditioning in the subway cars...if you get a car that is un-air conditioned, move into the next car...its likely that the rest of the train will be cool. IN CASE I FORGOT, IT'S GONNA BE VERY, VERY HOT DOWN THERE.... -Nick :)
Nick,
It's going to be hot?? I'll keep that in mind when I am in an a/c #6 heading to work tomrrow.
John, If you want a hot train, take the "11th" car on any #7 train (usually either the 3rd car or 9th car depending on the direction). Those single R33 units are the only Non-A/C cars still in road operation.
Actually, the R32GE cars are also non-A/C. The A/C units were installed but there developed problems with the compressor cradles, so the A/C is inactive. These cars can be seen on the "A" and "C" lines, and can be tough to spot now due to the proliferation of regular MKCo R32s. The number plaques are slightly different, and they look like R38s inside. There are only eight out on the road, two others were built but now exist as parts cars.
Wayne
Hey, I always wondered about those cars. They looked confusing, R-32 on the outside, R38 on the inside. I rode one last week, and I just thought the AC was broken.
BTW, they're on the A line now.
I'm surprised that they're out there at all this time of year. Policy in the past has been to keep these cars out of service during the summer months due to their lack of A/C. I guess with the WB shutdown they need every car they can get on the "A" line. They must be intolerable in this heat, with not even a fan to create a breeze inside.
Wayne
They kept them on the line last year too. Ridership levels demand it but I bet those cars are empty this weekend.
I rode in one of those non-a/c cars on my Flushing line tour last year on a hot day in August but it wasn't so bad, if you stood right under the fan. :-)
-dave
I'm sure you'll find some die-hards who are impervious to the heat fanning themselves as they go. I for one can't ever forget my commuting days some twenty-five years ago, riding the Queens IND in such lovely trains as R-6 (all varieties), R-7, R-16, R-38 and the deadly Non-A/C Slant R40. It was like a gift from heaven when the R44s began making their appearance.
Wayne
For a real trip down nightmare lane, try remembering what it was like during heatwaves riding on those green R10's. Those small fans were absolutley useless, and the deafining din these cars made was amplified by having all the windows and storm doors hooked in the "open" position. Perhaps earplugs should have been sold all during summer along the C route. LOL.
It's not just the subways. I'm thinking about Tuesday on the LIRR, given the proliferation of "hot cars." Those things are like furnaces even if it's only 75 or 80 degrees out. I can't begin to comprehend what one's like when it's 100 out.
It was always thus with the R-10s, green paint scheme or traditional grey and orange. I remember a ride on the "A" train on August 5, 1971. Lead motor (and dark car) #3194. We blasted up CPW at what felt like a top speed of 50 MPH - did it make a difference? NO. Did the darkness of the first car make a difference? NO. Did the eight GE bracket fans make a difference? NO. Did the open windows and storm door at the #2 end make a difference? NO. As Buster Poindexter (fka David Johanssen) put it - HOT HOT HOT!! R-10 was beautiful to behold, and a classic SMEE car in every way, but it was murder in the heat.
Wayne
I never noticed the heat problems inside either the slant R-40's or the R-10's in my youth -- after all I rode between cars to get that oh, so wonderful breeze (even if it was hot air) as the cars sped on Culver or the Brighton line. Of course, the horrible rattling din of the R-10's (particularly on curves or over switches) was mind numbing.
But I still love those cars!
Doug aka BMTman
The love people have for the R-10 escapes me. Perhaps its because I'm young. Yeah, it was fast, but so was the R-32, and infinately more comfortable, even before it was overhauled.
Yes, the R-32s could certainly hold their own in a speed contest. When they first appeared on the D in late 1967, they would streak effortlessly along CPW at a slightly lower decibel level than the R-10s. Their blue doors were a trademark.
In my case, I took a liking to the A line early on when we moved to Jersey, and the R-10s ruled on that route for years. It was a marriage made in heaven, as far as I was concerned. To this day, I've ridden on more A trains than any other route in New York, and the great majority of those A trains consisted of R-10s. It's true that my license plates say 8AVEXP, but two of my other options were ATRAIN and R-10.
You and me both, my friend. I stick by my guns when I say the R-10s weren't that bad in terms of noise back in their heyday on the A line. At least I never had to hold my ears while thundering past 81st St. at full throttle. Put it this way: the R-10s were nothing compared to the 6000s (or 2600s today) in the State St. subway in Chicago. Oi vay!
Yeah, till the P-wire failed! Then every one got thrown off and had to ride one of the good trains. The ones you mentioned first: R-7 R-16 or R-40.
The WORST experience with heat and non-A/C equipment on the Queens IND had to be one hot day in early September 1973 - it had to be in the mid to upper 90s. I made the mistake of waiting out the "F" train at 53rd & Lex (you wouldn't see me ride the "E" even if there was an A/C'd R40 on it) and soon the sand ran out of the hourglass - then - along comes this R-6/R-7 mix "F" train, steam wheezing at every joint, a couple of thousand passengers aboard, R-6-1 #1277 in the lead - the train was already jammed to the fan blades and people were on each other's laps and what does the mob at Lexington do? They try and get on board! Some of us made it (myself included). After about five minutes of trying to get the doors closed, we were off on bouncing jaunt through the tunnel, with everybody in the car getting pitched around, falling into each other. And to top it all off - the heat in the car was on! People were fainting and passing out. Then, while still deep beneath the East River came the topper - at the far end of the car came the unmistakable sound of somebody in acute gastric distress. Enough said! We did not stop at 23rd-Ely; we rolled through slowly, the motorman tooting his whistle. When we finally arrived at Queens Plaza, people fell out of the car like in the stateroom scene in the Marx Bros' "A Night At The Opera". It was a miserable ride.
Wayne
I guess you had to be there. You had to feel sorry for the conductor trying to close the doors with no PA system. Oh and BTW, did the bull and pinion gears get anywhere F# or G above middle C?
P. S. You mean you disliked the E train as much as I did? I wouldn't be caught dead on one of those south of 42nd St.
We got up to about F above middle C, I'd say. We were really rocking and rolling in that tunnel, perhaps getting up to 40 or 45. Every so often you'd hear the "kchhhhhahhhh" of the brakes as the motorman played patty-cake with the GTs. One very tall gentleman had his Afro hairdo come in contact with the whirling blade of a pointy-nosed GE fan (after all, it was a Pullman_Standard R-6-1), which caused him quite a surprise. I can't remember how many times the C/R tried to get the doors closed, it was quite a few. Before that "F" arrived, I had saluted no fewer than four "E"s (on principle, not common sense; at least two were R40, and one had A/C'd cars). The temperature inside of #1277 had to be over 100 degrees, perhaps more like 110. In any case, it was an oven. We were probably nearing the Queens side of the East River tunnel when "Ralph" made his unwelcome appearance down at the far end of the car. We were a good five minutes plus at the Plaza, too, because a good number of people wanted OFF and an equal number of people wanted ON, plus the sick passenger had to be cleared. I managed to elbow my way off the train at 71st-Continental Avenue (I had tried and failed at Roosevelt, since I had boarded on the car's left side at Lex, and all doors from that point on would open on the right), by this time it had become quite unpleasant aboard. We probably got that F# somewhere between 63rd Drive and 67th Avenue. Once at 71st Avenue, a non-A/C Slant R40 "E" arrived to take me to 169th Street; at this point I would have welcomed an ox-cart.
Wayne
Ah, yes, that patented, trademark, AMUE "tchh-hsss" lap-release sound the R-1/9s used to make. It was just one of many marvelous sounds emitted by those cars. I understand the Triplexes made that same sound as well. It's easy to imagine steam billowing out of their sides, given the way they would snarl and hiss as they pulled into a station. Did that fellow with the Afro wind up with a butch cut? I kind of figured the ceiling fans would be wadawadawada-ing away, but the heat on? OI VAY!!! At least that train didn't break down in the middle of the river tunnel. It would have been deja vu all over again for you - weren't you on an E train that croaked a few years before that?
I often wonder what conductors would do in those days if the crush of passengers was so great they couldn't get the doors closed. Were they allowed to say or shout out anything?
Yes we were in an "E" train which gave up the ghost just after leaving 50th Street-8th Avenue. R-6-3 #991 was the lead motor. The heat was on there too. Even though it was November 29, 1968, it was still rather uncomfortable, since we were stalled. The crew tried repeatedly to get us going - we'd lurch a foot or two and stall. We were there for forty-five minutes before they were able to limp us into 7th Avenue, and we were bucking and shuddering as we went. As we expected, we were ordered off at 7th Avenue. The "E" just sat there with doors closed. I then steered Dad to an R32 "D" to take us to 47th-50th, and after a hop over the mezzanine, a Slant R40 "F" arrived and whisked us to Queens.
Moving ahead to that gruesome day (September 11, 1973) - the gent with the 'fro didn't lose any of his do - the fan blade merely bopped it, but it was enough to startle him. I did not hear the conductor shouting anything, but he was five units astern of where I was. The human cascade at Queens Plaza - quite an amusing sight. I immediately thought of the Marx Bros. When I first saw "A Night at The Opera" [HONK HONK! Make that two hard-boiled eggs..] I laughed myself silly at the end of the stateroom scene. I don't think the folks on the QP platform were laughing when the doors of that "F" opened.
Wayne
I get the idea that we both enjoy reminiscing - I know I do. One question: if everybody was in such a hurry to pile out at Queens Plaza, why did you stay on board? Was it a case of not getting off in time, or was there an equal crush of passengers wanting to get on? You said you were pinned in on the left side of the car and, of course, the doors would open to the right. I'll bet that conductor put some wear and tear on those door control triggers.
I have to admit I never encountered a train of R-1/9s which broke down. Or any other cars, for that matter. I'm this close to saying everybody out and push regarding that E train. There isn't much of a downhill run between 50th St. and 7th Ave., is there? Otherwise, that train could have just rolled into 7th Ave.
BTW, September 11, 1973 was a milestone day for me: I got my driver's license that day.
Well, (back to September 11, 1973), I was stone pinned in that car, unable to move in any direction. When we got to QP, anybody that was near the doors fell out. There were some people further in that also wanted to get out. A good number at the back of the car (where the lunch was lost) tried to bail out too. At the same time, refugees from the "EE" (remember THAT one?) and "GG" were trying to get on. I made a feeble attempt to get off at QP but could not budge. Couldn't get off at Roosevelt either; had to ride in that stinky train all the way to 71st Avenue. The conductor had quite a time getting the doors closed.
Going over to 50th Street, the tracks between there and 7th Avenue take a 90-degree turn then slope up ever so slightly to 7th Avenue. The Queens-bound "E"s use the lower level at 7th Avenue as well.
Wayne
I remember in early summer on a warm noon no less than a ten degrees
cooler station on the Canarsie in the tunnel in Brooklyn.
I almost forgot about those R33 singles until I came across #9339 on a warm day about two weeks ago. Open windows,storm doors hooked back,and the FANS going full blast! The only thing missing was the screech of cast iron brakes. Deja vu all over again!
Hey, out doors the R-33 singles aren't too bad. In the terminal at Main St. or in Manhattan then it's a different story.
The real problem under ground is the Air Conditioners themselves. The condensers of the A/C units blow all their heat into the tunnels. If there was some sort of ventilation system to suck out the heat it would help.
There are some tunnel fans available, but they really don't help much.
The tunnel fans are not always used. Last summer the press told of the heat at 168 on the 1 and how they stopped using the fans which are under the control of the fire department. TWU complained and the fans were turned on.
The heat seems to accumulate in transfer stations, with lots of trains going through. My station -- Prospect Park 15th St -- is still much cooler than the street as of today.
Tomarrow could be hell.
I agree. The WTC Complex (A/E/2/3) is very hot. As you round the bend from Sbarro's towards the E train you feel the heat even inside the WTC
You've got that nice mezzanine there to absorb and dissipate some of the heat. Doesn't 15th Street station also have vent chambers in its walls that would tend to release heat up the gratings and into the street?
Wayne
You know that 125st station on 4,5,6 trains is the hotting in the station and i was burning like hell.
Also went i got on #6 car #1725 have no A/C and the car was like so hot inside. People was packed on the next car and empty on #1725. I hope the city will not get a blackout and i really need A/C to keep me alive.
If you get an R62 or R62A car with no A/C do what I did when I got on #1374 on the #4 line earlier this year - notify the conductor or the train operator, and cite the car number. Tell them "#1725 has no air conditioning" or something to that effect. They usually pull cars with no A/C if they are made aware of it.
Wayne
depending how the railroad is running those hot cars may continue running till late in the day when they're layed up and then shopped. If there are enough cars in the yard where a swap can be made usually this is done during non rush hour. I can't see the logistics of pulling a ten car train out of service for one or two hot cars during rush hour, several cars in the consist it makes sense to remove from service.
I hate to bust your bubble but the policy from Jay Street is that hot cars are OK for service and are only shopped after service. Furthermore train crews are ordered by control center to remain in service and pick up an RCI. I was told by them that if I refused I would be charged with insubordination. Common sense does not prevail in the TA. If OSHA says that laborers working in temperatures above the human body temperature must be afforded drinking water and a rest period, such as the track workers do then they don't give a damn about us as they don't consider us as laborers. If they don't care aout train crews, do you think they really care about customers with asthma or the elderly? I have recorded temperature exceeding 120 degrees in trains layed up in outdoor yards and still was ordered by yardmasters to put the train into service. I think the days of David Gunn were comfortable for this type of weather even though 75 percent of the equipment wasn't air conditioned but the system was bearable as storm doors were hooked open and ceiling fans were cheaper to maintain. I remember the old IND as being cool in this weather as most cars didn't have dynamic brake either when I was young. Air conditioning created this nightmare you occasionally ride in today. It is too bad that the axiflow fans on previous cars could not have made to the specs of Almond Joys. Anyone out there miss the storm door windows of R-22s?
Those were good windows. The R-21s had them, as did the BMT standards. Don't forget the porthole storm door windows on the R-11s, R-15s, R-16s, and R-17s.
Yeah, they say it's gonna be 100 Tuesday again, and this time all those offices will be open, consuming electricity with the high residential demand. Anybody think we are on a road to another NYC blackout.
What do they do if there's a blackout in the subway. Is there emergency lighting, how do people get out of stuck trains, especially in narrow tunnels like the 7 train tunnels under the East River?
Anybody been in the subway in a blackout?
There is some emergency lighting in some stations (with more being added.) If a train stops between stations the police also usually respond. Emergency exits are located in tunnels. All NYCT employees are trained in evacuation procedures (including stations employees.)
Yes, the trains would stop, but crews have flashlights and would evacuate the train when advised by control or the police would respond and evacuate the train.
Why on earth don't they keep the fans on?
Transit claims that it is too hard to reverse the fans
I believe TA doesn't want to use the fans since money used to operate the fans in some form or another comes out of Station Manager/Field Manager or what ever they're calling themselves these days pockets. Line pockets of management and damn the people who have to bear the discomfort of using one of the most uncomfortable stations systemwide (168 st). I don't buy for a minute that TA has to account to the FDNY for use of those fans...
If the TA really doesn't like fans, the cold water down pipes plan at GCT sounds like a good plan for other stations. Though I do like standing under the fans while waiting for the GC shuttle at TS! -Nick
My memories:
as a teen riding the IRT with the end doors held open. When they started locking the front windows, I would ride by the front cab in the second car to get the breeze from between the cars (riding inside the car). The BMT cars with locked ends doors were actually cooler than the IRT. The only BMT problem I recall was a stalled train, with smoke due to a Hot Box after descending the Manhattan bridge to Brooklyn. We limped into Myrtle Ave where the train was pulled.
I also recall when the IRT had some A/C cars- the cars had a special decal outside which I found after several rides where the condcutor would tell the people in the two cars he used that there is an Air conditioning in the next car. (this decal was in addition to the yard assignment color band)
This makes me wonder, once again, if the TA is ever going to think about AC in stations...How about a little of it (don't try to cool anything to 65 degrees) in the HEAVILY travelled stations? Often, I think AC is a waste of money and energy, and actually uncomfortable, but not when platforms are crowded underground. I would imagine a lot of folks avoid the subway in the hot summer because of the heat down there!
the problem is that the stations are open. Even if you put doors at the top or bottom or both sides of the stairs the tunnels are still hot. there are also stations with no mezzanines such as Astor Place IRT or WTC E Line. Air conditioning the stations sounds great but can you imagine the cost and the power- fans yes, AC wont work.
Stations in DC - where it is even more hot and humid - are open, and air conditioned. It may be that they are somehow designed to have a curtain of air somewhere that prevents the air from exchanging, but I never noticed anything like that. Cool air, after all, sinks.
If you are sitting on the #7 platform in Times Square this time of year you get the distinct impression that the air down there does NOT exchange much with outside air. I am not saying that all underground stations should be conditioned - but I think they should consider it at the horribly busy ones. It can be done...
So the tunnels can be blocked with platform doors.
if a ventilation system drawing in fresh air from above ground and exhaust system at an opposing end of the station which would create an overall draft would be an improvement over nothing that exists now. Apparently i've heard though the grape vine that the system being installed at Grand Central for the lexington ave & #7 will employ air blown across chilled water pipes,, sounds good any other techniques out there?
Bring one of those battery-operated fans with you on your MTA journey. You can pick them up for like a $1 at like any junk store. The Union Sq. station (4,5,6) has overhead FANS on those platforms. Try to center your travels around that spot!!!! Have fun
Hi! Happy Fourth of July!
This is my first time contributing to this message board and I hope that I will continue to do so. It's very cool to know that there are a lot of people like me who are interested in subways. I thank everyone at www.nycsubway.org for expanding my knowledge and my interests in train transportation.
I live in Wyckoff Heights which is in Brooklyn on the border of Queens. Thus the subway station that I frequently use is DeKalb Avenue on the L line. (I chose 456 Sub as my name because it sounds better than "L".) I have some comments and also some questions that I hopw you could answer...
1. I have read a lot of comments on this and I must agree with the majority... The Montrose Avenue Station has THE MOST beautiful mosaics on the entire L line (if not the same of its kind on the BMT and certainly IND lines!) and I wish the other mosaics on the line could be as colorful -- not the drab, depressingly gray, blue or brown-looking "crazy quilt" borders on the other L stations.
2. When will the supposed R143 (correct me if I'm wrong) cars be manufactured, delivered and put in revenue service? The first subway line that I believe will use this car will be the L.
3. At the 8th Av.-14th St. station, I think new elevators will be installed in the station: 1 elevator for the L, 1 for uptown ACE and 1 for downtown ACE. Is this true? And if it is, will more stations on the L be wheelchair-accessible with elevators, ramps, etc. (i.e. Union Square, 6th Av., B'way Junction, Rockaway Pkwy)?
4. With the clousure of the Williamsburg Bridge, the L train service at rush hours should be either: skipped-stopped between 1st Av. and Bway Jct. with both service trains stopping at Lorimer and Myrtle (one train skips Bedford), terminating at Atlantic or Rock Pkwy; -or- express service with one train going express between Lorimer and Myrtle terminating at Atlantic Av. and the other train going express between Myrtle and Bwy Jct. going to Rock Pkwy. This will benefit both L and JMZ riders with better, faster service and also provide a better alternative to upper and east Brooklyn (i.e. the fire at B'way-ENY AC station). It would be a great experiment for the L if this succeeds.
5. Finally, I notice new tiles at Union Square on all the lines that it serves. What is supposed to be "the theme" for this station with some rather UGLY sea-green tiles covering old mosaics in the passageways? But there are A LOT of improvements -- the L train platform looks brighter and better than it did, say 5 years ago
(despite those weird-looking fire-extinguisher doors covered in glass and red doors) and there are new tiles on the NR platforms with provisions to extend the original Union Square picture mosaics. Too bad the MTA doesn't have (or never will have) enough money to correct the curved U Sq 456 platforms. I think it's too difficult to even try.
That's it for now. Thanks!
;p
JP456Sub
Yes, I will have to agree with you on Montrose - that one's a Blue Ribbon Winner for sure!
However, there are others that deserve an honorable mention - Wilson Avenue with its 28 colors, Bushwick-Aberdeen, Myrtle Avenue, First Avenue and Graham Avenue. The ugliest one? Bedford Avenue. No contrasting colors at all - the same parchment brown in the center, and the border's green (where you can see it), which does nothing to offset the brown. Grand Street is pretty ugly too, but the orange and blue kind of save the day. De Kalb is rather drab as well, as is 6th Avenue, but that one looks better in the mezzanine. Jefferson has a nice border, with the dark blue and brown mixing in with the yellow and light blue.
I think the R143 are due to arrive next year or perhaps early 2001. These are not a replacement order, they are an addition to the fleet. They will be 60-foot cars arranged in four-car sets like the R68A.
As for skip-stop service on the "L" - some of the stations are too close to one another (i.e. Grand and Montrose, Graham and Lorimer) to warrant it- it would probably result in the express trains waiting for the locals and would negate any time savings. Plus there's still the issue with the ventilation fan in the East River tube - they still don't let more than one train through at a time.
I'll have to do some research on the other items - save them for my next trip into town. They saved the frieze at Union Square and put new pre-fab panels (with the sea foam green borders) beneath them. But it still needs to be cleaned and reglazed. They did it at 36th Street-4th Avenue, why not here?
Wayne
How do fans limit the number of trains in an under-river tunnel?
Since the ventilation plant on the Manhattan side of the East River is not functioning properly/is undergoing repair, they have decided to limit the number of trains travelling through the 14th Street tube to one in each direction, figuring that if evacuation due to fire would be necessary, and the fact that the ventilation equipment is not in working order, only one train would need to be evacuated. They are choosing to err on the side of caution.
Wayne
While there is no scheduled express service, I have seem many trains ordered to run non-stop between Myrtle and Lorimer (and Last week, Graham), and sometimes from Lorimer to Union Sq. Alot of those inbetween stations are in industrial areas (I call it the "factory belt"), and don't have that many people at them.
1st and 3rd Av. really need to be skipped, because not too many people get off there, but several get on, but people getting on to go towards Union Sq, 6th or 8th Av have the M-14 option. It's annoying that they try to squeeze on the L with so many people diverted from the bridge. Often, it's at that point that the doors start giving out,(I guess they are not used to such loads. The Eastern div. usually has alot of standing room). One week there were breakdowns almost every day (and when there wasn't, then it was the 4 & 5 that messed up).
when did the sea beach become known as the N train? Is there anywhere I can document this?
The Sea Beach did not become the "N" train all at once in the sense that one day it was the Sea Beach and the next it was formally known as the "N".
Orginal BMT equipment either carried the line name only, or carried the line name on side signs, and a number on the front signs. The D-type equipment which provided all or part of the service on the line at various times carried number "4". R-type equipment which operated from time to time on the line prior to 1960 carried the "4" on both side and front signs. But noone called it the "4 train". They called it the Sea Beach Line or Sea Beach Express.
When R27 equipment arrived late in 1960, the Sea Beach was signed "N" on that equipment. However, D-types carried "4" until the end of their service in (IIRC) 1964. So for four years or so you could see trains signed either "4" or "N" on the Sea Beach, or if they were BMT Standards (which lasted fibe years longer than the D-Types), no number or letter at all.
It wasn't until the Chrystie connection in 1969, with its massive realignment of routes, that letters on the former BMT lines really began to take hold officially, and ordinary people began to slowly adopt the letters as the line names.
Documentation? Probably the best would be ERA NY Division Bulletins, because they chronicle first sightings/last sightings, car deliveries and retirements and so forth.
I hope I haven't made this too confusing. You could say the Sea Beach became the "N" line when the first cars were signed that way (1960), when the last cars bearing "4" were retired (prob. 1964), when the lines were realigned (1969) or when people slowly gave up the old nomenclature and commonly called the Sea Beach the "N train" (somewhat later).
I'm really curious as to which method you're inclined to use.
The Chrystie was opened in 1967, not 69.
For the record, BMT number markings were officially dropped when the Chrystie St. connection first opened on Nov. 26, 1967. However, Southern Division routes were letter-only by 1965, when the last of the Triplexes were withdrawn. For a time in the early 60s, there was a potpourri of either no markings at all (BMT standards); numbers (Triplexes and R-11s); and letters (R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s). The R-27s ushered in letter markings on the Southern Division when they arrived in 1960. They also kept the old route names so as to minimize confusion. It is worth repeating that Brooklynites referred to Southern Division routes by title (Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, Culver) and not by number (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) mainly because the BMT number code was never consistently applied to rolling stock.
To sum it up, the Sea Beach became the N unofficially when the R-27s began to appear on weekends in the early 60s, and officially on Nov. 26, 1967.
Thanks Paul and Steve for clearing up the Sea Beach number-letter changes that took place between 1960-1967, and to those who answered my original question of why there was a #4 Sea Beach running on January 24, 1970. A whole lot was cleared up. As a kid at heart, I have a lot of fond memories of riding the Sea Beach to the homes of both sides of my Grandparents during the late 1940's and early to mid
1950's before we moved to California in 1954. I still have to admit that I liked the number system a lot better. The Brighton Beach took me to Ebbets Field to see the Brooklyn Dodgers play and that was the #1 train. That was Pee Wee Reese's number. The #4 to my grandparents and to Coney Island was Duke Snider's number. I said I was still a kid at heart even if I'm 58. When I go to New York next month, I will ride the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach and pretend it is my youth all over again. Thanks again for all the useful information.
Ahhhh, Ebbets Field. American Heritage recently called it the most overrated ballpark, but it was more than the technical sufficiency of the field itself.
I only went a few times, but the flavor was much different from the modern stadiums like the sterile Shea Stadium. I never had a "good" seat, but the seat I did have was still intimate to the field. The fans were colorful without being thuggish. You arrived by subway or trolley bus or trolley, bought snacks from vendors outside the field, if an adult maybe visited the German beer garden.
You waited outside to get a ball or program autographed, and many of the ball players seemed happy to do it. And whether they signed or not, they wouldn't have even thought of charging for the autograph. Gil Hodges would chat with some of the kids who hung out outside his apartment building on E.18th St.
On a transit note, I remember a long string of Triplexes lined up on the northbound express track on early fall sundays just outside Prospect Park station. Usually assigned to the express in the last years of Ebbets Field, these trains waited for the crowds to come pouring out to whisk them over the Manhattan Bridge, up the Broadway Express to 57th Street. They then returned as Brighton Locals and laid up again at Brighton Beach for the next day's service.
I don't recall whether they went to Coney or Brighton before the layup, but they did carry passengers on the trip south.
Gil Hodges lived on Bedford Ave near, I believe, Avenue M. His widow still lives there. When the Mets won it all in 1969, that block of Bedford Ave. was remaned Gil Hodges Place for one day. Pee Wee Reese may have lived on E. 18th St.; Duke Snider lived right around the corner.
The Dodger players were a part of the community.
You know all those ball players look alike when you can't read their numbers. ;-)
Which reminds me that the Duke got number 4 when he was with the Mets. Didn't they take it away from someone else? Maybe Ed Kranepool? I heard that the Duke wrote a book in which he said he never much cared for Brooklyn and that playing for the Dodgers was just a job. Now I cry whenever I see an avocado.
Duke wrote what amounted to be his autobiography a little over ten years ago. I read it, but don't recall seeing any sort of statement that would suggest he didn't care for Brooklyn. He WAS fond of Ebbets Field, though.
Here's the scoop about the Mets: when Duke was acquired from the Dodgers, his number 4 was being worn by Charley Neal, who wouldn't give it up. So Duke started the season wearing number 11, and got number 4 back when Neal was traded to Cincinnati after supposedly playing a prank on Casey Stengel while he was taking a nap.
Ed Kranepool, interestingly enough, wore number 21 during his first few years with the Mets, but gave it up when Warren Spahn joined the club in 1965. The Krane then took his more familiar number 7. Cleon Jones wound up wearing 21 when he came up for good.
The Gil Hodges Public School is on Ave.L and Bedford............
Isn't that an elementary school? I know there is a school named after him, and there may be a bowling alley as well.
Steve, Gil Hodges Lanes was originally located in the Georgetown section of Brooklyn (just north of Mill Basin) on Ralph Ave. near Ave. L. In the mid-80's it moved to its current location on Strickland Ave. in the heart of the well-to-do Mill Basin section.
Like all bowling lanes in the city and on the Island -- it is rarely filled to capacity, as it is becoming a dying past-time sport (just like the slot-car raceways -- remember those from the 60's?)
BTW, I saw a newspaper article recently that featured Mrs. Gil Hodges. Apparently she still lives in Brooklyn -- I believe in either Mill Basin or the adjacent Marine Park neighborhood. I should have clipped the article as I recall the subject was Mrs. Hodges attempts to finally 'officially' rename the Marine Park Bridge 'Gil Hodges Memorial Brigde'. I, and I'd assume others eroneously believed over the years that the bridge WAS named in honor of the '69 World Series Mets' Manager. (Part of that confusion is the fact that many professionally produced maps also refer to the Marine Park Bridge as the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge).
Doug aka BMTman
There's a little league field named after Gil Hodges adjacent to Coney Island Yard on Shell Road, beside the Belt Pkwy.
--Mark
With all due respect, you've certainly earned the title of "Mr. Sea Beach". I feel sort of like Chris Berman on ESPN.
P. S. With a bit of luck, you'll get a train of slant R-40s on both lines; they're running on the N and Q now.
Steve: For you to call me Mr. Sea Beach is a real compliment. It has made my day. Really. I've always been fascinated with that train, and try to learn everything I can about it. My parents thought I was a nut when I was a kid because of my obesession with riding the Sea Beach. At 42nd Street, which was the terminal in Manhattan for the West End, Brighton Express, and Sea Beach, we sometimes had to wait for the third train if the first two weren't the Sea Beach. Oh well,
now you and everybody else knows. The thing I do know, however, is that there are those out there who know more about the Sea Beach than I do and I'm always on the prowl for more info on it. One day I hope it again crosses the Manhattan Bridge. That was one of my favorite parts of riding the Sea Beach
Hi, Fred. Glad to know I made your day. As you no doubt have noticed, we all have our favorite lines and cars and recollections and what not. I can relate to your insistence on taking a Sea Beach express. I used to wait for an A train at 42nd St., no matter how long it took, even though we were only going to 14th St. and change for the Canarsie. I absolutely, positively would not take an AA or E train, even if one of them came first. It didn't matter if it was an AA of R-32s or an E of slant R-40s (sorry, Wayne).
As I've said before, I will always have a soft spot for the N, since that was the very first subway train I ever rode on, 34 years ago, on July 21. BTW, did you know the Sea Beach line opened for subway service on June 22, 1915? The BMT standards made their debut on that line, along with the 4th Ave. line, which also opened that same day.
Anyway, the title is yours for the taking.
Steve B. I'll take the title with pleasure and maybe some other on line will refer to me by that title. It makes me feel good to know that I have a comrade-in-arms out there who once insisted on riding a certain train even if he had to wait. It used to drive my parents crazy. June 22, 1915? I'll remember that date. It also brings back to memory the year 1914. I now remember when I rode the Sea Beach after stopping at the 8th Avenue station, we descended underground and
upon entering the tunnel I saw 1914 carved at the top of the entrance.
Your note brought that back to memory. There is also the date of October 27, 1904. I believe the Sea Beach line is connected to that date or maybe the BMT. My brithday is October 27, so there is even more of an emotional pull because of that. One more thing. Please tell me what the Triplex was. I know it was a "D" type train and not a "B" type. But what made it a triplex. I await your answer---or anyone else who can help on that matter
October 27, 1904 is the day the first IRT subway opened. AFAIK nothing special happened on the Sea Beach then.
"D" types were an articulated train. This meant that three body units (thus triplex) were mounted on four trucks, with two of the trucks underneath the joints between the cars.
The BMT also had another train technically referred to as "triplex". the C-types. Kind of like Q's, but three elevated car bodies mounted on four trucks, instead of three separate cars.
The BMT liked articulateds, and produced others, both experimental and production, with from 3 to 5 sections per unit.
My favorite BMT line is the Sea Beach followed by the J. My personal favorite is the 4 due to my all-time favorite car--The Lo-V. I evenm have a Lo-v icon on my desktop! (Along with a slant 40, R38 and R16)thannks to Wayne!
Subway-Buff. You just found a lodge brother. Some are even calling me Mr. Sea Beach, but after reading your blurb, I may have to share that title. Tell me about that #4 model you have and whether they can be bought anywhere. Looking forward to hearing from you.
The models are just ICONS. If anyone wants the subway car ICONS, please e-mail me and I'll be glad to forward these icons as designed by Wayne, Mr. Slant 40. I have these icons:
2 styles of Lo-V, a slant 40, an R38 and an R16(in red).
Hey subway-buff: I would love an icon of a LoV Sea Beach with the #4 on it. That's the old designation. I don't believe a Slant 40 is with a #4. Naturally the model must be a "D" Triplex. My address is
330 Coyle Avenue, Arcadia California 91006. Let me know how much they cost and I'll take care of it.
The Triplexes served the Sea Beach and Brighton lines for most of their careers. They were the units with route and destination signs on the end bulkheads - the first New York subway cars to have this feature - and carried a numeral "4" when running on the Sea Beach. They are also referred to as the D-types; I personally refer to them as Triplexes.
The BMT standards were known as, among other names, AB units. More specifically, an A unit was a single car with motorman's cabs on each end and an active conductor's station in the center of the car. B units were 3-car sets consisting of three motorized units; the end units had a motorman's cab on each outer end (similar to the R-44 and R-46 A unit) and inactive conductor's stations while the middle unit had its cabs removed and the conductor's station was active. A BX unit had a motorless trailer in the middle; the trailer had a working conductor's station. On a 3-car set, the conductor was stationed in the middle car, which meant that on a 6-car train, he would be in either the second or fifth car. I rode on the standards for two years on the Canarsie line and cannot recall ever seeing the conductor by one of the button consoles. There was a BT unit as well; was that a two-car set?
The C units were not articulating units the way the Triplexes were. They were originally open platform el cars which were rebuilt into closed platform vehicles, then permanently coupled into 3-car sets. The Q cars were similarly configured.
< There was a BT unit as well; was that a two-car set? >
A BT unit was what was left over when the trailer unit of a BX was removed. I was told at the time that the "T" in BT stood for "Twin" as in "two" as it was a 2-car set.
< The C units were not articulating units the way the Triplexes were. They were originally open platform el cars which were rebuilt into closed platform vehicles, then permanently coupled into 3-car sets. The Q cars were similarly configured. >
You are correct--the C types were not true articulated in the sense that the D types were. The 3 bodies rode on 6 trucks, so that there was no single truck underneath an articulation joint.
However, they were permanently coupled with heavy drawbars and permanent corridors between the individual cars, as on the true articulateds. The kingpins of the trucks on adjacent units were very close--under 11 feet.
The Qs, OTOH, remained completely individual cars.
Thanks for the clarification. The BMT standards had other designations over the years, most notably an extra "A" while they were being retrofitted with MUDC to distinguish between those cars which had been reworked and those which hadn't been. Once the entire fleet was reworked, the extra "A" was dropped. Subway Cars of the BMT has detailed information about this.
There was also an "AX." These were 3 car units of 2700-2719 non-permanently coupled with trailers 4040-4049. Eventually, 2700-2919 were returned to A status and all trailers were coupled with the 2400 series.
This was important to people who had the Silver Leaf HO brass cars, which were deck roof only, who wanted to make up prototypical units with trailers.
I seem to recall a BMT subway car where the conductor's controls were visible on the inside wall of the car, not in a cab---kind of like push buttons---were they triplexes or what?
Triplexes and, IIRC, Q-types had inside as well as outside controls of similar type.
The BMT Standards had operating controls between the doors. In later years they weren't used as much, but for a kid riding on the Canarsie line back in the late 60s, those buttons were fun to push, even if they didn't do anything.
Where can I find information about upcoming Fantrips, assuming these haven't been scrapped? Is information posted here by any chance?
Yes, fan trips are usually talked about here (i hesitate to say "announced" because this site is not the official site of any of the organizations which coordinate fan trips). I try to post them in the Upcoming Events calendar as well.
Dave: Until I got my bearings and got online, I wrote to you in a totally confused state concerning fan trips. I saw pictures of them taken in the 1970's with their old number configurations and ate my heart out. I didn't know they existed and now I haven't heard of any concerning the New York subway. I have to feel there are others like me who would love to go down memory lane on a fan trip. I believe you would be doing a lot of us a favor if you keep us posted any way you can. My antenna is out there for any word of such a trip. Until next time....Fred the Sea Beach Man
Well you've probably seen it but again, for those who haven't, there's an Upcoming Events Calendar that I maintain. If I hear of something that I think is relevant to the interests of this web site I'll post it in there.
-Dave
Besides the trips done by the TA Museum & NY Div of ERA several of us subway buffs are thinking about more "Field Trips".
In the works to some extent are:
- Staten Island ... maybe on a weekend, by Hank and others
- Brooklyn waterfront ... walking or via cars, by Doug
- "Beaches", i.e. Rockaways & Long Beach ... would include B-U-S to Long Beach and Nathan's of Oceanside (Motorcycle or old car night), by Peggy & yours truely ... probally August, as I need to do a little pre-trip research, i.e. how much of a stroll to Boardwalk & Italian Ice stands at Long Beach ... will Burger King let you change if you buy something ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston----If you are planning something like this, you mentioned August. That would be great. I'm going to be in Ny from August 6-19 and would love to be involved in something of this order. Do what you can and keep me posted. It's a great idea.
Also note that the Transit Museum, which has sponsored most of the Museum fantrips over the past few years, has been VERY quiet on this one in 1999. There haven't been ANY fantrips at all this year, and there's nothing planned through the summer at least.
The Lo-V fantrip run late in the summer the past three years is sponsored by a different organization, and the last info I have (May of this year) is even THAT trip isn't a sure thing this year.
--Mark
Yeah, the TA museum is pretty pathetic when it comes to organizing fan trips.
The best ones so far as 1999 are the fan-organized ones, like Peggy Darlington's informative PATH/Newark Subway trip of last month.
Keep you eyes on SubTalk for further developments on upcoming fan-run trips and tours.
Doug aka BMTman
Looks like it's official - PATCO fares will be going up. The DRPA blessed it last week. No date has been given for the increase, which will involve three steps apparently to occur on an annual basis. The first step, which will happen this year, will see the highest fare (end to end) going up by 25 cents. Of course, this is still a bargain and one must keep in mind that the fares have been at their current level since 1983. Where else in transit has this happened? In 1983, for comparison purposes, SEPTA fares were 85 cents. Now the base fare is $1.60.
Bob--
Word I'm getting is that the fares could be increased sometime this month. It would happen on a Saturday, to give people enough "adjustment time" before the next weekday.
Michael
I haven't heard. Most of the press is going toward the toll increase on DRPA's four bridges, and the commitment here is that the tolls won't increase before Labor Day. There's a tie to the introduction of EZ Pass on the bridges also, which has been announced as "coming soon" for the past year but still not here. The only comment I heard on PATCO was that it wouldn't happen this summer. There are always complicated things to work out, even on a fully computerized system (go figure!), with the fare cards, etc. Also, the parking lot fee is going up, and this will have to be dealt with. I'll keep the group posted.
It would make sense to go into effect on a Sunday, which would affect the fewest riders and give some time for all the tweaking, etc needed.
What will they do for holders of the current tickets- will they be valid or will they be a rememberance of the past or will they be accepted for trade in (with the difference in cost)
Good question! Since it's been so long since the last fare increase, who remembers? My recollection is that the farecards are valid until they are used. I don't think this is well publicized (due to possible hoarding). I do know that I have a 10-ride ticket I bought in 1978 and it still has 2 rides left on it. It had 3 until '83 when I used one (the last time I used it). We'll see what the local press says once the effective date of the increase is announced.
I was planning on riding the 7:52pm out of MetroPark. It showed up at 8:30pm and could not get up to speed. It was canceled at rahway. First they told us to walk forward then it was walk back sicne they "ran long".
We had to wait 10 minutes for a train coming from long Branch which would be coming in on LOW PLATFORM since our B/O train was blocking the high platform (just outside the the NY end of the station). Add to that the normal crowd at Rahway. The train arrives and the crew could not get the trapdoor open so only ONE door was open to board that train. The conditions turned into a mob scene with people being unable to exit the train and some actually trying to climb the train to enter between cars. We left Rahway at 9:20pm and a wall to wall mob was still at the station. We arrived at NY Penn 90 minutes late!
The crew should have radioed for the transit police when they knew they had to dump the train at Rahway. Several conductors from NJT valiantly tried to keep order but had to almost literally flee for their lives.
I realize trains break down but NJT has no excuse for the near riot at Rahway- especially on holidays with special events they will have heavy riderhip and should have transit police patrols in kley locations ready to respond to B/O trains. They should monitor the trains and respond immediately to aid a B/O train. Yes- I am e-mailing NJT.
The last few evenings I have noticed several linked trains running ont the 6- including 1756-1760, 1711-1715 among others. I have been lucky enough to leave Astor Place when one one these arrived and took the opportunity to walk to another car and they do appear to be linked.
I have also noticed one R62(a) car 1760 I think with a medium gray with brown and black "pebbling" terrazo look floor- it is in several panels with black seams running teransverse. Near the cab ends/end storm doors, the floor is in three sections. From that one car's looks I rank this new floor as my favorite followed by B Division's Black floor cars.
Pelham Bay Dave- are they being linked? what about the new floors?
I have also noticed these "black" floors on the R68A's that run on the B line. They certainly look better, and cut down on the "glare" that the shiny stainless steel interiors produce. They also make the floors look cleaner. I wonder why only a few cars have them.
Another oddity is that some R62's on the #4 do not have those annoyingly small "segmented" seats, but simply 3 sections forming one, long bench. I wish all R62's were fitted with these, as those segmented seats are WAY to small.
I'm not sure which seats you are specifically referring to, but I have a real problem with any of the molded seats - they just aren't big enough for most adults. With all due respect to the women who frequent this board, they were either designed by (1) an anorexic female, (2) someone with a passionate hatred of anyone over 12 years old, or (3) someone who doesn't have to ride the subway and therefore doesn't care. As a middle-aged male who is somewhat broad of beam - like many folks my age - I simply don't fit. For that matter, my younger son - 13 years old, almost 6 feet tall and still growing - doesn't fit well either, and his weight, unlike mine, is reasonably proportionate to his height.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They were designed to the "specifications" of the "average" Japanese person's frame and were ridiculed by the public and the press when the MTA first took delivery of the cars.
--Mark
I've heard a much different theory: The TA specified a certain number of seats in the car that was nearly impossible to attain, so the seat width was reduced by 3/4" to increase seated capacity.
-Hank
Either way, the responsibility rests with the MTA or TA official(s) -- none of whom ride in the subway since they all have limos -- who either accepted cars with such specs or imposed requirements which made such seats inevitable. Maybe we should change the specs for officials.
The cars you're referring to are 1586-1591 (6 cars, which means that one is part of a different 5-car set!). The cars were delivered in 1985 with these seats as a test, after people complained that the bucket seats didn't offer enough room.
The R-142/R-142A cars will come in with bench-style seating, closer in shape to the above-mentioned seats than to bucket seats.
David
[Another oddity is that some R62's on the #4 do not have those annoyingly small "segmented" seats, but simply 3 sections forming one, long bench. I wish all R62's were fitted with these, as those segmented seats are WAY to small.]
NO ! The floor was grey in the Pelham Car that I saw- I think it was 1760 or 1670- not a typo but I did not have a pad of paper handy.
Does that mean that there wont be seats like the R110A?
Yes Pelham has started linking back in October. I believe 1691-1695 was one of the First. Also car 1696-1700 is also linked.
Hey Pelham Bay Dave, How come after R62 #1730's and up doesn't have linked together? All i see it full Width cars on 1, 5, 6, and 0 cars. They should have done all the cars by now. They having problem with the Cars?
Peace Out
"Meaney"
I have noticed some trains with a linked 5 car set and 5 single cars.
ex:1696-1697-1698-1699-1700, 1800-1813-1815-1820-1812
(the second set is just made up numbers). I also have noticed that sometimes in the unlinked half there are two adjacent numbers such as 1900-1901 (made up numbers).
At some point, will all the Pelham silverbirds be linked or are they(the big wigs at Jay Street) saving some as singles for the 3 and the Times Square Shuttle?
Hi Folks, ok lets admit that the ridership has increased on the # 7 line. But TAKE OFF THE FAN CARS!!!!!!!! So what, 1 less car.But also 10 FULLY air coditioned cars!!!!!!!! whats the problem? Does the MTA want people to pass out and get very sick in the fan cars? It sure looks that way. The next couple of days are saying 100-105 degrees!!!! lets wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!!!!!take off those damn fan cars !!!!!! Please e mail me if you agree.
Because there are no air-conditioning on the R33S cars, #7
trains actually do consist of 10 R36 cars during summer.
Chaohwa
Yes this was true in the past, but like I posted in another thread, they did not remove the cars in 1998 or again this year, citing too much ridership.
It would be interesting to see if, during the past 2 days (Mon & Tues 7/5 & 7/6), if the 10 cars with A/C were crowded with an relatively empty R33S in the consist.
--Mark
The TA used to do that, but they got criticized rather strongly in the press. You say "So What", but the press ans TV stations didn't feel that way. There are people (myself excluded) who actually like it hot and dislike air conditioning! Some people actually DO ride in the single car!
Yeah -- like me.
I don't mind the lack of AC and the fans and open doors and windows are good enough compensation for riding in an empty or near-empty car, where I actually don't have to stand.
Everyone who uses that line knows which cars to avoid (third car from the Queens end). And how is it any different from a car with defective A/C?
And how do you think people were able to deal with the heat before the mid 70's, when cars equipped with A/C were just beginning to become a rule, rather than an exception?
-Hank
My own feeling is that the R-33 Corona cars are quite different from a hot car due to defective HVAC. The R-33s have 3 or 4 fans (I forget which). A standard A/C car has just 2 blowers. The blowers do not move the car air as efficiently as the fans. In addition, a hot car might just be caused by an open blower motor. Finally, the HVAC vents are far more restrictive to air flow that the fan louvers. If I had a choice, give me a fan car.
By the way Hank, I have the info you asked for but the E-mail keeps coming back. Contact me......
Four fans.
Wait up! In the 1970's there were fewer cars with A/C so the system was quite cooler. Fans for the most part with hooked storm doors weren't that bad.
A/C is a double edged sword. You get more comfortable trains at the price of unbearable stations. I'm not sure it's worth it. Whenever the power goes off or there's an evacuation, inevitably someone faints or has chest pains from the 120 degree temprature and 100% humidity.
so far all the`R-46's I have had on the F this week are OK. Thanks Steve. Tell the Car Inspectors good work.
I'll take hot stations as the price for A/C in the cars. Some day they'll put A/C in the stations. Of course, then you won't be able to walk on the sidewalks near the stations while the A/C is running. Except, of course for the elevated stations. I'm not sure if they will be be able to put A/C in them. On the other hand, how much hotter does an elevated station get because of A/C on the trains?
Thanks Erik. So far this season, we've been running at 96% cars with working HVAC. If anyone finds a hot one, E-mail me the car # and it'll be off the road that day for repairs.
If too many people are in one car then you wont feel the air anyway so what difference does it make?
You know, back in the 50's and 60's we didn't have air conditioning in the New york subway. And you didn't see people passing out in the heat either.
The buses weren't air conditioned either......
But the stations and tunnels weren't as hot as they are now, with almost every single subway car being AC equipped. Heat, like all energy, cannot be created or destroyed. AC works not by getting rid of heat, but drawing it from the inside of a subway car and blowing it outside the car. That heat has to go somewhere, and that's why some stations feel like furnaces from hell.
If someone could come up with an AC system that would store heat for discarding at a later, more convienent time, rather than just depositing outside of a car, then this problem could be solved.
It is not true that "heat, like all energy, cannot be created or destroyed." While it is true that the total amount of energy is constant (except for nuclear fusion and fission, in both of which cases matter is converted into energy), energy can be changed from one form into another. For example, moving trains are stopped by converting their kinetic energy into heat. (Ask anyone who has had to get close to the brakes on a train or automobile or truck or bus or airplane, just after the brakes have been used.) As another example, most electricity (but not hydro-electricity) is generated by turning heat into kinetic energy using a turbine. The problem is NOT that heat cannot be destroyed. The problem is that no has brought to the market a practical device for converting the heat being thrown off by the A/C unit on a train into a more useful form of energy, such as light or electricity or kinetic energy.
I was just enjoying your pictures once again, that are posted at this site. I noticed something that I had not noticed before. Is the anti-climber missing from the one end of gate car #1227? I am surprised that I didn't see this earlier.
Karl B
Karl,
A good observation! You know, I was just looking over the photo and I realized that yes, 1227 is missing an anticlimber. Why???? I don't really know why this is the case, but let me make a brief point.
Early el cars, as well as some subway cars did not have anticlimbers. The anticlimber only cam later. Those folks in the transit companies must have gotten tired of seeing numerous accidents because there was no protection on the ends of the el/subway cars. Bad accidents really did occur, when you consider that in the early days of transit, cars were made of wood. Cars that telescoped into each other sustained severe damage as a result.
The invention of the anticlimber came, I belief shortly after the turn of the century. With the anticlimber, accidents were as severe as they were before (at least in some cases). The purpose of the anticlimber is to keep the force of an accident to the strongest part of the car which happens to be the steel frame. Again I say, when cars collided with one another, the brunt of the impact was kept at the lower portion of the car in question.
I honestly don't know why 1227's anticlimber is missing. Maybe Jeff H. knows, since he's more familiar with the equipment. She's going to need some cosmetic work, eventually. 659 will also get some degree of work. 1349, our open convertible, will be in the shop at the end of the month to receive necessary repairs. It is my sincerest hope that 1227's comopanions will go out on the road at some future time.
Another note: I don't believe 1227 was delivered to the BRT with anticlimbers. Anticlimbers were added sometime later.
Aside from this let me briefly address to you an issue I made about the subway car project I engaged in from an earlier post. I, in no way, have given up on the project as I explained to fellow SubTalker Thurston. If anything, I'm more determined to continue on with the project and complete it regardless of any help received. The time I wrote that post, I was having a sleepless night after being in Branford for much of the day. Personal issues also affected my thinking. A colleague made me see things from a realistic perspective. What you see is what you get. I'm ambitious and I'd like to do things from an optimistic point of view. Restoring a car to an original look might sound easy, but in essence is much harder. But we can't always get what we want. I'd buy more subway cars, fix up the entire museum line and who knows what else I might do!
Unfortunately, the time and money to spend on materials aren't there at this point. There are restrictions, as you have to make do with what you have. Anything can happen though! By engaging in this project, I have to say that I'm more appreciative of history....
Thanks,
Stef
The purpose of the anti-climber, for Constantine and others'
benefit, is to prevent cars from climbing on top of each other
in a collision, and thus crushing the unlucky passengers in
the bottom car.
1227 had two styles of anti-climber in its service career.
The earlier variety was narrow, extending perhaps 2 feet on
either side of the coupler. In the 1920s, when the poles and
trapdoor steps were removed, the anti-climbers were upgraded
to a wider type that covers about 3/4 of the end beam.
The anti-climbers were removed from 1227 quite a few years ago
as part of a rebuilding effort for one of the end platforms.
That project was not completed and the platform was re-assembled
"temporarily" so the car could carry visitors. The anti-climbers
were not re-installed, but they will be eventually.
Stef & Jeff H
Thanks for the replies! Don't get me wrong, I was not complaining, it was an observation. I have looked at #1227 so often and just all of a sudden I realized that only one end of the car had an anti-climber. The fact that those four cars still exist is a tribute to guys like you. I just wish I was closer and had better health so I could be helping you. When I lived in the city those gate cars were all that mattered to me in transit. I guess I wasn't a transit fan but a gate car fan. I sure wish one of the 900's had been saved but I am thankful that a 600, 1200, and a pair of 1300's still exist.
I will be away from the site for some days and hope I can catch up when I return.
Keep up the good work!
Karl B
Don't forget elevated car from Kings County, number 197 which is from 1888, the oldest of the BRT/BMT fleet. This car dates back to the days of steam on the els!!!! Now, if only we had a Forney....
Cheers,
Constantine
Well, there is the Forney Railroad Museum in Denver. They're in the process of moving to a new facility, and some of the museum rolling stock is being stored on a track adjacent to I-25. There's a Union Pacific 4-6-6-4 Challenger, along with a graffiti-covered passenger coach.
You said,"Don't forget elevated car from Kings County, number 197 which is from 1888, the oldest of the BRT/BMT fleet. This car dates back to the days of steam on the els!!!! Now, if only we had a Forney...."
Are there any recent pictures of 197 or either of the two 1300's? I know ther is a 30 year old picture of 659 at this site and much more recent pictures of 1227.
Karl B
Sorry, but there doesn't seem to be anything recent on 197 or the two 1300s.
Just so you know, 1362 is sitting outside the shop under a large tarp to protect if from the elements. 1349 is inside one of the barns and will be making her way to the shop at the end of the month. Maybe then, I can get a picture!!!!!
I'm going to talk to Jeff H. about looking through the Barns for those rarely seen elevated cars. I haven't seen 197 or 1349.
-Stef
If 1349 will be making her way to the shop, I hope that means for restoration. I am assuming if this is true that she will be painted the same color as 1227 and the three re-rebuilts that are in the transit museum.
1349 was one of the six cars on the "Last Lex" on Oct 13th, 1950, and if I remember correctly, had been repainted in the late 1940's in green (a very attractive color until weathered). I guess there's not much chance of that color or time period being recreated.
Good Luck, and thanks for the information
Karl B
One of our elevated car buffs will be spending an entire week in the shop with 1349. Restoration? You bet! The color of the car is unknown to me, but it could be painted to match 1227. Again, Jeff H. would know more about it.
-Stef
1349 is on Track 62, just behind the North Shore Car, which is behind 1227 and 3662.
197 is in barn 7, I think -- the same barn as 659, and, I think the bus.
Oh....this thread is still alive :)
Let's see... BU car 1349 is coming into the car shop at the
end of July. The objective is to fabricate and install the
wooden end beam. The long-term restoration plan for the car
is to depict it as it ended sevice in the 1950s, in green.
This primarily is dictated by the motor truck, which was changed
shortly before the car's retirement. There is still a lot of
mechanical work, including heavy work on the wheels and trucks,
before this car can carry passengers.
BU 659 is still in barn 4 (not 7, SteveK,....are you crazy, an
el car in Fort ConnCo?). While I have some designs on making this
car usable as a control trailer (the motors are damaged beyond
economical repair), there is a significant amount of body work
to be done. K.C. E RR #197, a trailer, is on the same track and
in about the same body condition.
Yeah, this thread is still alive.... What's the matter with that? Karl B was inquiring into the condition of each of the el cars as well as any possible pictures that might be out there.
Thank you for the info. I hope one of these days you might take the time to let me into the barns other than 1,3, and 5 to observe the equipment.
Perhaps if I'm not working on 6688 while 1349 is taking the shop space, I'll assist the gentleman working on the el car.
-Stef
That is great news, at least for me. I think those green paint jobs in the 1940's were what got me started to becoming a transit fan.
Thanks so much for making my day.
Karl B
"Now, if only we had a Forney...."
I think that CTA still has one of its old locomotives from the Lake Street L, and I think it's a Forney. They brought it (and some other L, streetcar, and bus equipment) out in Daley Plaza for a "50 Years of CTA" display a couple of years ago. It could be they borrowed it from someone else, and I don't know if it runs because it was just sitting on a flatbed in Washington Street in front of Daley Plaza.
But maybe CTA could work something out with NYCTA?
I don't know if a CTA locomotive has anything to do with NYCT, and I would probably say no. But if the locomotive is similar in design, then it might be possible for NYCT to look into displaying it in their Museum if someone's willing to go with it.
Are you sure it was a Forney? I didn't think that there were any left over here in the states. Last I heard, there were three Forneys in not so great condition up in Alsaka (probably not usable).
The question I pose here is does anyone know here on the site if there are any former NYC Forneys still running around in any location? South America comes to mind. It seems like they use any old equipment that they acquire forever down there.
Hi,
Last Wednesday I went to NYC to take photos on the subway. I observed an R32 train on the G line and at least 2 R46 trains on the E line.
Usually G trains are R46 trains and E trains are R32 trains. I am wondering why in several instances some R32s move to the G line and some R46s run on the E line.
Chaohwa
If you see one again, try and get the car numbers so I can check it against my R32 Census to see where it came from.
Thanks,
Wayne
According to my slides, that R32 G train consisted of:
3931-3930-????-????-????-????-????-????-3350-3351
3931 was Queens-bound and 3351 was Brooklyn-bound. I don't record the middle six cars.
Chaohwa
That is correct. That train was given back to the E was laid up all holiday weekend in the station at Union Tkpe on track D4.
I saw 3350 last fall at 34th St. as part of an E train. The significance is that 3350 is the first number in the R-32 series. OK, 3348 doesn't count because that's not its original number.
Thanks - those four were all previously sighted on the E line and have now been marked as G, at least until they're resighted elsewhere. They are probably all Steve's charges, from Jamaica Yard.
Wayne
If you see R-32s on the G line, they are from the Jamaica Fleet only.
What I find so unusual about the G train is that the R32's are four car trainsets and when the train is made up in the yard, it is usually six cars. Amazing.
I think you have your 'R's and 'G's mixed up. Gs are usually made up of R-46s. They are ususlly in 4 car consists. In fact there are 181 ABBA units, 13 AA units and 1 AB unit. The Gs are usually a 4-car piece with a 2 car piece. If we have a shortage of 2 car pieces, we use 10 R-32s in stead. R-32s are always 2 car units.
The R32's are married pairs.
The R46's normally on the G are four car sets except for some of them which are two car sets. See the R46 Roster for details.
And the light-blue "E" boxes next to the reported numbers bear that fact out.
Wayne
R46 G trains normally run 6 cars: a 4 car set and a 2 car set of A cars. Facing Smith 9 St. it is AAABBA. If I remember correctly, there are only 2 sets of spare AA cars, sooooo, sometimes they are short. Because a G motorman in non OPTO service is disciplined to make 8 car stops, it would be confusing and a mistake possible if he had a standard R46 of ABBAABBA. So with car shortages an R32 will automatically tell him to stop at the 10 and the conductor can point to his board. As far as the E: yes there are varying numbers of R46 cars present. Car assignments should not be viewed by subtalkers as etched in stone. Any car class can be on a given line from the same yard supplying the equipment. You will sometimes see an R32 on the R for example. This time of year with air conditioning straining the cars to the max, deviations from car assignments are probable. If the R needs a train at X o'clock and no R46 is availiable, an R32 will be assigned. If the E needs a train at Y o'clock and an R32 is not availiable, then an R46 will be assigned.
That's part of what makes maintaining my R32 Census sheet so much fun, changing the colored cells from this line to that line and updating the cell comment regarding the date of change
Wayne
I'm just back from a long weekend in Montreal. It was "only" 90 degrees there! I took a number of pictures of the Metro, and when they're back I'll scan them and send them to Dave to post. A few quick observations about the system:
750 V/3rd rail traction, with the famous "steel wheel plus rubber tire" running.
Four lines, identified simultaneously by color codes, numbers, and terminal.
NO AIR CONDITIONING! (True, most days in Montreal are not scortching. But when it's hot... it's hot!)
The stations are clean, bright, and spacious.
Trains are OPTO, with ATO.
The fare is C$1.90 (about US$1.35). A one-day pass is available for C$5 (US$3.5) and three-day pass for C$12 (US$8.40).
Speed is good, including uphill. The 4-minute run from Berri-UQAM to Ille St. Helene is especially fun.
I found the system's strategy for the "emergency cord" interesting. The sign says that if you pull it (it's actually a red T-handle) when the train is stopped in a station, it will stay there. If you pull it when the train is in motion, it will continue on to the next station, then stay there. That's a great way to keep trains from stalling BIE between stations -- and possibly increasing emergency aide response time. I wonder if NYC has thought of that?
Is the Montreal Metro automated in any way? From the last time I was there (many years ago) I don't think it is. This would seem to imply one of two things:
- The train is automated and knows not to stop until the next station
- The T/O receives indication that the cord is pulled and stops & stays at the next station.
Do you have any idea which one it is?
The NYCT emergency brake application is immediate when the cord is pulled.
It's interesting that Montreal's Metro has no A/C but Toronto's does.
--Mark
London has the same system on all lines, so there is no need for ATO in order for this to work. Any fellow London experts know how the system is works here precisely, and whether it even applies to 1962 Northern Line stock?
Question regarding the original post:
I've seen contributors mention "BIE" when referring to an unscheduled stop. May I ask, just what do those letters stand for?
Thanks!
BIE = Brakes In Emergency
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember that long run when heading out to Expo 67; if I recall I counted 93 fluorescent lights between the two stations. I would imagine there must be second-generation rolling stock on the Metro now. One feature I remember in particular is the bell-like "ding" sound right after the doors closed. London's District Line trains did the same thing in 1978.
The heat in Montreal's Metro has been a long-standing problem. It wasn't long before some of the door windows were replaced with screens of stiff wire mesh to provide some degree of ventilation.
I visited Montreal 5 years ago and the rolling stock was a combination of original equipment (1966-67 vintage) plus some from 1978-79. It was hard to tell them apart, as I recall.
When I was there it was quite hot but the stations seemed cool, perhaps because they are so deep plus the "piston" action of trains travelling through tunnels which creates breezes. The cars, on the other hand, did not fare as well, and were uncomfortably warm. The friction of rubber tires doesn't help this situation at all.
Last week, I was on the BMT N train heading for Manhattan, at
18th Avenue, the train ahead of me had braking troubles, and caused
my train to be stalled at 20th Avenue. I was surprised that they used
the Sea Beach Express Tracks, by running the Manhattan-bound N trains
and the rerouted Manhattan-bound B trains like the old NX train in
1967. I thought the Express tracks are still being signaled at are
not ready yet. I'm surprised they were ready for emergency express
service. If they ran the B and N as the old NX, where did they switch
over to the express tracks?
James S. Li
Without a track map in front of me, I can't say for sure, but the express tracks merge with the local tracks before the tunnel portal at 4th Ave. and before 86th St. on the other end. Chances are there are crossover switches along the line as well.
As for signalling, trains running express on the Sea Beach operate in an absolute block, meaning only one train at a time along the entire nonstop stretch.
I have some 100 copies of the first PATH timetable to WTC, PATH service change to WTC, and a small PATH booklet about the new WTC station to give away. All I ask for is $1.00 to cover postage and the medium size envelope I will use for mailing to any addressee on sub-talk.
My address is
Philip Hom
65 Dorothy Lane
Stafford, VA 22554
Thanks
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I almost forgot.... One set per sub-talk member...
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Last week I was the IRT Penn Station and it was hot. I know it is baking right now. What is the hottest station in your opinion?
Of the 4 stations I was in today, it felt like Union Sq. was the hottest. Here's what the news is saying:
New York City is even hotter underground.
The New York Post says 100-degree weather is turning subway stations into underground furnaces. Some of the busiest stations are hotter than it is outside. Yesterday felt like 112 degrees when the humidity and the temperature were taken together. But the Post says subway riders felt 125-degree heat on the Number Seven train platform at the Fifth Avenue station. The heat index had the Union Square station at 117 degrees -- even with ceiling fans.
The platform for the One and Nine trains at the Times Square station was 115 degrees on the heat index. Grand Central station was a cool 110 degrees. And it could get worse today. Subway stations will be more crowded than they were yesterday because people are going back to work after the long holiday weekend and there will be more trains.
From experience, I will say the absolute worst is South Ferry. Not only is it hot, but they actually INCREASE the ambient humidity with those water sprayers they use to lubricate the rails on the loop.
A station that is just plain hot is 168st on the 1/9. Basically, it's like an ezbake oven.
-Hank
I'll second the motion for 168th and Bway on the 1/9. I was on a Bronx-bound 1 yesterday, when the doors opened at 168, it was almost as though the heat from the station attacked those of inside the train and sucked the cool air out of the train in less than 2 seconds.
West 4th Street lower level (B/D/F/Q) is absolutely oppressive in the summer. It's a full THREE STORIES underground separated by a mezzanine, the A/C/E tracks and another mezzanine.
5th Avenue/53rd lower level (Queens-bound) has only one track and is below the Manhattan-bound/Downtown tracks which are already at the bottom of a very long escalator.
72nd/Broadway is very cramped, what with no mezzanine and extremely narrow stairways. There's no place for the hot air to go-except on us!
Conversely, Lexington/60th is usually very comfortable, as it was this past Sunday night. The wind must blow through the river tunnel, with help from the moving trains.
Monday, July 5th The Electric Railroaders Association finished its three day convention in Philadelphia with a fantrip on the Market-Frankford line which was also a farewell trip to the almond joy cars which have been in service on this line since 1960. With almost enough new cars to make all service it appears that their retirement is immenent. there are only five sets of these cars in rush hour service. It doesn't appear likely that these cars will survive the summer.
To add, The fantrip consisted of cars:
702-701,811-812,711-712. Car 702 was the lead car in both directions (We looped at Bridge Street, Frankford Terminal)
with the retirement of the "Almond Joys", yet another chapter in philadelphia's rail history comes to a close...i can remember riding the "market Frankford" line many times while railfanning in Philadelphia. i always enjoyed riding these cars, as they sounded similar to the NYCTAs R-32 fleet. the early 1990s was a great time to railfan in Philadelphia; there was a lot of variety to be found there.from the aformentioned Almond Joys, to the citys famed PCC fleet there were a lot of photographic opportunities. lets not forget the "Heavy Rail" division which had ex Reading "Blueliners" and the ex P.R.R. "Pioneer 3s". also lets not forget the famous Bullets and the last "Stratford Car",#162 running out their last days on the "Norristown High Speed Line".fortunatly, their was a group which saw fit to sponsor several trips on most of these classes of equipment, the Philadelphia Chapter of the N.R.H.S. including several farewell trips. the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association also sponsored several trips as well. sadly, now all of this equipment is now retired, but the memories live on! if you are interested in seeing some of the photos from this interesting time in history, you are welcome to see the next Urban Transit Club meeting, which will be on July 24th, 1999 at the Masonic Hall,on west 23rd Street,as i will be doing the show!!! hope to see you all there!!!
with the retirement of the "Almond Joys", yet another chapter in philadelphia's rail history comes to a close...i can remember riding the "market Frankford" line many times while railfanning in Philadelphia. i always enjoyed riding these cars, as they sounded similar to the NYCTAs R-32 fleet. the early 1990s was a great time to railfan in Philadelphia; there was a lot of variety to be found there.from the aformentioned Almond Joys, to the citys famed PCC fleet there were a lot of photographic opportunities. lets not forget the "Heavy Rail" division which had ex Reading "Blueliners" and the ex P.R.R. "Pioneer 3s". also lets not forget the famous Bullets and the last "Stratford Car",#162 running out their last days on the "Norristown High Speed Line".fortunatly, their was a group which saw fit to sponsor several trips on most of these classes of equipment, the Philadelphia Chapter of the N.R.H.S. including several farewell trips. the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association also sponsored several trips as well. sadly, now all of this equipment is now retired, but the memories live on! if you are interested in seeing some of the photos from this interesting time in history, you are welcome to see the next Urban Transit Club meeting, which will be on July 24th, 1999 at the Masonic Hall,on west 23rd Street,as i will be doing the show!!! hope to see you all there!!!
I heard something about GCT. Someone said that they used water pumped in from the east river circulate it through pipes located in the station then use fans to blow the cool air around. It's like A/C but without the freon. Does anyone know about this? If the NYCTA can do this many people would sure be happy.
What they might have been referring to is a "chilled water" system that used East River water for cooling (though I'd think that would be a waste) Chilled water system *do* use freon. Basically, you have your condenser in water, and your evaporator in water. The water from the condener hoes to whatever you use as a heat sink (normally a cooling tower), the water from the evap goes to pipeing around the area that attaches to radiators, much like a conventional hot water heating system does. That's what those "chilled water supply" and "chilled water return" pipes you see in Penn station are for. It's a nice system, in that you get air conditioning everywhere, without circulating Freon (A difficult thing to do, never mind the CFC issues). The freon only circulates between the evaporator, and the condenser (the water and freon are physically seperate from each other). The system is much like a conventional A/C, only water is used for cooling, not air.
I doubt that, without the assistance of a mechanical cooling system, the East river water is cool enough to do much. Anyway, even if it were close - stick in the A/C into the system, and get even better results. Also realize that circulating (fairly) dirty water in piping everywhere is kind of a no-no...
I looked it up, and apparently the average surface temp. of water off the Battery in August is 74 degrees. Yup, that is probably a little too warm to help much, though in a 100 degree station (not unrealistic) could probably be cooled to 90 or so using such a system. That is a start, but would probably not be the sort of standard we should hope for! (Also, it would take out very little humidity).
On the other hand, the temperature of the water a few meters down is probably a lot lower. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the temp. of the water is deep in the east river. However, there are systems that use lake water to cool buildings - it can be done. It saves a huge amount of energy - air conditioning uses tons and tons of electricity. On the other hand, warming up the water can have ecological side effects which are bad.
I think you can also save a lot of energy using river (or whatever) water to cool the condenser. It takes a lot less energy to compress 70 degree freon than it takes to compress 100 degree freon. So maybe that is what they are doing.
Sorry to go off topic! I'm just glad to read that maybe there will, someday, be some sort of AC in NY subway stations! Normally, I think its basically a waste of energy, but not in this case. As a side note, AC is a technology that may and should change a LOT in the next few years, leading to potentially HUGE energy savings.
Certainly no more off topic than discussing Nathan's cheese fries.
This system was used briefly at Brooklyn Bridge before the
dual contracts, using East River water to provide the cooling.
I never heard of the system in use at either of the Grand Central
subway stations.
Jeff, where's my Signal Control Line Drawings?
A mechanical cooling system using chilled water and fans is being installed in the Grand Central IRT station as part of its' renovation.
The pipes are in place at the roof. Since the work is so far behind schedule, I don't think it will help any one this year.
Hello,
I'd like to know from those who have been to the Smith and 9th street station, how long does it take to go from the station down to the ground?
- Jose
Do you mean by taking the train, walking down the stairs, or.... ???
I think Jose means that how much time it takes to walk from the platform to the street.
Although I stay on the Smith-9 Streets platform, I never go down to the streets. The Smith-9 Streets station is a great place to take pictures!
Chaohwa
Once again I'm upstaged by Todd's quick wit and sense of humor. I can't tell you about the stairs but if you jump, it'll take you 3.31 seconds give or take a few hundreths.
Don't forget to factor in the wind. On a windy day it may take almost second longer to hit the grount. Also, should you land in a truck that goes all the way to Pittsburg, would the additional time count?
The wind would only affect the time if there was an updraft. Adding a horizontal vector does not reduce the vertical vector. The object still falls in accordance with the formula distance=(1/2)g times the square of the time, adjusted for air resistance. I'm assuming the slight increase in total velocity from falling at an angle in a wind would not materially increase the air resistance over the resistance caused by fall straight down.
Even stepping off the platform edge will get you to the ground slightly faster. If you really are jumping, however, you must factor your originally downward velocity into the acceleration equations.
By the stairs, or the QUICK way?
By the stairs, about 3-5 minutes, if you use the escalator. I'm sure someone COULD make it down all the way in under a minute, but they'd be pretty out of breath. Race you any time.
Rolling down the stairs is an option, but could be quite painful.
Then, there's the QUICK way. That depends on how aerodynamic you are. :)
-Hank (tongue planted firmly)
I'll have to try racing down the steps at Smith-9th sometime. Living a mile above sea level, your body adjusts to the lower oxygen level, so when you find yourself at sea level, you don't get winded.
You could also do what some guy did at the Port Authority Bus Terminal. There is, or was, an escalator at the southwest corner from the upper bus level to what I'll call the mezzanine; it's one flight up from the main concourse. Anyway, we had just gotten off our bus one Saturday morning and were headed for the subway when this guy jumped in front of me on that escalator, grabbed hold of the handrail, and proceeded to slide HEAD FIRST all the way down to the bottom. It took him no more than five seconds. I'd like to see Mary Poppins try that!
On the other hand, if you'd like to try doing a high dive/jackknife/cannon ball/belly flop (take your pick) into the Gowanus Canal...
And dissolve. You can't swim in that sesspool!
Isnt the Gowanus Canal making a come back? Arent small fishes supposed to enter the water?
It certainly can't be any worse than the Cuyahoga River in 1970. The situation there was so bad it actually caught on fire! If that river (and Lake Erie, for that matter) can clean up, anything is possible.
Hello,
Will there be any new Diesel Trains built for Amtrak's new ACELA service, assumed containing a hybrid engine like that of the P-32?
- Jose
I have not heard of any upgrade outside the NEC for high speed diesel ACELA service, nor have any reports of diesel locomotive order (in X2200 South and Disel Era Magazine) for such
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Not much happening in the way of high speed diesel right now. PA wants to buy 110 mph diesel multiple units for Harrisburg - Philly, but they are on hold now. Last I heard, they are trying to find another entity to add on to the order and spread out the development costs. The FRA and Bombardier or some other company is trying to design a "high speed" (prob. 110 mph) diesel train, but this will be years in the making if it ever gets built.
My understanding is that the Turbotrains are being rebuilt, funded in part by the state of New York, for 110mph service that will carry the Acela name between NYP, Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo.
And I think the original design speed for the RTL II turbotrain was 130mph.
-Hank
Can someone tell me why is PA ordering diesel locomotives when they have perfectly good overhead catenary on Philly - Harrisburg?! Last I heard (from an Amtrak station employee at Harrisburg), the "Keystone" service was getting some of the older electric locomotives. I assumed they would be available once the Acela trainsets began running.
The older electric locos are the E60's, and they have been AMTRAK'S answer to the R16 all their life! The AEM7's will be needed on Boston service once it is electrified. According to the July Railpace, it is likely AEM7 engines will be doubleheaded when they go to Boston.
I've heard different things about whether the Keystone line will get 'lectrics. But, I think they would generally not be able to go 110 for any distance on that line without tilting, whether diesel or electric. So they will need new trains if they want to go that fast. Then it is an electric vs. diesel choice. I believe the logic is, "we'll run this service and it will be real sucessful and people will want us to have these trains on other lines in the state, none of which are electrified."
Seems like a bit of a stretch, but that's what they decided. One of the big drawbacks is there cannot be service to Surburban or Market East with diesels.
Does this mean that there will be engines on either end?
I wonder if that's because they have TOO MANY AEM-7s.
And what about those E60s? Will they still be used in electrified territory on long-hauls, i.e. Silver Service trains?
Not one on each end, but 2 in the front working doubleheaded. Say so long to the E60 in passenger service. They are simply unreliable.
So then I guess those two AEM-7s will do the work that one E-60 currently does. Will this new AEM-7 setup double its horsepower?
I have noticed that recently the CTA has placed Pepsi Machines in a large number of it's L stations.
My question would be with the concession stands. Why don't they put any in the downtown Subway and Loop Stations??? They do exsists at Addison (Wrigley Field) on the Red Line and Forest Park on the Blue Line.
Both of these exsist before the turnstiles. They should put one right in the middle of the Red Line Platform downtown at Washington & State.
Also on the Blue Line and in some Loop Stations. My question would be why would they pick Forest Park over downtown Chicago and the busiest stations in the system. ( 95th and Dan Ryan Being the busiest followed by Washington & State)
What do you think?
BJ
There are concessions at some of the downtown Blue Line stations in Dearborn Street (the entrances by Daley Center and the First National Bank come to mind) as well as in buildings that you pass through to get on trains (Merchandise Mart, Thompson Center, First National Bank, etc.). The last time I was in Jackson station on the Blue, it looked like they were getting a space ready for a concessionaire. Also, I think there IS a concession stand in at least one of the entrances to the Washington stop on the Red Line, but I don't recall which one.
That said, there are three logical reasons I can think of for not having (more) concessions in downtown stations, in order of plausibility:
1) Space. Especially with the Loop L stops, there may not be enough room for a concession stand. This is especially true of Adams/Wabash and Quincy/Wells stations!
2) While there may not be nearby grocery or drug stores at outlying stations, there are Walgreens, Oscos, and various lobby concession stands downtown. Therefore, the need for a concession stand may be greater at outlying stops.
3) There may be more demand to buy coffee, newspapers, muffins, and such when people are commencing their morning commute than when they're heading home.
As a side note, there WAS a concession booth on the platform at Washington Red Line. It was on the north platform between Randolph and Lake, which at the time was used solely for Howard-bound trains and which now is a stop in both directions for changing to the Loop L.
Wow! I didn't expect to see this many responses under my post...even though it looks like nothing compared to posts related to the heat, but I can definitely understand that (It's 104 degrees right now at 6:00 PM in Central/West NJ). Anyway, I just want to thank you all for the nice welcome, and thanks for the advice...I'll look into all of them. Also, that bush terminal trip seems cool too, BMTman. Thanks again, guys!
I went to the Utica Avenue IND station at about 10am this morning. After walking five blocks through the heat, and walking downstairs, I started to feel very dizzy and nauseous. I went to walk back upstairs to get help, and had to stop halfway up the stairs.
After I had stood there trying to catch my breath and collect my faculties for about 30 seconds, who should start to come down the stairs but a police officer! Help, right? WRONG!!! As he walked past me I croaked, "Excuse me, officer?" He turns around and looks at me...I told him I was really feeling sick and I thought I might need medical attention. You know what his response was???
"Well walk back upstairs to the ticket booth they'll help you!"
When I told him I felt too dizzy and sick to walk any further, his response was, "I have to catch my train the ticket agent can help you!"
He then proceeds to run downstairs and onto a train!
Luckily, the ticket agent was more helpful than the police officer...he called an ambulance, which came within 10 minutes. I just got home from the emergency room, and luckily I am OK.
I just cannot believe the cop's attitude! I wish I had been in enough posession of my wits to get his badge number...but c'est la vie.
Has anyone else ever heard of this kind of an incident in the subway?
I haven't heard anything in particular about the subway but lets put it this way... you just found out the hard way that not all NYC cops are New York's Finest.
Sorry to hear about your incident, Barry. Unfortunately, the Police Academy doesn't teach future cops the basics of common courtesy -- ususally it is supposed to be taught at home.
Glad everthing turned out okay so we can continue to enjoy your company in SubTalk.
Doug aka BMTman
At least he wasn't armed with a plunger.
I was waiting for a train at Union Square when I saw something I'll remember for the rest of my life. I was alone on the platform except for a cop who tossed his cigarette out onto the tracks. A huge rat(and they're all huge aren't they?) left an orange peel and took the cigarette butt in his mouth(still lit) and walked off under the platform with it. It was too funny and there was nobody around to share it with. This must have happened in the early seventies because those big, yellow posters for "HAIR" were still all over every subway and el station that I had an occassion to use.
I'll drink to that!!! I have a better story. One time while walking the New York City subway in the tunnels around Van Wyck Blvd while cutting in the Archer Avenue Extension, I watched a huge rat hand crank a switch machine. He even restored the motor cutout with a key.
I'll bet that rat could operate a train.
In the mid sixties i was a student in George Westinghouse tech h.s.in the electrical instalation class when we had some recruters from the ta,after the job pitch they got into stories they had done on the job well they told us one of the helpers crawled through a small tunnel to some junction boxes in a small room like place,he got halfway through when his light caught many reflections of red eyes,he backed out quickly the crew put plywood across the hole called an extermanitor, later after the gas did it's work they had pulled out about 3 dozen rats....BIG rats, and we saw the photo to back it up this was i think on the 14 th st carnasie subway line. later Karl M
Not very good recruiters!
Oh, come now. Believe that and you'll have a bridge to sell us next. (Or, perhaps a Rudy doll.)
I'd say you probably met my son-in-law but he works PMs
Don't think much of your son-in-law, do you?
Other than the fact that he makes really beautiful kids - no I don't!!!
I'm glad everything turned out alright. But also I must say "Welcome to the real world." In case you havent noticed, unfortunately, there is a report on the news at least every other night on police misconduct. Maybe if there was more of a public outcry and less denial regarding the police misconduct, some changes might be made.
How hot you ask? Well, the subways are gonna be soooo hot that you can make a Western Omelette on the slant end of an R-40.....with enough extras to feed a family of five!! NOW THAT'S HOT! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Once and for all, ARE PASSANGERS ALLOWED TO RIDE THE NUMBER 6 TO CITY HALL STATION WHEN IT IS OUT OF SERVICE? I have been on six trains, and the motormen won't let me do it. I also heard a rumor that you're allowed to get out at the station. If this is true, the TA better inform its motermen, or women, of the rule.
You were, until Rudy Paranoia decided that it might be awfully inviting for terrorists. He also put a stop to the museum's restoration of the station.
-Hank
NYC People should vote rudy for Senate and get revenge on us upstaters who have been spared his stupidity so far
I don't see how anyone OUTSIDE the city could object to Rudy. He cut the New York City school budget to the lowest per capita spending, freeing up state tax dollars to be spent elsewhere. In NYC, government employment has been going down despite a booming economy. Everywhere else in the state, local government employment is booming -- it is going up upstate despite a stagnating economy. He should have, as his campaing slogan, "public services and pay increases for the deserving, efficiency and sacrifices for the undeserving." He delivered on the hard part, and Pataki delivered on the easy part.
The station is right underneath City Hall and with the trial of the terrorists going on all we need is some wacko to brind maybe a small box of semtex and there goes the city government, the 6 line loop, city hall pak and maybe a loaded train at Brooklyn Bridge
The rule about riding around has changed recently by decree of the Mayor's office but you were never supposed to be let out at the platform without TA escort.
Passengers are not allowed to ride the 6 train thru City Hall Station for 2 reasons. #1 the manual of rules and regulations for dep of subways states passengers are not allowed to ride trains into relay areas. The section of track thru the abandoned City Hall Station is a non revenue section(relay area). #2 for a time riders were allowed to ride aboard #6 trains relaying thru City Hall till an incident with a pair of teenagers. Either they were playing between cars or walking the tracks, one teen was killed....
No, that happened AFTER Mayor McCheese had his fit of paranoia. The track through the City Hall station was designated as revenue service trackage about 3 years ago, and at that time, you could go around the loop. Then our mayor decided it was a security risk to allow access to an area directly beneath City Hall, thinking someone might want to blow him up, so passengers were banned from riding through the station, and the Museum plans for the station were put on an indefinite hold.
-Hank
I wonder how paranoid Mark Green is.
He just wants his and his wife's shirts laudered for the same price. A noble goal.
-Hank
His ego is to large to fit through the LOOP at CIty Hall! lets see Brooklyn Bridge fits pretty nicely to the east of City hall & City HAll station on the N & R to the west. Who's to say some nut job wouldn't blow both of these stations simultaneously to attack city hall?
You know, in Philadelphia, you can walk right through the courtyard of City Hall. You can probably bike through! I think you can walk right into the building - maybe you have to go through a metal detector. Actually, I highly recommend it - very interesting architechture. And my highest rating goes to the free ride to the top of City Hall Tower - it is beautiful up there. Anyways, you can stroll all around the place. Also, no concrete barriers or fences around the building. And there are all sorts of Subway tunnels underneath. Yet somehow Mayor Rendell is able to work - despite the lack of security he has around him - and function very well. Come to think of it, a lot of this is true in Chicago, too. I guess Giuliani really is in his own little world!
Rendell for President!
"Come to think of it, a lot of this is true in Chicago, too."
Yep. You don't need to go through metal detectors or even show an ID card to get into the City/County Building, and it is connected by the Pedway tunnels to the Daley Center to the east and the Thompson (State of Illinois) Building to the north. Mind you, you DO need to either go through a detector or show a special ID to go beyond the lobby of the Daley Center, but then that's the civil courthouse, and a lot of domestic relations cases (read: nasty, potentially violent, divorce and custody disputes) are heard there.
Which leads to my question, having never been to City Hall in New York City: are there any courtrooms in City Hall? That may explain the metal detectors (though not the need to shut off access to City Hall station).
And a rhetorical question for all the Guiliani-bashers: is it really SO paranoid to prepare for terrorist bombing when:
1) someone blew up the World Trade Center?
2) the feds caught another group planning to blow up public buildings in NYC, including, IIRC, City Hall?
3) one of the New York magazines did a cover story on how many New Yorkers expect that their city WILL eventually be the target of a terrorist using biological or chemical weapons?
[Which leads to my question, having never been to City Hall in New York City: are there any courtrooms in City Hall?
That may explain the metal detectors (though not the need to shut off access to City Hall station).]
Not for many decades, if ever.
City Hall is a small building, used mostly for ceremonial purposes. If it were to be obliterated from the face of the earth, we would lose a lot of history, but there would be little to no disruption to city government or anything else. What makes Il Duce's "preparations" so arrogant and paranoid is that he assumes the terrorists would come after *him*. It's the financial district that they'd be interested in-
Say you're a terrorist- would you rather blow up
a.) the center of international capitalism
b.) Giuliani
In his warped mind, this choice is a toss up. To boot, the people most upset w/ Giuliani are here in the city and don't have much record of terrorism.
The result is we lose one of the best railfan rides in the city and the Transit Museum branch.
I wonder- has the mayor considered the political consequences of alienating the railfan vote? :)
Philosophically, I have much more of a problem with barricading off city hall, making it impossible for citizens to have access to their place of government, and removing a traditional "forum" (the steps) from the public. Or has this changed in the last few months?
By the way, I do think it is stupid that the embassy bombing suspects were brought to New York. Why was that necessary? Are they still there?
Ooops, I should have said that I thought it was stupid that the embassy bombing suspects were brought to New York City as opposed to, say, somewhere in the boonies. I am not trying to start a flame war over international politics! :)
If you practiced in NYC, you would know that no court sits in City Hall. The City Hall annex, more commonly known as the Tweed Courthouse, still has one or more courtrooms, but it/they is/are used exclusively for filming TV shows and movies.
As for the need to shut off access to City Hall Station, someone obviously thinks that there is a risk of a passenger smuggling a bomb in there. Is that SO paranoid? Beats me. It depends on the intelligence reports you are reading. Since you and I don't read them, we can only guess HOW paranoid he is.
So, vote for Rudy for Senate over Hillary. As paranoid as he is, he'll fit right in.
The tracks are almost complete. Signal heads are installed, but without number plates. The track equipment (stop arms) are just being installed. It looks like they will finish on time, if not before.
Will this repair job allow J/M trains to travel over the bridge at higher speeds?
When is the work on the Willy B. supposed to be done? When will subway service resume?
Chuck Greene
Didn't notice any 3rd rail yet last weekend.
I just saw this on the Fox 5 news (10:23pm) - all the lights are out from 155th Street on north, river to river in Manhattan. This would be the Washington Heights, Fort Washington and Inwood neighborhoods.
Are the A, C and #1 trains affected as well, I wonder.
Let's hope cool heads prevail.
Also - Williamsburg in Brooklyn is under a power alert - lights are on but the power grid is showing signs of strain.
Wayne
All of eastern Monmouth County, NJ was out from about 4 PM until about 5:30 PM tonight - not sure if NJT was affected since I was at my friendly physician's office and unable to head for the tracks. Anybody know?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I heard that all IND and IRT trains are indeed turning around at 168th Street due to the power problem.
I always wonder why they can't just prepare in advance. (I know, I know.. .I'm sure they do.) Power at my house in Jersey City went off on the 4th of July 1996 for about 12 hours and it went off again on the 4th of July 1997. It didn't happen in 1998 and it hasn't happened yet this year. But by the way, if it does, SubTalk will be down :-)
-Dave
As I understand it, the trains themselves are unaffected, as are the signals, so operationaly, there's no problems. The stations, on the other hand, are on the neighborhood grid, so a neighborhood outage would cut the power to the station, and thus the station lighting and booth equipment, including the turnstiles.
-Hank
I arrived at the GW Bridge Bus station last night at 815-ish last night and headed downstairs for what should have been an easy trip downtown. Station was fully lit and a friendly gendarme pointed me towards a shuttle bus. What he should have also said was to take any bus and use my Metrocard to transfer to the subway at 168.
Here's what I experienced this morning:
All A trains terminated at 125th St. The C train was terminated at 145th St. The D train ran normal, except it made all local stops in the Bronx and Manhattan (yikes!). I never saw a single B train, so I must assume that it was diverted away from upper Manhattan along 63rd. St.
They also ran shuttle busses along the A line from 145th to 207th. One can only imagine how hellish that ride must've been.
Perhaps the MTA could figure out some way to switch the lights/turnstyle electrical connections from the the local Con-Ed grid to the third-rail of the tracks. If this could've been done the trains could probably run normally.
There are 2 problems with that. First, you're robbing the trains of their power source. Second, 'normal' current is 120vAC, 60Hz. Third Rail is 600vDC. The amperage is also way off. Incoming current from the pole to your home is 2-phase 240vAC; that is, there are two 120v lines, one pulsing +-+-+, the other pulsing -+-+-. They are split at the breaker box into 2 separate lines of 120v each. A normal line (say, 4 outlets) is a 15 amp line, a standard airconditioner plugs into an outlet (one you could use for a lamp as well) that is usually a 20 amp single circuit. Heavy-duty air conditioners use 2 phase, 30 amp power, and have special outlets that cannot be used for anything else.
So, to convert the 600vDC third rail power to run the 120/240vAC 'hotel power' you need a variety of heat producing inverters, and a completely seperate power circuit, hooked to a relay box that would automatically switch from ConEd power to the backup (which is how buildings with backup generators do it) but at that point, you're robbing the traction power system to run stations. This has the result of reducing train speeds, and could cause other problems.
-Hank
Wow, I didn't realize it was so difficult. I have often seen transit workers plug emergency lights right into the third rail in areas that need to be lit for trackwork.
IIRC, about 5 years ago I remember reading an article in the then NY Newsday about how many subway tunnel lighting systems were directly connected to the third-rail power. They commented that the entire 4th Ave local is (or was, this was a few years back) had its tunnel lights powered by the third rail. The author of this article seemed to suggest a disaster if something caused the loss of the third-rail power, which would leave completely dark tunnels.
Oh, well....it was an idea.
Question -- did the service shut down in Washington Heights strand the fleet in the 207th and 240th St yards, trashing rush hour service this morning?
F train service was certainly trashed this evening. I guess we now know what kind of service F riders could expect if the Rutgers tunnel were lost -- one train every 10 minutes. It was jammed.
There's no A north of 145th Street. They probably have third-rail power up to 207th Street, but the station lights were no doubt affected. That's a good question - was the entire Shoppe out of commission?
All but 6,000 or so customers are back on-line, with those without power all in the Inwood section. This was as of 11:05PM.
Wayne
They do. But they use DC bulbs (I have not yet asked my father the difference) wired in a series of 5 (each bulb being 120 watts)
-Hank
Are you sure there is a difference for incandescent bulbs?
OTOH, I think fluorescent lights have to be AC. I don't think anything else in a station that is on all the time would have to be fed AC, but it would still demand a lot of electronics to convert 600 VDC for use in a station.
It was not a problem with third rail power that we had on the Broadway line, it was an A/C power failure affecting signals. There was a dip in Con Ed power at 0630 Tuesday morning. All signals went to danger from 207th Street to Dykman Street on 1 track and from 191 to 207th Street on 4 track (1/9 lines). We had to flag trains through the area until 1000. I don't know the specifics of the situation through the day Tuesday, but Wednesday night, 1/9 trains were being turned south at 96th Street and 137. Eventually signals were beginning to come back north of 137. There was an absolute block, north and southbound from 215 to 145. Service out of Van Cortland was somewhat back to normal around 0800. This lasted until about 0700. Service needless to say was very spotty. This is why Times Square tower was taking selected 2 and 3 trains and sending them ariound the ferry. We had to have some service down there.
Oh yes, one other thing, while third rail pwer was not affected (at least at night it wasn't) lights in stations and elevators at 168, 181 and 191 were affected by the power failure.
Yes, the A, 1 and 9 trains were indeed affected. Also, there was no "A" train service between Rockaway Blvd. and the Rockaways on Monday night (July 5th) because of the power failure in Broad Channel and Howard Beach. Eventually, the MTA provided shuttle bus service between Rockaway Blvd. and Beach 98th St.-Playland. At that point you would have to change for the "S" Rockaway Shuttle which was running between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park only.
I also heard Tuesday morning (July 6th) that the "N" train was not running between 57th Street and Queensboro Plaza (Courtesy of Fox's Good Morning New York).
as of 4:30am : A train out from 168 to 207. 1 express from 137 to Dyckman. SOURCE: WCBS880/Shadow Traffic. Bus is being provided for the A train. WIlliamsburg and L I City are next. The problem in Washington heights is burned out feeder cables. Williamsburg and L I City cables are at capacity. Washington Heights is out "River to River".
My own power was off 3 hours yesterday due to blown transformer.
UPDATE as of 7:28am SOURCE: WCBS880.
A: no trains 125 to 207- free bus.
1/9: not stopping at 168,181,191
B: runs on N/R to 57/7th
C: runs to Bedford Park on D Line
D: Local in Manhattan NORTH of 59/ COlumbus Circle.
Newark Penn running on back up generator- POSSIBLE train problem may occur, but as of 7am no PATH, NJT problems(Source; News12 NJ)
The problem with the trains is as Hank said, stations.Here is what I know and will divulge:
Some stations have some emergency lights on the platforms-usually good for 1-2 hours. Turnstiles, booth- Battery back up for the computer lasts about 24 hours for memory retention ONLY. Booths are dark and no power. and yes- the communications system in the booth- fire system and emergency system have battery backup and yes- when electric power fails an alarm is automatically sent to command center.
While I am not on the scene, Transit has extra help at the scene.
So if I understand correctly, trains can run through a blacked-out area but can't stop at affected stations?
Well, they can, but they shouldn't and won't.
-Hank
But if the 1/9 is running through without stopping between 155th and Dykman, then they are.
I'm guessing this began today only after daylight, when the 1/9 stops from Dykman north have solar illumination.
Why are they running the B on the Broadway line? Why should Brooklynites suffer because of a power failure in Upper Manhattan? The simpler thing to do would be to divert the B to 21 St/Queensbridge. Then service south of Rockerfeller Center would be perfectly normal.
The B was stopping at DeKalb, so Manhattan-bound riders could transfer to the D or Q. That probably minimized any inconvenience.
Was the B running express along Broadway? Perhaps it's a harbinger of things to come; namely, a revival of the T. Just a thought...
Because of the delays and switching going on in northern Manhattan causing a ripple effect on the rest of the lines that feed in there.
-Hank
I got news for you. When I was riding the "Q" to 21 St., Queensbridge, the "B" was also running there via Sixth Avenue. But the weird thing is that all of the "B" trains that I saw while riding from 21 St to W. 4 St (4 in all) were all marked 57 St./7 Ave.
UPDATE 2:18PM WCBS880-
Subway changes still as posted earlier. Newark Penn- no train problems as of 2:18 but power is back out for waiting rooms(track power is on.)Generators working. Newark PD and NJT Transit Police are directing traffic and staffing mobile command center near Newark Penn.
Well I know I am late on this topic but here is what I Experanced Tuesday working the No.1 Line.
At 7:00AM the day started out with Signal Problems between 207 Street to North of 191 Street. Downtown No.1 Trains were backed up to 231 Street. Then I finally went down to road at 8:49AM. As I got to 96 street at 11AM there was a A/C Power failure from 181 Street to 225 Street and a Indication that the Broadway Bridge was up. There was no service from 168 Street to 242 Street. Trains were being turned at 96,137,168 Streets. On my first time I got turned at 137 Street. Then as I walked throw the cars I realize I had 5 Steaming hot cars. So I left back to go South. Then back uptown and I was turned at 96 Street . Anyway back uptown Control Center informed us there would be no No.1 Service from 137 Street to 242 Street and Subway Shuttle Busses where available. I ended up sitting at 125 Street because there was a Train at 137 Street with no crew. So I was at 125 Street for 20 Minutes before any movement. The people started getting wild. Calling control did no good. So they finally got someone on the train. Then I came in and was reliefed after 7 Hours on the same train. So At 4 PM the train behind me was the first train to go Throw to Van Courtlandt With a TSS since all the signals where dark. So They resumed Service and then other blackout at around 10:30PM. There was a downtown No.1 Train stuck at 181 Street and the crew guided the people up the Very long dark dirty stairway. They cut the No.1 Service from 242 Street to 137 Street. Then around 7AM Wednesday everything was moving with delays and all trains skiped 168,181, and 191. At 9AM thery had trains stopping at 191 Street with a dark station. During the Rush Hours there was no Skip stops. We only passed 181,and 168 Streets.
There was Delays going to Brooklyn and South Ferry. There was Signal problems on the Downtown Express track North of Chambers Street. So No.2,3 Trains were sent down the local. But lots of crews need to use the restrooms at Chambers Street after being stuck on the same trains for hours. So in turn there was Delays on all trains From 14 Street to Chambers. Some Midnignt and early AM crews did Not get off the road intil about 4:30PM.
Did the NYC Board of Transportation hired women drivers/conductors during the war years, as the other industries did?
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Hi!
I'm going to be visiting New York soon to see the Yankees play. I',m going to be arriving at Penn Station. I thought I'd take a cab to Grand Central and from there take the route 4 subway to the stadium. Does this make sense? Can someone tell me what taxi fares are in New York?
Scott --
Save yourself the time and the cab fare.
Once you arrive at Penn Station, walk one block east to 6th Avenue and 34th Street. There you can catch the D train to Yankee Stadium.
To heck with that, just take the A or C to 59st, and change for the D.
-Hank
Probably due to the power problems I saw the following abnormality at
7:23 am at Penn Station. While standing on the downtown express plat-
form a downtown "C" pulled in made up of R-46s. The train consisted of 5330-5331-5328-5329-5324-5325-5327-5326. When the train pulled out, the rear window destination sign still had the "A" posted, though
the front was defintely signed "C".
That is not an R46 train. It is an R44 train.
Dear Aaron:
The R-44s operate on the A line, and if possible, some of
the cars can be swithced over to the C. The R-46s operate only on
the E, F, G and R lines.
James S. Li
My bad, can't tell the difference by sight. R44 made by St. Louis,
R46 by Pullman, right???
Yes, that's correct. There is a way to tell them apart from the outside. Look on the car side where the blue stripe used to be below the windows. On the R-44s, that area is painted silver and stands out from the surrounding stainless steel skin. On the R-46s, that area is identical to the rest of the car surface; i. e., it is not painted.
The TA will be adding stainless strips where the blue strip use to be. They feel if they leave it the way it is it could comprimise the strucural strength of the cars.
Where did you hear that??????
WHAT? That stripe is simply the body of the car, painted blue or gray. Nothing added or taken away. They took the stripes off the cars because they came to the realization that if it doesn't need to be painted, they don't need to paint it, thus saving on the cost of paint, and the labor to apply it.
-Hank
That's very true, and it's just common sense. My observation was that the area where the blue stripe used to be definitely appears to be painted over in silver on the R-44s, because the surface is dull compared to the rest of the car. That's not the case on the R-46s; the area where the stripe used to be is shiny along with the rest of the car. You'd never guess there used to be a blue stripe on the R-46s.
No, most of the 44's have a non-stainless steel sheet of metal in the sheet, and this must be painted (it does rust, and there is no stainless steel under it). 5228-9 have a stainless steel sheet welded on. This is what they should do on the rest of the cars.
Steve will most likely be the person who settles this, but having seen the unpainted R44 (on SIR) it does not appear that there is, or was, a piece of carbon steel where the paint band is. Additionally, if there were, you would see large amounts of corrosion on the edges of the band, on both the stainless and non-stailess body parts, as the steel is reactive to each other, and will form a natural battery. if left close enough together for a period of time.
-Hank
The ones in Staten Island were made with a stainless steel band like the R-46's. The rest have carbon steel covered with a painted steel sheet.
It seems rediculous that they would manufacture some cars with all stainless steel bodies, and others without. This means (to my understanding) that they built over 387 cars with C-steel, and 64 with all stainless bodies. Seems mighty unlikely. And even if it were just the SIR cars, that means that 400 cars were built one way, and 52 the other. Steve, car to chime in on this one?
-Hank
IIRC, this is but one of several ways in which the specifications for GOH (general overhaul) differed between the Staten Island and non-Staten Island R-44s. The Staten Island cars were retrofitted with stainless steel "belly bands," while the others were patched and painted.
David
]It seems rediculous that they would manufacture some cars with all stainless steel bodies, and others without. This means (to my understanding) that they built over 387 cars with C-steel, and 64 with all stainless bodies. Seems mighty unlikely. And even if it were just the SIR cars, that means that 400 cars were built one way, and 52 the other. Steve, car to chime in on this one?]
The fact of the matter is that I don't know the answer but will find out I had heard that there was corrosion under the original paint on the 44s so they opted to repaint. I can say that after the 135th St collision, we cut up the car involved. It appeared that the car side was all stainless steel, however.
Huh?
The 44's were the older cars. So Pullman made the 46's slightly different in several ways, and one of those was to make the band stainless steel.
look at the door frames its the easiest of give aways.
Pullman Standard R46 have round door frames while St Louis Car Company R44 has square door frames. Interior- R44 has near doorways plexiglass windbreaker(shield) while R46 has nothing there to protect passengers from inclement weather. On A cars nearest cabs R44 has three seats nearest cab door while R 46 has two which explains why cab areas are larger on R46 and so DAMN cramped on the R44. A Conductor or Train OPerator has to literally go into to the passenger compartment to change their mind(HEHE) thats how small those cabs are. on R46 a train op can sit comfortably while on a R44 you're seated with the reverser key jammed into your groin...OUCH.
Originally the R-46's had those plexiglass windbreakers. Don't know why they were removed. Also, pre-overhaul R-44's had a metal supporter under the foward facing seats.
I think vandalism had something to do with it. OK, another difference: the cab door on the R-44s is narrower and is hinged. The cab door on the R-46s is wider, has a larger window, and is the sliding variety, IIRC.
BTW, I liked that crack about the operator having to go to the passenger compartment to change his mind. Definitely rim shot material!
The R46's also are more comfortabe if you have a window seat. The contoured armrests have rounded edges, where as the R44's have sharper edges. I onced acidentally had my elbow slammed into the edge of one of those and it hurt like hell!
The R44s still have the windbreakers (partitions near the doors), and they're not plexiglas - they're tempered safety glass. The R46 do not have them, and I've leaned through that gap on a number of occasions, mentally still thinking they were still there (they're not).
Wayne
They had that support because the seat support brackets were failing after 10 years of service and fat people (myself included).
The plexiglass dividers were present on the SIR R44 when they were returned, and they suddenly had a vandalism problem with them. They didn't have a problem before the overhaul. So now, we've got the empty frames. We've also got craked walls, but that's another story.
-Hank
look at the door frames its the easiest of give aways.
Pullman Standard R46 have round door frames on the outside near roof line while St Louis Car Company R44 has square door frames. Interior- R44 has near doorways plexiglass windbreaker(shield) while R46 has nothing there to protect passengers from inclement weather. On A cars nearest cabs R44 has three seats nearest cab door while R 46 has two which explains why cab areas are larger on R46 and so DAMN cramped on the R44. A Conductor or Train OPerator has to literally go into to the passenger compartment to change their mind(HEHE) thats how small those cabs are. on R46 a train op can sit comfortably while on a R44 you're seated with the reverser key jammed into your groin...OUCH.
A trains are R44 only......
Very true, very true. However, back in 1980, when everything that could possibly go wrong was going wrong, the R-46s did run on the CC. That was when they were plagued by cracking trucks. Since the CC was a rush hour-only service back then, it was determined that running the R-46s there would be the most prudent measure. So there they ran, in 6-car trains, while the R-10s went over to the E and F lines. I remember seeing all this during my last visit to New York before heading out to Colorado, on September 5, 1980.
Just to add to what you have stated, the R46s also ran on the "A" and "D" trains and there were several R10s on the "A" as well during that time. The R44s also went to the "E" and "F".
When originally delivered, R44 #260-399 operated on the "D"; #100-259 operated on the "E" and "F", mostly the "F".
Wayne
By 1980, the R-10s were running on the CC for the most part before going over to the E and F lines. The last time I rode on an A train of R-10s was around 1979 or 1980; when it pulled into 59th St. where I was waiting, I was ecstatic. The train roared along CPW the same as every other A train ever did. Interestingly enough, only the cars on the ends of the train were carrying A signs. The other 8 cars sported CC signs. The yard crew most likely took a CC train and coupled an additional car, each signed as an A, on each end.
Big difference is speed. Clearly, the R46's are faster. Actually, it might be the fastest in the train system since they refurbish them back in 1988.
Hmmmm, i've been on those R44's as they jet along the Fulton St. express and I can say with some certainty that they aren't slower than the R46.
It seems that R38s are a bit faster than R44s on both the CPW run and the Fulton Express. I did, however, get a pretty quick R44 (courtesy of #5408) back on February 11. #4060, however, beat it hands down on May 29th. Rocket ride from Hoyt to Nostrand with only one little GT.
Wayne
They R38's are a bit faster than the R44's, but the R46 is a rocket on the Queens Blvd line and so are the R62's on the 4 line.
Peace
DaShawn
R-46 numbers begin at 5482. What you saw was an R-44 train...
That was an R44 you saw, not an R46.
Wayne
These are definately R44s, not R46s. You can tell by the numbers. When the R44s were rebuilt, they were rebuilt by two companies, the Morrison-Knudsen and MTA Coney Island Shops. When the R44s were renumbered, the were numbered as follows:
5202-5341: Morrison-Knudsen; and 5342-5479: MTA Coney Island Shops.
The R46s, which the entire fleet was rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen, were renumbered as 5482-6256 give or take a few numbers.
Thus, judging from the numbers that you gave, you saw a set of R44s rebuilt by MK.
I recall that the car numbers of the R44's were changed long before they were rebuilt in 89-90. I remember seeing them all have 5000+ back in 86. The R46's, on the other hand all were numbered 500-1199 before the overhaul of 90-91 and were renumbered in 1993.
These were my observations as a rider, I might be wrong.
They weren't renumbered until just before, during, or after overhaul. 388-399 were transfered to the SIR, unrenumbered. (SIR has 388-464)
-Hank
You are definately wrong. When the R44s were sent out for rebuilding, the had their original numbers. When they arrived back from rebuilding, they carried new numbers. This was done during the years 1991-1993
Probably an R44 train that was moved over to the C from the A. Once in DC, they made a green line shortcut into a red line without changing signs. It went towards Judicuary Square with both the signs in the front and back windows green, and came back on the same track with red at the front and green at the back (this was due to the discontinuation of green line shortcut service due to a fire at Judicuary, so they made this green to Greenbelt into a red to Shady Grove or Grosvenor so people wouldn't have to wait as long. It still took me about 2 hours to get home). Probably, the motorman was in a hurry and didn't change all the signs.
I have seen this too. ON the J i have seen signs with Z on the front and J on the rear
I gave the wrong car number to one of the Triplexes in Class of '44. It was 6019, NOT 6012, whose number is visible in the film, in addition to 6095. 6012 is long gone.
Sorry for the gaffe.
Yes, Not a ghost train!
Due to some Power failure, the B train stopped at Court Street on the N,M,R tracks and took passengers up Broadway, switching to the middle track after Canal and making 'express stops only' in Manhattan. A very nice change to my usual local commute. I would love to see this as regular service. Where do I sign the petition?
Just wait until the Manhattan Bridge south side opens and north side closes.
Been there, waited for that.
Will that be before, or after the 2nd ave line gets finished?
IF they start buildng the 2nd avenue line, it will probably take them 15-30 years to finish...
You just answered my post of a half hour ago. Thanks!
Bring back the T! BTW, how fast did those overstuffed R-68s go?
It doesn't take a power failure. I caught a Northbound Broadway Express at 14th Street a few weeks ago in the middle of a work day. It was an N or R, I forget which. I was in a hurry, and it just showed up. It ran express at least as far as 42nd Street, where I got off.
It was probably a reroute due to delays on the local track or some other reason. I got lucky in October of 1991 and caught an N at Union Square which was running express due to what appeared to be a stalled local at 34th St. There were locals backed up all along the line.
And the 3 train went to South Ferry (it was switched over at Chambers). This was great for me because I change to the 1/9 at chambers to go to SF. Why would they do this?
Why does it take a heat wave to get the trains running right??
I would guess there was congestion on 2/3 to Brooklyn, so they "turned" the 3, i.e. at South Ferry they can swith her to 4/5 & she can go back home in the Bronx (probally have to be a #2 first) or become a 3 again at Chambers.
Mr t__:^)
From the sporadic (and usually wrong) transit reports of WINS, 1 service was royally screwed up, with 1/9 trains suspended from 168-2423, and 1 trains suspended from 137-242.
The current pattern, according to the TA (I called 330-1234) is All F service via the A line, W4st to Jay St due to a substation fire at Essex St; all 1/9 service turning at 145st; all A/C service terminating at 125st; B Trains are going to Queensbridge; D trains are Skipping al stops from 125st to 161st.
Or at least, that's what they're saying.
-Hank
On the 1/9 the underground yard is after 137th where they can turn on the center, "M" track, so I assume the last uptown stop would be at 137th. Past 145th there is a switch that would allow turning, but it would be more difficult for them to do it there.
Mr t__:^)
If service NB is not going beyond 145, its six of one , half dozen of another.
137 last stop. Train runs onto M track n of 137, dumps, T/O changes ends, goes S onto 1Track, 137 first stop. This move leaves the mainline clear for NB service to 242.
145 last stop. Train runs N of 145 to clear switch, dumps, T/O changes ends, goes S on M track across switch to 1Track, 137 first stop.
Obviously, choice 1 is preferred, but choice 2 is not any harder.
Frank Corrall in Pelham 1-2-3 would have loved it. I can just hear him punctuating his assessment with, "Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy."
The reason was there was continous Delays on the No.1/9 Line. The delays where from Tuesday to Wednesday. Also there was a No.3 BIE in the Clark Street Tube. Control had a open Mic.
I was in high school in the late sixties when most of the el stations throughout the city were still pretty much the same as when they opened back in the early 1900's. My family lived in a tenement off of Marcy Avenue and I remember getting the train for school from there. It was in terrible condition back then, mostly just from neglect. The side platforms were too narrow and the wooden planks were rotten in a lot of areas. I don't live in the city anymore, but I still go back to visit my sister and her family. I was really glad to see the improvements.
Last night around 10:20 the TA control center ordered all IND/BMT trains to not exceed series on their master controllers. This was in addition to earlier orders to cut out the headlights and main car body lights when out doors during the day time.
All the A/C units in crew facilities were shut down and the lights in some stations were dimmed.
This was due to a request from Con Edison to reduce power consumption.
The control center granted authorization to resume normal speed around 11:10.
Needless to say most motormen ignored the orders. I for one welcomed the opportunity to run $low. Late trains mean overtime. It also gave me a chance to catch up on my reading. 8-)
Did anyone tell the passengers train service will crawl due to a power shortage? This stuff is absolutely third world.
Passengers on the R-68s wouldn't see any difference, anyway.
Maybe they could recruit some of those tunnel rats to run in one of those cylindrical exercise wheels attached to a turbine generator (joke).
No, It's not third world. You see, there's a power shortage that's been going on the last few days. Can't make enough. What really bugs me is there's a perfectly useable power plant out on the Island called Shoreham. One that was built, tested, then closed, because people here refuse to accept a method of power generation that is used throughtout the world safely (save for the former USSR, but that's another can of worms). I have no sympathy for people who loose their power anymore (or when I loose it myself) Everyone wants wants wants - but nobody wants the other end (the power plant) near them. same with transmission lines. People forget that electricity doesn't grow on tress. Most of what went on the last few days was due more to NIMBYism than anything else.
But, of course, it's only Con Ed's fault. Like they're supposed to wave a wand and double the capacity of their system without building anything?
Con Ed has had 34 years to improve their system. I was in the city in the 1965 failure. It started when a relay failed at a plant near Niagara falls which int unred knocked a substation off-line which knocked off more plants. The CANUSE (the power grid) grid performed as expected and sent tons of power rushing upstate to fill the void which caused more plants to fail including several Con-Ed plants. Finally con-ed lost several generators and plants and finally was forced to pull the plug to avoid even more damage.
In 1977 Con-ED lost Ravenswood due to lightning. A domino effect once again took out the city.
I realize the nimby forces may stop new plants but more feeder cables should be installed and of higher ratings and quality.
They should also improve the training of their people to recognize dangers and use the grid to get more power to the city.
Welcome to the next big NIMBY war / City Planning nightmare.
A bunch of private power companies want to build private gas-fired electric plants in various parts of the city to compete with Con Ed. One even expressed an interest in Governors Island. Sunset Park is another possibility. Where the neighbors have gotten wind, its war. And with the environmental process, even a clean burning gas plant could have a problem. Power plants are "as-of-right" in M3, but the one I knew about wanted to build a floating power station on a pier so it wouldn't have to buy land -- just a massive natural gas connection.
As for putting the plants elsewhere and adding transmission capacity, you've all heard about cancer causing electromagnetic fields haven't you. It turns out that almost everyone who has gotten cancer in this country in the last 20 years has been near electric fields! That is, they have had electricity in their home. They've all drunk water as well, but no one has latched onto that issue yet.
Thats why eveyone should go out and get a portable diesel genarator.
Their not that expensive.
The plant on LI is nuclear. People worry abut pollution and it reminds
them of the plant in the former USSR.
How about the plant near Queensbridge. That plant online right?
How populated is Shoreham anyway? Build a nuclear plant in NYC.
People are afraid of Shoreham for the same reason they are afraid of ALL nuke plants.
They simply don't know a thing about it.
#1 Shoreham was (I believe) a GE BWR-5 (maybe 6?) This design boils the water directly in the reactor vessel, and sends it to turbines that turn generators. It's been very sucessfully used in the US and abroad. One of the more interesting charachteristics of them is that the steam loop has radioactive Nitrogen in it - though the stuff has a half life of only 7 min, meaning that it looses half it's radiation after 7 min.
#2 The amount of waste from ANY nuclear plant is rather tiny - only a few tons per year, which is stored onsite anyway. The low level stuff (raidoactive man suits, etc) is the majority. The fuel (which *is* very radioactive) never leaves the site for at least 10 years.
#3 The waste, unlike emissions from coal plants, or incinerators, will ultimately lose it's radioactivity. Fuel rods (I believe) are supposed to be as radioactive as the uranium that made them origionally in about 100 years, not the millions that anti nuke people want you to think.
#4 Three Mile Island did NOT explode. It melted down. (It's a complicated issue that I won't go into here)
#5 The explosion at Chrynobyl was a steam, not a nuclear. Also note that such a plant wqould not have been built pretty much anywhere else in the world.
#6 There's a nuke plant up at Indian point, which is closer to NYC than Shoreham anyway. Has been for years.
Is nuclear the only answer? No. But it's not as dangerous as everyone thinks it is, nor are the issues of waste as unsolveable. I support nuclear power because it doesn't pollute the air or water, yet gives me the power to enjoy my life. In short, nuclear power means a higher standard of living.
No one who knows anything about Nukes expects one to explode. That a well designed Nuke will only melt down in the event of a cooling system failure is small comfort. The environmental contamination resulting from such an accident or from any unplanned discharge into surrounding air, water, or ground should not be made light of. LI has no operating commercial Nukes because the plans for evacuation of the population on LI near the plant in the event of a leak were a joke.
Moreover, the industry's experience in its first few decades has shown that the economics of running Nukes are not nearly as favorable as had been expected.
The recent trend toward demolishing hydro power dams is much more worrisome than anti-Nuke attitudes. Dam removal is actually reducing generating capacity.
there are 3 power plants at IP but only 2 are active
#4 Three Mile Island did NOT explode. It melted down. (It's a complicated issue that I won't go into here)
When people criticize nuclear power plants, they cite first Chernobyl, then TMI. But the counter argument, from actual nuclear engineers, also cites TMI. They show that the safety systems, and all the emergency procedures worked exactly as designed, and the threat to the community was minimal.
-Hank
What about solar panels. If the capacity problem occurs on really hot days, and everyone had solar panels on the roof, wouldn't that offset? I had heard that solar panels were getting competitive (of course that depends on the quality of the installation and how long they last). As a source of peak power, I'd bet they'd be even more competitive given the way the price of power spikes in those cases. The New York Metro Area has lots of residential rooves just taking up space, which could be put to use.
If it seems to work and the payback is OK, I'd consider putting some panels up on my roof the next time it needs to be redone.
Materials science should keep getting the cost of photovoltaics down, and the efficiency up. I think this sort of small scale renewable energy will be significantly boosted by utility deregulation. In some states, if you have solar powers or a windmill on your property, and you generate more power than you are using, you can put that power into the grid and the electric utility has to buy it from you. (I am not sure if this applies to residences, but it could in the near future...) This sort of thing, and competition among energy producers, could really open up solar IMHO.
It makes sense to criticize Con Ed for not being prepared for the past few weeks. On the other hand, if the mayor and the governor had real vision, they could use this to promote far more energy efficient air conditioning, and twist Con Ed's arm to get them to chip in for it. It would probably be a cost effective way for con ed to get up to the needed capacity (ie, reduce demand).
The power problems of the last week have to do with the capacity of the neighborhood networks, NOT a lack of power plants. It's like have 500 subway cars, and only 4 miles of track. The way power distribution works, it's generated, reduced, transmitted (with increases along the way to account for loss), reduced, redistributed, reduced again, and finally delivered. If a neighborhood transformer goes out, you lose 10 customers. If a local transformer goes out, you lose about 100. If the local substation goes out, you lose about 10,000 customers. If a larger, regional substation goes out, you lose about 70,000. If your plant goes out, you're screwed, because everybody goes out. This is where your dominos start to fall. This is also where the media (and His Cheesiness) are in error. They call the failure a lack of available power, when what it really is is a lack of ability to carry the power. Like the Lexington line.
The substation that failed was equivalent to 3 local substations, since limnited space in NYC doesn't allow you to spread them out as much.
-Hank
With respect, from the customer's point of view, if it isn't available at the wall outlet, it isn't available. The typical NYer neither knows nor cares about the distinction between generating capacity and transmission capacity. He wants his lights, and he wants his A/C.
I must say that I think you have allowed your generally high opinion of Hizzoner the Grouch to color your judgment. Since he doesn't have the good sense to take off his tie when it's over 100 degrees, you should give him a break for being too cranky to make fine technical distinctions that most of his audience wouldn't have cared about.
[This is also where the media (and His Cheesiness) are in error. They call the failure a lack of available power, when what it really is is a lack of ability to carry the power. Like the Lexington line.]
Con Ed should build the Second Avenue power line. It might be ready in 70 years or so :-)
I need the Signal control line drawings for the following:
1) Myrtle Avenue El to Bridge-Jay Street
2) Third Avenue El in the Bronx and Manhattan
3) Culver Shuttle
Can anyone supply me with a copy? Let me know via E-Mail.
Can anyone supply me with Signal Control Line Drawings for the entire system?
I have an extra set from 1976. I will E-Mail you tonight.
I wonder if two rats can drive a subway train. One would operate the master controller and other would operate the brake valve. Think of all the expense NYCT could save.
Actually, aren't the R-142s gonna have single handle controllers? Then you'd only need one rat! Actually, 2 maybe - one to weight down the deadman, one to push the handle around.
But - can rats join unions? Then the savings might not be as much.
(Actually, aren't the R-142s gonna have single handle controllers? Then you'd only need one rat! Actually, 2 maybe - one to
weight down the deadman, one to push the handle around.
But - can rats join unions? Then the savings might not be as much.)
You make a good point.
NYCT is a closed shop- you must either join the Union or pay the shop fee (same amount as Union dues). The rats would have to pay! And yes- the rats would have to pass drug, alcohol and medical tests.
What you describe is a union shop, not a closed shop. In a closed shop, you must belong to the union; merely paying a fee is not allowed. Closed shops are illegal for public employees in New York State. Also, for many other categories of unionized workers in many US jurisdictions.
If we let rats into the union, then who's blow up dolls will we be able to burn in effigy at union rallys?
P.S.
Dave; for a respectable dude in such a high responsibility job, you have a shocking sense of humor! I've been meaning to tell you that.
I'm sorry I brought it up! I was going to ask if you could get a rat to open and close the doors. There might be a problem with squeaky announcements, though.
Bad announcements? Like "s zzzzz tmss re cg hr fr iv ex en errrrr aaa see ee nd mbr ven tch ta losg drs" is understandable?
PS - I'm not handing out a prize - but can anyone guess what I just said? (-:
"This is Times Square. Change here for . . . N, R, A, C, E, and #1. Watch the closing doors." Amazing. You rally sound just like the PA announcements on the trains. This is just about as much as I can usually make out. Haven't a clue what "iv ex" means.
Actually having rats working in the TA isn't a bad idea for the union at all. Since they chew on ANYTHING they would create massive amounts of overtime for all departments. Their pay is cheap if you place some provolone cheese on third rail cables, door engine wiring and inside bus motors. We could also use pigeons too. Remember the chap who was killed ten years ago after being hit by a suspension cable on the Brooklyn Bridge? The corrosion of the steel cable was blamed on acidic pigeon doo doo. Department of Infrastructure would have job security with pigeons and rats.
And not to forget acid rain. Pigeons, rats and acid rain -- what a deadly combination!
Only ONE job class - pigeons are "flying rats".
Have guys been smoking steel dust???? (at least it wouldn't show up in the screenings...)
I know a few rats who belong to unions :~}
One rat oughtta do it. Have you seen their SIZE lately? More like CATS that RATS!
--Mark
why bother when ATO(automatic train operation) is in the not too distant(translated 40 years)
Today i was waiting for E train and i saw R46 #6128 with orange R sign. I was suprise that i never see orange R sign in my life. What they use for? Any one about this?
Peace Out
"Meaney"
Maybe at some point the R will operate via 6th Av during some construction. They did the same thing with the B and D trains a few years back. When the Manhattan Bridge work was going on there were split B & D services. Part ran to 34th St/6th Av. To continue you had to transfer to B & D service running on the Broadway line (N & R) from 57th St/7th Av to Brooklyn. Those trains (B & D) running via Broadway had Yellow circles with Black letters.
Or maybe there was a printing error and they didn't want to throw away
the roll sign.
Maybe when the 63rd Street tunnel is open, some R trains will operate via 6th Avenue and some via Broadway. The other option is to show that the train is going up 6th Avenue instead of Broadway due to a reroute.
Also, a few years ago, I saw a Q train with the yellow and black sign on the Brighton Line (I forget where exactly). Any ideas as to why he had that sign displayed?
At the time, some cars only had the yellow "Q" sign. The R40M and R42 cars still have only yellow "Q" signs. The Orange "Q" signs were added on later in the R40 and R68 cars, IIRC. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
Wayne
R42s now have the orange Q sign.
-Stef
R-42's have always had the orange Q. It was only the original R-68 signs that did not have it. They used the diamond yellow Q. Replacement signs have it, though. So when the Q used R-68's it could only be in yellow, and even the newer signs they kept on yellow to be uniform with the rest.
The R68a had an orange Q. The earlier R68 did not.
All the answers below have merit but it should be pointed out that the Q is actually a Broadway line route, therefore the Yellow circle with black letter. That is why earlier roll signs have the yellow symbol.
When the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were closed and the
N's were sent thru the Montague St Tunnel, the Q's were shifted to the 6th Avenue line. As newer equipment was added and new roll signs printed the Orange Q was added (there also Yellow B's and D's on some sign rolls).
If and when the south side tracks are reopened the Q might be returned to Broadway line service.
i remember when the R was the RR and it was green with white letters and the Q was the QB with red with white letters the B was black with a white backround.. some lines havent changed the D,F,A,also all shuttle srvices were SS green with white lettering..FYI
To my knowledge, there are no orange Rs. However, since you were thorough enough to give the car #, I will check the car out ASAP & see what's up.
I wonder if it had a white letter - if it had a black letter, it could have been a Broadway yellow sign which became discolored for one reason or another.
I saw an orange "N" sign (with WHITE letter) in the front of R40 #4320. I did several double-takes but it appeared orange nonetheless.
The "N" was white, that much I am certain of.
Wayne
Perhaps it was an attempt to make a deepr yellow that could be used with a white letter. They did this on the last Metrocard station poster, using the orange usually used on 6th Av for the N&R, and the BDF&Q used a deeper orange. This is why I like the deep gold, because it is easier to see than yellow, yet does not look like orange.
Brian Cudahy makes two references to an orange and white N in the original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York. One reference is found in the film set appendix, specifically where The French Connection is mentioned along with R-42s 4572-4573. The other reference is in the epilogue "A Ride on the Sea Beach".
Curiously, if I'm not mistaken, the N line has had a yellow or gold color code ever since colors were adopted with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection.
The N has always been thus.
The only other lines that never changed colors are the "A", "D" and #2. The "G" changed shades, becoming a lighter green. The "L" also changed shades, going from black to grey. So did the "E", going from light to dark blue.
Wayne
Just arrived in NYC for a 3-day "Transit & Weather Together" visit. In the first hour: R-46 on the E; R running on 6th Ave; B on Broadway; F running on the 8th Avenue line between W 4th and Jay; and an R-42 on the Q. While I hate the heat, and hope the blackouts are over soon, it sure makes for interesting riding!
I'm sure we'll all be listening to WCBS-AM Newsradio 88 to hear you, Todd. Perhaps you could change the forecast for the next three days to: Sunny and dry; High about 80 :-)
[ I'm sure we'll all be listening to WCBS-AM Newsradio 88 to hear you,
Todd. Perhaps you could change the forecast for the next three days
to: Sunny and dry; High about 80 :-) ]
Or, maybe he could add some car-assignment predictions:
"Sunny and dry, high about 80, some R32's will likely be assigned to the Eastern division, with scattered R42's running to Astoria"
Somehow I think I have better luck with car assignment forecasts than the weather :-)
Rode the B on the Broadway express just now. They even had the right color posted!
I was on a northbound N on the Broadway line today about 1 PM. As we pulled into the 34th St. station, a B train pulled in across the platform on the express tracks. Now if they could only restore Brighton and Sea Beach expresses to the Broadway BMT...
I just wish that B was a Slant 40 instead of a HIPPO!
Todd you're a man after my own heart!
Were the "B"s on the Broadway wearing Yellow or Orange signs?
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
The two that I saw were wearing Orange signs.
The B train was running on the southbound Broadway/Sea Beach express all afternoon. I rode the "N" out the Sea Beach this afternoon after a meeting and I caught two "B" trains on the express track (the "northbound" track) at 8th Avenue Brooklyn (pictures next week).
Actually, there are a lot of R42s on the Q now. There has also been an occaisional r40m on the Q.
I had heard sometime that the subway's power came direct from the upstate power dams via the New York State Power Authority. If that's true, why did the subway go down with Con Ed? Where does the power come from? Doesn't the transit system have its own power grid separate from the local residential lines?
A related question. We now have electric power competition. The parameters are price and reliability. Let's say you select a cheaper, but less reliable supplier, which craps out on a day like yesterday. Could Con Ed just black YOU out, since your supplier isn't delivering? Or is it all one grid in which if someone isn't putting enough, everyone has to get less out, even if they paid for a more expensive but more reliable supplier? And in that case, wouldn't the cheaper but less reliable suppliers get all the business?
Here in Pennsylvania, with our version of electric choice, you choose a power supplier. The "delivery" company is still your local electric utility, which still owns the wires, transformers, etc. Thus, if Peco Energy lines fail, I lose my power, even though I've chosen a different supplier. This has happened quite a bit with all the heat-related problems in this area in the last couple of days. It should shed some interesting light on the power competition issue.
Both SEPTA and Amtrak are experiencing this with their own hopes to choose suppliers. Amtrak had tried to strike a deal with Enron but that's still up in the air, and SEPTA's trying to seek bidders for power. The "vulture" circling this is our local company, Peco, which is screaming about loyalty, local preference, investment, etc as well as trying to drag politicos into the mix.
The problem utilities, especially electric and phone concerns, face today is that they haven't invested in infrastructure (especially the private ones which are more concerned about profit and dividends to shareholders) and this hasn't kept up with current demands. In the Phila area, we hear about all the extra demand due to everyone having air conditioning (certainly not a recent invention and not a phenomenon which has only just proliferated). The real problem is related to Peco's investment in its distribution and transmission systems, which the public record will show is woefully inadequate.
The moral of the story is - regardless of who you've chosen for your "juice", if the local company goes down, you'll go with 'em.
I don't think the TA has an extension cord long enough to reach the dams. I suspect that, if the TA does buy "directly" from PASNY, that is a matter of book keeping and that the power is delivered through Con Ed feeder lines. Electricity being fungible, no one cares so long as PASNY sends Con Ed the same amount on account of the TA as the TA takes from Con Ed.
I don't know whether the TA has its own grid for traction and signal power; but, judging from the events of the last two days, the station lights seem to be powered from the nearest Con Ed manhole.
As for your last question: power pools are supposed to work like the three musketeers. Of course, if you are Humungous Industrial Electrical Consumer, Inc., and you have told the local former electrical monopolist to "stick it," you might be wise to have some back up generation capacity of your own. I don't think there is any way, in the midst of an emergency, that Con Ed could selectively pull the plug on individual residential users. When Con Ed wants to pull the plug on you, it has to send some one to your home and physically disconnect you. Not feasible for you and me. HIEC's are another story. Many of them contract for interruptable service so that they can be cut off by the utility in case of a power shortage. Of course, they don't expect it to actually happen.
For example, a few years ago, Con Ed pulled the plug on NY Telephone. Due to inadequate maintenance and incredibly silly alarm arrangements, Telco suffered a hardware failure while switching over to internal power, was unable to generate its own power and automatically went to battery power. The alarm designed to alert its people that the system had gone to batteries was located in some remote corner of no where. By the time some one happened to wander by and notice the alarm, hours had passed. Its batteries went dead about half way through the repairs. Sounds almost like a public agency.
To David Pirmann early today after i came out of work and i went to take 4 train to Bedford Pk Blvd to take some pictures at Grand Concourse Yard. Than i saw R30 #8337 & #8227 sitting at Grand Concourse Yard. I was suprise that there was another R30 at Grand Concourse Yard. I took three pictures of R30.
Hey David,
How many R30s did you see out there?
There are only supposed to be two R30s used for training of motormen (or motorwomen) at Concourse, numbered 8265-8336.
-Constantine
All i saw it two R30 and took a close look at the Number #8337 and 8227 but i didn't see other R30. Im going back again tomorrow to check out the number again.
Hey Stef, You were right about R30 #8336 & #8265 at Concourse Yard. Also there is a yellow work cars OR720 & IR720 (ex R21). What is OR & IR for? Garbage Cars?
These are the revenue collection cars, used to collect the money from the various points in the subway system at night. The Revenue Collectors are arranged in two car sets, which somewhat explains why they have the same designation R720. The labels OR and IR are supposed to differentiate the cars from each other in case they have to be shopped for whatever reason. Also, there are 20 2 car sets: R714-R723, located at various points along this system. Would anyone care to name the various locations (yards) each of the sets are at???
The garbage cars until recently, were old IRT cars painted in yellow, but were then replaced with cars similar to the R62. Maybe you've seen them. They are called the R127s and R134s and very much look like what we see in passenger service, with the exception of no windows on the cars, and a set of center doors.
These cars cost 1 million dollars each to produce!!! They couldn't put air conditioning in them? Why not???? These poor guys must have been suffering in this horrible heat.
-Stef
The reason that these work cars don't have air conditioning is that the TA really doesn't give a rats ass about their worker's well being and morale. They spent money that could have been used for improving our crew facilities, beefing up rest times between long trips or removing asbestos from the crew rooms years ago but instead they spent money on cars they used to PRODUCE in their own shops, such as the rider cars, out of cars that will be retired anyway. When the 50 year old R-12 rider cars fall apart from the metal fatigue and rust cancers within, they will not be replaced by retiring R-26s and R-28s, unless they strip them of their functioning A/C first. Better yet they will give us the single R-33 cars because they won't have to add B division trippers. By the way is the NYCTA the only outfit that buys their work equipment brand new and is it justifiable?
Harry,
I'm sorry to hear. The TA should care about what happens to their workers, making the Transit Scene a more productive environment. Single R33s might do the trick as they won't have to be modified very much. If the R12s are suffering from metal fatigue, then maybe it's time to retire them. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the TA trying to cut corners by producing their own work equipment in the shops. There is a problem when they don't start taking the needs of it's workers into consideration.
R26/28s: are they useful as work equipment? Probably not, since they are arranged in pairs, and yes they do have AC. The purpose of the rider car is to dump off whatever unnecessary equipment that's there. As is, the cars would be too heavy to pull by diesel along with various work pieces. The car should be a lightened load, but at the same time add to the tractive effort of the work train. Anyway, the riders are good spacer cars to stick between diesels to lighten the weight of the locomotives while they are travelling along the elevated stretches of the subway system.
Whatever the case maybe, it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing for the TA to buy new equipment, if the TA could accomodate the needs of the workers.
-Stef
Back in the 60's i remember seeing a work train of BMT standards with some flat cars,this was at Fresh Pond Rd station when they replaced the track in sections and loaded them onto flatbed trucks waiting on the street,also the old center cab locomotive with lowered trolley pole was also present..........later Karl M
True, true! I wonder if the ABs were reliable in work service?. A locomotive with a trolley pole - must have been a steeple cab from the old days of the South Brooklyn Rwailway (5,6,7).
Was it true that some QX Types were fitted with trolley poles for service on the South Brooklyn Railway???
I wouldn't be surprised if some of our Redbirds in 1999 were held over to work service. You don't always need a diesel to haul work equipment; a perfectly working subway car can haul flats,hoppers, or anything else. You would have to change the coupler from H2C to MCB on the converted subway cars to haul the work equipment.
-Stef
[ I wouldn't be surprised if some of our Redbirds in 1999 were held over
to work service. You don't always need a diesel to haul work
equipment; a perfectly working subway car can haul flats,hoppers, or
anything else. You would have to change the coupler from H2C to MCB on
the converted subway cars to haul the work equipment. ]
Surely they should be kept as work equipment. Personally I think the stainless steel work equipment is a big waste of money..
The fact that they come in married pair sets isn't too big a deal either. Either use them as a pair, or it shouldn't be too hard to retrofit electrical equipment under a compressor car.. For that matter, you could even put some electrical stuff in the passenger area.
Of course, depending on what you're doing, you can't always substitute a subway car for a diesel -- besides the obvious problem of non-electrified trackage (or trackage with power off), and third rail gaps, the diesels also have finer speed modulation (and control of acceleration rates), and probably much more tractive effort per car.
You have valid points. Who says you have to purchase new work equipment (only if it's necessary)?
Diesels do have the ability to travel everywhere, with or without third rail power.
I got an idea, why doesn't someone in the shop retrofit a SMEE car with a diesel engine???
-Stef
R-127 were $1,113,000 and the R-134 were $1,530,000 each.
Yeow!!! For the money spent, they should have put air conditioning into those stainless steel wonders.....
-Stef
Not to defend high prices, but there are legitimate reasons why those cars cost so much. Things like wire, the TA requires. It's insulation is made from teflon and costs a lot. Also the body is stainless steel. It costs more to purchase but is virtually maintainence free.
I don't agree with the observation that the TA locomotives have more tractive effort than the passenger cars. One engine can barely get out of it's own way. They need two just to haul more than 3 or 4 cars. I've seen one live passenger car pull eight R-46's once. That was one crazy main shop move!
As for no A/C on the work equipment, I agree. The TA is awful cheap when it comes to taking care of it's employees. BUT, lets stop crying about it. What did the old timers do before A/C? The R-134 has no A/C because there's no place to mount an A/C compressor. The space normally used for that is occupied by an additional brake compressor needed for the flat cars.
I stand corrected! Passenger cars really do have the pulling power!
-Stef
Erik, Seems like our roles have reversed. This is one time I dis-agree with management. Long before the R-134s were built, the technology for unitized HVAC was available. I'm talking about the HVAC found in the R-110s, 142s and 143s. The whole unit mounts in the roof through a hatch. Nothing under the car. It should have been included on the 127s and 134s.
But, ah, co$t. The bottom line is after all they care about.
Is teflon wiring insulation used for fire resistance or for some other reason?
i'm not sure if those R27/30's are used for school car at least when is was.. if i'm correct those two cars aren't operational maybe just used for stationary use as classrooms? did you look in the back for the split in two R62's? At the back half of CCY nearest Lehman College are two halves of an R62(union SQ) the car number plates were removed.
I've seen the car. 1437(?) is sitting next to a pair of R12/14s. The "split" R62 is vandalized. How??? I would like to know how the people managed to do it, unless it's people who are very familiar with the yard.
The R30s are probably stationary classrooms if not for anything else.
8424 and 25 serve the same purpose at C.I. as well as numerous others in the various yards.
-Stef
You saw two odd numbered unmarried cars? Were they with their mates or no? If you could send a picture for the roster that would be much appreciated!
-Dave
Ok with me David and pictures should be out next week. I will send it to you.
Peace Out
Meaney
Almost everybody knows that #1437 and #1440 died an early death 8 year s ago at Union Square.
Has anyone seen #1435, #1436 and #1439 recently, or are they going to be scrapped too?
On another note, anyone seen #1434 or #1438 recently? Or are they in a mismatched set possibly containing 1431-1432-1433-1434-1438?
Nick C
Yes, there is a five-car set numbered #1431-1432-1433-1434-1438, with #1438 sporting a transverse cab. They were far back enough in the consist to have escaped damage. #1434 was the 6th car, not sure where #1438 was (anyone have the NTSB report?)
#1435 and #1436 (end damage - bonnets and anticlimbers, possible bent frame on #1435) and #1439 (roof, side and #2 end damage) are up at 207th Street last I heard.
Someone with more intimate knowledge of just what's on Death Row up there could fill us in.
Wayne
In Concourse Yard way in the back of the yard are remaining ends of R62's what numbers i have no idea since the plates are missing.
If it's in two pieces, than it's probably 1437, as 1440's side was sheared off in a similar manner to that of R68 #2755. Oddball! 2755 has weird number plates when compared to her companions.
-Stef
Wasn't the damage to #1440 a lateral penetration of about seven feet, caused by contact with the girders? I would think there would also have been some shearing as well with this. I have a Newsday photo I could send to you via e-mail showing the interior. It was such a deep gash that the seats on the opposite side of the car were folded upright, and the ceiling and light fixtures came down. The photo also shows how the side opposite the impact was bowed from the force.
Wayne
You're probably right. This is just my observation on the car.... Those girders acted like a can opener cutting peeling the lid off this sardine can! I can't recall, but did this car get a bent frame as a result???
I guess she's probably sitting on the deadline at 207th St. I almost wish we could get a walking tour of the yard to observe the deadline of cars. I wish they'd put the wrecked R33s over there already... What are they waiting for??? They're just taking up space over on track 10 (at 239th St). It would be nice if they could be salvaged.
The wrecks should be situated in one area. As I recall, years ago the TA decided to do a clean sweep of 180th St and 239th St Yard, sending REDBIRD R17s to Scrap (good thing 6688 wasn't here!!!), as well as whatever unused work motors they didn't need anymore. Was it my imagination or did they have R12 5704 up at 239th Street for many years???? This car looked ok. She was decked out in an all red paint scheme when I saw her. Why didn't that car get preserved as a museum piece????
-Stef
Good question. Either there weren't any takers, or no one knew it was available.
Just so you know there were several available; R15s 5981, 5992, and 6235 were also sitting around in dead storage for many years. 5981 and 92 were in red, and 6235 was in white, ehhhhh!
-Stef
There's still at least one R15 on the property (not counting the one in the Transit Museum). RQ335. Don't know what it's former number is offhand. It used to be at 36th St Yard but I saw it yesterday in Stillwell (Coney Island) Yard.
-Dave
That's a rider car. There is also an RD336. Don't know what their former unit numbers were. RD336 looked to be in pretty good shape when I saw her last Sept.19th.
Wayne
Yup, other than that, the rest are history!
-Stef
The real question would have to be: were any of those other cars in running condition? If not, who knows how long it would have taken to get them running again. It's still a shame none were saved.
Re. #1440 - my observations of the interior photo shows that the floor was displaced laterally across the car. The frame on the impact side appears to have been substantially destroyed at the point of impact. On the opposite side, you have about a 25-degree (estimate) bend from left to right. I'll bet the wrecking crew cut that car apart right then and there, like they did to #1437. Perhaps the two half shells you saw up at Concourse yard - one is the front half of #1437 (which survived intact - point of impact was between the second and third doors) and the other is half of #1440. Those number plaques are probably sitting on someone's den wall. Maybe we'll see them out on the block at eBay one day.
Wayne
Will they ever be on the road again?
I saw R68 #2577 today and that the weird number plates i ever see but i didn't take pictures because i was on the train moving.
2577? I don't recall seeing odd plates. You know, 2579 is out due to fire damage at Tremont Av not too long ago.
-Stef
He meant 2755.. The numbers on one side are different. They look like the stick-on numerals you see on IRT cars. Perhaps she came back from the repair facility minus the number plaques on the repaired side.
2579 has been marked with an orange box in my book (and the cell in r68.123 has been colored orange as well), indicating out of service due to fire damage.
Wayne
Someone emailed me to tell me that while 2755 was in dead storage, someone snatched her number plates. A shame, since the car hadn't even gone to scrap.
On the R62 question, I never considered that one of the two halves of the R62 at Concourse might be 1440. 1440's damage looked pretty bad.
-Stef
how much damage did the fire do? those subway cars are barely 12-13 years old...
Fire? I thought it was a derailment! This is the Union Sq wreck from 1991, the one with the intoxicated motorman who ran the train off the tracks.
Check the accident list on this site.
-Stef
How do you know that he was drunk?
[How do you know that he (Union Square T/O) was drunk?]
He was convicted of manslaughter based on intoxication, and sentenced to prison.
He failed a BAC test. Plus he overshot a few platforms up on the Woodlawn part of the line. It's a damn shame.
Wayne
Its good thing that nobody did not get to the street level tha fast way. OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He overshot at Mosholu and at one other stop. No doubt the conductor could not see his boards and therefore would not open the doors.
I'll have to go get my copies of the newspapers and see if anything was reported regarding the overshot stations. (I'm doing this now)
(5 minutes time has elapsed).
OK the Daily News said that he overshot Mosholu Parkway and Bedford Park Boulevard, both by a full five cars, "preventing passengers from leaving the train", so I would guess that the conductor was unable to open the lead half of the train, or even opening the doors at all.
BTW - the BAC was .21 - legally drunk is .10, DWAI is .08.
Wayne
I still have my Daily News articles from the Fulton St firebombing and the Williamsburg collision...................
Yes, I have a full Newsday (headlined "Point of Impact") from June 6, 1995, showing the Williamsburg Bridge collision in full graphic detail. You can really see how #4461 muscled her way into #4664's interior, crushing her "A" end but sparing her frame. She'll ride again, I hear, only this time as a "he" and with a Slant R40 end.
Wayne
i would have pulled the emergency brake at that point if i was on that train....
Sorry my bad is R68 #2755 not 2577. Again i saw it at 42st Station today. One side have weird number and other doesn't.
Tell me more bout it
John
There wasn't any. A derailment occurred back in 1991 when an intoxicated motorman ran the train off the tracks just outside of Union Sq.
Check the accident list located on this site.
-Stef
I think he's referring to the recent incident at 182nd-183rd Street in which #2579 got toasted...
And Mr. Ray is still in Jail, correct?
Just an observation here - the picture in the IRT Lexington Line section showing the Union Square wreck clearly shows the shorn-off #2 end of #1437 thrust up against the tunnel ceiling. The signal on the right shows "X", which means we are looking north up the southbound track. The car on the right would have to be #1439, since it was the second car in the train. Look at the roof line - isn't that a rather large dent? #1440 was behind the end of #1437, wrapped around a girder so it isn't visible. And the front half of #1437 wound up with its nose about 75 feet from the station.
Wayne
Right you are.
I don't have any clue about what happened to Mr. Ray though. The equipment itself is in question; I would like to know how long the equipment has to stay in dead storage (pending litigation) before going to scrap?
-Stef
It all seemed fine at first ...
I got to Penn Station about 5:15 this afternoon. Everything seemed okay, crowds no larger than usual for a Wednesday. I went down to Track 16 to get the 5:23 to Long Beach - I connect at Jamaica to a Ronkonkoma train, then at Ronkonkoma to the Greenport shuttle for Medford. Train's at the platform, I board, get a seat, figure it'll be a routine ride. In my dreams. 5:23 comes around and we aren't moving. A few minutes later, the conductor announces that due to signal problems at the east end of the tunnels, we're going to be delayed for a while. He has no estimate on how long it'll be. Meanwhile, the crowds are building on the platform, waiting for the 5:41 express to Ronkonkoma, which also leaves from Track 16. Finally, at about 5:50, I hear the station P.A. announce that the 5:41 will be leaving from Track 21. I start to think, we're not moving anywhere, the train I'm on may not be an "guaranteed" Greenport connection, maybe I should get the 5:41 because that is a guaranteed connection and might get to Ronkonkoma first.
Bad move. I used that elevated walkway on the west end of the station to get to Track 21. It was an absolute nightmare, more crowded than anything I've experienced on the subway. It's a miracle that no one (as far as I know!) got trampled to death. After several minutes, I finally got to Track 21 just as the 5:41 (by this time more than 20 minutes late) pulled in. The fun was just starting. Now, the 5:41 normally has 10 cars and is filled to capacity with many standees. Yet the train now pulling in has only SIX cars!!! Huge mobs rushed the doors, quickly filling every seat, with standees jamming the vestibules and the aisles. The conductor announced "All Aboard" with probably hundreds of people still on the platform unable to squeeze onto the train. I, of course, was among them, having delayed in leaving the train on Track 15. Realizing that it would be impossible to board, I gave up and went back to Track 15, needless to say once again fighting my way through a seething mob. I finally got back to Track 15 ... just as the 5:23 pulled out. Isn't commuting fun :-)
(BTW - I finally got onto the 6:21 to Ronkonkoma, which didn't leave until after 7 and then *crawled* through the tunnel. I finally got to Ronkonkoma at about 8:20, where my wife picked me up. I was not a happy camper).
It's nice every now and then to hear a little humor in our hum drum existence. On a 6:15 NJtransit train pulling into Hoboken Terminal the following was hear over the speakers..(E= Train Enginener, C= Conductor) E:"Hey Jimmy were going somewhere new today, I'll tell you in a second" E:"Where going upto the northside...ummmmm....track 7. So the doors will be opening on the south side.(at Hoboken for those who don't know the tracks run north to south from 1 to 13, the Electric MUs usually use the higher number tracks...i.e. 10,11. etc.) C:"Which side??" E:"South S-O-U-T-H"(laughter inthe back ground) C: "Which side is south??" E:"Ok Let me put it to you this way. If your facing forward in the train, it would be on your right" (more laughter in the background) C:OOOOOOHHHH!!!!...At that point everyone on board the train was in stiches.......
In the NY Daily News Thursday July 8, page 30, is an article about the #1 and 9 trains and the A and C lines might not be back to normal for the morning rush hour.
When the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd returning from vacation.
Not quite related: When the power returns to the station, new batteries will have to be installed in every turnstile, the main computer in the station (the end turnstile-the metal wall to the left at the last turnstile) plsu the computer in the booth.
If the mayor does sue Con ED he should recover the overtime paid for shuttle buses and for transit expenses.
My office is implementing a four-day work week (extra hours four days, off the fifth), so that enables me to use a weekday to take my son on trains that don't run weekends (assuming it ever goes below 90). I recall that the Newark City Subway would only be running weekdays through the summer. Is this still the case? Are those 1940s-vintage cars we rode on our June 4 trip still in service, ringing bell and all? If so, that, along with the Slant-40-esque low front windows on PATH would make a fantastic trip for a three-and-a-half year old. Any info would be appreciated.
I also figure we'll go on the 'Q' again and hope there's no bellowing religious fanatic on it; however, track work is causing midday 'Q's to run local Brighton-bound from Prospect to Kings. This would take much of the edge off what makes the 'Q' great.
Those PCCs are still running weekdays 'till about 8 PM ... HOWEVER they're planning a two week shut down in August.
You'll now see more of them have Pantographs as well as trolley poles. May I suggest you get off PATH at Exchange Place to see how deep the cut is there, i.e. very long escalator. Also Hoboken has 20 NJT tracks, and a ferry slip. From there you can get a nice photo of Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
18 NJT tracks, but who's counting.
[18 NJT tracks, but who's counting.]
Our "Field Trip" tour guide said there were 20, but that 19 & 20 weren't being used for pass service now. We walked from 1 thru 16 or 17 then went to shoreline for photo of Manhattan. #1 is interesting, it's about 1/2 as long as the others and didn't look like it gets used very much. We also walked to the end of #2 to view the switches, see the old DL&W cornice, & get a nice view of the various equip. layed up. We also saw the new & old ferry slips.
Mr t__:^)
The tracks are numbers and numbers do go up to 20. Some tracks have been shortened and some are no longer used (19 and 20) ezxcept for specials such as the annual 614 steam excursion trips to Port Jervis
I wasn't kidding you guys about that rat, but I enjoyed reading all of the responses though. Take care.
In the Sunday Times there was an article in the Metro Section about improved transit services to the Rockaways, basically new high speed ferry service. There was a picture of an old pier on 169th street with an abandoned set of tracks leading to it.
Does anyone know what these tracks may have been a part of??
Thanks.
I think they were originally intended as a shuttle service to Flushing Meadow Park for the World's Fair(and then ultimately Shea Stadium). I think the project was aborted because of NYC budget difficulties and after 10 years of bureaucratic battles the plans for this service were officially terminated.
I thought this was a message board for my favorite subject: subways. But I see we have gone a little off the subject so I'll contribute my 2 pennies.
I just love how for the past five years and counting all you hear is complaining and moaning about this "awful" man named Rudy.
Well, he is not perfect (then again the only perfect people are already dead), but this "awful" man has reduced crime and made the city a better place to live. And spare me the police brutality statistics.
Most decent people I know may not be in love with the man, but they can at least give credit where credit is due.
And as for being paranoid, consider the fact that the man has cut into the business of some dangerous people (ie the mafia, drug dealers, and many more) maybe it is only reasonable that he should be a little security conscious. You never know when some nut will annoint him/herself as the John Wilkes Booth of the 20th century.
Maybe people won't fully realize how the city has changed until you get another loser in the mayor's office who does nothing and lets the the city AND subway system deteriorate during the 70's. Maybe we should get another person like we have had in the past who wants the job for 1 reason. He/she wants to have the title and all the benefits that go with it (like tickets to the US Open).
Since I live in North Carolina and New Jersey, not New York, I have tended to refrain from commenting about Rudy, but I will tell you that there has been a lot of discussion, pro and con, about Hizzoner the Mayor in prior threads. If you search back you'll see that all seven or eight sides of the issue have been discussed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yesterday evening on a rush-hour R-40M (L) I heard a racket just beyond the New Lots station. Upon leaving that station I saw the source of the din -- two EMF(?) LIRR-colored diesels pulling a train of combined oil and boxcars. It was headed north-east (toward Jamaica), and the time was approx. 6:20 p.m.
Obviously, the predicted increase in use of the Bay Ridge Line because of the breakup of Conrail has begun. Nice to see a big train of freight making it's way through the proud County of Kings.
Doug aka BMTman
[two EMF(?) LIRR-colored diesels ... pulling freight cars]
Weren't they NY&A Ry green ?
I saw a couple of the GP10s ? south of Amtrak Sunnyside 6/29.
Mr t__:^)
Hi, Thurston.
Yeah, it was a pair of the EMD's that LIRR has (or at least HAD used on their long-haul Montauk and/or Greenport runs before the new diesel-electric units arrived). I wasn't able to get their numbers, but I know LIRR doesn't have alot of them anyhow, so to ID them should be easy. And yes, they were in the standard LIRR blue w/white stripe (in this case with a wavy bend in the stripe toward the cab).
That had to have been the longest freight train I'd ever seen on the Bay Ridge. Judging from the push-pull configuration of the diesels, I would have to assume that the destination was other than Fresh Pond or Sunnyside, but points much further east.
BTW, I forgot to mention that every few weeks, NY & A will leave their yellow 'Railbox' boxcar over behind the Livonia station of the 'L', 'parked' on a decrepted siding.
Doug aka BMTman
News of the increased activity reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. Does anyone know what's going on at the Brooklyn Army Terminal yard?
There have been two cuts of covered hoppers there for about 2 weeks now, and there is also some construction going on at the SE corner of the yard -- right at the shoreline -- including a floating crane.
My first thought was that they might be installing a new floatbridge, but I guess it's just as possible that it's something related to the neighboring Owl Head sewage plant. Any information out there? Are the cars waiting for the construction to be finished?
I don't know but I imagine it has something to do with the New York Regional Rail Corp. (Cross Harbor Railroad), successor to the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal and New York Dock RR.
They have an exclusive contract with NSC for car floats across NY Harbor, have interchanges with NSC, SBK, NY&A and others and high hopes for the future.
With any available time (and weather permitting) I plan to investigate the Bush Terminal rail yards. I will report on my findings. (The visit will also serve me well to 'scout' out the area should a late summer railfan trip materialize).
Doug aka BMTman
Why, at the Times Square stop, of the Grand Central Shuttle is there a Track 1, a Track 3, and a Track 4, but no Track 2??
[Why, at the Times Square stop, of the Grand Central Shuttle is there a Track 1, a Track 3, and a Track 4, but no Track 2??]
It has to do with the origins of the Shuttle. It was built as part of the IRT mainline in 1904, running from City Hall to the Upper West Side, and as such had four tracks. Completion of the IRT "H" pattern some years later meant that the Grand Central - Times Square section was no longer part of the mainline. As a result, the section was converted to shuttle use, without need for four tracks. This later resulted in elimination of Track 2 as a through-running track.
Times Square was a local stop. So to use three tracks for the shuttle, they needed to build a platform over one of the former express tracks.
Was there also a trackway in the corridor going from the Times Sq. Station to Grand Central?
It's obvious from the construction of the current walkway East of the Grand Central end of the Shuttle that it did extend a bit East.
I can't find the information on this site right now (I'm sure it's there - Dave can you point out where?), but the Grand Central end of the Shuttle was planned at one time to be located closer to the other lines than it currently is. When the line was severed in 1918 from the original IRT mainline and made a shuttle, the intention was to create a new station closer to the Lexington Avenue line for the Shuttle. Trackways were created (as I recall, the original trackway for the IRT dropped grade right beyond the present station) that would have resulted in a two-track terminal station. It was quickly realized, from the passenger volume using the shuttle, that this wasn't going to be sufficient, the trackways were covered over with wood, and the existing station was left alone. Eventually the trackways were filled. Until a few years ago you could see the outline in the floor of where the trackways were located; I think that's all been obscured now, but I haven't looked in a while so they might still be visible and I just don't realize it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it's in the "Disused and Abandoned Stations" area of this website.
Regards,
subfan
Thanks - for some reason I didn't check Brennan's pages. For the benefit of anyone else following this thread, it's an offsite link from here, at Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't been on the shuttle in a while (I use the 7 when I need to go between the IRTs and am not in a hurry), but i believe the hallway has been tiled. Even if it hasn't, it will soon be.
Read this site! You'll learn a lot about such things.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A 1928 drawing for GCT shows the Lexington Line column work. In the current walkway between the Lex and Shuttle, it shows two IRT stub tracks adjacent to a single raised platform. Where one now changes elevation on a ramp near the Lex, is on the original ramp for that purpose. The two stubs connected to the shuttle tracks 3 & 4 with turnouts. I don't know anything about the actual operation or its duration.
According to the history posted elsewhere on this site, there were plans to extend the shuttle down the corridor closer to the Lexington Ave. line, but these plans were never actually implemented, because they decided that two tracks for the shuttle provided insufficient capacity, and there wasn't room to extend three tracks.
The trackways that had been built down the current corridor were therefore covered over, and it became the walkway it is today, without ever having seen actual train service.
There was a plan put forth as part of the "H" System construction to utilize the two north tracks of for the shuttle and the two south tracks for the Flushing Line. To this end trackways and a single island platform were constructed east from the present bumping blocks to the Contract III Grand Central Station. At the time (1918) this was being done passengers transfered between the Contract I and Contract III station via the upper passageway which at that time was within the fare control zone.
This extended station for the shuttle was never used and the trackways were boarded over and later filled with concrete.
There were at least two reasons for this plan not being implemented.
A) nothing short of a cog railway could get the Flushing Line trains up from their level to the level of the shuttle.
B) A two track shuttle with a single island platform would have been overwhelmed by the heavy traffic as was already in evidence in 1918 so the decision was made to build platforms over track 2 at Times Sq and GCT and utilize three tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR334
At what station in the New York City Subway System are you at if there are 2 downtown trains pulling out of the station but headed in exact oposite directions??
53rd and 7th.
How long was one trip on the C from B.116 to Bedford Park Blvd back in the day?
1 hour and 40 minutes. If you had the displeasure of doing it on an old R10 you ears would be ringing by the time you hit Yankee Stadium.
BTW, I think that old CC route is the only line toever serve all 4 boro's (Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and the Bronx)
The regular C did not serve the 4 boroughs?
Yes, until 92 when it was permanently cut back to Euclid Ave. and replaced with the present day shuttle.
How do you prononce it? BOO-RAY or BURRRR??????????
I have heard:
Bure-ray (as in puray)
Bure-ree
Bure (as in pure)
(I think the last onhe is the correct pronounciation)
But I never heard BOO-RAY or BURRRR
Which reminds me of the great debate among those who ride the Purple (Evanston) Line here in Chicago (or at least myself and my sister): how do you pronounce "Noyes" (one of the stops on the line, of course)? Is it "noise" or "no-yez"?
Before you answer, Chicagoans pronounce the name of Devon street as "de-VAHN" not "DE-vuhn" so the obvious answer may not be the right one. (^;
Oh John if you rode buses years back you might have heard "Gay-tee" and "Sky-lur"--two well known German authors honored by streets on the near North Side. On the other hand perhaps Todd can give the common version of "Bo-doyn" When I lived in NY it was "Hoyt-skimmer-horn"
You mean it's not "Skimmer-horn"?
It's "Skermer-horn". And the station walls don't mention "Schermerhorn" - just "Hoyt".
Wayne
In Bah-stin we say "Bow-din" with a bit more emphasis on the 'bow' than the 'din.' But hey, I'm a Noo Yawkah at heart... in fact writing this from CBS H/Q at 51 W. 52 St! In just a few short hours I'll be off the air, back underground, and enjoying listening to various renditions of "Watch Da Clozin Dawz."
Speaking of which, I rode on two trains yesterday that had terrific conductor announcements. One was courtesy of one our SubTalk regulars on the R. The second, on the Q, made the standard between-station announcement, then followed it up with, "Once again ladies and gentlemen, we are now entering West 4th Street!" Of course, I would have added the current temperature :-)
I have heard by various conductors:
-ROSE-velt vs. ROOSE-velt
-COR-tel-you vs. Cor-TEL-you
-Van WICK vs. Van WYKE
-ZER-a-ga vs. Zer-EE-ga
-DIKE-man vs. DICK-man
-INTERVAL instead of Intervale
-THROOP vs. TROOP
-Grand Avenue/NEWTON (as in Fig)
-HEW-sten vs. HOW-ston
-SOMETHIN' vs. Sutphin
-Mont-ROSS vs. Mont-ROSE
Don't even get me started on Kosciusko! (I took that spelling right off the map.)
Not MTA-related, but some 5 p.m. traffic reporter (Channel 4, I think) advised us of an accident on the WAN-TAG Parkway near Jones Beach.
-
That's KOSCIUSZKO (pronounced ka-SHOO-shko). And I've heard an announcer or two call out "SUFFERIN' Boulevard"
Next time I'm on the J I'll check, but I think the station sign has the "z" in Kosciuszko.
Wayne
WAN-TAG? Is that a new One tag system to combine all of the electronic toll collection in the US? Like I-Pass, EZ-Pass, E-Pass, Fast Lane, M-Tag?
Good one :) i really like that
try my stop
Bure -RE vs. bure
I think "B'you-ray" (Bure-Ray) is the correct pronunciation.
Some time ago I saw "Buhre-Crosby Avenue" on a non-TA issue map - did this sign ever appear in the station?
Wayne
No. The station has always been Buhre Avenue. In fact it was only until a few years ago that the TA added the additional names to its maps. The only station on the Pelham Line to actully receive new signs to go along with the new name is Morrison-Soundview Avenues.
I spent the very early part of my childhood (1950's) in that area and the station was only called Soundview Avenue.
It's "Byoor" Avenue. There is a street called Burr Ave. not too far away though - it runs from Pelham Parkway South almost to the Pelham Bay Park subway station. The eastbound Bx12 bus runs the length of Burr Ave.
A better question might be why the station is called Buhre Ave. rather than Crosby Ave. Buhre is a narrow side street, Crosby is a major shopping street. Both intersect Westchester Ave. (route of the #6 train) at the same point.
Yes but the entrance is on that side
Im right now constucting my versio of the 2Av line. So far it will consists of these lines: J,P,W, and Z. Each of these lines travel to the Bronx. One line to Coop City. One to the Country Club area. Finally the express/local service to Williamsbridge via Third Av. More to follow.................
P-2Av Local: Houston St---Baychester Av/Coop City, Bx.
J-2Av Express/Third Av Local: Jamaica Ctr---E.233/Laconia Av, Bx
W-2Av local/Bway Express via 63St: Whitehall St----Country Club, Bx.
Z-2Av Express/Third Av Express: Jamaica Ctr---Gun Hill Rd, Bx.
Z-" " " " " " " " " " " " Houston St---Gun Hill Rd, Bx.(Middays,Weekends)
Stations to follow........................
I made up the 8 and 9 which started at the old 3rd Ave El station at Gun Hill Road, went over to the Metro North, ran it its right of way until Fordham Road, went undeground, followed 3rd Avenue down to the river, went under it, and then went down 2nd Avenue to Houston Street, continued on to Chrystie Street, then onto the Bowery, then onto Worth, turned under Hammil Place to Centre Street and met up with the Lexington Avenue IRT. I made the line as an IRT line, not an IND/BMT one. It hooks up with the Lexington Avenue Line north of Brooklyn Bridge. The 8 is a local at all times, 9 is express and runs from 5:30 AM to 9 PM M-F. Stations are as follows:
* indicates 9 stops at this station
** indicates only 9 stops at this station
(A, B, 1, 2) are available transfers
All other stations are 8 only
Gun Hill Road* (2, 5)
Bronx River Parkway*
204th Street
NY Botanical Garden (Moushlou Parkway)
Fordham Road*
184th Street
E Tremont Avenue*
Claremont Parkway
169th Street
162nd Street
156th Street
149th Street* (2, 5)
138th Street (6)
125th Street*
116th Street
106th Street
96th Street
86th Street*
79th Street
72nd Street
61st Street* (B, N, Q, R)
53rd Street (E, F)
42nd Street* (7)
34th Street*
23rd Street
14th Street* (L)
8th Street
Houston Street (F)
Grand Street (B, D, Q)
Chatham Square
Brooklyn Bridge* (4, 5, 6)
Fulton Street** (2, 3, 4, 5, A, C, J, M, Z)
Wall Street** (4, 5)
Bowling Green** (4, 5)
Well I had intended it to be an IRT line but, I am trying to work with what is already out there................
Here's my idea:
From underneath the present day E180th St. station
the new line would run underneath 180th st, turning
on to 3rd Ave, with stops at Crotona Ave, Claremont
Pkwy, E169th St, E163rd St, E149th St (with a
transfer to the 2/5) and E138th St (with a transfer
to the 6). This line would be 2 tracks only. The
northern end would be connected to the Unionport
yard and it would be converted to Division B
standards. The Metro-North ROW is needed presently
and shouldn't really be taken over by the subway.
The line would continue under the Harlem River to
125th and second, which would be a four track
station and the northern terminal for all 2nd Ave
locals (like 168th on the west-side IND). The line
would then assume a normal express/local
configuration until it reached 72nd/2nd. The
stations would be: 110th/2nd, 96th/2nd, and
86th/2nd. All these would be local stops, and 72nd
would be express. South of 72nd a 2 track branch
would leave at 63rd and connect into the BMT B'way
line (like the B/D branch into the 53rd st line
south of 59th). The line would then continue down
to Houston and 2nd, with a transfer to the 6th Ave.
line. The stations would be: 57th/2nd (local), 50th
and 2nd (local), 42nd and 2nd (express, and a
connecting tunnel to Grand Central and the 4, 5, 6,
7, and S lines), 34th/2nd (express) 23rd/2nd
(local), 14th and 2nd (local, with a transfer to the
L at the 3rd Ave. station) and E4th st. (local).
At Houston/2nd, the line would split, with the
express tracks turning west into Delancy St and
connecting to the present day J/M line at Essex St.
The line would then continue over the Willy B to
Brooklyn and Queens. The stations along the J and M
lines would have to be extended for the use of 600
ft. trains. 75 ft. subway cars would have to be
banned from these lines because of some tight
curves, especially at Crescent. St. The J, M and Z
would then become the new 2nd Ave expresses. This
would have a huge benefit for JMZ riders by having a
direct link to midtown. It might also ease crowding
on the E because the new JZ line would probably draw
even more people away from the Queens Blvd. line.
The local tracks would continue south from Houston
St., turn onto Chrystie St. and link up with the
6th. Ave. line at Grand St, with the station being
expanded to 4 tracks and 2 island platforms. The 2nd
Ave. local would be against the wall and the 6th
Ave. express coming of the Manhattan Bridge would be
in the middle. After Grand St. the tracks would
continue along Chrystie until Canal St, where it
would curve east to connect to the old, abandoned
Nassau St. Loop tracks that end just short of the
bridge. The locals would then continue along these
tracks to Chambers St. and continue along Nassau to
Broad St. This would integrate the new line to all
divisions of the BMT (Southern and Eastern).
Service would be as follows:
J 2nd Ave Express:
Jamaica Center to 180th St. via Willy B and 2nd Ave
express tracks, all times. Local in Manhattan
nights.
K 2nd Ave Local:
125th and 2nd Ave to 95th st/Brooklyn via 2nd Ave local,
Nassau St line, Montague St. tunnel and 4th Ave.
Local, Weekdays 5:30 AM to 10:00 PM. Other times it
would terminate at Broad St. except for 12:00 AM to
5:30 AM, where there would be no service.
M 2nd Ave Local:
Metropolitian Ave to 125th/2nd via Myrtle Ave line,
Willy B, and 2nd Ave. local, weekdays from 6 AM to 9 PM. Other times as a shuttle from Metro to
Myrtle/Bway.
Q Broadway/2nd Ave Express:
From Claremont Pkway (that station would be 3 tracks
for the Q to use to terminate there) along the Bronx
portion of the line, then down the 2nd Ave. Express
tracks to 72nd./2nd. Then along 63rd. St and down
the Broadway express tracks and Brighton express
tracks to Brighton Beach, 6AM to 9 PM. No service
all other times.
Z 2nd Ave. Express:
Identical to J, rush hours only, skip-stop in peak
direction past Myrtle/Bway.
So the new line would have the J, Z, and Q running
in the Bronx and down the express tracks, the M and
K running local from 125th, with the Q branching off
at 72nd and the M switching over to the express at
Houston St. he K would continue running to the
Grand St. stop and then along the Nassau Line to
Brooklyn.
Of course this plan would take 25 years to build and
cost more than the Apollo program that put a man on
the moon. But I think it's a credible plan.
Well, I like yours idea. It is less complicated than mine..... Im still developing stations. My idea will be based on the original second IND plan............
Just drop the new third avenue bronx line to university Avenue. Connections with the D (new terminal at Gun Hill Road) and no. 4 lines. Besides 6 at 138th Street and 2 and 5 at 149th Street. What do you think? Don't forget, it will be elevated on third.
what about extending the D from 205th streeet along Gun Hill road to a terminal in Co-Op City?
Why don't they just bring the D over to the Gun Hill Road 2/5 line as a new terminal station?
I recently saw a pic of the R110B with a Z sign on it. What is the current roll sign on the R110A and R110B????
IIRC,the R110A doesnt have any roll signs. It's all electronic.
Those automatic signs are impossible to read from a distance. I don't even know why the MTA likes them so much. You can't read them and they keep changing every second or so from the destanation to the avenue of service and back again. I can't differ the C and E at 34th\8th until I see the side of the train AND it has slowed down. And LED displays also don't have the circle around the letter so on Queens Blvd, you have to see the color on the front or pray that the destanation sign stops directly in front of you. Maybe the cars after the R142 and R143 will go back to the old signs like on the R62 and R68 but not showing both destanations at once.
There goes another fan of the R32 bulkhead "signs" :o) No matter how much Windex you use on the glass you STILL can't read 'em. I keep remembering the "O" train (#3918) which was really a "Q" but you couldn't see the tail through the glass.
Wayne
They won't go back. The end signs will most likely always be roll signs (and the R142 will have a roll sign on the end) but the electronic signs offer way to much in flexability as well as cost savings if they decide to do mass route restructuring. I would expect that LEDs would do a much better job of it then LED does, however. And since you really only need 2 colors for the IRT, red and green, LEDs could be used for the side signs as well.
Additionally, they could further modify the system to accept remote updates, so if a train is re-routed, a tranciver could change the signs as the trains were detoured. Ah, in a perfect world.
You can't really read the signs on the other cars to well either, until the train slows down, or from a distance. And they don't change that fast, I think it's about 3.5 seconds or so between phases.
-Hank
What about purple for the 7?
I guess they would just use red for that. For purple you would need blue, and even though those are out, they are more expensive. I do hope they use them on the BMT/IND cars, which have the blue 8th Av line and the gray (R+G+B at half power) L
I hear the 7 isn't getting any new R110A cars but they will get some (if not all) redbirds from the 2, 4, 5, and 6.
That is right! It should stay that way unless the TA exercises the option for extra cars.
They already got the redbird from the 6... Better said the old ones
I've still saw them on the 6 last time I was in New York. I just can't differ the R26, R28, R29, R33, and R36 because they are so much alike. I also saw them still on the 4 from my seat at Yankee Stadium (I had a perfect view of home plate and the subway! :-))
Here's the unit numbers:
R26: 7750-7859
R28: 7860-7959
R29: 8570-8805
R33: 8806-9305
R33WF: 9306-9345
R36WF: 9346-9523 and 9558-9769
R36ML: 9524-9557
You're right; they're almost indistinguishable from one another, except for WF cars which have the picture windows.
Wayne
I heard that they are getting the R-62s. I hope this is the case as the R-33WF must LEAVE PASSENGER SERVICE NOW!!!
Arent the builders for the R110A supposed to make a special 9 car train(3 line) and a 11 car train(7 line)?
Not actually special, just enough cars to be configured that way.
-Hank
One day I rode it to Lefferts, and they were having problems with it, so they took it out of service. I ran to the front to see them change the sign to "Not in service". I saw an orange A (for 6th Av. service to Brighton Beach to replace the Q. This was proposed in the early '90's, and it's on the R-44/46 electronic codes.), a gray K (proposed Canarsie skip stop), and then the train pulled out, so I didn't see the whole sign. I also don't remember the order.
What as the logic in proposing a 6th Ave. A train to Brighton Beach? I do remember during Septembr 1989 the A train was replaced by the Q from Columbus Circle to 207th St. for a few weeks bcause of a major watermain break near 42nd St. and an ensuing problem with asbestos. But that was more of an emergency situation (A trains had to terminate at Penn Station), not really a serious idea ...
That became the model of the severe cutbacks the TA tried to implement in the early 90's. They were going to completely eliminate C service, make the B run to 21st at all times, and make the A the local, and the Q the exp. to 207th. When people objected for nostalgic reasons, they changed the express to an orange A to Brighton and propsed an H beginning at 34th St that would replace the A to the Rockaways. (50th st riders to CPW would have to change from the E to the D at 53rd.) But noone went for this either, and they gave up on the whole thing.
Wrote an article for the AVA newsletter, The Farebox, for those that don't know it's a token collector's group. Yesterday got a snail-mail copy of a July 2nd article from the Washington Post by Rob Pegoraro from a fellow AVA member.
Talks about failed attempts at Manhattan and Atlanta (assume they ment the debit SMART cards issued thru a bank for upper West Siders a couple of years ago).
Also:
- "13,300 Smar'Trip cards have been sold so far."
- Good for Metro trains, parking and morning coffee.
- "Loans" you one last ride when you use up the money. I guess the turnstile beeps or otherwise informs you of this.
- Next year expands to buses.
- They "hope" to expand to Dash, Ride-On buses, Virginia Ry Express, MARC and toll roads ...himmmmm, MTA operates TBTA bridges now, maybe the E-Z-Pass will be replaced by a Smart Card good underground and on the highways ????
- You can "register" your SmarTrip card at www.wmata.com to ensure that if its lost or stolen you can stop someone else useing it and get a replacement. W-O-W why didn't one of the suits at MTA think of that?
BTW: Same turnstile/farebox mfg at Washington & NYC.
Copywrite Disclaimer: Didn't quote much text & identified publ & author.
Mr t__:^)
- They "hope" to expand to Dash, Ride-On buses, Virginia Ry Express, MARC and toll roads ...himmmmm, MTA operates TBTA bridges now, maybe the E-Z-Pass will be replaced by a Smart Card good underground and on the highways ????
E-Z Pass should not be replaced but the smart cards should be integrated into that system. That would make the most sense. One account for all travel needs. Like Mobil's speedpass, which offers choice in methods (on car or on key-ring) people could carry around an E-Z/Smart-Card Pass.
Remember, the idea behind E-Z Pass would be one service for the entire North East corridor. Of course, only New York State and parts of NJ, DE and VA are using it to date.
EZ-Pass? Spare us! I dread the installation on the GSP. I've heard too many horror stories about double charges with EZ-Pass to ever want it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have used E-Z pass now for over a year on several different roadways. It is great. I have also yet to get a violation flag added to my account. For me it has saved a lot of time, not to mention money -- especially going to Atlantic City via the AC Expy. There will always be horror stories.
But first, at least for NJ, they need to get the sensors installed.
I believe that Maryland is getting into the "E-Z Pass" system. We now have M-TAG (Same system? Different Name),it is really a time-saver. Vehicles (right now cars/light trucks, but eventually......) just zip right through the reserved lanes. All tollbooths on the two tunnels (Harbor and Ft. McHenry) have M-TAG readers, but only one lane per direction is reserved.
There was an article in our local paper (Baltimore Sun, AKA "Fishwrap") touting the system and noting that soon MD would join NY,NJ, etc. in one system.
I'm still leery of the whole thing. Images of Big Brother come to mind. I don't like the potential for the government to track my comings and goings - I know they have the means to do much of that already, but we the citizens don't need to give them any more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since I'm not a criminal, I really don't care if the government knows where I go, how I go and how much I spend. And since I'm not a criminal I don't see any reason with the millions of people there are, that the government should choose to track my patterns for kicks.
Most Soviets weren't criminals, either, but the KGB still tracked them like they were. I view EZ-Pass in the same light.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a person who pays tolls everyday on the PA turnpike I look forward to E-Z Pass. Waiting in line behind people who haven't a clue as how to use a turnpike is a pain. The same goes for having to make sure you have the exact change. It is not required on the PA turnpike but it makes things go faster. Everyone who is worried about the goverment using it to track you, did you ever think it might give you an alibi? If you are going to commit a crime disable the E-Z Pass and get a ticket
It's nice that I don't live in a totalitarian state that has a committee of government safety (KGB). If you want to believe that the government is out to get you, that's fine, but I am not going to buy you that new tin foil hat you need.
Anon_e_mouse: that is the great thing about living in the US... it is your choice to use the service or not. I am against it being mandatory, but I am sure happy the service is there.
And besides, there are already many other ways in place to track us in everyday life, right down to those shopping club cards.
We have "Fastlane" for use on the Mass Turnpike and Boston Harbor tunnels/bridge. Allegedly it will be compatible with EZ Pass later this year. But the system I use to go from Boston to Seashore (on the Maine Turnpike) is a very different technology, so I have to have two transponders in my vehicle. And the Hampton tolls, on I-95 in NH is coin only. It would terrific to have some commonality here!
The SmarTrip card doesn't need an addfare transaction if you don't have enough money. The faregate says, for example, BL: 1.10 VALUE: -0.05. You won't be able to enter the system until there is at least +0.05 on the card. In the example above, when you added money, if you put in a 5, you'd only get 4.95.
Metrobus and the other bus services in the area will be getting the targets sometime in the future (I heard a few years), but I'm not sure if MARC and the tollroads will have it as a payment option.
Also, you can get more than coffee with the card. Numerous stores in the DC area take part in a program (I think they call it passavers) where you get a discount if you show your metro pass.
The Washington Post article was by a "Staff Writer", but at the bottom was a plug for WMATA which made me think it was drafted by someone in the transit agency. Thanks for the additional input.
Mr t__:^)
At what station are you at in the new york city subway system if there are two downtown trains departing the station but heading in exact oposite directions???
7th Ave (Manhattan) & 53rd ST. D / E depart in opposite directions heading downtown.
--Mark
The B also goes on the D track when the Q operates.
7th/53rd.
Where are you on the system if four different northbound trains are departing in opposite directions?
stumped? where? can 4 trains depart in oposite directions?
Atlanic Avenue??
It's a single station complex. Two northbound trains depart in one direction. Two in the opposite direction. Help any?
Coney Island, of course. The 'B' and 'N' depart in the northerly direction; the 'D' and 'F' depart in the southerly direction and immediately make a sharp turn east.
OK, so which line travels through the same station twice on one run? (Major trick question)
< OK, so which line travels through the same station twice on one run? (Major trick question) >
The D Line. 7th Avenue (again). In Brooklyn, on Flatbush Ave. In Manhattan, on 53rd Street.
Plus, the D made 7th Avenue twice when it used to run down Culver.
OK, here's another: we know several streets/avenues, that are in both Manhattan and the Bronx (Broadway, 3rd Avenue, etc.) Name one that is in Manhattan and Brooklyn (not a trick question).
Fulton St.
I would also say Grand, but Grand St. Bklyn is further north than Manh. (they may still have been connected by a ferry at one time, or something.
Also Broadway....remember....the J used to the Broadway(Brooklyn) Line....
< Also Broadway....remember....the J used to the Broadway(Brooklyn) Line >
I meant the same street, not the same street name. Fulton Street is the only one I know of where the Brooklyn street was intended as a continuation of the Manhattan one (and the two streets were connected by the Fulton Ferry).
Broadway Brooklyn is arguably an extension of Delancey Street (does anyone actually call it Schiff Parkway?)
[Broadway Brooklyn is arguably an extension of Delancey Street (does anyone actually call it Schiff Parkway?)]
Schiff Parkway? Was that an old name for Delancey Street?
< Schiff Parkway? >
It's a newer name (30's?) to honor one of the prominent (and I think philanthropic) Schiff family. Dorothy Schiff was publisher of the New York Post, when it was a liberal paper.
I think it showed on some Hagstrom maps, but I'm not sure if the name appears/appeared on any street signs.
You mean kind of like the Belt Pkwy which is also called the Lief Ericson drive on some maps but not on street signs?
--Mark
My understanding is that there was a fight to have the Varranzano Bridge named after Lief Erikson as compensation for the bridge's construction so vitally upsetting the community of Little Norway.
And to think that today you could probably count the number of people of Norweign descent living in Bay Ridge on your hands!
Bay Ridge is now predominately, Irish, and Italian, with a growing smidgen of Asian and Pakistani for good measure.
Indeed, the Belt Parkway goes by THREE different names according to a Hagstrom of the 5 boroughs. As it goes through the Bay Ridge community it is known as Lief Ericson Drive; from there going East (through Sheepshead Bay and Plumb Beach) it is known as Shore Parkway; the rest of the way out to JFK/Sunrise Hwy. merge it is known as The Belt Parkway. For my tastes it should officially be renamed Shore Parkway throughout to avoid confusion for a very practical reason: IT BORDERS THE BROOKLYN SHORELINE and in no way acts as a "belt" which would indicate a run through the middle of the borough.
Anyone agree?
Doug aka BMTman
Going from memory.
There is no piece of road called "Belt Parkway." As constituted in Moses' time, it was known as the "Belt System", popularly "Belt Parkway", an incomplete "belt" which did wrap around most of Brooklyn and Queens as follows:
From the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel to approx 65th Street: GOWANUS PARKWAY; from there to the junction of Conduit Blvd.: SHORE PARKWAY, where it parallels Conduit Blvd.: SOUTHERN PARKWAY (no "STATE"); the piece that turns north up to the junction with Southern State: LAURELTON PARKWAY; from there to a point east of LaGuardia Airport: CROSS ISLAND PARKWAY; from there to the Triborough Bridge: GRAND CENTRAL PARKWAY.
I'm sure some road buff could correct me, but I think that's about right. It was a belt in the sense of girdling the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens.
My grandparents told me when I was young that the original name of the "Belt Parkway" was the "Circumferential Highway."
Hi, Todd.
Ya know, that name sounds vaguely familiar -- I'm not expert, but you might be right there.
Doug aka BMTman
< My grandparents told me when I was young that the original name of the "Belt Parkway" was the "Circumferential Highway." >
Say that three times fast with a Brooklyn accent!
That would be the 'coy-cum-fuh-rentyal hoyway' which of course should not be confused with Choych Avenyuh.
How would it sound with a Bahston accent?
Could you imagine Neal Busch's traffic report ....
Drivers in Brooklyn, we're flying over the Circumferential Highway now; there's a disabled van in the left lane at Bay Parkway, keep right ....
Forgeddaboudit!!
--Mark
But Mark! I still get confused when Neal (or Tommy K!) mentions the Jackie Robinson. Call me nostalgic, but it's always going to be the Interboro in my mind. (Gee, I wonder if a Hippo R-68 could negotiate the curves on the Interboro :-)
Grand central Parkway????
Grand Central Parkway runs from Triborough Bridge, past LaGuardia, dips down to Kew Gardens, then runs easterly, where it becomes Northern State Parkway at the Nassau County border.
Paul, thanks for the info re: 'Belt Parkway'
Yeah, looks like we'll need a site called RoadTalk ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Road buffs have many fine sites. both locally and nationally.
I recommend Steve Anderson's www.nycroads.com as a good jumping off point.
I'm sorry to say that in depth, sophistication and variety, many of the road sites put many railfan sites to shame. But definitely not www.nycsubway.org, the JoeKorNer, and several others most of us are familiar with.
How about Lexington Avenue?
I'll throw in one of my own:
An E train and a G train depart from Continental Ave. at the same time and are headed in the same direction. Assuming the E train continues onto Brooklyn, it could meet up with that same G train again, yet both trains would now appear to be heading in the opposite direction. At which station would this phenomenon occur?
Fourth ave(if the G is coming off the relay position) and Smith-9 st.Incidentally, whenever I worked the G line, I noticed if you made a connection with an F at Queens Plaza,that same F train would be your follower between Bergen st and Smith-9 sts.
When the E did go to Brooklyn, the meet could have been at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Hoyt-Schremehon Station (I doubt I have the spelling right).
Since they go around loops and there are no crew changes, making both legs part of one run, take your pick: 1/9 Bway local or 6 Lexington local.
Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue???
Wayne
Help me out here guys, I must be getting old or something. I watched the "French Connection" last night with my wife. For the life of me, I couldn't remember the kind of train involved in the big chase scene or even what line it might have been on. I guess I've just lived out in Floral Park too long. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I've got a few ideas, but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong.
The line depicted was the West End (B) line. It runs through the Borough Park and Bensonhurst sections of Brooklyn over New Utrecht Ave. and then terminates at Coney Island. However, if memory serves me correctly, the runaway train collides with an erroneously marked 'N' train (the Sea Beach Line).
It is still one of the classic train-chase sequences of all time.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks for the information Doug. Now at least I know. Later, Salvo.
Hear hear: Here is the correct info regarding "French Connection":
The line depicted was the West End ("B") line.
The train was an R42, #4572-4573 (and others), which ran along the "B" tracks but was signed up (incorrectly) as "N". Technically, those cars were being used on the "N" at the time (#4550-4595). #4572 was the lead motor. These cars were relatively new and quite clean, this is one reason why they were chosen. (this info courtesy of Steve B)
The train which was "hit" was an R32, unit number unknown. There may not have even been an actual collision, but the movie does give the impression of one. You can clearly see the "B" sign on the last car as the runaway approaches it. It was parked on the center track just north of the 62nd Street station.
Wayne
The "crash" with the R-32 was filmed with the R-42 train backing away from the R-32. Then the film was replayed "in reverse" and the appropriate sound effects added. Pretty effective result!
I'm willing to bet the brakes were thrown into emergency stop to simulate the actual impact with the parked train. The bad guy ends up busting out a door window when his shoulder crashed into it.
There are a few inconsistencies/goofs in the chase sequence:
When Gene Hackman first arrives on the platform at Bay-50th St., the approaching train blasts its horn twice, as if it wasn't going to stop (it did). The cars are R-42s; however, when the scene cuts to the train passing by the stationary camera as it pulls into the station, the cars are R-32s.
After the bad guy boards the train and the doors close, the scene cuts to the motorman's booth, and two loud buzzes can be heard. As we all know, this normally isn't done once the train leaves its terminus.
During the scene in which Hackman has reached the intersection of Stillwell Ave. and 86th St., where the other car smashes into his LeMans, the train directly above him consists of R-32s. However, the train shown in an overhead shot before that scene consists of R-42s.
There are several clips with the camera pointing straight ahead through the railfan window. In some of them, the train is on the local track; in others, it's on the express track.
R-42s 4572-4573 didn't have B signs, which is why they were sporting an N during the movie.
I'm sorry to dissappoint you, but in a conversation with Martin Scorcese (part of the Actor's Studio on BRAVO), he intimated that the sound effects were added in a studio, and the emergency stop sequence was completely staged. The door window was replaced with "candy" for the sequence, which is standard fare in FX when broken glass is called for. Again, the crash was simulated by playing a reversing train in reverse at higher playback speed. The actors were reacting to nothing, as the train was stationary when the interiors were filmed. It is not unusual to find many inconsistencies apparant only to us rail fans in these films (see the many previous threads here on "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"). Directors usually patch together many different snippets of film, shot over many hours and sometimes days, for an action sequence like this. If you look really closely, you will even see the same sequence repeated over and over again ala the chase scene from "Bullit". All of this does not reduce the effectiveness of this chase scene, which is regarded widely as one of the greatest, if not THE GREATEST chase sequence of all time!
Car #4572 was the lead motor going northbound on the B (West End) line. It had an end sign displaying an 'N'. I've heard several reasons for this including 'The director wanted the route sign to stand out' or 'it was just an oversight'. The train it collided with was obviously an R-32 on the middle track north of the Bay Pkwy. station.
Trivia question: The conductor in the movie died during the chase sequence. What happened to him in real life?
Side sign said "N" as well. #4550-4595 were the R42s of the "N" back in those days (#4596-4695 were "A"/"AA"/"B", #4696-4807 were "D", etc.). I think the "crash scene" was up by 62nd Street because you see the cars chasing each other down 86th then making the sharp right up New Utrecht Avenue then continue a ways.
Wayne
Anybody know where I can get a plastic model or kit of a PCC car? Thanks.
In HO and N scale Bachmann has some pretty crude models (although the HO model has had the mold recut so it's better than the original). At one time a firm called Q-Car was producing cast resin body kits, including Brooklyn 1001, that fit the Bowser mechanism. Bowser also produces complete metal kits that require quite a bit of filing but look pretty decent when you get through (I've got several, as well as one Q-Car). In 1:50, Corgi produces a non-operating die-cast PCC that is actually correct for Philadelphia; it comes in many different paint schemes (mine is Pacific Electric - nice but the car isn't like any the PE owned).
And there may be others - plus lots of brass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1:50, Corgi produces a non-operating die-cast PCC that is actually correct for Philadelphia
And they have one for Toronto, too. Very nice, I might add.
--Mark
The Corgi 1/50th PCCs are Philadelphia (PTC), Boston (MTA), St. Louis (St L Public Service), Lionel City (no prototype), Pacific Electric, San Francisco (MUNI green and ivory), Cincinnati (nice, but has only one pole), Washington (DC Transit), Los Angeles (MTA green), and Toronto (TTC). There are at least three motorizing kits available, of varying desirability (one, for example, destroys the entire interior to make room for an upright motor--and it has no reversing unit).
One company makes an 'S' gauge motor and the cars look very good running on the narrower track--for the Los Angeles car (which was narrow gauge) it may actually be closer to prototype.
I'm hoping for Brooklyn--for me, preferably the Post-War green and silver rather than the Pre-War brown that's on 1001 at Branford, but both versions would be even better, and maybe even that one-car red and yellow experimental paint job that I only learned about two years ago). I'd also like to see Newark (PSNJ grey would be my preference, but red-white-and-blue would be o.k.).
Mike's Train House has produced Pittsburg and San Francisco PCCs in O gauge, with a DC Transit coming next. These are nice but ride much too high on their tinplate trucks.
Someone mentioned Q Car Company for any number of different models; MTS Imports (used to be Model Traction Supply, I think) will be bringing in Post-War Toronto, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh PCCs according to their ad in the August model magazines (Railroad Model Craftsman, for example--page 14). The train shows occasionally have someone selling cars from other manufacturers or earlier models now out of production.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
RE: the Corgi cars - IIRC, the only one that is prototypically accurate is the original Philadelphia car and scheme. All of the others, while very nice (a PE version is on my mantel) aren't accurate in that the window placement, length, or some other detail (in the case of my PE version, the real ones were double-ended!) is incorrect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there are any forty or fifty somethings subway enthusiasts out there, I need your help to prove to my eighteen year old son that there did used to be pinball arcades and orange juice stands in some of the busier stations. Based on what he knows of his lifetime, all subway stations have been filthy. It didn't used to be that way when I was young. You guys know what I mean. Thanks. Salvo.
Yea,14 th street had the strangest food smells coming from all the food stands,you could get pizza,hot dogs,all kinds of pop drinks and orange juce,some ethnic foods also,this was located in the concourse in the subway,is any still there today ?..........Karl M
I've had many a Nedick's Hot Dog and Orange Drink when changeing to the 14th St Canarsie Line from the "A" at Eighth Ave in the 1950's
Needick's was at many stations lncluding the Times Square Complex. Also there was a walk up Bank window on the mezzaniwen at the Borough Hall BMT/IRT Complex.
Time Square near the shuttle had some vendors(hot dogs pizza drinks)
Grand Central again from the shuttle thru walkway to Lex subway Food vendors I believe also a shoe shine stand and some clothing stores.
14st union square the passageway from lexington to BMT also lined with vendors.. and yes the aromas from the different foods were great!
Re:Walkway from Shuttle to Lex: In "The French Connection",Gene Hackman orders a grape drink at the stand at the end of Track #1 on the shuttle while tailing "Frog 1". Another good sequence from a great movie!
At the 86th Street Station on the "R" train, there's a flower shop in the station. Smells better than your average station. There's also the flower shop at 47th-50th St.
You're right. I passed thru 86th St. last week. It certainly does smell better than most stations. IIRC,there was another at 14th & 8th back in the '70's,along with a shop that sold nothing but neckties. At Times Sq. there was the record shop at the top of the ramp leading up from the northbound BMT platform. Someone also mentioned the pretzel booths;these were found on platforms and passageways in almost all major stations. In my yout',they were a source of quick,cheap food during some of my all day joyriding sessions.
Time Square near the shuttle had some vendors(hot dogs pizza drinks)
Grand Central again from the shuttle thru walkway to Lex subway Food vendors I believe also a shoe shine stand and some clothing stores.
14st union square the passageway from lexington to BMT also lined with vendors.. and yes the aromas from the different foods were great!
59 th lexginton ave local platform uptown Needicks or was it nathans the Florist both long gone...
How about the vending machines? They were everywhere. I remember penny gum in cardboard boxes, and soda machines where the cup fell from the top. When the cups ran out the machine ate your money.
Is there anything left today ? what has replaced it ?
The movie "The Warriors" depicted an arcade within the subway but it's not really a source to be trusted. Most of the scenes were filmed at Hoyt-Schermerhorn anyway.
-Dave
I read what you said about most of the scenes from The Warriors being filmed at Hoyt-Schemerhorn...there is one scene where they are running through the, or what is supposed to be, the 96th Street Station on the #1...in the scene, you can see an old-style 96th Street sign...was this scene also filmed at Hoyt?
The station with the 96th St. signs above the platforms is, in fact, Hoyt-Schermerhorn. As usual, they used one of the outer platforms and outer tracks. Other stations which can be seen are Union Square (all three lines which stop there are included, even a brief snippet of the Broadway line Union Square station; the "To 14th St. subway" sign used to be prominently displayed on the station pillars on the Broadway line) plus elevated stations on presumably the Myrtle Ave. line.
Trains were not marked with any consistency at all. One train had an M sign up front; another had a QB/local via bridge sign showing in the side route slot.
I watched this classic about two weeks ago and discovered that during one of the "96th Street" scenes there was a mezzanzine sign reading "Aqueduct Racetrack Special Trains" above a stairwell. This sounds very much like Hoyt-Schmerhorn. Also the train in which two of the characters are nearly run down by is the JFK Express, which ran through H-S.
The two-tone green wall tile and white-tiled pillars are a dead giveaway - the only station which has that combination of elements is Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Wayne
In the final Subway scenes where our heros have a fight in the toilet, just before a skater is seen coming down some ramps which are made out to be Union Square. I cant find these ramps at Union Square. Any ideas where it was shot.
Simon
Swindon UK
On the Canarsie Platform @Union Square there was a sft pretzel cart in PM rush circa 66-70.
Pinball arcades? The only I know of was at 42nd St./8th Ave., and it was outside the turmstiles. Were there ever pinball machines within the fare-paid area?
Orange juice stands, sort of. Nedick's. They had hot dog and orange drink (not juice) stands all over the city, especially at heavily trafficked spots like Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station. There was one within the fare-paid area of the subway at Roosevelt Ave. on the IND Queens Blvd. line. There were also hamburger stands on both ends of the 42nd St. Shuttle. I don't think those were Nedick's, but am not positive. Other stations that sold hot dogs were Columbus Circle (at two spots within the station!) and Broadway-East New York.
And don't forget that, in the 1960's (and probably earlier), there were vending machines that sold candy bars and soft drinks. The candy machines were purely mecahnical devices, so they had presumably been around for many years. There were machines along the walls that sold regular-size chocalate bars and other candy for a dime, and machines mounted on pillars that sold miniature chocalate bars for a nickel. The soda machines were of the kind that dispensed a cup, then filled it with seltzer and soda concentrate from two jets of liquid.
I remember playing in an arcade in the Roosevelt Avenue station in Jackson Heights. The last time I was there it was approximately nine years ago. Does anyone know if it still exists?
Yes, the arcade is still there - outside of the paid-fare zone, up one flight of stairs. There's also a barbershop, shoe repair, jewelery store, newsstand, pastry counter, and (during tax season) a tax-preparation service. All this is from memory but I think it's accurate... it's the corridor I use to get to/from the Q-33 bus which connects to LGA.
Oh yeah----I remember playing pool with my Dad at the Times Sq. staion platform and several tennis matches at the Shea Stadium station. Those were the gold old days with the MTA.
I can't believe all this hype over Sean O'Shea.
This guy used to have a job with the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the MTA as an associate director. He lost the job because instead of fighting for the MTA customer, he spent his work days pushing this wacky idea for an elevated train from 86th and B'way through central park and over to the east side. I remember being at a community forum and hearing him speak. He sure did know the subway but he was in over his head.
The July 1999 edition of The Map is now in distribution.
The changes (from May 1999) I have noted so far:
1) The box at the bottom regarding the 63rd St Service changes is gone.
2) The short note about the B & Q above the N/R line where it curved toward 60th St - is gone.
3) They corrected the routes shown in the balloon at Marcy Avenue.
It used to say J M Z now it just says J.
The best place to get the July Map? Where else - The Transit Museum Store in Grand Central.
The M is the only line at Marcy Ave, NOT the J. The J terminates at Myrtle Avenue.
Out of curiosity, is the C the only line at local stops on the Fulton Street IND and marked full time, are the 2 and 3 full time on Lenox Avenue, and is the balloon at Chambers and Fulton now only M and S (not J, M, Z)?
C is not an all time train but runs on Fulton St for most of the day. Service is between 6:30am and 10:30pm?????
Same thing applies to the 2 and 3 on Lenox. 2 is a 24 hour line. 3 runs during most of the day except for about 6 hours at night.
Yes the sign says M and S. However there is also directions on using alternate routes.....
The C was made bold on Fulton, but not the 2 or 3 0n Lenox, and not the J at Gates and Chauncey.
My mistake - it does say M not J. (I had just washed my hands and couldn't do a thing with them.
But the M and Z trains still stop there right?
No, only the M. Not the J or the Z.
Does any one know why the 77th Street IRT Station is at 77th and not 79th? Two blocks doesn't really make a difference to me but it would be nice to at least have a second exit between 78th and 79th open at least part time.
My old stop for work. I used to do volunteer work at Lenox Hill Hospital. MAYBE THATS WHY THERE IS A 77 ST STATION!!!!!!!!!
Lenox Hill Hospital is on 77 and Lex, right above the station......
BTW, Im just joking. Not screaming at you literally.........:):)
My guess is - when the Lex IRT was constructed north of Grand Central in 1918, the stations up to 96th St. closely resembled the parallel IRT 3d Ave. El one block east. The Lex stops are about 9 blocks apart, as were the 3d Ave el stops. Also, both have (had) nine stops from 59th to 125th inclusive.
Lex Ave - 59, 68, 77, 86, 96, 103, 110, 116, 125
3d Ave El - 59, 67, 76, 84, 89, 99, 106, 116, 125
86 and 125 were the original subway express stops (59 did not become an express stop till 1962); 106 and 125 were el express stops.
I was born at Lenox Hill Hospital, as were both of my sons - so I was always happy to find the 77th Street stop on the #6.
with the volume of people entering and exiting 77th st lex there should be another fare area (part time of course). I believe on the Downtown side R248(booth) has eight turnstiles the mezzanine area is cramped when going full tilt and a safety hazard in my opinion.
The biggest safety hazard at that station is the idiots who leap down the stairs and jump in the doors, because, after all, there are no more trains after this one.
Maybe it was a cost saving measure?
You are SO CORRECT !!
Lenox Hill Hospital does seem to be the most likely answer. There are wall mosaics in the station that refer to the hospital. Anyone know when Lenox Hill Hospital first opened on E. 77th St.?
Lenox Hill Hospital was opened there in the 1870s, but it was called the German Hospital until 1918. According to thier 140th anninversary brochure in 1996, when the property was purchased it was purchased at FOURTH (not Park yet) Avenue and 77 street.
When will the fantasy map available for downloading?
With the recent heatwaves, power outages, and independent electrical suppliers. Which companies serve electrical power to the MTA (Subways, LIRR, Metro North)in New York, NJtransit, and Metro North (New Haven line)? Also how exactly do the TAs buy their power? Is it a fixed rate (example: A flat rate for the whole year) or do they pay buy Kilowatt (or Megawatt)hour?
The TA is metered like anyone else. It's just a REAL BIG meter (or really many real big meters, of the same type as used at industrial plants). There are a number of different methods for calculating the actual electric bill that could be used; I don't know the details of how the TA's is calculated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ With the recent heatwaves, power outages, and independent electrical
suppliers. Which companies serve electrical power to the MTA (Subways,
LIRR, Metro North)in New York, NJtransit, and Metro North (New Haven
line)? Also how exactly do the TAs buy their power? Is it a fixed rate
(example: A flat rate for the whole year) or do they pay buy Kilowatt
(or Megawatt)hour? ]
Actually, they have a big transformer plugged into the wall at Jay St. Consumption appears on their normal Con-ed bill.
The TA purchases its electricity in bulk from the New York State Power Authority, a state-operated utility.
-Hank
In the NY Daily News Friday July 9, page 6, and the NY Post Friday July 9, page 10 are two article about which NYC trains are the best and which are the worst. In the NY Post article it also lets us know what some of the lines are worth in dollars and cents, most improved, direst line, cleanest line, and most breakdowns. In the NY Daily News article is also tells us what's your ride is really worth, rates some of the subway lines like seat availabilty, cleanliness and announcements rated.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the two articles, your most excellent announcements are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
NY Post article
I can agree with the L train annoucements. THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY BLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can agree with the L train annoucements. IT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!
IT BLOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice to know the N gotten a better rating this year. HAaaaRRRRRRAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The News' Article says that the N train has jumped to 6th best. Well, from a Brooklyn standpoint, more riders are probably taking the B train because of its express ride into Manhattan, whereas the N runs local. So it's probably not a problem finding a seat on the N and its less dirty because there are fewer riders on it. This would also explain why the B train is bottom on the list - overcrowding, insufficient service, dirty trains and the R68s.
The article also stated that the MTBF of the 4 train was 162K+ miles (the best) and the R line was 42K+. 42K mile MTBF? The R train doesn't have an exclusive fleet - isn't is a mix of R-32s, R-46s and R-68s? Why would they be less reliable on the R line than, say, the G line? To me a measurement of MTBF doesn't make sense by line - it makes sense by car fleet - unless a line is served exclusively by one set of subway cars, like the F with R-46s and the 7 with the R-36WFs.
The print version of the article has some charts in it that the on-line version does not, indicating which lines are best & worst in certain categories.
Here's The Post article.
--Mark
I agree that the D train is very dirty.
The R is mainly composed of R46s, not really mixed. There are no R68s running on the R line and there are rarely any R32s there either.
Here is how that survey is ludicrous: The F has all R46, and the G & R virtually all R46, the E has a few; individual cars (except the AA cars) can be ran on any line without prejudice. Pre Willy B closure the J/Z/M/L ran the same equipment interchangably (except the slants.) How then can one line have better equipment reliability than the other? It all averages out. Also, to one straphanger volunteer one car may be dirty and that same car to someone else may be acceptable. A car can leave the terminal clean, some slob throws his chicken bones on the floor, some parent changes a baby diaper and throws it on the floor, one of their volunteers gets into that car in mid-trip, and the TA is "charged" for a dirty car. What is the TA supposed to do: have a car cleaner ride in every car as the train goes down the road? Of course not! Announcements: with the air conditioners blasting away, many platform and car announcements are inaudible! The point is their survey is very subjective.
Not only is the survey subjective but the data is not collected according to any meaningful standard. A person stands in a station and peeks into a car. If the train is checked at a station other than a terminal, the checker has all of 20 - 30 seconds to evaluate several catagories. as for PA, the checkers don't use db meters and for HVAC, do not use any kind off temp. probe.
Also the N and R alternate for most of their runs. How can the N score so high and the R so low if they interact as much as they do. Now if the N was crossing the bridge and running express it would be a different story. The only impact on the R is that it is the local service on the known to be overcrowded Queens Line.
I'm elated that "N" (Sea Beach) rates high and the "R" rates so low. It goes back to my childhood. We lived for 10 years close to Queens Plaza where the "R" had its northern terminal. Aside from that stop the train never saw daylight and ended at 95th Street & Fort Hamilton.
It was a real drag. We couldn't wait to get to Times Square and get on a real train like the Sea Beach that would take us over the Manhattan Bridge and then into the bright sunshine and mini-tunnel underpasses on our way to Coney Island. That was a real trip. Or we
could take the Brighton Express to Ebbets Field. That was another gas. The 4th Avenue Local ("R" now)? Forget it!.
Not only is the survey subjective but the data is not collected according to any meaningful standard. A person stands in a station and peeks into a car. If the train is checked at a station other than a terminal, the checker has all of 20 - 30 seconds to evaluate several catagories. as for PA, the checkers don't use db meters and for HVAC, do not use any kind of temp. probe.
I can assure you that Astoria line riders think the the N does not have the least number of riders, is very dirty, and runs very unreliably. In one of the articles, even a #7 rider complained about the long waits during the midnite hours (it is actually 20 minutes like all other lines). The point is most people think THEIR line is WORST. Because they only remember that rare occasion that the railroad "blows up". They forget the good days. Many complain if their trip wind up 5 minutes late. I think they are being unfair. The bottom line: Most people think the other guys grass is greener than his own.
Of course you are right Bill about the subjectivity of the ratings.
In addition, the 7 line is a stand-alone line, which doesn't have to merge/share with others. I'm sure that helps its reliability, and thus (perceived) improved performance.
Are you Todd Glickman the journalist? I'll attach my lengthy response to the Straphangers survey onto your post, because I'm a former reporter myself.
I think the Straphangers Campaign has done many good things, they're a valuable organization, and an independent survey like the Straphangers ratings is a wonderful idea. I just read their latest one, and I'm not expert enough to assess all its findings and methods or object to any of them.
Except for what I think should be a very obvious one---the same one I strenously objected to on this BB last year.
The survey --- anybody, please disagree with me if you seriously can --- clearly gives the impression that NONE of the subway lines provide service that's worth $1.50, and that some of them are "worth" considerably less.
Whatever the other merits of the survey, this is a misleading gimmick for at least a couple of reasons that have nothing to do with observation methods or mixed fleets. Al O'Leary of the TA is right: the cost methodology is "ludicrous."
First ...
... the survey rates a line that provides the "average" level of service as offering a ride "worth" 75 cents. The "top score" is $1.50 -- the actual cost of a token.
The text of the survey report does make this reasonably clear, and the press coverage briefly refers to that scoring system as well. But it's inherently misleading, especially if you're not paying close attention to it.
If the survey had to assign a value to the average ride --- the ride that best approximates the overall level of service in the whole system --- it makes far more sense that it should be $1.50 --- the price millions of riders a day actually pay, in expectation of that ride.
Yes, yes, I realize that the price is preset, and there's no competing subway system to drive it down. So one could argue that the current price is probably too high, and we're all being forced to pay it.
But one could also argue that riders have other options, from buses and cabs to walking (for some Manhattanites) or driving (for some outer-boro types), so they might actually think of the subway as an amazingly good deal (as I do) and so might actually be willing to pay even more overall.
The MTA takes this kind of market analysis into account, at least to some degree, when deciding whether it can get away with raising fares without losing ridership, no?
But maybe the "average" score shouldn't be $1.50. The point here is, there's no good reason --- at least, I've seen no attempt by the Straphangers to provide one --- why they should imply that 75 cents, only half the actual fare, is the proper price for the "average" ride.
Right away, that sets the subway system up in a no-win situation. Even if all the lines improved so much that they were well toward the high end of the Straphangers' scoring range, the public would still get roughly the following impression --- perhaps through the inevitable tabloid headlines: "SUBWAYS BETTER BUT STILL NOT WORTH THE BUCK FIFTY."
When in fact, nothing like that would have been proved.
Second ...
... no matter what scale or baseline you're using, the whole idea of using a dollar figure to express a line's quality is somewhat misleading in itself.
As I've already suggested, the price that a given subway ride is "worth" is most accuratly reflected in what people are willing to pay for it (or would be willing to pay if the price fluctuated in a competitive free market).
Even if the survey is right about the merits of each line relative to each other, and to 1996 service levels, and so on, and even if it also had accurately identified the price people might pay for an "average" ride, and also for a "best" ride, and for a "worst" ride, that by no means proves that the "market price" would vary evenly anywhere in between.
For example, for a ride that's 20 percent better than average, people wouldn't necessarily be willing to pay only 20 percent more. They might feel that once you get 20 percent above average, it's all fine with them, and they'd pay just as much as if it were a perfect ride.
I'm getting picky here now, I know, but the broader point is that the survey makes the subway system look bad through misleading scoring.
The subways desperately need improvement, which the city, the state and the nation are in a historically great position to afford, but the way to spur that is not by trotting out random "prices" that government officials will find it all too easy to discredit. I think that the minute people stop to think about the current scoring system, they'll start to lose confidence in the survey.
It would be far more honest to use a system that doesn't pretend to relate to the price of a token.
It's supposed to be a "report card" --- whatever happened to grades?
Better still, why not give people credit for some intelligence, and just use numbers, while stripping off the dollar figures?
For example, make 50 stand for the average service level in 1996, 1 and 100 for the worst and best service in 1996, and allow for scores above and below that if some lines get even better or worse.
It might not make as big a splash, it's true. But in the long run, it would have more credibility, and that just might help get our elbows out of each other's ribs on the Lex one distant morning.
Tony, I'm Todd Glickman the meteorologist. I work part-time for WCBS Newsradio-88 in NYC, which would make me a broadcast meteorologist, and by the strict definition, not a "journalist." You can see my Web site for more.
Here on SubTalk, I participate where I can with information about the Boston transit system (where I live when not working in NYC); the Seashore Trolley Museum, where I'm an Instructor; and NYC transit systems from my intense interest since growing up in the Bronx, Queens, and Roslyn Heights on LI -- and commuting to NYC from Boston a few times per month for the past 20+ years.
They are right about the 6 having the most infreqeunt service. I don't know how many times I've missed a train, waited 5 minutes for a packed one, and when I get out at 77th, a half empty train comes in.
I'd say the A, B, D, F, N, R, and J are some of the worst lines in the system. They never come frequently, are always as crowded as hell, and all the operators cover the window in the front with the Times on the lines with the full width cab (although I don't think the NY Post cared about that when they made the survey).
Working the A line for years now I can vouch that I know of no one who reads the NY Times so I disagree that we are covering the cab windows with that paper. If you see the Chief Leader or Civil Cervice Centenial, my apologies :0}~ I also disagree with the A line status as it should be in dead last due to our superintendant appreciation days. Did they detail the numerous hot car details of the R-44 fleet in the article too. Id bet we have one of fifteen as non working A/C based on trains ordered in service.
At least you have R32 and R38 cars to help out - their A/C is usually reliable, especially the R32. Last R44 I was on was blowing warm (not hot) air in both trailer cars (5261,5259).
Wayne
The A line will always be my favorite, regardless of equipment. Granted, it's not the same without the R-10s, but such is life. I wanted to say the R-44s should be sent elsewhere, but if they did that, the R-68s might take their place, which would accomplish nothing.
What point are you trying to make? At what time of day and where are the trains crowded as hell and run infrequently? Sounds more like an prejudice against the alphabet than a valid discussion of the issues. I had to ride the #4 & #6 Thursday and found it more crowded and slower than the E or F that I usually ride. From that experience I still can draw no valid comparrison of overall performance. Comparrisons like those in the press this week make good reading but that's all. If you do some research, you'll find that the data such surveys are based on is usually several months old. Many times, the deficiencies have been corrected long before the publication of the survey.
Perhaps one question to you:
While I acknowledge that it is a violation of TA Rules, as a customer, what difference does it make to you (as far as service is concerned) if the train operator covers his crew door glass with newspaper?
At the middle of the PM Rush to wait 5 minutes for a train is outrageous. In DC, at PM rush hour, the Red Line comes every 2-3 minutes and often there are only about 5-10 people standing or about 1-2 seats open. Who wants to wait at rush hour that long for a train only to have there be no room. And even at 10 or 11 AM to wait so long for packed trains is crazy. Maybe when the R110A comes, the won't retire the redbirds and instead improve service on Lex. It is the only line on the east side and there are WAY to many people and not enough trains.
Please remember that the WMATA has a system designed to carry trains at close intervals with little human intervention. The TA has made an effort to reduce speeds recently, because their trains are primarily operated by humans, and, unfortunately, the TA management doesn't trust those humans to any great extent. Therefore long headways and low speeds are the rule in NYC.
(Anyone want to bet on when a computer failure slows Wasahington down?)
You mean it's a violation of TA Rules to cover the pseudo railfan window with newspaper? cool!
Having a rule is one thing. Enforcing it is another.
In response to WMATAGMOH: I have no idea as to where you came up with the idea that the 'J' line was one of the worst in the system.Being a TA employee for 6 years as a conductor and train operator,I have worked every line in the system except the Franklin Shuttle and I can honestly say this;the 'J' line is the only one that consistently runs AHEAD of its schedule and apart from the rush hour,always has seats available(at least when normal service is operated over the bridge with 8 cars). Of course if you ride in the first car all the time,you will never get a seat because the exits on the major stops on the line(to name a few:Eastern Parkway,Crescent St.and Jamaica Center)are right by the first car.However if you go to the center or the rear,you will get a seat,even during the pm rush. One last thing:you cannot compare the Red line in Washington to the Lexington Ave.line because the east side of Manhattan is vastly underserved by the TA considering the amount of people that live along and use the subway,and no matter how many cars you put on the line it will still be way overcrowded.
The A use to be my all time favorite until they put the R44's on that line. It's no surprise it loss the contest.
As a side note - Dave - your site is listed on the Straphangers web page! It said it was interesting and useful...
As appropriated from their website:
STRAPHANGERS CAMPAIGN REPORTS
Recent Releases
How Does Your Subway Line Rate?
A NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign State of the Subways Report
JULY 1999
--Mike
Is it the same way in New York as in Chicago, that the line with the heaviest ridership has the worst equipment?Such as the case here with the Red line(Horward-DanRyan). Which our heaviest line in terms of ridership with the most breadowns and bad orders.
Was channel - surfing last night and saw Michael Jackson's video "BAD"
on VH-1. What subway station was it filmed in?
Bad was filmed at the Hoyt-Schemerhorn station (A/C/G).
Weird Al Yankovic's parody of "Bad", "Fat", was also filmed in the station.
And speaking of film, check out the ABC-TV Movie "Dreams Don't Die". It's from 1982 or so, and follows the exploits of a young NY graffitti writer, who's main target is the NY Subway. It's on the channel 7 late movie every now and again.
In a strange coincidence, BAD was the first on-screen role for Wesley Snipes (he played the leader of the rival gang). Snipes of course starred in "Money Train" and more recently "Blade" that also used subway cars for a crucial scene.
Doug aka BMTman
Does Belgrade or any other Yugoslav city have a tram, trolley, light rail or subway
At one time, yes, there was tram service in Belgrade using Eastern Bloc-built cars (those built since WWII were mechanically PCC clones). What the status of these lines is, given the current political situation over there, I don't know. I'm not sure about a subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when Sarajevo was in Yougoslavia, it had ex DC Transit PCC's in service. These included some home brew modifications turning some cars into trailers.
The Sarajevo operator also rebuilt some DCT cars to Articulated units, using the front of one car and the rear of the other. The center joint used 1 B-2 truck and all axles were powered.
There was a thread not long ago which claimed that 2 cars were damaged in the Concourse fire, one of them, which is confirmed to be #2579. What is the 2nd car # involved? Could it have been #2577, or could it have been #2578?
Nick
In that incident, there was just one car damaged. Car #2579 was the only one to suffer any damage. Incidently, no determination has been made as to the primary cause of the incident.
My partner and I are currently writing a contemporary musical about young theatre people, set in New York City, titled "Here & Now."
Since we both see the Subway as "The Great Equalizer," we have already included one terrific song about the trains. If you have an incredible, of just plain funny Subway story - we'd love to hear from you. Email me at PhillNYC@yahoo.com.
Having misidentified Gil Hodges Brooklyn address, I turned to The Source, my big brother Irv (now inside the beltway) who knew a number of the Brooklyn Dodgers, and being four-and-a-half-years older than I, got to meet or even visit them in the era before ballplayers were surrounded by electrified gates, armed Rotweilers and accountants.
He said that he sometimes got to visit Hodges, who lived not far from our aunt in Midwood. At the time, he sez, Gil lived on East 32nd, between K & L. Later, he moved to Bedford Ave.
This same brother also got to meet some of the rock n roll personalities of the era (at the Brooklyn Paramount, of course). Some of those entertainers were awfully nice to a Brooklyn kid...
Paul, did you see my Gil Hodges related post under 'Re: sea beach' of Thur. Jul 8 12:12:32?
I didn't know that Hodges had originally lived in the Brooklyn College vicinity. I used to reside at E. 32nd Street between Glenwood and H just a stones' throw from 'the Junction' (and always got a seat on a rebuilt R-22 or 26 at Flatbush terminal).
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, I did, Doug. That's really interesting stuff.
I never met Gil Hodges (and I don't want to start a flame war with Yankee fans) but I think he may even surpass the late great Joe DiMaggio in the category of "Sports Figures as Great People." Joe was a kind gentle person, and one of the great gentlemen of the sport, but I've heard he could be rather distant. Gil seems to have been everything Joe was, and warm and caring to "the little people," the fans, as well.
BTW, I have a cousin, now in his 70s, who lives on Flatbush Ave., just south of 'the Junction', in one of those newer co-ops. He's been a Midwood resident all his life (except for a few years in Europe during WWII). My uncle lived at Newkirk & E.19th for decades, until he passed on just a couple of years ago at the age of 89.
I loved Brooklyn and would probably still be there if I could've afforded a half-decent house, many years ago.
[I never met Gil Hodges (and I don't want to start a flame war with Yankee fans) but I think he may even surpass the late great Joe DiMaggio in the category of "Sports Figures as Great People." Joe was a kind gentle person, and one of the great gentlemen of the sport, but I've heard he could be rather distant. Gil seems to have been everything Joe was, and warm and caring to "the little people," the fans, as well.]
I recall reading the same thing about Gil Hodges - he didn't have the sort of attitude problem that characterizes all too many of today's athletes. Speaking of which, I was shocked to hear that when Ken Griffey, Jr. made an appearance at the All-Star Cafe several months ago, he was accompanied by at least three bodyguards :-( The old-timers never would have indulged themselves with such nonsense. Oh well, tempis fugit, and all that ...
Don Drysdale, who roomed with Hodges for several years until Gil was drafted by the Mets, spoke of him as a saint.
Those of us who are longtime Met fans feel that Hodges would have remained with the club in some capacity, if not manager, had he not died prematurely, and that the Mets would not have gone down the toilet the way did in the late 70s. Whitey Herzog recalls that M. Donald Grant never questioned anything Hodges did because Gil was such a tower of strength. (Herzog also told Grant to his face that he didn't know beans about baseball.)
I remember to this day when Gil died, on April 2, 1972. We were on our way home from Montreal the following morning and were going through customs when I saw the officer in our lane holding a copy of the Daily News. The headline on the last page said it all: "Gil Hodges, 47, Dead."
Here's two that I know of:
Actor Kevin Dobson, famous as 'Crocker' on the old Kojak series was originaly an LIRR conductor.
The father of Hall-of-Fame Basketball star Kareem Abdul Jabbar was an NYCTA conductor.
Another point:
Where is the transfer point @14-8Av. The main one is boarded up......
Another point:
Where is the transfer point @14-8Av? The main one is boarded up......
What is the most depressing train? I'm not just talking the train itself, but tunnels and surroundings.
I decided to take the Q over the Manhattan bridge and found the tunnels to look quite dingy, especially around Grand street.
Got a good view of it from the front window.
The N and 7 have cleaner tunnels.
In general, the lines such as the 1 and 9, plus 4,5,6 in manhattan are the cleanest, and the least depressing.
I'm sure there are worse lines than the Q, what are they?
Probably the G.
I'd have to say that the J/Z is rather depressing. In Manhattan, it goes through the ludicrously decrepit station at Chambers Street, followed by the tomb-like Bowery station. Things don't improve across the East River, as most of the line's route through Brooklyn goes over run-down, poor neighborhoods.
This isn't to say that the J/Z is bad from a railfan viewpoint. Indeed, there are many interesting sights - the old trolley terminal at Essex/Delancey, the trip over the Williamsburgh Bridge (once it reopens), the Myrtle Junction, the Broadway-East New York complex, the ancient elevated structure over Fulton Street, and the Archer Avenue tunnel. But for non-railfans, who (let's be realistic) make up the vast majority of subway riders, the J/Z practically defines the word "dreary."
I've got a feeling that the commuters just care if the train gets into Manhattan. Unlike you or me, they view the subway as transportation that has to be reliable (unlike the J/Z). We railfans also need the above but also a few fun things along the ride...
Some of my lodge brothers on the net have told me that the Sea Beach in Brooklyn looks like a battlefield of World War I with debris and building materials hovering around the route. I'm glad it was rated the most depressing train. I plan on riding it the first full day I'm in New York, but will try to avoid all those new pit stops through the bowels of Manhattan and catch the Sea Beach at 59th Street just prior to its seeing daylight. Not to sound cocky because that's the last thing I'd want to be but some of you have started calling Mr. Sea Beach. I showed my wife those notes and she loved it, so if some of you want to refer to me as Sea Beach Fred I'd really be delighted. I
have to admit I'm kind of a fanatic on the Sea Beach, maybe a little ridiculous to some of you for a 58 year old to be acting, but I hope all of you will cut me a little slack. Getting on this Web has been a
real treat and I've met a bunch of good people who I already identify
with. This is my school computer I work on, because my daughter won't
let me use hers----even though we bought it for her. How to you like
that? Chao!
Sea Beach Fred has a nice ring to it. Don't feel guilty about the way you feel - it's perfectly understandable. Just make sure you get an N train of slant R-40s or R-32s. The subway brings out the kid in me every time. How else would you explain the fact I still stand in the first car on a regular basis with my nose against the railfan window?
I have to rate the N as my favorite BMT route, although it's lost some of its glitter since being forced to use the Montague St. tunnel. Next to an A train of R-10s, the most rewarding sight to me was an N train of R-32s pulling into any express station along its route.
Steve you have a blood brother. That is how I always rode the trains
My nose was against the window and it usually fogged up the glass. In fact when I was in New York in '91 I made friends with a couple of African-American motormen who got a real kick out of me, a 50 year old acting like a kid on Christmas. One of these gentlemen had a catchy nickname and was supposed to come visit me in California, but I never heard from him. I hope both still work for the transit authority because I'm going to try and look them up. I'm sure they would remember me. I looked pretty silly but had a ball. Maybe I'll see you on a train. I'll be in New York from August 6-19, with three days
in between at Cooperstown. Take care.
[I've got a feeling that the commuters just care if the train gets into Manhattan. Unlike you or me, they view the subway as transportation that has to be reliable (unlike
the J/Z). We railfans also need the above but also a few fun things along the ride...]
I have to agree with you, WMATAGMOH. It's not only drery but extremely slow. The MTA should tear it down and build an entirely new structure from Metropolitan Avenue to Delancy Street and Suphin Blvd to Myrtle Avenue. And don't forget the L from Broadway Junction to Canarsie.
I'd rather be beaten with a stick than made to ride the C local from 168th to Euclid. None of the stations along the way is particularly appealing. Most are old and dark. 81st Street is starting to look a little brighter as the station work continues, but dingy defines the rest of the run.
If you thought those IND stations are dim now, they were far dimmer before they received fluorescent lighting.
At least the C has R-32s and R-38s which move pretty decently. If you take a B train, you're stuck with R-68s. 'Nuff said.
I remember the Fulton St line before the stations were all equipped with flourescent lighting. The local stations looked positively scary, and Broadway/East NY never seemed to have all of the light bulbs working at the same time.
That really brings up an interesting point; I've always thought that when they started introducing florescent lighting,THATS when people started noticing how dirty the subway is....maybe the TA did cut back on cleaning,etc, but I bet of lot of it had to do with he fact you could actuallySEE the grime....??
Lou, you actually bring up a good point. I grew up in Brooklyn roughly in the late fifties through about '70 when I left home. Most all of the elevated and a fair number of the subway stations as I recall were still using light bulbs at the junction of ceiling beams protected by wire guards. Fluorescent lights were around all right, but not as common as they are now. Whether it was just bad lighting or not, it seems to me that the stations at least appeared to be cleaner back then. Of course, that was before the graffiti craze of the seventies and eighties. Dress it up and call it art all you want, to me it still looks like trash. Later, Salvo.
Graffiti isn't art. Picasso is art. Monet is art. Andy Warhol is art (I think). Graffiti is vandalism. And that's just my 2 cents ...
Chris, I totally agree. Salvo.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Graffiti is simply unwanted art, just as a weed is simply a plant that appears where it isn't wanted. I don't like Warhol any more than I like graffiti, but then again I don't care for much of Picasso's works either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
His early works (blue period, etc) which were on display a few years ago at the Met definitely look nothing like subway graffiti.
When they came out with that garffiti coffee table book about 20 years ago with text by Norman Mailer praising the art, I always wondered when was the last time Mailer took the subway, and if he woke up the next morning and found all his house windows decked out in spray paint, would he want to do a sequel to the first book?
Unfortunately, from what I've read about Mailer, he probably would! But you make an excellent point.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only way graffiti is art is when its put on canvas and is shown at the Metropolitia Museum of Art. If it's on a subway car or the side of a building it's pure vandalism.
I agree! I was simply pointing out the similarity to weeds, and acknowledging that different people perceive things in different ways.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ditto. All that bright, white light highlighted grime that was actually there for decades.
The SEPTA R2 route to Wilmington and Newark. Nothing but abandoned and burnt out buildings. A result of the Navy yard closing.
Who needs regional rail for that; you can see abandoned and burned out buildings on the Market-Frankford El. Seems like half of Philly is like that...
Dont Go dissin Philly until you go around Philly. My neighborhood certainly isnt burned out. Look at NYC with the South Bronx and Broklyn. Philly has quite a few nice neighorhoods. Check Your eyes
[Dont Go dissin Philly until you go around Philly. My neighborhood certainly isnt burned out. Look at NYC with the South Bronx and Broklyn. Philly has quite a few nice neighorhoods. Check Your eyes.]
Philly might have some nice neighborhoods, but the trolley lines and subway-elevated lines certainly DO NOT travel through them.
I remember the Philadelphia of the 1960's. It still had many small businesses and factories where people from the neighborhood worked. Those people then would feed the local neighborhood economony.
My aunt and uncle made their home near M & Kensington for over fifty years. Years ago my cousins and I could run around the neighborhood until all hours of the evening. Would you let you children run on Kensington Avenue today?
I was very depressed to see formally vibrant, working neighborhoods that today have every other house boarded up or burnt out.
No FAHQ, Philadelphia may have some nice neighborhoods, but they are far outweighed by lost neighborhoods.
Jim K.
Chicago (formally lived in Phila. area)
Unfortunately, Jim, you are right on the button here. Kensington has certainly seen better days. It has gone straight down the tubes in the past 20 years. Frankford, especially the area around Church station, is following quickly. The Market St end of the el is looking prosperous by comparison. When I was growing up (mid to late 60's and early 70's), K & A was certainly not the home of the rich and famous but it was at least well kept. Not so today. I had cousins close by and I used to visit and we would walk down Kensington Ave to Kelly's Korner, the old trolley (PRT) shops converted into a 5 and 10 (with trolley rail still in the floor in many places!). It's a different world today.
I wouldn't throw all the blame for the decay along R2 Wilmington on the demise of the Navy Yard. Eastern Delaware County, especially the Chester area, has been hit pretty hard with the loss of manufacturing jobs, much as Phila has suffered.
And, before we 'diss' Phila too greatly, the portion of the 2/5 between the portal and West Farms Square is pretty depressing, although it may be on the way back. On the IRT fan trip a couple of years back, the Van Cortland end of 1 seemed a little drearier than the previous times I was there. And, there's always the Broadway/Brooklyn el's neighborhoods for 'scary' as well as dismal. Phila certainly has no monopoly on the dreary market.
My Dad grew up in Philly. I visit the area about 2-3 times a year. I love the town, my favorite city.
To prove I'm not totally trashing the view of Philly from SEPTA:
The SEPTA trains that run over the traditional PRR mainline to Downington give a good view of several upscale neighborhoods. Nice quaint little towns.
[The SEPTA trains that run over the traditional PRR mainline to Downington give a good view of several upscale neighborhoods. Nice quaint little towns.]
Dear Paoli Local (and I remember the "old" Paoli local complete with MP54's).
You are correct in what you say about the current R5 Malvern-Downingtown ride on SEPTA, formally the PRR Mainline, west of Overbrook. However, the former 52nd St. station in West Philadelphia, was located at 52nd & Lancaster, not a partically good neighborhood today. My questionto you is, if 52nd Street were still open would you get off the train there.
52nd Street Station was an important stop on the Paoli trains up until the 1970's. Outbound trains in the morning stopped there to pick up the maids headed for work at the large estates located in Merion, Narberth, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, etc. In the evening the process reversed. These riders, and others heading towards to suburbs to work in homes, estates and in small businesses were the pioneer's of what we call "reverse communting" today.
On the recent ERA streetcar charter into West Philadelphia, we passed the remains of a once busy station and traffic generator for the Pennsy. I remeber that the inbound platform was located on a high tressle, and you had to decent a long flight of stairs to get to the street.
Unfortunately, this is a sad reminder of the glory days of Philadelphia rail transportation.
Jim K.
Chicago
Mr K, as a resident of Chicago, what is your favorite
Metra line.(excluding the South Shore) Mine are tied for
first, the BNSF to Aurora with all the rush hour action,
and the UP(C&NW) west line which is the main line to
Omaha. But my all time favorite which no longer runs is
the none stop service on the northwest line of C&NW which
ran non-stop from Jefferson Park to the now temporarily
closed Arlington Park Racetrack. A ride I called the
Arlington Park Swift.
"But my all time favorite which no longer runs is the non stop service on the northwest line of C&NW which ran non-stop from Jefferson Park to the now temporarily closed Arlington Park Racetrack."
As you're probably aware, Arlington Park is going to reopen next year, since Duchossois got the gambling-related amendments he wanted out of the Assembly. Considering that Metra runs specials to Ravinia Park in the summer concert season, I would be VERY surprised if Metra didn't reinstate racetrack specials when Arlington reopens.
So, have you been on the new (since 1996) North Central Line yet? If so, what did you think of it?
Dear Mr. Sunday 804 –
This is so easy, is it a set-up? Anyway, I would have to say my favorite is the UP-North Line, formally C&NW line to Kenosha (Milwaukee).
Why, the reasons are list below:
Great view of downtown and the Lake Street ‘L’ departing Northwestern Station.
Left hand running through “decent” neighborhoods in the city of Chicago.
Did I mention good views of the Ravenswood ‘L’ and the Evanston ‘L’ lines.
Traverses the villages of the North Shore, north of Chicago, which are not depressing at all.
Parallels the abandoned CNS&M electric right-of-way in Winnetka.
Where else can you pass a bridge that proudly proclaims NORTH SHORE LINE, thirty-six years after the Road of Service quit?
And finally, at the end of 1999 or beginning of 2000, this line will take me to the newest streetcar operation using PCC cars in the states – in Kenosha.
How can you top this? Beats most regional rail rides.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Mr. K, Often I take things for granted. I guess it takes a transplant to persuade me. The PCC'S in Kenosha alone should top the list. BTW have you already seen the North Shore embankment above Westleigh Rd. in Lake Forest. The first time I saw that I thought I was in a time machine.
And don't forget, it also takes you to the world's finest military training installation-Naval Training Center Grave Mistakes.
Has there been anyone talking about reopening 52nd St? Seems like it could be useful - LOTS of folks get on at Overbrook, heading west to work. It would, no doubt, cut down on the commute for a lot of people. It also would have come in handy during the strike. Seems dumb not to have a stop there. Course, it would need an elevator now, which would be expensive...
"Course, it would need an elevator now..."
If it's a matter of reopening an existing, but closed, station and it's not a "key station" (and how could a previously-closed station be key?), then not so.
Here in Chicago, the CTA reopened a subway station (Grand/Halsted on the Blue Line) that was closed for a few years now, and they didn't make any ADA improvements to the station even though substantial renovation was made necessary by the fact that the line colors (Grand had green signs, including the station name carved into the tile, but stations are supposed to use the color of their line, so Grand had to be changed to blue) and the Transit Card system weren't in place when the station closed.
Well Jim. 52 Street is in a pretty depressing part of town. I may get off there though. I've walked the streets of North Philly at night, this can't be any worse.
Of course, they could spend the $$$ and reactivate the Newtown line.
But trains apparently make people unhappy up that way, so some of
the prettiest scenery (IMHO) lies along abandoned rails.
I remember fondly the Newtown Line. The crew that I rode around with during my high school days picked a job out of Chestnut Hill for one pick in the late 1960's. This job included the "morning" Newtown out of Reading Terminal after the AM rush. The run numbers were #874 NB and #883 SB. During the late 1960's this train ran all the way to Newtown. In the early 1970's it was cut back to Churchville.
It was a one car job that used either Budd RDC #9151 or #9152 for equipment. This was because they were the only two of the fleet of 16 that had "excitation" equipment to activate signals and grade crossing protection. The signaling was a mute point because it was "permissive block" north of Fox Chase. The crew always needed a Clearance card "A" to leave Fox Chase.
The head end ride was great. Scenery was beautiful and the area was still not sub-divided with houses built on 1/2 acre, or less, lots.
Those were the days! There were two jobs working out of Newtown back then. I would have to look up the run numbers, but it as I remember the jobs that worked out of Newtown Terminal were sweet - time and pay wise that is.
The afternoon job started in Newtown at 4:06 PM, report time 3:36 PM. It made a trip into Reading Terminal, a trip back out to Newtown from Reading Terminal at 5:29 PM, and return. The home trip left RT at 9:19 PM, an odd time for a train to leave, and arrived at Newtown at 10:18 PM, off-duty time 10:28 PM. Eight hours pay for less than seven hours work - not bad!
Jim K.
Chicago
Save those memories, Jim. The best you can do today is to observe an overgrown right-of-way from the window seat of a 25-passenger cutaway bus on one of the two replacement rubber-tired routes (301 and 302) which operate the service now that trains are gone. And, because of local politics, the trains will likely never return.
I was walking the line from Newtown south last week, and man, have
16 years done a job on that line. The rails look awful, and it was
so overgrown after about 15 minutes I had to turn around. :(
Did the line ever go further north from Newtown? It looks like the
yard is where it ended, but then the rail from the station seems
to go through a grade crossing.
(It certainly doesn't hurt that my SO lives in Newtown. :)
As far as the LIRR is concerned, much of the main line to Ronkonkoma is fairly depressing. While there's nothing really terrible, the trackside scenery in many places runs toward gritty industrial and commercial stuff - factories, junk yards, sand-and-gravel operations, construction supply yards, etc. Necessary activities, of course, but ones that score low on the scenic scale.
If you're the type who is depressed by cemeteries (not me, I find them rather interesting), the Ronkonkoma line isn't for you. It runs through the enormous Pinelawn cemetery, which even has a small station platform for cemetery visitors. The line also runs through a few somewhat down-at-the-heels communities - Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip. Finally, the area to the north of the Ronkonkoma station is sort of unsightly (there's a huge parking lot to the south). There apparently had been plans for major commercial development of this area. Instead, there's just a woebegone commercial strip with many vacant storefronts (the occupied ones seem to consist of disreputable bars and tattoo parlors), and some weedy empty lots.
Oyster Bay line is a bit depressing, not for it's scenery but for the old diesel trains. Also the stations along this line have very light ridership, so stations seem pretty much deserted.
You must not have rode the Oyster Bay lately. They have quite a bit of new bi-level cars operating on this line, particularly during the non rush hour.
Hmm, I do not see what the closing of the Navy Yard has to do with Chester and that area being a mess... Chester has been down and out for 25+ years!
I would say that the R7 Trenton line is about as bad as it gets. Lots of abandoned factories line the tracks as they wind through North Philly. It particularly bugs me because lots of folks heading through Philly on Amtrak probably think that kind of decay is all there is in Philadelphia!
I'd like to think Philadelphia is on its way back up now.
David, I'll second that all right! When I took the train down to Florida last year to visit my mother we passed through Philly going and coming. If a person didn't know that it really isn't such a bad city and that it does have it's good neighborhoods, you'd think you were passing through a war zone or something. I remember a lot of weed-choked vacant lots, burned out warehouses, and buildings that look like they could fall in any second. As a lifelong New Yorker, I'm not saying that there isn't urban blight and decay here because I know that there is. It just doesn't help Philly's reputation much when people who may only ever pass through it see what they do from the train. It's especially bad in my opinion if you see it on a snowy day in late December.
I'll third that opinion, being a Philly resident myself. But then
again, bad neighborhoods seem to be the norm for the NE corridor
in NY/PA/NJ. North Philly, then Newark, and after leaving NYC it's
not the prettiest either. Not enough sweatshops and mills stayed
open after the industrial revolution, eh? :)
Yes, there are a lot of gritty, industrial neighborhoods. But aside from stuff in the Bronx, I can't think of any area where there are so many collapsing and abandoned buildings in the gritty areas.
Salvatore, why do you find it the worst in the snow? At least the snow covers some of the trash. In general, the NEC is a dumping ground, which is a shame. Makes riding the train that much less glamorous, or whatever...
Lee, I find it more depressing in the snow because it just casts a very bleak picture. I especially remember looking across some cememtery to a stretch of extremely run-down rowhouses. With a lead grey sky, it looked very ominous. Of course, this is just my opinion. I will be the first to admit that the New York Metro area is just chock full of scenery like this, but I grew up around it so I guess it just doesn't bother me.
How do they get people out of stuck trains? What happens if a train gets stuck under the East River, like the 7, N, or E?
If there was a total NYC blackout, I'd hate to think how those subways would be?
Steve can elaaborate but I will start:
Train crews and all transit employees are trained in train evacuation. They would make or have made, the decision to clear the train. The train crew would lead the passengers to the nearest emergency exit or station and ensure their safety.
There are many different ways to get people out of the tunnels on "stuck" trains. You mention a couple of situations, though, which wouldn't require people to get out and walk..
If a train is stuck in a tunnel because of equipment problems, they can pull a train right up to it from either the front or the back, and have people walk into the second train.
If there is a power failure where they can't restore traction power, there is always the diesel routes. They're not likely going to have 1,000 passengers walk up and out of an east river tunnel -- they'll send a couple of diesels down to fetch them out.
On the LIRR side there are always two diesel engines at HAROLD TOWER (a track stub) during rush hour. LIRR would come to a stop even if they lose one track and I think they would rescue the train before transfering pax.
Diesel route? I think not. Not in the subways. There are several courses of action possible.
In the case of a stalled train. The follower may be discharged and used as a rescue train. In that case, it would be pulled up to the disabled train and customers would be walked from one to the other.
Less frequently, the train may be electrically and pneumatically isolated, essentially creating 2 trains linked with just a mechanical coupler. A good section is found and the train is moved into the next station,
Still less frequently, an empty train might be used to 'push' the disabled train into the next station. Incidently, stalled trains are never pulled - always pushed. This requires much supervision and positive communications.
In the case of a power failure, every effort would be made to keep customers on the train and comfortable. This is especially true if the nearest station is more than a few hundred feet away. Tunnel lighting is completely inadequate for a train crew to walk 2-3,000 people to safety by flashlight. Evacuation is a last resort.
When I first was employed by the NYCT, stalled trains were somewhat common, especially when caused by P-wire loss. RCIs had to be able to move any train (within 20 minutes) unless there was no 600 volts, the train was on the ground, or the motorman was dead. Fortunately, the division of Car Equipment ahs made stalled trains far less common. Unfortunately, lack of practice has made RCIs and some TSSs less competant when the need arises.
But if there is a complete power failure, how long can people wait down there? 2 hours. 3 hours. 4? If in an East River tunnel, they would have to walk. There must be some kind of Emergency floodlights?
I don't think they can use diesels in a tunnel because people would suffocate from the fumes.
I guess they would have to do the same if an LIRR train got stuck from a blackout in the tunnel.
Are there walkways in the tunnels or do people have to walk along the tracks?
With the recent blackouts in major parts of the city, if it gets hot again, and a subway transformer blows, any trains in the tunnel would get stuck. Can't they just "coast" the trains into the next station, or they can't because of trips in the up position?
I wonder where the substations are for each line, presumably the power is from ConEd. I have no idea where LIRR gets it's power from, but if it's ConEd in the City zone then a blackout would effect them too.
Each situation is different and must be evaluated on its' own (merits). The option to evacuate will never be a first choice and is a decision that is never taken lightly. If emergency personnel can be brought to the scene quickly enough to help maintain conditions and calm, there should be no need for anything other than a selective evacuatiion. Selective evacuations meaning removing only those in medical distress.
But if stuck in an East River tunnel in a blackout, how fast can power be restored. When a transformer blows, can they get power from another one?
When the blackouts in NYC happened in 1977 and the one before that, what did they do? They can't leave people in a train for 10 hours, they'd run out of air!
If the blackout was in Astoria instead of Washington heights, if the N train power suppy was knocked out, the trains would've been stuck for most of the day. I can't imagine an N stuck in an East River tunnel and not evacuating people if power was not restored in 5 hours!
As I said, each situation is different. When 3904-3559 had their unfortunate incident, the few passengers on that train were evacuated through the Sutton Place emergency exit. That's 93 feet up 13 flights of stairs. Fortunately, it was less than 50 people. 500 or 1,00 would have been a completely different story.
If the elevators are out, the booth will hit the alarm and police will respond along with supervision. A supervisor will check the emergency stairway next to the elevators( Yes- all deep stations have an emergency stairway- real stairs with lights and railings) near the elevators and then help customers exit the station. New customers would be barred from entering the station. if the station has escalators they would be reversed or shut down if necessary to avoid congestion. Also- most stations have extra exit gates that are usually opened during construction re-routes and disruptions.
In any emergency requiring station evacuation, such as smoke, fire, flooding, power failure, etc. the alarm will be activated. of course, if there is extra personnel at the station such as the relief being early, the extra personnel can start clearing the station while the agent in the booth notifies supervision and handles communications with Station Command and/or the Field Office and/or the station supervisor or field manager. I did just that procedure last year when the water main break downtown stopped IRT service to Brooklyn. There was no flooding at my station- just not trains. I took charge outside of the booth and the agent in the booth complied with my requests. (Yes- my hours were changed and the superindent and supervisor both thanked me.)
A G O can also require clearing a station and here again, a relief or cleaner will help the agent in the booth and all will work together. Yesterday I worked with the booth to clear Astor Place downtown due to the weekend G.O. where the 4/6 runs express from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. I gave my requests to the booth and they complied with my requests.
If you get one of the smart alecs you wait till they are relieved and then you carry on without them. (even relieve them early-- most will want to go home early!) Often times, using their sixth sense a police officer will be nearby and they'll help (and then they'll tell the booth to clear the station like the other agent requested.) Forutnately I have had no smart alecs in emergency situations. The station agent is "Stuck" in the booth and they welcome the extra help.
Emergency flood lights!!! wow thats a good one! if a power failure occurs and a train can coast to a stop adjacent to a station FABULOUS..
in an under river tube well babe those are the brakes(pun) the T/O applies the brakes and handbrakes also . as for evacuation thats on a case by case basis. If ther are no immediate hazards such as fire smoke or flood why not just sit there and wait till the Fire Dept shows up?
In a power failure where signals are affected usually the stop arms go to the tripping position, in some instances the signals go dark and the stop arms stay in the position they were in before electricity died out.
with third rail power out the train is to coast as close as possible if not into or near a station even nearest to an emergency exit is best well next climbing as many as 300-1000 feet up some narrow and dingy steps...
"with third rail power out the train is to coast as close as possible if not into or near a station even nearest to an emergency exit is best well next climbing as many as 300-1000 feet up some narrow and dingy steps"
300 to 1000 feet may be a 'slight' exaggeration. We're running a subway system and not a diamond mine. the deepest emergency exit is roughly 180 feet.
I concur with you Steve. I measured the Roosevelt Island station, which is supposed to be the deepest station below the surface, at 100 feet below surface (lower platform). I'm sure there are some tunnels which run deeper, but at 10' per building storey, 1000' would be the height (depth?) of the Empire State Building!
And most of these climbs aren't nearly that deep. As part of various Transit Museum tours I have climbed down and up various emergency staircases (in inactive tunnels) and found them to be an adequate means to get in and out. Ideal? Hardly, but they're for emergencyuse, after all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the 86th floor observatory is 1,050 feet up, so if you can imagine looking down from there, that would be a good idea.
I liken it to the suspension bridge over the Arkansas River at Royal Gorge out here. It's also 1,050 feet above the river, and there is a railroad alongside. Get this: there are "No fishing from bridge" signs posted. Yeah, right.
Oh boy are they less competent. I had to flag a train from Spring st. to Jamaica Yard. The TSS had no idea what he was doing, or the train operator. I tried to offer assistance, explaining my background. On the rail road, we did that stuff all the time. But NOOO, I'm just a lowly conductor. What could I possibly know? So I let those two idiots handle it. Until they almost ran a switch and collided with an F at 5th Av. It was too late for the home signal though. That was already 30 feet gone when the train finnally stopped.
I got in to a heated shouting match with the TSS over that. I told him under No circumstances was this train moving till we got these problems settled. First was the way the train was set up.
The brake pipe angle was pulled at the 4th car. We had no way to stop from the first car. A violation of operating rules. No buzzer or PA because they had retrieved the electric portion on the couplers.
The control center only cared about moving the train. So I was on my own with these two geniuses. We eventually got to Jamaica, but it took hours. I was making sure that it was done right.
Whenever I see that TSS he won't look at me. Really, what would it take if management just trained people the right way? Does there have to be a train wreck and a loss of life?
Yes. Those two things plus one huge lawsuit.
[Oh boy are they less competent. I had to flag a train from Spring st. to Jamaica Yard. The TSS had no idea what he was doing, or the train operator ... I told him under No circumstances was this train moving till we got these problems settled. First was the way the train was set up. The brake pipe angle was pulled at the 4th car. We had no way to stop from the first car.]
That sounds like what happened in the fatal G train crash at Roosevelt Avenue in 1970.
Sadly, the G train at Roosevelt Ave. is 29 years removed from today. We should have learned and we have. Unfortunately, there are those who can't think under pressure. In the incident cited by Erik, there is virtually never an occaxxion where the electric portions on an R-46 must be retreived. We can isolate the train while still preserving communications. Unfortunately, under pressure, some people forget what they are taught and resort to 'bottom line" solutions.
As for the Roosevelt Ave. incident, I knew the RCI who was blamed for that fiasco. In fact, he came to work for me from 1985 until he retired. Because he flagged the train and was unqualified to do so, he was charged with manslaughter. He was out of work for over one year before the case was resolved and he was allowed to return. However, he was never permitted to work the road, ever again.
If I'm correct, an operating rule was changed because of that. Only RTO personnel may flag trains today.
There are some DCE supervisors who are signal-qualified. I'm not sure how many there are though...
Why are stalled trains always pushed and never pulled?
Two reasons.
The first is debatable. It is felt that there is greater safety and control when pushing. The point of operation is always betweenthe good train and the bad one. There is also no chance for the disabled unit to break away undetected. In addition, when you get into the yard, the bad order train is always to the block.
The second is that when a train is disabled, it is usually a train behind the stuck train that is removed from service to effect a rescue if necessary and then be used as horses. The train in front of the stuck train is usually long gone.
Incidently, whenever any train is pushed, both trains must have a draw-bar/shear-pin/coupler exam before they are returned to service.
WALK MY CHILD WALK!!!
Delancy Street was the Subway Stop of James Cagney and Irving Berlin.
Humphry Bogart caught the 7th Avenue Local at 103rd and Broadway and Harry Houdini likely got on and off the 8th Avenue line at 125th Street.
Any others???
< Harry Houdini likely got on and off the 8th Avenue line at 125th Street. >
I've gotta know! Surely Houdini didn't use the turnstiles, did he? ;-)
Houdini never learned to drive a car (this in spite of the fact that he was one of the worlds first aviators) I know he used the subway, but Now that I think of it he died in 1926 and not sure if the 8th Avenue Line had been built. He lived on 122nd Street.
I'm not sure Houdini believed in the hereafter, but he at least allowed for it, in that I believe he told his survivors that he would show up at a seance on his birthday, if it were possible. Seances have been held, but he's never shown up.
Perhaps we might imagine that his shade has taken the "A" train.
While on the subject of the "A" line and famous people, does anyone know if the man who immortalized the line in song, Duke Ellington, ever rode on the "A" line?
BTW, going back a few years, I think I recall an interview with Barbara Streisand where she fondly remembered her rides on the Brighton Beach local when she went to Erasmus Hall High School and the trolley cars of Flatbush Ave. This may have been either the Oprah Show or someother network program back in the early 90's.
Doug aka BMTman
Sea Beach Fred might be a minor leaguer when it comes to knowing all about his famous train, but when it comes to the Brooklyn Dodgers I take a back seat to no one. Gil Hodges belongs in the Hall of Fame and the Brooklyn Dodger Fan Club, of which I'm a member, has been laboring arduously for his getting inducted. Flood the papers and telephone lines of writers about this. Gil not be in the Hall is a crime. He was a gentleman, a role model, one of the great and consistent RBI men of his era, and the best defensive first baseman in baseball. He hit 20 or more homers 11 years in a row and won a World Series as manager of our Mets. We want him in.
Fred, thanks for the info! I had no idea that Gil was NOT in the Hall of Fame.
What gives with that?
Doug aka BMTman
The only way Gil would get into the Hall of Fame now would be for the Veterans Committee to vote him in. As to why he hasn't been enshrined is one of the better unanswered questions.
Don't forget: Pee Wee Reese didn't get in until 1984, when the Veterans Committee voted him in. It took Phil Rizzuto even longer. I know, he's a Yankee, but I'm using him as an example.
I have a copy of The Year the Mets Lost Last Place, which chronicles nine crucial days in July of 1969, when the Mets played three games with the Cubs at Shea, followed by three games with the Expos (a fourth game was rained out), and three more games with the Cubs in Chicago. There is mention of Wayne Garrett riding back to Manhattan on an E train after the first game with the Expos. A fan asked a lady sitting directly across from Garrett for a pen so he could get an autograph from Ron Taylor, who was in the next car. This fan didn't even recognize Garrett. There was no mention of where Garrett or Taylor got off the train.
I remember Tom Seaver's near-perfect game of July 9. We returned from Florida that very afternoon and I watched that game on TV. The biggest regular season crowd in Shea Stadium history was on hand for that game - 59,083 people jammed to the rafters. It's too bad standing-room-only is now a thing of the past.
Harry Houdini likely got on and off the 8th Avenue line at 125th Street.
Not likely. Houdini died in 1926; the 8th Ave. subway opened in 1932. If he rode it it would have been some trick on his part!
-Dave
Yes, I forgot that part. But he did use the subway. Perhapse the IRT
7th Avenue express??? or one of the El lines. As I said above, he lived on West 122nd street.
Also, John D. Rockefeller Sr. was known to ride the streetcar and other public transport to his Standard Oil offices at 26 Broadway. this would have been in the Oughts or Teens.
The Marx Brothers as children got on the 3rd Ave el (and cheated the ticket taker..) at 98th St(Harpo as a child was apparently very adept at this...). (they lived at 179 E 96th St between approx 1895-1908 or so...) Currently John Olerud of the Mets frequently rides the subway out to Shea. My fave pic of all time is The Donald and Ivana Trump riding the F after 4th of July fireworks,,looking incredibly uncomfortable....In the old,old days it was very common for ballclubs staying at the Ansonia Hotel to take the el up to the old Polo Grounds.....trying to think of some others...Oh yeah...Rod Kanahel of the Original 1962 Mets had the nickname The Mole for his hobby of riding the subway...not to mention Phil Rizzutos dad having been a trolley motorman for the BMT....
As far as I know Larry "Bud" Melman still rides the N train from Bay Ridge to get into the city.
He was the 'foil' for David Letterman in his shows' early years. And Larry also made a number of commercials for 1-800-CALL-COLLECT.
I believe the Letterman show did a skit (on location) of Larry on a part of his N train route and how people did/did not notice him on a crowded train.
Doug aka BMTman
Is Kanahel still around (and if so, is the nickname still valid and does he read this board)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rod Kanehl was known as Hot Rod; however, he was long gone by the time I started following the Mets.
Speaking of baseball, did you know that the song Take Me Out to the Ballgame was inspired by a subway ride? The story goes that Jack Norworth, who penned the tune, got the idea for it in 1908 when he saw a poster promoting Giants games at the Polo Grounds while on the subway. Maybe it was the 9th Ave. el. Ironically, Norworth himself didn't care for baseball.
I hope this isn't too off-topic for this BBS, but what's your favorite rail song ever written? (There have been a few songs mentioning transit--"The Trolley Song," for example, or Charlie on the MTA.)
Any criteria good enough for you are good enough for me.
My vote goes to a song which perfectly evokes the feel of long-distance passenger railroading in the darkest days before Amtrak--"The City of New Orleans."
How about "I've Been Working on the Railroad"?
That's corny and silly. It's only for Gangdy Dancers>
How corny can it be if it has its own website!
http://www.kididdles.com/i013.html
try this one
http://www.kididdles.com/mouseum/i013.html
Wait a minute! I looked through all the Best Rail Song postings and no one's mentioned the obvious - an anthem for New York City and the Independent Subway: Take The "A" Train - Duke Ellington. A great tune!
That's corny and silly. It's only for Gandy Dancers>
"It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes A Train To Cry"
"Freight Train Blues"
And my favorite by far "Bob Dylan's Dream"
All by Bob Dylan.
Tom Waits had a song called "Downtown Train" that was covered by everyone and their brother. That was a good one.
Come to think of it Tom Waits wrote quite a lot of songs about trains.
"A Train Will Bring Me Home" And others.
And let's not forget the "Orange Blossom Special" sung by Johnny Cash
And that reminds me of "People Get Ready [There's a Train a'Comin')" (not sure that's the correct title) which I believe may be a traditional song. I've heard a couple of versions, and there was a video with, IIRC, Rod Stewart and Jeff Beck.
The song is a religious allegory, but the train imagery is beautiful.
Of course, there's James Brown's "Night Train"
And if we're going to get into gospel songs, how about "Death's Little Black Train is Comning" (many versions). Fits in with the discussion of "Cemetary Specials" of a while ago.
There's a heap of good blues tunes with railroad themes. I just can't think of any titles at the moment. If you go & look up the black press from the twenties & thirties, they used to publish ads for each 78 as they came out, with pictures illustrating the theme of the song. This is a source of some wonderful railroad illustrations!
The Wreck of Old 97 has been done in countless variations by countless performers. It's a true classic. King of the Road, by the late Roger Miller, is another great one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
< And if we're going to get into gospel songs, how about "Death's Little Black Train is Comning" (many versions). Fits in with the discussion of "Cemetary Specials" of a while ago. >
Which reminds of a Chuck Berry's 1955 recording of "Down Bound Train," a drunkard's fantasy of a train rushing downward into Hell. If you have Real Player 5, you can hear it at digital chain saw's Chuck Berry Page.
A few of my favorites:
Take the A Train -- Duke Ellington
Midnight Train to Georgia -- Gladys Knight and the Pips
Friendship Train -- (same as above)
The Train is Coming -- Shaggy ("Money Train" opening song).
How about "Midnight Special"?
Lotsa good tunes in this thread. I guess good songwriters must recognize trains as an inspiration. Hey, if Bob Dylan and Duke Ellington both approve, trains can't be all bad.
One addition: The Grateful Dead's song ... um, actually I'm not sure of the exact official title, but ... "Casey Jones."
Its winking lyrics include cautionary references to cocaine and other hard drugs ("you better watch your 'speed' ").
But more than most "train songs" I know of, its lyrics also stick pretty much to the subject of a train and its operation. Superficially, anyway. It's a black-humorous lark about an impending wreck, complete with timetables:
"... leaves Central Station 'bout a quarter to nine, hit Trouble Junction at seventeen-to, at a quarter to ten you know we're riding again...."
Usually a train is limited to serving as a song's plot device or a symbol of something, -- death, life changes, sexual energy, or anything else powerful, dynamic and unsettling -- and it's only mentioned a few times in the chorus and maybe another odd line or two.
"City of New Orleans," previously mentioned in this thread, is another, far more serious, exception to this rule. It's about a lot of fairly profound things, but all of them are connected in one way or another to the very real train, crews, trackside seediness and "disappearing railroad" its lyrics ride on.
That song talks a lot about what one sees FROM a train, and there are some less serious train songs that also offer that kind of travelogue. For example, when Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills and Nash takes us on a trip on the "Marrakesh Express."
As for old blues lyrics involving trains, lots of those focus pretty heavily on the train itself, but most of them also seem to be about a lover leaving or somebody dying.
I've always liked the Rolling Stones' take on that, "Love In Vain." ("I followed her to the station with a suitcase in my hand....When the train left the station, it had two lights on behind.") Did they write that or is it older?
Come to think of it, some of my favorite "train lyrics" are the exact opposite---that one little image of a train that sets a tone or ties up a loose end in a song that's not about trains at all.
Two examples (lyrics my best recollection):
Grateful Dead again, "Mama Tried": "First thing I remember knowing, was a lonesome whistle blowing ..."
Johnny Cash, "Folsom Prison": "I hear that train a-coming, a-rolling down the track ..."
Another one where the train is incidental - but maybe not, in a way - is David Allan Coe's You Never Even Called Me By My Name in which he says that after writing the first two verses he sent it to a friend and said he had written the perfect country and western song. His friend wrote back and said he hadn't, because he hadn't said anything about a number of subjects, including trucks, prison, Mama, trains, and getting drunk. So he wrote another verse, which goes like this: "I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison, and I went to pick her up in the rain, but before I could get to the station in the pickup truck, she got runned over by a damned old train."
Anyway, it's a great song.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Come to think of it, some of my favorite 'train lyrics' are the exact opposite---that one little image of a train that sets a tone or ties up a loose end in a song that's not about trains at all."
My favorite along those lines is "House of the Rising Sun," with the line "One foot on the platform, the other foot on the train..." It's literal, since the character in the song is boarding a train, but it's also figurative, as if the character is torn between going to New Orleans to gambling (and, he knows already, his ruin) and staying in his hometown and getting an honest job, etc.
[ House of the Rising Song ]
The original song is traditional, and is about prostitution. Bob Dylan sang it that way, IIRC--that is, using the female gender ... "it's been the ruin of many a poor girl..."
So the train metaphor is perhaps even more powerful, between home, stability (the platform) and the foreign, impermanent, fast moving (the train).
the end of the song as I remember it is:
With one foot on the platform
And one foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans
To wear that ball-and-chain.
Yes, House of the Rising Sun is a great one.
And I never really noticed its train angle before, even when the song was running through my head during a recent visit to New Orleans -- mainly because I never quite heard the "one foot on the platform" line properly.
A few tidbits from today's midday break:
I stopped by the World Trade Center terminal. As Steve mentioned a few weeks ago, a car cleaning program has been implemented there. An army of car cleaners enters E each train when it arrives, and picks up litter and mops. Nice job! (I'll be on the 5:08am departure tomorrow morning and will check on the overnight crew -- and how they deal with the 'traveling homeless hotel.')
Then I went up to Grand Central Terminal to visit the newly opened Transit Museum Store; rode an R-26 5 with minimal air conditioning in the first car. But the ride was worth it of course! The store had a poor selection of MetroCard holders; just two designs, neither of which had a transit theme (they were NYC-historical).
From there I rode a <6>"express." I still see that as an oxymoron - the express which normally runs local in Manhattan.
All in all, I had six swipes on my FunPass in four hours :-)
Yeah, I freaked too the first time I saw a "6 express" What the hell is an express local anyway?
It runs on the 3rd track farther than the local does (the local 6 goes to Parkchester-E177 Street). Thus it gets the name thru-express. Why can't the MTA take the express of the thru express 6 trains in the R110A?
6 express meaning express to the Bronx pm hours from the Bronx in the AM and as always a LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL
gheesh!
I am told the WTC cleaners are not there 24/7. The AM crew works 9 AM to 5 PM with Sat/Sun off. The PM crew works 5PM to 1AM with Fri/Sat off. Parsons/Archer is staffed 24/7. The homeless is not a problem on the E right now due to the summer. But wait till winter......
Indeed, Bill, there were no cleaners this morning when I took the 5:06 (which departed at 5:03:30!). The homeless population was down too. And thanks to a GO, we were express from Canal through 42nd Street, and took that infrequently-used turnout from the uptown express track to the 50th Street Queens-bound station.
The old mechanical interlocking machines in the towers could be operated by monkeys on stools. They could pull and push the levers on the GRS machines and turn the levers on the US & S machines. They like peanuts and don't have to a member of the TWU.
Lets hire some.
Maybe Monkeys can operate trains!!!
< Maybe Monkeys can operate trains!!! >
I can see where this is heading. I have heard NYC referred to as a Socialist Republic. Are you suggesting its really a Banana Republic?
David, I'm sorry but is there a point to this line of discussion?
I think I have a pretty decent sense of humor but I seem to have missed the point of the thread about rats operating trains and this current one. Frankly, though, while I don't think you meant to be, I find the thread(s) offensive. While it may seem like an easy job, I think that the people who operate the NYCT trains are for the most part, highly competant (although possibly a bit disgruntled).
I've ridden many a cab late at night and seen work-gang after work-gang pop out of nowhere. The late-night can be absolutely scarey. Then watch a condictor try to close his(her)doors at 8 AM at Continental Av. Not as easy as it looks.
I used to tell an engineer friend of mine (when he would say that he wanted to pack it in)
I see a lotta train buffs and stuff around and plenty of wannabe's out here has anyone taken the civil service test and passed it?
rats, monkeys and other stuff sounds funny (ha ha) driving trains however WHAT DO you do for a living?/ oh excuse me Donald TRUMP
(NOT!) anyhow operating trains is no joking matter concentration on what you are doing or lack of can make a hell of a difference whether the people riding your train get from point a to b SAFE.
IF anyone thinks they can do the job better then fill oout an application take and pass the next exam and medical and welcome to The ballgame my friend.
I wasn't referring to NYCT and I have operated subway trains.
Mr. Pardi, The signaling system prevents motorman and train operators from getting into accidents and I design those system and place them into service including the Archer Avenue Extension, Livonia Yard and many other contracts on NYCTA.
If you have any questions about signaling please ask me.
Many thanks to you for providing our eyes to the traffic which lay ahead of us...
Thank you Steve. It's nice to know that someone at the top appreciates us.
I think I have a pretty decent sense of humor but I seem to have missed the point of the thread about rats operating trains and this current one. Frankly, though, while I don't think you meant to be, I find the thread(s) offensive. While it may seem like an easy job, I think that the people who operate the NYCT trains are for the most part, highly competant (although possibly a bit disgruntled).
I've ridden many a cab late at night and seen work-gang after work-gang pop out of nowhere. The late-night can be absolutely scarey. Then watch a condictor try to close his(her)doors at 8 AM at Continental Av. Not as easy as it looks.
I used to tell an engineer friend of mine (when he would say that he wanted to pack it in) that he had the fantasy job of 3/4 of all kids (boys?). I suppose most here would love to operate a subway train if given the opportunity so why dis those who do?
Steve, my remarks were not meant to be offensive. In fact, I wasn't even referring to NYCT. The train operators on MARTA leave alot to be desired with setting off deadman feature in the platform for the final stop and operating master controller from brake to coast and to power for jerking operation.
NYCT motorman or train operators are the most skilled in the industry simply because they have to be. They must observe all signals, especially grade time signals, and must operate trains with a master controller and brake valve as opposed to a one handle controller or automatic operation (ATO). PATH is another system with skillful engineers.
herky jerky operation by going from coast to off and to power position without a momentary pause before taking power to me would be the culprit. In a start from level track with say 10 lbs psi brake applied after the train has come to a stop there should be a rather smooth start. However from a full service application after releasing brakes and taking power immediately will make for an uncomfortable start.
Spoken like a true signal engineer! See folks, I told you the designers of the signal system thought we were monkees!
Try telling that to Davy, Mike, Peter, and Micky.
HEY SEAN, SPEAK UP AND DEFEND YOUR SUBWAY CREDENTIALS. YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT BE THE OFFICIAL SUBWAY HISTORIAN, HOWEVER, WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS. I THINK ITS PRETTY CLEAR THAT NO ONE PERSON SHOULD HAVE THAT TITLE WHEN SO MANY ARE QUALIFIED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
Most railfans probably don't know that there were two different configurations of third rails on the IRT. The Manhattan type was used on the Manhattan El with drop shoes on the cars and subway type you all know about. The Manhattan type had no board cover over on top however, had one on the side. Somes el such as the Jerome Avenue Line had both configurations to handle the cars from the old 9th Avenue El.
I had asked about dual third rail configurations earlier this year.
I recall seeing both types while the Polo Grounds Shuttle / Ex 9th Ave El connector was still in operation.
There were also two different configurations of third rail on the BMT. Elevated third rail was more similar to running rail, was placed higher and closer to the running rails and was always uncovered.
Subway third rail had a thicker section, more like a heavy "I" beam. I've seen this type of third rail advertised in industry publications as "BMT Section Third Rail."
BMT subway cars had compromise shoes that could operate on either. I remember the Brighton Line was changed over to BMT section until the late 50's or early 60's.
The H & M Cars were tested on the 2nd Avenue El before the H & M Railroad opened on February 25, 1908.
In light of your statement concerning the different types of third rail, the Second Ave. El must have been equipped with "Manhattan" (elevated) third rail, and so the H & M cars being tested must have been equipped with shoes designed for this type of third rail, which presumably were different from the shoes they used in actual service on the H & M. Right?
Is the third rail used on PATH today the same as on the NYCT subways?
How about the tripcocks on PATH cars, are they compatible with the IRT? Would it be physically possible for unmodified PATH trains to run today on the IRT?
Yes because the signaling is almost identical and the third rail looks identical and they are the same width
For IRT service,the trip cocks would have to be moved to the cab side.As the train stops and tripcocks are off the shelf items,I don't think there's any difference in height or clearance.
Contact shoes might be another matter. PATH uses three types of 3rd rail: Umbrella rail (inverted U shape)in most of the tunnels;a T shaped rail at Hoboken,and NYCT/LIRR square type at WTC and outdoors. The shoes are spring mounted to deal with the minor differences between types. They might be adaptable,as the distance from the running rail to the 3rd rail appears to be the same.
I would like to know this?How much longer will the 63rd St. Connection last and what will happen to train service.How many tracks will this use?What will happend to the 2nd Ave. line?
The 2nd Avenue Line was under construction and the city ran out of money and it was stopped.
I think the 63 Street connection would last forever... or until there are no more subways left.
Read the FAQ.
-Hank
Today me and my friend Mark were able to meet up with a good friend of mine from SEPTA at 69th Street Shops.SEPTA has just taken delievery of new work cars for the Market-Frankford EL. It consist of a crane car a tank car for spraying the ROW and a vacuum car. At the end of the crane car and the end of the vacuum car there is a cab at one end. The train is powered from the crane car and is diesel powered. The cab is very nice with heating and AC and has an M4 style Cineston Controller. The thing I cant believe is that each car weighs in about 113,000 pounds. That sounds a little to heavy for the elevated portions especially the Frankford end. They are complaining about how heavy the M4 carsare and that they are discovering cracks in the El becauseof that. I dont know if it is in the concrete or steel work. I heard but dont know if it is true tat they want to shut the line down from Erie up to Bridge to totally rebuild it? It dosent make sense but maybe I should consider the source. If anyone is intersted in seeing pictures of the work cars drop a line or maybe we can put it on the MFSE web page. It will be ashame to see the old work cars go though. They are beauts.
Where have you heard that cracks are forming on the el? I haven't heard anything about it. There are plans being developed as you read this to rebuild the Frankford Terminal, which will relocate the last 500 feet +/- of the structure off Frankford Avenue onto private R/W and across the front apron of the terminal, which will be greatly reconfigured. Also, the Church station will be completely rebuilt. It seems inconsistent that this work would be planned if the el had structural problems. It also seems strange that operation would continue with cracking beams. I would double-check your source.
Two 20th century personages important to the transit system were known as "Red Mike"--one ostensibly for having red hair, the other for Communist leanings. Can you name both?
Hint: only one's given name was Michael. I get the impression that the term "Red Mike" is older than either man. If anyone know its original derivation, if any, it would be a bonus.
They would be John Francis "Red Mike" Hylan, Mayor of NYC {elected 1918?} and ex-BRT motorman. Also self-proclaimed hater of the "wicked traction interests". And of course the beloved Mike Quill! "The judge can drop dead in his black robes, and we would not call off the strike."
One 'Red Mike' was Michael Quill. He lead the TWU during the 1966 transit strike. At one point during the strike for reasons that I've forgotten he stated that "the judges should drop dead in their black robes". But the joke was on Quill, for a few weeks later 'Red Mike' was Dead Mike.
I have noticed that the cars on the Grand Central Shuttle have been changed to the R62A's used on the 3 Train. They have the Blue bands underneath the number boards. Today I say on the 3 train a consist of R62A's that were from the shuttle with the yellow bands from the pelham line. What is the deal?
Peace
DaShawn
Ok... Well here we go! Thomas Maley, a fellow SubTalker has reported spotting an R36 odd couple on the Flushing Line recently. He reports that R36 9348 is now married to R36 9411. What happened to 9349 and 9410?
Anyone care to take a guess what's wrong with this picture?
-Stef
#9410 and #9411 were seen at Coney Island Shops on the May tour. I'm not sure why they were there but they weren't mated at the time.
#9410 looks like he's up on the blocks. Perhaps the kindly doctors have discovered something wrong with his trucks or motors.
Wayne
Is that the Money Train car behind it?
-Hank
According to the captioned image, yes!
9410 is a old 6 red bird
why is it on the 7 train
If you mean the R36ML, those are #9524-9559. The current assignment of R36WF to the #6 line starts with #9480.
Wayne
Thank you for responding (to all).
Dave and Wayne, please make note of the following: I was informed by a friend that two separate incidents occurred recently involving Flushing Line R36s.
9349 is out of service at Coney Island due to underbody fire damage.
9410 is out of service due to anticlimber damage.
The result? The odd lashup of 9348 and 9411.
This is in effect until further notice.
Details of the actual incidents (when or where) are not available, but if someone knows, please fill us in!
-Stef
I saw R36s #9349 with Loco#69 at Coney Island on Friday.
That answers that question!
-Stef
I am researching a novel that involves a subway accident. The victim is pushed in front of the subway and is caught between the train and the landing. The train pins him, crushing his bottom half but leaves him ok from waist up. The theory is that once the train is removed, his bowels will be sucked out and he will die instantly.
Are the subways designed to facilitate this scenario? What are the tolerances and mesurments between trains and ramps.
has this sort of accident ever happened? What are the procedures in case they do.
Is there any information in book form or on the web that I may be referred to that may assist me in my research.
The scene takes place on the New York Subway, but I welcome comments from all over the world.
I am writing from Jamaica - we do not have a subway
I thought the E, F & J/Z go to Jamaica! Oh, that Jamaica!!!
What's the "landing" that you are talking about? the platform?
Yes the platform, the place where people wait for the train. Frogive me.
I would think it would be very difficult for such a scenario to occur. The only place where there would be enough room to initially trap a person between the car and platform would be in a curved station - outside platform if the train is curving to the right, island platform if the train is curving to the left (or South Ferry inner loop). And the physical dynamics are such in any of those locations that the body would be completely severed almost immediately and there wouldn't be any concern about moving the train away from the body causing death.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a discussion about that sort of incident some months ago. You might be able to find it through the Subtalk "archives."
IIRC, it was pointed out that accidents of this type can happen, although fortunately they're rare.
I think we have beaten this thread to death (pardon the pun). What you describe is referred to as a "Space Case" on the NYCT. They were likely more frequent when the platforms had wooden Rub Boards. The Fiberglass boards not being as forgiving make space cases far less comon. In the two instances that I have seen first hand, the person was extracted using air bags to push the car body away from the platform edge. In both those cases, the person was alive until the air bags were inflated and the pressure removed from their bodies.
An episode of the American television show "Homicide: Life on the Street" had this exact same plot and the victim was removed (not rescued, really) in the manner Steve described with the air bags.
Maybe you should change your plot around so as not to sound like you are plagiarizing? (not saying you are, you've probably never seen "Homicide", but it might sound that way later on...)
-Dave
Yes, an actual incident like the one you describe happenned some years ago at the Dekalb Ave. station in Brooklyn, New York (it may have been the inspiration for that intense episode of the TV drama "Homicide").
For your research, you may want to contact NYPD's ESU (Emergency Services Unit) that most likely would have been on the scene for that incident, as well as local responding 'beat cops' from the 84th precinct, which covers the area of the Dekalb station. There should be a general NYPD website for you to begin some research.
Hope that helps.
Doug aka BMTman
What year did the fare control area at the south end of Mosholou Pkway close? After laying up a train at Mosholou Yard I was walking to the train station and passed by the shuttered street stairway on my way back to Woodlawn.
another question
was there ever another fare control area at Dyckman Street number 1 line?
The Mosholu Pkwy (this is the correct spelling of the station, but grammar does not count) south end fare control was closed some time when i was in high school from 1971 to 1975 as far i can remember. I may be wrong.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I've taken the 1 from Dyckman a few times but haven't seen any evidence of a second fare control area. Have you noticed something there?
How far does a train have to be to activate the gates at a train crossing?
The trains appear to be several hundred feet away
That depends entirely on the crossing. Crossings where trains pound through at 85 miles an hour (such as the LIRR main line) must be tripped further back than a crossing in downtown Riverhead.
At the station stop in Riverhead, BTW, the conductor can key the gates manually so that a train making an extended station stop doesn't time up the road.
All crossing gates have that feature, where train crews can manually interrupt the gates. It's required by rule, lest the traffic build up for miles while a train is sitting for whatever reason.
The gates function not as distance per-se but as time to. The FRA requires that crossing gates begin flashing X seconds before the train arrives, and the gates must be down X seconds before. Older systems used track circuits based on speed in the zone and lengthened them accordingly. Modern systems use complex circuitry which senses a train's speed and is more accurate and reliable.
I live out in the country so very few of the RR crossings around here have crossing gates, but most crossings have Highway Flashers to warn motorists of approaching trains. The flashers seem to give motorists more than ample time to stop for an approaching train. Many motorists stop, gauge the speed of the approaching train, and then scoot across in front of it. This is dangerous at best. People don't seem to realize that a train can't stop in the short distance that a car can. I believe that a RR engineer is required to sound the locomotive's horn or whistle for a highway crossing. The standard warning is two longs, a short, and a long. The last long blast is to be sounded until the first locomotive is completely occupying the highway crossing.
Karl B
The information is covered in the "Code of Federal Regulations" but I seem to remember a rule of thumb like "the distance must be sufficient to provide 20 seconds of protection with the gates down at MAS." Perhaps someone has their copy of the CFR handy.
That sounds right. I don't have a copy of the code, but got quite familiar with it a few years back after my father had a close call with the Carolinian in the Kannapolis/Salisbury (NC) area. In that particular incident, the lights started flashing and the gates began coming down less than two seconds before the train, travelling close to the track speed of 79 mph, hit the crossing. Dad was able to stop in time but the front of his car still shows the marks from the gate closing on top of it. The circuit is supposed to be able to read the speed of the train and bring the gates down at the appropriate time. Seems Norfolk Southern had been plagued with many complaints about early gate closures there and rather than fixing the real problem (the circuit was reading all trains as 79 mph, including the frieghts coming upgrade out of the nearby yard at 10 mph) they bypassed the speed check and wired the lights/gates to a fixed trip based on a train speed of 15 mph. (This entire scenario only applied to southbound trains, by the way - northbound everything worked properly.) It took about eight months after my father's near-miss for the problem to be resolved, complicated in part by the dispute between NS and the state of North Carolina over the trackage lease and in part by the devil-may-care attitude of the NC Department of Transportation. NS wanted the state to pay for the repairs and vice-versa; ultimately, the local police closed the road (after about six months and several more near-misses) and when the truck lobby started screaming to their friends in the legislature NCDOT fixed it to shut them up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This afternoon there was a 12-9 I think is was aboard a northbound 5 in the loop from 138th st gc to Mott ave lower level. All I know is it messed up service on lexington Av and northbound #2. Any gossip?
Well at White Plains Terminal I was told A person tryed to Board the train Between the cars as the Northbound was leaveing and fell under.
That is why I consider myself a frustrated/disgusted/burned out motorman. Because of one passengers' stupidity, some crew has to give urine, see the TA "doctor", go to Control Center to give a story, get interviewed by NYPD, get their working hours changed and be restricted (more like penalized) to a broiling platform job till all the paperwork is squared away.
Spelling correction tried and leaving
Friday afternoon? I observed something peculiar on Friday night as a rerouted #4 made it's way onto the 2/5 line carrying passengers to E180 St before heading back lite. The rerouted #4 headed back south carrying no passengers.
The rerouted #4 was followed by a #5 (northbound) that wasn't in service. I wonder what could have happened?
-Stef
E & F trains will be greatly affected by this from 12:01 AM Sun to 5:00 AM Monday over the next 3 Sundays into early Mondays: July 11/12, 18/19, 25/26 . Various track and roadbed work/replacement will be accomplished on the Manhattan bound tracks south of Queens Plaza to north of 50St/6th Ave. E & F trains will operate local thru Queens because the R will not operate there. E trains will make all stops from Parsons/Archer to Whitehall St. middle track. Manhattan bound F trains will be rerouted over the G line between Queens Plaza & Bergen St. Queens bound F service will operate normal. Here is where it get complicated: There will be an additional F service along Sixth Ave. terminating at Church Ave. where passengers can transfer to the "regular" F to continue toward Coney Island. This other F will relay in Church Ave. yard, proceed lite (without passengers) to 21 St., relay again, proceed lite to 50 St./6th Ave. where it will go in service to Church Ave.
Now that's a bizarre service change ...
Mnay cities have their transit systems going into the suburbs. What should happen is extend the A to E. Rockaway, the 7 to the meadowlands, the J to Floral Park (Nassau), the E to Great Neck. and all of the Bronx lines into Westchester.
The suburban communities wouldn't want subway lines making their neighborhoods more accesable to "riff-raff". What they should do is extend some lines to cover some of the more extreme areas not now covered. Possible extensions:
The F from 179th to Francis Lewis Blvd./Hillside Ave.
The E from Jamaica Center along the LIRR ROW to Laurelton, or as subway down Parsons Blvd. to S. Conduit Ave.
The 7, from Main St., along Northern Blvd. to Francis Lewis Blvd.
The 2/5 from Flatbush along Nostrand to Voorhies Ave.
The 4, from Utica Ave, along Utica to Floyd Bennet Field.
The D, from 205th St., along Gun Hill Rd. to Co-Op city.
If they are going to extend the "F", they should terminate it at Springfield Boulevard at the least, and Little Neck Parkway at the best. Hillside Avenue is very wide at Springfield Boulevard, making i a good location for a terminal station. Francis Lewis should rate a local stop. Other stops: 188th, 197th, (FLB), 212th-Hollis Court.
If extending to Little Neck: Winchester Blvd-Creedmoor, Commonwealth Boulevard, Little Neck Parkway.
Wayne
Yonkers and Mount Vernon might be receptive to subway extensions because they are are more urban than the rest of Weschester Co. It would be plausible to extend the #1 under Broadway to the Metro-North station in Yonkers and the #5 under South 5th Avenue to Metro-North in Mount Vernon. The population density seems to be there. However, I think the MTA is far more likely to deal with service within the city limits unless there was a very strong push from Westchester. I think the county runs the Bee Line bus system without financial support from the MTA, so it may feel it deserves more for being within the MTA service area. (In fact, why aren't the Westchester buses part of the MTA?)
Some extension would be practical and/or possible but forget the J line. When the parsons Archer extension was built, there was no provision for extension of that line. What was considered was the connection between the J & E north of Parsons Blvd. This would have provided needed flexibility in the event of a closure of the Williamsburg bridge. However, this was scrapped because there was little likelihood that closing the bridge for an extended period was small (NOT). They decided to spend the money (a few million) elsewhere.
The original plan called for the extension of the E top Rodedale. There is actually a 1/2 mile of additional track north of Parsons Blvd. This plan gets trotted out every now and then but is not a high priority. This is actually the way subway service should be extended to JFK. Coming from the east (instead of the West) land is less developed and capacity on the Queens corridor is greater than on the Fulton St. line, especially with the 63rd St connector opening.
Similarly, extension of the #7 to eastern Queens and the F to Hillside and Springfield Blvd. or Langdale Street has also been considered. Extension of the 7 will likely never happen as it would be less expensive for the MTA to increase capacity and service on the LIRR Port Washington branch. If the 7 were extended out to (lets say) Douglaston, there would be adequate space for a transit hub to be built. However, the subway would essentially kill off the PW branch west of that point and over-stress the #7 line west of Main St., where capscity could not be added - easily.
Highest on the MYA priority is the extension of the N train to laGuardia Airport. This would be feasible but would likely be opposed by the locals (people - not trains) and the Port Authority who would like to compete with an extension of the Air Train. Cab drivers would also oppose such an extension and it is rumored that the Pakistani government has already stated that it would oppose such an aggressive act against their citizens. However, prison reform activists support this plan. Not only would it provide service to Rikers island for visitors but escaping prisoners would also have a 'one fare ride' back into the city.
[Highest on the MTA priority is the extension of the N train to laGuardia Airport. This would be feasible but would likely be opposed by the locals (people - not trains) and the Port Authority who
would like to compete with an extension of the Air Train. Cab drivers would also oppose such an extension and it is rumored that the Pakistani government has already stated that it would oppose such an aggressive act against their citizens. However, prison reform activists support this plan. Not only would it provide service to Rikers island for visitors but escaping prisoners would also have a
'one fare ride' back into the city.]
Something tells me that the escapees would be the sort who'd engage in a wee bit of turnstile-jumping before paying their fares. And is it just me, or is everyone else more than a bit shocked that the Pakistani government is meddling in transit affairs, of all things?
I AGREE WITH THE TURN-STILE JUMPING..(oops caps)
Hey, that could work out pretty good -- You let them out of Rikers, bus them to the subway stop and have some transit cops there so when they jump the turnstile, you arrest them and bus them back to Rikers.
And is it just me, or is everyone else more than a bit shocked that the Pakistani government is meddling in transit affairs, of all things?
The theater of the absurd is played out on many stages. This particular absurdity will be played out beneath the sidewalks of NY. Oddly enough, last year India and Pakistan were threatening each other with nuclear weapons. In a bizzar turn of events, however, the nuclear weapons have given way to Rupees, Dollars and steel rails. While Pakistan has waged a huge campaign at City Hall to block all subway service to JFK and LaGuardia, the Indian government has been funneling huge sums of Rupees into the imminent senetorial campaign war-chest of Hillary Clinton (who favors the subway extension). Pakistan has been doing likewise for the mayor who figures to be the Republican nominee. After a private meeting with the first lady, the Indian ambassador stated that Mrs. Clinton is committed to extending the N train right up to the USAir terminal and she will not rest until every Pakistani cab driver has been driven from the streets of Queens. This announcement was met with tremendous approval in NewDelhi.
Ah Steve superintendent of Cashmere subway sweaters!
"While Pakistan has waged a huge campaign at City Hall to block all subway service to JFK and LaGuardia, the Indian government has been funneling huge sums of Rupees into the imminent senetorial campaign war-chest of Hillary Clinton (who favors the subway extension). Pakistan has been doing likewise for the mayor who figures to be the Republican nominee."
Fee Fi Fo Fum. Methinks I smell a troll! (^:
"After a private meeting with the first lady, the Indian ambassador stated that Mrs. Clinton is committed to extending the N train right up to the USAir terminal and she will not rest until every Pakistani cab driver has been driven from the streets of Queens."
Damn, that troll is coming in loud and clear now! (^;
But if India succeeds in getting rid of all the Pakistani cab drivers, aren't they just asking for a retaliatory strike (through the Health Department) against the Indian Dunkin Donuts franchisees?
[Before anyone takes their flamethrowers out, that last one is a joke too. I patronize Indian-owned donut shops, concession stands, corner pharmacies, etc. all the time. But just as the **stereotypical** cabbie is Pakistani, the **stereotypical** Dunkin Donuts or newsstand operator is Indian.]
I'll bet you the moon that Hilliary Clinton has never taken a ride on any subway in the world. She rides in limos with armed Secret Service Agents. What does she know about rapid transit and riding an Airplane out of LaGuardia Airport?
John Bredin, Esq., she is a well trained attorney and polished politician. I don't believe that seasoned New Yorker's will fall for her.
In regards to rapid transit, she should ride the subway in New York with her Secret Service Agents. They should not stop the subway trains everytime her limo passes over or under a subway line like her husband Bill. She wouldn't get my vote if my train stopped to let her go by.
Maybe she should build that "Bridge to the 21st Century" like her husband promised and that bridge would be both the Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges.
Unfortunately, the Democratic Party has shown what a low opinion they have for the NY voter by trotting out the first lady as a viable candidate. Former Governor (and embarrassment) Mario Cuomo says Hilly knows the issues since the senate issues are national and not local. However she does not have the understanding of what votes are important to NY. The loss of Al D'Amato and his position on the Senate Banking Committee has already led tot he loss of nearly $100 million in transit funds for NY. With Chucky and Hilly teamed up, we'll have ox-carts on the rails (and no R-68 comments please).
Steve, help me out here. Just who in the ---- put the idea in Hillary Clinton's head that anybody in New York wanted her here anyways? Thanks, Salvo.
Steve and Salvatore: Right on about Hillary. I'm glad I'm coming to New York this summer because, so help me GOD, if New Yorkers are dumb and stupid enough to elect that crooked, nasty, and disdainful carperbagger I'll never set foot in New York again. Please, don't make the mistake of putting her in. What a catastrophe that would be.
On a more pleasant note, I need some information from you residing New Yorkers. Is there any progress being made concerning the improvements on the Manhattan Bridge? Again, so help me, I was thinking about the Canal Street station that precedes the crossing of the bridge. When I rode the Sea Beach as a kid to my grandparents' houses, Canal Street meant that we were heading for Brooklyn, which to me then was God's Country. Can someone tell of the timeline for completing the bridge's
imrovements? I would like to see my favorite train cross that bridge
again.
Fred, I'm afraid I cant'tell you too much about the current progress being made on the bridge. Since I work out here on Long Island, I really only get close to the city on weekends. I'm sure one of the other guys can give you the information you're looking for. They've answered a lot of my questions. I hope you have fun when you make it up here. Take care, Salvatore.
I'm sorry but I can't help you with anything more than a very rough time-line. Seems like the best estimates are 2001. Best we can offer you is the B/D/Q across the bridge on the other side.
Maybe you've covered this before, Fred, But I'm curious.
What is it about the Sea Beach that you like so much? Why did you pick it over other lines as your favorite?
You wanna know what is possible???First of all,Queens is the only place that has little subway.Here is one thing expand the F line to where it is at 179St. then to the Nassau/Queens Border.These will be the new stations.1)188st.2)197st.3)Francis Lewis Blvd.4)212St.5)Springfield Blvd./Bradddock Av.6)Wenchester7)Cross Island Pkwy.8)Little Neck Pkwy. and last 9)268St..This line could use 2 levels.The lowest level will be storage and use 4 Tracks also the higher level.
How about an LRV on the old Rockaway Branch from Queens Blvd to Howard Beach?
[But if India succeeds in getting rid of all the Pakistani cab drivers, aren't they just asking for a retaliatory strike (through the Health Department) against the Indian Dunkin Donuts franchisees?
Before anyone takes their flamethrowers out, that last one is a joke too. I patronize Indian-owned donut shops, concession stands, corner pharmacies, etc. all the time. But just as the **stereotypical** cabbie is Pakistani, the **stereotypical** Dunkin Donuts or newsstand operator is Indian.]
Chicago must be different from New York - at least as far as I've noticed, Indians don't seem to dominate the donut-shop business. What most likely is that different immigrant groups cluster in different specific occupations depending on location. For instance, I've heard that most donut shop operators in Southern California are Cambodian.
Actually, the next Indian-Pakastani conflict will be fought on the battlefields of the local 7 - 11s
Or within the halls of my current employer. One of the things I've learned is who I can and cannot assign to the same projects or have share offices. The multi-ethnic setting can be a wonderful experience but it can also be a real headache! I made the mistake of putting two Indians from significantly different castes in the same office about three years ago, and I've had a person of mainland Chinese origin refuse to work with one of South Korean origin. And my Hispanics don't care to work with my Jamaican (who gets along just fine with everyone else). I've given up trying to understand it all - I've got more work to be done than they can all do anyway so I just sort them accordingly and things work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If London Transport could start again from scratch, I don't think they would contemplate extensions beyond the London area (currently the eastern end of the Central Line and the Western end of the Metropolitan Line). They are a funding nightmare, and whenever a piece of infrastructure wears out, no-one wants to pay for it. This is particularly the case for the Central Line, as Essex County Council is pretty anti-public transport.
Why Not Extend The "E" Line To Green Acres Shopping Mall In Valley Stream LI Via Merrick Blvd (The MTA's Q5 Bus Currently Serves This Route From the Parsons/Archer Station (E,J,Z) To Green Acres). The "E" Line has Two Tracks That Curve to the Se. for approx 3000 Feet Beyond the platforms at Parsons/Archer station. These tracks were Originally Planed to extend from 179th Street Station on the "f" line (& the "E" Line Prior To Archer Ave Ext.) As part of the IND Second System In 1925 Later Revised in 1975 (From Book Uptown Downtown) This route would travel south from 179th st/Hillside av to LIRR Montauk Branch And then Se. Along LIRR Right of way to Springfield Gardens, Queens. This Ext. could be a Express Only route. The "A" Line Can Be Extendend to meet this line from Lefferts blvd Station to Liberty Avenue/Merric Blvd Then continue with the "E" To Green Acres Mall.
Also In Brooklyn extend the IRT #2 Line S. From Brooklyn College/Flatbush Ave Station South on Flatbush ave To Avenue "U" & Kings Plaza Shopping Mall.
Both Kings Plaza In Brooklyn And Green Acres Shopping Center In Valley Stream Can Be Used As Transit Hubs And Park & Ride Lots.
Green Acres Is Served By Bus Routes MTA Q5, Q85 Lines And MTA Long Island Bus Routes N1, N2 & N3. Kings Plaza Is Served By MTA B2, B3, B9, B41, B46, B78 And Green Bus Lines Route Q35.
Great ideas, but how do you propose to pay for this?
Put those three cars into use for the GCT, and also make them as guinea pigs for an experimental R-type similar to the new B division R143s, with all the automatic R143 fixings, except that this one would be IRT division.
How do-able would this experiment be?
Sorry if I am opening a new can of worms here....
It's gonna take a lot of body doctors to fix those three up. #1436 is the least damaged (bonnet, anticlimber #1 end).
#1435: Bent frame, anticlimber (BOTH ends), broken bonnets (both ends) crush damage to sides #1 end
#1439: Bonnet, anticlimber and roof damage #2 end; body damage to left side. Picture of cop standing in open door did not show any damage but it was all further back. #1439 got clipped by #1440 before the latter ricocheted into the sheared-off #2 end of #1437.
Wayne
Even if they could be repaired, there's no point in putting R-143-type doodads in them as a test bed. The R-142 and R-142A series (total 1,080 cars), which are now in production, will already have these doodads. The only major thing the R-143 will have that the R-142/142A won't is CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control) capability. That's because the IRT doesn't have any CBTC-equipped lines and won't for some time (probably never if the Canarsie Line CBTC experiment doesn't work).
David
They could probably do it on the Flushing line, but obviously not as long as they plan to use either the Redbirds or the R-62As on it.
That sucks
If there was a (real) Subway race what type of subway car would you use? Everyone has to has a subway car that is their personnal favorite car. If I had to Race I would use the R-62 car #1350 and where would be a good place to race?
Brighton Line from Sheepshead Bay to Church Avenue.
I'd probably want an R40 (#4314, #4399, #4208 or #4163) to race with, as usual.
Wayne
i would use 1608 on the 6, 1701 and 1708
from 125 st to brroklyn bridge
if they fit on the west side the A train line till wtc building.. end of c train
I'd take the R62 or R62A onto the Central Park W IND between 125th and 59th or the Lexington Avenue Line between 125th and Brooklyn Bridge.
I'd choose a BMT Triplex.
Slow to get started, but once it got moving it would crush the competition.
Literally.
You're right - the Triplex was one unit you did not want to have a collision with. Two of them did collide once, at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. There must have been one helluva bang when that occurred.
I would have loved to see a train of multisectionals go up against any other piece of equipment. Those units could most likely outrun even the R-10s in their heyday.
Speaking of collisions, one would have to wonder what would have happened if a Triplex had ever collided with a BMT standard. I think even a standard would have come away with a dent or two. Of course, the standards never did pick on anyone their own size...
Nothing like a good old subway demolition derby...
My favorite car is th super fast R68's.
What drugs are you taking? I'd like to try them. R-68. Huruphf!
From a professional point of veiw: Discarding the original R-44/46 because they no longer carry that propulsion gear. I would have to say the R-127/134. Yes they are not passenger cars, but they are the fastest. So fast (60 is do-able) that RTO had to issue a bulletin ordering them not to be run faster than 45 MPH. Take them to the Rockaways. Starting at the top of the North Channel Bridge, and running to Broad Channel. The work motors will beat any thing you could throw at em!
Of course I'd be cheating. Less weight and more horse power.
You're being facetious, right? The R-68s would have a chance in a turtle race with the Q units or maybe the R-44s. That's it.
Greetings fellas. I may be in Philly in a week, if I go I want to ride around on the SEPTA. Which SEPTA trains are using the AEM7's? Also, which lines? I know the line to Paoli/Downington hosts them, but the Media line too?? What are your opinions on the SEPTA Bombardier coaches? Someone told me they where pretty rough riding.
-Josh
P.S.-When you get the chance, check out my website some time at:
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/covent/929
The push-pull trains generally operate on R5 Paoli but can also be found on R7 Trenton. I believe the operation on R3 Media/Elwyn ended last summer. At any rate, you won't find them except for the peak hours, so you'll need to pay the higher fare to ride.
I haven't been on the Bombardier cars but I've heard the ride is a little rough.
I have ridden the push pulls- they like to use them on the R7 Express services. They dor die rough and the seats resemble those used on NJTs Atlantic City Line- not as comfy as their regular seats (both before renovation--the vinyl seats, and after- the gray fabric seats).
I wonder why it's the summer and the MTA is still running some trains, including express trains, in 11-car configurations, with that un-airconditioned R33 car sandwiched in the middle? Any reason why they are still doing that?
Lots and lots of people packed on the trains. Ridership is up, and removing the extra car cuts train capacity, which they need. Regular riders know which car to avoid on the train (third from the Queens end) In fact, just came from Shea, where the Mets beat the Yankees 9-8.
-Hank
The ever curious person I continue to be, what kind of locomotives / trainsets are used on particular NJT lines?
Anything is appreciated - the reason being that next week I will be scheduled to take a RT ride from New York Penn Station to Dover, my first outing using NJT. Does anyone at least know what's used there?
I believe the line to Dover (Morris & Essex) is electrified, so you should find either electric MU cars or electric diesels pulling any of NJTransit's passenger car equipment. I believe the passenger cars generally used there are the newer cars. I think the Morris & Essex may be the only electric line out of Hoboken (the main terminal, even though many trains originate at Penn Station via the fairly new Midtown Direct connection). The other lines are diesel. The lines out of Penn Station (Northeast Corridor & Jersey Coast) are electric lines. For lots of info on NJTransit and its equipment, see the Unofficial NJTransit webpage at http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~mjs6/hoboken.html
njt uses locomotive hauled equiment out penn station ny. the is a phase break where the locomotive changes voltages outside of harrison. comet III and IV are used on that line. the mu's run out hoboken along with diesel engines.
I ride the Morris & Essex from South Orange, NJ. 90% of the time trains comming from Dover are ALPs. Usually they are pulled into Penn (on the Midtown Direct service)and pushed heading the opposite way. Also NJT used their Arrows MUs on the Gladstone branch heading for Hoboken(the Arrow can't change at the phase break a little beyond Harrison. Very now and then you see a disel comming from the dover area but those are strictly heading for Hoboken (they aren't allowed in the Penn tunnels). If anything if you ride on a ALP push/pulled train it's better pushed because you can see out front (no loco in the way). The same is true on the Arrow heading for Hoboken but only if the engineer decide to leave the door to the cab open (either because it's hot out or they feel like talking to the conductors on board)
It's a cool line, two good phase breaks, you have one grade crossing (Convent station), two bridges, and the tunnel into Penn. A little bit of everything...
Ok, is this phase break where the voltage goes to the rumored 25kv that NJT uses? Also, doesn't NJT have a few 25K MUs?
I don't know the exact voltage NJtransit uses, but there is a definate phase break on the Morris & Essex about midway from South Orange and Maplewood. I know NJts Arrows can go thru that phase break but not the one past Harrison where the line connect with the line headed for Penn. If anyone knows the exact voltage used on each line I would like to know..
The trolley voltage changes at the corridor. It goes to 11k. On the Hobboken side it's 25k. All NJT equipment can be run in either voltage. Only the ALP44 locomotives can change on the fly. The ArrowIII MU cars must be manually reset in EACH car. Not convienient and only rarely done. Hence Arrows etiher run out of Pennsylvania station or Hoboken. But never crossing from one to the other. When going to the MMC for maintainence, they drop the pantographs, and are hauled by one of NJT's GP40-2 engines.
Is that manual reset just flipping a switch, or do they have to grab a wrench and change the lead from on transformer tap to another?
There's a togle switch in the computer cabinet of the even car.
I have a copy of the NJT rule book. The rules say that a 12K car can not be run on the 25K side. For services that cross the line (MidTown Direct) they use the push pull Comet Cars and the ALP44M locomotives which do switch from one to the other automatically. However, when MidTown Direect first started even the ALPs had some power drop outs and resulting breakdowns. NJT has gone through the learning curve and now there are very few problems.
On the side of each Arrow MU car you'll see 25K or 12K indcating the voltage.
The Hoboken sdie is 25K because NJT thought Amtrak was going to go to 25K however Amtrak stuck with the 12K. I'm sure Bob S with NJ ARP could elaborate more.
Those rules are for operating personnel. They DO NOT have the key for the computer cabinet. Only electricians do. And whenever cars are switched from divisions the decals are changed. This is purely a function of the mechanical dept.(our DCE) at request of the transportation dept (our RTO).
Which book are you looking at? The TRO electrical instruction book or the NORAC time table special instructions?
Does anyone have any further info on the Washington Hights tunnel.
I think its 180-190 feet underground. Why is it so deep? It's not under a river. Was it some sort of mining tunnel before it became a subway tunnel?
Washington Heights is aptly named - it is high ground. The route of the #1 train is essentially level. When the ground dips, as it does at 125th St. and again at Dyckman St., the train runs on elevated structure above the ground. When the ground rises, the train winds up deeper underground. I don't have exact figures, but any changes in the elevation above sea level of the #1 line along the whole stretch from 116th St. to Dyckman St. are minimal compared to the changes in elevation of the surface. From Dyckman to 242nd St. it's still pretty level. Probably the first mile after the #1 splits from the #2 and #3 (96th to 116th St.) has greater changes in elevation, as it follows the surface of Broadway, than the whole rest of the line to 242nd St.
People claim that not only can't the 75 foot cars clear a few curves on the Eastern Div., but that they are too wide for the span of the Williamsburg bridge, and I also heard about some problem with tunnel lights on the Nassau line. Since the sides of the cars are curvier, everyone assumes they must be wider at the bulge. But I thought it was possible that they could simply be narrower at the top. At first I tried to compare visually. They didn't seem to hang over the bottom any more than the R-40/42's which are curved, but not as much.
Then, while running to the GCT museum store to get the new Map,(Thanks, WMATAGMOH!) I ran across a book titles domething like "The Evolution of the NYC Subways", which was about all the different cars, from the earliest el cars to the R-142. It featured drafts of the dimensions. So I was right, that the roofline of the R-44, 46, 68 and 110B are narrower, at 9'0, than the widest part of the body, which is the same 9'9 as all the rest of the B div. cars., and the threshold is 10'0 In fact, on many of the older cars, the threshold is 4/7" wider, and other objects, such as guard lights also stick out, since the top is not curved in like the newer cars.(and this people should remember when pointing out "the 67ft B types often got their lights knocked off") So there is no problem with 75 foot cars on the Willy B bridge spa itself, or any other straight section of the eastern div.
So since one of the problem curves, on the eastern end of the span, has been rebuilt, and apparently eased, when it reopens, they should do tests with the 75 ft cars, and see if other questionable curves, like Myrtle Av. and Graham Av. are really a problem. If the former isn't, then they could do on the M what they do on the 5: have OPTO, and run the cars to Brooklyn rush hours. (If Graham is too tight, they could demolish the catwalk on the southbound track, and that would definitely clear up the problem.)
If they can't do either, it would be nice to have a fantrip or free special over the bridge to Canarsie or Eastern Pkwy on reopening day
The curve from the B'way line to the Myrtle line is too tight to allow 75' cars.
And while the 60' cars are a maximum of 9'9" wide, the 75' cars come to 10' over the threshold plates, which can easily be cut back. Putting a ruler to the R46 page, finds the bulge to also be 10'. This CANNOT be changed. Looking at the R110B, the car is 9'7" wide over the side sheets.
-Hank
From what I saw, the older equipment is not only also 10' over the threshold, but many of them are 4/7 wider. On the pages I saw, the 9'9 of the 75 ft cars was measured at the bulge, and as I saw, it did not hang over the threshold any more than than the 40/42's.
Speaking of the 110B's, I forgot to mention that the trucks were measured at 47' apart (center to center) and this was the same as the AB's. The 110B's were supposedly banned from the eastern div. because "the trucks were placed like 60ft cars and that makes the body swing out more". The 60 ft cars are 44' apart, (and the 75ft cars are 54' apart). So what then is the real problem with the 110B's?
Or, could this book have printed errors?
Well, the book does have several errors, but the drawing and included car info on the tech pages seems to be accurate.
-Hank
The book, "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual" shows the widest part of the R-46 (at the belly-band) at 9'9" wide.
If the Manhattan bridge is ever determined to be too unsound for B div. trains, perhaps the lighter smaller IRT cars would be less of a problem. Not only the weight, but also with the narrower cars both tracks could probably fit in the middle roadway, ending the torsion problem.
A ramp would be built from north of Atlantic to the lower level of Nevins St. and the tracks would continue straight down Flatbush Av. ext. and merge with the BMT tunnel somewhere along the line (The BMT wouldn't be running through there anymore, so you could reconfigure the ROW any way necessary). On the other side, it would use the existing tunnel leading to Canal St, but somewhere before the station (would be permanently cut off), you would turn off into a ramp to the Lexington line. It would come up in Spring St., where the line already has an extra trackway. The downtown express track would becone the new Brooklyn bound ramp, the extra middle track would become the new express, the uptown express would stay the same, and the uptown local would be moved over for the new uptown bridge track. If there is not enough space to do that, the uptown exp. would become the ramp track, and the local would stay the same. You would only be able to have peak direction exp. service to lower Manhattan on the middle track.
Under this idea, either the 6 would switch tracks at Brooklyn Bridge, and continue to Brooklyn, OR, the 6 express would finally become the 8, and run express in Manhattan as well. Between the 5 and the 8, one would go over the bridge with the 4, and the other one go through the tunnel. I'm not sure how to terminate the extra service in Brooklyn; perhaps one could switch over at Franklin and provide direct Lexington service to New Lots. Perhaps the junction near Franklin would have to be redone into a flying crossover to allow for this. And additional cars would be required.
I know this would be hightly unlikely, given all the construction required, but I just wanted to see what everyone thinks of it. There would be nonstop service between Nevins and 14th St
6 to the 8 train????Thats a laugh.... Never ever say that bout the 6 but its a good idea
But then the 6 would not be the Brooklyn bridge local anymore
Sounds confusing. I wouldn't like that at all. Then, there is no service to south of Canal Street or Boro Hall and Downtown Brooklyn unless I took the local which I would not do. I'd maybe make a 6th Avenue line from 21st Street join the 8th Avenue Line at W 4th Street using the tracks the JFK line used and go to WTC as a local the whole way down.
To both WMATAGMOH and John Betancourt, you would still have the 2 express tracks (or perhaps one if they couldn't widen that section of ROW) heading to Lower Manhattan, and either the 8 or the 5 would run express and through the tunnel (the bridge trains would turn out from the express tracks at Spring), and this would allow the 6 to still be the local to Brooklyn Bridge. One option would be just to extend the 6, and I included that in the event there were not yet enough cars, but it would be better to keep the 6 local the same and make the 6 express the 8, and make it express in Manhattan, and keep one express going through lower Manhattan.
The middle section of the Manhattan Bridge (between the two pairs of tracks) currently carries three traffic lanes. It is plenty wide enough for two tracks of B-division trains. It is wide enough for three but not quite for four. It may not be strong enough to carry trains without additional strengthening.
The side areas which currently carry trains could carry two lanes of passenger-car-only traffic each. At just over 10 feet wide the lanes would be too narrow for trucks and buses.
I don't think this switching of trains to the middle of the bridge is very practical, but even if were done, there would be no reason to make the new (centered) tracks be IRT. Unless you wanted to put four of them on the bridge, which doesn't seem to be what you had in mind.
If they wanted to reduce the weight. You know there's always the chance they'll decide it can't carry the trains that run now, but the IRT is lighter, and that may be an option, even though all the nceessary construction to connect it would be the barrier.
I always assumed the trains were wider than the traffic lanes, so it didn't look like you could fit as many lanes. If four IRT tracks could fit, then put the 7th Avenue on it as well (tracks would branch off the outer tracks between Atlantic & Nevins, and continue on Canal until the 7th Av line. An additional express would be needed to serve the tunnel, it could originate at 137th St, but you would have 6 IRT routes in Brooklyn.
But where would the BMT go?????
Better idea. Run the PCCs from Red Hook to Manhattan, up the center of Broadway. Its as likely to happen as anything else.
BUT, where are you gonna get the PCC's??
Well, Bob Diamond and company have a couple. And they could jump into the bidding war for the ones in Newark... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As promised, here's a report on the Boston Green Line Type-8 cars, from information gathered at this evening's Boston Street Railway Association (BSRA) meeting.
Cars 3802, 3803, and 3804 have been accepted and continue in limited revenue service. Cars 3805 and 3806 have been delivered and are undergoing acceptance testing. (3800 and 3801 are prototype/test cars.) So things are going very slowly.
From the Mattapan-Ashmont PCC rebuild program, it is anticipated that the first car to be completed, 3265, will be outshopped later this month or early next month. It has been decided, by the way, to repaint the fleet in the original orange and creme colors and design. So when Newark's fleet is gone in the not-too-distant future, we in Boston will have a revitalized PCC fleet for decades to come!
Whew! Today's transit day started on the 5:06 a.m. E Train departure from World Trade Center, and ended this evening at the BSRA meeting in downtown Boston. Somewhere in the middle was eight hours of weather on the 8's!
Thank you very much for the info, Todd! I'm sorry I wasn't in town to here your weather forecasts....I'll have to tune in sometime. -Nick
Was it Car #3668 or Car #3669? A couple of sources say #3669, but one source claims #3668.
Moreover, it now claims that 3669 is indeed in an odd pairing with 3628.
Has anyone seen 3628 (or 3669) recently?
The car that was wrecked at the Malbone Portal on Dec. 1, 1974 was indeed #3669. And you are absolutely correct when you cite the Odd Couple #3628-3669. #3668, undamaged in the incident, was converted from an even-numbered to an odd-numbered unit, and thus renumbered #3669. It was then paired with #3628, whose mate lost her A-end in a 1971 collision north of 59th Street. See the picture of this wreck in the R32 Roster section. (It may be erroneously numbered as #3628). My Dad, who worked at 207th Street, has #3629's curtain roll.
#3628-3669 were last sighted on the "C" and probably are out of Pitkin Yard although there's been a car swap, so they may be at Jamaica now.
Wayne
3628-3669 are still part of the Pitkin fleet.
Thank you, Bill; their "C"s will stay.
Wayne
Well, R62 #1391 was damaged by a bomb and by an accident at Wakefield Yard, yet still survived both incidents.
Any other car which can match #1391 in unluckiness and story of survival?
#1391 was at the opposite end of the consist during the Wakefield incident - it was #1400 that took the sock in the kisser from #8980.
#4328-4329 was in the consist during two "B" train accidents - one on August 15, 1994 and the other on Feb. 9, 1995, but were not damaged in either incident. Oddly enough, the cars sustaining damage were #4260 and #4259, only one number apart, but in separate pairs.
Wayne
"Things" start to happen to "unlucky" cars. Superstition runs deep.
The lead car of an LIRR train that killed a trackworker was torched. The car where Colin Ferguson went on his rampage had its interior replaced and was renumbered.
The name of Malbone Street was changed. Boston passed a law specifying that no nightclub could be called "Cocoanut Grove" after the famous fire. Bon Vivant soup passed from existence after a botulism incident.
Surprisingly, the LIRR has changed neither the train number nor the departure time of tge death train--the 5:33pm Hicksville Local still runs.
I've wondered why the LIRR will not schedule a train #1. Until a couple of years ago, the lowest numbered trains were Montauk runs. Now trains 1-200 are Babylon trains, but the lowest numbered train is still #2.
["Things" start to happen to "unlucky" cars. Superstition runs deep.
The lead car of an LIRR train that killed a trackworker was torched. The car where Colin Ferguson went on his rampage had its interior replaced and was renumbered.
The name of Malbone Street was changed. Boston passed a law specifying that no nightclub could be called "Cocoanut Grove" after the famous fire. Bon Vivant soup passed from existence after a botulism incident.]
Was the torched car the one that was burned at Huntington, and can be seen today at Hillside Yard?
BTW - While most of Malbone Street was renamed Empire Boulevard, a short stretch still bears the original name. And IIRC, you don't see Bon Vivant soup any longer because the company failed after the incident.
But note that airlines are quick to change flight numbers after crashes. You won't find a flight 800 on TWA anymore.
Was the torched car the one that was burned at Huntington, and can be seen today at Hillside Yard?
It was at Hillside, nearer the Montauk Branch. I suppose what's there now is the same one.
BTW - While most of Malbone Street was renamed Empire Boulevard, a short stretch still bears the original name.
But the remaining piece is parallel to, but on the saw alignment as, current Empire Blvd. There has to be a story to that snippet of road, but I've never heard it.
And IIRC, you don't see Bon Vivant soup any longer because the company failed after the incident.
Not sure, but I think the Bon Vivant name was owned by a bigger company, and they dropped it.
But note that airlines are quick to change flight numbers after crashes. You won't find a flight 800 on TWA anymore.
In general, people are becoming more blase about that stuff (but maybe not crashed airplanes). People seem to have forgotten the bad associations of Tylenol and the MGM Grand Hotel. Philadelphia's Bellevue Stratford was renamed after Legionaire's Disease, but now its the Bellevue Stratford again.
Was it P.T. Barnum who said "I don't care what you say about me, as long as you spell my name right"?
Where is the current Malbone St located?
Its about 7 blocks east of the wreck site and a block north of Empire Blvd.
Then it got to be in my old neighborhood(Crown Heights). Not too far from where I went to school. P.S.221 The Empire School. By either Schenctady or Utica Avenues.
For those who are interested in the exact location of today's Malbone Street:
It runs west from New York Avenue between Empire Boulevard and Montgomery Street and goes a half block to a side street called Clove Road. Closest station is Sterling Street (#2/#5).
Wayne
Wow!!!! I was just there a couple of weeks ago renting a car. I was on Empire between Clove Rd and NY. I never went up on Clove Rd. I would pass it driving down Montgomery................
I heard there was a section of Brooklyn called Yellow Hook, and it's name was changed because of some didease. Forgot where exactly it was, but somewhere over on the harbor
You must be talking about Red Hook......................
No, it was an entirely different section that was renamed, I think near Bay Ridge, or something. So there was Red Hook AND Yellow Hook.
I believe that the car in which the shooting occurred was #9892. Do you know if its new number?
Wayne
Don't know the exact number, but I believe it was numbered at the top of the series. That would make it, what, 9951? 9971? I think its mate was renumbered, too.
That would make it #9947-9948. I'll be on the lookout for it.
Wayne
One source claims 212, and another claims 216. What is the correct number? (I assume that they want full 8-car fleets, hence I hope 216 is the number they are going to deliver...)
Also, any knowledge on what numbers are going to be assigned to the new R143s?
The exact number of cars is 212 (100 in the base order, plus an option for 112). I don't know the numbers yet.
David
[One source claims 212, and another claims 216. What is the correct number? (I assume that they want full 8-car fleets, hence I hope 216 is the number they are going to deliver...)
Also, any knowledge on what numbers are going to be assigned to the new R143s?]
Hello folks, Please be advised that the # 7 line is now running 10 car trains!!!!!!!! Somebody must have smelled the coffee. So watch out for the gap on the north end. This looks so much better maybe they should keep it this way. also they run better and stop better WITHOUT the single car.
Just because the single cars have fans instead of a/c, that doesn't mean the cars are defective. Long live the single cars!
I concur!
I object!
LONG SLOW AND PAINFUL DEATH FOR THE SINGLE CARS (sorry for the caps but I was very emotional about that).
So that the conductor cn point to the board, Manhattan bound 10 car # 7 trains stop at the 11 car marker meaning the last car gets a double load. Flushing bound trains stop one car length short of the 11 car marker so the first car get a double load. Mark my words: some newspaper and or TV station will yell that #7 line riders are getting screwed because they now have to squeeze into a10 car train rather than an 11 car train. And the TA will be raked over the coals by the NY media for it. No matter what the TA does, they are always wrong.
I don't understand why they can't run R-62s on the 7 and transfer the R-36s to the mainline.
Remember that the Flushing cars are set up with BMT-IND style trips. Only the singles are set up both ways. Because of this things tend to stay put. 11 car trains will probably return in September when things cool down and traffic picks up!
[ Remember that the Flushing cars are set up with BMT-IND style trips.
Only the singles are set up both ways. Because of this things tend to
stay put. 11 car trains will probably return in September when things
cool down and traffic picks up! ]
This is a rather common misconception. Unfortunately, it's not true. Take a look next time you're on the flushing line. The trip arms are on-sides (On the right), IRT-style, as opposed to off-side, BMT-style. The R33S cars do have tripcocks on both sides, however, which is necessary whenever a move is made off of the flushing line, via the Astoria line.
If the trip arms _were_ off-sides, there wouldn't be the need to have a 33S lead the train when making moves to the shops, as the trip would be entirely with off-side trip-arms.
Oh you mean the old red-birds??? Why dont they just put a/c's and heaters in them ?
There isn't enough room under the car body to place an A/C unit.
Only the single-car R33WF cars on the Flushing line are not A/C equipped, because unlike married pairs, which split the propulsion, braking, and converter equipment between the 2 cars, the single units have all that equipment under one car, leaving no extra room for the A/C compressor and condenser. (The blower and heat exchanger are on top of the car) An excellant resource for this is on www.howstuffworks.com, with the specific process here.
-Hank
Here's a way to solve the problem: Lengthen the platforms and run 12 , cool, perfectly AC'd cars. LOL
Remember that some of those platforms might be difficult to lenghten owing to their construction. Regular el platforms are fairly easy but Queensboro Plaza is pretty tight, especially the lower level (though the BMT side is 600', the IRT side has the sharp curve from Court House Sq.
Vernon-Jackson and Hunters Point Av. may also be tough along with 5th Av. & Times Sq.
Then there is the question of cars, since the IRT isn't exactly swimming in equipment at present. (It will be when the new cars come, but...)
You could probably fit 12 at 33st,40st,46st.
I donot understand. Thanks For your help Tom
john
As of when? I rode the #7 on Friday afternoon and the R-33 singles were right where they're supposed to be.
David
[Hello folks, Please be advised that the # 7 line is now running 10 car trains!!!!!!!! Somebody must have smelled the coffee. So watch out for the gap on the north end. This looks so much better maybe they should keep it this way. also they run better and stop better WITHOUT the single car.]
They may have added some extra 10-car trains because of the Yankees-Mets series at Shea this weekend. Somebody needs to check out the line on Monday during rush hour and see if they've decided more crowded -- but all air-conditions trains -- are what's going to run for the rest of the summer.
They cut them down Friday after the PM rush. I question the timing of this event and the complete closing and bypassing of Queensboro Plaza lower level this weekend in light of the sold out crowds at Shea Stadium this wekend for Yankees vs. Mets.
[ This looks so much better maybe they should
keep it this way. also they run better and stop better WITHOUT the
single car. ]
Upon what basis do you say that they run better and stop better without the R33S in the consist? The R33s should have pretty much identical performance characteristics as compared to the R36's..
Here is the picture that i took R30 #8336 & 8265 last week at Grand Concourse Yard.Noted: They are married pair
Nice picture!
-Stef
Looks like they're being used as a tool shed or 'slumber room' by the yard crew. (the all to obvious staircase at the front end)
Doug aka BMTman
It is a school car for Train Operators and Conductors.All cars used for this purpose have stairs to climb up to the train.
I know there are several out there. Among them are 8424 and 25 out at Coney Island, are used for a classroom, as is a pair at 207th St. 8289 and 90 are for police training down at Coney. We also can't forget about R16 6452 at PS 248.
I've heard there's an R10 (3189) school car at Pitkin.
This is a great way to learn about the subway, from within a subway car!
-Stef
It's a school car. TA uses them for Conductor and Motorman training. There's a pair like that in several yards. The ones at 207th and Coney Island have A/C units stuffed in the windows. AC power is supplied and the windows and doors are weather sealed with foam.
Thanks! I'll add it to the R30 section and to the roster of preserved cars.
-Dave
Any time David Pirmann
David"Meaney"Justiniano
I thought I saw a post earlier about this: that the "Money Train" car is featured in another movie.
Well, I went to see Spike Lee's "Summer of Sam" (very good BTW -- captures the flavor of the times). Funny thing was that one of the previews of upcoming films was something called "Stigmata" and is some kind of "Exorcist" rip-off or remark. Twice the audience got a glimpse of the "Money Train", but it looked like it was being used to represent an actual in-service subway car. Strange.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone know if the 4th volume of "Silver Connections" by Phillip Coppola has appeared? Since the closing of The New York Bound Book Store I've lost my usual source for information on this series.
When I was in New York in April, I heard that Volume IV was still a work in progress. There are two sources I can recommend that might give you more up-to-date information:
1) The bookstore at the Municipal Art Society's Urban Center on Madison Avenue just south of 51st Street (in the Villard Houses). This store, incidentally, is excellent for architecture and New York in general.
2) Arnold B. Joseph, a by-appointment-only book dealer specializing in railroads. The phone number is (212) 532-0019.
By the way, I bought volumes II and III at the Urban Center. Are any copies of Volume I available anywhere?
Has anyone noticed the "Help Wanted" ad in the Sunday N Y News? The Norfolk Southern is seeking to hire experienced locomotive engineers and conductors for freight trains. This ad surprised me because I thought that these positions were filled by working up through the ranks.
You may check out the ad on page 19 of the Metro-Your Neighborhood section.
Karl B
The key word is "experienced" and in the case of Engineers,licensed.
According to the March issue of "Trains" magazine,business is booming on freight railroads and promotions alone can't fill all the openings.
Thus,they're looking for experienced people who can be put to work in a minimum amount of time. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers maintains a job bank;openings are listed in their monthly newspaper.
The Railroad Retirement Board also lists job openings on their website. (www.rrb.gov.)
Sometimes they come looking for you. Three times this year RR's have contacted me. Since I am a certified locomotive engineer, they can get my name from a data base. Most recently NY Cross Harbor. They offered me very much less than I make now, and I declined. NS sent me a letter in April. I know their reputation for employee relations and declined. However, I did recieve a letter from Alaska, and considerd it greatly. But no. NYCTA needs me, and this is home. I feel the level of proffesionalism and training needs to be raised here. Maybe I can do something about it.
Alright wake up. Unless you clean house at the T.A. and get rid of 75% of the T/Os and C/Rs it will always be what it is with bad union contracts and deterioration of existing jobs. Oh, let's not forget our managers get rid of them too.
OK. Let's start with you, and your defeatest attitude. Loosers always loose. Winners never give up. You seem to have already given up.
Apathy is TWU's biggest problem. Just like low levels of proffesionalism affect mangement, because so many managers come from the ranks. That's good. But they bring their bad traits with them.
So sue me for being idealistic. But I love this little railroad, and I'd like to see it returned to it's former glory.
Is it me? It seems that whenever the system is at it's worst finanncial or mechanical (ussually both) state, that's when it's having it's finnest hour operationally.
The pre war days for the IRT and BMT. The 1970's for the TA. Those were the best times. Near bankruptcy or graffiti notwithstanding.
I wish you success in your efforts. There's room for improvement on both sides of the fence. Many managers need to act more professionally and get away from their "CYA" attitude. OTOH, I've noticed a lack of self discipline and work ethic on the part of newer employees. This is a reflection of society in general. Since there isn't any direct and constant supervision, operating jobs require integrity as well as self control. I hope your plans include these along with better technical training.
A few years ago you had to kill to get an engineer's job.
The Wall Street Journal pointed out that the huge revival of railroading added to a generally tight labor market has forced railroads to go scrounging for suitable help.
WSJ said that, even for the decent salaries, its hard, skilled work. You're away from your family too much, have enormous responsibility, sometimes hair-raising experiences (like running people over) and not the greatest of work conditions.
Still, if I were 30 years younger... When I was a kid, I wanted to be a boomer even more than I wanted to be a motorman. I even promised myself I wouldn't try to kill one of the callboys, no matter how early I was awakened. :-)
Amen to that! When I was downsized by my long-time employer five years ago I considered applying; NS was hiring in Raleigh for various entry-level positions. But my wife reminded me that, in light of my health history, I'd probably never be allowed to become an engineer if I even lived that long, and she's probably right, so I gave up the notion quickly.
Perhaps when I retire from my present career I can start again as a chef on Amtrak (I love to cook) - but what's the chance of them having a kosher dining car for me?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aside from working the 14th St-Canarsie, 14th St-Fulton and Myrtle-Chambers lines, did the Multis work any other lines? Did they ever serve the Myrtle Ave. El at any time?....or the Lexington El?
Carl M.
The Multis were 9'9" over the side sills (10' over the thresholds) so they couldn't operate on those lines which retained elevated dimensions. I believe that included lower Myrtle and Lexington until the end.
The Multis were tried on the Fulton Street Line at least as far as Sands Street. The first time they were tested on Fulton Street westbound they came to grief at Franklin Avenue, damaging some steps and about 50 feet of station platform.
Most of their non-revenue testing was on the Sea Beach and most of the in-service shakedowns were on the 14th St.-Canarsie Line.
I don't have any info at hand that they ever provided revenue service other than the lines you mentioned. I'd be kinda surprised if they never made a run or two (or three or four) on the Broadway Short Line or Jamaica Line.
The Multis did operate on the #7 Franklin Av Shuttle for a brief period;February 3 to 9,1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If the lower Myrtle used narrower el cars, and the upgraded section had wider subway cars, then weren't there dangerous gaps when the el cars stopped at the stations where the subway cars ran?
The BU (narrower) cars had wide threshholds that made up most of the gap. These threshholds overrode the station platforms on the stations that were built for the narrower cars.
Remember that the gate cars (but not the Qs or Cs) had a conductor at every entrance to caution people to "watch their step" and assist if needed. I don't ever remember anyone ever having a problem but this arrangement would probably be considered intolerable today.
I never saw the Fulton in operation or the Cs (which provided most service in later years), but apparently the Fulton platforms were all cut back for wide cars. The C types had built up moldings outisde at floor level which made up part of the difference.
The elevated gaps at subway stations even without big thresholds on the cars would have been 6 or 7 inches. Much worse was the gap at the south end of old DeKalb Ave. on the Brighton side. You literally had to jump across that gap.
Is my recollection correct that there was more of a pronounced step-up when boarding a gate car at an "el" platform as compared to boarding a Standard? It was as if the gate cars set higher than the Standards.
Karl B
Yes, this step-up enabled the threshold or sill to clear the elevated platforms, which were closer to the car body, yet also provide an acceptable gap at subway-width platforms.
Some of the gaps on the IRT lines between Intervale
Av. and E. Tremont Ave. are also quite large. I
almost saw a young child slip through one at E.
Tremont Ave.
My sister at a very young age nearly fell in the gap between the platform and car at the south end of the W 8th St station, lower level (F). If not for my father tightly holding her hand at the time ....
--Mark
The platforms at Freeman Street, E. 174th Street and East Tremont all have noticeable curves to them; hence the gaps. I noticed one conductor on the #5 line holler out "Watch the Gap" at East Tremont Avenue earlier this year - that station has about a 25-degree curve at its south end.
Wayne
front end of Seneca Av, Metropolitan bound is like that.
If you look at the pictures this website has of the BMT multi-sections, then you will find an old one of multi's at the 160th St. station on the Jamaica line, confirming that they did indeed run on this line at some time.
BTW, why isn't there one of these cars at the Transit Museum? They seem to have one of everything else.
None of the BMT's "oddballs" were kept (Multis, the Zephyr, the Bluebird, the Green Hornet). There was not a mindset of preservation when those trains were scrapped. The Transit Museum didn't exist yet and no one thought about preserving them, so off to the scrapper they went.
Keep in mind that the picture you saw of the multi's at 160th could have been a fan trip with appropriate signage...
The Green Hornet missed the Transit Museum by decades, most others by mere years. The Hornet had the misfortune to be made of aluminum, and when that was discovered, it went to the war effort.
The Zephyr, incidentally, was a very unofficial name, since "Zephyr" as applied to trains was a trademark of the CB&Q. Other names I've heard for it were "Super Duper" and "Silver Streak."
I belive that the applelation "Super Duper" train referref to the ten R-11s . They were also called the "Million Dollar" train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Upon closer inspection, it was a fantrip. However, there are several pictures of the Multi's running on the Brghton express which are not marked as fantrips.
Like I said, just because it isn't marked "fantrip" doesn't mean it isn't. If no one wrote "fantrip" on the slide, that bit of information tends to be missing from our photo captions. :)
True. These pics were dated 1961, about the same time that the cars were withdrawn from service. I hardly think the MTA would run cars at the end of their service life on an important line as the Brighton exp.
The Triplexes were still rolling along in 1961, and were holding down the fort on the Brighton along with the BMT standards and R-27s, which were just starting to make their presence known.
As for the el cars on Myrtle Ave. east of Broadway, they had extension plates at the door sills which filled the gap at stations along the elevated subway portion. On the unrebuilt el structure, these plates cleared the platforms by virtue of being installed high enough so that they passed above them.
So I take it that on the Multi's, the sills weren't high enough to clear the platforms. (The original question was whether the Multi's ran on the Myrtle and Lexington lines).
< So I take it that on the Multi's, the sills weren't high enough to clear the platforms. (The original question was whether the Multi's ran on the Myrtle and Lexington lines) >
If I'm understanding your comment, the answer is no, the Multi's couldn't run on lower Myrtle and Lex because the trackway/platform profile was sized for 8'9" L cars and the 9'9" multis were too wide.
IOW, the car bodies (not sills) would have hit the platforms. Like what would happen if you tried platforming a BMT-IND car at an IRT station.
I guess that's an excellent reason for the Multi's not running on lower Myrtle, etc. I always thought that there wasn't enough of to hold down the service in the late '50s as half the original order was scrapped around that time. They would have been ideal for the entire line.
Carl M.
The b*tch of the whole thing is that the TA was planning to order new lighter weight cars for the Myrtle and 3rd Avenue el in the Bronx--they even mentioned it in official writings--for delivery c.1971.
But the era was such that they realized they could get away with simply abandoning the lines. So they killed two birds with one stone.
That was the R-39 order which never materialized, was it not?
I believe that was the order number. I understand the cars actually got to the drawing stage.
Those extension plates sound like a very clever solution to a tricky problem. I regret not having seen them in service. I suppose the idea could even be used today, if the need arose, to create cars that could run on both A and B divisions. Except that the step up required to board would make the cars not ADA-compliant...
Still, when the R-33WF's are retired from the Flushing line, perhaps a few could be fitted with such extension plates and used for fantrips that would cover trackage of both divisions. They already have the dual tripcocks they would need for this.
I think that a good idea on the customize screen would be an extra line telling SubTalk what NOT to display, so I can help trim down on these long threads that I don't care for.
Usually a full IRT train consists of 10 cars except #7 line. What is the history of this arrangement for the 11-car #7 trains?
I searched this answer in www.nycsubway.org, but could not find it.
Thanks a lot!
Chaohwa
Extra capacity. The platforms are long enough for it. It's still shorter than a 10-car BMT-IND train, however (550' vs 600')
-Hank
All stations on the #7 were extended to hold 11 cars for the 1964-'65 World's Fair.
I spoke to one of my bridge partners today, who works for NYCT.
According to him, NYCT indeed wants to commemorate the 95th anniversary of the system by running a vintage train on the Times Square Shuttle that day. They apparently want to run a BMT Triplex if they can, by what he said...He didnt know if this meant the Triplex on display currently at the Transit Museum, or if this would be a different one.
He said the deciding factor would be if they could get the equipment into running shape by the anniversary.
Has anyone else heard anything about this, or about any other plans to commemorate the system's 95th Anniversary?
Well, the credibility of the story is in question right off the bat since there is no way they are going to get a BMT Triplex onto the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle. However, I think it's likely that they will commemorate the event using the Low-V cars on the shuttle like they did for the 90th.
It's good to see the TA marking the 90th and probably 95th anniversaries in an appropriate way. I'm really hoping for a big bash for the 100th anniversary...maybe a parade and/or fireworks display like for the NYC's 100th b-day...and maybe free rides for the whole day, or at least during the workday...9-5 -Nick
I think it would be a lot more appropriate to charge a nickel. Which can very easily be accomodated with MC. Maybe they can fit those "Autogate" readers with boxes that look like ticket choppers and let all the passengers use them.
I think they do have the technology to do such, it would be too much of a money loss to have 5 cent rides or free rides. The WMATA had free rides the day the green line opened in 1993 until 4PM (I'm not sure about AM Rush) but for Glenmont's opening on July 25, 1998, you could only get a free ride if you originated there, got a ticket from the station manager, and showed it to the station manager at your destanation. I think we'll see some historical cars on the mainlines but I don't think we'll see any special fares.
Yeah, how about R-1s on the "A" again? No, I mean, like to replace those R-40 somethings they use now. Sure make the commute more interesting...
If there were enough R-1/9s in running condition, that would be great. I can hear those bull and pinion gears bellowing away along CPW right now. It's a crying shame more of the R-10s weren't saved. I know one thing: if there is anything planned, I will be in the city during that week, and will definitely be on hand. My theme for Oct. 27 would have to change to "Ride the Lo-Vs", if they do in fact come out on the shuttle.
I always thought an equipment parade up the Culver Line in Brooklyn on the nearest weekend to the 100th anniversary would be a neat thing to do ....
--Mark
I think there is a general problem with putting older equipment out into general service: vandalism. Some of our inner-city youths may not appreciate older subway equipment the way railfans would. Some of these cars were designed in a time before destroying public property became a pastime. Some of the cars have open fans (asking for trouble) and easily ripped wicker seats.
[ I think there is a general problem with putting older equipment out
into general service: vandalism. Some of our inner-city youths may not
appreciate older subway equipment the way railfans would. ]
Unfortunately, it is often the railfans themselves which can be the cause of the most vandalism. Put a set of cars out in the open without tight supervision, and you're likely to see them return to the yard without numberplates, builder's plates, whistles, or just about anything else that can be removed and carried away.
I don't know if your common vandal is more or less inclined to vandalize a 75 year old Lo-V as opposed to everyday rolling stock.
{I don't know if your common vandal is more or less inclined to vandalize a 75 year old Lo-V as opposed to everyday rolling stock.}
True, but vandalism would be a more serious problem on an older subway car, which requires a lot of maintanence to begin with, and is probably irreplacable. If a vandal destroys a seat on an R62, then who cares? There are hundreds of them.
The taxpayers and the fare-paying public, who ultimately foot the bill, care a great deal! Steve K is right, though - a few irresponsible railfans are likely to do more damage than vandals would. It is a sad indictment of the railfan community, but there have been enough bad apples in the barrel over the years for many railroads to view us as enemies, not friends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An easy solution would be to have a very visible employee or volunteer aboard the car. Certainly doable if they use the Low-Vs, which are not TA property.
-Hank
So who does own those Low-V's?
The Railway Preservation Corporation, a not-for-profit organization devoted to the education, restoration and maintenance of these cars as well as some of the R1/9s and the AB Standards at Coney Island. They meet regularly Tuesday nights for restoration work.
--Mark
Your point is certainly valid. Hank has already responded with one solution - to have a visible NYC Transit employee on-board the train. A second idea is to have no one board the equipmnt but run it as a slow speed on the center track of the Culver line, where railfans can line the stations and take photographs. Issue a GO that replaces F train service between Church Ave and Stillwell Ave with shuttle buses on a Sunday, so the crush of railfans doesn't cause trouble with the road trains.
Closing the Culver Line for the parade isn't so far fetched as it may seem - remember that the Verrazano Bridge is completely closed to traffic on the day of the NYC Marathon. And the FDR Drive and Brooklyn Bridge were closed for the Bridge's 100th birthday. Since the 100th anniversary of anything only comes ONCE if at ALL, this would rate right up there with thoese other events.
(Of course, the 100th birthday of the Manhattan Bridge would probably go unnnoticed since parts of it have been closed for so long :)
--Mark
Triplex equipment cannot run on any IRT lines, especially the older GS shttle. It's more likely that an IRT-capable train, like the Low-V's that were used back in 1994, will be in service.
I had thought that the last I heard there were no Low-V's that could be made serviceable in time for the anniversary.
Where would they get the Low-V's from? The Transit Museum train, or are there others that could be used?
They have a train of Low-V's they use every year for fan trips. (Cars 5290/5292/5443/5483.) Something may have happened to it since last September (the last scheduled fan trip *that I know of*), but I haven't heard anything until now, so, who's been feeding you this misinformation?
Wherever they got the ones from in 1994. I think there are 3 working Low-V's that come from the New Lots yard and are used for fantrips.
You guys are going to love this one. I was taking out the trash on Saturday morning when my new neighbor across the way comes up to me and introduces himself. He's an accountant from someplace in Alabama and just got a job up here in the city. I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself when I found out that he thought he was going to be able to drive into Manhattan and find a parking space easily, not to mention affordably. I explained to him that the LIRR platform for Floral Park was less than two blocks away, and that there wouldn't be any need to change trains. It's a straight shot into Penn Station and since I think he told me he works someplace in midtown, it lets him out practically at his office. The simplicity of all of this must have been too much for him, because I stood there over half an hour trying to lay it all out so my five year old grandson could understand it if he had to. I could understand him being confused if he had to change a train someplace, but if he's really as dense as he came across to me as being; I really feel sorry for the company that hired him. Talk to you guys later. Salvo.
[I was taking out the trash on Saturday morning when my new neighbor across the way comes up to me and introduces himself. He's an accountant from someplace in Alabama and just got a job up here
in the city. I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself when I found out that he thought he was going to be able to drive into Manhattan and find a parking space easily, not to mention affordably. I explained to him that the LIRR platform for Floral Park was less than two blocks away, and that there wouldn't be any need to change trains. It's a straight shot into Penn Station and since I think he told me he works someplace in midtown, it lets him out practically at his office. The simplicity of all of this must have been too much for him, because I stood there over half an hour trying to lay it all out so my five
year old grandson could understand it if he had to.]
Your neighbor's confusion does not surprise me. Assuming he's under 45 or 50 years of age, from a middle-class background, and has lived in Alabama all his life, he probably has little or no experience with using transit. He's probably never been on a bus except for school buses and airport rental car shuttles, or on a train except for the Disney World monorail. The idea of getting on an LIRR train probably is totally bewildering to him - and let's not even think about the subway. Hopefully, he'll soon learn his way around transit.
I spoke with him last night when he came home from work. He said it was scary until he got to Penn Station and got his bearings about where he was at. I told him to stay away from the subway until he absolutely had to use it, or until he felt adventurous enough to learn. I think he's going to be fine. When I was working in Manhattan back in the seventies and eighties, I would have killed for a commute as simple as his. Later, Salvo.
I'm glad to hear that your neighbor managed to navigate the LIRR and survive :-) Of course, if he had tried driving into Manhattan, and paying for parking, he undoubtedly would have hightailed it back to Alabama, new job or not!
Something like this tells a lot about people with the office-park mentality, who are used to endless fields of asphalt around a single story office complex. Manhattan (The Chicago Loop, Downtown Boston or Center City Philly) is a different world A place where people will put out what would be a year's salary for most of us just to have THEIR parking space, and then sit in gridlock for hours coming and going. But as much as we gripe about the LIRR or NYCT and other systems on this site, they make these cities work - without them they would STRANGLE!
This AM the bi-level pulled into Jamaica with FL-9 300 (Kevin Blum) in
front and FL-9 301 (Mike O'Connor) nowhere to be found. The train
pulled into Track 4 and terminated. I was on the train from Far Rock
which had a slow approach into Jamaica and wound up about 10 minutes
late because of missing Mike. Another morning on the LIRR...
Kevin Blum? Mike O'Connor?
[ Kevin Blum? Mike O'Connor? ]
They are names given to locomotives on the LIRR. In particular, those names are applied to two of the three FL9AC dual mode locomotives still being used for port-jeffercon -> Penn Sta through service.
But who were Kevin Blum and Mike O'Connor?
A better question is whatever happened to Jason R. DeCeasere? He seems to have vanished..
-Hank
Whenever I go through the Lexingotn Avenue Station on the E and F during the PM Rush Hour there is a lady with a megaphone leaning against the rail next to the Queens-bound tracks and men at every door location with flashlights holding them up in the direction of the conductor. When did the MTA start employing people to use the megaphone in the station (and at the such a high volume! I can hear every word clearly from INSIDE the R-32 E trains) and when the flashlight is on, what does that mean? That the conductor can close the doors or has to keep them open?
On Friday afternoon, there was a Platform Conductor on the uptown side of the Fulton Street IRT station with a battery-powered mic/amplifier. Between trains, he announced: "Passengers are reminded to stand back from the platform for their own safety." When a train was approaching, he announced the route number and destination. [
Is this some way of helping blind people?]
No, although it is a good secondary result. The people with the megaphones and portable mics are trying to get you to LISTEN. In general, it doesn't seem to work - apparantly most NYers are selectively deaf and cannot hear anything told to them in the subways, no matter where they stand in relation to the person talking.
Back in April, I spent two days at 51/Lex on the N.B. 6 platform. Standing in the doorway, waving the flashlight up and down, telling people to stand back from the closing doors, it was amazing how many people I hit in the head as they ran under my swinging arm.
There are some at 42-GC also..........
They are sent to any point on the subway that is crowded for any reason. They had a lady with a megaphone at 77th Street on the IRT, normally a not very crowded station, on the day of the Puerto Rican Parade (she wasn't doing much to ease the crowd except for opening the service exit. The 6 train I was on was packed and some guy forced the door open at 68th (I think) when his shirt got stuck in the door and didn't get out of the doorway at 77th until he was yelled at for a few seconds.
The extra platform conductors and flashlight use at Lexington Ave & 53rd ST has been there for a quite a while. When the doors are open, the platform conductor at the head of the train moves his flashlight side to side to tell the train conductor to keep the doors open. When the platform conductor sees that the train has just about loaded its passengers, he moves the flashlight up and down to tell the train conductor to close the doors. It's easier for the train conductor to see the flashlight than judge the situation for himself because of the passenger congestion in that station, especially at the front of the downtown trains during the evening rush. It also reduced dwell time.
--Mark
This morning, while on my regular trip in on LIRR #509, I saw a consist of bilevels and two 5xx series DM30AC's. It was 508, 8 cars, and then 506. The train was heading eastbound and was just east of Hall, and I was heading westbound.
Anyone know if this was an in-service train? I'm guessing it was, because it was rather close to rush hour for testing..
In an earlier thread with the same title, we talked about the possibility of a train being stuck in an inaccessible location (i.e. under a River) when traction power was unavailable.
I thought that the most likely option would be to have a couple of diesels go down there and fetch the train.. Someone seemed to reply that that was unlikely. How else would you get the people out of the tunnel, though?
It's unlikely because of the logistics. The diesels would likely have to leap over stalled trains to get to the one trapped in a tunnel.
[ It's unlikely because of the logistics. The diesels would likely have
to leap over stalled trains to get to the one trapped in a tunnel. ]
Don't most of the lines have crossovers relatively close to the tunnels? Of course, there would be stalled trains on both tracks, though..
It's interesting that LIRR/AMT keeps the harold protect on hand for east river tube contingencies, but NYCT doesn't seem to have a good plan for loss of power..
(For those not familiar, the harold protect is a set of switcher locomotives complete with crew, kept near harold tower, very close to the queens side of the LIRR/AMT east river tubes. During rush hours, they are always ready to go, with a waiting crew, to rescue a stalled train.)
Yes but the LIRR has one tunnel to protect where-as the TA has XX. Would you propose parking a diesel at one end of each just in case.
Could the crossovers be operated without power?
if all else fails and danger to life existed evucation and walk to emergency exits from under river and all tunnels. If a rescue train of passnger equipment couldn't be dispatched due to power off and conditions warranted immediate evac hell yes people would have to walk.. if all else fails
In a scenario where power were extinguished and say smoke or fire existed evacuation would be in the opposite of the incident even if away from exit or station.
if I may add to my own message yes the Gucci shoes and handbag may be soiled but HEY life will continue.... and yes the Bloomingdales or Macy's parcels will have to stay with the train since they'd be a bitch to get up those narrow dirty emergency exits...
[ if I may add to my own message yes the Gucci shoes and handbag may be
soiled but HEY life will continue.... and yes the Bloomingdales or
Macy's parcels will have to stay with the train since they'd be a
bitch to get up those narrow dirty emergency exits... ]
Speaking of narrow and dirty emergency exits, there was a little piece on (I think) NBC (dateline?) called "descent of a woman", about a recovering addict who used to live in a subway emergency exit stairway. Anyone else see this?
I think the exit in question was in soho on the F line..
Wonder how long it would take to walk from the middle of the 7 train (Steinway) tunnel, or the N train tunnels under the East River (I'm talking both here).
Anybody have a guess on how long it would take to walk from the middle of each East River tunnel? I think Montague street is the longest one.
Last week's heat wave caused Washington Heights to loose power.
The A train terminated at 145th Street or 168th Street. Why did they
reroute the B from Coney Island via the Montague Street Tunnel and
Broadway Express to 57th Street-7th Avenue on the N and R lines?
Could they have extended the rerouted B to Queensborough Plaza or
Ditmars Blvd on the N Line? I found out that in 1961, on Saturdays,
there were 3 services running to/from Astoria: Q, QB and T. Why don't
they just extend the B to Bedford Park Blvd like during the rush
hours and run some D trains express in the peak direction?
James Li
I suspect you are wrong about 1961. If memory serves me, the Q only ran at the same time as the QT. Once the QT switched to become the QB, the Q no longer ran. Thus, only 2 services ran to Astoria at any one time, not 3.
I have the 1961 map at home, and it showed that on Saturdays 6am to
7apm, there were 3 services to/from Astoria. The Brighton Express Q,
which ran from Astoria to Coney Island, making local stops on Broad-
way in Manhattan, then switching over to the Manhattan Bridge after
Prince Street. It ran Express from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach.
The Brighton Local QB via Manhattan Bridge, which ran from Astoria
to Coney Island, making local stops in Manhattan, switching to the
Manhattan Bridge after Prince Street, then ran local on the Brighton
Line all the way to Coney Island. There was also the West End Express
T via Manhattan Bridge. It ran from Astoria to Coney Island, making
express stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn, but stopped at DeKalb Avenue.
James Li
How did the Broadway Line services operated in 1948? Did the
West End and Sea Beach Expresses skip DeKalb Avenue during the rush
hours? When did the Brighton Express operate and when did the Brigh-
ton Local terminate at 57th Street-7th Avenue and Queensborough Plaza?
James S. Li
recently, on Transit Transit news on Channel 25, I saw the
project on the Williamsburg Bridge. Why did they demolish the entire
elevated structure over the bridge to rebuild it? It will take a very
long time to rebuild like that. Is the Marcy Avenue station like a
horseshoe shaped at the time of the reconstruction?
James S. Li
I can comment on Marcy Avenue:
The island platform is temporary and is used to facillitate unloading. A temporary booth has also been set up on the Manhattan end of the Manhattan bound platform. The island platform connects to the Manhattan Bound Platform at the manhattan side of the island platform which will be removed when repairs are finished.
before anyone asks: Essex Street has a walkway from the center track over the usual Williamsburg bound track to the trolley terminal which is temporarily reopen with a temporary booth and walkway to the sahuttle bus. this too will be removed when the work is concluded.
It seems to me this would be the time to take photographs of the old trolley terminal at Essex Street and post on the this site.
I second that notion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What's all this I hear about lead contamination in regards to the construction going on. One of you guys out there is bound to know. Thanks. Salvo.
Sorry Dave. There's nothing there except piles of dust and some rusting track gear. I took a look when I had an M job with a put-in at the Canal St. backtrack in the spring.
Actually, that is just an old entrance to the subway station. There is no access to the trolley terminal. In fact, you can see where the stairways were covered over on the platform and in the fare control area for the tunnel under the B'klyn-bound track. The trolley terminal used to encompass the entire area, and the entrance to the terminal can be seen closer to the south/west end of the station.
-Hank
The steel work on the bridge was removed because is was rusting from lack of maintenance and was no longer structurally sound. The work is ahwad of schedule because of good planning by the contractor.
I think the reason that the work is ahead of schedule has more to do with that big fat bonus they will get finishing ahead of schedule.
They romved EVERYTHING. Then entire track suport structure from Essex St. to Marcy Ave. They pre-poured new supports and had all the structural support parts ready to go before they shut down the bridge. The then proceeded to demolish the structure, and install the new steelwork atop the concrete pillars. On the bridge, they removed all the steelwork above the main crossbeams (which run crossways from cable to cable) and put in new. They had been working on the project 24/7 until recently, when they discovered that they were way ahead of schedule. The bridge will reoppen on-time, or early.
-Hank
I heard they are three weeks behind because of a problem with one of the new beams.
Yesterday, the E and F were rerouted due to track work in the
53rd Street Tunnel, but why did they shorten the R to a Shuttle from
36th Street to 95th Street in Brooklyn, when the E was rerouted via
the R line to Whitehall Street? Why was the northbound F train normal?
What trains made local stops at 23rd Street and 14th Street on 6th
Avenue in Manhattan?
James S. Li
You proabably had to take the express to W4 St and transfer to the uptown local.
The E basically replaced the R from Continental ave to Whitehall. The Broadway line probably couldn't handle three different services.All passengers had to do was to transfer to the N for service to Brooklyn and get the R at 59st for service to 95st
Also to reduce congestion in Queens.
The question is, why have the E on Broadway at all? just send the R all the way through. They're making it more complicated and inconvenient this way.
What about E line passengers between Jamaica center and Jamaica Van Wyck?
Just extend the R. That's more simple than what they're doing.
The R stops running in Queens a little past midnight.
I think what he is trying to say is why dont they send the R via its normal route and have the E run as a shuttle? It could run as a shuttle from Union Tpke to Jamaica Ctr? This would probably lead to other headches in Manhattan........
You could run the R out to Jamacia Center. I think the E still runs on Bway is so you can get express service in Queens and so people aren't totaly confused east of 71 Ave. It seems to make plenty of sense to me.
But isn't it all local service in Queens during this reroute?
All E and F trains operated local in Queens to/from their Jamaica
Terminals during this track work. The E ran on the R line from Queens
Plaza to Whitehall Street, and the F ran on the G line between Queens
Plaza and Bergen Street in the southbound direction.
James Li
There was another GO affecting service in the Montague St. tubes, wasn't there?
-Hank
Can anyone tell me the condition of the Gibbs Hi-V car at the Seashore Trolley Museum? What ever happened to the restoration project to remove the center doors. This car should be displayed in New York City for the 100th Anniversary.
Does this car operate?
3352 had its center doors removed many years ago (more than 12, I know, since that's when I first set eyes on the car!). I have operated it over our main line about a dozen times, though it has not gone more than a few hundred yards in about four years. There is a bad leak in one of the brake stands, so moving it under power for anything more than a "trolley parade" is not good.
The outside is in pretty decent shape, but the inside is not. There are holes in the floor, and seats and other items are piled up throughout.
I agree it would be interesting to talk about having it in NYC for the 100th. Do you think the NYCTA would be willing to pay for moving it (plus insurance, restoration as required, etc.)?
Well, they have car "G" on loan, under similar arrangements. Of course, it all depends on what you have in mind when you say "restoration as required".
The cost of a professional restoration on a car like that would probably be close to a million bucks.
Not to mention the removal of the fibrous white substance liberally employed in it's construction.
>Not to mention the removal of the fibrous white substance liberally
>employed in it's construction.
Oh, you mean the same white fiber stuff that's in the ceilings of the M-1s supposedly?
[ Oh, you mean the same white fiber stuff that's in the ceilings of the
M-1s supposedly? ]
Really? Is that reliable information, or just a rumour? I'm surprised that they'd use that in the 70's, and what is in the roof that would need asbestos?
Some engineer on the LIRR claimed it. Then again, I don't see where you'd need it up there either. I don't think it's true, though it's possible...
And why the proposed D-Type / Gate Car Nostalgia Trip was canned last year ....
--Mark
< I agree it would be interesting to talk about having it in NYC for the 100th. Do you think the NYCTA would be willing to pay for moving it (plus insurance, restoration as required, etc.)? >
Knowing NYC politics, I think it depends entirely on who is Mayor and how the economy is. If times are prosperous and the Mayor is like Jimmy Walker, it should be easy. If the City's in a new crunch and the Mayor is like LaGuardia, fugeddaboutit!
I'd be very happy to see a 3 car train of Hi-Voltage cars
(let's see if you can name them :) paraded through the IRT
on Oct 27 2004. That's only a few years from now and all of
the cars require a lot of time and money to be presentable
and suitable for that kind of service.
[ I'd be very happy to see a 3 car train of Hi-Voltage cars
(let's see if you can name them :) ]
Let's see -- I dunno what you have in mind, but I think it would be nice to see a Gibbs car, a Deck Roof, and a particular private car..
Right. If this kind of thing is to happen, then it's time for the representatives of Seashore and Shore Line to talk to NYCT now!
I gotta tell you, I don't know if NYCT would be interested in 3 High Voltage Cars. That's a lot of $$$ for restoration.
THE PRIVATE SUBWAY CAR by itself - Well that's a different story....
Once Car G comes home, then the private subway car can take G's spot at the NYTM.
It's a nice fantasy to have the Hi-Vs rolling down the line. If that were possible - I would expect that no one, but Museum Staff members would be allowed in the private car as a means for protecting her.
I wonder what the possibility would be like if we could have two Hi-Vs (3352 and 3662) rolling down the line with two Lo-Vs? Exactly what would have to be done to make it plausible? Can you isolate the Hi-Vs/Lo-Vs from each other to make operations possible?
Just to add to something that I said, I wanted to know if a combined Hi-V/Lo-V fantrip could be run......
Stef,
Haven't you already seen a train made up from a combination of Hi-V and Lo-V cars? I'm pretty sure you've been around when we've done it, although you weren't around for "New York In June" this year.
Anyways, the braking systems on the two types of cars are roughly compatible. A 4 car Hi-Hi-Lo-Lo train would be possible, with the Hi-V's MU'ed and the Lo-V's Mu'ed, and fully operational trainline braking. Of course, seeing this happening is only slightly more likely than seeing a train of R68's on the 2nd avenue subway.
For that matter, for what it would cost to get the two Hi-V cars down to NYCT property and restored properly for a "celebration", just a little more could build a device to transition from Hi-V to Lo-V trainline controls, so you could MU the whole train, electric brakes and all.
I know it's been done, but I've never seen it. Just because you run them down a mile and a half Museum Line doesn't mean that it's necessarily feasible for the NYC subway system. I never considered a transition device for Lo-V/Hi-V operation. If that were the case, I'd say to Jeff H. to study it's feasibility and try it on the Museum Line only if there were enough juice to squeeze out of the overhead.
Anyway, isn't the 3662 and 5466 lashup done with one car pulling the other dead in each direction? Fully MU'ed? I think not, with the exception of trainline brakes. I have seen the Lo-V/R9 lashup, and it's pretty much the same way. Go to Short Beach and pull the R9's pole down, and put up the Lo-V's pole and off they go in the opposite direction with only train brakes in operation.
It's just a curious thing, since unfortunately we don't seem to have any other surviving Hi-Vs out there (forget the Private Subway Car). A two car Hi-V train wouldn't cut it for the railfans, because chances are we'd be packed in like sardines in a can!!!!!
What I had in mind was that the cars could be isolated from each other that two cars would pull in each direction at any given time since they are electrically incompatible.
Then again, putting a certain private subway car at the front of a consist would certainly turn heads, wouldn't it?
-Stef
[ Just because you run
them down a mile and a half Museum Line doesn't mean that it's
necessarily feasible for the NYC subway system. ]
The braking systems don't care if the cars are going down the branford mainline or lexington avenue. The fact is that they do work together, with performance comparable to a set of two Lo-V's or two Hi-V's, minus the electric brake. Service braking and Emergency both work.
[ I never considered a
transition device for Lo-V/Hi-V operation. If that were the case, I'd say to Jeff H. to study it's feasibility and try it on the Museum Line
only if there were enough juice to squeeze out of the overhead. ]
Two problems here. First, we would need to define "feasability". It _can_ be done, just as almost anything can be done, but the question is one of cost (combination of money and time). It's not quite as simple as a set of relays that would convert hi-voltage signals to low-voltage ones, because the controllers don't work the same way. Of course, since the whole idea of a mixed-voltage train is not historically accurate, you could just put a low-voltage PC control system under the hi-voltage cars, and then MU operation is easy.
When we make the Hi-V/Lo-V train at Branford, we generally do it as you stated, "Air and Iron", having the lead car pull in each direction. A simple addition that would be nice to add to that scenario would be a high-voltage jumper for lights and fans. If one did something like this in third-rail territory, you would have power to all the cars, though.
[ What I had in mind was that the cars could be isolated from each other
that two cars would pull in each direction at any given time since
they are electrically incompatible. ]
Right -- that's what I thought you meant. When doing so, though, you'd want to have trainline braking, which would be possible because the systems are compatible.
Of course, I wouldn't hold my breath to see any of this happen, because it would cost a fortune.
The High V's, or at least the one I saw at Seashore, also don't have automatic acelleration like the Low V's and everything else does. One has to notch the controller manually. BTW - it's a way cool looking controller, almost as cool as the MP-54 ones were. Anyway, as far as electric braking features - didn't they all use pretty much the same AMUE stuff until SMEE came around?
Anyway, I'd love to see that Hi V run again....
[ The High V's, or at least the one I saw at Seashore, also don't have
automatic acelleration like the Low V's and everything else does. One
has to notch the controller manually. BTW - it's a way cool looking
controller, almost as cool as the MP-54 ones were. Anyway, as far as electric braking features - didn't they all use pretty much the same
AMUE stuff until SMEE came around? ]
Yup, the Hi-V's have to be notched up manually. The acceleration rate is controlled by a "clockworks" mechanism in the master controller, which maintains the maximum notch-up speed. If you crank the handle faster, you just end up putting tension on a spring until the cam catches up. In a "linear" analogy, imagine pulling a block across a plane by a spring, where the block is artificially limited in speed. If you pull the block faster, you just stretch the spring, until the block catches up to you.
The brakes on the Hi-V are AMRE. They are similar to AMUE, and compatible from air controls. The AMRE system on the Hi-v's use high-voltage controls, and therefore is not directly compatible with AMUE.
Let's see, a few scattered academic thoughts on mixing HiV and LoV.
Running a 4 or 5 car train of AMUE/AMRE on air only, no electric
brake, not fun. The UE universal valve and the R triple valve
have different quick-acting characteristics, and the ME-21 valve
used on the Hi-V does not have an equalizing portion. You'd have
to be a train air grandmaster to handle that train smoothly, not
to mention not going too fast because service braking will be very
long. Of course emergency will work fine.....
The easiest MU fix is to leave the Hi-V cars as unpowered control
trailers, and use their trainlines at low-voltage, much like we
used to do with "G" and 1227 at Branford.
A full-blow Hi-Lo transition box could be constructed with a bunch
of relays. You'd have to partition the train into a high voltage
and a low voltage half. Wire it so first point on the Hi-V causes
switching on the Lo-V side, second point and higher gets you series,
and transition gets you multiple. Then you hope that the accel
rates match up well enough that you don't get a lot of bucking.
Going the other way is a lot worse because the Hi-V's accelerating
relay in the the controller stand. You could run a wire back
into the Lo-V's PC-10 group and pick up the switched side of the
accel relay and use that to run up the Hi-V sequence. Ouch.
Complicated. I suppose I could build one for kicks.
Trainlining AMRE and AMUE electrically is similar, but not nearly
as complicated.
What a flurry of responses!!! Thanks for clearing that up Jeff. Sounds like the Hi-Vs are better left as unpowered control trailers....
Mr. Train Conrol, if you know Bill Gates, see if he's willing to contribute to the Hi-V/Mineola Fund, as it's time to represent history with the very best (being that NYCT's birthday is right around the corner!).
Steve K, thank you for your explanation. Anything's possible, I suppose if certain people are willing to make things happen. Yet the idea intrigues me, what if a Hi-V could run on the legendary IRT?
-Stef
So *thats* what that huge spring in there does!!! So - basically, one can put the controller in full parallel without blowing anything up?
Yeah, but since the current limit relay is in the controller,
if you have a "dead motor" at the head end, the automatic
acceleration won't work.
It's amazing since Boston had 'daisy-chain' automatic accelleration from 1901 and Chicago had Sprague's version in the 1890s, why the IRT went with this system. Any thoughts?
BTW Phil Morse is the person at Seashore who has a knack for making things like this happen! Jim Tebbetts - sponsor of the Gibbs Car - would also have to be involved.
I've never heard the term "daisy-chain automatic acceleration"
please explain what that was and what Boston cars it was used on.
Sprague's 1897 system was automatic accel and low-voltage.
I suspect, but can not document historically, that GE's
introduction of Type M as a high-voltage, manual system was
a market counter-reaction to finicky problems with the
Sprague system. In New York, the BRT went with Sprague's system
and then the Westinghouse clone of it (with air, of course)
and never used Hi-V style controls. The IRT probably picked
GE Type M because that was what they started using on the Manhattan
Division (the els) in 1901.
The High V's, or at least the one I saw at Seashore, also don't have automatic acelleration like the Low V's and everything else does. One has to notch the controller manually. BTW - it's a way cool looking controller, almost as cool as the MP-54 ones were. Anyway, as far as electric braking features - didn't they all use pretty much the same AMUE stuff until SMEE came around?
Anyway, I'd love to see that Hi V run again....
They use GE's "M" control, right?
Maybe Bill Gates with his $90 billion dollars would donate enough money to restore the Gibbs Hi-V and Mineola Car (private subway car you speak of)?
Maybe the Webmaster, David Pirmann, can master a website to get Bill Gate's attention and get some of his money. I'm sure he can donate a couple of million bucks. It would be tax deductible and we could allow him to operate the cars on the inauguration ride. Maybe Bill is a train buff.
[ Maybe Bill Gates with his $90 billion dollars would donate enough
money to restore the Gibbs Hi-V and Mineola Car (private subway car
you speak of)? ]
Shudder. I can just see it now. The mineola sprinting up the lex. I'm standing on the platform at Astor place, as it approaches. Beautifully restored. It passed by. Then, on the back, I see this big "Designed for Microsoft Windows" sticker with the four pastel-color logo plastered across the back of the car.
I won't even go into the repercussions of the blue screen of death.
Wait a second.........microslop operating system and
high-voltage. This won't end well.
Gates did charter a private train last year though for his vacation ... but that was so he could get away from everyone except his lackeys, not so he could party with a city full:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the door (window?) closing sound would also have to be changed to that annoying intel inside tune they play for on *every* computer ad on tv/radio!
Hey, Apple is doing better this year - maybe Jobs likes trains? Ok, granted, iHi Vs in blueberry, orange, cherry, grape, and whatever isn't much better.
Oh yeah, but then, everytime the t/o took power, the roll sign would have to display a smiling subway car.
(For the non Mac crowd - everytime you boot a Mac, it displays a smiling computer on the screen for a few secs once it's found the system software. If it can't find the OS, it displays a disk with a ? mark on it. If something is REALLY wrong, it disp;ays a sad mac on a black screen, and plays the chimes of death)
New in the Around the World Section:
Bob Wright has done a series of pages on SEPTA's Regional rail. For those lines not covered, Peggy will be doing those.(R7 Trenton, R3 West Trenton and the two Chestnut Hill services.) Also in the works:BART (Sent by a contributor- Dave will have this up soon) and a station by station for the Newark Subway to be done by Peggy.
In Atlanta, Automatic Train Operation reins supreme in my book. The trains operate smoothly and the Flare-Out at the final stop is great. Flare-Out is when the brakes get released below 3 mph and then get reapplied to eliminate the sudden jerk at the final stop. When the trains are operated in MCS, Manual Cab Signal, mode then the Train Operator controls the train with cab signaling with over speed protection enforced. The ride is very jerky and the final stop in the platform is always a full service brake application performed by the deadman feature.
I wonder if you New York Subway railfans would enjoy this type of MCS ride on your system?
BTW, for those who are interested, I design the signal and train control systems that prevent train operators from getting into accidents. There is no contest between Operations Personnel and Engineers in this business.
I invite you to visit Atlanta and ride MARTA on a rainy day.
One factor complicating automatic control in NYC is the interconnection of lines- east side west side; sixth avenue, 8th avenue; BMT, IND, IRT. For instance: You have a train on the 7 Cornoa Flushing Line- it share trackas with the BMT at Queensboro Plaza. Therefore in theory the computer COULD send a BMT car down the IRT and cause injury. The computer COULD send an eastside train down the West side. The very feature that makes NYC unique--the great redudancy in capacity alternatives complicates ATC. We are not standing still-- NYCT does plan on buying new cars, etc to allow ATC but it takes time and money. MARTA is a new system with separate North South and East West Lines with only one connection between the two . NYCT's new rail control center now going up on West 53rd in Manhattan is being designed to allow ATC.The new R143 cars will have ATC capability when the signals are installed on the L line. Patience, my friend! a 1904 system takes time to update--especially with the deferred maintenance when NYC almost went broke. I was in Atlanta visiting when the East West line was in the test stage-- a train (one train) ran from Avondale to Georgia State (and the feeder bus lines with free bus transfer was not yet in place and you asked the bus driver for a rail transfer or from rail to bus you got a transfer by pressing ther button on the turnstile when you enter unless you paid with a Trans Card.) I was also there in the fall when the entire line was open along with the North line to Brookhaven. I saw in the paper where a train operator was running behind schedule and MARTA had to run buses to move the passengers-- the computer shut down when the operator requested wrong rail to facillitate turn around. MARTA is a nice system- I agree and have ridden the system many times and will continue to do so But I can not directly compare a stretch limo to a VW Beetle or a 1999 model to a model T.
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of NYCT, MTA , or MARTA
I've dealt with Engineers,including some signal types. As a group,I find that their faith in technology tends to isolate them from practicality.
While the time has certainly come for improvement over the wayside signal/tripper system,I question the need for full ATO on U.S. transit systems.For a number of reasons,I doubt that any property plans to run crewless trains in our lifetime.(See the thread on stuck trains.)
Full automation tends to instill a false sense of security in those humans still involved;on those rare occasions when it does fail,personnel often react with disbelief,resulting in an increase in reaction time.IIRC,Washington Metro was cited for over reliance on the ATO system in a 1996 incident that resulted in collision and the death of a Train Operator.
You yourself remarked on the poor train handling skills of MARTA operators. IMHO,it's due to lack of opportunity to develop and maintain these skills in the manual mode.
In view of the above,would not an interactive computer supervised system such as TVM-430 (used on the Chunnel and TGV)be more appropriate?
even in PATCO operation according to a book i've been reading though ATO is the norm, operators make one trip manually to maintain operating skills. IN the event that an ATO system experiences a lengthy breakdown how safe would the system be if the operators never operated? very unsafe in my opinion. I'm wondering what delusion people have that total automation will make there ride even better/faster/cheaper? Cost efficient maybe in say 30/40/50 years not in the next say 5-10 years..
say in New York, do you think a train with no crew what so ever operates wth the characters that ride trains today do you think this puppy wil ever get off the ground? highly unlikely...
picture this scene on a train with no operating crew on board at a station stop and doors open people holding doors too and a nice polite message"Please do not hold the doors! release the doors so the train is not delayed and inconvenience your fellow riders"
people still holding doors and the message just plays on and a malfunction occurs so that the train cannot close its doors. how safe would it be to override from a remote location to get that train moving again....even with all the bells and whistles of all the new fangled stuff to arrive you still need a living breathing employee on board to operate a train.
On PATCO, where do the commands for ATO originate? In boxes on the
tracks, in the train's computer (ie, 5th stop to 6th stop, accel
for 10 secs or until non-green signal) or elsewhere?
The speed commands on PATCO are transmitted to the train via the running rails. They come from those boxes you refer to and are called impedance bonds. Actually, they are developed by code transmitters and follower relays in the wayside equipment rooms and houses.
If trains cannot be operated smoothly by a motorman or train operator then ATO operation is appropriate with a train operator. Driveless train are in service in other places around the world like Paris.
I make it my business to operate in a safe and comfortable fashion. I could care less about operation in Paris Istabul London or elsewhere. As for other US cities San Franciso's BART at its introduction has had its problems at the start and I believe Washington DC on METRO had a fatality to a train operator. Not to mention SF MUNI had a major interuption to service when its ATO went online for its light rail customers. So New York City riders should also have to endure the same inconvenience.. history i'm sure would repeat itself in here..
If the trip arm breaks or the show beam not adjusted then the signal system on NYCT is worthless. Single break line circuits!!!!
And if the ATO misreads a speed command as in the BART Fremont flyer incident then that system,too,is worthless.
What does shoe beam adjustment have to do with signal operation???
Well, you can argue that things should be one way or another, or you can see if the answer is somewhere in the middle.
I think few people advocate crewless trains; it would be enormously difficult in NY and I cannot imagine it anytime in the next 50 years. However, ATO is commonly very smooth, and can also be more energy efficient, I believe. WMATA thinks it also saves brakes...
It seems like PATCO has a good approach. Keep the operators handy at operating trains. On the NY system, with its complexity, an additional level would be needed: Make control center people and tower operators, etc., practice operating the system without the computers calling the shots.
SF has a very busy trunk line and had a disaster trying to bring it all on line at once. This was complicated, actually, because the automatic portion of the system is not self contained - trains come into the system from non automated lines. This was all compounded by BAD management. NYCTA plans to bring in ATO on one almost isolated and not terribly busy line. I doubt they will be stupid enough to bring it on line while, for instance, the Williamsburgh bridge is closed.
WMATA's overreliance on their ATO cost an operator his life. Hopefully, this lesson will not be lost. But this does not mean that ATO is not safe. On paper, at least, it should have prevented many of the accidents that have occurred in NYCTA over the past few years.
WMATA seems more concerned about saving brake shoe pads it seems...
Both are replaceable. Besides, it seems to me that a number of operators have been killed over the years without any help from ATO. If ATO is unsafe because one operator was killed, doesn't that mean that no ATO is also unsafe because operators have been killed? It follows that the only safe subway is one with neither ATO nor operators.
OK! OK! It seems that most people are not informed on ATO. First of all it stands for Automatic Train Operation. It performs the functions of the train operators such as train acceleration, speed regulation and station stopping. Most of these functions are non-vital in nature. Here's the big one is called ATP. It stands for Automatic Train Protection and is 100% failsafe. It is the cab signal with overspeed protection system. It employes a Frequency Response Governor (FR Governor) using filters and check oscillators to compare the speed command to the actional train speed. If the train goes into overspeed then the Underspeed Relay drops (USR) causing a full service brake application if the train operator or ATO system does not put the train into full service braking within 3 to 5 seconds. Furthermore, systems like MARTA and others use a brake assurance system using a pendalum brake assurance unit (BAU) which checks for 1/2 the full service brake rate. If it does not detect at least that rate then the train goes in emergency braking after 3 to 5 seconds.
The block design is layed out based on 1/2 full service brake rate with maximum human and machine reaction time and runaway speed. On NYCT the brake distance is designed based on 135% braking distance. This is not as good as 1/2 full service rate. On WMATA and MARTA safe braking is tested for every track circuit and speed command with an actual train under the WORST CASE conditions. The train is calibrated for this with a special test set and accelerometers. Did you ever wonder why system like WMATA and MARTA, at the airport, have the track extended beyond the terminal station. It is put there for run off only in case a train blows the automatic station stop. The train will not get into an accident. NYCT does not do this.
With all this in mind, ATO operation is totally failsafe and better than an operator. WMATA doesn't use brake assurance.
I've been in the business of design of train control and signaling for 28 years and advice you to examine the system employed before a negative is picture is painted.
..."track extended beyond the terminal station.It is put there for runoff in case a train blows the automatic station stop.The train will not get into an accident."
Only by virtue of the fact that several hundred feet of extra track is provided for that possibility. It would appear that those designers don't have your unwavering faith :)
Look, you must understand the technical aspect of cab signaling. First of all, a speed command, in the case of MARTA being either 15 or 25mph, must be transmitted to the train during the final stop in the station. The train can be operated in either ATO or Manual Cab Signal (MCS) modes into the station. In order to grant this speed command, there must safe braking distance beyond the station in order for it work safely. There is no other way. Any system using an end of track configuration into the platform without cab signal is not as safe and a runoff into the bumper can occur. Even on NYCT were one block GT is used in the station platform then is not totally failsafe. An operator can rap the controller around once the GT is satisfied at the last signal and run into the bumper post. Cab Signal protects again this action.
As designs we have total faith in the design because we must have the safe braking distance. Doing anything else is reckless.
For anyone to say that a system in particular is 100% fail safe is reckless in itself. R-46s had self opening side doors and R-44 cars newly equipped with the Westcode master controllers did run in ATO operation. Thus we had a bulletin stating that we pull the conductor's emergency valve and apply ALL handbrakes because the valves were leaking main reservoir to the brake pipe and simultaniously the couplers were leaking the straight air to atmosphere. For Layton Gibson to perish because his train went into emergency and travel two blocks into an M train or for a number 1 train to proceed on green signals into the 103 street station with a revenue collector on the stand to me resembles a system that is nowhere near 100% fail safe.
I explained in great detail the methods used to insure failsafe design and safe braking distance in this thread. The Williamsburg Bridge accident has caused by lack of safe braking distance for a modern day train (R40) so to speak. The signal system on the bridge was placed into service around 1915 and was failsafe for the AB Standards with lower operating speeds and quick brakes. The new system being installed on the bridge right now has the extended control lines.
My comments are NOT RECKLESS as you indicated in this thread. The systems being installed today and in the past 20+ years are 100% failsafe. Examine the facts inaccordance with this thread. You must examine the true facts and read the NTSB reports on accidents to know the truths. Railfans have a tendency to jump to conclusions too often. By the way, no signal system can be designed to prevent an accident on icy track. However, the brake assurance system can dump emergency braking if the brake rate is not maintained. It's safer than your automobile with ABS.
I feel dismayed as being classified as a railfan. I am the first to endorse anti-railfan windows and would support Antibuff and Mr Hangstrapper for union reps. However my point is there is no such thing as 100% failsafe. Im sure the Washington Metro thought their's was until the collision that sent us L. Reiter who with Joe Hoffman now tells us that they are serious about safety. As long as the greedy MTA board members and the overbloated management force continue with their agendas, the NYCTA will never be close to a failsafe system. This system was built in the early 1900s and is moving into the 21 century still using wayside signals with trip cocks and sound powered phones. Yet there are still some out here who believe that the employees are solely responsible for all the disasters and say that mechanical problems don't exist. Some blame the unions and some the management but what the bean counters will do when your technology does fail is blame us 100% as the scapegoats we are made to be so on paper your new signal system will be 100% failsafe.
I am not sure that I agree with you on every point you've made. However, during a discussion about service once the 63rd St. connection is completed, one person from Operations-Planning made an all-too telling statement. Incredibly, she blamed the lack of cars for the new service on the fact that the Division of Car Equipment "does too much maintenance". Talk about a dim bulb.
At least she didn't complain about all the free publicity you are denying the TA. No crashes, no headlines.
Ill give you a couple of points for the MDBFs you have at Jamaica so here is an idea for the "dim bulb". Dedicate some R-44s for the service through the Queensbridge connection. Too much maintenance doesn't wash on that one. What the hell install feed valves so I can heal my carpal's tunnel syndrome without picking off my line.
As the expression goes, Anyone who thinks something is foolproof, underestimates the abilities of a fool. NYCT designs agains single point failure but the human element must also work properly for the system to work.
The last time an R-46 had self opening side doors - DCE took the charge although it was widely acknowledged that a female (probationary) C/R was conversing with a deadheading crew on a northbound F (July 4th a few years ago) between Bergen and Jay St. The operator stopped his train as he should. The C/R tried to clear the condition by 'beefing the doors'. For some reason her job was to be saved at all costs.
As for Mr. Gibson. Yes, the signal system had not been adjusted for the higer speeds and longer braking distances of the R type cars as compared to the ABs for which the signals were designed. However, it was never assumed that the R-type cars were designed to be operated by a sleeping operator either. Since human error has been suspected from the beginning, let's not lay this incident at the feet of the mechanical system alone.
It was once said that the cause of every disaster in public transportation, from the time of the Titanic, can be traced, at least in part, to human error.
Steve, pardon my ignorance, but what is "DCE" and "beefing the doors"?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As we say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid mistakes (due to not asking).
DCE is "The Division of Car Equipment", one of 6 operating divisions in the Department of Subways. The others are:
Rapid Transit Operations
Stations
Track
Infrastructure
Electrical (3rd Rail and Signals)
"Beefing Doors" is what conductors call it when they press the opening buttons and rapidly hit the closing buttons before the doors fully open. This technique is used to clear obstructions form doors during peak periods but it is frowned upon by DCE. First, it puts incredible mechanical stress on the door linkages and second, it will not clear a guard light with the current door obstruction system, under most conditions.
Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, it was never assumed that the R-type cars were designed to be operated by a sleeping
operator either. Since human error has been suspected from the beginning, let's not lay this
incident at the feet of the mechanical system alone.
Not to quibble, but of course the signal system was designed
to handle sleeping operators! Otherwise why bother with all those
pesky train stops and trip cocks? A block signal system with
train stops must be designed so the worst-case distance between
the trip point and the unsafe condition (e.g. train ahead)
exceeds the worst-case stopping distance (maximum speed on wet
rail).....otherwise it's like protecting a 14ga wire with a 200 amp
fuse...yeah, you've got a protective device, but when the
fecal matter contacts the rotary ventillation system, what is it
really protecting?
Or another way of looking at it...in the railway biz, it usually
takes at least 2 things to make an accident
Jeff, Of course you are correct. The signal system should have protected regardless. Thanks for pointing out my ooops!
It's a cliche to say that nothing is 100% safe, but it bears repeating in this context. In fact I have trouble believing you said it.
With hindsight, one can always suggest an automatic scheme that would have prevented an accident. The trick is to design a scheme that considers EVERY POSSIBLE CONTINGENCY ****BEFOREHAND**** and prevents that circumstance from leading to an accident. I think it is fair to say that that is NOT possible.
I have posted before that I think ATO -With an Operator Watching Over It- is a very safe system, and safer than just using signals. But in the real world of NYC transit, it would be unwise to remove the human overseeing the operation of the controls.
Yes, one can put in automation to account for ice on the rails. But you say that AFTER ATO killed an operator because it could not account for ice on the rails. (He wanted to override the system, because he could see that it was not operating properly. He was denied permission to do so. Does anyone know if anyone at WMATA lost their job as a result of their error, which killed this guy?) There are an infinite number of situations a transit operation can encounter, they cannot all be anticipated ahead of time.
ATO is a great thing. Using it to remove operators from trains is stupid. For that reason, operators should also regularly have to operate trains, to keep skills good. If they screw up doing so, than ATO can slow/stop the train.
Laurence Reiter left his job at WMATA after that incident. Does anyone know where he is working now?
Guess which transit system is now under his mismanagement?
NYCTA right here in New York CITY... MTA the mother agency paid handsomely to get mr. REUTER , REITER whatever.. his closing costs on his Virginia home and some other nice costly perks. The man is taken cared of very well..
Yes and his posters are up with his slogan "We are serious about safety". Unfortunately one motorman out of each of his resumes are dead because of his dedication to efficient train service.
One might compare the ATO system being discussed in this thread with auto-pilot systems used in airplanes. Most of the time, the plane flies itself while the pilot "looks over its shoulder." Every now and then, I've been told, the pilot has to take over. I would not want to be on an airplane that was fully automated.
mind you over 4 million subway riders in New York City get to their destinations safely every day with a LIVING person at the controls. I can see where automation is going to come on the scene and you could put a welfare recipient at the controls of a train to work their benefits off...look at all the STUPORVISION that has mushroomed within the walls of MTA more chiefs than indians how is that saving anyone money? crew restrooms aren't cleaned on a regular basis much less stocked with toilet paper or soap. Station platforms are FILTHY and garbage cans over flowing in plenty of locations creating a safety hazard.
Sure ATO is attributable to one operators death, however can an automated transit system transport the volume that NYC has?
Washington DC San Franisco Atlanta Chicago combined don't some anywhere near NYCTA's daily capacity..
The tripper is mounted on the shoe beam.
In both cases - you have a less than perfect (I origionally said lousey here) system - a single point of failure renders it all useless. I know LIRR trains (and MN too) will drop to restricting if the wayside equipment dies, on account of loosing the impulse coding that's being sent. That at least will slow trains, however you can still go 15mph. Why the LIRR's system can't ENFORCE a stop and stay signal, is beyond me - though I guess it's a limitation of the equipment due to the technology of the time it was put in. It apparently CAN tell between stop and restricting though, as I've seen both '0' and '15' indicated on them. i believe they also indicate 60, 70, and 80, though it's always stuck on '80', even on the Port Wash line, which I believe has an MAS (near Manhasset to PW at least) of lower than 80. I couldn't imagine going around all those turns at 80.
Anyway - what are all the indications possiogble on the LIRR's system, and why don't they use this as a way of doing speed enforcement / semi automatic operation (make use of the ATO notch even maybe?)
Correct, I meant adjustment of the trip cock on the truck. Sorry.
Absolutely right,Anthony. Some engineering types I've spoken to think that ATO turns a transit system into a big Lionel set. Possible? Yes. Practical in the real world that you describe? NOT!
IMHO,they always leave the most unpredictable factor out of their equations:Passengers. They don't seem to believe that people in the ways that both you and I have seen......
You are wrong. People are taken into account. Paris has driverless train and it works great. I participated in the testing of the driveless people mover system called Airtrans at the Dallas/Fort Worth Airport in 1973 for General Railway Signal and it works great.
Westinghouse, Adtranz today, provides driveless trains for the people mover systems in the Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Denver Airports and it works great.
PATCO is the first system in the United States with Automatic Train Operation (ATO) with an operator and it works great.
If you enclose the stations with doors on the platform handshaked to the trains doors then the driveless is the way to go.
And don't forget the Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle on Track 4 from 1962 to 1964 which mysteriously went on fire in 1964. Was it the Union? We will never know.
Paris' "Meteor" and airport people movers were built with it in mind. As I stated, I have no argument regarding feasibility in such situations. I just don't think it's practical in properties that weren't designed for it. Prior to becoming PATCO,the line had been operated by PTC and SEPTA. Installing the modifications closed the line for over a month.
The Shuttle was a one train on one track deal,with no interlockings or other traffic to contend with. While it did prove that the basic technology was workable,it did nothing to prove that it would be practical under multi-track,heavy traffic conditions.
True,we'll never know the origins of the Shuttle fire. IMHO,it's unfair to point fingers without hard evidence. What we DO know is that when the fire broke out,the station was evacuated and several other sets of equipment were saved by imperfect,unreliable HUMANS.
My personal opinonn is that automation is fine for supervising / enforecing the rules- but leave humans in the loop to actually control the train.
Everyone mentions elevators here - but, an elevator does have track switches, they go MUCH slower, you have the luxury of hooking a cable up to the car (do they do THAT in the Empire State Building?) for control. Oh yeah, people aren't in the shaft, except for the occasional surfer. You have switches mountewd everywhere for positioning. The motor / brakes reaspond much faster. It never snows in an elevator shaft. And, I've seen quite a few elevators blow it too - stopping too high / low, opening the doors while moving, etc.
It's not a hard jump to a people mover, but it's a BIG jump to a rail application.
"IMHO,they always leave the most unpredictable factor out of their equations:Passengers. They don't seem to believe that people in
the ways that both you and I have seen......"
But elevators also have passengers that do asinine things like holding the doors -- there's a strong resemblance between "stand clear of the doors, there's another train behind this one" (oft heard here in Chicago on CTA!) and "don't hold the doors, let them catch the next elevator." (^: Elevators seem to manage fine operating totally automatically even in the face of the various stunts pulled by the riding public.
Now I would agree that:
1) retrofitting totally automatic train operation is expensive, must be done 100% or not at all, and may not be appropriate for existing systems;
2) ATO is probably not appropriate for systems with a lot of trespasser incursions, though I suspect this is more a surface ROW thing and affects commuter rail much more than rapid transit; and
3) ATO is REALLY not doable at all for light rail that actually runs in the street.
But if a system is designed with ATO in mind, has no street running, and either is all grade separated or maintains fencing on all grade-level ROW, I don't see why ATO is any more unworkable than the automatic elevator.
That is, unless you're looking at it from the [train or elevator] operator's perspective. (^:
No argument that it might be possible on a system built from scratch with that purpose in mind. Platform doors would be required along with measures to make the entire ROW intrusion resistant.(Intrusion PROOF is an impossibility.) Rolling stock would have to be fitted with some sort of some sort of track obstruction sensing device. ROW trespassing is a problem for Rapid Transit systems; I've seen a number of people take walks in subway tunnels. Question: Assuming said obstruction sensor is in place,a train detects an obstruction and stops;with no employee on board to investigate,how do we deal with the situation without incurring major delays?
My point is that older systems will probably never operate crewless trains,for many of the reasons you cite.ATO,therefore,is a waste of money as its full potential will never be realized. There are other advanced train control systems like the one I mentioned earlier that keep the operator "in the loop" while using computer supervision to detect and act upon human error before an incident occurs. They're not as glamorous to the engineering types,but they're still an improvement over the present signals and trippers.
I honestly think that moving the volume of people that NYCTA does that automation is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!. I sit here and can't imagine in a city of this size with the present subway modified into some robosized lionel set. I don't see any plans mentioned for automating LIRR or MNRR? or maybe the affluence of the riders has been taken into account?
Automation wouldn't work on commuter rail because of the grade separation and on-board fare collection. I still think it should be automated anyway. I can't see that the rich people care about who's operating the train any more than the others. In fact, I'll bet the affluent suburbanites would love to eliminate these jobs that they consider useless and money wasting.
i've never given a flying f**k what affluent people thought to begin with and wouldn't begin now...
Then why did you bother mention the commuter railroads as affluent if you don't care?
I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Tsk. Tsk.
what happens when water leaks into the control box on the train and the doors open when the train in moving? or the the trains' computers become "self aware". ever see terminator 2? people alway want things to be automatic. I aint payin a buck fity or (whatever it will be) if a robot is drivin the train. next thing you know people will want an automatic butt-scratcher! Automation is not always the answer
Why won't you? Isn't the $1.50 for transport or do you believe it's there for the benefit of some person? Anyway, as for automatic butt scratching, people usually don't pay someone by the hour to do that. People pay by the hour to drive a train.
P line: 2Av Local
Fulton St/Water St Manhattan to Baychester Av/Bartow Av, Bx.
All times, Rush hour express in Bx in peak direction....
Fulton St-South St Seaport/Water St
Brooklyn Bridge/Pearl St
Chatham Square
Grand St/Chrystie St, Transfer:B,D
Houston St/2Av*, Transfer: F,J,Z
9St/2Av
14St/2Av, Transfer:L (at 3Av)
23St/2Av
28St/2Av
34St/2Av*
42St/2Av*, Transfer:4,5,6,7,S(at Grand Central via 7)
50St/2Av
59St/2Av*, Transfer:4,5,6,N,R(at Lexington via N,R)
67St/2Av*, Transfer:Q
72St/2Av
79St/2Av
86St/2Av
96St/2Av
106St/2Av
116St/2Av
125St/2Av*
-------------------------------------------------------------
138St/3Av*, Transfer:6
149St/3Av*, Transfer:2,5
163St/3Av, Transfer: J on the upper level
169St/Boston Rd
Claremont Pkwy/Boston Rd
Southern Blvd/Boston Rd, Transfer:2,5
West Farms Rd/E.174St
E.Tremont Av/Morris Park Av*
White Plains Rd/Morris Park Av
Bronxdale Av/Morris Park Av
Wililiamsbridge Rd/Morris Park Av
Neill Av/Williamsbridge Rd
Pelham Pkwy/Wilson Av*
Allerton Av/Wilson Av
Eastchester Rd/Allerton Av
Gunther Av/Allerton Av
Baychester Av/Bartow Av
Line will be subway until West Farms Rd, elevated till the end.
Storage Yard will be between West Farms Rd and E.Tremont Av and Fulton St-South St Seaport.
Main Yard at 125St/Harlem Yard.
Switches/Interlockings at Houston, 42,67,125, and 149Sts.
Mini switches from northbound local to express at 86. Southbound local to express at 96St.
Switches at E.Tremont Av and Pelham Pkwy.
Track Configuration:
2 tracks from Fulton St to Houston St
6 tracks at Houston (part time terminus)
4 tracks from Houston to 125
6 tracks at 125(4 on upper level and a 2 track terminus on the lower level with the tracks continiuing either back to the upper level or to the Harlem Yard.)
4 tracks from 125 to 149
2 tracks from 149 to 163
3 tracks from 163 to Baychester Av.
Any comments and/or suggestions? Part 2 the J,Z line will be next....
I didn't know you engaged in fantasy
Yep that is all it is. A FANTASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STAY TUNED!!!!
I don't think you should use the letter P, it would be confusing to tourists due to its likeness to R.
How about the H line? This would be especially appropriate since the Second Avenue line was part of the planned IND Second System, and the IND lines that were actually built went from A to G. Therefore, I would imagine that if the 2nd Avenue had been built when it was supposed to be, in the 1930s, it would have been the H line.
[How about the H line? This would be especially appropriate since the Second Avenue line was part of the planned IND Second System, and the IND lines that were actually built went from A to G. Therefore, I would imagine that if the 2nd Avenue had been built when it was supposed to be, in the 1930s, it would have been the H line.]
H is sometimes used to designate the Rockaway Park shuttle.
BTW - the Second Avenue line was not part of the planned IND Second System. Indeed, plans for the line predated the IND.
Not counting numbers, which letter(s) of the alphabet are NOT used for a primary station name. A secondary name does NOT count.
Hint: there is one letter definitely not used and a second has a prefix in front.
Y
Nope - there's York Street (F).
Wayne
Youre right damn. I wanted to say X at first but there's Ave.X
What constitutes the letter of the "primary name"? The phrase "Avenue X" starts with an "A" for "Avenue". And there is at least one station whose name starts with every other letter of the alphabet. So I say "X" it is.
[What constitutes the letter of the "primary name"? The phrase "Avenue X" starts with an "A" for "Avenue". And there is at least one station whose name starts with every other letter of the alphabet. So I say "X" it is.]
This lack of an "X" in the primary name of a station is regrettable, but it *can* be corrected. Xenia Avenue would be a logical place for a station on a new line connecting the 7 at 11th Street with the Queens Boulevard lines at 65th. We're not going to bother with some troublesome details, mainly the fact that such a line would be utterly pointless :-)
There's also a Xenia Avenue on Staten Island, no more than a few blocks east of the SIRT line.
While we're on the subject of Brooklyn "Avenues", (and, unfortunately, off the main topic :~) - why was there never an Avenue "E" in Brooklyn? I can see where Avenue "G" and Avenue "Q" would have gone (Glenwood Road and Quentin Road), but the only place I could see Avenue "E" being would be Foster Avenue.
Wayne
[ Avenues E, G, Q in Brooklyn ]
Wayne, Ave. E is a puzzle to me. The obvious answer would be Newkirk, but where Avenue F exists (east of Ocean Parkway) it is nouth of both Newkirk and Foster, so if one of the latter were "E", it would illogically come after "F." I have no evidence there ever was an Avenue E.
Ave "G" was the portion of Glenwood between Coney Island Ave. and Flatbush Ave., c.1926.
Ave "Q" did become Quentin Rd. I wonder if the local residents liked it better or it was easier to pronounce. Everyone I ever knew dealt with the pronunciation of Avenue U, by saying "av-en-YUH YOO" where they would otherwise say (for example) av-en-YOO TEE.
There is no "V" in any primary name of a station. Nor is there a "Q".
Wouldn't you count Van Siclen as one word - (the "Van" being an old Dutch prefix)?
Wayne
There are several Q: Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza, Queens Bridge come to mind immediately.
The only letter not used is "X" unless you wish to count Avenue "X".
The odd letters:
I: Intervale, Avenue "I"
J: Jay, Jefferson, Jackson, Junius, Avenue "J", Junction Blvd,
Jamaica-Van Wyck
K: Kosciuszko, Kingston, Kingston-Throop, Kingsbridge (2), Kingston,
Kings Highway (3), Knickerbocker
O: Ocean Parkway
Q: Queens Pza., Queensboro Plaza
U: Utica (2), Union Square, Union Street, Avenue "U" (3),
Union Turnpike
V: Van Siclen (3), Van Wyck, Vernon-Jackson
X: Avenue "X"
Y: York
Z: Zerega
Wayne
So I was correct then right?
Yes you most certainly were.
Wayne
What do I win???????????????
Are you sure you don't mean the first letter of the station name?
Atlantic Avenue
Beverley Road
Church Avenue
DeKalb Avenue
Euclid Avenue
Fort Hamilton Parkway
Grand Street
Hoyt Street
Intervale Avenue
Junius Street
Kings Highway
Livonia Avenue
Metropolitan Avenue
Nevins Street
Ocean Parkway
Pacific Street
Queensboro Plaza
Rector Street
Steinway Street
Tremont Avenue
Utica Avenue
Van Wyck Boulevard OR Van Siclen Avenue (Van is the prefix you referred to?)
Wall Street
X-**None begins with X, but Avenue X exists.
York Street
Zerega Avenue
The recent thread on the upcoming 95th anniversary prompted me to search my tape archive for the report I did for the CBS Radio Network on the 90th Anniversary. Below is a link to the .wav file of that report. The background sound is that of the LO-Vs that were operated on the Times Square Shuttle; the whine of the motors is especially evident during the sound bite of my interview with the conductor.
Beware! This is a 771K .wav file, and may take a bit to download for those of you who are T-1 impared. The report lasts about 35 seconds. Enjoy!!!
CBS Radio Network Report on the 90th Anniversary of the NYC Subway System
Todd, this file (like others on your site) open with something called "Sound Machine". Where can we find it or what else can be used to open the files?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those are .wav files- very generic and just about every operating system has something that can play them. If your system is trying to open "Sound Machine" it's in your browser settings. Why not just save it to your local drive and use Microsoft's Media Player to listen to it (assuming you've got a Windows machine).
Actually, I've got a Mac. But if I follow your logic correctly then I should be able to make QuickTime 4 work.
(two minutes later)
OK, it did! Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went to NYC to take pictures on NYC subways. I went to Willets Point-Shea Stadium, Queensboro Plaza, 4 Av (F), and several stations along the Brighton line. It was partly cloudy in the morning, but increasing clouds in the afternoon.
Here are my observations:
(1) I saw R62A 1906 with a yellow sticker on the #3 line.
(2) As posted earlier, the R36 odd-coupled 9348-9411 were in the
Corona Yard this morning.
(3) I saw three R42 trains on the Q line.
(4) There were two R46 E trains. The leftmost number was headed to
WTC. The rightmost number was headed to Queens.
5726-5727-5729-5728-6038-6039-6041-6040
5820-5821-5819-5818-5704-5705-5703-5702
Chaohwa
I have noticed that there are more bi-levels running on the Montauk Branch. I haven't seen the usual consist of former MU push/pulls bracketed by a GP38-2 and a MP15AC or an Alco FA or EMD F7 power car. The consist of the new trains on the Montauk Branch is usually a single DE30AC in charge of four bi-levels. As usual, no sign of the DM30AC's yet; at least not on this branch.
DM30AC #506 (East) and #508 (west) were being put through their paces this afternoon, hauling 8 Bi-levels. Seen in Jamaica station around 3:30 PM heading for Morris Park.
Steve,
Can you please recap the unit numbers of the DMs vs the DEs?
[ Steve,
Can you please recap the unit numbers of the DMs vs the DEs?
]
(I'm not the Steve you asked, but)..
The LIRR 1xx (100-149) series are SW series switchers (i.e. harold protect). (I think it's just 101-104).
150-199 would be MP15AC's (I think actual units range from 151-180 or thereabouts).
250-299 would be the GP38-2's.
3xx are the FL9AC's (only 3 units)
4xx are the DE30AC's (diesel only).
5xx are the DM30AC's (dual-mode)
6xx are the HEP/CC units.
Actually, I think the 2 locos at Harold are 102 and 104
The info I have on the DE30AC & DM30AC is that there will be 23 of each so I suppose that they will run 401-424 and 501-524. Again, this is a supposition.
I've seen numbers as high as 420 (heh) already. As for the Oyster Bay line, surprise surprise - we're back to the junky trains again - I've not seen any double deckers here in a few days - I think we have a grand total of one or 2 a day. Really annoying too that my LIRR ticket is going to pay for new equipment that I never see. Actually, I don't expect the old stuff to go away for another few years. hey - anyone think the LIRR will demotor some M-1s when the 7's come in 5 years and use them as diesel cars?
Metro-North is thinking about doing the same thing to their M2 cars. They're not sure if they will rebuild or replace them. As for the LIRR, why not? Once the conversion happens, they'll become as filthy and bedraggled as the current fleet of push/pulls.
There is a bilvel you just gotta know when it comes I was on one yesterday
[ DM30AC #506 (East) and #508 (west) were being put through their paces
this afternoon, hauling 8 Bi-levels. Seen in Jamaica station around
3:30 PM heading for Morris Park. ]
I did post this yesterday morning -- I saw the same consist heading east near hall tower, at about 8:30AM.
It seemed rather close to rush hour for testing...
Metro-North is trying to get back the FL9's that were rebuilt as FL9AC's and were assigned to the LIRR. MN favors the higher horsepower of these units than the unrebuilt ones. The rebuilding program was not as successful as they hoped, considering that each rebuilt unit cost $4.3 million apiece. But MN wants to run the FL9AC's until at least 2005.
Improve Bronx Services Plan
Extensions Proposed:
6) extended from Pelham Park to Co-op City
D) extended from 205th Street to White Plains Road/Gun Hill Road connect with 2 and 5
Notes:
New service to Co-op City will give residences direct access to mass train service.
While the D/2,5 connection will give passengers better access to the West and East Bronx.
Future expansions:
D - Possibly to Co-op City along Gun Hill Road
8 Or H (New Third Avenue Elevated Line)
Univeristy Ave (Fordham Rd) Underground Tunnel 2 Tracks (transfer 4)
Grand ConCourse (Fordham Road)UT2 (transfer D,4)
Fordham Plaza (Fordham Road) UT3 "Exp. Station Term." (Metro North)
184rd Street (Third Avenue) Outside/Elevated 3
181st Street (Third Avenue) OE3
E. Tremont Avenue (Third Avenue) OE3
173rd Street (Third Avenue)OE3
Crotona Park South (Third Avenue) OE3
167th Street (Third Avenue) OE3
163rd Street (Third Avenue) OE3
149th Street (Third Avenue) OE3 "Exp. Station" (transfer 2,5exp)
138th Street (Third Avenue) OE3 (Transfer 6/6exp)
Inside water tunnel to 125th Street 2nd Avenue Manhattan.
Demolish the Number 4 line from 167 to Mosholu Parkway
in it's place rebuild new elevated subway on Ogden-University Avs.
Woodlawn Station (Jerome Avenue)
Turn onto Gunhill Road West onto Goulden Avenue
Moshulu Pkwy Two (Goulden Avenue) Track Elevated
Bedford Park Blvd (Goulden Avenue) 2TE
W. KingsBridge Road (Goulden Avenue) 3TE Express Service Terminal
W. Fordham Road 3TE (University Avenue)3TE (Transfer 8)
W. 181st Street/Bx. Community College (University Avenue) 3TE
W. Tremont Avenue (University Avenue) 3TE
Washington Bridge (University Avenue) Express Station 3TE
W. 168th Street (Odgen Avenue) 3TE
W. 165th Street (Odgen Avenue) 3TE
W. 161st Street (River Avenue) 3TE (Transfer B,D)
W. 149th Street (Grand Concourse) 3TE (Transfer 2, 5local PM/AM Rush)
W. 125th Street (Lexington Avenue) 4TE (Transfer 5,6)
Doesn't seem low cost to me.
If they ever build the LIRR to GCT, the lowest cost improvement may be to build an East Bronx commuter rail line in the Amtrak ROW. It certainly has the room, and may even have more than two tracks? The service would compete with the New York Bus Service, and offer New Haven Line riders a choice of GCT or Penn.
why not just run some New Haven route trains via the Hell Gate Bridge into Penn Station? however isn't Penn Station just bursting at the seams already?
Penn Station is, absolutely - even with the capacity improvements currently underway, it won't help the LIRR situation, just NJT and Amtrak, and even then not much. That's why they want to build the connections to GCT - plenty of terminal space there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, however, we must considered the passengers who might have trouble paying for commuter service.
Dear Readers,
How much will it cost to extend the D line from 205th Street to White Plains Road/Gun Hill Road Bronx; connect the 2/5. Tunneling.
And, how much wil it cost to extend the 6 line from Pelham Bay Park to Co-op City. All elevated.
Approximate Cost, Thank you.
figure for extending the D in a subway configuration maybe around (in ball park figures)10 million dollars a mile and extending the 6 5-6 million per mile... i'm just throwing figures off the top of my head anyone have some data on cost/
The MTA seems to think it costs $1 billion per mile to build a subway. That's right, $1 billion, with cost over-runs on top of that. If it cost even $200 million, the cost level in L.A., we'd be building.
[The MTA seems to think it costs $1 billion per mile to build a subway. That's right, $1 billion, with cost over-runs on top of that. If it cost even $200 million, the cost level in L.A., we'd be building.]
That $1 billion figure was for the Second Avenue subway. I'd assume that construction costs in the Bronx would be quite a bit lower. There would be less above- and below-ground congestion than in Manhattan. Even so, it's hard to imagine that the costs would be as low as $200 million per mile.
A big factor in extending any tunnel is the surface infrastructure which has to be relocated. The dependence of business on telephone, fibre optic and electric lines make the relocation of these lines challenging and requires that any work be done at night and planned as to outages incurred. The big dig in Boston spent five years doing this! Deep tunneling is not an option in the Bronx due to the amount of rock involved and the existing shallow end of the Concourse line.
And no matter how poor the neighborhood, and no matter what economic benefit - nobody wants an el outside their window!
Makes it hard to acomplish anything.
Don't it always seem to go - that you don't know what you've got 'til its gone!
Hey guys,
Thanks for the responses on my research topic. I will be folowing up on your leads. As we say in Jamaiaca 'Irie, One Love".
Garfield
Dave, I've been looking at different tower model boards. The newer ones don't seem to convey as much information as the older ones. The best I figure are the old IND ones.
They have all the signals drawn on them.
But the indicator bulbs light up for more than one automatic. When a train is passing through a certain area I can see painted on the board several automatics but there's only one line and bulb for the area. Is that the control line? And are those cut sections? New boards have one bulb for every signal. The white line corresponds for each. But not on the old IND ones.
David didn't respond to this, so I guess I'll take a shot.
On the original IND model boards (not the newer NX/UR types)
there is a track indication light for every block. Where
there are approach signals and station timers then there is
more than one signal per block and there aren't individual lights.
A cut section is a place where there's an insulated joint separating
two track circuits, but no associated signal.
Every few days I get a package from our public relations dept. It contains news articles and editorials (related to transit or local gov't.). The packet I received for July 2-5 was interesting. There were 3 articles about the fire on the A line. What I found most interesting was the count of the number of people trapped. The times said that it was 350 people. The Daily News said it was 2,000 and the Post said it was 2,500. No particular point here, just an interesting observation...
No mystery at all - the Times actually counted, or printed the number furnished by the NYPD; the News took the total number of people who came out of the affected stations, whether or not they were on the train; and the Post had to come up with a more spectacular number, so they listened to the number being called in by the News reporter and added 25%.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Each paper's reporter probably asked a cop... and got a different answer. Or the reporter guessed. It's kinda like the Straphanger's Campaign ratings -- no scientific methods here!
And I'm sure a news wire service got a "report" that 4,712 people were trapped ....
--Mark
Thank you Todd! As usual, you knew exactly where I was coming from. The number of trapped people and the ratings of various subway lines are based on extremely unscientific data. They should be viewed in that context.
One thing to keep in mind, with respect to the trapped-riders number, is that crowd estimates of any sort are usually rough guesses at best (unless, of course, you're counting ticketholders or other easily quantifiable groups). No one *really* knows how many people jam into Times Square to see the ball drop on New Year's Eve. It's quite likely that the various estimates you see are off by as much as a third. And so it goes for last week's incident in Brooklyn.
with all the turnstiles hooked up with the computers into Livingston Plaza i wonder why statistical data couldn't be broadcast to provide a picture of customer usage. ridership whether token for farecard is stored in area controllers and at certain times during the day this info is feed to computers in Livington Plaza.
I'm not a subway expert, so forgive me for my ignorance but:
I was looking through the NYCTA line guides at this site and saw that the NYCTA has an active interlocking tower. I thought the entire subway system was run from a centralized location(like CTC). How many NYCTA towers are still active? Do they use armstrong, pistol grip, or push buttons? What do these towers look like?
Thanks.
I'm sure someone will coreect me if I leave any out:
IRT - These are 24\7 towers. There are also a number of satellite towers that are not always in use.
240 St
Times Square Mainline
Nevins St
Utica Ave
Livonia
239 St
E.180 St
149 St/ Grand Concourse (Mott)
Grand Central
Lenox
Jerome or Mosholu
Westchester Ave Master Tower
Times Square Queens
111 St
Queensborough Plaza
BMT/IND - I think I got all the Master Towers, but since I 'veonly worked on the N line, the first 5 are the only ones I'm absolutely certain of.
Stillwell Tower
Joe Murphy Tower (38 ST Yard)
DeKalb
City Hall
Queensborough Plaza
207 St
Concourse
59 St Master Tower
Essex St
Church Ave
(Queens Blvd?)
Parsons/Archer
179 St
Pitkin
East New York Master Tower
Liberty Junction
Rockaway Park
Most of these towers use push-buttons and range in style from being located in nice buildings to hidey-holes in the bowels of the station to what amounts to a small shack in the middle of nowhere.
Add West 4th Street to the IND list. (It's at the south end of the downtown platform on the lower level. You can easily watch the board from the platform. Very interesting.)
Bill
There is a board in the Court Street station (Transit Museum) that still shows the location of trains - not sure if this was considered a sub-tower or what.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here are some other towers that are used 24/7....
IRT
White Plains Mainline tower
BMT/IND
Jay St
Canal St
34th St(6th AV)
5th AV (E/F)
205th St
Bedford Park
Queens Plaza
Bergen St
4th AV (F/G)
Continental
Van Wyck Boulevard
8th Avenue(West End)
Isn't White Plains Mainline the same as 239th St?
No, there are two towers. 239 is in the yard, while the mainline tower is used for the terminal and the leads interlocking with the mainline.
Dont you mean 8Av(Sea Beach) or 9Av(West End)? I think it is the latter..........
Actually, the tower that controls the switches just north of 9th Av on the West End is referred to as 8th Avenue Tower. The tower that controls the switches just north of 8th Av on the Sea Beach (not 59th St) is referred to as the 6th Av tower, although this will be replaced by Stillwell Tower when all the signal work is done. 5th Av Cut tower is the tower that controls the switches that lead from the West End to the South Brooklyn Railroad.
And looking back at my previous post, I had a mental block, that was corrected, it's not Simpson Street on the White Plains line, it's Freeman St.
Just out of curiousity, when did the subway finally extend out to Coney Island? I think it might have been sometime in the late twenties, but then again I'm not the expert you guys are so I'm probably wrong. Thanks. Salvo.
[ Just out of curiousity, when did the subway finally extend out to
Coney Island? I think it might have been sometime in the late
twenties, ]
Well, there are no underground subways to Coney Island, but the elevated and street level lines were built there much earlier than that -- they were built in the 19th century as steam lines.. I'm sure someone can chime in with dates for the various lines.
Steve, I knew there were no actual underground tunnels out to Coney, but the proper terminology escaped me. I've been going out there every summer for as long as I can remember with my family and for as long as I've been alive Stilwell Avenue station has pretty much looked the same. My grandfather told me years ago that it wasn't there when he was a young man. I was just curious as to when that particular station came into being. Thanks for the information though.I do appreciate that you tried to educate me with your response to my question, and I'm being genuine here. Later, Salvo.
Salvo ... here you go .... most of this info is right on this site. Click on the links below for all the details!
Warning - long post!
From the Brighton Line history:
The Brighton Line began service on July 2, 1878 as the Brooklyn, Flatbush, and Coney Island Railroad, between Prospect Park and the Brighton Beach Hotel as a surface steam railroad. (The Brighton Beach Hotel was owned by the railway.) It was extended on August 19, 1878 at the north end to Atlantic Avenue and Franklin St. (now Franklin Avenue), where it connected with the LIRR mainline. The LIRR, however, owned the competing Manhattan Beach RR, and terminated the trackage right agreement in December, 1883. The BF&CI was then reorganized as the Brooklyn & Brighton Beach Railroad in 1887.
By 1900, through a series of mergers and acquisitions, the Brooklyn Rapid Transit company has gained control the Kings County Elevated (and the Brighton Line), along with almost every other railroad, elevated and streetcar line in Brooklyn, with the exception of some LIRR routes. In 1903, a short extension on the surface connected the Brighton Line with the Culver Terminal in Coney Island. Between 1905 and 1908, the BRT performed a major upgrade to the Brighton Line, building much of its present right of way. The line was elevated from the Fulton El connection at Fulton and Franklin, then ran in an open cut from north of Prospect Park to Newkirk Avenue, then ramped up to an embankment to Sheepshead Bay, where the line descended to the surface for the last section to Coney Island. Between Church Avenue and Sheepshead Bay, there were four tracks.
During the "Dual Contracts" period of subway construction, the surface-running section from Sheepshead Bay was elevated and increased to four tracks. The first section, between Sheepshead Bay and Ocean Parkway, opened on April 22, 1917. It was extended to West 8th Street on May 30, 1917, and to the new Stillwell Avenue terminal on May 29, 1919.
From the Culver Line History:
The Culver Line began service on June 19th, 1875 as a steam railroad called the Prospect Park and Coney Island between Prospect Park (9th Ave and 20th Street) and Gravesend Avenue and Neck Road. On July 27th of the same year, the steam line reached Cable's Hotel (later known as the Ocean View) in the West Brighton section of Coney Island at Culver Terminal. (Culver Terminal is the predecessor to today's Stillwell Avenue; its original location was at Surf Avenue and West 5th Street approximately where the Brightwater Towers stand today. Culver Terminal was a surface terminal adjacent to a roller coaster.) In 1879, the railroad leased the New York and Coney Island Railroad, and service began between Culver Terminal and Norton's Point, the very western most tip of Coney Island. Connections to steamboats to/from New York City were made at Norton's Point.
In 1919, the Culver Elevated was built over the South Brooklyn ROW (between 36th and 37th Streets from approximately 10th Ave to McDonald Ave) and over McDonald Avenue from approximately Ditmas Ave to Kings Highway, and then later to Avenue X. By 1920, this elevated structure was extended to the present-day connection with the Brighton Line at West 8th Street.
From the History of the Sea Beach Line:
The Sea Beach Line began service on July 18th, 1877 as a steam railroad called the New York and Sea Beach between the 64th Street pier and Bath junction (approximately where 62nd Street & New Utrecht Avenue intersect today). In 1879, the steam line reached the Sea Beach Palace Hotel in Coney Island and terminated at Sea Beach depot, located between the West End and Culver depots.
In 1896, the railroad was reorganized into the Sea Beach Railway Company. In 1898, the line was electrified with trolley wire and in 1903, the BRT began through service between Bath Junction and Coney Island. This was done by coupling and uncoupling Sea Beach cars to/from 5th Avenue - West End trains at Bath Junction. Trolleys ran west of Bath Junction to the pier and later to a ramp near 3rd Avenue. In 1910, Sea Beach trains began terminating at West End depot.
Between 1913 and 1915 as part of the Dual Contracts, the Sea Beach line as we know it today was built between Coney Island and the 4th Avenue Subway at 59th Street. This was looked upon as a significant line because the Sea Beach would provide passengers with the fastest express route to Manhattan then available in New York City. Also, the BRT planned on debuting the 67' Standard subway cars on this line when it opened. The 4 track Sea Beach route, virtually all open cut, had no express stops between Coney Island and 59th Street.
The new Sea Beach Line began revenue service on June 22nd, 1915 and connected into the 4th Avenue subway and Manhattan Bridge to Chambers Street. This was the first subway service made available in the 4th Avenue subway and the first on the Manhattan Bridge. Sea Beach trains began using the new Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island terminal on May 30th, 1919.
From The History of the West End Line
The West End Line began service in 1864 as a steam railroad called the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island between 25th St and 5th Ave in South Brooklyn to the Bath section of Brooklyn, which in today's map would be 65th Street and New Utrecht Avenue. In 1867, the steam line reached Coney Island, making it the first steam railroad to reach the Atlantic Ocean at this location. In 1885, a branch was bulilt from 5th Avenue and 38th Street to Second Avenue and 39th Street as a ferry connection. Also in 1885, the BB&CI was reorganized into the Brooklyn, Bath and West End Railroad.
In 1889, when the 5th Ave El reached 5th Ave and 36th St, the railroad was abandoned north of 36th St. Trains then ran from 2 branches, one from the ferries and one from the junction of the 5th Ave El, to Tivoli's Hotel in Coney Island. The two branches joined in West Brooklyn, which is approximately where New Utrecht Ave & Ft Hamilton Pkwy meet now.
In 1893, the line was electrified with trolley wire and merged with the Atlantic Avenue Railroad which itself merged with the Nassau Electric Railroad in 1898. In November of 1893, the Atlantic Avenue Railroad started running streetcars on the line, and in early 1894, railway post office mail was begun on the line to Coney Island.
In 1901, BRT elevated trains began using the surface West End trackage, using trolley poles. Service connected to the West End from a ramp of the 5th Avenue elevated at 36th Street. Called the "5th Ave - West End Line", it ran using third rail from Sands St or Park Row to 36th St and then by trolley pole to Coney Island. Originally, the West End Line has its own Coney Island terminal, but later in the 1900s shared a terminal with the Sea Beach line.
In 1919, both the Culver and West End Lines moved to their new terminal, the present-day Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island BMT stop.
(Whew!)
--Mark
I appreciate the information that you left for me Mark. If I recall correctly with what my grandfather told me about thirty years ago, it stands to reason that he wouldn't remember the Stilwell Avenue station. It hadn't been built when he moved out of the city to Oyster Bay. I'm relatively new to this site, so thanks for pointing this out to me. Talk with you later. Salvo
FL-9 302 "Mike O'Connor back in service this morning on bi-level!!
Normal, on time operations occurred.
There is a card for the long distance service "101-6868" coming out. I do not yet have a list of stations but it will be available at the main booth, uptown side of 23rd and 8th ave. In a strange move, I got the cards before the bulletin! whern I see the bulletin I'll post the list of stations.
Re: The "ABCNews.COM" card that came out (again) July 5th.
Have got one with UN Sect. Kofi's likeness ... does anyone know how many different ones there are ? (Prev., March 99, it was Nelson Mandell & Fidel Castro).
Mr t__:^)
Construction on the new turnout just east of the tunnel portal of East River line #2 continues.
From what I've heard (maybe here, I don't remember), this is to reconstruct a long-ago removed crossover, and make line #2 accessable from some more northerly tracks.
What's new that I see, is that it looks like they are building a little 2 track "yardlet", right next to the shuttle portal. It's not very long, but it will be in the now fenced in area north of line #2, from the switches on the east, to just about HP ave on the west.
Anyone know what the proposed use of these two tracks would be? Just some place to stick work equipment during rush hours?
I am typing out a chart of the BMT number chart services from
1925 to 1960, when the number code was in use. I need to know how the
each of the BMT lines operated in those years:
(1) Brighton Local & Express
(2) 4th Avenue Local
(3) West End Local & Express
(4) Sea Beach Express
(5) Culver Local & Express
(6) 5th Avenue
(7) Franklin Avenue-Brighton Local
(8) Astoria Local
(9) Flushing Local & Express
(10) Myrtle Avenue-Chambers Street Express
(11) Myrtle Avenue Local
(12) Lexington Avenue Local
(13) 14th Street-Fulton Street Local & Express
(14) Broadway-Brooklyn Local
(15) Jamaica Local & Express
(16) 14th Street-Canarsie Local & Express
James S. Li
I am typing out a chart of the BMT number chart services from
1925 to 1960, when the number code was in use. I need to know how the
each of the BMT lines operated in those years:
(1) Brighton Local & Express
(2) 4th Avenue Local
(3) West End Local & Express
(4) Sea Beach Express
(5) Culver Local & Express
(6) 5th Avenue
(7) Franklin Avenue-Brighton Local
(8) Astoria Local
(9) Flushing Local & Express
(10) Myrtle Avenue-Chambers Street Express
(11) Myrtle Avenue Local
(12) Lexington Avenue Local
(13) 14th Street-Fulton Street Local & Express
(14) Broadway-Brooklyn Local
(15) Jamaica Local & Express
(16) 14th Street-Canarsie Local & Express
One more thing, I need to know what are the terminals for the each of the lines in those days.
James S. Li
There has been much speculation on SubTalk over the past year as to where the R-142s would go when they arrive. Following is an excerpt from a story that ran on WCBS Newsradio-88 this morning. The bottom line is we still don't know!
--- New subway trains are coming to New York City but the transit authority says there is no decision on where they will be rolling. An earlier report that the trains would be on the Number Seven Line from Times Square to Flushing Queens is premature.
Transit spokesman Al O'Leary says the Number Seven Line has some of the oldest cars in the subway fleet, and would be likely candidates for replacement. But it's not known if that line will get the new cars.
The new subway cars will feature electronic door systems, more comfortable seats, better lights, information screens and an improved public-address system.
[ Transit spokesman Al O'Leary says the Number Seven Line has some of
the oldest cars in the subway fleet, and would be likely candidates
for replacement. But it's not known if that line will get the new
cars. ]
Of course, using qualifications like "some of" makes the statement hard to argue with, but the mainline R26,28,29's are older.
But, weren't the flushing cars the first to get rebuilt? If you use the "rebuild" age, they may be the oldest..
They do seem to be in worse shape than the mainline cars.
Politically, it would be best to spread them around a bit, like when the first A/C cars were brought into service. Whatever they do, I think they will want to do something on ther flushing line, though.
Maybe a fair and manageable solution would be to put the R142's on the mainlines, and move R62(A)'s over to the flushing line.
I was thinking about this last week, when I enjoyed my ride on the 7 line. From the rail fan perspective, it would be a shame to take the Redbirds off that line and replace them with the 62s, especially if they have their full-width cabs implemented on the head end. The rail fan view (and other sensations!) from the front of a 'bird on the Flushing Line can't be beat!
The 7 wouldn't be the 7 without those worlds fair cars!!!
It was the 7 before the World's Fair Cars. Oh by the way, what happened to the 1989 World's Fair? There was one in 1939, then 1964, twenty-five years later, but no '89 fair!
Well, there was no 1914 World's Fair either, so I guess the every-25-years-thing doesn't work unless Robert Moses is involved with the city and state government. And that's not likely to happen again for a while.
There has been, but it's called a 'World's Fair' so it's been in other places. I can remember Vancouver BC and New Orleans.
-Hank
Where and when was the latest? How often are they held? When was the first? What other cities have had multiple fairs?
Chicago had the Columbian Exposition in 1892, and the Century of Progress Expo in 1933.
Chicago's Columbian Exposition was actually held in 1893, one year after the 400th anniversary - seems they didn't do a very good job of advance planning.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's also a bit ironic that -- if you believe the Straphanger's Campaign survey -- the Flushing Line, with some of the oldest cars in the system, was rated the best line overall.
If it wasn't for the rust problem, it sounds like they should keep the Redbirds, and dump some of the other equipment (How about an R-44 vs. R-68 demolition derby as part of the subway's 95th anniversary in October?)
Now, THAT would be something! I would even pay admission for something like that. Then for the main event, they could throw in a BMT standard into the mix. It would pulverize the competition and emerge unscathed.
And for good measure, bringing up the "rear end" brigade, would be a couple of sets of D-Type Triplexes, loaded down with a couple of tons of cement bags, pallets of tiles, rails, etc. each. I can just hear 'em go CRUNCH! (Remember the 1926 Pressed_Steel MU Coach vs. 1971 St. Louis Car Bilevel incident of Oct. 30, 1972, on the Illinois Central RR in Chicago? OUCH!!! [I am not trying to make light of this unfortunate accident; there was a great loss of life, mostly if not all in the Bilevel] )
Wayne
You wouldn't have to load the Triplexes down; they're heavy enough all by themselves. One unloaded Triplex would put a major hurt on an R-44 or R-68 or any car, for that matter. I do remember the IC incident; there is a photo in the 1973 Americana Annual, and even Readers Digest wrote about it. There were two young women pinned beneath the wreckage, and everything needed to be pulled and peeled away before they could be rescued. Both survived. The old South Shore cars were also 1926 vintage and were just as massive as those old IC coaches.
I was working messenger service in NYC back then. On Oct. 31, I made my way to Times Square to pick up the Chicago Tribune from the Out-of-Town newsstand (wonder if it's still there). The front-page picture said it all. The first coach of the 1926-vintage train (which was travelling at 45MPH+) had plowed forty feet through the rear of the Bilevel and was sitting up at an angle amid the wreckage, largely unscathed. Another photo in the NY Times a day or so later showed the two cars pulled apart, the MU re-railed and sporting a broken cab and storm door window and a few front-end dents (they DID cut through its roof), the rear two-thirds of the Bilevel was gone. I wonder what one of those monsters weighed in at. A BMT Standard weighs 49 Tons.
Not sure of a set of Triplexes. Probably weighs 60 tons or more a set.
Wayne
A Triplex unit weighed in at 105-106 tons. Don't forget - one Triplex, at 137 feet, was the service equivalent of two BMT standards at 67 feet apiece.
The old South Shore cars weighed 60 tons as delivered. During and after WWII, many were lengthened to 78 feet and in the process, gained an additional 15-17 tons. I would imagine the 1926 IC cars were in that same weight class.
A standard North Shore interurban car weighed about 50 tons.
Thanks for the information! The frying-pan thin walls of the Bilevel "Highliner" was obviously no match for 60-plus tons of "Pressed Steel" - it fell apart like tissue paper.
I wonder if Metra or whatever is running the old IC service still has any of those St.Louis car Bilevels (the ones involved in the wreck) in service.
Wayne
The highliners are, AFIK, still in service - I want to ride one, but the thought does make me nervous - I think it was later found that they don't do well in any sort of accidents..
And they DON'T! A few years later there was a minor accident, at low speed, which resulted in one getting all torn up. Ride if you wish, but stay in the centre of the train. They look pretty, but from what I've seen, they can't hold up in a crash. If they're still rolling, they must be doing OK mechanically, approaching 30 years of service.
I still wonder if any of those old Pressed Steel coaches are still floating around anywhere. They looked mean enough to take out a BMT Standard.
Wayne
I'd say that would be a pretty fair fight. Know what would be even better? An IC coach going one-on-one with an old South Shore coach. Ka-booooommmmm! Like those two Triplexes at Stillwell Ave. on June 19, 1955. Oh, and Fred, sorry to say this, but they were Sea Beach expresses.
{Maybe a fair and manageable solution would be to
put the R142's on the mainlines, and move R62(A)'s
over to the flushing line.}
Perhaps the R142 should replace the R62's on the 4 and 6 and those cars transferred to the 7 line. Then everyone can say that they are getting "new cars"
One question though: are the R62's single car units
like the R68's, or are they coupled together in
bunches? If so, then the logical choice is to put
the R62's on the 7, so
they can finally have 11 completley A/C'd cars. The
R142's are supposed to be linked into 5 car
segments, making 11 car trains mathematically
impossible.
Once the R-142 order is delivered, it would seem unfair and illogical to have all redbirds on the #7 and all R-62/62A and R-142 equipment on the Lex and 7th lines. What seems logical is that whatever equipment besides redbirds winds up on the #7, it should be the same equipment as on the #3. That way, such equipment can be broken down into 5-car sets (for use on the #3 and #7) and 4-car sets for use on the #3 and 6-car sets for use on the #7. All other IRT equipment can then be in 5-car sets for all the other lines (other than the remaining redbirds). This would probably eliminate the need to retain any post-redbird IRT cars in single-car configuration, other than on the Times Square Shuttle.
The R142 are coming in several different configurations, including 4, 6 and 3-car sets. Check the Bombardier website, and the archive, because I've posted all this info several times before.
-Hank
will the r62-62A or 142s that end up on the Flushing line be retrofitted with tripcocks on both sides of the cars?
The #7 line is the best in the system, and I feel it deserves the
R-142 cars. What's leftover should be distributed to the other IRT
lines. Why should the passengers who ride this line to Shea, Flushing
Meadows Park, and the tennis stadium be treated to used R-62?
According to highly placed sources at Jay St (no, I have been asked not to name names), the 2 and the 5 will be the first lines to see R-142s operate in service. The 7 may get some 142s, but will likely get 62s from Lexington Ave.
The new shipments are to replace the redbirds which in my opinion as a commuter, are terrible. The announcements aren't good, when they are, they are to loud, there are no chimes when the doors close, and there are occaisonal times when the lights go out. As a railfan, I would hate to see them go. The newer cars all no railfan window or like on the R62 and R62A with the full width cabs, you get a better view of the speedometer than the tracks.
From an operating POV, I would rather have doors that don't go ding-dong. All the ding-dong tone is good for is giving the ding-dongs a warning of when to stick some body part in the closing door.
From an operating POV, I would rather have doors that don't go ding-dong. All the ding-dong tone is good for is giving the ding-dongs a
warning of when to stick some body part in the closing door.
I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but you probably won't here a ding-dong anymore. You'll probably here a voice saying "Please watch the closing doors" once or twice, followed by the "bee-be-bee" door closing sound like the R110A. -Nick
It's that bee-be-bee sound that has got to go. I ALREADY tell them to "Stand clear of the closing doors, please". A lot of riders take this to mean they have another minute or so to get to the doorway they want. In the last five days (Friday - Tuesday), I left behind about 20 people at Ditmars Blvd who either a:didn't get on after the announcement or b: chose that time to jump off one car and make a mad dash for the next one. Unfortunately, during the rush hours, I will NOT reopen to let them on. (In all honesty, its really funny watching them as the train pulls out)
I ALREADY tell them to "Stand clear of the closing doors, please".
True, you do this now...but you may not have to with the R142, if it's like the R110A messages. -Nick
Maybe they'll install the same chipset they retrofit into the Washington DC Metro Cars. It announces "Doors Opening", "Doors Closing", (and if someone blocks "Please Stand Clear of the Doors"),
followed by a classic D#->B "Ding-Dong", as currently exists on all R44-and-up cars. I agree - the -bee-bee-bee- is AWFUL. So was the "Ping-Ping" in the DC Breda cars, which, thankfully, is now history.
Wayne
It doesn't need to be a source too high placed to figure that one out. East 180th St shop was rebuilt to accommodate the R-142s.
What changes were needed at E 180th to accommodate the R-142s?
The entire shop was demolished and rebuilt over the past few years. I'd say they were upgrading the facilities for the new cars. They also rebuilt the entire Unionport storage area.
The two single most important changes were:
Facilities for removing and installing the HVAC in the roof of the cars.
Fiber optic cables for the computers that will record warranty and maintenance data and assist in training and troubleshooting.
Other improvements included air conditioning and 20th cenntury employee facilities.
so its settled then. since the 180th street yard was built to accomodate the new cars guess where the new cars will run...
hint- its not the flushing line
I dont think that yard was designed to hold 1080 new cars. I doubt this discussion will be setled
180th Street is being set up to be the R142's Maintenance Facility. Of course all 1080 (or 1490, if the options are exercised) won't fit there. For that, you have Union-Port, Wakefield, Pelham, and maybe even Livonia and/or Lenox. AND if some of these make their way over to the #1 line, 240th Street.
Wayne
what about the new track being laid down between Morris Park and Dyre Ave. New Track is be put down between Y1 & Y2 from north of Morris Park to Dyre why not layup the new equipment there?
Because it becomes an easy target for vandalism.
-Hank
thats really sad. in the city people will steal anything from copper wire from street lights to subway ads. can you imagine people stripping down a subway car like juvenile delinquents strip down stolen cars?
figure delivery will probably be 5/10 cars a month shouldn't occupy too much track space. who's to say the new cars will stay on layup tracks betw 180 and Dyre?
Well, I hear the 142's may end up on the #7 line according to a newspaper article I read last week. Does anyone actually know what they look like? I heard they were pretty horrendous looking. I'm also sure that they will have a lot of electrical problems with them. It's really a shame that the Redbirds are so rotten and decrepit. However, I got the chance to ride a Redbird on the #2 line from Gun Hill Rd. to East 180th Street and the Redbirds were doing a good 50+ mph down the incline between Burke Ave. & Pelham Pkwy.
I think your Nom-de-plume needs a little work, my friend. It's totally inappropriate here.
Sounds like my announcements on the Culver line this week.
At Kings Highway: "Coney Island bound F,U is next"
At Av. X : "Manhattan bound F, U is next"
that LOSER was just mad that their line wont be getting the new cars... a matter that is totally out of their hands... some people just take themselves too seriously...
And no railfan windows...
Everybody wants the new cars on their line and through their neighborhood. I bet people on the showcase line aka broadway local want the new cars. The fairest decision would be to give the lines with the oldest cars to get the new ones. Why should the 1,3,9 or 4 & 6 for that matter even see new cars? they already have "new" cars. The 2,5 and 7 should get the new cars. maybe they should just build a track link to the flushing line from the IRT to end all this arguing. Flushing riders will scream bloody murder if they dont get new cars.
ps. i'll bet money that something will go wrong with the 142s and the rebirds will be resurrected at some point in the next century.
From my point of view it APPEARS that the 2/5 lines will get the R142's first since the E 180th street shops were demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. The shop is complete and will likely be the home base for the new equipment. Word had it that since the R62 was already tested on the #7 line, Corona yard is already prepared to maintain these cars. R142 must go I heard 11 months of scrutiny by the shops car inspectors before it is accepted. If any retooling occurs then the process starts all over for another 11 months or something like that...
Okay, may as well put my two cents into this: I agree that the 2 and 5 lines should get the R142's first, and the rest should be given to the 4 and 6. The R62's will do fine on the 7, since they were on there for a short time during a redbird re-build in the mid 80s. Also, the 7 is such a short line too, and it seems to be mostly jammed only during rush hours (for the most part with a few exceptions) while the 4 and 6 are almost always jammed, and there is no second avenue subway in the near future. I'd much rather have computerized signs and voices on the more crowded trains.
As for the redbirds being retired, it's a shame....but their time has to come eventually. Unfortunatly, while they run fine, they are rotting, and many make an awful squeeking sound when they brake. But I will definitely miss the railfan windows. -Nick
I do not know about the R142 but from past history the Lo-V cars spent their last years on the East Side while the West Side lines had new cars. I also noticed that when the 1964 Fair brought new cars to the 7, the old 7 line cars went to the main line IRT.
The R62 cars ran first on the West Side Lines (and replaced the cars that replaced the Lo-V cars and the Hi-V cars)
Therefore, if the past holds true:
The new cars will go the 1,2,3 lines and the "old" R62 will go to the 4,5,6 and maybe the 7. Under this **theory**, any remaining redbirds would run on the 4,5,6.
**disclaimer- this post is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
In my opinion because Flushing's car requirements are over 400 cars and because Flushing maintains both GE and Worstinghouse electric equipment they would be a likely candidate to receive mainline R-62 and R-62a cars. The GE SCM group boxes could be hacked off the departing R36 cars and utilized on the existing Westinghouse R62s to make them reliable. It would be cheaper than going out to the ECAM that the R-68s are supposed to. After all if you remember the scrapped R-30s had their's removed before their farewell voyage to South Brooklyn. By the way anyone know how our favorite R-68 is doing after the marshmallows were toasted?
Does anyone know if the 1999 MTH subway car sets are available yet?
Also, can you buy them at a local model railroad/hobby shop w/o first placing an order? (I seem to recall last year that these train sets were not keep 'in stock', but required a deposit before the dealer ordered them from the company).
Doug aka BMTman
I can find out for you. I will ask my dealer freind.
This set was available at Trainworld under the F at Ditmas without special order. I don't know if it still is.
I purchased a set at Trainworld for myself as an Xmas gift. It runs like a dream..
There not out yet. =(
Too bad, I think I'll pick up a set, paint em, and run them as H&M/PATH trains.
If the information I have is correct, the 1999 subway car sets from MTH will not even be on the market until October. From what I have been told they will be the same as the 1998 set but without the blue stripe. They are supposed to be making a two car add-on for the 1998 set with the blue stripe as well (you can create a six car train with this). The two car add-on set will be available in September 1999. The 1998 set occasionally turns up at train shows but at secondary market prices.
Karl B
The info you have given is correct as I know it. Aside from the lack of the blue stripe, the 1999 cars will be lettered as 'E' trains rather than 'D's. I have 2 sets on order although I don't know what I'll do with them since I model in N gauge.
To Karl & Steve: thanks for the info. I too model in a scale other than the MTH sets (HO to be precise), but plan on using them solely as 'display models' on top of my bookcase (because of this I am only interested in the 1998 add-on cars w/blue striping).
Doug aka BMTman
THEY WILL BE OUT DURING THE LAST 1/4 OF 1999. I ORDERED SIX SETS AT TRAINWORLD IN DEC. I TRIED TO ORDER MORE AND THEY SAID THAT HEY STOPPED TAKING ORDERS ON THEM.
I know subway trains run over the Manhattan Bridge and the Williamsburg Bridge, but I've seen train tracks in old photos on the Brooklyn Bridge. I know this is not so anymore, but I was wondering what trains ran over the Brooklyn Bridge and when this traffic ceased.
Anybody out there with an answer?
Technically speaking, no subway ever ran across the Brooklyn Bridge. But some of the BRT/BMT elevated lines did and they terminated at an elevated station at Park Row. If I remember right, before the turn of the century, cable-powered shuttle trains crossed the bridge. With the advent of electric traction, through service began early in the century.
For sure, I can tell you that the Brighton Line ran over the bridge, starting at Park Row, then Sands Street, Brook