It's been a few years now since the signals on the entire stretch of elevated tracks on the J/Z line have been replaced. I'm wondering if the work being done on the WillyB will also include signal replacement along the stretch of tracks on the bridgespan. If so, it'll be good to up the speed a bit for trains crossing the bridge.
-GarfieldA
It has to, as the entire support structure is being replaced. Whether it leads to improvements is another matter entirely.
-Hank
The "WillyB" is a clever name for the Williamsburg Bridge. Union Switch & Signal has the contract to resignal the WillyB. It will totally resignaled on the Bridge. I don't know what is being done with GT signals however, I will get a copy of the control lines from US & S. I will let you know.
I suspect that the Williamsburg Bridge signals are still original, or were replaced with similar ones at some point. At any rate, they were geared, so to speak, to the BMT standards, whose acceleration and braking rates were vastly different from today's equipment.
As for speed, I'd love to see speeds come back up to at least 40 mph from the present 35, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I wonder why there is a new bagged not in service signal on J1 track on the WillyB between J1 116 & J1 118?
Well, yesterday, I was finally able to take the long awaited trip to NYC. And with yesterday's crummy weather, the subway was the only way to get around.
Our trip began from the IND Penn Station/34th St stop. Between the three FunPasses bought at first, only mine worked every time( the others, for my son and his friend, malfunctioned later).
We caught a 'C' train of R-38's to 72nd St(which was all but abandoned)and then off to the72ndSt.stationat theBroadway IRT.
On the way there and in the station, people kept asking me how to get toTimes Square(this was happening all day,what happened there?)
At 72nd, the first FunPass failure. My son's friend went to use his and it wouldn't register( it was more than18 minutes since it was used last)and had to get some information from the station attendant. While there, a man said he could sell him a box of FunPasses for $10(the first of two flask-brandishing folks we encountered).
Briskly sweeping him away and paying the fare, we got down to the platform and got a #2 train of Redbirds but of course it was stuck. We caught the next #1.
After breakfast at Tom's(the Seinfeld diner), we took the 'C' down to Times Square( the downtown #1 didn't stop at 110th yesterday).
After navigating the complex maze(and seeing the R-110B on the 'A' and odd signs in the 8th-7th Avenue walkway["Leave the Pain"..."Do it again"]) we handled business, I bought some film, and we took a train of Slant-40's on the 'N' to the WTC(there was no 'R' and no trains north of 57/7th).
After the ride, we walked around downtown a bit( yes, in the rain), took the #4 and #6 to Grand Central and the shuttle toTimes Square.
Later, I was able to ride to 21 St. On the ride to Queens I noticed after I believe Roosevelt Island what looked like a connecting tunnel. Does anyone know what that was?
At the station we got out to see a bit of Queens, and came back.Then the second flask-wielding loudmouth came at us.
We got on theManhattan-bound platform,butallthetrainscametotheQueens-boundplatform.The man started yelling at screaming at us("That's the wrong platform, you idiots! Get your a**es over here!").
Once we finally got back to Manhattan, we got another 'N'(we got 'N's of Slant-40's, 46's and 68's)and proceeded home.
The trip would have been better minus the rain.
The line which goes to Roosevelt Island and 21st-Queensbridge will eventually be tied into the IND Queens line. The connector is presently under construction.
Apparently the 63rd St. shuttle was still in operation, using the Queens-bound track only. Unless anything has changed, R-32s are being used.
As to how to get to Times Square from 72nd and Broadway, that's a piece of cake: any southbound train will do. If you're an express addict like myself, it's the 2 or 3. Nice, fast run, too. What happened to those poor Redbirds on the 2?
I remember being in the city on a rainy Saturday in 1979. My sister and I ended up taking numerous one-stop subway rides that day, at 50 cents a pop.
On Saturday, I took a #2 ofall redbirds(and a #6-but it ran express from Union Square to Grand Central-and what was up with that descent after Union Square?)
What descent?
I'm trying to get hold of a 1972 NY subway map -- that's the one that had a modern style and the subway lines bore only a vague correlation with the actual lines they represented. Please let me know if you've got one in decent condition and how much you'd like for it. Thanks.
-AT
I have one. Monday, 7/31/72. It was a new style map. It should be in brand new condition.
Who keeps using these names from "The Simpsons"??:):)
Your giant squishee is making a mockery of our selve serve policy!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=74644158
Use the above link to Ebay.com. You will find the map up for auction. Bid is currently $4.99.
All this recent talk about subway movies ... it would be cool if each of the last several decades in the subway's life could be summed up with taglines (single-sentence descriptions). How about these:
The 1950s - Glory Years.
The 1960s - Cracks in the Foundation.
The 1970s - Descent into Hell.
The 1980s - Slow Climb to Daylight.
The 1990s - Stability ... or Stagnation?
I don't think I'd characterize the 1950s as "Glory Years" for the subway--that was the time the City got forced into surrendering control of its transit system to the TA, probably the worst thing that has ever happened to public transportation in New York City. The first results of the takeover were to cancel the citizens' votes in favor of the bond issue to build the Second Avenue subway (though the DeKalb/Chrystie part did get done years later), the Nostrand Avenue extension, rebuilding of the 42nd Street Shuttle, other improvements, and to begin steady cutting of non-rush hour expresses all over the City. We could also include the loss of the last trolley lines in Brooklyn and the trolley coaches a bit later. There were positive things like the opening of Rockaway, maybe the Culver recapture, and the 60th Street-Queens Boulevard connection, but those were left-over City projects. The only positive thing the TA ever on its own, IMHO, was to reduce the midnight BMT headways to 20 minutes.
The mid- to late-1940s (despite the loss of all the el lines) had a real optimism, despite what Robert Moses did to kill extensions to the airports and elsewhere. There were real plans to continue expansion, and there was finally some imagination in the appearance of new cars--the R-10s, R-12s, R-14s, R-15s, and the experimental R-11s.
The City never did anything as dumb as what we've seen with the construction of the 63rd Street tunnel, built with no real idea of what it was supposed to do.
Bring back the Board of Transportation (not under this mayor, though)!
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
You may be right about the 1950s and the subway. I suppose the first signs of decline were visible in that decade, although things wouldn't get really bad for some time.
There seems to be a sense that the 1950s were "Glory Years" for the city in general - indeed, for the entire country. Whether that's really true is another matter, it was before my time so I can't speak from experience.
By the way, speaking of decades, depending on when the R-142 and R-143 cars are delivered, it looks as if the 1990s will be the first decade in which there were NO new car types placed in service :-(
What is your favorite subway line? My favorite subway line is the "A". Not only because it is the longest, but the vast terrain and track work that this line run on. Duke Ellington pick the right train for his song.
It's the 4 & 5 for me. I just love those Lex Ave express runs, even though there not as much fun these days. The D used to be at the top of my list in the days when it was the Brighton Express.
Wayne
My favorite line to ride is the No.5 Line during the morning Rush Hour like about 6:30 AM its a fast ride. I did a 3 tripper out of Dyre. But I Like the ride from E 238 to Flatbush. I just don't like oking a train in the Yard at 5:00 AM. My favorite line to work is the No.6 because you don't know what train your going to take out. It could be a R 29 R 33 R 36WF or R 62 and the supervisers are great.
My favorite is, and always be the "A" train.
Why?? I play a song by Billy Joel "The Night Is Still Young", when I get to the Rockaway bridges.
With regards,
Stuart D. "Pelham 1:23" Guberman
My favorite is the D because it goes to fun places in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx (Prospect Park, the Village, and Yankee Stadium for example). It gives a beautiful view of Manhattan from the Manhattan Bridge and of the Atlantic Ocean and Coney Island. It's a 24 hour express in Manhattan (is it the only one?) and it's rapped about by the Beastie Boys.
At this time the D and #2 are the only 24 hour expresses. I'm guessing the E train will become a 24 hours express again when the construction around QP is completed???
In Queens, perhaps. The E has never run express 24/7 in Manhattan; it used to during rush hours when it went out to Brooklyn.
Don't get me started on the E. That's all I'm going to say on that.
I didn't realize we were talking about 24 hour expresses in Manhattan. I thought it was 24 hour expresses period. That's what I was referring to (Queens), especially since the E train express service in Manhattan ended over 20 years ago.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, I would imagine we'll see a return to 24/7 express operation for the E in Queens - at least between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave.
2 is the other 24 hour express.
2 is the other 24 hour express. Besides the 4 train is always in rap songs too, if you want to go there.....
My favorite Subway Line is because it go fast on Rush Hour and i would never take the Express like and because it all way back up at lexington ave express line during rush hour.
You have a point there: locals zoom along for the most part while expresses creep along in some places. Even so, I'm still a diehard express addict, and will not take a local unless I have to.
My favorite line is the .
It is serpentine, with lots of sharp curves, above and below ground.
It has several unusual stations (Morgan, Wilson, Broadway Junction, Atlantic, East 105).
It has Dual Contracts, Contract 3, IND, BRT and modern architectures.
It has some of the most beautiful mosaics found anywhere in the system.
AND -
It runs six full consists of classic Slant R40s.
It has an overall good subway "feel" to it.
Wayne
... And ....
It's the subject of the next tour offered by the NY Transit Museum this coming weekend.
--Mark
Unfortunately, it is sold out, so I am told. I would have loved to have gone.
Wayne
The feeling is mutual. The A has been my favorite line ever since September of 1967; the D comes in second. The real heyday for the A was when the immortal R-10s thundered their way along that route. Nothing could top a jaunt up CPW on a A train of rip-roaring R-10s. IMHO, the departure of the R-10s could only be compared to the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn.
As most Subtalkers know, my Jeep's license plates say 8AVEXP in honor of the A line. Someone finally got the connection with New York a couple of months ago.
Gentlemen (and any ladies looking in) my vote for best line believe it or not goes to the 5 in the IRT. An express run through Brooklyn,express up the east side, express to East 180 in the PM rush and then the long stretches between stations up to Dyre make that seem like express too.
In the B Division, how about the Q. Express all the way. And there is nothing like coming down the hill into Newkirk. That can put hair on your chest.
The Brighton line is definitely my favorite express run. It is the only 4 track express run outside. It maybe a pain to the E.16 neighborhood. But as mentioned earlier, where else can you see all four trains running at the same time above ground?
[The Brighton line is definitely my favorite express run. It is the only 4 track express run outside]
I enjoy that express run as well except that the Q really doesn't go very fast compared to the Lex Expresses. I prefer speed over beauty when it comes to express trains.
While that may be true to some extent, you have to remember that any sort of run in a confined space such as a tunnel will always seem faster than a run in an open space at the same speed. Now, the dash out to the Rockaway line may be an exception, at least back in the days of the R-10s on the A.
Anyway, the slant R-40s on the Q are certainly not slowpokes.
Just for the record, I took a ride on the upper Lexington last fall to experience the highly-touted express run, and was sorely disappointed. None of the trains I took exceeded 30 mph.
[my vote for best line believe it or not goes to the 5]
[In the B Division, how about the Q]
Subway lines that are not 24 hours cannot be the best line. A 24 hour run is a necessary requirement for a line to be considered the best.
My favourite line? The J between Broad St and Jamaica Center. Why? Historical significance, the decrepit Chambers Street station, the jaunt over the Willie B, the rocky elevated ride through Brooklyn & Queens, the turn of the century stations east of Broadway / East New York, the interchange with the M at Myrtle Ave and that massive interchange and the ENY yard at Broadway/Easy New York.
My favourite used to be the West End Line but now with the R-68s supplying service, phooey!
--Mark
[My favourite line? The J between Broad St and Jamaica Center. Why? Historical significance, the decrepit Chambers Street station, the jaunt over the Willie B, the rocky elevated ride through Brooklyn & Queens, the turn of the century stations east of Broadway / East New York, the interchange with the M at Myrtle Ave and that massive interchange and the ENY yard at Broadway/Easy New York.]
Hear, hear, I like the J too! And don't forget the descent into the new (in subway terms) tunnel at the line's eastern end.
When was track 2 on the Times Square Shuutle used? Why was it abandoned and are parts of this track still found in the tunnel?
You must be new to this site. The Times Square Shuttle is a remnant of the original 1904 subway line. When the lines were rearranged in 1918, following additional construction, this piece of the original line was converted into the shuttle you see today. There is much additional information about the history of the subway - when lines were constructed, re-routed, etc. - on this site; I recommend you take the time to read the entire site, beginning with the history section. You will find it well worth your time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although Track 2 is no longer in use, the rails are still in place along most of the trackway.
I am looking for a computer font (preferably TrueType) that emulates the style of station signs (wall signs, too) that were built during the 1930's- 1960's.
If anyone out there can accomodate me, please respond, and indicate where I can acquire the font.
Thank You
Stuart D. "Pelham 1:23" Guberman
Should the No.1/9 Skip Stops stay or go. Well it all depends on how you talk to. If you talk to a Rider at 242 St or 231 St they would agree with it. If you talk to someone at 225 St and Dickman St witch have bad crowd conditions they Dislike it. You see a half empty train pass you stop. If you talk to the Train Crews there mixed. We all agree that you save no time but there are some stops on the No 1 Line crews hate to stop at. I hate Dickman because its too packed but so if I run a No.9 its alittle less crawded. But I don't like 145 St because of the Homeless. Know some people say you save 5 mins. Yah if you violare the rulebook. Your suppose to leave at 15 MPH. I enter and leave at 10 MPH. I got in trouble once for flying passed 225 St. So I go slower.
Got to go I will complete this in 20 Mins.
I will rewite the last few lines.
Now some poeple say they save 5 Mins. You can if you violate the rulebook. Your suppose to leave the station at 15 MPH if your skiping it. I was passed 225 ST at 25 MPH and the TSS confronted me so I enter and leave all skiped stations at 10 MPH. Now when we have trains bunched up together its not really bad because the trains keep moving. Know there was a Dispachor that was known to allow 3 No.9 trains to go back to back. I found myself to be the 3rd No.9 lots of times. I would then make all stops. That was my own desision. The tower never ordered me to make all stops. I wrote a G2 to the affect and hasn't happened since.(A G2 is a written Report that goes to your Supervisers)
When I suggested that the skip-stop was not such a splendid idea because it only saves a few minutes, I meant it as a strictly operational point of view. I know of plenty of places around the system that should be skip stopped permanently because of the clientel such as the skels and crackheads.
You'd love Chicago's skip-stop service, at least the one I'm familiar with. Trains do not slow down when they skip a station; they just keep right on going without so much as a beep-beep, beep-beep. In fact, I've never heard a Chicago L train honk for anything; I'm not even sure if those trains have horns at all.
If we didn't have to slow up Skip Stop might be very affective in NYC.
Yes your right I would enjoy Chicago. I never been there.
Being a South Bend native, I used to go to Chicago quite often; however, it wasn't until two weeks before we moved to Jersey that I rode the L for the first tme. In general, the trains run faster there than in New York, especially in the subway portions. And then there's the noise! If you thought the R-10s were loud, that's nothing compared to a subway run in Chicago. You find yourself holding your ears.
In regards to Chicago trains skipping stations at speed......the Ta has a task force working on increasing the speed of trains bypassing stations. I'm sure it will have to modify the signals entereing stations which are now for the most part yellow (because the station car stop marker is considered the red).
Has anyone seen the new advertising poster (I saw one on the PATH) for the Knicks? It's a sort of photo montage of various New York things. One of the photos is an R1-9 type "D" train. I'm wondering if the picture came from this site but haven't gotten a memorable enough look. (Not that I care too much, but it would be cool if it could be identified :-)
-Dave
I've seen those ads on the LIRR. It actually puzzles me why the ad agency used a picture of a 1930s-vintage subway when the taxis shown in the ad are modern types. Why not use a contemporary subway - or old Checker cabs?
During the Grammys, I saw (twice) a new ad for SONY - and, lo and behold, there was R42 #4919! Neat special effects inside the car
and a shot of it pulling away (couldn't make out the station).
I thought it was a Slant at first (noting the grab bar behind the cab)
but next time I saw the unit number, and that's consistent - the NYCT R42 GOH cars (4840-4949) have the R40 style grab bars behind the cabs.
Wayne
Wayne, I just thought I'd throw this in for good measure:
While riding home last night on my usual 6:06 M-1 I saw this poster screaming that "The Knicks are back!" (making reference to the end of the strike). It had a b-ball in the center with different images of the city around it. One of those images was a subway car -- but not one we have seen in YEARS! They used an R-1 type! I thought it pretty weird, but then realized that whomever made the poster probably got the image from some generic "clip-art" company that only had vintage cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Whats your favorite Term. Mind would have to be Stillwell on the BMT.For the IRT I would have to pick 148 ST Lenox Term. Because of the Yard being next to the station and a great view of Yankee Stadium across the Harlem River.
(Hmm, maybe the Translator has a point. I did delete that thread about grammar because I thought it was pretty rude but I'm sure we could all spend a second proof-reading before we hit Submit. It would lend a more professional atmosphere to the board, I do agree... I try not to say anything but as a once-upon-a-time English major it's hard :-)
Ok It looks like a messed up with the topic. This will be my last post.
Well you say its your last post. Why because maybe you feel your being picked on for your Grammer. Its not perfict but its readable.(I'm not that good either). But you are informitive. So come back soon. Dave Pirmann did't mean what he said in a bad way. I don't realy post much I just read them but I had to respond to this.
I did mention that I was not going to post hear anymore because of all the fuss over my Grammer. Well I reseived lot of email telling my to come back and how i'm a good conributer. Thank you all I can't let my supporters down. Specal Thanks to Chris,Joe and Simon.
I will try to Improve on my grammer.
Most of the people who say anything about your grammar are doing it for your benefit, not to pick on you.
There are some rude posters and Dave was absolutely right to delete them.
We know that you'll try and we'll all try to be a little more understanding.
Nice to have you back with us, David. Your posts are very informative! One of the great things about SubTalk is that it allows us "enthusiasts" to interact with the professionals who make the system work every day. I know I've learned a tremendous amount, and it helps my appreciation for what is in my opinion the greatest mass transit system in the world.
When I left New York in the late 50's after spending most of my young life in the shadow of the Jamaica Line on Crescent Street, I was still wondering what the purpose was of the third track. In those days there was a center track on Crescent Street with access switches from both mains in the vicinity of Campus Place. This third track seemed to deteriorate as it went up Crescent Street toward Jamaica Avenue. It eventually came to a dead end with a small bumper at end of track. I never saw this track used except on a rare occasion when a short work train would run in there from ENY and then go back out to ENY. Maps at this site would indicate that there are now switches on this track on the Jamaica Avenue end as well as the Fulton Street end. Have they found a use for this track in the almost forty years that I have been gone? I am sort of curious.
Karl: If your referring to the center track between Crescent St and Cypress it was used during the sixties at least to turn back pm rush #14 Bway-Bklyn Lcls from Canal Street, this procedure lasted until July 1968 when the KK began service to 168 St-Jamaica. The center track is now connected at both ends to both tracks so it can function as a passing siding for trains in either direction.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks again Larry,Redbird, I was indeed referring to the middle track, I guess my use of the word third track wasn't the best choice. I think that I must have left just before all of the changes began. In my time the center track stood idle most of the time. I often wondered if the track had been idle since this had been the end of the line back in the teens.
Regards, Karl B
Karl: Please forgive me if I sounded pedantic on that last post,I'm sure either third or center track are equally applicable.Its seems that the favored terminals for the #14 was Atlantic or Canarsie, I don't think that there would have been much need for the #14's to go to Crescent prior to 1950 since the #12 Lexington provided service to 111 St in the rush. There does seems to be rush service by #14 trains to Crescent after that up until 1959 when the skip-stop service went into effect. By 1962 or a little earlier only four(+/-)pm rush round trips operated btwn Canal and Crescent.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
A more "recent" use of the middle track is to move a disable train out of the way of regular service. Since the line is really two tracked between Jamaica Center and Eastern Pkwy, that's the only area where a disabled train could go. This is the same reason why the switch just south of Brooklyn Bridge / City Hall downtown local platform was re-instituted. If there's a disabled train on the Lexington Ave line, there's no place to put it except at that spot until after the rush hours.
A third track has been installed on the Dyre Ave line for testing the R-142s. I also hear it will remain after testing because, like the Jamaica El, there's no way to bypass a disabled train on the Dyre Ave portion of the 5 line.
--Mark
Does anyone know how long the new R143's are? Some say they will be 67' and others say 60'. Which is it?
The R-143s will be absolutely, positively, definitely, no-doubt-about-it 60-footers. They will be arranged in 4-car sets (A-B-B-A). There was talk of making them 67-footers a la the R-110s, but that died early in the design process.
David
A belated thanks for that information!
Originally, the R110B, the horrible prototype for the really nice R-143 was 67 feet, right? There are still R-110 signs on some stations on the A line, telling the conductor where the doors should line up.
They also existed on the Brighton line for service on the D train, although I do not know of a revenue service run of R110B's on the D line.
I think that they were also on the culver... I didnt see that, but i heard about it
I'm going to guess that they were on the Brighton line with plans to use the 110B for a few Baseball Specials.
"Originally, the R110B, the horrible prototype for the really nice R-143 was 67 feet, right?"
What was so horrible about it? Among other things, its destination sign retained the R42-44-46-68 presentation, which is better than what the R143 sports now.
Also, which would have been advantageous to towers and supervisors, above the bullet the call letters of the train, which I think should have been the #1 feature carried over to the 141/143. I wonder why it wasn't.
Oops, first of all that should be 142, not 141, obviously.
Another great thing about that display, it told me what train I wanted to take home veryday from school, once I realized that "A1533" meant it was the 1533 out of 207th.
yeah, 4 years belated!
The R143's are not new and they are 60' long.
"The R143's are not new and they are 60' long. "
Any cars not passing their first birthday (delivery day) can be considered new. Some R143's still qualify.
I meant first anniversary of delivery day.
That's True!
The post was made way back in 1999. At that time, they were quite new (in fact so new, they weren't even in service yet!).
Oh Damn, I didn't even see that, thanks for pointing that out.
I didn't pay attention to that either!
I too didn't notice until I looked a little more carefully. I'm surprised a post would receive a reply 4 years after initial posting ;)
Yeah, and now the thread has almost 5X the original number of posts, four years later!
The R143's are not new and they are 60' long.
Uh, the thread you are responding to is from 1999, and Chris R27-R30 with yet another handle.....
I have a R143 question. I noticed lately the end destination in the C/R operating postion is lit up. Sometimes both C/R operating positions are lit up. Whats up with that?
Da Beastmaster
You mean inside the cab? They should always be lit up on both sides, its the way it was designed.
No, reread my post. The end destination sign are lit up. Im not talking about inside the cab.
Da Beastmaster
D'oh. Sorry. I noticed its also common on the 42 and 44. Maybe a bad connection in the coupler (just a guess, not a CI) on whatever connection is made to keep the signs out. I noticed also that when this happens on the 44 you cannot get both sidesign sections in sync (one will take and one will keep reverting to the setting before they fell out of sync).
I always wanted to know the following:
1. Has there ever been a R46 to Astoria on the N or the old R(RR)?
2. Why is it that on the 7 on Main Street. After the doors are
closed I would hear 2 loud buzzes(I think it's a word),
then the train proceeds. However, I don't hear these buzzes
on the rest of the journey, except on a hold and resume.
3. What is the need for the B to bypass Dekalb Ave. Is it that
much faster?
Thanks in advance
Cheers
Mike
(1) Not sure about this since I've never been a regular Astoria rider - but it probably did occur on rare occasions due to the numerous equipment swaps.
(2) The buzzer is the conductor signalling the motorman that it's safe to proceed because doors are closed and platform is clear - as long as the motorman has the correct signal indications. Also called "two to go." Usually occurs when a train is departing its origin terminal station.
(3) If the B did not bypass DeKalb there would be a big backup of trains because all would be required to stop. Also the platform would be even more crowded in the rush hours. Remember, passengers coming from mid-Manhattan (6th Ave) can board the B at the same stations as the D or Q. Passengers from lower Manhattan on the N, R, or M can transfer to the B at Pacific Street - no need to do so at DeKalb. D abd Q trains stop at DeKalb because transferring passengers do not have the Pacific Street option.
[If the B did not bypass DeKalb there would be a big backup of trains because all would be required to stop]
Except that there seems to be a bick backup anyway because the B always stops at Dekalb (albeit on the otherside of the wall, not at the platform).
[ D abd Q trains stop at DeKalb because transferring passengers do not have the Pacific Street option.]
Sure they do. Atlantic Ave and Pacific St are connected underground.
There was a previous thread that mentioned that there used to be a connection to the DeKalb bypass track form the Brighton line that was destroyed at the same time that the platforms were extended northward. The main reason the B doesn't stop at DeKalb is that to do so, it would have to cross over the Fourth Ave. local tracks to get to the DeKalb bridge tracks, thereby causing all kinds of delays on the N/R line.
When using the bridge, the N also skips Dekalb during rush hour. The R, D and Q have always made the stop, as have the B and N off peak.
The problem is that with 4 lines on the local track through Dekalb at rush hour frequency, there is just not enough capacity. Even today, with the M, N, and R on the local track and only the B going through as an express the local track can get pretty well plugged, and then there are more delays as the N switches over to become an express before Pacific St. Of course back in the BMT days with Culver, West End, Sea Beach, Brighton (local and express), Fourth Av. and various rush hour extras from the Eastern Division and the Nassau Loop converging here.
Put it this way: DeKalb was the main junction point for the entire BMT division in the olden days; all (rail)roads led to DeKalb. The real problem is the present unavailabilty of the south side bridge tracks.
The Manhattan Bridge is a disaster waiting to happen. I can see the headlines now: "Bridge Collapse in New York" and "Subway Train Plunges into East River, Paralyzes System".
The problem with Coney Island B trains stopping at DeKalb is they would ahve to merge with N & R trains as they leave the station. If a B would arrive the same time as an N or R, one of them would have to "yield".
In regard to the R-46 to Astoria, I remember once in 96, when for some reason the N needed to borrow an R-46 from the F at Stillwell to make a trip or two. The train operator who had the first scheduled trip on this train could not take the train out because he had not operated one since they were brought in in the mid 70's. He was not considered qualified. Fortunatly someone else jumped ahead to make the trip.
1. Yes I saw a R46 on the N. I saw it under a subway page. I will give address and name later....
R-46s were assigned to the N back in the late 70s, but at that time it didn't go to Astoria. I remember seeing mostly R-32s on the RR then.
When the N and R first switched in 1987, they also swapped equipment (The R got the Jamaica R-32's and 46's, and the N got the CI stuff, mainly 32's and slant 40's. Soon the 68's spilled over from the D)
Yet, right after the switch, some R-46's did run to Astoria on the N. The new signs (still the one-piece curtains, no digital yet), did have the N to both Astoria and 71st, as well as the R to 71st, so they did still run there for a while.
As far as you buzzer question, in the rule book there is a rule (with subrules) about the use of the buzzer. I don't have the Rule book in front of me but when trains leave the terminal the conductor has to close up and signal the Train Operator (T/O) with two buzzers even though the T/O might have indication.
Trains not at terminals but in a station, sometimes the conductor will buzz the T/O with a long single buzz with the doors open to let the T/O know that he will not be closing the doors soon. There might be holding lights (a dispather, tower can hold a train with a set of three orange lights) and unless the T/O sticks his head out and looks back he won't see it.
On the other hand, within a station after a station stop the Conductor could have closed the doors but the T/O still has a red signal. The T/O can signal the conductor to open up agian with a single long buzz or to close down with two.
In an EMERGANCY type situation, a train I was on overshot the stop point and the head car was not platforming (lined up with the platform). IF the doors opened, customers would fall to the tackbed. In this case the T/O held the buzzer down long and hard (your single buzz) and on the PA screamed "Don't Open Don't Open, We Didn't Platform". Even though the Conductor is responsible to check his sign board (point to it) and not open if he is not in front of it, it was a great backup.
On the Staten Island Railway (use modified Subway Cars (R44's)) they don't have the same rules as the subway but they use the buzzer to signal movement over switches. The same One Long for Stop, Two to Proceede and Three to Back Up.
At Seashore, we too follow the same buzzer/horn/whistle pattern, with one addition:
When stationary, 'three' means clear to back-up when safe. But when moving (forward), 'three' means emergency stop.
I also don't have the rule book in front of me so I can't quote the rule #s. The signal to proceed at a terminal is two long buzzes. Two short buzzes is an acknowledgement to any buzzer signal. The fact that both crew members now carry radios has made the use of the buzzer obsolete, there are some other buzzer signals.
Long-Long-Long = The signalling crew member (usually the Conductor) is looking for RCI assistance and is asking the train operator to signal via whistle or radio.
Long-Short-Long-Short = The signalling crew member is looking for police assistance.
BTW - the Whistle signals are the same as the buzzer signals.
You also might have to use Buzzer Bypass. That if Train Operator don't have inication but the conductor has it and also the other way around. You would give the T/O 2 Buzzers to proceed but usally the train goes out of service or wait Intill the Terminal. I had a situation at Pelham on an R 62 car No.1831. I was taken the 10:06 AM in the west pocket. The conductor had indication but I didn't. So an RCI and TSS ride my train. They tell me that we the Conductor gets Indication she will give 2 Buzzers and I was to hit the Bypass. This was also in passendger service. So I get to Buhre Ave I call Control and explained the Situation. So they said "Who was the TSS that know on train that told you to move out of Pelham on the Bypass. So I told them. I got Indication back at Castle Hill. So I gave Control an Update. So they told the TSS to give control a call at Parkchestor. So when I got back to Pelham I learned a that my train was not suppose to leave the Term. like that. Also the TSS,RCI,and Train Dispatchor had to write a Report and including Me and my Conductor.
Absolutely correct. A train that loses T/O indication en route will remain in service using the buzzer/bypass BUT it can't leave the terminal that way. Oddly enough, the buzzer MUST be used. You can't use the Intercom or the radio to remain in service.
Actually it is not so odd that you cannot use the radio or intercom instead of the buzzer.
The reason for not using the radio is that anyone other than the conductor out in the field can tell the motorman that he has indication. There is a chance that you don't know your conductor and anyone could sound like him/her on the radio. Also, if the battery of either the motorman or conductors radio battery is losing or has lost power, this makes it not reliable.
As for not using the intercom, i'm not sure but I guess, maybe it's the PR of it. SOmetimes the intercom (on those trains that have it) comes out over the PA and it doesn't sound so good.
I can see the point about the radio and can even visualize some jerk thinking it would be fun to 'fool' a train operator into moving before the doors are closed. I don't agree about the intercom, however. Regularly on the LIRR, you'll hear the conductor tell the engineer over the PA, "When you get the signal, you have two to go."
Correct, but the police do not know the whistle/horn signal. They are not taught that in the academy!
That brings me as a T/O to a question. If the Police don't Know the horn signals then Why does Control tell us to blow in route for police? I guess I'm just butter sitting at a station intill they show up.
All NYCT police receive training related to the subway system. The classes (some, anyway) are held in Jamaica Yard. While it's largly track safety, they do learn the radio and whistle codes. Do not take any comfort in that though. My son-in-law (A NYPD Sgt) has no clue what -0-0 means.
My rule book is in the trunk of my car so I can't "" the rule. Conductors are never to pass buzzer signals while in the station with side doors open, unless he has opened an emergency brake valve. The reason for this, as explained in school car, is the train operator could mistake the buzzer signal as signal to proceed or an electrical malfuction could cause one very long buzzer signal to sound like two long buzzer signals. Which we know is a signal to proceed. Only the Train operator is permitted to pass buzzer signals while in the station with side doors open.
I just was wondering if anyone knows if the upcoming expansion of A express and C local service in Brooklyn to the weekends in something that will last as long as the Willamsburg Bridge remains closed, or is it something permanent?
There are constant schedule changes in the TA. Nothing is permanent.
It technically is temporary, but it may stay that way. A clue is that this was proposed in 1995, long before the bridge closing was planned, and it was only killed by Pataki's budget cuts. But if they thought of it then it's something they think should be done.
The expanded service will last just for the forthcoming pick. Once the Williamsburg Bridge re-opens, the cars go back to their original shops and all service will return to the approximate levels they are at today.
If the expanded (weekend) "A" and "C" service proves successful and popular with riders, do you think that they would consider making at least the weekend part permanent?
Wayne
It is permanent
I always say, there's nothing like an un-informed source. Care to share where you get your mis-information?
since Peter Cafiero is the guy in NYCT Operations Planning who decides what route runs where, and when, I would hardly call him an uninformed source.
David (who works around the corner from Peter in Bus Schedules)
I prefer to go by the hard facts....permanent is only as long as each pick, unless it is a 700,800 or 900 job (temporary job that can be changed or abandoned at any time).
The thing I don't understand it, why is the TA substituting increased off peak service (on the Fulton Line) for decreased rush hour through service (on the Broadway line)? What will happen at rush hour?
There are things they could have done. The TA could have replaced the C (six per hour) with the E (12 per hour) in Brooklyn, if it has the cars.
And if it doesn't have the cars, why will it be running trains on Broadway at all -- to service the handful of people who ride from one part of Bushwich/BedStuy to another? Just to say every station is open, to avoid political problems?
Its going to be Baaaad on the Fulton Line, and for those riding the F and tranfering to go downtown, during rush hours.
If there are more E's than C's, maybe the E should replace the C in Brooklyn. There is certainly enough capacity under Fulton Street to have it. Also, why not make the E express in Manhattan? It seems wasteful to have both the C and E running local and only the A running express.
Sorry David (and Peter). Didn't mean to step on your school tie. Let me tell you why the service changes are not permanent. The increase in service is predicated on East NY Yard transferring 184 R-40Ms and R-42s to Coney Island. Coney Island will send 80 R-32 Phase II cars to Jamaica and Jamaica will send 82 R-32 Phase Is to Pitkin Yard. When all the moves are done the fleets will be:
East NY = -184 cars
Coney Island = +104 cars
Jamaica = -2 cars
Pitkin = + 82 cars
The increased service is based solely on these car movements. If the cars are not moved back when the Williamsburg Bridge re-opens, WHAT CARS WILL EAST N.Y. USE TO MAKE FULL SERVICE? IF THEY ARE MOVED BACK, HOW WILL THE INCREASED FULTON ST. SERVICE BE SUSTAINED?
How many added cars would be needed if only Rockaway A trains ran Express and the Lefferts ran local (or the other way). During the week how many cars would be needed if the C ran to Lefferts and all A trains to Rockaway?
Aren't there supposed to be at least 116 (and possibly 216) R143 arriving to plug that gap. They're all bound for the "L". Doubltless this depends on when they arrive. Once they do, then maybe the above move will be permanent.
Wayne
The building and delivery of the R-143 is to some extent, dependent on the CBTC project. The 3 competing compaiies must work with Kawasaki Rail Car to insure that whatever system is chosen, it will interface with the cars. That type of joint engineering will add some time to the actual production. In addition, 184 cars is the equivalent of 23 trains from the east. The R-143 contract (without the option) is for half of that. We'd still be a few cars short. It would take a moderate amount of additional time to exercise the option for the 112 additional cars, too. Besides, those additional cars will be needed when the 63rd St connection opens.
There is something I don't understand. You say cars will be moved to Pitkin, but the only service increase on the Fulton Line I have heard about is keeping the Cs off peak. You don't need more cars for that, you just need fewer in the yard doing nothing off peak. Will more rush hour service be added on the Fulton Line as well? No one has said so.
"Will more rush hour service be added on the Fulton Line as well?"
There will be more rushhour service, at least on the E line. At least 4 more trains will be added. I've yet to see the #s for the other service but if Pitkin is getting 82 additional cars, there will clearly be additional rushhour service on the Fulton St. lines.
"You don't need more cars for that, you just need fewer in the yard doing nothing off peak."
You are making assumptions that cars just sit in the yard waiting to be used for rush hour service. During the off-hours, much is done to those cars you say are sitting idle in the yard. They are cleaned. They are inspected. Minor repairs are made. Cars due for insection are drilled out and put into consists of other cars due for inspection. Bad orfer cars are drilled and replaced too. One of the problems of beefing up off-peak service is that we can not get all of the cars we need for maintenance, off the road.
Steve,
Your explanation makes sense as to why the increased weekday service would not be feasible on the C after the Williamsburg reopens, but what about the weekends?
How many additional trains would it take to run the C to Euclid instead of WTC at ten minute intervals. I'm guessing 5 or 6. There must be 40 - 48 available cars for weekend service, right?
Chuck
Sorry, Steve, I should have been clearer.
Peter Cafiero was probably referring to the weekend A express service, which will be permanent (as permanent as things are in this town, anyway). You're right in your statement that the increased A/C rush hour service is only temporary, because, as you said, the cars just simply aren't there to do it when the J/M/Z services are running over the Williamsburg Bridge.
Bygones?
David
Sorry David (and Peter). After reading the post by 'CTG' I went back and read the original post. It did specify weekend service which would likely not be dependent on the car assignment shift. This was part of the innitiatives of increased off-peak service that came as a result of the 'surplus'. It will likely be 'permanent', as Peter suggested. My mistake.
The weekend and late evening expansion is permanent. Of course the weekday increase in A service is only for the williamsburg bridge, and you are correct that it is being accomplished via a rather complex set of equipment moves that essentially have the effect of transfering unused J and M equipment temporarily to the A line (as well as the L, of course). The weekend increases on the L are permanent as well. The weekday rush hour L increases are temporary, tho it is likely that the PM L service will still be higher next fall than it is now, due to increased ridership.
One of the questions that keeps coming up here is what the service plan will be when the 63rd St. connector is opened. What is the current 'Operations & Planning' idea for te Queens corridor?
1. There was some kind of breakdown on the El this morning. All passengers got off at 30th St to use shuttle buses to 69th St.
2. If anyone gets a Times Square entertainment guide from the visitors center in Times Square, you'll notice a snip-it in the back that makes reference to the "Independent Rapid Transit".
Yep - I was told they lost third rail power in both directions on the MFL, at least on the west end. At 34th St., the station was empty, the turnstiles were turned off (red instead of green lights) and the station agents were giving advice on alternate travel. Considering the situation, this was about as helpful as they could be.
Not so at 30th St - When I passed through on the trolley, it looked like chaos on the MFL platfrom there. It looked like they had not bothered to tell anyone what was going on, much less clear out the station and send people on their way via the shuttle busses.
This brings up a question. There was a stopped M-4 train in 30th Street. There weren't letting anybody on, of course, but I wondered what the chances were that a train would just happen to be in a station when the power went out. So - can the M-4s travel to the next station on battery power after losing third rail power? I've read about trains that can do this. I just wondered if the M-4s are this advanced...
When I saw hoardes of people pouring out of the station, all they knew was that they had to take shuttle buses.
As for the M-4's, I don't know whether or not they can do this.
As far as I know, the M-4's don't have any capability to run on batteries. The lights will stay on but little else will happen.
This Sunday I read a rather interesting article in Newsday by staff writer Hugo Kugiya. It mixes plans for the renovations of the Farley Post Office (accross the street) with history and includes a one page color floor plan. I will only repeat a few details:
- $315 million of which 100M Fed, 40M State, 35M MTA, 25M City,
bal thru bonds & other sources
- Built 1910, lasted 53 years, torn down 1963
- 1995 Penn Stn Redevelopment Corp
- Start Jan 2000, complete 2002 or early 2003
- Search for artifacts, e.g. eight pair of "Night & Day"
Interestingly no mentioned was made of connections to old NYC Hudson River line, Metro-North or #7 Flushing line.
Copyright Disclaimer: I have mentioned the publication & author by name & quoted less then 400 words from the article.
Mr t__:^)
In addition, the March-April 1999 issue of Preservation magazine (published by the National Trust for Historic Preservation) has an excellent article on Penn Station and the Farley proposal - mostly on the history of Penn Station, its role as a catalyst for the historic preservation movement (we all know how close we came to losing Grand Central), and on the archaeological work being done in the Meadowlands in an effort to locate the statues. It includes a nice picture of a house in Eatontown, NJ which has some of the original balustrade used as a fence by the sidewalk and two of the original coachway lanterns.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The city came mighty close to losing Carnegie Hall, too, had it not been for Isaac Stern. The old Met wasn't as fortunate, though.
I believe Grand Central was actually threatened at least twice. In the 1950s there was a proposal to completely replace it with an office building. The 1970s proposal (which was involved in a case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court) would have kept the exterior, but some of the interior would have been lost for the supports to an office building above the station.
The demolition of Penn Station began in 1963, but it was done in stages, and thus went on into 1965.
Yes, as support columns and floors for Madison Square Garden were put in, Penn Station was dismantled. We went through it in 1965; unfortunately, I don't remember how much of it was still standing, but do recall the train announcer's voice booming through the loudspeakers in the waiting area. Maybe the main waiting room was the last portion to go. It really is too bad Penn Station wasn't saved. There was talk of leaving the main waiting room (the tall central part) intact and doing away with the rest of the terminal.
And the following day, I rode on the subway for the first time. The rest is history.
Come to think of it, the old Met was still in business that summer.
Re: saving waiting room
I think something like that was done at Chicago Union Station, where the front of the station was kept but the concourse behind it was replaced by an office building. The other five big Chicago stations - Central, Grand Central, Northwestern, LaSalle Street, and Dearborn Street (except for part of the headhouse) - have all been demolished.
On the other hand, there are many stations around the country that have been saved (although often without train service), including the union stations in St. Louis, Cincinnati, Washington, Jacksonville, Albany, and Main Street and Broad Street stations in Richmond. I'm sure that there are others that could be added to this list.
You can add Nashville and Indianapolis to your list. Denver's Union Station is still functioning as a depot for Amtrak.
Outside of the Northeast Corridor, I can also think of San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle (King Street for Amtrak and Union Station for the transit agency, I think), Kansas City (although its future use is uncertain), Cleveland (not with Amtrak, however), St. Paul (ditto for Amtrak) and Memphis. Buffalo Central Terminal is empty and endangered.
There are some that I'm not sure about: Detroit (is the NYC station still standing?), Syracuse (downtown station was used by Greyhound for awhile), and Pittsburgh (Amtrak was there, but I don't have recent info.).
Just a note, Seattle Union Station itself isn't currently used for any transportation purposes. (I think it's rented out for private parties and social events...??) On one side of Union Station is the active King St Amtrak station, on the opposite side is the International District bus tunnel station, and across the street is the southern end of the Waterfront Trolley line.
[Just a note, Seattle Union Station itself isn't currently used for any transportation purposes. (I think it's rented out for private parties and social events...??) On one side of Union Station is the active King St Amtrak station, on the opposite side is the International District bus tunnel station, and across the street is the southern end of the Waterfront Trolley line.]
When the upcoming Seattle-area commuter rail service begins, will it use Union Station of King Street?
The commuter rail service will use King Street station as the station building, but I think renovations there are supposed to incorporate the currently unused track/platform areas of Union Station.
You can also add my hometown, South Bend, Ind., to your list. Its Union Station no longer functions as a railroad station, although trains still pass right by it. The depot's main waiting room is now used for banquets, but has not been renovated as such. The Amtrak station is now on the western outskirts of town, next to the old Bendix plant; South Shore trains now terminate at Michiana Regional Airport.
"I think something like that was done at Chicago Union Station, where the front of the station was kept but the concourse behind it was replaced by an office building. The other five big Chicago stations - Central, Grand Central, Northwestern, LaSalle Street, and Dearborn Street (except for part of the headhouse) - have all been demolished."
Close. Central Station, Grand Central, and LaSalle Street were destroyed. There is a modern LaSalle St. Station behind the Stock Exchange, and the Roosevelt Road Metra station is the tiny replacement for the old Central Station. I wouldn't say you were wrong about Dearborn, but that you are mischaracterizing it: the station building itself is basically intact (used as a shopping center), with only the trainsheds missing. The glass is half-full rather than half-empty. (^:
Northwestern Station had the front (waiting room, ticket counters, etc.) removed in the '80s for the construction of a large office tower, Citicorp Center. However, the long building or structure behind the station building that held up the tracks and trainshed, built in the same classical style as the station building, is still there behind the Citicorp, and you cut through the Citicorp to get to the trains on the upper level.
At Union Station, there were originally two buildings, one along the river and containing the stairs down to the platforms and the other, larger building one block inland and containing the Great Hall. The main building survives but the concourse building along the river was torn down in the '70s to make way for an office tower. The entire west riverbank is lined with an open plaza and office buildings that are built on top of the Union Station tracks and platforms. The tracks are on the actual ground, while the streets are one story up.
First excuse me if someone else has already mentioned this, as I haven't been reading all the posts.
I bought several copies of old RxR model mag recently & saw the same adv twice:
12/97 Model Railroader AND 3/98 RxR Model Craftsman, the Red Caboose has (had) models of R21 in N, and R17, R21 & R29 in HO
Also Traction & Models #136 (6/76) had a BMT Std at Model Traction Supply Co in Middletown NY. This one I was looking in for BRT/BMT articles for a SubTalk friend from Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
I have the details on the "Eyes" at Chambers/WTC Complex.
Quoting from the official flyer on the art:
It is entitled Oculus (meaning Eye). It is cerated by Kristin Jones and Andrew GInzel. There are 300 different views, all based opn actual human eyes taken from photographs--not computer generated.
"Oculus was created to personalize and integrate the stations. Eyes are both subtle and strong--they engage passing individuals, allowign for meditation or inviting dialogue. Perople make the choice, but either way they're drawn into a dynamic and connected with the environment. Oculus animates the underground world, it humanizes and challenges, even as it reflects NY's wonderful diversity and the diversity of the larger world "
The central piece is 20ft by 40 ft oval shape ansd surroudned by bands of brilliant glass and stone. Also present is an outline map of NYC.
DAVE: Add to the proper sections. Wayne has photos that will be coming
A 40-foot-by-20-foot Eye!! EGAD! Oculus Maximus! That is one enormous eye, for sure. I hope it isn't one of those sinister-looking ones (like the one at the head of the stairs, NE corner of Church/Park Place exit)
Eye now have total of 18 different pictures of all kinds of "eyes".
Eye guess eye'm about halfway through with these all these creepy peepers. ;o)
Wayne
Speaking of Eye guess...
There was a game show by that title back in the late 60s hosted by Bill Cullen.
Eye Eye Eye :)
--Mark
Just out of curiosity, how many of the other subtalkers have personalized license plates that reflect their interest in transit and/or railroading? Steve B has mentioned his plate
8AVEXP
and I have
TROLLEY
on my van. For a long time, I also had
PENNSYRR
but my older son took that car over and both the car and the plate are now expired. (Actually, they make a nice lawn ornament in the side yard, much to my wife's distress!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, 27 of us are getting BSM organizational plates, as Maryland has made it easier to get - you only need 24 vehicles. Numbers will be 1-27 in order, with who gets what determined by random draw. By literally the "luck of the draw" I get BSM 20, which happens to be my membership number. (I'm one of the founding members.) The plates will have the figure of Car 417 (Baltimore City Passenger Railway 1885 - our corporate symbol) in the correct green, and the words Baltimore Streetcar Museum with the numbers assigned.
Saw the sample plate tonight at our (BSM) Board meeting. It looks great, and the approval should be in the hands of the State Tag Shop for formal manufacture of the final plate in the very near future.
If I had a second vehicle, I'd probably go for IRT 3352 if I lived in NYC; here in Massachusetts we are limited to six characters, so perhaps I'd choose R1TOR9.
The plate on my (one and only) vehicle is WMBR 88, representing my other interest, radio. WMBR is the MIT radio station, of which I am the volunteer president and advisor. It's at 88.1 on the FM dial; also the 88 represents the radio station for which I occasionally work, WCBS Newsradio 88.
If you lived in Colorado, you could get IRT3352 plates, since our plates now have seven characters. (I had a feeling you'd go for something pertaining to 3352!) If I wanted to, I could put in for A8AVEXP plates, which would drive my allegiance closer to home.
Interestingly enough, 8AVEXP was the last combination I came up with when it came to personalized plates. I had other choices such as SUBWAY, SGAUGE (for American Flyer), R-10, R-32, NYMETS, and ATRAIN. At one time, six different choices were allowed; later, it went up to eight. I picked up a new application when it came time to submit my request, and put down 8AVEXP as my first choice. The rest, as they say, is history.
If you lived in NY I can't believe you wouldn't go for WEATHRR
That's good idea. I'll consider it whenever I get around to switching my license and registration from New York to Maryland.
SubTalkers with vehicles registered in New York may check the availabilty of a desired "subway" vanity plate at the following site-
http://www.dmv.state.ny.us/inettrans/wcCustomPlates.ASP?WCI=libstep1&WCU
Just FYI...there a LOT of good combinations available..check it out!!
In the mid 1980's the Crescent Street Interlocking on the Jamaica Avenue EL was resignaling by GRS and the middle track was connected on both ends by a crotch layout interlocking.
This interlocking was the first application on NYCTA of using a non-vital microprocessor for route selection purposes. The Generalogic 1 microprocessor was used with a backup. The GL1 is a one bit microprocessor which is a antique by today's standards.
On the Sea Beach Line non-vital microprocessors are used by a company called Modicom.
What's the idea - an automatic local interlock not needing tower control???
Ben, I don't think you understand. The interlocking was resignaled with all new equipment in the mid 1980's. The non-vital relays for route selection purposes which were normally used in those days were provided with a non-vital microprocessor doing the same thing. Originally there was only a Maintainers Panel in the Relay Room with the provision for remote control from a new tower at ENY. The Maintainers Panel was the tower. Today, Crescent Street is operated from ENY Tower. Normally, all the normal direct signals are fleeted and reclear automatically with no tower intervention. This is no different than other NX Plants or Mechanical Interlocking machines.
I remember the actual two story building on the el just after the curve ends at Fulton & Crescent. As a kid I could look out my bedroom window and the building was about 100 feet away. If I remember it was about 10 foot wide and maybe 16 foot long. It looked to have two floors. I often thought that I could see several indicator type lights reflecting in the glass of the second floor windows at night. The strange thing was that in all the years I lived there I never saw a sign of a human attendent. If there was someone on duty he must have been some type of hermit, and sat up there in the dark. With all of the improvements has that building been removed? I left Brooklyn almost forty years ago but have fond memories of watching the gate cars and the Standards run by on Crescent St.
I tower building on the structure no longer exists. I understand that the building had a fire in it which made the interlocking inoperative. All signals were converted for automatic operation. Then the signaling was replaced per my previous postings. There is a prefabricated one story metal building at the curve which is the relay room today.
I wonder if anyone has a photo of the old tower at Crescent Street?
In the mid 1980's the Crescent Street Interlocking on the Jamaica Avenue EL was resignaling by GRS and the middle track was connected on both end by a crotch layout interlocking.
This interlocking was the first application on NYCTA of using a non-vital microprocessor for route selection purposes. The Generalogic 1 microprocessor was used with a backup. The GL1 is a one bit microprocessor which is a antique by today's standards.
On the Sea Beach Line non-vital microprocessors are used by a company called Modicom.
That type of connection is seriously called a 'crotch'???
-Hank
NEWS FLASH
Well, I have just finished putting up the newest page on the site, the Subway Bibliography: Movies page. It is by no means finished and I am "rushing" it out to press for reasons that will become clear shortly. The page needs work and I'll be adding info gleaned from SubTalk to the movie entries as I have time to do so.
The second big news is this: I have joined the Amazon.Com Associates program. Basically this means I earn a few cents for items bought from Amazon that were bought by people following links on my pages. The money will be used to keep the site running. This is the first commercial partnership/sponsorship I have entered into and I don't intend to have any/many more. I like the site to be commercial free and I hope you all appreciate that as well.
The reason I rushed the movie page up is this: A lot of the movies we are listing are still available on VHS to buy (and some on DVD). Since I bet a lot of you will be buying movies based on what we talk about here I figured the site could benefit from that. Purely selfish reasons but this site costs about $2000 a year to keep on the Web (not even counting any necessary hardware purchases). I would also like to use the money to donate to various museums on the site's behalf but I figure the income will only be a small amount.
If you do want to help the site out by buying items from amazon, this is how the program works:
1. Go to the Subway Bibliography and find items that you are interested in.
2. Follow the "BUY this item at Amazon.COM" link to bring up the Amazon page for that item, and if you decide you want it, Add it to your Shopping Cart.
3. If you want any additional items, GO BACK TO THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, find your next item, and follow the link from www.nycsubway.org to Amazon. Then proceed as in #2. The reason for this is that commissions are only earned on items DIRECTLY LINKED FROM the Associate site. If you do your own search inside amazon, and buy, it doesn't count.
4. You can also use the search box on the Subway Bibliography page to find items that I may not have listed.
5. If you buy items this way please let me know -- I want to make sure it works!
Thank you all for your continued support of SubTalk and www.nycsubway.org
Dave Pirmann
Web Site Host
pirmann@nycsubway.org
You've got to hand it to Amazon; this is a marketing coup. Perfectly targeted niche advertizing, and the cost is zero unless you get a sale (since its commission only), and the cost of advertizing exactly equals the sales you get.
Looking back on memos we wrote from 1990 to 1992, its amazing how much we underestimated this internet thing. We knew that as one of the most expensive parts of the country, plain old businesses would always leave NYC, but as one of the most innovative NYC had to generate new industries to stay afloat and justify its high wages. But we had no idea what the new wave would be, and said so at the time.
Wow, has Amazon got a great franchise in the short run. I had always been a fan of NFL films football highlight shows, and a friend of mine had a record of the background music for the show, but I could never find it. Well, NFL films reissued a version on CD, but NY record stores couldn't carry something for such a narrow market. But Amazon had it, and not only could I buy one for myself, but I could order and ship a gift-wrapped copy to my dad for his birthday. And there they are grabbing another small niche market, the railfans, which previously could not be served.
In the long run, it seems that economies of scale are dead. With the net, there is no reason that someone couldn't run a store specializing in railfan stuff out of his or her basement, and reach a national market, as long as they had a van to move stuff to and from a shipper.
BTW, our regional economist rivals over at EDC, who believe that government experts can predict and create the future, recommending directing public dollars toward New Media -- a couple of months ago. A little late, don't you thing, and the absence of subsidies and govenrment "help" doesn't seem to have hurt anyone did it? I like them better when the were promoting public investment in the revivial of "high wage, low environmental impact" manufacturing. Too bad we didn't get the Saturn plant.
Another interesting thing. The Science Business and Industry Library asked City Planning to measure their economic value to the city, so the Chairman (J. Rose) brought us up there for a meeting with the board. The project never really got off the ground, and its a good thing. I used to have to go up there all the time to do research, but now I just use the Internet from my home and office. It's OBSOLETE!
Transfers that should be there but are not:
1. 3 and L in Brooklyn
2. G and J,M,Z in Brooklyn
3. 7 and E,F,G in Queens(Courthouse Sq)
4. 7,N and E,F,G,R in Queens
5. 1,2,3,9 and A,C,E in Manhattan(34-Penn Station)**
At least there is improvement, there will be a transfer at Franklin Av-Botanic Garden between the S and 2,3,4,5.
** If you going to have sign outside the says 34 St-Penn Station:A,C,E,1,2,3,9 then build some type of a transfer. I guess it deals with overcrowding issue.
You're missing the key transfer of all transfers:
The B,D,F, and Q to the Uptown 6 at Broadway/Lafayette/Bleeker
You got that one right. If they could build an underpass from the E and F at 53rd and Lex to the downtown 6, they can put one in at Bleeker to the uptown 6, even if the platform is further to the north (put in a long ramp down at the end of the uptown 6 platform and it would even by ADA compliant)
If I remember correctly, the E/F transfer to the 6 trains was built by a private contractor. Apparently, the same contractor was constructing a building in the area, and it turned out that an exit from one of those stations would have led directly into the building. As a compromise, the TA shut down that exit, and the contractor built that connection between the E/F and the 6. This worked out great for the TA, the contractor, and all of us! I'd gladly sacrifice exits at any station for more free transfers. (Well, maybe not Court Square. From what I've read on Subtalk, you have to use the free transfer just to get in the station at certain times.)
Sorry, that story is sort of ambiguous now that I look over it. I can't remember exactly what my source is. If anyone could supply some more details and/or confirm/deny this story, I would greatly appreciate it.
Transfers that should be there but are not:
1. 3 and L in Brooklyn
2. G and J,M,Z in Brooklyn
3. 7 and E,F,G in Queens(Courthouse Sq)
4. 7,N and E,F,G,R in Queens
5. 1,2,3,9 and A,C,E in Manhattan(34-Penn Station)**
At least there is improvement, there will be a transfer at Franklin Av-Botanic Garden between the S and 2,3,4,5.
** If you going to have sign outside the says 34 St-Penn Station:A,C,E,1,2,3,9 then build some type of a transfer. I guess it deals with overcrowding issue.
Also when the Franklin Shuttle returns rename it. I say "I" train. There are too many shuttles..
[Transfers that should be there but are not:
1,2,3,9 and A,C,E in Manhattan(34-Penn Station)]
Penn Station is between these lines. Building a transfer passageway would cost an enormous amount. Besides, there's no real need for a transfer because one already is available one stop north at Times Square-42nd Street.
Seeing as how my normal entry and exit from the system is Penn Station, I've never noticed, but I always assumed that there was a connection - the transit map (at least at one time) showed one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My less ambitious (?) wish is to hear announcements that announce only the transfers that are actually available at that time. It seems like almost every time I'm riding the 4/5 to Fulton St the J/M/Z get announced as transfers, even on weekends when none of them are running there. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the time I also hear the C announced as a transfer during the times when it's running to the WTC and not through to Brooklyn. The subway is already confusing enough without this added misinformation.
Excellent point, David! I cringe on weekends when I hear announcements that you can:
"Transfer here to the and ."
Just like I cringe here in Boston on Sundays when on the Orange Line they announce Forest Hills -- last stop. Change for the Commuter Rail. The Needham line, the only Commuter Rail line that serves Forest Hills, doesn't run at all on Sundays! I asked a very young looking conductor why they do that, and he said they are told to. It makes me wonder if conductors and instructors even know the right transfer information.
On Saturday Feb 27, I was hearing various transfer announcements to the train.
It seems that some conductors do the transfer announcements by rote.
All it takes is a few sit-down sessions with a subway map/service guide to clear up some of these errors. Just concentrate on what lines DON'T run on weekends/off peak hours to promote the awareness of them.
Mind you, conductors are consummate professionals, but we are all human, and a few of us do slip up from time to time.
Wayne
Ive always liked when the conductor not only gets the right transfers that are available, but also WHERE they are (i.e. which staircase to use..etc...).
When the Franklin Avenue Shuttle returns, I say renaming it. There are too many shuttles right now. I say rename it "I" train.
42 St Shuttle should be 10.
Rockaway shuttle should go back to H.
I agree with renaming the Franklin Shuttle as a real line because it actually goes places where no other train does. However the other shuttles should stay that way because they double service for lines that already run those routes.
[I agree with renaming the Franklin Shuttle as a real line because it actually goes places where no other train does. However the other shuttles should stay that way because they double service for lines that already run those routes.]
For much of the time, the Rockaway Park Shuttle is the only train running on its route.
I'd also say that the 7 is at best an imperfect substitute for the 42nd Street Shuttle. Getting to the 7 is quite a bit less convenient, especially at the Grand Central end. And not to mention the fact that the Shuttle and the 7 do not share any tracks.
How about calling it by the neighborhood the line serves: The Bedford-Stuyvesant Shuttle. Or even the Bed-Stuy & Prospect Park Shuttle?
Or if we really want to get into it, let's call the Franklin Shuttle, "The Little Electric Railroad That Cheated Death". And that's not far from the truth!
Doug aka BMTman
>>"The Little Electric Railroad That Cheated Death"<<
So true,
I just drove under the shuttle line on Atlantic Ave Monday, the overpass is redone but you can still look right up through it, no roadbed or track has been relayed.
Dean Street stop is almost gone. All the wood and stuff is torn down. A lot of cement stuff they still have to clean up but Dean Street stop is no more.
I wonder what the ridership numbers on the shuttle bus are compared to the ridership on the two R68's??
Hey I guess they can't marry all the 68's to 4 car sets (like they did with the 68A's) if they want to keep some of them on the shuttle??
IF you ever worked it as a c/r or t/o as I have you would what it should be called.
They had a pool of R68's especially assigned to the shuttle. 4 cars would be on the road during the day, with a 2 car gap train at Prospect Park and 2 more in CIYD out for maintance or awaiting to be used. I saw some cars in CIYD Main Shop last week undergoing SMS and being linked into 4 car units. Some of the 8 cars assigned: 2822, 2840, 2864, 2865, 2797 (?), 2902, 2903. The following cars are now part of a 4 car unit: 2840 (with 41, 43 & 42), and 2902, 2903 (with 00 & 01). So when the line reopens, different cars will be there. We'll have to see how many R68's are left as single cars and which car numbers.
I always thought "The Little Electric Railroad That Cheated Death" was the South Shore Line.
The South Shore Line was Chicago, South Shore and South Bend Railroad, and Interurban which survives today as an electric commuter line between Chicago and South Bend, IN, operated by a state agency (Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District).
The South Shore is very near and dear to my heart, being the South Bend native that I am. I remember when those trains used to come all the way to LaSalle Ave. and Michigan St. in downtown South Bend.
Back in the early 80s, the railroad touted itself as "The Little Railroad That Could". Actually, I think credit should go to the ICC, which more or less kept stalling when the Chessie Company, which owned the South Shore at the time, petitioned for discontinuance of passenger service in 1976. That's another story for another time. I'm just thankful the South Shore is still around. It's a big kick to be going down the Toll Road and seeing one of their trains cruising along.
Why not call the 42nd St.shuttle the '8'?
I guess the reason why would be that there was already a number 8 traain years ago that operated betwween 149th 3rd ave and gun hill road via 3rd ave connecting with the 2 and 5 at both points. maybe it is just out of respect that the number was retired. the reasoni say this was since the 9 was introduced why was it not called the 8 train instead of the 9 train. just a possibility.
Very simple. Why was the No.9 Intruduced instead of the No.8.
The No.1 is colored red that Represents the West Side IRT. The No.9 is also red. The No.8 is green representing the East Side IRT. It would be weid seeing a Red No.1 running with a green 8.
I guess he means, why didn't they make the 8 red, and then use it on 7th Av. I don't know. Maybe as a Pelham (or possibly Jerome) local, it is kind of closer to what it was as the 3rd Av el. If they don't use the 11 as the Flushing express, perhaps they could use it as the shuttle, since it is purple and the shuttle runs amost with the 7.
I'd much rather they use the 8 as the Flushing Express. I don't like all this skipping around of numbers. I think the route number sign curtains on the R-142s should have a purple 8 sign instead of the green 8 sign on the R-62/62As. I have another question. Do the Redbirds also have a green 8 and 10 and a purple 11 sign like the 62/62As? (which also have red 12 and 13 signs - I have no idea what those could possibly be used for)
There is definatly a green #10 end sign on the 62/62A's. I don't believe there is an 8.
Hey fellow you want to know there is a green or red sign?? Here is the sign.
He meant on the trains themselves. Those signs are from the bullets page, but I would like know if they're actually on the trains themselves.
I've seen 8 once between cars on the Lex Local; and have seen 10 three times. 11 I've seen upside down in a side sign; the others I haven't seen yet. I spend more time on the East side than I do on the West.
Wayne
Was this an R-62A or a Redbird? I've never seen the 8, but I have seen the 10 and the upside-down 11 before. I even saw the 13 on the end of a not-in-service 3 train. All on 62A's. There was a post about running skip-stop service from Woodlawn a while back. Maybe the 8 could be paired with the 4 for that service, but I've taken the 4 into Manhattan from Woodlawn and I never found it to be a really long ride like the 2 from 241st St is. There should be an 8 somewhere. Still I'd prefer that it go to Queens.
Speaking of which, let me ask, now that LIRR abandoned its Montauk branch west of Jamaica, what could be done with it? Do freight trains use any part of the branch? I say make this the new 8 train and connect it to the 7 train at Hunters Point Av. (hope the branch is wide enough to keep the tracks separate). It might even take some pressure off the Queens Blvd subway as it would connect to the E, F, Q, and R trains as the 7 does now. I would prefer it to go to Jamaica, but that might involve tons of reconstruction ($$$$) to keep the FRA wolves away from the TA's door. Maybe it could connect with the J and Z in Richmond Hill.
All of the cars on which I have seen the above signs were R62As, and all were on the 6.
And the LIRR hasn't technically abandoned the Montauk branch; trains still use it; the five stations on it have been closed. It sure is a prime candidate for recylement into Rapid Transit. And they should reopen the Rockaway Branch as combined LIRR and Rapid Transit, and reopen the stations too, but they have thousands of live, mature trees in the way!
Wayne
Connecting up a spur off either the E/F after 23rd-Ely or one off the 63rd St. line and running it beneath the Sunnyside yards and over to the Montauk line woul make sence. It could follow the line through Maspeth and then reconnect with the J/Z line just past Lefferts Blvd., and from there use the existing tunnel to Jamaica Center.
If you hooked up both the 53rd and 63rd St. tunnels, you could run two lines along that route, say the Q from Broadway and the F from Sixth Ave., and still have one line from each tunnel serving the existing Queens Blvd. line.
If you ran another Sixth Ave. line (the V) through 63rd St. and then as an express along Queens Blvd., you would even free up the local track to resume G service to 71st Continental in the future, while passengers from Jamaica would have two routes to get into Midtown Manhattan, taking some of the crowding off Queens Blvd.
You will NEVER NEVER NEVER see third rail/subway on the LIRR Montauk branch from LIC to Jamaica. The NIMBYS from Glendale killed it already & will do so again if needed. That track is still active tho. NY & Atlantic uses it, some LIRR trains to/from LIC use it non stop to/from Jamaica due to congestion on the main line, and LIRR regularly transfers cars & power thru the line daily.
Ah yes, I forgot about the NIMBY wimps (I wonder how they get to work!)
Is the Montauk line diesel operation though Glendale? Because you mentioned congestion on the Main Line. I didn't know that it was still in regular use. Do you happen to know the general pattern of Glendale and Maspeth commuters (where they work and how they get there)?
Funny how those NIMBYs complain how bad their service is and want something done about it, yet when something is suggested those wimps start screaming their heads off. Why don't those geniuses come up with a solution if they're so unhappy with the ones that are offered? Otherwise they should shut up and stop complaining about their commute! It's their own fault that nothing's being done so they should just grin and bear it! (Maybe they do and that's why nothing happens)
The line is not electrified. Any future proposals would have third rail installed and the residents don't want RR crossings with third rail there. Also, no matter how hard the RR tries, fences are always cut for people to cross the tracks. I know the RR was there before the residents, but they don't want the added noise of additional trains. Most of those people take train & bus or express bus to work. Many LIRR rush hour diesel train terminate at Hunters Point (#7line) The few that take the Montauk branch terminate at LIC, one stop closer to Manhattan on the #7.
"Any future proposals would have third rail installed and the residents don't want RR crossings with third rail there."
A legitimate objection, but the TA could 1) not have third rail where the ROW is crossing a street (trains would have to be long enough to bridge the gap) and 2) where the ROW crosses a street, install gates across the mouths of the ROW that are open when a train is coming through but are closed otherwise. CTA has these on one line and they seem to be effective.
"Also, no matter how hard the RR tries, fences are always cut for people to cross the tracks."
And people can stick their fingers into light sockets, even the "child-proof" ones if they use enough ingenuity. Yet nobody raises this as an argument for abolishing the electric utility and pulling all the electric wiring out of everyone's homes! Would we abolish expressways because someone can cut the fence to get on the right of way? Or ban tall buildings because someone can commit suicide from them, even if they have to break a sealed window to do it?
"I know the RR was there before the residents, but they don't want the added noise of additional trains."
These people are living in the CITY, not bloody freaking Hooterville! A certain amount of noise comes with the territory. I would tell them to "deal with it!!!!".
[re neighborhood objections to electrifying the LIRR Montauk line through Queens]
Another thing to keep in mind is that only a relatively small stretch of the line runs through a residential area at grade. That stretch is through Glendale, and without sounding too cynical, I should point out that it doesn't seem like the sort of neighborhood where the residents would wield much political influence - it's not a slum by any means, but no one will ever mistake it for Beverly Hills. Most of the Montauk line in Queens runs through industrial areas.
I'm sure if the line was turned over to the subway, they would either bury sections in an open cut with crossing bridges or elevate it, depending on which is cheaper and more practical (more of the former than the latter). If they could redo the SIRT to elimiated grade crossings in the mid-1960s, they could start off the 21st century by getting rid of them in Queens.
They eliminated relatively few grade crossings on the SIR in the 60's (between Jeffereson Ave and Bay Terrace), and that was done by the B&O, not the city. The project was actually started in the late 30's/early 40's, but, like most major infrastructure work in the city, was halted by WWII. The rest of the line, including the entire North Shore, and portions of the South Beach, were done as parts of WPA projects in the 30's.
-Hank
Yes! I live right near the #2 line, and you don't hear me complaining that they should put it underground. Those NIMBY losers should go move to Hooterville (they might enjoy it). They are living in a city. Cities aren't supposed to be quiet. Deal with it or get out! Bring on the #8 train to Glendale!
Here in Chicago, there are a large number of suburbanites moving back to the city. While this is generally a positive trend, there are also some recent negative consequences from people used to strict zoning laws that separate uses now living in city neighborhoods where mixed uses are the norm.
1) Once several loft residences have been built or converted in an industrial area, some of the new residents then form "concerned citizen" groups and complain to their alderman about the noise and traffic from the remaining factories and warehouses!! To the city's credit, they have a goal of preserving industrial uses and will NOT rezone the "offending" factories. And this has not significantly affected the loft market. Indeed, several lofts and condos are being built, and converted from warehouses, on the open land between (right next to!) the railway tracks coming into Union and LaSalle Street Stations, and along the busy Metra Electric tracks opposite the Museum Complex and Soldier Field.
2) Not used to the noise and disruption from the proximity of bars and nightclubs, some neo-urbanites have sought to rid themselves of these "nuisances." Mind you, these were the very people who, when they resided in the suburbs, would drive or hop a Metra into the city on Friday and Saturday nights to party! Unfortunately, Mayor Daley, who usually is trying to promote what is unique and attractive about the city, sides with these modern-day Prohibitionists. Consequently, it is VERY easy to, by referendum, vote a precinct (a part of a Ward, not a police district) "dry," which results in all liquor licenses in the precinct being voided, regardless of the actions of any individual licensee!!! There is even a move afoot among the loft dwellers of the new conversions in the Merchandise Mart area to vote the precinct dry because the House of Blues is "too disruptive"! (Mind you, the people who live in Marina City, right above the House of Blues, are generally not supporting the initiative.) This is right across the river from the Loop itself!
[Here in Chicago, there are a large number of suburbanites moving back to the city. While this is generally a positive trend, there are also some recent negative consequences from people used to strict zoning laws that separate uses now living in city neighborhoods where mixed uses are the norm.
1) Once several loft residences have been built or converted in an industrial area, some of the new residents then form "concerned citizen" groups and complain to their alderman about the noise and traffic from the remaining factories and warehouses!!]
Similarly, when suburbanities move into far exurbs, they frequently complain about the noise and smells from nearby farms.
I wonder if they complain with their mouthes full ...
Or the ones who buy houses right off the end of the runway (in a subdivision named "Quiet Acres") and then complain about jet noise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can everyone say duh?!?
The city of Denver has had a barrage of noise complaints about the new airport from residents of Parker, which is 20-30 miles to the south. They've reshuffled takeoff and landing patterns, and now residents from the north are starting to complain.
Well, I don't think that fits in with this thread. Everything else seems to involve 'newbies' moving to established areas, and then complaining about what exists there since long before they decided to move in. Denver's new airport is just new. The neighborhood was there first. Although I would figure that 20-30 miles away, planes would be sufficiently high that noise wouldn't be a problem.
-Hank
(New rich demanding an end to mixed uses). You have this problem all the time in New York. The worst is Soho, where residents want to maintain manufacturing zoning (so not just anyone can live there) but try to hassle out manufacturing.
The #2 train definitely is a very long ride from the Bronx to Manhattan. Someone may have posted this before, but maybe the #5 Bronx Thru-Express should be expanded outside of rush hours. It could run downtown until early afternoon, and then uptown express service would start. This could continue later in the evening than the present express service. Some express service could be considered for weekends too.
That would not really work. During Rush Hours the No.2 runs about5 Min to 8 Mins. During middays the No.2 runs 10 Mins. With the No.5 its 5 Mins between E 180 St to 149 St. Also there is lots of Track work mainly redoing the Signals. Like the Pelham Line there will be no IRT Signals. So this will continue to cause delays. Right now the Genaral Order is only from Bronx Park East to South of E 241 St. Also you would have very heavy loaded platforms at E Tremont and Simpson St. Weekends there is no reason to do Express. The No.2 runs every 10 to 12 Mins and the No.5 every 10 Min. So there will be lots of angry people out there.
3rd Ave. el trains were labeled #8 only on maps. The #8 marking never appeared on the trains themselves. The R-12s which ran there were marked, "Shuttle".
When they introduced the two skip stop services they just took the last "character" from the alphabet- Z for the J skip siop and from the numbers- 9 (I guess they didn't want a train with two digits) for the 1 skip-stop.
How about "Crosstown Shuttle"? Between Grand Central and Times Sq.
[How about "Crosstown Shuttle"? Between Grand Central and Times Sq.]
Might be too confusing, as the G train already is known as the Crosstown Local.
How about the #42 train, since they have double numbers for other proposed routes, or express renumberings.
Of course, 42 for the Franklin Ave. shuttle would conjure up memories of Jackie Robinson. On top of that, Prospect Park isn't far at all from where Ebbets Field used to be.
How about the Jackie Robinson (or Dodger of your choice) Shuttle? You already have the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge.
It's a "B" division train, hence it would get a letter of some sort.
I agree there are too many S's; maybe they could call it the P or the I, as has been suggested.
Wayne
If it were called the P train, there might be a lot of jokes about the Franklin Shuttle (although the TA did propose a P train during the Amtrak strike which would have gone from the Sutphin Blvd E station to 34th Street/8th Avenue, but it never happened). And the letter I looks too much like the number 1. P might not be so bad, you never know.
Let's not make change for just the sake of change. Let's not confuse the customers. Just leave them alone. Plus, the cars may not have the rollsigns. The added expense is not worth it.
How about rename Franklin Ave to Fulton St and Botanice Garden to Eastern Parkway. The shuttle already runs on Franklin or near it, why have the last stop called Franklin Ave. Botanic Gardens is about three blocks away from the station. It would probably be better if it was called Eastern Parkway especially with the transfer being put in place.
How about rename Franklin Ave to Fulton St and Botanice Garden to Eastern Parkway? The shuttle already runs on Franklin or near it, why have the last stop called Franklin Ave. Botanic Gardens is about three blocks away from the station. It would probably be better if it was called Eastern Parkway especially with the transfer being put in place.
[How about rename Franklin Ave to Fulton St]
Agreed. That would make more sense.
[and Botanic Garden to Eastern Parkway]
No, the Botanic Gardens are a tourist attraction and giving them a subway stop will entice people not only to come to Brooklyn but also to use that underused train.
How about giving it a name with a railroad flavor. The "PP&B" for "prospect Park & Back."
Regards,Larry
Let's call it the "Franklin Avenue Local" just because it sounds good :)
--Mark
I don't like the letter "I" because it is too easily confused with the number "1". Why don't we name it the X train?
Because that would violate Rudy's anti-porn initiatives.
-Hank :)
Looks like they've found more serious problems on the Manhattan Bridge, and the've had to close part of it. Fortunately, its the vehicular part -- this time.
I'm amazed NY1 or Newsradio88 hasn't picked this up. They are treating it as a traffic problem, rather than yet another ominous sign for the future of the bridge -- and the future of parts of Brooklyn if it isn't replaced. Nothing on their websites, although 88 links to Metrocommute, which has annouced it (with no details).
BTW the guy who was in charge of the City Planning study of the issue, which I proposed, has left, and the study seems to have sputtered out. Hope they pick it up again.
Sorry I can't help you today, Larry, as I'm at work in Boston (but I'll be in NYC for a weekend of subway-transit-and-weather-together this weekend :-)
You might send an email to editor@newsradio88.com to suggest this as a topic for a story.
It was listed as simply a "loose expansion joint".
--Mark
Lets try to name as many movies as possible that were filmed in the New York Subway:
Pelham 123
Short Walk to Daylight
French Connection
The FBI Story
Ghost
Serpico
Ninja Turtles
Money Train
Give it try to name somemore.
How about "Blue Steel" with Jamie Lee Curtis and Ron Silver( Veronica'sCloset).
In the final scenes of the film, the two had a shootout in an "IND station at Wall St".
This I noticed as an error:)
Also:
Nighthawks (with R-1/9s)
Class of '44 (featuring Triplex units!)
Exorcist (very brief scene of a train of R-17s at 34th-Penn Station)
There is another film whose title escapes me which features Henry Winkler (aayyyyyy!) and possibly Robin Williams; both work in a mortuary. The 42nd St. shuttle is used. Graveyard Shift, perhaps?
The Transit Museum's Triplex' were used in early scenes in the "Malcolm X" epic.
Also, let us not forget one of Sylvester Stallone's first roles was that of a subway mugger in Woody Allen's "Bananas".
Seashore's Denver & South Platte Birney Car #1 was used in the movie. I was there when the scene was shot (a Christmas week in the early 90's?) on the Brooklyn waterfront. We brought the car down by flatbed truck, and it stayed in Brooklyn for a week while the scene was set, rehearsed, and shot. Actual 600v overhead was put up by the production crew! In the scene that made the movie, the car was expertly run by Tom Santarelli, son of one of Seashore's founders.
Before my grandparents passed away, they told me, "It's too bad you'll never get to ride on a trolley on the streets of Brooklyn." Well, not only have I ridden on one, but I got to run one!
It must have been regauged when Seashore got it. I say that because if it ran in Denver, it would have had narrow gauge trucks. Denver's streetcars ran on 3' 6" gauge track. Birneys were used in Fort Collins; I'm not sure of the track gauge there, but it may have been standard 4' 8.5".
[Also:
Exorcist (very brief scene of a train of R-17s at 34th-Penn Station)]
This was one of the very few scenes in a mainstream movie to use a subliminal shot. You can see it quite clearly using the slow-motion feature on a VCR.
There is another film whose title escapes me which features Henry Winkler (aayyyyyy!) and possibly Robin Williams; both work in a mortuary. The 42nd St. shuttle is used. Graveyard Shift, perhaps?
I think it was called "Night Shift"
The Movies List is up to 30 entries. I have probably 10 more to add. I combed thru 20,000 SubTalk posts to find all the prior posts with "movie" and/or "film" in the title and added almost all those mentioned to the list.
Enjoy!
-Dave
In numerous Seinfeld episodes, especially early on, Jerry and Co. are shown talking while seated on a crowded subway train, with a flash to a view of the train speeding along from outside after the punch line is delivered. I believe it was the west side IRT, and the long period of rolling along implied an express (the train never stopped, and the doors never opened, in these interludes).
A couple of others which you may or may not have:
Gloria w/Genna Rowland (IRT an PATH)
Ghost w/Demi Moore (too obvious to miss)
Dressed to Kill w/Angie Dickenson, Michael Caine (IRT)
The Equalizer, Memories of Manon (IRT in opening credits)
Kojak - The Bellarus Files (8th Avenue subway)
Mr. Wonderful w/Matt Dillon (R-32 @ Bergen Lower)
A Stranger is Watching w/Kate Mullagrew & Rip Torn (Abandoned B division cars and under grand Central Station)
More to come
There is also Crocodile Dundee (the first movie). They rode the subway-was filmed at lower 42nd IND and lower 9th ave. West End.
I almost forgot: there are a few subway clips in Where Were You When the Lights Went Out? This is a comedy which takes place during the East Coast blackout of November 1965. Featured are R-1/9s signed up as (Todd, you're going to love this) an HH; the conductor is played by, I believe, the same gentleman who plays the Maytag repair man.
Lets add "Short Walk to Daylight" New York after an earthquake. They used an R-1/9. I believe it was filmed at the TA Museum before it was opened.
I have heard that in the 1950's there was a television show filmed in the IRT trains and yards.
Also, a Superman television episode shows a speeding "A" train. But the "train" pulling into the station looks more like a Lo V.
In "Across the Pacific", Humphrey Bogart rides a Lo V
Then there is "The Wrong Man" Henry Fonda goes home in an R-1/9 at Fifth Av. to Jackson Heights.
I have one episode of Amos & Andy where the Kingfish and Andy are commuting back abd forth on the A? train between Upper Manhattan and Brooklyn looking the the Kingfish's missing wife.
I also remember an episode of "I Love Lucy" where Lucy is riding the IRT with her head stuck in a Loving Cup.
My all time favorite sitcom 'subway' episode is from "Mad About You" where Paul & Jamie fill in for a slightly neurotic token clerk who was once one of Paul's class-mates.
I saw that Mad About You episode, too. What station was that train at in the closing credits?
Thanks for the additions, but we're duplicating now... Short Walk and Wrong Man are already in the list...
Check the Movies List to see what we've already got. If anyone has any particular subway trivia about a listed movie, you can drop me a line... (like car numbers visible stuff like that).
Thanks,
-Dave
Dave, I'm going to take a close look at my Pelham video and see if R-17 6609 is, in fact, in it. I don't believe it is, but I could be wrong. As I recall, I could see two R-17s, one of which is the last car of the train leaving 59th St. as Martin Balsam enters the subway at the very beginning of the movie; the other is part of the train during the sequence in which the rookie conductor is reviewing, out loud, the sequence of steps he takes while stopped at a station.
Well, folks, I pulled out my Pelham video last night and came up with the following:
I couldn't tell for sure if the R-17 on the end of the first train seen in the film was 6609; the car number was illegible.
The first car of the train which Martin Balsam boards at 59th St. is a current Redbird; its storm door has a single large window.
At "Grand Central", R-22 #7339 can be seen on the track across the platform, and get this: it appears to be coupled to R-10 #2973.
Wayne was right: the tilework at "28th St." is definitely IND-style. Most of the pillars are tile-encased, and there is most definitely a gap between the edge of the platform and the train. I suspect they may have used one of the outer tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and built a fake wall along the platform. There is a staircase at the extreme end of the platform, which Hoyt-Schermerhorn has.
When Pelham 1-2-3 pulls into 28th St., the number placard on 7339 is clean. As it starts to leave after being hijacked, that same number placard has red splatters on it. The last car, which is numbered 9339, is an R-21/22; its storm door has a drop-sash window.
When Martin Balsam brings the first car to a stop in the tunnel after cutting it loose from the rest of the train, the car turns out to be #7434, which is later seen at 28th St. when DCI Daniels is there.
During the scene at 28th St., when Caz Dolowicz makes his way along the platform, one of the cars in the train is #7480. I don't know about the rest of you, but that guy who plays the conductor looks and sounds an awful lot like Nipsey Russell (in any case, he is uncredited).
I wrote down car 7231 as being in the movie, but didn't notice it.
And, finally, I remembered one other film with subway footage: Hero at Large with John Ritter. I believe the Flushing line is featured.
The Flushing Line is also shown briefly at the very beginning of the David Caruso, Nicholas Cage, Helen Hunt movie, "Kiss of Death".
It's also shown briefly in beginning of the original "Death Wish". (In the original Worlds Fair paint scheme)
Dear David, Missing Items. 1. The Dutchman by Leroi Jones--entire movie/play takes place in an R1/9. Iirc Shirley Jones as terrorized blonde. 2. If you count out of town items, then Meobius, 1996, Buenos Aires, dir Gustavo Mosquera, film prof at BA univ. Basic plot--perhaps based on golden age sci-fi story from US--when a new piece of subway routing is completed it creates a "moebius" strip such that entire trains appear and dissappear from the system. Lovingly filmed in the BA system in off hours with sequences including false speed runs shot with camera affixed to train. Great tunnel footage. Have seen it twice here in Bay Area at non-commercial venues. Doubt video anytime soon but one can hope. Yours david vartanoff
Thanks. I'm not trying to catalog films featuring other cities (i.e. the recent Baltimore and Chicago lists that were posted) or television shows-- I'd be here all year. I'll make an exception for major items- like the "I Love Lucy" episode. The problem with listing TV shows is that it's impossible to get them - so what's the point of listing them...
One more that comes to mind
"Eve of Destruction" opening scene of BART but final sceen include a meeting of the major characters and a Slant 40
Total Recall with Arnold Schwartzenegger had a scene that took place in a futuristic subway station. I believe it was filmed on the Mexico City subway.
There was an original scene from "Escape from New York" which featured Kurt Russel making an escape on a MARTA train.
And also the scene from the last Superman movie, in which he stops a runaway Metropolis subway train(really a Lodon metro).
And more recently, an Alanis Morrisette video with her standing naked in a subway station(city and station unknown- My eyes began to burn. A naked Alanis Morrisette is not a pretty site!)
[And also the scene from the last Superman movie, in which he stops a runaway Metropolis subway train(really a Lodon metro).]
Also in Superman 3, there's a scene with Clark Kent and Lana Lang and Lana Lang's kid sitting on a NY City subway (I don't know which line). The train is moving and all of a sudden the lights go out and the passangers start to scream and the kid says to his mom "Mommy, what's happening?" and she replies, "I don't know honey." I remember thinking at the time that it was an odd reaction to such a common occurence, but then I guess subway lights don't go out on other systems.
Some shows are available - Jackie Gleason's Honeymooners and Star Trek for sure, and I think Lucy also (but am not 100% positive of that).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahh you know I never realized that. In fact, the I Love Lucy ep. "Lucy and the Loving Cup" is on Vol 9. of the I Love Lucy CLassics collection. Must go order.. must go order.. :)
-Dave
again out of town--Subway-- most of the story takes place in the Paris Metro including folks who live down there.
Crocodile Dundee (the first one) ends on a subway platform. Is this in NY?
Yes it is. It is the unused and abandoned lower level of the 9th Avenue BMT station, which was dressed up as Times Square. Look closely and you can see the "9th Avenue" tablets on the wall. This
station on the border of Borough Park and Sunset Park in Brooklyn.
The upper level, which is outdoors just below grade, serves the "B" line though they don't use the center track. The lower level has been closed for over twenty years. It used to serve the Culver Line going out to Coney Island via McDonald Avenue. There was a shuttle link between the "B" and "F" lines but that has been demolished. The Culver Shuttle trains used this lower level.
Wayne
If I'm not mistaken, the lower level at 9th Ave. was disguised as 59th St. Columbus Circle. There are AA and B information signs visible above the tracks.
And, speaking of Crocodile Dundee, the sequel also has a subway sequence featuring an A train of R-38s at Hoyt-Schermerhorn on one of the abandoned outer tracks. There are door chime sounds dubbed in as the doors close. The most amazing part is that Hoyt-Schermerhorn isn't wearing a disguise - the station pillars really do say "Hoyt"!
[The most amazing part is that Hoyt-Schermerhorn isn't wearing a disguise - the station pillars really do say "Hoyt"! ]
Probably free advertising for Hoyt Cinemas
I just saw another one--"City Across the River". The film was set in Brooklyn. They showed the WIlly B and trains across the Willy B.
Another movie, which admittedly I haven't seen, but must have numerous subway scenes is "Just Another Girl on the IRT." Has anyone seen this?
Here's the URL for a review of the movie:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/WomensStudies/FilmReviews/girl-on-irt-mcalister
Hi Larry, I have been in touch with my book man about "A History of the New York City Subway System" and the first question he asked me was "Who was the publisher?" I didn't know. He is not familiar with the book but is willing to try to locate it for me. He asked if I could find out the publisher's name and year published. I know that you said 1976 and 1977 but I think you were referring to the three separate books. Can you help me with the necessary information?
Regards,Karl B.
It's in the Subway Bibliography - Rare and Early Books section. It was self published by Joe Cunningham. Good luck finding it. I have one of the three books (Vol 3. Independent and City Ownership) which was a real find...
-Dave
An updated edition was printed in 1993 containing all three
volumes bound into one book. My copy says "This book is
reissued in a limited printing of 550 copies". Credited as
publisher are John Schmidt, Robert Giglio and Kathleen Lang.
Giglio is a TA motorman and was an ERA member at the time. He
sold the books at several ERA meetings. He might still have
some, or you could check with Arnold Joseph.
My thanks to our host Dave P, and also Jeff H for the information! It does sound as if I don't have much chance of finding a copy of that book. I don't know this Arnold Joseph but I think I heard somewhere that he is a book dealer. I will pass all of the information on to my book dealer in hopes that he will know the man. It does sound like a lost cause though, I probably have a better chance of riding the old Lexington Ave EL in 1999 than ever finding the book in question.
Thanks Again, Karl B.
Karl: David answered your question about the publishers. Arnold Joseph is still listed in the Manhattan Yellow Pages at 1140 Broadway.The telephone number is 212-532-0019. He sometimes shows up at railfan shows. Do not make a trip to his store in New York unless you check with him first as he maintains a somewhat fluid schedule.
Regards,Larry
Fluid is putting it mildly! But he is a delightful gentleman with a wealth of knowledge and material - well worth the effort.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I see that you have had dealings with Mr. Joseph too.
Larry
Yes, a couple of years ago. As it turned out, he didn't have what I needed, but he was a pleasure to deal with nonetheless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have made contact with several book dealers including Mr. Joseph. It does not sound like there is much chance of finding any of those three books or the reprint. At least I am on record with them as interested in the books. Thanks everyone for the information.
Perhaps someone knows, or can direct me to a resource that will tell me, the following measurements? I need them for a story I am writing.
The distance below street level of the platform at Times Square for the 1, 2, 3, 9.
The distance below street level of the platform at Times Square for the 7.
The length of the track of the Shuttle train between Times Square and Grand Central.
The distance from where 7 trains go, west of Times Square (it's a loop, right?) and Times Square station, say the center of the station platform, roughly.
The approximate distance between the centers of the platforms of the following 7 train stations: Times Square and 5th Avenue, 5th Avenue and Grand Central, and the distance from Grand Central to where the East River begins.
The width of the platform at the 7 train station of 5th Avenue
Your help is very much appreciated.
Jeff Benz
I can tell you that the 42nd St.shuttle is 0.8 miles long.
Otherwise,????????????????????????????????????????????
> The distance from where 7 trains go, west of Times Square (it's a
> loop, right?) and Times Square station, say the center of the
> station platform, roughly.
I'd say about 900 feet, and the end of the #7 does not end as a loop. It dead-ends against the lower level of the 42nd St/8th Ave IND.
--Mark
I must give resounding applause for all responsible for the historical Philly transit photos.
I'll fish around to see if Ican find any.
Mostly thank Joe Testagrose- he's not a subtalk reader but you can write him at joet@nycsubway.org. I just put up a load of his photos this past weekend- Trolleys (general), Trolleys (PCCs), and Rapid Transit/Commuter Rail (into which I lumped the P&W/NHSL).
Visit the Philadelphia Pages.
-Dave
This morning while waiting for the PATH train @ the WFC I noticed that over on track 1 workers were installing subway columns, signs, benches, walls garbage cans. One sign on the wall said West 4th Street. I couldn't get their attention but one of them had a Law & Order Jacket on. Is there a connection that a subway train can be brought in or probably just use a PATH train, or maybe no train at all.
They'll just use a Path train if necessary.
I was just in the WTC but didn't notice what was going on.
Law & Order has used the Number 1 Platform for shoots before, and they just call it "the subway". The episode I remember had Briscoe and the partner du season interview a subway employee about a shooting on a train.
-Dave
They had an episode that I caught on A&E a few weeks back, where they passed off Hoboken Terminal for Penn Station. In a later episode (one of the 'Homicide' crossovers) they use the real Penn Station. Production companies will use whatever they can for sets. All the better that a scene depicting NYC is actually SHOT in NYC.
-Hank
Hey at least they are not using Toronto for the shoot.
To Dave and all the Subtalkers:
Looking at the activity on this part of the site since the new server was activated, I see two changes. First, the number of posts and posters has greatly increased. Second, many items are being hashed through again as new people ask the old questions. These include:
Second Av. Subway
Movies
Why some lines do or do not run express (especially BMT Broadway)
IND Second System
Manhattan (&Williamsburg) Bridge
Deep and High Stations
Lights, Signs, GE vs Westinghouse, Car Features ...
Astoria & Corona Joint Operation
etc.
Some of this stuff is in the FAQ, but a message to new posters explaining where to find some of this material (perhaps a link to prior threads in the archives) might cut down on the numnber of new posts on old issues.
Anybody have any new ideas on this,
Since we moved to the new server, Subtalk hits more than doubled (to 75,000+ a week); the speed is keeping people here and reading and posting more. People who were scared off because it was just too damn slow are coming back.
As for the topics... well, there's a link to the FAQ at the top of the page. Managing links to old threads is a pain in the ass. There are 27,000 subtalk posts in the archives and to search through them is a major impact to the server (which is why only the most recent 2,500 are available - this number was "the most recent 1,000" prior to the server move).
The FAQ doesn't cover all those things you list (but it should). Maybe some people could write some new articles for the FAQ.
-Dave
The board is a living thing and people come and go
Just because something has been discussed dosent mean that everything has been said or that someone else dosent want to talk about it. If it is something I have had enough of or no interest in I don't read the thread.
The new server is working great and I am pleased to see the interest in this site and transit.
To Dave and all who keep this thing running THANKS
With reference to the new movie list.
The Pope of Greenwich Village, if I recall correctly has not just an incidental background subway but a scene that takes place on the platform, the train pulls in and a character gets off and everything.
THE WARRIORS is listed as 1967 but the film was from the early 80s. 1980 if I had to guess.
If TV shows count, then how about the Michael Jackson Video for the song BAD, shot in the subway, (Transit Museum I suppose.) and directed by Martin Scorcesse.
Let us not forget the film THE WIZ directed by Sydney Lumet. There is a very interesting subway scene in there. If I recall correctly. And wasn't Michael Jackson in that one too?
Also, the film MY DINNER WITH ANDRE (directed by Louis Malle) has a small sequence in the beginning where Wallace Shawn rides the subway to meet his old friend Andre Gregory. This is a very nice and natural look at the subway around 1982. You can tell that they did it on the sly on a real train in service; hand held with almost no crew. Maybe just a cameraman and Wally.
Wasn't there a John Cassevettes film that had scenes shot in the subway? I seem to recall seeing a photo of the actor in a scene where he is playing someone in a stupor aboard an empty R-30 type car.
Anyone have any ideas?
Yes, there is at least one. Cassevettes is a good place to look for New York stuff and subways.
More thoughts include.
The film SORRY, WRONG NUMBER which was based on the original stage play in which the sound of the passing EL is used to drown out the scream of a woman being murdered.
TWELVE ANGRY MEN also based on a stage production and also directed by Sydney Lumet. Henry Fonda is forman of a jury which includes Jack Warden, Lee J. Cobb and E.G. Marshal. They deliberate on a murder case which involves the timing of a passing EL.
AFTER HOURS directed by Martin Scorcesse has a scene where Griffin Dunn tries to enter a Greenwich Village subway late at night but the price has been jacked up to $1.50 from 90 cents. He can't afford the inflated price and tries pleads with the token clerk (funny) before trying to jump the turnstyle. A cop is waiting.
The recent film release WINGS OF THE DOVE has a few shots of the London Underground in the Victorian Era including a steam engine.
Is the film TURK 187 not about a graffiti artist?
Another movie, "Cry Terror" with Rod Steiger as a kidnapper/extortionist. He's hit by 600 volts and then by a subway train near the end of the movie. I'm not sure if it was NYCT or PATH, however.
One of TV's great villians was killed in the subway...Frank Nitti, played by Bruce Gordon, falls off a subway platform in front of a speeding (Chicago?) train, ending his long-running role as Eliot Ness' chief antagonist in "The Untouchables" series. It's one of those speeded-up shots of what appears to be a NYC train that's used.
What a crime boss figure is doing riding the subway is never explained.
Many "Untouchables" shows used subway platforms as locales, usually when Ness is getting stool-pigeon information. As this was a Desilu 1950s production, verissimilitude is at a minimum.
In real life Nitti committed suicide, shortly after the end of World War II after having managed to stay alive through all of the gangster period.
I can't believe I forgot this one ... "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" starring Charlton Heston and James Franciscus. They enter a "cave" and then realize it was an entrance to the "Queensboro Plaza" subway station. Then there are lots of scenes with the "cave dwellers" at what looks like the lower levels of Grand Central Station.
--Mark
Sorry, just had to do it....
-Hank :)
It sounds like a P. D. Q. Bach title...
Don't forget the movie called " Beat It " made in 1984? I think. The story is about a guy who love to graffiti on the subway cars and someone who trying to paint his subway cars. Both of them got killed while touching third rail in the end of the movie.
Yeah, that was 'Turk 182'. It's about a guy getting revenge on the city for his brother, a disabled firefighter. IIRC, it involves a scene of the guy playing the mayor unveiling what is supposed to be the first train of graffitti-free subway cars.....which have the phrase 'Tyler Knew' painted on the side....
Long time since I've seen that movie.
-Hank
Your guess about the release of The Warriors is pretty close; it came out in 1979.
I have data on the number of people employed in the city each year back to 1950, income back to 1969, "Hub Bound Vehicles" back to the 1940s, housing production back to 1921, etc.
The available information on the number of people riding the trains and buses, however, is spotty. The "Facts and Figures" on the MTA's website gives a one-point overview, and "Under The Sidewalks of NY" has selected data in a footnote. The MTA issues a press release every now and then. But year by year, day by day data must exist somewhere, and now that the trends are up it might be really good to see it and post it. I was hoping it would be in "Facts and Figures", but it wasn't.
Can someone get it/tabulate it/post it? I'd like to see annual data for buses and subways back to 1960. I'd also be interested in ridership by day of the week and time of day, if available. If it exists on paper and needs to be entered into spreadsheets, I'd be willing to help.
I was also hoping that the MTA would post its budget -- revenues by source and expenditures by object -- on the Web for each agency. I guess some things are not intended for public scrutiny.
I would be interested in ridership by station. I know that years ago this data used to be available in the TA's "Transit Record." Does anyone know if this data is still availabel? Thanks.
EYE believe the info in the MTA big data base. Here at one of the "privates" we know riders by route & by day & by month ... well actually the TA doesn't know what we call a "route", but that's another story.
Neither eye nor anyone in DOT has access to "TA" data, you can understand that. We just wish THEY didn't have access to our data, but that still another story.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have available to them a timetable from that time, Late 68 and 69? I'm curious to know what the running time of the NX was from Stillwell av to 59th ST and 4th Av. The rest is something I can cull from much more recent timetables but the straight shot express from Stillwell to 59 is a little mystery of mine. Any hard data would be most appreciated.
Here was a funky "Twilight Zone" like movie where Vietnam vet Tim Robbins has eerie flashbacks from the war that include faceless humans riding Redbirds in Williamsburg/Greenpoint!
Besides the Williamsburg Bridge closing, do anybody know about any other upcoming service changes in the near future? (Not talking about what I see on the Transit Authority website.)
Service will also change along the A and C lines in Brooklyn, with C local and A express at all times except nights. And normal service (B and Q) will resume along 63rd Street to 21st Street in Queensbridge.
In addition to that, report are that the F will again run express in Brooklyn during rush hours.
Michael
" F will again run express in Brooklyn during rush hours. "
If that is so, I will walk from E13th to McDonnald Ave for a one seat ride to/from work (in good weather). And for go my D/Q swtich to the F.
Those who claim that they think they know that F Express service is coming back or not......please....the pick boards do not tell you whether a train is express or not. You need to take a look at a timetable. The timetable will give you specifics as to what the exact service is.When the pick boards go up, the timetable is done and is only supposed to be superseded by a supplement schedule.
Of course if there is anyone from Operations and Planning looking in, maybe they could give us the real info. I'm presently working in the IRT and don't have the direct access to a timetable for the upcoming pick.
I have been posting the NYC TRANSIT COMMITTEE AGENDAS
---there is not mention of new Routes,or changes other than the A/C
I will be posting the March Agenda Shortly
THAT's what I said I saw the timetables and there is no exp service in Brooklyn on the F line any time soon.
I'm sorry O.W.K. Sometimes i'll miss a post here and there and I may duplicate some information. I will try to be a little more considerate and not step on any toes.
I do however want to reiterate that pick boards are deceiving because running times fluctuate at different times of the day. The only way to tell what kind of service there is (express,local, what corridor,etc) is by looking at the timetable.
YOU are right .No need to say your sorry.Take care and be safe out there.
Where do you get your info from I saw the work programs and timetables for "F" service,there is no exp.service in Brooklyn for this upcoming pick
Unless they can fix up Bergen Street's lower level in a hurry, I don't think the MTA is going to be running F expresses non-stop from 7th Ave. to Jay St. anytime soon. That would really get the Caroll Gardens people up in arms.
Not if they have V's or alternating F's running local (They might complain about the headways of the F's, so the V idea is better)
The F express was almost a reality as both this and the weekend C & A was in the 1995 proposals, but then cut by Pataki.
I was going by information I remember seeing elsewhere on this site.
I do not see the pick charts, so I will assume you are correct and there is no F express service. However, when I said F express, I was thinking the Church Avenue-Kings Highway segment only. And I heard/saw that was a done deal.
Michael
Does anyone know where (if possible ) I can get hold of Daniel L. Turner's paper "Comprehensive Rapid Transit System" of 1920?.His paper ,in altered form, led to the developement of the IND.Any answers gratefully received.
The passageway above the 6th Avenue IND subway allow one to walk from 34th Street Station to 42nd Street Station. The reason for the passageway was to allow a transfer to the old 6th Avenue Elevated Line at it's 38th Street Station. Good idea back in the 1930's however it was no longer needed a couple of years later when the 6th Avenue EL was torn down.
Is that passage way still open??? I walked through it once and that was before they closed that passageway between the 34th St-6th Ave IND/BMT and Penn Station
No, it's closed off. Ironically, by the time the 6th Ave. line opened in December 1940, the el was long gone.
The passageway was closed several years ago for security reasons, following a rape. In a way that's quite a loss. Having an underground passageway sure would come in handy during bad weather.
The passageway was just an isolated link. That's why it was less traveled, which is why it was unsafe, which is why it was closed. I think it would be great if we had an integreted underground newtork with retail, like Montreal.
If the passageway along the #7 were extended to Grand Central, the passageway from Herald Square to Penn was reopened, a passageway was built along 6th Avenue up to the Rockefeller Center network, etc, that could be the start of something.
[The passageway was just an isolated link. That's why it was less traveled, which is why it was unsafe, which is why it was closed. I think it would be great if we had an integreted underground newtork with retail, like Montreal.]
Also consider the existing corridor that runs along the west side of the Herald Square station outside of the fare-control area. Even though this corridor is wide and brightly lit, it's still a pretty gruesome sight, used as a bedroom (and sometimes restroom) for skells.
It sure would make alot of LIRR commuters happy to have a indoor way to get to the 6th Ave lines from Penn Station. It may only be one long block, but in bad weather its a pain, especially in the AM/PM rush. Many people use their own indoor routes, ending up going thru Macy's, etc. Is therr a way (maybe thru SubTalk) to get public opinon heard about reopening this passageway? Many would sign a petition at Penn Station.
[It sure would make alot of LIRR commuters happy to have a indoor way to get to the 6th Ave lines from Penn Station. It may only be one long block, but in bad weather its a pain, especially in the AM/PM rush. Many people use their own indoor routes, ending up going thru Macy's, etc. Is therr a way (maybe thru SubTalk) to get public opinon heard about reopening this passageway? Many would sign a petition at Penn Station.]
I'd sure like it if the Herald Square-Penn Station passageway (under the south sidewalk of 33rd Street) were reopened. It would have saved me from being soaked on more than one occasion :-)
Unfortunately, I doubt that public opinion would get this passageway reopened. Thanks to crime and skell problems, and their accompanying liability concerns, the Transit Authority is reluctant to maintain passageways outside fare-controlled areas. As I noted earlier in this thread, one look at the much-wider and much-better-lit corridor along the west side of the Herald Square station (into which the closed 33rd Street passageway opens) gives some justification for the TA's policy.
There are a couple of other reasons why the 33rd Street passageway is unlikely to reopen. Gimbel's department store had paid for some or all of its maintenance costs. Once Gimbel's failed, the TA was unwilling to shoulder the entire cost itself. I also believe that the lower level of Sbarro's restaurant blocks off the west end of the passageway. Finally, after years of disuse the passageway probably is in very poor condition.
There is a reasonably long passageway here in Boston... it connects the Red/Green Line station at Park Street with the Red/Orange Line station at Downtown Crossing (yes... it parallels the Red line for this stretch). It is officially called the "Winter Street Concourse" as it is below Winter Street (Winter turns into Summer at Washington Street :-).
The tunnel is well lit and clean; there are occasional pan-handlers or musicians but rarely a skell. One reason this passageway may succeed is due to the fact that the Boston subway shuts down from about 1:00 - 5:00 a.m.
As a compromise for the NYC passageways, could NYCT reopen one or more, with gates at either end, and close it during night hours? This would let them clean it; but at the same time leave it open during busy hours so that we patrons can keep warm and dry. I'm sure that with creative gating, they could even put the Herald Square to 8th Avenue passageway within fare control if that would help.
But I agree restoring that corridor in particular would be a tremendous benefit to the riding public.
[As a compromise for the NYC passageways, could NYCT reopen one or more, with gates at either end, and close it during night hours? This would let them clean it; but at the same time leave it open during busy hours so that we patrons can keep warm and dry. I'm sure that with creative gating, they could even put the Herald Square to 8th Avenue (actually 7th) passageway within fare control if that would help.]
That would seem to be a sensible idea. Closing the 33rd Street (Herald Square-Penn Station) passageway at night would be no great loss because Penn Station commuters are its most likely users, and their numbers dwindle after rush hour. If it's only kept open when relatively busy, crime should be less of an issue.
The more I think of it, some of the skell problem with the existing north-south corridor along the west side of the Herald Square station might be attributable to the fact that it's so wide. There's plenty of space for skells to beg, sprawl out, and relieve themselves (note that the last item is not conjecture but based on my personal observation). On the other hand, I believe the 33rd Street passageway is much narrower, which might limit its attraction to skells.
Of course, there's still the problem with the (possible) lack of access on the west end of the passageway, and physical deterioration.
(Width of passageways -- less problem with skells). Montreal obviously does not have NYC's concentration of drug abusers and mentally ill people, but it does have them. They are on the street in a particular part of town, and in the rail station, but not in the underground city. Why? Do people sack out in the passageways under Rockefeller Center? Why not?
I think the key for security is activity, and an overnight shutdown. The Montreal underground doesn't have passageways with tile walls on each side, it has retail and restaurants abutting the walkways, which pass through office complexes and shopping centers. All those people keeps the possibility of attack low. Moreover, I'm not sure of this but I think the whole thing shuts down overnight, beginning at a late hour, like Grand Central.
Underground is a great place for late night entertainment -- the activity is less disturbing to neighbors since there are none, and if you get a little tipsy you're going home by train anyway. I think NYC could use a system like Montreals, if it is lined with commercial space.
"I think the key for security is activity, and an overnight shutdown. The Montreal underground doesn't have passageways with tile walls on each side, it has retail and restaurants abutting the walkways, which pass through office complexes and shopping centers. All those people keeps the possibility of attack low. Moreover, I'm not sure of this but I think the whole thing shuts down overnight, beginning at a late hour, like Grand Central."
It's exactly the same with the aforementioned Pedway system in Chicago. The walkways are lined with shops, and though not all the spaces are rented, enough are, and with enough of a mix of stores (cleaners, barbers, fast-food restaurants, travel agents, a food court near the Courthouse, etc.), that there is good traffic. The Pedway includes a long windowfront of, and several entrances to, Marshall Field's department store.
Here is another solution to the passageway issue. Have the TA put the Herald Square--Penn Station corridor under fare control and also look into installing airport type "moving walkways". This would promote more usage since the moving sidewalks could provide a respite for weary feet. Plus, by placing these implments along the walls, this cuts down on space for skells to camp. Also with the NYPD placing more patrol officers on bicycle, a handful of cops could cover the 4snd Street mezzanine on the 6th Avenue line, have a straight shot to the Herald Square Complex and then again over into the Penn Station area via the re-opened crosstown corridor. The fencing could also be arranged to include the Bryant Park pedestrian walkway to the 5th Avenue Station on the 7 could also be accomodated. Imagine being able to people mover it from Penn to Herald Square, then after a short walk from the end of one conveyor to another for the standing ride to 4snd Street and then after another short walk a one stop subway ride to Grand Central? A similiar approach could be employed for the Times Square-Port Authority pedestrain tunnel, with moving sidewalks and bicycle cops.
Some other places to put moving sidewalks.
--Between the Lexington IRT Mezzanine and the Times Square shuttle platforms at Grand Central.
--The tunnel beneath Bryant Park and the Library connecting the Sixth Avenue to the 7 at 5th Avenue.
--Between the World Trade Center shopping mall entrance to the stub-end terminal and the Chambers Street IND Mezz.
Hows about placing one over track 2 of the TS shuttle, providing an option of waiting for the train, or goiung by foot.
Actually, I recall a plan being proposed in the 1960s for replacing the 42nd St. Shuttle trains with moving sidewalks.
Was this before or after the 1964 fire?
Sbarro's does not block the tunnel. The tunnel is on the other side of the at mezzanine adjacent to the stairs to the south side of 33rd St. (Sbarro is on the north side). If you're at the toke booth (where they've moved it--against the south wall), and you go to the left up the few steps, there's a door right in front of you, and the stair to the street to the right. The door is the tunnel.
They should try to bring it within the fare controlled area. I was hoping that was what they were doing when they were reoing the area, but with the booth against the wall, it would probably be harder to connect the passage directly to the #1 platform.
Another idea, someone mentioned, was a moving sidewalk.
Also, I always wanted there to be the 41st St passage extended to 6th Av, and from 5th Av 7 station to GCT. Also on 6th Av from 42nd to the 47th station complex. That would really be a cool underground network. As a teen, I was always fascinated by the extent ot the passages that were there.
Almost, but not quite.
The passageway, with an entrance/exit at W. 38th Street, was compensation to merchants along Sixth Avenue who feared a drop-off in business after the subway opened, because it didn't have a 38th Street station as the "El" had had.
David
I remember walking through this passageway during the summer of 1970. I did not know the history behind it with the 6th Av. "L". I also walked the 34th St. passage between Penn. Sta. and the IND/BMT a number of times during the 60's (most often during the evenings - leaving ERA NY Div. meetings - taking the D/F to 34th St. and walking over to Penn Sta. for the LIRR.
I think its a real shame that both passageways have been closed. They greatly benefitted the commuter/traveler/railfan during bad weather. They provided, as well, a unique, long, underground walk - something else to make Manhattan and N.Y.C. special. Especially after the transfer was open from the IND to the IRT at 42nd St., you could walk from the IND entrance at 32nd St./8th Ave. all the way up the the corner of 42nd and Fifth - that was something!
Such long underground walks are quite possible in Chicago, using the world famous "Pedway" system. It is actually not famous at all, almost an inside secret, but it does stetch through many parts of the loop, and is a big advantage for commuters (rail and el) in the nasty winters there!
FYI, in New York, it's an 'el'. In Chicago, it's the 'L'.
Don't ask me why....
-Hank
It was closed a few years ago after someone was attacked there.
[It was closed a few years ago after someone was attacked there.]
So we should all be punished because of one person's inhumanity?
I have the movie taped and I just fast-forwarded through it to see the car numbers. At the start of the movie the conductor is in 7434.
The lead car (hi-jacked) is 7339 and as far as I can see it was used in all subsequent scenes. The train right behind Pelham 123 is headed by 7439
There's a certain irony in the R-22s being used, because of all the IRT equipment that arrived between 1955 and 1964, the R-21/22s were probably the least used trains on the Pelham line. It was the mainstay of the R-17s, R-28s and the R-33/36s over the past 35 years, the R-21/22s tended to hang out on the 7th Ave line more, or if they were on the Lex, on the 4 and 5.
But for dramatic purposes, the drop sash window at the front of the R-21/22 probably worked better for the filmmakers. I don't know how they'd deal with the transverse cab modifications that will be standard on the IRT a few years from now.
AT Grand Central the supervisor got off and boarded the express. I used the slow motion feature of my VCR-the express train car baorded by supervisor was 7399.
At what point in the movie does that occur? I know that Mr. Mattson, the veteran conductor, gets off at "Grand Central" before the train is hijacked, but we don't know if he does, in fact, change to an express.
BTW, if you listen carefully in that sequence, you can hear an unmistakeable "kssss" sound just before the doors open. It is the exact same sound emitted by the R-10s as the DRO triggers are moved by the conductor. That's fine and good, except for one thing: the R-22s had electric door engines, which naturally didn't make that sound.
The reason I say express is that he walked across to another train. Therefore it had to be an express train. The noise, which I did not pick up may have been another train on the uptown side which was not shown?
I was just on the City of New York Civil Service Web site. The application period is March 3 to 23. Good luck to all
OK David! How and where do I get an application? Can I go to 370 Jay and get an application there (I will be in town on March 15)?
Is there a fee?
Where's the web site?
Wayne
You can get all Applications at 18 Washington Street in Manhattan.
Take the NO.4 or 5 to Bowling Green or the No.1/9 or N,R TO Rector St.
Wayne the rest is in your email.
Just to add that the agency at 18 Washington Street (Right where the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel comes up out of the ground) is the City's Department of Citywide Administrative Services and is not related in any way to the TA or MTA. They run all civil service tests.
You can get the conductor exam notice and all other city civil service exam notices from:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/html/ocexams.html
You must have ACROBAT READER to read the notices.
An adv in Tuesdays NY Times, that initially looks like a news item
(you know the kind they have to preface with "Advertisement") gives some clues to the future here in NYC.
- Wash. DC is getting first Smart Card sys in US, Chicago will be next, and since the suits there talk to the suits in NYC can we be far behind ? Locally they have admitted that they are "studying" it.
- London: Cubic is awarded 17 year $1.75 Billion "Prestige/TranSys" contract for automated pass gates, upgraded ticketing mach, new bus fareboxes & maint in greater London transit system.
- You'll also find Cubic at: Wash. DC; San Fran; Atlanta; Hong Kong; Seoul; Sydney; (two cities in) China; Sinapore; Kuala Lumpur.
Should you want to read the entire three column adv, goto page B20
Mr t__:^)
Can NYC be far behind? YES!!!
About a year ago a couple of banks (Chase and Citibank to be specific) ventured on a joint experiment on the upper West Side. The test lasted about a year and was a dismal failure.
There are no known plans to resurrect the project in the near future unless the technology improves and the cost goes down. One of the drawbacks was the reluctance of merchants to spend the $$$ to buy the terminals required to process a smart card. The present equipment that most stores have can only read and not write.
At this point in time Debit cards are still only now cacthing on for purchases (and those are limited).
I won't hold my breath wating for smart cards in NY. Besides, who knows if they will work well in Chicago?
But what are the advantages of using Smart Cards for the subway?
Smart/proximity cards don't get swiped/dipped. The customer leaves the card in their wallet/pocketbook & just gets it near the reader.
Advantages:
- Card is automatically read comming & going
- Card stores much more data, i.e. debit card for use elsewhere
Disadvantage:
- The card is much thicker
- If stolen you have more to loose
Mr t__:^)
I can also think of another disadvantage and that is inadvertant reads. I.e. i'm standing by the turnstiles waiting for someone meanwhile I'm close enough for my card to have been read. Believe me the readers have to be pretty strong not to have to hold the card right up to it (like other proximity card systems I've seen-- my building at home and my building at work).
-Dave
(Inadvertant reads) I can just imagine teens getting stabbed in fights because someone else went through as their card was read. Or cops busting some kid who fell victim to that and decided to jump the turnstile, as the real villain gets away.
In a turnstile situation, smart card readers would need to have a maximum effective read distance of approximately 1/3 the distance between turnstile readers - not a very great distance. If you wanted to avoid taking the card out of your wallet/purse/etc., you would have to have your wallet/purse/etc. on a designated side (or it might be read by the adjacent turnstile, not yours). Also, the user would have to carry their transit smart card separately from any other smart card in their wallet/purse/etc. - proximity of two or more cards normally confuses the readers and nothing gets read. I have two cards, depending on which building I'm entering at work, and I must separate them or I can't get in.
An additional consideration would be: if a person had more than one smart card that would be accepted by the turnstile, would both be read and debited?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In this case I'm glad the TA suits are waiting for other cities to get the bugs out of the process before embracing it here.
Mr t__:^)
It wouldn't surprise me if the current technology had as long a run as the token. Money is scarce. Now that we have the Metrocard, which is more important, a modestly better fare system or a vastly better signal system? The only way I see it changing is if the change would be very, very cheap.
Our friends in Washington D.C., and soon at the Windy City should be able to give us a pritty good idea of how they work.
P.S. Those AVM (MertoCard ATMs) are keeping Cubic very busy, but I haven't been able to find out if it's installation or problems.
Anybody have some recent experiences ... just nosy ...
Mr t__:^)
The cards are not always thick. I've seen thick proximity cards, but Drexel University student IDs have proximity chips in them, and are about as thin as a piece plastic gets - in fact, mine is much thinner than my driver's license, which just a laminated piece of paper...
Rich, Thanks for the input. I didn't know that they made them as thin as a credit card/MetroCard.
This site keeps reminding me of it's value ...
Mr t__:^)
One other thing to note about Drexel cards is that they include BOTH a proximity chip (used mainly to enter buildings on campus) and a magnetic stripe (used mainly for debit card transactions). It has to be thin to slide through mag-stripe readers. But this raises the idea of perhaps a combo Metrocard, so that the MTA wouldn't have to upgrade to proximity readers all at once...
I have a copy of Cubic's "Summer/Fall '98" newsletter. In an article about the Wash. DC system it says "The smart card contains an integrated circuit chip, read/write memory and a radio frequency inductive circuit that enables data exchange when the card is brought within two inches of the gate-mounted antenna."
I seem to recall a disk shaped divice on the side of the gate, but I can't find a copy of it in my file. So, maybe one of our Wash DC friends will confirm what the reader looks like & where it's located.
Mr t__:^)
Cubic has a web page about it. It describes the project pretty well. The pictures aren't great, but it looks like the readers are on the top of the turnstiles.
http://www.gocard.cubic.com/trans-app.html
I'll have to try it, as I only used "customer.complaint@cubic.com"
Mr t__:^)
Actually, don't let the subject line fool you- the movie called "The Incident" (circa 1967) starring Martin Sheen and Jeff Bridges' brother (can't think of his name) was about an "incident" on a NYC subway train. If there is anyone familiar with the movie, can you pleeeaseee tell me what was the make of the subway car? I have not seen the movie in years but am considering picking it up this week for $29.95 from my video dealer. I think this is an R-4 subway train but not positive. I seem to remember seeing a few station names when the train was elevated and it seemed like the train was in the Bronx on an IRT line. If so, this would disagree with my thinking that these were R-4 subway cars since R-4 cars were in BMT and IND divisions (??). Does anyone know for sure?
By the way, this movie is not for the faint at heart.....extremely racey subject matters. Very progressive movie for the 1960s.
Cheers,
MIKE
Mike Gallant, Jeff Bridges brother's name is Beau Bridges.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Charlie, thanks a million for the name Beau Bridges. It was right on the tip of my tongue....
Cheers,
MIKE
Those cars were 1939 World's Fair cars, numbered 5653-5702. It was filmed on the #4 Jerome Avenue IRT line.
I knew it, I knew it! Thanks, Jamie. My memory has served me well over the years. I just didn't know exactly which IRT subway line it was in the Bronx.
About these "1939 World's Fair" cars- were they given a R-series designation? Or was the first R-series for the IRT division was the R-11 car?
Cheers,
MIKE
The first IRT car to be assigned an "R" number was the R-11 as you mentioned. The earlier cars (such as the ones in question) were referred to as Lo-V or Hi-V cars.
Please, lets check facts before spreading misinformation.
The R11 was a BMT car.
The R12 was the first of the R-cars on the IRT....
If you really want to get technical, the R-11s were the "million dollar" cars designed for the 2nd Ave. line. They did spend most of their careers on the BMT when they did run, specifically the Brighton line and the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, and also appeared on the West End in 1968 with #3 signs. They have been discussed previously.
The "location" scenes of the movie "The Incident" was filmed on the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El, not the Jerome Avenue Line, although the signage was staged for the Jerome Line. The tunnel portal of the White Plains Road Line can also be seen (note how the W/F Low-V's change to R-types). The interiors (subway car and token booth) were set mock-ups I believe.
The cars portrayed are the 1938 IRT World's Fair Lo-Vs built by St. Louis Car Co.; the car in which the interior scenes take place is actually a very painstakingly built studio mockup of #5674. The motor sounds were all dubbed in.
I'd love to pick up a video copy myself, although I did tape it when it aired a few years back on American Movie Classics. Very gripping, if I may say so.
I agree with you, Steve. Very "gripping" movie indeed. I vividly remember being quite disturbed by it's theme. Still, it is a classic and I must have it on video.
Cheers,
MIKE
Harold Lloyd made a film in 1928 called SPEEDY which was set in New York and shot on location with great New York backdrops including The Brooklyn Bridge, Washington Square, Fifth Avenue, Steeplechase and Luna Park. In the film there is a scene where Lloyd takes his girl to Coney Island on the Subway/El. Various gags include trying to get a seat on a crowded New York subway/El in 1928! This was Lloyds last silent film and a treasure trove of New York backdrops. As I recall, Lloyd plays a cab driver obsessed with baseball. The highlight of the film comes when BABE RUTH gets into his taxi and there is a wild "silent movie" chase through the streets of New York to get to Yankee Stadium in time for the big game! Although not remembered as well as Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin, at the time, Harold Lloyd was the biggest and highest paid film star in America. Babe Ruth too was at the top of his game coming off the famous 1927 season in which he hit 60 home runs. Later that year the Yankees swept the World Series in four straight games for the second year in a row to become what is considered by most to be the greatest team in history. Every player in the starting line up made the Hall of Fame.
Not to drift far off the subway target, but your take on the 1927 Yankees is off. Not everyone on the starting team got to Cooperstown unless they took a bus tour. The catchers (split between Grabowski and Bengough), SS Mark Koenig, and 3B Joe Dugan are non-HOFers, and I'm not sure about OF Bob Meusel - don't have a guide in front of me.
Not to disparage the '27 Yankees -- I still think they are the greatest of all time, but they were not 100% Hall of Famers.
I am looking for track maps and operations information from the following companies: Central Railroad of New Jersey(CNJ), a local shortline company in Hoboken and Weehawken(NJ), and the South Brooklyn Railroad. Where can I find them on the Web or by phone?
The South Brooklyn Railway trackage is drawn out in Peter Dougherty's "Tracks of the New York Subway" book.
The South Brooklyn Railway's original right-of-way is none a memory: freight cars used to run down the middle of MacDonald Ave. The SBK trackage started at the docks by 2nd Ave. and 38th Sts. Then through the old BMT yard at 36th and continuing over to 39th Street and Fort Hamilton Pkwy. Then trains would go down McD all the way to the terminal at Ave. X and the Coney Island shops.
Check out the older postins on SBK operations. There are some interesting info on this urban shortline.
Doug aka BMTman
WELL I WAS WONDERING HOW TO OBTAIN INFORMATION CONCERNING EXAMS FOR POSITION FOR CONDUCTORS MAINLY MOTERMEN POSITIONS. I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE TRANSIT SYSTEM AND THIS WAS A DREAM OF MINE. MY FATHER WORKED FOR TRANSIT BUT UNFORTUNATLY WE DO NOT COMMUNCATE. IF ANYONE HAS ANY INFORMATION ON EXAMS, DATE OF EXAMS WHERE INFORMATION COULD DBE OBTAINED OR TEST PREPARATION BOOKS FOR MOTORMEN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I CAN BE EMAILED AT lionheart_46@hotmail.com
Try reading a few threads down about "Conductor Exam Now Out"
-Dave
THANKS DAVE I DID NOT SEE IT AT FIRST THANKS FOR POINTIN IT OUT.
I will be in town tomorrow. I would like to know when will they stop giving these applications.
My son will also be getting the Exam. Hours 9:00AM to 5:00PM
If you are not currently working for New York City Transit you can not be a Train Operator. That Promotion only
Lionel,
All CAPS is considered shouting in WebSpeak. Please turn off your CAPS LOCK.
why is the five being stopped at 238st-neried ave instead of going all the way to 241st? it was running there for years and all of a sudden it was removed. is this a sign of things to come such as the 5 train being pulled back to say, gun hill road and then eventually no service along the white plains road line? also why is there no thru-express between 241st and 180st?
I would think because the 240ST yard is right there after you leave the station. Most of these trains goes into the yard.
Mike thats not 240 Yard that on the No.1 Line. The yard you ment was 239 St Yard. Also the reason why the No.5 trains last stop is 238 St. is so the train can go directly to the Yard. It cuts down the time for the crew to lay the train up then eat lunch and go to Dyre. I once worked that No.5 PM'S. You have 2 HRS to lay the train up and get to Dyre for the next trip with Lunch time Included.
And it's just a whole lot easier in the morning putting in the trains at 238th st than to relay them up at 241st and tie up an empty pocket (track) for a #2 train.
Thank you for that correction.
The entire nassau line is very outdated indeed, but here are just a few of my personal sugeestions to speed up service and add more ridership on this line. 1. M- OPERATES BETWEEN BAY PKWY ANB METR.AVE RUSH HOURS WHILE THE B TRIAN OPERATES AS A TRU EXPRESS BETWEEN BAY PARKWAY AND NINTH AVE. MIDDAY M WOULD OPERATE AGAIN TO NINTH AVE (I WISH) AND NIGHT HOURS ARE OKAY.
2. J-STARTS AT BROAD ST. SKIPS THE BOWERY OPERATES EXPRESS BETWEEN MARCY AND MYRTLE AVE THEN CONTINUES LOCAL TO BROADWAY JUNCTION AND SKIP STOP WITH THE Z TRAIN TO PARSONS
3. Z-STARTS AT BROAD ST AND SKIPS THE BOWERY OPERATES EXPRESS BETWEEN MARCY AND MYRTLE AVE, THEN EXPRESS BETWEEN MYRTLE AND BROADWAY JUNCTION THEN SKIPSTOP TO PARSONS.
NOTE THE IDEAS THAT I GAVE FOR THE JANDZ CAN BE SWITCHED AROUND ANY WAY. I KNOW THAT THIS WOULD TAKE A LOT OF RESCHEDULING OF TRAINS ANY MAY NO BE TOO REALISTIC, BUT I LIKE MANY RIDERS WHO HAVE USED THESE LINES ARE A LITTLE TIRED OF THE SLOWNESS OF THESE TRAINS. THIS WAY THE JAND Z CAN TRULY BE THE NASSAU ST. EXPRESSES
I always wondered why they dont use the middle track from Bway-Jct to Myrtle Av? The only time they use is for construction reroutes.
Please stop with the caps.
-Hank
I proposed a similiar idea in the past for J/Z service. Why not utilize the rest of the middle track along Broadway instead of a holding pen for out of service trains.
-GarfieldA
The Eastern Parkway to Myrtle section center track was last used for regular express service in the late 1960's when I used to used this route to go to elementary and then junior high school. I vaguely recall seeing the QJ as express here with the JJ or KK as local for a short time after the Chrystie Street connection opened, but I might be mistaken on this one.
I believe that I read a newspaper article a long time ago there were strength concerns about some very old elevated sections of this old structure, particulary near Gates Avenue where the Lexington Avenue junction was, if three trains went flying by simultaneously. There was quite a bit of rehabilitation done here since then.
I also remember waiting on the #15 express with a #14 right beside for the #10 to and from Myrtle to clear the crossover. This posed delays that I believe the NYCTA wanted to alleviate.
The middle track between Myrtle Ave. and Eastern Parkway was used by QJ, and later J trains, up until the KK, or K, as it was known by later, was discontinued in 1976. After that, skip-stop service was implemented along that stretch.
Regarding the idea of using the middle track from Bay Parkway to 9th Av on the West End during the rush hours.....I believe it's because there are quite a few work trains still on their way home to 38th st Yard well into the rush, so they don't bother scheduling it. (This goes the same for the F between Church Av and Kings Highway, the work trains are slogging back to Coney Island Yard and Stillwell Yard, well into the rush, so they don't bother scheduling it)
I think on the West End they also run both B and M service inbound local because this allows riders a proverbial one seat ride to either midtown (B) or downtown (M) Manhattan.
ISAW SOME OLD MAPS WITH THE K TRAIN OPERATING FROM THE JAMAICA/BROADWAY LINE ONTO THE SIXTH AVE LINE WHAT HAPPENDED TO THIS LINE AND WHY IS IT NO LONGER USED AS A WAY TO HELP SERVICEON THE NASSAU LINE? I HEARD THAT THERE WAS ALSO ACESS TO THE WILLAMSBURG BRIDGE FROM THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE TRAINS SO, WHAT HAPPENDED?
The link between the Jamaica Line and the 6th Ave Line is still there. It's currently used only by work trains and transfers. I don't believe that you can go from the Manhattan Bridge to the Williamsburg Bridge without a reverse move at B'Way Laff. from B-4 track to BJ-2 track to J-3/4 track to J-1 track. I would make 2 suggestions:
First: If you are interested in obscure routings, get a copy of Peter Dougherty's excellent "Tracks of the NYCity Subways".
Second: Posting in caps implies anger.
Even in the olden, pre-Chrystie St. days, you couldn't have gone from the Manhattan to the Williamsburg Bridge without a reverse move at Chambers St.
Why was this station built as an express but now used only as a local and for Ridge Avenue trains?
Early last year, express trains stopped there but not for very long.
Trackwise, the longest express stretch is from Erie to Olney, but routewise, it's Girard to Erie.
Also, there are tracks that ascend above the line north of Erie. Where do they go? Is that where new cars come on the line?
I think the tracks that rise up north of Erie Avenue were to have been part of NE Philadelphia extention of the Broad Street Subway, and construction was halted in the 30s due to the Depression (I think that's why they go nowhere)
Yes, that's correct. Also, a small 3-track yard of sorts is located here. When Ridge Spur trains turned at Erie, they came to this level, relayed, and went back down to the southbound local track.
I think the Hornet's first question referred to North Phila station. It was an express stop back when rush-hour expresses ran in the 60's and 70's but it never served the all-day express version begun when the K cars arrived in 83-84. Expresses started to call there in late 97 but it didn't last long.
When Connie Mack Stadium was in use, I recall Saturday game-day expresses on the line which stopped at North Phila and did much of their business there. After games, trains usually were lined up there to catch crowds headed in both directions. Fans really packed onto those trains! I think they were 6-car trains, which were fairly standard on the line at that time. They ran express down to Walnut, then switched over to the local and made all stops to Snyder, just as the rush-hour trains did.
Could the NE Philly extention still be done, maybe by connecting the old Reading shortline to New York to the subway? Or is this line heavily used by freight trains? I thought I saw on a Gousha map, some RR right-of-way that runs along Front Street near Erie? Could a subway connection be made to the subway there?
The Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers have reported in their newsletter from time to time on progress on various Northeast Philadelphia transit expansion options (See, for example the DVARP December 1994 newsletter). A Broad Street Subway Extension via Roosevelt Blvd, almost as originally proposed in the 1930's plan was last estimated to be in the $2.1 Billion range. Another plan using the Conrail Short Line was also quoted as another option for the Broad Street subway future.
Rapid transit to NE Phila is once again (!) being studied as you read this. The City Planning Commission is performing the study. Who knows what will come of it?
In addition to the branch off the Broad St subway, various ideas have come forth with an extension of the Frankford El up Bustleton Ave and then onto Roosevelt Blvd to some point, usually Roosevelt Mall. The last one I saw back in the late 80's was the most interesting, since it went like this:
Leave current Broad St subway at Fern Rock.
Backtrack down old Reading RR commuter main line to Fishers Jct, where NY Short Line/Fox Chase Line branch off. Follow NY Short Line into NE Phila to one of a few terminals - Rhawn St (where NE Freeway subway was to have ended - the land for the yards is still City-owned, and the old BSS cars had "Rhawn" signs in their destination boxes!), Fox Chase, Bustleton/Red Lion vicinity, Woodhaven Rd, even Bucks County.
Someone once told me it looked like a sideways question mark.
Ah, the old Pressed Steel cars. Bob, again, how many exist in the
Fern Rock yard? It looked like 3 a couple of months ago on my
Sunday loop around, but it was hard to tell. And that "Heavyweights
Under Broad Street" video of mine is pretty much worn down! :)
-Lee
1 (North Broad, '28) and 166 (South Broad, '38) are part of the alleged "museum" train, along with one of the Bridge Line cars (I want to say 1016, but I'm not sure). Someone told me that 170 and a couple of South Broad cars are still there. I thought both 150 and 151 were kept also (150 would be the last North Broad, 151 the first South Broad).
Do the train colors have any meaning? I know the bridge trains were
silver, but I recall seeing some black/yellow cars as well.
Also, what was the reason for 4 motors on the bridge trains? The
steep bridge incline?
So many questions, sheesh, maybe I'll get to answer someone someday
in here! :)
The train colors don't really mean anything. For years, Broad St cars were a grimy maroon/dark red. After the SEPTA takeover, the color changed to a dark blue body with orange doors. About the time of the Pattison extension ('73), some cars appeared with a white treatment with orange and blue stripes below the windows (big mistake for cars in a grimy tunnel with composite brake shoes!). A handful of cars got a pastel treatment around the Bicentennial. The final scheme was a return to red, the same red that the Redbirds wear today (this is allegedly where David Gunn got the idea for NYC cars).
Bridge Line cars were always blue with silver doors. The blue was similar to that used after the SEPTA takeover. Many of the Bridge cars carried the silver-door scheme for quite a while in their Broad St service. A handful got orange doors.
As to yellow/black, I'm not sure about that one. SEPTA's standard color for maintenance cars is international orange.
Bridge Line cars had 4 motors mainly because of the steep upgrade on the Ben Franklin Bridge. It doesn't seem very steep when driving or riding the Speed Line, but all you need to do is walk or bike it once to appreciate the grade (about 5%). Although I never had the opportunity to ride the Bridge Line, I've been told the cars struggled on the grade in their later years despite the 4 motors. I can attest to their performance on the express portion of the Broad St line, where I experienced several swift rides in these cars.
A question on LIRR door control. On the MUs there is a button labeled
"Pass. Release". What is this button used for?
Also there is a orange light on top on the panel. Anyone know
what this is for?
The Pass Release Button was for a feature incorporated on the M-1s, that was eliminated years ago and never incorporated on the M-3s. The Pass Release feature was designed for operating primarily in inclement weather worked like this. When the train stopped (during a snow storm for example) the conductor would hit the Pass Release Button. At that point, passengers on the inside or outside of the train could push a button, adjacent the door and it would open. Only doors that had to open, would open. The conductor would then close all doors normally and the train would proceed. All of the buttons have been removed but you can see the 'blanking plates' inside and out on the M-1s. This system is used in Buffalo on the outside portion of the line.
This system is used extensively in London & Paris. Not all of the trains have it (the 1973 trains on the Piccadilly line don't, for instance) but it works basically as Steve described. The conductor "enables" the doors to open, the passengers "cause" them to open, either with button or a latch (like on the older trains on Paris' Ligne 1). Then the conductor disables the release and closes them all.
-Dave
Yet on that inside control pannel, what does the one orange light mean next to the two red ones? Also why at times is one red light on, not two?
At the end of each M1 car, there is a pannel with buttons and lights. Is that the Pass Release feature that was talked about? Is that why there is a key hole? Also, what does the single amber light mean there? I think the two red lights are for the doors. Yet why are they both on a times, then only one of two red lights is on at other times?
In the NY Post Friday March 5, page 6, is an article about the federal govt has launched a probe into reports of cracks in a key component of city subway cars.
The Federal Transit Administration has asked the MTA for an accounting of why cracks are turning up in the undercarriages of subway cars - first reported in the NY Post in February.
After the good people of Subtalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Seems like Friday is "Subway Day" for the papers.
Notice the article doesn't mention the possibility that the roadbed is the cause? (I can't find the story in the online edition.) What we probably have here is nobody at the paper following up and asking questions to find what could be causing the cracks.
One of the things about these "studies" is the lack of a "control group." TAers have indicated that cracks are the result of wear and tear, and must be found and replaced routinely. The only way to know if that is true is if the trucks at a second and perhaps third transit agency were checked at the same time, to see the differences. Perhaps Clinton just wants to embarass Pataki.
Its like the investigation of whether the NYC Board of Ed is inflating enrollment to get more state money. It wouldn't be surprising if every school district in the state (if not the U.S.) was inflating enrollment to get more money, but only NYC is being investigated. Just Pataki trying to screw the city and Giuliani again.
It seems from looking at this very vague article that this si not a severe problem. If it was, all of our motormen would be making bundles in overtime as every train (whether it be in a specific car class or the whole fleet) would be brought into the barn to be inspected like they did with the R46s for a spell back in the 70s. If I recall correctly this was shortly after arrival.
If the new story was printed about the cracks the FTA needs to respond to see if the problem is being taken care of. Even if they know it is they are in a position where they must appear to be concerned.
From the last set of posts it seem that TA mainenance has this problem under control and they are finding an repairing them in routine inspections. On the other hand perhaps they will find that the trucks need to be replaced and the TA can get some extra funding for a mini rehab. Nice way to exend the life of the equipment and capitalize some maint exp.
I've been reading this thread and can understand a lot of the more or less technical discussion, but what are "Bighs" in the header? I thought I was familiar with a lot of the jargon but this seems to be a new one. And I probably have more dictionaries at hand than some libraries, but it's not in any of them. Can someone explain?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY Potsdam
Based on the context and the recent threads on grammar I think it's supposed to be "bigs".
-Dave
Ed Alfonsin, i accidently spelled bigs, bighs, while putting this in subtalk, but we are not here to worry about spelling are we?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
I'm not worried that much about spelling (it used to be a mark of education to be able to spell a word in a different fashion every time one used it--we got stuck with standard spelling because printers weren't educated and got fed up with the educated people), but when something is used that I can't figure out and can't find in a dictionary or a jargon list, I think that's a legitimate concern.
A question I have when people disregard standard spelling is why, in today's insistence on accuracy in measurements and identification codes, the same accuracy doesn't apply to words. (I'm not talking about the occasional typo or someone's habit of using an non-standard spelling for a place name--like "Jamacia" for "Jamaica.")
More important, I just hope that people's abilities to read instruction manuals, gauges, station signs, computer screens, and lots of other things are better than their use of standard spellings, especially people who operate or maintain or design things like subway trains.
Off my soap box.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Something like 'bighs' is a "Fat Finger Mistake" I think I'll trademark that, and start selling bigger keyboards under that brand name. Every time I've replaced my keyboard (3 times already) the new is most definatly smaller than the old.
-Hank
I don't worry too much about this because when one considers the # of cracked trucks over the 3 year period, coupled to the # of cars and trips made daily by NYCT, I think this is just part of the regular wear & tear process. Shop forces can keep the problem in check as the cars come in for their regular inspections. I just feel that the large mileage/area of concrete roadbed contributes to the problems.
There must be many contributing factors as to why trucks are cracking. Concrete roadbed may be one of them. However, a large portion of that same roadbed is also traveled by many different contracts of subway cars but not all suffer cracks in th same proportions. Age is also not a significant factor since the trucks on the oldest cars are not cracking with the same frequency. What seems to be a significant factor is that the trucks that crack with the most frequency are the trucks under the heaviest cars. Again, lets put this entire problem in perspective. There are roughly 5,800 revenue cars in service. That's roughly 11,600 trucks. There have been 73 cracked trucks found in the last 3 years or roughly 24 per year. That's a failure rate of 0.2% annually. When you look at the cracked trucks in that context, the problem is not as damning as it seems.
So, can you then provide a class/R group breakdown(no pun intended) with cross reference for normal assignment such that other varianles can be considered? Thanks in advance.
I have not yet read the article but I can easily understand the need for the gov't to ask for some information, however. Afterall, the federal gov't has a large investment in the NYC Subways and with the subways being such a vital part of the city's very existance, their concern is understandable. Having said that, I want to re-emphasize something that I mentioned previously the last time this thread was runing.
Cracked trucks on subway car frames, automobile frames or air frames are maintenance issues as long as they are being found on inspection and being addressed in a timely manner. This is not to say that the cause should not be determined - because, clearly, we need to know why. However, cracked trucks on NYC Subway cars have not resulted in a single delay to service, much less a major disruption due to a catastrophic failure. It was maintenance that found every single cracked truck that has been found in more than the past 10 years. We will continue to find them in a timely manner until the engineers catch up.
Does the TA keep track of the mileage every truck puts on? The truck cracking "problem" may be simply a result of high milage on the truck. In effect, thrucks might just have to be 'retired', or rebuilt, after a certain number of miles. Such a concept is not new - it is done in the aviation field, where components are replaced due to age or #cycles they've been through. It is be normal to see cracking on a high mileage truck anyway. They wear out too...
Didn't the IND lines have ties-in-concrete trackbeds right from the beginning? Was there any sort of truck problem with the R-1/9s? As I understand, they had arch-bar trucks and not the cast variety.
Hi,
Not sure if this topic has been covered, but every now and then you get a conductor on a train who is quite animated and entertaining.
For instance, in the early 1980's there was a conductor on the West End who routinely would give the weather report and temperature as you rode into work.
Then there was the Alphabet conductor, who would say, "West 4th Street, change here for the A as in Apple, F as in Frank, D as in Dog, etc."
SO please share your funny or obnoxious conductor stories over the years,
I'm sure this will make for a lighthearted post thread if it hasn't already been done.
Thanks
After years of riding the NYC trains, I finally ventured out to Buffalo, to try their new system (one 6 mile line, avg. of 2 car trains). Things were going well. The train was brand new and it was pretty fast. I was sitting comfortably with my feet on the seat in front of me, in a nice relaxing position. There were only a few other people in the car. We got to a station and the conductor said to stand clear and the doors closed but the train didn't move. It stood for about 10 seconds. And then the conductor said "Sir! Please remove your feet from the seat!" I looked around, and then realized he was talking about me. I quickly removed my feet and the conductor said "thank you." and the train moved on. Then I noticed the surveillance camera at the top of the car. Since it's only a 2 car train the conductor can keep an eye on the goings on of all the passengers!
My favorite was the deep-voiced conductor on an A train I took once from 59th St. He announced, "Good afternoon, passengers. You just boarded a downtown A to Lefferts Blvd. 42nd St. will be the next stop. No smoking on the train, no smoking on the train."
Heard on an some years ago:
"Step in please and watch the clozin' dawz.
Watch the clozin' dawz please.
Watch the dawz in the rear!
Move away from the dawz this is not a taxi!"
Love that Brooklyn accent!
The conductor that was on the 7thAv/B'way Local was pretty good.He retired from the TA about 5 years ago.I 4get his name.Any1 knows?
Yes his name was Harry Nugent. His job No. was 207. He picked the same run all the Time.
I see the guy before while i used to take a #1 to school or after school. That was in the late 80s. I have a question to you David Foster. Does you work diffirent lines every week?
At the time Harry was a Conductor I had a 11:00 To 7:00PM. I would ride his train after doing overtime on the Grand Central Shuttle. I worked Dffrent lines. I worked lots of Lines then. I worked the Shuttle from 7:00AM to 9:00. then toke harry's train then Like I said in the beginning Worked the No.1 3 Days a week. The Shuttle was 2 days. Then run the No. 2 line on weekends. Now I don't work much overtime. I have 5 days all on the No.1 Line. I hope to return back to the No.6 line in acouple of mouths. Then for the 1st time in my 10 career work the BMT or IND. Maybe the the A line weekdays and the C Line saturdays. But I don't know that would be a big step for me. I always rode the IRT and always worked on the IRT.
Wow you work hard everyday and i like IRT too. Well i got a applicant for conductor and hope i will pass the test.
Me too; anyone know of any 'prep classes'?
-Hank
The test is easy to pass if it is like the one in the late 80's. The problem is the number of people who pass it >G<. And they might use a lottery system just for you to take the test since they are expecting so many people to apply.
Try it out in the B division.It's pretty good over here.Don't believe what everyone in the A division says about the supervision in the B division.
I know they're not conductors, but some of the operators on SEPTA's subway surface lines are real "hams" when it comes to the use of the PA. When the K cars first arrived over 15 years ago, I was a regular daily user of Route 36. Many operators loved to give wake-up calls, good mornings, weather reports, late scores you wouldn't find in the morning Inquirer, etc. Some even made tapes which they used for calling out stops. My favorite was one such operator whose tape included the following information for 67th St, the location of Bartram High School: "67th St. Transfer for Red Arrow bus route J to 69th St Terminal. This stop for Bartram High. Students, please do not light your cigarettes until you have left the car."
The conductors on the Broad St subway by comparison are real stiffs. You can hardly hear or understand most of them.
Aww, but can you blame the poor BSS opto guys? I mean, they have to
trek all the way across that cabin to open the doors. Usually that
in and of itself seems to tire them out. :)
The A line??
R44's?? Well I guess that could be better the coffins the redbirds have room wise
Maybe operate a R 32 or R 38. I wounder how a R 46 would be. Its would be very difrent if I go to B Division but i'll enjoy operating the Redbird this pick before they leave us.
Cool,Thanks.I think he retired in 1993,right?
I have a question/comment from the motormans standpoint. With all those announcements, did that causer his train to be constantly late. Did senior motormen pick with him? If I had to listen to his spiel all day evey trip, I think I would go nuts after a while! LOL
The train was maybe 3 Mins late but most of the Annoutsment were between stations. Also I loved his annoutsment its too bad I was not his T/O. I did come close but the person ahead of me picked it. Did the other T/O like it. No, they did not. He never keeped the same T/O. Back then I was fairly new so he had lots of Low Senarty T/O.
But he was entertaining even Thow Transit toke him out of service over it.
On March 15 I will be picking up my application for the Conductor's Test. If I am among the lucky ones chosen, I will make sure that my announcements are consistent (I DO have a moderately loud speaking voice), clear and correct.
(My sample mid-day announcement on the Fulton Express)
"This is Broadway-East New York, doors will open on the right side. Change here for the J and L trains on the upper level, and the C local across the platform. Watch your steps getting off."
"This is the A train, 8th Avenue Express to 207th Street in Manhattan. Please stand clear of the closing doors."
(ding dong!)
"The next stop will be Utica Avenue."
Wayne
Better Hurry up Wayne, I just send my out allready and good luck. I been waiting for this for long time.
Wayne,did you or do you live in the DC area?The operators on the DC METRO tells you what side the doors will open on.I never in my time living in NYC heard a conductor say"DOORS OPENING ON THE LEFT/RIGHT.Unfortunately,I live in in Ohio,& can't pick up an application for conductor.My dream was to be a conductor since I was a little boy.But I long gave that up after I moved to Columbus,Ohio 4 years ago.Wish u the best on the test.
My Grandmother lived on 9th Street NE (near Constitution NE) from 1948 until her death in January of 1995. I spent many vacations at her home. In November of 1978, my Grandfather passed away at the age of 82, and during our visit there, I got my first ride on the Metro - from Eastern Market to National Airport. The next day, we went from Potomac Avenue to New Carrollton, back to Metro Center, and then up and down the Red Line - first to Silver Spring, then back to Metro Center. We covered the entire small system in about three hours.
As for my addendum regarding on which side the doors open - I like this touch, I DID pick it up from the DC Metro. I figure if some
conductors can give out weather forecasts, the least I could do is
to announce the side on which the doors open. I believe the DC attendants do this as an aid for visually-impaired people, but don't quote me on that. Anyway, I have gotten used to doing this during my announcement rehearsals, so it is second nature to me.
My next trip to DC will be the week of Sept 19-25 1999, to see the new Green line connection and to finish taking my pictures.
Wayne
I can see where such an announcement would be helpful on local trains or on two-track lines, since there is no consistency as to which side the doors will open. On express trains at express stops, where all four tracks are at the same level, the doors will open to the right 99% of the time. The only exceptions I can think of are 34th St.-Penn Station on the 7th Ave. and 8th Ave. lines, and Atlantic Ave. on the IRT. Frankly, I wouldn't have any objection if I were to hear such an announcement on an express train, especially if it was a slant R-40 train. Of course, I'd have a pretty good idea as to who was making that announcement, huh, Wayne?
Good luck Wayne. I'm sure you'll make a great conductor and maybe we'll work together some day. To survive your employment, and this is for every other prospective conductor as well, two things: It takes a long time for the first person to be called from the list due to placement rankings and test certifications. It took me 3 years to be called from the time I took the test and I only got 1 question wrong! Secondly, remember seniority is the name of the game. Be ready to have midweek days off and strange and different working hours each day. Say good bye to your social life for a while and hope your days off coincide with a few holidays. I've had to work several Christmas' & Thanksgivings for example. I'm not trying to discourage anybody, I'm just telling it like it is!
That would indeed be a pleasure, Bill. I don't mind shuffling holidays- I had to do it last year due to some turmoil here at home - I wound up celebrating Christmas on December 27. Anyway, I'll see how it goes. First put in the application, then get all my connections and door opening sides rehearsed. Is there a book I must study before taking the test?
Wayne
You may try the ARCO Civil Service Books availiable at most good book stores. When I took the test, it was a combined conductor/bus operator. Now they are seperate tests. Then, it was basically questions about driving, nothing to do with trains. From what I heard, now the conductor test asks basic knowledge and facts and locations about famous places in NYC. To all: file early. Ties are broken by seeing who filed the earliest!
Do file early if you intend to take the conductor's test. Filing will be open until 3/26/99. From what I understand, your filing fee ($10 I think) will buy you a shot at a lottery. From all the applicants who file, just 15,000 will be chosen to take the test. From that point on, filing time and veterans credit can mean the difference of one year in when you are called.
Many threads regarding this topic and Conductors in general of late, so can anyone tell me:
1) How long the training period is?
2) What training is given?
3) Can you apply direct or must you be NYCTA staff and apply as promotion??
>
Just curious really !,with all lines in London (except the Northern Line) now one person operated the position of conductor or guard as we say here deserves to come under the spotlight now we've all stopped Movie talk!!
Regards
Rob
London UK
:^)
The position of conductor is considered an Entry Level job and therefore is referred to as "Open/Competative', meaning that anyone may apply. However, it is also open to some NYCT employees such as cleaners, RR Clerks & helpers.
To clarify-- there are two exams being given: The open competitive to people outside of Transit which would be the exam Wayne would take and the promotional exam which I will take.
The advantage of being "promotion exam" is that all eligibles have to be used before they can use the open competitve list.
Rob,
I can provide a detailed look at the length and scope of training, since I still have my school car schedule from my training back in Nov. of 1997. Here it goes:
A Div & B Div training is different in length due to different rolling stock.
My training was as a Conductor in the A Div(IRT) and may differ from present day school car training.
Day one: 0800 hrs P.S. 248 Brooklyn. Induction, Processing, Orientation,and presentation from union. This is the day we found out which Div. we will be assigned and our introduction to the senority system.
Day two: 0800 hrs P.S. 248. Dupont, Eyes & Ears (Safety Training)
Day #3: 0800 hrs P.S. 248. Uniforms
Day #4: 0800 hrs P.S. 248. FTA training(sorry, I can't recall what FTA was) also Customer service, baby stroller, ADA,(dealing with disabled) platform mirors & CCTV.
Day #5: 0800 hrs E.180 st classroom, Bronx. Policies, Rules, Conductors duties, Quiz.
Day #6: 0800 hrs E.180 st classroom, Bronx. Work programs, Timetables, Lost property.
Day #7: 0800 hrs E.180 st Classroom, Bronx. Signal System, Radio Communications.
Day #8: 0800 hrs E. 180 st. Classroom & Yard, Bronx. Car equipment: familiarization R26-R36, Signal Quiz.
Day #9: 0800 hrs 239st Yard, Bronx. Car equipment: R26-R36 Door operations, Trouble shooting, Changing operating position.
Day #10: 0800 hrs Corona Yard, Queens. Car equipment: R26-R36 Preparing a train for service, Trouble shooting, Door operations.
Day #11: 0800 hrs Westchester Yard, Bronx. Car equipment R26-R36 review previous car equip. lessons and Hooking a signal, Hand switching, Structure walk(Yikes).
Day #12: 0800 hrs Mosholu Yard, Bronx. Car equipment: R62, R62A Door operations, Prepare train for service, Changing operating postion.
Day #13: 0800 hrs Westchester Yard, Bronx. Flagging, Third rail jumper operations, Other than head end operations.
Day #14: 0800 hrs E.180st classroom & Transit Museum. Panic control and Emergency exit operations.
Day #15: 0800 hrs E.180st classroom. Mid course review, Emergency exit operations and Mid course exam.
Day #16: 0800 hrs 370 Jay st Control Center. Customer communications. This were they teach us about PA announcements.
Day #17: 0800 hrs 241st White Plains Rd Terminal. Road simulation. This is were we use a temporarily modified train to practice door operations on the road.
Day #18 tru #24 Road Posting. This is were we work with a seasoned Conductor on his job inorder to be come familiar with the lines in the Div., as well as practice our door operation while under the supervision of the Conductor.
Day #25 Final Exam
Day #26 Practical Exam's
Day #27 Practical Exam's
Day #28 Congradulations!!! you are now fully road qualified and must now call the crew office for your first assigment.
I wish to add: Also be prepared to go from one end of the city to the other. You will be extra and as such you can and will be sent anywhere within the A or B Division. At present I am a Station Agent (Extra List) and work different stations each night. Since working for Transit I have been as far Noth as Dyre and as far SOuth as Hopwards Beach JFK and most of the stations on the Brooklyn B,N,Q,R lines including Stillwell.
Also from talking to several conductors: Be prepared to sit around at a terminal waiting for a run. You'll work 8 hoursd once you get a run.
I took look forward to taking the test and the expected result that I passed and will trade a Station Service booth for a Train cab.
to the open competitive candidates: Start looking for your birth certificates now. If you are foreign born and do not have one get a current passport--NOW!
Here is the process for Station Agent: It was October 1996 when I took the test.( I celebrated my birthday by taking the test which happened to be given on my birthday!) Summer 1997 arrives and I am called for an interview. Late fall 1997 it was to go in for a drug test(cost $15--money order only) and for a 31 page questionnaire about previous jopbs since High School-get the resume out==you'll need it!
It is now January 1998-I am called for final physical and swearing in-the documentation--passport, was a hang=up so I had to go to Philly to get a new passport-paid a rush fee and Overnight express mail--total $115.00. When the passport arrived it was back to 1251 Broadway and was accepted. I was instructed to report to a room at the North end of the West Fourth Station on the mezzanine between the two track levels for more paperwork on the Friday before class. That was 3/5/1998!
And I thought you would pick a route which had slant R-40s...
I like the Fulton Express because it is an express run and has some rather attractive (IMHO) stations along it. It is probably my favorite IND line. As for Slants, of course I would be happy to conduct along the Q or the L lines (although the Slants will probably be gone from the latter by that time).
Kings Highway doors open on the right side, change here for the D local across the platform and the B-2 Bus to Kings Plaza...
Wayne
I once heard this on a Flushing bound #7 I boarded at 5th Avenue:
"Local train to Flushing. This is a local train, a local train, you are on the local train. This is not the express. If you want the express, you are on the wrong train. This is the local train. Local train to Flushing. Local Train, local Train. Next stop: Grand Central"
And I'm sure there were people, who despite all those announcements, STILL asked him if the train was a local or express. People don't listen, they want to be told personally & individually.
It's similar to an FAQ at Christmas Eve: people call their church rectory to ask, "What time does Midnight Mass start?" DUH!!
I just remembered a Conductor story. This Conductor didn't really say anything specal but did something probably lots of Employees wanted to do but wouldn't do. It was PM Rush Hour about 6:00 PM. Like always there where people holding the doors in the front of the train at 66 St-Bway. So the conductor walks off the train and sit on the bench and starts reading a Newspaper. He sits there for 5 Mins then goes back on the train and Sez over the PA. "Are you all ready now I get payed to sit and wait". When all us know you can't get away with that. So he was given 5 days with out pay. Then 2 YRS later retired.
Also I was checking a libery on old transit News Articals and I found one from the NY Newsday. A Conductor on the 9:02AM out of Van Courtlandt pulled the cord after spoting a person jump between the cars. Thats Normal but the rest if unbelivible. He runs after the guy. They jumped from between the cars and on to the Platform and chase him onto the street at W 116 St-Bway. Police detained the Conductor name Guezman. He has been fired but not for that. He struck a New York City Transit Bus Operator for passing his bus stop. Before that he was almost fire for hiting a school kid who pull the cord.
What a record. Talk about 3 strikes. Some only get 1 chance.
Sounds as if this dude was a ticking time bomb who could detonate at any time.
I went to Aviation High in the 80's. There was a time ehen I was going home after school one day when I was on the 7 train at Rawson St. As anyone knows people holding the doors open for thier friends or anyone else can be a problem. On this particular day some kids were holding the doors open. So the conductor made this announcement, "I,m waiting for the person who is holding the doors open to close them". A minute passed by, nothing happened. Then the conductor says, "I'm still waiting....Can't close them?" Then finally the dooras close and the person who held the doors open must of felt embarassed.
No, it doesn't happen that way. He who holds doors open feels like a nice guy/ hero for allowing his friends to board THAT train. He also is the first guy to complain about a late train or one which goes out of service for door problems.
Looking through the track maps, the one of the Queens Plaza/ Queensbridge area shows that 21 St/Queensbridge(B/Q or S) as an island platform when it is two side platforms.
Also, how deep is the 63rd St.tunnel from north of 57th/7th to 63rd/Lexington? The ceiling seemed pretty high to me(and a little freaky with those purple tunnel lights).
While I do not have an answer to either of these questions I do have a note about the Lexington Av station on the 63rd Street extension.....
The wall of the station is actually a false wall. The platform extends behind this wall (on both upper and lower levels of the station) to the track that was used (until more track work was ordered) for layups. Over night there were 3 N trains and 1 R train laid up behind these walls, 2 upstairs, 2 down.
The reason for the platform is that these tracks curve north, east of the station to link up with the 2nd Av subway.
Purple or Blue Lights?
They denote saftey equipment or a power cut off switch at the location of the light.
The line from 57th to Lex in on a down slant to clear Metro North and the low-level express tracks of the IRT.
i remember during the construction, the deep cut at 7th Ave in Central Park and the cofferdam that carried the 6th Ave line through the lake.
Has the MTA ever tossed around the idea of adding surveillance cameras to the trains or stations?
[Has the MTA ever tossed around the idea of adding surveillance cameras to the trains or stations?]
I for one find it difficult to imagine why the TA has such resistance to installing security cameras. It's not like the things are an untested technology; you'll find them seemingly everywhere today. And subway platforms are well-suited to camera surveillance by virtue of their physical layout. But no, the TA usually isn't interested.
There are cameras in many stations already. For instance the Canal Street Station underpass/transfer from the N/R Broadway and the Bridge Line portion of the station. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
You are correct that there are cameras in some places, but nowhere near as many as could be used. I really don't see why every platform and passageway couldn't be covered by cameras. The cost of even a couple of thousand cameras and the required connections probably would be less than that of a few new cars, and monitoring costs would be a small component of the subway's overall operating budget.
To put things in terms that the TA's bean counters would understand, the cost of full camera coverage and monitoring probably would be less than a few crime victims' jury awards.
I wonder if the cameras are monitored by someone or if they are taping if a crime is committed?
I have worked stations with cameras. They are connected to apush button where a customer can talk to the booth. We then lock our TV monitor to that camera. The monitors are outisde the Station Service Booth and we are supposed to keep an eye on them. If we see a crime or emergency then we are to activate our alarm and request police or EMS assistance.
Now opinion- There is more to cameras then the cameras. There are the monitor screens, camera alarms (If someone steals a camera an alarm will go off in the booth), video switcher which will rotate between the variousd cameras and allow manual control to select a camera. There is also maintenance of cameras and monitors. I have worked stations where the screen was so dark they were useless-I called the field office and no repairs were made. I have also seen monitors, not in stations I worked, that have the TV screen covered weith stickers that appear to have been there "forever".
***disclaimer-while some info is based on official info, this post is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
[I have worked stations with cameras. They are connected to apush button where a customer can talk to the booth. We then lock our TV monitor to that camera. The monitors are outisde the Station Service Booth and we are supposed to keep an eye on them. If we see a crime or emergency then we are to activate our alarm and request police or EMS assistance.]
Having station agents monitor the cameras is hardly the best idea - they already have enough to do and can't reasonably be expected to watch the cameras as closely as they should be watched. Some sort of off-site monitoring service would make a lot more sense.
They are installing, or have already installed, video cameras on trains on the Broad Street Subway here in Philly. There are four or five cameras in each car. There's no way they could ever monitor all those cameras effectively, but at the very least they're a good deterrent to late-night crime on trains.
The MTA in Baltimore has installed hidden (we know where they are, but the public doesn't) cameras on all buses, LRV's (2 per articulated unit) and subway cars (2 per car). Since the program was announced in late 1997, violent crime on transit has dropped dramatically.
Actually, I just saw cameras on a Market-Frankford Line car for the first time. Apparently, SEPTA is in the process of adding surveilance cameras to all its rolling stock.
Does anyone know ho the system works? Does the operator see video from those cameras on the platform monitor when the train is not in a station, or is there another new monitor in the cab? ...or does it just record to a tape?
Sorry, my W key gets stuck... so:
Does anyone know how the system works? ...
I don't know about the El, but there are several on buses and trolleys. They have a tape on continuous loop which can store about 3-4 hours worth of info.
I had asked about the thick wires between the running rails at the
El stops, and apparently they're antennas for the platform cameras.
(Allows OPTO from the operator's cab.) Don't know where else they use
the signal.
-Lee
There aren't any on the cars, but certainly on the platfroms( for the CCTV they use when pulling into a station).
[ There aren't any on the cars... ]
No, you're wrong - they are not on all the cars, at least not yet, but as I said, I have seen them installed on cars on both the BSS and MFL. I would not have said I saw them if it wasn't true. Please don't call me a liar.
It may be a test or pilot program, or maybe they are, in fact, installing them on all cars, but I have seen them - I first saw them a week ago on the BSS, then Saturday on the MFL.
They are installed in special housings mounted on the ceiling. There are five on a BSS car, mounted facing opposite directions down the center of the car. Then there are four on a MFL car, mounted near the doors near the ends, mounted off-center, facing opposite directions.
Oh, no, no, no!
I wasn't calling you a liar, I was just saying it because I haven't seen them( I guess I haven't been paying attention).
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Sorry, it's just as much my fault - I over-reacted.
Anyway, if anyone has info about how the system works, I'm very curious about it.
Can anyone refresh my memory on where I can purchase model NYCT subway cars. I got my information right here on Subtalk the first time for a store in Manhattan that sells them. It's been my life long dream to have a model HO-Scale of subway cars.
-GarfieldA
You're probably thinking of The Red Caboose on 45th St. They have ads every month in Model Railroader.
Red Caboose is the best store in New York City and I buy stuff there. They have almost all the Ho-Scale for NYC Subway Cars also N scale too. I can't remember the guy name that own Red Caboose. Well people go to Red Caboose and it at w45st between 5th and 6th ave.
Speaking of model subway cars, does anyone know if there are any
model railroad el structures, preferably in HO scale? About 2 years
ago, I heard or read somewhere that an el structure modelled after the
3rd Ave. El was in production, but I don't recall what scale(s) it
was to be made to. Can anyone confirm this? I do have 2 HO scale
Redbirds that I purchased at the Red Caboose 2 years ago, and I
currently have them displayed on a section of track. I would love to
display them on a model el structure, complete with station house and
platforms, if they are, or will be available.
Sorry, but no there is nothing available commercially at present, although there are a few rumblings among the "cottege industry" suppliers about bringing an HO scale elevated structure to market. If this ever was made available, I'd imagine it would be rather expensive. Why not build a model el yourself? Check out the "Modeling the New York Subway" web site at www.monmouth.com/~patv for a look at my scratchbuilt HO scale el. Believe it or not, it was made from basswood and cardstock glued together with white glue! You could also "kitbash" (combine parts from different un-related kits) to build your model el. Mr. Villani's web site contains a list of references for the modeler that I supplied that will allow you to get started. GOOD LUCK!
Back in the 80's I purchased a closeout lot of HO AHM old-time passenger cars, that look similar to El Gate cars. I was considering using spud units to power the cars. Although I had not planned to use steam, a good kitbasher could fabricate inexpensive Forney type locomotives from 040 chassis. I assume that you want to model something other than a 2 foot diorama.
I had plans to build an elevated structure from the Plastistruct shapes available at the time. I still have a roll of double/xover tie stip that was to be used for the two track section. I was going to use code 100 flex track and snap track and switches for the railway. I was not sure what I was going to do to model a non-operating 3rd rail. A lower code rail was my best bet at the time. Although, I had not tackled the clearance question.
The fabrication was a monumental task and I was always searching for quicker and cheaper alternatives for the structure. Has anyone found any good inexpensive (HO) elevated structure material to date? Modeling a concrete structure like the Rockaway structure is fairly easy and inexpensive to do. However, when you want to model the older steel plate girder or latice work structures, you really have a task ahead of you, not to mention rivet detail and a decent looking and functional upright column. I never really solved the problem of curves. I am sure that the actual el builders were not too comfortable with constructing the curves on the original structures.
I have pictures of the Contes slip curve that show numerouss replaced or replacement rails for the curve. There are probably a few curves on the current elevated structures that give the maintence people ulcers.
So, maybe if still you want pursue this quest, I believe that the old-time passenger cars are available from Bachman. Structure components are still up in the air.
Good luck.
IT'S STILL THERE! Oh, thank heavens! That is the store in the basement, no? At least a dozen of my HO buildings as well as my trusty old power pack (dating from 1968) were bought there. I have to go back there one day..
Wayne
Yep the the store in the basement. They been there for a while because they used to be right a cross the street on the 4 floor and they bought the place to move to basement.
I went to Red Caboose on 3/8 and i saw a n scale R62 with three subway cars cost $140 and R21 cost $299 with three subway cars but the problem is you have to put it together. I wish to buy R62 subway cars and put it on my layout. I don't know if they have power on R62 or R21. Also i saw the book with "Tracks of the New York City Subway with second edition" but it almost same with the first edition and it doesn't have yards map. I want to know what going on here and in second edition post to have subway yards map. no color on second edition.
Check out http://www.eastpenn.org - East Penn Traction Club's website. They have listings of many manufacturers, including MTS imports and others, who carry subway and traction materials from N to O scales (and probably beyond).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does any know of a web site that has historical information about the Kansas City Elevated rapid transit line.
Cyril - One source on this line I think I remember seeing, is in Robert Reed's book, "The New York Elevated". In a final chapter he summarizes other elevated lines. If I'm remembering it correctly the Kansas City elevated was actually just an elevated viaduct that ran for about a mile or so; there may have been one station stop on it. There is one small photo of a trolley on the structure that accompanys the text - nothing spectacular. He may have written that its design was based on elevated structures either in New York or Chicago. Anyone else that can add anything - it would be appreciated. Searching on Yahoo using: kansas city trolley history - came up with Kansass City Public Library special collection-maps. (www.kcp.org./sc/maps/maps.htm) - including trolley maps. Try going to this website or the keyword search on above or kansas city historical society
Thanks, that is the only thing I have on it also.
I found a post card with viaduct on it, however, I was not sure if the viaduct and the elevated structure were the same system. I thought the elevated system may have had a line to the stockyards, similar to the Chicago 'L'.
Just transferred from 6 to E/F. NEITHER ESCALATOR BETWEEN 6 AND E/F PLATFORM WAS RUNNING! My first clue to this was several people at the top landing who appeared ready to have heart attacks. I usually walk down the stairs anyway, but this was extremely difficult because the already too-narrow stairway was jammed with people walking up because the escalator was jammed with people walking up. There was a horrible bottleneck at the platform level where trains were discharging on both tracks at once.
This is the- what, fifth, sixth busiest station in the system? Doesn't it make sense for the TA to make sure the escalator is running at three o'clock on a Friday afternoon? I'm just glad I don't have to go that way at FIVE.
Both escalators for the Third Avenue exit were running just fine up and down, thank you.
At least this is better than one recent Sunday when both escalators at the 7 platform at Grand Central were coming DOWN!
You have to understand, from the Transit Authority's perspective escalators are an exotic technology that cannot be managed well.
Just imagine having that sort of "escalator follies" at a shopping mall ...
(Shopping malls don't have escalator problems). By law, the TA must take all comers, and buy from low bidders. The Mall can buy from responsible businesses, with a the carrot and stick of more/less business in the future, and toss out vandals.
Everyone seems to be presuming that the escalators were broken. That is not necessarily the case. By law, every escalator in New York City must have a stop button at each landing. Vandals (usually "students") often hit the stop button, which shuts the escalator off until someone can come out and reset it. 3 PM, which is the approximate time of this incident according to the posting, is a time of day when thousands of schoolchildren are leaving or have just left school.
David
I might add- Station Agents or Cleaners must call a supervisor before the escaltors can be restarted. Believe it or not. there is a long involved process before the supervisor is allowed to restart the escalator (In one booth I saw the three page safety bulletin on restarting escalators.). Also, Stations has been realigned giving more stations to fewer supervisors (and that is assuming the supervisor even comes to the station to check on you.) We will call our Field Office and advise that Escalator number E-nnn (N= any number) is off. A supervisor may or may not stopy by the station/
I do sympathize with you.
There is a 10 page booklet on elevators operations! we are not allowed to restart elevators either. We must call supervision and elevator maintenance. If a customer gets stuck in an elevator we activate our alarm and notify the police. We also call elevator maintenance.
Did you see the paper Tuesday AM- they will close 181 on the IRT for repairs for four months including tile and new elevators. Now if only they'll improve lighting at 168 IRT and renoavte 191 IRT.
I can see why restarting elevators requires a call to supervision and elevator maintenance. But escalators are a different story. Station agents should be authorized to restart them, at least in certain circumstances. Requiring supervision is an excessively bureaucratic step.
We are not to leave the booth except to pull the wheels (Empty the turnstiles) or for lunch or comfort relief. To restart escalators would require leaving the booth. We are taught that an ateempt by a passenger, even a hurt passenger, might be a ruse--we open the booth door and accomplice robs the booth or hurts the station agent. We are never to leave the booth. If someone gets hurt call for help and if a cleaner is on the station we can call for the cleaner.
oh yes- if we get robbed or lose money we have to pay it back!
[We are taught that an ateempt by a passenger, even a hurt passenger, might be a ruse--we open the booth door and accomplice robs the booth or hurts the station agent. We are never to leave the booth. If someone gets hurt call for help and if a cleaner is on the station we can call for the cleaner.]
Well, I'm probably going way out on a limb here, but it's my view that this never-leave-the-booth policy is *not* always advisable. Consider someone collapsing in front of the booth. If the station agent knows CPR, he or she might be able to save the person's life - while waiting for help to arrive probably would be fatal. Yes, the "collapse" could be a ruse to lure the agent out of the booth. But you have to weigh the consequences - a couple of thousand dollars in the booth (if that much) vs. someone's life. I'd say it's a risk worth taking. Mark my words, one of these days the TA is going to get hit with a huge civil judgment because of their policy. As much as I dislike lawsuits, I can't say that that would be a bad thing.
Personally, if I were a station agent, I could never let someone die needlessly in front of me if I were able to help. To heck with the money.
Since when are station agents taught CPR?
> Since when are station agents taught CPR?
Doesn't mean they might not know it. I'm not certified but I was taught CPR in high school health class. (I'm not sure I'd actually try it without a refresher course unless there was no one else who could do it...)
I was certified. Anyhow, before opening the booth door, you're supposed to check if it's safe. Since the door locks from the outside, leave the key inside, and pull the door closed behind you in an emergency situation. Now, no one can get in, including you. I guess you need to call a supervisor then, and maybe get written up, but I'm 100% sure that no negative action would be taken against you, if it involved saving a life.
-Hank
That is not how Transit sees it. They ask one question "Did you obey the rules". If the answer is "no" you are in trouble. The focus is not customer service but "Rules". Seriously, if someone collapsed in front of the booth we'd hit our alarm and advise of the need for EMS and EMS and Police would come, do the CPR and we'd have obeyed the rules. A Station Supervisor would also respond. Even then we'd have tons of paper work, but we'd have obeyed the rules.
I had one booth Audit for being nice to a customer. The MetroCard had zero on it and customer wanted money added to *that card* I did and the card locked up the computer. I was reinstructed not to add money to a zero card but use a new card. I did state that I was giving the customer what they wanted but to no avail.
[That is not how Transit sees it. They ask one question "Did you obey the rules". If the answer is "no" you are in trouble. The focus is not customer service but "Rules". Seriously, if someone collapsed in front of the booth we'd hit our alarm and advise of the need for EMS and EMS and Police would come, do the CPR and we'd have obeyed the rules. A
Station Supervisor would also respond. Even then we'd have tons of paper work, but we'd have obeyed the rules.]
Why am I not surprised (sigh)? This obsession with "rules" is why TA management is by and large inferior to just about anything found in the private sector. Most private companies have learned that giving workers more autonomy is far better in the long run than constraining them with endless rules. Even from my outsider's viewpoint, I'd say that station agents have much better knowledge of how to deal with unexpected problems than do bureaucrats at Jay Street. But it's the "rules" that count. How absurd.
At this "private" bus company we have lots of rules too, but then we don't normally get our heads chopped off if we bend them a little in the interest of SERVING the customer.
And this pain in the ass isn't afraid to ask the TA but WHY a lot. It makes my day when this tail wags the dog !
Mr t__:^)
The TA will tell you "We make up these rules to prevent similar situations from happening in the future." Remember one word: BEAURACRACY. If something goes arry: don't say what you did, say what you are supposed to do. That will keep your nose clean!
It still could be a set up. When a booth agent goes to work, his family would like him/her to return home safely. Weighing the consequences at the booth: that could prove fatal to the booth agent. Don't forget: over the years there have been numerous push in robberies resulting in DEATH to the agent.
To compare NYCT escalators to those at a shopping mall is grossly unfair. Do the shopping mall escalators run 24/7?
au contraire, the real question is how long the tenants(merchants) would put up with failure before the landlord would fix the problem.
In a shopping mall security is on constant watch to guard against vandalism/shoplifting. No matter what anybody else tells you, in the subway, the would be vandals don't have PD looking over their collective shoulders all the time. Very seldom does a vandal get caught in the act. That is why there is so much vandalism in the subway: thier chances of getting caught in the act are slim to none.
FYI - At about 12 noon today (Sunday), only one of the escalators at the Lex end of the station was running - and it was going _down_. On my way out of the station, I passed 3 people who had stopped to rest on the way up. I was wondering, if only one escalator in the station is working, wouldn't it make more sense to have it running _up_?
Certainly. Maybe the escalator just broke down. Maybe some vandal recently pushed the stop button. I don't know. Do you? Give the TA the benefit of the doubt sometime. Did you read subway buffs' prior post about the TA procedeure for resetting an escalator? Those rules come from downtown, those out in the field do as ordered in the field.
I don't know why the escalators were not running. Did you alert a clerk of the condition? I've been working for NYCTso long a bell rings in my head if something like that happens around 3 PM on a Friday afternoon: did a bunch of rowdy school kids on their way home from school for the weekend activate the emergency stop button on those escalators? If they did, it is an NYPD problem, not transits'. Police coverage has been appaling since the TAP/NYPD merger.
Observed this afternoon on Brooklyn-bound F at East Broadway: One woman using an empty, open stroller to hold the doors open for about thirty seconds for two other women coming down stairs.
None of these women had a baby.
Nice little racket, huh?
Old racket, new twist. The twist? No baby in the stoller.
-Hank
I heard, that you guys had the same problem in the 80ies we have nower days. Our whole subway system is totally vandalized by spraypaint.We have about 330 cars in frankfurt/germany and we just can`t get them trains buffed, cause they get painted nearly every night in nearly 20 yards. How have you managed this problem?
Diligence. The policy was (and still is I guess) that any train with graffiti was immediately removed from service and cleaned. After a while they grew tired of the paint and started scratching the windows with sharp objects instead.
As Dave said. it takes perseverence and a willingness to bite the bullet. We developed a policy and strategy wherby trains were cleaned as soon as graffiti was found. By doing this, you deny the vandal the opportunity to see his work. They eventually get tired and go away.
I think the three layers of razor wire around the yards may help too. I think that CI yard looks like a prison facility... you have lots of lights, a tower and tons of razor wire.
Mike
All of the stairways at Court Street/Borough Hall Station are covered with signs which read "This Side Down" or "This Side Up" informing passengers that they need to keep to the right to avoid collisons and bottlenecks. Meanwhile the escalators leading to/from the M,N,R platform run contrary to this well posted mandate; the one on the right goes up while the one on the left goes down. Go Figure. Every morning when a train lets out at Court Street streams of passengers coming up on the left clash with passengers going down on the right.
I am not the only one who would love to grab the station manager by the collar and give him a good lecture. This person is nowhere to be found during the morning rush. Is there a number I can call???
At one time, the escalators Chris cited operated as Chris would like. However, I believe one of them (I forget which) had a problem that prevented it from working in the direction it was operating, but didn't prevent it from operating in the other direction. Rather than have both escalators operate in the same direction (or one on/one off), the escalator/elevator people switched directions on both escalators.
I believe these two machines will be up for replacement shortly.
David
Gee, my recollections of that station in the 1950s are that both escalators ran "up" and passengers going down used the stairs. I guess in those days they figured that escalators were only needed for going against gravity.
Maybe the reason why both escalators were going up was because that was the predominant flow of traffic direction. It is not uncommon for 2 escalators to go up for crowd control purposes.
apparently, they do also need to be run both ways for wear purposes. I found this out when I asked the question of a repairman at the SI Mall.
-Hank
As the SubwayBuff pointed out it is a gigantic task to get a supervisor to restart the escalators.
The Transit Authority must make safety the first priority.
Station Department has reduced the amounto f supervisors and escalator maintainers do not normally restart escalators as routine duties.
The station manager works nights. She is in charge of Court Street to 95 Street. The other field manager got a promotion.
Just wondering --
I know that the original LIRR across Jamaica Bay dates from the 1880s or so, but does anyone out there know when the elevated line between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park was built? Is it original, or did it replace an earlier ground-level line?
It a original elevated and LIRR own these line before they give it to MTA in the early 50s.
My question about that line is, was the line to Far Rockaway ever connected what is now the A line in the Rockaways. I have long presumed this was so. The area between the end of the A at Far Rock, and the beginning of the LIRR line, is occupied by a 1950s era shopping center, which was mostly vacant and in disrepair last saw.
I believe they built the Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway station after the line was transferred to NYCT. Prior to this, I believe the LIRR ramped up from its existing terminal to the elevated structure.
According to the linear map, the Rockaway El dates from the 1940s although I find this hard to believe. I would assume Aqueduct station and Woodhaven station also date from this period. Ozone Park seems older. You should see Woodhaven station- the rounded station structure is still there with trees and bushes growing round it and out of it...
Wayne
I believe that there was some kind of sweetheart deal in the works from sometime after WWII where the LIRR would upgrade the Rockaway (and Far Rockaway) line to rapid transit standards so the NYCTA could buy it and operate it. Otherwise, I think that the entire line would have been abandoned (except maybe, the branch to Far Rockaway).
I know in the early 50's one of the bridges was out and either shuttle bus service was used or the line was accessable from the Far Rockaway end only. As far as I know the LIRR never replaced the bridge and the current bridges were built by the NYCTA through some bond measure. I did not personally travel on the line at the time. However one of my friends did go out there on the train every year until the bridge (burned?) and the line was closed or otherwise inaccessable or too much trouble to get there. That all changed once the IND Fulton St Subway was connected to the improved eastern portion of the BMT Fulton Ave El, then shortly after that, the connection was made from the El to the former LIRR Rockaway line.
So, that comment about the shopping center out at the Far Rockaway Station would hold true. If that shopping center was built around 1955 +/-. Someone probably got a sweetheart deal on that real estate and made it commercially available at the time.
I have an early (pre WWI) picture of Hammels Junction at ground level.
Tthe Mott Ave and the LIRR Far rockaway via Valley Stream were joined together to form a loop. You can read about this in the book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George.The book details the history of rail services to the rockaways.
I don't know of any sweetheart deals, but it had nothing to do with the NYCTA, because they didn't exist at the time. My understanding was that the line from Howard Beach to Hammels was built almost entirely upon timber trestle, and there were frequent fires. Whether this can be attributed to vandalism, or a combination of third rail sparks and lots of dry, creosted wood, is unknown to me. When the city purchased the line, (I believe through the Board of Transpotation) The replaced most of the wooden structure with earthworks, the bridge approaches with some concrete (and probably timber supports, not having been underneath, I don't know) and that is the line as we know it today. The Mott Ave station that now exists is, I believe the newest part of the line. The Rockaway Park station is vintage LIRR.
-Hank
[My understanding was that the line from Howard Beach to Hammels was built almost entirely upon timber trestle, and there were frequent fires. Whether this can be attributed to vandalism, or a combination of third rail sparks and lots of dry, creosted wood, is unknown to me.]
According to Stan Fischler's book, discarded cigarettes were the main problem.
According to Stan Fischlers book, there's a lot of errors. It's very poorly edited, and some of the stuff seems to be just too far-out.
-Hank
According to the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George, the first service to the Rockaways over Jamaica Bay was by the New York, Woodhaven and Rockaway Railroad with service commencing August 26th, 1880. This railraod was taken over (merged) with the LIRRin August 1887. The elevated structure in the Rockaways was completed under a grade crossing eleimination project in 1942.
This book is a very good source of information on the Rockaway service of the LIRR and has loads of great pictures.
[According to Stan Fischlers book, there's a lot of errors. It's very poorly edited, and some of the stuff seems to be just too far-out.]
Yes, you're right about that. As interesting as the book may be, it does have some significant flaws. I'm still glad I bought it, though.
I've got a signed copy from the offical reception at the Museum. I've also got a signed copy of 'New York Transit Memories', which, according to various sources much older than I, mis-identifies some locations.
-Hank
When I say a sweetheart deal, there are two items;
1. The LIRR (or some entity) must have spent a considerable sum to erect the current Far/Rockaway concrete elevated structures. I am guessing, but, the bond issue that covered that re/construction must have been guaranteed or backed by NYC in some manner.
2. The cross channel line had to be completely rebuilt which the LIRR was not able or willing to do. So, there would not have been any reason for the LIRR to reconstruct the Far/Rockaway line if there had not been some sort of incentive (from NYC). So basically, NYC took the Rockaway line (problem) off the shoulders of the LIRR.
Not that that was a bad deal for NYC Rapid Transit, it was obviously a good deal in those terms. There are many instances were other cities of the present would like to have had the forsight to incorporate abandoned steam RR lines into the rapid transit layout of a metropolitan area. And, in some cases, it was. But for most, rapid transit became an archaic term, and any traces of rights of way that could have been used were paved or built over.
Are there any other views of this nature, pro or con?
[1. The LIRR (or some entity) must have spent a considerable sum to erect the current Far/Rockaway concrete elevated structures. I am guessing, but, the bond issue that covered that re/construction must have been guaranteed or backed by NYC in some manner.]
If I'm not mistaken, the City of New York paid for putting the Rockaway Line on an "el" structure.
David
From my understanding the city picked up the old LIRR Rockaway Line for 8 Million Dollars(with all the restructuring and substation ,cost was 56 million.The line itself was dated back to 1890s(1892). the line was damaged in a fire in 1950.
As far as I know, the NYCTA rebuilt the Far Rockaway line with the concrete "el" structure. It is very misleading to believe otherwise since that structure is physically similar to the LIRR Babylon Line "el" structure.
BTW, if the city fathers of that time had had the foresight they would have bought the old and little-used Bay Ridge Line from the LIRR and turned it into a "Cross-Brooklyn Railway". But, alas, that was not to be...
Doug aka BMTman
(Forsight to turn into rapid transit). In hindsight, with the LIRR not a public commuter railroad, the city would be better off it it was still part of the LIRR. The division of the TBTA surplus would be less unfair for the city, since it would have more LIRR service. The Rockaways are too far for a good subway ride, commuter rail would be faster. There would be less objection from the affluent, and people along the ROW, to hooking up the train to JFK since it would already be operating. No doubt the Arverne development would have happened. The money the city saved by not running the Rockaway line could have been used to extend the underground portion of the A to a big transfer station to the LIRR near Cross Bay.
But no one could have know the future of the LIRR, and that the MTA was in the cards, when the line was aquired.
I'd imagine that the city had fairly high expectations for the Rockaways when it agreed to take over the former LIRR line. Things obviously turned out quite different. Most of the beach users switched to Jones Beach and other places, Playland dwindled and eventually closed, and most of the neighborhoods declined. Today there are only a few decent parts left in the Rockaways, mainly at the west end of the Peninsula (starting about at the Beach 116 Street subway terminal) and at the very eastern end of Far Rockaway. Almost everywhere else is in sorry shape.
According to the line history that was posted here, the line on the penninsula was rebuilt to RT standards some time before the Cross Bay section was damaged by the fire, which is the section that was rebuilt by the city. Discovering who finded it would require some research. If you missed the 'Capsule History' click it.
-Hank
To clear up your question and the subsequent postings, here's a capsule history on the IND Rockaway Line. The original LIRR line across Jamaica Bay opened in 1892 and was electrified in 1905.
1941 - LIRR line on the Rockaway peninsula between Far Rockaway and Seaside stations is relocated from ground level to a reinforced concrete elevated structure designed for easy conversion to future rapid transit operation.
1950 - 1800 feet of LIRR Jamaica Bay trestle destroyed in a fire. The route is closed and all LIRR trains operate between Rockaway Park and Penn Station/Brooklyn via Valley Stream.
1952 - NY City buys the LIRR Rockaway Branch between White Pot Junction (Rego Park) and Rockaway Park/Far Rockaway.
1955-56: NYC Transit builds new concrete trestle to replace the old LIRR trestle across Jamaica Bay, including two new drawbridges.
1956 - IND trains begin running to Rockaway Park and Wavecrest using Fulton Street subway, a new connection to the BMT Liberty Avenue el, and connection to former LIRR line just east (south) of Rockaway Blvd. Station. LIRR Far Rockaway branch begins operating in present configuration between NY/Brooklyn and Far Rockaway via Valley Stream. LIRR also maintains limited service between Penn and Ozone Park via old Rockaway Branch as well.
1958 - current Mott Avenue station opens.
1962 - LIRR ends Ozone Park service.
So NYC owns the ROW from Rego Park to IND junction...
I wonder if there are any uses for this. Any ideas?
There have been many plans calling for its future use, but your guess is as good as mine as to the probability of it ever happening. For instance, the "Reducing Subway Overcrowding at the Manhattan CBD Cordons - Vol 1: The Queens Cordon" published in http://www.fta.dot.gov/fta/library/planning/queen/queen.html
proposes a Central Queens Subway here. The Full Third Regional Plan published by the RPA in http://maestro.com/~rpa/rxplan.html proposes this as an Rx link to Kennedy airport to Penn Station.
The IND Second System included a Myrtle-Central Ave.-Rockaway line which would have used LIRR ROW out to the Rockaways. It was one of the two proposed trunk lines from S. 4th St., the Utica Ave. line being the other. This line also included the Winfield Spur, which would have originated at the never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal station, and included tie-ins in both directions to the Queens line.
Andy -
Thanks for the info. I had always guessed that the elevated section was built around the 1930s, based upon the type of construction, but now I know.
Ed Sachs
http://www.nydailynews.com/1999-03-05/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-21499.asp
Calling the lawyers -
Who do you think will win this case?
As much as I tend to dislike lawsuits, this one just might serve a valid purpose if it leads to having intercoms or emergency call buttons installed in every subway car. I think it's criminally negligent that they weren't installed years ago.
A bunch of rowdy school kids with intercoms & emergency call buttons. Do you know how many false alarms & vandalism? All passengers are not civil! The Customer Alarm cars on the J were decommissioned because of those problems.
So preventing falling between cars beats allowing escape from trouble? Anyone old enough to ride the subway without a guardian should know about the safety concepts. As to emergency call equipment, the reality in New York may well be more cops onboard. I well remember in the late 60's when every train evening through late night had at least one who constantly walked the train, and in some areas several rode each, as well as one per station. Where will the money come from? A few less B-2's could buy the entire 2nd Ave line. It is long past time to reorder the money.
At one time the R-44/R-46 fleet had toggle switches inside the car as well as outside to unlock the end doors in an emergency. They were removed because they were mis-used by customers for moving between cars for nothing more than convenience or looking for a seat. If the end doors on the 75 foot cars were used ny customers only in emergency, I'd say that the switches should be restored. However, we all know what the facts are. I don't know what your experiences are but I've frequently had to cross between 75 foot cars while in motion. It can be a frightening experience. I, however, can not weigh the fear of crossing between cars vs the fear of being confronted by potential criminal harm. I do know that the greater potential for real harm is in crossing between 75 foot cars that are moving.
Sir, As a long time railfan(54) AND definitely concerned about safety, I make no general defense of crossing between 75 footers in motion on a curve. (Gone are the days of riding at the open vestibules on hot summer nights on the Lex) However, the severe problems with the overlength cars indicate an engineering mistake. Lockimg the doors is a poor response. I am reminded of the Slant 40's beloved by many. When delivered with only the low railing, they invited stupidity on the porches. The TA's first response was locking the doors.
And that general defect has been remedied by the much-maligned ironwork that graces the sloped ends of these cars (I myself do not object to the sight of these railings; I have become rather used to them). One thing remains to be fixed, however: why can't they put grab handles between the "B" ends of the Slant R40s and their brethren, the R40Ms. They have them on the R42s (slightly different body style than R40M); is there something that precludes putting them in on the R40 and R40M? I never cross the "B" end of either Slant R40 or R40M unless the train is dead stopped.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
Anyone who designs to make something foolproof underestimates a fool. Frankly, I never found locking end doors a problem but, then again, I have a key. I ride the trains every day (and night). Crossing between cars is only part of the problem. The number of people urinating or smoking between cars is really where the problem is. When you cross between cars, you usually use two hands to hold on. When engaged in those other activities, at least one hand is occupied. A sudden sharp turn to either side and the offender can easily slip between cars. When viewed as a whole, there is far more of that activity to worry about than the criminal activity which sparked this thread. Finally, if the end doors were unlocked, what's to guarantee that these miscreants would not use the unlocked doors to pursue their victim or even perpertrate their mayhem in more than one car.
[Finally, if the end doors were unlocked, what's to guarantee that these miscreants would not use the unlocked doors to pursue their victim or even perpertrate their mayhem in more than one car.]
That's an interesting point, as far as I know no one's raised it before. My guess is that unlocked end doors mainly would be useful in enabling riders to get away from noisome skells or obnoxious panhandlers. As you point out, unlocked end doors would be less of a help when it comes to predatory criminal types. Cases in point: as far as I can tell from media reports (admittedly, far from the full story), only one of the recent slashings *might* have been prevented had the victim been able to escape to the next car.
On the 75 foot cars, when they go through an especially tight curve, you will see that the end doors do not line up. There is a great chance of #1 falling between the cars, and #2 if you are an especially large person, getting squeezed between the two cars.
At least on the 60 and 51 foot cars, the anti-climbers stay relativly adjacent to each other for easier access from car to car.
I have seen that countless times - and the best demonstration of this is on the N or R lines north of Cortlandt Street. Picture yourself trying to cross between cars of an R46 or R68 as it whipsaws around those two curves. You'd never make it. I went through there on Slant R40 #4370 Sunday at about 3:25pm. That's also rather dangerous - there are no grab handles between the "B" ends. In fact, crossing between cars while the train is in motion even on a straightaway is ill-advised at best, dangerous at worst (however, the professionals of the train crews seem to be well-practiced at this). When I was a much younger man, I attempted to cross between the cars of an R-6/R-7 mix on the EE while it rounded the Cortlandt Street curves, just for the thrill of it (having had successfully done so earlier on a southbound R27/30 on the RR). I was about to step out between the two cars when the train whipped from the right turn into the left. I almost lost my balance. That stopped me dead in my tracks.
I treat sharp curves with respect when riding the Subway.
Wayne
During 1967, I would take the D from 205th St to 59th, transfer to the A all the way to Far Rockaway. I also traveled to Rockaway on the thru express that originated at 42nd & 8th Ave Station (lower level), and only made 2 or 3 stops (Euclid was one of them) before going onto the Rockaway line. I think the special express fare was $1 one way.
I can not remember if there was a special express return to 42nd St.
I think there was also a special express train to Acqueduct Race Track that departed from the 42nd St lower level platform and I assume that there was a return special train from the Acqueduct station.
Yes, Aqueduct Specials originated from the lower level at 42nd St. Did you take the escalator from the mezzanine back then? It was in the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine and was marked "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". If those specials did make the return trip to Manhattan, they probably turned off to Queens on the E line after 42nd St., since the lower level was and is accessible only by southbound E trains.
Those are my memories, getting a little fuzzy now, but another significant chapter in NYC transit history.
I was working at GPO at the time and there were times, that i could go down to PRR train to pick up or deliver mail from the RPO or I would just accompany the (armed) registered mail clerk on his trips down to the train. Wow, what an era that was.
On my days off suring the summer, I preferred going out to Far Rockaway for some ocean swimming. My favorite watering hole out there at that time was Sams on the Boardwalk. As a railfan, I also went out on one of the Acqueduct Specials, just so I could watch the movements after the trip out. Incidentally, the train pulled into the inbound platform. Then I waited for the next outbound for Rockaway.
And for some reason, I never took my camera along. I guess I never felt comfortable hauling my camera equipment around the NYC subway, even back then, except for fan trips, which I did not participate in at that time, if there were any. One thing that I never had the opportunity to do was span the Y from Rocakaway Beach to Far Rockaway.
You asked about the escalator at 42nd St. I think that was the only (controlled) access to the lower level outbound Rockaway & Acqueduct specials.
Again, I can not remember specifically any return specials, except that there must/may have been one for the Acqueduct trains. Isn't there a middle lay-up track north of the 8th Ave 42nd St station that would have provided the turn-back for any returning specials.
If memory serves the S Aqueduct Special would lv 42 St stbd M-F 10a-12n and on Sat 10a-1pm. On weekdays there was no return service, I believe that the trains were put back into regular E service for the evening rush since at that time (late 1960's) the E served Euclid and the Rockaways during the rush hours. It was on Saturdays that the service would get very interesting. It was the only day that return service was offered. Trains would start to leave Aqueduct Race Track at the conclusion of the 7th race and continue until the track closed.Half the trains would run as S Aqueduct Specials running form ART to Hoyt to 42 then make regular express stops to Continental and terminate. The other half operated as E 8th Avenue Express trains making regular express stops from ART to Continental.My mother and I used to vist a Times Square Store which I believe was on Pitkin Blvd and we would ride these E express trains back to Manhattan. Of course the extra fare was charged only if you rode the S train.
Regards,Larry
At about what time would the 7th race end? If it ended at around 5:00 PM on Saturdays, that would explain the oddly-marked train of R-1/9s we took once at Broadway-Nassau. I don't remember what the bulkhead signs were set to (possibly E), but the side signs did say S/Special. It ran express along 8th Ave., and when we got off at 42nd St., I watched the train as it pulled out. Sure enough, it switched to the Queens-bound track.
And to top it all off, the first car was an R-1 or R-4 with no headlights.
P. S. No, there is no layup track north of 42nd St. The Queens line tracks diverge at that point.
Yesterday afternoon I arrived at LGA at the USAirways Shuttle terminal, but had to stop at the Marine Air terminal for an appointment before coming in to Manhattan. The usual way to do this is take the Route B shuttle, a free Port Authority bus that loops around LGA. But with no PA bus in sight, an M-60 pulls up! Since I know that the M-60 goes to the Marine Air terminal before proceeding to Manhattan, I took out my FunPass, got on, and dipped... just riding within the airport. After my appointment at Marine Air, I got on another bus for my trip into town.
I wonder if there are other places in the city where can normally take a free shuttle, but if you have an unlimited MetroCard, it's just as easy to dip and ride?
The first obvious one is the Q10 around JFK.
Sorrr, Aaron; you are incorrect. The Q-10 is NOT a free bus;Not even in the Airport area. You must always dip.
You are right that the Q-10 is not free! My point was that if you have an unlimited MetroCard, you can use a "fare" bus as a substitute for a free shuttle, if more convenient to do so.
Maybe the other posters point was that the Q-10 doesn't go to the long term parking lot, or the IND A train station at Howard Beach, for that you'll need the Port Auth shuttle.
P.S. I enjoyed "Traffic & Weather Togather" this weekend !
Mr t__:^)
Agreed, Mr. T. It was one of those spur of the moment things; while waiting at the USAirways terminal for the Port Authority free shuttle bus to get me to the Marine Air terminal side, the M-60 came along. I unwrapped my FunPass and dipped! (It was one of the new low-floor Orion buses, and the farebox kept saying "Read Error" when I dipped my newly unwrapped FunPass. So the operator told me to stay on, and give it to a Subway Station Agent to check out. But when I got on the Q-47 to take me to Roosevelt Avenue, it dipped/read fine, and swiped/read fine too for the rest of the day.)
We've been having a lot of MC "Read errors" which seem to relate to the "TPU", i.e. MC reader, but the TA shop is in denial. I believe it was "Lou from Brooklyn" that reported a similar problem months ago.
Part of the problem is that the R/W head gets dirty & the cleaning pad doesn't get it all.
Well pardon me for rambling on about a work problem ....
Mr t__:^)
Todd and Aaron, please do not take offense.I just did not want anyone who has a "time card" to assume and dip and lose a fare unnecessarily.
I'd like to make the following request. Is there anyone out there with expired "7-Day" and especially "30-DAY" and "30-DAY Reduced Fare Pass". I collect these items as a hobby, due to my extreme interest in public transportation networks from all over the world.
Thank you for your time.
For the record:
-Q10 (Greenbus Lines) goes from Kew Gardens to JFK. It does make a circuit around the airport.
- At La Guardia there are several bus lines, the M60 comes from Manhattan, but the Q33 & Q48 will also get you off that airport.
Mr t__:^)
Todd, try this on any "Subway shuttle" . It is supposedly "free" but not every Hardhead is told this.
In the NY Post for Saturday March 6, page 12, is a small article about three people being injured in three different slashings. One on the D train near the Grand Street station in Manhattan. The second slashing on a southbound #4 train at 125th Street. The third at Smith and 9th street on a northbound F train.
Your thoughts on this is most welcome.
As the Sgt on Hill Street Blues always said, ''Let's be careful out there.''
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
You know what we need? Paul Kursey riding the subways! And may be cameras. That would bring crime down. Also why not install vastibules
on cars. Like the LIRR. That way passengers can pass through be not fall on to the tracks.
Make that four slashings; there was another reported on the D train between 145th Street and 155th Street-8th Avenue; the perps got off at 155th.
As for vestibules or flexible curtains between 75-foot cars; I think the curves on NYCT are too sharp to make this practical. I know of only two sharp curves on the entire LIRR; one on the Hempstead Branch between Garden City and Country Life Press and the other on the Far Rockaway/Long Beach branch, just east of Jamaica. All the other curves are very broad. I don't think one of those would hold together going round some of NYCT's serpentine curves, esp. on the lower Broadway Line, where 75-foot cars are common.
Wayne
These are just the incidents that the news media has learned about and reported.Weds. past I was on a s/b Delta at the 7 ave station when there was a report of a shooting on a n/b delta i never saw or read anything concerning this.
While tragic let's remember that the media has a way of draweing attention to subway crime. People get killed in fast food restaurants, people get killed at post offices. people get killed on their job. No one says "Stop going to the post office ".
Please! let's put subway crime in perspective. The subways are still safer than the streets. If people would use common sense there woduld be less of a problem--If someone wants your seat, let them have it. I'd rather stand or find another seat than be knifed. I sugegst during off-hours that you ride in the same car as the conductor or train operator. If you feel uncomfortable tell them-they have radios and can call the police. If you see a police officer and feel uncomfortable about another passenger do not hesistate to tell ther officer--especially if the passenger is what we'd call EDP--Emotionally Disturbed Person.
***disclaimer--while I am a station agent and some material is based on official info, the post contains personal opinions and not those of MTA or NYCT.***
Yes, Everything you said was absolutly currect,But one problem. Everytime a person complains about a Emotionaly Disurbed Person I call Control and all they say is "Train Operator signal in route for Police." But the police never respond. I give up!
If more incidents like these occur, the press may start asking Guliana and Safir whether or not it was such a smart idea after all to merge the transit police in to the rest of the police department.
Did Rudy ever admit he was wrong? About anything?
He never has been wrong about anything!
In the NY Daily News Sunday March 7, page 8, are two new articles on the now 4 people who were slashed on the subway's.
The person who was slashed on the D train at 155th Street and 8th Ave is doing ok.
I take the D train from Bedford Park Blvd to and from work and i pass the 155th Street and 8th Ave stop. It is a desolate stop and is the stop where you can get off go to the old Polo Grounds when the Giants baseball team used to play.
When you read both articles your thoughts on this are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In the NY Post Sunday March 7, page 12, is also an article about the 4th person who was slashed at 155th Street and 8th Ave on the D train on Saturday March 6. The NY Post said it happened at 12:50 am and the NY Daily News said it happened at 2:52am.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I hope that when it's time to buy replacement cars for the 600 foot train length B division routes, consideration would be given to buying 5 car linked 60 foot units rather than 4 75 foot units. The overwelming majority of readers of this thread know that turns in many areas are too sharp to allow unlocked end doors on 75 foot cars. Yes, you can get slashed in a car with unlocked end doors (as what happened on the #4), but in a 75 foot car, if you see a suspicious looking character, you can't get off till the next station. It's a long ride between 125th & 59th Streeets or over the Manhattan Bridge. By then, it may be too late. With my proposal, even with the locked #1 end of the A car for the transverse cab, you can still get out of the #2 end in an emergency. Also, NYCT lately has been saddled with far too many incidents of doors failing to open enroute at stations. Just a few days ago, 2 cars of an R68 N train had door opening failure at several stations. It was necessary for the passengers to pull the cord to notify the crew.
If the legal action over the locked doors is successful, I doubt the MTA will order any more 75-footers. But since the R-32s/38s/40s/42s and R-44s figure to be around at least until 2010, it will be a while before they have to make that decision.
He probably has a sign in his office which says,
Rule #1: The mayor is always right.
Rule #2: If the mayor is ever wrong, please see rule #1.
Never mind the "The buck stops here" sign; that went out with Harry Truman.
After several years, I am of the opinion that the merging of the NYC Transit Police Force with the NYPD was a mistake as it affected transit. The police now seem to be less responsive and less sensative to transit concerns and needs. While it's nice to know that an executive order has moved extra police under ground in the wake of the recent mini-crime wave, it should also be noted that the police forces under-ground are less concerned about and less knowledgable of transit's special needs. One contradiction tot he above is the transit vandal squad which does an excellent job.....
Of course, by this time we all know that there were actually 4 slashings within 24 hours. The mayor has ordered increased police presence on the trains, too. There appears to be a copy-cat mentality that is running amok on the subways. Lets face it though: Unless theres a cop on every car of every train, on every station platform and every mezzanine, someone bent on crime will commit one.
The Artwork is entitled "When the Animals Speak" by Elizabeth Grajales 1998.. The main pices are on the end walls of the express platform. The South mosaic features a 9 by 14 foot mural of a lion with a bird on his back facing his mate. The North panel features a 15 foot by 13 foot bear looking toward a deer and her young. The small panels are 12inch square ceramic panels and depict birds courting,nest-building and nurtunring their young.
SOURCE: Official MTA Arts for Transit Flyer.
DAVE: Wayne has photos coming. Please add to the description of the station.
The following stations are now undergoing renovation:Broadway-Nassau IND, 34th/8th Ave. While I have no info yet, I expect artwork will be added to both stations. As far as Broadway-Nassau, the renovation includes the Fulton Street 2/3 Mezzanine and the connecting passageways to the A/C ; J/M/Z, and the 4/5.
I may add the reason for the artwork is a new federal requirement-the same reason that federal office buildings have "all that artwork"
I hope the artwork looks like the animal mosaics they have at the Fifth Avenue station.
BTW, some idiot wrote graffiti on one of the polar bears this week.
That is too bad! However that is high-glaze tile and with a little solvent that should come right off with no lasting damage (if it's ink; spray paint could be tougher to remove). Kids who do that should be made to remove their tags themselves and do community service.
Wayne
I hope the artwork looks like the animal mosaics they have at the Fifth Avenue station.
BTW, some idiot wrote graffiti on one of the polar bears this week.
That is too bad! However that is high-glaze tile and with a little solvent that should come right off with no lasting damage (if it's ink; spray paint could be tougher to remove). Kids who do that should be made to remove their tags themselves and do community service.
Wayne
Does anyone out there know on when F express service in Brooklyn will return & how many car sets are needed for the F express. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
The F express will not return until there is enough money, and enough cars, to run at least 8 trains (preferably 10) per hour on both the local and the express during rush hours. That would take a lot more trains. Paying for them would require a lot more riders, and perhaps a lower cost per ride as well.
Another, less optimistic answer, is that the F express will return when the Manhtattan Bridge is shut down for a long time, if not for good, and everyone who now rides the D, Q, N or B has to take a 30 minute bus ride, and then board the F.
Just enjoyed the listing of movies filmed in and/or featuring the NYC Subway. Please add to the list the following: "The Brother from Another Planet" (1984), directed by John Sayles (I think). It's about a black alien who finds himelf on Earth. It has been many years since I've seen it, but I remember at least two scenes in the subway, including the final shot of Joe Morton looking out of the rear window of a departing train.
Speaking of subway movies...
American Movie Classics featured The Wrong Man with Henry Fonda this past Saturday, but I MISSED it!! By the time I saw it listed in my TV Guide, it was too late.
I was watching the show Brimstone on Fox yesterday...the pilot which was set in New York City, and there was some fake subway history. The deceased guy was supposedly in New York from 1896 to 1906(when he was hung). He brings with him some subway tokens. I thought they were still using tickets in 1906? And he later hangs out in the abandoned eastern fork of the Lexington Avenue Line, which was supposedly bricked up around the war. Nice to know that they at least knew the name of one of the subway lines.
Is my knowledge of the subways so lacking that I missed these things? Or did they make it up, becuase NYC subway history isn't interesting enough? Or they didn't want to bother with a five minute bit of research here at nycsubway.org?
Honestly, would it be so hard for these movies to be accurate?
They probably did use tickets at that time. I may be mistaken but when the fare was 5 cents and 10 cents I thought the subway used nickels and dimes not tokens. They started using tokens when the fare was raised to 15 cents requiring two coins instead of one. I am not sure but even after the fare was raised to 15 cent I don't think the busses accepted tokens until they went to exact fare.
As for the Lexington Avenue Line I dont think any part was abandoned. However, the south ferry shuttle was discontinued in the 1970s. The track is still used as a turn around loop for Lexington avenue expresses that terminate at Bowling Green in lower Manhattan..
I'm aware of the last thing. I watched a turn-around the last and only time I was at South Ferry. Or rather a 5 train stopping in the loop.
Based on what Hollywood has done in recent years, they probably got it mixed up with the history of the Toronto subway.
That was the original episode that I saw and mentioned here back in November.
And what do they get for inaccurate history?
Fox will not pick them up for a second season.
When the original Interborough opened in 1904, you went to a ticket booth and bought a ticket that a guard using a "ticket chopper" took from you and chopped up. This had been used on the els (owned by the IRT at the time) previously, so was adopted when the foirst lines opened. The BRT/BMT also used this system at first; but when ridership got extremely high and also to save money they finally introduced turnstiles about 1923(?) or so. Then you could get change at the old ticket booths. When they raised the fare to 15 cents in 1953..they made the 'change' booths token booths...
The IND had turnstiles right from the beginning. The last station to use ticket choppers was 161st St. on the IRT, where they remained in use until 1948. My father still remembers watching his cousin drop dimes in the turnstiles on the BMT in 1949.
You guys make me feel awfully old! I can remember dropping nickels into turnstiles on both the BMT and IRT. You wouldn't believe the chaos that resulted when the fare was doubled.
In Baltimore the fare went from 5 cents to a dime in 1930. The new Peter Witts and the "hoity-toity" Double Deck buses on Charles Street (A Line) and Mount Royal Avenue (B Line) got electric one-coin-at a time fareboxes. The boxes took only tokens or dimes - in a city that was "Nickel Town" right through the 1960's. Every passenger using tokens - no problem, but everybody with cash had to change the two nickels into a dime, which went in the slot. After two weeks of this, the Witts got manual Johnson "D" fareboxes. The buses - they kept the fancy fareboxes - their loading wasn't as crush as a streetcar.
At BSM we got one of the 12 volt boxes. At 12 volts, the tokens/dimes get pitted by the current. I shudder to think what happened on the Witts - those boxes were 600 volt models.
"Nickel Town" - my changer was (and is)unusual - I had a dime barrel. If I got 2 dimes on a run, it was unusual. The fare in 1963 was 25 cents - and if the passenger didn't have a quarter, five nickels went in the box, not 2 dimes and a nickel. Only recently (1980 or so) have dimes made much of an inroad. On today's MTA buses somebody paying the $1.35 for a single ride will deposit a dollar bill, a quarter and two nickels in the farebox.
Or one could drop US$3.00 into the farebox for an all-day pass. Senior citizens and the handicapped get an even better deal: 45 cents per single ride, or US$1.00 for an all-day pass.
I would imagine there were howls of protest when the fare went up to 15 cents in 1953. It was 20 cents when we moved to New Jersey in 1967.
The choppers at 161 st were only used after Yankee games where there was a big crowd.......
Hey, it's FOX. If it isn't the 'Worlds Wildest...' or something that 'Attacks', they don't NEED to get the facts. Coming soon, from FOX:
'When Subways Attack World's Wildest Pregnant Cattle Chases 3!'
-Hank :)
Based on various subtalk postings here and my own observations, I've come up with a few thoughts that I want to share with you.
R62As on the 1: 5 car link pin project continues. I was riding in car 2171 today, which has a transverse cab and made note of the following: the panel that was extended outward to meet the door has something previous transverse cabs don't have. The panel that meets the door doesn't have a window! Instead, a steel panel was fastened here and an advertising rack is in this location.
R62As on the 3: no major work done yet. However, I did notice that on car 1931, a red sticker has appeared on the car's roofline above the cab. What is that you ask? Looks like they're going to extend the cabs on these cars. If the TA gets their way, all R62As will be converted into 5 car sets. Transverse cabs on the 3? Sure. Let's say for argument sakes the 5 car project takes effect on the 3. What happens now? A section of Lenox Yard would have to be abandoned or used for something else. 10 car 3 trains would have to be stored somewhere. 137 St Yard seems to be the best candidate for that. I highly doubt that the TA would be willing to invest in any money in extending the Lenox Yard Tracks.... Anyway, certain 3s could start out of 137 St, particularly during the rush hour. They (TA) did it during Lenox Rehab, so it's not that unrealistic. We could say at least for the start, the cars will remain single in anticipation that they will feed the 42nd St Shuttle and any yard cutbacks in Lenox Yard would have to be discussed.
R62As on the 6: 1651-1670 have now been converted into 5 car sets. These are running on the opto shift. How can Westchester Yard convert R62As if 1909 is wrecked? Something will have to stay single OR, you bring 1909 back.
The Shuttle Situation is more complicated; postings here have had conflicting reports. Westchester Yard will no longer have the shuttle assignments soon; supposedly these are going to Livonia Yard. But if Livonia is going to the 5 car conversion process, then what does that do to the shuttle? Abandon a platform at 42 St and extend the other platforms to accomodate 5 cars? Is it realistic? Someone stated that TRACK 4 would be abandoned. Why? It's connected to 7th Av. I thought the most logical place to abandon a track is three being the middle track. You can cover over track three, and leave the tracks against the wall. Whatever the case maybe, I'll safely assume that at least for the meantime, cars on the shuttle will remain single. Leaving them single means that they don't have to make any modifications to the shuttle stations.
What happens ultimately on the 7 depends on how far this project goes. It seems in my opinion, that the R62As are unlikely if there are no spares available. They COULD permanently run 10 car sets, and cut the platforms. But why bother? The R142s will probably wind up here, if the cars can be reconfigured into 6 car units, as various reports state.
Unfortunately, the R62As are losing their single identity.
-Constantine
What would you do about 145 St. station? That station can only fit 4 cars, and on a 10 car train, the conductor has to operate 5x5.
If the north and south bound platforms at 145st are the same length then there will not be a problem with 10 car train at that station. Currently they operate with 4 cars South, 5 cars North. North bound, 5 cars fit nicely in 145 st. If I remember correctly, South bound there is one full car in the station to the rear of the conductors position.
Two weekend ago when the No. 1 had a major Genaral Order the No. 3 trains that went to South Ferry had 10 cars and was able to open up 5 Cars. The No.2 also had GO'S were they went to 148 St. Theres only one problem on the Southbound Plat the Conductor has no board so the T/O has to give 2 Buzzers.
From this B Division Motorman, thanks for the clarification. I was told in the past that 145 St. is the reason why the #3 only ran 9 cars. So then, I assume the A division doesn't have enough cars for 10 car service on the #3. I would think #2 & #3 trains sharing common trackage for such a large portion of their routes would cause passenger loading problems due to passengers having one less car to load onto.
On the No.3 Line car No. 1915 is transvers.
1651-1915 are on the 6, Mr. Foster! 1916-2155 are on the 3.
If the shuttle assignments are going to be handled by Livonia, then transverse cabs are inevitable on the 3. Remember that the 42nd Street Shuttle operates OPTO so the full width cabs are absolutely necessary.
I don't see OPTO leaving us anytime soon, do you???
-Constantine
Currection that must of been car 1916 Transvse on the No.3 at Times Squre. Also OPTO like it or not is here to stay and I will aviod it as long as I can but if I have to do it it will be a very slow ride! I'll take 1 Min at each stop if I have to. Then follow those posted speed signs and answer all questions from the Costomers. Lets see how long that takes.
Ok. That answers my question. Still this conversion process is hectic. How does the Operations and Planning Department (or whoever else is in charge) propose to link 1906-1910 when 1909 is supposed to be wrecked following an accident in 1996???? Leave them single? Or store them as spares until some other accident occurs? What about it David?
Hey Steve, what do you think?
-Constantine
I wish I new that Question. They will probably leave them single. Hey if I go back to the No.6 Line i'll find out.
Maybe they'll grab another car at random like they did with
1700-1699-1698-1697-....1743. I didn't get a look at 1743's interior so I can only guess as to whether it had a transverse cab.
Here's how I spot possible transverse cabs - if the first car's unit number ends in 1,5,6 or -0-, there's likely a transverse cab in it.
Wayne
In 1991, it was decided that when the R-46s were to be linkad into 4-car units (half way through overhaul) they would be renumbered in the now familiar Even-odd-odd-even sequence where the odd nuber was the even number + one. This was followed through with the R-44s and then with the R-68As and now the R-68s. While the logic of the R-44 or R-46 is evident, since there were no 'A' or 'B' cars in the R-68s or R-68A fleets, the logic on the even-odd-odd-even sequence is lost. More bizzar is the fact that 9 R-68s will not be linked. They will be retained as single car units. However, they will come from the middle of the deck so to speak. The nine unlinked cars will likely be 2716 - 2724 (go figure). Now we fast-foward to the IRT. There the R-62s were linked in a logical sequence 1-2-3-4-5 or 6-7-8-9-0 (I think). My guess would be that the greatest number of consecutive 5-car links will be done and the missing car numbers will be filled in by odd cars where a 5-car link could not be created due to missing cars in the sequence. If this is confusing, I don't blame you cause I'm lost too.
Yes, they seem to be doing exactly that. To wit, the odd bunch #1431-2-3-4...1438. They were helped along there because they lost an entire bunch (5 units) in the Union Square wreck. They'll no doubt fill in #1909's spot by grabbing another car from somewhere, maybe from the #3 fleet. It seems that they're starting at the low end of the fleet (#1651), so if they continue along those lines, they're a ways away from #19xx.
Is #1909 beyond any hope of repair? That is a side impact injury there, no?
Wayne
It was my recollection that the R44s were renumbered first, as
they came back from overhaul. The R46 cars came back linked into
4 car sets, and then after they were already in service with the
original numbers the new numbers were applied. Of course they
were just renumbered where they stood, so there is no rhyme or
reason to the resulting translation map. I've never heard a
good "pro" for doing this, other than making the numbers look
pretty on the trains as they go by.
These bloody trains are crowded enough without the MTA converting to full cabs. Where exactly do they expect people to ride? On the roof?
I'll have to agree with you, sir. You are losing seats, and you're losing a great view of the outside (that is from the front window). The seats in the Japanese and French Canadian cars known as R62s/R62As were probably made for smaller backsides. As the story goes, a NYC council woman insisted that the new cars (back in the 1980s) have 44 seats for passengers. She got her way; bucket seats appeared, but were unfortunately for smaller fannies. Most larger people tend to take up more than one seat. Now in the 1990s, you get a ticket for taking up more than one seat (the Mayor's Quality of Life Issue). However, the reason for the full width cab is for train operator comfort. Most operators prefer this to the smaller, narrower cab. Also, with this One Person Train Operation scheme, conductor's controls are located on both sides of the full width cab, so the train operator can go from one side of the car to the other without going in between cars.
-Constantine
This whole site is brilliant. I'm looking for similar sites to this from around the world to add to my fun site about travelling on the London Underground. Please take a look at my site and sign my guest book to let me have your views.
“Going Underground” is a great site for tourists, local Londoners and anyone with an interest in public transport. But most of all, it's good fun. It tells you all you need to know about travelling
on the London Underground with excellent links to other useful sites. There's comment, chat, funny characters, books to read and lots and lots of other info too.
src="http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/254/gulogo2.gif">
Going Underground - a fun site about travelling on the London Underground
Sorry I seemed to screw up posting my logo earlier hope this works now:
Going Underground - a fun
site about travelling on the London Underground
You should start with our Transfer Station and go from there to find some more interesting sites!
-Dave
FYI: At the Transit Museum store in Grand Central they are selling a video about the Third Avenue El.
It's in color, runs 11 minutes and retails for $19.95. It has some great shots of Manhattan in the late 1940's-early '50's.
If you're a museum member be sure to show your member card and get 10% off. I bought it on Thursday and there were plenty of copies left.
$19.95 for 11 minutes? No wonder there are a lot of copies left.
What is the danger of crossing a 75 foot car? The Daily News said something about a whip affect. Anyone can explain what they mean by this? I seen the end of 75 foot cars round the curve on the F line in Coney Island. Maybe there should be auto switches that lock door when
the train turns and then unlocks after rounding the curve.
Adjacent 75-foot cars `whip' out of alignment more then 60-footers or the IRT's 50-footers because of their larger turning radius. That makes the angle between the two cars greater and increases the shift back and forth when the train enters and leaves a curve.
A curve lock would work only if you could assure the door is closed and nobody was trying to walk between the cars just before the train entered the curve. There's no way the MTA can make sure that doesn't happen, especially on an F coming out of QP at rush hour.
Say, I always wonder how LIRR/MNRR and Amtrak, which have longer cars, can be safe to cross through. They even have that articuated type enclosure preventing anyone from falling out from between cars.
Amtrak, MNRR and LIRR do not have the tight radius curves that the NYCT has.
Amtrak, LIRR and MNCR cars also have extensions that completely eliminate any gap between the cars.
-Hank
Cab ends of LIRR and Metro North MU's fit quite closely together. I doubt that there is enough room for someone to fall out even if they tried. Contrast that to the subway, where there is a considerably greater distance between cars.
Durring a snow storm one Winter, I was able to get inbetween the cars to enter & exit the train (it was packed), in retorspect it was a pritty dumb move on my part.
Mr t__:^)
Is the distance from the centerpoint of the truck of, say, an R46 to its coupler any different from the same dimension on an Amtrak, NJT, LIRR, or MBTA coach car with enclosed vestibules?
The curves at Coney Island are rather wide,which might create the impression that it's no more dangerous crossing between 75 footers than 60 footers. For a real comparison check out a tight curve,such as between City Hall and Cortlandt on the N/R. There,with 75 footers,it's easy to see how a person between cars could be crushed by the interaction of the car bodies.
There's a turn like this in Chicago where Metra-Union Pacific trains are coming out of the downtown terminal. Even though the passage between cars is totally enclosed so nobody can fall out, you would NOT want to be in there because, as you put it, "a person between cars could be crushed by the interaction of the car bodies." Specifically, on a turn, the ends of the cars SLIDE past each other, and on a sufficiently narrow or "hard" turn, the *lateral* space between the doorway of one car and the doorway of the next shrinks to a point where it's too small for a person to survive!
This Satuarday Morning at 9:40AM there was a major Police action that started at 28 St-Park Ave on the No.6. Police was casing someone that ran onto the tracks so there was No service from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. No 5 train were running down the Westside to South Ferry. Service did not go back to normal intil about 10:45AM.
At 11:00 I had my own problems I was coming taward 181 ST I spoted a person jump from the Uptown platform. I was going Uptown. I saw a dark figure cross the track to the Downtown. So a take a hard brake and blast the horn. I spoted the guy on the Southbound track. He was walking south taward 168 ST. Then a seen a southbound No.1 at 191 St. So I call control. So control ignors me at first. Then a yell 12-1. Control argent! Then they say What train is calling? I told them my call letters. Then they ask for operating motor. So I give it to them.Then I tell them I'm leaving 181 and spoted Unauthorized on the roadbed walking south of 181 ST toward 168 St. Then they asked for my call letters again. I tell them again. Now the train is upproaching me. So I tell him whats happing because I gave up on control. So the other T/O acknowledged me. So he tells control that hes the 10:57 Van Courtland approaching 181 St. So control keeps asking me the same Qestions. So the then He finally gets my Info. Then now he keeps asking the other T/O the same question over and over again.
Don't blame control so much David. The radio reception all along that stretch from 137 to Dykman is especially poor. There are loads of dead spots. It's something they are working on.
I would like to know on when 6th Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service will return & where will 6th Av service operate, either the Jamaica Av or Myrtle Av lines & where will it terminate along 6th Av. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
I don't work for the TA, and don't have any inside knowledge. I have never heard it proposed, however. Before coming onto NYC subway resources a year or two ago, I had no idea that connection was there. My guess is most other people don't know its there either.
It is conceivable that when the 63rd connection opens, instead of one additional local with 12 trains per hour going through at rush hour, the TA could send two additonal 6th Avenue locals through. In that case, one might run out to Jamaica Center as the Z.
But one of the questions is, will the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge be closed at the same time that the 63rd St tunnel opens? In that case, the 63rd St tunnel trains could be directed down the Broadway line and out to Brooklyn.
When the bridge switches sides, there will be 3 expresses on Broadway. one always switches to the local track and goes to Astoria, but that would leave 2 lines going through 63rd St from Bway, and nowhere to turn one of them. That would leave 3 Bway services on Queens Blvd., and I just don't see them doing anything like that. They probably won't use the Broadway connection during this phase. They'll just use 57th St as the terminal as always.
(Three expresses on QB, won't be done). I'm not sure.
I think you would have just four services on the Broadway line, three express (B, D, N) and one local (R). The local and one express could go to Astoria via 60th St, and the other two expresses could go to the Queens Blvd local via 63rd St.
What about the Q? It could become the QJ/QZ, and take the place of the N in the Montigue tunnel.
If you are going to run trains from the north to lower Manhattan on 6th Avenue and stop, and trains from the south to Midtown via Broadway and stop, you are going to need more trains to cover the overlap areas. To conserve cars, the trains have to run through.
The TA isn't going to choose the best service, its going to choose either the cheapest of the least change (since things will have to change back, and some people may like a new service pattern). If Steve is right about a car shortage, I vote for the cheapest.
The cheapest would be to terminate 6th Avenue express service at 34th (or better yet Rock Center, where you would squeeze on the F), and run as many trains through from Brooklyn to Queens as you can.
I don't think it is even being considered. There was a problem with the K: because so many people were used to taking the F to Delancey to change for Jamaica trains, and so many more F trains were scheduled, most took the F anyway rather than wait for a K.
I would like to know on what the service plans are for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection when it opens in 2001 with & without the Manhattan Bridge flipflop. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
As I said, I don't have any inside knowledge, I don't think anyone here does. Maybe they'll need four plans -- one with the A/B tracks of the Manhattan Bridge closed and the H tracks open, one with the H tracks closed and the A/B tracks open, one with both opened, and one with both closed.
That's what the East River Crossing study did. Each service Plan was designated as -N, -S, -O, and -C (North open, South, fullu open and fully closed)
Does anyone know what the tracks are used for going parallel to the NY Thruway on the way to Albany. Also the bridge next to the Mid-Hudson Bridge going in to Poughkeepsie?
the tracks north of kingston are part on the river line. the brigde at poughkeepsie is the l+h line from maybrook ny to hopewell jct.
[Does anyone know what the tracks are used for going parallel to the NY Thruway on the way to Albany. Also the bridge next to the Mid-Hudson Bridge going in to Poughkeepsie?]
If you're talking about the stretch of the Thruway north of Suffern, along Harriman State Park, those tracks are Metro-North's Port Jervis line. This line is jointly operated with New Jersey Transit, starting in Port Jervis with stops at Otisville, Middletown, Salisbury Mills/Cornwall, and Harriman (and maybe one or two others). After Suffern, it uses NJ Transit trackage into Hoboken. Manhattan-bound riders can transfer to PATH at Hoboken. Even though it's a long run from Port Jervis and some of the other New York stops, ridership is pretty good; compared to some of the other long-haul commuter roures, the Port Jervis line is at least equal in ridership to the LIRR's Montauk line and much better than the LIRR's Greenport line or Metro-North's Waterbury branch.
The Poughkeepsie bridge saw service for nearly 100 years; not only did it see RR service but for a brief time at the beginning of the century trolley cars were towed across the bridge from Highland to Poughkeepsie (this service didn't last long, however - not only did it tie up traffic on the bridge but many passengers were scared of the height above the river and continued to take the ferry). It burned in May 1974, near the Poughkeepsie end, apparently from a hotbox or some other train-borne ignition source. (I drove the last vehicle under the fire area northbound on Route 9 before the police closed the road due to falling debris.) Although there was a fire protection system on the bridge, it had been allowed to fall into disrepair by Penn Central and did not activate. There was some slight structural damage to the bridge from the heat of the fire but the main damage was to the ties and rail. Penn Central didn't have the money for rehabilitation and petitioned for abandonment, which (if I remember correctly) occurred by default when Conrail was created in 1976. The right-of-way on the Poughkeepsie side is largely intact (some connecting bridges over highways have been removed), but I believe that there have been significant encroachments on the Ulster County side of the river. There has been an ongoing dispute over who legally owns the bridge - several individuals and groups are claiming ownership (does anyone have more info on the current status - my dearly beloved Aunt Hilda, of blessed memory, was my source of information until her death in January 1997). At one time about five years ago about half of the bridge, beginning at the west side, was planked and fenced as an observation deck, but access was cut off as part of the ownership fracas and I'm not sure if it has been restored.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's an interesting web site about the P'keepsie Bridge.
http://www.inch.com/~ziggy/RREXTRA.HTM/pbpage.Html.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave - I had no idea the site existed. Unfortunately it doesn't answer all my questions, but, knowing Bill Sepe's reputation, it doesn't surprise me that he's in the thick of things. Hopefully I'll have a chance this summer to check it out in person.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry to jump in so late on this one-I've been busy(ier).
When I was a young'un in the late 40's, my family summered in Woodstock, NY (waaaay before the concert). Before the Thruway was built, we often took Route 9 & 9W, crossing at Poughkeepsie. This took us under the bridge, and the thing I remember best was the coal nets. That scared me, because I figured smaller pieces could fall right through and smash onto the car.
BTW, I don't recall ever watching a train, steam or otherwise, crossing the bridge.
As a Poughkeepsie native (although I hate to admit it - I consider myself a Southerner since I've spent as much of my life south of the Mason-Dixon line as I have north of it) I've been under the bridge many times. My living room is graced by a large color photograph taken from the Mid-Hudson bridge approach (Poughkeepsie side) by my great-uncle, of blessed memory, back about 1938, showing a steam train crossing the bridge and the ferry approaching the Poughkeepsie shore beneath. I remember seeing freight trains crossing the bridge in the NH and Penn Central eras (all diesel - I remember very little steam anywhere except for Steamtown, Vermont and other such places) and a major derailment about five miles east of the bridge in the mid-60s at a spot known as Brickyard Hill.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't this the same bridge which the Dayliner used to turn around at? This was the boat which left daily from, I believe, Pier 81 at W. 41st St. and headed north up the Hudson River. It docked at Bear Mountain and West Point, then continued north to the Poughkeepsie Bridge, where it turned around. There used to be a TV commercial for this boat ride back in the late 60s. We considered taking a cruise on it, but never did.
Yes, it is. My Grandmother, long of blessed memory (and who lived in Yonkers when I was small), took me on the Dayliner ride once and I remember being most confused as to why it wasn't stopping to let us off when we got to Poughkeepsie (I was no more than 4 years old at the time).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if the Dayliner is still in business. It was included in my Seeing New York book from 1976. I still remember the TV commercial word for word.
Did you ever take the cruise up the Hudson to spend the day at Bear Mtn? It was a nice park but from the moment you arrived until you left you would hear over the PA system over and over again, "The buses are now leaving for the boat landing, Get your buses here, The fare is only ten cents, The buses will take you directly to the boat landing" If you spent the day at Bear Mtn. you could hear this announcement hundreds and hundreds of times. Of course I am talking about the 1950's time period. It was fascinating to see the rows and rows of rusting Libery Ships anchored along the route as you traveled up the river and back.
Ah yes, the mothball fleet near Peekskill! I also have fond memories of the Beacon-Newburgh ferry before the bridge was built. Mother didn't like driving 9W so, rather than take the Mid-Hudson bridge, we would take the ferry across from Beacon to Newburgh when we were going to my grandparents' home in Pennsylvania and I'd stand at the gate and pretend to be in charge. Once the captain (?) invited me into the wheelhouse to "help him steer" - I was perhaps five years old at the time. Never did get into the engine room, however, much as I would have liked to.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What a small world. My wife is a Poughkeepsie native, too.
The Newburgh-Beacon Bridge (carrying I-84), when originally built, was ONE lane in each direction! The backups on I-84 during rush hours could rival those of the LIE (Long Island Expressway). The second twin span (4 lanes wide, including the shoulder) opened sometime in the early '80s (I think 1983).
There was talk of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge being opened up as a walkway, some said with a row of shops (I never could figure that one out). The "owner" bought it for $1 thinking he could make it into some kind of attraction but it never came to pass, and I think the ownership question has been in litigation for many years. I also think it is becoming an obstacle to ship navigation in its present condition, but since it's been around so long, I'm not sure how.
--Mark
Mark -
See the email I sent you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[What a small world. My wife is a Poughkeepsie native, too.]
My grandfather lived there & tought school in NYC, guess he took mass transit, but I never asked him :-( His father also tought & lived in NYC, Queens when there were still potato fields there.
Mr t__:^)
[There was talk of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge being opened up as a walkway, some said with a row of shops (I never could figure that one out). The "owner" bought it for $1 thinking he could make it into some kind of attraction but it never came to pass, and I think the ownership question has been in litigation for many years. I also think it is becoming an obstacle to ship navigation in its present condition, but since it's been around so long, I'm not sure how.]
There's a famous Renaissance-era bridge over the Arno River in Florence that's lined with shops, and is quite a tourist attraction. Maybe that's what the buyer was thinking of ... admittedly, Poughkeepsie is somewhat lacking in Tuscan charm and history :-)
I'm not quite sure I understand the part about the Poughkeepsie Bridge's becoming a navigation hazard. Presumably its clearance over river level hasn't changed, and at any rate I don't believe there's much regular shipping (as opposed to low-clearance barges) that far up the Hudson. If the problem is that pieces are falling off the bridge, one would think that there'd also be a danger to people on the roads - and rail line - along the riverbanks. Should that be the case, I fear that the bridge would have to be demolished.
There had been some problems with wooden debris - mainly ties etc. - falling from the bridge, but when the partial walkway was constructed a few years back the old ties were first removed from that portion of the structure. I do seem to recall that the ties have been removed from the Poughkeepsie approach as well, at a more recent time. Whether there are some additional problems now I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Karl: I believe that one of the reasons for the demise of the Day Line service was the elimination of the bus service from the docks up to the main area. Sometime about the late 1970's they stopped running the buses and this together with the use of the south dock gave people a very long climb uphill.It was a strong deterent to senoir and mothers with children.
Regards,Larry
Welcome back RedbirdR33! I have missed your posts. I was even going to send you an Email but I wasn't sure whether were a .net or a .com. Believe it or not I visited Bear Mtn at least a dozen times in my youth and never once got to ride one of the buses. We always walked up and walked down. I think my Mom called it "Shanks Mare" or something like that. I am getting yellow flashes on this screen, I better shut down. Talk more later, Karl B.
Karl: Good to hear from you.Its RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. I've been catergorizing my timetable collection which is why I've been off line for a while. I never got to ride the bus either. In those days $.25 was a bit of an expense for a family of five.According to a 1955 Day Line Schedule the round trip fare from NY to POK was $3.50 adult and $1.75 child. They also advertise"Knickerbocker" beer.
Best Wishes,Larry
Thanks for the oral history, guys. My dad and uncle took those cruises up the river a few times in the 30s. It was a big excursion, they'd have to go from Jamaica to their aunt's house in Bay Ridge the night before, and get up early, etc. A big deal for little kids from Jamaica in the 30s!
You've inspired me to keep pressing them for stories about growing up in the city.
Lots of things went under in the late 1970s, when the city and the whole Metro Area hit bottom. But some of those things could come back if the economy continues to flourish. Like (I hope) new subways.
No, I never went on the Dayliner, although I can still recite the TV commercial word for word. We considered going on it until my mother asked some friends about it, and found out the boat was dirty, kids were running amock on it, etc. I don't know how much of this was true, but it convinced us not to take the cruise.
And speaking of the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge, yes, the backups could get pretty long on each end. I remember when the twin span was being built when I left Connecticut in 1980; haven't been over the bridge since then. As I understand, the new span was three lanes wide, and when it opened, the original bridge was widened to three lanes as well.
Congress did, in fact, appropriate monies to repair the Bridge soon after the fire but Penn Central refused to make the necessary repairs and, as you related, Conrail then took over.
The line would have made an ideal route for stack trains today.
Carl M.
It would indeed have had a great deal of potential for stack trains; however, there were a large number of road crossings on both sides of the river that would have had to be raised (or the trackbed lowered) to accomodate stacks. As I recall, a plate F or larger car could not cross the bridge because of some country road overpasses on the Ulster County side of the river. Given the mileage savings, however, it would probably have been worth the expense. Sadly, I doubt we'll ever know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(We'll never know about using the bridge for double stacks.
You never know. NYC fought for competing rail carriers to serve the city when Conrail broke up, but all of New England was left with one carrier. And, the Berkshire tunnels block access for double stacks.
Both CSX and Norfolk Southern have tracks in the area. Maybe the one of them that doesn't have New England will want to run trains over th bridge, and onto Hartford, from which all of New England can be served by truck without dealing with the NY Metro Area or I-95.
Then again, the population of all of southern New England (MA, CT, RI) is about the same as that of Long Island if Brooklyn and Queens is included, and no one is rushing to build a rail link there.
[(We'll never know about using the bridge for double stacks.)
You never know. NYC fought for competing rail carriers to serve the city when Conrail broke up, but all of New England was left with one carrier. And, the Berkshire tunnels block access for double stacks.
Both CSX and Norfolk Southern have tracks in the area. Maybe the one of them that doesn't have New England will want to run trains over th bridge, and onto Hartford, from which all of New England can be served by truck without dealing with the NY Metro Area or I-95.]
Don't expect to see double stacks or anything else on the Poughkeepsie Bridge. As noted elsewhere, much of the right of way on the western side of the Hudson has been lost. And if there's one lesson that almost always holds true, it's that a right of way, once lost, is gone forever.
BTW - I believe that double stacks from Selkirk can operate through the Berkshires, as far east as Worcester. Massachusetts has proposed increasing clearances to allow them to operate into Boston, but as far as I know nothing's happened. I'm not sure if double stacks can operate south of Springfield into Connecticut.
Dan L, Thanks for the flyers. They arrived in the mail yesterday. We will be in touch before we attempt a trip to the museum.-----Karl B
I would like to know if there are plans to ever restore 6th Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service, if so, what line will it run along in Brooklyn & what year will it be restored. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
No. Most J/M/Z riders still go downtown, so pulling one of them isnt a great option. Adding a new service would require a lot of new cars that dont exist (and arent on order). Also, post 63rd st, this would mean 8 car trains going out to Queens Blvd, which might or might not work.
Do most JMZ riders go downtown? Alot do change at Essex, creating a dangerous situation on the platform. Many from the area take the L and pour on to the crossing lines to midtown. AND many people, such as my wife go to Bway-Nassau only to catch an uptown A. (I like to take the F, to W4th for the A or D, but she doesn't like changing that much, so she goes out of the way. Some, including a friend go to Canal or Chambers for the uptown IRT.
It's ridiculous not having direct midtown service. These are the only lines beside the G (which has no direct connection).
And on weekends, how many people go down to Wall St.? (This seems to justify not having the M come to Manhattan at all.) Alot do still change at Essex, or along 14th St.
Another idea I mentioned years ago was sending trains up 8th Av. if there is nowhere to send them on 6th Av.
I sure hope you all are still "reviewing and considering" this, like it says on the letter from you, Mr Wilsn and Mr Gawkowski I just got.
An extension of the L to midtown would make for direct service there. Why hasn't this been considered in recent years? Connecting the old NYC freight el that runs on the west side of 10th Avenue to the L train might help, if there are so many people changing to the lines that cross the L. The L should be a main line train in Manhattan. Maybe it can be combined with the 7 train (IRT size cars would be used and would continue on to Canarsie) for direct service to the Grand Central area and Times Square.
I had thought of the idea of connecting the L and 7, but in this case, I was talking about stuff they can do now without construction.
At the very least, punch out the deadhead tunnel wall and extend
the "L" train up 10th Avenue, with stations at 19th, 26th, 34th, then
turning east on 42nd to a station at Times Square, and the attendant connections. That's a long-range project.
Speaking of the "L" - what is happening with the station rehab at 14th Street-8th Avenue. It seems to have stopped dead in its tracks. I'd have thought I would see survey marks or laths or studs on the IND station walls by now...also what, if any, are the plans for the "L" station (aside from retiling some of the pillars and stairway backs)-
are they going to leave the IND tile or create a new "Canarsie Frieze" there (THAT would be very nice, indeed).
Wayne
(Most people go downtown). There are three jobs north of the Williamsburg Bridge for every one to the south. It would be a coincidence indeed if most people on the J/M/Z adjusted their job locations to their work to the extent that most people go downtown.
Perhaps when they add the second Queens Blvd/6th Avenue local service via 63rd St, they can run it out over the J/Z. Two third uptown, one third downtown, is about right.
But like Peter said, they don't want to send 8 car trains through the 63rd St connection. That would be a a waste. Unless your talking about weekends. We could use midotown service on weekdays, of course, but it's on weekends where alomost no one goes downtown, people do more recreation in midtown, and the M has nowhere tt go, so it is just reduced to a shuttle.
How about this? When 63rd St. opens, instead of creating a new V train, send the B through it and run it local to Forest Hills, keep the F where it is and bring back the K from 145th St./St. Nicholas (Concourse local during rush hours) and run it down 6th Ave. and then out across the Williamsbugh to Jamaica Center. You could eliminate the Z and use the J/K as skip stop service during rush hour between Jamaica and East New York.
Would be great except that CPW (which is a great match ridership/train length wise with the eastern division) connects with the 6Av express tracks only, and they go over the Manhattan Bridge--Williamsbg Bridge connects only with the local. Crossing trains over between the two on the slow switches at w4 or 34 would cost too much capacity.
Well, how about keeping the B as is and running the K through the 63rd St. tunnel to Continental -- I know that's not quite the "Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center" people were coming up with on the board a few months ago, but that way the K could stay local from B'way-Lafayette to 47th-50th, while the B stays express.
But that would just recreate the problem he mentioned, of sending the shorter trains to the busy Queens line. But if you send the K up 8th Av from W 4th (you make the 2 switches from Essex to Bway-Laf, then to W4th St upper level--all on the local track), then there would be no problem
OK, here's one for you - can't they modify the switches that lead to the Broadway-Lafayette==Essex Street connection (the "KK" connector) so that the 6th Ave Express tracks can feed into them. You shouldn't need that much new track unless the curtain walls are in the way.
NB: This is just a theory, doesn't take into acct. physics
Wayne
Northbound, you probably could do that, because the BJ track comes up in between the Exp and local tracks, and I believe there is space with no columns where a switch could easily be added. It's the OTHER direction where the problem lies. BJ1 branches off of the local track going left, so to get from the express, you would have to cross over the local track.
Northbound, you probably could do that, because the BJ track comes up in between the Exp and local tracks, and I believe there is space with no columns where a switch could easily be added. It's the OTHER direction where the problem lies. BJ1 branches off of the local track going to the RIGHT, so to get from the express, you would have to cross over the local track.
Oh, pooh - a grade crossing situation. That would mean a switch from exp to local BEFORE B'way-Lafayette. How far down the way does the outbound switchoff occur? Is there room for a one-way switch from exp to loc tracks before the switchoff?
Wayne
When did the switches from CPW only go to the 6th ave exp. tracks? Aren't they supposed to split between express and local just north of Rockefeller center? If that hasn't changed, it should be a relatively simple matter to run K trains from CPW to Bway-Bklyn.
No question that a lot of people do go uptown, and that Essex/Delancey is a mess. We are working to make sure that the rehab of this station improves the passenger flow there as much as possible.
This doesnt negate the fact that 1) there are train capacity issues on 6th Avenue, particularly on weekends due to the need to regularly reroute trains onto one track; 2) there would be huge costs to starting up a new service from scratch. These would be lessened or eliminated if one of the existing services were rerouted, but this would appear to more people than it helped.
Connecting the J/M/Z line into a new 2nd Ave. Line was proposed years ago and probably would be the best way to give J/M riders direct midtown access. According to that plan the Williamsburgh Bridge tracks would feed into the 2nd Ave. express and the Nassau St. Local tracks coming up from Broad St. would feed into the 2nd Ave. local. Of course I'll be a grandfather before this plan is ever built.
One way to ease congestion at Essex/Delancy is to build a direct connection between the Bowery staton and the Grand St. Station, giving people another way to access 6th Ave.
Heck, I AM a grandfather! And I do dream of seeing Second Avenue service sometime before I go to that great trolley barn in the sky.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since what has been posted concerning Second Avenue, don't count on it.
I would have loved to see the connection between Bowery and Grand, but they didn't want to do it. This would have also helped the Grand St entrance problem (they're just building another stairway instead), made Bowery safer with more people, and eliminated need for a shuttle to Bway-Laf when the Manhattan Bridge closes.
That's something that's bothered me. Where exactly was the bottleneck at Grand Street, the stairs to the streets or to the platform? I thought it would have helped the situation more to carve out a new set of stairs to the platform (opposite the current set) in addition to the current work.
The other night around 11PM I was waiting for a downtown N or R train in the 34th St. station. The station was relatively empty and very quiet. I noticed that every now and then I'd hear a sound that sounded like an elctric piano and then a very high pitched sort of white noise. I kept looking around for the source and finally I noticed this thing hanging in the center of the platform on the local track side. It looked like green A/C duct work with vents and several plastic things on the side. then I looked around and noticed that there was a board hanging directly across the platform near the express side that had reflectors on it. Each reflector was directly in line with the plastic things of the other object. I deduced that there must be some sort of sensor there for something or another and tryed stick my hand between the plastic thing and the reflector and sure enough I heard the tone again. I tried the same thing on each plastic thing (which must have been a lens) and each one produced a different tone (with different types of noise following it). I noticed that the same thing was present on the uptown platform too (and several kids over there saw/heard what I was doing and tryed the same thing). Now my question is this: Is it just public interactive art or does it serve some purpose (I was thinking maybe pest control with high-freq. sound)? Does anyone know?
Mike
It's a piece of art. It's fun to play with. You can play tunes if you're real good. there was a plaque explaining it somewhere down there. I personnaly think it's way cool. It's like a lot of the cool stuff in NYC - you have to 'discover' it. Sure beats that silly clock in Penn station (can anyone here even read that thing - I've never been able to....)
I've never seen this art at 34th, but it sounds a bit like the stuff they've got up in Boston at the M.I.T. Red Line stop. The students (I assume) created musical devices which hang between the tracks.
There are two rows of chimes, each controlled by a swinging lever with one lever on each platform. Swinging the lever will swing hammers into the chimes, and you can clang to your heart's delight. (You don't necessarily need to use the lever; a train rushing into the station will easily start the hammers up for you.)
There is also a solid iron ring with a hammer. People on either platform can pump the same hammer with a handle. Each pump brings it higher on a gear, until finally at its highest point the hammer releases and drops on the gong. (I think it was an F sharp, not sure though.)
I can't remember what the third device was, but it was nothing like what you saw at 34th.
The musical "art" referred to at the Kendall/MIT station of the Red Line in Boston was not designed by MIT students; rather, by an artist (I believe his name was Matisse, and related to the painter by the same name) under agreement with the MBTA. Much of the time, unfortunately, the cables operating the equipment are broken so the "art won't play."
David Pirmann, Thanks for posting my photographs of the oldest substation in operation on NYCT, Substation 21.
David: Thanks for contributing them! I'm sorry it took so long to get it going. For everyone who hasn't seen them, David sent in a set of photos of the IRT Substation #21 in Brooklyn: http://www.nycsubway.org/sub21/
Enjoy!
Dave
[David: Thanks for contributing them! I'm sorry it took so long to get it going. For everyone who hasn't seen them, David sent in a set of photos of the IRT Substation #21 in Brooklyn]
Isn't it this substation that's disguised as an ordinary residence, in order to keep its Brooklyn Heights neighbors happy?
Very nice addition to the site. Thanks to David Rosenthall for the foresight.
I remember Baltimore Transit's Broadway Substation on Harford Road north of Broadway. 3 rotary converters that fed the East side of the 13-North Avenue; the 15-Belair Road; the 19-Harford Road; the 17-Gorsuch Ave.; the 8-Greenmount Ave; the 21-Preston St. and the 27-Federal St. By 1963 only the 8 & 15 were still working, and it was wonderful to stand inside or pass by and hear that whine.
Thank you for the complement.
Wow. Those are cool pictures! Questions:
1 - This substation is in use, right? But it looks like the rotary converters are off in the pictures (unless you have very fast film). Why weren't they running while you were visiting?
2 - How much of NYCT is still run by rotary converters? Is there a move to convert to solid state equipment? (Gasp!)
It would be really cool if this old equipment could get a home in a museum or some such when its retired - it looks to be in beautiful shape. And its so old, there are probably no PCBs in it!
While I did not visit substation 21 I did visit the one across the street from the Prospect park Station on the D. That one was converted to solid state and the rotary converters were left in place. It was explained that the city has to convert because the NYS Power Authority will be charging more for the subway's special power needs(25 hz).
The use of 25 cycle for traction power via rotary converters and signaling needs to be brought to an end. Con Edison will eventually stop this practice of supplying 25 cycle to NYCT when all the rotaries are gone. I believe that at Substation #21, one rotary is placed on line today to supplement the load during the rush hours.
Of course 25 cycle is still used for signals on certain lines of the BMT today and electronic frequency converters are used to feed the AC signal mains.
There was a signal failure about 5 years ago mid-day which affected
most of the BMT and Contract-I IRT in Manhattan. ConEd had, at
the time, two 25 cycle generators. One had been down for maintenance,
and then the other failed. Service was out for hours. I was
lucky enough to have been in the 5 Ave BMT station, southbound, when
I heard brakes in emergency. The northbound train had just started
out when power failed and was tripped as an arm came up under the
train. I looked around and saw dark signals and walked over to
59 & LEX on the IRT. Announcements being made there about no
service. So I walked down to 51 St and continued my voyage on
the IND, which was unaffected.
The use of 25 cycle for traction power via rotary converters and signaling needs to be brought to an end. Con Edison will eventually stop this practice of supplying 25 cycle to NYCT when all the rotaries are gone. I believe that at Substation #21, one rotary is placed on line today to supplement the load during the rush hours.
When I visited Substation #21 in October of 1996, the rotary converters were off-line. They turned two of them on while I was there for the PM rush hour. One of them was the 1902 rotary numbered 8. I watched and video taped the startup and sychronizing of the rotaries and watched them being placed on line to feed the third rail sections. At the time I video taped everything.
You asked about the photography. I used Fuji 100 ASA film with a Vivitar 283 strobe to do all the photography. Photo sub21-05,jpg of the AC brush arms shows the the armature turning if you look closely.
I believe some of the rotaries will remain after the solid state rectifiers are placed on-line.
To all Metrocard Mavens: Does anyone know how the lockout on the unlimited cards works,exactly? For instance, I find that no matter at what time I use the card, the reader will clear it at either :12, :30, 48:,or :06 past the hour. That is to say, in as few as 12 min., or as much as 18 min. How does this work? On what does this depend. Please respond. My curiosity is overwhelming. Thanks.
The card stores the past two transactions & is SUPPOSE to lockout reuse for 18 minutes on all "time" based cards. The TA said they were going to modify this so that the restriction/lockout only effected the customer within the same station/bus.
"Value" cards will tollerate four fares at once & permit four transfers.
The s/n on the card can be "negitive listed" so that it will reject once all the depots/stations get a download of the revised list.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or NYC-DOT
Mr t__:^)
Was just wondering...does anyone know what the current NYCTA Operations and Planning plan is for service for when the 63rd St. tunnel finally opens?
I think this is a FAQ that has no answer yet.
Read down the list for various comments and opinions.
-Dave
In response to the DN's article last month about freezing subway cars, Phantom Rider and Jack Leary, SEPTA's GM, took a ride.
Leary promised that all 125 K cars would be repaired to provide passengers with more heat.
You can follow through to the Daily News link at phillynews.com.
A mechanic found out that he could adjust the voltage in the heater.
This raised the temp in the car from 59 degrees to 65 . Jack Leary thought all new heating systems had to retrofitted on each BSS car, at a very large cost! The mechanic used a screwdriver and fixed the problem in 10 minutes!
Chuck Greene
Well, sure, now that summer is coming, they've GOT to make sure the heat works.
-Hank :)
I was reading through an issueof "National Geographic" from 1992 about Boston.
In it, they mentioned America's oldest subway and the MBTA.
Now they said it stands for "Metropolitan Boston Transportation Authority". But I have a map that says "Massachussetts Bay Transportation Authority".
What's up?
It's Massachusetts Bay Transporation Authority. Click there to see their Web site.
I thought they got it wrong. Thanks.
Here in Boston at lunchtime today, I had to walk from Downtown Crossing (Macy's) back to my office on Beacon Street. Being an extremely cold, windy day [you knew I'd get a weather mention in here], I decided to use the "Winter Street Concourse" over to the Park Street station, then through that station to the exit closest to my destination. That made about half the walk underground, though through fare-controlled area (I used my monthly unlimited pass). While walking through the concourse, I thought back to our thread of last week, suggesting that NYCT consider reopening the Herald Square to 7th Avenue corridor (and others) by restricting their use at night, and having them within fare control. The idea being these two restrictions would keep the unwanted population down, and give NYCT an opportunity to clean them.
I looked carefully at the corridor while walking through it today, and noted that it was very clean, well lit, and well used. I think SubTalkers have a good idea here that should be seriously considered by NYCT as a very useful transit improvement that would cost a lot less than building a yard of the Second Avenue Subway!
I'm a big fan of what I saw in Montreal. Unfortunately, to open up passegeways effectively you'd have to have police, transit, and perhaps other agencies involved. The idea therefore runs afoul of the more than one agency rule. If something involves more than one agency, it can't be accomplished unless its the Mayor's idea and he threatens to fire anyone who gets in the way, or a private party's idea who gives lots and lots of money to lots and lots of politicos.
If they were a bit more progressive, perhaps the Real Estate Board and the RPA could come up with something. Property owners could fund the passageways, and collect rent on the retail underground.
Here's another funding idea for SubTerrainian Passageways:
Many subway cars now have "single advertizers," where the one organization takes every available position.
How about commercial sponsors for the passageways? One can imagine Reebok supporting a passageway, with "Wear our sneakers to speed your commute...", or Wheeties with "The breakfast of champion commuters," or (hehehehe) Lysol, with "Buy some, spray here!"
Hey, if a football stadium can do it, why not a corridor?
Why not have those instead of desecrating an R-32 with a full car-banner ad for "Zoe, Duncan, Jack and Jane".
NYC is the only subway system that I've seen(Philly, NYC, Baltimore, DC)
with full ad strips along the top of the interior for just one product. there were cars for SubTalks(not ours-the MTA kind), the afforementioned TV show, and for the School of Visual Art I believe on the #6.
How long has that been in practice?
And don't forget the ever-present "Dr. Zit". He has half the ad space on the IRT for his plastic surgery blurbs.
And don't forget the ever-present "Dr. Zit". He has half the ad space on the IRT for his plastic surgery blurbs. LOL.
We have whole cars here in Philly advertising Tide w/ Bleach on both the BSS and the MFL. They're very disturbing, IMHO. On old MFL cars with ad strips along the top, they all say things like "Doesn't it feel great to be covered in germs?" and "The seat you're sitting on is probably giving you a disease." Those aren't exact quotes, but that's the rough idea.
The first time I saw them, I thought some sicko millionare had paid for them - there is no product name or logo anywhere near the ads. I thought some weirdo was trying to create paranoia or something. Then as I was leaving the train, I saw the lone matching ad on the wall at the very end of the car with the Tide logo...
The ones that make me squirm are the Captain Morgan ones that say "Get Spicey"...I don't drink ANYTHING so seeing that I just have to look the other way. And it's Dr. ZIZMOR...him I don't mind. The ones with the poems (I Am Rose My Eyes Are Blue...) are nice too.
Wayne
I think that 'Poetry in Motion' placards are the absolut (pun intended) best thing to hit the subway. As for the liquor, I don't make my drink choices upon ads, I mooch off my freinds :)
-Hank
And let's not forget the ongoing saga of Julio and Marisol. Admittedly, it's sort of bogged down lately; the last few episodes have been rather dull, but I'm holding out hope that it'll get interesting again.
And then there's Decision XI - you should see the surprised look on the face of the one guy at the mention of "Esteban".
Wayne
I'm waiting to see what happens next. I can't believe that little series has been going since I was in High School...
-Hank
It seems like the last few installments in Julio & Marisol have been slow in coming. I'd hate to see the series just stop without a true resolution.
For those who can't get enough, a picture of the lovely Marisol is available at:
http://nycdoitt.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/doh/html/public/press/pr27-997.html
Sorry, I don't have the tech ability to put the picture directly onto Subtalk.
What I like are the places SEPTA workers put some ads.
Have you seen the one for the Yellow Pages that says "That wasn't the subway rumbling-it was your stomach".
I saw this on the R7 and the 21, 2 and 23 buses-but never the subway or the el!
And what about those buses that are ENTIRELY covered on the exterior with a thin plastic ad forSprite or the Atlantic 10?
Expect to see Coke ads coming to a third rail near you:)
It's all about money and doesn't hurt the bus/car. Hay, if it keeps the fare down I can live with. Maybe they'll even put a little of it aside for some raises :-)
Mr t__:^)
Apple Computer has some MBTA buses covered with a cluster of the new multicolor iMACs, and their "Think Different" motto. Streetcars have been done too but no subway cars yet! We refer to it as shrink-wrap in Boston. Covers everything - including the windows (Windshield excepted). You can still see out.
Now an eight car R-46 train with a message running the full length of the train - that would be impressive. Especially driving underneath an island platform el station while the 600 foot ad is stopped above. It would work with any 75 foot car, or an R-40M or R-42. Slants would have too many large gaps, while the fluted sides on an R-32 or R-38 would be difficult to work with.
The very first one was Fruitopia. So whenever that had first come out. Early to mid-90's
I remember back in the mid-70s when I took the BUS to High School. For several months, the interiors of entire buses would be covered in ads for Greenwood Red Cabbage and the different ways it could be applied to your favorite foods. I would see this at 7:30 a.m. Yum, yum!
Greenwood (111th Street) red cabbage! That stuff goes great with my homemade Sauerbraten. Seriously, some of these ads (esp. the ones with the darker backgrounds) have a way of dimming the interior light on some cars, especially noticeable on the R38 cars, to a lesser extent on the 44/46/62/68s. Do they still run the ones with the zebra-striped Slant R40s? Haven't seen one of those in a while.
Wayne
That was Modell's. Maybe their contract ran out. There's a new one for KISS-FM, showing the old and new performers they play. Kind of like the one for CD-101, which also isn't around anymore
I'm 99% sure that the 'Zebra Stripe' ads were for Footlocker.
-Hank
I was thinking that, but wasn't sure. I get those two mixed up.
(If a stadium can do it, why not a passageway).
Surely you're not suggesting having the conductors announce "This ride on the Chase Line (under 2nd Avenue) is brought to you by Chase. Invest with us, and it ten years you'll be up there in a cab."
It would only work if the traffic reporters agreed to say "The Chase Line is on schedule again today" rather than just reporting the delays.
Last week I mentioned adding moving sidewalks to many of these dormant passageways. I travel through San Francisco International on United Shuttle many times a month and one of the nice features of the North Terminal at SFO is the San Francisco Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame, which has its various monuments located throughout the terminal. Also the main aracde linking the "F" concourse and the curbside area features rotating modern art and technology exhibits along the main corridor which is flanked by moving walkways. Coupled with a coroporate sponsor, various exhibits which may otherwise be "homeless" could be a nice addition to New York's underground. Currently at SFO, the BASHOF (Sports Hall of Fame) is a Hall without a Hall, United pays for the upkeep of the exhibits which are also loaned to schools and other sports venues throughout the Bay Area. Kids love exhibits and I have often been asked by inbound passengers to SFO what is on display during a given month.
It's worth a try
How about the Grand Central Partnership BID and the Herald Square BID taking this on as a project to enhance both their areas? These BIDs, along with the Times Square BID, have made fantastic improvements above ground, what with hiring security, cleaners, publicity, special street lighting, etc.
Small shops could be along the corridor, providing activity and therefore a feeling of security. Business people who can't afford the rental rates in the new Grand Central marketplace might be inclined to operate in the passageway. The trick is to have "normal" activities going on in an area to encourage people to frequent those areas. Close the passage overnight and enforce a policy of no loitering, simular to that at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, to keep out the skells.
One of my little peeves is to see a long section of subway without a station for a legitamite reason(to me).
Case in point, the Northern Blvd. arm of what becomes the Queens Blvd.line.
Why is there no station at this particular span( say at 24 Ave) when it seems possible to put one there(i.e. headways, station use, proximity)
It sounds like you're referring to the stretch between 36th Street and 65th Street stations. Between these two stations the express tracks (E & F) actually take a more direct route (over the third leg of a triangle, if you will) than the local tracks. Going towards Jackson Hghts the express tracks continue along Northern Blvd. after the 36th Street station, then they turn right at Broadway at which point it re-joins the local tracks a bit west of the 65th Street station.
Wayne
And this sounds like a pretty long distance(29 blocks, though if my Queens geography is anything, that probably adds up to about a midtown disatance of 180 feet:))
Could there ever have been a station along this stretch? Seems like a waste unless it's for reasons of time(I don't use the line, so I wouldn't know).
It is an express run. The stations are on the local track under Broadway, one to four blocks away.
The legimate reason is that the particular section of track you refer to was built solely as an express track. The local tracks were built with a more indirect routing and 3 stations. Since the actual seperation between express and local tracks is a matter of blocks, what benifit would a redundent station serve other than to slow the railroad down.
If you did put a station there, people using some of the local stops would probably abandon those and go try and catch the E or F. Considering how packed they are at rush hour already, I don't think the MTA would even think about adding another station to the line.
I wanted to know if this has happened to anyone else.
When I was in town last week I rode the shuttle into Times Square.
I exited from the door closest to the front on the first car and I had to step over the gap!
I missed the filler by a half a foot.
Isn't it supposed to be right at the door?
[When I was in town last week I rode the shuttle into Times Square.
I exited from the door closest to the front on the first car and I had to step over the gap!
I missed the filler by a half a foot.
Isn't it supposed to be right at the door?]
No, the gap fillers at the Times Square Shuttle station aren't right at platform level, as they are at Union Square on the IRT. As you noted, they are several inches lower. I presume that someone who fails to mind the gap will be protected from serious injury but not from a sprained ankle.
BTW - at the Flatbush Avenue LIRR terminal, particularly on Track One, there are gaps nearly a foot wide with *no* gap fillers at all. A child or small adult could fall right through to track level.
Just thinking that with the upcoming total overhaul of the Times Square and Grand Central subway stations, the shuttle may vgery well need be made ADA-Compliant. This, of course, will require some serious work on the TSQ end to eliminate the gaps entirely.
-Hank
Probably the easiest thing to do would be to extend the shuttle platforms eastward so as to eliminate the need for the curved segment, assuming it's feasible. As I recall, this sort of thing was done at Brooklyn Bridge and DeKalb Ave.
Looking thorugh, the London subway seems to have struck me. Can anyone give me some technical information(platform/car lengths) and all the stuff about the fourth rail.
Platform/Car lengths for London Underground stock:
Tube stock(prior to 1973) 52 ft approx per car
Tube stock 1973 53 ft approx
Surface Stock 53 ft approx
Surface "D" stock 60 ft approx
Normal train formation is:
Bakerloo Line 7 car (4 car + 3 CAR)
Northern Line 7 car (as above) or 6 car (2 x 3 car NEW 1995 stock)
Jubilee Line 6 car ( 2 x 3 car)
Piccadilly Line 6 car (2 x 3 car)
Metropolitan Line 8 car(2 x 4 car)
District Line 6 car ( 2 x 3 car)
Circle, Hammersmith & City Lines 6 car ( 3 x 2 car)
Central line 6 car ( 3 x 2 car)
Victoria Line 8 car (2 x 4 car)
Waterloo 7 city line 4 car ( 2 x 2 car)
.
Odd ones out are:
East London Line 4 car (1 x 4 car)
Chesham-Chalfont shuttle.Metropolitan Line 4 car (1 x 4 car)
.
Traction supply is 630 Volts DC
and is supplied at 420 volts to possitive 3rd rail & 210 volts to 4th rail (negative) which runs centrally inside the two running rails.
Hope this helps !!!!!
Regards
Rob :^)
Why was the fourth rail system employed? Is there any advantage to it?
It was applied on Board of Trade requirements to avoid leakage of return current interfering with other electrical systems near the tube line. This was, I understand, on the 'Twopenny tube', now the Central Line, opened in 1900.
Maybe this was due to London being located on basically a clay sub-structure other than rock, as is NY, etc.
Has anybody seen this method used in any other transit systems? I have not.
The book I have states the four rail system was firstused on the Metropolitan. I will seek further reference from the LT Museuem and advise accordingly.
Jack, the information I have is that the outer rail carries 650 volt positive and the inner rail is the return. This system was employed by the Metropolitan in response to legislation about corrosion in adjacent pipes and structures due to earth leakage if the return was run through the running rails. It was adopted by the rest of Londons underground railways. The main advantage is that you can still have conventionl track circuit signalling. The IRT ran into problems as is mentioned in the book detailing its contruction.
Hi. I am a writer who is writng a novel that takes place in the NYC Subway. In the story one of the subway cars must be seperated from the others. Is this plausible? How is it done if it is?
I also have many other questions if anyone is intimate with the ways subway cars and conductors operate.
Please. I need your help.
Thnaks
--edward
At the north end of the southbound platform at the fourth ave station
on the culver line there are two pieces of what looks like running
rails embedded into the end of the platform. What are or were they
used for? Were they original?.
can anyone tell me about the fourth ave platform? werer are the experts?
Well, it happened again. A fifth slashing on the subways. This time it was not your garden variety street thugs. This time it was not a random act of insanity. This time it was 3 Good Kids from one of NY's performing Arts high Schools who decided to take a feud into the subways. Art imitating life? One thing is for sure. The Mayor and Police Commissioner must now act decisively and greatly increase uniformed police presence on trains to stem the copy-cat mentality that's sweeping the city.
[Well, it happened again. A fifth slashing on the subways. This time it was not your garden variety street thugs. This time it was not a random act of insanity. This time it was 3 Good Kids from one of NY's performing Arts high Schools who decided to take a feud into the subways.]
Good kids? I suspect not. Skells of the future is more like it.
My father-in-law says kids were just as rotten in Brooklyn 50 years ago, but they didn't have guns, so you just got beat up. They took away the guns, so you have razors. If we can take away the razors, we can beat it back to fists. I think that's about all you can do.
I saw a couple of teen-aged girls pounding each other, with a crowd cheering them on, just the other day. They both walked away. That's about as big a victory in the war on crime as we're likely to get.
BTW, when my kids are older, I intend to encourage them NOT to ride the subway or bus from 3:00 to 4:00 p.m. They should head to library and do their homework, then head home with the adults.
The slashing incidents sound like the "broken window" theory the former police chief, Ray Kelley, touted in his book on the drop in N.Y.C. crime -- the little things like broken windows, or little crimes breed bigger crimes if nothing is done about them. I know Rudy axed Kelley because he wanted to take full credit for the drop in crime, but if he really wants to run for Senate, he better jump on this quickly, or there will be a lot of stories in the near future about the city's crime rate going back up.
(Broken window effect.) I think sometimes you just get the media on these things. It's a big city, and a big metro area, so something bad happens every day. Now they've decided slashings are a story, so for a few weeks everything that seems like a slashing ("In yet another incident, man cuts himself shaving") will get big play.
Meanwhile, somewhere in the suburbs, some woman is being carjacked, and it is being ignored. Until one particular incident gets play, then it will be "5th Mall Carjacking and counting."
Then there was the syringe-in-a-Diet-Pepsi copycat story, which turned out to be planted. It sounds like an example of a story being blown out of proportion.
[The slashing incidents sound like the "broken window" theory the former police chief, Ray Kelley, touted in his book on the drop in N.Y.C. crime -- the little things like broken windows, or little crimes breed bigger crimes if nothing is done about them. I know Rudy axed Kelley because he wanted to take full credit for the drop in crime, but if he really wants to run for Senate, he better jump on this quickly, or there will be a lot of stories in the near future about the city's crime rate going back up]
I agree with you. It cannot be assumed that the recent drop in crime necessarily will be permanent. We have not seen a whole generation of criminals eliminated, nothing like that. My fear is that just a little complacency will lead to crime rates increasing once again.
It's too early to tell if the crime rate reduction is permanent. It will depend solely on whoever the next mayor is, and on whoever he/she appoints as police commisioner.
(Too early to tell if the crime reduction is permanent). I think you have to credit three things:
1) Many of the crimes were committed by a few people, who are now off the street. Many killed each other. I think the reason the period after WWII was so peaceful is that all the wild and violent guys charged ahead and were shot down. The 1985 to 1995 decade was the equivalent of a war.
2) There were so many crimes it was like a riot -- you couldn't catch and jail everyone, so people felt free to do things they otherwise would not. Crimes like auto theft were de-criminalized.
3) Values have changed in poor communities. People saw how the crack and violence wave affected them, and have changed.
Finally, I don't know that Mayoral policies will make much of a difference. Certain expectations have been established. What is more likely it that more and more jail time will be put in place for minor offenses, to keep the prisons filled and the guards employed. Anyone for getting tough on white collar criminals, with manditory hard time?
Do you really think that it's just that simple? Crime is more than a social issue. It has also become a huge political issue. There are certain neo-political/religeos groups that are seeking to dismantle the NYPD or at least make it impotent. Just remember what crime in the subways was like before the current mayor took office. What will happen to the crime rate in the near future is up to all the people of good will in this city. The nay-sayers who equate the drop in crime with the establishment of a police state must be publicly rebuked - and loudly.
According to:
The Phillidelphia Inquierer, New Jersey Transit is joining the double decker crowd. They are proposing to get 200 of them, along with 40 (!) new locos, and 200 single level cars...This to ease crowding into Penn Station. The plan will be presented this Wedsday. Apparently, they feel such cars can fit into Penn (though how sucessfully remains to be seen). I'm assuming that the 40 new locos would be either electric, or diesel, or a split. Oh yeah, and they want another 17 locos after that. I'd like to know the breakdown, though if it's mostly electric (as I'd suspect - didn't they just replace all their diesels?), this would put them ahead of Amtrak in terms of electric ownership I think. Anyway - there's one thing for certain - the Arrow cars are going to be an endangered specis if this plan happens. Also, I wonder if any dual modes are in there, or any plans to extend NJT's electric lines - aren't they tieing the Hoboken division into Penn station? Also, that line '12,000 new riders expected to come on board as NJ Transit expands service during the next five years.' Sounds interesting. Anyone care to guess?
(Big transit plans for NJ). Sounds like New Jersey has figured out where its economic vitality comes from, and how to suck out more of it, leaving the city with less. How about the East Side of the River?
> (as I'd suspect - didn't they just replace all their diesels?)
NJ Transit hasn't bought a new diesel locomotive. Ever, that I can think of. I'm pretty sure all the existing ones are inherited from the predecessor railroads, purchased during the Conrail era, or purchased used since then. I think the breakdown was mostly electric for the Montclair & Morris-Essex Midtown Direct Service, and also to replace the remaining Arrow-class MU's on the Northeast Corridor. The diesels would end up serving the Raritan and ex-Erie Hoboken division services. I don't see them expanding electrification although it would allow them to have a unified fleet of Comet coaches and ALP-44 locomotives in the long run.
NJ Transit bought new F40s, similiar to Amtrak's, around 1981. These are often on the Raritan Valley line.
The only expansion of electrification I know of is from the future Montclair connection to Great Notch on the Boonton Line. Otherwise, the Hoboken Division is not going to be tied into Penn Station until (if ever) the capacity under the Hudson is increased. Hoboken Division passengers will be able to transfer to the Northeast Corridor at a new Secaucus station by 2002.
I have another question on this topic:Does NJT know for sure that double-deckers will clear all the overpasses?
When we ran the story on WCBS Newsradio-88 last Saturday, we quoted NJT as saying that the double-deckers would have to be custom designed just for that reason - to clear overpasses and tunnels on their system. It seems that no existing double-decker design will work!
Amtrak already runs some double decker sleepers and they use the Northeast corridor- wouldn't these work because people need headroom to get into a sleeper berth?
Amtrak's double-decker cars (the Superliners) run only to Washington, DC, although they successfully ran one from the west into Philadelphia once. They don't ever run on the Boston-NY-DC Northeast Corridor for clearance reasons.
Amtrak does run single-level Viewliner sleepers, which have upper and lower berths in the rooms, but these have the same profile as normal single-level coaches.
Speaking of NJ transit news..just exactly WHEN is the light rail connector start its first leg? And what is going to be the first leg opened??
The first segment of new light rail will open around March, 2000. This will run from Exchange Place in Jersey City to 34th Street in Bayonne, with a branch through Jersey City to West Side Avenue. In the following year the line should be open north to the Newport Center Mall and Hoboken Terminal.
Hi!
There's no question in my mind that the best place to ride as a passenger as a kid (and I confess at times as an adult) is to position yourself at the front car door , the handle side, by the motorman's cab and have a bird's eye view of the action.
The slant R-40's are great because of the long narrow windows, so even the shortest of kids could look out. I remember on the R-32's little kids would have to be held up by their parent to look out.
The other bonus is when the motorman would keep his door ajar about 5 inches with those door vices. Oh, to peer in and watch the action, did he get the indication light, calling command center on the radio, and did he sit or stand? Always liked a motorman who liked to stand. Hey, I had to stand to look out, so why not him too.
Some fun memories I have of this great location on the train are:
At the BMT Canal Street Manhattan Bridge level (the one that looks like it could be the set for A Short Walk To Daylight now), I was by the front window and the motorman overshot the line designation box for the signal tower. So he asked me to go out and push it for him.
It is so eerie to see that station now, if you've been there you know it looks like the aftermath to an earthquake. Plus try walking it at night to go from the 6 train to the BMT......it's deserted and creepy.
Another memory I have is a track fire along the on the West End. The dried out wood had caught fire in the summer on the express track in the middle and the motorman is trying to explain this to command center who mistakenly thought the motorman's train was on fire and told him to discharge at the next station.
Then of course the best were the really nice motorman who occasionally would open the door the whole way and let you "hang" right by the action. One let me hold down the throttle (with his help of course) just to see what it was like.
But most of the time as a younger kid, the handle on the front door of the R-32, 40 or 42 was my "pretend" throttle. Never forget the shock of going to the front car door, standing there, pulling on the handle to pretend to make the train go and
wahhh laaaah! The door wasn't locked and it just opened as the train was moving. So to quote the Apollo 13 line "Houston, we've got a problem", I knocked on the motorman's door and alerted him that the door wasn't locked.
Next station he comes out to lock it and I had my safety insured to pretend to drive the train.
The other annoyance was running up to the front car window to find an intruder had already staked claimed to your favorite spot and you had to look from the right side of the window. Once that other kid got off the train, that spot was quickly claimed by you.
Looking back on it now, as a kid, riding the front car window was probably one of those wonderful childhood experiences that you knew was special then and brings a smile to your face 10, 20 or 30 years later.
I see my kids play with Nintendos, computer software games and the like but if I had to choose as a kid, I'd much rather watch as the West End navigated that great switch track coming into 36th Street/4th Avenue Manhattan Bound....were you going up the local track or the express? You'd wait for the signal to change for your answer.
As far as I'm concerned, Super Mario Brothers was probably a pizzeria I never ate at and computers were those giant things you'd see in the Batcave on TV.
I don't live in NY anymore, but know that I need to get my son up there to experience the real video game of "helping" drive the train.
Always keep the wonderful memories and throw out the crummy ones.......
HK
When I was in NYC a week ago, I got an 'N' of Slant 40's out of Times Square to Cortlandt.
As soon as I saw the train, I ran as far as I could down the platform to the front(about 3 cars) and had to pass between the cars the rest of the way(boy, am I a sorry something or what?).
I did it A): to get good front-end photos(which I'll send in when I get them developed) and B): for a wonderful view shooting down Broadway. I did the same thing coming and going on the Queensbridge shuttle(R-32's).
My son said he felt like the only adult there.
Here in Philly, you can still do the same thing( if you get an M-3, you can put down the window and feel the breeze-but not for much longer, thanks to the M-4's).
When's the best time to catch an M3? I keep getting stuck with M4s. :(
Try the time just after rush hour(6pm and up).
Those are the only times I get'em. It's like going for the R-110B. Only the lucky get to see it.
Few things in the New York City subway compare to the view from the elongated railfan window of a Slant R40. It's also a treat for younger children who can watch from the front (along with their parents) if they're too short to see out of an R32, R38, or other car with similar windows.
We have one or two cars left with dropdown front windows - R26 cars with transplanted R22 storm doors. I think they're #7773 and #7821.
Wayne
The front window of the slant 40 is *by far* the best things about those cars - you get a view. Even if you're a big boy like me, it's nice because just have a nice big window to watch out of - I wish the LIRR and Metro-North MUs had windows that big :)
The (septa) M-3 window is a blast - litterally. Last time I was there with a friend, we rode the line up and down a few times just for the fun of it. You get not only a useful breeze, but you can wave to passing trains. It'll surely be missed.
My feelings exactly. My favorite memory is looking through the storm door window of the first car of an A train of R-10s on the express jaunt up Central Park West. Nothing but flat out speed. Coming in at a close second would be the same jaunt on a D train of R-1/9s (or any train of R-1/9s, for that matter) whose first car had no headlights. It seemed a bit eerie to not be able to see the track, with the only illumination provided by the tunnel lights. The I-beams between the tracks were reduced to nothing more than silhouettes. Throw in the traction motors singing out a resounding F# above middle C, and you'd have an unbeatable combination.
The R-32s always made any express run seem effortless, and still do today. I equate the R-32s with an express run along Broadway in Manhattan. They would streak past 23rd and 28th Sts. Even to this day, I still give the storm door handle a tug or two as the train is about to start moving, and got the same surprise you did once - whooops!. My sister was with me, and she gave me one of those dirty looks.
I remember encountering one or two BMT standards which had 2x4s jammed against the storm door handles to prevent them from opening.
Amtrak is holding a press conference at 1:00 pm today to disclose details about the new trainsets/service that will begin appearing on the northeast corridor in October. The AP story, as reported on WCBS Newsradio 88, calls it a "bullet train" with a secret name to be unveiled. (Prior publicity by Amtrak called it the "American Flyer; will they change that?)
Current New York Penn to Boston South Station service, which takes approximately five hours, will be reduced to three hours; NYP to WAS service will be reduced from about three hours to two-and-a-half. This will not be an inexpensive ride; fares on the high-speed train are reported to be more than $100 each way for NYP-BOS or WAS. This compares with $200 each way full fare for the air shuttles. Clearly, Amtrak is targeting the business crowd, by touting "business class seats," power ports, meal service, etc.
"American Flyer" was the name used by the builders to market the train to Amtrak, it was never intended to be the actual service name of the trains when running.
Considering the shuttle-like (i.e. HIGH) fares on the current Metroliners, and their relative success (more passengers than either air shuttle, I think), the new service should do well. And an all-electric Boston-NY-DC corridor should speed up the ride for all trains, even if they're not of the premium, tilting, business class variety. I'll miss standing on the platforms at New Haven watching them switch engines, but I won't miss the slower-than-a-bus ride from BOS to NYP.
They'll still have to do some engine changes at New Haven for the inland route to Springfield.
-Hank
Don't expect the "Fancy Name" trains anytime soon(saw it on the local evening news (WJZ in Baltimore announcing the new service). However, the local railroad rumor mill here is abuzz with the news that the first locomotive blew the electronics during testing in Colorado. The rumor is that it blew during voltage/frequency change tests. Supposedly, Bombardier doesn't know why, or how to fix it. The new equipment has to work on 11,000-12,500 25hz AC, as well as 25 KV 60hz New Haven to Boston, and make the changes on the fly.
Also, major wire changes have to be made on the PRR/NH sections, as EVERY bridge between New Haven and Washington Terminal has to have the wire profile reshaped for the higher speeds required to make the proposed schedules. With the current wire profiles, top allowable speed remains 125 MPH.
We await developments
At the press conference yesterday, it was announced by AMTRAK that the name for the new train will be "Acela" (pronounced us-SELL-uh). They said it was a word made up by a marketing firm to indicate swiftness. Whatchathink?
Well, if we can get used to AMTRAcK and FLeXIBLE, guess we can get used to ACELA, the name realy excels ... yuck :-(
Is there some reason they can't just call it "The Bullet"? Weren't the original Metroliners capable of doing the same 150 mph as the whatsis train? I had thought the problem had always been the track and catenary.(Or has my memory failed me?)
The origional Metroliners *were* capeable of 150. They were also amazingly unreliable, and quite a disaster. There were a few rebuilds of them, a number of different Pantagraph styles, they sprouted M-2 type roof bumps at some point, they ran under traction motor induced speed restrictions, one train seperated in two at speed.....
Yeah, they probably had catenary problems too....
But none went to the insurance capital of the world, just RDC Budds.
What goes there these days (one or two car train) ?
Mr t__:^)
I thought the speed limit NYP to WAS was at a max 125mph and that was only on two small portions of the route. North of NYP I thought the max was 79mph. I know they were elminiating some grade crossings but had to leave one or two draw bridges.
150MPH off an open draw bridge??
MAS (maximum allowable speed) varies through the line, based upon many factors (such as bridges, crossings, stations, curves, etc.).
[ North of NYP I thought the max was 79mph. I know they were
elminiating some grade crossings but had to leave one or two draw bridges.]
They were also "easing" a number of curves to bring the speed up, this is in addition to the tilting within the train set. I haven't read anything about what they are doing about swing/draw bridges (I can't put my hands on the article that said how many there are). Todd or someone else will probally confirm that they can bring the speed up once the cross the CT river, maybe after NH ... I thinking about the Providence to Boston portion.
Mr t__:^)
- I cannot quote numbers but I believe that the current Metroliners go 125 mph for a significant portion of the NY - DC journey. That is a pretty modern piece of RR.
- I have read on usenet that the MAS south of NY will remain 125 mph for a "while." Apparently the caternary is not of sufficient quality for 150 mph trains to maintain good contact down there. To get to this level of quality, they will apparently have to rebuild the caternary as "constant tension caternary," which uses weights and pulleys to tension the caternary instead of attaching it to heavily built hangars. All modern caternary is built this way, it is cheaper to build & maintain & better. But it is not on the plate right now to do it...Keep in mind that going from MAS 125 -> MAS 150 does not save hugh amounts of time. The new trains will still be faster, with faster acceleration (i'm guessing) and faster speed around some of the turns.
Keep in mind that I read that on the usenet, generally not the place to get information if it has to be right!
- as for the rumours about the train failing on power switches:
- have not heard this anywhere else, which is suspicious since this would be true rumour mill grist and there are a legion of folks out there that LOVE to report Amtrak failures.
- Even if true, hey, thats why you do tests. Could be a problem which is quickly fixable.
- There is an amtrak engineer who periodically posts on the usenet, asserting that Boston to NY will NEVER be three hours because Metro North will not let them run in tilt mode on the Metro North controlled tracks (territory between NYC and the NY/Conn border). Once again, I am skeptical about this naysayer....However, it seems that the NH - NY section will remain a tough section for a while. Its very curvy, it has ancient caternary, a lack of capacity, too many junctions without flyovers, and so on.
Really the main advantage of the new service will be Bos - NH, with NH - NY secondary and the advantages between NY - DC will mainly be the train's amenities. Hopefully the attention will also help get new ridership NY - DC. Hopefully 150 mph will not be too far off south of NY.
Regarding the name - well, I don't really like it, but I am glad Amtrak is not marketing this service to me or any of us railfans. We would ride it if they called it the vomit shuttle, or the new jersey crawler. A name which invokes a 40 year old toy train is not a good plan for this service - I would not call a start up air line the biplane express. Further, if amtrak is to be faulted for coming up with a goofy name, I guess they are running their railroad like a businesss, cause the private sector does this all the time. CSX? Chevy Caprice? These companies are making plenty of $$$ despite the goofy name. Meanwhile Amtrak is making lots of good press (there was a story in the Denver Post about it!!!).
Sorry for the horrendously long post.
I had a cab ride (*grin*) in the ABB-manufactured X-2000 demonstrator train from NYP to WAS many years ago; we were able to do 135 mph for brief stretches only under special, limited exemption from the normal maximum allowable speed of 125 mph.
[At the press conference yesterday, it was announced by AMTRAK that the name for the new train will be "Acela" (pronounced us-SELL-uh). They said it was a word made up by a marketing firm to indicate swiftness. Whatchathink?]
Sounds like a disease ...
Here's a link to the AMTRAK Acela press release.
I think Metroliner II would be better, given the wonderful start these things have already gotten ;)
But seriously, that's got to be the stupidest name in the world. i don't even want to know how much they paid that marketing firm to think it up. At least it beats 'American Flyer', which is not only corny sounding, it sugests images of a)flying (the competition) and b)a certain failed toy train company of the same name. And it beats 'American TGV', or 'American Bullet Train' by a longshot.
Anyone here got an idea for a name for these things? I bet we could come up with a few good ones....
Trendy marketing name of not, don't hold your breath. See my prior post on the reports from the Baltimore rail rumor mill. The supposed source for the rumor is a high-up in ATK engineering. I suspect that one or more of the industry mags will report the rumor as fact in a future (May-June) issue.
Based on your other post, and the article on the R-142s in Tuesday's New York Post, I think it's pretty clear Bombardier's ability to put wiring and electrionics into their rail cars is about on par with the Chrysler Corporation right before they went bankrupt in the late 1970s (I drove a rental New Yorker where when you stepped on the brake, the time on the digital clock changed).
Hopefully, neither Amtrak nor the MTA will accept delivery until the problems are fixed. Better to continue running with the old equipment to put the new stuff in service and have it immediately fall apart. (Plus if the Redbirds stay around a few more years it won't hurt my feelings)
What about "Atlantic Clipper." Naming this bullet train THE bullet train implies there will never be another. American Flyer implies the same thing.
I agree, ACELA sounds like a disease. It really infuriates me when consultants get contracts to do stupid things like this. It reminds me of a study the TA paid for a while back. The consultant announced that Brooklyn is a hotbed of subway ridership, accounting for one-third of the total, as if this were a surprise. (If you exclude Staten Island, which does not have a subway, it accounts for one-thrid of the city's population).
Wait a minute there, STATEN ISLAND has the Staten Island Railway, uses modified subway cars and falls under the New York City Transit on the MTA Web site. 20,000 riders I think.
I think Larry just GOT YOU.
He'll do most anything to start a debate :-)
Mr t__:^)
Whoa. The American Flyer name lives today. Lionel acquired the rights to the name after the A. C. Gilbert Company went out of business, and is manufacturing Flyer trains today. American Flyer can trace its roots back to 1907 and W. O. Coleman of Chicago. Gilbert took over Flyer in 1938. Gilbert's demise is a whole different story, which I won't get into here.
"Acela" - yuck is right. That has to be the worst name these marketing types have come up with yet - worse than "Exxon". I suppose it is supposed to suggest "acceleration", but with only one "c" it really doesn't. It makes me think instead of "Akela" - a wolf in The Jungle Book and/or the mythical leader of the Cub Scouts. Not very good associations for a high-speed train. Perhaps they should have stayed with "American Flyer". Wasn't that a model train maker though, a competitor of Lionel? Maybe it should be "Metroliner II" (or III) or "SuperLiner" or... No, not "Super Train", that was a
TV show...
I've got it: "AmeriLiner 2000".
I think the name fits right along with other memorable ones such as:
"Kiwi Airlines" (Kiwi is a bird that can't fly)
"Chevrolet Nova" (No-va in Spanish means won't go)
Agreed - but in all fairness to Kiwi Airlines, they are based in New Zealand, and New Zealanders are known as "Kiwis".
Of course, I remember my '82 Plymouth Reliant SE wagon fondly too - we called it the Unreliant. Great railfan car, very manueverable in heavy chase traffic (chasing N&W 1218 and 611 mostly) when it ran - but that was the operative phrase, "when it ran". Now I'm back to FoMoCo products that just won't quit no matter how hard I push them.
But I digress, so I'll sign off for now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, another UnReliant!!! We had an 83 - it was a DOG!! Two camshaft replacements (at Chrysler's expense( plus a new engine at 79,000 miles (my dime). Brakes that needed relining every 25,000, added to windshield leakage and othe rfun stuff. We junked it in 1987 and went Toyota, and never bought American again. It was a great railfan car, as Anon_e_mouse mentioned - great for train chasing, plus you could jam it full of fans and it still went.
Our first car was a Plymouth Horizon, which we bought with 70,000 miles on it and kept for six years. Loved that car, and how well it suited our image (no one thinks you're a person who needs a fancy car for your ego when you drive a Horizon). It was kind of like the subway. And it ran. We could leave it buried under the snow for two weeks (since we normally use transit, we often don't need the car for a while) and it would still start. They don't make-em that cheap anymore, so we had to upgrade to a Saturn Wagon, but we really miss the old eco-boxes. Guess I'm just a spawn of the 70s.
I have a particular affection for Chysler products. My parents had an AMC Hornet of unknown vitage, and in 1981, bout their first new car (I was all of 6), a Chrysler LeBaron. Lasted us til 1987 with no major problems, aside from my mother's bad driving (sorry, Mom), which is finally what did it in. We slid off a dirt road and into a telephone pole, and I learned rather quickly that a seat belt is particularly important, the hard (headed) way.
Then we had a hand-me-down 1984 Olds Custom Crusier. At 50mph, all the idiot lights on the dash came on, and stayed on, till you hit 55. VERY odd. My parents finally replaced it with a new '94 Olds wagon, (again, Mom did it in, though it wasn't ALL her fault) which to date has been recalled 3 times and had the engine replaced by the shop that neglegted to install the oil drain plug properly.
My Father had a pair of Dodge Vans he used for his busines, a 79 (which had my name on the hood :) and an 81 (which had my brother's :(
They each lasted 10 years, and were quite literally driven into the ground. They were replaced with an 89 and 91 GMC Vanduras, both of which have now been repainted twice (warranty) and had their side sliders replaced due to corrosion problems. At least he maintains these properly...
Now, back to trains :)
-Hank
With the camshaft problems, I'm assuming you had the 2.6 - mine was a 2.2 (unusual for the SE model). It suffered from bad rings and a leaky headgasket until I had the motor rebuilt - also at 79K, as I recall - and plagued me with a large number of electronic glitches. I sold it at 132K to a couple who had surrendered their new car to the finance company in advance of a repo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm beginning to think my Jeep has a combination of BMT standard, Triplex, and R-32 blood in it. Consider this:
It's closing in on 355,000 miles, all on the original engine, which is still oil tight.
Almost 250,000 miles on the original brakes; still on the second set.
202,000 miles out of the original clutch; still on the second one.
Didn't have to replace the starter until the vehicle was one day shy of its eleventh anniversary.
Replaced the battery after 20 months; didn't have to replace it again for 9 years.
Gas mileage has been in the 25-28 mpg range; about 80% of all driving is on the highway.
OK, it's on its fourth alternator, fifth or sixth water pump, and fifth windshield, and the front axle bearings had to be replaced a year ago.
Maybe I should have taken out R-32 plates after all...
[ ... "American Flyer" Wasn't that a model train maker though, a competitor of Lionel? ] Yes, but in a different guage, i.e. "027"
Mr t__:^)
American Flyer was a line of model trains in 1/64 scale with two rail "S" Gauge track. It was best known as a division of the AC Gilbert Co. (Gilbert was the manufacturer of "Erector Sets" and many other items). During the fifties it was very popular. Gilbert went bankrupt in the sixties and the rights for the train line were sold to Lionel who still makes a small amount of products under the American Flyer name. Several other companies are now making a large amount of compatable products and the gauge is seeing more popularity now than it has since the fifties.
Lionel was owned by General Mills at one point, wasn't it?
Quiz: Name 3 Famous Generals!
-Hank
General Motors, General Electric, General Mills, General Schwartzkopf...
Yes, Lionel was owned by General Mills for a time, then was acquired by a private individual for a handsome price. During the mid-80s, production was moved to Mexico and, well, you can imagine what happened. Lionel Trains, Inc. is located in Mt Clemens, MI today.
While I have a good amount of Lionel American Flyer trains in my colleciton, most of my Flyer stuff is of the Gilbert variety.
The first 3 were the answers I was looking for :)
I read something in high school (way back, for me ;) about a survey taken to name 3 famous Generals, and these were the TOP 3 most common answers:
General Electric
General Mills
General Motors.
They rest of the top 10:
Shwartzkof(sp?)
Washington
Eisenhower
Custer (sometimes Custurd!)
Surgeon (as in Surgeon General)
Wayne (John Wayne!)
Lee (not specified if they meant the car or the man)
The point of the exercise was that we should read more, and pay more attention to history.
-Hank
American Flyer, produced by A. C. Gilbert in Connecticut - 1/64 (S) scale, both AC and DC models, 2 rail for both, two different styles of track over the years (hi-rail or tinplate plus a more realistic looking track similar in style to HO sectional), three different styles of couplers (only two of which were compatible). Gilbert also made 1/87.1 (HO) scale without the American Flyer moniker - I still have some from my younger days - and may have produced other scales, I'm not sure. They produced some beautiful New Haven sets; given their location, that's not surprising. Yes, they ended up being an also-ran to Lionel's superior marketing strength, but they were an equivalent quality product (unlike Marx, which ran on Lionel track but was of inferior quality). Particularly in light of their location and place in model RR history, it is unfortunate that Amtrak didn't see fit to use the name. Or perhaps it's because Lionel (now owner of the trademark and producer of an overpriced collector's limited edition line under the American Flyer name) wouldn't license it to them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Originally, when A. C. Gilbert took over American Flyer, they made O gauge trains, as did Lionel. They even ran on the same 3-rail track. The train line was retooled to 3/16-inch scale in 1939, but the trains continued to run on O gauge track. After the war, 2-rail S gauge track was introduced, and the competition was on. I got my first Flyer set on my fifth birthday; my mother figured I'd never go for 3-rail track. When I was a kid, she'd drag me over to train displays in whatever department store we'd be at, and it didn't excite me at all. Go figure. She blames herself for my interest in Flyer today.
DC operation was around very briefly for Gilbert Flyer trains, 1947-1950 or thereabouts, and was never expanded to the entire line. They stuck with AC operation after that, although the locomotives had universal motors which could run either way.
["Acela" - yuck is right. That has to be the worst name these marketing types have come up with yet - worse than "Exxon".]
Regarding the Acela = name of a disease theory, how about the following advertisement:
"Hello, my name is Susie, and I'm eight years old. I like to run and play with the other kids, but I can't anymore. That's because Mommy and Daddy say I have Acela. When you have Acela, you don't feel good and can't play or run or anything. Please, give generously to the Sweethearts Campaign for Acela Mitigation (SCAM). Your dollars will help find a cure so I can play with my friends.
Please make your checks payable to Peter Rosa."
Thanks Peter, that's great!
So I guess Acela is something like part ACne andf part rubELA, right?
Soupy Sales how I miss you, i.e. you want the paper from mom & dads wallet with the pictures of George Washington on them sent to you ?
Oh, Brother!!!
http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/soupy1.htm
Best source for checking urban legends on the 'net: San Fernando Valley Folklore Society This one, for we of the younger set, is true....
-Hank :)
They changed the name to Exxon from Esso, because of the corny jokes that could be made about it ("Esso-B"). At least that's why I think it was changed. I've seen Esso in Canada and England.
Esso (Eastern Seaboard Standard Oil) was banned from the southwest back in the 1920s for illegal business dealings, so they bought Humble Oil and renamed it Enco (Energy Company). By the 60s you also had the refinig division Enjay (their cute way of saying N.J., which is where Esso, Standard Oil of New Jersey, came from).
In order to have one name nationwide, they went to the marketing geniuses and they came up with Exxon in 1971. Thanks to that foresighted move, the name Esso has never been associated with Alaskan oil spills.
I remember seeing Enco signs at gas stations as a kid. In Ohio, you'd see Sohio signs for Standard Oil of Ohio.
Amoco and Chevron still had stations in the Plains states and Southwest that said "Standard" up until the mid 1980s. Nowadays though, all companies want their brands standardized nationwide.
BTW -- Is Hellman's mayonaise still Best Foods out on the West Coast?
- Do you have any independant knowledge of how far North they have got with the o/h wire at this point ?
- Is MBayTA diesel South of Boston, if so are there any plans to switch to elect. commuter equip ?
- American Flyer in O27 guage :-)
Mr t__:^)
The MBTA says they have no present plans to switch to electric equipment south of Boston. They have just purchased new diesel power; any changeover I believe would have to wait until the North-South Rail Link which would unite North and South Stations. That will happen about the same time as the Second Avenue Subway is completed :-(
I rode the main line from South Station to Mansfield just last week. There are poles, cross-arms, and hangers along the entire stretch, except for the immediate vicinity of South Station. There is wire up along much, but not all of that portion as well. I ride that line every few weeks, and see progress each time I ride. The high-level platforms at the Route 128 station are in the process of being built as well.
Today's Post reports big problems with the new car
order from Bombardier. Do we presume that nothing will be accepted until the TA is certain the cars are built properly? On Track For Disaster
(Do we presume the TA will not accept the cars)? The deal was to provide jobs for Upstaters. TA engineers might come under heavy pressure to accept the cars if the company says it needs to pull production back to Quebec. Especially if certain people would be out of office when problems develop.
Then again, my prior post assumes the story is correct. This is the NY Post we are talking about.
Get the Bondo out for the Redbirds, it looks like they'll all be hanging around a little while longer.
Simon will be thrilled to hear this, as will Larry too no doubt.
As for myself, I do have a soft spot in my heart for the 'Birds.
Has anyone seen the fire-engine red doors on the insides of #9186-9187? Interesting paint job- only one like it I've seen so far.
Wayne
I'm also happy. I/m going to enjoy the Redbirds as long as I can just as long as the kids don't bust into the cab and play with the PA. But I ignore it anyway.
Simon is thrilled. I shall bring some sticky tape over on Saturday.
And I shall bring the putty knife, steel wool and emery paper.
The rust spots round the doors and at the botoms of the carbodies are few and far between, at least on the #2 cars (the R33s). The #5 and #6 cars - that is another story.
Wayne
Hallelujah! Long live our beloved Redbirds. Maybe a supplier can give a special discount for a large volume Bondo purchase. If nothing else, they should be kept in mothballs for a long time once the R-142s do arrive.
I knew they shouldn't have reused those R-16 numbers...
Hey guys kind of makes you wonder if we would be having the same production problems if there were still the likes of the BUDD Co or St. Louis Car. After all think about it the R-32's are still rolling along. In Philly the M-3s can probably hold there own against the new high-tech M-4s. I wonder if the M-4s will be around as long as the M-3s?
Don't count on the M-3s being around forever. SEPTA is scrapping them like there's no tomorrow. Every time another set of M-4s enters service, there go some more M-3s. Are any of them going to be saved?
Why do I feel like we have another case like those Flexible buses the city had in the late 70's? Lemons. It's as if someone sees the TA coming.
I, as a life-long #2 train rider, am very dissapointed to have to read that. First I heard 1997 would be the year that the #2 line would get new cars. Then 1998. Then early 1999. Then April. Then July. Then December. Now because of shoddy workmanship on the part of Bombardier, they may not come at all? I think the line I grew up with, the #2 line, is cursed. Not only is the 2 stuck with the oldest, most archaic rolling stock in the entire tri-state area (as is the 5), but its cars were also one of the favorite targets for graffiti punks.
It is ridiculously slow in the Bronx, Harlem, and Brooklyn. It took the TA a million years to complete the lighting project on the Bronx elevated stations and they still haven't even started on Pelham Parkway. Look how long it took to finish the escalator project! Why have they waited until now to start modernizing the signals? Why didn't they start this sooner? Why does we still have those nasty, archaic jointed rails, unlike other lines that have nice, modern, smooth continuous welded rail? And now the 2 is going to be stuck with the same tired old cars into the new millenium?
Sure we were treated to (teased with) R-62s and R-62As in 1983 and 1984 for a little while there. But did they stay on the 2? Noooooo, they had to go to the 1, 3, 4, and 6 lines, didn't they? I'd like to know why. Guess I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up, should I? Then we got that cool new R-110A in 1993, and I got all psyched into thinking more cars just like those ten, or similar were on their way. And I kept hearing they were. But it looks like once again, I got my hopes up for nothing. Looks like the 2 is going to enter the 21st century with 19th century technology. What a shame! But it's that old curse again! Well, I'm hoping the Kawasaki R-142As have more professional people working on them and that they'll make it here soon. Otherwise, I'll just have to go live on the other side of the Bronx to ride in more modern equipment. Maybe the TA has some personal vendetta against the 2 train.
As A IRT Train Operator that worked many of days on the No.2 Line you may have something there. But look on the bright side the No.2 Line Riders isn't the worst treated riders. The No.5 Line wins that. Some weekends the No.5 doesn't reach Dyre Ave. Other times it goes to 149 St then cram into that sardeen No.2 to E 180 and get the Shuttle because of Weekend Trackwork. If theres a bad snow storm the No. 5 get knocked out. Ofcause the No.2 still runs 10 min headways dispite the extra riders. Also the No.5 will be the 1st line to get the R 142'S because E 180 was just overhauled to handle the new trains. If you want to talk about the Best IRT service that would be the N0.1,4,6 lINES
The No.2&5 Lines don't see to get respect. Both lines have daily inconvenace
Maybe you're right, but the 5 now has at least a few R62As while the 2 has none and the R-110A is still out of service (I think). But let me ask you about the R-142s. Will they run exclusively on the 5? To me that sounds like a bad idea even though 180th Street was specifically overhauled for them, because the 5 doesn't run all the time like the 2 does. It seems like the 5 is seeing less and less weekend service. If the 5 becomes all R-142s and the 2 remains all Redbirds that means a lot of the new cars would be in the yard while the older equipment would not be getting the maintenance and rest that the old faithful cars deserve. Still that scenario seems unlikely at least for long. If they do come on the 5 first, it won't be long at all before they start also appearing on the 2 like the R-68s which were assigned to the D and soon after began showing up on the Q (although the Q is now Slant R-40s and the B has its R68As).
One more thing. Why is Bombardier having problems building these cars? Are its Boston Red Line cars suffering from any problems (last time I rode them they seemed fine). What about its new Toronto cars? The R-62As are doing quite well as is their push-pull equipment on NJT and Metro-North. Something fishy's going on here. Shoddy workmanship? Is Bombardier cutting corners here?
As part of the contract, the cars needed to be assembled iun NY State. Bombardier, not having a NY State assemblyt plant, leased space at the former Plattsburgh Air Force Base, and hired local unskilled labor, as per their contract. Blame the state. If the cars were assembled at their Quebec plant by experienced workers, there likely would be fewer problems. Kawasaki, having an established plant in Yonkers, didn't need to start off with a new, unskilled labor pool, so I'd assume the Kawasaki cars will be better recieved.
-Hank
What happened to their Auburn, NY plant (Auburn is somewhere near Syracuse, I think)? If you look at the manufacturer's plaque on R-62As, you'll see three plants telling where the cars were made. The top one says "Auburn, NY." Some of them only have the other two plants, in Barre, VT and La Pocatiere, QC. But most plaques also have the Auburn plant. What could have happened to it?
Even thow they say The No.5 is the first line to get the trains some will make there way to the No.2 and then the No.2 will be the Second line to get the New trains
R110A have a bad brake and that why they out of service since last year
cracked trucks
As for car equipment, yes, White Plains and Dyre are getting the short end of the stick, but as for shortened runs and shuttles on the weekends, most times track work is done a diversion is called for. The only alternative is to shut the line down completely like they are doing with the Franklin Av shuttle. Nobody wants that.
And the big picture with Dyre and all this work is that in time there will be new signals up there and an M track all the way from Dyre to south of Morris Park, so INSTEAD of weekend shuttles or train breakdowns, the service can be run around the problem. In the long run it's actually an improvement.
Every line gets this treatment from time to time and right now it's the #5.
Ok, lets not get into a panic here. Projects like this _do_ often have problems. Remember that the newspaper has some incentive to make the issue sound worse than it really is.
(Projects like this do have problems). The TA has a real problem -- it can't just buy cars off the rack. It really is too bad there wasn't more of an interest in standardization 100 years ago. Rail cars are interchangable. Trolley cars ran everywhere. Buses are the same. But every transit system is unique.
There's not a single off-the-shelf railcar out there that can fit in the IRT tunnels? Not even in Europe, Asia, or South America? I know that both the Broad Street and PATCO lines in Philadelphia are the same dimentions which are also that of the R-110B and BMT Standards (so why are the R-143s going to be only 60 feet long?) What about the PATH cars. They're nearly the same dimentions as the IRT cars (and so much nicer looking). PATH is about to order new cars. Why doesn't the MTA look into a joint order with PATH (like the Baltimore and Miami Metro cars and the MUNI/MBTA order of LRVs). Of course considering how the Port Authority and MTA feel about each other...
You could always have some of our 1959 Northern Line tube size units.
Standarizing doesn't always solve problems - witness the disaster that the MBTA/Muni LRVs were. It sounds like most of the problems Bombardier is having are is either rooted in politics, or incompetent management. Seriously, building a subway car is not black magic, and it should be easy to do one to spec anyway. Quality control problems will occure no matter what - if you let a project get tied up in politics - or poorly run things.
Yes, the fact that everything is a custom order means that every order will have problems!
On the other hand, how "standardized" is passenger equipment? Do any of the big passenger RRs order off the shelf equipment any more? One real advantage they have is that they are moving, more and more, to locomotive hauled trains, even on electrified lines. But even unpowered coaches are specialized these days, to a large extent, as they move to bilevels and such to maximize capacity.
Another way of thinking about it: Every time the TA orders cars, they redesign them to some extent. Is this always worthwhile? In the long run, hopefully mostly!
I have arranged my first trip to Boston and I have a few transit questions:
What routes are trackless trolley?
Are the Mattapan - Ashmont PCCs still running?
What are some interesting subway /LRV rides from a railfan point of view?
Thanks for any help.
Rob
Trackless trolleys run in Cambridge and Watertown; the easiest route to get to is the Cambridge-North Cambridge #77A, which can be accessed at the Harvard Square stop on the Red Line. Note that trackless trolleys now only run weekdays during rush hour! Midday service was eliminated recently.
PCCs are indeed running on the Matapan-Ashmont line. In fact, they are being overhauled so that they can spend another 20+ years in service! Fortunately, a previous plan to scrap the PCCs in favor of LRVs or buses has been shelved in favor of the rebuild program!
The good news is that the Boston system is sufficiently small, that you can do it all in one day. Each line is different, and has "interesting" aspects. A few highlights:
Blue line: Change-over from overhead to third rail at Airport; running one-shot timer signals at full speed in the under-Boston Harbor tunnel.
Orange line: Grade level running in the southwest corridor; elevated/grade level north of the city.
Red line: New stations north of Harvard; the 1800 series "new technology" cars (similar in some ways to the R-110B); high-speed running on the Braintree branch; the Matapan-Ashmont trolley service.
Gree line: All of it! Ride the Boeing LRVs and the Type-7s. Note that there are two generations of Type-7s: 3600 and 3700 series cars (differentiated, among other things, by different door closing chimes!). If you are here after 15 March, it is rumored that two of the new 3800 series Type-8 Breda cars will be in public service. Ride the E/Heath line from Lechemere to Heath for great elevated and street running, with the central subway in the middle. Then take the B/Boston College, C/Cleveland Circle, and D/Riverside lines for their own unique rides on street and private rights-of-way.
If you have some leftover time, take a commuter rail (Purple Line) ride from North of South Station too. South Station routes often feature bi-level coaches, as well as the new Pullman rebuilds with electric doors.
The MBTA has a good Web site for additional information, and the New England Transportation Site can provide a lot more information, including pictures of the car lines' inventory.
Routes 71 and 77 feature trackless service all day except Sunday and venture about four miles west from Harvard Sq. Both run along Mount Auburn St. which adjoins the Charles River for a while, then skirts Mount Auburn Cemetary on the left. At the point where 71 and 73 separate there is a Star Market which occupies a former carhouse dating to the horsecar days. Both lines follow similar paths through mixed commercial/residential neighborhoods from this point outward. 71 Watertown terminates across the river from the former Watertown Carhouse, still in some sort of use by the MBTA. 73 Waverly loops above commuter rail station and skirts Oakley Country Club.
Another trackless line is 72 Huron. This route features infrequent service, narrow streets, several tight turns and left side loading on the outer end. 77A North Cambridge is a cutback of 77 Arlington Heights operated as an extension of 73 Waverly. Route 77 used PCC cars prior to 1955. It was proposed for conversion to trackless, but the work was never done. 71, 73 and 77A retained PCC cars until 1958, when they were converted. 72 was converted way back in 1937, and is the oldest remaining trackless line. All four use the Harvard Square Tunnel, along with a few bus lines. The trackless all have doors on the left side, and use them in the southbound tunnel, while the buses load and unload into the wall. Bus route 69 is a former trackless line, as are many others around the system.
I've noticed that the South Boston Piers Transitway is supposed to use trolley buses; at least the MBTA website is still saying that mode will be used.
1. How far beyond the transitway (if at all) will the trackless operation extend? Will there be just one route, or several branches?
2. Will this be a dual-mode operation like Seattle?
3. Has there been any interest in expansion of trackless operations elsewhere in Boston?
Thanks.
You might try and pick a recent copy of the BSRA's publication "Roll Sign" which ran an article proposing two day-long fan trips of the system, to be taken individually.
They stuck to the subway and trolley lines, and did not include the trackless trolleys of Cambridge and Watertown.
It would be nice if someone in NYC could propose a day-long trip over the New York system for out of towners, getting in as many different lines, types of rolling stock, and experiences as possible. Any takers?
Thanks to Todd, Phil and Gerry for the info. I am looking forward to riding trackless trolleys again. I lived next to a Toronto trolleybus route that was dieselised in 1992. It appears that Boston's trackless trolley system is heading in the same direction unfortunately.
It looks like all the heavy rail equipment in Boston is transvese-cabless, so I can park myself in front of the railfan windows. Is it possible to peak into the operators cabs and see the speedometers or not?
Thanks again
Rob
Rob,
The Blue, Orange, and Red lines all have full-width cabs. However on each of these there is a window on the left side from which one can usually peer over and see what's going on with the operator. Just the red line offers good views of the speedometer. Sometimes there is a curtain that is closed, but more often than not, you can get this view.
On the Green line trolleys, you can stand right behind the operator and see everything nicely.
On the Purple line (commuter rail), you can look into the full-width cab of the control car (center window, with see through to the front too), and get a clear view of the engineer, his controls, and speedometer. Note this only works inbound, as the diesel engines pull trains outbound from both North and South Stations. Also, you have the best shot at this view during rush hours. During off-peak times, the crews often close up the lead (inbound) car, much to the dismay of railfans!
I've got a Boston quesion, too. Who are the geniuses at the MBTA that have decided to continue running diesel hauled trains on the soon-to-be-electrified Northeast Corridor section between Boston and Providence. Doesn't Amtrak have a say in that decision, since the MBTA is their tenant on that part of the Corridor?
Well, evidently it does not make any sense to have specialized equipment just for that line. Also, electric locomotives are often more expensive than diesel locomotives - particularly if you buy used.
BTW, Amtrak operates MBTA Purple trains, so rest assured that they are aware that MBTA is running diesel trains under their wires. The only real problem I can think of would be if the diesels somehow damage the nice new tracks. But MARC in Maryland has been running diesels under the wires on the other end of the NEC for a while, due to electric locomotive shortages, and Amtrak has not gotten all upset down there.
There are so called railfan seats in Blue Line cars and the 1800 series cars on the Red Line... The Orange Line and Red Line(1500s,1600s,1700s) have large boxes for the ATO operation on the left side of the cab. Note, the Blue Line does not have an ATO system.
Going down in to the Montigue Tunnel, I thought I saw two pipes alongside the tracks, but then they stopped. That got me thinking. Other railroads sell or lease easements along their ROW. And AMTRAK is accepting parcel packages. Has the subway ever been used for freight (other than by the TA)? Are there any easements on the ROW?
Should there be?
Perhaps the most common historically has been the use of rr row for communication networks. Early competitors of Ma Bell leased rr row in Chgo. various current long distance carriers have fiber links buried along exWP Feather River Canyon linr, B&O(P&W) line north of Pittsburgh and of course the famous CHGO Tunnels originally claiming to be for phone lines , used for freight, lastly currently used for power and data/telcom row. BART here in SF Bay Area has talked of fiber network along row. TA certainly goes enough places
Back in the 1960s it was proposed to sell them to a guy called Chalk who would have run freight. The idea was killed. He claimed that the business(passengers) would drop after the 1964-1965 Fair.
As a matter of fact, BART currently is a passageway through the Transbay Tube for Fiber Networks, and, is laying an additional cableway along the ROW for additional Fibers to be used and leased. There is a huge potential here for revenues...I wonder if the TA is listening?
WMATA in DC is leasing space in the tunnels for fiber optics to be mounted to the walls. Nice Revenue producer I expect
I think BART was also part of a USPS experiment for collecting the mail...
-Hank
Many telecom companies use the old subway conduits to run fiber optic cable. My employer (and others) use the east side IRT conduits to link our downtown and midtown fiber networks. The MTA makes money on this, though I don't know how much. The city gets a cut also, a franchise fee. The city occasionally sends people to our office to audit our circuit inventory to keep us honest, which we are.
Maybe a subway historian can verify the following - Was the subway used to move U.S. Mail during World War 2? I read somewhere that it was, but can't remember the source.
Channal 2 News web site sez work on the Bridge will Begin April 23. I looked at the calender and thats a Friday. They claim it will end October 11. Will have to wait and see on that.
(Work will begin April 23). I wonder if the TA will adjust on the fly. Who knows what people will do? Is there an official recommendation for every station -- ie take the bus to X and take the train to Y? Will such recommendations be handed out separately at each station?
Web Site for Channal 2
www.cbs2ny.com
Hit the news button
(Click there). I did as you suggested, and clicked under "full story", but it wasn't the full story, since it didn't metion that half of the Manhattan Bridge tracks have been out for 17 YEARS!!!
Maybe the Williamsburg Bridge issue will focus more attention on the problem, especially if they run into trouble.
I'm sure there will be many advertising placards in the ENY assigned cars similar to what was in the IRT Redbirds when the Lenox Project was underway.
Larry, I certainly hope that information is passed out in a timely manner. My family and I use the Willie B corridor. I am on pins and needles waiting for official word as to start date and alt. options.
If any one apply for the Conductor? I am going to give you some question and you give me a answer. Please post subtalk and i will give the answer later.
#1 If a conductor operating a 10-car train with married pairs finds that he can no longer operate from the middle position, he must
A. discharge the passengers
B. operate from the 6th car
C. operate from the 8th car
D. call the tower
#2 Four short blasts of a train horn means that the train
A. is answering a signal
B. crew needs assistance
C. is passing caution lights
D. is requesting a route or signal
#3 A succession of short blasts form a train horn could mean that the train
A. is making an irregular movement through the station
B. is answering a signal
C. needs a road car inspector
D. has vandals aboard
#4 If an end door is unlocked on an R-44 car, it is indicated by a lighted______ light.
A. red
B. blue
C. yellow
D. green
#5 When an exterior guard light on a train car is lit, it DERINITELY means that
A. all doors are closed and properly locked
B. at least one door is not closed or properly locked
C. a door is being held open by a passenger
D. the doors on one side of the train car are closed and properly locked
#6 When an interior guard light in a train car is lit, it DEFINITELY means that
A. all soors are closed and properly locked
B. at least one door is not closed or properly locked
C. a door is being held open by a passenger
D. the doors on one side of the train car are closed and properly locked
These questions will not be on the Conductor Test that you can file for this month?
This requires too much knowlege of the system before training. They had no operational questions on the Conductor test I took in the 80's.
you never know it going to be on the test. Each test alway diffirent but can't not be the same question. This year you don't know what question going to be on test.
Having picked up an ARCO book, I can definately saw there aren't any serious questions about actual operations. Common sense safety questions, schedule and time questions, and landmark locations, to name a few.
-Hank
My book is not Arco. I bought the book is from Natinal Learning Corporation and have a a lot of diffirent questions in that book. Why don't you go to www.passbooks.com you can find alot of books and order it. Well i been study Couductor for week now and i study two hour a day. Well when the test come in June and you don't know what question going to be on the test. Last test i took was in 93 and some of question that i study was in the test but i didn't pass the conductor test. My score was 69%. So good luck
There won't be operating questions on the test. Just general saftey questions. On the test in the 80's we had a subway map and had to answer questions on how to get from one point to another.
That's good - I carry various versions of the NYCT subway map around with me at all times - inside my head!
Wayne
also brush up on some NYC landmark locations past and present.
one questions was where is St Patricks Cathedral and Rockerfeller Ctr located
A. 47th/50th st
B. 110th st cathedral pkway
c. 42nd st
d. 34th st
guess how many people picked B ?
where was The polo grounds located?
the original location of Madison Square Garden?
What station was Ebbets Field closets to?
The Polo Grounds was located at 155 street and 8th Ave. You can take the D train to get there which is now a apt complex.
The orginal Madison Square Garden was located at Madison Square Park and 14th Street. This one i am quessing at the Street.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Madison Square Park is located at 23rd Street, 5th Avenue and Broadway - Union Square is 14th Street.
Was there ever an MSG located at or near 14th Street?
Wayne
[Madison Square Park is located at 23rd Street, 5th Avenue and Broadway - Union Square is 14th Street.
Was there ever an MSG located at or near 14th Street?]
Nope. The original Madison Square Garden was at Madison Square, and its replacement (1920s?) was at 8th Avenue and 50th Street, now the site of Worldwide Plaza.
There once were some large theaters in the Union Square area. The last of these, the Palladium, was demolished a few months ago to make way for a NYU dormitory building.
Ahh, the Palladium, den of infamy that it was - I saw many a concert there, including the KISS Debut Concert where Gene Simmons set his hair on fire - and the LOUDEST concert I was ever at - Slade. Someone said the sound level inside was 112db.
Wayne
Odd thing about the Palladium, even though it was a well-known concert venue in its day, its recent demolition seemed to take place without any public attention. I read the Daily News or the Post almost every weekday on the train, and usually look at the Times online, but I don't recall anything about the Palladium. On the other hand, when the Fillmore East was demolished a couple of years ago, there was quite a bit of media attention even though some of the structure was preserved. Nothing's left of the Palladium except a hole in the ground.
Ouch! That's loud. We're talking threshhold of pain here. Even an A train of R-10s thundering past 81st St.- CPW wasn't that loud. Now, a Chicago L train in the subway might approach that noise level.
Oh, and BTW, Ebbets Field was within a block or two of Prospect Park on the Brighton line.
Madison Square is 23st and B'way. Caught a PBS show the other day, where they mention the guy on the statue in that park, at the corner of B'way and 23, is someone else's head on Abe Lincoln's body. I can't remember who it is, though. I've seen some old maps indicating you could take the BMT to the (political party) National Convention at Madison Square Garden.
-Hank
[Madison Square is 23st and B'way. Caught a PBS show the other day, where they mention the guy on the statue in that park, at the corner of B'way and 23, is someone else's head on Abe Lincoln's body. I can't remember who it is, though.]
It's William H. Seward, US Secretary of State and NY native, best known for purchasing Alaska from the Russians. Seward Park High School on the Lower East Side also bears his name. (Trivia question: what does Seward have in common with John Connally?) Why his head was placed on a statute of Lincoln's body is a bit of a mystery. One version I've heard is that the group who planned to erect a statue of Seward was falling short in its fundraising, and was only able to afford the head. That might not have been a problem had it been a statue of Marie Antoinette, but the group was at an impasse until they found an unfinished Lincoln statue and bought it for a reasonable price.
Speaking of odd statues, there's a strange one of Lincoln at the north side of Union Square. It's odd because Lincoln appears rather stout, which obviously isn't the way he's usually portrayed as being.
Well, the story given on the PBS show ('A walk up Broadway?') was that the statue people were short on funds, and the artist had Lincoln's body just lying around...
-Hank
I don't remember there being questions like that on the conductors test i took.There were no Questions that you needed to have any knowledge of equipment.Basic knowledge off the city will help.With some basic math and reading skills theres no reason why anybody should score less than an 80 on this test.Good luck to all its a good job
You know that there is about 80 question and from 1 to 40 it easy and 41 to 80 it kind of hard. Because i took my in 1993 or 1994 and i wrote the answer on the paper. Then i wait seven weeks from the test and i look up the answer from the chief. My test from 1 to 40 i have about 7 wrong but from 41 to 80 i have about 20 wrong.
I'd be willing to take a stab at two of them:
3. A
5. B
R-32s #s 3784 and 3785 have been sripped of parts and are out of service at the Jamaica Yard in Kew Gardens,Queens. i cant understand how the T.A. has a 379 million dollar surplus,but cant offord parts for cars that run on one of the busiest lines in the "B" division, being the "E"line. Also, the 4 car set of R-46s,#s 5554-5555-5557-5556 are still inside the barn at Jamaica Yard; in case you didnt know it,these R-46s have been heavily stripped for parts and have been Out Of Service for almost 4 years already!!! i hear thru the grapevine that these cars will be restored back to service, and the barn is awaiting parts...speaking of Jamaica Yard, the G.O. to rebuild the yard tracks is starting to progress quite nicely...
Guess what...there have been a couple of R68s in the barn and the yard at Coney Island Yard that have been quietly stripped of parts. I can understand this perhaps with the older R32 equipment, but for gosh sakes the 68s are just over 10 years old.
Does that really suprise you? There were 425 purchased and to this date, all are still classified as revenue active. Therefore there are no 'scrapped cars' from which to get spare parts. The original manufacturer and their vendors have a lead time of 180 or more days on some parts. Therefore if a car goes out of service and requires a part, rather than having two cars out of service for an extended time period, the part might be re-allocated from a car that is already awaiting material. Is this desirable? Not really. It's a record keeping nightmare. Is is necessary? Most definitely. To the best of my knowledge there are just 2 such R-68s out of service. One belongs to Coney Island and one belongs to Concourse. Both are repairable and will be restored.
Maybe they'll be souped up a bit...
Are #3784-3785 officially classified as "Revenue Inactive" yet?
I'll mark them as "orange" (currently out of service/with or without revenue-inactive status) on my master list.
Wayne
Put away your crayon, Wayne. Those cars are being put back together.
Actually, it is just the act of undoing the orange coloring of the two cells in the R32 (and R32 Census) workbooks. I did not annotate my handmade (spiral bound) numbers book, only the 1-2-3 sheets. Thanks for the info - undoing changes on paper involves whiting them out (I have done this a number of times).
I use Berol colored pencils but I do have a set of 96 Crayolas that Roe gave me for my birthday a couple of years ago.
Wayne
Crayolas rule.
Hey Wayne do you think I could check out your spreadsheets?
-Dave
Absolutely! Shall I pack them all up into a ZIP and mail them to you?
I have the following:
R4, R6-7-9, R10, R12-14-15, R16, R17, R21-22, R26-28, R27-30, R29-33,
R32, R32 Census, R33WF-R36, R38, R40-40M, R42, R44, R46, R62, R62A, R68, R68A, Odd Lots (which are R11,R130,R131,Q Cars, Multi Sections [pro forma list]), Steinway WF Lo-V, SIRT R44, PATH, LIRR MUs, LIRR Diesels, DC Metro and MARC.
A number of these carspottings date right back to Day One, which is April 7, 1969. I seem to have been spotting trains for thirty years now.
Come to think of it, here it comes now...123files.zip
Wayne
Starting at 7am on 3/15/1999 all station booths will be selling the MSG Metro CHannels MetroCard. To be sure you get one, go early and find a 24 hour booth.
Many thanks for the input !
BTW, would you happen to know if any stations are still selling the Ferry Boat MetroCard ... several of us have been having trouble finding one, e.g. one friend even went to South Ferry without success.
Mr t__:^)
I have not seen any bulletins on the Ferry Card. I worked SOuth Ferry and serached-no ferry cards. You might try Whitehall BMT or St George in Staten Island. Sorry :-(
Never seen it....
-Hank
After my experience on the 4,5,6, yesterday might I suggest that riders crawl to their destinations across broken glass. You will not only get their faster, but more comfortably. Whats more trails of broken glass stop a Bleeker street. And are less likely to go Express without an announcment.
What kind of sick, twisted, transit employee thought up that unceasing sadistic loop of announcments at 14th Street? Most people I know would agree that pulling the plug on that recorded loop would would improve the NYC Transit system by 1000%.
Is this the SAME Chris that was going for the MetroCard dip/swipe record ?
Are you still making friends on your way OUT of the station ?
Mr t__:^)
You Bet!
I haven't heard the 14th Street tape loop in awhile. There used to be two recordings about the gap fillers; the first would be in English by a woman who sounded like a school librarian, then a man's voice would give the same message in Spanish.
Now it runs in English only continuously without breaks and syncronized in a way so that it drowns out train announcments.
Chris, I agree that those annountsments are a Pain but theres a good reason. There where lots of Passandger Injuries and gap filler overruns witch cause some problems with People not watching the gap. So Transit has to cover themselves with that every 2 Sec very loud Annountsment. But I notices there is an increase of conductors assigned to work the platform. On the rush Hour there even a Train Service Superviser patroling 14 St-Union Sqaure.
Perhaps the problem is the voice on all the TA announcements sounds like one of the Stepford Wives. Perhaps instead of repeating the same message, they could have a series each of which is intended to appeal to a separate sub-set of the regional population. The existing announcement is good for people from Connecticut. For Brooklyn I recommend "Yo asshole, get yo butt away from the edge." If they can install car alarms that say "Back away from the car!" when someone approaches, surely they can do that.
Now, now, we don't want people taking boxcutters to the loudspeakers in Brooklyn.
Yes, Larry, In London they have a Geeves the Butler sounding voice informing you to "MIND THE GAP"
Next stop "toity toid and toid"
The press release states that ACERA will charge $135 each way between BOS and NYP. The current full-fare, walk-up shuttle (Delta or USAirways) is $203 including departure tax. However, the shuttles have off-peak fares of $90 which are available Saturday and Sunday until 3:00 p.m.; they also have student and senior discounts. In order to remain competitive, ACERA will have to have similar incentive pricing schemes (though off-peak for the train is not necessarily off-peak for the plane!).
The New York Daily news says $140 for the fare NYP to WAS. You can even fly cheaper to National on the non shuttles. For example this weeks TWA Web Saver is $69 Round Trip JFK to National but you have to fly Sat and return Mon or Tue.
I've also gotten fares of $70 yo $90 each way on non shuttle airline (Jet Service BTW, not Prop).
I don't think even Amtrak's "Midtown to Downtown High Speed Rail" is gonna pull too many pax from the airlines. I'm pulling for them though. My travels to DC except in emergancy situtations have been by rail with upgrade to Custom Class for the extra leg room (I'm 6'8"). Leg room even in Coach on Amtrak beats out any regular airline (except exit row in a 72... (727).
Acela. The problem with made-up names is that they're not always easy to spell and/or pronounce. cf. Amtra[c]k.
It would be great if Amtrak finally gives some kind of frequent-rider mileage or better discounts to bring train pricing more in line with that of the airlines. Here's to hoping...
Also, the so-called Acela Regional service (today's NortheastDirect) will not charge as much as the Acela Express (on the American Flyer), so the $135 one-way Express fare is really on the high end of what Amtrak will charge. The cost of a ticket on the Regional trains will presumably stay closer to what it costs now on NortheastDirect. Since even the Regional trains will be faster BOS-NYP thanks to electrification, it's not such a bad deal.
The really interesting thing is that Amtrak will increase service to Boston from nine to seventeen trains daily.
I read in a Newsday article ( http://library.newsday.com/getdoc.cgi?id=127138421x0y29047&OIDS=1Q001D008&Form=RL&bp=no ) that Acela service will go to buffalo. Will the new train really run Empire Service as well? I thought it was just DC -> NY -> BOS. I hope the fare doesnt go up that much for the Empire service as well.
That service will be run with refurbished Tuboliners, paid for by NY State, with service funded under 403(b). But good god, that NAME! They should, barring trademark problems, call the service 'American Flyer.' Hey, they didn't stick with 'Railpax.' Acella Chysler (SI) should sue for TM infringment, that'll get a name change. :)
-Hank
[ ACELA Bullet to Buffalo ... That service will be run with refurbished Tuboliners]
- Interestingly the article doesn't mention that the Bullets aren't going everywhere, i.e. Harrisburg, Buffalo, Richmond, Albany, Newport News, Springfield, etc. It says ACELA "... will replace routes now servered by Metroliner, Empire, ... "
- It also talks about FUTURE service elsewhere, e.g. Calif, Gulf Coast, etc.
- The only hint that ACELA will be supplemented by other AMTRAK trains is memtion that 333 pass cars & 52 cafe will be "modernized"
- The article includes a nice photo of the engine
Mr t__:^)
Acela is just a catch-all brand that encompasses all of the Northeast services, regardless of route or equipment. Acela is composed of three "types" of services, only one of which is new in any significant way:
Acela Express - new 150 mph tilting trainsets, with limited stops on the BOS-NYP-WAS route only
Acela Regional - current NortheastDirect, Empire, and Keystone services, using refurbished Amfleet cars (which presumably will have to be repainted again)
Acela Commuter - current Clocker service
So the "Acela service to Buffalo" is really just the same Empire service that's there now. The new tilting trains obviously can't go to Buffalo because there's no catenary on the Empire Corridor. The Turboliners, when they're done, could reasonably be branded "Acela Express" as well, since they're supposed to be high speed, but who knows.
David, Thanks for the update. I expected it must be something like that.
- The Turbos you're talking about are they the P42-9PH ? They are the successors to the F40PH & P40s ?
- What kind of service will the AEM7s & E60s be relagated to ?
Please pardon me if I have some of these model numbers wrong.
Mr t__:^)
The turbos are selfcontained, gas turbine train sets made by Rohr years ago...
The AEM-7 looks like it'll be around for the foreseeable future, though NJT, Septic, or Marc might get a few. One would imagine the MBTA would switch to electric on their lines that run on the NEC, but they aren't :(
The E-60 is on the way out. Finnaly. The replacements are even uglier, feature 8000hp, and are also in testing out west. No word on what they'll be used for, or who gets them once Amtrak gets broken up in 3 - 4 years (I hold no hope of them surviveing as one entity without their uncle Sam giving them money)
As far as Acela - sounds like Amtrak finnaly figured out that Amtrak is the number one reason why people don't take Amtrak. My guess is they're trying to distance NEC operations from the rest of Amtrak - maybe they are possibly looking to split / sell it off? Anyway, I'l be looking forward to taking these things at least once next year, though New Haven -> NY is probbly gonna cost an arm and a leg :(
I don't know much about the Turboliners. I believe they are gas turbine trains imported from France in the 1970's (someone correct me about this if it's wrong!). They're integrated trainsets, with a locomotive at each end and 5 coach cars in between, and in theory should be able to run up to around 120 mph.
Anyway, they ran in service for a while, experienced various problems, were yanked out of service and mothballed indefinitely. One Turboliner was rebuilt as a test, and it's still used today for NY-Albany service. Funds for rebuilding five more (and for track improvements) were just approved in the fall of 1998, to speed up NY-Albany-Buffalo service and hopefully increase frequencies to western NY state.
I vaguely remember hearing about AEM-7's being overhauled, don't know if it's true. There are new "AME-125" electric locos being built (sometimes I've seen them called High-HorsePower - HHP). Maybe the E-60's will be retired, with whatever's left pulling Acela Regional and long-distance trains on the NEC.
There were 3 attempts at high speed, gas turbine powered trains by Penn Central / Amtrak.
TurboTrain(tm) - Made by United Technologies in the 60's, featured 4 or 5 P&W gas turbines, direct drive, articulation, single axle trucks, and a repution for breaking down and catching fire. Noteable for it's glass wall between the front lounge and the cab, and it's passive tilt feature, which, like the single axle design, was probbably ripped off from the Talgo. A dismal failure.
TurboLiner - Imported from France, made by ANF, of R-68 fame :) Somewhat better, they had 2 turbines, and I believe featured hydraulic drive. Not spectacular, but at least functional. Not in service anymore though.
Rohr TurboLiner (RTL) - Licensed design, actually one of the few things Rohr did right. Being rebuilt, still in service. Seen one in Penn just last year.
As for Amtrak's electrics:
GG-1 - Needs no introduction - retired '82 - '83
E-60 - A failied attempt at a GG - 1 replacement. Capeable of 11kv 25hz, 12kv 60hz and 25kv 60hz operation. Origionally 6000hp, since derated. Lousey trucks, same as P-30 diesel, were prone to derailment I believe. Unreliable, noisy, and butt ugly. Many a photo exists of a GG-1 comming to rescue a dead E -60
AEM -7, also 'Toaster' or 'Swedish Meatball' - 7000hp Box motor, Amtrak's standard electric loco. Built by EMD and ABB, they are somewhat more reliable, feature radial trucks, and make lots of noise. May be / have been overhauled. Expect to see them in the future. I'd go as far as saying they are the worthy replacement to the GG-1, but they are too ugly :)
Meatballs as worthy replacements for the GG-1? Man, I'd like to know what you've been smokin'! True, the E-60 had reliability problems from time to time, but the Meatballs just can't start a heavy train. I've ridden the Silver Service trains - 20+ cars - pulled by a single E-60 (or a single GG-1 back when it was still the Pennsylvania RR hauling them for the Seaboard Coast Line) but if they get beyond 12 cars now they have to add a second Meatball just to get away from the platform, and even that's a strain. My older son and I have taken several photographs of 19 and 20 car trains with three Meatballs on the point.
A worthy replacement for the GG-1 has not yet been delivered. We'll see what the new engines can do and pass judgment in a few years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm. I wonder how many folks will idolize the Meatball or the E-60 after they are gone, just like the GG1 is idolized today.
Railfans are a conservative lot. There will be a bunch of them who HATE the new 150 mph service just cause its new. Moreso cause they have the nerve to CHANGE THE NAME! Adding insult to injury, the new name has no historical or railroad connotations. Of course, this may be good from a marketing point of view, but railfans hate it.
Over on the usenet, there is a minority that is eagerly awaiting the failure of the new service that they are sure will occur. This includes Amtrak employees. Sad, no?
Yes, it is sad. I have high hopes for the new service, even though I'm not likely to ever make use of it (maybe once, NY-to-Boston, just to say I've done it). It does have a great deal of promise, both as a sorely-needed service in the Northeast and as an example of how good passenger railroading can be - regional rail as well as long distance - in the rest of the US.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no worthy replacement for the GG-1 - The Motor that could pull Hell of its foundations. We used to watch as the southern railroads would use 2 E6-7's to pull 10 or eleven cars. Three trains would arrive at Washington Terminal, and the Pennsy would combine the sleepers, add 8 or 10 coaches, a pair of parlors and 18 cars from the south - and 1 G would haul the whole train at 90 MPH - all the way to Penn Station.
GG-1 - an 11,000 volt, 25 cycle Steam Engine!!
They will never make its equal again.
You got it. There will never be a replacement for the GG1.....How I love typing "GG1".......it's the GG1, then there's everything else.......The GG1: the BEST machine ever built!
I just put up a load of GG1 Photographs under the "Grand Central" commuter rail section.
-Dave
Dave, I love those pictures of the GG-1's. You really do a great job! I do have a question though. That picture of #4973 near the end isn't really a GG-1 is it? It looks so much like an EP-5 similar to those the NH used to have. I don't suppose there is any chance of a spread like this of the Open Platform Gate Cars?
Regards, Karl B
Oops, you are correct. I thought I moved all the non-gg1 pictures out of that page before putting it up.
I'm working on some things of old El scenes and cars. It's going to be mostly photos without much text unless we can find a volunteer to work on it.
-Dave
Dave: many thanks for posting the GG1 shots. The one at Hunters Point with the M1 in the station bought back pleasant memories to me. Many afternoons I would ride my bike from our apartment in Greenpoint over the Pulaski Bridge and spend many a PM rush hour watching the #7's, LIRR moves at Hunters Point station and the PC trains going toward Penn Station on their way to pick up their commuters and long distance passengers. .
Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hold on, I thought one of the problems now with AEM7 is it can't haul the roadrailers or whatever they are calling it. They still need the E60 for that job. I'm not sure of the problem something about the trainline brakes??
Could the GG1 haul all types of frieght??
Amtrak still runs FAST MAIL's of AEM7's and MHC no pax cars.
The GG-1s were quite capable of hauling freight, and often did, especially after the demise of the P5/P5a units. The earlier motors (4800-4859(?)) were geared for 90mph running while the later ones were geared for 100+mph, as I recall (someone out there correct me if I'm wrong - I'm writing this at work and don't have access to my library) and consequently were the ones most often used for freight. The Morning Sun book Pennsy Electric Years has at least one picture of three GG-1s on the point of a freight but this was unusual - they normally worked singly or in pairs as required for the tonnage. The E-44s were supposed to take over all the freight duties from the P-5s but apparently didn't do the job as well as anticipated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a great GG1 freight picture if you guys have never seen it:
Penn Central GG1 4919 on Hell Gate Bridge
-Dave
Thanks Dave - I had seen it before but it's a good reminder (for all of us) of what's out on the site!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I like the GG-1 picture, but is that a freight train it's heading up? Those look like express cars ('REA Express'?) which would have more likely been on the head end of a passenger train, no?
Just curious.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Added to the fact is that 4919 is a passenger G - the freight G's were all low 4800's, and they were usually dirty. 4800 (Old Rivets) got the bicentenial paint scheme (poweder blue) since it pulled the Bi Special. It had been the "standard" Dirty Black (Brunswick Green) worn by freight G's.
Philip, Nice detailed post ! I only have one comment re:
[TurboTrain(tm) - Made by United Technologies in the 60's ...
A dismal failure.]
These also ran in Canada "CN ?" much longer, but I didn't pay attention to HOW they ran ... did CN get the bugs out ?
It's too bad P&W/United Tech didn't put more effort into making a better product. If they had we might have a lot of turbos running in this country AND P&WA wouldn't be so dependant on A/C engines.
P.S. I also wish Grumman would have kept making canoes ... anyone ever paddled down the Peconic River ... you start by Grummans plant & end up in Riverhead ... Cranbery bog to Crambery bog.
Mr t__:^)
The new tilting "high-speed" trainsets could conceivably run on the Keysone line to Harrisburg, as that city is the terminus of westward catenary. At present, Amtrak runs deisel locomotives 99% of the time on the route anyway (causing an annoying 20 min. engine switch in Philadelphia for trains originating in NYC). So I imagine the only thing changing for Keystone service will be the name.
If so few electric engines are used west of Philly, does that mean they will try to eliminate the catenaries there?
As observed in another thread, it would be penny-wise and pound-foolish to do so. Hopefully the additional motors that have been ordered will allow them to restore electric service to Harrisburg within the next couple of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Hopefully the additional motors that have been ordered will allow them to restore electric service to Harrisburg within the next couple of years.]
If our prayers are answered!
I've read in trade publications that after Pueblo, the new Acela trainsets will be tested on the Main (Keystone) Line between Philly and Harrisburg.
I'd love to be a guinea pig passenger on those occasions.
Has anyone inquired of Amtrak about ticket availablity for the new service? I'd like to be one of the first passengers, but I have no connections with the powers that be. Curious if anyone has heard anything.
PF
I haven't - but if you do please post it, I'd like to join you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The problem fare-wise is that Northeast Corridor (non-Metroliner) Amtrak service is actually competing with the bus lines, and its not really competing that well. For Philly-NY the fare is $76-90 RT. The bus is about 20 minutes slower and costs 1/3 to 1/2 as much and runs every 30 minutes. These busses are almost always packed too. Personally I'm willing to save $60 for 20 minutes of my time.
For NY-Boston the bus is faster and costs about half as much. Of course the electrification will improve this, but not by much.
From a financial standpoint, buses are the way to go. However, I am willing to pay extra for the increased leg-room, decreased incidence of having to suffer various foul odors, and the virtual elimination of the risk of traffic jams and minor weather delays. If Amtraks service were marketed with this in mind, perhaps more would ride and fares would become more competitive.
Hi Everyone,
I know that about 50% of the redbirds (series 7000-8000 commonly found on the #5 and some #4 trains) on the IRT are slated for retirement by year 2000. Fortunately, many R-33 and R-36 cars on the IRT #7 line will stick around a while since their replacement will take years (hopefully). But what about those wonderful R-32 (circa 1965) and R-38 (circa 1966/67) subway cars? Will the MTA keep those cars in service for many more years to come? Does anyone "in the know" have any details? Thanks, in advance, for the help....
Cheers,
MIKE
As far as I know there aren't even any plans afoot to replace the R-32s and R-38s. The R-32s and maybe the R-38s should be around for their fiftieth birthdays.
Actually, I was thinking that the WF cars would be some of the first to go. They spend almost their entire route running in the outdoors, in all types of weather, whereas the mainline cars spend about 1/2 their day underground. So I figure there's a lot more bondo on those WF cars.
-Hank
There's another big difference. The Redbirds have a carbon steel skin, which is more prone to corrosion than the stainless steel which sheaths the R-32s and R-38s.
I'll stake a lot on this prediction: the R-32s will wind up as the all-time champions from a longevity standpoint for subway cars. Heck, they might even threaten the record held by, I believe, the Q cars, some of which stayed around for 60 years.
We'll see what happens.
Now there's a man after my own heart - AGAIN! Imagine seeing an R32 or R38 still rumbling about in they year 2024 - or (even better) a reconditioned Slant R40 still running in 2028 (oh, I'm dreaming aren't I?) I'd be 74 years old then!
The only thing I must stress is this: At least ONE FULL CONSIST of each of these classic subway car fleets (R32, R38, R40, R40M/R42) must be saved for posterity, whether it be by NYCT itself, or one of the many museums around the country. Let's not repeat the mistake made by scuttling all the R10s and the R27s/R30s/R30As. AND DITTO FOR THE REDBIRDS - one consist of each type should be saved - maybe two each for the R33 and R36.
I was aghast when I found out that ALL (except for two) of the R10s had been sent to the scrapyard. I couldn't believe they did that- even the GOH cars were scrapped. What a waste!
Wayne
Agreed. If the cars are going to go out, then it's only fitting that they go to Museums that are willing to keep them. Save a few on the NYCT property for Nostalgia Specials! Then again, putting them in Museums like Seashore and Shoreline would give railfans like me a time at the controls of the train, even though I'm not in a subway environment. Who says you have to be a TA employee to operate equipment on a leisurely basis?
I certainly hope my friends at the Shoreline Trolley Museum will be able to grab more NYCT cars. If they get at least an R33 World's Fair Car, I'd be happy (it would be a good companion for 6688). Speaking of R Types, the R17 is preparing for cosmetic surgery as it gets a fresh coat of paint (still redbird red) for the first time since it was on NYCT property.
I'm going to see if I can look around for more cars to put on Dave's Museum Page. Remember folks, that these cars don't necessarily have to saved in a Museum to be considered preserved; a car (from a particular class) that hasn't been scrapped is appropriate for posting on Mr. Pirmann's page.
-Constantine
> posting on Mr. Pirmann's page.
Mr! You make me sound so old :-)
-Dave
Well, better that that having us middle-aged coots call you a kid!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The one problem I had with the R17 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum was that advertisments. Heck they had MetroCard signs up in the car.
Was there a R17 running anywhere in the TA system when the Metrocard came out??
Sorry Lou, that you didn't like the advertisements. The R17 was NOT around when the MetroCard came out. 6688 was retired from revenue service in 1988, and she made her way to Branford shortly thereafter. My colleagues put up the MetroCard advertisements just to use up the space on the car. If they have the more appropriate 1987 and 1988 stuff, then it can be put up, and there would be no problem.
If there were R17s running in the system, then it would have been for work service, not revenue service.
Regards,
Constantine
I particularly like the "BRT" map that still exists in one of the subways at Branford !
Mr t__:^)
Metrocard ads?! BARRRFFFF! Lou (from Brooklyn), why didn't you
point that out to us? Sorry, one of our members must have been
a naughty railfan and put that car card up for amusement value.
I seem to recall that BMT standard 2775 also has some ads which were put in after it had been retired from revenue service.
If you're speaking of a GOH R-33 Redbird, would it still be compatible with 6688? Weren't the pin portions redone from 39 pins or whatever the number was to 52 during GOH?
There could be a compatability problem, but it seems unlikely. I recall the R17s running in trains of R36s on the Flushing Line during the time the R33 World's Fair Cars were being overhauled. Most if not all equipment, should be compatable with the exception of the cars that have different couplers (R44/46). I can tell you that the R44s and 46s are not compatable because of electrical issues. I think the worst thing that could happen with putting pre GOH cars and GOH cars together is the GOH cars might have a little more pulling power.
Can Jeff or Steve help out?
-Constantine
Of course Shore Line would NOT be interested in any of the GOH
redbirds, but purely as an academic question, I wouldn't advise
making an electric coupling between cars with 3 row electric
portions and 4 row cars. You'd have a row of pins hanging out
and probably shorting out. There shouldn't be any problem if
you push back the electric portion slide lock at the back of the
coupler first and make it an air-iron job only.
Here is some Subway dope about the film SERPICO for the movie list.
There is a background shot of a train crossing the Williamsburg Bridge.
There is a quick seen where Pacino, standing on the Ditmars Blvd. Elevated platform, spots a burglary in progress.
There is a scene in the 57th Street Station where Pacino and his partner try in vain to get potato chips out of a platform vending machine.
There is a scene where Pacino and pals celebrate the news of Serpico's blowing the whistle on NYC cops and they enter the UPTOWN BMT at TIMES SQUARE.
How do I call up that movie list???
The movie list is at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/movies.html
I'll add Serpico to it.
-Dave
Don't forget Class of '44, which featues the Triplexes.
Also do not forget in the Serpico movie, where the cops are talking in the park in the Bronx at the Grand Concourse and 161st street, in the background is the Jerome Ave #4 train Yankee Stadium-161 Street stop.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
This morning, as usual, I rode the BSS out of City Hall.
On the train, I got three pleasant surprises.
A: ANNOUNCEMENTS! Clear ones! The conductor wowed me with "This is a Broad St. express servicing Race-Vine, Spring Garden, Girard, Erie, Olney and Fern Rock Transportation Center....".
I haven't heard that in so long! He called out station stops, connecting bus and rail and get this-he advised passengers of rules of travel(no smoking, drinking, eating, etc) and said "Good Morning"!
That made my day.
B: The heat-was on! The car( I believe #577) was warmer than usual. Is SEPTA keeping their promise?
C: Halogen lights? Maybe not, but car #507 was brighter than any BSScar I've ever seen!
So, maybe there's hope for us all. Even SEPTA.
Jack, please report that operator to Mr. Leary and he/she will surely be reprimanded, retrained and reassigned!
I had a similar operator for about 4 months on my morning bus ride. She was pleasant, friendly, helpful, etc. With the February schedule changes, the run went back to reality - a surly operator (male) who only knows two pedals (accelerator and that other one next to it which must always be applied as if one were trying to smash it), can't tell time or read his schedule, can't pull to the curb at stops, etc. This is the SEPTA we've grown to know and love!
Friday evening March 19, 1999 7 p.m.
monthly Electric Railroaders Association meeting
extensive slide show on NYC subway 1984 thur 1989
location: downtown Manhattan 3 blocks north of WTC
Call 718 224 - 6824 evenings for invitation and information
I'm a NYCTA conductor in the BMT/IND right now and I'll be the first to tell you, it's not what it used to be. Growing up I developed, like all of you a love for this system. I'm not going to go into the details of the testing or how long it tkes to get the job after, except to say that I was list #70 after scoring a perfect 100% and it still took four and a half years to get the job!
After a completely inadequate 5 weeks of training you will be thrown to the wolves. I say it's not enough, because you aren't given sufficient time to learn each line's physical charicteristics. Where are the short stations? At what stop do the High School kids get on?
Passengers will spit at you. You will be routinely cursed at by people who think that it is their personal train. People will ask for addresses in neighborhoods far from any train station, and when you don't know, they will get mad at you.
Learn how to skip meals. TA writes the work programs for robots. A train will arrive at a terminal late(typical) and since you only have 16 minutes of a break, take away the 3 min lateness and the two min ahead of departure time you have to be on the train, and the 5 min round trip walk to the bathroom, well, learn to hold it, because god forbid you need to stop the train down the line to use the bathroom! This is so they can squeeze an extra trip out of you, and cut another conductor's job. That's called productivity!
As for respect from your bosses? That went the way of the R9. Management expects you to always be on time, and nevermiss a day of work. If you are sick, be prepared for a supervisor to visit your home. If you make a mistake (and it's always YOUR mistake never theirs) then kiss your job goodbye. There is no room for for forgiveness at TA.
The restroom facilities for the crew's look worse than ANY I've ever seen. That's how your multi million dollar profit (I refuse to call it a surplus, I'm too honest) came to be.
Dispatchers will beg you to do them favors like making an extra trip when they are short. But you better ask mom for money if YOU need over time.
Don't get me wrong. I love this railroad and I feel like I won the lottery most days. Nothing beets the feeling when a passenger recognizes you and say's "You're a great Conductor" But I'm also grounded enough to never trust the TA, and I've seen enough to really hate management. Please understand how most of them, dispite having been conductors or motormen at one time trully hold the rest of us in contempt!
So now all you aspiring Conductors know the whole story. Two more things. One; We are not doormen, nor announcers. We are in charge of the train. Yes opening doors and speaking over the PA is what we do most. But our responsibility is the safety of our passengers and train. You are the boss, learn you job as well as you can ( TA won't teach you all you need to know) and manage your trains time effectively. There is way more time in the schedrule than you need, so most trains run early. Hence the holding lights we all hate. The mark of a trully professional conductor is one who is never early. There's always an excuse for being late, what's the one for being early?
Two; Murphy's law has a twin in the subway, it's conductors law.
The pretty girl never gets on in your car. If she does, then she's getting off at the next stop. If she stays on, then she must be married.
People wait for trains. Trains don't wait for people.
If, a passenger isn't standing in front of the doors when the train stops. Then they will be standing there when the train leaves.
Good Luck
Isn't that the truth. My son is takeing the Conductors Exam. But he knows what hes in for he rode my train and learning the job since he was 9 YRS old. Hes now 17 YRS old and been on the trains with me on my 3 trips every weekend and Vacation. The crew think of him as one of us. Some dicarage him and others promote him. He knows what its like to go in and out at Termanals like all of us transit employees know it. But is still is going for it. Good Luck to all! But take into consideration its a combat zone out there. But don't let it stop you if your really into the job.
I did it for a year in the early '60's running streetcars for Baltimore Transit out of York Road Car House. I had cold cars in the winter (nothing like 8 hours in the seat during a snowstorm with ice frozen on your trousers), passengers that didn't know from s*** where they were going, or were they were. Like Erik said, the pretty girls were either sitting in the back, or if not, married. The folks who wouldn't walk out when the car came if their lives depended on it. Idiots who thought the streetcar was their personal lunchroom, sat in the back and thought I couldn't see them smoking. Transfers rolled up in a ball, at rush hour with 40 other people getting on, half of which needed change. Coupling a disabled car to a live one for a "Drag Job" - in the driving rain, then working the rest of the day damp. After 8 L-O-N-G hours, go home, and start the whole thing all over again the next day.
And I loved it. I refused to drive buses, and in 1966 signed on with the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. It's 33 years later, I'm still there, and I still love streetcars!
Every job has its share of headaches! The job I currently do is a high-pressure one, to say the least (I work in information services/technology). However, I see writing on the wall a few years down the way - it spells "obsolescence". My father, an ex-NYCT employee who joined late in life (in 1970 at age 55) as an air brake maintainer, is very happy with his retirement benefits. He knows the place I work has no retirement package. However modest the NYCT retirement package may be, it is better than none. Plus, if I get accepted, I get to work in one of my favorite places on earth, doing what I have always hoped I could do. For that alone I think can put up with whatever [expletive] may come my way. I certainly put up with enough of it right now.
Wayne
As a bus operator I felt the same way as Mr Dina. I loved the aspect of driving the bus but dealing with New Yorkers is not easy. Management at times may not be very friendly either. But as a dispatcher now I see the other side of the coin and why management may sometimes want to crack the whip. Now I deal with 100's of different bus operators and 90% are great who sometimes need a little reminder here and there while the other 10% are the trouble makers who can never work with me as a their supevisor and always need correction. The best part is that occasionally I will operate a bus to move it to the depot and I still love driving the bus.
As was said before on this page, you still have a small group of transit proffesionals who love transit or some aspect of it as is evidence by those who frequent this page unlike the majority who do it just for a paycheck.
I have been a Station Agent for just over 1 year. We have it rough too. If we need to use the restroom we have to call up supervision and ask. They will ask us" can you wait"
Lunch- we have 30 minutes, and that is if the lunch relief shows up--many lunch reliefs are pulled by supervision to man booths so we'll get a call from supervision "I'm paying you for lunch- what's your pass number?"
We have nasty customers banging on the booth and asking us for non-existent directions or they say " I want to go Uptown". I ask where and they say "Uptown". I ask "Which Station" and they say "Look, I want to go uptown!!" I answer "Yes, I know you want to go uptown but which station or which street." Meanwhile, the line behind them is growing in length and their tempers get short-the line starts screaming. Finally they "Uptown" walks away cussing you for not knowing where they wanted to go and tells us "#@%@" or "You should retire." I respond "Have a good day. Thank you for riding."
Or the person who gives us $12 in dimes and nickels and wants a Metrocard. Oh, by the way -they wont let us count their money! and we do count the money. meanwhile, the line is growing and ...
I could go on, but you get the point.
I still enjoy the job--sure the facilities in many station are worthy of being condemned but I am a public servant and I am there to serve my customers. We are professionals.
I have been fascinated with the subways since I was a young child to the extent of "playing subways" rather than more traditional play activities. I left a job with the federal government to work for transit and I'm glad I did. Just remember- no job is perfect. Every job has things you want to change.
I took the station agent test last Dec 98 and i haven't recieve my score yet. So how long it take you to call you? How many weeks of training? Does you go to diffirent booth?
I took the test October 1996. I was called for first interview August 1997, drug test fall 1997 and final physical January 1998. I started class 3/8/1998. Training is four weeks in a classroom. You get one day in a booth observing someone else and two days of actually working in a booth with an experienced station agent to help you but you are in charge. Then you go back to class and take your final exam. You will be what they call extra extra. You may get to choose AM, PM or nights or you may be assigned to one tour. You will call each day, during what would be work hours on your tour for your job for the next workday. ON your second day off, you call for the job on your first day back at work. I work nights- that means from 1am to 4am I call for the job for the next work day. I am off Tuesday and Wednesday. On wednesday night(thureday am) at 1am-4am I call for the job for Thursday Night.
You will tell them in class where your home station is. This is a station where you live or perhaps near the baby sitter and you will pick a pay location where you will pick up your paycheck every two weeks. Expect to go all ovet the four boroughs. (We do not go to Staten Island).
Good luck- I look forward to seeing you on the road.(I might relieve you or you might relieve me--who knows!). e-mail me if you have morwe questions.
Oh, yes- You also spend one dayt at Coney Island Yard for fire school and "Universal Studios Coney Island"( A surprise awaits there! I'd spoil it if I said more!)
Geez, you keep my hours....
Lemme know if you ever work Wall St on the 2/3....
-Hank :)
You said it: no job is perfect. There are some things you just have to deal with.
Before you lose respect for supervisors, think about why they ask you to follow the rules, show up on time, ask you to be in uniform, point at the board etc. If everyone followed the rules and regulations, did not run their train hot and so forth, nobody would ever get written up.
Nobody said a transit life is easy. I've worked for the TA for 7 years in four RTO titles and I have seen all the different angles. There is good and bad in every title but upper management only recognizes the bad, with no reward for the good. The only good thing is that you can screw up several times and keep your job. In the private sector, you screw up once and you're out of a job. Maybe i'm going to sound like a hardass but maybe that's the problem, we as supervisors look the other way too much. I think the real problem is that there is not enough consistency among supervisors in enforcing the rules.
Thats true, as a transit buff I expect more from my operators especially concerning uniforms, running on time, and having general pride in their position. However my immediate supervisors and fellow dispatchers are really not overly concerned by such issues so I have discovered that just basically doing my 8 hours and going home is the best policy. I still enforce the above rules but I now handle such promblems on my own terms and dont really bother with writing violations any more. I made the mens room at Manhattanville depot with 2 months as a supervisor for just doing my job and not really being a hard ass. Still love the daily challanges of being a supervisor.
Ahhh, refreshing to see that supervision is the same Stateside...!!!
As a Duty Crew Supervisor myself, sitting on the fence between what is required (by management) and what is achievable (your resources) is NO easy place to sit.
Having writing about yourself in the mens room happens to us all.....
but at the end of the day we are theire to run a service.... Would the customer rather have a cancelled train due to the operator not being in full uniform...or have a service with the operator not lookinh his/her best ???
The challenge of the job is the best bet... 10 trains 10 drivers no fun..... 10 trains 7 drivers but all 10 run is what the job is all about.........
Keep up the good work Mr MaBSTOA.........!!
:^)
Regards
Rob London UK
and remember...
"The higher up the tree you climb - the more you show your bottom"
{I made the mens room at Manhattanville depot with 2 months as a supervisor....}
Wow, how long does it usually take to get to the men's room?
-Hank :)
(I assume I'm misiterpeting this.....)
Hank...Lol lol :^), 2 months before writing about supervisors makes the washroom walls.............
you can tell a good crew supervisor by what is written about him/her in the washrooms/toilets..........
Mainly questioning ones parentage and the like, this graffiti usually makes out that one supervisor is better than the next etc etc...sadly this type of graffiti sometimes spreads to include driving cabs and other lineside equipment. On the railways here in England the following usually applies:
Crew Supervisor takes duty,
He/She has to do everything as the previous shift did nothing
and you have done everything for the next shift.........
Next Crew supervisor books on......
The situation repeats itself... the last shift did nothing and has left it all for me to do, but i have sorted things for the next shift......
.
Funny business i'm sure!!! But EVERY depot has its good and bad supervisors, maybe a bit like the good cop- bad cop routine....
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Generally the rule is when you enforce the rules and operators don't like you you make the wall, which usually takes years of being an established dispatcher. Superindents or General Superindents are generally more apt to be on the wall because they are more of the enforcer of the rules.
As a practical matter, the on time expectation may be asking too much. Most bus schedules' recovery time at the end points is insufficient. Traffic condtions make buses late. A wheelchair customer will make a bus late. As a rookie supervisor, you are no longer "one of us", you are now "one of them"; I frankly look at a fellow motorman-made-supervisor differently than when he was my equal.
If an operator arrives 5 minutes ahead at the end of the line, has a 18 minute recovery and then leaves 5 minutes late for no good reason I wont be looking at him in a good light either!
Im not a heartless individual, but being a nice guy and being taken advantage of are two things. If an operator is my friend then he will be sure to do the right thing by me and I will reciprocate when possible. There are times when an operator has blown his recovery and I will tell him to take 5 to go to the bathroom or to smoke a cigarette, especially on long lines like the M101 and Q32.
One thing to remember is that nobody makes dispatcher before being an operator and I was an operator on the same lines I supervise now. I know what makes a bus late.
I've become a bit concerned that we haven't had enough multi-billion dollar fantasies on the site lately -- the RPA has us beat with Metrolink, so who are the real fans.
Here is my scenario. In my view, the subway actually has plenty of capacity, its just poorly distributed (ie all west of 5th Avenue and East of 9th). Adding stations and lines adds cost. Unless there are enough riders to pay for it, you end up with fewer trains per line. And waiting is bad.
So build the 2nd Avenue subway (two tracks, as proposed in the 1960s). But to save money, sell the four track BMT Broadway line to the commuter railroads (for their Great White Way non-subway connector to Lower Manhattan) and the Port Authority (for their service to LaGuardia).
To add two more tracks, build the 10th Avenue subway. Extend to the 60th St line to 10th Avenue -- stop and Columbus Circle for transfer -- and down 10th Avenue to 14th St, then over to the BMT 14th St line. Trains could run from Astoria and Forest Hills to Canarsie, changing to/from north-south routes all along the way.
So you'd have four track lines on 8th, 6th, and 4th Avenue, and two track lines on 2nd and 10th -- with an extra IRT line on 7th, and a couple of crosstowns. Hey, its only a couple of billion more. We could name it the Joe DiMaggio subway, since it would pass by the new Yankee Stadium.
Can the old elevated structure near 10th Avenue that once carried New York Central freights be rehablilitated for this use? Might save enough money to actually make this projet affordable. How many people would complain about train noise considering where the old freight el is? Maybe even add in a line to serve the Upper West Side along the Amtrak (I mean, Acela) right-of way.
Any new elevated line in Manhattan not along the West Side Highway (or Joe DiMaggio Highway or whatever) would produce a major NIMBY outbreak, while the city might be wary of doing a 10th Ave. subway, since that's the avenue they put Water Tunnel No. 3 under (though admittedly, any subway would be way above the water tunnel's level)
I've seen where the el is. It's quite close to the highway south of 34th Street. If anybody complains about trains then they can either hear better than a dog or have a serious hatred of subways (if that's the case then I suggest those damn NIMBY losers head for some small country town in the middle of Nowhere, where there won't be any subways to bother their precious little NIMBY lives). I suggest the new line make use of the Amtrak tunnel that Empire Corridor trains use to head upstate. It's close enough to the West Side Highway. I didn't hear anyone complain when Empire Corridor trains moved to Penn Station using that line. NIMBYs, if you live in Manhattan, there will be noise. That's what you get in a city. Better get used to it.
(If you live in Manhattan you will get noise). They passed a noise code which says that at any hour of the day, the noise noticeable in ones dwelling must be quieter than the humm of the refrigerator -- no matter whether your window is open or closed. The fines are draconian. Manhattan fails, so any NIMBY can sick the quality of life police on anyone anytime.
I still think the thing to do is to extend the L to:
10th Ave here it would turn north)
The New Penn Terminal
42nd (connection with the 7 extension)
North of 42nd it should jog West and run up the NY Central Cut
50th
57th (continuing via the cut to the new Trump development
65th Street
Then a 72nd street stop would be a terminus with the front end of the train meeting a newly renovated connection station at 72nd and Broadway. And West End Ave. exits on the back end of the train.
Meanwhile, the 7 train would continue West on 42nd Street, connect with the L at 10th Avenue. The back end of the 7 would exit into Port Authority. Next the 7 would head southwest under the maze of Lincoln tunnel over passes and stop right in front of the Javits Center on 11th Avenue and countiue down 11th Ave.
Stops at: 34th
23rd
14th(where a walkway would connect to the L at 10th Ave.)
4th Street
Canal
And finally 2 stops in Battery Park City
The Broadway Plan sounds good, but how do you connect the Broadway tracks with the commuter lines north of 57th steet, i.e. 63rd street lower level and the Park ave line, with the maze of existing subway lines and the existing connection with the 6th Avenue line. The FRA would require separation of commuter lines and Rapid transit. Also wouldn't you want to connect the south end to the LIRR Atlantic Branch as well?
Where could I find a track map of the original 1904 subway as it was when it opened? I assume that there have been some switching changes since then, at the very least on 42nd street.
In the NY Daily News Thursday March 11, page 30, is an article about some of the city's most powerful business leaders - among them titans of communications and finance - are mounting a campaign to have new subway lines built throughout NYC.
The leaders, including Time Warner President Richard Parsons, Tishman Speyer Properties chief Jerry Speyer and Lowes Hotel head Jonathan Tisch.
After the good folks of Subtalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I'm also campaigning to have a new subway line built.
I haven't seen the article yet, but without doubt, having the city's big shots get behind a push for subway construction can help a lot. It's worth pondering whether the Second Avenue subway would have been built by now had the affluent people living on the Upper East Side demanded it. In my view, their failure to mount a campaign for the line is a large part of the reason why it doesn't exist. Hopefully things are changing now.
I'm glad to see the drumbeat of publicity in favor of public works. You need it to drown out the NIMBYS.
Not to mention the hospitals industry. Have your heard all the "studies," reports, and press releases demanding more public money for health care -- an areas where we already spend more than anyone else? The hospital industry says its dying -- but its employment keeps going up and up. I guess they figure if they put more than 50 percent of the population on the payroll, they will have the political power to demand that the other 50 percent pay whatever they demand.
Remember, the money is there, but others are grabbing it. At the national average we'd be spending a billion more per year on transportation -- just in the city, just in the local level. If the federal and state governments (not to mention the Port Authority) returned its fair share, there'd be hundreds of millions more.
More for schools and transportation, and no cutting the poor off from their only means of subsistence if they are willing to work. Less for the Democratic health and social service pork machine, and the suburban and Upstate Republican civil service pork machine. Employment in these pork machines IS GOING UP!!!!
Yes, drown out out the NIMBYs and drum 'em out of the city. I always knew the money for subways was there. How nice to see the career politicians siphon it off to bloated bureaucracies that sure as hell don't need it. Maybe it's them we also need to drum out, out of office that is. Let the politicians go live with the NIMBYs. You'll hear the politicians propose a new highway or hospital and the NIMBYs respond, "Not in MY backyard!" And we won't have to be bothered with them, because they'll be so far away from New York, so nobody will care.
Oh how wonderful it is to dream.
Even powerful business leaders want new subway lines, just like the rest of us do. So let's have 'em!
I'm with you
The article is here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/1999-03-11/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-22168.asp
Another daily news article on 2nd Avenue subway
Washington is spending all that money on finishing the Metro Green line and talking about building and Orange Line spur to Dulles, and they're warning New York about building time and disruptions for a subway? Officials in D.C. really are more full of it than anyplace else on the planet.
Uhh... The "washington" in the article is actually the deputy mayor of N.Y.C., Rudy Washington. (Read carefully and you'll see)
You're right. I need to stop reading stories on low-resolution laptops.
'tis okay. It happened to me too.
On my wish list:
Houston Street to Metropolitan Avenue to (at least) Jamaica
- relieves crowding on the E and F and the horrendous traffic on
Metropolitan Avenue
Northern Boulevard to (at least) Flushing - relieves crowding
on the 7 line
Union Turnpike east of Queens Boulevard - hooks up with E and
F and the above Metropolitan Avenue Line
Extend the E and F while we're at it
Extend the 3 and 4 to Howard Beach and JFK
125th Street Line in Manhattan to LaGuardia
Extend the L and 7 and above Houston Street and 125th Street
Lines to New Jersey
10th Avenue Line
And of course 2nd Avenue Line
Just a dream, I know.
More later,
Peter
Not much there for Bedford Park Blvd, or Brooklyn. Things are in bad shape in the Borough of Kings. I don't see how you could have a massive plan and leave Brooklynites dependent on two cracking bridges.
Easy - I live in Queens. :-)
I know what roads in Queens could use a train running
underneath; don't know much about Brooklyn.
Looking a a map, seems that the 2 and 5 can be extended
along Nostrand or Flatbush Avenues, 3 and 4 to Howard
Beach and JFK. My Houston Street/Metropolitan Avenue
idea would serve Williamsburg well.
But there's already more subway in Brooklyn - and there
are 8 subway tunnels/bridges to Brooklyn as opposed to
four for Queens - let us catch up!
I didn't even mention my idea of a subway from JFK up
Rockaway Boulevard to Jamaica, up Main Street to
Flushing, up Ditmars Boulevard to LaGuardia, continuing
on Ditmars to Wards Island and across 110 Street (or 125
street) and connecting with the new 10th Avenue line.
And tunneling under the Hudson of course.
125 street would be good for Metro-North commuters wanting
to get to LaGuardia and JFK. So what the heck - I'm
dreaming, so do both.
This in addition to the airport direct links. Seems to
me that much community opposition to the idea in
southern Queens is due to there being no stops along
the way for southern Queens residents. So give them
a Rockaway Boulevard/Main Street subway.
Ah, if it were only that easy.
Go to Flatbush and see there is a wall there. The station is shaped like a horseshoe. But I guess if the wall was put up then it can be taken down. I also think that the 3 could and should be extended to Queens.(Possibly JFK). But like you said, it is easy to dream......
(8 subway tunnels/bridges in Brooklyn vs. 4 in Queens). I wouldn't count on the bridges for more than a decade or two. The city made the BMT build the 60th St tunnel so Queens wouldn't rely on heavy service on the bridges. Should have done it in Brooklyn too. That leaves 4 tunnels for Queens, and 6 for Brooklyn, but the Cranberry serves Queens also.
And, Queens has two LIRR tunnels, and a proposal for another, which would put Queens ahead 9 to 8, although obviously these are shared with Nassau, Suffolk, and Amtrack. I'm not sure affluent eastern Queens wants subways. The might want the higher cost but faster and more comfortable commuter rail service -- the less well off can bus to the subway. Perhaps you should think in terms of more LIRR lines when the 63rd St opens, and creates capacity. What about that Kissena Corridor?
True about the LIRR - though running a subway from JFK to
LGA and on to uptown would serve South Jamaica, Kew Garden
Hills, Flushing, Corona, Steinway, Astoria, and Harlem -
not all very affluent areas.
Besides, Forest Hills is the most affluent and expensive
area of Queens, in no small part due to the excellent
LIRR *and* express subway service.
Looking forward to the reactivation of the LIRR Rockaway
branch, too. I'm not sure who the opposed "community leaders"
the Queens Chronicle constantly quotes are. Probably a bunch
of useless old biddies. Noise, shmoise. Anything that will
connect a neighborhood to Manhattan quicker can only make
the neighborhood more desirable.
And I live right next to the LIRR tracks between Kew Gardens
and Forest Hills, so I can say that.
Speaking of the LIRR, anyone else think that the solution
to declining ridership on the Long Island City branch
stations would have been to add trains to make a more
reliable service, not close the stations? Of course nobody
was going to use the Glendale station if there were only
two trains a day...
You sound like a young guy, so you may not know this, but Geraldine Ferraro launched her political career by fighting against a proposal to turn the Glendale-LIC branch into a subway. It would have connected to the 63rd St tunnel, and run through to SE Queens. It was thought that the line would attract (outsiders) to move in from both directions. Perhaps she was right. At the time, the subway might have brought in middle-income minorities looking for better housing; today, it might bring a swarm of Yuppies. Along with Staten Island, Glendale, Ridgewood, Maspeth, Middle Village, etc. are the last holdout of Archie Bunker in NYC. You just can't get there.
[Geraldine Ferraro launched her political career by fighting
against a proposal to turn the Glendale-LIC branch into a subway. It would have connected to the 63rd St tunnel, and run through to SE Queens. It was thought that the line would attract (outsiders) to move in from both directions. Perhaps she was right. At the time, the subway might have brought in middle-income minorities looking for better housing; today, it might bring a swarm of Yuppies. Along with Staten Island, Glendale, Ridgewood, Maspeth, Middle Village, etc. are
the last holdout of Archie Bunker in NYC. You just can't get there.]
Yet the ironic part is that most of the Long Island City line runs through industrial or otherwise non-residential areas. Only Richmond Hill (which already has subway service) and a section of Glendale are residential. And those parts of Glendale certainly don't look like an East Coast version of Beverly Hills.
If the subway plan had ever come to pass, my guess is that it would have been a boost to outer parts of Queens but would have had little effect in Glendale etc.
If Glendale doesn't want the subway, just don't put a stop there. With the overcrowding on the E/F, I'm sure an alterative route between Jamaica and LIC would still carry enough passengers to offset the absence of a source of fares in one area.
>>What about that Kissena Corridor?
I don't actually know what that is, although I've seen the park of the same name on maps. Can anyone fill me in?
(Kissena corridor) I'm not sure, but I think there used to be a railroad there. If so, maybe we could put one back with a bike path next to it.
[(Kissena corridor) I'm not sure, but I think there used to be a railroad there. If so, maybe we could put one back with a bike path next to it.]
Indeed there once was a railroad there. It was the Central Branch RR, which ran from Flushing to Babylon. Its route through Queens is now the Kissena Corridor Park and the Kissena Park Golf Course, as well as parts of Cunningham Park. On a Queens street map, notice the unusual alignments of Peck Avenue and Stewart Road as they cross Union Turnpike just to the east of Bell Boulevard. They are a remnant of the Central Branch's right of way. The line itself was abandoned in Queens many decades ago, although a spur into the Creedmore mental hospital (off the LIRR mainline in Floral Park) lasted until ~35 years ago.
Much of the Central Branch's right of way in Long Island remains in use to this day. The LIRR's Hempstead line uses the right of way as far as Garden City. The r-o-w then runs east as a little-used freight line called the Garden City Secondary, almost as far as the Meadowbrook Parkway (by the way, the circus train is now on this line). The r-o-w then cut through what's now Eisenhower Park, then to the north of the Nassau County Money Pit, er, Medical Center into Levittown. Electric lines use the r-o-w through Levittown. Interesting note: the Central Branch (by then part of the LIRR) was used to transport building materials during Levittown's construction in the late 1940s, then abandoned. Finally, the eastern part of the Central Branch, from Bethpage to Babylon, is now part of the LIRR's Montauk line.
I doubt if the Kissena corridor is going to be reclaimed, since most of it is now homes and playgrounds.
Just for fun(but true!)
The past few mornings I have seen a new car parked on my block, plate # JMZ-1239.
To say nothing of (could this be a railfan's plate?) IRT-1904 which I mentioned a while ago.
I doubt if they're vanity plates. JMZ is valid, but the only car bearing the number 1239 which could have ever run out there would have been the R-6, and AFAIK, none of the R-6s were sent to the Eastern Division. Unless, of course, there was an open platform gate car by that number. What do you think, Karl B?
When we moved to New Jersey, we were issued MEG-924 license plates for our car. Nothing special about that, right? Get this: our next door neighbors in South Bend, whose house number was 924, had a daughter just before we left, whom they named Megan. I remember being at her baptism. Talk about coincidence.
[re JMZ 1239]
It could belong to someone who likes the Eastern Division and the Boradway-7th Avenue IRT ...
That's what I was thinking also.
The closest number that I can remember to 1239 would have to be an OP gate car (painted green of course) # 1227 which happened to be one of my favorites. There were a lot of 1200's that ran on the Jamaica Line to 111th St, but there were a lot of missing numbers in the 1200 series too. I'll have to get into the warehouse and see if I can find my number lists.
Talking about unusual plates, I have a neighbor whose license plate begins with AGH. How would you like to drive around with that on the back of your car?
You kept number lists, too?!? Wayne, are you listening to this? You two could compare notes sometime. And to think all I ever did was to write down marker light combinations back in 1984.
Speaking of license plates, how does UGH grab you? Or DUI?
It seems that most people I know who like to walk and use mass transit, to the extent they have cars, have really old/cheap/nerdy cars, as a point of pride, and like to keep them running deep into old age. Do I over-generalize here? Is it just a Brooklyn thing? Or is spending less (or nothing on a car part of the payoff of transit for everyone. I know it is for me.
Why would you buy a good car, when for the most part a subway or bus will take you anywhere you want?
If you don't use it much you don't mind so much that it's old. If you don't use it much it lasts longer since you don't put on many miles.
When my brother in law lived in Manhattan he stored its 20 year old volvo in Brooklyn for $300 per month. ( two trains to get to it) He rarely used it and could have rented a car when he needed one, not to mention the insurance costs.
When he moved out to the prospect park he still never used it but just had to move it around once in a while.
Please pardom my ignorance, but can someone educate me on the difference between these two ?
- I know the Bombardier R-142 was slated for IRT service, but don't know where they plan to put Kawaski's R-142A.
- Are these two similar in design (size, capacity, etc.)
- Also how many of the (test) R-110As are still in service ?
Mr t__:^)
> I know the Bombardier R-142 was slated for IRT service, but don't
> know where they plan to put Kawaski's R-142A.
Also on the IRT.
> Are these two similar in design (size, capacity, etc.)
Yes.
> Also how many of the (test) R-110As are still in service ?
I think all 10 cars are available again.
--Mark
I think all 10 cars are available again.
I believe that statement is true, and there have been various reports that the R110A can be found on both the 2 and the 5, but on the 5 it can't stop at Court Square because of the moving platforms.-Nick
COURT Square?! Don't you mean UNION Square?
There is no Court Sq on the IRT! If you mean Union Sq well all trains make a nice station stop. The No.5 can stop at any station with a gap filler.
Whoops! I did mean Union Sq., sorry for the confusion!
The No.5 can stop at any
station with a gap filler.
I don't know about this, there have been postings that the R110A cannot stop at Union Square.-Nick
It can. At least it did both times I rode the R-110A down Lexington.
Well, there is a CourtHOUSE Square, but I'm sure there is no moving platform there.
R142 and R142a for IRT R143 for IND
Sorry I refuse to say the train hit the passanger, the train had the right to be there.
Thursday morning all Northbound (citybound) Brighton Serivce (D/Q) was halted. D trains were told to stop and stay, Q serivce went to the layup tracks at Brighton Beach (2 Q's in station, 3 trains on the layup). A passanger was struck by a train at Church Ave or 7th Ave depending on which radio report you listened to. Block Transfers were issued at Kings Highway for pax to take the bus (B82) to the F and the F was over crowded.
Now WHY were D trains rerouted from Stillwell over the N line instead of express over the B or even better OVER THE F to relieve the extra crowding from PAX taking buses or walking over to the F. Is the track layout at Stillwell not allow a D from their track to the F line?
Yes, things were screwed up this morning. I walked up to the IRT and Grand Army and saw scores descending to the train, and it was packed.
You're right, why not re-route Brighton Service over the F? The trains would have to reverse, but that is not impossible.
Pehaps because they expect things to be cleared up quickly enough that it would be a waste to re-route. Indeed, by 8:20 the train were running normally again. But if the Manhattan Bridge were closed, would you want to go 15 minutes south and THEN north on your way in?
D trains rerouted over the F don't have to reverse. Send them through CI Yard and let them start service at Ave X & McDonald Ave via he Culver Yard connections. I know the MTA probably doesn't like passengers or revenue trains in the yard like that, but in extreme circumstances it could be done.
--Mark
Good idea, especially since the track from the Yard enters on the Culver's express track, and I assume that any re-routed Brighton would go express. Perhaps it should be standard operating procedure.
When the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge close, the Q could run local from Kings Highway south then up the Culver, and the D could start north of Kings Highway and over the H tracks. The fact that the Q would run express and avoid bottlenecks might cancel out the time lost to back-tracking.
No, they can't do that. From the yard track, you have to cross over the CI bound local track, and this would probably interfere with F service.
I had thought of extending Culver service to Bay Pkway on the west End Line, but that too would have a problem, because of the switch layout north of Stillwell (track 6 becomes D2, and from track 5 you have to switch to D2, and this is before (going north) the switch from D2 to D1, so both directions would be sharing a stretch of track)
Correction: They did do just that-- sent the Manhattan bound D's through the yard and to the Culver middle; on Jan 27 due to a broken rail on the Manhattan Bridge, I just found out in the ERA Bulletin I just got. (The Q only went to Whitehall, and the B to 36th)
I don't know how long they could run it like this, though.
They won't send D exp over the west end because they use the middle track for M putins and relays.
It is possible to send D trains over the F line from STL .
While at Stilwell, the were putting in Q's from the yard of the N side of the terminal when service was restored (8:20ish). I guess with Brighton Beach all full up they sent some Q's to the yard.
The passenger was hit at Seventh Avenue--the police had the end of the platform roped off and TA personnel were scrubbing it down with bleach. Haven't heard if s/he fell or was pushed. It's been a pretty gruesome week in Prospect Heights and the north Slope.
At the hour of the morning that this occurred, there is alot of activity going in and out of Stillwell Avenue,Stillwell Yard and Coney Island Yard. The idea is to get the trains rolling. Keep them in service. It takes a few minutes to make sure the D train is empty at Stillwell Av. Then you have to make the move through Coney Island Yard....ten miles an hour in the yard and five miles an hour on the loop(which it would access from the Delta track, the lead from Stillwell N)then there might be an F or two put ins still leaving the yard by Av X. This takes time.
It makes more sense to leave it in service and run it up Fourth Av.
The main reason is probably one that is much further up the line. If you run the D over the F, it will have to switch from 2 track(northbound local) to 4 track (northbound express) just north of 34th St and 6th Av. This is not something you really want to do during the height of rush. In addition to D service being messed up due to the reroute, you also delay B service at 34th and F service at 34th because of the switching done there. The object is to do as little switching as possible. By running it over the N, there is no extra move done at 36th St and 4th Av(from the B line), and while they might bring the D train into Dekalb instead of using the bypass,it is now on it's origional route with no more added switches.
I can understand doing less switches, it was just that the CROWDS were going to the F line for the D. The B82's were packed with people going 12 blocks to the F.
I know we are also only talking an hour here, but if it had been a fatality, the police would have tied up the line longer. There should have been additonal Service on the F IMHO.
If the only way is to move trains through the yard, maybe some of the Q trains that were sent to the yard when Brighton Beach layups were filled, could have come out on the F tracks at Stillwell. The Q could switch at 47/50st like they sometimes do when F trains are late and they send one through local from West 4th.
Personaly, I would have wanted the D to run Express over the B line, less stops then the N!!
Why weren't there any announcements being made during this. I waited about a half hour - 45 minutes at Newkirk and never heard a single voice. Total silence.
This is frequently the case during delays in service. WHY? There isn't any useful information, just "safety announcements." WHY?
Even when the trains started running, you only knew because the train arrived. Not a word over the PA. WHY???????
Today's Smoke Condition, we were arriving at Prospect Park (after being held a Parkside) and the PA annoucment was still saying all all service was halted.
Since I spent some time at Stillwell Ave waiting for my D train to be rerouted I saw the this Yellow and Black sign and the North(?) end (end facing the Yards) at the N/B tracks.
"Sensitive Rolling Test is Required upon leaving this location"
What does that mean?
I'd guess it has something to do with testing of the brakes???
If you ever notice a train (before leaving a Terminal)does not pull out right away, but the train operator move the train a few feet and see's if the train rolls freely with out a pull back. If the Train Operator has a pull back he may have a brake on in one of his cars.
This only happens at the first stop. this is called a sensitive rolling test because your checking to see (in a sensitive way)if any brakes are on in the train. You don't want the last car of the train dragging down the road by the other 7 or 9 cars
That explains why those R-7/9s on the Canarsie would lurch momentarily just as the train would pull out of 8th Ave. Funny thing is, I never noticed this on the BMT standards.
The test involves taking one point of power ("switching"), then to coast. This portion should be quite smooth. But then most operators will go right to parallel/multiple, and depending on the slack between cars, can give quite a kick. The best "kick" I think is when the leaves Main Street. Go 'birds!
Of course, the NYC subway has a 3 power positions on the controller. Go to the switching position, wait a second for the train to move, then going to series/multiple will usually prevent lurching. BTW: trick question on a train operators test: If they ask you how many positions on the controller, correct answer is 4. That's right. Don't forget "Coast!".
2 Operating positions also(series and multiple).Coast and switching are not Operating positions.Switching position used for short moves only
The brake controller has 7 positions
1- Handle off
2- Emergency
3- Full Service
4- snow brake
5- running release
6- full release
the seventh position being between full service and running release being your service range which has no particular spot on the brake stand.
I think you mean "brake valve'.
It is 6 position. The service range is just that , a range, not a position. Any school car motor instructor will tell you that.
On the R-46 there are eight (8) positions.
1. Handle Off/Lock
2. Emergemcy
3. Full Service
4. Min. Brake
5. Coast
6. Switching
7. Series
8. Parallel
There is no snow brake position on the R-46 master controller.
But there is a switch on the control panel for it. The R44 is similar.
-Hank
Steve (or others):
What does the snow brake position modification actually do?
Are there new trainlines, or is it just the brake valve
self-lapping a specific low straight air pressure?
The snow brake very slightly puts the brake shoe against the wheel. Again, not to cause things like a drag, hot wheels, flat wheels, track fires and the like. The theory is the wheel will scrape the snow off the brake shoe to help the train respond to the motormans call for a brake.
I always understood the theory to be that it would heat the wheels slightly, causeing the ice under them to melt and therefore increase adhesion. Easy to tell when it's on, just sniff for a burning clutch.
-Hank
I actually perfer the Snow brake on the R-46 for operational purposes. On the R-46 there is a switch on the console. When it is in the 'on' position, it energizes a magnet valve which causes a 3-5 Lb. brake to be applied to the wheels. Unlike the usual 2-handle control arrangement, the snow brake on the R-46 is independent of the brake handle setting.
Ok, that's the R46. But on the original ME42B and ME43
equipment, there was no "snow brake" position. It was a
recent mod, which came complete with advisory stickers to
place on the brake stand. So, what I was asking is what
was the mod? Is it simply a detent to put the self-lapping
portion at a certain minimum pressure position?
As I recall, the lurch or jerk wasn't all that great on those R-7/9s when leaving 8th Ave. You'd feel the familiar jerk as power was applied, then the train would just start to move, then another similar jerk. I did notice that almost every Saturday, the same motorman and conductor would be on our train.
The sensitive rolling test is the second of three tests he/she is required to do when boarding a train or anytime the train goes into emergency.
1-The first is the B-2 test to see that you have a good trainline brake. When the train has fully charged, you make three graduated decreases in straight air with your brake valve.
2- Then the sensitive rolling test to see that there is no pullback on the train, that there are no stuck brakes.
3-This last test is done, as you're leaving the station you accelerate your train to 15mph and then take a brake. All you want to do is see that there is a retard in the train, that you have a dynamic brake (which only works above 15 mph).
The dynamic brake is actually the trains motors acting as generators which is a hard thing for it to do, this slows the train down to 15 mph where it fades and then the friction brake (a brake shoe against the wheel) brings the train to a complete stop.
I assume that the 15mph test is done only where the speed limit allows it?
So WHY the signs at Stillwell Ave??
(Thanks for the expert reply)
the Rolling brake test can be done on any stretch of track hence the name "Rolling brake test". This brake test always done in passenger service or the yard where in some places the max speed is 5 mph. Doing the brake test is standard operating procedure and minimally time consuming. Any time a trains brakes are applied in emergency the the rolling brake test is to assure that all brakes have released trainline. Most motormen do the standing, rolling and running brakes tests to make sure no brakes including handbrakes are applied, the deadman operates and that dynamic braking is operational and to make sure air compressors are good unless you want a totally messed up train to make your trip a living hell.
Probably no real reason at that location. It is generally a reminder to take a sensitive rolling test anywhere when you first move a train/cars.
OKAY, SO IT WAS MADE OFFICIAL THAT THERE WOULD BE NO SERVICER OVER THE WILLAMSBURG BRIDGE UNTIL MID OCTOBER, SO OBVIOUSLY THIS WILL DISRUPT SERVICE. WHAT I AM WONDERING IS WILL THERE BE ANY NEED FOR SKIP STOP SERVICE AT THIS TIME (INSTEAD, USE ALL Z TRAINS A ADDITONAL SERVICE TO HELP OUT) WILL THE JAND Z GO AS FAR AS BROADWAY JUNCTION OR MARCY,OR, WILL IT BE A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH? ALSO I AM REALLY WONDERING ABOUT THE M line now my question would be would THE TA ALLOW IT TO GO AS FAR AS MARCY OR WILL IT GO SHUTTLE TO MYRTLE AVE. WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER HALF OF THE M SERVICE WHICH RUNS BETWEEN BAY PARWAY AND ESSEX ST. WILL THERE BE M TRAINS RUNNING OUT OF CONEY ISLAND TO PROVIDE THIS SERVICE AS WELL AS A BACKUP FOR THE B LINE AS WELL? PLEASE LET ME KNOW, THANKS.
This has already been discussed. And please turn off your caps lock.
Well is this more better for you? As for it being discussed I was not aware it was since I am in my classes most of the time and I happen to work. I was just asking since I probably missed it. So please give me a break
http://www.nycsubway.org/commuter/lirr/9159.jpg
This picture's caption reads: M-1 9159 leading a train at Bayside(9/96). That does not look like Bayside Station to me.
With all the confusion this morning, I ended up on an R68 with black flooring with white specks. That's the first time I ever saw anything like it on the subway. I thought it looked good, but then again it appeared to be new. What is the thinking behind the new color scheme? Is this a sign of things to come?
I had seen the same flooring on a R62A on the #1 line. Thought it looked pretty good and should not look as bad as it gets dirty.
R68A's have the black floors, as far as I know no R68 has any black floor.
The black flooring has been around for a while. I get it every so often on the B train. It must be some kind of a test -- I never noted the car numbers, but I'm guessing there's only one train of black-floored R68's.
I've never seen the one on the IRT mentioned by Sid.
I saw one R68 car like this last year, but again I did not get the car #, but I do remember that it was only one car of the train with this scheme,so I'll have to agree and say there is only one black-floored car. I haven't seen a scheme like this on the IRT either.-Nick
There are at least two R68A carsets with black floors:
#5058-5057-5059-5060 - and -
#5122-5121-5123-5124.
Both carsets have black floors.
There are photos of #5057 and #5059 in the R68 section of the Illustrated Subway Car Roster, clearly showing the black floors.
When I find a black-floor car, I make sure I annotate it in my Numbers Book and in the appropriate 1-2-3 workbook.
As for R62s with black floors: at least one exists, I believe: that is #1391, which was damaged by a firebomb.
Wayne
During the time the R-68As were still under warranty, numerous flooring problems developed. The flooring problems were catagorized into 3 classes and Kawasaki methodically repaired the floors. The simplest repairs were around the doorways of most R-68As. The second class of repairs involved the replacement of some sub-floorig panels. There were, 16 cars that required entire floor replacement. The 16 cars are randomly spread around many 4-car units. There are no 4-car units with all new floors. To the best of my knowledge, there are no R-68s or R-62s with this floor which is the same as on some of the R-110B.
I'm not sure what car types/numbers run on the Q line, but I have been on trains fairly frequently (once a week) that have the black floors. This is at around 5pm going south from 47-50th street. I'm not sure, but it looks like the whole train is made up of such cars. They do stand out and seem to hide the crud much better than light colored floors. Also have noted these cars in AM, tho' less often.
Well, as far as I know, the Q is made up almost entirely of Slant R40s, with occasional R68s and even an R32 or two, although I believe the 32s have been transferred to the N. I've never seen a black-floored Slant - they are all beige. I don't doubt your sightings - I will be in town Monday and I'll keep an eye out for unit numbers, and R68s, if any, on the Q.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I ride the Q just about every weekday, and I haven't seen an R-68 in over a year -- not that I want to :-)
David
Yes, it has been at least that long since I have seen either an R68, an R68A or an R32 on the Q line. It is the home of the Slant R40. Seen car #4310 ("The Cowboy Way") or #4208 ("Ghost") lately?
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I have some photos I took while looking through the storm door window of a Manhattan-bound Q of R-32s in October of 1997. The Q is sort of a homecoming for the R-32s; they made their debut on that line in 1964.
Last fall, I saw nothing except slant R-40s on the Q.
IIRC, all of the R-32's that ran on the Q line shortly after they made the car switch with the B in 10/97 are now being used on the 63rd St. Shuttle.
Car 1696 on the Pelham line has that kind of flooring. Also another car on that Pelham line has the same flooring. I haven't seen anything on the No.1 as of yet.
That indicates that #1696 is back in service. I had this unit listed as "revenue inactive", and it is one of only 17 R62A that I have never seen and spotted. (I have been spotting trains and recording car numbers since 1969) Would you know if it is bundled with its mates 1697-8-9-1700? I saw that bunch with #1743 at its head back on January 28. Perhaps something happened to #1696, hence the black floor.
Anyway, I will keep my eyes out for it next time I am near the #6 line. I'm also looking for #1800 as well from the #6.
Wayne
Hold on That was in July when I spoted 1696. I have no Idea if it is in service or not?
Where is he(#1696) hiding? Pelham Yard, maybe? All I have to do is physically see it to include it, even from a distance.
Wayne
This car is in service on the #6 line. I physically saw it in Westchester Yard.
On the R68's it was the replacement of bad flooring (which was actually still under warranty). Why the black scheme was used is a mystery to me.
Black floors hide the dirt.
The black floors, especially in the R68As are visually appealing; they contrast well with the bright-colored seats and with the silver interior walls. IMHO they should have made them all that color.
The eight R68As damaged in the 125th Street flood back in the early 90s - (#5111 was one of these; don't remember the other numbers) - they were repaired and returned to service. I wonder if these cars also got black floors. They were trapped in water up to the bottom of their windows and needed extensive work to their electrical and motor systems. If I remember correctly, they were out of service for a couple of years before finally returning.
Wayne
This morning I took the # 4 to Fordham Road. I got on #1391 on 5 cars and i look down saw the black floor. So the floor look good but i don't know #1395-4-3-2 have black floor.
Remember 1391 and Dec 22, 1993. Firebomb @ Fulton St. 1391 was the car involved in that horrible accident.
Perhaps when the R-62's (and R-68's) go for their GOH, they will all receive the black floors.
What other changes are likely for these cars?
[Perhaps when the R-62's (and R-68's) go for their GOH, they will all receive the black floors.
What other changes are likely for these cars?]
NYC subway cars don't undergo GOH (General OverHaul) anymore. That program was developed to restore subway cars that had been run into the ground (no pun intended) without a great deal of maintenance. Instead, they go through a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Under SMS, components are replaced based on their planned lives.
According to the NYCT 1999 Operating Budget Proposal, 260 R-62A and 425 R-68 cars are scheduled to undergo 12-year SMS this year (perhaps Steve can tell us what this means). In addition, 100 cars from the R-32, R-38, R-42, R-62, and R-68 classes are supposed to receive new floors in the first step of a 1,926-car program. Also, car propulsion systems are to be upgraded on 425 of 1,450 R-62A, R-68, and R-68A cars this year (the upgrade consists of replacing the original Westinghouse controller -- under the car, not in the cab -- with Adtranz E-Cam [electronically-actuated cam control] -- Adtranz bought out Westinghouse a few years ago).
What about some electronic signage?
I dont have a car number but at least one car on the R62 on the 4 has bench seats rather than bucket seats. (they were the three shades of orange used in the bucket seats. One section of seats was in one color but all 3 were used. Such as Dark orange on Cab side, light orange opposite, medium orange on the short seats across from the cabs.)
1586-1591 have the flat bench seats. They were built that way as a test after people started complaining about the narrow bucket seats on the R-62s.
David
[I dont have a car number but at least one car on the R62 on the 4 has bench seats rather than bucket seats. (they were the three shades of orange used in the bucket seats. One section of seats was in one color but all 3 were used. Such as Dark orange on Cab side, light orange opposite, medium orange on the short seats across from the cabs.)]
That wasn't an accident, it was a terrorist attack by an individual trying to blackmail the city.
-Hank
That is true but it was an accident because it was not supposed to go off in the Fulton St station. Under the East River, remember? I am not trying to be funny here!!!!
Simon Billis has asked me to post the following response from London Transport, regarding the use of the 4th rail for current return:
To wit:
"The four rail system was adopted because problems were experienced using three rail.
"In the three rail system the return current is carried by the running rails. The problem was that the running rails are hard to electrically isolate from the iron tube tunnel lining; consequently the return current was carried not just by the running rails, but by the tunnel lining as well. In fact experiments showed that there could be quite large electrical currents in the surrounding subsoil too, which played havoc with telegraph equipment and caused electrolytic corrosion in iron gas pipes, water mains etc.
"In the four rail system both the supply and return current is carried in electrically insulated conductor rails; end of problem. One side effect of this, however, is that the return 'floats' electrically, and is not at earth potential. Depending on what the trains are actually up to this means that the return rail is potentially quite as dangerous as the supply side - and can be at several hundred Volts with respect to earth.
"This is of course true on both sides of the Atlantic; one reason that it was adopted by the Underground is that Board of Trade stipulated that the maximum voltage drop on an earthed return should not exceed 7V. This is a very stringent requirement and could only be met on the
Underground by using an insulated return.
"Well, the sequence of events leading up to electrification is complex, not least because of the close relationship between the Metropolitan and the District Railways, and the intervention of the American financier Charles Tyson Yerkes. On a close(ish) reading of Barker & Robbins I think I can say that the District was first off with experiments in 1898, closely followed by the Metropolitan. Both experiments used four-rail, although the Met.'s setup had both conductor rails outside the running rails. However, the Met was the first with a full-scale public service, which commenced in January 1905, using four-rail as we see it today. The District followed about 6 months later."
Wayne Whitehorne
Simon Billis
So, the reason is clay after all...
Most London soil north of the river is clay -- very easy to bore through, but then it needs something to hold it up, cast iron was the obvious choice.
Today, there are several lines in bored cast iron tunnels with only three rails, such as the Northern City Line into Moorgate, plus the Waterloo and City Line has had three rails at certain points in its career. Were the regulations changed, or is there another solution to their problem?
Max, I have no idea. Perhaps there has been a change. Again I shall try and find out.
What oes anyone think about this idea? Instead of building a new 2 tube tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge, would it be cheaper to add one tube to Montague?
It would be to the North (east) of the Manhattan bound tube, and at the same level. The Manh. bound connection to Nassau would be cut off by the new tube, which would get that connection instead. So now, you could maintain the current throughput with two 30tph capacity tracks in the peak direction.
The N, Q, & R would have the middle track to themselves, peak direction, and the outer tracks would be for Nassau St service, with replacements for the B & D added to M service. (The old loop connection could then be connected to Grand with a new flying junction north of Chambers, to through-route the B & D)
This would allow the current 6 lines to operate and without the Nassau trains delaying the others at the turnout. The issue would be between the tunnel and Atlantic Pacific, but I imagine the 3rd tracking could somehow be extended to that point.
So how is this idea?
One question -- how do the trains get back to southern Brooklyn for their 2nd rush hour run? You have 60 going in, but just 30 going out. Perhaps the G could be hooked up, and 30 trains could return via the crosstown and F express?
Also, trains through the Montigue take forever to get to Midtown. The advantage of the bridge/tunnel setup is you can go to Downtown Brooklyn (120,000 jobs) and Downtown Manhattan (400,000 jobs), or bypass them and go direct to Midtown South, Soho, and Midtown (1,400,000 jobs).
Perhaps the part I like best is adding tracks from Atlantic/Pacific to the tunnel. It takes forever to get from Atlantic/Pacific to the tunnel. If there was a bypass option, merging in after Boro Hall, and new signals, perhaps the Motingue could take a lot more trains, some bypassing, some stopping. The switch before any stations on the Manhattan end already avoids dwell time.
I did have this thought on the subject. If the A/B tracks were hooked up to the Rutgers tunnel (as proposed in the East River Crossing Study) and a link was made from the Nassau loop to Grand Street (as proposed in the Metrolink proposal), then OFF PEAK all trains could run through the tunnels, with all stations served. Trains would run over the bridge just 20 hours per week, and perhaps just one service on each side. The number of trains going over the bridge per week would fall by 75-80 percent. Perhaps the reduction in wear and tear would allow the bridge to continue to be used for the subway, for at least a few decades.
Is there a web site or other realm where I could look over the East River Crossing Study?
The study went deep six, since it recommended spending money (albeit not much) on the less-than-humans of Brooklyn. I only saw a summary compiled by our transportation division.
You can read about the Lower Manhattan Access study on the MTA website, however. It proposes a "high amenity subway" just for suburbanites, so they can get Downtown.
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
>One question -- how do the trains get back to southern Brooklyn for their 2nd rush hour run? You have 60 going in, but just 30 going out.
>Perhaps the G could be hooked up, and 30 trains could return via the crosstown and F express?
Well, I guess it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than nothing, or even the Rutgers connection. Remember in that idea, only one service, the Q uses it because it merges with the F (and forget about any increase service for exp. to Church then), And the West End is still left as a shuttle. (No B or M--only four services going through Dekalb) Under my idea, you still have all 6, though I guess you would only have limited return service. I guess you would have to use those and thin later service out, or id 6th Av is connected to Nassau, send B & D back over the Culver.
The B, D & R are pretty long. How many of them return in time for a 2nd rush hour trip, anyway?
(How many of them return for a separate trip anyway?) My experience is the first half of the rush hour is trains that run from the yards in Coney Island, while the second half of the rush hour consists of trains which arrive from Queens, turn around, and head back to Queens. (I suspect this because if you try to ride the F in the 2nd half from Brooklyn, you're hit with more delays, because your trains are affected by problems on the Queens Blvd line).
Without all the trains getting through to Brooklyn from Queens 6:30 to 8:00, there won't be enough trains in Coney to carry Brooklyn passengers from 8:00 to 9:30.
It would probably be a similar cost. A new tunnel would likely be a wide tube, rather than a single-track tube. As long as you've got the hole dug....
-Hank
Various news services (Reuters) reported that there was a meeting today of business leaders and the MTA to discuss $30 Billion of new plans including the westbound extension of the Flusing line to Giuliani Sports complex, the Second Avenue Subway, and lines to the airports. Is there anything new in it?
Details about that meeting can be found here
Can anyone say what either Giuliani or Pataki has to gain "politically" from pushing/supporting this when they both are about to seek higher office ?
If they had just been re-elected I would think they'ld have more to gain from adding this to their list of accomplishments.
Mr t__:^)
I would like to know on when F express service in Brooklyn will be restored, in addition,I would like to know why was the F express proposal considered twice but was never implementated & since there is surplus money like $379 million dollars, why can't NYCT use this money to restore F express service.
Sincerely,
Michael
the reason is that because the TA refuses to rennovate the lower level of bergen St. which would allow passengers from Bergen St. Carroll St., and smith-9th st. to transfer to an express manhattan Bound F-train. NYC transit tore apart the lower level station walls and lighting, thus leaving a darkened platform with no passenger ammenities.
Because of this, the people who live at these stops would lose direct service to manhattan, therefore they bitterly opposed the plans to restore express service. If NYC transit was serious about restoring express service, all they would have to do is rennovate the lower level at Bergen St.
This of course is not the reason. Firstly, aside from the unusual conditions today (3/12 fire), we would never operate *all* F trains express. I dont know what the designers of the IND were thinking, but perhaps the fact that they didnt even try to run that service until the early 1970's, and then it only lasted a few months, should indicate that this never was feasible. Bergen St was (and is) a rather stupid design. When alternate F's ran express in the mid 70's (after the failure of the all express service), Bergen St riders, who gained nothing from an express, all stood in the stairways to see which level got a train first. Finally, most of the opposition to F express service has come from people around the Carroll St station, not Bergen. In any case, the 1995 plan was to increase dramatically the total number of F's, divide the increased number in two, with 1/2 express and 1/2 local from Church (where they would originate). That plan was nixed by the budget, and the cars that would have run it have gone to other places.
Well, Michael, I have some good news and some bad news
The good news is that it was restored today due to the Bergen St fire. The bad news is that now that reasonable capacity has been restored to the local tracks, the F will return to the local by Saturday and the express tracks will probably be out of service for years until the interlocking is completely rebuilt.
Not that there was an near term chance of this happening--there arent the cars available to support the service that was proposed earlier this decade.
(F express will probably be out of service for years until the interlocking is rebuilt). What, exactly, burned? I only saw problems in the signal room. Were the signals destroyed? The wiring? The tracks? Somehow the news media doesn' think this is important enough to report these sort of details. Its being reported as the equivalent of a fender bender that ties up traffic on the FDR.
I suggest that the TA had better get the F express available before the schedule shut down of both sides of the Manhattan Bridge in 2001, or whenever it is. Otherwise, really awful service will be horribly awful, during a Mayoral election year.
You did write about that in your report, but the schedule we get from NYCDOT is only that there will be off-peak closures of both sides (similar to 1995). Anyway, the future is very fuzzy--everyone is just working like crazy to get things back to normal ASAP for the switches and signals in use right now. I think (tho I dont know) that it was the guts of the machine that burned--not that big a fire physically, but since its 1930's technology, its not like we can just find some spare parts.
So the bridge is not going to switch sides now in 2001? (6th Av close full time, and Bway reopen full time). This is news.
But the next phase of Manhattan Bridge work should provide the means to have F express.
Whether the bridge switches sides, or is fully open or closed part or full time, in all of those cases, the Q can go back to Broadway and be replaced by the V, (and the 63rd St connection scheduled to open at this time too, PLUS the new cars for the L which will shift cars over for this service.) The V could simply be extended to Church, instead of 2nd Av. Perhaps they could store trains in Propspect Park Yard and have one way rush hour service ifthis is stiill stretching it with the cars.
It's a pity they scrapped all the R10 and R30A - they could have used some of these in a pinch, despite their lack of A/C. Even 100 total units would have been a help. I know, yard capacity, lack of parts, costs of maintenance &c &c &c the list goes on and on. Maybe they can pick up the option part of the R143 contract and maybe even order another 100 or so cars down the road...
Wayne
I hope you don't mean use ALL of it there! Share it with others! But seriously even before this Bergen St. fire, many in this thread have asked about F express service. Express service would help those passengers at express stations & south of Church Ave., and only inconvenience those at the other stations. With express service, the connection between the F and BMT Fourth Ave.line would be severed. I think the best use of the express tracks has been discussed previously: connect them to one service on the Brighton Line, and one service only. Otherwise, too much congestion and to prevent problems at Jay St. if something happens north of Jay St. on one of the lines resulting in reroutes. Frankly, don't forget the original IND ended at Church Ave. From there to Manhattan is a rather short distance. The line was overengineered in the first place. The additional track or tracks should have begun at 7th Ave. where the G ideally should have terminated so it could also have connected with the BMT at Fourth Ave.
Looking back in hindsight, if they hadn't torn down the Culver shuttle, they could have reworked the line to be used as a connection from the current F line over to the West End line and from there to Coney Island. That way, the B and F could have run through the Rutgers tunnel, with one of the lines the F running express from Jay to Church and the B running local in that area, which would have solved the problem of Manhattan access at Bergen, Carroll, Smith-9th and Fourth Ave.
As far as the current West End service, the M could be run regular hours over the current route in Brooklyn to Kings Highway, instead of just rush hours.
Too bad this problem didn't come up 30 years ago, when the Culver shuttle was still around.
They would have had to build a mighty flyover for the n/b service at Ditmas Avenue, or face using a complex at-grade crossing, similar to that found at Myrtle Avenue and Broadway in Brooklyn. Grade crossings, while they have their detractors, can be functional if all the signals, switches and whatnot are in order. I don't remember any accidents at either of the two road grade crossings in the NYCT system. However, for purely safety reasons, flyovers, flyunders or the equivalent are always preferable.
Wayne
I was thinking of a flyover from the express track before Ditmas to connect with the Manhattan-bound track, and just a smiple split off from the F local track before Ditmas to the Culver. at the other end, they might have been able to do a fly-under to connect the westbound Culver track to the Coney Island-bound West End track.
But like I said, this thread would have worked better if it had been posted on the Internet back in 1969, when Al Gore invented it.
For lots of grade junctions, and even diamonds, go to Chicago. I cannot think of any flyovers there! They move a lot of trains through those junctions, but they are not moving very fast through them.
Yes, I've seen the crossover at the northwest corner of the Loop - that's quite a sight, watching them maneuver in and out of there at grade. We just have the two: at Broadway/Myrtle on the "J" and "M"
lines, and another north of 135th Street on the "2" and "3" lines. I can not think of any others, if there are, please remind me.
Wayne
One of these days I will post some info on a report I read about and have about subway planning for the city with many provisions for the abandonment and replacement of elevated (due to the theory of decreasing property values with els).
The idea was to run from the Church Av station somehow over to the Sea Beach doing away with the Culver elevated structure.
I've got to dig that report out.
(Connect F from Church to Sea Beach). I hand the same idea! You'd just run a two track line down McDonald, and over on Bay Parkway. the bottom of the Sea Beach is right next to the bottom of the Culver. Making the connection would mean more trains on the line, and F express service. And the money saved by having fewer stations and less track to maintain would (in a world with sensible construction costs) pay for the line.
Ah, dreams.
Believe me Larry, it's not so bad an idea, but someone is always going to lose with a line abandonment.
Like I said, one of these days i'll post up some of these subway long term plans. I just don't seem to have the time right now.
(Someone always loses with an abandonment). The lines are right near each other. Walk a little farther, ride a lot faster. For those who don't want to walk 10 minutes, there is the bus.
Yes, but nobody looks at the big picture. Also, no one really wants to take a bus to the train. (my opinion) I would think riders would want a one seat ride(not including subway to subway transfers).
The easiest plan I see is to just create a new line that runs from Church Ave. up the Culver local, via the 6th Ave. local and through the 63rd st. tunnel to Continental Ave. from ^ AM to 9 PM after the Manhattan Bridge is available for 4 track use. Run the F express from Jay to Church during the hours. Extension of the G to Church will also add extra trains along the local track. Make Bergan St. a local stop, as it's really redundant to have both levels open.
The one and only time I ever took an F train express from Church to Jay St. it shaved off 7 minutes from my ride. Reason enough to do it.
(Just add an extra service on the F)
The same logic could be used to add an extra service on the B, on the N, on the Broadway (which has a 3rd track), on the #4 Jerome Ave, etc. You still end up with the same choice -- more trains and staff to run them, or taking the same number of trains and dividing them between a local and express -- with longer waits. To be fair, before the fire the F was not that crowded in Brooklyn, so extra trains were not really justified. The Brighton is crowded, but you can't really add trains on the BMT, because of the Manhattan Bridge.
So there we are. But if you combine lines, they you could have a local and express with the same number of trains and the same wait. This is theoretically possible in southern Brooklyn, where the lines were built as competitors and duplicate each other, but because of the way they were space, you'd have to build to keep everyone within a reasonable walk.
No, I was saying an entirely new line should be created and run along with the F to Church Ave. in Brooklyn. The Rutger St. tunnel can handle a lot more capacity than it does right now. (well, before the fire)
I read your submessege on Peter Cafiero, are there plans to restore 6th Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service & on the bottom of the letter, it said something about Mr. Wilsn & Mr. Gawkowski.
I would like to know if you can post there messegers on subtalk to see what they had to say & if you happen to have both there e-mail address, please post that on subtalk.
Thanks,
John
It was the standard form letter they usually send when you make suggestions:
"This is in response...; we appreciate our customers concerns; your letter has been forwarded...for review and consideration; Thank you", etc. There have been times they've said more, but I guess there was nothing else they could say to this. Ever since they tried it from '68-76, they felt it wasn't worth it. I was just saying that I hope they really would consider it, because things are a little different than in the 70's.
There were no e-mail adresses in the letter, just the regular mail address and Customer Service phone #.
There is a neighborhood map in the fare control area of Metropolitan Ave. (M line). On it they have a notation to the effect: "Certain services will be modified Dec. ??, 1988." Yes 1988!!!!!!!! I have a son in fifth grade who was born that year!!!!!!! Slightly outdated????????
I was just wondering, what's the legal implications of scanning in an old NYCT map, and posting it on the site?
I would think that it WOULDN'T be a copyright infringement, because they are public documents, and there is no charge to veiw them. Additionally, they are about 15-20 years old, and may be otherwise unavailable.
-Hank
One year later and the Adler Map (found on this site) still has the "G" running to 179th Street in the evenings. The map is terrific but inaccurate. It should be updated or removed.
We don't profess to have the official info. This site is run by volunteers and we don't necessarily have time to update things on a timely manner. Perhaps rather than complaining you could volunteer some of your time.
If I deleted everything on the site that might have a slight error, SubTalk would be gone in an instant....
-Dave
Hello Dave -
Well, it is "subnite.gif" which is in error. I have fixed most of it, will get back to it shortly. Shall I send the corrected version back to you? You're right - there's quite a lot of information to manage out here!
Wayne
Mike Adler sent me corrected versions of all the "By Time" maps which I have put up this afternoon.
-Dave
Those files have an amazing amount of detail in them - Mike did a superb job with all of them (as usual). No harm in keeping my copy as a wallpaper, however :o)
Just thought I'd volunteer, as usual...
Wayne
A route map that was outdated as soon as it was installed is the one recently placed at the bottom of the escalators at the Exchange Place PATH station. It shows the JFK Express still in operation and going to 21st St-Queensbridge.
Hm. I've never seen a subway route map on PATH property. PATH still has signs up at some stations that show connections to Erie-Lackawanna, Conrail, Jersey Central trains...
Yesterday I noticed that there's one of those old 1976 subway maps posted in the 57th/6th station mezzanine. Any reason it's still there? It made my trip more interesting, but it also confused the heck out of some tourists using it to plan a trip downtown. (There's a recent version of The Map on the other side of the same display case, but you wouldn't know that if you approached from the 1976 side.)
If it's a wall map, there may have been a current map pasted over it which didn't last. I've seen outdated maps at mezzanines myself, but nothing that old.
One of my fustrations, well actually two, is that as soon as I find a mag on trolleys & traction it goes under. The second fustration is that everyone that i've seen, since the 60s, seems to deal with events from 1910 thru 1935 ... I wasn't even a gleam in my fathers eye then.
Anyhow I found another one & a old friend:
- Scale Model Traction & Trolleys Quarterly. They're up to issue #51 so I guess they've been around a while. Only problem is that it comes out of Milwaukee & think there's such a thing as "New York City Trolleys". I bought the two back issues on this, so it will be interesting to see what it covers. Sample issue $4.85
- Old friend ... Trolley Talk is back or still in business, bi-monthly. In case you don't know, they're out of Louisville. Sample issue $2.65
Anyone who wants to know more, just send e-mail to me off-line.
Mr t__:^)
Magazines are obsolete for narrow interests. The cost of printing and mailing, and the risk of not being able to cover fixed costs, is just too great unless you have mass circulation. The Web really is amazing for things like this.
Kind of makes me glad all the book and magazine printing has moved out of the city, but all the writers, graphic artists and advertizing people are still here. Having an activity move out of NYC is a leading indicator of it disappering altoghter.
The East Penn Traction Club 1999 Trolley Meet is coming up at the end of April, and is being held in Southern, NJ. There I am sure you will find lots of magazines and the scoop on which ones are still active, as well as meet other modellers, not all of which are modelling 1910 - 1935. You should check it out.
--Mark
Mark,
Two things interest me about this:
1. "spouse free " with paid admittance OR
2. It's close enough to Atl City (East of Philly) I could drop her off on my way to event.
P.S. Includes a Trolley (PCC) Fan Trip Sunday :-)
Thanks for the post !
Mr t__:^)
Received my sample issue of Trolley Talk last night :-)
- In it is an adv for yet another mag ... "Traction Prototypes & Models" out of Canton, Ohio, not to be confused with Traction & Models out of Indanopolis, that went under.
- The cover has a Shrink-Wrap trolley, actually the whole car is painted in an advertisment for War Bonds.
- Two articles inside I liked a lot:
1. Constr. & 1998 opening of Portland's MAX "Westside" 33 mile LRV line using Bombardier & Siemens 92' Artriculated cars.
2. Before & after paint job on SEPTA's Red Arrow 1982 Kawasaki trolleys, i.e. they moved the strip to the top of the car. Also they talk about these cars being displaced by new equip, AND that they may end up on the Route 15 that was "bus-substituted" in 1992.
Now this in MY kind of trolley magazine ... I think I'll subscribe !
Mr t__:^)
Hello Thurston -
As I see that you're reminiscing, I guess you remember Electiclines, which was on the scene around the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. I thought that it was a quality magazine that provided interesting current and historical topics for the electric railfan.
Secondly, may I recommend to anyone who is interested in electric traction, both past and present, in the Midwest may want to look into a receiving a copy of "First & Fastest", sponsored by the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society. The address for the magazine is:
PO Box 368, River Grove, IL 60171-0368
"First & Fastest" is published four (4) times a year (March 15, June 15, September 15 & December 15). A yearly membership fee of $20 includes the four issues. The publication is always at least 32 and usually 40 pages packed with history on the three Chicago interurban companies, present CTA, South Shore and Metra Electric, along with operating museums in the Midwest.
Windy City Jim K, thanks for the input !
Question, why do so many of the trolly/trackion groups seem to have "Shore" in their name, e.g. Seashore, Shoreline, Shore Line ????
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know if/when Trolley Lines ran in communities on Long Island. I would suspect that they were few and far between. However, I have an inkling that some of the more ocean beach-related (Southshore)areas may have had trolley lines (ie, Long Beach, Seaford or Hewlett).
Anyone with info on this subject, feel free to post.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone have details on the fire from last night (3/11/1999). As of 8:"30 this am F still express from Jay to Church and G Local to Church (and to 71)skipping Bergen. From what I heard, it started in the relay room in the tower and the lower level really got cooked.
I worked WTC on the A and even A was held for a while!
Well all those screaming for express service to return to the Culiver Line now has it. As of this AM Rush, F Service is express Jay to Church in both direction.
PA Announcements are stating UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE!!
Might try the F on the way home today... Got to go to Blockbuster anyway...
I too will try the F on the way home. I'll let you know.
Took the R this morning.
When I got on this morning, the G and the F were running on the local track TO Manhattan, but the F was running express FROM Manhattan. I walked to 7th Avenue expecting an express ride, but was disappointed.
Also, the trains were packed. I didn't expect crowding -- same number of people, same number of trains, right? But I got it. Ended up waiting for the G. Steve, did the TA cut the number of Fs to come up the cars for extended G service? If not, where did they come from?
The cops and TA employees were on the inbound platform. If, as a prior post said, the lower level was cooked, perhaps that's why the F can't run express inbound. The damage might be confined to the Manhattan bound express tracks, and the station concourse. Bergen Street station was closed.
If that pattern lasts for a while -- local inbound, express outbound -- that's a good deal for me. On the way home, I can ride the F to 7th Avenue, take a G if its there, and otherwise walk or look for the B75 bus. Nothing lost, potentially something gained. On the way in, the F express wouldn't help me if I were waiting at Prospect Park, so it doesn't work as well, although I can walk to 7th Avenue rather than wait for the G (thus losing the transfer option if its convenient). It's a bad deal all around for those at at Smith 9th and Carrol, however, let along those at Bergen.
I too was on the F this morning but wass disappointed when the train was making local stops to 4 ave than it went express to Jay St. I did see the Coney Island bound F trains go express and the G making local stops. However as for the lower level of the Bergen Street Station, who can hear the construction workers screaming about directions, the train before heading towards the staion was very slow, I hope they can figure out beeter patterns to solve this crisis. Second I felt sorry for those people waiting for a G train at Smith - 9 Sts. Accoridng to one of the conductor you had to stay on the F and get off at Jay Stthen take the A to get to Hoyt St. But what I heard was the G was stopping at Smith and 9 sts plus there was the option of taken the shuttle bus that made all stops between Smith St - Jay St. I can tell you this much this mornig was very confusing.
The reason for the crowding today was that much of the signal system was knocked out greatly reducing capacity. That was also the reason to operate limited capacity G service on the local and limited F on the express. As of tonite, the F returns to the local both ways and the G is cut back to Hoyt. (shuttle from Hoyt to Bedford). Bergen should reopen by Sunday nite. Normal service on the G will take a number of weeks to restore.
WHAT HAPPENED:
There was a fire in the Bergen St. Station. Due to the fire (electrical), the Bergen Street interlocking plant was severely damaged. Service was restored around 5 AM.
Temporary Service
The repairs to the interlocking will take approximately eight (8) weeks. During this time, switches are 'blocked and clamped' in position. The F train will run normal in both directions froom Stillwell Ave to Church Ave and 179th St. to Jay St. Between Jay St. and Church Ave. the F train will run via the express tracks, bypassing the Bergen Street station. The G train will be extended to Church Ave. It will run via the local tracks, bypassing Bergen Street and continuing via its' normal route. There will be Bus service provided between Carroll St. and Jay Street. During this morning rush hour, headways on the F were increased by about 50%, ditto for the G. I don't know if the increased headway will last for the entire 8 weeks.
Updates as they are available.
When you say headways were increased by 50 percent, do you mean that the number of trains was cut in half? If so, that would explain the crowding. I hope that won't last past the weekend.
Are half the Queens Fs turning and 2nd Avenue then?
If the TA has the buses, it might consider ramping up the B75 to a five minute headway, and having it run down Prospect Avenue to pick up Ft Hamilton Parkway passengers. Too bad the 9th Street bridge is STILL out of action.
Unfortunate for the TA, to be sure, but some folks who have never seen lower Bergen will now have the chance. Somehow I doubt this will give them any incentive to renovate the lower level in anticipation of future improved services, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Damn, I wish those R-46s had railfan windows now :)
--Mark
It depends. If they get the headways on the F back to normal and find out ridership on the Culver line is going up over the next two months, they may put a permanent rush hour F express at least back into consideration.
I was coming back from Flushing yesterday and changed at 74th to the Queens Blvd. The F and station at 945am was SRO and there were platform conductors. I took the G which came first and was very empty. It filled after at Queens Plaza. The sign simply said "CROSSTOWN" until we passed Metropolitan/ Grand at which Conductor announced last stop as Bedford/Nostrand which then appeared on the signs. We arrive at Bedford Nostrand and there are scores of platforms employees. Doors opened on the right side and then left side. The only confusion was PA sdaid shuttle on Smith 9th bound track and it arrived on Queens Bound track-all tramped from the track to the other through the train on the middle. This shuttle ran Express to Hoyt via wrong railing on the Queens Bound track- the following shuttle would run on the Brooklyn track and make local stops. AT Hoyt more platform help plus Stations had help in the mezz. Likewise Jay Street. There were also plenty of signs at all stations mentioned. I stopped at 370 Jay Street to pick up a poster and then went home. I did not get to Bergen so I do not know that side of the story.
We sure could have used a platform conductor or two Monday at 5 Ave-53 Street- maybe the PC could have gotten #3667's doors to close properly , thereby avoiding having to discharge all of us onto an already crowded platform. A rather unsettling situation, with people standing up to 6 deep.
Wayne
I was just checking the latest news on cnn.com. Under the "Nature" category, the lead story is "Iceland's Parliament OKs Commercial Whaling." The third story below it reads "'Free Willy' Star Enjoying the Good Life in Iceland."
I'll bet Willy's tasty ...
I heard in the transit industry of a fire in the tower at Bergen Street on the IND. I WOULD LIKE ANY ALL INFORMATION IN REGARDS TO THIS FIRE.
PLEASE HELP!!!
Newsradio88 is not reporting a seat of the pants MTA estimate that the service diversion could last two months. Among other things, that would mean F service is screwed up at the same time that Willie B is closed.
Now all we need is for them to discover more cracks on the Manhattan Bridge and we'll all be swimming.
Not all of us think the F running express from CHurch Ave to Jay Street and G trains running local to and from Church Ave is a "screw up".
Maybe they'll leave the service like that after many people come to like it, the voices of Bergen St residents notwithstanding?
--Mark
This happend in the summer of 1997, where the F was running express and G is running local. If the lower part of Bergen st was available this would have been one of the best Express services for the F and G.
The reason why is that passengers for 4 Ave can get the G local upstairs (Bergen Street) southbound trains and 7 Av Norhtbound trains.
Also the G during rush hours must have more trains running because it is horrible seeing at least three F's for every one G that passes at 4 Ave, like this morning, it should run for 5 - 8 minutes.
Question: Where does the middle track go (you see it on the Express track after 4 ave station close to the first anchorage of the bridge?
And what was or is its purpose?
The middle track you see at the bridge just north of 4th Avenue is a spur track, usually used for relaying work trains, or stasing work trains. It's a dead end.
Thanks....................
(Maybe they'll leave it like that).
Perhaps if they turn half the F trains at Church as well, so those on the southern part of the line get the 10 minute headway instead of those at Fort Hamilton, Prospect Park, 4th Ave, Smith 9th, Carrol, and Bergen. Otherwise, it's a service cut for us no matter how you slice it, with no offsetting benefit at all.
As was discussed in a prior post, maybe if they added trains and ran 8 local Fs to Church and 8 express Fs to Stillwell, along with 6 G's to Church, people would buy it. But that would take more trains, which the TA doesn't have. It might lure some Brighton Line riders and cut crowding on that line, however.
But a 10 mintue wait for a local to Hoyt (while others get a five minute wait for an express to Jay) won't go down as a fair deal.
(But a 10 mintue wait for a local to Hoyt (while others get a five minute wait for an express to Jay) won't go down as a fair deal.)
If you think so, also think of how a person who depends on one of those crosstown stops must feel-(10 minutes without the option of taking something else!)
It seems things are going to get even worse, if the MTA start to realize that they must have an emergency plan in case of these incedents. For today's incedent they should renovate that station as quickly as possible or find a way to at least make the lower section passenger friendly. This station does not have to be closed if the MTA start to focus on the problem. Bergen Street is a major station for many F and G riders. I think they should supply more service on the G as an alternative plan if the B75 is not going to be used as an alternative. As for the Fort Hamilton Pky problem: The B67, B75, or a shuttle bus is crucial need. If you were riding the D or Q yesterday morning, you would have realize that when service was suspended on the Brighton Line, everyone diverted to the B41 bus creating more delays and overcrowding. This should change, in case of anything the MTA should have emergency plans for passengers to find other routes or diversions to get things steady plus should have a stand - by fleet for buses at least 1/2 hour after the incedent.
[This should change, in case of anything the MTA should have emergency plans for passengers to find other routes or diversions to get things steady plus should have a stand - by fleet for buses at least 1/2 hour after the incedent.]
And, of course, the MTA knows where and when each and every emergency is going to take place, and how long each and every situation will last when it happens.
Some things, you just have to deal with when and as they happen.
David
Right on target.
In the NY Daily News Saturday March 13, page 4, is an article of the Bergen Street Fire.
The station will be closed until further notice. The MTA is providing free around the clock shuttle bus service from Bergen St. to Jay St, where riders can take the A, C and F trains, and to Carroll St, where they can take the F and G trains.
After the good folks of Subtalk read the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
General Order 3496-99 governing service changes due to the Bergen St. fire is now in effect until further notice and is in effect all times. G service from Queens will operate to Bedford/Nostrand middle and return to Queens. There will be a special shuttle running 24/7 on track E1 (southbound track facing Hoyt St) between Bedford/Nostrand and Hoyt St. in both directions. In addition, an additional shuttle will be running on track E2 (northbound track FROM Hoyt St.) between Bedford Nostrand and Hoyt St. in both directions from 6 AM to 9 PM seven days a week. Between 9 PM & 6 AM this train will lay up at Bedford/Nostrand. F trains will operate on the local track once more between Bergen St. & Church Ave. An Absolute Block (one train at a time allowed in a specified area) will be in effect in the following specified areas: Coney Island bound from signal B1 782 (leaving Jay St.) to B1 732 (leaving Carroll St). Manhattan bound: from signal B2 739 (leaving Carroll St.) to home signal B2 789 (leaving end of Jay St.) Under this arrangement, fewer F trains can be operated in Brooklyn than normal.
Also in the NY Post Saturday March 13, page 2, is an article about the Bergen Street Fire and also tells everyone which trains to avoid.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park blvd.
This is very bad news for G riders, especially with the Williamsburg Bridge going down. Now they have to change four times to get anywhere.
The loss of train service on the F is also very bad. At least on Friday some sabbath observers, and perhaps some others, left work early. Monday is going to be hell.
Perhaps I should plan on walking to/from the IRT and Grand Army for the forseeable future. I could also walk to the D/Q at Prospect Park or 7th Avenue, but that is already as bad as the F is expected to be.
I guess they figured that running the F express might prompt customer demand for a renewal/continuation of that service and they certainly didn't want to do anything to please the riding public, right? :-)
I was in the city on Sunday so I rode the F (not having seen the above posts) in the hope of going through the lower level of Bergen Street but of course no luck. There was also some kind of additional problem with the A train causing it to run Manhattan-bound on the F line - was this fire-related too or something else?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
More likely, the MTA decided they'd get too many complaints from local passengers at Bergen, Smith 9th and Fourth Ave. if they had only the G to work with, so they decided to pin the switch for the F local and let G riders do a triple switch (F to Jay, A to Hoyt, then shuttle to Bedford-Nostrand to the G) to use their line.
Pretty soon, the MTA is just going to put handcars on the G and let people power themselves along the line. Just don't go past Court Square...
(MTA thought they'd get too many complaints with just the G)
Despite my living on Prospect Park, I think I would have been better off with switch frozen the other way. Rather than just eight F trains per hour, I could have had 6 Gs and 4 Fs which turn around at Church, with 8 Fs going express. More capacity total, less crowding.
But it comes down to the number of cars. Extending the G might have required more trains than today. Cutting the G, and the number of F trains, requires fewer. Besides, local and express might be harder to manage without the signals.
The A line was on the F due to track work and station work at Broadway Nassau. It was all weekend long. (SOURCE:Official bulletin)
Thanks, guess I missed that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a great idea shouldn't everyone who travels anywhere have some alternate travel plans in the event a emergency occurs?
You heard correctly - see my previous posting
Does anyone know where i can buy some Old Amtrak?metro-north Timetables....ANy info will be appreciated
I do have a couple of Amtrak N.E. Corridor timetables from the mid
1980's (1983+), back when they had a picture of an AEM7 on the front.
As of now, I really don't want to part with them, but if you want, I
could try to make some copies to send you. I used to have a lot of
them at one time, but I may have thrown them out. If I come across
any while I'm doing my spring cleaning, I will be more than happy to
send you one.
-Timothy
I have a collection of Amtrak Northeast corridor and some Metro North timetables. Tell me what you're looking for. If I have it, and you are willing to pay the postage, I can part with some of them.
You can reply to me at: jim_kram@yahoo.com
And of course the IRT, not wanting to be outdone...this morning at approximatly 0415, the interlocking machine for Westchester Yard went very haywire and there were exceptional delays. The first put in which runs lite to 125 to make the 0510 125-Pelham, didn't leave the yard until about an hour later )515. All trains had to be flagged out, signal department had to manually activate switches in the yard, stop arms had to be hooked down....because of these extensive delays leaving the yard, a #2 and a #5 were rerouted to Pelham. In addition, there was no Pelham express sevice because all the work trains were stacked from Westchester Square to Cypress Av.
Not even close to the caliber of the Bergen Street fire but definatly not a good day for Signal Department.
Has anybody notice that the 4,5,6 in the last past two has had problems from switch track to broken track?
Now the F and G are also in the same predictament?
The J M Z trains are going deep water, so has the Broadway connection on the Manhattan Bridge and very soon it will effect the 6 Ave line.\
What's next the Rockaway A will no longer be able to cross over the Bridge because of bad maitence
The 63 St tunnel is still in trouble is that also being used for the LIRR? When the tunnel is completed, you still have to deal with the Queens Blvd link that is hurting the E F R?
Where is that 2 AVE LINE?
Have we ever learned from the 2 & 3 Reconstruction? I guess not?
Where is the MTA
Where is Guliani?
Where is my train?
Somewhere in the original IRT charter it is writen:
"At no time shall any train operating within 500 Miles from the Geographic Center of New York City provide slower, less comfortable or less reliable service than the Lexington Avenue Local"
At the time when the IRT was organized there were a number of Union disputes over which line got to be the Worst.
You talk about less reliable. I can Think of worst Lines. During the Rush Hour you have a 4 min headway. Trains are back to back and crowded. Why do you think the train fills up and stays on the train ahead. Because you people can't keep your hands off the Doors. The more you hold the doors the more the train gets packed then when you move you have a train ahead with a bunch of DISORDLY'S HOLDING DOORS!
51 ST is the worst. But hey if you don't want to move the train can sit there all day and I collect overtime.
I really hate 51 st and Lex Av because too many people. They are bunch of morons don't obey or respect on 51 st.
Other major bottlenecks: Grand Central, 47-50 Street, 59th-Columbus Circle, Fulton Street complex (esp.B'way-Nassau), 34th St-6 Avenue,
that's just a few of them.
We need more trains! Any train that is in reasonably good operating condition should be retained, not scrapped. Yes, buy the R142, R142A,
and the R143. But scrap only the cars in the worst shape (A Div) and don't scrap ANYTHING (B Div). Again, we need more rolling stock.
Wayne
I'll second that notion. I think what Wayne is really trying to say is keep as many Redbirds as possible, except for those suffering from terminal body rot.
And I wouldn't even think about retiring any of the current B division 60-footers.
Chris: Take the conductors test to get your foot in the door. Then take other promotional exams. Work yourself through the ranks. Maybe then you will be less critical.
Many posts re: Bergen fire, but still many questions... Took the R in this morning. Anyone have any suggestions for making it home in one piece? I usually take A/C to Jay; then F to Prospect Park/15th St.
Howdy, neighbor (no both ends). You might try the 2/3 to Grand Army Plaza, and a healthy walk across the Park. I've been doing that a lot for the enjoyment of it anyway. If they are still running half the trains, that's about the best you can do.
If they are running the full number of trains, but with the F express, you can board at Jay St and zip to 7th Avenue, and walk from there. That's the key question. Perhaps someone knows the evening rush plans. I'd bet decisions are being made on the fly.
If you want one fare that also includes transfers Take the B75 at Jay St. I used to do that when I attended at Bishop Ford Hish School
Just take your F train as usual to 7th Avenue-Park Slope, then transfer to the G for one stop. That should do the trick.
Wayne
Would it be a good idea to allow Corportations to "sponsor" stations. If they renovated it and maintained it to MTA specs, they would get full advertising rights for as long as they keep things in good condition. This way maybe a NIKE or a COCA COLA would sponsor a station and compete (though not in the traditional sense) by offering air conditioning, bathrooms, etc. Thoughts, comments, go.
Gregory "N-Train" Vines
(Sponsor a station). That would certainly work in the Manhattan Central Business District. In fact, if they ever build the 2nd Avenue subway, I wouldn't be surprised if corporations wouldn't cover the entire cost of construction, as well as maintenence. The riders are the perfect market. They are, or will soon be, affluent, but they're young and have not yet decided which brand they like. In exchange, you'd have to give them the sole right to advertize on the station billboards.
I'm all for it, and for leasing space for telecom lines.
The only problem would be if a company stopped fulfilling its obligations, but you couldn't remove the ads because 1) the gave money to the Governor or 2) they threaten to move out of the city.
The problem (or at least one I think of) is that the advertisers will want to take over certain busy or "well-placed" stations at the expense of letting the outlying stations fall apart. I don't see Nike sponsoring "Avenue H" on the Brighton Line (although it is scenic out there..) if they could have the Times Square N & R and Wall Street on the 4,5 for instance.
-Dave
How is station advertising space allocated today? Do advertisers pay a flat rate for an ad and the TA decides where to put it, or do they pay a specific price for a specific location, whereby the "traffic count" comes into play in determining the rate? (I would have to assume the latter, but one never knows.)
A related question: how is it allocated and priced in the subway cars? Does an advertiser pay more for a car that is used all day than for one used only in rush hour? And are some advertisers being suckered into paying for ads in the "cannibalized" cars that haven't been declared "revenue inactive"?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(How is it bid). I'm not sure, but I believe TDI (or whoever wins the bid) receives a contract for the entire subway system (and, separately, for the bus shelters).
You know, they privitized the operation of the airport in London, with the idea that the private sector would run it better. It didn't. What it did do was figure out a way to turn the airport into a commercial center. Given the opportunity, I'd be you'd see more and better commerical activity down below under a contract arragement. For example, at "Times Square brought to you by Merril Lynch" there would be a kiosk where you could invest. At Lincoln Center, there would be a record store. Etc.
In exchange for these opportunities, private companies would maintain and upgrade the stations. BIDS could also be involved.
[You know, they privitized the operation of the airport in London, with the idea that the private sector would run it better. It didn't. What it did do was figure out a way to turn the airport into a commercial center. Given the opportunity, I'd be you'd see more and better commerical activity down below under a contract arragement. For example, at "Times Square brought to you by Merril Lynch" there would be a kiosk where you could invest. At Lincoln Center, there would be a
record store. Etc.]
Stores and other businesses in airports can work out well because people tend to spend a reasonably long length of time in airports. People changing planes usually have enough time to look in a few shops if the locations are convenient - rarely do they have to run from one gate to the next without a moment to spare. Subway stations are a different matter. Most riders don't stay any longer in their origin stations than it takes to catch the next train, and they usually leave the destination stations right away. That would seem to make commerce a more dubious matter.
has anyone considered that privitizing would be a for profit company would operate the subway and bus system hence the $1.50 would zoom to possibly 7 maybe 8 dollars for a ride. The IRT and BMT were private companies that couldn't make a PROFIT at the fares which they forced to charge which was a nickel at the time. Does anyone think that $1.50 is generating any profit? i think not...
This is a question that needs serious study. The IRT couldn't make a profit with a 5 cent fare, no. The BMT made a very minimal profit. But if they had been allowed to raise the fares to 10 cents, they would have been made profits easily.
Has the general rate of inflation decreased the value of money more than fifteen-fold in the years since unification in 1940? Certainly inflation has been significant, but has it been that large? Is $1.50 today really worth less than a dime in 1940? I doubt it. If not, and if it was possible to run subways profitably for a dime in 1940 (which it was, the companies just never got a chance to do it), then it should be profitable to run them for $1.50 today.
And yet today's $1.50 fare, we are told, pays only for 50% of the costs of subway operation. Operation, the percentage would be less if recovering the costs of (MTA) construction was factored in.
(Is a dime in 1950 $1.50 today?). A dime in 1940 is about $1.10 today.
Its also not that simple. Labor intensive services have inflated in cost a lot more than manufactured goods, because manufacturing is continually getting more efficient through automation, etc. Also, manufacturing is exportable to low wage countries. Inflation of the price of consumer electronics and clothing, as one example, is quite low. On the other hand, some things are inherantly labor intensive. This is why education and health care costs consistently go up faster than inflation.
Operating a transit system is fairly labor intensive. However, unlike education, it is not so inherantly so - automation can reduce the number of people needed. I would imagine there are less trackworkers now because (I hope!) they no longer tamp ballast by hand, for instance. But I don't see station cleaning, for instance, becoming automated any time soon.
(Goods inflation is lower than services). You're right, in general. But service inflation in some categories is caused by their workers getting better off relative ot the rest of us. That's certainly true of medical care and higher education. Moreover, other similar transport and utility businesses have increased productivity, as has the TA (lately).
I don't think anyone in the MTA is talking about "privatizing" the subway system. That would mean a firm would first have to BUY the whole plant ... tracks, building, rolling stock, signal system, etc. Plus the TWU has a clause in their contract that insures that they'll still be operating the equipment.
There have been a few cities that have turned over the "operation" of the system to a private company ... Phoenix comes to mind, as does the new line being built in NJ and of course NYC-DOT does it. The key is how much of the supervision retains with the transit authority. If you're going to save the city money, less is better, i.e. a lot of folks in the TA & DOT still help the the DOT privates. The Phoenix "operator" has very few folks helping them, and from what I've read, that's the goal in NJ.
The other key is whether or not the operatior is doing it for profit. If you're doing it for profit you're motivated to inovate & change things to ensure you make money. That's where the authority & public has to keep a sharp eye peeled to ensure that service and safety (equip maint) isn't effected.
All this said I think privatizing could be a good thing. Particulary if several firms each did a piece of the TA's system, i.e. who can provide the best service from Brooblyn IRT, BMT, IND. When there's a breakdown on the IND the BMT & IRT put on extra service in a way to try & show the IND customers how good their service is.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think anyone's talking about selling the physical plant outright. What is more likely is that the maintenance duties are "sold" in return for some favor, like advertising rights or tax breaks. I don't think we want to be returning to the good/bad old days of competing systems. The same sort of situation exists with the gypsy vans- they only operate on the busy routes. I don't think anyone will be advocating for profit bus operations- half the routes in the city will be curtailed or shut down. Clearly that's not in the best interest of the public. Or is it?
I agree that it's unlikely that the MTA is considering selling the whole ball of wax to anyone.
But what would be so bad about going back to the good/bad old days of competion between the lines ... IF ... the State DOT of some much smaller portion of the MTA madated the level of service (lines/frequency) and let the operator come up with inovative ways of doing it at a profit. Yes I know the first place they'ld go would be after the union staff. But I think the TWU is strong enough to protect it's members ... heck we haven't had a good strike in a while.
And yes I have seen that most of the treads on this line were about adv in the subways, but I don't have anything to contribute about that.
Mr t__:^)
> But I think the TWU is strong enough to protect it's members ...
Well if we're changing the whole operating procedure anyway, why should the Union be protected? Most business/industries do not operate with a union. (Of course, most businesses operate without the extreme antagonism that seems to exist between the union and the supervision). I'd like to see how the system works without it.
And while we're at it, without the civil service hiring practices too. There is no way the Transit "operating company" can expect to get the best people for a job if they make them wait 1-2-3 years between taking the CSE and getting called for an interview. When I heard that was standard, I was amazed. No business in the private sector operates like that. Good candidates don't need to wait for a job. I'm not an economist/sociologist but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that *in general*, CSE positions do not attract the best applicants.
Am I off base on this? I don't mean to insult anyone who has gone the civil service route but it seems to me that the hiring system as it exists is in dire need of overhaul.
I agree and Disagree. I agree that you shouldn't wait 3 Years to get a job in transit but if you eliminate Civil Service that takes away some job security. After a year they just can't fire you they have to Demote you instead. Ofcause I seen fellow workers do stuff that they should be fired for but wheren't.
I wouldn't eliminate the Union. That will cause all kinds of strike and Slowdowns. Also there we need the Union. How else is going to keep an Eye on Management. Ofcause the Union get a free ride of New hired workers on there first year beause I don't think they can really do much for you AND they have nerve to have a 100 Doller fee for new members. But thats on hold. There trying to do a Plublic service campain to show how hard NYCT workers work. Its 60$ out of our checks. We still have to vote on it.
Well I'm sure there are benefits to the union but as an outsider who works in an industry with no unions and no job security (hire at will/fire at will/quit at will) your point about people being demoted instead of being fired is moot-- in the business world, if you should be fired, trust me, you're fired. A privatized transit operation's business model would probably not include much job security.
-Dave
[A privatized transit operation's business model would probably not
include much job security.]
Nor should it. Frankly there are far too many terrible token clerks and conductors. These people make a decent wage for what they do, perhaps if the whole operation were run like a business they would be forced to shape up. McDonalds pays its employees next to nothing but service is generally good. I'd bet that today's transit employees are being paid much more (adjusted) than those of 50 or more years ago. If unions mean safer working conditions and better wages, I'm all for them, if they mean lazy workers stay on the payrolls, common sense demands that they go.
Gregory Vines
[... why should the Union be protected?
Most business/industries do not operate with a union ...
I'd like to see how the system works without it.]
I've been on both sides of the fence & believe that unions are necessary to keep mngt honest, e.g. sweat shops, child hiring, low wages, etc. These abuses are mostly a thing of the past, BUT the captains of industry have found new ways to make ridiculous amounts of money ... but I'm getting off the thread.
- The TWU has language in their contracts that protects them should the "business" get sold. This acts to discourage a possible buyer, but that's what the "owners" agreeded to.
- Most non-union business owners wouldn't be so nice to their employees if there were no unions around. The owners, by & large, don't give a damm for their staff. I've been around long enough to see how quickly they fire long term folks if it suits them ... can you say Grumman ... IBM ... mybell. You have to look over your shoulder a lot more in big companies these days ... I'm digressing again.
- Employment practices ... I agree, its a dumb way to do it. When I worked for Pan Am, they had TWU, you could hire a "qualified" guy/gail right off the street. They paid extra for special skills, so not just seniorty got you the best paying jobs. The TWU created ways for senior folks to get those skills, but you could grab a Avionics guy right out of the Air Force. So, I don't understand why the TA doesn't want to be able to hire an experienced transit guy/gail who has just come in from out of town. At this firm I've seen talented folks cleaning buses on midnights just to get in the door. I've also seen no skills types getting big bucks for jobs they can't do. But I won't lay the blame on the TWU. Mngt looks the other way, so who's fault is it ? Granted years ago unions were too strong, but I don't think that's the case at the TA today. Mngt seems more interested in making rules then turning around or firing the bad employee.
- But then with all this said the trains & buses seem to work reasonabally well, e.g. cleaness, on-time preformance, break downs ?
Could it be better ... sure. Would privatizing it improve it ... sure and would it cost the taxpayers less ...oh yea !
Mr t__:^)
I would imagine that some smaller companies would "adopt-a-station" because if they were allowed to sell their merchandise, they would be profitable. Even in some of the less used stations, there is significant foot traffic at times.
I'm absolutely in favor of private corporate funding of the construction of the second avenue line, in exchange for 50 year exclusive advertising rights or something to that effect. Heck, if McDonalds will keep all the E-trains spotless, they would get my support in installing flat screen tv monitors that only aired their commercials.
Gregory "N-Train" Vines
"A related question: .....And are some advertisers being suckered into paying for ads in the "cannibalized" cars that haven't been declared "revenue inactive"? "
I think your question is a good one but you are making assumptions that may be incorrect.
Assumption #1: The cost of the ads are based on the size of the fleet including the out of service cars. Perhaps the rate is flat or bvased on the average # of cars in service every day. If this were not the case, every time a train went out of service, the advertisers would demand a refund.
Assumption #2 The ads are installed on the trains (and stations) by the advertising company. If ads are placed in 'canabalized' cars, it's at the discretion of the Ad Companies own employees. That's why scrap cars end up with current ads. However,
keep in mind that there are nearly 6,000 revenue cars and less than 1/2 of 1% can be considered canabalized at the present time.
Thanks for the added info. I wasn't making any assumptions, just trying to understand how it all worked. As someone pointed out in another response, there is an advertising company that has a contract for the system - which I wasn't aware of when I asked my original questions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Only willing to take over the well placed stations). Perhaps if the private sector was maintaining the "well placed" stations, the TA could shift resources to maintaining the "less well placed" stations.
It's already happening here in Boston. "State St." on the Blue Line is now "State/Citizen's Bank."
Eye don't know that I would like to have to get off at the "coke" station :-(
Seriously, Larry makes some good points.
Mr t__:^)
I for one am absolutely sick of everything getting a corporate name. Ads are fine, and I hope the TA is maximizing its ad revenue effectively. Whole stations "wrapped" in an ad like a bus? Great, more revenue for transit. Getting off at Lite Beer station (they would demand that conductors NOT use the geographical name) would make me retch.
I think you are right about an eventual backlash against corporate names, especially when they change every few years. Unfortunately, like the lotto, any revenue source which does not involve taxes is going to be sucked up these days.
Larry From "MTA Gets Your There" House
Just to add to the F/G and #6 Westchester Yard (4 and 5 I guess too). There was a "Smoke Condition" at Grand Street at around 7:45 am. Two D trains were diverted to the Montague tunnel. One I know for a fact discharged at Whitehall on the center track. My D was held for 5 minutes at Parkside.
My D, shut off blowers and went through, there was someone on the tracks (signaling by the T/O) who yelled back "it was by the stairs". Which I assume is one of the emergancy exit stairs.
When we get Broadway/Laff there is an extensive crowd, I mean packed on the platform. No F or any express had been through in awhile.
So today's problems crossed Division lines, fingers crossed for the ride home.
On a very funny episode of "The Simpsons", Homer and the family travel to NYC so Homer can retrieve their lost car.
During the epsiode, Marge and the kids rode the 'A'(I recorded the episode and played the scene in slo-mo).
Though on the outisde it looks like an R-10, the inside has all the features of your standard IRTredbird.
Just pointing it out.
Amtrak has posted its ACELA press release.
According to the Washington Post (www.washingtonpost.com) WMATA is experiencing electronic problems with the automatic train control system. The article also said WMATA expects to operate trains manually for the next month (effective 3/10/99) and to expect delays and more stops between stations. I rode in the last car this morning, but yesterday afternoon my Red line train was not being operated manually. I couple of problems were cited in trains were stopped for no apparent reason and another in which a train accelerated to 45 MPH in a area where the MAS was 15 MPH. Gosh I miss my NYCT subway!
When I was out there 4 months ago, a Red Line train came out of Automatic control. We stopped fast but I don't know if it was BIE. The operator called on the radio and then proceded slow on manual. My only experience with Auto Train control gone bad.
About ten years ago (1988 or 1989) an incident similar to the one you are describing also happened while I was on a southbound Red Line Breda train as it approached Van Ness-UDC. Nothing terrible happened, mind you, just some jangled nerves. The operator got the situation under control very quickly.
Is this happening to the Rohrs or is it just a Breda problem or is it a general ATC problem?
Wayne
On Thursday and Friday I rode Breda trains and the operators were using the ATC. The article I read stated that riders should expect delays as trains would be operated manually system-wide. I'll see tomorrow morning.
Wayne
I have heard that elaborate plans were made for subways over the lower deck of the George Washington Bridge to Ft. Lee and beyond. Any plans of this? Any work or construction actually done on NY side? any visible evidence today? Where were projected lines to go?
The tracks were to go on what is now the lower level of the GWB--2 tks in the center. I've seen a cross section somewhere a long time ago. I'm not sure if the "space" in the center of the lower level is a theoretical "preservation" of this row or not. I've heard that the 174th St yard (center tracks at 168th St) were intended to connect to the Bridge, tho I've never actually seen it layed out.
Whether or not the space between the two lower level roadways on the GWB is wide enough for two B-division tracks, it dead-ends on the Jersey side while the two roadways pass through the cliffs of the Palisades in two separate tunnels. At least I assume there is still plenty of solid rock between those two yellow-tile-lined tunnels.
But what I wonder about more is how the political arrangements would have worked. Did the NYC Board of Transportation negotiate with local governments in New Jersey, with Bergen County, or with the State of NJ? Who would have legally been in charge of operations in NJ? Were any agreements actually reached, or was it just preliminary exploration that never got anywhere? Was a premium fare going to be charged - collected on board perhaps?
Prior to the days when they constructed that huge open ditch that we call the Cross Bronx Expressway there were two vehicular tunnels running accross Manhattan from the GWB to the Harlem River Speedway.
I believe that one ran under 178 St and the other under 179 St. I think that these tunnels are still intact but sealed off. Would anyone have info about them? Thanks.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
I knew those tunnels well, I used to go to day camp in New Jersey, and every day (during the summer) the bus would go through that tunnel under 179th st. When we emerged into the light on the GWB we would all sing "Rise and Shine".
It looks like the tunnel under 179th at least is still there, and is used for some kind of cables or pipes. Electrical conduits, perhaps?
I don't know about its twin under 178th St.
As in the morning, the F and G trains were running half as frequently as usual. This is something they didn't tell you on the radio. As a result, the F train I caught was packed and broiling hot. It absolutely crawled from Jay to 7th Avenue. I felt like I was going to pass out. Get ready for some sick passenger delays on top of everything else.
I didn't see any sign of mass destruction on the lower level -- no burn marks, no nothing. Perhaps all the damage is in the control room and related wiring.
Unlike this morning, when Fs were running local inbound at least as far as 4th Avenue, the F trains were running express in both directions at 7th Avenue. It was 12 mintues before another southbound F arrived. It was 19 mintues before a third southbound F, and a local G, arrived. In that time, two northbound Fs (ten minutes apart) and one northbound G passed.
The half-service is clearly more of a problem than G only service on the F. If this continues, they might as well close Carrol, Smith 9th, 4th Avenue, Prospect Park, and Fort Hamilton, and tell everyone to take the bus. Maybe they could divert all available (and some unavailable) buses to the B75.
Otherwise, I hope they at least photocopy some G schedules so we'll at least know when they are coming.
Fortunately, I will be working in the field here in Brooklyn on Monday. Home more trains are running by Tuesday.
The news showed the fire damage. It was just the control panel. The fire didn't spread beyond that room, so you won't see smoke anywhere else.
(Just the control room burned). Talk about an achilles heel! The TA has fully restored service in days after subway crashes and floods to the tunnel roof, but this will screw things up for months.
Does the TA have fire suppression systems in these rooms that are installed in rooms with lots of electronics? I'm thinking of what used to be Halon systems, but those are no longer legal (really bad for the ozone layer) so they now use nitrogen systems that work the same way as an auto airbag. Instead of pouring water in with sprinklers, which might not help and might hurt, the system floods the room with nitrogen, depriving the fire of oxygen.
Anyone know if the TA uses these systems?
My trip, the normal F I get at Queens Plaza at 4:07ish didn't come until 4:20ish. At Jay Street conductor was annoucing Bergan as next stop and platform PA was annoucing 7th Ave.
Talk about confusion.
Closeup and start moving when conductor corrected himself, boy did people get mad.
Lower level crawl though Bergan St. When we got to Church a G train was sitting all closed up on the Manhattan Bound Local track. I assume F's were going around on the express, we passed an inbound F on the climb to Ditmas and it was switching to express.
Overall 20min or so added to the trip and a lot of confused people. Have to take the F this Saturday Afternoon, wonder what will happen.
A debate broke out today in Planningland. Perhaps someone here can settle it.
Is the MTA building a lower-level under its Queens Blvd line to 63rd St tunnel subway connection, for the LIRR? Someone seemed to think that the MTA was planning ahead, and building those parts of the LIRR link that would lie below the subway now, so it won't have to start over again later.
Since Sunnyside Yard runs almost up to Northern Blvd, if a lower level is being built from Northern Boulevard to the 63rd St tunnel the Queens side of the LIRR connection would be almost done. If a lower level was not being built at the same time as the subway connection, the LIRR portion would have to be built under the subway portion while the subway was operating.
Did the MTA plan ahead?
The tunnel was built with two levels from Fifth Ave to 41 Ave. The current construction in LIC extends the lower level to Northern Blvd. The subway turns left at this point and ramps up to join the existing line.
Whatever you think of the TA, the Feds wouldnt let that happen, since they paid for part of both levels. The current construction extends the "LIRR" level to the point where it clears the new route (along wit h a TA "bellmouth" that could go to Sunnyside or whereever. This was all done and paid for long before there was even a study for LIRR east side access.
Similarly, LIRR will have to extend the TA bellmouth under northern blvd. and to a point where the two can separate (TBD in preliminary eng.)
The MTA did plan ahead. The LIRR lower level does exist, and was extended slightly as part of the connection at 29th Street in Astoria. Previously, the subway tunnel only went to 41st ave and 29th street, and with the connection to queens blvd, the subway moved forwards and then curved to the left. The LIRR was extended staright forwards. All that remians to be built is a small section from Northern Blvd to Sunnyside yards, and the MTA purchased the building above this section, so building the connection should be no big deal. Connecting the 63rd street LIRR to Metro North anfd Grand Central will be a little more complex.
Nobody should ask if the MTA planned ahead. All they do is shuffle paper around! There are proposals for anything and everything around for expansion for all MTA agencies. The only problem, those who appropriate the money didn't come up with the bucks and probably never will.
Since the tunnel is built, how about this for new service. Build a temporary LIRR terminal under the 21st St station -- just two platforms on the side or in the center, depending on the configuration. Run some LIRR trains to 21st St, where riders can transfer for the trip through the 63rd St tunnel and down 6th Avenue.
Now, they would be using some capacity that rightly belongs to Queens, but some of those LIRR riders are from Queens. So if you were going to run, say, 20 locals with the 30 expresses, you run 30 locals instead. A good excuse to buy more B division cars, and maybe you could sneak a few for Brooklyn through with the support of Long Island pols.
This would also further expand the expectation that East Side Access WILL HAPPEN.
The store is now open for business (as of Thursday 3/11/99).
While the merchandise is basically the same the store is larger than the first store and definetly better than the carts they were using.
There is also an exhibit area.
The hours are : Weekdays 8AM - to 8 PM
Saturday 10AM - 4 PM
The store is located in between the Station Masters office and the Discovery Channel store.
The Official GRAND OPENING is scheduled for Tuesday March 23, 1999
between 5PM - 8PM.
With all that happened this morning was just a matter of time. It looks like lots of thing gone wrong. Trains going BIE over the switches at Parkchestor. AC Power outoages from Pelham to Hunts Point. Witch all seems to happen after the New Westchester Master tower was built witch controls the No.6 Line from Pelham Bay Park to 138 St - 3 AVE. Witch means Pelham, Parkchestor, And Hunts Point Towers can be eliminated. Ofcause if you hit any AUTO or Home signal it will relay to the Tower so they will know that you hit a signal. I wouldn't be supprised if we see more of these Delays. But hopefully the bugs will be fixed.
Also one more note. Most of the work unsupriseinly was done be outside contractors and Transit workers have to fix there mess ups.
I was seriously wondering if you are making false allegations about NYCT fixing the contractors problems. See my other postings. I will check with Safetran Systems on Monday with the engineer who worked on that project.
Don't blame the contractor if you don't have the facts from the inside.
You say you are surprised that the work was done by an outside contractor. NYCT always contracted signal work since 1904. This is standard for doing business in the past and will continue to be. Alstom (former GRS), Union Switch & Signal and Safetran Systems are the big and most experiences players. Did you know that all the equipment is to NYCT standards including the non-vital microprocessor used for route selection? The processor must be Modicom and no one else is acceptable. NYCT is a tough property to do business with and the acceptance of equipment is extremely tough. Did you know that it took 8 years to get the US & S M-3 switch machine accepted by NYCT?
DONE BE QUICK TO BLAME THE CONTRACTOR.
I said I'm not suprised by Contracters they do all the Major Track work.
You were talking about signal problems and not trackwork. One has nothing to do with the other.
what a price to pay for new technology? My T/O class given a tour of Westchester Master when we were at the yard a couple of weeks ago and the setup looked pretty spiffy. Now you can really say big brother is watching, alarms will sound if a red automatic is keyed-by... of course the master plan seems to eliminate most of if not already obsolete towers in approach to the new command center. What we were told is Parkchester/Hunt Point towers are closed and Westchester Master operates the yard and mainline Pelham Bay Park to 138th 3rd av.
Welcome aboard to the IRT from one IRT T/O to another. If you have any qestions feel free to email me. Right now i'm on the No.1 line 5 days.
Safetran Systems did the signaling on Pelham with L.K. Comstock as the prime contractor. The alarms you speak of are for a train violating or keying-by a red automatic signal. When the train violates a red automatic them the track occupancy light on both the tower and maintainers panel with flash red. Additional protection was built into the home relays. Cycle checking of both the home and distance train stops are checked in the home relay circuit. This is done to prevent rear end collisions when a downstream stop is held down with hold down hook or frozen. I believe these circuit changes are excellent.
not to mention all the timers added from Pelham Bay Park to 138th 3rd ave of most sincerely WD too!
This has been an ongoing problem.
There are times when during PM rush the Parkchester bound trains have to run express because the switches at Parkchester are not working (that means the Pelham bound trains run local).
As a transit buff I can understand the problem. As a customer it really gets me ticked off.
I wonder will they ever get the situation resolved and how long it would take.
The R143s will have many modern features that _should_ make them run better, cheaper, and longer than equipment of 80 years ago. Metrocard has updated the fare collection system enormously.
Are power and signalling systems being updated with the same speed? As compared to other transit systems and railroads (yes, it is hard to campare the subway system to any system anywhere...) are the New York subways behind, average, or advanced in modernizing power and signal/control systems?
How many of these "master towers" have been built?
One more question (at least for now): In interlocking systems, must all "vital controls" still be relays, or have microprocessors snuck their way in? It seems that there are millions of "vital" uses of microprocessors in the world, is there any proof that relays are still more reliable?
David, the 'witch' that you need to use is 'which.' Unless you're implying your opinions of certain dispatchers :)
-Hank
Thanks for the currection I don't now why I made that mistake
I would like to know what are your plans when full Manhattan Bridge rail service is restore in 2001.
Sincerely,
John
It's not going to fully reopen that year. See Peter's response to Larry in "F express" thread below. He says both sides will be open part time. This is news to me, as it was always assumed that it would switch sides (6th Av close, Bway open) in the next phase. Then, it would be like '86-88, except for a V extending through the 63rd St connection, instead of a shuttle from 57th or 21st to Grand.
Full bridge service won't be until '03 at the earliest. There's a long way to go till then.
I read in Saturday's New York Times & I don't like one plan at all. I think that you & NYCT staff should use this plan instead, the plan is.
1)Operate Manhattan bound F trains express between Jay St & Church Av stopping at 7th Av, passengers from 15th St & Ft. Hamilton Pkwy that want to go to Manhattan on the F should take the G train(extended to Church Av) to 7th Av & transfer to the Manhattan bound F trains. F train passengers south of Church Av that want local stations between Church Av & Carroll St should transfer to the G train at either Church Av or at 7th Av. Passengers who ride the F trains going to Manhattan at 4th Av, Smith 9th Sts & Carroll St should take G trains to Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts & transfer to the Manhattan bound A & C trains, then take Manhattan bound A or C trains to Jay St for F trains or to West 4th St for all 6th Av service. Since there are alot of Carroll Gardens residents that go to Lower Manhattan or Greenwich Village rather than MIdtown would have the easier connection by taking the G train at Carroll St to Hoyt/Schermerhorn St & transferring to the Manhattan bound A & C trains to Lower Manhattan & Greenwich Village.
2)Operate Coney Island bound F trains express between Jay St & Church Av stopping at 7th Av. Passengers on the F train coming from Manhattan & want to go to 15th St & Ft. Hamilton Pkwy should take F trains to 7th Av & transfer to the G trains(extended to Church Av). Coming from Manhattan on the F train that want to go to Carroll St, Smith 9th Sts & 4th Av should get off at Jay St & transfer to the Queens bound A & C trains one stop to Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts & transfer to the G trains for Carroll St, Smith 9th Sts & 4th Av. If you are coming from Lower Manhattan & even West 4th St on the A & C trains that want to go to Carroll St, Smith 9th Sts & 4th Av should stay on the A & C trains to Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts & transfer to the G trains for those three stops instead of transferring to the F trains at Jay St since the Coney Island bound F trains will bypass those three stops.
For Bergen St from the F train, riders can transfer between the F trains & the Shuttle bus or the B65 & B75 buses at Jay St & the shuttle bus will continue on to Hoyt/Schermerhorn St where riders can transfer between the G train & the Shuttle bus to Bergen St.
I think that this is a better plan until the Bergen St Station & interlockings are finished. I think that the G trains running into 2 services Bedford/Nostrand to Queens & from Bedford/Nostrand to Hoyt/Schermerhorn St & terminating there is a BIG & I mean & BIG mistake & F train riders on the local tracks near Bergen St will even slow up service even more with overcrowing trains etc. I think it would be best to operate all F trains express between Jay ST & Church Av & let the G trains be extended to Church Av to displaced F train riders & regular G train riders to relieve overcrowing on the F train & so G train riders would not have to make double transfer connections.
Please reconsider this plan & talk to your staff about this & see if it can be done right away, don't mess up G train riders on the whole line.
Sincerely,
Mike
Both express are out of service. Apparently, the relay room is down there with the wiring and cables lead up to the tower on the upper level.
{I read in Saturday's New York Times & I don't like one plan at all. I think that you & NYCT staff should use this plan instead, the plan is. }
Make note of the disclaimer at the top of the index page. Thos board has no affiliation with the Transit Authority, although there are several TA employees that read and post to this board, I don't believe anyu of them have a say in long-term planning and operations.
-Hank
Does anyone know how B.I.D.s (Business Improvement Districts) were used to finance the West Side subways? Where can I find the detailed information on this? I am doing research on the feasibility of the second Avenue Subway. Would appreciate any info on financing.
Thanks.
BIDs were not used for the west side subways; they didn't exist when they were built. What we are discussing is "adopt a station." No private business could cover the cost of the subway tunnels and trains.
My idea is this: the only way Americans invest in the future is "forced savings", like payroll deductions you can't spend because you don't see them, and mortgage payments you have to make.
I would replace the expiring New York City personal income tax surcharge for cops with one for subway improvements. I would enact a similar surcharge on the commuter tax for suburbanites, and use it for LIRR/Metro North improvements -- perhaps another NJT tunnel as well if New Jersey stops ripping us off through the Port Authority. The city and suburb money doesn't mix, so the suburbs can't rip us off.
Concurrently, I'd cut state income taxes by an equivalent amount. City residents and suburb to city commuters would be no worse off than before, and those who live and work in the suburbs or upstate would get a tax cut.
And what would the state spend less on, to make up for the tax cut? If you've read my posts before, you know the answer.
Thanks for the updating of my Substations #21 Page. All should enjoy.
Yesterday my school was leaving to Lehman College for sports. The schools bus company could not pick us up today so we decided to take the the 4 train to Bedford. We were lucky since we were one stop from Burnside (The trains were running express from Burnside to Mosholu Parkway) So we missed a Manhattan Bound train so we decided to go and wait. So we waited for 30 minutes and no train came. What was wrong? I though that when there is one train at a terminal and another train enters the other train was supposed to leave. Well two trains passed and no train! What went wrong with the four line?
There was a sick passenger at Bedford Park Boulevard on the Manhattan Bound 4, causing all kinds of delays.
-Constantine
Last night while waiting for a downtown #1 at 168th street, a mixed consist of 5 lead redbirds and 5 R-62's all bearing #6 signage passed through and headed downtown. Does anyone have any thoughts as to where these trains were coming from and where they were headed?
mb
They were probably coming back from the Spa (a.k.a. The 207th Street Shoppe) after having their saunas and facials. :o)
Wayne
A question Ive always had about the IRT/PATH systems; I know the old H&M built their system pretty close to Interborough standards,BUT could a PA unit comfortably fit on the IRT? And vice versa-could a train of Redbirds run on the Newark-World Trade Line (or Hoboken to anywhere..)?? Just curious....
a PATH car is 48 1/2" long and IRT width. It seems that PATH cars might run on the IRT but not vice-versa
Weren't my beloved Class K PATH cars built in the same shape as our Redbirds? They sure LOOK similar.
Wayne
I always wondered why the K-class cars weren't *exactly* like the redbirds, or at least the R22's which St. Louis was building around the same time...
The Class K's(or MP-52's) were probably the most comfortable rapid transit cars ever built with those thick plush seats. They were built for the PATH/PRR Joint Service and had to met ICC Regulations. Another plus was the air-conditioning of which the PRR had much experience while the NYCTA was still oppossed to it.
Regards,RedbirdR33
Old timers tell me that the "K" class was built to PRR's specs; H&M didn't have much input as to design.
More recently, the PA's Rail Planning Dept. (laugh) is said to have rejected a modified R-62 design in favor of its own PA-4. The results are endured by PATH's customers every day.
Yes, I can sympathize. The PA-4 has hardly any seats at all. I guess it was built for standees only. However, I happen to think that the PA-4 looks better than the boxy R62. Aesthetics, however is NOT everything.
I still miss the K Cars. Maybe a museum will pick one of the few remaining units up and restore it to its former glory (#1243, #1244, #1246 etc. surviving as work motors)
Wayne
> The PA-4 has hardly any seats at all.
It doesn't really matter when the car is at 110% capacity anyway. I haven't had a seat on a PATH train in who knows how long.
-Dave
Dave: PATH loading can't be the same on all four lines. Maybe it would make sense to put the PA-4's with the three doors on the heaviest line while the cars with two doors could go to the lines having a more point to point service. I realize that this is an imperfect solution but right now the equiptment seems to be assigned willy-nilly.
Best Wishes,Larry
> PATH loading can't be the same on all four lines.
Ride any line heading into the city at 8:20 am. You'll see the crush loads I am speaking of. People at Grove and Newport consistently have to skip trains on the NWK->WTC and JSQ->33rd Line because they are too crowded to get on. I think offpeak is probably equally distributed as well at this point. Last year (1997), ridership was way up on PATH and I think we'll hear the same for 1998 once they release the numbers.
> Maybe it would make sense to put the PA-4's with the three doors
> on the heaviest line
That seems like an interesting thing to try; use all the PA-4's to make up 12 8-car trains for WTC-NWK service. Of course, that's just being selfish. During rush hour all the lines are seriously overcrowded, equally. :)
Hopefully the Pa-5's will continue the 3-door layout.
-Dave
Time to bring some K Cars out of mothballs! :o)
Wayne
The PA-4 with its three offset doors per side is a crowd-swallower which, if you've ridden the PATH during rush hour, is a must. The PA1,2,3 cars suffer from people unwilling to stand in the middle or especially the ends whereas the PA-4 doesn't have as much of that going on...
Yes. They do handle the crowds well. The PA 1-2-3's were built in an era when passenger loads were nowhere near what they are today. Remember the transverse seats at the car ends? Removing those when they were rebuilt reduced seating by about 8 per car. Very unpopular at the time, but the right move considering today's passenger counts.
Yes. They do handle the crowds well. The PA 1-2-3's were built in an era when passenger loads were nowhere near what they are today. Remember the transverse seats at the car ends? Removing those when they were rebuilt reduced seating by about 8 per car. Very unpopular at the time, but the right move considering today's passenger counts.
Are other dimensions compatible, such as:
1) Vertical distance from rails to platform level;
2) Position of third rail, both vertically and horizontally;
3) Position and height of "stop arms" at signals?
Any idea on which curve(s) the three-foot difference between the IRT and PATH cars would make a difference (is 48 1/2 feet the longest a PATH car has ever been)?
Most likely (this is a guess on my part) w. of Christopher Street (especially that nasty little "S" curve) and north of 9th Street. It would be tough modifying a Yerkes-style tube for car clearance purposes, I would think. Maybe Rob Morel or Simon Billis (well, he's stateside now, I believe), could think of places in the LU where tubes were modified for different stock. Come to think of it, if I manage to hook up with Simon tomorrow (that is, if the snow doesn't knock out the LIRR Babylon Branch), I will ask him meself.
Wayne
According to an H&M Roster in the June 64 issue of Headlights the Class E(401-436) and Class J (501-520) cars were 51'3 1/2. Class K (1230-1249) and PRR Class MP 52 (1200-1229) were also 51' 3 1/2". There also were two baggage cars(B-2,B-3) which were used in work service and they were 50'7" long.
Regards,Larry
Just dug my PATH spec sheet out of the files; PA 1-2-3-4 are all listed as 51'-3" long at the couplers. They're 11'-8 7/16" high, and 9'-2 3/4" wide at the belt rail.
Hope this helps....
Sounds like if the third rails are compatable, the PATH and IRT could mix their systems easily. Now all that's left to worry about are the NIMBYs, the PATH-MTA antipathy, the PRR regulations, etc...
A historical note here is that the H&M was built by William McAdoo in 1904, who was "The" railway engineer of the time, which was when the IRT & BMT had a pre Dual Contract stranglehold on rapid transit in the City. It may have been thought that the H&M trains could run anywhere in the NYC Subway system at the time. Of course, that did not come to pass.
Possibly, the engineering difficulties of building the LIRR approach to Penn Station and the 6th Ave route of the H&M past 34th St may have brought an earlier demise to the 6th Ave El (An IRT/Mellon property). The issue of the H&M clearences became another problem with the inception of the Independent Subway (IND), with it's clearances close to the BMT system as a rebuff to the IRT/Mellon system, which resulted in the elimination the IRT Els from Manhattan Island, and sadly no connection to the H&M Interurban/state line.
I notice that there are 2 about 10 cars or more from the No. 5 witch are R 26/28/29. They been there for at least about 2 weeks. Are they getting parts or getting ready for the scarp Yard?
probably these cars are ready for the scrap heap and what ever remaining parts that are operable will be used for the ones that can still run.
Main shop work perhaps since those cars are there frequently.
true that
Hi all,
As I was completing the "Time based" maps... I realized I looked at a bit outdated map, since I don't have the most current "The Map" I need to know if the following:
1) S (63rd St. Shuttle) 21st-QB to ??? 57th or ?? Is it 24 hour/7 day operation to 57th or what?
2) Is the 6, 7 & J still running midday peak express services?
will be back in an hour to check the response...making sloppy joes burgers..hehe
Thanks in advance,
Michael
1) The 63rd St. "S" runs to 34th St. Mon-Fri rush hours and midday (two trains, passing each other at 57th St.) and to 57th St. at other times (one train).
2) No midday express service on the #6 or #7. The J does run express middays from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Ave. in the peak direction, which changes at about 12 noon, as well as skipping Bowery station in both directions. At least that is what the posted signs and maps say.
The #7 just re-started mid-day express service.
David: Please check your E-mail for items that I said I would send to you.
Regards,Larry
Hi,
I don't seem to have any email from you today or recently but then since you didn't post your email address here maybe I am just not seeing it. You don't need to post here to remind me to check my email, I read that more frequently than SubTalk but sometimes I can't correlate email addresses with Subtalk posters' handles :-)
-Dave
David: I don't seem to be having much luck with my e-mail today as your the second person I e-mailed at 7pm Sat and has not yet received anything. The items I promised will be posted tomorrow on Sunday,sorry about the delay.
Best Wishes,Larry
Karl: Please check your e-mail for response to your query.
Regards,Larry
Larry RedbirdR33, As of 9:05 PM EST no Email. I will keep checking. Thanks in advance for your help.Karl B.
Karl: I e-mailed you at 7 PM and again at 11PM.If you don't get these by tomorrow(Sun) let me know and I'll respond over sub-talk. I guess I'm doing something wrong with my e-mail but I don't know what.
Best Wishes,Larry
The Los Angeles Times today reported (see http://www.latimes.com/excite/990313/t000022808.html)
that the long awaited 4.6-mile $$$$ Red Line extension will open 90 days from now. Maybe, just maybe, New York's Second Avenue Subway might really be a possibility after all. You never know.
It we could build the 2nd Avenue Subway for 1 1/2 times the cost of the Red Line per mile, high as it was, we could do it. But the MTA is estimating $1 billion per mile.
Just saw a news item yesterday, the scheduled opening of the Red Line extension is scheduled now to be June 12, 1999.
Wayne, I was driving past the UPS depot on Foster Ave. the other day and noticed train tracks running across the street just past E. 105 and before Bank Street. What is/was this trackage? Was it a former spur from the old Bay Ridge Line, or was it related to the Canarise L line trackage? (I noticed this track ends up running alongside the southbound L track for about 2 or 3 blocks between warehouse facilities and the NYCT L train right-of-way).
Thanks for your help with this.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
I saw that last June during one of my tours (the one where I took the photos at the outdoor stations) - it was running behind the white factory building next to E105 Street station. I didn't pay it too much attention back then. It could have been old trolley tracks you saw, although it also could have been a spur off the Bay Ridge. If you go by there again, check near the intersection of Bank, DeWitt and Avenue "D" to see if the tracks are there - if they did lead to the Bay Ridge, that is where they would have branched off.
Wayne
Subject says it all. Was the station there before the connection was built? If so, what routing served it?
It is Grand Street. That became a new station when the connection was built.
David. You are confusing two similar sounding names. Grand Avenue is on the E/F/G/R lines in Queens and the other station is Grand Street and opened with Chrystie Street.
Bill answered your question very well.
OK,
Clarify something for me then....What trains used the 6th Ave side of the Manhattan Bridge prior to the Grand St station(1967)? Was it used and I guess the first station you'd hit was Bdwy Lafayette?
The west end and sea beach and brighton trains went up Broadway in those days----OK I know someone out there has the answer.
HK
Prior to the connection the "6th Ave" north side went to Broadway and the south side went to Nassau. Check the track maps: Track Maps. There are both before and after versions available.
-Dave
The "6th Avenue side" of the Manhattan Bridge tracks used to lead to Canal Street station, the way the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge do now. Thus, the Q (Brighton Express), QB (Brighton Local via Bridge), N and T (West End Express) used those tracks. The south side tracks used to connect with the Chambers Street Station of the Nassau Street line. I'm not sure any line used them right before Christie Street was open, but many years before the West End Local and Culver Local used to run in loops (to Nassau Street via the bridge and back to Brooklyn via the tunnel, or vice versa).
Service on that side ended the Wednesday before the connection opened (Thurs was Thanksgiving and Fri they began the reconfiguration of that side) It was used only by 5, I believe, rush hour 4th Av specials, and Brighton specials deadheading to or from service via tunnel.
You may also be confusing this with Grand Av. in Brooklyn. There was such a station at the point where the Myrtle Av. and Lexington Av. lines diverged. It was removed long before the Myrtle Av. El ceased operations in 1969, presumably along with the Lexington Av. El in 1950.
Bob Sklar
No
On Sat. March 13 at 12:36PM at Van Courtland Terminal a train that was to leave reported to the Dispatchor that there was no working Buzzer between T/O and C/R. The Dispatchor ordered the train to proceed in service anyway and use the radio. The T/O called Control Center because he felt it was unsafe. But no answer so the Dispatchor thorth it was the C/R holding up the train and takes the C/R out of service for hold up the line. But it realy was the T/O. Then she figures it out and put the Conductor in service on the next train. She tryed to take the T/O out but he relesed the Brakes. But was not takeing out service on the return. Now my question is can you leave a Terminal with passendgers and no working Buzzer? Also who was right the T/O or T/D? The T/D and RCI said it ok to leave the Terminal as long as you have a working PA and Radio. Anothor T/O said no because what if you have to do Buzzer/Bypass. My point of view is there was another train in the other pocket and they should have taken that train. As a T/O I would have in the samething. But if I'm ordered to take it down the road I would have toke the train to 238 St and then call Control Center.
What do you think?
And I thought all this I.R.T supervision was the best.You can leave a terminal without a working buzer if permitted by the dispatcher.If you had no indication,you cannot leave the terminal in service.Unfortunately,the T.D was right.However, she overreacted by trying to take the conductor out of service.I agree with your point of view about taking the train across the platform depending on the headway.If it's eight to ten minutes(I don't even think it's that),you could short relay. Less than that,the T.D should arrange for the b/o train to go to the yard upon arrival at VCP. I'm in the process of turning down the T.D job. There is no seniority system with that job.Same goes for those no good TSSs.Besides,I don't want all the aggravation.
Well the IRT lost alot of its great Supervision. Most are retired but there are good and bad out there. I noticed the IRT on the East side the TSS are more friendly then the ones on the West Side. But I noticed the TSS and SUPT are more spit.It seems like the New TSS from B Div go to A Div and the other way around. Thats why I'm thining about exploring the idea of seeing the other side of town.
Heck I was at Stillwell, the Conductor gets on board, annouces over the PA "I have to close the doors for a moment, I will reopen them".
Ding Dong doors close.
Not a second passes and on the PA, "Open Up on the D, Open Up"
Then "Conductor Report to the Dispatcher on that D".
Big fight, ensues, something (heard to overhear) like "someone closed down without the green lights."
New Conductor comes, Ding on the Bell, Green Lights and we close down . Off we go, pass two D's waiting at West 8th.
As a pax, it was amazing, I think there was a stuck door or somthing the conductor want to close and open to free it. But that's a guess.
It looks like that Dispachors is another winner. Is that why trains missterisly go BIE of enfore the rule on Calling Control when stoped outside a Term. with red Signals. This Disppachor seems to be like the two no good Incompent Disapachors at Van Courtlandt which are Ms. Coleman on the AM'S and Ms. Bush on the PM'S. but they wount be there for long the Gen. SUPT of the west side kicked them out. Ms. Bush gets away with 3 day work weeks by calling sick. But if I do that I get a call from Labor Relations.
At Stillwell Avenue, the conductors close up momentarily to change positions on the R-46s, R-68s and R-68As. This is SOP. I can't imagine the dispatcher getting bent out of shape over that. There had to be more to it.
When the arriving train comes in, the conductor is supposed to close the doors and reopen in the new position for the next conductor. I'm only speculating, but what may have happened is this: the arriving conductor did not change positions for the next guy or if it was a put in, it was opened from the wrong position. Here comes the leaving conductor, he sees the train is zoned improperly, closes down temporarily to leave in the correct position, and the dispatcher has a panic attack.
Thats wrong the arriving conductor is supposed to close down and de-zone on that type of equipment.the arriving conductor will also key open doors on certian cars.The new conductor will establish the new position..
You are correct Frankie, that is what the Bulletin states. But as we all know what is done in practice can be a totaly different thing.
And if I left a train on the stand with all the doors closed except the crew doors on a nice day with 5 minute headways, I would never hear the ned of it.
David,
I have Bulletin # 77-95
Subject: Revision of rule 42(A) - Communication between Conductors and Train Operators - All equipment.
(Bulletin states in part):
If the train buzzer is inoperative, the train intercom or PA system may be used as an alternative......
If the train buzzer, intercom, and PA system are inoperative at the normal Conductor's position on trains equipped with transveres cabs, Conductor will use the immediately adjacent transverse cab as an alternate operating position.
In the event that the train buzzer, intercom, and PA system are ALL inoperative, the train MUST NOT leave the terminal carrying passingers.
Rule 42(a), "Signal needed to start train", is revised to read as follows:
A Train Operator must not move the controller handle to start a train carrying passangers untill the Train Operators indication is lit. He/she must also receive two long buzzer signals or voice communications from the Conductor before starting:
1. From a terminal;
2. After an emergency stop; or
3. After cars are added or cut.
If the train buzzer fails, the conductor must use either the train intercom or PA system to tell the the Train Operator to proceed. A train must not leave a terminal carrying passangers if the train buzzer, intercom, and PA system are all inoperative.
As far as your question about who was right and who was wrong, I would have to interview or read statement from all involved before I could make charges. One thing is clear, the rule and bulletin are silent about the use of a radio. The use of a radio is not a good idea as it is not solid communication.
Thank you for the Bulletin. I better look throw those bulletins. Who knows what next is going to happen. I know your also in the IRT maybe will work together one day. My SAT job is open.
While we're on the subject of buzzers:
What was the deal with prewar equipment? I know the R-1/9s had buzzers, which were much mellower and not nearly as harsh sounding as on postwar cars. What about the BMT standards and Triplexes? I don't ever remember hearing a buzzer when leaving 8th Ave. on the Canarsie when the standards were still around.
Believe it or not, I can't remember what the R-10 buzzer sounded like, and the last time I rode on the R-10s was from Bedford Park on a C train.
Dave Foster, the next time a situation like this comes up and the dispatcher orders you to take the train in passenger service with no buzzer and you cannot reach command via the radio, follow school car. Secure your train, step off the train, go up to the dispatchers office and call command center. You will see the dispatcher change her tune real quick. (Of course she may get on your hide about every little infraction) But remember, no buzzer is a safety issue.
If you were to leave the terminal with no buzzer and you called from 238, command would come right back and tell you , you should know the rules and not have taken that train.
As a motor instructor in the IRT, I tell anyone who asks, if you have a problem, any kind of problem and you cannot reach control, secure your train and find a phone.
Thanks that clears up everything. Hey someone on the Eastside before before i left said that the Westside is the Mismanaged side of town. I can't wait to go back to the No.6 Line where the Motor Instructor are helpful. Hey feel free to email me.
Guess what Dave FosterR26, there are good and bad Motor instructors on the east side, west side, B Division...please don't generalize. Just take advantage of the ones who know thier stuff and avoid the ones that are not as knowledgable. (By taking advantage, I mean pick their brains for info. If a motor instructor has the time to help, he will.
Lately, the good ones have been few and far between. Perhaps that's because of the "rigid" qualifications for taking the TSS exam. To take the TSS exam you must have been in the title of train operator for 2 years and at least one year must have been in road service. Any wonder why most TSSs can't properly isolate a train?
Any TSSs care to coment?
I am seeking information for a screenplay I am writing. It is loosely based on the movie "The Taking of Pelham 123". In my film a subway car is commandeered and those who commandeer it must uncouple their train from the rest. Is this a realistic occurrence? In "Pelham" it's done in a very unclear way. I also have other qiestions as well. ANyone out there that can help me. I will give screen credit.
erevolver@hotmail.com
Uncoupling and coupling cars is an every day occurrence. If there is a coupler, it can be uncoupled. In Pelham 1 2 3, it was quite clear how the train was cut. The motorman's cutting key was inserted into the cutting valve and the train was cut. On the R-44/R-46 it's done a little differently but the concept is essentially the same.
The original Pelham doesn't show Martin Balsam inserting, then turning, the cutting key; nor does it show him moving the reverse key into reverse. The scene starts at the point where he pushes down on the controller, then moves it into switching position, after which the cars are seen uncoupling. The remake, as bad as it is, does show all this taking place.
P. S. Dod you notice how Balsam looks behind his shoulder as the train is backing up, as if he could actually see anything on the track behind him?
There were many technical aspects of the movie that were not shown. They didn't show how the conductor operated the doors nor did they show that he had to change opsitions before and after stopping at Grand central Station. This was a movie about a crime and not an instructional video about how to operate a train. If it were, the Rube Goldberg device they came up with to defeat the deadman's feature would have ruined the movie. Never heard any complaints about that!!!!!
Actually, 2 years in service and 1 year as road train operator is not that rigid. It should probably be more years.
One reason that relativly new Tss's have trouble isolating a train could be because breakdowns occur very infrequently. How many T/O's have had to isolate a car? On the road? This is not the 80's when it was a regular thing amd motormen had to move alot of garbage equipment by any means necccesary. In addition, when new train operators come out of school car, they do not spend 1 year in the yard(really getting to learn the equipment and breakdowns and moving bad cars). They are immediatly put in road service.
On the other hand, there is no incentive for the senior, more experienced T/O's to go for the promotion to TSS. There is an increase in money, but your seniority goes out the door. And in the supervisory titles, there is no true pick. There is a "selection" but it is a selection by the superintendents.
Another thing....if you really want to have a good TSS test....Make it a fill in the blank test, not multiple choice. Then we'll see who really knows their stuff.
Actually, I'd perfer a practical exam for TSSs be included with the written test. The point you make about the inability of crews to move B/O trains is a very valid one. That very point was made by one of the B division General Superintendents while we were discussing a recent protracted delay in PM service. The fact that the equipmentis in better shape and breaks down far less often should not be viewed as a negative. Perhaps TSSs should, as part of their critiques ask the crew, "What would you do if......?"
I agree If you want to be a TSS now your stuff. I think have of them pass it by guessing. Right now I put in to take the TSS Exam in june. But I don't know if I realy it I just want to see how good I can score. My son bourt my a study guide book and the Qestions look easy. But I realy don't know if I want to give up 10 YRS of senarity and living in the Pocono's.
Sorry I mad an Error
( I think have pass it by gessing)
I ment I think half of them pass the Exam by gessin
That isn't the only mistake.
OK, OK, give him a break. We went through this once before.
Some of us do....,while refresher courses are few and far between, as part of my regular regimen i'll throw out a question regarding a breakdown. The idea is to get the motorman or conductor thinking. It's not really bad if someone does not know something or if a procedure was forgotten, that's what a Tss is for. I wish crews would ask more questions. The more operating personnel know, the better off everyone is.
From your posting, I gather that you are a TSS. Delays charged to DCE naturally keep me from meeting my goals. I find that the simplest way to avoid those delays and trains coming out of service is to ride with the crews, talk to the crews and find out what they like and don't like (or understand) about the equipment. Where I can make changes, i do. Where I can't, I explain why I can't change something.
I find that there is a general lack of understanding in how the equipment operates, especially the dreaded R-44 or R-46. For example, on some the air brake light comes on immediately and on some, it comes on just before the train stops. Most operators don't know why and worse yet, which is correct or what it means. When I explain, I invariably get the same "Why don't the TSSs tell us that?"
I find on the LIRR, the equipment is in far worse shape (believe it or not) but the corperate mindset from the crews to supervision to management is that if it has wheels - it rolls. Picture a NYCT train with 4 hot/dark cars remaining in service with the end doors tied open. Duting that summer, that's a regular occurrence on the LIRR. I'm not saying it's right but the mindset is that the OTP & MDBF goals must be made. To be more relevant, when I was an RCI if a wheel had no more than 3" of flats in any quadrant, the train stayed in service. Now that the equipment is in so much better shape, trains come out of service for far less. TSSs (most) say "Found as Reported" and few will actually say that the train is okay to remain in service. I fear it's not because they don't care about MDBF or OTP but just don't know what is or isn't okay anymore.
Actually you are somewhat right. A list has been printed up by schoolcar as to what stays in service and what does not. I'll Have to dredge it up. But understand that the problem lies from the top people in Control (and the Chief Transportation Officer) all the way down to conductors. Enough people don't know the job, are not taught properly and don't give a darn to care that it makes it difficult for those of us that do.
I still say that operating personnel need to ask more questions of Tss's. And if you doubt what one says, ask two or three. Find out which one seems to give the most accurate info.
Okay, let me ask you (and anyone else who cares venture more than a guess) these two questions:
Question #1
My question about R-46s. When you call for a 40 Lb. brake, one train gives you an immediate air brake light while the other doesn't until just before the train stops. Which train is operating correctly and what is the significance of the immediate A/B light and the delayed A/B light?
Question #2
You have an R-46 (no passengers) with a brakepipe rupture. Fortunately, it's in the rear section of the train. You BCO and MCO the rear section, pull the angles at the conductors position and manually retrieve the electric portions. The conductor goes to the last car (as required). You charge up and are ready to proceed via head car operation to the yard. You take your rolling test and everything seems fine. What will likely happen before you reach the yard?
There are several TSSs and T/Os on this site including one who works the F regularly. These are not trick questions and I'd be curious to see how many correct answers we get from NYCT operating personnel. When you are done with these, I have more if you are interested?
It has been a while since I worked on R44 or R46 equipment but i'll take a stab without consulting my colleagues....
#1-When the air brake light illuminates immediatly with the inception of a 40lb brake, there is no dynamic brake. You only have friction brake. The Air Brake light illuminates when there is air in the brake cylinder.
#2-First you cannot move because you need 2 good cars for every BCO, you must test the handbrakes on the BCO cars and if the handbrakes are inoperable you must have a TSS on the train....Rule 43 (d) "DO NOT move any car with the air brakes not working unless two (2) cars with working brakes are coupled to each car with bad brakes. In such cases, the handbrakes on the cars with air brakes not working must be tested before moving. If the handbrakes do not work, the cars must not be moved except under supervision."
You are correct about the first question. When the motorman calls for a brake, every car should go into dynamic braking until the train slows to 5-6 MPH when the dynamic brake fades and the air brake is applied. If one car does not go into dynamic brake, you will get an equivalent pneumatic brake in that car. This does not effect the performance of the brakes but the air brake light will light immediately. If all cars are operating properly, the AB light will light just as the train stops.
As for the second question, let's assume the train is moved under supervision isolated 4 and 4 as previously stated. What will happen? We are talking mechanically, not rules!!!
One should probably cut 1-8, CB+ and GS on the sleds.
Jeff, MCO means cut out the 1-8, GS & CB+
Ooops, yes, you did say MCO.
Is this self-uncoupling considered a bug or a feature of the
OB couplers?
Well, here we go with the technical stuff again:
There are two pins in the electric portion referred to as the LS and LSA. They are safety features that disable the hook control circuit. When the electric portions are retrieved and locked back, the LS and LSA (actually not pins but switches) close. The LS and LSA serve two purposes. One is a safety feature and the other is to tell the logic that the car is not coupled. With the portion retrieved, the logic does not see the car it's coupled to. Now, as the cars move, there is normal play in the coupler heads. There is also an inductive (proximity) sensor in the coupler head which is supposed to sense the opposing coupler hook. With the LS & LSA disabled if the normal buffing/stretching action of moving BCOd cars may cause the hook sensor to lose the sense of the opposing hook. Without the LS and LSA, this will send an uncouple signal to the logic and when the cars buff, the hooks will dis-engage. The NYAB manual has alerted all operating personnel to this feature but it is sometimes overlooked.
That's hysterical! An inductive sensor in the coupler head.
Talk about over-engineering. I'm guessing all of this is
so when you hit the uncouple switch on one car, the hook gets
pulled on the other car and then you can back off your cut.
Was this an issue on the pre-GOH R46? How about the GOH R-44?
I seem to recall a few pull-apart problems when those cars were new.
My 2¢ worth....I prefer H2C.
I had an A train at 145th street which pulled apart north of the station from the link bars a few years back. I love it when a plan comes apart! The pullaparts are far and few with my H2Cs. I heard they are not in production anymore so that is why those 110a cars have the spears like the ARROW IIIs. By the way those are one piece casted so if you add on a curve and break it off the whole drawhead goes, at least the ones at NJT. Ive heard of conductors on the road pressing the uncoupler buttons by mistake and causing pullaparts, some resulting in the train never dumping, because in the days the electric portion being advanced broke the P-wire loop and the M/M indication but if the conductor was in the forward half the train never dumped as he pushed the button. We were ordered to treat this condition as if the train had dumped and recharged and most of the time we did find a pullapart. At least most conductors I know can't accidentally cut the H2cs.
My favorite pull apart story came before the R44's had drawbars. One morning an A train arrived at Nostrand Ave. and the doors never opened. The motorman looked back and saw everybody in the rear of the station running toward the front. It seemed he only had 2 cars! The other 6 pulled apart somewhere between Utica Ave. and there and his 2 cars did not go into emergency like they were supposed to do.
Wait a minute....
Trains come apart IN TRANSIT????
Not a common occurance, I'd hope!
What causes it?
R44's do things other cars don't do. I haven't operated one in years. I hear they are better, but when something is so bad, it can only improve. They have improved since GOH, but I sense they need lots more TLC to keep them going compared to other cars.
While we're on the subject of pull-aparts/uncouplings:
Did this ever happen with the R-16s?
Somewhere back in this thread someone mentioned a conductor being able to operate an uncouple switch. It seems to me that this should be interlocked in some way as to not operate unless a reverse key is inserted (not necessarily in forward or reverse since you should have to compress uncouple and then reverse off).
The process should be two steps. First isolate the cars, second uncouple. The isolation process breaks all train line and air connections, and enables uncoupling. This is a necessity in case of a breakdown. The uncoupling process should be doable from either car but require a key as above. It sounds like a case of the system becoming just too complicated.
I like:
1. Throw the drum switch on each car.
2. Close the straight air and emergency pipe valves on each car.
3. Manually pull out the uncoupling lever while another person compresses the coupling.
It worked reliably on OB couplers in Boston for years. :)
Immediately after the R-44/46 went through overhaul, the potential for the C/R uncoupling the train became evident (although this would not be an accident). To protect against this possibility, a "3-way Valve" was installed in every 'A' car. If the uncoupling cycle is initiated while the train is charged (if the C/R puts his key in the console and hits the uncouple button) as soon as the train begins to cut, both sections will immediately go into emergency. The only way to prevent this from happening is to initiate the uncouple command BEFORE the train is charged. This is school car instruction anyway.
Of course, all bets are off if the crew isolates the train as I stated at the beginning of this thread.
Are the SIRT R44s faring any better?
--Mark
SIRT cars had GOH done by the TA,they first tried to farm them out for GOH but the prototype rebuilds failed tests, the one I remmber is the totaly blew the load test, where they put 110% of the max weight on the car.
They don't have drawbars, A and B cars are coupled on both ends. They even run two car trains A-A normal is A-A-B-A.
Hank might now the current status of the fleet.
AFAIK, everything works. The overhaul was done as Lu has said, after the first car done by the outside contractor failed the load test dramatically; my understanding is that the frame was actually damaged. It actually took them 2 days just to move the car off SI, because the loaded it on the wrong side of the tracks.
Also, on the SIR, there's no such thing as a 'normal' consist. Weekends and late nights, when they feel like it, they run 2-car trains, A-A. Most trains are 4 cars, and can be , , and even 5 car trains are usually , but they are occasionally . I've never seen a 5-car train of all A cars.
-Hank
This begs the question, how could anyone screw up so badly as to cause the carbody to fail a load test. These cars have been through some formidable workouts! The only two possibilities I see are that either the car was damaged to begin with and the repair wasn't strong enough or that in the process of modifying underbody equipment, the contractor cut a critical frame member. The first is forgiveable, the second is nothing short of gross incompetance! A normal overhaul shouldn't weaken a carbody, and a major rebuilding should strengthen it.
>>the second is nothing short of gross incompetance! A normal overhaul shouldn't weaken a carbody,<<
Hence the rebuilds of the SIR R44's were done by the TA. I don't remember how long between the failure of the test and the cancelation of the contract but it was fast (in city terms).
You gotta love those R-44s. It seems there have been instances of uncouplings in Chicago as well. I have a clipping from the Tribune somewhere with a related story from a few years back.
Are the H-2-C couplers truly no longer manufactured? They seemed to be reliable, considering they were used on the R-10s thru the R-42s, and were brought back on the R-62s and R-68s.
$64,000 question: what's the main difference between an H-2-A and an H-2-C coupler?
I do love those R-44s. In school car anything that was "impossible" the R-44 proved them wrong. From undesired door openings enroute to an incident I had at Far Rock where the train charged itself, released the brakes and rolled downgrade to the bumping block. TRULY ATO! No matter what mods they do they will always be the Grummans Underground.
The first train back around 1986 that had the Westcode installed had a collision. It would figure St. Louie went bankrupt. The cabs are smaller then the 46s and the braking cars rubberband as if some were BCOd. A good 400 amp jerk in minimum brake mode is enough for a recall on newer equipment but the norm here. Even with the gold triangle brake mod they still would be better off with the dynamic removed altogether.
Not much. The primary difference is the electric portion.
The H2 head itself is the same. The H2As were used on the
AMUE braking equipment cars such as the AB, D and R1-9.
There the top pipe is Main Reservoir and it is always charged
to 110psi. The bottom pipe is Brake Pipe and varies from
0 to 70 psi. On H2C, the top pipe is Brake Pipe, and is
at 110psi (except in emergency), and the bottom is SAP and varies
0-about 85 psi. At least I think that's right, without looking
at one or a drawing.
Of course the difference in these two setups rises from the difference between the way AMUE and SMEE operate. However I do have one question:
Is the top pipe reservoir pressure (common on type K and L triple valves) or feed valve pressure (common on type U valves). The main reservoir pipe insured that all cars had full reservoir pressure available even with a bad compressor. (Boston was known to operate a four car train with one or two pumps running) The control pipe was a constant pressure used for graduated release systems, and allowed each car to support its own air system.
The typr U valve could work with either system.
Under AMUE as practiced on the IRT,BMT and IND, the only trainline
pipes are brake pipe and reservoir. The reservoir pipe is directly
connected to all the main reservoirs on the train (although some
variants of AMUE include a protection reservoir with a check valve
so there is some air available if the Res pipe ruptures).
Having all of the main reservoirs directly connected introduces
a subtle problem. Nominally, the compressor governor is set
to turn on when pressure drops below 85 psi and shut off at 100.
Of course, every governor is slightly different...these aren't exactly
NIST-traceable calibrations. So, let's say one governor on the
train is set a little high, say 87 psi. As pressure drops, this
governor kicks in, the compressor on that car starts to put out air,
pressure rises, and the other governors never see a pressure low
enough to start them, until finally that one poor overloaded
compressor burns out :)
That's why AMUE has a trainline synchronizer wire. If ANY governor
reads a low pressure, it energizes a battery voltage trainline which
turns on ALL of the compressors in the train.
As for manual cuts, I like them too, from a museum perspective, but
I think you can see where the type H automatic coupler was a big
advance in allowing a cut without a bunch of trips down to the
roadbed.
I don't disagree at all, just noting that the more safeguards that get built in, the more places Mr. Murphy seems to find ways for things to go wrong! :) [Nothing is foolproof beacuse fools are so ingenious.]
In any event the problems seem to arise with Ohio Brass couplers which are so common here in Boston. Now if only the equipment MUed across classes...
I've made this exact move a few yers ago from Av X to Jamaica Yard via the crosstown and the only other thing I recall doing was knocking out the centering devices. This allows the couplers at the C/R position to move freely and help prevent a derailment.
One long buzzer to you for that answer. If you manually retrieve the electric portions before cutting out the CPLR circuit breaker and rotating the cam switch, you set up a single point failure. The first time the T/O takes a brake, the cars will buff and uncouple. When he goes back to power, he'll leave the conductor coasting behind him. blissfully unaware that he is rolling free in the last 4 cars. That is until they stop or catch up to the front section again.
If that happens, would the T/o know he/she lost part of the train? would the tower know? What would be done with the other part of the train if it just stops--do they send a t.o to get the train?
To my knowledge, the senerio only became reality once. It's also a perfect example of why operating rules must be followed. In this particular case an F train had problems at 57 & 6th when they ran there on the midnight hours. The crew sectionalized the train as I stated previously. Unfortunately, the conductor did not go to the rear of the train. He also did not stay in his position. He went to the 4th car where the PA was still operative. The train started down 6th Ave heading for 2nd Ave to be turned north for Jamaica Yard. The first time the train operator slowed the train, the rear 4 cars buffed. When he went back to power, the rear 4 uncoupled. The front section was moving at about 30 MPH when the conductor noticed the rear section was starting to fall behind. The barrier springs were stretching out roughly 100 feet when the conductor realized that he had to do something. Did he alert the train operator? Nope. He pulled the emergency cord. The front section came to a rapid stop and the rear section, as you might imagine, caught up - fast!!!!!! The cars re-added but over 100 shear pins were damaged. Worst of all, the barrier springs which were now completely stretched, had nowhere to go but down. Thy hit the 3rd rail, blew the power and started a small fire. The C/R was not badly hurt by the impact or the smoke. None of the cars were damaged seriously either. Who'd a thunk it????
You mean those springs are strong enough to keep a train together? I don't believe it.
-Hank
I didn't mean to suggest that the springs are that strong because they aren't. What I meant was that while they were unwinding, the conductor saw what was happening and pulled the emergency cord.
I will tell you that with the cars coasting, the springs might just have held considering that there are 6 of them between each pair of cars. When we installed the springs in 1984, we used carriage bolts and epoxy to hold the plates to the fiberglass bonnet. We did a 'pull test' to test the strength of the epoxy and we actually seperated the bonnet from the car body without the epoxy failing. Talk about over-engineering...
Sounds like the expensive component which blows to protect the 25¢ fuse. ;)
Steve...what's a "shear pin" in this context?
The coupler or link bar on the R-46 is held in the draft gear by four (4) shear pins . Shear pins are specially designed bolts that will give way, shear, when stressed to a pre-determined load. On the R-46, I believe that the shear pins will let go at 180,000 ft/lb each. Since there are 4 per end & a car weighs about 91,000 lbs. By counting the # of damaged shear pins, you can pretty accurately determine the speed of a train involved in an incident.
That sounds like something straight out of a Looney Tunes cartoon. All you'd have to do is throw in a pedal guitar sound or two. I didn't realize those springs could stretch that much.
Yeah Right.I'll be on the lookout for radar guns.
That's a good thing. Remember, you need backbone to stand up to peer pressure and pressure from dispatchers and motor instructors and control. Keep in mind, the rule book and bulletins can help you or hang you. We all break the rules from time to time, but we must be able to face the consequences when caught.
In regards to speeding....while some of the speed restrictions seem ludicrous, if enough trains speed around a curve, it could work the rails loose over time. It's rather remote but never the less one train too many could speed around the curve and derail. That's just an example but I want you to see the big picture. Speed restrictions keep trains on the rails which keep passengers in their seats and train operators in their jobs.
You think its a good thing that I'm on the lookout for radar guns? I'm against you guys.I hear stories everyday about T/Os and C/Rs being taken out of service for stupid little things by people who were once in the same position.As a matter of fact,I'm already looking at my fellow T/Os who are taking the TSS test completely differently.They are already the enemy as far as I am concerned.
I know what your saying. I was almost written up for going 6 MPH over the limit coming into Grand Central on the Northbound Local. the posted sign was 10 MPH and I was clocked at 16 MPH. This was at 17:00 Hrs or 5:00 PM. So the next day I went 6MPH Under the limit witch was 4 MPH. The service was pugged behind. Then I obayed every sign posted. I had a steady 10 Mins late at both Terminals. After the first week they put TSS's on my train to observe my operation. They could't say nothing to me. My follwer called Control on me when he got on my tail. So Control got on my case but just gave my skip. The only thing is my train was full on all 3 trips. Grand Central had a TSS check on me because there where 4 Trains behind and my leader was at 110 St as I left 33 st. But again nothing happened to be because I was only going by the book. Also not all TSS are bad. There are some good ones.
Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Dave Foster you did the right thing. If you had read my post, I said something along the lines as there is a reason for rules. Everyone talks about a rulebook slowdown. Guess what, if everyone followed the rules, followed every speed sign, the railroad would slow down. And the powers that be would relax the schedules, so instead of a #2 taking 1 hour 26 minutes, (approximate, I don't have the timetable in front of me) the running time might be 1 hour 36 minutes. And guess what, this would translate into a few more jobs, or, some speed signs being increased.
As for Mike, i'm sorry you see this as an adversarial type of thing. If you do your job, nobody can bother you. Yes, Tss's might ride your train more often but they can't write you up for an infraction that you are not committing.
Just keep in mind that if this were private industry, peple would be on the street after one infraction.
Please mike, just follow the rules.
I thought that buzzers are used to buz people past doors, buzzer used as door bell, buzzer to signal a telephone call, buzz hair cut, buzzing around the office, buzz saw used by magicians to cut a girl in half, Buford Buzzard who is silly bird to make fun of people.
You have to leave a terminal with a working a buzzer. After all, the motorman doesn't really know when to wrap it around the corner or is the master controller? He does have an indication light on the air gauge when the door are closed. Maybe the buzzer should be used to play music.
A Buzzer is used as communication between T/O and C/R. If theres a red Signal the T/O gives a long Buzz. Give 2 short Buzzers when ready. The C/R may give a Long Buzzer to the T/O witch tells me to STOP Immedately. Then when I get 2 short Buzzers proceed. The Conductor must give the T/O 2 Buzzers before leaving the Terminal. The T/O Must give 2 Buzzers back before rolling. INDICATINON is important. You can't move without it unless Control Center tells you its ok to run on the Bypass. Then thats called Buzzer/Bypass with means instead of the Indication light poping on you get 2 Buzzers.
But I really don't like that kind of operation
Buzzers were probably more important years ago when there were no PA systems and radios where the motorman & conductor could communicate with each other or the control center. Remember, only within the last few years did conductors begin to use radios.
Yep, trolleys had long been the life-blood of the borough but are now merely a memory. However, if you look closely enough you may find hidden remnants of their former glory. Here's a list that I had been compiling for a few years on current locations of existing trolley poles (most were made of cast iron) in Brooklyn. If anyone knows of other locations -- in Brooklyn or Queens -- please feel free to add them to the list.
Downtown Brooklyn/Brooklyn Heights: South East corner of intersection of Cadman Plaza West and Tillary Street.
Flatbush/Nostrand Junction: North West side of Nostrand Ave. just in front of #2 & #5 train exit by Republic National Bank.
Flatlands/Old Mill Basin: North West side of intersection of Utica Ave. and Avenue N. Two poles running behind what was property of old used car lot.
Canarsie: three poles at the Rockaway Pkwy L Train Terminus. Located between train and bus stations.
Is the old B41 loop off of Flatbush Avenue still in existence? (somewhere near Kings Plaza) I bet you'd find a couple of trolley poles back there. I seem to remember seeing a few of them out near the Coney Island yard too, along the "B" and "N" tracks north of Stillwell, though they may be gone by now. Also check around 9th Avenue station too.
Wayne
Surf Avenue - east of Stillwell Avenue; they are painted red, white & blue.
17th Avenue & 64 Street - top of one pole might still be visible at Sea Beach overpass near gas station.
(?) Manhattan Beach - at MacKenzie Street B1, B49 bus turnaround.
(?) New Utrecht Avenue & 62 Street - at B23 bus turnaround.
(?) Avenue X & McDonald Avenue - near restaurant.
Staten Island - Hylan Blvd & Richmond Avenue - at S54, S59 turnaround, very rare. Trolleys were eliminated from SI over 60 years ago, might be the only remaining evidence on of south shore trolley service.
Dan...Trolleys never operated on Oriental Blvd in Manhattan Beach nor did they operate on 17th Ave in Brooklyn. The New Utrecht Ave and 62nd St poles were probably for the old Cortelyou Rd. trolleybus line abandoned 10/31/56 (the same day the Brooklyn trolleys bit the dust).
Another location in Brooklyn with existing trolley paraphernalia is along McDonald Ave between Ave. C and Cortelyou Rd, going south hugging the IND Culver line. You can see the brackets where the trolley wire was suspended.
The trolley poles at New Utrecht and 62nd are at what was the terminal of the 16th Avenue trolley. The pole at 17th Ave & 62nd St is a remnant of the Sea Beach line's railroad days. The poles in Manhattan Beach are a remnant of the LIRR's rail service to Manhattan Beach.
The poles used for the surfcace-running electrified railroads appeared to be the same as the trolley poles. My question marks indicated that I am not sure certain poles still exist due to street reconstruction over the years, but it's amazing that even a few of these poles have survived for possibly over 100 years.
Bob Diamond of the Brooklyn Trolley Museum (or whatever the precise name of that organization is) would probably like to have your list of poles. He mentioned (in the course of his Tunnel Tour yesterday) that he is in the process of obtaining, with the City's permission, old poles from around the City and moving them to his Red Hook site for reuse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Carl, the trolley era equipment you see under the Culver Line is more likely a remnant of the original South Brooklyn Railway's electrified ROW.
BTW, there could be some trolley poles remaining in the vicinity of Coney Island since the Norton's Point Trolley line once transversed the area.
I should investigate the Gravesend area by MacDonald Ave. and Ave. X one of these days as I believe the area surrounding the Coney Island yards may hold some trolley-era surprises.
Doug...The area on McDonald Ave. that I am referring to is just N. of the el, where the F (Culver Line) is emerging from the subway at Church Ave.
The southbound McDonald Ave. trolley track basically "hugged" the wall -part of the structure as the subway rises to the el (between Ave. C and Cortelyou Rd., right before the junction with the So. Brooklyn Ry.
Carl M.
Carl, thanks for the info. I've got to get over to Kensington and investigate that location. I will certainly bring my camera with me for posterity.
True, South Brooklyn doesn't show up till a couple of blocks south of that location.
There is also an old carbarn on Staten Island, on Arthur Kill Rd near Armstrong Ave, across from Atrium Cinemas. It's behind a fence that encloses the old Brookfield dump. It's rumored that there may be something 'interesting' in there.
-Hank
>>It's rumored that there may be something 'interesting' in there<<
And it is plastered with HazMat signs from when that area was used for the dump. >g<
I think that it is a storage facilty for Historic Richmondtown, possibly housing vintage automobiles.
I was at Nathan's in Coney Island about 2 weeks ago. There are trolley poles east of Stillwell Avenue, too, running nearly to the Cyclone.
They are used to hang Christmas decorations, and, I think, decorations for the annual Mermaid Parade up Surf Ave each summer.
--Mark
In Baltimore, most poles were removed after streetcar/TC service ended. Exceptions were if the City Department of Traffic Engineering/Department of Transit and Traffic wanted the pole for traffic light use, they were not removed. Thus, ex-trolley poles at intersections all over the city. BTC sold all the bolt-down poles to Baltimore County, where they were used all over the place.
Fast forward to the 1980's. Baltimore City went to 12" lens traffic lights (weight, about 45 pounds). The effect of 45 lb objects bouncing in the wind was to bend the former street railway poles. The city started replacing the poles with new ones with bigger butts (the bottom of the pole). The old poles would be either fully removed, or cut off at the pavement. You would suspect that the next stop would be the junk yard, but you'd be wrong. The city promptly sent the poles to the friendly local streetcar museum (BSM), who renewed and reset the poles. For the ones that were cut off, we simply weld a 6 to 7 foot piece of schedule 80 pipe to the cut-off pole. Voila!! A reusable steel (not usually cast iron in Baltimore) pole. Almost half of our line poles are reclaimed poles from Baltimore's system.
There are still a few poles left in the sidwalks not doing anything (including one just down Harford Road from my house), if we need them (we have about 45 unused poles including 5 or 6 bolt-downs) we'll go get them.
Dan, very interesting info. Thanks for the post.
As you've probably guessed, there are literally hundreds of them all over the place. Just as in Baltimore, many are serving new "owners", so to speak. Most that are no longer supporting trolley wire were taken over by Peco (electric utility). Some had traffic signals and signs on them, but most with signals are being removed.
SEPTA still salvages them and has stored a bunch for future use.
It's interesting that those on portions of Route 10 have a different "cap" atop them than others in the City. This is a throwback to a PTC/PRT predecessor which put the poles in originally nearly 100 years ago. They still stand, with about 10 coats of paint on them.
I was going through some of my old notes and found two items (undated) - one had #4323 being damaged by fire in Pitkin Yard, the other had #4248 being involved in a collision at Dyckman Street. I've seen both of these on the road since I began re-spotting R40s back in 1996. I just want to confirm that these have been repaired and returned to service. Any information (esp. Steve with the major incidents reports or Constantine with the repair logs) would be appreciated.
Wayne
Dave, I did a little research and that is indeed an EP-5 from the old New Haven railroad. Nicknamed the Jets, they were numbered 370-379 on the old NH. The surviving engines were renumbered in the 4970 series and painted PC black sometime around 1970. A lot of kids in the 1950's ran the Lionel version of this loco under their Christmas tree in the old NH red, white and black paint scheme.
Regards, Karl B
The testbed for the EP-5 was a Pennsy BLH-Westinghouse ignitron rectifier B-B-B freight electric, received by the PRR in 1951.
I would like to know if you can post the R62A & R110B front curtain signs with the color of each route on.
Sincerely,
Michael
http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current will give you all the numbers of the R-62A (I myself have never seen them, it's just what others have been reporting) The letters arent on there, of course.
I saw the R-110B scroll once, and I don't remember the order, but I did see the orange A (once proposed A to Brighton), and the gray K (14th St skip-stop).
It was just in time, because when it was passing the K the train pulled out of the station, and I didn't see what else was on there.
What is the tag for the Rockaway Shuttle? I saw no blue 'S'.
I don't think that was conceived of when the 110B came out. It was still the "H".
What are plans for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection when completed in 2001.
John
Work your way backward in the list. There are no firm plans, other than the G being cut back to Court Square and a second Queens Blvd local going through to Manhattan. What will go where, no one can say.
The weather forecast is for an accumulating snowfall overnight tonight, possibly changing to rain during Monday morning. I plan (these plans were laid in January) to meet my good friend Simon Billis tomorrow in NYC.
My question is this- does the LIRR have its "contingency plan" in effect regarding possible snow clearance? I sure hope so!
Wayne
Watch out Wayne, the snow is on the way. We have 8 inches on the ground already here in south central Pennsylvania and it shows no sign of stopping. It's supposed to be moving in your direction.
Happy Shoveling, Karl B.
My Dad reports 6" on the ground at his home in Winchester VA, not all that far from you folks and it is still snowing. The only thing I can hope for is that because we are near the sea, it will mix with or change to rain, keeping the accumulations down. I'm scheduled to be on the 6:32AM train...
Wayne
Yes it snowing by me in the Pocono's. Thank god tomorrows my dad off.
Where suppose to get a foot of snow up here. Hopefully the LIRR is ready it. Even thow New York will not see as much snow as Pennsyvania.
(New York will not see as much snow as Pennsyvania.)
that should relief me a bit
Sorry this is not Trains related, but where in the Poconos do you live? I used tolive there and just surprised to meet someone from there on this website.
Jason
Tannersville
My high school band camp was held in Tobyhanna for a few years. This was during my New Jersey days.
I'm sure that Winchester is in the same area as we are on the weather map. I think that Gettysburg is only about 60 miles northeast of Winchester. We have about 10 inches on the ground now and it is still coming down. Thankfully I don't have to go anywhere tomorrow but I sure feel sorry for anyone who does. It's a wet clinging snow so it looks like a winter wonderland out there. I'll bet old Todd G. up in Boston will have to face this tomorrow. I hope you people up in the city don't get the amounts that we have, if you do, Good luck!
Regards, Karl B.
Well, here in Boston we have about six inches of snow so far; my office looks out on lovely Boston Common and it's quite beautiful! Back on topic, my 7:13 a.m. commuter train from Mishawum Station on the Lowell Line was two minutes early getting into North Station. I guess it takes a snow storm...
And that's transit and weather together.
Todd, I thought that you would get a kick out of this. I am a weather-watcher for the TV Station in Lancaster PA. They called me late yesterday afternoon for a audio taping of weather conditions in Gettysburg. I made the mistake of describing our 8 inches at the time as being a "Winter Wonderland". The meteorologist on the 6PM news described me on the air as the "Snow Hound in Gettysburg". Have I been catching some harrassing phonecalls from friends and neighbors. We got a total of about 12 inches but the temperature is already up to 37 and yesterday's Winter Wonderland is today's slush.
Regards, Karl B.
Karl,
Snow is often more of a "media event" than a weather event! News managers (TV and radio) have often been known to ask their meteorologists to play up the high end ... to cause people to get concerned and watch more TV/listen to more radio. It turns out the only a very few storms each decade are of such mammoth proportion that people's lives are significantly affected. A frozen swtich here and a cancelled train there does not parallel armageddon! I recall that the rain we had here in Boston last June 13th (my birthday!), 11+ inches, caused much more of a problem than any named hurricane in many years. And a little bit of icing can cause wrecks on the road more numerous far worse than 5-10 inches of snow.
As Wolfman Jack used to say:
Some like it cold,
Some like it hot.
Here comes the weather,
Whether you like it or not!
(Back on subject) Transit properties can, and should have contingency plans to cover most weather eventualities. But you can't forsee everything, and preparing for "the worst possible" isn't cost-effective. That's why finding the right balance between cost and risk reduction is so important. [Sorry, Larry, if I'm treading on your tracks! Your insight on this welcome, of course!]
June 13th happens to be my parents' wedding anniversary; the next one will be their 53rd.
Remember winter storm Larry back in 1978? It was a doozy; I was still at UConn at the time and remember classes being cancelled for a day or two.
One of our talk radio stations in Denver gives traffic and weather reports every ten minutes during rush hours.
And back in the good old days, if a snowstorm was bearing down on Brooklyn and Queens, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line, and BMT standards would battle the elements on the Broadway, Myrtle Ave., and Jamaica lines. Karl, do you ever recall seeing that happen?
Steve B, By the time the R16's arrived on the scene I had started my career as a banker in the big bank at the corner of Fulton and Crescent. I did not get to ride the el to work or anything. Three years later I left Brooklyn for Pennsylvania. During those last three years my casual observations lead me to believe that the R16's had never taken over completely. There were always Standards around and during snowy weather they just may have been the sole occupants of the Jamaica Line. I have never heard anyone say and have been wondering, how were the R10's in snow?
Regards, Karl B.
The 6:32am LIRR from Babylon to Penn Station arrived on time, left two minutes late, and was SUPPOSED to get to Penn at 7:37, BUT...
It got there at 8:17, 40 minutes late.
BOOOOO! HISSS! PHOOOOEY!
I'll be posting more later on regarding our adventure on Monday.
Simon thoroughly enjoyed himself.
Wayne
Surprise surprise, the LIRR actually came through this morning. We had about 8 or 9 inches of snow in Central Suffolk. By the time I got my car out of the driveway, it was too late for my usual train, the 6:41 from Medford. I went to Patchogue to get the 7:16 express. It arrived at Patchogue only a few minutes late even though it comes out of Montauk. The run to Jamaica via the Central Branch was only a few minutes longer than usual, so the end result is that I got into Penn Station only 9 minutes later than usual. Not bad for such nasty weather.
According to the NBC Local, the LIRR had switch heaters (wish they put them on D/Q @ Prospect Park) changed shoes to the scrapper type and even ran the "AntiIcing" Train.
There was a power failure near Hicksville (Divide Tower) I think, but not sure, they said 15minute delays. 15min not bad.
Apparently some of the LIRR lines had significant delays this morning. When my train from Patchogue arrived on Track 5 Jamaica this morning (only about five minutes late), there was an electric train on Track 4 with its doors open. Although the PA was announcing that the next Penn Station train was on Track 2, I hopped onto the train on Track 4 as Flatbush Avenue and Penn Station work equally well for me. At any rate, as we approached Penn Station, the conductor apologized twice for the delays and said that he hoped no one's day had been significantly disrupted. I got the impression that the train (I don't know where it originated) was far behind schedule.
It was a heavy wet snow. The powdery dry stuff is what usually plays havoc with the railroads.
Hi all,
Since the last "mystery photo" drummed up such a big flurry of posts, I thought I'd upload a bunch of slides from my largely unlabeled collection. I've gotten them broken down into categories: Manhattan Els, Brooklyn Gate Cars, Brooklyn C-Types, Brooklyn Q-types, etc. I've put my own notes about whereabouts into the captions already but many are lacking or just plain wrong. So why don't we all take a look and see what everyone can identify. Again, I don't know the right or wrong answers but it would be nice to identify the pictures.
Anyway, they are at: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els.
I'll compile the reports as posted and update the captions.
-Dave
Wow, what neat photos! I never thought I'd see a picture of the Pitkin El stations, complete with the Chestnut-Crescent curve. What a lovely bunch of grungy old trains to boot. The Q-picture where you question Metropolitan Avenue sure is - see the church steeple in the background, a dead giveaway. Ditto for the one with the wooden platform. G-picture #51 is taken at Sutter Avenue. In fact next time I'm out that way, if the Slants are still on the "L" I'm going to take a picture of one snaking its way round that "S" curve before they demolish it like I hear they're going to do.
Great Stuff!
I hear we're getting a weather reprieve, at least along the coast. Could be we're going to be right on the rain-snow line. It seems to be changing by the hour. Todd Glickman, you will have quite a task calling this one.
Wayne
It appears that the picture captioned as Second Av. belongs in the IRT
group - BRT never had a line on Second Ave, plus the car has a roof headlight, a Manhattan Ry/IRT trademark.
Which picture? Which page? give me the jpg name if at all possible. A lot of them are labeled as being on 2nd Ave.
-Dave
I think I identified picture: bmtc16
I beleive it is looking west from Hinsdale Ave on the old Fulton Street Line South of Atlantic Ave Station. The 3 tracks go to the branch on Van Sindern Ave and the single track turning to the right is the connection to the Snediker Ave. line.
Wayne,
This is just a typical get-on-the-train-go-to-the-office Monday for me! I'm only in NYC one weekend a month - and this isn't one of them - so the "fun" of calling this storm is left to my colleagues at WCBS Newsradio-88. This time, I get to enjoy the storm here in Boston.
manel37.jpg is more likely a Third Ave. el shot, judging by the models of the cars on the street below. Also, if that's the shadow of the Con Ed building on the upper righthand side, that would put the photo looking south around 24th or 29th streets.
My guess for manel30.jpg:
155th St. and 8th Ave., looking north from south of 155th St.
The structure across the top of the picture is the 155th St. viaduct
to the Macombs Dam bridge to the Bronx.
The structure in the background, right side, under the viaduct is the Polo Grounds.
That picture brings up an interesting side issue. One of my earliest memories of traverling on the els in the late 40's as a 4-5 yr old child was passing or stopping under a vehicular roadway bridge.
I know we went to the Polo Grounds many times back then. There were probably two places in Manhattan that the el passed under another bridge other than another el structure. Those locations would have been 155th St on the 9th Ave El and the 3rd Ave line under the Brooklyn Bridge. Where/are there were any instances of an elvated structure passing under a vehicular roadway bridge in Brooklyn or Queens.
Back to the 155th St site. Did the el structure there terminate at the Macombs Dam Bridge after the demolition of the 9th Ave El, and then be cut back further to where the later pictures show the shuttle structure at the end of its existance?
Dave, I have just spent over an hour looking at your old pictures and I was only looking at bmtg. This was quite a nostalgia trip for me and points out all the more that I should have had a camera 50 years ago. Your pictures brought back a lot of memories -- Thank You!
bmtg-06- That's definately Myrtle Ave Line. The train is entering the Grand Ave station. You can see the crossover under the second car where the Lexington Ave Line branched off for its run to Broadway. This station was the strangest station I had ever seen with platforms for only three of the four tracks. Lexington Ave trains bound for Eastern Parkway had no station to stop at here.
bmtg-22- Definately the East New York Yards. I would imagine that is a three car end-of-rush-hour train from 111th St that carried passengers as far as Eastern Parkway, went out of service, and reversed direction down into the yards. Does your original reveal the number of the first car in the consist? My favorite was #902 and I was wondering if there was any chance... I tried to print this picture but still could not make out the car#.
bmtg-23- I know that you identify this car as #1251, but that can't be #1251, even though it looks like it. It has to be #1351. It is a convertible. Could you check the original for the number on the other end of the car? I tried to print this one too but did not get a clearer picture. Stare at the number 1251 long enough and I think you will agree it could be 1351.
I will study the pictures some more as time permits and see if I can identify some others. You have some wonderful pictures, Thanks for sharing them with us.
Regards, Karl B
> You have some wonderful pictures, Thanks for sharing them with us.
> Regards, Karl B
Thanks! I've amassed them over time so the original slides/original photographers are unknown to me. Next time I set the originals up in the carousel I'll take a look for more detail. They're all boxed up right now.
-Dave
Regarding the photos of the old Manhattan and Brooklyn Els;
Picture manel30 is definitely 155th Street on the 9th Ave El looking north. The destination sign reads South Ferry and if you look at the sign on one of the buildings near the lower left corner it reads Harlem Hotel and I beleive you can see the Polo Grounds in the distance.
By the way, this a great web site.
I believe bmtq22.jpg is a southbound Myrtle Ave. El train coming up to the Seneca Ave. station.
Picture: (bmtc08.jpg) . May be Flushing Line.
Location may be correct, but that's a Q, not a C.
Ed
Dave, I think bmtg-05 was taken right after bmtg-06 and the same train is leaving Grand Ave Station on its way to Franklin Ave which can be seen in the distance. I think both pictures were taken from the unusual walkway over the tracks that Grand Ave was noted for. The thing that really shakes me up is the four car train. I was familiar with 2,3,5, and 6 car trains but I never ever saw a 4 car train in service. I guess you learn something every day.
Regards, Karl B.
To David Pirmann I was looking at your picture from the past and I found three picture look formerly to me. #1 BMTG22.JPG is ENY Yard because of hard curlve and switch. #2 MANE111.JPG is 3 Ave El on Canal st because the building have a sign on the top and it the bank that still there right now #3 MANE120 is 23st on 3 ave el because of building on the left and you can see the empire state builing on the background.
bmtq11.jpg:
Just a guess - 161 St. on the 3rd Ave. El in the Bronx??
That sign that looks like it says 6th St. could say 161st St. It's way out of focus. Also, the Q's have the look they had after being transferred to the 3rd Ave. El in 1949 (marker lights closer together), but I don't see to doorsill extensions added when they went to the Myrtle Ave. El around 1957.
Ed Sachs
That right Ed this is 161st 3rd Ave El, as you see the background with white building is a old courthouse and still there now.
manel111.jpg - appears to be the 42nd St/GCT branch junction at 3rd Ave.
The picture is near Marcy Avenue on the Williamsburg Bridge approach. Marcy Avenue Tower in background and Marcy Avenue station is out of view to the left. Note the BRT, BMT open gate cars.
According to the New England Transportation Web site, the M.B.T.A. will start using the type 8 test trains in revenue service tomorrow. However, you can only use the floor-lowering device for wheelchairs at the Riverside station, because only the new 8 inch platforms are there. Also, since snow is in the forecast, who knows if service will start tomorrow or not. I'm assuming they'll be running mostly on the D line,since that is the line that the riverside stop is on. Perhaps other Boston riders can fill in other info.-Nick
I asked an Inspector yesterday (Sunday) and he said the introduction of the Type-8 might be delayed by today's snow storm. In addition, he said that the cars (3802/03) would run on all lines, so that operators (and passengers) can get experience with them.
I was on the lookout this morning on my ride from North Station to Park Street, but no sign of them. I'll be going to a meeting via the Green Line at lunchtime today; I'll report back if I see them.
Thanks for the info, Todd. I'd be out there looking for them too, but I'm in Florida for Spring Break. But I'll get a ride on them soon, I suppose.-Nick
In the NY Daily News Monday March 15, pages 20 and 21, is an article about Railway Historian Bob Diamond who gave a rare tour of the ''lost'' Atlantic Ave Brooklyn tunnel found in 1982. Built in 1844 to relieve congestion in Brooklyn, the tunnel was sealed by the LIRR in 1861, and later forgotten. Bob Diamond is the founder of the Brooklny Historic Railway Museum, rediscovered the tunnel more than 120 years after it was sealed by studying antique maps and old newspaper clippings.
After looking at the pictures and the article that i put in above, verbatim, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The article doesn't seem to be on the online edition. I'll have to buy a copy of the paper to read on the ride home tonight. That tunnel certainly sounds interesting. Hard to imagine it could have been forgotten for so long.
I was on one of the tours yesterday - quite interesting! Bob has a number of ideas about what to do with it - he proposes reopening it as part of a streetcar circulator, among other things. I'm not sure how much of him is real and how much is pure P.T. Barnum - he certainly does have a flair for hype - but the idea at least sounds good. Whether or not the city would ever go along with it is another story.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did he ever dig the tunnel further east (towards the water) hoping to find a station and a steam engine he thought were buried in there?
And even if did get his "circulator" going, how would he get his streetcars in there? I often wonder where the mouth of his tunnel would be ....
--Mark
He has found the station by digging, with city permission, from the top (when the street was undergoing resurfacing a few years ago, if I heard him clearly - someone else started talking near me so I had a hard time with that piece of his talk). It is in the portal area near the waterfront. A brick platform surface and either limestone or marble walls have been located. This has now been filled in again but Bob hopes to properly excavate and restore it someday.
The other end of the tunnel comes out where Atlantic Avenue slopes somewhat downgrade between Court Street and Boerum Place. The manhole cover where we entered the tunnel is at Court and Atlantic, very near that end.
Near both ends of the tunnel there are walls constructed in 1861 and filled from there to the portal (and through the open cut area) with rubble. The three original smoke vents, which at one time protruded about four feet above the surface of the street but which, if I remember him correctly, would now be completely below street level due to grade changes, were broken off and the rubble from them was pushed back into the tunnel. He and his associates have removed most of this debris as part of their archaeological work. There is also evidence in the tunnel of the 1916 entry in search of supposed German saboteurs who were allegedly hiding out there, manufacturing poison gas for an attack on New York. The dirt floor still bears the impression of the ties from one of the two original tracks; the ties and rail from this track were removed in 1861 when the tunnel was sealed. (The other track was removed about 1850 and wagons used that trackway. Their ruts are still visible in spots.)
Our entry into the tunnel was by a short climb down through a manhole at Court and Atlantic. This brought us down onto the rubble area beyond the wall at that end. From there we crawled through - OK, not literally, but there was barely enough room to stand upright - to an opening approximately 4 1/2 feet high and 2 feet wide through the wall into the main body of the tunnel. (Now try and imagine me trying to fit through that opening!) If you have a copy of today's Daily Snooze, the large photo at the top of pp. 20-21 was taken through that hole. We then proceeded down a crude staircase built on a pile of rubble (spoils from Bob's clearing effort at that end - the area we went through from the manhole to the wall was originally almost full of rubble) to the tunnel floor. The open length of the tunnel is approximately 1700'; total length including portal area was about 2500'. It is in excellent condition, thanks to its having been overbuilt orginally and to its having been sealed up for so many years. At the far end a portion of the wall has been removed and a number of pieces of stone laid out down the tunnel; they are part of the original portal walls that were used as rubble when the tunnel was sealed. Bob made no mention of any locomotive being found, but there's still much rubble to be excavated if they can ever get the necessary permission to open the tunnel. I suspect that much further excavation would require disturbing the street, so the mystery of the locomotive will go unsolved for some time.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought you all might be interested.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there any way to match up the route of the tunnel with that Regional Planning Commission proposal last month to hook the LIRR Atlantic Ave. line up to a proposed Second Ave. line that would hook over to Brooklyn after coming down Water Street to South Ferry?
If I have the RPC plan and the tunnel locations right, it sounds like the subway line would run along the exact same route if it was ever built, which would definitely have an effect on any private plans for the tunnel.
There was an article about Brooklyn in National Geographic in the early 80s which included a few paragraphs about the tunnel. Bob Diamond was quoted as saying this was the first cut-and-cover railroad tunnel ever built, if not the first such tunnel ever built, period. It took seven months to build. How deep below Atlantic Ave. is it; i. e., how far is it from street surface to the roof of the tunnel?
Not incredibly far. As I recall, Bob said we were standing 35 feet below the surface of the street at the midpoint of the tunnel, which is also the deepest point. My guess is the top of the vault was about 18 feet above the trackbed plus you have the thickness of the brick courses, so from the outside of the tunnel shell to the surface should be a maximum of about 15 feet. It's very nearly at the surface where the manhole entry is at Court Street. Bob mentioned that it was so overbuilt it could handle six times the surface load that it now does, even with all the cement trucks that regularly use Atlantic Avenue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, if you've noticed, SEPTA laid out new track betrween 5th and 15th Sts. over the weekend. All trains in this section ran on the eastbound track.
About time, huh?
Jack I was traveling down 95 a while back and it looked like they were doing some type of track work just north of the portal going toward Spring Garden St. Are they replacing the tracks between 2nd and Spring Garden do you know? I notice the cars rock back and forth going through that stretch of track.
I believe something is going on here and it may be trackwork, but I can't swear to it. I've been trying to find out but haven't gotten any information on it. There has been a slow order in both directions on the former speedway between Spring Garden and Girard for several weeks.
It was nice of SEPTA to renew the rails between 5th and 15th, but it would have also been nice to have some publicity. I understand trains were on extended headways and there was much confusion about which platform to use (at 5th, there is no crossover between EB and WB sides, and many patrons apparently went to track level only to learn they had to go back to street level, cross Market Street, and return to the other platform). Nothing new here - SEPTA has removed bus service from Chestnut Street due to the start of the end of the Transitway. Buses came off on 3/14 but seat drops were only put on buses over the weekend. Since Route 9 is off Chestnut (and on Market) for its entire EB Center City routing, Chestnut bus service is down by nearly 1/3 west of Broad St. No surprises.
Not too long ago I got into a debate with Larry about the merits of a freight tunnel under the Hudson. He made some thoughtful remarks about why it realy wouldn't have much effect on the truck traffic to/from LI.
Sunday's Newsday has an editorial by John F. McHugh that takes the other view. It talks about an orig plan/law in 1922 that empowered the Port Authority to do this. It also talks about why it's not in the Port Authority's interest to dig a tunnel (would reduce the toll revenue they get on the bridges).
I certianly hope that a tunnel isn't being prevented because of this.
P.S. Can anyone tell me who's #85 is in the photo ? It looks like a RS model.
Mr t__:^)
As many of you know I collect MetroCards, plus dip/swipe cards form out-of-town. One of my SubTalk friends posted that the Museum was giving away a poster showing 77 MC & 5 MC Holders with graphics since 1994 (you had to buy $35 of stuff to get it). I just had to have one so I called Brooklyn, ordered Peter Dougherty's subway track book. A few days later the book came, but no poster. Additionally page 26 was blank :-(
When I called they said I would have to wait for Greg to come in Fri. I thought here comes the NYC run around :-( I called Fri., in the course of the discussion I asked if the Times Sq. store had both items (I had to take my son to Penn Sat AM for a Amtrak to FLA). Greg said no, BUT he would be happy to bring the items to them. Well Sat just after 8 AM I walked to the counter and in the back what did I see ...
Well it surfices to say that I'm a happy camper !
P.S. Connie if you are reading this please convay to Greg my sincere appreciation for his kindness !
Mr t__:^)
I still have Metrocards from 1998 US Open to trade.
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Williamsburg Bridge closes on May 1st, 1999 until mid
October, what will service be like? Will there be BMT Nassau Street
service to/from the BMT Southern division via The Montague Street
Tunnel during the rush hours?
James Li
Here we go again: From Jamaica: Z rush hours to Eastern Pkwy skip stop both directions, J to Bway/Myrtle 24/7 with rush hour skip stop from Eastern Pkwy. to Jamaica Center. J/Z will have 6 car trains. M to Marcy Ave. 24/7 with 4 car trains. On the other side: 4 car shuttle trains 6 AM to 10 PM 7 days/week from Essex to Broad (Chambers on the weekends). 8 car M trains rush hours only Bay Pkwy. to Chambers St.
Somewhat off topic, but why is the Bowery station open on weekends when the Williamsburg Bridge is closed? Unlike the other three weekend Nassau stations, there's no place to transfer to.
The Bowery is a very low use station. It is around the corner from Grand Street (B/D/Q)
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks reopen in 2003,
what will service be like? Will the north side tracks close for the
reconstruction project similar to the one in 1986-1988? Will there be
a new V Train down 6th Avenue and a new W train down Braodway, both
operating through the new 63rd Street Tunnel connection? Will the
BMT N and Q trains return to Broadway Express service? Will there be
a Brighton Local train via Montague Street Tunnel and Broadway Local
similar to the QT train from 1961-1967?
James Li
There is that Sir/Madam person, gawd makes ya feel old...
Reminds me of an OLD comedy bit: Salesman: Good Evening Sir or Madam, whichever the case may be, I represent the blah-blah Manufaturing Company......
The bit is so old you need a Tube Radio (remember them?) to hear it.
Looks like you've been reading some of the prior posts. Keep reading, the thread about the Manhattan Bridge is still going. Just go through the previous messages.
-Hank
The F train was crowded and slow, but things go worse from there. There was an "incident" which forced the A onto the F line, after it sat in the station for 10 minutes. The change at Delancy for the BMT back downtown was a mess: I couldn't get on the first train (M) and it was a long wait for the second train (Z).
If too many more things go wrong at once in Brooklyn, the TA could be overwhelmed. But that might be a good thing. As we know, anecdotes beat facts every time. A real service collapse on the subway might help the MTA compete for funding with the health care industry, which has a made-up-crisis (they're not getting richers relative to the rest of us as fast as in the 1980s). I still see too many articles about how the health care industry needs more public dollars.
Bergen Street on the F is my stop but I usually walk to the Court Street R and use the F when the wheather is bad. Well...
Add to this the fact that the Q was rerouted onto the R Line this morining and there was a lot of confusion and delays.
Add to this the Dept. of Sanitation's total failure to clear the drains all along Court Street and walking to the R was a mess. One would think that with Borough hall right there that some Sanitation Heads would Roll over this one.
And once again they have failed to correct the escalators at Court Street. They have been running the wrong way for months!!!
One would think that if there is a disaster city would pitch in to smooth over some of the minor problems in the troubled area.
I Give the city an F as far as handling the Bergen Street Mess.
(Bergen St Mess) Bergen was supposed to be closed, but we stopped there and people got on, so I guess it was open.
Incredibly, my wife took the F an hour after I did and had an easy ride. I guess it will be "Metropolitan Roulette" for a while.
The switch south of Prospect Park was frozen and D's ran express from the Highway. Some of the Q's were rerouted but not all. The track gang was pickup around 7:50am though, I assume normal service after that.
Funny seeing the local track after the switch all covered with snow, no Shuttle putins today >G<..
Dear Sir/Madam:
Last week's Bergen Street Fire caused the IND F trains to run
express from Jay Street to Church Avenue. Why do the express tracks
the F train were running on diverge from the local tracks' right of
way between 7th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway? Will they ever
reroute the IND F trains express to Church Avenue and extend the
IND G trains to Church Avenue when the IND G trains get cut back
to Court Square for good when the 63rd Street Tunnel connection opens
in August 2001? Why were all the signals out on the north-bound
express track from Carroll Street to Jay Street?
James Li
> Dear Sir/Madam:
Which sir or madam is that? This isn't an official MTA/NYCT web site you know... Read the prior posts and you will see a lot of information about the Bergen Fire (and other topics like the W'burg Bridge Closure)
-Dave
James ... no need to be so formal :)
> Last week's Bergen Street Fire caused the IND F trains to run
> express from Jay Street to Church Avenue. Why do the express tracks
> the F train were running on diverge from the local tracks' right of
> way between 7th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway?
The IND line was build this way. The express tracks diverge because they take a more dirdct route to 7th Ave than the local tracks do. This was done to speed express service. At the time the line was built, there was enough funding to have the lines separate. The same thing was done on the IND Queens Blvd line between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave in Queens (and in fact, "The Map" even shows this).
> Will they ever reroute the IND F trains express to Church Avenue and
> extend the IND G trains to Church Avenue when the IND G trains get
> cut back to Court Square for good when the 63rd Street Tunnel
> connection opens in August 2001?
Not if the people of Carroll Gardens have their way.
> Why were all the signals out on the north-bound express track from
> Carroll Street to Jay Street?
I suspect the fire knocked them out.
--Mark
Dear Sir/Madam:
In the past, I rode many trains of R-68s and R-68As, and found
out that there were other letters in the roll signs. Will they ever
use the V and W signs when the 63rd Street Tunnel Connection opens
in 2001? What color are the extra letter signs in the R-68s, R-68As,
R-110Bs, and future R-143s? Will there be any new letters used like
I, O, P, T, U, X and Y in future subway cars' roll signs?
James Li
I noticed that for 2 Years the No.1/9 trains don't wait at South Ferry. Instead they all hold at Chambers St Northbound and usaually wait for 3 Express to pass. Then when the train moves out another train comes in and waits. Why is that. Dave Foster You work the No. 1 why do we wait at chambers ?
Well the South Terminal is South Ferry and we do stop at Chambers to wait for are time to go back to the Bronx. There is No more Dispatchor at South Ferry the person in the Office is a Conductor. The Dispachor at Chambers tells you you intervel out South Ferry. So basicly instead of waiting at South Ferry for your Secheduled time you move up to Chambers. Someone told me the reason for this is people where complaining that they miss the Boat because of being stuck outside the Station. But now they complain they miss the train.
Anyway your better getting off at Chambers get the Express and you probably connect with the train ahead of the train you where on at 14 St.
The reason the #1 waits at Chambers northbound is that it is easier for the dispatcher to hold it to time at Chambers. His train indication board in the office does not show South Ferry, so by tracking the operating motor on the train southbound, he knows which train it is supposed to be coming northbound from the ferry. The dispatcher (actually ATD) has an easier time of regulating the service.
They got rid of the dispatcher a while ago and kept a conductor their to make the stand clear announcement. It makes sense to have a Dispatcher at Chambers Street because they can see all the service(local and express), but they should have an ATD at South Ferry to give the train the starting lights etc. The conductor should work the platform as it is scheduled.
That 'Stand Clear' announcement, as well as the moving platforms, are all automated. The conductor in the booth is there for back up.
-Hank
He is also there to disengage the gap fillers in the event that a train is sent around the loop without making the stop at the ferry- like the 2 has been doing in the middle of the night.
Better to miss a train that runs every 5-15 minutes, depending on T-O-D, then to miss a ferry that runs every 1/2 hour to hour by 30 seconds. (Like I have twice this weekend)
-Hank
HOUR you mean HOUR when the boat is on Hour Headways in the early morning or late at night when I need it.
I would always wonder if I got off at Chambers and RAN to South Ferry if I could make the boat. I can't count the times we "just" missed the boat waiting to get into South Ferry (watching the 5 turns on the inner loop). This was also when you coulnd't board at the lower level, run up the stairs and you miss it even though they are still loading cars on the lower level. UGH, well at least you can board on the lower level now.
I never understood why they stopped loading pedestrians a good 5 minutes before they finished loading cars. It's been a long time since I waited for a boat at either terminal, since I seem to be just making the boat in the AM reverse.
-Hank
You are number one if you ride on the No. 1 train. It waits there for Bernie Getz to arrive.
Thank you for responding Dave. But I'll stay on the train at Chambers and keep my seat to my stop at 110 Street.
Over the past 5 months I have heard about these 8 new lines more and more where did lines come from I have never heard of these lines. What will lines be along. Like the V going along sixth Avenue. Plus when will these line debut?
Christopher Rivera
These lines are just previously proposed lines, and precautions-- in case they ever need a new line they don't have to make new rollsigns.
Over the past 5 months I have heard about these 8 new lines more and more. Where did lines come from I have never heard of these lines. What will lines be along. Like the V going along sixth Avenue. Plus when will these line debut?
Christopher Rivera
Over the past 5 months I have heard about these 8 new lines more and more. Where did lines come from? I have never heard of these lines. What will lines be along. Like the V going along sixth Avenue. Plus when will these line debut?
Christopher Rivera
You are repeating yourself three times. I know that the number 8 train used to run as the 3 avenue el. My advise read the earlier talks about the #8 train (Rename as the Franklin Shuttle) or other past talks to answer your question.
B.H.T.
I don't know if these have been answered. So if they have, please tell me.
I know that they are doing something in lower Manhattan on weekends. What? I took a train up from the Lost Tunnel tour yesterday. The 4 train was held at Bowling Green, then proceeded on the downtown tracks to Brooklyn Bridge, where it terminated, giving a good view of what I believe are the abandoned platforms. And then I switched across the platform to a #5 train, which went around the loop and proceeded locally.
You rode around the City Hall Loop yesterday? They have been saying for some months that passengers cannot ride around the loop due to the mayor's fears of terrorism. I am very surprised to hear about this - were any other passengers in the car with you?
The entire uptown 5 train to be precise.
I rode around the City Hall loop Saturday night on the 4 when it was running in two sections meeting at Brooklyn Bridge. The 4 from Brooklyn terminated at the uptown express platform. The 4 from uptown went straight through the City Hall loop and let passengers off at the uptown local platform.
This is very Suprising. One day they tell us No one rides and kick all off before entering the Loop. The next day they run a Genaral Order and say all can ride. Know I'm even confuse about this situation.
Since 6 trains are prone to being held in the loop, you can't ride them around, because you might have enough time to leave the train. In th ecase of a GO, the train will not be held in the loop, you can't get off and so no problem.
Wow! The power of NYC Transit. I can see it now at a City Hall meeting ....
MTA: "Terrorist threat? Fuddlebug! We have trains to run and a general order to implement. The trains must run and construction must proceed without too much inconvenience."
City Hall: "Well, uh, OK. But we are placing armed police at the ends of the station as a precautionary measure .... "
Ride around the Loop on the 5 train this weekend because of a GO. I love it!
I wonder if the policeman's token booth is still on the City Hall platform ..... did you guys see it?
--Mark
I wonder if the policeman's token booth is still on the City Hall platform ..... did you guys see it?
I did see a lit booth sitting on the platform. Is that what that was? What's it for?
That's where the Cop sits and watches the train's go by. In case the Conductors don't do their job and clear the trains and someone sneaks on board. In case they jump off on the City Hall Platform, the Police Officer, carfuly minding the boring procession of passing trains will stop the would be mad bomber from blowing up Sir Rudy et al.
I mean when we were allowed to ride around the Loop, there was a cop in that booth.
Maybe since they just issued a new GO to once agian but City Hall Station tracks into revenue service, they took the cop out. Makes perfect Rudy Sense.
The booth is still there. No one has been in it the two times in the past two months that I've gone around.
But no one has told me why they are doing it.
Maybe Rudy has hired a few behemoth bodyguards for around-the-clock peace of mind. Hopefully, passengers, er, customers will be allowed around the loop the next time I'm in the city.
Of course, what may have actually happened is that world-wide terrorists were polled and all said Rudy isn't worth the effort.
"paranoia strikes deep; into the heart it will creep."
(minor amendment)
Still relevant today as it was 32 years ago...
"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man comes and takes you away"
by Stephen Stills, (C) 1966 4-Star/Cotillion/Gold Hill Music BMI
In nearby New Rochelle there are some trolley poles on Main Street (Rt. 1) in the downtown area. They are south of the Main Street/Hugenot Street divide. I believe New Rochelle was part of the 3rd Ave railway system.
Staten Island Railway
Implementation of 3 PM Express Trains at 450PM ,616PM,631 PM
St George Ferry
Great Kills
Eliingville
Annadale
Huguenot
Prince's Ba
Pleasnt Plains
Richmond Valley
Nassau
Atlantic
Tottenville
I have noticed on some elevater lines. Namelly the J-line headed along Fulton st, had a middle track at one time. My question is why have a middle express track up to broadway junction, and then eliminate it. Because there was a track there at one time I can see the rivet holes from the old beams. I also noticed the livonia line (IRT) had an express track at one time. Or maybe neither line had one, or was schedueld to have an express track. Can someone Please help me on this one. Thank you.
Some lines, including the ones you mentioned had provisions for a trhird track in the structure but never actually had a track installed. The stretch of the Jamaica line along Fulton St. was designed for only two tracks and never was upgraded.
Also the Fulton St Jamaica line is too old to support an additional track.
If so many people were not happy with the old El's, why did the IRT/BMT build elevated ROW's? Example, 4 train Jerome Ave. Or Roosevelt Ave a.k.a 7 train?
Those areas were sparcely populated when the lines were built back in the period from 1908-1928, so there were few people to complain.
... and it's cheaper.
--Mark
Saturday I rode the F trying to see if I get a closer look at the lower level of Bergen. Failed attempt. I took the R to 9ST. I thought that the F was still express, So I went on the Coney Island platform. There was a Manhattan bound F pulling in. I couldnt get run over in time, ( I wished I did). A Coney Island bound F came and I took it down to Church. At 7th and Church there were 2 2 car sets of R40's in the station. Anybody know why there were there? Anyway, I wish I had taken that Manhattan bound F, because between Smith-9 and Bergen it took us about 40 minutes. Good Luck F train riders!!! What were the R40's doing at 7th and Church? Will there be a new service along the Culver line?
[At 7th and Church there were 2 2 car sets of R40's in the station. Anybody know why there were there?]
They were probably R-42s, and they were probably 4-car sets. NYCT is testing Communications-Based Train Control (CBTC), which will be installed on the Canarsie Line (the R-143s were ordered to provide L train service and they will be equipped to work with CBTC). The equipment is being tested on the F express tracks between Church and Seventh Avenues because they're out of the way.
CBTC allows trains to operate faster, and closer together, because every train knows where it is and what's in front of it. The current fixed-block signal system assumes that the lead train is at the back of a signal block and that the following train is at the front of the previous signal block. For safety, there must be a minimum of 2 blocks between trains (a block on the BMT-IND is usually at least 250-300 feet). Under CBTC, trains can operate as closely as 25 feet apart.
David
"For safety, there must be a minimum of 2 blocks between trains (a block on the BMT-IND is usually at least 250-300 feet). Under CBTC, trains can operate as closely as 25 feet apart."
I think that you might be taking something out of context. Under CBTC, the position of any train can determined within 10 feet on straight track and within 25 feet on curves. This does not mean that trains will be able to operate 25 feet apart. While the distance between trains can be reduced and speed increased, I don't believe that given the 3.2 MPH/Sec. decelleration rate of the standard NYCT car, this will be practical or possible.
Steve,
The following is from the Canarsie Line Signal Modernization contract (S-32701), dated November 3, 1997. Admittedly, some of it might be out of date, but it's what I worked from when I said that trains could operate as closely as 25 feet apart.
"7. A CBTC train in ATO mode shall be capable of closing to within 10 feet of a home signal or a bump post location.
8. A CBTC train in ATO mode shall be capable of closing to within 25 feet of other obstructions which include: an equipped train ahead; a track circuit occupied by an unequipped train, a broken rail, or a failed track circuit; a CBTC traffic reversal point; a track section blocked from the ATS system.
9. A CBTC train in ATPM mode shall be able to close up to within 10 feet of a home signal or bump post, and 25 feet of other obstructions, and then close up to the limit of the movement authority at less than 5 mph."
Also, according to these contract documents, the full service braking rate of the R-143 class (and retrofitted R-42s, which I don't think will be happening now that the R-143 order has been increased from 100 cars to 212) is supposed to be 3 mph per second. Has this changed?
I suppose we are talking about points of interpretation. Closing to within 25 feet or 10 feet of an object or another train is not the same as operating behing another train (at speed). I believe that I have the same set of documents and it's strange how it can be interpretted so differently.
Steve,
You're right. I should not have implied that trains would be running 25 feet apart in regular service, although the CBTC system will be designed to let them close to within 25 feet of each other.
We actually interpreted the contract the same way; I was just lousy at stating the case.
I meant R42. Pardon me for my mistake here.
I saw the two sets of R42's as well, they were the CBTC that is Steve pointed out.
It took over a half hour for us to go from 4th Ave to Jay. Held at each station and at a signal ourside Carroll.
This AM (Tue) F's were stopping a Bergan in both directions.
So why has the PATH system never been incorporated into
the rest of the subway system? Seems to me that it would
make perfect sense to be included as a regular subway
line (the P perhaps?) on The Map.
But I suppose there's politics involved.
It goes to NJ ... the entire TA system is within NYC.
That doesn't make it right, just that it's the way it is.
Another idea would be to transfer it from PATH to MTA, that would be a first step to make it more friendly, e.g. LI Bus, MetroNorth, LIRR.
Mr t__:^)
How about "MTA New York and New Jersey" ;-)
'MTA Hudson Tubes'
I like the historical name :)
-Hank
Well yeah, but the MTA already operates Metro-North,
and that isn't entirely within New York.
Seems to me I should be able to get a free transfer
to Hoboken....
Perhaps PATH is more incorporated with the NYCT than you realize. While we share no common trackage we do share other vital operations. For more than 5 years now, NYCT, LIRR, MNRR, PATH and others have been buying parts and material as a common entity. In addition, many of these same properties will be linked soon by a single computer system.
When you think about it, shared trackage would present large headaches for the NYCT. If NYCT tracks were linked with PATH you'd have to deal with the following:
1. FRA regulation
2. Invalid labor contracts for train operators and conductors
3. Train Operators would no longer be qualified to operate trains
4. A signal system that does meet federal standards
yada-yada-yada
Very interesting, i.e. that PATH is "me too" on stuff that the MTA (TA, SIRT, LI Bus, LIRR, MetroNorth) is buying. I thought the PATH folks were like the French, i.e. they wanted to do it their own way.
FYI, NYC-DOT does it also ... can you say Cubic, RTS, Orion. For DOT many times they me too on the SAME order.
Mr t__:^)
Well PATH's entire system is FRA Compliant, Grap Irons and such.
On the SIRT the cars windows are FRA Type II, I don't ever see those sitckers on the R44's in the subway.
I've also heard that PATH is the true 6th Ave subway.. :-p
If you want to get technical the Hudson & Manhattan Tubes was the "first" 6th Avenue subway.
All NYCT cars have FRA Type II glass.
So when the 63rd Street tunnel connection is finally
made to Queens Plaza (sometime in the year 2017 perhaps)
what then? Where will the B and Q go? Will they end
at Queens Plaza? Go out to Jamaica? Local or express?
Or is there a new line planned (Northern Boulevard?)
The 63st connection will NOT go to Queens Plaza, it wll connect just west of the 36st station. Trains using 63st will bypass Queens Plaza completely.
-Hank
With the 63rd Street Line only stopping at the busy hub that is 21st/Queensbridge, imagine how much worse the congestion is going to get at Roosevelt Avenue. In fact I forsee many local bpratrons who used to take Southbound R and G service to Queens Plaza and change to the Expresses at Queens Plaza will now take Northbound trains and change at Roosevelt. It should be fun, the 7 crowd, the feeder bus bunch, the folks from Woodhaven Blvd. (including the Lefrak City park and riders) where there should be an express stop, should be fun especually witht he narrow south end of the Mahhattan-bound platform.
Since I am a reverse commuter in a sense (I need to go from Kings Hwy D/Q to Queens Plaza or Queensboro Plaza but prefer the 1st) I also wonder if it might be faster to walk from 36th street if the Q runs express Brooklyn/Manhattan and then 63rd tunnel. I sometimes walked to 21st for the Q, but it had to be nice weather, for a one seat ride home.
Actually, more people change from the E, F to the G, R in Queens Plaza in the morning than people on the G, R to the E, F. And, not all trains will go through the 63 St tunnel, some will continue to Queens Plaza, so what are you still concerning about?
That is why there will be local trains (in Queens) running into the 63rd St. tunnel, so people will not need to backtrack. Also, once 21st St. station is no longer a dead end, I expect it will get a lot busier.
My mistake.
So what's the latest word on when I can expect those
B's and Q's to be rolling into Forest Hills?
Does anybody have any info on the track assignments at the Atlantic Avenue - BWAY Junction complex in ENY? Specifically, I was wondering what the track assignments may have been for Fulton, 14th St and Canarsie trains at the station during the complex's heyday. I know what the track arrangements were but were not sure what tracks were used for what routes, especially the center platform tracks.
The center tracks were the Fulton St line.
I was just talking to an L train motorman on my way to work this morning about the El structure. He said that NYCT is currently in the process of preliminary work on removing the unused (old Fulton St. line) parts of the junction steelwork.
One of the things that has occured in the past few months there is the detour of the southbound L just past B'way Junction onto the express tracks at the Atlantic Ave. station. There appears to be some track work in progress (third rail removed and obstructions at the crossovers). After Atlantic the train is routed back on the normal southbound track. Apparently this is related to the forthcoming demolition.
I had heard that there was some thought of demolishing much of the complex and consolidating the Canarsie line to 2 tracks and a connection to ENY yard. Are they planning on using the Snediker Ave branch or the Van Sindern branch as the structure. Its funny that the Snediker branch was once the original routing of the combined Fulton/Canarsie prior to the rebuilding of the Junction around 1917 and now they will go to one branch again. There will certainly be a great deal of Transit history lost when they rebuild the junction. With any luck I will get to NY to take a look at the complex before they demolish it.
I understand they wish to retain the Van Sinderen side of the A.A. station and demolish the remainder. The flyover/connection to the Broadway line will remain. So far as I have heard, nothing is firm yet, merely under discussion.
Wayne
The ERA Bulletin had a diagram of the proposed layout. it is just two tracks and one island platform. They should have at least left the two platforms, and 2 middle tracks, so you could still turn trains there.
and moved the northbound track to where the 3rd middle track is.
Yes, I realize the center tracks were for the Fulton St Line. However, I am some what unsure of how each track was assigned. There are 6 tracks at the Atlantic Ave station. If we call the western most track as track 1 and track 6 as the eastern most track I think I know at least 4 of the assignments:
Track 1: Canarsie Southbound
Track 2: Fulton Local to Queens
Track 3: ?
Track 4: ?
Track 5: Canarsie Northbound
Track 6: Fulton to Sands St, Fulton Ferry, or Park Row.
Track 3 ultimately end east of Hinsdale Ave and tracks 4 and 6 join west of Hindsdale. Eventually there are 2 tracks on the eastern portion of the Fulton line on Pitkin. The 4 tracks that turn west from the North side of Atlantic Ave become 3 before Rockaway Ave. Also, some trains from the Fulton line conected to the Bway line at BWAY junction and some may have connected to the 14th St line. There also, presumably was express service on the Fulton line west of Atlantic. Any comments on how tracks 3 and 4 were used at Atlantic.
Thats Hinsdale Street!!!!! And that whole complex looks confusing. Right now the Canarsie bound L runs on the "express" track or as you say it, track 2. When I return to the city, I will take the 2 stop ride up there and analyze it some more.
From West to east, (1)P1, (2)K1,(3) K3, (4) K4,(5) P2, (6) removed track on eastern end.
P1, K1 and P2 you got right. K2 was the express, K4 was the Manhattan bound local, and the easternmost track joined up with J2A, which is the northbound connector between Canarsie and the Broadawy line (Eastern Pkway J/Z station)-- the track used by the old K or 14 Bway/Bklyn local.
Does anyone know why they installed a center platform at the end of Marcy Av station? Is it temporary or permanent and what will it be used for. The platform is built over existing center track and the track itself it blocked off about 200' before the platform. If you look under the platform you can see signals that used to be there laying down and disconnected. Are there any new plans for lay-ups that they used to have at Marcy Av's center track?
Thanks
Operating instructions have not come out yet, and much more work needs to be done. I have not seen the finished plans. That temporary platform will be used when the M terminates at Marcy Ave. once the Willy B closes. The trailer will be the dispatchers office. With this island platform crowd control & flow will be more manageable and transfer across the platform to the next leaving train will be possible. Once the last train to Manhattan leaves Marcy Ave., a ramp will be put over the Manhattan bound track (J2) to the Manhattan bound platform at the iron maiden exit gate. Go down those stairs, and you will be across the street from the bus terminal where passengers can change to the B39 WillyB bus.
Bill--
If what you say is correct, then the M will cross over to the Queens-bound track to reverse and return to Metropolitan Avenue.
I thought they were planning to run the M's on the regular tracks, go a short bit beyond Marcy, and turn trains back, using the area beyond Marcy (approaching the bridge) for layups.
Keep us apprised if you hear any more details.
Michael
There is no crossover beyond Marcy Ave. All M layups will be at Fresh Pond Yard; all J/Z layups except 2 will be a ENYD. Those 2 are on the tail tracks just beyond Parsons/Archer station. All switches are between Marcy Ave. & Hewes St. Trains will make the same move to relay (change direction) as they would do when single track operation is in effect on the WillyB. If a Manhattan bound train should relay on the Queens bound track: immediately leaving Hewes it will cross to the center track and before the temporary dispatcher office/trailer will cross to the Queens bound track, relay, go back to Queens. To relay on the Manhattan bound track: upon changing ends at Marcy, cross to the middle track past the trailer, then cross to the Queens bound local track right before Hewes.
I am shortly to come into possession of several old (1940's and 1950's) maps, and a 1964 World's Fair subway map. What would be the implications of scanning these items and posting them on the site? I don't believe there would be a copyright issue due to the age of the items involved, they are public documents that (were)available free to all takers, and it is the best method of preserving them for veiw without unfolding them repeatedly.
-Hank
Do any of your maps include BMT number code listings? I have been told that they were included on maps at one time or another, but I've never seen such a map.
The 1964 World's Fair map has been scanned on Joe Korman's website, I believe.
BMT maps from the 1930s (including the World's Fair map) had the full set of numbers by route, with letters added for different services. I don't have one handy right now, but as I recall 1a. was Brighton Local service via the Tunnel, 1b. was Brighton Express, and so on. Only the three rush-hour-only specials didn't have numbers in their descriptions. The BMT also tried for at least the decade of the 1930s, including on those maps, to get people to use 'L' (as in Chicago) for 'El,' but it doesn't seem ever to have caught on. Maybe if the IRT had agreed to do it it might become New York usage.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Does anybody know of GRS vital relay failures causing relays to stay in the picked or energized position falsely? Let me know.
Many of the GRS "B" style vital relays were made with an indicating
pointer. The TA removed them because they felt that the pointer may
have been jamming against the plastic outer cover and causing the
relay to stick up.
This isn't the problem. No indicators on WMATA.
Hi..no we have not had that problem, however I DID copy the Washington Post account and faxed it off to our Train Control Engineering Department with some questions attached...it stirred up a large torrent of questions and telephone calls to me (I do work on the Vital components of both the Train Control system and the vehicle ATC sysyem) about those relays and the Westinghouse PD-1 and PT250 types of relays. In the end a few calls to Rochester (GRS) and WMATA developed the following info: At some time WMATA needed to have the relays serviced/rebuilt; they sent them to GRS. Apparently over time the price for this rose enough so that WMATA put it out for bid; and it was low bid won. Somehow a check was missed and someone somewhere during the rebuild removed non-magnetic attaching hardware and replaced it with standard hardware (read magnetizable). Over time the fields from the coil resulted in the hardware being magnetized and the relays drop-time becoming slower; eventually resulting in a slow drop time relay, which did not allow the speed command to be gated through right away when the relay dropped (coil deenergized). Hence a higher speed command could "hang" for a period until the amount of residual magnetism was reduced enough for the relay to complete it's "drop". Apparently not all the relays were incorrectly re-hardwared; which is why WMATA will have go thru them all; and correct the defective ones. Apparently GRS did have a maintenance bulletin out permitting the hardware change from brass; but onl to very high grade stainless steel which is NOT magnetic. This is the information we have managed to get; all the relays were pre 1986.
It's stuff like this that gets the juices flowing and brings out the ABSOLUTE necessity to check, recheck and check again..and to follow all procedures to the letter..so I tell my folks. Oh yes and Q.A. is VERY IMPORTANT!
Was this response written by The Great Frank T. Oklesson now in LA? If so, I replaced you at PB/T in April of 1987.
Try to E-Mail me.
I have seen train crew badges (these were the tin badges used in the 1950s-early 1960s) that say:
New York City Transit System
Motorman (punched out letters)
Badge Number (punched out numbers)
IRT Division as well as BMT Division
Was there one for the IND Division?
I have an identical badge that says "Conductor" but no division.
Can anyone clarify this for me.
This may not answer your posted question, but when I was on vacation in NYC last year, the Transit Museum in Brooklyn had a big bucket full of badges for sale with different employee numbers... also a few more well kept badges at higher prices appeared in locked display cabinets.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
.
In today's Daily News a column by State Sen. Goodman (R-Manhattan) states an argument in favor of completing the Second Ave. line. At least he noticed---but is there anyone against building it? The need is rather obvious. Too bad the machinery to set it in motion is so slow.
The City Must Have a 2nd Ave. Subway
Is there anyone against building the 2nd Ave subway? Well, I could imagine the small business owners along 2nd Ave would be mighty upset if the "2nd Ave Washboard" were to come up again, block access to their businesses, etc, like what happened in the '70s. Tunnelling under everything would not inflict "pain" and "loss" on them, but it would make the project much more expensive than "cut and cover" ....
--Mark
(Who is against the 2nd Avenue Line?) Anyone with an alternative use for the money. Have your heard the hospitals braying for more Medicaid cash lately, even though we spend 2 1/2 times anyone else on Medicaid? How about the schools, where we traditionally spend less? What about tax breaks? What about the construction companies and unions, who want to charge so much money for 63rd to 125th that it should be enough to build the whole line. What about Long Islanders, who want to soak up any and all transport money for the LIRR to GCT connection? How about the MTA, which wants to use my tax dollars to build a new tunnel for New Jersey commuters, while allowing the Manattan Bridge to stagger on toward death?
ITS ABOUT MONEY. NO SENSIBLE PERSON COULD SAY ITS A BAD IDEA.
Larry, I have to agree with you about the hospitals, and as far as another tunnel from New Jersey is concerned, raise fares slightly on NJT and raise tolls SIGNIFICANTLY on the lower Hudson River crossings, from the Tappan Zee on down - double them at least - to pay for it. But the schools are another issue - I won't get into the politics of New York education since I don't know the details, but suffice it to say that without education we won't need any transportation at all because there won't be anyone able to do any of the work that brings people to New York. And the LIRR/GCT connection is needed as well, and will help to justify the Second Avenue line in the minds of those who have to fund it. (I know, it's justified without that, but not everyone sees it as we do.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ride NJT and would support a fare increase if and only if we got better service and longer service. We need 24 hour service on the Northeast Corridor-even if some smaller stops are skipped and we need half hour service on weekends and to run larter at night befroe it goes hourly. I'd also support an increase if we had cleaner trains and thay ran on time. I'd also support an increase if NJT stopped building "Marble monuments" (garages) and started buying new cars and buses and keeping what they do have in running order. I am a taxpayer and would support a tax surcharge to pay for new cars and the second tunnel to NYC.
To Subway-Butt
I agree for better service on the Northeast Corridor. NJT should have never instituted mid-town direct until it could take care of what it already had. What's going to happen with the Secaucas transfer and the extra airport stop. The new Hamilton station has added to ridership according to some conductors I know. I ride with a scanner and have heard motormen radioing ahead for police to be on the Newark platform for crowd control because trains leave New York overcrowded. I hope your station isn't Metropark. That mistake of a new parking deck plus no road improvements in the area has driven too many people to shouting matches. Woodbridge police don't even try to control traffic because there's no where to send it. Raise the fares. No. I believe we still pay more per mile than LIRR riders and that's with no increase in eight years.
Several comments:
first- Yes, it is MetroPark and I agree with the garage problem. That is why I said Marble Monumen